Bring ROTC back to Harvard and Yale

Starting with protests over the war in Vietnam and continuing through protests over the discriminatory “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy, many of the nation’s most exclusive colleges and universities barred ROTC from their campuses. (You may recall that some conservatives held that against Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan during her confirmation hearings; as the dean of Harvard’s law school, she had argued in favor of the policy.)
It’s time for Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia and those other elite universities to bring back ROTC. Some college presidents — and military officials — have argued that too few students at those top universities would be interested in military careers to make opening an ROTC office cost-effective. From The NYT:

Eileen M. Lainez, a Defense Department spokeswoman, said Monday that it would be “premature to speculate” on plans for new R.O.T.C. units.

Diane H. Mazur, a law professor at the University of Florida and a former Air Force officer, said she doubted whether the military would reinstate the R.O.T.C. at Ivy League colleges because it is expensive to operate there, particularly for the relatively few number of students the services are likely to recruit.

“I think the military is much more persuaded by output, is much more persuaded by economic efficiency,” Ms. Mazur said.

Drew Faust, the president of Harvard, said over the weekend that she was looking forward to “pursuing discussions with military officials and others to achieve Harvard’s full and formal recognition of R.O.T.C..” . .
The Student Affairs Committee of the Columbia University Senate, a policy-making body of students, faculty members, administrators, alumni and others, said Monday that it had formed a Task Force on Military Engagement to consider whether the university should formally participate in the R.O.T.C.

Before making any decision, the committee said, it would conduct an opinion survey and hold hearings on the issue. The committee’s chairman, Tao Tan, said the process would be driven by students, rather than faculty members.

Several Columbia students said this week that while they would not object to the return of the R.O.T.C., they did not expect their classmates to show much interest in military careers.

“Most people come here to have a specific career,” said Alex Gaspard, 18, who hopes to go to law school. “Investment bankers or lawyers.”

Regardless, it is in the nation’s best interest to include among its military officers as many of the best-educated leaders as it can find. And some of those can be harvested from colleges such as Harvard and Yale.
There has been much concern, over recent decades, that the all-volunteer Armed Forces is increasingly different from the civilian nation that it serves — more religious, more conservative. (I’m not so sure that’s true, given the Pentagon’s survey on “Don’t Ask,” which showed that most troops were quite comfortable with having gays and lesbians serve openly.) One of the ways to ameliorate that trend is to be sure that the officer corps is recruited broadly, including recruitment from the elite universities.
— by Cynthia Tucker

360 comments Add your comment

granny godzilla

December 22nd, 2010
8:20 am

What a marvelous idea! A well educated officer corps!

It’s a good thing.

Billyboy

December 22nd, 2010
8:26 am

Everybody should be able to agree with you on this!

Good Grief

December 22nd, 2010
8:35 am

CT – I know that you and I don’t often see eye-to-eye, but I agree with you on this… to an extent. Having recently been in the university system of Georgia and having friends in other university systems around the nation, I’ve seen first hand (as well as read the reports from my friends) a rather disdainful stance taken by professors regarding our military. Considering that many of the younger students at these universities are still in the ’shapeable’ mind range, I think this is a step that the organizers of an ROTC should take carefully.

Peadawg

December 22nd, 2010
8:37 am

“Some college presidents — and military officials — have argued that too few students at those top universities would be interested in military careers to make opening an ROTC office cost-effective.”

They could give it a try but those college presidents and military officials are probably right on this one. Most students go to those uppity colleges to be lawyers, doctors, etc. But like I said…give it a try.

Tychus Findlay

December 22nd, 2010
8:38 am

I…..agree…..?

dougmo2

December 22nd, 2010
8:40 am

While I agree with this article your premise is wrong. Young adults do not wish to go to an elite school to join ROTC.

And Granny, are you implying that we do not now have a well educated officer corps? All of the officers over me were very smart people.

carlosgvv

December 22nd, 2010
8:42 am

You are absoutely correct on this. The students should be the ones to decide whether they want to consider a military career or a least do a tour of duty. Our military needs as many well educated officers as it can get. Colleges should not be dominated by either liberal or conservative thinkers. The whole idea of college is to learn to think for yourself and having the ROTC option is a good step in that direction. I spent two years in ROTC in college and it was a very worthwhile experience.

Keep Up the Good Fight!

December 22nd, 2010
8:44 am

uppity colleges? Yes, just remember the next time you go to your doctor that a degree from a uppity college is not nearly as good as a online degree from Univ of Phoenix.

Other than an unnecessary attack on colleges, some of which have been around longer than this country, I remember seeing ROTC on campus in my day. Vietnam was still fresh but diversity and opportunity is rarely bad. They should have the opportunity to return to campuses.

T-Town

December 22nd, 2010
8:44 am

With an AP report showing that over 23 percent of new serviceman and women failing the military entrance exam, there is no better time than the present to bring it back.

Sid Farcas

December 22nd, 2010
8:46 am

WOW tuck, you wrote something that I finally agreed with! It’s a Festivus miracle! You are still a liberal hack but, you done good here. Have a Merry Christmas Tuck and remember, rather you, Granny, or Kamchak the Slapnut likes it or not the Tea Party is not going away. We are only growing.
See ya’ next year!

granny godzilla

December 22nd, 2010
8:47 am

dougmo2

No. But it occurs to you. Why?

Jimmy62

December 22nd, 2010
8:48 am

I would debate whether the education offered at Harvard is really all that superior to that offered at a school like Georgia Tech, or the University of Texas. That said, the people that go to Harvard think of themselves as elite, and their nepotist impulses have created a ruling class that is majority Ivy League. Like it or not, that’s the way it is right now. And we should do all we can to make sure those “elites” stay grounded and stay connected to the military. The last thing is we need is an entire polity that couldn’t care less about the military.

Also, DADT is their stated reason for getting rid of ROTC, so now that DADT is gone, they either reinstate ROTC, or admit they are liars and just don’t like the military.

JimW

December 22nd, 2010
8:50 am

Granny, Many colleges and universities turn out well-educated graduates who would make fine officers, if they choose to join the Armed Services.

I do agree that ROTC should be brought back to the elite Ivy League schools to see how it goes. The results may be pleasantly surprising, but like Peadawg I’m concerned that it may turn out to be cost-prohibitive if the programs only attract a handfull of officer candidates.

godless heathen

December 22nd, 2010
8:52 am

I recall Charles Winchester III, a Harvard Man, served his country well in Korea. We need more of that commitment from the Blue Bloods.

kayaker 71

December 22nd, 2010
8:54 am

Granny,

What an elitist statement. After serving in the military for nearly 35yrs, it is apparent to me that the officer corps is well educated as a whole and certainly more so than the average. Most officers are not commissioned until they have a degree or the equivalent. A lot of the most promising in the officer corps are sent for advance degrees to upper crust educational facilities, ie Harvard, Columbia, etc. David Patraeus has a PhD in world politics. So don’t pass judgment on them. They are probably some of the finest Americans that we have, serving in thankless jobs at a pay scale that is much lower than their civilian equivalents.

JohnnyReb

December 22nd, 2010
8:54 am

The Military should save their money and NOT reopen offices at the liberal indoctrination centers. It will be an extremely short period after the 2012 elections put a Conservative in the White House that the self-crowned elites once again find some reason to oppose the recruitment centers. Besides, their absence appears to be having no affect.

ctucker

December 22nd, 2010
8:54 am

Good Grief@8:35, I’ve seen the disdain of the military from some members of the academy, too — even though some of the brightest young people I’ve ever met were students at the service academies. (I used to serve on a committee to judge applicants for the Rhodes Scholarship; the service academies always prepared their applicants very well.)

granny godzilla

December 22nd, 2010
8:57 am

kayaker 71

boy you can read more into a casual comment than Liz Smith or Army Archerd.

Lighten up dude.

JohnnyReb

December 22nd, 2010
8:58 am

BTW, reinstating the Draft would cure a whole boatload of social problems. If you have been in the military you understand that statement. If you don’t understand the statement, you could be in the group that needs the training.

granny godzilla

December 22nd, 2010
8:59 am

JohnnyReb

I would support a year or two of national service for all.

TnGelding

December 22nd, 2010
8:59 am

I agree with the Pentagon; too expensive with little interest; a waste of time and money

Our armed forces are the best educated and trained members of our society. When a general retires after 30 years they would have spent many of those years sitting in a classroom.

kayaker 71

December 22nd, 2010
8:59 am

Granny,

How would like to enlighten us on your “casual comment”? You sound like Bozo when he says, “I really didn’t mean to say that”. Tell us what you really meant to say.

JohnnyReb

December 22nd, 2010
9:00 am

Granny, I’m not sure your vision of National Service equals Military Service.

Joel Edge

December 22nd, 2010
9:02 am

I would suspect, since DADT has been trashed, these colleges now have been given an “out”. ROTC pays for an education and these colleges than have dissed the military can smell the money. I would give these institutions the same respect that they have handed the military for years.
I don’t think I want a Bill Clinton or Barrack Obama as my platoon leader. Although, Barry does seem to be butter-bar material.

Flyin' Bryan...USAF

December 22nd, 2010
9:04 am

Well educated officer corps? I don’t give a crap if you can explain to me quantum physics while in the heat of battle…I only care about you being able to take out the enemy with your firearm at 50 yards, sir/ma’am…

“Educated officer”…that’s an oxymoron if I ever heard one!

granny godzilla

December 22nd, 2010
9:05 am

JohnnyReb

For those for whom military service is appropriate that would be one of the options, for those who wouldn’t fit that mold, there would be other options.

Joel Edge

December 22nd, 2010
9:05 am

granny godzilla@8:59
“I would support a year or two of national service for all.”
I think you would get a bigger fight over that than DADT. Generally speaking, most service members in my group remember the draft days, and are not interested.

granny godzilla

December 22nd, 2010
9:06 am

Kayaker 71

I meant a well educated officer corps is a marvelous idea.

You have a problem with THAT?

TnGelding

December 22nd, 2010
9:06 am

We simply can’t afford an all-volunteer army and the dependents it brings with it. Young, unmarried men were meant to die in unnecessary wars declared by foolish “leaders.” The damage to society by the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan will endure for generations, even though the number of casualties are relatively few.

granny godzilla

December 22nd, 2010
9:08 am

Joel

There are things worth fighting for.

So would you or wouldn’t you like to see everyone do a year or two of national service or not?

Your post doesn’t say.

dougmo2

December 22nd, 2010
9:08 am

“What a marvelous idea! A well educated officer corps!”

That’s why Granny, next stupid question .

Good Grief

December 22nd, 2010
9:09 am

godless @ 8:52 – nice. We needed a M*A*S*H reference today.

CT @ 8:54 – I understand. I went to NGCSU, the military college in Dahlonega, for my undergrad studies. I was in classes with cadets who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan. Even though some of the professors were quite petulent about their service, some of these men and women were the brightest at the school, even after sacrificing to serve this country, many still held an amazingly positive outlook.

As an aside, CT, even for all the disagreement we’ve had, Merry Christmas to you and yours, and Happy New Year. God Bless.

joe

December 22nd, 2010
9:11 am

I so trust Bubba with an M16 in his hands than say…Winston Bradbury Howell III. I’d also trust Bubba’s instinct on the battlefield to lead a battalion against an enemy over the “smarts” of Winston any day of the week. Same could be said for that of Bonnie Lou over that of Buffy.

TnGelding

December 22nd, 2010
9:13 am

granny godzilla

December 22nd, 2010
9:06 am

You’d better familiarize yourself with the workings of our military. If anything, a lot of money is wasted on educating troops that will be killed. When a unit is called up for deployment the first thing it does is start training anew. It also has the toughest, fairest and most competitive promotion policies in the world. If you don’t produce, you don’t get promoted and will probably end up being discharged in the not too distant future.

Van Jones

December 22nd, 2010
9:13 am

Amen, Sister!

JohnnyReb

December 22nd, 2010
9:15 am

Granny, I think you would find the ones that don’t fit the military mold are the ones that need the traning most.

Joel Edge

December 22nd, 2010
9:15 am

granny godzilla@9:08
“and are not interested.”
What does that say to you? I came in after the tail-end of the draft and the quality of recruits were less than satisfactory. The things worth fighting for; will be fought for, without a draft.

Honest Broker

December 22nd, 2010
9:15 am

To T-Town, “With an AP report showing that over 23 percent of new serviceman and women failing the military entrance exam, there is no better time than the present to bring it back.”

I believe this report was about high school folks taking the entrance exam. Those in the service essentially passed the exam.

TnGelding

December 22nd, 2010
9:18 am

Thanks, Broker, I missed that misrepresentation. I was aware of what the article had stated, tho.

jt

December 22nd, 2010
9:21 am

Hank Paulson, Bernake, Obama,George Bush,…………

all products of Harvard.

God help us.

Beretverde

December 22nd, 2010
9:21 am

Why should the rich and elite of the Ivy League share the burden? The elite pay their fair shares in taxes and that is enough! My god EVERYONE knows you can’t get rich in the military. Besides, why should one sacrifice oneself, when the lower classes can do it for them? Now that Vietnam memory is fading, the Ivy Leaguers are shaking in their boots now that they can’t hide behind the Don’t Ask Don’t Tell lie (congress induced not military).

It’ll be a cold day in hell when I see Harvard-Columbia-Brown students serving this country!

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
9:22 am

hey Godless….Charles was drafted and ended up at Tokyo General Hospital…..it was only after he made an ass of himself by destroying a General while playing poker did he end up in a M.A.S.H…….

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
9:23 am

Granny Godzilla:

Do you have any teas leaves or chicken bones I can borrow? Everyone else seems to be using them to “interpret” your posts and I’m feeling a bit left out. Or maybe I’m just stupid because I took what you wrote at face value without trying to add my own words to it.

I agree with your 2 year service idea. Those who can’t serve in the military because of religious or moral convictions against military service, could serve in the Peace Corps or some other similar humanitarian group (WHO comes to mind).

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
9:23 am

As a currently serving officer, I would rather NOT see ROTC reinstated at these schools. They were ready to abandon the nation and its military when they didn’t agree politically, and the Armed Services were able to build the finest officr corps in its history without them. Now that they are happy with the DOD, they want to join the club again? No thank you.

If a graduate from one of these schools wants to serve, they still have a method open to them — enlist and go to OCS.

