Braves’ talent on the farm has dried up
Pitcher Kenshin Kawakami is the Braves' latest addition -- not from the "farm" system. (Curtis Compton / ccompton@ajc.com)
Once upon a time, as fairy tales usually begin, the Braves were a baseball team that was home-bred, carefully incubated in the farm system, and nurtured all the way up to the major league level. There they won championships and pennants and played in the World Series, one of which they won. And they left their names scrolled on the walls of the ball park where they played, and in team and league record books. Then something began to change after the season of 2005, and the once-flourishing franchise has been groping ever since.
Now, the Braves’ “farm” system reaches from Venezuela to Japan. Deals are made, faces change, and only this season have they reached deep into their jeans to play a hand in the free agent rat-race. A payroll that once was held around the $80-million level, by order of the McScrooge ownership, has now zoomed to about $97 million. They even splurged $60 million on Derek Lowe, a 35-year-old they niftily lifted from the Dodgers. They traded for Javier Vazquez, an $11-million-a-year pitcher, and then they really hit the high road. They invaded Japan.
Kenshin Kawakami is a good-natured 33-year-old pitcher, and I say that without understanding a word he says. When you hire one Japanese player, you get two Japanese. You must have an interpreter, in this case Daichi Takasue, also most accommodating. Any interview is sort of an Edgar Bergen-Charlie McCarthy act. You ask a question, Daiche asks Kenshin, Kenshin replies, Daiche repeats what he said. Kenshin hits well, as pitchers go, and I asked Daiche if he was a good hitter in Japan. Kenshin smiled shyly and in translation, “He wouldn’t want to say. It would look like he’s bragging.”
When I asked him his view on American umpires, he said (so Daiche said), “the plate seems to be narrower over here,” and illustrated with his hands. It does give us a variety we haven’t had in a Braves clubhouse before.
Loading ...So far, the Braves have hovered around .500, but I fear they’ve just about found their level. It’s not the pitching; it’s the run-making. The best prospect of a leadoff man was traded to Detroit, Josh Anderson, a .300 hitter with base-stealing speed and center field experience in the majors. Jordan Schafer probably would have benefited from at least a half-season in triple-A. He’s not a leadoff type. Josh Anderson is, and he’s hitting well in Detroit. There’s a problem at second base right now, but I’m a believer in Kelly Johnson. They’re suffering the loss of Brian McCann, which nobody has figured into the equation. And Chipper Jones can be handled — just don’t pitch to him.
We saw an illustration while the Cardinals were in town of how a bad deal can draw blood over the years. The Braves didn’t simply trade Adam Wainwright to get J.D. Drew for a year, but they also threw in Jason Marquis, now a $9.8-million starter in Colorado. That deal will be haunting this team for years, as will the deal that sent five golden talents to Texas for a season of Mark Teixeira — who, as a Yankee, is currently hitting more than l00 points below Casey Kotchman. Three are on the Rangers roster and a fourth, pitcher Neftali Feliz, may be the best of them all, Bobby Cox said. Right now he’s tuning up on the Oklahoma City farm.
Gone are the rich old farm days that gave us John Smoltz, Tom Glavine, Steve Avery, Mercker, Stanton, Wohlers, Lemke, Blauser, Chipper … a bumper crop of farm products. Just pick up the phone and call Richmond. Now, it’s just a matter of calling a cab in Lawrenceville — if there’s any help there to be called for.
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© 2009 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
191 comments Add your comment
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May 2nd, 2009
3:49 pm
First
Larry
May 2nd, 2009
3:52 pm
Why would anyone be surprised at the trade of Josg Anderson? He has the potential to steal bases, bunt for a single, turn a double into a triple leading to something that is baffling to Bobby Cox–manufacturing a run in a close game!
There’s only one hope for this team with Bobby Cox. Shutout pitching and a solo homer, just like what Glavine and Justice did to give this man his only championship despite given a wealth of talent for 14 years.
NRBQ
May 2nd, 2009
3:55 pm
Gol-danged, con-sarned, new-fangled, whippersnapper Braves!
bluedar
May 2nd, 2009
3:57 pm
Tommy Hanson. Freddie Freeman. Jason Heyward. Jordan Schafer. Brandon Jones. Gorkys Hernandez. Julio Teheran. Cole Rohrbaugh. Kris Medlen. Cody Johnson. Brandon Hicks.
The list goes on and on.
Michael
May 2nd, 2009
4:00 pm
Actually, I disagree. Look at our lineup – McCann, KJ, Escobar, Chipper, Schaefer, and Frenchy were all brought up through the farm system (as were Martin Prado, Brandon Jones, and Jo-Jo Reyes). Hanson will be up soon. While the hitting has been atrocious, this likely has very little to do with the organization the player came up with.
Daniel
May 2nd, 2009
4:01 pm
Furman.. your crazy.
Jordan Schafer, Jason Heyward, Tommy Hanson, Freddie Freeman, Cole Rohrbaugh.. etc etc etc.
We have the 2nd rated farm system in all of baseball right now. Your complaining because we traded away Josh Anderson to give Schafer a chance to play every game? Jordan has the 2nd highest OBP behind Chipper.
Who exactly did we give up to get Derek Lowe? The biggest mistake was trading Salty for Tex, but we will learn from that.
Didnt we trade away a vet in Edgar Renteria to get Jair Jurrjens? I would say that worked out. Give the front office a break. They want to win now, and win later. Chipper isnt getting any younger.
jmart1951
May 2nd, 2009
4:10 pm
The Braves have one of the best farm systems in the major leagues. Go over to Gwinnett and look for yourself. Then take a holiday to Myrtle Beach and while there take in a game. Our farm system is getting ready to explode with talent. The Braves future is bright and Wren appears to be more stingy with our prospects than his predecessor.
