Bring ROTC back to Harvard and Yale

Starting with protests over the war in Vietnam and continuing through protests over the discriminatory “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy, many of the nation’s most exclusive colleges and universities barred ROTC from their campuses. (You may recall that some conservatives held that against Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan during her confirmation hearings; as the dean of Harvard’s law school, she had argued in favor of the policy.)
It’s time for Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia and those other elite universities to bring back ROTC. Some college presidents — and military officials — have argued that too few students at those top universities would be interested in military careers to make opening an ROTC office cost-effective. From The NYT:

Eileen M. Lainez, a Defense Department spokeswoman, said Monday that it would be “premature to speculate” on plans for new R.O.T.C. units.

Diane H. Mazur, a law professor at the University of Florida and a former Air Force officer, said she doubted whether the military would reinstate the R.O.T.C. at Ivy League colleges because it is expensive to operate there, particularly for the relatively few number of students the services are likely to recruit.

“I think the military is much more persuaded by output, is much more persuaded by economic efficiency,” Ms. Mazur said.

Drew Faust, the president of Harvard, said over the weekend that she was looking forward to “pursuing discussions with military officials and others to achieve Harvard’s full and formal recognition of R.O.T.C..” . .
The Student Affairs Committee of the Columbia University Senate, a policy-making body of students, faculty members, administrators, alumni and others, said Monday that it had formed a Task Force on Military Engagement to consider whether the university should formally participate in the R.O.T.C.

Before making any decision, the committee said, it would conduct an opinion survey and hold hearings on the issue. The committee’s chairman, Tao Tan, said the process would be driven by students, rather than faculty members.

Several Columbia students said this week that while they would not object to the return of the R.O.T.C., they did not expect their classmates to show much interest in military careers.

“Most people come here to have a specific career,” said Alex Gaspard, 18, who hopes to go to law school. “Investment bankers or lawyers.”

Regardless, it is in the nation’s best interest to include among its military officers as many of the best-educated leaders as it can find. And some of those can be harvested from colleges such as Harvard and Yale.
There has been much concern, over recent decades, that the all-volunteer Armed Forces is increasingly different from the civilian nation that it serves — more religious, more conservative. (I’m not so sure that’s true, given the Pentagon’s survey on “Don’t Ask,” which showed that most troops were quite comfortable with having gays and lesbians serve openly.) One of the ways to ameliorate that trend is to be sure that the officer corps is recruited broadly, including recruitment from the elite universities.
— by Cynthia Tucker

360 comments Add your comment

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
11:22 am

Granny, I agree with you…there is no other safe model. But I have tended to notice that when out civilian leaders have rushed “in” in the last 10 years or so, our military leaders have been much more cautious about getting involved. That being said, our military leaders have been trained to win, so when the civilian leaders got cold feet for political reasons and started doing half hearted measures that were stupid, the military leaders would always plan for enough troops and supplies to win, and in some cases it appeared they were the ones trying to “ramp up” the conflict….

Death of the Dollar

December 22nd, 2010
11:22 am

This battalion commander was a Harvard grad: Battle of Ong Thanh – After minor enemy contact the previous day, a battalion commander led some 150 American soldiers single-file into the bush to destroy the enemy. They ran into an NVA regiment with some 1400 men. Alpha company was wiped out in 20 minutes, and by sundown, 59 American soldiers lay dead with 75 wounded. An excellent documentary is on-line where survivors describe the onslaught.

granny godzilla

December 22nd, 2010
11:24 am

markie mark

who’s “rushed in” in the last ten years…I can only think of one guy….

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
11:26 am

Willliebekind:

Each war is different, but one of the main problems in Nam was the heat/humidity and water supply. I think that is much the same (except humidity) in Iraq/Afghanistan. I personally help carry two dead Marines to the medivac chopper who had died from lack of water/heat stroke.

Now that said, we often shared our canteens with each other especially when water was almost non-existant. I’ll tell you right now I would have thought twice about that if I thought the other person had been swapping d***’* and a** with his fighting hole (no pun intended) buddy
the night before.

P.S. The Army calls them “foxholes”. Marines prefer “fighting holes”.

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
11:28 am

Granny, while the Harvard list is nice, it is mostly composed of people from generations when serving the country was considered part of your obligation as an American. I wonder how many of the people on the list were born after, say, 1960.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
11:28 am

Death of the Dollar:

I’d rather have a “mustanger” as my officer any day of the week.

Boehner stole Beck's act. Boo Hoo WORKS!!!

December 22nd, 2010
11:28 am

Dont test. Don’t study. Panty Raids and Frat Pranks are the only training our generals need. It was all Hitler had during Barbarosa, and that turned out okay.

