When does discipline cross the line?
Some parents from a south Fulton charter school withdrew their kids after accusing teachers of “excessive punishment.”
The parents say teachers at KIPP South Fulton Academy were wrong to separate their kids from other students during class and lunch. They said students were made to sit on the floor and one girl urinated on herself because she was not allowed to use the restroom immediately.
School leaders dispute parents’ version of the story. They said no students were mistreated and that the students were disciplined after disrupting class for several days.
Leaders from the middle school in East Point said they should have told parents their kids were in trouble, but refused to remove the teachers involved. The principal said the school should have done a better job explaining expectations for student conduct.
Without knowing all the details, it’s hard to tell if teachers or parents overreacted to the situation.
But it does raise some interesting questions. At what point should parents be told their children got in trouble and will be disciplined? When does that punishment become excessive?
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71 comments Add your comment
MEB
March 23rd, 2009
8:56 pm
So much for personal responsibility….something most kids are no longer taught thanks in part to our nation’s response to, “low self-esteem” back in the 80’s and 90’s. Don’t discipline kids…you might hurt their feelings. Forget coping skills, mommy will make a phone call and take care of everything. Parents need to wake up….what is a minor nuisance at home becomes extremely disruptive in an environment where your child is one of many, i.e. school, team sports, camp, etc. Multiply your child’s needs/issues by 30 and then imagine yourself spending 6 or more hours a day trying to teach them something meaningful. Think about what you go through trying to get your child to help with chores and then imagine what it is like to teach algebra.
Parents- Want to know how your child is doing? Try having a conversation with them. Turn off the TV and Playstation! Help them with their homework. Ask them open-ended questions and teach them how to communicate with other people through conversation and body-language…not just a keyboard. If you don’t get the results you want on the first time, keep trying. Your kids need you and their teachers need you to help them reinforce the lessons from school.
I understand that children lie about things but if you really talk to them and get to know them, you should be able to pick up some cues….guilt, anger, happiness, sorrow, shame, joy…your kids are talking to you through their actions and expressions. Are you listening?
rhoho
March 23rd, 2009
10:11 pm
There is way too much rationalization going on by parents who think the school is at fault here. As a former middle school teacher who is still in education, I can tell you, without question, that if the children would just follow the rules none of this ever comes up. The teacher said she didn’t see the little girl raise her hand to ask to go to the restroom. The girl says she asked. I’ve got news for some of you: children lie. Mine do, yours do, we all did. Nobody had to teach us how. The parents who have pulled their children out don’t want to face the fact that little Johnny or Janice can’t cut it in an environment where they are held accountable for their actions and have to deal with the consequences of inappropriate behavior
Lee
March 23rd, 2009
10:54 pm
Much ado about very little. …and the only thing I read that caused me concern is the girl who allegedly was not allowed to use the restroom.
C. B. Rae
March 23rd, 2009
11:11 pm
I think the point is missed on all sides regarding this topic. This is about children misbehaving and the proper way to discipline. I mean if you took these same kids, made them lighter and stuck them in a school oh say..in Johns Creek and a teacher there suggested well how about we take away their desk and make them sit on the floor don’t notify their parents of the punishment and label them. I wonder if the comments would shift? Why is it okay for this group of children to be label not accountable for their actions where in a different part of the county given the same situation..parents would be lighting fire under the school board and mostly likely those involved would resign. Face it people..KIPP and the board treat the children of south fulton differently because they have labeled the children discipline problems from day one. Why does KIPP feel the need to have such a emphasis on discipline for lower income black children? A bratty kid, is a bratty kid black or white. Sorry but this “discipline” of young black children(all 5th graders by the way) is not preparing them for the real world, only the little box society has already labeled them to fit in.
Dr. Craig Spinks
March 24th, 2009
8:21 am
Jim D, sure school administrators SOMETIMES screw up things legal. But here in East Central Georgia, two of our public school systems have retained a law firm infamous for its phobia of courtrooms. When schools boards don’t have counsel willing to go to bat for them when their employees are right, how much backing can such boards provide to their administrators and their teachers? School system employees in the Richmond and Columbia county public school systems are scared to death of parents and students primarily because their boards, which are are represented by effete, pusillanimous counsel, are, too.
jim d
March 24th, 2009
9:06 am
Doc,
SOMETIMES??
google schools sued in georgia 2008 and you will get about 466,000 hits.
