When does discipline cross the line?
Some parents from a south Fulton charter school withdrew their kids after accusing teachers of “excessive punishment.”
The parents say teachers at KIPP South Fulton Academy were wrong to separate their kids from other students during class and lunch. They said students were made to sit on the floor and one girl urinated on herself because she was not allowed to use the restroom immediately.
School leaders dispute parents’ version of the story. They said no students were mistreated and that the students were disciplined after disrupting class for several days.
Leaders from the middle school in East Point said they should have told parents their kids were in trouble, but refused to remove the teachers involved. The principal said the school should have done a better job explaining expectations for student conduct.
Without knowing all the details, it’s hard to tell if teachers or parents overreacted to the situation.
But it does raise some interesting questions. At what point should parents be told their children got in trouble and will be disciplined? When does that punishment become excessive?
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71 comments Add your comment
DB
March 23rd, 2009
9:21 am
At what point should parents be told their children got in trouble and will be disciplined? Parents shouldn’t be surprised that their child will be disciplined if they step out of line. Having said that, as a parent, I’d expect to be notified if the “crime” was egregious enough to warrant discipline of special circumstances — only because if my kid was acting up at school enough to warrant punishment, they’d know that whatever happened to them at school would be spring break compared to what they’d get when they got home.
I think it’s important to note that KIPP is a middle-school charter school — the middle school years are pretty harrowing. However, any parent who says that they don’t know what the expectations are are either lazy or illiterate, because the school’s handbook has 13 pages of excrutiating detail regarding behavioral expectations, a complicated rewards/punishment system, and over three pages of charts of incidents that will trigger in-school suspension. It’s a charter school with a great deal of emphasis on personal responsibility.
Personally, I think the principal’s statement that “the school should have done a better job explaining expectations for student conduct” is pretty weak. Why is it such a stretch for kids and parents to know that if you act up in class to the point where you have to be removed, then all hell is going to break loose? It’s a pretty simple concept: Sit down and shut up. Do what the teacher tells you. Do your work. Let the other kids do their work. Why is that so hard to grasp? Schools are not democracies — they are benign dictatorships.
VOICE
March 23rd, 2009
10:22 am
DB, I agree. Parents and students are not held accountable to the extent that they should. Whose responsibility is it to notify the parent when disciplinary action is taken at school? Rightly, it should be the student’s responsibility. Of course, many will not tell their parents, but that should be their problem. A call or letter by the administrator and/or teacher is a mere professional “courtesy”, not a responsibility. Furthermore, parents should initiate routine checks with the school to inquire about the progress of their children.
It’s past time for parents and students to uphold their respective parts in keeping our schools orderly and safe. Disruptive students should be removed from the class immediately. Top priority should be given to the protection of the learnung environment. It’s rather bizarre to think that our schools are the only public place where we allow such disruptive behavior. Removal of the student is not excessive punishment, it’s the same action that would be taken at any other public place.
jim d
March 23rd, 2009
11:32 am
I’d say the question really is why parents were not notified? Not why the teacher wasn’t removed.
Here’s the thing, I read costantly on these blogs that parents are failing, yet when children act out at schools it appears parents are not informed. So, how are parents to do a better job if they are not aware of the problem? Communications between parents and the school is paramount to teachers having any kind of classroom control.
You can take some of the best behaved students and place then in a disruptive classroom and the mob mentallity will take over even their self control. Bottom line here? I guess I fail to understand why the school did not address the issue with parents before it got out of hand, most of the parents I know would have dealt with their children with appropriate means. Then too, consider these are parents of children attending a charter school and one would therefore believe a bit more involved with their childrens education than those one might find in a regular school.
Sounds to me like someone in admin. may have dropped the ball on this one.
catlady
March 23rd, 2009
11:32 am
Parents were not there. Teachers were. End of story.
If your child continues to act up in school, you should expect there to be intense consequences, even if you don’t impose them. It is really, at this age, between the child and the school. They are old enough, and sentient enough, to do as they are required to do.
These parents are doing more to hurt their kids than they can imagine, and my disgust is with the school for in any way apologizing.
Let the parents pull the kids out and send them back to their neighborhood schools. Let the kids who will behave learn.
Next thing you know there will be a lawsuit or outside groups will start yelling discrimination.
Boo hoo. Behave yourself and this won’t happen. It is as simple as that.
jim d
March 23rd, 2009
11:40 am
Cat,
according to the article the students actions were accumulative over “several days”. I still question why parents were not informed. The article fails to mention if the teacher followed protocol by informing the administartion of the issues or if the admin. just failed to support the teacher early on. Certainly they did after the fact (and I commend them for that), but one must question their actions early on.
reality2
March 23rd, 2009
11:51 am
cat,
I hope our plices will not use the same logic when they are prosecuting the criminals – police officers’ words are always correct because they were there??? That’s such a ridiculous notion. By the way, STUDENTS were there, too.
If teachers ask something stupid, then students have every right to refuse or do something else. Some teachers can’t accept anything other than what s/he thinks is the correct answers. They can’t make sense of alternative solutions because of their lack of content knowledge. Some “disruptions” are because students can’t make sense of what teachers are saying.
I wonder if KIPP manual includes the refusal to let students go to bathroom as an allowable punishment – it sure does not sound like it.
Reality2
March 23rd, 2009
11:52 am
cat,
I hope our plices will not use the same logic when they are prosecuting the criminals – police officers’ words are always correct because they were there??? That’s such a ridiculous notion. By the way, STUDENTS were there, too.
If teachers ask something stupid, then students have every right to refuse or do something else. Some teachers can’t accept anything other than what s/he thinks is the correct answers. They can’t make sense of alternative solutions because of their lack of content knowledge. Some “disruptions” are because students can’t make sense of what teachers are saying.