The alarm clock is ringing now.WAKE-UP you fools

December 22nd, 2010
9:24 am

It will not matter whether the members of our military are gay or not, untill we start seeing the openly gay members come back in body bags. The liberal people of this country will say that, this is wrong. We cannot let our gay members be the ones getting killed.
Now we are wanting to put ROTC offices in the most liberal schools in this country. I agree we need to give our young people a chance to advance in our military as soon as they are ready to join.
If we do not train our young people to stand up and protect this country from our enemies. The problem is, our enemies are some of the same people that are teaching them before they get to the age for ROTC to train. Our president spoke of his own military that will be stronger and better funded than our military we know of today. We let him be elected by people that could do nothing more than mark one spot on a ballet. The only time in their lives they ever voted. Many of them use a lamp post marking as a address to get a voting card. Our president is destroying our national dafence with this treaty he is ramming through now. There is nothing one person can do with his own opinion. All we do here is give our opinions. It will take only a few to finish destroying this country and it will take the greater part of this country to save it from ourselves. This country is going to have to change from a for me, to me, only me group of people to a for us, to us, all of us to do it place for the people.
Marry Christmas to all of you and if you are not into that Mary whatever you belive in. Just remember one thing, in the end, we all will end up in the same place. HISTORY.

Keep Up the Good Fight!

December 22nd, 2010
9:27 am

And Granny, are you implying that we do not now have a well educated officer corps? All of the officers over me were very smart people

Of course when I read the above, I took it as a commentary implying that the armed forces had educated smart officers and dumb troops. Why do some people imply that our troops are so much dumber than officers? Enjoy your witch hunt….

Joel Edge

December 22nd, 2010
9:27 am

fred@9:23
“I agree with your 2 year service idea. Those who can’t serve in the military because of religious or moral convictions against military service, could serve in the Peace Corps or some other similar humanitarian group (WHO comes to mind).”

Agreed. plenty of options for those who feel the calling to serve humanity. Especially for those that feel antsy about uniforms, rules, discipline, and nasty dangerous weapons.

Dan

December 22nd, 2010
9:27 am

It’s a no brainer,not only could the military benefit from the well educated, but the “elite” academic society could benefit just as much from some of their ilk serving in the military. Not to mention the fact that to do otherwise is hypocritical

Pablo

December 22nd, 2010
9:27 am

If I were to pay for the type and quality of the education I received in the military, I could be easily speaking in tens of thousands of dollars. Our military officers are THE best trained in the world, and they have to be college graduates to begin with. But, who is going to consider joining ROTC in an ivy league school, when all they hear from the mouths of people who would not be able to recognize anything military in nature even if it came and slapped them in the face is that the military is the scum of the earth?

Dan

December 22nd, 2010
9:29 am

Pablo thats why I believe it would be a good idea, it may work towards changing the ignorant attitude you speak of. They are all for tolerance as long as it is their perception

Straight Talk

December 22nd, 2010
9:29 am

MIracles do happen at Christmas. CT is making sense.

granny godzilla

December 22nd, 2010
9:30 am

Fred

You are one of the bright spots here…and I appreciate you.

Perhaps next week I’ll just ask Kayaker or Joel to transcibe my posts
in Republispeak…just for fun.

Good Grief

December 22nd, 2010
9:32 am

markie mark – Charles ended up at the 4077 as a result of cribbage debts, not poker debts

cgatlanta

December 22nd, 2010
9:34 am

Cynthia, your opinion on this really doesn’t matter. It is up to the PRIVATE schools in question.

moddyd

December 22nd, 2010
9:34 am

I talked to some friends who are serving this weekend and they stated that it does not bother them at all. It’s not like all of a sudden boot camps are going to be bathhouses. While the members of the military do tend to be more conservative I think its a more true form of conservative as opposed to right wing bible thumping conservatives that I have grown to dislike and have made me a libertarian.

Joel Edge

December 22nd, 2010
9:35 am

granny godzilla@9:30
“transcibe my posts
in Republispeak…just for fun.”
My mistake, so you don’t support a draft. Just national service. My bad. And how would this national service be implemented. Volunteer? We have that already. Care to elaborate?

Death of the Dollar

December 22nd, 2010
9:37 am

Ha ha ha, fools, the Pentagon is bankrupting America.

TommyJack

December 22nd, 2010
9:38 am

Hell hath frozen over, CT.

WDE

December 22nd, 2010
9:40 am

I don’t disagree on what you are saying, but I think their stance on barring ROTC in the first place is very disturbing.

ctucker

December 22nd, 2010
9:40 am

cgatlanta@9:34, I suppose that applies to every comment on this site

Pablo

December 22nd, 2010
9:40 am

Dan:

I also think that it is a good idea. The problem lies in the need to make the problem cost effective, and therefore viable in these universitites. As long as the liberal academia keeps talking about what they obviously know nothing about, they will keep many young men and women away from what could be a very good career path in their lives.

GT/MIT

December 22nd, 2010
9:41 am

Had it not been for the ROTC program it would never have been possible for a middle Georgia country boy such as I, to attend one of the top rated engineering schools on the planet. It was also the genesis of a long career in aviation, which unfortunately included an interlude in the tropical paradise of Viet Nam, and lated afforded me the opportunity to continue my education at another great institute in the Northeast.

The ROTC program can be a pathway to success for those who might be disadvantaged and so inclined. Not to mention the honor of serving our great country.

ctucker

December 22nd, 2010
9:41 am

alarm@9:24, We’ve already had countless gay and lesbian service members come back in body bags. I suppose your alarm failed to go off when that happened.

Henry

December 22nd, 2010
9:42 am

I can’t believe I agree with Cynthia Tucker on something.

StJ

December 22nd, 2010
9:43 am

The Ivy League snobs used Vietnam and DADT as excuses to bar ROTC from campus, now the excuse is “it’s not cost effective”. If it were to be proven that it is cost effective, they’d come up with another excuse.

Even though I agree with the topic, the fact is that the people in charge of the Ivy League schools hate the military (the same military that protects their little fiefdoms, and the rest of us, from our enemies), plain and simple.

granny godzilla

December 22nd, 2010
9:43 am

Joel

“My mistake, so you don’t support a draft. Just national service.”

This is a perfect example of republispeak.

Never said any such thing.

Why do I waste my time on you Joel?

stands for decibels

December 22nd, 2010
9:44 am

mornin’.

in an ivy league school, [...] all they hear from the mouths of people who would not be able to recognize anything military in nature even if it came and slapped them in the face is that the military is the scum of the earth

I think the presuppositions from some here about what surely must go on at those fancy-pants Ivy League schools is kinda funny.

maybe it’s just me.

Joel Edge

December 22nd, 2010
9:44 am

ctucker@9:40
He’s probably right. I think what matters is the Pentagons opinion. Like your blog said, they’re not interested because of the little return they’ll get in Ivy League colleges.

TnGelding

December 22nd, 2010
9:46 am

Well, it appears to me that OUR military is too busy protecting other countries to be that concerned about us. Hoodlums with box cutters and pirates run amok despite our wasteful spending and emphasis on “national defense.”

TheAtleeAppeal

December 22nd, 2010
9:47 am

CT

Believe it or not, I can agree with you on this. We can only hope that if ROTC programs are put back on these campuses, the extremely anti-military teachers and administrators in the Ivy Leages do not discourage students from joining.

I personally don’t see a problem with anyone volunteering for military service if they are gay. The issue some military commanders brought to the table regarding DODT is that they worried gay servicemen/women would end up being more vocal about their sexual orientation than showing their loyalty strictly to the country they swore to defend. I can kind of see a point in that regard considering how open and in-the-face some gay-rights groups are, but I don’t think it will be much of a problem for the military. Whether you are gay or not, it takes a lot of courage to volunteer for duty.

dw

December 22nd, 2010
9:47 am

cynthia,
now you can spin for more fashionable uniforms. the next great injustice that cynthia will correct.

Joel Edge

December 22nd, 2010
9:47 am

granny godzilla@9:43
And I quote: “I would support a year or two of national service for all.”
Why do you waste your time on me?

Hootinany Yum Yum

December 22nd, 2010
9:47 am

granny godzilla writes at 8:20 am

“What a marvelous idea! A well educated officer corps!

It’s a good thing.”

One can imply from your comment that you believe Cynthia’s op/ed is the first time anyone has considered the idea of a “well educated officer corps,” and that a well educated officer corp can only be achieved by the inclusion of “elite” schools.

Your ignorance, as well as Ms. Tucker’s, never ceases to amaze me.

Granny, you remind me of one of those little Pac-Man images chasing after everything Cynthia posts. Of course, that’s an insult to Pac-Man images everywhere…

I's the One who says when Its Quittin Time at Tara

December 22nd, 2010
9:47 am

All I know is, if the blue bloods have to go to war, there’ll be less wars, can I get a amen from the congregation

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
9:48 am

aha Good…..I knew he PO an officer playing cards…forgot the game….

TGT

December 22nd, 2010
9:48 am

Let’s bring back the truth about homosexuality:

-A twenty-five to thirty-year decrease in life expectancy

-Extremely promiscuous sexual activity

-20 times more frequent use of methamphetamine

-Primary and secondary syphilis that is more than 46 times that of other men and more than 71 times that of women

-A much higher rate of gonorrhea, various forms of hepatitis, and anal and genital warts

-HIV diagnoses that is more than 44 times that of other men and more than 40 times that of women

-Frequently fatal rectal cancer

-A much higher than usual incidence of suicide

And so on.

TnGelding

December 22nd, 2010
9:48 am

Sexual misconduct of any kind has to be treated the same in the military or any other workplace.

dw

December 22nd, 2010
9:49 am

cynthia,
you already forgot that we have elite universities for officers – Annapolis, West Point, ….

TnGelding

December 22nd, 2010
9:49 am

Uppity Shmuppity

December 22nd, 2010
9:51 am

It’s OK for the ‘Powers that Be’ at these ‘elite’ universities to simply admit they are anti-military (i.e., intolerant) and move on. Their crushing of free speech (in the name of liberalism and diversity) have made that more than apparent. And Ms. Kagan was more or less caught in that lie during confirmation hearings…she gave elusive, namby pamby legalistic answers rather than truthful ones and was careful to never give her reasons for supporting the colleges’ discriminatory actions. But avoiding giving your opinion is one of the whole things about the SCOTUS dance, correct?

Some people might forget that someone who goes through ROTC does not pay for tuition, correct? Wouldn’t that attract some people to (not necessarily “at”) Harvard, Yale, etc.? Those institutions have nothing on Annapolis, West Point, or Colorado Springs, although they might think they do.

Kate De Braose

December 22nd, 2010
9:52 am

George Bush went to Yale, as did his father before him. Not to Harvard.

Keep Up the Good Fight!

December 22nd, 2010
9:52 am

Stands…Leave my fancy pants out of this. I will not have the good name of Faber College brought into the muck.

Douglas C. Neidemeyer

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
9:54 am

TGT

December 22nd, 2010
9:48 am

Let’s bring back the truth about homosexuality:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Could you site that source please? I’ve seen that list twice now and neither time was a source cited.

If that list is true, it “confirms” for me more than ever that homosexuality is not a “choice.” I mean who in the hell would CHOSE those risks? Not to mention the social outcast status that usually goes along with it……………..

TGT

December 22nd, 2010
9:58 am

Sources were referenced before here.

TheAtleeAppeal

December 22nd, 2010
9:59 am

Fred..

People choose to drink and drive, shoot themselves up with heroin, jump off of bridges…etc. Does this confirm to you that nobody choses to do things that everyone knows the risks to?

TGT

December 22nd, 2010
9:59 am

See 6:25 to 6:28 of my above link.

Jimmyd

December 22nd, 2010
10:00 am

Yep, it’s our own Christmas Miracle…I agree with Ms. Tucker on something:-)
Now for the bonus round, what was the previously mentioned Charles Winchester III’s middle name (on MASH)?

james

December 22nd, 2010
10:02 am

granny @ 8:59- I would second that motion. it would go a long way in solving whole lot of issues.

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
10:03 am

dw

December 22nd, 2010
9:49 am

cynthia,
you already forgot that we have elite universities for officers – Annapolis, West Point, ….
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I dunno, I’ve never seen Harvard in the news for a cheating scandal. Can’t say the same thing about West Point or Annapolis. Also you forgot the Air Force Academy. I mean the air force is ALMOST military ………

Joel Edge

December 22nd, 2010
10:05 am

Fred@9:54
“I mean who in the hell would CHOSE those risks?”
Agreed. I would modify that opinion with: who in his right mind…
But I ain’t gonna elaborate.

TGT

December 22nd, 2010
10:07 am

As far as homosexuality “not being a choice,” I hope your not implying that people are “born gay,” i.e. it is genetic.

As Dr. Jeffrey Satinover points out (referencing a 1994 University of Chicago study), “…it is patently false that homosexuality is a uniform attribute across individuals, that it is stable over time, and that it can be easily measured.” Dr. Satinover adds that, “Studies across the globe that have now sampled over 100,000 individuals have found the same. We now know that in the majority of both men and women, ‘homosexuality,’ as defined by any scientifically rigorous criteria, spontaneously tends to ‘mutate’ into heterosexuality over the course of a lifetime.”

These facts support the idea of many that homosexuality is not a genetic and unchangeable behavior. This idea is further supported by the fact that there are, of course, many people who have come out of the homosexual lifestyle. Dr. Satinover continues that, homosexuals are “human beings, no different than you or me, who are, of course, sexual beings. Like you and me, their sexuality is broken in a broken world. The notion that ‘homosexuals’ are in effect a ‘different species’ (different genes) is ludicrous beyond belief. There is not the slightest evidence for that as anyone who actually reads the studies (not reports on the studies) knows.”

Joel Edge

December 22nd, 2010
10:07 am

Fred@10:03
“I mean the air force is ALMOST military ………”
Ouch!. Army veteran?

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
10:07 am

Thanks TGT. I wasn’t suggesting you made it up (it was to definite) I just like to know sources so I can decide if they are reliable. I think we can all agree that the CDC is fairly reliable lol.

Death of the Dollar

December 22nd, 2010
10:08 am

News that has been suppressed: Private Bradley Manning, the traitor who gave away our secrets to wikileaks, is an openly gay service member. Now that is a good reason not to have gays in the military.

The alarm clock is ringing now.WAKE-UP you fools

December 22nd, 2010
10:09 am

The gay and lesbian members in body bags were not out in the open. Now theuy will be. I bet you will never hear the news tell you that. It will not take long untill the military gay pride groups start wanting their rights and protections. You will never see the gay pride marches behind the hearst. It want take long, untill we have congressional hearings about using more gay people in battle than streight people. I do not car one way or the other about gays in the military, just like I was on women rights. If they want to do it, if the can, let them. We are all just a bag of skin and bones waiting to be turned into worm food anyway. It what you do with that bag of skin and bones that matters. In 100 years we all will be just history anyway.

Joel Edge

December 22nd, 2010
10:11 am

Death of the Dollar@10:08
“News that has been suppressed”
Not that suppressed. Coulter had an article on it. It buzzed on my old units group for a while.

lupe

December 22nd, 2010
10:12 am

I’m proud of my adopted Country. We just became a more tolerant nation with the repeal of DADT and the military can add fierce to their lexicon.