I may be in error, but seems to me that might be considered a bit more than SOME. But let me defend these law firms that represent school systems by saying they have no incentive to take matters to court–they are paid with tax dollars for doing nothing(a pretty sweet scam actually)and school systems also don’t really care because they have an open pocketbook (ours)
lra
March 24th, 2009
12:11 pm
I understand the dicipline issue although I don’t approve of it. But can the Administration please inform me of the Sexual Abuse case that occured, the Gang case, and the boy entering the school with a GUN? I know if off topic but I needed to get it off of my chest. Maybe someone in the Admistration @ KIPP is looking at this.
Tslick
March 24th, 2009
1:53 pm
After reading the article I was a bit confused as to why this was news. There are many more serious things happening in schools than a group of students being separated for disruptive behavior. Was this article more political than it appears??? Is the AJC hoping to add some negative press to Charter schools for some reason…I am not sure.
I have been an educator for close to 30 years, both high school and middle school, and I kept waiting for there to be something in the article that was newsworthy.
The article should have been about how parents OVERREACT and the effect that has on students, thus creating a bigger problem for schools.
While I don’t believe it to be true, my parents curtailed quite a few problems by sending us to school with the notion, “teachers are always right”. What message do you think these students that were withdrawn from KIPP will take with them to the next school…?
Stacey Hopkins
March 24th, 2009
3:37 pm
To answer the question, discipline goes too far when it falls under the category of it being illegal under the rule of law. In other words, if the United States of America or the State of Georgia says that I, as a parent can’t do it, neither can any educator or administrator.
For thse unfamiliar with the circumstances and the past problems with this particular school, I can see this being dismissed as just a few disgruntled ‘helicopter parents’ but there’s a lot more to this story and there’s quite a bit of blame that could be spread. But the main problem lies in the administration and the board, as they work in conjunction with each other. I should know, I’ve been with this school since its conception and have a 6th grader enrolled currently.
The presumption is being made that the administration and board is operating on honesty, integrity and professionalism and that hasn’t always been the case. I’m tha parent of five kids and well aware that they may not always tell the truth, but neither do adults. Ms. Kinney knows good and well that she was admonished for her actions during the infamous 5th grade field trip last year in which she was heard by me yelling at my child that she was a liar and needed to get out of her face and her first comment to me was that “she wouldn’t have said it if she knew there was a parent on the line”. So what exactly would or does she say around my child exactly?
Mr. Pryor just this week called a group of children “snakes in the grass and something that deserved to be flushed down the toilet”. Yeah, that’s change for you, alright…
Children being subjected to teachers turning the heat or air for extended periods…
Inaccurate reporting of grades…
Conflicts of interest with board members…
Questionable expenditures…
There’s a lot more then what’s being told…
jim d
March 24th, 2009
3:51 pm
t slick,
“What message do you think these students that were withdrawn from KIPP will take with them to the next school…?”
I would hope they would walk away with an understanding that teachers are NOT ALWAYS right, but are always the teacher. Don’t believe that? Talk in depth to just about any hs history teacher for about 10 minutes and if you have any knowledge of history you will see what i mean.
You guys that feel teachers are always right just piss me off!
Lee
March 24th, 2009
6:54 pm
Stacey Hopkins, after all the problems you cited, your child is still a student at Kipp because……..????
Tony
March 24th, 2009
8:56 pm
After pondering many of the statements made about situations of discipline, it seems to hurt people’s feelings when teachers call an action what it is. Lying, for instance, is an act of “not telling the truth.” Why is it so offensive for someone to confront a lie for what it is? When students disrupt class, they should be separated so the other students can go on learning. If this constitutes “humiliation” then so what? Don’t the other kids have a right to learn? We have strayed as a society when we, as parents, are unwilling to teach our children the difference from right and wrong. I am very lucky to be in the community that supports the school’s actions, but I am also lucky because the teachers work together with the parents through communication.