I wonder if KIPP manual includes the refusal to let students go to bathroom as an allowable punishment – it sure does not sound like it.
Clueless
March 23rd, 2009
11:55 am
I don’t see how separating disruptive students from the others is cruel or unusual, and I don’t think that making students sit on the floor is terrible either. I see students sitting on the floor of their own free will before and after school, as well as during lunch and recess.
Keep it up KIPP!
March 23rd, 2009
11:57 am
Finally, a school that gets it. Don’t back down! Don’t kowtow to the spineless, excuse making portion of our society that has no clue! Keep up the good work!
If you don’t have discipline, you don’t have education, no two ways about it. KIPP gets this; don’t let the naysayers, who could teach a class without donning a pair of Depends, bring you down. Stick to your guns.
Reality 2
March 23rd, 2009
12:15 pm
cat,
I sure hope police officers are allowed to use the same argument. We know, unfortunately, that just because police officers were there doesn’t mean that their stories are complete or even true. What makes teachers any different? Besides, STUDENTS were there, also.
I wonder if KIPP manual states that refusing to let students to go to bathroom is an appropriate punishment.
When schools/teachers ask students to do something stupid, students should have every right to refuse. Too often teachers think students are “disrupting” their lessons because they have different ideas — some teachers just don’t have enough content knowledge to judge whether or not students’ ideas are valid, and if not, how to help them realize their thinking may be flawed. Instead, they just tell kids to “shut up and sit down.” I hope more students (and parents) will refuse to accept such a behavior from teachers.
Reality
March 23rd, 2009
12:15 pm
Too many parents don’t even discipline their own offspring. Now, they don’t want schools to, either…. go figure.
Get a clue! If your child cannot behave, it is your own darn fault. You should teach your own children how to behave and to show respect for others. If you have failed in this mission, are you REALLY shocked that your child gets into troule at school?
Schools don’t have time to teach such manners because the there is too much content to teach. When schools spend time on behavior issues, it is just not good all the way around. I would prefer for schools to just pick up the phone and call for that brat to be taken away from school. Let the “bad” parents deal with their own “bad” kids.
jim d
March 23rd, 2009
12:17 pm
Keep it up KIPP,
“If you don’t have discipline, you don’t have education”
I’ll take it one step further. If you don’t have communications you don’t have education
jim d
March 23rd, 2009
12:19 pm
Reality,
Do we understand the concept of mob mentallity?
I dare say you could take some of the best behaved students in the world and get them acting out in a mob of disruptive students.
jim d
March 23rd, 2009
12:29 pm
An inuiring mind can’t help but wonder why it took “several days” of disruption for anything to come down and why it wasn’t handled a bit quicker?
Wally
March 23rd, 2009
12:52 pm
We are now paying through the nose for the ant-intellectualism, prohibition and drug wars in which the electorate has immersed itself over the last couple of decades. Students en masse, even some in charter schools, consider themselves on one side, and teachers and administrators on the other. And I will never forget the comment of a journalist years ago: “This is now a drug culture, and everybody lies.” Anyone who takes those children’s stories at face value needs to be sentenced to a week or two observing what goes on in our schools. I have friends and family in education. In instance after instance I have heard tell of students caught red handed in bald face lies to parents and authorities. And I have also witnessed parents backing their children again and again, despite long histories of lying, so ingrained is the public disdain for “guvment.” Talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy. Thanks, Ronald.
Readers are probably asking themselves how I can be so certain about who is lying. Let me tell you, in the county in which I live, you have to be a saint to continue to work in the public school setting. The chaff gets weeded out literally within weeks.
high school teacher
March 23rd, 2009
1:00 pm
I find it interesting that the word “immediately” is used in combination with the phrase “she was not allowed to use the restroom.” Was it at the beginning of class? Did the child have the opportunity to go between class change and not use that opportunity? Did the child have a history of asking to go to the bathroom when she really didn’t go? Did the teacher say, “Wait 5 minutes?” There is more to the story there than what is being reported here. Many times I will tell a child to wait a few minutes before I allow them to go to the restroom. Keep in mind that I teach high school and that students have time to go during class change. I have seen high school students take advantage of a situation of this sort.
V for Vendetta
March 23rd, 2009
1:03 pm
Reality 2, been hugging any trees lately? I don’t know many teachers who are scared of the “different” ideas students have. That’s just about the dumbest excuse for bad behavior I’ve heard yet.
dingis magee
March 23rd, 2009
1:23 pm
Bad behaviour starts at home. Parents want to be popular with their kids and be their friend instead of being parents and being very clear about what is misbehaviour and what is not. Kids needing counseling, give me a break. Learn to behave and you will not have these problems. Yes, there are a million excuses and reasons why parents give that their students misbehave, but the biggest reason is that this misbehaviour is not dealt with at home. IT ALL STARTS WITH DISCIPLINE, THAT IS WHY MANY OF OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS TODAY AREN’T WORTH A DARN, THE KIDS RUN THE SCHOOLS, DO WHAT THEY WANT, INTIMIDATE THE TEACHERS AND ADMINISTRATORS, AND GRADUATE WITH A “COMPUTER” NOVA NET DIPLOMA AND CAN’T GET OUT OF A SHOWER OF RAIN….GOOD FOR YOU, KEEP THE DISCIPLINE UP, SOMEONE MIGHT ACTUALLY LEARN SOMETHING….
jim d
March 23rd, 2009
1:27 pm
HST,
As I understand there are several medical conditions that may lead to loss of bladder control in young ladies. They include things like urinary tract and bladder infections, constipation and/or side effects from certain medication.
It is not really unusal for women to experience both stress and urge incontinence at different times of their life. I believe to infer it may have been in spite may be a bit presumputious.
