Do tea partiers care about the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth amendments?

Like many civil libertarians, I have been deeply disappointed in President Obama’s insistence on keeping many of the same disturbing, unconstitutional policies that President Bush employed during the so-called war on terror. Those policies include detaining citizens without any charge.

You’d have thought that tea-partiers would express outrage against those policies, since they advertise themselves as restorers of the constitution and advocates of individual liberties or “freedoms.” The Fourth, Firth and Sixth amendments are clear about the rights that citizens have to be free of imprisonment by the state.

In a case about to go to the U.S. Supreme Court, the Bush administration imprisoned a man, supposedly because he was a “material witness” holding valuable information about the commission of a crime. It wasn’t true and authorities never even interrogated him about any crime. From The NYT editorial page:

It can be hard to distinguish between the Bush administration and the Obama administration when it comes to detainee policy. A case the Supreme Court agreed last week to hear, Ashcroft v. al-Kidd, is one of those occasions.
It turns on a principle held sacrosanct since the country’s early days: the government cannot arrest you without evidence that you committed a crime. An exception is the material witness law, which allows the government to keep a witness from fleeing before testifying about an alleged crime by somebody else.

These principles were horribly twisted when John Ashcroft was President George W. Bush’s attorney general. The Justice Department held a former college football player in brutal conditions on the pretext that he was a material witness in a case in which he was never called to testify and which fell apart at trial.

The Bush administration’s behavior was disturbing, and so is the Obama administration’s forceful defense of this outrageous practice of using a statute intended for one purpose for something very different. Judge Milan Smith Jr. of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals called it “repugnant to the Constitution.”

The Justice Department arrested Abdullah al-Kidd, known as Lavoni Kidd when he was a star football player at the University of Idaho, at Dulles airport in March 2003 before he boarded a plane to Saudi Arabia, where he was going to work on his doctorate in Islamic studies. For over two weeks, he was treated like an enemy of the state — shackled, held in high-security cells lit 24 hours a day, and sometimes humiliated by strip searches. When Mr. Kidd was released, he was ordered to live with his wife and in-laws, restrict his travels and report to a probation officer. The restrictions lasted 15 months.

The government said Mr. Kidd was a material witness against Sami Omar Hussayen, who was tried for supporting an Islamic group that the government said “sought to recruit others to engage in acts of violence and terrorism.” A jury acquitted Mr. Hussayen on some charges and didn’t reach a verdict on others. Mr. Kidd was not called to testify. Nor was he ever charged with a crime.

Kidd has sued John Ashcroft, who was the attorney general at the time of his detention. Previously, courts have held that the attorney general would be immune from lawsuits. The Obama administration has supported that position. Where is the tea party?

330 comments Add your comment

hobby

October 25th, 2010
7:31 am

8 days
where was Jesse?, Al?, the ACLU?

Keep up the good fight!

October 25th, 2010
7:45 am

Thats it Hobby blame others. In fact the ACLU and others were/are working hard to stop these abuses. So again…where is the tea party if it truly cares about the constitutional issues.

Tech Man

October 25th, 2010
7:45 am

Gloria Allred?

Tech Man

October 25th, 2010
7:46 am

Keep up the good fight!
October 25th, 2010
7:45 am

First thing first. November 2.

Peadawg

October 25th, 2010
7:47 am

“Do tea partiers care about the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth amendments?”

Do Democrats care about the 1st? What about the d-bags in Conneticut who gave poll workers permission to not allow someone to vote if they have on WWE gear? Just b/c Linda McMahon is running? Give me a break.

Keep up the good fight!

October 25th, 2010
7:48 am

The ACLU filed a lawsuit on behalf of al-Kidd charging that the federal material witness law cannot be used to preventively detain or investigate suspects and that then Attorney General Ashcroft can be held personally responsible for al-Kidd’s wrongful detention.

Dont let the facts get in the way.

Keep up the good fight!

October 25th, 2010
7:50 am

Pea…try showing up in a campaign t-shirt….notice the signs around the polling place that say “no campaigning” within 150 feet?

Martin the Calvinist

October 25th, 2010
7:50 am

While it is wrong to hold people w/o giving them their due process afforded to them as American citizens, the tea party’s main focus is on fiscal policies. The name of this loose group is TAXED ENOUGH ALREADY. The focus is taxation and spending. Why must you accuse the “tea party” of being unconstitutional when their views on that particular issue when you don’t really know what they believe.

Joel

October 25th, 2010
7:51 am

News flash CT, the tea party was not around in 2003.

Kamchak

October 25th, 2010
7:53 am

Dont let the facts get in the way.

Facts?

They don’t need no steenkin’ facts.

Peadawg

October 25th, 2010
7:54 am

“The Bush administration’s behavior was disturbing, and so is the Obama administration’s forceful defense of this outrageous practice”

Like I’ve said all along, Obama = Bush. 2 years and nothing’s changed. I still haven’t seen any hopey changey.

Peadawg

October 25th, 2010
7:55 am

“Pea…try showing up in a campaign t-shirt”

How is wearing a Randy Orton t-shirt campaigning? Give me a break.

SpaceyG

October 25th, 2010
8:03 am

Where are they? Ironing their robes.

Keep up the good fight!

October 25th, 2010
8:04 am

Okay Pea…so I guess you’ll be cutting a check to the ACLU. I guess you were upset when Bush banned anyone from his Presidential speeches and other events if they had on any shirt that they did not agree with.

Tech Man

October 25th, 2010
8:06 am

Peadawg
October 25th, 2010
7:55 am

I have a question for you. How many Connecticut WWE fans do you think that were not going to vote will now?

Tech Man

October 25th, 2010
8:07 am

Keep up the good fight!
October 25th, 2010
8:04 am

Did he ban those shirts from the voting booth?

Keep up the good fight!

October 25th, 2010
8:10 am

Tech Man… does the constitution make a distinction between voting and the assemblies? Once you can outline the distinctions by case law, I am sure you’ll have your answer.

T-Town

October 25th, 2010
8:10 am

“Where are they? Ironing their robes.”

I guess if someone is different, or has a different opinion, you must paint them all as racist and/or bigots.

Peadawg

October 25th, 2010
8:11 am

“Okay Pea…so I guess you’ll be cutting a check to the ACLU”

What’s the ACLU got to do w/ this? And, no.

“I guess you were upset when Bush banned anyone from his Presidential speeches and other events if they had on any shirt that they did not agree with.”

Banning someone from a private event and banning someone from exercising their right to vote for wearing a Randy Orton t-shirt are too different things.

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
8:12 am

Righties take note.

Contrary to what some of what you post, our hostess does not always agree with our President.

Peadawg

October 25th, 2010
8:13 am

“How many Connecticut WWE fans do you think that were not going to vote will now?”

Good question. I would expect vote WWE fans up there were going to vote anyways…but especially now just to try and prove a point.

Peadawg

October 25th, 2010
8:13 am

“Contrary to what some of what you post, our hostess does not always agree with our President.”

That makes twice in the past week. I gotta say I’m impressed w/ Cynthia.

TnGelding

October 25th, 2010
8:14 am

The Tea Partyers don’t care about anything but raising a ruckus. They don’t know the difference between the budget deficit and our national debt or how capitalism works. They think they’re taxed too much when the fact is rates are at modern record lows and revenue is the same level it was in Y2K. Yes, there is a spending problem, but the main problem now is on the revenue side, partly due to the recession and loss of jobs, but mainly due to the irresponsible rate cuts. Some would say the cuts produced more revenue. I would say it was the continued deficit spending. If spending had been cut as well, then I wouldn’t have an argument.

Let all the Bush era changes expire, as scheduled, except for the estate tax. Leaving the estates to the heirs will produce revenue for all eternity, as I’ve opined before.

stands for decibels

October 25th, 2010
8:14 am

“Do tea partiers care about the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth amendments?”

No.

This has been another edition of Simple Answers to Simple Questions.

Bubba Bob

October 25th, 2010
8:16 am

“Do Democrats care about amendments that get in the way of what they want?”

No.

So, let’s make sure all of them are enforced by getting rid of all the idiots on both sides.

TnGelding

October 25th, 2010
8:16 am

If Obama has lost Cynthia, is there any hope? Only because of the shallow opposition.

dougmo2

October 25th, 2010
8:17 am

OK Cynthia, it has been 5 days now and not a peep from you about the Juan Williams firing from NPR. Here is the only black male analyst at NPR fired for speaking his mind, while all the white female reporters get a free pass for spouting their drival. Could it be that the women all happen to be leftest and Mr. Williams more moderate? Could it be that Mr. Williams goes on Fox News and gives intelligent insight? One of those white women thought it would be a great idea if the late Sen. Jesse Helms grandchildren got AIDS and no punishment was given to her. Do not tell us he got terminated for the reasons the CEO of National Progressive Radio stated. That was blatant lie and even you know that.
Your silence speaks volumes to your failure to protect the free speech you so much have.
WE ARE WAITING FOR YOUR ANSWER!

TnGelding

October 25th, 2010
8:17 am

As long as they run the elections, it’s not going to happen.

TnGelding

October 25th, 2010
8:19 am

Juan got fired for being honest. Some things are better left unsaid. That said, he had to be cutting himself a little thin. Too much exposure on Fox and other networks as a guest.

Keep up the good fight!

October 25th, 2010
8:20 am

So POTUS speaking at a public campaign event is a “private event.” and when someone is arrested by the US Secret Serrvice for having a t-shirt that may be anti-Bush, that is not a violation of the 1st Amend? You must have a different copy of the Constitution….and that is the problem.

Kamchak

October 25th, 2010
8:21 am

Could it be that Mr. Williams goes on Fox News and gives intelligent insight?

No.

But I do understand your need to feed that victim mentality.

stands for decibels

October 25th, 2010
8:21 am

Come on, Cynthia! Juan’s black, you’re black, feed us trolls somethin’

–shorter dougmo2 @ 8.17.

Peadawg

October 25th, 2010
8:23 am

Keep, it was Bush’s party and he decides who’s invited. It’s that simple. Are you going to go to court b/c you’re not “on the list” at a nightclub, party, event, etc?

stands for decibels

October 25th, 2010
8:24 am

also, Peadawg, given that you were whingeing about me being too quick to pull the “d-bag” trigger a few days back, I find your comment @ 7.47 to be rather silly.

Here’s what the actual “d-bag” official is quoted as saying:

In the Nutmeg State, local election officials control voting. But Av Harris, the spokesman for the secretary of state, said his agency has told local entities that they may ask voters to “cover up a hat, a shirt” with the WWE logo. They’ll also be available on Election Day for consultation if there’s a question about whether the presence of WWE gear should be interpreted as partisan.

“Nobody is going to be denied their right to vote, but they may ask them to cover up a shirt, go back to the car take it off, come back with a jacket on top,” Harris told POLITICO.

It may not be an issue, Harris said. Local registrars of voters — the position that controls voting most places in Connecticut — may not take issue with people advertising the WWE. Harris said they told the local officials to “evaluate it on a case-by-case basis” to determine if its interfering with voting.

Somehow I don’t think you’d be as upset if, say, a state election official had said similar things about Air America t-shirts being worn at the polls in Minnesota, coupla years back.

Union

October 25th, 2010
8:26 am

“The government said Mr. Kidd was a material witness against Sami Omar Hussayen, who was tried for supporting an Islamic group that the government said “sought to recruit others to engage in acts of violence and terrorism.” A jury acquitted Mr. Hussayen on some charges and didn’t reach a verdict on others. Mr. Kidd was not called to testify. Nor was he ever charged with a crime.”

so… when a country has nuclear weapons and doenst use them.. it doesnt make them a nuclear power?

MaJo

October 25th, 2010
8:26 am

Cynthia, shouldn’t you be more concerned whether or not the Obama administration cares about the the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth amendments? How can you have more concern over the Tea Partiers than you do the President of the United States? He has the power to change things immediately, the Tea Partiers power only extends to the ballot box. Yet the most you can muster about the Obama administration is being “deeply disappointed.”

stands for decibels

October 25th, 2010
8:27 am

sorry, neglected to include a cite for my post @ 8.24, here it is.

Tech Man

October 25th, 2010
8:28 am

Keep up the good fight!
October 25th, 2010
8:20 am

I don’t remember that.

Please give me a link to look it up.

John

October 25th, 2010
8:29 am

CT – What an inane column. Does Jesse Jackson care about anyone other than himself?

Keep up the good fight!

October 25th, 2010
8:32 am

Pea…you might want to read the history of the 1st Amend. You dont know what you are talking about.

But then again, some Tea Partiers have said that violent revolution is a “consitutional remedy.” Why does Beck, Bachman and others hang around with tea terrrorist like Broden?

Don

October 25th, 2010
8:32 am

I might pay more attention to the point you’re trying to make if your source wasn’t the NY Times editorial page. You think they deal in facts?

Union

October 25th, 2010
8:33 am

things to do right after 9/11 –

1. convert to islam.

2. post on a web sites jihad as an interest

3. sell tapes and books containing the teachings of radical sheikhs

4.buy videos relating to the attacks of 9/11

that shouldnt raise any red flags..