Dr. Craig Spinks
March 25th, 2009
3:56 am
Jim D, please don’t mistake Google “hits” for lawsuits. Of course, those school admins who regularly screw up things legal need to be helped to find somethings else to do. But I remain resolute in my belief that only through our local and state school boards’ taking tough stands through the actions of competent, courageous board attorneys can our society reassert ADULT CONTROL of our public schools BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE! And TOO LATE is coming on fast and strong!
Stacey Hopkins
March 25th, 2009
11:16 am
Lee,
My child is currently still attending KSFA because due to my child’s choice to remain until the end of the term. In my family, we don’t quit what we start and I respect her decision. She’s hurting, but she’s a tough, little cookie and wants to fight as SHE still believes in the possibility that the school can change and I have to respect that. She sees something worth staying for – for now.
There are other factors for me at play; I don’t have a wide range of choices and option open to me in this particular part of South Fulton. Of the choices I have in the public/charter system, the one of my preference has no opening and the other may bring less stress, but would place her in a school with an inferior curriculum to KIPP.
For many of us in South Fulton, it’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Your choices are often limited to not finding the best school for your child, but finding the best school you can live with.
Stacey Hopkins
March 25th, 2009
12:25 pm
Tony,
I can’t speak for all the parents, but most of us realize the need for discipline and have no problem for reasonable measures. The problem is not in that, but in the way the actions are sometimes carried out. They are done in a manner that may teach that it’s a consequence, but occasionally done in a manner that is humiliating, spiteful, and excessive. If the school wishes to operate as an alternative school, it should bill itself as one.
Kids do have a right to learn and adults have the duty and responsibility to teach them, but that doesn’t always translate into punishment. As a parent of five, I found out that the one-size-fits-all approach doesn’t work, as each of my children differ individually. What works for one, didn’t necessarily work for all and often I had to dig and see what was at the root of the problem instead of dealing with the symptoms. These are children who need to be taught, not adults who should know better.
If there’s a kid in trouble, there’s a reason behind it. There’s a line where as a parent, I have to take the reins as that’s my job and responsibility as a parent. For some parents, you have to show them how or perhaps do their job for them, but you have to know how to recognize the difference of which type of parent you’re dealing with, as we’re not all the same. You have to flexible to handle constant adjustments, that’s a part of raising children.
You touched upon a common problem that affects a lot of neighborhoods in South Fulton, lack of parental involvement, but I see a change in that phenomenon and many of the schools seem to have a problem adjusting to that. By open, transparent communication, knowing whom and what you’re dealing with and being willing to adjust and be open to change; it creates an environment where all parties can only get better and achieve their common and mutually beneficial goals. You are indeed lucky to live in a community where that’s recognized, but some of us aren’t as lucky…
Lying is wrong and shouldn’t be tolerated but for those dispensing judgment, one is expected to do so without hypocrisy.
Parent
March 26th, 2009
2:24 pm
I think it should be noted that the woman pictured with her son in the picture still has a son who is enrolled in the 7th grade at Kipp South Academy. How bad could the school really be if one son is still there, but the other son was withdrawn?
Denise Mullens Carter, Esq.
March 27th, 2009
4:46 pm
“CHARTER SCHOOL FACES WITHDRAWALS OVER PUNISHMENT”
Headlines such as this one highlight a community environment of lies and confusion and oh yes, sell newspapers in the short-run. Yet the publication of stories that are “Much Ado About Nothing” are more likely to result in the demise of the reputation of The Atlanta Journal and Constitution which faces greater challenges as part of a dying industry. In my opinion, the distribution of these types of stories is akin to “gaining the world while loosing one’s soul.”
Let’s get the facts straight. There were at least 3 investigations of this “Complaint”:
1) The External Investigator, The Georgia State Division of Youth and Family Services found no child neglect; 2) The Internal Investigator, Jondre Pryor, Principal, found no neglect and made no recommendation of removal of staff; 3) the KSFA Board of Directors found no neglect. END OF STORY!