Fulton Teacher
March 23rd, 2009
1:41 pm
Although I’m a teacher, I see this a little differentl than some of you. First of all, if a child is repeatedly being disruptive, parents need to be notified. At least give them the opportunity to assist. After being a middle school teacher for 15 years, I can tell you that even the best raised kid will begin to act out during the middle school years. I experienced it with my own kids.
Secondly, I agree with High School Teacher about the circumstances regarding the restroom. However, if the child asked again, which we don’t know, she should’ve been allowed to go.
Honestly, I’ve seen some pretty mean-spirited teachers in recent years and I have begun to question what type of person the profession is attracting. I’ve actually had a teacher tell me that she tried her best to hurt a student’s feelings that she just didn’t like. This situation could’ve been handled a better by communicating with parents more.
catlady
March 23rd, 2009
1:46 pm
I don’t think a middle school should have to call home to tell on a kid who is disrupting class as long as the child is of average intelligence. If the child was five years old, I would feel differently. In our school ISS is frequently the same. You have continued misbehavior that disrupts class. You try several ways of dealing with it (documenting each time). When that doesn’t work, you isolate the child and send a report to the parents.
Most of our misbehaving kids hate being isolated from their friends. They get a lot of pleasure from the attention. They hate being in a situation where they cannot carry the class down the primrose path. We do have some repeat offenders but most of the kids find it quite joyless to have no interaction with their peers.
Re the bathroom, I don’t know that we can even begin to speculate. We have kids who claim to need to go every ten minutes. Some of the girls would have you think they need to change their sanitary supplies 4 weeks out of every month!
What would help misbehaving kids the most would be to keep them out of the papers, and for their parents to say, “I don’t care what–you stay out of trouble.” And then, if there are concerns, PRIVATELY go see the teacher about it, but don’t let your child know that you are questioning the teacher’s call. The “I’ll go down there and straighten those teachers out” does not help your child in the least to bring their behavior in line.
And if you don’t like what your charter school requires, consider transfering and see if you like the other place better.
high school teacher
March 23rd, 2009
1:52 pm
Sorry, jim d, didn’t mean to be presumptuous. I was pointing out that we don’t know the whole story, and to jump to conculsions about who is the guilty party is a bit presumptuous in and of itself. I was playing devil’s advocate for those who blame the teachers. I absolutely understand that the child may have had a legitimate problem. However, perhaps I am a bit jaded based on my personal experiences!
high school teacher
March 23rd, 2009
1:54 pm
If I double post, I am sorry. Jim d, I didn’t mean to be presumptuous. I was just playing devil’s advocate for those who automatically blame the teacher. The point is that we don’t know all of the facts and to place blame on either party is presumptuous in and of itself.
Dr. Craig Spinks
March 23rd, 2009
2:08 pm
Short of slamming a student in the back of his head with a textbook for failing to write his name on the top line of the Math paper(as Brother Hugh did to me at Aquinas High in Augusta in 1961), almost anything goes. My impression after more than 32 years in state-funded schools is that school board attorneys are too lazy, too “wussified”, or a combination thereof, to back our school boards as they must move to reassrt ADULT CONTROL over our public schools.
Dr. Craig Spinks
March 23rd, 2009
2:10 pm
CORRECTION: “reassert” in the penultimate line of my entry.
high school teacher
March 23rd, 2009
2:12 pm
for some reason my post keeps getting blocked.
high school teacher
March 23rd, 2009
2:14 pm
Okay, jim d, I had two eloquent posts about not meaning to be presumptuous, but for some reason they didn’t go through!
anyway, I was just saying that I was playing devil’s advocate to those who automatically blame the teachers, and that we don’t know the entire story, so it’s difficult to make any conclusions.
jim d
March 23rd, 2009
2:19 pm
HST,
yeah the new format sucks
jim d
March 23rd, 2009
2:21 pm
Doc,
Then too attorneys sometimes know when they can’t win a case.
All too often schools do screw up.
jim d
March 23rd, 2009
2:23 pm
doc,
sometimes attorneys know when they can’t win.
all too aften schools do screw up.
jim d
March 23rd, 2009
2:24 pm
I hate this new format!!
Well, I suppose it would be ok if it would just work!!(are u listening AJC?)
Reality 2
March 23rd, 2009
2:47 pm
Fulton Teacher,
I agree with your observation. You see some of those mean spirited teachers here as well.
V,
Teachers actually don’t really know what other teachers do because they don’t go observe them teach much. It’s actually non-teachers who do get to see MANY teachers, and thus able to make some generalizations based on observations, not just what other teachers tell you.
Scalia
March 23rd, 2009
2:51 pm
How does a school screw up? I have a student that is a constant disruption in my class. I call his father, he speaks to his son, and tells him to apologize. He apologizes, and then keeps acting up. What is a teacher supposed to do?
high school teacher
March 23rd, 2009
3:12 pm
last attempt to post this – jim d, didn’t mean to accuse the girl of wrong doing. just pointing out that we don’t know the whole story.
my other 3 posts were much more eloquent, but i don’t feel like typing it again.
Doret Ledford
March 23rd, 2009
3:22 pm
I am a children’s advocate, and I think that our parents today need more parenting. Our children are not properly taken care of and discipline is very poor. Children are allowed to do as they please and have not respect for parents and adults, and this is carried over into the schooll systems where no one is allowed to speak to the children without parents get offended. I think if the children are well disciplined, and many of them are, then they would not have to be discipline for misbehaving. I agree that children will misbehave and we as adults, whether it is our parents or teachers should have the right to reprimand them. I do not believe that any teacher will mistreat a child to the point of harming them. I remember when any adult was allowed to draw the line when a child gets out of hand. We want our children to be respected to have a good education, but we must do our parts. PARENTS AND ADULTS! START TRAINING THE CHILDREN FROM THEY ARE SMALL AND THEY WILL GROW INTO RESPECTABLE AND EDUCATED LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. Good luck!
