Bring ROTC back to Harvard and Yale

Starting with protests over the war in Vietnam and continuing through protests over the discriminatory “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy, many of the nation’s most exclusive colleges and universities barred ROTC from their campuses. (You may recall that some conservatives held that against Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan during her confirmation hearings; as the dean of Harvard’s law school, she had argued in favor of the policy.)
It’s time for Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia and those other elite universities to bring back ROTC. Some college presidents — and military officials — have argued that too few students at those top universities would be interested in military careers to make opening an ROTC office cost-effective. From The NYT:

Eileen M. Lainez, a Defense Department spokeswoman, said Monday that it would be “premature to speculate” on plans for new R.O.T.C. units.

Diane H. Mazur, a law professor at the University of Florida and a former Air Force officer, said she doubted whether the military would reinstate the R.O.T.C. at Ivy League colleges because it is expensive to operate there, particularly for the relatively few number of students the services are likely to recruit.

“I think the military is much more persuaded by output, is much more persuaded by economic efficiency,” Ms. Mazur said.

Drew Faust, the president of Harvard, said over the weekend that she was looking forward to “pursuing discussions with military officials and others to achieve Harvard’s full and formal recognition of R.O.T.C..” . .
The Student Affairs Committee of the Columbia University Senate, a policy-making body of students, faculty members, administrators, alumni and others, said Monday that it had formed a Task Force on Military Engagement to consider whether the university should formally participate in the R.O.T.C.

Before making any decision, the committee said, it would conduct an opinion survey and hold hearings on the issue. The committee’s chairman, Tao Tan, said the process would be driven by students, rather than faculty members.

Several Columbia students said this week that while they would not object to the return of the R.O.T.C., they did not expect their classmates to show much interest in military careers.

“Most people come here to have a specific career,” said Alex Gaspard, 18, who hopes to go to law school. “Investment bankers or lawyers.”

Regardless, it is in the nation’s best interest to include among its military officers as many of the best-educated leaders as it can find. And some of those can be harvested from colleges such as Harvard and Yale.
There has been much concern, over recent decades, that the all-volunteer Armed Forces is increasingly different from the civilian nation that it serves — more religious, more conservative. (I’m not so sure that’s true, given the Pentagon’s survey on “Don’t Ask,” which showed that most troops were quite comfortable with having gays and lesbians serve openly.) One of the ways to ameliorate that trend is to be sure that the officer corps is recruited broadly, including recruitment from the elite universities.
— by Cynthia Tucker

360 comments Add your comment

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
2:05 pm

Paleo @ 1:54pm – Using your logic (not that I consider AFG and IRQ “L”’s), the “No gays at all” policy DoD is 7-1-1 not counting exhibiton games in Haiti, the Dominican Republic, Central America, China, Mexico, etc.

Nothing Is Free

December 22nd, 2010
2:07 pm

God Bless America… and no one else

- -Good riddance, indeed.- -

You are on another level than most of the liberal posters here. They are the worst of the worst. They would rather the little fairy that betrayed his oath to release all those documents that have already resulted in deaths or tribal elders in Afghanistan be made into some sort of twisted hero.

Between their temper tantrums and asinine, non-relative points, it is a complete waste of time.

You are dealing with either adolescents or adults that haver never matured past adolescence.

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
2:11 pm

Nothing Is Free – I’m not on another level, it just helps to have experience in a topic before you express an opinion. Then, you have an INFORMED opinion.

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
2:11 pm

There are many people who have roles in supporting the military. Those who build and design weapons, those who construct the bases and the roads those trucks move on, those who help transport food and equipment in merchant ships, those who refine the fuel, those who farm the food, those who work in the factories. Rosie the riverter did her part and many others. The continued snark that only the military protects the constitution or this country somehow in a vacuum fails to acknowledge the work of many many others.

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
2:14 pm

Keep – does that also mean those who have had tangential inputs into attacks on America are also legitimate enemies?

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
2:15 pm

I see someone is having a fairy tantrum again today and again is demanding attention. Yawn.

Tom

December 22nd, 2010
2:16 pm

To my new three best buddies on this blog, I personally don’t think any one in the service should be required to speak of their sexual preference(gay or not).It worked out best that way in my military days, never knew of anyone kicked out unless they threw their sexual preference out there in other people’s face.