I Report :-) You Whine :-( mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

October 25th, 2010
8:33 am

Yes, we should let every potential Islamic terrorist wander free, lest we should hurt their little feelings, and if one or two of them happen to blow up a building full of innocent women and children, is that not a small price to pay so that the “world” “likes” us?

Uh, sarc…

Tech Man

October 25th, 2010
8:34 am

Never mind, I think I found it

David S

October 25th, 2010
8:35 am

Its incredible to read the kind of comments that come out of the mouths of journalists when issue they finally are caring about dont get the attention they deserve. Its a lot like the juvenile crap you can read on blogs.

“Where were you when Bush was destroying the constitution?” “Where are the Tea Party folks now that Obama is destroying the constitution?” Meanwhile some of us have been protesting government abuse of power through the Regan administration, Clinton, both Bushes, and now. The fact that the media (the AJC included of course) chooses to ignore the active and vocal protests doesn’t mean they aren’t happening.

First, the Tea Party is not a homogeneous group. Everyone has a specific item that inspires them more than others. I would venture to say that every american is similar. I would agree that the Tea Party folks need to wake up and realize that Obama is not just a socialist, but that indeed he is a war monger, a war criminal, has no respect for any of the Bill of Rights and deserves to be attacked for his foreign policy failures (continuing these senseless wars and the illegal imprisonment and torture of prisoners), but each person will focus on what pisses them off the most on any given day.

Complain about the media Cynthia, not a bunch of folks with no in-place forum to publicize their views. The media is supposed to have a responsibility to raise these issues. Where have they been since this clown was elected?

Mallory

October 25th, 2010
8:35 am

this outrageous practice of using a statute intended for one purpose for something very different.

Obamacare.

It wasn’t a tax, it was a penalty. Now it’s a tax.

Equal repugnance, Ms. Tucker?

stands for decibels

October 25th, 2010
8:36 am

things to do right after 9/11 –

1. convert to islam.

Well Ah’m proud to be yuhnnuh Mare-ick-kuhn where at least Ah know Ah’m free…

quod erat demonstrandum

October 25th, 2010
8:37 am

Here again we see the selective outrage of the lefties.

CT, a inside the beltway liberal, wants to pick and choose the amendments she cares for.

Does CT care about the 9th and 10th Amendment?

Does she understand what the 1st does –

Sadly, these all run contrary to the far left and their idea for America.

Live Free
Think for yourself
Foil the plans of the tyrants.

Peadawg

October 25th, 2010
8:37 am

“Somehow I don’t think you’d be as upset if, say, a state election official had said similar things about Air America t-shirts being worn at the polls in Minnesota, coupla years back.”

Link? I actually don’t know what you’re talking about.

T-Town

October 25th, 2010
8:37 am

Though I do not align myself with any political affiliation, I fit the demographics of the majority of their membership and have many friends who support the Tea Party. One question posed to me that I could not answer was “why is there so much fear for a bunch of middle aged citizens with a particular opinion? And why am I a racist/bigot because I believe in something different than others?” Ms. Tucker can you answer these question?

Marie

October 25th, 2010
8:39 am

Wow Cynthia how do you tie this case to the Tea Partiers? This is really a wierd column since the Tea Party is a loose grassroot organization and is really not headed by any particular spokesperson. To assume that any one of these grassroot organizations have read this article in the NYT or know all of the particulars of this case is beyond comprehension. It seems that you are just taking a swipe at the Tea Party for no reason other than that you can.

jt

October 25th, 2010
8:39 am

Ron Paul was there before the tea partiers or Obama. And he will remain there after this national nightmare is over.

Unlike the fair-weather “civil libertarians” and other “anti-war” democrats after the annointing of the “one”.

TheTruthHurts

October 25th, 2010
8:41 am

We are gonna find out on Nov. 2 where the tea party is as we vote out all of the corrupt, fake, phony, socialist democrats…YAH BABY>>>HOW YOU LIKE ME NOW!!!!! LOL SUCKERS!!!

T-Town

October 25th, 2010
8:41 am

Enter your comments here

Bob

October 25th, 2010
8:41 am

Cynthia, did the tea party people give us forfeiture laws ? You know what I mean don’t you ? If a black kid is driving down the road on the way to pay his rent and gets pulled over, the policeman sees a wad of cash and puts it in his pocket. If the black kid wants his money back, he has to hire a lawyer and pay money to recover his money. Why did democrats vote for forfeiture laws Cynthia and why don’t you have a problem with it. The obo admin is for tracking people without warrants, by putting a gps on someones car and tracking thier cell phones, but you can whine about the tea party all you want.

TnGelding

October 25th, 2010
8:43 am

Paul will be there, alright. Practicing his profession in KY.

Bob

October 25th, 2010
8:45 am

“hereBefore the Civil Asset Forfeiture Reform Act was enacted in 2000, the government only had to establish probable cause that the property was subject to forfeiture; the owner had to prove on a “preponderance of the evidence” that it was not. The new law holds the government to the “preponderance of evidence” standard and shifts the burden of proof to the federal government instead of the property owner.[1] The property owner still need not be found guilty of any crime.
Is this what the tea party are for Cynthia ? The laws were worse before the reform in 2000, but hey, lets blame the tea party.

Charles

October 25th, 2010
8:46 am

WHY are you folks reading Tucker? She’s a boring has been, with the same ole, same ole agenda. Get a life people.

Union

October 25th, 2010
8:46 am

sfd.. just stating the facts.. glad youre proud.. you dont like it.. leave.. i will be glad to help you pack

Rob

October 25th, 2010
8:47 am

“I quote the Constitution when convenient for me.”

dawg

October 25th, 2010
8:48 am

CT: Wait until 11/2 and you’ll see enough of the Tea Party to last a lifetime and Obama’s ONLY term.

Equality 7-2521

October 25th, 2010
8:48 am

After more than a year of attacking and denigrating members of the tea party, CT asks where they are?

They have been too busy fending off your constant attacks of racism, for starters.

Here’s an idea Cynthia. Interview Herman Cain and get some answers from one member of the Tea Party. He’s local. You know who he is.

Or just lean back and keep typing out allegations….

Peadawg

October 25th, 2010
8:48 am

“but hey, lets blame the tea party.”

Atleast she isn’t blaming Bush anymore…that’s a start I guess.

stands for decibels

October 25th, 2010
8:49 am

I actually don’t know what you’re talking about.

ah. sorry, I was merely posing a hypothetical.

I’ve no idea if that was ever an issue for Al Franken v. Norm Coleman in MN in 2008.

For what it’s worth, in CT my inclination would be to allow the always-tasteful-and-in-fashion WWE shirts, if perhaps only to give her something like a sporting chance in this matchup.

(after all, the WWE was always about the integrity of the game, right?)

Pulitzer = Charmin Extra Soft

October 25th, 2010
8:49 am

civil libertarian, aka Social Program Hack. Also, if I am not mistaken, didn’t they just uncover a large Chemical Weapons lab in Iraq. I suppose that it will just be explained away by the Libbies as a candy factory or something.

Rey

October 25th, 2010
8:49 am

Frankly, the average teabagger knows less about the Constitution than a 5th grader. O’Donnel et. al have proven that over and over again….

jt

October 25th, 2010
8:49 am

This is not an election on November 2. This is a restraining order.

PJ O’rourke

quod erat demonstrandum

October 25th, 2010
8:54 am

CT,

From you isolated ivory tower called Washington, DC – do you even care what America thinks? How America feels about what this administration has done?

Did you even read this mornings AJC regarding what Obamacare is doing to the working man who gets health care through his employer?

I guess not, it is better being in an ivory tower instead of having to sweat to earn a living. I guess you forgot your roots and where you came from. I would guess your family was ordinary working folks.

David

October 25th, 2010
8:54 am

I suppose if I thought Ms Tucker had two brain cells to rub together I would take the time to explain why her question isn’t even a question. However she is nothing but a left hack so why bother.

A Patriotic (unlike CT) American

October 25th, 2010
8:56 am

Well, Cynthia, a better question is……”Where is your favorite Extreme Left Wing Liberal Organization, the ACLU”? BTW, come January 1, 2011 when all the dust settles from the November 2, 2010 Elections, you’re gonna find out where the “Tea Party” is. You liberals will do absolutely anything to keep your god obummer in power……I’ll be glad when the AJC bites the dust and we won’t have to put up with your crappy journalism????any longer. Remember to vote on November 2nd :)

paleo-neo-Carlinist

October 25th, 2010
8:56 am

I’m gonna try to make this as terse as possible. as noted by my lord and savior George Carlin; “rights do not exist. they’re a concept.” let’s look a little closer. if we have been “endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights” why did it take a punch of guys in Philadelphia, or the Magna Carta, or any other POLITICAL DOCUMENT to cover the bet? I have argued this ad naseaum; ALL LAWS EXIST TO PROTECT PROPERTY/WEALTH. the “Bill of Rights” was a “roophy” slipped in our drink, or at best a balloon animal, made by a circus clown to keep the children occupied (as in: it’s really a ballon filled with air, and not a dog. monkey or pirate hat). again, as Carlin noted, “rights are not rights if they can be taken away…” he notes Japanese internment in 1942 (the first “war on terrorism”). at the end of the day, some sort of civil order is preferable to anarchy (I suppose), but I would submit that anarchy is preferable to oligarchy, which is what we have. I have suggested before, “freedom” or “rights” are no different than any commodity, equity, or currency in the financial markets, when viewed in the political market.

quod erat demonstrandum

October 25th, 2010
8:57 am

Rey,

Beg to differ – Coons couldn’t answer what the 5 freedoms enshrine in the 1st Amendment were.

At least O’Donnel knew that Separation of Church and State was NOT in the First Amendment.

Union

October 25th, 2010
8:58 am

bottom line.. this guy is gonna be well compensated for his two weeks in jail.. he more or less hit the lottery..

Nice Guy

October 25th, 2010
9:01 am

Cynthia-

You forgot to mention that the Tea Party is also in favor of protecting this country and it’s citizens. There are exceptions to every rule and the example the NYT points out above is just that, an exception. I would much rather have to apologize to this al-Kidd character than to let him wild and free only to find out that he WAS, in fact, a material witness and therefore has material connections elsewhere in the world.

All you Left-nuts just love to point out the exceptions and then wave it in the air while you scream “But, but, what about this?” as you stick your tongue out. Some on this and the Bookman blog have perfected that skill.

ken R

October 25th, 2010
9:02 am

First Tucker couldn’t stand the Teaparty, now she wants them to save the World. Don’t worry Tucker they will. Nov.2

Jeffrey

October 25th, 2010
9:04 am

I guess nobody told the Tea Partiers to care about those amendments yet. They’re still learning the first and second. Somehow, I don’t think they’ll take your cue Cynthia (but nice try).

Bob

October 25th, 2010
9:05 am

REY, the Tea Party people knew more about the healthcare bill than dem reps did.

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
9:06 am

Jimmy62

October 25th, 2010
9:08 am

Yes, the Tea Party cares. They care about all the Constitution, but you can’t fight every battle, and violations of the 1st and 2nd and our pocketbooks are far more egregious and the current topic at hand.

I’m not out protesting against murder, but that doesn’t mean I think murder is a good thing. What a waste of a column, when you could have been writing about something significant!

Cynthia isn’t put protesting the sexual exploitation of children, thus she supports the sexual exploitation of children!

Your logic, not mine.

Union

October 25th, 2010
9:11 am

gg.. makes sense to me.. an anti us.. anti bush.. anti war.. website releases data to prove their point.. lmao.. you believed obama too didnt you?

verbal kint

October 25th, 2010
9:11 am

around 200 words, a cut and paste from the NY Times…Hell, I could do this job at the AJC. Just throw in some sob story about how “the man” is keeping us down…whatever

Education

October 25th, 2010
9:12 am

AJC headline…”Employers may drop health insurance”…. but Comrade’s Obama, Nancy and Harry promised this won’t happen…that we will be able to choose…..Nancy told us…”We need to pass Obamacare so the public can find out what is in it” If you didn’t know then…now you know.

paleo-neo-Carlinist

October 25th, 2010
9:12 am

Union, and your astute observation illustrates the link between financial markets and political markets. to wit; Kathryn Johnston had rights, but when her rights were ignored (they were not violated, the APD simply ignored her rights in favor of a “no knock warrant” as it prosecuted the rightless war on drugs). how about CT’s Friday post re: marijuana laws? how about the legal challenges to the Obama healthcare law? we will have states litigating against the federal government in or to have a judge or judges determine the pecking order of certain “inalienable rights”. do you folks undertsand this? in anarchy a person’s “right to life” or “property rights” are determined by his/her ability to defend himself and his property against those who would take by force. is “the law” any different? either our rights are universal and “inalienable” or they are a card trick. does it take a politician (lawmaker who is owned by a special interest) or a judge. for heaven’s sake, women didn’t have th right to vote until the 20th century. slaves had no rights (or dissimilar rights to free men) until the 1865. were the “Founding Fathers” simply not paying attention when then divined the wishes of the “Creator” when they drafted the original bill of rights? again, as Carlin notes, if the original Constitution was so brilliant, why has it been amended 23 times since it was ratified?

lovelyliz

October 25th, 2010
9:12 am

tea partiers care as much about the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth amendments as they do the 9th Commandment (8th if you are Catholic)

ken R

October 25th, 2010
9:13 am

Granny true, but you forgot who the Congress was and how they voted, don’t stop short, tell it all.