IlliniDawg
May 2nd, 2009
4:12 pm
This is what you get when you let a senile pensioner out of his walker so he can write a column for a major newspaper.
JF
May 2nd, 2009
4:14 pm
Mr. Bisher is right…. despite what you’re listing as current players, the fact is the trades he has listed are fact….and if any of you think that giving the five “golden” farm kids away for a one year rental of a selfish player like Tex, or an often injured Drew…then you can’t be helped.
Not having traded those kids away might negate the need for Lowe, KK, or Vasquez to all come here with the big salaries…
My, my….look what’s happening now with McCann needing a seeing eye dog…where is Salty when you need him?…ask Big John the former GM…
Maybe Salty would have been playing first intead of Kothman, and could have slipped behind the plate easily…and Elvis Andrus might well be pushing Escobar….
…and on and on…
Yes folks, Mr. Bisher (remember that, because he earned that respect while most of you were still in dirty diapers)….Mr. Bisher has forgotten more than most of you will ever know….
thanks, Mr. Bisher….
Bill
May 2nd, 2009
4:18 pm
Smoltz a farm product? — oh yes, of Detroit!
braveshater
May 2nd, 2009
4:23 pm
Kelly Jonhnson is a bust. Schaffer will be a decent player, but not a difference maker. Escobar is the only thing resembling a star the Braves have produced since Chipper. I agree with u Furman. I dont know what these clowns are doing. Its not like we’re bringin in Top Notch talent via free agency. we get an over the hill pitcher, one who just gives it up and eats innings, and a Japanese who cant find the strike zone. Where is Manny, or Burnett, or Sabathia, or anybody who would make a difference. How do u spend all this money to be a .500 team, it makes no sense. we could have done that with the talent we have in the farm system. If there isnt a better second baseman than Kelly Johnson in the system, its a JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
uga
May 2nd, 2009
4:32 pm
The Braves have a lot of problems, but the farm system isn’t one of them. It’s widely regarded as one of the better farm systems in all of baseball.
Tim
May 2nd, 2009
4:33 pm
Correction….Smoltz did not come out of the Braves farm system, he was in the Detroit system and the Braves stole him in the Doyle Alexander deal. That said, I agree that the Braves have mortgaged their future on bad trades that did not work out, and destroyed the farm system. I fear the Vazquez trade will be another one that is regretted.
jay
May 2nd, 2009
4:36 pm
Its always terrific to get the scenile musings of a geriatric in your morning paper. Nevermind that Baseball America and ESPN both rank our farm talent among their top-five. Nevermind that Furman Bischer is clearly old and out of touch. Let’s just churn out another overwrought piece of journalistic garbage and expect the public to digest it because “it’s Furman!”… THIS is why newspapers are dying.
farmdaddyo
May 2nd, 2009
4:41 pm
Furman Bisher has been writing foolish stuff for decades. Check out the old Bear Bryant stories. The Braves may have traded away some good prospects for Tex but the farm is not empty. There are other writers this paper that don’t agree with the senile one.
John
May 2nd, 2009
4:43 pm
wow, what a horrible article. how about you do some research next time.
payattention
May 2nd, 2009
4:47 pm
people…pay attention…there are two things that are being talked about here, and while i agree with Mr. Bisher most of the time today i dont. The farm system (FS) is not dried up, it has just been sprinkled on other teams (though we do have some great potential talent up and coming). The braves problem is not free agency nor the current FS it has been the three poor trades talked about in this article…though the fact that we have made three poor trades costing us around 15 prospects proves that the FS is not dried up…people wanted the goods that we have, and we still have 12 to 15 potential studs out there. The article should have been titled “Trades that have crippled the Braves”, instead.
Daybed Wagmoe
May 2nd, 2009
4:56 pm
It’s okay everybody — just smile, nod, humor the old man, and go to Dave O’Brien’s blogs for actual news on the Braves and their very promising, very strong farm system.
Randy
May 2nd, 2009
4:56 pm
Due respect Furman, but your head is up your ass if you think the Braves’ farm system has “dried up.” Get real. The Braves have one of the richest farm systems in baseball.
Jim H.
May 2nd, 2009
4:57 pm
Furman, do you even know anything about Atlanta sports anymore? Dude, I respect you but I think its time for you to retire. I was going to go down the list of high rated home grown prospects that the Braves have at or near the major league level, but bluedar and others have pretty much covered it (good job). If there ever was a problem with the farm system it can be argued that the problem existed several years ago, but has been corrected in the past few years. As for the recent dry spell in playoff appearances, that can be attributed to things like — 1) a shrinking payroll that caused us to have to turn loose lots of talent during the last 10 years 2.) The injury bug catching up with us (during the playoff run the Braves were very lucky at avoiding injuries 3.) Our luck just plain evening out. The 14 year division champ run was an anomaly…..things like that just don’t happen very often in pro sports.
I do agree with you however that the Tex trade was an awful trade. I thought it was when they did it and I still think that. Gotta take the good with the bad though. That Jurrjens trade looks pretty dang good, don’t it?
Go back to sleep Mr. Bisher.
MiltonDawg
May 2nd, 2009
5:00 pm
Something needs to change soon. Our offense is sub-par if that. As far as 2B is concerned, anybody good in Gwinnett? I also think the Braves playing for a home crowd with a half empty stadium. Where are the fans in the seats? There is no buzz about them at all. Agreed??
Wilson
May 2nd, 2009
5:04 pm
When 6 of the 8 position players in your Opening Day lineup are out of your farm system, arguing that the team doesn’t develop players and the farm system talent has dried up doesn’t really hold much water. Not to mention the slew of prospects on the horizon who will be competing for major league jobs in the near future.
Josh
May 2nd, 2009
5:13 pm
Bisher you suck! maybe you should actually pay attention every now and then, The Braves have one of the best farm systems in baseball.