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
2:17 pm

Why GBA are you blaming Bush for his failure to read intelligence reports and act accordingly?

paleo-neo-Carlinist a/k/a Joe the Plutocrat

December 22nd, 2010
2:17 pm

God Bless America…, you follow sports, huh? it doesn’t matter where you’re ranked at the begining of the season (exhibition season don’t count for nothin’). it only matters where you are the day after the Super Bowl, Final Four, World Series, or BCS Title Game is completed. back when I was a jock we used to say; “the eye in the sky don’t lie” (film/video tells the truth). we have spent 9+ years and $1 trillion in AfPak, and we’re nowhere near victory. We’ve spent 6+ years and $1 trillion in Iraq with similar results. I’m not interested in exhibition games. my old ball coach used to say; “potential will get you fired”. expectations or prognostication does not equal performance, and the DADT DoD’s performance from ‘94 – 2010 has been anything but stellar.

birdhunter

December 22nd, 2010
2:19 pm

Can we start calling them the “Obama Tax Cuts for the Rich” yet?

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
2:20 pm

Keep – didn’t say which iputs, just aking if you apply your arguments consistantly.

Paleo – Exactly. Therefore, zero tolerance for homosexuality is the clear winner (as proven by the win-loss stats)

paleo-neo-Carlinist a/k/a Joe the Plutocrat

December 22nd, 2010
2:23 pm

Tom, kudos for saying; “…I personally don’t think…” your opinion (and your experience) is no more/less valid than any other. BUT, how many Naval officers were bounced as a result of “Tailhook” (a de facto flaunting of the heterosexual “lifestyle”)? I believe adultery is grounds for discharge, but how many “unfaithful” heterosexual officers or enlisted men have been discharged since ‘94?

Kamchak

December 22nd, 2010
2:27 pm

DANNYX, KEEPupthegoodfight,KAMCHAK – Have you ever served in the Military?? Be honest with your answer? and I will promise to shut up!

Shut up or not, makes no difference to me.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Keep—That little melt down ain’t nuthin’ compared to the paranoia in these little gems:

Drain The Swamp (NIF)

March 17th, 2010
4:55 pm

Don’t you think that the posters here should know that you can watch them writing before the post it?

Wouldn’t that be the decent thing to do?

And

Drain The Swamp (NIF)

March 17th, 2010
5:00 pm

Now let’s go back to discussing the matter of the privacy of the posters that come to this blog.

Don’t you think that they should know that you can see what they are writing as they are writing it?

Would you want to know?

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
2:28 pm

GBA…your point is not about consistency or equivalence. To try to claim that this country is defended by the military but not by the people who manufacture the equipment they use and that one is more important than the other somehow has a collary to those who would take items such as planes and use them as bombs is simply false.

Elitism

December 22nd, 2010
2:28 pm

Geesh.

As if the Marines aren’t elitist enough now we might have an Ivy League Marine General. Along with the other services the can see how fast they can trickle on the civilians.

Talk about the military-industrial complex. We might start seeing a century of wars that would enrich everyone of the elite.

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
2:31 pm

Kam…. fits in with the tin hat and the wild drama posts about the recent FCC action. Of course that camera in the computer can be turned on by the government and by anyone at the AJC.

DannyX

December 22nd, 2010
2:34 pm

Whether I served or not is not the issue Tom. The military survey did not find widespread anti-gay sentiment. It did find there was actually a good amount of tolerance. The vast majority of our military personnel only care about getting the job done. The survey was the time to express discontent, it didn’t measure up. Not even close.

Of course there will be leftovers like Scout that believe they have the right to write their own rules. Scout has been here almost daily the past year letting everyone know that his buddies are there to take care of things their way. His little buddies have always been around, by the time a gay person is old enough to serve he has probably encountered 50 Scouts.

The “Scouts” that are still serving have been sent a message.

From the office of General Petraeus….”"If there are people who cannot deal with the change, then they’re going to have to do what’s best for their troops and best for the organization and best for the military service and exit the military service, so that we can move forward — if that’s the way that we have to go,”

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
2:42 pm

Keep – My civilian job is in the Defense manufacturing industry. If it hadn’t been for some very good people at the MRAP factory in Souch Carolina, my butt would be splattered across two provices in Afghanistan. If it weren’t for the good people who make Interceptor Body Armor, some Iraqi would have given me extra holes in my body that I really don’t need.

You don’t have to tell me that a strong economy is as vital to national security as a strong military, I learned that in my international economics classes in college (not Ivy League).