If you would have served your country, something few Liberals ever do , you would know that those things happen in any War, that’s why they say War is Hell.

Nice Guy

October 25th, 2010
9:13 am

Granny –

I love the line about the WMDs not ever being found, I just love it! See, what people forget to mention is that the US and the rest of the world TOLD Saddam for months, that, on a given date the inspectors were going to come to Iraq and search for the WMDs. They kept telling him that even as that given date approached. What would anybody with a lick of sense do? I’ll tell you; they would get rid of their WMDs. And that’s exactly what happened. So, it should be a suprise to no one that nothing was found.

James

October 25th, 2010
9:17 am

Keep Up- sorry dude- you sound like the Black Knight on Monty Python- defending the indefensible is an unusual calling.

Bobby

October 25th, 2010
9:18 am

Obama has been a hugh disappointment. He is little more than more tanned Bush. He has kept us involved in the Bush Wars, done little for the economy, and failed to deliver a transparent health care policy. I am not voting for him in 2012 as I did so enthusiastically in 2008 unless the choice comes down to Palin or Newt Gingrich and him. Change simply has not happened during his administration.

T-Town

October 25th, 2010
9:18 am

Granny; Most of the items listed by Wikileaks are probably true and can’t be argued with, but this is looking at the problem with 20/20 hindsight. What has to be looked at is what was known at the time the decision was made. I would venture to say Bush, just like LBJ did with Vietnam, listened to his advisers prior to going to war. I, like you, wasn’t there, but now believe the war was a mistake. Again, this is also with 20/20 hindsight.

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
9:18 am

Union

CBS…yep real anti-us…..in fact they have you scheduled on the CBS sponsored bus to the internment camps.

CBS has been watching your house for years. They have implanted a chip
in your brain and can track you everywhere.

You do know they have been keeping Walter Cronkites head alive in
an iced tea pitcher?

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
9:20 am

ken r

nope and nope

and a real big nope

hat trick!

Robert

October 25th, 2010
9:21 am

The “tea party” are a very dangerous home grown terroist group that has demonstrated its anger against Blacks, Hispanics, gay & lesbians, Muslims and Jews. The “tea party” weapons of choice are hatred, fear and rage/mob mentality. The NAACP did not go far enough by labeling the “tea party” as racist. The NAACP should treat the “tea party” as a terroist group whose membership includes klansmen and skin heads.. The American People are sick and tired of ALL terroist, home grown or foreign.

williebkind

October 25th, 2010
9:21 am

“Contrary to what some of what you post, our hostess does not always agree with our President.”

This is just misdirection by the liberal media! AJC is like the VIEW. It’s my view or you are racist bigot. Things are getting scary for the progressive liberals and now their tone has changed. It is merely a ploy to glean votes at the last minute.

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
9:21 am

T-Town

For me opposition to the war in Iraq began BEFORE the war in Iraq.

Not hind sight, fore sight.

Jimmy62

October 25th, 2010
9:22 am

Nice Guy: We should also define WMDs. Before Saddam, it meant nuclear and chemical weapons. We found plenty of chemical weapons in Iraq designed to cause widespread harm to large groups of people, but since the left and the media don’t want to admit WMDs were found, all of the sudden chemical weapons are no longer WMDs.

But if you think chemicals designed to be dispersed over a large area and negatively affect the health of a large number of people are weapons of mass destruction, then yes, lots of WMDs were found all over Iraq, with signs of lots more that was hidden or removed.

Buzz Gross

October 25th, 2010
9:22 am

Goodbye Ms. Tucker and the lefty Democrats. Don’t let the door hit you in your over-sized bottom on your way out.

Go Tea Party!

quod erat demonstrandum

October 25th, 2010
9:22 am

paleo-neo-Carlinist,

Counting the original bill of rights – make that 27 times the Constitution was amended.

I guess you also think we have 57 states like our President does.

Kamchak

October 25th, 2010
9:22 am

So, it should be a suprise[sic] to no one that nothing was found.

Ah yes, the ol “the absence of something is proof positive that something existed” argument.

:roll:

Nice Guy

October 25th, 2010
9:24 am

Jimmy62-

You are spot on.

T-Town

October 25th, 2010
9:24 am

Then you Granny, were one of the few. Many, including numerous leading Democrats, believed Iraq was hiding WMD and supported going after them.

ken R

October 25th, 2010
9:24 am

No hat trick Granny, Just Piffel

williebkind

October 25th, 2010
9:25 am

Well the Tea Party cares about the ammendmends just like most Americans. Some people think it should not apply to foreigners and the liberals would not either if they did not depend on their votes to stay in office. The constitution was written for the citizens of the United
States and not for the citizens of the world.

Nice Guy

October 25th, 2010
9:26 am

“Ah yes, the ol “the absence of something is proof positive that something existed” argument.”

Ol’ Kamchak. Care to add anything to the topic, or are you just going to sit back in the shadows and throw out snide remarks?

williebkind

October 25th, 2010
9:26 am

Kamchak

October 25th, 2010
9:22 am
Yea sort of like global warming.

Education

October 25th, 2010
9:26 am

Killing thousands of Kurds by gassing them might fit the description of WMD

Hobby

October 25th, 2010
9:29 am

Are Granny an CT the same person….I mean really….has anybody ever seen them in the same place at the same time?….Clark Kent

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
9:29 am

T Town

Correct.

Many Democrats believed the lies the Bush Administration was peddling.

The 23 Senators and 133 Housemembers with foresight should be applauded.

Where are any of the liberals?

October 25th, 2010
9:30 am

President Obama (we apparently know where he stands on issue), Eric Holder, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, etc. Could it be that they actually support the idea of shielding the AG from lawsuits so that they themselves don’t become subject to them? That would seem pretty logical.

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
9:30 am

hobby

is hobby and about 50% of the posters the same troll?

CYNT U MUST KEEP UR JOB

October 25th, 2010
9:30 am

WHEN THEY CAME AND GOT THE BLACKS,ARABS,GAYS,MUSLIMS,ASIANS,INDIANS,HISPANICS,HINDUS,ATHEIST,BUHDAIST,DEMOCRAP,INDEPENDENT,POOR,BLIND AND WHEN IT WAS TIME FOR THE TEA PARTY,THERE WAS NO ONE TO SAVE THEM!

Angry As Hell

October 25th, 2010
9:31 am

Jimmy62

Would these be the same chemical weapons we gave to Saddam in his war against Iran in the 1980s? And aren’t these the same chemical weapons used against his Kurdish people? You know…the ones Donald Rumsfeld gave Saddam when Rumsfeld was Secretary of Defense under Ronnie Reagan and George H.W. Bush?

Nice Guy

October 25th, 2010
9:31 am

What’s wrong Granny, don’t want to comment on my 9:13?

4 Change

October 25th, 2010
9:33 am

Ms. Tucker, if you want to know where we are check on Nov. 2nd. We will be at the polls voting and taking our country back. The country that your very arrogant president has refused to listen to when the majority speaks. You are very good for us tea partiers as we love to see you rag on us, when you and your kind are the ones that are so out of touch with what we want. You know a balanced budget, jobs, the right to pursue happiness, instead of the Dems and libs shoving their agenda down our throats with bigger government and higher taxes and a health care bill that will be a disaster. Oh yeah, and all you repubs we are watching you too, you know all of you that have been wined and dined by corporate America and have sold us out to corporate America. The dems are first on the list, but do not sit easy repubs you are not much better. So come to the polls next Tuesday Ms. Tucker and witness average Americans fed up with you and your kind and your party start to take OUR country back. If you do not like it why not move say to Africa, or maybe communist China, and take Odummy with you. He is far to far in over his head

John

October 25th, 2010
9:33 am

CT,

Today’s blog is horrible. What does any of it have to do with the Tea Party? Just the parting cheap shot in your last sentence. Oh, and the totally misleading headline.

T-Town

October 25th, 2010
9:34 am

“The 23 Senators and 133 Housemembers with foresight should be applauded.”

Of course if WMDs were found then would you still be applauding these members (and yes I know none was found, but what if)?

Nice Guy

October 25th, 2010
9:35 am

Granny – “The 23 Senators and 133 Housemembers with foresight should be applauded.”

It must be noted that most of the 23 Senators you are so proud of are Democrats. With names like Levin, Kennedy and Feingold, one may think that they were voting ‘No’ simply to vote against a Republican President. Oh, wait, only the Republicans can be the party of No….ok, sorry, almost forgot.

HDB

October 25th, 2010
9:38 am

williebkind October 25th, 2010
9:25 am
“Well the Tea Party cares about the ammendmends just like most Americans. Some people think it should not apply to foreigners and the liberals would not either if they did not depend on their votes to stay in office. The constitution was written for the citizens of the United
States and not for the citizens of the world.”

When foreigners are on AMERICAN SOIL…they are also afforded the SAME constitutional protections as American citizens!! They are NOT afforded the same RIGHTS!! There IS a difference!!

The problem with the Tea Party is that they are focused primarily on the 10th Amendment…and that would have been the basis being used to maintain segregation!! In certain cases, FEDERAL law must supercede state law to insure that ALL Americans have constitutional protection!! States’ rights would have denied minority-Americans complete constitutional protactions UNLESS intervention by the federal government had taken place!! That’s what too many don’t realize!!

williebkind

October 25th, 2010
9:39 am

Tea Party will replace the progressive liberal ideology. It the motivator to bring out those who care about American values and traditions. Soon the ACLU members and donators will be identified and pictured all over the internet with their socialist history.

quod erat demonstrandum

October 25th, 2010
9:39 am

Angry As Hell,

As a good leftie, you should know that chemical weapons are not legal under many UN treaties

Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare – 1925

Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production, Stockpiling and Use of Chemical Weapons and on their Destruction – 1968

.

AFret

October 25th, 2010
9:39 am

Thank goodness the New Times comes out earlier than the AJC. CT’s work is done with simple cut & paste!

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
9:41 am

Nice guy

your 9:13

kamchak handled that correctly.

your 9:35

so is the equal and opposite reaction true?

one may think that they were voting YES simply to vote FOR a Republican President?

williebkind

October 25th, 2010
9:41 am

“When foreigners are on AMERICAN SOIL…they are also afforded the SAME constitutional protections as American citizens!!”

Where is that written? Is that another law by a judge?

williebkind

October 25th, 2010
9:43 am

HDB:
We have resolved the constitutional rights of all Americans. You do not need to keep bringing up a done deal.

quod erat demonstrandum

October 25th, 2010
9:43 am

HDB,

If that was the case, then there would be no need for States Constitutions.

For example,

We have a Second Amendment, but the Georgia Constitution regulates how and where a firearm is carried.

Following your argument, the State has no right to do that. That would be great, it would allow greater freedom.

HDB

October 25th, 2010
9:44 am

4 Change October 25th, 2010
9:33 am
“We will be at the polls voting and taking our country back.”
Question: Back to WHERE??

“You know a balanced budget, jobs, the right to pursue happiness, instead of the Dems and libs shoving their agenda down our throats with bigger government and higher taxes and a health care bill that will be a disaster.” Excuse me…but the expanse of government was accomplished by REPUBLICANS – starting with Ronald Reagan, maintained by the Bushes!! Where was your level of outrage when the nation was BUSHwhacked?? The tax INCREASES are a Republican idiom!! Reagan increased taxes in the 80s….Bush increased taxes (read my lips….)….and the Republicans’ passing the “cuts” through reconciliation made a tax INCRERASE inevitable!! The only budget SURPLUS was accomplished in a DEMOCRATIC Administration!!

BTW….who is denying you the possibility of your pursuit of happiness?? Who has shoved an anti-American ideology down anyone’s throats??

Nice Guy

October 25th, 2010
9:46 am

“kamchak handled that correctly.”

I wasn’t responding to Kamchak (because he rarely posts a thought about a topic), I was responding to you and your “no WMD were found” battle cry.

“so is the equal and opposite reaction true?”

I would say, in this case, no. The vote was too overwhelming in favor of the invasion.

James

October 25th, 2010
9:47 am

The late Bloomberg News reporter Mark Pittman asked the U.S. Treasury in January 2009 to identify $301 billion of securities owned by Citigroup Inc. that the government had agreed to guarantee. He made the request on the grounds that taxpayers ought to know how their money was being used.

More than 20 months later, after saying at least five times that a response was imminent, Treasury officials responded with 560 pages of printed-out e-mails — none of which Pittman requested. They were so heavily redacted that most of what’s left are everyday messages

Real unemployment around 17%. Large bailouts produce double digit returns to the gov’t through PPIP yet we have the largest deficit in history. Yes indeed- if you are far right or far left you are in fact enabling fascism.

StJ

October 25th, 2010
9:47 am

“Where are the tea partiers?”

Coming soon to a polling place near you.

kimmer

October 25th, 2010
9:49 am

“Do tea partiers care about the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth amendments?”

Yes of course they do but for the moment the focus is on out of control government spending.