Pickens
May 2nd, 2009
5:20 pm
Furman,
You put up stupid story after stupid story. Do you know all of the talent that is about to come up through the braves system? You have no CLUE!!! Please do us a favor and RETIRE!!!
BillH
May 2nd, 2009
5:23 pm
Hey, maybe I’m old too, because (1) Bisher is right (2) the sort of insulting comments made here come from people who wouldn’t be qualified to hold Bisher’s hat.
What’s the deal with being rude? And, if what I’ve experienced in life offers any clue, the people who insult others while anonymous on the Net are usually timid little people who spend the day in real life getting kicked around. So, safe at their keyboards, they take cheap shots. If you said any of that to Bisher’s face – even at his age – he’d throw you out the window and on into the trees.
Disagree all you like with Bisher but, lord a mercy, try to do it in a civil way. Surely your mamas taught you better than this.
Timmy
May 2nd, 2009
5:30 pm
Furman,
I have not read much of your stuff in the past, but I have to ask that you stick to talking about things you know about. The Atlanta Braves farm system is one of the elite systems in baseball. We’re easily top 5, and some would argue us as even having the second best farm system in the game. And that’s before you even realize all the talent we’ve traded away the last couple years. Add the guys we swapped in the Teixiera deal (Feliz, Harrison, Andrus) and we’re easily number one. And another solid prospect in catcher Tyler Flowers, who I really feel will become one of the elite DHs in the game when Thome retires.
Some things about our farm system you should know:
A rival team’s scout said he would trade any player on their major league roster for Jason Heyward. Think about that statement for a second.
Tommy Hanson has had multiple people compare him to Roy Halladay. Halladay is one of the best, if not the best pitchers in the game.
Kris Medlen’s adjustment period to being promoted to AAA this year was him retiring the first 20 batters he faced in order, and facing the minimum through 26.
We have two top 100 prospects who are the youngest and second youngest players at their level, and are more than holding their own in Freddie Freeman and Jason Heyward.
Jeff Locke just took a no-no bid into the 7th inning for his second straight start.
Zeke Spruill a kid who was going to Prom this time last year, is pitching in full season ball, and has a 20-1 K-BB ratio. That’s insane. And he wasn’t even our first pick.
I could continue, but it’s not even worth it, because you obviously aren’t paying any attention at all.
anonbeliever
May 2nd, 2009
5:44 pm
How can you be a Kelly Johnson fan???? Do you have an affinity for players who hit sub .100 for a month, then suprisingly become sizzling hot and hit .400 for a stretch only to leave you with a a TERRIBLY INCONSISTENT .250 hitting OUTFIELDER playing 2nd base???
I sure hope there were some breakdowns when it came to scouting of the five players we sent for Teixeira, but if there wern’t John Schurholtz should be fired immediately since we obviously had no intention of keeping Tex any longer than we did… ITS TIME FOR AN OVERHAUL
Josh
May 2nd, 2009
5:45 pm
Furman, in this economy, I’d slash your job first. This is the worst article I have read on this website in awhile.
1. Our farm system is washed up? … quite the opposite… we have a top 3 farm system in Major League Baseball. Just because they aren’t playing 30 minutes away in Gwinnett, I guess you just don’t look past AAA. Read up on Freeman, Heyward, Hanson, Gorkys Hernendez (all top 100 prospects) and Julio Teheran, Jeff Locke, Cole Rohrbaugh, Kris Medlen, Cody Johnson, and Brandon Hicks… and we have the 7th pick in the draft.
2. You are mad the Braves traded Josh Anderson and his “experience” to Detroit? He hasnt had more than 150 ABs in a season and has played 45 games in CF in 3 seasons… Schafer hit .324 in Spring Training with 5 SBs and is the future… Josh Anderson was traded to us for Oscar Villareal… Schafer is a 5 tool player… Anderson is not.
3.You are obviously clueless when it comes to talking about how “poor” our starting pitching is… since our starters are 4th in the NL in ERA.
4. You are going to judge Marquis on the fact he is making $9.8M this season? Try looking at his statistics… he is garbage. A career 4.54 ERA ans was awful for us when we traded him.
robert hughes
May 2nd, 2009
5:47 pm
Furman, you do not have a clue. Terence, the racist is gone. It’s time for you to join him.
Chop Chop
May 2nd, 2009
5:48 pm
Somebody’s got to write a crazily inaccurate column from time to time, folks. We need something to complain (and be completely right) about.
Baracked the vote!
May 2nd, 2009
5:52 pm
Prospects come and go. having 2 prospects in the top 100 is no big deal. every ML team should have at least two. Trading Wainwright, Marquis, Andrus and Neftali Feliz can only be viewed as a mistake since the trades were supposed to bring another WS championship to Atlanta. Finally, Kelly Johnson (from the great farm system) is not a ML 2nd baseman. he butchers the position on a regular basis. and what the heck has Jo-Jo Reyes done?
Timmy
May 2nd, 2009
6:01 pm
This sort of writing is why newspapers aren’t going to make it. And blogs and message boards are slowly going to take over.
Tomahawkmafia
May 2nd, 2009
6:05 pm
What are you thinking Furman? The Braves farmsystem is among the best in baseball? Were you bored and just wanted to write about something that is completely false? If that is the case just write a novel.
Timmy
May 2nd, 2009
6:07 pm
On Kelly, he’s about average for his position defensively, and he’s one of the better offensive second basemen in the game. I’ve found Kelly is a good barometer for figuring out if the person you’re talking to has a clue about baseball. Those who think he’s a good ballplayer normally know what they’re talking about, and those who think he stinks normally don’t. He butchers an easy play now and then it makes his defense look worse than it is, but we makes a lot of tough plays, and gets to a lot of balls that other second basemen don’t get to, and that makes up for it. It’s not like he’s played there his whole life, so the easy mistakes should be expected, and he’s only going to continue to improve as a defender. Offensively, BP projected that he’d be the second best 2B in baseball this year, and I still think that’s very feasible. He’s had some rough luck early on, and everyone’s trying to hang him out to dry.