Tony
March 23rd, 2009
3:55 pm
KIPP schools are not all they are cracked up to be, but the brouhaha over discipline is out of proportion. The school, all schools, have the right to isolate students from the general population if their behavior is disruptive to the school. It works better when schools let parents know immediately when there is a problem, which is what we do. I want parents to support the discipline measures that are taken to maintain appropriate classroom behavior. This is apparently where the KIPP school messed up. None of our schools should give in to the loud parents who object when their children are disciplined appropriately.
As for KIPP schools in general, it is time for the media to cut the crap about these schools and report the real facts. KIPP schools are notorious for high turnover. This distorts the reported results that come from KIPP schools as far as test scores go. But, this is a topic for another day. Do a little digging on KIPP schools before you fall for the hype.
Laura Diamond
March 23rd, 2009
4:16 pm
Sorry about the posting problems everyone. For some reason the spam filter was blocking many of you. I think I fixed it, but if you are having any more problems, please email me.
Fulton Teacher
March 23rd, 2009
4:22 pm
Catlady, parents deserve to know when their child is such a disruption that they’re being isolated for several days. You can’t complain that parents aren’t supportive, then decide that you don’t need to clue them in. Middle school kids are the most difficult to teach. They’ll always want to show off in front of their peers. I’ve had so many parents tell me how their child completely changed when they hit 6th grade. Then I experienced it myself! Yes there are poor parents, but there are many caring parents that want to know so that they can support you. If we were talking about one or two days I’d agree with you, but this went on over several days.
jim d
March 23rd, 2009
4:39 pm
HST,——–it was just the inference, point i was also making is there’s more to this story.
Scalia ——–How does a school screw up?
You gotta be Shi^^n me! Don’t make the assumption that School = teacher, then look at all the law suits that get settled out of court.
Doret—–” I do not believe that any teacher will mistreat a child to the point of harming them.
“Wake up and smell the coffee, while you are at it pick up a news paper.
Tony——”It works better when schools let parents know immediately when there is a problem”
AMEN!
Laura—-THANKS
Fulton Teach, —— “You can’t complain that parents aren’t supportive, then decide that you don’t need to clue them in”
Bless you
jim d
March 23rd, 2009
4:41 pm
Obviously Doret has never met or read one of our regular bloggers.
Pat
March 23rd, 2009
5:26 pm
If I had been disciplined in school, my parents would have made that just a walk in the park. They would not have questioned whether the teacher was too harsh or whether I deserved to be punished in that manner. They would have assumed that I deserved to be punished and would have continued the job when I got home. If my son acted up and got punished in school, the same applied. No, he didn’t act up in grade school, high school and college. He is now a vice-president of his firm. Coincidence? Hardly.
I think it is wonderful that the parents took the troublemakers out of the school. Now, if I was a parent near there, that would be the place I would send my kids. Normally, schools cannot expel the undisciplined. By taking them out of class, the stupid parents who beget stupid and disrespectful kids are solving the problem.
Gram
March 23rd, 2009
5:39 pm
My son got into trouble in elementary school quite often.(1980’s) Finally, the principal called and asked if it was ok to paddle him. I told him he had my full cooperation, and to “go for it”. He never acted up again!
Keep it up KIPP!
March 23rd, 2009
5:42 pm
Tony is right in that comparing the results KIPP gets to regular public schools is like comparing apples and oranges, due to the high turnover. I say don’t hate KIPP; let the public schools do what KIPP does.
Let’s notstop with saying buzzwords like differentiated instruction and actually do something different, like remove the students who are determined to disrupt learning at every turn. That would be real reform, not this bondoggle we are paying billions of dollars a year for.
catlady
March 23rd, 2009
6:05 pm
Mine got blocked–and it was so pithy, too! Dang!
Regarding teachers not knowing what other teachers do: Well, I do. I am a “push in” (not to be confused with push over). As a push in, I am in 8 teacher’s classes a day. Last year it was 7. So that is over half the teachers in our school. Don’t think the teachers don’t know what is going on!
On parent notification: No problem with notifying parents. But it should be the CHILD who notifies their parents that they are in trouble, first, IMHO. If your child is old enough to talk, and intelligent enough to state facts, that is.
I think if parents got the notifications they say they want, many would (and have) thrown up their hands and said, “Don’t be calling me anymore!”
Besides, shouldn’t MIDDLE SCHOOL students be able to take responsibility for their actions.
When our asst. principal calls parents, they frequently tell her they don’t agree with the punishment. She is always perplexed. They sign the handbook stating they are aware of the rules and consequences; so does the student. Unless they want to come to school and continuously monitor their child….
PappyHappy
March 23rd, 2009
6:20 pm
Perhaps it is time for some parents to take heed; teach and enforce manners and discipline at home; request information from the school if the child is misbehaving where the parent can reenforce discipline at home, and THANK THE SCHOOL FOR HAVING STANDARDS!!
pj
March 23rd, 2009
6:48 pm
based on most of these comments (many of which I agree with) I am surprised that 75% voted that the “punishment” was too harsh. Maybe that majority which doesn’t seem to be taking the time to comment is a slack about disciplining their children, and somehow expects a school to be able to operate without it. continuing the national trend of spoiled brats not accepting responsiblity for their behavior.