What was the purpose of all of this? The AJC began the article by sensationalizing the antics of disruptive children and their defiant parents. The truth that the discipline was non-abusive was buried at the bottom of the column. In my day, this practice was called “yellow journalism”.
In the current national climate when education, which means children, are taking a huge hit, there is a strong and consistent “LIGHT OF HOPE” at KIPP South Fulton Academy [KSFA] where, on a daily basis and Saturdays, dedicated Faculty and Staff educate the children and fundamental values such as excellence, integrity, creativity and hard work are taught. Un-abusive discipline is meted out on a fair and consistent basis. Undisclosed sources have indicated that KSFA Children who are mostly minority, come from low-income families and are deemed, otherwise uneducable, are outperforming every other middle school in South Fulton County. It was recently confirmed that KSFA 8th Graders’ Writing Scores tied as the 4th highest in Fulton County! That is the kind of news that is “fit to print”.
In my opinion, the positive consequence of this reported dispute is the “weeding out” of the parents who did not believe in the KSFA ideals. The sad result are the children who have been caught up in the “whirlwind” created by their parents who snatched them up due to parental defiance, emotion, immaturity or ignorance. Any reporter worth her salt should have seen through this as well as any editor. Writing this article in the manner in which it was presented, makes the newspaper complicit in the victimization of these very children.
When I queried, the KSFA Administration, Faculty and Staff replied that they are too busy to respond to this article, as they are involved in the full-time and Saturday business of educating the remaining children. Plus, a lot of prospective parents who read the article have responded with a flood of applications and the existing parents have closed rank and encouraged the Administration, Faculty and Staff to “stay the course.”
I believe that the excellence that KSFA has achieved and are achieving will “reign true” at the 8th Grade graduation when each child proudly steps up to the microphone, confidently announces her or his name, the name of the high school to which he or she has gained acceptance and the specific college to which she or he aspires.
“Wisdom is proved right by all her Children.” Luke 7:35.
thechildren
March 27th, 2009
11:55 pm
it should be noted that several complaints were filed with the Department of Education, DFAC’s, Eastpoint Police and several other agencies and KIPP was cleared of any wrongdoing. If it were as the child and parent states, would there not have been consequences handed down from these federal and state agencies? Is this what we are reduced to consider as news? No matter if the child peed on herself, or if the parent or group of parents disagree with the way the school is run, what is the purpose of making this information public? This is a selfish act, no consideration of the students, parents, teachers or administrators that this might affect. This is the act of someone not wanting to take no for an answer. I understand determination, but as a parent I would definitely spend my energy on more productive things. I didn’t even want to blog about this mess, but it is just tearing me up inside that this parent feels that the incident warranted such actions. What kind of message is this sending to the children that misbehaved? Misbehave and mommy will make a big fuss so the major issues will not be addressed. I used to try and divert my mom’s attention so as not to get in as much trouble but she never fell for it. This parent’s actions are going to have consequences for many years to come. AJC please do a follow up on the children that were misbehaving. Will mom be going having it out with the judge on their behalf? Think about it Mom. I mean really, this was so important. Leave the children alone! Children have more common sense sometimes that it seems the parents have. The child is still at the school not because he wants to finish the year but maybe just maybe he likes the school. His mom is probably embarrassing him but she is to caught up in this crap to see it. Let it go, this is a sickness that will eat you up. Discipline never hurt anyone!
kipp parent
March 28th, 2009
12:02 am
the school has a communication “paycheck” system that goes home every week. the students also have agenda’s that are to be signed every night.
how much more communication does one need? parents we need to get over ourselves and our children!
Stacey Hopkins
March 30th, 2009
2:10 pm
Let’s face it, KIPP does a good job and has proved results in communities in where students are behind the curve or where there is little parental involvement, as that’s how it was designed to work. After all, you don’t see their schools in all areas.
With that said, many parents have become disallussioned and frustrated as they aren’t seeing what they were sold on. The KIPP program works best when you simply send your child off to them, sign off on the necessary papers and let them do the rest. This concept sounds good on paper, but when you come against certian behaviors in certain teachers and administrators that go against what’s being taught at home, that’s where the problems come in and this is what we’re seeing in this particular school.