Mike
May 2nd, 2009
6:14 pm
This is the second article you have written on this topic, and you are grossly false. Baseball Prospectus, a rather distinguished magazine, maybe you have heard of it, ranks the Braves farm system as 5th BEST IN THE MAJORS! Mr. Fischer, your time has come to put down the pen. You are out of touch.
Macon Braves (RIP)
May 2nd, 2009
6:21 pm
Huh??? Was about to ask what the the heck this guy was thinking, then realized it was the 100 year old senile guy that the paper keeps around for Equal Opportunity Employment, so I’ll just move on and read something by someone not out of his gourd.
Rob from SC
May 2nd, 2009
6:22 pm
What the hell is wrong with this guy. Jason Heyward and Tommy Hanson are top 5 prospects in all of baseball. We have Freddie Freeman, Gorkys Hernandez, Kris Medlen, Jeff Locke, Cole Rohborgh. Does this guy even look at Baseball America. DOB set him straight
JD
May 2nd, 2009
6:33 pm
You’d think that when writing about 1 article a week you’d have time to do a little research. How can you say the farm has “dried up”? Are you completely ignoring the potential future stars in Heyward, Freeman, Morton, Rohrbough, Locke, Teheran, among others?
And what’s wrong with Wren going outside the organization for help? Look at the people who were big contributors in the 14 straight division titles: Pendleton (yes, the same inept batting coach we have now), Maddux, Smoltz, McGriff, Sheffield, and Hudson, just to name a few.
I can’t believe something like this was even posted.
BravesFAN885
May 2nd, 2009
6:35 pm
are you retarded? the braves have one of the highest ranked minor systems in the game!!!
MEB
May 2nd, 2009
6:52 pm
Very disappointing article Furman. I cannot believe you actually researched this article. I think a retraction is in order. Bringing in some pitching talent from the Dodgers and from Japan does not provide evidence of a decline in the the talent down of the farm. I’m really looking forward to the next five years of Braves baseball with at ton of home grown talent leading the way.
TROTTINGHOME
May 2nd, 2009
6:52 pm
bisher’s brain dried up
Um, what?
May 2nd, 2009
7:38 pm
If the Braves are so committed to free agents, why the heck can’t they seem to re-sign them when the time comes? Sorry, Bisher, your theory doesn’t wash.
the truth....
May 2nd, 2009
7:38 pm
Mr. Bisher…don’t feel too bad at all the dumb rednecks trashing you…by their rudeness we know they are from this era of selfish ignorant smucks. The only class they know anything about was the GED class they skipped so they could procreate with the girl from the piggly wiggly beside her double wide….
ignorance gone to seed……….
Classless….
BravesAreDone
May 2nd, 2009
8:15 pm
I’m not a believer in Kelly Johnson … never have been. Too streaky.
Shamus Thacker
May 2nd, 2009
8:24 pm
Furman, you couldn’t be more wrong if you tried!
Where the Hell did you get your info?
I don’t care if you’ve been at the AJC for fifty-years, your azz should be fired for incompetence over this piece. It’s downright laughable.
Shamus Thacker
May 2nd, 2009
8:36 pm
It’s AMAZING this thing is still up. LMAO
Dr. Phil
May 2nd, 2009
8:36 pm
I don’t agree that the farm system is broken, but something is seriously wrong. The Braves are not hitting, and their relief pitching is horrible. I have followed Josh Anderson for a couple of years, and I think that it was a big mistake trading him. Schafer is likely to become a great player, but for now, I would take Anderson. I think that .500 is about the best we can hope for this year.
Branch Rickey
May 2nd, 2009
8:37 pm
Half the Braves’ starting eight – Schafer, Kochman. Johnson & whoever is playing in left, might be reserves on a good team. The bullpen SUCKS ! The starting staff came from other organizations. Furman Bisher is CORRECT !
John Radney
May 2nd, 2009
8:37 pm
Yes, sign the old washed up players like Glavin and Ross. Smoltz, to their credit, when North, and didn’t re-sign him. Next gone should be the bily goat you have that
plays third. Hurt or gripping. Dump chippie now. that
Sparky Anderson
May 2nd, 2009
8:43 pm
The Braves’ farm system might be getting better but it sure as hell doesn’t reflect the current major league roster; what a bunch of mediocre players ! Better pray Frank Wren doesn’t loot the farm to get some washed up slugger for firstbase or left.
Ken Stallings
May 2nd, 2009
8:45 pm
I don’t agree with Furman’s column. But while I might have made a post about my views on that, the more important factor is the sheer venal rudeness of so many posters here. Many of you simply have no shame.
If Furman Bisher were to retire, it would be solely due to his lamentation of the erosion of human virtue in society. I cannot believe so many people would be so personally obnoxious to an iconic sports columnist.
Sparky Anderson
May 2nd, 2009
8:45 pm
Invest 4 more years in the oft-injured, arrogant and self-centered Chipper Jones? His butt
should be offered to a contender in the American League for a parcel of prospects !
hop
May 2nd, 2009
8:56 pm
if the farm is so strong why are they still on the farm.
i believe the braves senior management continue to emphasis this fact,but they are still a 500 club with no hope of being a contender.
JD
May 2nd, 2009
9:10 pm
if the farm is so strong why are they still on the farm. hop
How much do you know about baseball? Prospects not named Albert Pujols tend to need 3-4 years of seasoning in the minors before they’re anywhere near ready to face major league pitchers and hitters.