All that being said, it takes a little something extra to get up and run missions every day, knowing someone is out there gunning for you. That’s a little more stressful than the normal daily commute to pick up a civilian paycheck. I know, I live in both worlds.

For me, I love it. I wouldn’t trade the opportunity for millions of $. But I am in awe of the 18, 19, and 20 year-olds that let me lead them into harms way, protected me with their lives, and took ownership of my safety as they gladly gambled with their own.

You, however, are making the classic liberal moral equivalance mistake. I was just checking to see if it was OK with you to bomb the Afghan people because the Taliban and al Queada lived among them, since employees of the military/industrial complex are equivalent with Soldiers in your mind. In that vein, is a wheel installer at the MRAP facility in Beaufort, SC a valid military target for our enemies?

Elitism

December 22nd, 2010
2:44 pm

Keep up the good fight!@2:31 pm
Kam…. fits in with the tin hat and the wild drama posts about the recent FCC action. Of course that camera in the computer can be turned on by the government and by anyone at the AJC.
—————————-

IT CAN. SHYT. DAMN.

I’LL BE RIGHT BACK.

NEED TO PUT SOME CLOTHES ON.

LMAO

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
2:52 pm

GBA…you seem to confuse military targeting with a claim that somehow veterans who are not currently serving have some special right to speak about any military issue or the US Constitution. Simply put, they do not. As for what the current military may do, I hope they have the training, support and capacity to accomplish the mission but they must remain responsible to the CIC.

You can play your “classic liberal moral equivalence mistake” game but I did not play that card, you did. Of course, you can go back, read the commentary and tell me exactly why Mr. Tom should have a greater right to express his trash talk than the fine gay men and women who serve or any other citizen and where exactly that right exists in the constitution.

paleo-neo-Carlinist a/k/a Joe the Plutocrat

December 22nd, 2010
3:07 pm

God Bless America… well, I’ve never served, but I assume you are/were an officer? does it matter if Keep Up the Good Fight “thinks it’s OK to bomb the Afghan people”? and I don’t want to get all semantic on your butt, but by definition the MILITARY INDUSTRIAL complex is made up of both civilians (indstrial) and soldiers (military). we justified nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki because there were “military” targets in both cities. We bombed the s**t out of Germay’s “industrial/manufacturing infrastructure” during WWII and many of the “shock and awe” targets of April 2003 were (civilian) hyrdo-electric, communication, and transportation facilities. no sir, you seem to have fallen victim to the “if they’re dead they were VC” mistake of Vietnam, or the fallcy that “colateral damage” is any different than the damage inflicted on military targets/personnel.

Tom

December 22nd, 2010
3:12 pm

DannyX 2;34 – That was a good post even though I am not in total agreement with you.You are right about one thing, if you don’t agree with the CIC, then you must get out. Only time will tell how many will leave. As an old vet though, I really would not want my son or daughters to be in close quarters with an openly gay person. If you did not know, it would be another matter. That is just how I feel about immediate family members. Just think it will cause too many problems. KEEPUPTHEGOODFIGHT 2;52 – Don’t think I said anything trashy in my blogs(went back and checked them), you must be extra sensitive about this issue. Guess that is why you would not comment about military service, walk in some else’s shoes and then your opinion might be worth more than a nickel. Now go back to your Constitution defense.

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
3:19 pm

Tom…again whether I served in the military or not does NOT make my opinion on issues regarding the Constitution, equal protection or even the military less valuable than yours. Frankly you should know that is part of our freedom. You can be a veteran and still have some idiotic moronic racist opinions.

DannyX

December 22nd, 2010
3:29 pm

You know Tom, you’re getting old. Young people don’t care about the issue as much.

More bad news Tom. When you were in the military you were in fact showering with gay men. Your son or daughter would be in close quarters with many gays with or without DADT. The only way to be fully protected is not serve. (Don’t play sports either.)

Atlanta1

December 22nd, 2010
3:31 pm

Our Services represent all of us. And that is indeed a broad mix of people. Race, religion, political beliefs – you name it. The military, while slow to catch on, actually does a much better job of promoting based on merit. The color in the Army is ‘green’ for everyone. Is it perfect – no. But I would argue that we could all learn from the military.

Anyone who believes that our Military is a bunch of white conservatives only need to look at the statistical make up of the service.