You know, what Tucker is proposing is that we educate gay soldiers and I gotta tell you they don’t need no stinking education. SNAFUS and FUBARS cant be learned. They’re simply the army way.

And that’s all I have to say ’bout that.

Death of the Dollar

December 22nd, 2010
11:30 am

Maybe the Harvard grads can be jet jockies, like these: August 1967 Air Battle – This war produced two American “Ace” fighter pilots (i.e. more than five aerial kills), yet the North Vietnamese had 16, including Nguyen Van Coc was the top Ace of the war with nine kills. On Aug. 23, 1967, Coc led several MIG fighters to intercept a group of 40 American aircraft on a bombing mission. They shot down three American F-4D fighters and one F-105D fighter-bomber without losing a single MIG. Eight American aviators were killed or captured.

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
11:31 am

Scout, you may have to define a mustang…..some people right now are going “huh”?….

Observer

December 22nd, 2010
11:31 am

Granny Godzilla- just another whining liberal without a job. Kinda like chamkak, keep up the good fight, etc. But they shore do a good job of whining.

ricardus

December 22nd, 2010
11:31 am

There is little interest in ROTC at Ivy League schools as generally their clientel are not really “Americans” and they generally oppose anything that’s is considered “American”.
I certainly would not send my grandchildren there.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
11:32 am

No one wants to comment on my 10:58 huh? MSM’s will cost us more money !!

By the way Cynthia, why would you want Harvard in now when the military still discriminates against the too short, the too tall, the skinny, the overweight, etc., etc., etc.

For the record, midgets would be great in tanks and on submarines !!!

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
11:34 am

markie mark:

Their problem! That’s why most of them know “zero” about the real military.

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
11:34 am

Joel @ 1032 — “These days, the front line can come to you. Quickly. Everyone is a infantryman”

I gotta correct you on this…. everyone might used some infantry tasks and drills, but everyone is NOT an Infantryman. :)

RGB

December 22nd, 2010
11:34 am

College prof reminds me again of the old adage “those who can do; those who can’t teach.”

Said person also reminds me of the expression: “Conceit is a weird disease. It makes everyone sick but the individual who has it.”

Death of the Dollar

December 22nd, 2010
11:35 am

More Ivy League officers: Ambush at Hoc Mon – In 1968, 92 American soldiers of C Company, 4th Battalion, 9th Infantry Regiment, 25th Division began a search-and-destroy mission near Saigon. They were looking for a Viet Cong force that had been firing rockets into their Tan Son Nhut Air Base. As they rushed along a road without flank security to catch up with their battalion, they ran into an ambush. Within eight minutes, 49 American soldiers were dead or dying, and 29 were wounded.

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
11:37 am

now Scout, thats just mean….lol….and since its a Marine term, some of the former army guys may not know it either….Mustang = an officer who is promoted from the ranks….cant bs these guys, they were formally the bs’ers themselves….

They BOTH SUCK

December 22nd, 2010
11:38 am

@markie mark

When you take into context the number and size of the typical Ivy League school there isn’t going to many people from an occupation you name in terms of percentages.

That doesn’t go for just the military.

You are more than welcome to cry about Ivy League this or that but the fact remains that people from all political spectrums attend these schools and yes the vast majority come from higher income families…………. but in the end they are still a very small percentage of all people graduating from college

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
11:38 am

God Bless, that may be true in the army, but it aint so of the Marines. You are a rifleman first, everything else is secondary….

granny godzilla

December 22nd, 2010
11:38 am

“Boehner stole Beck’s act. Boo Hoo WORKS!!! ”

Yes, in January we’ll have a new “Weeper” of the House…….

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
11:41 am

Markie Mark – c’mon, you know you Jarheads that graduate from the School of Infantry walk a little taller.

Get informed

December 22nd, 2010
11:41 am

It would really help if you people actually knew anything before spouting of ill informed opinions

Apparently most people are unaware, but there are already existing ROTC detachments at Princeton, Cornell, Penn, & Dartmouth. Harvard students participate in ROTC programs at neighboring MIT (about 1.5 miles down Massachusetts Ave.), and students receive credit for some of the ROTC classes taken at MIT. Yale takes substantial steps to accommodate students who participate in ROTC at other nearby colleges, providing dedicated transportation as well as ROTC advisors.

As someone noted earlier, many of the senior military officers ultimately spend some time in the graduate programs at the Ivies (i.e. Harvard- Kennedy School, Princeton- Woodrow Wilson School, etc.). Point is, there is not as giant a chasm between the military and the Ivies as many people think.