Dave

October 25th, 2010
9:50 am

In one week, the correction of America begins and it looks like it could be a bigger romp by the GOP than originally thought. Even the Dems are distancng themselves from Obama in the hopes that the appearance of “I don’t agree with Obama” my save their liberal behinds. Cynthia, how does it feel ranting a raving about how wonderful Obama and the liberal policies are, yet you may be the only one in the building that believes that? Obama could go Jim Jones and you would still sweep the sidewalk in front of him as he walked. The smoke and mirrors of tis administration has cleared. America wins again!

Union

October 25th, 2010
9:51 am

gg.. now i see what the issue is.. cbs reported it.. as given to it by wikileaks.. no wonder obama has you snowed..

HDB

October 25th, 2010
9:52 am

williebkind October 25th, 2010
9:41 am/9:43 am
“Where is that written? Is that another law by a judge?”

No..it’s not written…..but quite evident. Haven’t you noted when foreigners are charged with a crime in the US?? They are afforded the same constitutional protections (Miranda, 5th Amendment….habeas corpus…et.al…..)…but not the same constitutional RIGHTS!!

All Americans do NOT have the same constitutional rights; gay Americans do NOT have the right to marry in every state…..even though it is both constitutionally protected….and protected by foreign treaty!!

quod erat demonstrandum October 25th, 2010
9:43 am

I stated in CERTAIN cases….so the state does have its moments!! Note: certain crimes are adjudicated solely on the state level (murder, theft…) and the more egregious crime (violation of rights, federal statutes) are judged on the federal level. In certain cases, they may overlap…….

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
9:52 am

yes, nice guy I know you were responding to me, but my response would have been the same as Kam’s.

no need to re-invent the wheel every time a silly, debunked, poorly
researched talking point pops up.

Angry As Hell

October 25th, 2010
9:53 am

qed

So, I guess the use of Agent Orange in Vietnam was excluded from those treatise because it was technically categorized as herbicide, ca. 1967 to 1971.

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
9:55 am

Shawny

October 25th, 2010
9:55 am

Here is what they are outraged about:
“Gov. Phil Bredesen, D-Tenn., said the economics of dropping coverage are “about to become very attractive to many employers, both public and private.”

So, you say over and over again that the healthcare debacle is going to reduce the deficit. Yet, there are no telling how many companies will drop coverage (because it is cheaper), allowing more citizens to go on the dole. The cost will be much higher than anticipated, mark my words, and it will not reduce the deficit.

And those ammendments apply to US citizens. Not enemy combatants.

T-Town

October 25th, 2010
9:57 am

All the rhetoric coming from both the right and the left is deafening. May I suggest to all an editorial written by Charley Reese entitled “545″ which was first written in 1985, republished in 1995, and again rehashed recently with name changes that fit the era. If you doubt it’s authenticity, check with Snopes.

Harry Callahan

October 25th, 2010
9:57 am

Cynthia…

piffle

Nice Guy

October 25th, 2010
9:59 am

“no need to re-invent the wheel every time a silly, debunked, poorly
researched talking point pops up.”

Precisely. Problem is, though, you can’t debunk the fact that Saddam moved the weapons prior to the inspection BECAUSE we continued to tell him we were coming to inspect…rather than show up unannounced.

That’s ok though, Granny, you keep living in your world of tangibles & absolutes, while turning a blind eye to the real world.

gator24

October 25th, 2010
9:59 am

There is a lot of confusion in this years electorate when comes to rights as an American. The Tea Party come about through Lobbyist and Billionaires who want to control the Political progress and future of America. The tax cuts and the deficit are supposedly more important than individual rights. The tax cuts which are suppose to create jobs,and haven’t over the past ten years. There is very little logic,only wedge issues cause people to be misguided such as gay marriage, cap and trade, health insurance and immigration reform. People are afraid of these issues just as they were years ago of Civil Rights and Voter Rights. I am not sure when there will be a protest concerning individual rights, however poor people and the middle class have supported the wealthy over their own self interests and will continue to do so in this election. Why isn’t their immigration reform and energy reform which only benefit limited number of people.

Dave

October 25th, 2010
10:00 am

Granny, it was in southern California….duh. There are small pockets here and there, but unless you prefer to close your eyes and put your hands over your ears, you can read and watch the political ads stating what I said. The best path for ANY GOP candidate to take is to put the Dem opponent in the same light as Obama. The Dems had their chance and all they did was light a fuse and blow that chance to smithereens. Good job!!!!

Jack

October 25th, 2010
10:03 am

What we have here is more fence-straddling; which becomes necessary when one is on the wrong side of the fence. Face-saving is important, y’know.

Tea Partier

October 25th, 2010
10:03 am

Hey Cynthia. Saw you on Meet the Press yesterday and heard your crass comment about Tea Partiers would end up killing each other. What a stupid thing to say. So typical of your liberal blather. And I love how you liberals like to pick and choose your amendments you like and choose to ignore, then throw it out there like a loaded stick of dynamite when your silly little minds come up with a lost cause issue. Get some meat on your issues girl if you want to fight the peoples fight.

Memphis11Gate

October 25th, 2010
10:03 am

People, you can’t reason with Tucker and her liberal friends. She is too far left wing and a product of the Black Liberation Power movement of the 1960’s which has failed the community and society. These radicals did not believe in MLK principles or the principles of the founding fathers because they had slaves.

She never writes about Obama’s abuse of his authority getting legislation passed and his appointing Zars, and backroom deals; his financial malfeasance in Chicago, no writing about his association with a terrorist named Bill Ayers that bombed a police station; no writings about his association with Frank Reigns whom after cooking the books at Fannie Mae left with a 19 million dollar bonus. She only writes about Republicans, people that are against the ACLU and other garbage to promote the Democratic propaganda machines.

Gm

October 25th, 2010
10:05 am

4 change: Taking your country back? Are you going to give it back to the Indians? This type of racist talk is what makes the tea party a bunch of racist bigots. We have seen your undeducated people running for office, they have no solutions just a lot of new lines.

Where was this new love for the counry when George Bush was destroying America? I can not waite to see you bigots on face on Nov 3, Liberals are comming out, the polls are tighten up we are not going back to the party that destroyed America.

Gerald West

October 25th, 2010
10:06 am

“Whom the Gods would destroy, they first make mad.”

The tea partiers are angry at the wrong things, so they cannot be placated. The movement is a manipulation of the poor and desperate by the greedy and privileged. The natural anger of those affected by the recession is being diverted from the cause and re-directed to another victim, the government.

The government did not cause the recession and cannot lift us out of it. The government can, and does, provide assistance to ease the pain of the jobless and the uninsured

The economic recession was caused by the systemic failure of American big business. Our economy will not recover until American commerce and industry is restructured to suppress monopolistic practices and restore free market, world-class competition.

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
10:07 am

Nice Guy

and unless you have a direct line to Iraq’s former dictator, you can only assume your scenario…..

Memphis11Gate

October 25th, 2010
10:07 am

Tucker what about the headline on AJC today?

WASHINGTON — The new health care law wasn’t supposed to undercut employer plans that have provided most people in the U.S. with coverage for generations.
FILE – In this Jan. 13, 2010, file photo Democratic Tennessee Gov. Phil Bredesen speaks in Nashville, Tenn. The new health care law wasn’t supposed to undercut employer plans that have provided most people in the U.S. with coverage for generations. But said Bredesen, “The economics of dropping existing coverage is about to become very attractive to many employers, both public and private.” (AP Photo/Mark Humphrey, File)

But last week a leading manufacturer told workers their costs will jump partly because of the law. Also, a Democratic governor laid out a scheme for employers to get out of health care by shifting workers into taxpayer-subsidized insurance markets that open in 2014.

————————————————————————————————————

It seems most of the country now knows the real Obama, he’s a F3, fraud, fake, fool. Democrats think Obama is in the words of Fred G. Sanford “you big DUMMY”.

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
10:14 am

Dave

Same kind of distancing in Columbus OH, Philadelphia PA, Cleveland OH,
Milwaukee WI, Chicago IL, LasVegas NV, Seattle WA……

Lotsa’ pockets….

Dave

October 25th, 2010
10:14 am

Memphis11gate, truer words have never been uttered. You can’t reason with the Democrats, Liberals and especially Cynthia. They are just blinded like sheep following their leader right off the cliff. A liberals worst nightmare is the truth and reality. They simply cherry pick their agenda and will not debate anything else. If you press them, they utter “Racist”, “Bigot”, “Greedy corporations” and class warfare. It’s best to just keep out mouths shut and let them dig their own grave. I saw a train of Uhaul trucks heading to DC and the cleaning out of the trash begins!

Memphis11Gate

October 25th, 2010
10:15 am

Gm you only hear what you want to hear. I heard the same talk when Bush was in office mainly about opposition to the war and fiscal ill-responsibility from Bush and the prescription drug program which was a waste of tax payers money. I also heard from you liberals, K@L^ Bush every day, Bush=Hitler, Bush go to H$#LL, Bush the monkey, Bush the dummy, Bush I hope gets H1V, so now you hear what you want to hear, intensified by the liberal media. Gm, Democrats have been running congress since 2007. Republican voters voted for Obama, some of the tea partiers or tea baggers as you would say. WAKE UP!!!

HDB

October 25th, 2010
10:15 am

Memphis11Gate October 25th, 2010
10:07 am

Too many people haven’t thought about how health care reform WILL affect them; they are thinking how it will SUPPOSEDLY affect them!!

One aspect that hasn’t been considered –

….from the same AJC article:

Erin Shields, a spokeswoman for the senators who wrote that part of the law, says she’s confident that when companies do the math, they’ll decide to keep offering coverage.

That’s because employers get to deduct the cost of workers’ health care from the company’s taxes. Take away the health plan and two things happen: Employers lose the deduction and they’ll probably have to pay workers more to get them to accept the benefit cut. Not only will the company’s income taxes go up, but the employer will also face a bigger bill for Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes. So it’s not as simple as paying $2,000 and walking away.

“It is clearly cheaper for employers to continue providing coverage,” Shields said.

Another wrinkle: the health insurance tax credits available through the law are keyed to relatively Spartan insurance plans, not as generous as most big employers provide. Send your workers into the insurance exchange, and valuable employees might jump to a competitor that still offers health care.

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:17 am

Cynthia – you are throwing the sh1t against the fan, just to see what sticks. very, very desperate my dear hottie. You know darn well the focus of the TE party is lower taxes, and unconstitutional tax/fee assessments – mainly from Obummer care. I would say less than 25% of the citizens of this country know enough about the constitution to be outraged at the violation of these amendments. However, i also share your anger about the Bush admins flagrant abuse of its police power – heck, Obummer has kept “extraordinary rendition” in effect, why are you not attacking the MAN IN POWER? As opposed to the movement to simply reduce the cost of government?

T-Town

October 25th, 2010
10:18 am

Gm: “Where was this new love for the counry when George Bush was destroying America?”

They were working, as was their family members. Now, whether they retired or were retired, they have time on their hands and want to know why. Healthcare is great, unless you’ve lost your job and your home.

Kamchak

October 25th, 2010
10:18 am

Care to add anything to the topic, or are you just going to sit back in the shadows and throw out snide remarks?

That seems to be the best way of dealing with piffle.

Gm

October 25th, 2010
10:19 am

4 change: Telling some one to move back to Africa: Another rednceck that does not know their history, whites are not from this country, do the reseach you stupid hick.
The world sees what a bunch of racist the tea party are, poor President Obama actually thought most white americans would help him thru the worst crisis of our time. The averag black person knew what kind of people we had in this country we were waiting on the modern day KKK (tea parter) to show up the second day he was elected, so this did not surpise us, you only get respect from these bigots if you are playing football, basketball, they dont have the understanding of a educated black man, George Bush could have lead them to hell and they would not or did not say anything.

Tea Partier

October 25th, 2010
10:20 am

Hey GM. In case you haven’t been paying attention (which of course, is obviously not) the Tea Party is made up of middle to upper class who have worked their entire lives paying into the system only to get it “redistributed” by the liberal democrats to those generations of welfare legacy families who have never worked a day in their lives.

They are the ones with free healthcare, housing, food and high def TV’s in their Section 8 housing. All paid for by these very people who have for once raised up their hand and said “I’m not taking it anymore!”. You don’t stand a chance babe, we are taking back our country whether you like it or not. And, by the way Gerald West, how many Gods do you have?

Gm

October 25th, 2010
10:23 am

T town: George Bush lost over 5 million jobs, sent our jobs over seas, Gas prices were $4 Gallon, where was the Tea party then????

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:24 am

Obummer, who has never run a business, and has scant experience in the federal government, MUST know that big corporations have earnings targets – insurance appears to be 5-8%, with the gross profits coming from volume sales, and some monopolistic protection by their home state. When you increase the cost of business (no max pay, cover those with existing conditions without charging more vs. a healthy person), then the cost to each unique customer must increase – to comply with the law & to maintain your target profit margin. Now, with the cost becoming egregious, and the existence of “VA” type government insurance on the horizon, it is no longer viable for many small (under 100) companies to offer insurance, so they will simply drop it, and let the individual pay for it themselves. Will your salary go up? Not likely. One of those million “unintended” (read: we did not study the bill we passed thoroughly enough to understand all the particular impacts) consequences of this horrible legislative act – and one very similar to Barnes getting rid of the old state flag – barnes got dems kicked out of Georgia for the last decade, and Obummer the Orator without substance will do the same thing nationally. If the repubs really embrace the TEA party line, and eliminate the deficit, you may never see the democrats back in power.