And for everyone defending Furman Bisher – just because he’s been here forever doesn’t mean you have to agree with him on everything. My goodness…you guys defend him and kiss his butt so much you’d think he just cured lupus.
win one for Bobby
May 2nd, 2009
9:14 pm
we have one of the best farm systems in baseball, the envy of mlb. Wren wanted to keep a competetive team on the field now, and w/ some youth coming soon, we’re not gonna fade away any time soon. article is way off base in my humble opinion. all do respect to Furman, just don’t get it. We signed free agents and our pitching staff is one of the best, Garrett anderson has let us down thus far and we need b-mac bad. settle down Braves fans(so called), It’s gonna be a great year just wait.
Blair
May 2nd, 2009
9:25 pm
I read this and sort of thought the writer was, perhaps, behind the times a bit. I am not sure I agree with much of it, if any. I just simply don’t have the time to hammer away at an opinion that seems convenient, but doesn’t actually jive with reality.
scottbravesfan
May 2nd, 2009
9:41 pm
HAHA
The Braves have one of the best farm systems in baseball. Chipper, Escobar, Kelly Johnson, Jordan Shafer, Brandon Jones, Jeff Francouer, and Brian McCann. That’s pretty much the every day lineup until Anderson comes back and they are all home grown. Jurrjens was a minor leaguer when he was acquired and Jo Jo Reyes was in our system as was Tom Glavine. We have Tommy Hanson, Jason Heyward, and Freddie Freeman coming along that are going to be good major leaguers by all accounts. The farm is stocked in the lower ends as well.
scottbravesfan
May 2nd, 2009
9:43 pm
Hop,
They are what three games out of first right now you idiot. And the reason they are still on the farm? Have you ever heard of Mark Prior? Google him jackass. You rush pitchers they are out of baseball in two years. Same with position players. You better give them enough at bats in the minors or they are going to be in for a rude awakening.
Seriously some people just need to stick to football because they have no idea how baseball works.
scottbravesfan
May 2nd, 2009
9:44 pm
Hop,
Google Mark Prior and see what happens when you rush pitchers to the big leagues idiot. Same with hitters you don’t give them enough at bats in the minors they will get destroyed in the big leagues.
Stick with football because baseball is just too complicated for your simple mind.
scottbravesfan
May 2nd, 2009
9:46 pm
Sparky Anderson,
Yeah that’s a good idea we should get rid of our best player and one of the best switch hitters in the history of the sport. He’s also the best hitter in franchise history. Has a higher OPS than Hank Aaron, of course you probably have no idea what the hell OPS is.
Coach (2010 or bust)
May 2nd, 2009
10:20 pm
Mr.Bisher, I respect your opinion but this article isn’t even close to being accurate.
The farm system has been productive. It’s just that players and pitchers such as Adam Wainwright, Kyle Davies, Jason Marquis, Kevin Millwood, Jason Schmidt, Mark DeRosa, Jermaine Dye and many others are spread all over the major leagues.
In fact, there are more than 35 active players in the big leagues and minors who were drafted by our Braves. It’s just that they are playing elsewhere.
For whatever reason, these athletes have been traded for players who were able to help keep the division streak alive. Up until 2005, it was worth the trade off.
John Schuerholz has made some great trades and some stinkers. John Smoltz (Cox was the GM) and Fred McGriff come to mind as two of the great trades and Greg Maddux is in my opinion, the greatest free agent acquisition of all time. The bad deals: Teixeira, Wainwright / Marquis top the list.
But with corporate ownership who’s bottom line is either red or black and a limited payroll, our front office has struggled to adjust to the new structure. I can understand the criticism when looking at our current rotation but you must understand, Frank Wren had money to spend and he stuck to his guns in acquiring starting pitching. Some of it will turn out great. Others, not so much.
But my criticism toward you Mr.Bisher is this. How could the Teixeira trade have actually been possible in the first place if our farm system was not productive enough to HAVE THE TALENT to trade in the first place?
patriots75
May 2nd, 2009
11:03 pm
I agree somewhat with his comments,the biggest problem is the coaching staff, they just seem to be too easy going,no take charge or leadership to get over the hump, Bobby’s time has come and gone, time for some new blood to bring energy to the field, we use to be able to just reach down and pull up a player and never miss a beat, but those day’s are over, there are a few that will one day grace the major’s, but most of the names you keep listing are all prospects, that’s the key word, i have seen most of the players on the list over the past several years and other than Hanson,Medlin and Morton, no others are as close to being ready in the next 2-3 years,check their progress for yourself, i think it will be lean a few more years unless they open the payroll to supplement the home grown talent.
Kevin
May 2nd, 2009
11:22 pm
A baseless and pathetic article. Six of the eight Braves’ regulars are homegrown (C Brian McCann, 3B Chipper Jones, SS Yunel Escobar, 2B Kelly Johnson, CF Jordan Schafer, and RF Jeff Francoeur), they’re the only organization with two of the top 10 prospects in all of baseball in Jason Heyward and Tommy Hanson, and they have been universally ranked as one of the top five farm systems in baseball. If you don’t want to research your articles anymore at least be upfront about it.
bird
May 3rd, 2009
12:06 am
Kelly Johnson is garbage! Infante should be the starting second baseman. Better glove and bat by far.
Tommy
May 3rd, 2009
12:29 am
Boy, I really hope the farm system is in as great a shape as most of you think…I’m not as convinced. Sure we have some prospects, but that is exactly what they are…not stars. Some may pan out, others won’t. AND, the point of the article was that unless something changes, they will pan out on some other team.
At the time of the Tex trade, most of you were beside yourself with joy. A GT man, a hometown hero, blah, blah, blah. That had to be the stupidest trade in the history of the franchise.
I disagree with Furman frequently also. However, I think his point about trades rather than holding onto prospects is valid and hopefully will change. I also agree with BillH and Ken S that the attacks on the author are shameful. State your opinion and disagreement, but stop the personal attacks.
Comments that are negative about Chipper really show your ignorance. He is a superstar who wanted to play out his career on a team where he is given NO protection in the order. When has he seen a decent pitch?