Good article Ms. Tucker and Merry Christmas!

Tom

December 22nd, 2010
3:34 pm

KEEPUPTHEGOODFIGHT – Just because people have different points of view do not cause them to have “racists opinions”! Let’s just use common sense, say you were employed in the ACLU for years, I would differ to your professional opinion much more than my unknowledgeable opinion on matters concerning legal issues. Now on the military issue, if I served and was there in combat and you only read about the military in the paper or saw it on TV, who do you think has the wiser opinion?? Or does that cause you to have “moronic racists views”?

Death of the Dollar

December 22nd, 2010
3:46 pm

I see the military-industrial complex has successfully indoctrinated all of you, now like good little slaves, GET TO WORK PRODUCING WEALTH FOR THE COMPLEX.

Tom

December 22nd, 2010
3:54 pm

Speaking of trying to keep up with my new buds on this blog, time to go watch Judge Judy and try to learn more about the law and Constitution. Have a nice day, civilians!!!

American Beauty

December 22nd, 2010
3:57 pm

I agree with CT that these universities should reinstate ROTC on their campuses. One caveat though, they cannot be permitted to impose their ideologies on the curriculum. For example Harvard must not be allowed to require ROTC students to take a pladge that they’ll never fire a weapon at another human being.

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
4:03 pm

Tom…I dont think you have a moronic racist opinion because you were in the military…nor do I think you are wiser on military issues because you have been in the military. I’ll even defend your right to express a moronic opinion that same as Scout or any citizen wearing a sheet and hood.

The Constitution vests in the civilian government the control over the military. Gay men and women have served and currently serve this country and our military forces proudly and have won medals for their proud service. Military studies have shown that you do not represent the majority of opinion even in the military. The military leaders have opinions that disagree with yours and I would expect are considerably more informed that your arm chair opinion. The US Constitution is the basis for government and for the military in this country and requires equal protection. The civilian decision makers that you deride for this decision have an informed position and an absolute right to make that decision under the Constittution about who may serve and no amount of military training or experience gives any person the right to claim that their opinion is “wiser” because the civilian leaders do not have military experience. The claim is especially foolish when the civilians based their decision, in part, upon information provided by military leaders.

I will agree that I misspoke with the word “racist” because your stated opinion does not mention race as a factor. However your opinion is unfairly discriminatory and demonstrates an irrational fear of gay people. Your military service does not mean that you have a “wiser” opinion.

Let’s be clear. I do practice law. I do have an informed opinion on a number of legal subjects. I also do not claim it is wiser than others, with or without legal training, merely because I am an attorney. My opinion on certain matters may be wiser or more informed because of the knowledge of cases, laws or similar matters. Attorneys often disagree and we have judges to decide. Even judges can disagree or be overruled. I will also tell you that on some legal subjects there are those who may not have law degrees or who may not practice law who may be better informed about the subject.

Marc

December 22nd, 2010
4:28 pm

So why, CT, should it be necessary to have the military be representative of all the country’s groups? After all, it is an all volunteer army. Let the people serve who want to serve. Most likely those that do wil do so out of a sense of patrotism and duty that is a consequence of their religious and conservative tendancies. We will have better soldiers and officers as a result. Your suggestions is something like telling Microsoft that it employs to many geeks and nerds since the whole country uses their software.

They BOTH SUCK

December 22nd, 2010
4:36 pm

@Marc

So if gay people want to serve in our voluntary military, you are good with it, right?

Merry Christmas

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
4:52 pm

Paleo @ 307pm,
1. Yes, I am an officer.
2. My question to Keep was for clarification. He seemed to say that there is an equivilancy between the Soldier and the farmer that feeds him. In economic terms, I would argue the farmer is more important. I wanted to know if he felt that equivilancy in tactical terms as well.
3. In my opinion, bodies are bodies and the fewer harmed ones you see, the better. WWII was a different war in a different age. Individual humanity, including my own, balks at some of the actions taken to win the 1940’s fight.
4. Stictly military targets (people and equipment actually shooting at you) is far different than collateral damage. Collateral damage happens, sometimes unavoidably, but it is always a bad thing. Putting steel on a hostile is always a good thing.

To everyone – we (myself included) seem to have strayed WAY off topic from ROTC at the Ivy League to general mlitary current events.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
4:58 pm

The military is a privilege (except in the times of a draft) not a right.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:01 pm

Death of the Dollar:

I was in “Kingfisher” with India, 3/4. There were many nameless engagements like that and they add up to 58,000+.