DeeMack
March 23rd, 2009
8:09 pm
First of all, if your kid comes home and says he is being yelled at 10 hours a day, SOMETHING IS WRONG! Now, I don’t agree with a kid being made to pee over herself and that should have been avoided. However, what this is called as far as being separated from the rest of group during lunch is “silent lunch”. My now young adult boys have been through this a time or to. If there were 9 kids in a group being disruptive, then you have to single them out. Most kids talk too much anyway. That is what they do. A teacher MUST have control of her class and that includes all children. For you all to think that a kid is going to tell their parents they were disruptive and got into trouble, I say laugh and laugh hard. If a teacher did not inform me of the disruptive behavior, I would have never known, and I was not one of those mamsy-pansy parents, either. I look at my sons, ages 23 and 19, and I say thank you God we made it through those school years!
Atl123
March 23rd, 2009
8:11 pm
To condense what I have read in the article (which in my opinion demonstrates that the AJC is really eschewing investigative journalism and going for the quick fix as far as reporting is concerned), the students were given timeout (i.e. told to sit in the back of the classroom) and NOT sent from the room, but still in the class to participate(this aspect of the “punishment” was not elaborated by the AJC) in the lesson or at the very least be there while the lesson was happening. The students were given seven days of “silent lunch” meaning that they were to eat their lunch in silence, not allowed to socialize -while their peers who were not being punished for disruptive or disrespectful behavior and were allowed to engage in normal lunchtime activity-. This story is a red herring. There was no undue punishment at the school. Of course parents are allowed to defend their children, but I’m reading reporting on the reactive behavior on the part of the parents (according to the AJC) and not much about discussion regarding WHY the students were being punished. Parents who have difficulty taking responsibility for their child’s behavior and don’t encourage their child to take responsibility for their behavior ( I’m not saying these parents do or don’t, I am making a point) might perhaps remember the “harsh” punishment that happened in back in their child’s school days when they may have to stand in front of a judge and say, “but your honor,I don’t understand, (my girl or boy) is such a good child.
C. B. Rae
March 23rd, 2009
8:37 pm
I happen to be a parent at this school and I am going to assume that those commenting here are not. So far bloggers have made great points… the one that sticks out the most is communication. For some reason schools today think that parents turn over all rights to their children from 8 am to 3pm. That is not the case. An sorry but teachers I am not buying the wolf ticket you are selling that when you call parents a majority of them do not respond or react to the problem..when they are notified. If a parent knows their child and knows what that child is capable of –and they should— then they know when their child is selling them a line..and when they are telling the truth. I am pass the blame stages at this point and think this whole thing could have been avoid had communication been better on all sides. Administrators, Board Members, and Parents are suppose to be working together to education the future generations instead all sides are divided and pointing fingers. This is foolish and counter productive. There is enough blame to go around. No child I don’t care how bad should face humiliation. And no Teacher should have to put up with disrespect. It is a two-way street. The one problem I have found with the KIPP method is that the assumption is always that because these kids are consider “lower income, minority ” then it is natural that they would be lacking and therefore incapable of behaving. Sorry but I don’t buy that. As someone else pointed out most of the children that attend charter school come with parents who are active in their child’s education. KIPP’s national presence is not about tough discipline and is suppose to be more about educating children so that they know they have just as much right to higher education as anyone else regardless of background. That message and mission appears to have gotten lost in this whole mess. The one thing I would like to see come out of all of this is more and better communication. There is a whole lot of us vs them going on and less open communication. As a parent we don’t have all the answers, but guess what teachers even with the teacher’s guide, neither do you.
Chris
March 23rd, 2009
8:49 pm
More of that good black parenting huh? The black parents should do a better job raising their kids. Of course, once something happens to their kids, it is NEVER the parents fault, as usual. Gee I wonder why so many blacks are not in school, in jail, etc.
MEB
March 23rd, 2009
8:56 pm
So much for personal responsibility….something most kids are no longer taught thanks in part to our nation’s response to, “low self-esteem” back in the 80’s and 90’s. Don’t discipline kids…you might hurt their feelings. Forget coping skills, mommy will make a phone call and take care of everything. Parents need to wake up….what is a minor nuisance at home becomes extremely disruptive in an environment where your child is one of many, i.e. school, team sports, camp, etc. Multiply your child’s needs/issues by 30 and then imagine yourself spending 6 or more hours a day trying to teach them something meaningful. Think about what you go through trying to get your child to help with chores and then imagine what it is like to teach algebra.
Parents- Want to know how your child is doing? Try having a conversation with them. Turn off the TV and Playstation! Help them with their homework. Ask them open-ended questions and teach them how to communicate with other people through conversation and body-language…not just a keyboard. If you don’t get the results you want on the first time, keep trying. Your kids need you and their teachers need you to help them reinforce the lessons from school.
I understand that children lie about things but if you really talk to them and get to know them, you should be able to pick up some cues….guilt, anger, happiness, sorrow, shame, joy…your kids are talking to you through their actions and expressions. Are you listening?
rhoho
March 23rd, 2009
10:11 pm
There is way too much rationalization going on by parents who think the school is at fault here. As a former middle school teacher who is still in education, I can tell you, without question, that if the children would just follow the rules none of this ever comes up. The teacher said she didn’t see the little girl raise her hand to ask to go to the restroom. The girl says she asked. I’ve got news for some of you: children lie. Mine do, yours do, we all did. Nobody had to teach us how. The parents who have pulled their children out don’t want to face the fact that little Johnny or Janice can’t cut it in an environment where they are held accountable for their actions and have to deal with the consequences of inappropriate behavior
Lee
March 23rd, 2009
10:54 pm
Much ado about very little. …and the only thing I read that caused me concern is the girl who allegedly was not allowed to use the restroom.