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
10:25 am

Bush, who ran a business, didn’t do such a hot job now did he?

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:26 am

Gm – Clinton sent jobs overseas by signing NAFTA – or don’t your remember that? Combine that with the annointing of China with permanent “most favored nation status” – also under Clinton – and you know why most things at Walmart say made in China.

T-Town

October 25th, 2010
10:27 am

Gm: “T town: George Bush lost over 5 million jobs, sent our jobs over seas, Gas prices were $4 Gallon, where was the Tea party then????”

They were working. Who’s fault doesn’t matter as what I hear is that the Tea Party is just as upset with the right as it is with the left. Gm I suggested a reading of an editorial earlier by Charley Reese titled “545.” Read it, it’s very enlightening.

Gm

October 25th, 2010
10:27 am

Tea Partier(bigot) We are comming out, liberal, muslims, gays, blacks.
This is not your country”"” this is how stupid you people sound, take it back from the American people that voting for the President.

We are not going back to 1959, the way you bigots want it””’

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:27 am

granny – how much of his deficit came from the two wars, which Bush did not anticipate? I have also stated that democrats problem with Bush is he spent like a democrat – which is why the dems came back into power in 07.

Gm

October 25th, 2010
10:28 am

Enter your comments here

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:29 am

Who here supports the earned income credit? If you support it, please explain why it is the obligation of government to operate this program.

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
10:30 am

Paddy O

If Bush did not anticipate the debt from the wars he did an even worse job than we thought.

Did he think he could pay for it with pixie dust?

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:30 am

gm – you also know that obummer won for 2 reasons – people who NEVER vote, came out & voted for Obummer; and McCain selected an unqualified candidate for VP, which prompted a lot of people to question his judgement.

Dave

October 25th, 2010
10:30 am

Of course, GM….it’s all about racism. It’s ALWAYS about racism…isn’t it? When a whita man and a black man run for office and the white man wins, it because of racism. SURELY it couldn’t be about policies or agenda, could it? Every single vice in the black community is a result of something the white community did. Am I right about this? It could NEVER be anything BUT that. Here’s a note to write on your refirgerator….until you start taking personal responsibility for your actions and predicament and stop blaming it on someone else, the environment, your social status, (enter any other factor), your plight will never change. You will always put yourself as “the victim”, “the unfortunate”, “the unlucky” and you will remain where you are. There are MANY minority figures that DIDN’T fall into that quagmire and became very successful. They do it every day. The only person holding you back….is YOU.

Left wing management

October 25th, 2010
10:30 am

You’re asking the right questions, Cynthia, which is refreshing considering the failure of people such as Wolf Blitzer, John King, Christian Amanpour, etc. to ask them. Yesterday on Amanpour’s show a Democratic strategist actually made the statement that the Tea Party movement is critical of the Republican party just as Democrats are, apparently implying that the Tea Party is effective an ally of the Left. Idiotic. With friends like that, who needs extremists. The task of an analyst is not to simply observe the obvious surfaces of things, but to ask WHY and to tease out the obfuscations of the dominant ideologies. Nowadays there’s nothing more dominant as an ideology than the Tea Party – and things are NOT as they appear.

MSEcon

October 25th, 2010
10:31 am

I stopped reading this opinion piece when I saw CT refer to herself as a “civil libertarian”. From that one claim, I know that the rest of the words coming out of her keyboard are pure rubbish.

Harry Callahan

October 25th, 2010
10:31 am

“Do tea partiers care about the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth amendments?”

Better question…do DEMOCRATS care about the Fourht, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments? Because they’ve been in complete control for nearly two years now and haven’t done squat to protect any of the three.

quod erat demonstrandum

October 25th, 2010
10:31 am

Gm,

Why are the lefties so afraid of limited Government and personal responsibilities?

Why is the left so afraid of Congress actually following the Constitution?

Why are the lefties so worried about their free handouts and not having to work for a living?

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:32 am

Bush believed as Reich & Cheney did – that deficits do not matter – that is a Democrat perspective. You can NOT run two wars and give people a big tax reduction, which is what Bush did. The TEA party has occured because those who support realize that democrats are dedicated tax & spend and repubs under Bush/Delay could NOT control their spending.

HDB

October 25th, 2010
10:32 am

Paddy O October 25th, 2010
10:29 am
Remember:earned income tax credit is a REPUBLICAN idea…done by Reagan in an attempt to raise low income people OUT of poverty!! IF EITC assists in raising a lower income family’s standard of living so that that family can SURVIVE…..isn’t that a good thing??

Keep up the good fight!

October 25th, 2010
10:33 am

Because they’ve been in complete control for nearly two years now

Look…Harry can shoot blanks!

Harry Callahan

October 25th, 2010
10:34 am

Anybody ever wonder why, if republicans and/or Tea Partiers oppose Obama it’s racism, but if Democrats oppose (indeed hate) Clarence Thomas, it’s just principaled opposition?

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:34 am

granny – all those professional financial people who write the paper to fund our bond issuance – who do you think they donate campaign $$$ to? Most likely repubs who like to deficit spend – look at Sonny Perdue – almost every year the last 8 years he has floated a billion dollars worth of bonds – but of course, he won’t be around to pay for it.

Harry Callahan

October 25th, 2010
10:36 am

Keep Up…what part of my assertion would you disagree with, leghumper?

Oh, and by the way…depending on government to provide a cradle-too-grave security blanket, which is what you clearly want, is hardly “keeping up a good fight.” In fact, it’s a total pu$$-out.

quod erat demonstrandum

October 25th, 2010
10:36 am

HDB,

The original Earned Income Credits was passed in – surprise – surprise – 1975 – Jimmy Carter’s term.

Yes, I know, it was expanded under Reagan, Clinton and Bush.

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:36 am

HDB – that sound like a might socialistic notion, no? Would it not be better to have domestic market protection via import tariffs, thus increasing the pay of those who make all the stuff we buy? Reagan ran a very large deficit – I would say that this is one of the reasons. Also, government is not created to things for individuals they should do for themselves (motivated self interest). It is created to do things that the individual can not do – such as build roads, or an aircraft carrier.

Keep up the good fight!

October 25th, 2010
10:36 am

Anybody ever wonder why, if republicans and/or Tea Partiers oppose Obama it’s racism

Anybody ever wonder why actual racists in the Tea Party are not considered to raise concerns among Tea Party members and are ignored?

Harry Callahan

October 25th, 2010
10:37 am

Poor little keep up…wets the bed at night in fear of the very notion of taking responsibility for his own life…

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:38 am

ever wondered why the NAACP does not announce the % of racists in its organization?

Harry Callahan

October 25th, 2010
10:38 am

Keep up the good fight!

October 25th, 2010
10:36 am

“Anybody ever wonder why actual racists in the Tea Party are not considered to raise concerns among Tea Party members and are ignored?”

Anybody ever wonder the same thing about Democrats, who elected a guy president who sat in church every Sunday for 20 years and listened to Jeremiah Wright spew unadulterated hatred of white people?

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:38 am

75 should be in Gerald Ford’s term.

HDB

October 25th, 2010
10:39 am

quod erat demonstrandum
October 25th, 2010
10:31 am

The government IS limited….limited to what WE as Americans give it the power to do!! No one that I know of is afraid of personal responsibility; the question is what are CONSERVATIVES afraid to allow society’s segments to EXERCISE that same responsibility when they desire it?? The responsibility to control their own body…the responsibility to determine whom to marry…

The only HANDOUT I’ve ever asked for is the ACCCESS and OPPORTUNITY to everything that EVERY American citizen has….nothing more….nothing less!! I WANT to work…and the only thing that has kept me FROM working is Republican politics when they are in control!!

Cowboy Bob

October 25th, 2010
10:39 am

Accept it my dear, we are but a week and a day away from liberation.

Harry Callahan

October 25th, 2010
10:40 am

…and by the way, does anybody have proof of racism among the tea party, or is that pretty much just wishful thinking on the part of liberals who are going to get gobsmacked at the polls in 8 days?

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:40 am

my experience with people who get EIC, which if you have kids could be 5-8 thousand dollars, is that they take that money and buy big ticket items – tvs, cars, etc. It is a program that MUST be terminated.

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
10:41 am

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:41 am

a student at UCLA inventoried slogans put out at a TEA party event, less than 5% were racially oriented.

Keep up the good fight!

October 25th, 2010
10:41 am

Is that the best you have Harry? By your “association” logic, you just proved that tea partiers are racists and terrorists.

Harry Callahan

October 25th, 2010
10:41 am

Keep Up, you were always the last one chosen when picking teams for kickball on the playground, weren’t you?

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:42 am

granny – that is the goal – locally created organizations that determine their purpose & activity.

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:43 am

I suspect there is more racism in the NCAAP than in the TEA party groups.

Harry Callahan

October 25th, 2010
10:43 am

Keep up, my comments regarding Obama and ev. Wright are factual. You have facts regarding tea party racism?

willie lynch

October 25th, 2010
10:43 am

I guess when you stop all the silliness and except the fact that nothing changes overnight in the political realm you can have more reasoned discussions.

This monster is not going back in the bag. The world is not going backward but it’s hurtling forward at a pace that we can’t keep up with. The hostilites between the some in the Islamic world and some in the West will continue for years to come because the extremist on both sides have hijacked rational behaviour. The policies of the U.S. will not change because it’s those policies that have so amped up the conservative muslims, hence causing the enviornment in which we now live.

Unfortunately the practices (renditions and the like) that are now in place(although not new) are only going to become more common in years to come and sadly too they will be more necessary because of the enviornment the U.S. has created. Americans will continue to be suspects in their own land, they will continue to be looked at with disdain around much of the globe, and they will continue to retreat into the narrow mindset of us against them.

We are going to have to sit and talk one day but it will be hard to see eye to eye when both parties agenda’s are dictated by conservative paronoia. Those aren’t liberal muslims calling for death to America.

Harry Callahan

October 25th, 2010
10:44 am

Granny, we’re going to find out how little the tea party does to engage in the political process next Tuesday.

stands for decibels

October 25th, 2010
10:44 am

those ammendments apply to US citizens.

not even remotely true. You don’t suddenly become subject to unreasonable searches and seizures in your home just because you aren’t a US citizen.

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:44 am

If Christine ODonnell wins, the repubs will take back both houses, then Obummer shall be effectively castrated, just like Slick Willie Clinton.

Keep up the good fight!

October 25th, 2010
10:44 am

Harry…when you have the weakest of arguments continue the personal attack…

Oh let me boo hoo…….

stands for decibels

October 25th, 2010
10:46 am

my comments regarding Obama and ev. Wright are factual.

I have yet to read a single solitary comment from a winger about Rev. Wright on the intertubes that was factual.

HDB

October 25th, 2010
10:47 am

Harry Callahan

October 25th, 2010
10:34 am
If you REALLY want to know why many Democrats (like myself) don’t care about Clarence Thomas…..it’s HYPOCRACY!! A man that claims that he made it on his own….but denies the fact that he IS a product of Affirmative Action…..and wishes to eliminate the same pathways that HE used to succeed…..

THAT’S the basis….no more!1 The better example is Colin Powell!!

Harry Callahan October 25th, 2010
10:38 am

Didn’t happen!! Jeremiah Wright DIDN’T espouse hatred towards white people….there are white members of his church…and lest you forget, Fr. Michael Flager ALSO spoke to the membership!! If you heard or READ the enitre sermon…you’d see that it’s NOT anti-white!!

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
10:47 am

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:48 am

willie agreed with most of what you said up to “rest of the world looks at us with disdain”. How do you know this, because MSNBC indicated so? IF they do, it is jealousy. We have the best system, the biggest economy. A republic is a messy place, operation wise. The liberal muslims are the “meek” getting blown up by the Satanist cowards operating the jihads. You see where we are winning in Afghanistan, now that we have applied adequate pressure, yes?

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:50 am

hdb – i think you are wearing rose colored glasses when judging the Rev. Wright.

HDB

October 25th, 2010
10:52 am

Paddy O October 25th, 2010
10:50 am

Nope — I’ve READ the enitre “GDA” sermon…….
Don’t think that I agree with EVERYTHING Rev. Wright has said…but much of what he’s said IS based in truth!! Sometimes, it’s truth we DON’T LIKE….but it’s truth novertheless!!

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:52 am

The US: Has the best Constitution, the most lethal military, a very charitable (too charitable to me – if we balance the budget, we can throw good money after bad) populace, a good system of helping people temporarily who want it. We span an entire continent with a ton of diversity from Montana to NYC, depending upon your personal preference, you can live alone with the elements, or surrounded by 8-10 million people riding a subway every day.

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:54 am

hdb – a person who supposedly had Jesus Christ flowing through him WOULD NEVER SAY GDA, since he did say it, he does not have Christ flowing through him, so he is simply a racist schuckster, feeding his followers what they want to hear.