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
10:13 am

Joel Edge: :)

TGT: When did YOU choose to be heterosexual?

godless heathen

December 22nd, 2010
10:13 am

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
10:15 am

Death of the Dollar; Either you don’t get out much or you aren’t too bright. The ‘news” that Manning is gay is old hat. Unless I’m mistaken, it was the REASON he gave for being a traitor. DADT.

Joel Edge

December 22nd, 2010
10:15 am

Fred@10:13
We called them the “chairforce”, back in the day.

budman

December 22nd, 2010
10:20 am

Fred your right, the Australians make everyone serve a 2 years commitment, it may be in combat or maybe planting trees along the highways.

Lance

December 22nd, 2010
10:23 am

Dang — as much as I hate to say it — I agree with CT. Unlike you nit-wit liberals us conservatives can admit when we agree with the other side even if it is a socialist like Cynthia.

Jack

December 22nd, 2010
10:23 am

This piece is a feint: a manipulation. One should always watch one’s back when a liberal says something sensible.

dawgs

December 22nd, 2010
10:24 am

CT: How about ultra left, snobbish instead of “EXCLUSIVE & ELITE” ??? Then these “officers” could parrot what they were told by their socialist professors..

Dan

December 22nd, 2010
10:24 am

Actually a good point was made a while back, we already have elite military universities at Annapolis, West Point and Colorado Springs. I Submit the best from those Universities would not only keep up with but likely outshine students from the aforementioned “elite” Universities

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
10:25 am

budman: The Israelis do as well. In Germany all the men used to have to serve 2 years when I was there back in the 80’s.I don’t know if they still do and if they include the women as well now.

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
10:26 am

It depends on if they still cheated or not Dan……..

Pablo

December 22nd, 2010
10:27 am

Stands for decibels:

Nobody told me, I was there to see it. You suppose wrong…

The General Feeling

December 22nd, 2010
10:27 am

People, not all jobs in the military are on the front-lines fighting wars. So yes, every teenager would benefit from at least two years of military experience from completing a vigorous physical boot camp to learning tolerance, teamwork, and adaptability.

Joel Edge

December 22nd, 2010
10:28 am

Fred@10:25
I read somewhere Germany was dumping that policy. Forgot where.

Tilli

December 22nd, 2010
10:29 am

To the folks who said people don’t go to top universities to join ROTC, on the whole you are correct, but that is true with ALL colleges. ROTC makes up a very small % of actual students.

A counter point is one of my high school classmates went to Dartmouth (one of those uppity schools) and was in the Air Force ROTC. He served with distinction after his college days and is a proud veteran.

TheAtleeAppeal

December 22nd, 2010
10:30 am

Fred @10:25

Israel doesn’t really have much a choice in that regard. They are completely surrounded by people who want to “wipe them off of the map” and are very limited in the number of able servicemen/women.

I’m not a fan of the idea of forcing everyone to serve for X number of years in this country. Our population is big enough that we have been able to survive off of an all volunteer armed forces since the Vietnam draft.

killerj

December 22nd, 2010
10:31 am

What an uneducated nation,you deserve what you get.

stands for decibels

December 22nd, 2010
10:31 am

Nobody told me, I was there to see it.

really? you have been to every class, heard everything that every Ivy Leaguer ever hears?

Was this before or after you broke that date with Lois Lane?

Joel Edge

December 22nd, 2010
10:32 am

The General Feeling@10:27
“People, not all jobs in the military are on the front-lines fighting wars.”
These days, the front line can come to you. Quickly. Everyone is a infantryman.

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
10:42 am

Joel – I agree with that last remark. Women are still not offically combat troops last I heard. That ended with this war…check out all the women with m-16’s next time you see news footage. Anybody anywhere in-country these days is subject to attack….

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
10:43 am

and in an age of forced redeployments and extensions, your cushy mechanics job at Hunter Army Airfield in Savannah this week may be Bagrahm AFB next week…..

granny godzilla

December 22nd, 2010
10:46 am

…and in an age of terrorism, your moms and dads and grannys may be
hopping over an airline seat to whack a bomber. To some extent we are all American soldiers….

abc

December 22nd, 2010
10:47 am

This seems to me to be conjecture by people who don’t really know squat about the military, due to never having been in it themselves. 25% or less of Congress has been in the military. I submit that if you haven’t been in the military yourself, you don’t really know a thing about it, and should be disqualified from making any decisions about it.

Having a string of Commanders in Chief that have little or no military experience is another problem.

Reinstatement of the draft would be a wonderful thing. If some of these politicians’ kids were having to go to war too, I seriously doubt they’d jump into such stupidity as we’ve been involved with the past 9 years. That’s twice as long as it took to defeat Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, folks. Putting our troops in needless peril is not support of the troops.

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
10:48 am

and I would be perfectly happy to bring back a version of the CCC or other labor organizations of the 30’s. Build parks, roads, trails, and any other infrastructure we need. For draftees that would only be disruptive in the military, they can contribute this way….I also advocate at least 20 hours a week of this for anyone on unemployment. That way they can pay back our investment in them via a weekly check, and still have time to go on interviews.

Joel Edge

December 22nd, 2010
10:49 am

markie mark@10:42
Yep, served with a few good ones (women, that is), we didn’t allow them to do a lot of things alone. Army policy and PC be da#$%d. They were our buddies and didn’t want them injured. It’s a natural male instinct, sorry.

Joel Edge

December 22nd, 2010
10:51 am

granny godzilla@10:46
“your moms and dads and grannys may be hopping over an airline seat to whack a bomber.”

Can’t be, the system works.

GT/MIT

December 22nd, 2010
10:55 am

@Uppity Shmuppity (or something)

“Some people might forget that someone who goes through ROTC does not pay for tuition, correct? Wouldn’t that attract some people to (not necessarily “at”) Harvard, Yale, etc.? Those institutions have nothing on Annapolis, West Point, or Colorado Springs, although they might think they do.”

It would be correct that the ROTC program pays tuition. One must also consider the students military obligation after graduation as some degree or repayment. In my case it was 5 years, albeit that was a number of years ago.

As to the comparisons of curricula among Ivy League schools and the Military Academies, any answer would be conjecture on my part, but I can say with certainty that the Military Academies are indeed just that.

Kamchak

December 22nd, 2010
10:55 am

I see that our anal obsessed seminarian has arrived to show his ass.

james

December 22nd, 2010
10:56 am

CT- would you mind doing a piece on this “net neutrality” that was adopted yesterday- don’t understand the effects.

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
10:58 am

ABC, you have some valid points, but remember, from the founding of this country our leaders insisted in civilian leadership of the military. It may be an outmoded concept in the 21st century, but that is our tradition. In the 18th century, glory, riches and honor could be won on the battlefield, and the thought was civilians would reign in the Custers and Pattons of the world. Today, the paradigm may have shifted.

That being said, the comparison of todays wars with WWII is not, in my mind, correct. Then, we devoted the majority of our gdp into destroying regimes that would and could take over the world. The Taliban or al quaeda my hurt us, but they cant overrun the US (at least currently). There were no nukes in WW II, no imaginary boundaries that we could not cross (Pakastani border, Loatian border, etc). We pursued the enemy and destroyed them en masse. Today, we basically have a worldwide guerilla war. The concept of “win” is vastly different. We have to power to destroy a country and its government. Do we have the power and the will to be an occupying forces for 30 – 40 years? I dont think that national will is there unless we threatened to a greater degree than we are now. Dont forget, we were officially an Allied Occupying Power in Germany until only 5 or 6 years ago. Germany only payed Britain for the reparations demanded by the British Government from WW I last year. We live in totally different times and attitudes….

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
10:58 am

Cynthia:

A couple of thoughts …………..

1) The officer corps has been doing just fine without participation by “elite” universities. I’ll take a captain from Slippery Rock over Harvard any day of the week.

2) According to the latest CDC statistics 53% of people who have Aids are MSM (men having sex with men). Now figure in the number of gays in the U.S. (some sources say only 2%) and you see who is causing the biggest problem.

3) Why? The anal lining is much thinner than the vaginal lining and is therefore much more liable to rupture and allow the spread of the infection. I GUESS DARWIN WOULD SAY “EVOLUTION” FAILED US THERE.

4) I sure hope the president put a condom on that pen when he signed the repeal of “Don’t Assk, Don’t Tail”. It would be the right symbolic act for legislation that is going to cost the American taxpayer a lot more money in medical expenses for the military.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
11:00 am

Granny at 10:46

You are a “soldierette”.

Ragnar Danneskjöld

December 22nd, 2010
11:00 am

Good morning all. While I admire the plea by our hostess, encapsulated in the title, I think a more honest evaluation requires that we recognize deception where it exists. DADT was a mere fig leaf, to allow the leftist-slanting formerly-premiere universities to discriminate against normal people.

I hold nothing but contempt for the Ivy Leagues schools. My younger son, the genius (freshly-returned from his seven month deployment in the Arabian Sea) applied to several top schools, acknowledging his intention to participate in ROTC. Only three rejected his (pre-essay) 1530 SATs – Harvard, MIT, and Penn, the three Ivy schools where he applied.

Of course, that revelation of discrimination works both ways. With my new-found knowledge that the schools routinely reject well-qualified conservatives, I now feel free to seek out conservative job applicants by excluding those who attended one of those leftist schools.

And for the record, I forecast that Harvard and Yale combined will commission not more than 10 ROTC officers in the next 10 years.

Last Man Standing

December 22nd, 2010
11:01 am

Beretverde:

“It’ll be a cold day in hell when I see Harvard-Columbia-Brown students serving this country!”

There are, of course, exceptions to such a blanket statement. Jack Kennedy served in combat in WWII as did his older brother. Both were graduates of Harvard, if memory serves. I’m sure there are many others who served their country that attended the aforementioned institutions.

I am somewhat numbed by CT’s article. I actually agree with her – and that has NEVER happened before. I think I must consult a doctor!

They BOTH SUCK

December 22nd, 2010
11:03 am

@Ragnor

You do know that some of the most ‘conservative’ bankers come fro these “leftist” schools right?

Did you vote for Bush?

Intown

December 22nd, 2010
11:03 am

I agree. The military has changed a great deal since Vietnam — for the better. It’s time for them to return to Ivy League schools if they wish to do so.

TheAtleeAppeal

December 22nd, 2010
11:06 am

They Both Suck

- IF you were implying Bush is a Conservative –
Bush was anything but a Conservative. “Compassionate Conservate” is just another term for moderate Democrat.

They BOTH SUCK

December 22nd, 2010
11:11 am

@The Atlee

Petrueas has a degree from Princeton…..

I could go on debunking you but it will not make any difference to argue with a fool.

Many people who have been or are in the military have undergrad or graduate degrees from Ivy League schools. Granted it is not the majority but that goes for the entire population as well.

They BOTH SUCK

December 22nd, 2010
11:12 am

Donald Dumsfeld (Rumsfeld) who the right just fawned over during the Bush yrs went to Princeton

They BOTH SUCK

December 22nd, 2010
11:14 am

Dick Cheney who the right seemed to love attended Yale, but has stated that he ‘flunked out’

TheAtleeAppeal

December 22nd, 2010
11:14 am

They Both Suck,

What are you debunking me on? I have said nothing in regards to what Ivy League schools produce in regards to their alumni. I just simply stated George Bush is not a Conservative. The man never saw a spending bill he didn’t like.

Fang1944

December 22nd, 2010
11:14 am

We [Politifact.com] contacted the Harvard Law School Office of Public Information, which provided a breakdown on the number of graduates, by class, who went into the military:

2000 — 0
2001 — 3
2002 — 2
2003 — 2
2004 — 3
2005 — 5
2006 — 3
2007 — 3
2008 — 2
2009 — 2

It doesn’t look as though the students at Harvard are likely to put on a uniform when they can go into a law firm and make a million a year.

Collegeprof

December 22nd, 2010
11:14 am

“It’ll be a cold day in hell when I see Harvard-Columbia-Brown students serving this country!”

Look around you–many of us (the “rich elitists” from Ivy) DO serve–we volunteer, we work for the Peace Corps, we do pro-bono medical and law work in underserved areas, we teach in university systems, we work for non-profits, we serve constituents in Congress, we serve as judges, we work for local, state, and federal government, just to name a few. Don’t forget that these sorts of positions, for the most part, pay far less than corporate jobs!!!

Just because we are educated at private universities does not mean that we are not aware of the needs of society and our country. I would argue that those of us who went to Ivy schools are MORE aware than those who go to public universities. I teach at a public university and I can tell you that my students are far less aware of the importance of service than my Ivy classmates and I were. I never heard anything disparaging about our military, meaning the men and women who serve. Policy? yes. People? no. And before someone jumps in to berate me for being another one of those elitists who is anti military, I am a faculty advisor for a student veterans group on my campus and am very dedicated to making university life for those who served our country a satisfying and useful experience. While I disagree with many of the policies in Iraq and Afghanistan, I fully support those who serve our country. Not all of us in Ivy are liberals–in fact I would say that most are Independent, meaning that we look at the issues one at a time and make our decisions rather than just deciding along party lines.

One cannot put blame on the students and graduates of the Ivy universities because of the decisions that were made by the presidents of those schools decades ago.

And yes, Jimmy62, an education at Ivy is far superior to Georgia Tech–we are taught to think; GAtech trains people to do things.

granny godzilla

December 22nd, 2010
11:15 am

Markie Mark

If civilian leadership is outmoded in the 21st century what is the alternative?

A military that can act on its own?

Is that not an invitation to a junta?

Dave

December 22nd, 2010
11:15 am

It certainly took them long enough to repeal the law passed by Bill Clinton… I didn’t know he hated gays…. ijs.

abc

December 22nd, 2010
11:16 am

It’s beyond obvious that our current war malaise bears no resemblence to WW II. However, the length of time spent at war for WW I, WW II and Korea indicate, to me, the length of time that Americans will tolerate a state of war, and the length of time that the country can afford to maintain a state of war. What results have been achieved, what original goals gained? Not so much, especially when measured against the human and financial costs.

Political leaders with little or no military experience are best advised to leave military matters to the military. Curtis Lemay’s influence in that regard is self-evident — an extreme view, but it worked for a long time. Truman and Eisenhower allowed the military to set that posture. Even at that, Eisenhower warned of the control of the country by an establishment of military industrial complex, and political interest in participating and profiting from it. Politicians screwing up military leadership is what made VietNam what it was, and what we’re conducting in the Mid East these days is very comparable to what we did in Nam: in the end, a very high price to pay for little or no gain, all because of political leadership that didn’t really know what the military and war were all about. The Mid East fiasco is the very portrait of a military industrial complex run completely amuck.