C. B. Rae
March 23rd, 2009
11:11 pm
I think the point is missed on all sides regarding this topic. This is about children misbehaving and the proper way to discipline. I mean if you took these same kids, made them lighter and stuck them in a school oh say..in Johns Creek and a teacher there suggested well how about we take away their desk and make them sit on the floor don’t notify their parents of the punishment and label them. I wonder if the comments would shift? Why is it okay for this group of children to be label not accountable for their actions where in a different part of the county given the same situation..parents would be lighting fire under the school board and mostly likely those involved would resign. Face it people..KIPP and the board treat the children of south fulton differently because they have labeled the children discipline problems from day one. Why does KIPP feel the need to have such a emphasis on discipline for lower income black children? A bratty kid, is a bratty kid black or white. Sorry but this “discipline” of young black children(all 5th graders by the way) is not preparing them for the real world, only the little box society has already labeled them to fit in.
Dr. Craig Spinks
March 24th, 2009
8:21 am
Jim D, sure school administrators SOMETIMES screw up things legal. But here in East Central Georgia, two of our public school systems have retained a law firm infamous for its phobia of courtrooms. When schools boards don’t have counsel willing to go to bat for them when their employees are right, how much backing can such boards provide to their administrators and their teachers? School system employees in the Richmond and Columbia county public school systems are scared to death of parents and students primarily because their boards, which are are represented by effete, pusillanimous counsel, are, too.
jim d
March 24th, 2009
9:06 am
Doc,
SOMETIMES??
google schools sued in georgia 2008 and you will get about 466,000 hits.
I may be in error, but seems to me that might be considered a bit more than SOME. But let me defend these law firms that represent school systems by saying they have no incentive to take matters to court–they are paid with tax dollars for doing nothing(a pretty sweet scam actually)and school systems also don’t really care because they have an open pocketbook (ours)
lra
March 24th, 2009
12:11 pm
I understand the dicipline issue although I don’t approve of it. But can the Administration please inform me of the Sexual Abuse case that occured, the Gang case, and the boy entering the school with a GUN? I know if off topic but I needed to get it off of my chest. Maybe someone in the Admistration @ KIPP is looking at this.
Tslick
March 24th, 2009
1:53 pm
After reading the article I was a bit confused as to why this was news. There are many more serious things happening in schools than a group of students being separated for disruptive behavior. Was this article more political than it appears??? Is the AJC hoping to add some negative press to Charter schools for some reason…I am not sure.
I have been an educator for close to 30 years, both high school and middle school, and I kept waiting for there to be something in the article that was newsworthy.
The article should have been about how parents OVERREACT and the effect that has on students, thus creating a bigger problem for schools.
While I don’t believe it to be true, my parents curtailed quite a few problems by sending us to school with the notion, “teachers are always right”. What message do you think these students that were withdrawn from KIPP will take with them to the next school…?
Stacey Hopkins
March 24th, 2009
3:37 pm
To answer the question, discipline goes too far when it falls under the category of it being illegal under the rule of law. In other words, if the United States of America or the State of Georgia says that I, as a parent can’t do it, neither can any educator or administrator.
For thse unfamiliar with the circumstances and the past problems with this particular school, I can see this being dismissed as just a few disgruntled ‘helicopter parents’ but there’s a lot more to this story and there’s quite a bit of blame that could be spread. But the main problem lies in the administration and the board, as they work in conjunction with each other. I should know, I’ve been with this school since its conception and have a 6th grader enrolled currently.
The presumption is being made that the administration and board is operating on honesty, integrity and professionalism and that hasn’t always been the case. I’m tha parent of five kids and well aware that they may not always tell the truth, but neither do adults. Ms. Kinney knows good and well that she was admonished for her actions during the infamous 5th grade field trip last year in which she was heard by me yelling at my child that she was a liar and needed to get out of her face and her first comment to me was that “she wouldn’t have said it if she knew there was a parent on the line”. So what exactly would or does she say around my child exactly?
Mr. Pryor just this week called a group of children “snakes in the grass and something that deserved to be flushed down the toilet”. Yeah, that’s change for you, alright…
Children being subjected to teachers turning the heat or air for extended periods…
Inaccurate reporting of grades…
Conflicts of interest with board members…
Questionable expenditures…
There’s a lot more then what’s being told…
jim d
March 24th, 2009
3:51 pm
t slick,
“What message do you think these students that were withdrawn from KIPP will take with them to the next school…?”
I would hope they would walk away with an understanding that teachers are NOT ALWAYS right, but are always the teacher. Don’t believe that? Talk in depth to just about any hs history teacher for about 10 minutes and if you have any knowledge of history you will see what i mean.
You guys that feel teachers are always right just piss me off!
Lee
March 24th, 2009
6:54 pm
Stacey Hopkins, after all the problems you cited, your child is still a student at Kipp because……..????
Tony
March 24th, 2009
8:56 pm
After pondering many of the statements made about situations of discipline, it seems to hurt people’s feelings when teachers call an action what it is. Lying, for instance, is an act of “not telling the truth.” Why is it so offensive for someone to confront a lie for what it is? When students disrupt class, they should be separated so the other students can go on learning. If this constitutes “humiliation” then so what? Don’t the other kids have a right to learn? We have strayed as a society when we, as parents, are unwilling to teach our children the difference from right and wrong. I am very lucky to be in the community that supports the school’s actions, but I am also lucky because the teachers work together with the parents through communication.
Dr. Craig Spinks
March 25th, 2009
3:56 am
Jim D, please don’t mistake Google “hits” for lawsuits. Of course, those school admins who regularly screw up things legal need to be helped to find somethings else to do. But I remain resolute in my belief that only through our local and state school boards’ taking tough stands through the actions of competent, courageous board attorneys can our society reassert ADULT CONTROL of our public schools BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE! And TOO LATE is coming on fast and strong!
Stacey Hopkins
March 25th, 2009
11:16 am
Lee,
My child is currently still attending KSFA because due to my child’s choice to remain until the end of the term. In my family, we don’t quit what we start and I respect her decision. She’s hurting, but she’s a tough, little cookie and wants to fight as SHE still believes in the possibility that the school can change and I have to respect that. She sees something worth staying for – for now.