Jay
May 3rd, 2009
12:36 am
Furman is out of touch and needs to retire.
MattyO
May 3rd, 2009
1:06 am
Didn’t he write an article like this already. Well the second time around is still totally wrong. How long until the third one? What a waste of an article.
JD
May 3rd, 2009
1:21 am
I really hope this doesn’t go in the Sunday paper.
I love how you make Jason Marquis out to be a great pitcher who’s a huge loss for the Braves. He’s a middle to back of the rotation starter at best.
And you make it sound like a sin that Frank Wren went outside the organization for help. Don’t you think that Pendleton, Smoltz (contrary to what you said, he wasn’t developed by the Braves), Maddux, Sheffield, and Hudson made significant contributions to division titles?
A good portion of our roster now has some above average home-grown talent in Chipper, McCann, Francoeur, and Escobar. And what about the loaded farm teams? Heyward, Hanson, Freeman, Rohrbough, Locke, etc etc etc.
Nick
May 3rd, 2009
1:56 am
Wow….Have to agree with nearly everyone else who posted – whatever you’re smoking Furman, I’d lay off. Talk about a garbage article….
rufus
May 3rd, 2009
2:02 am
Furman’s ignorant of the farm system and the talent homegrown on the team today. Retire and join that fool terrance.
Tom
May 3rd, 2009
2:14 am
It looks like most of the people who responded here just read the headline, but weren’t able to actually read the article. I’d also bet a large percentage of the people trashing Mr. Bisher are too young to really remember the Braves of the 90’s when winning was the only measuring stick. The Braves used to produce players who came to the majors and helped win division championships every year. That’s not the case anymore. Many of the best prospects were traded away for short term players who didn’t really make much of a difference. The rest are still just prospects. Maybe the current group of prospects are highly rated, but until they produce in the major leagues (hopefully for the Braves), they’re still just prospects.
I really like the current home grown Braves – McCann, Escobar, Johnson, Schafer, Francoeur, etc., and I hope they all have long successful careers with the Braves. However, they aren’t winning enough to compete for the division championship. The fact that a team has a bunch of home grown players on their roster doesn’t mean the team is doing a good job managing their farm system. Most of the worst teams in baseball have plenty of home grown players filling spots on the major roster because they can’t find, or can’t afford, anyone better.
Hopefully, the current home grown Braves will continue to improve and live up to their potential, and the last few unsuccessful years will be quickly forgotten; but the fact is, right now Mr. Bisher is 100% correct. The Braves aren’t getting as much out of the farm system as they did during their run of division championships.
Billy
May 3rd, 2009
2:15 am
You people are sick. If you don’t want to read Mr. Bisher’s articles, then don’t. If you do and don’t like them, then it’s YOUR fault, not his.
And I love the people that want to throw out people like Chipper, McCann, Francoeur, and Escobar. That’s the point! These people are already on the team, and they aren’t playing well enough to win games. Maybe if all of these anonymous posters were to stop bashing the writer, they would understand that, no matter what Baseball Prospectus or any other publication says, those players aren’t helping the Braves NOW. Maybe some of the players that were traded COULD be helping us now.
But no, you would rather hurl insults at someone who knows more about sports than you could ever hope to.
Timmy
May 3rd, 2009
2:49 am
To Billy: The point is he simply doesn’t. Any objective baseball fan, analyst, scout, or stat-head can look at the Braves farm system and see the tremendous value that it has. Anyone calling the Braves farm system “dried up” simply doesn’t know what they are talking about. Not when the Braves are having the kinds of drafts they’re having. The Braves didn’t even have a first round pick last year, and they put together a fantastic draft class, anyone who sees the talent being inserted from the bottom will recognize how vibrant this system is. Take a peak at Rome’s pitching staff. The value is in the numbers. Not all of Spruill, Sullivan, Hoover, DeVall, Stovall, Delgado, Teheran, Clemens, Francis, and Thompson will make an impact at the major league level, but the fact that we have 10 young starting arms with as much potential as that group has just entering full season ball speaks volumes about our ability to find and sign young talent. Also consider that after Wieters, and Price graduate to the majors it’s very likely that Jason Heyward will be the consensus number one prospect in the game. We’re loaded.
I agree with Bisher about some of the trades. But I think it speaks volumes when about how good a team’s scouting and development is when they can make a trade like the Teixiera trade and come out the following season with one of the best systems in the game. Trades like that can be franchise-crippling, but our system is so loaded we traded what wound up being 3 blue chip prospects and still wound up having a great system. It just seems to me, if that’s what he wanted to whine about, he should have headlined it more accordingly. The fact that we didn’t sell the farm or even a portion of it for Jake Peavy seems to show that the FO learned their lesson, and stuck to their guns instead of caving to grab a star. Long story short this franchise has better days ahead.
CB
May 3rd, 2009
3:16 am
It’s comical to think that this man even has a job writing about something he obviously has no understanding of. I’ve been watching the Braves farm teams with intense interest for the last 13 years and I’ve can honestly say I’ve never felt better about our farm system. This man should do everyone a favor and put away his typewriter.
DGdDawg
May 3rd, 2009
4:10 am
tom youre a f***ing idiot
Tom
May 3rd, 2009
4:48 am
“Tom youre a f***ing idiot” is all you have to say in response? I think that one says more about you than anyone else. If you were a little smarter, you could try to write something about the Braves, but no, “Tom youre a f***ing idiot” was all you could come up with. Why not go back to your crayons and maybe one day you can use the computer like a big boy.
By the way, it may be “Tom youre a f***ing idiot” in the Clayton County School System, but everywhere else it’s, “DGdDawg, you’re an f***ing idiot.”