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:54 am

hdb – how old is his truth? 40 years?

paleo-neo-Carlinist

October 25th, 2010
10:57 am

QED, please excuse mental typo. somehow the number 23 got in my brain. but really, does it matter how many times it has been amendned. if “rights” can be added/removed (let’s not forget when slavery was outlawed, slave owners lost their “property” rights as defined by the Dred Scott case). and isn’t it odd that the 26th Amendment gave 18 year-olds the “right to vote” but only because the politicians were drafting 18 year-old and sending them to kill or be killed in Southeast Asia (as per Article I Section 8)?

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
11:00 am

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
10:54 am
hdb – a person who supposedly had Jesus Christ flowing through him WOULD NEVER SAY GDA

Jesus told me you were wrong about that.

He was pretty pissed off about all that torture stuff and the Tuskeegee experiment and things like that…..

He’s not real impressed with you at the moment either…

jezzie1

October 25th, 2010
11:01 am

Ms. Tucker, It would be nice if you actually wrote an opinion piece instead of copying the entire text of someone else’s stories.

HDB

October 25th, 2010
11:05 am

Paddy O October 25th, 2010
10:54 am

First – damnation IS a Biblical policy….so in the proper context (which too many things – especially POLITICALLY..are taken OUT OF!), he may have been RIGHT!! I recommend that you Google the speech…and read it!! Many won’t come to the same conclusion as I did…but that is due to their own personal analysis/point of reference!!

Second – in many aspects, Rev. Wright’s truth (in HIS eyes…can’t speak for the man!) may be CURRENT!! The main question is this: How many can SEE his truth….or are they blinded by the Limbaughs and Hannitys??

HDB

October 25th, 2010
11:06 am

BTW…Good MORNING…GG!!

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
11:06 am

jezzie1

it would be nice if you stuck to one name too…..

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
11:07 am

HDB

Good Morning to you too!

quod erat demonstrandum

October 25th, 2010
11:08 am

paleo-neo-Carlinist,

Rights are never granted or taken away, just the protection of them – our rights are unalienable as stated in the Declaration of Independence.

Dred Scott was overturned, but it did have an interesting twist on firearm rights.

The 18 year old vote – if you can die for your country, you should have a say with the vote – This was not a new right granted them, it extended the right to vote to them.

HDB

October 25th, 2010
11:11 am

quod erat demonstrandum
October 25th, 2010
11:08 am
“Rights are never granted or taken away….”

Not quite true; in many states, the right to VOTE is taken away by due process….or on some cases, political disenfranchisement!! Check the laws about reinstatement!! The right to own a firearm is taken away if convicted of a felony…..

Note some of the circumstances……

A Lumpkin Resident

October 25th, 2010
11:12 am

You are barking up the wrong tree Cynthia. Just because the Tea Party does not make your own personal Civil Liberty battle first and forefront on their agenda, that does not mean that we don’t care. Am I sick and tired of those “disturbing, unconstitutional policies that President Bush employed during the so-called war on terror” that Pres. Obama has seen fit to uphold and extend. However, it is YOUR responsibility to join the Tea Party movement and fight for the big government injustice that YOU want to see righted. You cannot expect a grassroots organization with no central organization to deliver a platform for your perusal. You want it done? DO IT. At least we are not as bad as the ACLU that , while under the guise of protecting civil liberties, refuses to defend the 2nd and makes that statement clear. To me, every single Amendment is worthy of fighting for. And finally, as much as the NYT and Cynthia Tucker would like to brand this as a Bush era problem, “absolute power corrupts absolutely” and the Democrats LOVE this control over the American people as much as the Republicans. A Democratic Congress has has 4 years to reign in that power, and a Democratic President has had two. Neither has even broached the subject of repealing and denouncing those anti-Constitutional policies.

Tech Man

October 25th, 2010
11:12 am

Memphis11Gate
October 25th, 2010
10:07 am

You are correct.

I told CT this when PPACT was passed and her terse reply was “we will have to wait and see”. Well we are seeing. The whole set up is to undo employer provided health care and get everyone covered as an individual. At the same time squeeze the insurance companies so the public demands the public option.

mystified

October 25th, 2010
11:13 am

I had to respond to this gator guy at 9:59. You, like many liberals, confuse individual rights with individual responsibility. It is your responsibility to take care of yourself and your family. It is not the tax payers. As a compassionate society, we create Temporary safety nets for when someone is down to help them get back on their feet. These were not intended to be complete protection from everything that ails or permanent. (Except social security of course which was intended to take care of mom and dad if they hadn’t saved enough on their own.)

If you are looking for protests, I’m still waiting for your protests for people not living up to their responsibilities.

You treat the tax cuts like the money belongs to the government. It doesn’t. It belongs to us. The gov’t doesn’t do us a favor by giving us a tax cut. We do the gov’t a favor by paying taxes.

Didn’t your daddy ever give you the speech about responsibility and taking care of yourself? Where did you get this “it’s better to take from everyone else to provide what I’m not willing to work for” mentality?

quod erat demonstrandum

October 25th, 2010
11:14 am

HDB,

Who ever said it was a perfect process?

Yes, rights can be limited due to the law – both state and federal.

You are right, an ex-felon can apply to have his/her rights restored. Kind of like getting you license back after you complete your DUI class. You still have the right, it is just suspended until certain processes are completed.

Ragnar Danneskjöld

October 25th, 2010
11:16 am

A state of war creates exceptions. We feel for the unfortunate Mr. Abdullah al-Kidd, whose greatest crime seemingly was going to the home of the 9/11/2001 attackers, to study the same religion the attackers affirmed as their motivation for attack. He was an innocent swept up in the wave, much like the wrongly-imprisoned Japanese under Roosevelt, and the Maryland legislature under Lincoln. The right solution has nothing to do with tort lawyers and John Ashcroft. A principled Congress should compensate Mr. al-Kidd for his injuries. Of course, principle is found only on the right, and we cannot expect democrats to do the right thing. The tea party congress should honor its convictions.

Tech Man

October 25th, 2010
11:20 am

HDB
October 25th, 2010
10:15 am

Wrong-o.

The spokesman for the Senators doesn’t have capital at risk. They “hope” it doesn’t cause employer provided insurance to end earlier than expected.
The HHS is troubled that Principal, one of your former employers, is basically giving their block to UHC. HHS didn’t foresee 130+ waivers to the MLR ruling.
HDB, look up the subsidies for those making less than $88,000 for a family of 4 and tell me how trying to match that to keep an employee from taking the subsidy is saving money.

pat

October 25th, 2010
11:21 am

Uh, this is all you could come up with? Fake outrage? What in the ruddy hell could this have to do with the tea party? This was a rather large stretch don’t you think?
Welp, since this is the best you could do, I am out.
It’s to stupid to ever bother mocking.

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
11:27 am

pat’s back!

are you ready to chage your mind about this blog being worthless?

quod erat demonstrandum

October 25th, 2010
11:29 am

CT,

Where is your outrage when a union worker gets fire from a job because he is wearing a sweat shirt from CVN-77 – The George H.W. Bush?

Where is your outrage at the phony attacks on the US Chamber of Commerce?

Where is your outrage when Speaker Pelosi says you have to pass the law before you can see what’s in it?

Harry Callahan

October 25th, 2010
11:30 am

Keep Up and HDB…I think you guys better view Jeremiah Wright on youtube and report back to the group here when you have a clue.

Tommy Maddox

October 25th, 2010
11:32 am

I read an article last week [which I now cannot find] that the military has continued all these years searching on a small scale for WMD and have made and continue to make numerous finds [but nothing on a grand scale]. The article mentioned item being mainly mustard gas or bllistering agents but that stuff may have been left over from the earlier days.

I wish this stuff would get covered in the press. If you believe it did not exist, then you would be incorrect.

paleo-neo-Carlinist

October 25th, 2010
11:33 am

QED, I was not commenting on any specific rights in mentioning the Dred Scott ruling, but simply to note that ALL rights are subject to the prevailing political wind, which means there are no rights. who died and gave the “government” the authority to “protect” or not protect (as in the Dred Scott case and 14th Amendment) the rights of slaves, vis a vis the rights of slave owners? who died and initially denied women the right to vote, but then decided it better to “protect” women’s suffrage? here’s a Constittional conundrum for you; the whole concept of rights (endowed by Creator) is rooted in the same arrogance as religion. namely that the average person is two weak, stupid, and helpless to exist without some “supreme being” or supreme document to bestow or withold rights. you know, maybe from an anthropoligical standpoint, every pack of wolves needs an alpha male, but in admitting as much, we must also admit that all rights are surrendered when one joins the pack. to wit; the only right in play is the “right” to behave as the leader of the pack orders (see: plutocracy/oligarchy for a more political understanding).

paleo-neo-Carlinist

October 25th, 2010
11:38 am

QED, your “where’s your outrage” questions continue to bolster my position. the fact that we “have the right” to express outrage doesn’t mean anything (again, ask Kathryn Johnston’s family). if as Ragnar suggests, a cash value can be placed on rights (victims can be compensated), there is certainly a ‘cash value’ which favors those who ignore rights. I repeat the herd analogy, rights are little more than “carrot and stick” and they exist (on paper) to get people to pull the wagon (or kill people of a different religious, political, ethnic ilk).

Keep up the good fight!

October 25th, 2010
11:39 am

Sure Harry….I am on it. Just so you can dodge the inconsistency in logic in your argument and the diversion. Remember it does not take a brain to pull a trigger and shoot your mouth off….even if you are shooting blanks.

Now again Harry…since you want guilt by association…why are the tea partiers terrorists? and racists?

quod erat demonstrandum

October 25th, 2010
11:42 am

paleo-neo-Carlinist,

I tend to disagree with you on several levels.

Man(and women) were created to be free people, not enslaved or oppressed. This is supported by how many times people will strive for freedom in the most repressive regimes.

As the Declaration of Independence says, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

We are endowed with the right to life – some on the left think this is their right to take away.
Liberty, allowed to govern oneself within a society.
Pursuit of Happiness – in some of the drafts this was the right to property, private property rights. Others did not want to limit this.

From Wikipedia – I know an unreliable source.

This tripartite motto is comparable to “liberté, égalité, fraternité” (liberty, equality, fraternity) in France,[citation needed], “life, liberty and prosperity” in Austrialia,[citation needed], or “peace, order and good government” in Canada.[8] It is also similar to a line in the Canadian Charter of Rights: “life, liberty, security of the person” (this line was also in the older Canadian Bill of rights, which added “enjoyment of property” to the list).

The phrase can also be found in Chapter III, Article 13 of the 1947 Constitution of Japan, and in President Ho Chi Minh’s 1945 declaration of independence of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam. An alternative phrase “life, liberty and property”, is found in the Declaration of Colonial Rights, a resolution of the First Continental Congress. The Fifth Amendment and Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution declare that governments cannot deprive any person of “life, liberty or property” without due process of law. Also, Article 3 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights reads, “Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.”

quod erat demonstrandum

October 25th, 2010
11:44 am

paleo-neo-Carlinist,

The outrage is that no one is outraged – No one thinks it is wrong or worth fighting for.

quod erat demonstrandum

October 25th, 2010
11:51 am

paleo-neo-Carlinist,

I think you might also be confusing “natural” rights and legal rights.

Two different things entirely.

You have a natural right to life, but a legal right to vote.

One is unalienable and one is legislated.

willie lynch

October 25th, 2010
11:56 am

Paddy,

The king may have all of the best things but that doesn’t make him beloved by his subjects.

I wish I could say we’re winng in Afghanistan but we don’t know that. These are a people who have resisted other “colonizers” before us they know when to stand down and appear defeated. They understand tehy will never win a military battle with the U.S. that’s why they will eventually enter a negotiated settlement. That does not mean a U.S. victory. When the U. S. leaves, Afghanistan will still be an 85% illiterate population no more versed in what democracy is than when the first U.S. troops invaded the country, they will still be ruled by people directly influenced by a strong conservative muslim minority and they won’t have anything to point to to say to the people “we’re better off now”.

I wish the young men and women (gay and straight) who have died for our country could have done so for something more tangible but unfortunately this has been a needless waste of young lives.

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
11:57 am

Looks like the successful trail lawyer is pending yet another Monday morning, blogging.

Gosh, you would think it was just a little twit living in his Mom’s basement, pretending to be a lawyer.

Reality

October 25th, 2010
12:01 pm

With the many posts here, interestingly enough no one has anwered the question posed at the end of the blog. Where are the tea partiers?

I also wonder why do tea party members only appear for specific issues and yet leave others, in the same vein, alone. How can they pick and chose which to support or fight for and which to leave aside?

If you believe in the Constitution and its amendments, then shouldn’t they apply to all? Why can tea party members get away with selectively enforcing these?

They sound more and more like republicans in my book….

kevinbgoode

October 25th, 2010
12:03 pm

Con-artist con-servatives. Americans living and celebrating fear on a daily basis.

And today’s boogieman is. . .

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
12:08 pm

Reality

- -I also wonder why do tea party members only appear for specific issues and yet leave others, in the same vein, alone- -

I was wondering the same thing about where the violent liberal protesters are now that were rioting about wire tapping, but now that Obama has not only extended the policy, he has enhanced it.

Or where are the anti-war protesters?

I understand that Obama has done so many more radical things to rape us of our liberties that the wire tapping seems silly now. So perhaps that’s where the liberal rioters are: They are just getting used to bending over of this administration.

paleo-neo-Carlinist

October 25th, 2010
12:12 pm

QED,

please excuse cut and paste, but it’s the only way I can respond.