Dave

December 22nd, 2010
11:17 am

So does this mean Elana Kagen can now join up?

williebkind

December 22nd, 2010
11:17 am

Now these Harvard and Yale grads, are they not the ones that bankrupt our country? Its ok they got 100million dollar bonuses. I mean they are Harvard and Yale graduates.

Dave

December 22nd, 2010
11:18 am

I think the repeal of “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” should be called “Show And Tell”….

williebkind

December 22nd, 2010
11:18 am

I would not serve into the “new” military.

The Carnivore

December 22nd, 2010
11:18 am

I went to Duke and graduated from its Army ROTC program. At the time, the program was strong. In the years since, it has shrunk, and bottomed out around the same time of the Duke lacrosse scandal. Notably, this was when the “Group of 88″ professors shamed the university and themselves by jumping to conclusions and forgetting who their customers were.

I would hope that ROTC programs at top schools are able to be reignited to their former glory. This might prove difficult at some places, where “openness of thought” only applies to those who happen to agree.

Dave

December 22nd, 2010
11:20 am

If openly gay/lesbian service members are allowed to shower/bunk with service members of the same sex, I think that male service members should be now allowed to shower/bunk with female service members… ijs…

granny godzilla

December 22nd, 2010
11:20 am

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
11:22 am

Granny, I agree with you…there is no other safe model. But I have tended to notice that when out civilian leaders have rushed “in” in the last 10 years or so, our military leaders have been much more cautious about getting involved. That being said, our military leaders have been trained to win, so when the civilian leaders got cold feet for political reasons and started doing half hearted measures that were stupid, the military leaders would always plan for enough troops and supplies to win, and in some cases it appeared they were the ones trying to “ramp up” the conflict….

Death of the Dollar

December 22nd, 2010
11:22 am

This battalion commander was a Harvard grad: Battle of Ong Thanh – After minor enemy contact the previous day, a battalion commander led some 150 American soldiers single-file into the bush to destroy the enemy. They ran into an NVA regiment with some 1400 men. Alpha company was wiped out in 20 minutes, and by sundown, 59 American soldiers lay dead with 75 wounded. An excellent documentary is on-line where survivors describe the onslaught.

granny godzilla

December 22nd, 2010
11:24 am

markie mark

who’s “rushed in” in the last ten years…I can only think of one guy….

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
11:26 am

Willliebekind:

Each war is different, but one of the main problems in Nam was the heat/humidity and water supply. I think that is much the same (except humidity) in Iraq/Afghanistan. I personally help carry two dead Marines to the medivac chopper who had died from lack of water/heat stroke.

Now that said, we often shared our canteens with each other especially when water was almost non-existant. I’ll tell you right now I would have thought twice about that if I thought the other person had been swapping d***’* and a** with his fighting hole (no pun intended) buddy
the night before.

P.S. The Army calls them “foxholes”. Marines prefer “fighting holes”.

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
11:28 am

Granny, while the Harvard list is nice, it is mostly composed of people from generations when serving the country was considered part of your obligation as an American. I wonder how many of the people on the list were born after, say, 1960.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
11:28 am

Death of the Dollar:

I’d rather have a “mustanger” as my officer any day of the week.

Boehner stole Beck's act. Boo Hoo WORKS!!!

December 22nd, 2010
11:28 am

Dont test. Don’t study. Panty Raids and Frat Pranks are the only training our generals need. It was all Hitler had during Barbarosa, and that turned out okay.

You know, what Tucker is proposing is that we educate gay soldiers and I gotta tell you they don’t need no stinking education. SNAFUS and FUBARS cant be learned. They’re simply the army way.

And that’s all I have to say ’bout that.

Death of the Dollar

December 22nd, 2010
11:30 am

Maybe the Harvard grads can be jet jockies, like these: August 1967 Air Battle – This war produced two American “Ace” fighter pilots (i.e. more than five aerial kills), yet the North Vietnamese had 16, including Nguyen Van Coc was the top Ace of the war with nine kills. On Aug. 23, 1967, Coc led several MIG fighters to intercept a group of 40 American aircraft on a bombing mission. They shot down three American F-4D fighters and one F-105D fighter-bomber without losing a single MIG. Eight American aviators were killed or captured.

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
11:31 am

Scout, you may have to define a mustang…..some people right now are going “huh”?….

Observer

December 22nd, 2010
11:31 am

Granny Godzilla- just another whining liberal without a job. Kinda like chamkak, keep up the good fight, etc. But they shore do a good job of whining.

ricardus

December 22nd, 2010
11:31 am

There is little interest in ROTC at Ivy League schools as generally their clientel are not really “Americans” and they generally oppose anything that’s is considered “American”.
I certainly would not send my grandchildren there.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
11:32 am

No one wants to comment on my 10:58 huh? MSM’s will cost us more money !!

By the way Cynthia, why would you want Harvard in now when the military still discriminates against the too short, the too tall, the skinny, the overweight, etc., etc., etc.

For the record, midgets would be great in tanks and on submarines !!!

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
11:34 am

markie mark:

Their problem! That’s why most of them know “zero” about the real military.

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
11:34 am

Joel @ 1032 — “These days, the front line can come to you. Quickly. Everyone is a infantryman”

I gotta correct you on this…. everyone might used some infantry tasks and drills, but everyone is NOT an Infantryman. :)

RGB

December 22nd, 2010
11:34 am

College prof reminds me again of the old adage “those who can do; those who can’t teach.”

Said person also reminds me of the expression: “Conceit is a weird disease. It makes everyone sick but the individual who has it.”

Death of the Dollar

December 22nd, 2010
11:35 am

More Ivy League officers: Ambush at Hoc Mon – In 1968, 92 American soldiers of C Company, 4th Battalion, 9th Infantry Regiment, 25th Division began a search-and-destroy mission near Saigon. They were looking for a Viet Cong force that had been firing rockets into their Tan Son Nhut Air Base. As they rushed along a road without flank security to catch up with their battalion, they ran into an ambush. Within eight minutes, 49 American soldiers were dead or dying, and 29 were wounded.

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
11:37 am

now Scout, thats just mean….lol….and since its a Marine term, some of the former army guys may not know it either….Mustang = an officer who is promoted from the ranks….cant bs these guys, they were formally the bs’ers themselves….

They BOTH SUCK

December 22nd, 2010
11:38 am

@markie mark

When you take into context the number and size of the typical Ivy League school there isn’t going to many people from an occupation you name in terms of percentages.

That doesn’t go for just the military.

You are more than welcome to cry about Ivy League this or that but the fact remains that people from all political spectrums attend these schools and yes the vast majority come from higher income families…………. but in the end they are still a very small percentage of all people graduating from college

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
11:38 am

God Bless, that may be true in the army, but it aint so of the Marines. You are a rifleman first, everything else is secondary….

granny godzilla

December 22nd, 2010
11:38 am

“Boehner stole Beck’s act. Boo Hoo WORKS!!! ”

Yes, in January we’ll have a new “Weeper” of the House…….

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
11:41 am

Markie Mark – c’mon, you know you Jarheads that graduate from the School of Infantry walk a little taller.

Get informed

December 22nd, 2010
11:41 am

It would really help if you people actually knew anything before spouting of ill informed opinions

Apparently most people are unaware, but there are already existing ROTC detachments at Princeton, Cornell, Penn, & Dartmouth. Harvard students participate in ROTC programs at neighboring MIT (about 1.5 miles down Massachusetts Ave.), and students receive credit for some of the ROTC classes taken at MIT. Yale takes substantial steps to accommodate students who participate in ROTC at other nearby colleges, providing dedicated transportation as well as ROTC advisors.

As someone noted earlier, many of the senior military officers ultimately spend some time in the graduate programs at the Ivies (i.e. Harvard- Kennedy School, Princeton- Woodrow Wilson School, etc.). Point is, there is not as giant a chasm between the military and the Ivies as many people think.

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
11:42 am

They Both….I agree with you…but I was arguing with Granny that while the list is impressive for the accomplishments of the graduates, they graduated in totally different times of what society (even in the upper spectrum) considered desirable. Up until WW 2, the attitude toward the military was reflected in the saying “Dogs and Military, keep off the grass”. Someone in the military prior to WW 2 was considered to have joined so as not to starve in the depression. After WW 2, it was desirable to be former military in order for advancement, political purposes, etc. all the way until Vietnam made the military unpopular again….

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
11:43 am

I should have specified 0300’s that go through the ITB.

Nothing Is Free

December 22nd, 2010
11:52 am

And the fascist take over the internet while the sheep sleep.

And they did it without a single elected official having a voice in the decision. Again, another 1/6th of our economy now in the hands of the federal government.

The largest government takeover since the last largest government takeover and the sheep on Tucker’s Blog are talking about ROTC.

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
11:53 am

TheAtleeAppeal

December 22nd, 2010
10:30 am

I’m not a fan of the idea of forcing everyone to serve for X number of years in this country. Our population is big enough that we have been able to survive off of an all volunteer armed forces since the Vietnam draft.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I don’t know exactly what granny had in mind, but I’m not talking about a draft. Those who wanted to serve in the military could, but the others could serve in more peaceful (yet useful) capacities. Imagine New Orleans after Katrina if there was a force such as I envision ready to repond immediately. instead of guns, they would carry hammers, or food trays, or medicine. Imagine the civil works projects that could be completed. i know it’s a pipe dream, but it would work………

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
11:56 am

Markie Mark:

“You don’t join the Marines. You become one.”

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
11:58 am

Scout, I believe that to be a true statement of all the marines I have met. I have never been one, just a huge admirer thereof.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
11:58 am

Markie Mark:

Looks like “BAM’s” will be back in vogue for our new personnel.

Death of the Dollar

December 22nd, 2010
11:59 am

Dear Fred: Your proposal assumes we owe the government something. Quite the contrary, the government owes us for its very existence, it is there to serve the people. You assume the opposite, that the people are here to serve the government.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
12:00 pm

Markie Mark:

Sounds like you would have made a good one.

Death of the Dollar

December 22nd, 2010
12:02 pm

Here is a proposal to improve the officer corps: Require the GMAT

The area of officer career management is a disaster, yet the problems are complex and will take decades to correct. Meanwhile, Congress should require the GMAT for promotion to O-3, O-4, O-5, and O-6. This is an issue that all Congressmen and staffers can immediately grasp, and can be implemented at no cost. Since it will not affect budgets, force structure, or the careers of O-6s and above, senior officers may not strongly oppose, except because of their institutional principle that change is bad.

This will not fix major problems, but pushing Congress to pass this simple reform will be a major task since the Pentagon has blocked all changes for the past two decades. If reformers force this minor change, it will prove successful and set the stage for more complex and comprehensive reforms.

the original and still the best John Galt

December 22nd, 2010
12:02 pm

I don’t think having ROTC at Harvard and Yale would fly, mainly because the programs would have trouble getting enough students. The attitude throughout society is mostly to let somebody else serve, and that attitude is even more common among the elite. Hence the reason that only about 6 percent of the Congress are veterans. Also the reason that the ongoing conflicts in the Middle East don’t affect a large portion of the populace. Most are indifferent about those wars, because they don’t know anybody who is involved.

An earlier poster claimed that promotion in the sevices is based strictly on performance, and that’s just not true. There are quotas for minorities and women built into the promotion system, and I predict that similar quotas will soon be established to “fully integrate gays into the military.” Much of the Navy, Air Force, and Army are just another form of welfare these days. At least the USMC still has some standards, but the quotas are destroying them too. Just wait until the Marine Corps is forced to be “The Few, the Proud, and the Gay.”

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
12:03 pm

Fred and Death…..the only policy of Charlie Rangel’s that I ever agreed with was his idea to bring back the draft. He was very eloquent when he spoke of how that was the only real place in American society that made citizens of all socio-economic backgrounds work together and truly understand each other. I think he had a point. I dont think it will happen, but it is a good byproduct of military service that he personally experienced…

TheAtleeAppeal

December 22nd, 2010
12:04 pm

Fred @11:53

Death of the Dollar said it pretty well, that we as citizens should not be obligated to work for the government considering we already work between a quarter to over half of the year for free (just to pay taxes in accordance to your tax bracket). Forced public service may sound nice on the surface, but it is not reasonable. There are PLENTY of people who willingly volunteer themselves for community service projects or donate to organizations that perform such services. Then again, that is my opinion.

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
12:05 pm

thank you, scout….while all my grammer school 13 and 14 year old friends were turning up their noses at the military in 73 or 74, I was reading everything I could lay my hands on about WW2. Always honored ‘em, always will.

the original and still the best John Galt

December 22nd, 2010
12:07 pm

“Death of the Dollar,” that’s a great idea. It will never fly, though, because a requirement to score well on the GMAT would disrupt the quota system. Also, 75 percent of all the mid-grade officers currently serving couldn’t pass the GMAT, so the losses would be too great.

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
12:07 pm

No Death of the Dollar. It is YOU who assume. Go back to Boortz, no thinking is required there.

Throughout history, the concept of “earning” your citizenship has been applied. it is still applied today in some Countries. No one gets a free ride.

I actually like Robert Heinlein’s model in Starship Troopers. You don’t HAVE to serve, but only those who do are citizens. only citizens are allowed the right to vote and are able to run for office. Those slugs, (perhaps such as yourself) who refuse to serve also forfeit having a say so in what happens. SO much for your ignorant assumptions.

MY way is like reaping the benefits of an investment. if you don’t invest, you don’t get a dividend. I realize it’s tough for you to think without having a talk show host ’splain it to you, so I will cut you some slack……….

paleo-neo-Carlinist a/k/a Joe the Plutocrat

December 22nd, 2010
12:08 pm

CT (and granny), talk about giving and inch and taking a yard, and the proverbial slippery slope. FIRST you want to allow homosexuals to serve openly, and now you want your officers (and future generals) “edumacated” by pointy-headed intellectuals at preppie, ivy covered insitutions of higher learning? actually, I concur and so does my #2 lord and savior, USMA grad (and Vietnam, Gulf War vet) and Princeton PhD Andrew Bacevich. if not done so, pick up a copy of “The New American Miltarism: How Americans are Seduced by War”. the “service academy” model breeds an insular military, inundated with “ticket punchers” and career “yes” men. if the DoD truly wants to “be all it can be” (stand down, Scout, I know that’s Army speak) or “a few good men” (there, satisfied?) it must look outside the herd to strengthen the herd. anyone who knows “dogs” or “horses” (or 17th and 18th century European monarchies) knows that a linear “family tree” produces a weak species (as the folks who provide the UGA’s for the University of Georgia).

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
12:09 pm

This is going to be a real blow (no pun intended) to the military.