There are other factors for me at play; I don’t have a wide range of choices and option open to me in this particular part of South Fulton. Of the choices I have in the public/charter system, the one of my preference has no opening and the other may bring less stress, but would place her in a school with an inferior curriculum to KIPP.
For many of us in South Fulton, it’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Your choices are often limited to not finding the best school for your child, but finding the best school you can live with.
Stacey Hopkins
March 25th, 2009
12:25 pm
Tony,
I can’t speak for all the parents, but most of us realize the need for discipline and have no problem for reasonable measures. The problem is not in that, but in the way the actions are sometimes carried out. They are done in a manner that may teach that it’s a consequence, but occasionally done in a manner that is humiliating, spiteful, and excessive. If the school wishes to operate as an alternative school, it should bill itself as one.
Kids do have a right to learn and adults have the duty and responsibility to teach them, but that doesn’t always translate into punishment. As a parent of five, I found out that the one-size-fits-all approach doesn’t work, as each of my children differ individually. What works for one, didn’t necessarily work for all and often I had to dig and see what was at the root of the problem instead of dealing with the symptoms. These are children who need to be taught, not adults who should know better.
If there’s a kid in trouble, there’s a reason behind it. There’s a line where as a parent, I have to take the reins as that’s my job and responsibility as a parent. For some parents, you have to show them how or perhaps do their job for them, but you have to know how to recognize the difference of which type of parent you’re dealing with, as we’re not all the same. You have to flexible to handle constant adjustments, that’s a part of raising children.
You touched upon a common problem that affects a lot of neighborhoods in South Fulton, lack of parental involvement, but I see a change in that phenomenon and many of the schools seem to have a problem adjusting to that. By open, transparent communication, knowing whom and what you’re dealing with and being willing to adjust and be open to change; it creates an environment where all parties can only get better and achieve their common and mutually beneficial goals. You are indeed lucky to live in a community where that’s recognized, but some of us aren’t as lucky…
Lying is wrong and shouldn’t be tolerated but for those dispensing judgment, one is expected to do so without hypocrisy.
Parent
March 26th, 2009
2:24 pm
I think it should be noted that the woman pictured with her son in the picture still has a son who is enrolled in the 7th grade at Kipp South Academy. How bad could the school really be if one son is still there, but the other son was withdrawn?
Denise Mullens Carter, Esq.
March 27th, 2009
4:46 pm
“CHARTER SCHOOL FACES WITHDRAWALS OVER PUNISHMENT”
Headlines such as this one highlight a community environment of lies and confusion and oh yes, sell newspapers in the short-run. Yet the publication of stories that are “Much Ado About Nothing” are more likely to result in the demise of the reputation of The Atlanta Journal and Constitution which faces greater challenges as part of a dying industry. In my opinion, the distribution of these types of stories is akin to “gaining the world while loosing one’s soul.”
Let’s get the facts straight. There were at least 3 investigations of this “Complaint”:
1) The External Investigator, The Georgia State Division of Youth and Family Services found no child neglect; 2) The Internal Investigator, Jondre Pryor, Principal, found no neglect and made no recommendation of removal of staff; 3) the KSFA Board of Directors found no neglect. END OF STORY!
What was the purpose of all of this? The AJC began the article by sensationalizing the antics of disruptive children and their defiant parents. The truth that the discipline was non-abusive was buried at the bottom of the column. In my day, this practice was called “yellow journalism”.
In the current national climate when education, which means children, are taking a huge hit, there is a strong and consistent “LIGHT OF HOPE” at KIPP South Fulton Academy [KSFA] where, on a daily basis and Saturdays, dedicated Faculty and Staff educate the children and fundamental values such as excellence, integrity, creativity and hard work are taught. Un-abusive discipline is meted out on a fair and consistent basis. Undisclosed sources have indicated that KSFA Children who are mostly minority, come from low-income families and are deemed, otherwise uneducable, are outperforming every other middle school in South Fulton County. It was recently confirmed that KSFA 8th Graders’ Writing Scores tied as the 4th highest in Fulton County! That is the kind of news that is “fit to print”.
In my opinion, the positive consequence of this reported dispute is the “weeding out” of the parents who did not believe in the KSFA ideals. The sad result are the children who have been caught up in the “whirlwind” created by their parents who snatched them up due to parental defiance, emotion, immaturity or ignorance. Any reporter worth her salt should have seen through this as well as any editor. Writing this article in the manner in which it was presented, makes the newspaper complicit in the victimization of these very children.
When I queried, the KSFA Administration, Faculty and Staff replied that they are too busy to respond to this article, as they are involved in the full-time and Saturday business of educating the remaining children. Plus, a lot of prospective parents who read the article have responded with a flood of applications and the existing parents have closed rank and encouraged the Administration, Faculty and Staff to “stay the course.”
I believe that the excellence that KSFA has achieved and are achieving will “reign true” at the 8th Grade graduation when each child proudly steps up to the microphone, confidently announces her or his name, the name of the high school to which he or she has gained acceptance and the specific college to which she or he aspires.