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
11:42 am

They Both….I agree with you…but I was arguing with Granny that while the list is impressive for the accomplishments of the graduates, they graduated in totally different times of what society (even in the upper spectrum) considered desirable. Up until WW 2, the attitude toward the military was reflected in the saying “Dogs and Military, keep off the grass”. Someone in the military prior to WW 2 was considered to have joined so as not to starve in the depression. After WW 2, it was desirable to be former military in order for advancement, political purposes, etc. all the way until Vietnam made the military unpopular again….

God Bless America... and no one else

December 22nd, 2010
11:43 am

I should have specified 0300’s that go through the ITB.

Nothing Is Free

December 22nd, 2010
11:52 am

And the fascist take over the internet while the sheep sleep.

And they did it without a single elected official having a voice in the decision. Again, another 1/6th of our economy now in the hands of the federal government.

The largest government takeover since the last largest government takeover and the sheep on Tucker’s Blog are talking about ROTC.

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
11:53 am

TheAtleeAppeal

December 22nd, 2010
10:30 am

I’m not a fan of the idea of forcing everyone to serve for X number of years in this country. Our population is big enough that we have been able to survive off of an all volunteer armed forces since the Vietnam draft.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I don’t know exactly what granny had in mind, but I’m not talking about a draft. Those who wanted to serve in the military could, but the others could serve in more peaceful (yet useful) capacities. Imagine New Orleans after Katrina if there was a force such as I envision ready to repond immediately. instead of guns, they would carry hammers, or food trays, or medicine. Imagine the civil works projects that could be completed. i know it’s a pipe dream, but it would work………

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
11:56 am

Markie Mark:

“You don’t join the Marines. You become one.”

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
11:58 am

Scout, I believe that to be a true statement of all the marines I have met. I have never been one, just a huge admirer thereof.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
11:58 am

Markie Mark:

Looks like “BAM’s” will be back in vogue for our new personnel.

Death of the Dollar

December 22nd, 2010
11:59 am

Dear Fred: Your proposal assumes we owe the government something. Quite the contrary, the government owes us for its very existence, it is there to serve the people. You assume the opposite, that the people are here to serve the government.

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
12:00 pm

Markie Mark:

Sounds like you would have made a good one.

Death of the Dollar

December 22nd, 2010
12:02 pm

Here is a proposal to improve the officer corps: Require the GMAT

The area of officer career management is a disaster, yet the problems are complex and will take decades to correct. Meanwhile, Congress should require the GMAT for promotion to O-3, O-4, O-5, and O-6. This is an issue that all Congressmen and staffers can immediately grasp, and can be implemented at no cost. Since it will not affect budgets, force structure, or the careers of O-6s and above, senior officers may not strongly oppose, except because of their institutional principle that change is bad.

This will not fix major problems, but pushing Congress to pass this simple reform will be a major task since the Pentagon has blocked all changes for the past two decades. If reformers force this minor change, it will prove successful and set the stage for more complex and comprehensive reforms.

the original and still the best John Galt

December 22nd, 2010
12:02 pm

I don’t think having ROTC at Harvard and Yale would fly, mainly because the programs would have trouble getting enough students. The attitude throughout society is mostly to let somebody else serve, and that attitude is even more common among the elite. Hence the reason that only about 6 percent of the Congress are veterans. Also the reason that the ongoing conflicts in the Middle East don’t affect a large portion of the populace. Most are indifferent about those wars, because they don’t know anybody who is involved.

An earlier poster claimed that promotion in the sevices is based strictly on performance, and that’s just not true. There are quotas for minorities and women built into the promotion system, and I predict that similar quotas will soon be established to “fully integrate gays into the military.” Much of the Navy, Air Force, and Army are just another form of welfare these days. At least the USMC still has some standards, but the quotas are destroying them too. Just wait until the Marine Corps is forced to be “The Few, the Proud, and the Gay.”

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
12:03 pm

Fred and Death…..the only policy of Charlie Rangel’s that I ever agreed with was his idea to bring back the draft. He was very eloquent when he spoke of how that was the only real place in American society that made citizens of all socio-economic backgrounds work together and truly understand each other. I think he had a point. I dont think it will happen, but it is a good byproduct of military service that he personally experienced…

TheAtleeAppeal

December 22nd, 2010
12:04 pm

Fred @11:53

Death of the Dollar said it pretty well, that we as citizens should not be obligated to work for the government considering we already work between a quarter to over half of the year for free (just to pay taxes in accordance to your tax bracket). Forced public service may sound nice on the surface, but it is not reasonable. There are PLENTY of people who willingly volunteer themselves for community service projects or donate to organizations that perform such services. Then again, that is my opinion.

markie mark

December 22nd, 2010
12:05 pm

thank you, scout….while all my grammer school 13 and 14 year old friends were turning up their noses at the military in 73 or 74, I was reading everything I could lay my hands on about WW2. Always honored ‘em, always will.

the original and still the best John Galt

December 22nd, 2010
12:07 pm

“Death of the Dollar,” that’s a great idea. It will never fly, though, because a requirement to score well on the GMAT would disrupt the quota system. Also, 75 percent of all the mid-grade officers currently serving couldn’t pass the GMAT, so the losses would be too great.