Question:

A very gay man joins the Air Force (he likes blue).
After a few years “he” wants to be a “she”.
Who pays for all of this and the new uniforms?

cosby

December 22nd, 2010
12:12 pm

who cares…but I will say I am not impressed with either school. It seems a lot of politicians come from both and they do not appear to have enough sense to come in out of the rain. Give me a community College Graduate who has a complete knowledge of life and I will take them anytime over those who have no clue about the true meaning of life!

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
12:12 pm

the original and still the best John Galt:

“The few, the proud and the gay” ???

No, it’s the:

Fewer, the perverse and the Marinettes.

DannyX

December 22nd, 2010
12:13 pm

“Sounds like you would have made a good one.”

Lol. How many times have we heard that from our Republican friends.

“If it weren’t for the fact that I don’t want to leave my education/career/family behind, I would have been a great soldier!”

Set these recruitment centers up where they are needed. Our churches. A lot of those people sitting in those pews are war age and healthy. Many think our army is doing Gods work. They think terrorism is a major threat.

Put the recruiters in the churches where we can gather our warriors.

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
12:14 pm

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
12:09 pm
+++++++++++++++++++++

LOL Scout. i have the same question. Or what about a “transgendered” person. Hell, if I were still in I think I’d tell them that I’m a transgendered pro-op lesbian and that i had to live in the womens barracks………… :D

paleo-neo-Carlinist a/k/a Joe the Plutocrat

December 22nd, 2010
12:15 pm

DannyX, you’re stealing “recruiting” tactics from al Qeada

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
12:15 pm

Should have been PRE-op……

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
12:16 pm

paleo-neo-Carlinist a/k/a Joe the Plutocrat

December 22nd, 2010
12:15 pm

DannyX, you’re stealing “recruiting” tactics from al Qeada
====================================

SHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! He thinks he’s on a roll………..

paleo-neo-Carlinist a/k/a Joe the Plutocrat

December 22nd, 2010
12:17 pm

Scout, I return to the “Marines are looking for a few good men”. talk about your Freudian/homo-erotic double-entetre?

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
12:18 pm

DannyX:

The Marine Recruiter who signed me up went to our church …………. :o

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
12:19 pm

Carlinist:

I think that’s the old slogan.

paleo-neo-Carlinist a/k/a Joe the Plutocrat

December 22nd, 2010
12:23 pm

just kidding, but what’s the new one? “the few, the proud, The Marines”? what does the Bible (Leviticus, I think?) say about “pride” (it comes before the fall, I believe). and seems to me the word “pride” is used by the gay community as well? sounds like a common denominator (not that there’s anything wrong with it). and do the Marines even need a “slogan”?

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
12:23 pm

Well, since none of you libs. will answer/debate my 10:58 or 12:09, I’m outta here to do some shopping. I’ll leave you with this:

“There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion.”

General William Thornson, United States Army

gooble gobble

December 22nd, 2010
12:24 pm

Right there with you on this one sister !

DannyX

December 22nd, 2010
12:26 pm

The Marine dress uniforms are about as gay as football uniform chaps.

Death of the Dollar

December 22nd, 2010
12:34 pm

Kingfisher Battle near Con Thien – In 1967, “Operation Kingfisher” was launched to destroy NVA forces just south of the DMZ. On Sept. 21st, the 2nd battalion, 4th Marines began a “search and destroy” mission and quickly encountered the entrenched 90th NVA regiment. The Marines lacked tank support because recent rains limited road mobility, while the dense vegetation and close proximity of the enemy restricted air and artillery support. After a day-long battle, the Marines had suffered at least 16 dead and 118 wounded while trying to break out of the enemy’s kill zone. The battalion withdrew at dusk, although flee may be a better term since 15 dead Marines were left behind. Details are sketchy, but the battalion didn’t return to collect its dead until three weeks later. Veterans of the battle state they lost 34 KIA that day.

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
12:34 pm

DannyX, in an all volunteer military, I dont think it matters where the recruiting stations are….if someone wants to join, I think they will find them. Ivy League schools restarting ROTC is more of a politically correct move on their part to prove it was all about DADT, instead of just not wanting the military recruiting on their campuses, I believe….

Death of the Dollar

December 22nd, 2010
12:36 pm

Battle of Dai Do – A Marine Corps infantry battalion was mauled and forced to retreat after a disorganized attempt to dislodge a large North Vietnamese force near the DMZ. The Marines suffered 81 KIA and 397 wounded while killing hundreds of NVA. Accounts of this action are hidden within reports of operations in region of Dong Ha.

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
12:38 pm

DOTD, I am not sure what the point is of related the defeats we suffered in Vietnam….was there a point I missed?

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
12:39 pm

thats “relating”

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
12:43 pm

oh jeez markie, why did you ask? I think he was bored and would have stopped. Now you’ve given him new life………

Jay

December 22nd, 2010
12:43 pm

Amazing how suddenly its OK to have ROTC at these schools again. Money to tight to mention so any way back to the public trough is a good way.

Disgusting.

We havent needeed Harvard or Yale ROTC cadets since the Vietnam war so why do we need them now? As a matter of fact the Army has improved out of all reconition without them, why should we allow them back to be a drag on a crack elite fighting force?

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
12:47 pm

Operation Petticoat:

A submarine newly commissioned is damaged in the opening days of WW II. A captain, looking for a command insists he can get it to a dockyard and captain it. Going slowly to this site, they find a stranded group of Army nurses and must take them aboard. How bad can it get? Trying to get a primer coat on the sub, they have to mix white and red in order to have enough. When forced to flee the dock during an air attack, they find themselves with the world’s only Pink submarine, still with 5 women in the tight quarters of a submarine.

Death of the Dollar

December 22nd, 2010
12:47 pm

Fred – Starship Troopers was a juvenile novel (it was written for young teens), not a learned dissertation on citizenship. Try to separate fantasy sci fi from reality, you will do better in life. It was based on a militaristic society that existed in a fascist world, not exactly our free democracy.

Death of the Dollar

December 22nd, 2010
12:49 pm

Fred again: try to separate porn from reality, operation petticoat may play over and over in your mind, but reality is where you should be living.

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
12:52 pm

We have a republic yankee dollar, not a democracy.

Starship Trooper was first published in a magazine and won a Hugo award. It was applauded for it’s social and political views. It’s certainly more relevant than something written by that meth head Ayn Rand………….

DannyX

December 22nd, 2010
12:52 pm

Now lets see…….why don’t we see recruiters in the churches? We have God on our side right? He loves Shock and Awe. Wiping out hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi’s in an unprovoked war was God-like.

Get the recruiters into the areas where they can do some good. Churches would be a much better recruiting venue. God loves war now.

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
12:52 pm

The “reality” is yankee dollar, I’m laughing AT you, not with you.

Is that enough ‘reality” for you?

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
12:53 pm

Fred, figured if he wanted to list massacres of our military, I would give him something closer to home….like the Fetterman massacre….right here on our very own land mass…..LOL

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
12:54 pm

I kept waiting for a point…..and finally decided to ask if HE knew why he was doing it….(and I dont think he was gonna stop….sorry)

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
12:56 pm

Scout can as usual be counted on for …. why not much at all.

Why just insert the N word in most of his posts and put him back in the 1st half of last century and he would make every racist proud.

Be proud Scout…even my granny would wash your mouth out with soap.

Death of the Dollar

December 22nd, 2010
12:56 pm

Fred and Mark, sitting in tree…..

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
12:57 pm

You are probably rigtht marky, he seems to have a one track mind. (and not too bright at that, but keep that part quiet, he’s hunting wabbits I think).

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
1:06 pm

I think he is reading from the BIG little book of defeats….ok, its boring enough here now, time to move on….CT, start a new one. You are the only one on the liberal beat this week, Jay has bailed on us….

JF McNamara

December 22nd, 2010
1:07 pm

Practically speaking, Rich people start wars, middle class people run wars, and poor people die in wars. Conceptually, I agree they should be there, but I’m not sure how many Richie Riches are going to up with an actual war going on. In non-wartime, yes. Now, no.

DannyX

December 22nd, 2010
1:11 pm

And another non point markie mark. It does matter in an all volunteer army who we are recruiting.

Bush W found out the hard way. He counted on his supporters to rally behind him. He talked of mushroom clouds and evil terrorism. When it came right down to W was abandoned by his own supporters, even with such a threat! Bush had to neglect Afghanistan and lost control of Iraq because our fighting forces were spread too thin. Bush’s own vocal, war hungry war supporters left him hanging. They were nothing more than keyboard warriors. They loved Shock and Awe in HD, not up close.

Yep our very own warriors decided they would blog about the war. Now the world knows how weak we are. Our warriors are mia. They have decided to blog and make money and go to school, and blog on all day about the evils of Muslims and terrorists.

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
1:15 pm

DannyX, Robert Gates expressed “concern” just a few weeks ago that the military doesn’t represent a broad cross section of society anymore. The military is more Southern and Western, more conservative, and more religious than the nation it serves.

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
1:19 pm

JF McNamara

December 22nd, 2010
1:07 pm

Conceptually, I agree they should be there, but I’m not sure how many Richie Riches are going to up with an actual war going on.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

John Walton (Walmart) was an 18D (Special Forces Medic) during Viet Nam. He earned a silver star for his valor in combat. There are many others. Not everyone is a Paris Hilton………

Death of the Dollar

December 22nd, 2010
1:24 pm

“A former Delta Force commander, using the pen name “Dalton Fury”, who was present at Tora Bora has written that bin Laden escaped into Pakistan on or around December 16, 2001. Fury gives three reasons for why he believes bin Laden was able to escape: (1) the US mistakenly thought that Pakistan was effectively guarding the border area, (2) NATO allies refused to allow the use of air-dropped GATOR mines, which would have helped seal bin Laden and his forces inside the Tora Bora area, and (3) over-reliance on native Afghan military forces as the main force deployed against bin Laden and his fighters. Fury states that the Afghan forces would usually leave the battlefield in the evenings to break their Ramadan fasts, thereby allowing the al-Qaeda forces a chance to regroup, reposition, or escape.[6]
Fury, in an interview on 60 Minutes, stated that his Delta Force team and CIA Paramilitary Officers traveled to Tora Bora after the CIA pinpointed bin Laden’s location in that area. Fury’s team proposed an operation in which they would assault bin Laden’s suspected position from the rear, over the 14,000 foot high mountain separating Tora Bora from Pakistan. But, Fury’s proposal was denied by unidentified officials at higher headquarters for unknown reasons. Fury then proposed the dropping of GATOR mines in the passes leading away from Tora Bora, but this was also denied. Forced to approach the al-Qaeda forces from the front, at one point Fury reports that his team was within 2,000 meters of bin Laden’s suspected position, but withdrew because of uncertainty over the number of al-Qaeda fighters guarding bin Laden and a lack of support from allied Afghan troops.[7]
A short time later, the Afghan military forces declared a cease fire with al-Qaeda. When Fury’s team prepared to advance again on the al-Qaeda forces anyway, Afghan soldiers drew their weapons on the US soldiers. After 12 hours of negotiations, the Afghans stood down, but this had allowed bin Laden and his bodyguards time to relocate. Fury reports that bin Laden, in his radio calls which began in the afternoon of December 13, was clearly under duress, reportedly saying to his fighters, “the time is now, arm your women and children against the infidel”. Then, after a few hours of enduring massive and accurate aerial bombing, he broke radio silence again to say “Our prayers were not answered. Times are dire and bad. We did not get support from the apostate nations who call themselves our Muslim brothers. Things might have been different”. Fury describes that Bin Laden’s final words to his fighters on that night were “I’m sorry for getting you involved in this battle, if you can no longer resist, you may surrender with my blessing”.[8]
A short time later, what was believed to be bin Laden and his bodyguards were observed entering a cave. Fury’s team called down several bombing attacks on the cave, and believed that they had killed bin Laden. Six months later, US and Canadian forces returned and checked several caves in the area, finding remains of al-Qaeda fighters, but not of bin Laden. Fury believes that bin Laden was injured in the shoulder by shrapnel during the bombing of the cave, but was then hidden, given medical care, and assisted out of the area into Pakistan by sympathetic local Afghans.”

Nothing Is Free

December 22nd, 2010
1:30 pm

Coup d’etat in Washington, (AGAIN)

Our elected members of Congress had agreed on the problems that would have been caused by the federal regulation of the internet. A bill lost in committee 0 to 95 against such regulation.

At this time of the year, when no one is paying attention, the FCC just changed it’s policy to do exactly what the bill was trying to do and not one elected official had anything to say about it.

The Internet is now Federally Regulated and monitored against the vast majority of Americans and also against the vast majority of the people that we ALL elected, Democrats and Republicans.

SOMEBODY PLEASE PICK UP A HISTORY BOOK.

Where are the people that were outraged at the phone taps? How much privacy have we just given up, not by people calling Saudi Arabia, but by everyone that uses the internet?

N

December 22nd, 2010
1:32 pm

Not sure why my comment (~ 11:50 AM) got eaten by the moderation monster? It was certainly more relevant than any of the spam with which “Death of the Dollar” has been polluting the blog. Robert Heinlein a “juvenile” novelist? Oy.

Kamchak

December 22nd, 2010
1:36 pm

Robert Heinlein a “juvenile” novelist?

Yes. Many of the books that he wrote during the 50s were aimed at the teen/preteen set.

paleo-neo-Carlinist a/k/a Joe the Plutocrat

December 22nd, 2010
1:37 pm

Death of the Dollar, why would the folks who ignored the red flags pre-9/11(”unidentified officials at higher HQ”) demonostrate any greater attention to detail when it came to actually capturing/killing bin Laden? have you read “Where Men Win Glory: The Odyssey of Pat Tilman”? Krakauer pretty much echoes the “Dalton Fury” account of December 2001. were I not filled with the “head in the sand” euphoria and delusional mindset of the “holidays” I might opine about how a “dead/captured” bin Laden takes Iraq off the table (9/11-Iraq/war on terrorism link becomes moot). as such, what would the war-mongers, chickenhawks, and military industrial complex types have done with the $1.5 trillion (and counting) “earmarked” for Bush & Co’s cronies? but let’s be honest, Tora Bora is SOOOOOOOOOOO 2001. and for the purposes of this screed, is not “Rummy” a Princeton grad? Did not Bush matriculate from both Yale (undergrad) and Harvard (MBA)? why let some “shooter” on the ground, with the “highest of high value you targets” in his crosshairs actually execute and order and perform his sworn duty as a Delta Force operator?

DannyX

December 22nd, 2010
1:37 pm

We expect to spend over 700 billion on our war machine next year. Every time we spend another billion an angel gets its wings.