JOHNNYG
May 3rd, 2009
7:58 am
Tom – Players like TP, Sid Bream, Liebrandt, Nixon, Deion, Mullhollanf,Ortiz, Charlie O’Brien, Berryhill,Gallarag, Maddux are those players the farm produced every year? Read the Book Scout’s Honor, a book about Braves way of building a team and get back to us.
You develop talent for TWO REASONS to play for you or to TRADE for players you need.
I am suprised Furman woke from a nap long enough to write this.
invisible man
May 3rd, 2009
8:11 am
Furman didn’t you write this same article 6 months ago? John Smoltz is NOT a product of the Braves farm system. He was acquired in a trade as a minor leaguer. Why would you use Jason Marquis as a measuring stick for former Braves players? He has been average with and with out the Braves. He makes 9.8 million dollars? Who cares? Money doesn’t make you a great player. The major leagues are filled with million dollar players who are average at best. Adam Wainwright? That’s one ex-Brave that’s had some success. There’s a long list of supposed blue chip ex braves that never did a thing once they arrived in the major leagues. The “5 golden talents” that were traded to Texas for Texiera? Who are they? Any MVPs, Cy youngs or allstars in that group? Maybe Wainwright has been successful because he has better talent around in St. Louis then he had when he was a Brave. Who knows. The 90s are over and the Braves run is over. It looks like the young talent that was around in the spring could be good. Who knows. Furman you wrote that the Drew and Wainwright/Marquis trade will haunt the Braves for years to come, have you looked at all the talent that the New York Yankees have traded away, etc. And the Yankees have won more championships then the Braves. Every team has traded away “talent”, so stop crying about it. Just because you draft or sign a player into your farm system, doesn’t make them better if and when they reach the major leagues. It’s a crap shoot.
glove51
May 3rd, 2009
8:16 am
Tom says, ” I’d also bet a large percentage of the people trashing Mr. Bisher are too young to really remember the Braves of the 90’s when winning was the only measuring stick. The Braves used to produce players who came to the majors and helped win division championships every year. That’s not the case anymore. Many of the best prospects were traded away for short term players who didn’t really make much of a difference. ”
The Braves ufarm system used to produce players in the 90’s who won champioships? You mean guys like Smoltz, McGriff, Pendleton, Lonnie Smith, Maddux, Alejandro Pena, Leibrandt, Galleraga, Grissom, Bream, Sheffield, Neagle, Belliard, Jason Schmidt…
Bank Walker, Texas Ranger
May 3rd, 2009
8:34 am
Enter your comments here
Bank Walker, Texas Ranger
May 3rd, 2009
8:38 am
For those that think Furman is old and doesn’t know what he is talking about just go to a G-Braves game. There is nothing there except Hanson. 5 or 6 prospects in the entire farm system does not make a great system. Furman is exactly right, we gave too much for 1 year wonders, Drew, Tex and I believe we gave away our top catching prospect this year (Flowers). Check out Baseball America’s top 100 prospects. Atl has about 4or 5 and only 1 of those is above A ball.
Bank Walker, Texas Ranger
May 3rd, 2009
8:40 am
uhh Glove51, Schmidt did come through the system
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May 3rd, 2009
8:56 am
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LivininAL
May 3rd, 2009
9:05 am
Teams can develop players down on the farm and groom them through the arbitration period. The deep pockets of some owners changed the game
concerning keeping players from the farm. With a limited payroll, trading becomes the option to acquire talent. Trading seems similar to going to the used car lot,you can get some real clunkers. Spending 7 million for an unproven oriental pitcher with no fast ball will prove to be a mistake. Also, I see a trend of not putting the best team on the field, but playing based on what a player is being paid producing or not. No power, no stealing, no moving runners is diappointing, seems the Braves just stand around for 9 innnings to see what will happen wiht no thought of making something happen.
Outhoused
May 3rd, 2009
9:30 am
Classiness, a thing of the past? Furman Bisher has it and the majority if the a$$70!es on here think it is a place to go to sleep before they dropped out of school…
Keith Warren
May 3rd, 2009
9:48 am
Haha. “Outhoused”, you make a comment about class and then make a total “classless” comment.
Well, we finally got rid of Terrence Moore. Now, if that senile old fart Furman Bisher would just retire and go away….
JD
May 3rd, 2009
9:59 am
Blank – if you’re going to cite Baseball America, then you have to consider that they ranked Atlanta’s farm team 6th out of 30. As for the players at A ball, Freman, Heyward, Rohrbough, and Locke will be in AA Mississippi very soon, with a shot at being on the team in 2019.
JD
May 3rd, 2009
10:04 am
Some of you guys will defend Furman Bisher to the death. It’s okay to disagree, people…you don’t always have to have your nose up his butt.
Mr. Bisher could write an article petitioning MLB to make players moonwalk to first base when they get a BB, and you’d be like “Great article, Mr. Bisher! It shows that you’re trying to keep baseball contemporary. Ignore everyone saying that it’s a stupid idea. They don’t know what they’re talking about.”
Jeff R
May 3rd, 2009
10:19 am
I’m with Furman. The Wainwright deal was narrow-sighted. Giving up a very promising pitcher for “Just the Dough” Drew does still irk and hurt. Plain dumb.
Dumber still was the swap that brought Super Tex to the Bravos. As mentioned, the Braves surrender five bona fide talents for the laughable idea that a 1B was going to help them cinch a post season berth. Laughable because it was the pitching that needed bucking up in ‘07.
Perez is a legit talent with a lot of up side. Salty, despite what the team said could have been converted to 1B. Elvis is a solid defensive SS; Escobar could have been positioned to take over 3B from the oft-injured Chipper. Advantage, Rangers.
I think the front office in the waning days of JS as GM thought it had a magic touch after a 14 season run as division champs. In other words, they could do no wrong.
But management got away from two rules that made that run possible: 1) build from the farm up; 2) build with pitching.
Dumb, just plain dumb.