Man(and women) were created to be free people, not enslaved or oppressed. This is supported by how many times people will strive for freedom in the most repressive regimes.

I applaud you for using a lower case c when spelling “created”. your logic is skewed. as devil’s advocate, I would argue that if the human experience is defined by the idea that “people will strive for freedom in the most oppressive regimes” there is as much evidence to suggest a “right repress” and as noted, excercising this right is “endowed” by th use of force (political, military, religion). not saying this is good or bad, or fair/unfair; just playing devil’s advocate.

As the Declaration of Independence says, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

so, white, property-owning (including slaves) decided, in 1776, that they could build a better mousetrap, or as I said, had the proverbial “a ha/light bulb moment” and decided to “document” this notion. the fact that they felt their individual and collective self interests (business) were being “repressed” and exploited had nothing to do with the faux altruism of their “declaration”.

We are endowed with the right to life – some on the left think this is their right to take away.
Liberty, allowed to govern oneself within a society.

according to whom? people are killed every day, and most of the time they are killed by the very same government(s), whoch draft shallow, baseless documents (political, legal, theological) to confirm rights.

Pursuit of Happiness – in some of the drafts this was the right to property, private property rights. Others did not want to limit this.

I hate to go Psych 100, but we’re each responsible for our own “happiness”. a government or ruling body is not responsible for my happiness.

From Wikipedia – I know an unreliable source.

This tripartite motto is comparable to “liberté, égalité, fraternité” (liberty, equality, fraternity) in France,[citation needed], “life, liberty and prosperity” in Austrialia,[citation needed], or “peace, order and good government” in Canada.[8] It is also similar to a line in the Canadian Charter of Rights: “life, liberty, security of the person” (this line was also in the older Canadian Bill of rights, which added “enjoyment of property” to the list).

both Canada and Australia, like the USA were once part of the British Empire. the fact that each nation’s respective “rights documents” share common language/DNA has nothing to do with the nature or existence “rights” as a matter of law.

The phrase can also be found in Chapter III, Article 13 of the 1947 Constitution of Japan, and in President Ho Chi Minh’s 1945 declaration of independence of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam. An alternative phrase “life, liberty and property”, is found in the Declaration of Colonial Rights, a resolution of the First Continental Congress. The Fifth Amendment and Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution declare that governments cannot deprive any person of “life, liberty or property” without due process of law. Also, Article 3 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights reads, “Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.”

can’t speak for Japan – but Google Nankin rape/Manchuria to see how serious the Japanese were about human rights. and we all know Ho Chi Minh cited the U.S. Declaration of Independence when he argued his case. interestingly enough it took 58,000 American lives, nearly 1 million Vietnamese lives and hundreds of billions of dollars to prove he was right (for what it’s worth, right?).

as far as “natural rights” versus “legal rights” again, my point. you can’t have both. de facto and de jure. if ‘rights’ come from a supernatural authority, then laws, which bestow, protect, add/subtract rights, are moot; they’re man-made and as I said, subject to the whims of polticians, judges, or what Ayn rand called “rational self-interest” (which means, the only thing “natural” is anarchy – kill or be killed, history is written by the victors).

Ivan

October 25th, 2010
12:13 pm

LOL @ HDB.

“No, it’s not written! But it’s there!! I can SEE it with SUPER SECRET MAGNIFYER I got from my FROSTED flakes cereal BOX!!11!!”

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
12:14 pm

kevinbgoode

- -And today’s boogieman is. . .- -

Apparently, the Tea Party members.

So who is it that is spreading fear on a daily basis? Little old ladies with walkers are now the big threat to our liberties. Beck has hundreds of thousands at the Mall and they actually clean up the mall after they are done, but the liberals show up and the mall looks like Woodstock, after the festival.

While most liberals are gullible enough to believe that senior citizens in tour buses are a threat, but young radicals, rioting, breaking windows and looting are just exercising their rights, there has got to be a liberal somewhere who didn’t buy into this nonsense. Of course they don’t seem to show up here.

‘.

Albert

October 25th, 2010
12:14 pm

Why are you firing your guns at the little bunch of “tea partiers.” The real dangers to the Constitutution comes from Democvrats and Republicans in the Congress who ignore its provisions on a daily basis, not to mention Leftist and Rightist judges who have taken the poor old thing and wrung it out to dry. The “tea party?” What party?

paleo-neo-Carlinist

October 25th, 2010
12:22 pm

QED, “worth fighting for”. there is an interesting choice of words. if a “higher authority” determines when rights are “worth” fighting/dying for, the individual has surrendered all rights and joined the herd. again, this may be as “natural” as breathing oxygen and emitting CO2, but again, if “natural rights” exist, and legal rights (laws) are unnatural. I know this puts the “Creator” (god) in play, but which god? the god who gave us the 10 Commandments and Moses? the god who gave us the Prophet Mohammed and the Q’ran?, or the God who gave us Jesus, the Gospels and the Book of Revelations?

Ivan

October 25th, 2010
12:23 pm

“I also wonder why do tea party members only appear for specific issues and yet leave others, in the same vein, alone. How can they pick and chose which to support or fight for and which to leave aside?”

Reality. Get real. You act as if every group ever formed broadened their stances to every aspect of Constitutional protections except for the Tea Party.

You must be ticked that women’s protections groups don’t show their support for taxation without representation. Or every green movement not showing their support for speedy trials or double jeopardy rights.

Gator Joe

October 25th, 2010
12:23 pm

Cynthia,
In answer to your question, judging from their rallies, the Tea Partiers care that President Obama is not white, and care about doing away with government programs…that is, government programs which they, or their families, don’t personally benefit from.

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
12:23 pm

hundreds of thousands = 87,000

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
12:24 pm

Albert

- -Why are you firing your guns at the little bunch of “tea partiers.”- -

it seems that the libs have a big job. They need to convince the country that Baby Boomers on tour buses, taking pictures with their cell phones and calling their grand kids are a real threat to our way of life.

In the meanwhile, when and where is the next riot (temper tantrum) where liberals are not getting their way. The last was the immigration rallies in the SW. violent, crime ridden and no regard for local laws.

But hey: LOOK OUT FOR THE TEA PARTY MEMBERS!!! They can leave quite a bruise if they hit you with those walkers and canes.

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
12:26 pm

granny

One estimate by a liberal mouthpiece,

You believe what you want. I’ll believe the other 15 sources that all say well over 200,000.

quod erat demonstrandum

October 25th, 2010
12:28 pm

paleo-neo-Carlinist,

Interesting reply, wrong on many counts.

Life -

The first and second article of the Virginia Declaration of Rights adopted unanimously by the Virginia Convention of Delegates on June 12, 1776 and written by George Mason, is:

That all men are by nature equally free and independent, and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.

See Griswold v. Connecticut, Justice William O. Douglas’ writings

Liberty –

John Stuart Mill, in his work, On Liberty, was the first to recognize the difference between liberty as the freedom to act and liberty as the absence of coercion.

We all have natural rights and legal rights – both – one we are born with, the others are legislated.

Finally, the PURSUIT of happiness – note it does not guarantee it. You are free to pursuit your dream, you may not make it happen, but the opportunity is there.

Your arguments regarding Japan, it was their 1947 constitution, not pre WWII and Bok Ho(for lefites – this is what they called him – “Uncle Ho” – like Roosevelt calling Stalin “Uncle Joe”) he used the declaration as his inspiration nothing said he followed it.

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
12:30 pm

Gator Joe

- -the Tea Partiers care that President Obama is not white, – -\

There it is.

The magical claim that is supposed to ignore the facts.

The party that supports closing down the programs that send Black kids to great schools is calling tea party people racist?

Why?

Why do liberals do anything? It’s what they are told to do.

willie lynch

October 25th, 2010
12:35 pm

Tea Party platform: I know you are but what am I? Once this election cycle has concluded they will fizzle out once they come to the realization that the machine is much bigger than they are. They haven’t offered a comprehensive program to deal with the nations problems and have fielded some candidates who believe it or not scare the “conservatives”.

So they claim to be a grassroots movement, well I cut my grass and keep it well managed. The Tea’ers will find themselves under the shears soon enough. Think about it once the election is over the republicans will no longer have to fear not being elected so they can go right back to their prior stance of…well they didn’t have one but they’ll be glad to have the Tea’ers right there beside them.

Sometimes being told the stove is hot is just not good enough.

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
12:35 pm

NIF

hundreds of thousands = 87,000

sorry dude, just cause they tell the turth, counted scientifically, does not make them a liberal mouthpiece.

man up

87,000

quod erat demonstrandum

October 25th, 2010
12:36 pm

paleo-neo-Carlinist,

If a unjust act is committed, it may not be illegal. This is why we have civil judgments available when criminal verdicts are suspect. As with the young Army reservist and her attacker. Michael Vick got a more severe sentence.

Is this injustice worth fighting for? Is the protection of a person worth it?

This is the liberty I have been talking about, but when that God given right to be free within a society is violated, then it should defended.

I know it is slow to sink into left leaning brains, but we should be at liberty to follow our live as long as it doesn’t interfere with others rights. Whether they are unalienable or legal rights.

Again, we have both. You have the right to life and the right to vote – one you are born with, the other is granted by a government.

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
12:39 pm

Willie Lynch

- -They haven’t offered a comprehensive program to deal with the nations problems- -

As opposed to the programs that the democrats have offered? (That was sarcasm)

Scout

October 25th, 2010
12:41 pm

Ms. Cynthia:

“Like many civil libertarians, I have been deeply disappointed in President Obama’s insistence on keeping many of the same disturbing, unconstitutional policies that President Bush employed during the so-called war on terror.”

If you really believe that, then it is an IMPEACHABLE offense as the president is to “support and defend the Constitution.”

What say ye ???

HDB

October 25th, 2010
12:42 pm

Harry Callahan

October 25th, 2010
11:30 am
Keep Up and HDB…I think you guys better view Jeremiah Wright on youtube and report back to the group here when you have a clue.

Harry….what SLANT is being exercised when mediums like YouTube, FOX…et.al….make a presentation!!?? READ the sermon….without the slanted presentation…THEN make your determination!!

The clueless take the slant and take it as truth…..the ones WITH a clue eliminate the slant and SEEK the truth……

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
12:43 pm

granny

I could send you to the sites with the comparative pictures to rallies that were well over 300,000 that weren’t as large. But hey, if you think that the networks that had to fire it’s anchor for cooking the numbers on a republican President hatchet piece, that (unfortunately) is your choice.

Your own bad choices for your information is your own problem. Just don’t ask me to drink the kool aid. After all, you probably believe they are violent and a danger to the country.

willie lynch

October 25th, 2010
12:43 pm

Nothing,

Trust me I understand. But what do the offer?

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
12:45 pm

Willie Lynch

What does anyone offer?

But a better question is: if they are so inconsequential, why the constant attacks based on lies? liberals are terrified of the tea party people. Why do you think that is?

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
12:49 pm

NIF

hundreds of thousands still equaled 87,000

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
12:50 pm

HDB

I heard Wright speak in person at Morehouse, in the MLK auditorium, a few months before he broke onto the national scene. Within 5 minutes, his speech was so racist that Black People were walking out in disgust.

Wright is no better than David Duke. I just wonder what McCain would have been regarded as if he took his children to hear David Duke every Sunday morning.

Alatsea

October 25th, 2010
12:50 pm

CT

The dimocrits ignore all of the constitution! Unless of course they can use the document to their advantage.
7 more days

Friend of a Friend

October 25th, 2010
12:51 pm

I heard that there is a run on packing containers in the DC, Maryland area.

WAR

October 25th, 2010
12:51 pm

all constitution amendments bow down to the 2nd. without the 2nd amendment, the constitution is just a piece of paper.

WAR

October 25th, 2010
12:54 pm

everyone on here knows that blacks dont just support people because they are black… right? i mean heaven forbid that we actually vote for someone based on character and qualifications when the playing field is level.

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
12:54 pm

granny

I get it. Nothing will change your mind.

But then again, you still think Obama is a good president.

It’s not like you have any credibility, anyway.

HDB

October 25th, 2010
12:55 pm

Nothing Is Free
October 25th, 2010
12:45 pm
“…..why the constant attacks based on lies?”

Question: ARE they lying??