If you want to read about Dai Do get “Magnificent Bast**ds” by Keith Nolan. The Marines worst day in Nam was July 2, 1967. The book is “Operation Buffalo” but I am not sure of the author. Probably Nolan again.

They BOTH SUCK

December 22nd, 2010
5:02 pm

@Scout

You are 100% correct. If the military as a whole thinks it is best overall to have gays and any skills they can provide to help the military than they too will have a opportunity at this “privilege”

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:07 pm

They BOTH SUCK:

Nice try …… However, it’s not the “military” but the individuals in the foxholes/fighting holes that suffer the consequences of politically incorrect policy. If you want to swap blood with a gay man on the battlefield that’s up to you.

[...] Military Should Look More Like the Country, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution’s Cynthia Tucker argues. “There has been much concern, over recent decades, that the all-volunteer Armed [...]

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:09 pm

P.S. to SUCK:

They have always had that privilege. Just keep your mouth shut (pun intended) and do your job.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:10 pm

Post-DADT:

We didn’t see Cynthia joining up did we?

They BOTH SUCK

December 22nd, 2010
5:10 pm

@Scout

If you served I do thank you and appreciate your service. I didn’t serve but grew up in a military family. My dad is a retired Lt Col: Army.

The top brass have spoken and have studies and surveys to back them up. Granted any study or survey doesn’t speak for each individual or unit, however the numbers are what they are.

I’m sure the military will loose some good people. How many? Time will tell.

While I’m not trying to speak for anyone, I doubt there will be a mass exodus for several reasons: many want to serve their country regardless, some are not going to leave and lose their retirement whether they agree with the repeal of DADT or not, others for pure economic reasons and some just like what they do and could careless one way or the other.

Keep up the good fight!

December 22nd, 2010
5:11 pm

No different than any other situation where the blood of a hetersexual man many be tainted. In fact the majority of HIV cases are heterosexuals worldwide…so your argument is just silly and ignores the reality that gay men and women have been serving for years.

Next!

They BOTH SUCK

December 22nd, 2010
5:14 pm

@Scout 5:07

Just because someone hasn’t told you they are gay, it doesnt mean they are not gay. You are a FOOL if you believe that since the Revolutionary War that gays haven’t served in the very fox holes you speak of in your posts. They are doing it today. Don’t be naive .

If there were not gays in the military they would have never been a DADT law in the 1st place.

You can have your opinion, post all day, call into talk shows but the brass have spoken…………….. PERIOD…………

TruthBe

December 22nd, 2010
5:14 pm

All of the children of the presidents, judges,senators, congressmen, and high raking government agency chiefs should have to serve in the military for at least two years. And if it’s during wartime they should be on the front lines. Just maybe then they will think twice about sending us into war for some ones elses war. Obama and Kagan included.

TruthBe

December 22nd, 2010
5:17 pm

Keeping up the good fight, you are incorrect. most HIV cases in America are homosexuals according to the CDC. Learn the real facts and not your gay agenda membership newsletter BS.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:18 pm

Keep up the good fight!

Here’s my bottom (pun intended) line on this issue. Very few will say it but I will.

I just wouldn’t like serving with, and eating C-Rats with and drinking from the same canteen at times, and swapping blood if wounded and sleeping/standing watch in the same fighting hole with another Marine who likes to stick his d*** up another man’s a** !

Call me what you want but “that’s” sick.

P.S. Looks like evolution didn’t keep up with this homosexual thing either as the an** wall is much thinner than the vagi**al wall and thus gay men can catch aids in that manner easier.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:19 pm

TruthBe:

Thank you. I posted that earlier today.

DannyX

December 22nd, 2010
5:19 pm

Scout you lost bad on this one. You better bring back James to help you out. You’re getting crushed.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
5:20 pm

DannyX:

“……… and the truth shall make you free.”

They BOTH SUCK

December 22nd, 2010
5:20 pm

@Scout

DADT or no DADT…….. gays are serving as we posts……..

Have been since the start of this country…………… Cry, pout, shout, type, talk……… It will not change the FACT that gays have served, are serving and will serve………………..

Merry Christmas

PS: I love coochie…….. Not gay at all, but unless they hit on me, I could careless what they do………… and that goes for straight people as well