God loves war and hates the poor now. God wants poor people to sell all their belongings, give the proceeds to a rich man, then join the Marines.

paleo-neo-Carlinist a/k/a Joe the Plutocrat

December 22nd, 2010
1:41 pm

and let’s not forget; the “brainiac” military intelligence officer in the film version of Starship Toopers turned out to be a homo (Neal Patrick Harris). I never read the novel, but any opportunity to see Denise Richards coming out of the shower topless is OK by me!

Tom

December 22nd, 2010
1:43 pm

Changing the subject for a minute- Just saw a picture of President Obama, signing the DADT bill with 7 Congress members standing behind him(including Pelosi and Reid). It is my guess that none of the eight ever served in the military?? But they are the decision-makers on this important bill, how ironic! As a former veteran, now retired, absolutely NO way I would ever volunteer for today’s military!! Will be interesting to see how many leave the military first chance that they get??

DannyX

December 22nd, 2010
1:46 pm

“Will be interesting to see how many leave the military first chance that they get??”

Yes it will. How many “patriotic” soldiers are there that would abandoned their country because a gay man might see them in the shower?

Disgusting.

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
1:50 pm

Carlin…..I second the vote on Denise.

Tom, how ironic that civilians are in charge of the military as per the US Constitution. But dont worry, from everything I have seen about the brave gay men and women who have fought and died for this country in the service, I think the military without the homophobes will do as well as if not better than it has and with more integrity.

Kamchak

December 22nd, 2010
1:50 pm

Will be interesting to see how many leave the military first chance that they get??

Good riddance.

paleo-neo-Carlinist a/k/a Joe the Plutocrat

December 22nd, 2010
1:54 pm

Tom, you are either a veteran or active duty. I don’t know what “former veteran” means (unless you re-enlisted, which contradicts your second to last sentence). and in line with DannyX, if soldiers are uncomfortable serving with openly gay brothers in arms, THEY are a liability to the mission, and I say; “good riddance, don’t let the door hit you on the way out”. and finally, what’s the W-L record of the DADT-policy DoD (’94-present)? 0-3 (Kosovo, Aghanistan, Iraq are L’s in my book, despite what George “Top Gun” Bush told us from the flight deck of the Abraham Lincoln).

Lil' Barry Bailout

December 22nd, 2010
1:54 pm

Yes, it is time for America-hating professors and college administrators to reacquaint themselves with the people who protect their right and ability to act like spoiled little fascists.

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
1:54 pm

Kam…you may have missed another breakdown yesterday at 9:29

Tom

December 22nd, 2010
1:55 pm

DANNYX, KEEPupthegoodfight,KAMCHAK – Have you ever served in the Military?? Be honest with your answer? and I will promise to shut up!

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
1:57 pm

“America-hating professors”…. what, they dont wear lapel flag pins……..Yes, bring us more colleges that teach dinosaurs and men walked the earth together!

lupe

December 22nd, 2010
1:58 pm

jesus said, “love your neighbor as you love yourself” leave your prejudice in the barn.

slade

December 22nd, 2010
1:59 pm

conservatives are little eichmann’s

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
1:59 pm

Funny Tom….I dont remember anything in the US Constitution or in any law that gives a veteran a superior vote to any other citizens. Most of those who fight and risk their lives for citizens understand that they fight for freedom, not so that they can dictate to others.

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
2:00 pm

“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” – Eric Arthur Blair

Good riddance, indeed.

Nothing Is Free

December 22nd, 2010
2:03 pm

Keep Up

- -Yes, bring us more colleges that teach dinosaurs and men walked the earth together!- -

Or that teach that by the 21st century, most of the Northern US will be coved by new glaciers brought about by global cooling.

paleo-neo-Carlinist a/k/a Joe the Plutocrat

December 22nd, 2010
2:03 pm

Tom, can’t speak for DANNYX, Keep up, or Kamchack, but I pay taxes. I am a citizen of the United States of America. I ‘defend’ and I am beholden to the same Constitution as all Americans (civilians and soliders). there is not one shred of evidence to support the “fear” that openly gay soliders will compromise anything. to the contrary, there have been numerous accounts of gay soliders, sailors, Marines an airmen performing with great honor and patriotism, and these accounts have come from fellow soliders, sailors, Marines and airmen. we all bleed the same blood.

Bob

December 22nd, 2010
2:05 pm

I think this is a most excellent idea. Georgia Tech has had an active Air Force ROTC (Newest), Naval ROTC (Since 1926), and Army ROTC (Since 1917) and they have served our country well and made our Institute proud. An Educated Officer Corps is beyond essential in today’s Military missions. I see no downside to the expansion of ROTC into Harvard and Yale, the very places that future Commanders in Chief will likely be educated.

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
2:05 pm

Paleo @ 1:54pm – Using your logic (not that I consider AFG and IRQ “L”’s), the “No gays at all” policy DoD is 7-1-1 not counting exhibiton games in Haiti, the Dominican Republic, Central America, China, Mexico, etc.

Nothing Is Free

December 22nd, 2010
2:07 pm

God Bless America… and no one else

- -Good riddance, indeed.- -

You are on another level than most of the liberal posters here. They are the worst of the worst. They would rather the little fairy that betrayed his oath to release all those documents that have already resulted in deaths or tribal elders in Afghanistan be made into some sort of twisted hero.

Between their temper tantrums and asinine, non-relative points, it is a complete waste of time.

You are dealing with either adolescents or adults that haver never matured past adolescence.

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
2:11 pm

Nothing Is Free – I’m not on another level, it just helps to have experience in a topic before you express an opinion. Then, you have an INFORMED opinion.

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
2:11 pm

There are many people who have roles in supporting the military. Those who build and design weapons, those who construct the bases and the roads those trucks move on, those who help transport food and equipment in merchant ships, those who refine the fuel, those who farm the food, those who work in the factories. Rosie the riverter did her part and many others. The continued snark that only the military protects the constitution or this country somehow in a vacuum fails to acknowledge the work of many many others.

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
2:14 pm

Keep – does that also mean those who have had tangential inputs into attacks on America are also legitimate enemies?

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
2:15 pm

I see someone is having a fairy tantrum again today and again is demanding attention. Yawn.

Tom

December 22nd, 2010
2:16 pm

To my new three best buddies on this blog, I personally don’t think any one in the service should be required to speak of their sexual preference(gay or not).It worked out best that way in my military days, never knew of anyone kicked out unless they threw their sexual preference out there in other people’s face.

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
2:17 pm

Why GBA are you blaming Bush for his failure to read intelligence reports and act accordingly?

paleo-neo-Carlinist a/k/a Joe the Plutocrat

December 22nd, 2010
2:17 pm

God Bless America…, you follow sports, huh? it doesn’t matter where you’re ranked at the begining of the season (exhibition season don’t count for nothin’). it only matters where you are the day after the Super Bowl, Final Four, World Series, or BCS Title Game is completed. back when I was a jock we used to say; “the eye in the sky don’t lie” (film/video tells the truth). we have spent 9+ years and $1 trillion in AfPak, and we’re nowhere near victory. We’ve spent 6+ years and $1 trillion in Iraq with similar results. I’m not interested in exhibition games. my old ball coach used to say; “potential will get you fired”. expectations or prognostication does not equal performance, and the DADT DoD’s performance from ‘94 – 2010 has been anything but stellar.

birdhunter

December 22nd, 2010
2:19 pm

Can we start calling them the “Obama Tax Cuts for the Rich” yet?

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
2:20 pm

Keep – didn’t say which iputs, just aking if you apply your arguments consistantly.

Paleo – Exactly. Therefore, zero tolerance for homosexuality is the clear winner (as proven by the win-loss stats)

paleo-neo-Carlinist a/k/a Joe the Plutocrat

December 22nd, 2010
2:23 pm

Tom, kudos for saying; “…I personally don’t think…” your opinion (and your experience) is no more/less valid than any other. BUT, how many Naval officers were bounced as a result of “Tailhook” (a de facto flaunting of the heterosexual “lifestyle”)? I believe adultery is grounds for discharge, but how many “unfaithful” heterosexual officers or enlisted men have been discharged since ‘94?

Kamchak

December 22nd, 2010
2:27 pm

DANNYX, KEEPupthegoodfight,KAMCHAK – Have you ever served in the Military?? Be honest with your answer? and I will promise to shut up!

Shut up or not, makes no difference to me.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Keep—That little melt down ain’t nuthin’ compared to the paranoia in these little gems:

Drain The Swamp (NIF)

March 17th, 2010
4:55 pm

Don’t you think that the posters here should know that you can watch them writing before the post it?

Wouldn’t that be the decent thing to do?

And

Drain The Swamp (NIF)

March 17th, 2010
5:00 pm

Now let’s go back to discussing the matter of the privacy of the posters that come to this blog.

Don’t you think that they should know that you can see what they are writing as they are writing it?

Would you want to know?

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
2:28 pm

GBA…your point is not about consistency or equivalence. To try to claim that this country is defended by the military but not by the people who manufacture the equipment they use and that one is more important than the other somehow has a collary to those who would take items such as planes and use them as bombs is simply false.

Elitism

December 22nd, 2010
2:28 pm

Geesh.

As if the Marines aren’t elitist enough now we might have an Ivy League Marine General. Along with the other services the can see how fast they can trickle on the civilians.

Talk about the military-industrial complex. We might start seeing a century of wars that would enrich everyone of the elite.

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
2:31 pm

Kam…. fits in with the tin hat and the wild drama posts about the recent FCC action. Of course that camera in the computer can be turned on by the government and by anyone at the AJC.

DannyX

December 22nd, 2010
2:34 pm

Whether I served or not is not the issue Tom. The military survey did not find widespread anti-gay sentiment. It did find there was actually a good amount of tolerance. The vast majority of our military personnel only care about getting the job done. The survey was the time to express discontent, it didn’t measure up. Not even close.

Of course there will be leftovers like Scout that believe they have the right to write their own rules. Scout has been here almost daily the past year letting everyone know that his buddies are there to take care of things their way. His little buddies have always been around, by the time a gay person is old enough to serve he has probably encountered 50 Scouts.

The “Scouts” that are still serving have been sent a message.

From the office of General Petraeus….”"If there are people who cannot deal with the change, then they’re going to have to do what’s best for their troops and best for the organization and best for the military service and exit the military service, so that we can move forward — if that’s the way that we have to go,”

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
2:42 pm

Keep – My civilian job is in the Defense manufacturing industry. If it hadn’t been for some very good people at the MRAP factory in Souch Carolina, my butt would be splattered across two provices in Afghanistan. If it weren’t for the good people who make Interceptor Body Armor, some Iraqi would have given me extra holes in my body that I really don’t need.

You don’t have to tell me that a strong economy is as vital to national security as a strong military, I learned that in my international economics classes in college (not Ivy League).

All that being said, it takes a little something extra to get up and run missions every day, knowing someone is out there gunning for you. That’s a little more stressful than the normal daily commute to pick up a civilian paycheck. I know, I live in both worlds.

For me, I love it. I wouldn’t trade the opportunity for millions of $. But I am in awe of the 18, 19, and 20 year-olds that let me lead them into harms way, protected me with their lives, and took ownership of my safety as they gladly gambled with their own.

You, however, are making the classic liberal moral equivalance mistake. I was just checking to see if it was OK with you to bomb the Afghan people because the Taliban and al Queada lived among them, since employees of the military/industrial complex are equivalent with Soldiers in your mind. In that vein, is a wheel installer at the MRAP facility in Beaufort, SC a valid military target for our enemies?

Elitism

December 22nd, 2010
2:44 pm

Keep up the good fight!@2:31 pm
Kam…. fits in with the tin hat and the wild drama posts about the recent FCC action. Of course that camera in the computer can be turned on by the government and by anyone at the AJC.
—————————-

IT CAN. SHYT. DAMN.

I’LL BE RIGHT BACK.

NEED TO PUT SOME CLOTHES ON.

LMAO

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
2:52 pm

GBA…you seem to confuse military targeting with a claim that somehow veterans who are not currently serving have some special right to speak about any military issue or the US Constitution. Simply put, they do not. As for what the current military may do, I hope they have the training, support and capacity to accomplish the mission but they must remain responsible to the CIC.

You can play your “classic liberal moral equivalence mistake” game but I did not play that card, you did. Of course, you can go back, read the commentary and tell me exactly why Mr. Tom should have a greater right to express his trash talk than the fine gay men and women who serve or any other citizen and where exactly that right exists in the constitution.

paleo-neo-Carlinist a/k/a Joe the Plutocrat

December 22nd, 2010
3:07 pm

God Bless America… well, I’ve never served, but I assume you are/were an officer? does it matter if Keep Up the Good Fight “thinks it’s OK to bomb the Afghan people”? and I don’t want to get all semantic on your butt, but by definition the MILITARY INDUSTRIAL complex is made up of both civilians (indstrial) and soldiers (military). we justified nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki because there were “military” targets in both cities. We bombed the s**t out of Germay’s “industrial/manufacturing infrastructure” during WWII and many of the “shock and awe” targets of April 2003 were (civilian) hyrdo-electric, communication, and transportation facilities. no sir, you seem to have fallen victim to the “if they’re dead they were VC” mistake of Vietnam, or the fallcy that “colateral damage” is any different than the damage inflicted on military targets/personnel.

Tom

December 22nd, 2010
3:12 pm

DannyX 2;34 – That was a good post even though I am not in total agreement with you.You are right about one thing, if you don’t agree with the CIC, then you must get out. Only time will tell how many will leave. As an old vet though, I really would not want my son or daughters to be in close quarters with an openly gay person. If you did not know, it would be another matter. That is just how I feel about immediate family members. Just think it will cause too many problems. KEEPUPTHEGOODFIGHT 2;52 – Don’t think I said anything trashy in my blogs(went back and checked them), you must be extra sensitive about this issue. Guess that is why you would not comment about military service, walk in some else’s shoes and then your opinion might be worth more than a nickel. Now go back to your Constitution defense.

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
3:19 pm

Tom…again whether I served in the military or not does NOT make my opinion on issues regarding the Constitution, equal protection or even the military less valuable than yours. Frankly you should know that is part of our freedom. You can be a veteran and still have some idiotic moronic racist opinions.

DannyX

December 22nd, 2010
3:29 pm

You know Tom, you’re getting old. Young people don’t care about the issue as much.

More bad news Tom. When you were in the military you were in fact showering with gay men. Your son or daughter would be in close quarters with many gays with or without DADT. The only way to be fully protected is not serve. (Don’t play sports either.)

Atlanta1

December 22nd, 2010
3:31 pm

Our Services represent all of us. And that is indeed a broad mix of people. Race, religion, political beliefs – you name it. The military, while slow to catch on, actually does a much better job of promoting based on merit. The color in the Army is ‘green’ for everyone. Is it perfect – no. But I would argue that we could all learn from the military.

Anyone who believes that our Military is a bunch of white conservatives only need to look at the statistical make up of the service.