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
12:07 pm

No Death of the Dollar. It is YOU who assume. Go back to Boortz, no thinking is required there.

Throughout history, the concept of “earning” your citizenship has been applied. it is still applied today in some Countries. No one gets a free ride.

I actually like Robert Heinlein’s model in Starship Troopers. You don’t HAVE to serve, but only those who do are citizens. only citizens are allowed the right to vote and are able to run for office. Those slugs, (perhaps such as yourself) who refuse to serve also forfeit having a say so in what happens. SO much for your ignorant assumptions.

MY way is like reaping the benefits of an investment. if you don’t invest, you don’t get a dividend. I realize it’s tough for you to think without having a talk show host ’splain it to you, so I will cut you some slack……….

paleo-neo-Carlinist a/k/a Joe the Plutocrat

December 22nd, 2010
12:08 pm

CT (and granny), talk about giving and inch and taking a yard, and the proverbial slippery slope. FIRST you want to allow homosexuals to serve openly, and now you want your officers (and future generals) “edumacated” by pointy-headed intellectuals at preppie, ivy covered insitutions of higher learning? actually, I concur and so does my #2 lord and savior, USMA grad (and Vietnam, Gulf War vet) and Princeton PhD Andrew Bacevich. if not done so, pick up a copy of “The New American Miltarism: How Americans are Seduced by War”. the “service academy” model breeds an insular military, inundated with “ticket punchers” and career “yes” men. if the DoD truly wants to “be all it can be” (stand down, Scout, I know that’s Army speak) or “a few good men” (there, satisfied?) it must look outside the herd to strengthen the herd. anyone who knows “dogs” or “horses” (or 17th and 18th century European monarchies) knows that a linear “family tree” produces a weak species (as the folks who provide the UGA’s for the University of Georgia).

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
12:09 pm

This is going to be a real blow (no pun intended) to the military.

Question:

A very gay man joins the Air Force (he likes blue).
After a few years “he” wants to be a “she”.
Who pays for all of this and the new uniforms?

cosby

December 22nd, 2010
12:12 pm

who cares…but I will say I am not impressed with either school. It seems a lot of politicians come from both and they do not appear to have enough sense to come in out of the rain. Give me a community College Graduate who has a complete knowledge of life and I will take them anytime over those who have no clue about the true meaning of life!

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
12:12 pm

the original and still the best John Galt:

“The few, the proud and the gay” ???

No, it’s the:

Fewer, the perverse and the Marinettes.

DannyX

December 22nd, 2010
12:13 pm

“Sounds like you would have made a good one.”

Lol. How many times have we heard that from our Republican friends.

“If it weren’t for the fact that I don’t want to leave my education/career/family behind, I would have been a great soldier!”

Set these recruitment centers up where they are needed. Our churches. A lot of those people sitting in those pews are war age and healthy. Many think our army is doing Gods work. They think terrorism is a major threat.

Put the recruiters in the churches where we can gather our warriors.

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
12:14 pm

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
12:09 pm
+++++++++++++++++++++

LOL Scout. i have the same question. Or what about a “transgendered” person. Hell, if I were still in I think I’d tell them that I’m a transgendered pro-op lesbian and that i had to live in the womens barracks………… :D

paleo-neo-Carlinist a/k/a Joe the Plutocrat

December 22nd, 2010
12:15 pm

DannyX, you’re stealing “recruiting” tactics from al Qeada

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
12:15 pm

Should have been PRE-op……

Fred

December 22nd, 2010
12:16 pm

paleo-neo-Carlinist a/k/a Joe the Plutocrat

December 22nd, 2010
12:15 pm

DannyX, you’re stealing “recruiting” tactics from al Qeada
====================================

SHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! He thinks he’s on a roll………..

paleo-neo-Carlinist a/k/a Joe the Plutocrat

December 22nd, 2010
12:17 pm

Scout, I return to the “Marines are looking for a few good men”. talk about your Freudian/homo-erotic double-entetre?

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
12:18 pm

DannyX:

The Marine Recruiter who signed me up went to our church …………. :o

Scout

December 22nd, 2010
12:19 pm

Carlinist:

I think that’s the old slogan.