“Wisdom is proved right by all her Children.” Luke 7:35.
thechildren
March 27th, 2009
11:55 pm
it should be noted that several complaints were filed with the Department of Education, DFAC’s, Eastpoint Police and several other agencies and KIPP was cleared of any wrongdoing. If it were as the child and parent states, would there not have been consequences handed down from these federal and state agencies? Is this what we are reduced to consider as news? No matter if the child peed on herself, or if the parent or group of parents disagree with the way the school is run, what is the purpose of making this information public? This is a selfish act, no consideration of the students, parents, teachers or administrators that this might affect. This is the act of someone not wanting to take no for an answer. I understand determination, but as a parent I would definitely spend my energy on more productive things. I didn’t even want to blog about this mess, but it is just tearing me up inside that this parent feels that the incident warranted such actions. What kind of message is this sending to the children that misbehaved? Misbehave and mommy will make a big fuss so the major issues will not be addressed. I used to try and divert my mom’s attention so as not to get in as much trouble but she never fell for it. This parent’s actions are going to have consequences for many years to come. AJC please do a follow up on the children that were misbehaving. Will mom be going having it out with the judge on their behalf? Think about it Mom. I mean really, this was so important. Leave the children alone! Children have more common sense sometimes that it seems the parents have. The child is still at the school not because he wants to finish the year but maybe just maybe he likes the school. His mom is probably embarrassing him but she is to caught up in this crap to see it. Let it go, this is a sickness that will eat you up. Discipline never hurt anyone!
kipp parent
March 28th, 2009
12:02 am
the school has a communication “paycheck” system that goes home every week. the students also have agenda’s that are to be signed every night.
how much more communication does one need? parents we need to get over ourselves and our children!
Stacey Hopkins
March 30th, 2009
2:10 pm
Let’s face it, KIPP does a good job and has proved results in communities in where students are behind the curve or where there is little parental involvement, as that’s how it was designed to work. After all, you don’t see their schools in all areas.
With that said, many parents have become disallussioned and frustrated as they aren’t seeing what they were sold on. The KIPP program works best when you simply send your child off to them, sign off on the necessary papers and let them do the rest. This concept sounds good on paper, but when you come against certian behaviors in certain teachers and administrators that go against what’s being taught at home, that’s where the problems come in and this is what we’re seeing in this particular school.
It’s a problem that has occurred with other schools, as the KIPP school in Fresno is experiencing similar problems. KIPP should be more flexible in adapting their model to the community and realize that the cookie-cutter approach doesn’t work for all.
The mechanisms that are in place are meant to work and they do when applied with a sense of fairness and justice. What some parents have found is that the values and rules that they have enacted to govern the children are not the ones they seem to follow for themselves. I expect them to be a better examples, because what you then teach the children is a confusing and mixed message and the actual merit gets lost. I expect my child to suffer consequences due to misbehavior, but when the justice is applied unevenly or with retribution, that presents a problem for many.
For example, just this past week after looking at my child’s paycheck (which usually averages in the $95 range, she had amassed a series of deductions that didn’t follow the consequence matrix. A teacher had levied a $5 deduction without showing any progressive deductions for the offense at the $1 and $2 levels, as outlined in the handbook. When I asked my daughter why she didn’t question it with the teacher in question, she told me it was because if they try to dispute items, they end up with more deductions. She was also penalized for $5 for not turning in the orange progress report acknowledgement sheet by Ms. Kinney, when it was actually not only turned in, but a teacher and an aide confirmed it. Now, keep in mind that my child was placed into the FIRE station because of it even though after I had questioned and gotten the correct tally after the erroneous entries were removed, she still had to perform the punishments even though the school was for whatever reason one could surmise at fault. Now, tell me what lesson is my child learning from that? According to the school, it is the policy that even if they are wrong, the punishments still stand whether they are correct or not.
I had a teacher call me to express concern about whom my child wwas associating with in school and that’s a good thing, right? However, when I asked about the identity of the students so that I could address it as it is my duty and right as a parent, I was told that the names couldn’t be disclosed due to confidentiality reasons. That leaves me in a standoff, as I know many of my child’s school friends outside of that environment and some ae regular vistors in my home, if there’s something I haven’t seen that they have, perhaps I need to know about it. I spoke with a few and found out that they were being told the same exact thing about their child. Without critical and necessary information, whom am I expected to believe?
We hear the lament that parents aren’t involved with their children or unaware of the goings-on. We all work in conjunction with each other and the KIPP program is set up to take on full and complete control without any intervention, but that’s not how the market the school.
Perhaps there wasn’t any charges that in the opinion of certain agencies that met the criteria under any current applicable law, but that doesn’t mean that there wasn’t an incident thay crossed a moral and/or professional line nor does it negate the fact what happened.
There’s a nautal assumption that all teachers and educators are of some superior moral fiber and they should be as they have the difficult and important task of providing a child with an education. But they are merely mortals, as we all are and subject to the same shortcomings and faults that affect us all in the human race and one should keep that in mind. After all, we were told a great many things by our government that we now know haven’t turned out to be the absolute truth…
Soniaa Adams
April 5th, 2009
10:57 pm
I am an elementary school teacher, and it’s unfortunate that some children come to school just to pass the time of day. Some parents are great when it comes to their children’s behaviors in schools, but unfortunately there are a few who are in denial. If children do it at home, it is quite likely they will do it outside.
When teachers constantly call home, I believe it sends the wrong message to the child. The teacher appears to be handing control of the class to the parents. It is similar to mom saying to the child, “Wait until dad gets home.”
At the beginning of the school year the teacher should send home a copy of the rules of the classroom, along with the consequences, and request that the parent reads and signs it. An experienced teacher should have recorded all of the problems that could possibly occur, and attached a consequence to each one that is likely to disrupt the learning process. When a child breaks a rule, the consequence should be clear. If isolation is a consequence for disruptive behavior, the child and the parent would be fully aware of it. If the parent has an issue with a particular consequence, that parent should address it with the teacher at the beginning of the school year.
Parents want their children to learn, and they must understand that the teacher is faced with several different personalities, and that conflicts will sometimes interfere with the smooth operation of the classroom. A parent sometimes forgets that their child is not the only child in the class. When it comes to discipline in the classroom, teachers need to think ahead, and make preparations, and understand that we are expected to be miracle workers.