It’s a problem that has occurred with other schools, as the KIPP school in Fresno is experiencing similar problems. KIPP should be more flexible in adapting their model to the community and realize that the cookie-cutter approach doesn’t work for all.
The mechanisms that are in place are meant to work and they do when applied with a sense of fairness and justice. What some parents have found is that the values and rules that they have enacted to govern the children are not the ones they seem to follow for themselves. I expect them to be a better examples, because what you then teach the children is a confusing and mixed message and the actual merit gets lost. I expect my child to suffer consequences due to misbehavior, but when the justice is applied unevenly or with retribution, that presents a problem for many.
For example, just this past week after looking at my child’s paycheck (which usually averages in the $95 range, she had amassed a series of deductions that didn’t follow the consequence matrix. A teacher had levied a $5 deduction without showing any progressive deductions for the offense at the $1 and $2 levels, as outlined in the handbook. When I asked my daughter why she didn’t question it with the teacher in question, she told me it was because if they try to dispute items, they end up with more deductions. She was also penalized for $5 for not turning in the orange progress report acknowledgement sheet by Ms. Kinney, when it was actually not only turned in, but a teacher and an aide confirmed it. Now, keep in mind that my child was placed into the FIRE station because of it even though after I had questioned and gotten the correct tally after the erroneous entries were removed, she still had to perform the punishments even though the school was for whatever reason one could surmise at fault. Now, tell me what lesson is my child learning from that? According to the school, it is the policy that even if they are wrong, the punishments still stand whether they are correct or not.
I had a teacher call me to express concern about whom my child wwas associating with in school and that’s a good thing, right? However, when I asked about the identity of the students so that I could address it as it is my duty and right as a parent, I was told that the names couldn’t be disclosed due to confidentiality reasons. That leaves me in a standoff, as I know many of my child’s school friends outside of that environment and some ae regular vistors in my home, if there’s something I haven’t seen that they have, perhaps I need to know about it. I spoke with a few and found out that they were being told the same exact thing about their child. Without critical and necessary information, whom am I expected to believe?
We hear the lament that parents aren’t involved with their children or unaware of the goings-on. We all work in conjunction with each other and the KIPP program is set up to take on full and complete control without any intervention, but that’s not how the market the school.
Perhaps there wasn’t any charges that in the opinion of certain agencies that met the criteria under any current applicable law, but that doesn’t mean that there wasn’t an incident thay crossed a moral and/or professional line nor does it negate the fact what happened.
There’s a nautal assumption that all teachers and educators are of some superior moral fiber and they should be as they have the difficult and important task of providing a child with an education. But they are merely mortals, as we all are and subject to the same shortcomings and faults that affect us all in the human race and one should keep that in mind. After all, we were told a great many things by our government that we now know haven’t turned out to be the absolute truth…
Soniaa Adams
April 5th, 2009
10:57 pm
I am an elementary school teacher, and it’s unfortunate that some children come to school just to pass the time of day. Some parents are great when it comes to their children’s behaviors in schools, but unfortunately there are a few who are in denial. If children do it at home, it is quite likely they will do it outside.
When teachers constantly call home, I believe it sends the wrong message to the child. The teacher appears to be handing control of the class to the parents. It is similar to mom saying to the child, “Wait until dad gets home.”
At the beginning of the school year the teacher should send home a copy of the rules of the classroom, along with the consequences, and request that the parent reads and signs it. An experienced teacher should have recorded all of the problems that could possibly occur, and attached a consequence to each one that is likely to disrupt the learning process. When a child breaks a rule, the consequence should be clear. If isolation is a consequence for disruptive behavior, the child and the parent would be fully aware of it. If the parent has an issue with a particular consequence, that parent should address it with the teacher at the beginning of the school year.
Parents want their children to learn, and they must understand that the teacher is faced with several different personalities, and that conflicts will sometimes interfere with the smooth operation of the classroom. A parent sometimes forgets that their child is not the only child in the class. When it comes to discipline in the classroom, teachers need to think ahead, and make preparations, and understand that we are expected to be miracle workers.