Good article Ms. Tucker and Merry Christmas!

Tom

December 22nd, 2010
3:34 pm

KEEPUPTHEGOODFIGHT – Just because people have different points of view do not cause them to have “racists opinions”! Let’s just use common sense, say you were employed in the ACLU for years, I would differ to your professional opinion much more than my unknowledgeable opinion on matters concerning legal issues. Now on the military issue, if I served and was there in combat and you only read about the military in the paper or saw it on TV, who do you think has the wiser opinion?? Or does that cause you to have “moronic racists views”?

Death of the Dollar

December 22nd, 2010
3:46 pm

I see the military-industrial complex has successfully indoctrinated all of you, now like good little slaves, GET TO WORK PRODUCING WEALTH FOR THE COMPLEX.

Tom

December 22nd, 2010
3:54 pm

Speaking of trying to keep up with my new buds on this blog, time to go watch Judge Judy and try to learn more about the law and Constitution. Have a nice day, civilians!!!

American Beauty

December 22nd, 2010
3:57 pm

I agree with CT that these universities should reinstate ROTC on their campuses. One caveat though, they cannot be permitted to impose their ideologies on the curriculum. For example Harvard must not be allowed to require ROTC students to take a pladge that they’ll never fire a weapon at another human being.

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
4:03 pm

Tom…I dont think you have a moronic racist opinion because you were in the military…nor do I think you are wiser on military issues because you have been in the military. I’ll even defend your right to express a moronic opinion that same as Scout or any citizen wearing a sheet and hood.

The Constitution vests in the civilian government the control over the military. Gay men and women have served and currently serve this country and our military forces proudly and have won medals for their proud service. Military studies have shown that you do not represent the majority of opinion even in the military. The military leaders have opinions that disagree with yours and I would expect are considerably more informed that your arm chair opinion. The US Constitution is the basis for government and for the military in this country and requires equal protection. The civilian decision makers that you deride for this decision have an informed position and an absolute right to make that decision under the Constittution about who may serve and no amount of military training or experience gives any person the right to claim that their opinion is “wiser” because the civilian leaders do not have military experience. The claim is especially foolish when the civilians based their decision, in part, upon information provided by military leaders.

I will agree that I misspoke with the word “racist” because your stated opinion does not mention race as a factor. However your opinion is unfairly discriminatory and demonstrates an irrational fear of gay people. Your military service does not mean that you have a “wiser” opinion.

Let’s be clear. I do practice law. I do have an informed opinion on a number of legal subjects. I also do not claim it is wiser than others, with or without legal training, merely because I am an attorney. My opinion on certain matters may be wiser or more informed because of the knowledge of cases, laws or similar matters. Attorneys often disagree and we have judges to decide. Even judges can disagree or be overruled. I will also tell you that on some legal subjects there are those who may not have law degrees or who may not practice law who may be better informed about the subject.

Marc

December 22nd, 2010
4:28 pm

So why, CT, should it be necessary to have the military be representative of all the country’s groups? After all, it is an all volunteer army. Let the people serve who want to serve. Most likely those that do wil do so out of a sense of patrotism and duty that is a consequence of their religious and conservative tendancies. We will have better soldiers and officers as a result. Your suggestions is something like telling Microsoft that it employs to many geeks and nerds since the whole country uses their software.

They BOTH SUCK

December 22nd, 2010
4:36 pm

@Marc

So if gay people want to serve in our voluntary military, you are good with it, right?

Merry Christmas

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
4:52 pm

Paleo @ 307pm,
1. Yes, I am an officer.
2. My question to Keep was for clarification. He seemed to say that there is an equivilancy between the Soldier and the farmer that feeds him. In economic terms, I would argue the farmer is more important. I wanted to know if he felt that equivilancy in tactical terms as well.
3. In my opinion, bodies are bodies and the fewer harmed ones you see, the better. WWII was a different war in a different age. Individual humanity, including my own, balks at some of the actions taken to win the 1940’s fight.
4. Stictly military targets (people and equipment actually shooting at you) is far different than collateral damage. Collateral damage happens, sometimes unavoidably, but it is always a bad thing. Putting steel on a hostile is always a good thing.

To everyone – we (myself included) seem to have strayed WAY off topic from ROTC at the Ivy League to general mlitary current events.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
4:58 pm

The military is a privilege (except in the times of a draft) not a right.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:01 pm

Death of the Dollar:

I was in “Kingfisher” with India, 3/4. There were many nameless engagements like that and they add up to 58,000+.

If you want to read about Dai Do get “Magnificent Bast**ds” by Keith Nolan. The Marines worst day in Nam was July 2, 1967. The book is “Operation Buffalo” but I am not sure of the author. Probably Nolan again.

They BOTH SUCK

December 22nd, 2010
5:02 pm

@Scout

You are 100% correct. If the military as a whole thinks it is best overall to have gays and any skills they can provide to help the military than they too will have a opportunity at this “privilege”

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:07 pm

They BOTH SUCK:

Nice try …… However, it’s not the “military” but the individuals in the foxholes/fighting holes that suffer the consequences of politically incorrect policy. If you want to swap blood with a gay man on the battlefield that’s up to you.

[...] Military Should Look More Like the Country, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution’s Cynthia Tucker argues. “There has been much concern, over recent decades, that the all-volunteer Armed [...]

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:09 pm

P.S. to SUCK:

They have always had that privilege. Just keep your mouth shut (pun intended) and do your job.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:10 pm

Post-DADT:

We didn’t see Cynthia joining up did we?

They BOTH SUCK

December 22nd, 2010
5:10 pm

@Scout

If you served I do thank you and appreciate your service. I didn’t serve but grew up in a military family. My dad is a retired Lt Col: Army.

The top brass have spoken and have studies and surveys to back them up. Granted any study or survey doesn’t speak for each individual or unit, however the numbers are what they are.

I’m sure the military will loose some good people. How many? Time will tell.

While I’m not trying to speak for anyone, I doubt there will be a mass exodus for several reasons: many want to serve their country regardless, some are not going to leave and lose their retirement whether they agree with the repeal of DADT or not, others for pure economic reasons and some just like what they do and could careless one way or the other.

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
5:11 pm

No different than any other situation where the blood of a hetersexual man many be tainted. In fact the majority of HIV cases are heterosexuals worldwide…so your argument is just silly and ignores the reality that gay men and women have been serving for years.

Next!

They BOTH SUCK

December 22nd, 2010
5:14 pm

@Scout 5:07

Just because someone hasn’t told you they are gay, it doesnt mean they are not gay. You are a FOOL if you believe that since the Revolutionary War that gays haven’t served in the very fox holes you speak of in your posts. They are doing it today. Don’t be naive .

If there were not gays in the military they would have never been a DADT law in the 1st place.

You can have your opinion, post all day, call into talk shows but the brass have spoken…………….. PERIOD…………

TruthBe

December 22nd, 2010
5:14 pm

All of the children of the presidents, judges,senators, congressmen, and high raking government agency chiefs should have to serve in the military for at least two years. And if it’s during wartime they should be on the front lines. Just maybe then they will think twice about sending us into war for some ones elses war. Obama and Kagan included.

TruthBe

December 22nd, 2010
5:17 pm

Keeping up the good fight, you are incorrect. most HIV cases in America are homosexuals according to the CDC. Learn the real facts and not your gay agenda membership newsletter BS.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:18 pm

Keep up the good fight!

Here’s my bottom (pun intended) line on this issue. Very few will say it but I will.

I just wouldn’t like serving with, and eating C-Rats with and drinking from the same canteen at times, and swapping blood if wounded and sleeping/standing watch in the same fighting hole with another Marine who likes to stick his d*** up another man’s a** !

Call me what you want but “that’s” sick.

P.S. Looks like evolution didn’t keep up with this homosexual thing either as the an** wall is much thinner than the vagi**al wall and thus gay men can catch aids in that manner easier.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:19 pm

TruthBe:

Thank you. I posted that earlier today.

DannyX

December 22nd, 2010
5:19 pm

Scout you lost bad on this one. You better bring back James to help you out. You’re getting crushed.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:20 pm

DannyX:

“……… and the truth shall make you free.”

They BOTH SUCK

December 22nd, 2010
5:20 pm

@Scout

DADT or no DADT…….. gays are serving as we posts……..

Have been since the start of this country…………… Cry, pout, shout, type, talk……… It will not change the FACT that gays have served, are serving and will serve………………..

Merry Christmas

PS: I love coochie…….. Not gay at all, but unless they hit on me, I could careless what they do………… and that goes for straight people as well

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:21 pm

TruthBe:

But if the draft is involved, it can’t be women. The Supreme Court has already exempted them.

DannyX

December 22nd, 2010
5:22 pm

Scout why don’t bring back your famous “Military Times Poll.”

That’s always worth a few laughs.

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
5:23 pm

TruthBe…Worldwide, the majority of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infections result from heterosexual transmission. In US, 35% of HIV is heterosexually acquired and 64% of heterosexually aquired HIV infestions in females.

Now do tell me….not many battlefields in the US right now. But even the heterosexual risk is significant. So again, the blood swap issue is just silly.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:23 pm

They Both SUCK:

So have some Iowa farm boys that are into sheep. So what? Keep your mouth shut about it ……….. baaaa !

paleo-neo-Carlinist a/k/a Joe the Plutocrat

December 22nd, 2010
5:23 pm

God Bless America…

I’ll skip 1 and 2, but as far as #3, you are correct that WWII was (Studs Terkel) “a good war”. The mission was clear and we were in it to win it. But since the 1950’s and the emergence (see Ike’s Farewell Address) of the MIC, wars have been waged by profiteers and businessmen, and AfPak and Iraq are no exception. There is little regard for civilian deaths and collateral damage because quite frankly, there is little regard for the seriousness of placing soliders in harm’s way on the part of polcymakers (Bush AND Obama). they just don’t care.

As far as 4 goes, what’s your take on “putting steel” on friendlies? Fratricide (intentional or accidental) is about as common as “collateral damage”. Ask Pat Tilman or the Candian Special Forces troops “bombed” by the USAF in 2001. While fratricide certainly exited in WWII, the number of incidents in Vietnam and the first Gulf War, as well as Iraq and AfPak is nothing short of staggering.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:24 pm

DannyX:

Do you mean Air Force computer programmers or Marine/Army infantry riflemen?

They BOTH SUCK

December 22nd, 2010
5:26 pm

Scout

Keep crying……… The law has changed……. Take it up with the Pentagon and the numerous Generals who wanted DADT repealed.

You anger and rants will change ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, but you are good for a few belly laughs………. thanks

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:28 pm

They both SUCK:

I thought we were talking “opinions” here not the law. Do you refuse to discuss anything challenging law?

paleo-neo-Carlinist a/k/a Joe the Plutocrat

December 22nd, 2010
5:28 pm

Scout, how many of your ‘nam brothers, with whom you shared canteens, blood and sweat, had syphillis, gonarhea, or other nasty infections, from unprotected sex with prostitutes? and what about your heterosexual platoon mates who performed anal sex on female partners?

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:30 pm

I don’t have to worry about it anymore. It’s the guys in the trenches who have to deal with it.

America’s military has peaked …… the news said today that one in four recruitees can’t even pass the entrance exam.

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
5:32 pm

I don’t have to worry about it anymore. It’s the guys in the trenches who have to deal with it

Sir Scout gets backed into a corner with his nonsense and trash and “bravely” runs away.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:33 pm

Paleo:

Oh, there were a few who caught somethng and they were pulled from the field.

Regarding your last sentence, why don’t you start a movement (no pun intended) for that group. You know ……. equal rights and all.

They BOTH SUCK

December 22nd, 2010
5:33 pm

@Scout

State your opinion all you like………. It is not going to change

The Repubs who just hammered the Dems in Congress last month wont even bring the issue back up. You might have one or two Congressmen who would like too, but the Repubs who will head the committees starting next year will not even let it out of committee.

You have your right to any opinion you like, but you don’t have the right to your own ‘facts’……….

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:34 pm

Keep up the Good Fight:

Yawn …………..

GT/MIT

December 22nd, 2010
5:35 pm

This forum has gotten so far off target with the focus shifting to DADT that the importance of the original topic is completely lost. I shall be eternally grateful to the USN for the educational opportunity afforded me through the ROTC program. The military obligation after graduation was a small price to pay, and was an enjoyable part of my life. The reactivation of my Carrier Attack Wing by order of LBJ, not so much!

At any rate, the ROTC programs open many doors to those inclined to participate. The catch, it ain’t all that easy.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:35 pm

SUCK:

If a career male soldier decides he wants to female who pays for it ………. and the new uniforms ?

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:38 pm

SUCK:

Wait until the whiners (and they are good at that) start complaining about not getting promoted (whether they should have or not), etc.

Let the games begin.

DannyX

December 22nd, 2010
5:38 pm

Scout a year ago you hit every single ajc blog on the subject guaranteeing everyone this wouldn’t be repealed. You must be really let down by your leaders that you had so much trust in. It had to have been shocking to see the results of the poll. You must have felt betrayed as one military leader after another said the policy needed to be changed. Poll after poll reaffirmed strong public support for repeal

How did you get things so wrong Scout? From public support, to military tolerance, to the speed in which it happened.

How did you get things so wrong Scout?

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:43 pm

DannyX:

Simple. The country is in severe moral decline. It just happened a little faster on this subject than some of us thought.

Well, the “female” gunny has given me some assignments and I must go.

“Forward ……… March ! (you too pretty boy)”

They BOTH SUCK

December 22nd, 2010
5:43 pm

Scout

All your far-fetched examples that will end up being such a small percentage will be handled by the military and the policies pertaining to that issue………….

So keep up the good fight………… It is funny to say the least………..

You would make a great right talk show host: Hyperbole and hot air is surely your something you excel at

Write your Congressman, Senators, President and the Generals at the Pentagon…………. They will take your ‘opinion’ under careful consideration……………………

They BOTH SUCK

December 22nd, 2010
5:56 pm

@Scout

What planet do you live on? People in both public and private sectors complain about not being promoted, ‘whether they should have or not’. That is nothing new and is done by all races, both sexes, creeds, religious views, straights and gays.

That was such a weak example and analogy. Pick up your game

The REAL GodHatesTrash, Superstar

December 22nd, 2010
5:59 pm

Based on our military’s performance over the last 50 or so years, it’s very evident we need much smarter people in the military. So this is a good idea.

The REAL GodHatesTrash, Superstar

December 22nd, 2010
6:04 pm

Without exception, the homosexuals I know are infinitely smarter than the homophobes I know.

As a general rule, the dumbest homosexual is just as smart as the smartest homophobe. So the end of DADT can only improve our military.