Real Fan
May 3rd, 2009
10:51 am
Why get excited over a farm system with “promise” when Frank Wren will deal those prospects away for some washed up slugger or player in his free agent year? If we had not traded for Texeira we would be reaping the rewards of our farm and positioned for another long run. This team is mediocre at best !
glove51
May 3rd, 2009
11:06 am
Bank Wlaker: re Schmidt – you’re correct my mistake. So, Ok that’s 1 out of 14 I listed, and I could have listed 10-12 more easily.
As to the lack of talent at Gwinnett: [A] you’re wrong — they probably have the best starting pitching in AAA, especially if Reyes goes back. Ever heard of Kris Medlen or Charlie Morton? [b} the top prospects usually spend little tiem in AAA these days. Many jump straight from AA, especially non-pitchers.
Jonathan Davidoff
May 3rd, 2009
11:12 am
The problem is not the farm system, it is the people in the front office who are giving the farm system away for rental players. When we traded for Tex, we were not going to win it all and everyone knew Tex was a one year rental because he was NOT going to give a hometown discount. But Tex was just one of a line of really bad trades for rental players that everyone knew we would not keep.
The Sheffield trade was for a rental.
The JD Drew trade was for a rental.
The Kyle Davies trade was for a rental.
The Renteria trade was for a rental (that being Renteria from Boston for Andy Marte).
The Vaazquez trade is just a rental and will show to be a tremendous loss for the Braves.
Bottom line is we have tremendous talent in the minors and not such great talent in the front office.
Tomas
May 3rd, 2009
11:27 am
Mr. Bisher, do you even follow the Braves. The Braves have two of the top 10 prospects in baseball. They say Tommy Hanson could be the next Jake Peavy, and they say Jayson Heyward is Darril Strawberry without the baggage. That’s talent. Look at Jordan Schafer. He has shown great speed,a great arm, occasional power, a good eye. Not only that, they have Kris Medlen, Jeffrey Locke(who by the way has two no hit bids in a row). Cody Johnson, the next Ryan Howard and Adam Dunn, already has 9 homers in 23 games. Not to mention Freddy Freeman the top offensive performer in the Braves’ Minor League system.
So please Bisher stop it, do you’re homework. The only reason they signed Derek Lowe and Kawakami and traded for Javier Vazquez, is because Tommy Hanson doesn’t have any big league experience, and the Braves need to take it slow make sure they don’t rush they’re players.
rich brave
May 3rd, 2009
11:30 am
ANDERSON out, SCHAFER in. I don’t think either ready or capable of sustaining the lead-off spot at this point. In time, I believe both capable of doing so. Tweedle-dum, tweedle-dee as far as I am concerned. Although, I think ANDERSON is one years’ experience closer than SCHAFER to achieving that goal. But I believe SCHAFER will be the bigger talent.
I fear that what you see is what you get where KELLY JOHNSON is concerned. I have come to the opposite conclusion of the venerable MR. BISHER in his regard. Although I wish to see him in the line-up. I would prefer him in the 7th or 8th slots. He has now had extensive experience at the top of the batting order, and does not appear comfortable there. He does appear more at ease lower down in the order however. I certainly would be interested in seeing some historical figures on his batting results in the 1-2 slots vs. the 7-8 slots. Aloha from the road.
Tomas
May 3rd, 2009
11:40 am
And I didn’t mention Jair Jurrjens, who is a very talented pitcher at the age of 23.
Yes the Adam Wainwright trade was stupid, but trading Andy Marte for Edgar Renteria was great(Andy Marte is currently without a team), and then trading Renteria for Jurrjens and Gorkys was brilliant.
PJ
May 3rd, 2009
12:15 pm
Furman, You should have taken the buyout with everyone else.
TampaGator
May 3rd, 2009
12:37 pm
The Braves gave away talent to the Rangers, but Andrus was not going to play in Atlanta with Escobar as SS. Salty was not going to beat out McCann. Harrison was not pitching well when he was traded. The pitcher, Neifi Perez, should not have been thrown into that deal. That was the only mistake in that trade. Wainright for Drew was a good deal at the time. The Braves had good pitching then and Wainright was a couple of years away from being a ML starter. The Braves did not even see him as a starter in the ML at the time. The Braves ML system is loaded right now with talent, Mr. Bisher, and the Braves refused to trade much of it this past winter, especially Hanson, Medlen, Heyward, and Freeman. So the future is bright with what is down on the farm and I pray the Braves do not panic and trade any of it. Build for the future…don’t trade for the present, please.
Thomas
May 3rd, 2009
12:38 pm
Another awful article by FB. Seriously why does this guy still have a job.
If the Braves system has dried up then at least 80% of the rest the league (of whom we are consistantly ranked higher than in terms of farm strengthy) have gone completely and utterly barren.
The whole premise of this pile of word-vomit is insulting to my intelligence, not to mention the racist undertones.
coachgb
May 3rd, 2009
12:45 pm
What a crap blog! You guys must be total idiots! When Mr. Bisher says that the Farm system has dried up and all of you argue that the Braves lineup is full of Braves Farm system players, take a look people, the Braves are a .500 team at best and have been for the last several seasons! The guys playing now might all be from the system but look how they are playing! If you eat dirt from your front yard, its still dirt!
bvillebaron
May 3rd, 2009
12:48 pm
JF:
You are right, Mr. Bisher has FORGOTTEN. He has a valid point about the Texeira fiasco, but otherwise he has no clue. According to almost the rest of the baseball world, the Braves have some of the best prospects in the game and one of the best farm systems. To rationalize his point by arguing that the Braves should have kept Josh Anderson (26) rather than Jordan Schafer (22) is assinine. Anyone who thinks Anderson has a better long term future than Schafer needs a reality check. By the way Furman, a lot of people think Schafer can probably steal 20 plus bases–if Cox ever lets him.