They BOTH SUCK

December 22nd, 2010
6:07 pm

@ The Real

Your last post places you in the same ignorant category as Scout… Opposing view but both of you very ignorant or just like getting a rise out of people.

can you at least post with some sort of intelligence and not “Trash’

Tom

December 22nd, 2010
6:07 pm

This should be my last comment on DADT!! Unfortunately I believe this policy will lead to a lot fights between straight and openly gay military members. Men that join the military are normally very agressive type people and can be ticked off easily. First time some gay member says something crude or makes unwarranted advances, the trouble will start and sides will be picked by service personnel. This is not your pink military, it is made up of tough men and women!! This is the real world not some fantasy military. Let’s just wait and see, hope I am wrong but I doubt it. Good day, Gentlemen

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
6:09 pm

Paleo, I can tell you that at the Battalion and Company level, there is an extreme regard for collateral damage. It still happens, as does Blue on Blue and Blue on Green fire. Much of the fratricide is due to the non-linearity of today’s battlefield. As such, control measures are used to limit opportunities for that type of incident, but it obviously still happens. The fog of war often puts men and units where they aren’t supposed to be, arduous terrain makes it hard to determine the direction of enemy fire, and asymmetrical warfare in third-world nations contributed t mis-identification of Host and Friendly Force nations’ troops. Most of these issues were not a problem before Vietnam, but the nature of war changes.

The REAL GodHatesTrash, Superstar

December 22nd, 2010
6:31 pm

Seriously, our military needs to cast a much wider net for its leadership.

The service academies are full of people fighting and strategerizing the last war, and the leadership is an incestuous bureaucratic echo chamber – it takes them decades to change direction, there is little valuing or encouraging of innovation, etc. – so providing future military leaders with superior Ivy League educations – and the military with the high quality of people that are capable of securing Ivy League degrees – is a excellent method of shaking up the hidebound mediocre bureaucracy that has passed for military leadership since Westmoreland and MacNamara.

With regard to our enlisted forces, homophobia (along with racism and xenophobia) is highly correlative with low IQ and low education. Allowing gays to serve in the military will provide the services with a higher quality of enlistee than the homophobes they are getting now.

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
6:37 pm

okay…a little off topic (like this blog is not already) but:

That hope and change thing seems to be working just fine right now!

TGT

December 22nd, 2010
7:20 pm

So hope and change is back on track?

Is it really any kind of a significant accomplishment (or surprising) that Obama is getting pieces of his liberal agenda through a lame duck, significantly democratic congress? It’s kind of like the football team that racks up the yards and scores a couple of touchdowns after getting blasted for 3 quarters and getting down by 40 points.

Let’s see how the “hope and change” is working out come Jan. 5.

Chris

December 22nd, 2010
7:39 pm

Let me get this straight. First liberals want military recruiters off campus. Now you want them to back on campus? Really? Having a hard time making up mind? While it is welcome news why the flip flop? Is there a new poll out that says this is a good liberal idea that I missed?

barking frog

December 22nd, 2010
7:49 pm

Have we missed them? I don’t think so. College
grads can become 90 day wonders without ROTC.
It’s just that with ROTC students the military pays
the school. Just follow the money.

Death of the Dollar

December 22nd, 2010
8:30 pm

We have more Admirals than Ships: An Admiral is one who commands a fleet of ships. Naval operations have become more complex with aircraft, yet how many Admirals does a modern Navy need? Our Navy has shrunk from almost 600 ships in the Reagan era to 288 deployable battle force ships today, even though the Navy’s budget is now bigger (even adjusting for inflation.) The main reasons are that sailors earn twice as much and shipyards charge much more. Another reason is that we have even more Admirals than during the Reagan years. We have 350 Admirals for our 288 ships! Keep in mind that an Admiral does not command an individual ship, but a fleet of ships.

Admirals are expensive because each one has a personal aide, a secretary, and a driver. They prefer flying around in ultra-expensive military executive jets, rather than mixing with the rabble to fly commercial first class. Cutting the number of Admirals would save money, but Congress needs to ask why 49% of Navy ships are always deployed. There is no imminent threat of war. Admirals deploy ships because it’s fun to play war games and visit ships at sea. Yet this high “optempo” burns up fuel and wears out ships and crews. Congress should cut funding for Navy “steaming days” to save our Navy from its Admirals, and cut the number of Admirals too.

Old Gold

December 22nd, 2010
8:41 pm

There will be a big drop off in military recruiting!

budman

December 22nd, 2010
8:59 pm

The people on this blog often prove they know something about history just not much..do the vets have a better voice in the government/society etc.today. Yep !! said that last year year about Ga. tech robberies and was raked over the coals by bloggers about being a redneck gunslinger. I have quietly waited as it has gotten much worse. I found out as a young man how to defend myself in Quang Tri Provence Vietnam. Should Gays serve..GD come on people!! the Greeks had a homosexual fighting outfit a thousand years before the birth of Christ. Everyone in history thinks they efing invented it. I am old enough to know Vietnam combat vets who are gay..big deal.
I still believe their should be some distention among the ranks, there should always be some in the back off the formation yelling that was a stupid idea. I have heard there will be an all woman submarine in the future..big deal..I just pity their enemies!!

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
9:09 pm

TGT….I know you must not have looked at the scoreboard much and yes it will be more difficult without the majority in the house, but not impossible. As Lindsay Graham says “Harry Reid has just eaten our lunch”.

the past 3 qtrs? Hmmm…most productive Congress in 50 years and that was before the lame duck.

Guess we’ll see what happens. You are so far off so far, I certainly would not trust your predictions.

TGT

December 22nd, 2010
9:36 pm

The “most productive Congress in 50 years” suffered the greatest election loss in over 70 years, with even greater losses in the Statehouses. I guess America didn’t see it as all that “productive.”

slade

December 22nd, 2010
10:07 pm

the military is a socialist jobs program for those who can’t obtain a GED

Keith

December 22nd, 2010
10:08 pm

Two years of public service should be required of all young adults by age 25, military being one option. Students pursuing advanced degrees (I would exclude law degrees, too many already) could delay the requirement.

dcb

December 22nd, 2010
10:13 pm

To dougmo2 – In response to your statement “While I agree with this article your premise is wrong. Young adults do not wish to go to an elite school to join ROTC.”

Having served as a high school college counselor I think you have missed the major point. By far the major reason for high school students being interested in the college ROTC program has been financial. Students gaining entrance to an elite school would be interested in ROTC – interested as a means of paying for it.

oldguy

December 22nd, 2010
10:49 pm

with all the warm huggie/feelies showering down let me be one of the first to “spit in the soup” (a great quote from Wilhelm I in WW1).
CT: you mis the point, the Elite U students (and particularly teachers) HATE the military!! I’ve seen it for years. Hopefully they will not bring ROTC back to their Us.
Do you know what we called OCS and ROTC “butter bars” in Viet Nam? Mine detectors!
I was a drafted SSgt in the 607th MPs Siagon I have a 4 year Engineering degree from a well known Engineering School but I chose not to go OCS (my commanders tried repeatedly to get me to go) because I would have had to enlist (many others did the same).
point: 2Lts are considered (by most military) as the lowest of the low.
BTW: what does “openly” mean? cohabitating in base housing? transexual housing? lipstick and makeup in “C” rations? Do we reestablish the WAC uniform as official casual choice for gays?
Just saying
P.S. I served with guys that were gay – the difference was that they could not be overtly gay.

Tommy Maddox

December 22nd, 2010
11:05 pm

Phooey on the Ivy League.

As for The REAL fellow, just say no to peyote.

Tommy Maddox

December 22nd, 2010
11:08 pm

Oh yes, SLADE, then get off your donkey and get out there and protect this place with whatever education you possess.

« The end of not-telling Outpost19

December 23rd, 2010
1:23 am

[...] by Congress last week, op-eds have turned to the impact of ROTC returning to many colleges. For Cynthia Tucker at the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, that could mean a more representative officer corps, while at [...]

Rufus

December 23rd, 2010
8:33 am

And that just frosts your butt doesn’t it, Cynthia?

pajama pants

December 23rd, 2010
8:40 am

hopey-changey defeats fear-cynicism….

Zinger

December 23rd, 2010
8:43 am

Where was this article during the last administration? Are you suggesting that DADT is the reason for excluding ROTC from college campuses. Are you suggesting that a better educated military is now a possibility because we allow gays to openly serve? I doubt it. It is nothing but a convenient way for you to explain your new point of view. Somehow I think that this is another ATB (All Things Barack).

JKL2

December 23rd, 2010
8:49 am

The ROTC Dept is set up by the military, not the college. Since the Ivy league is not the target audience, it wouldn’t be cost effective (like the officer said). I know this democrat audience doesn’t understand business principles and will want to force the issue without any regard to cost/benefit because they think it’s a “neat idea”.

The main reason to open campuses back up to recruiting is because college drop outs are the target market for the enlisted ranks (like Dr Laura’s kid). Smart enough to go to college but not a good fit for the higher education system.

Lil' Barry Bailout

December 23rd, 2010
8:52 am

Keep Up

Yes, bring us more colleges that teach dinosaurs and men walked the earth together
——————————

Or those that teach our kids that America is the source of all evil in the world, a central belief of the Idiot Messiah and today’s Democrat party.

JKL2

December 23rd, 2010
8:57 am

the Both- All your far-fetched examples that will end up being such a small percentage will be handled by the military and the policies pertaining to that issue………….

Like we had under the old DADT policy?

JKL2

December 23rd, 2010
9:01 am

the REAL clueless superstar- Based on our military’s performance over the last 50 or so years, it’s very evident we need much smarter people in the military. So this is a good idea.

The greatest fighting force in the history of man. It obviously needs changing. Thanks Demwits! Do your best to screw up what works in the name of political correctness.

JKL2

December 23rd, 2010
9:13 am

keep- most productive Congress in 50 years and that was before the lame duck.

Most productive and lowest rated all at the same time. I guess we’ll have to wait until it passes before we realize all the wonderful things inside it.

Quantity before quality is the Demwit rule of the day. I’m guessing next session will be the “Do Nothing” congress because they are going to have to spend all their time repealing all the travesties of the last session.

zeke

December 23rd, 2010
9:30 am

THOSE FOOL LEFTIST LIBERAL BASTIONS SHOULD HAVE BEEN STRIPPED OF ANY/ALL TAXPAYER MONEY, BY LAW THEY CANNOT REFUSE MILITARY RECRUITERS! THE JUDGE LIED! SHE SHOULD EITHER RESIGN OR BE IMPEACHED!

jesus on the down-low

December 23rd, 2010
9:49 am

With the repeal of DADT, Jesus can/could now join the military. Of course, the prince of peace believes in making love not war:

A youth, looking upon him (Jesus), loved him and beseeched that he might remain with him. And going out of the tomb, they went into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days, Jesus instructed him and, at evening, the youth came to him wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the Kingdom of God”.

The REAL GodHatesTrash, Superstar

December 23rd, 2010
10:02 am

Homophobia correlates strongly with low IQ and low scholastic achievement. Homosexuality, just the opposite.

Military psychiatrists should develop testing instruments that can help the military to identify homophobes in the enlistment process, as they make for stupid soldiers.

Avenger

December 23rd, 2010
10:10 am

Scout. “Wait until the whiners (and they are good at that) start complaining about not getting promoted (whether they should have or not), etc” So what! There “ain’t” no perfect world. A lot of people moan and groan about being (some are some not) passed over for jobs. I am sure that you have heard about the “angry White male”. You need to pick another excuse for your little thought out logic.

David S

December 23rd, 2010
11:08 am

Folks who graduate from Harvard and Yale (especially those in the Bones and Skulls) are the one who start wars, not the ones who ever fight in them. That’s left to the ones too stupid to know that the empire is just using them as cannon fodder to promote their new world order and to justify the money transfer to the military industrial complex.

budman

December 23rd, 2010
12:10 pm

@ David does S stand for stupid…yea you never could see the true historical meaning to war. I had a known choice of my ancestors? from western Carolina my great, great ,great,great grandfather got a land grant after the revolutionary war he was a farmer in middle Georgia. .My great,great,great uncle was the Capt. of the Georgia Volunteers Civil War, my father a WW11 pilot, uncle Navy pilot Pacific campaign, nephew went to Somalia as a medic. So bed wetting mama’s boys can call us all cowards and dumb, you wouldn’t be her slick if it were not for a good Cobra pilot like me saving your uncle or dads bacon in Vietnam. So say what you want and please study history Sebastain Junger is a good start on what war is!! not what girly men like you think it is.

Common Sense isn't very Common

December 23rd, 2010
12:16 pm

David S@11:08 am

Folks who graduate from Harvard and Yale (especially those in the Bones and Skulls) are the one who start wars, not the ones who ever fight in them. That’s left to the ones too stupid to know that the empire is just using them as cannon fodder to promote their new world order and to justify the money transfer to the military industrial complex.
———————————

I somewhat agree with you, but a slightly different take on it.

A large portion of our industrial/financial and political leaders do come from the Ivy League schools. they are in position to do either great things for or great damage to the US economy.

Since the US has lost a large portion of its manufacturing capabilities (offshoring) some of what is left is geared to the military (armaments etc.) without the proper people in place in the military procurement process (up and coming Ivy League military officers) these contracts may be let to the wrong bidders (non insiders).

Also when these Ivy League officers become Admirals or Generals they will be in the position to advise the politicians on the advisability of US involvement in conflicts (or starting them (IRAQ)). They are the holders along with the CIA etc. of the information pipeline to the Pres. (IRAQ WMD’s).

Not a good scenario eh.

GT/MIT

December 23rd, 2010
12:46 pm

The REAL GodHatesTrash, Superstar
December 23rd, 2010
10:02 am

Do I detect a pronounced affinity for Homosexuality in your comments? I don’t suppose there’s any problem with that in our “enlightened” society, but you seem to be taking it to an extreme. If indeed your bent is as I suspect, then you’re counter to your very own point. I mean by that, you don’t exhibit the “superior intellect” that you credit to homosexuals. Are you quite sure that the homophobia that you seem to believe infects most of us in general, and the military in particular, isn’t just a case of heterophobia locked away in your id?

TGT

December 23rd, 2010
12:58 pm

REAL GodHatesTrash: A more significant list of what homosexuality correlates to (as I’ve pointed out several times before):

-A twenty-five to thirty-year decrease in life expectancy

-Extremely promiscuous sexual activity

-20 times more frequent use of methamphetamine

-Primary and secondary syphilis that is more than 46 times that of other men and more than 71 times that of women

-A much higher rate of gonorrhea, various forms of hepatitis, and anal and genital warts

-HIV diagnoses that is more than 44 times that of other men and more than 40 times that of women

-Frequently fatal rectal cancer

-A much higher than usual incidence of suicide

Just how smart is it to engage in activity that leads to such consequences?