Whenever I keep hearing “take the country back”….back to WHERE?? With the interface I had with tea partiers….there was so much hostility and racial anumus that whatever COULD have been said to make me listen was drowned out by the vitriol!! Supposedly, the members of the Tea Party are educated…but when I’m called numerous prejoratives because I don’t think as they do (”stupid n-word” is most commonly thrown at me!)…should I envision a return to Jim Crow?? Should I envision a return to the Dred Scott decision?? Should women envision a retuen to inferior status??

paleo-neo-Carlinist

October 25th, 2010
12:56 pm

QED, I am “wrong on many counts” ? I suppose I enjoy the “right to be wrong” (sounds like an old school C&W ditty, something Hank Williams or George Jones might have crooned).

you’re not listening to me (which is your right). I don’t care what John Stuart Mills, Thomas Paine, Uncle Ho, or the SCOTUS said. each of these people expressed an opinion. some had the authority of the State (SCOTUS, or on Ho’s case 1/2 “the state”) as back up, but without the power of the state, these rights are meaningless. And I find it interesting that Ho Chi Minh/Vietnam is part of this discussion. As a Communist/Socialist, how do you resolve the property rights of Marxism and the Communist Manifesto with the property rights of the U.S. Constitution? please don’t tell me the same “Creator” played both sides against the middle. are you telling me that god has a stake in the Military Industrial Complex? note I used a lower case g, but upper case M, I and C (remember Edward G. Robinson in The Ten Commandments? “where’s your Moses now?) if we are “free and independent” by nature, why do we need governments? I am sure you are familiar with the often cited words of Ben Franklin; “…those who would trade liberty for security are entitled to neither…” it is not possible to have a “free society”. it is possible to have a society based on limited, very subjective laws, but if a law is needed to protect freedom, those tasked with enforcing the laws will infringe on the “freedom” of those who break the law. I am not trying to be frivolous, but think about the concept of theft (burglary, armed robbery, white collar crimes). if we the People have the right to be”secure” and we have laws, which confirm property rights, but there are those who would take by force or fraud; and the government is powerless to protect us, what is the value of property rights? it’s a shell game. think about war, abortion, the death penalty. human/civil (natural) rights are trumped by legal rights (laws of man). this suggests to me, there are no rights.

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
12:56 pm

Have a good day, folks.

Meetings downtown this afternoon.

WAR

October 25th, 2010
12:57 pm

tea partiers will be consumed in the machine known as washington dc. you can almost see it happening now. they will be a greater force in 2012 IF the tparty abandons the notion that incumbents are band and unknown, unsophisticated candidates are good.

WAR

October 25th, 2010
12:57 pm

NIF

be careful out there.

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
12:59 pm

NIF

hundreds of thousands still equal 87,000

and as I don’t lie, credibility is not my issue but yours.

HDB

October 25th, 2010
1:00 pm

WAR

October 25th, 2010
12:54 pm
everyone on here knows that blacks dont just support people because they are black… right? i mean heaven forbid that we actually vote for someone based on character and qualifications when the playing field is level.

1) Bill Clinton received over 90% of the black vote; John Kerry received over 88% of the black vote…..neither has such an effective tan, do they??

2) When has the playing field BECOME level!!?? That has YET to occur!! If you think “character” mattered….why did a cokehead – C student become President of the US??? If “character” mattered, why are people voting for a Governor who is so ethically challenged that he resigned from Congress to AVOID prosecution???

WAR

October 25th, 2010
1:00 pm

HDB @ 12:55

wow, i wonder where we are suppose to take the country back, too. clinton years weren’t so bad. reagan years were scary for a lot of folks. once we get out of the 80s, we are dealing with entirely too much racial and social strife, so those times are not too good…

can anyone answer that question: to where are we taking the country back?

paleo-neo-Carlinist

October 25th, 2010
1:01 pm

WAR, if you inclined to believe that DC is itself an extension of whatever corporate/special interest hold the cards (Koch brothers, labor unions, Big ag, Big Pharm, big D), I would submit the Tea Party is the creation of the machine known as Washington, DC.

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
1:01 pm

HDB

i have heard the “Take our country back” phrase used during my entire lifetime for every election. So now that same phrase is racist? How big of a stretch is that?

So when were tea party people calling you or anyone else the n-word?

And please, calling someone that word is very serious so I will need real proof that it happened. Not just the testimony of politicians that will profit greatly by being called that word.

Show me proof and we can continue. Without definite proof, you are just showing that you are very gullible.

Proof is all I need and with all the cameras and cell phones at the mall capital steps that day, if it was never recorded, it never happened.

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
1:02 pm

granny

Believe what you want.

You are so lost in liberal make believe land that you are not worth the argument.

cosby

October 25th, 2010
1:03 pm

Ahh, CT, The Constitution is for American / United States citizens. Not enemy combatants that take up arms against this Country. Please note the 14th amendment and when it was passed and how it was directed towards those who took up arms against the Imperial Government. I guess we should kiss our enemy while they stab us in the back. Pitiful, just pain pitiful

willie lynch

October 25th, 2010
1:04 pm

Nothing,

It’s like those Jersey Shore people, they get attention because they’re new. No real substance just something new.

WAR

October 25th, 2010
1:04 pm

HDB

1). clinton had whites and latinos vote for him as well along with blacks.
2). john kerry lost.
3). the playing field in many regards has leveled for minorities and women.
4). bush first got elected due to hanging chads, a supreme court decision, and poorly operated al gore campaign.
5). nathan deal may win because roy barnes isnt necessarily lighting up the skies as a candidate.

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
1:06 pm

NIF

sorry still does not does not change the fact that a couple hundred thousand was only 87,000

WAR

October 25th, 2010
1:07 pm

for some odd reason i dont hear the n-word directed at me anymore. i guess the open carry laws in georgia is a real curb to ignorance.

without the 2nd amendment, the constitution is just a piece of paper.

WAR

October 25th, 2010
1:09 pm

NIF

if a tree falls in the woods, but no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

paleo-neo-Carlinist

October 25th, 2010
1:10 pm

NIF, you first sentence is spot on. the whole idea that one particular group is “endowed” with responsibility (or for the purposes of this screed, “the right”) to “take back America” is at core of the faux American political process. in the late 60’s and 70’s hippies and fought to further a “counter-culture” (take back, or at the very least, take government behind the wood shed). then in the aftermath of Watergate, we needed to take government back from Nixon et al. then Reagan begged us to take back America from the “malaise” of the Carter years… Clinton and his crowd pitched their better mousetrap, and to his credit, W didn’t promise us anything, because he made it clear, it’s not “our country”. and of course, the latest pitch was for “hope and change” but now the pendulum is swing back to the right so the Tea Party has to take America back from the liberals. welcome to the grown up table. pull my finger.

WAR

October 25th, 2010
1:12 pm

paleo

you may be right–maybe the tea party is an extension of washington. the fact remains they (tea party folk) will not sustain a formidable fight without reasonable candidates. i would/do like a third party to consider, but the miller, paul, and angle candidates are not people i would vote for.

Friend of a Friend

October 25th, 2010
1:13 pm

WAR
October 25th, 2010
1:00 pm
can anyone answer that question: to where are we taking the country back?

The answer is… drum roll…….from stupid people!

Next question.

Friend of a Friend

October 25th, 2010
1:13 pm

granny godzilla
October 25th, 2010
1:06 pm

NIF

sorry still does not does not change the fact that a couple hundred thousand was only 87,000

Sounds like left wing math.

HDB

October 25th, 2010
1:13 pm

Nothing Is Free
October 25th, 2010
1:01 pm

“So when were tea party people calling you or anyone else the n-word?”

When the Tea Party had a rally on the Georgia Capitol steps last year!! Had a sign that stated two things: 1) I support the President….2) Where were you when the nation was BUSHwhacked?? Got called every prejorative in the book! Words didn’t bother me…because I knew I was capable to having a debate without going to that level!!

From THAT experience, I ask: “take the country back to WHERE”?? Prior to the Tea Party, I didn’t view it as racist…but from MY interface with the Tea Party, I began to question their logic!! Having lived through Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, and now … Obama…..the question is: back tp where?? Jim Crow South where people like me are marginalized (Eisenhower/Kennedy)….where the options that allowed me to progress were enabled (Kennedy/Johnson)….where I began to become re-marginalized(Nixon/Ford/Reagan)…or where I fully had access to success (Carter/Clinton/Obama)..???

Clarification IS desired!!

If we were back to the Clinton years…no problem….the BEST opportunities were occurring then!

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
1:16 pm

trolls can’t be friends

not enough room under the bridges

HDB

October 25th, 2010
1:17 pm

WAR October 25th, 2010
1:04 pm
“3). the playing field in many regards has leveled for minorities and women.”

Not fully…..how many blacks are CEOs of Fortune 500 companies? How many are in middle management?? Black people…particularly MEN…are not fully viewed as contemporaries….but they ARE viewed as ADVERSARIES!!

paleo-neo-Carlinist

October 25th, 2010
1:18 pm

WAR, but maybe the Tea Party’s ability to “a sustain formidable fight” is not the impetus for its spike in media attention. and maybe Christine O’Connell is a mere “be careful what you wish for” cautionary tale. the Tea Party’s Genisis may have been sincere, but as with anything genuione, it is a matter of time before the power brokers size it up with an eye toward “how can it help us” rebranding. and being typical Americans, “principles” or ethics are the first casualty, or the first thing on the table, when an upsart movement is vying for a seat at the table.

WAR

October 25th, 2010
1:19 pm

friend of a friend

neat answer… seriously though… from whom and back to where. remember that we leave periods of time because we grow, develop, and gain. we return to times because we are unsure, timid, and faithless. just saying…

Ivan

October 25th, 2010
1:24 pm

You know what really ticks me off? The fact that liberal organizitions aren’t continuously speaking out in their support for the Third Amendment. They must want to continuously quarter soldiers in a private home during a time of peace! Don’t they care about all aspects of the Constitution?

If that sounded dumb to you, congratulations, you’re not Cynthia.

WAR

October 25th, 2010
1:24 pm

HDB

Not fully…..how many blacks are CEOs of Fortune 500 companies? How many are in middle management?? Black people…particularly MEN…are not fully viewed as contemporaries….but they ARE viewed as ADVERSARIES!!

because blacks are not fully emersed as ceos of companies or middle management does not mean the playing field is not leveled in many more regards than say 10 or 15 years ago. 90% of the burden is on the black person now, though the 10% is significant.

black men have to start regarding themselves as adversaries toward anything that reflects education, stability, and uplift. then we can sharpen the attacks on the outside forces that may the playing field unjust and inadequate. until then, we can keep pointing and blaming white folks, but its the man in the mirror who has to accept responsibility.

elgrunir

October 25th, 2010
1:24 pm

quod erat demonstrandum

October 25th, 2010
11:29 am
CT,

Where is your outrage when a union worker gets fire from a job because he is wearing a sweat shirt from CVN-77 – The George H.W. Bush?

Where is your outrage at the phony attacks on the US Chamber of Commerce?

Where is your outrage when Speaker Pelosi says you have to pass the law before you can see what’s in it?

***
1. What “phony” attacks on the U.S. Chamber of Commerce? What’s “phony” about pointing out that the sources of money funnelled through it don’t have to be disclosed, especially considering we’re talking about foreign money influencing elections?

2. You gotta be kidding. Pelosi’s comment about having to read the bill in order to see what was in it had to do with the bill (at that time) currently being in the Senate; one would have to read the revisions to see what they’d done. Got it?

WAR

October 25th, 2010
1:25 pm

HDB

i meant to say STOP.

black men have to [STOP] regarding themselves as adversaries toward anything that reflects education, stability, and uplift. then we can sharpen the attacks on the outside forces that may the playing field unjust and inadequate. until then, we can keep pointing and blaming white folks, but its the man in the mirror who has to accept responsibility.

WAR

October 25th, 2010
1:27 pm

i gotta admit. i really only care about the 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 14th amendment. really does anyone know what the 9th amendment is WITHOUT LOOKING IT UP?

c’mon… seriously, the 9th amendment without cheating… tell me what it is?

Friend of a Friend

October 25th, 2010
1:28 pm

War
I agree with you because looking back there is no place I want to return to.

WAR

October 25th, 2010
1:30 pm

ok i just looked up the 9th amendment and it isnt really something we need to know. trust me. long live the 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 14th!

Rush Limbaugh

October 25th, 2010
1:36 pm

I added up the 1st, 2nd, 5th,and 14th amendments, and then subtracted that total from 1776 and I got 911. Without these amendments, people, we’d have muslim witchcraft. That’s why I joined the Tea Party.

Shouldn’t you too?

WAR

October 25th, 2010
1:38 pm

rush @ 1:36

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

willie lynch

October 25th, 2010
1:39 pm

War,

Interesting. What program or platform would you suggest we put together? Or is there one in place already?

Billybob

October 25th, 2010
1:41 pm

The evil conservatives don’t care, AGAIN……and let me back my idea up with an opinion piece from the NY TIMES!!!!! Love it Tucker:) Liberal 101 Template….keep it coming Tucker, you smell terrific!

AmVet

October 25th, 2010
1:48 pm

From what I can see the The TPers could give a flying ____ about personal liberties and freedoms, including the most sacred one we have – habeus corpus.

Being the good Republican guppies they are, they swallowed hook, line and sinker that quasi-fascistic tripe about the war on Terror.

And they are so craven, duplicitous and capricious that they won’t even salute BHO for doing exactly what they wanted – surging into Afghanistan and keeping all of King George’s crackdowns on personal liberties, freedoms and privacy in place, untouched.

Good times out on the fringe…

HDB

October 25th, 2010
1:51 pm

WAR October 25th, 2010
1:25 pm
Understand what you mean…but that’s not the paradigm I know…and others that were raised around me know!! The preponderance of us ARE college educated…and I know that’s the way I’m raising my son!! The key thing is that many black men don’t have the EXAMPLES that I had…or that I am!! When blame needs to be assigned…I can assign it from a position of KNOWLEDGE…not of ENVY!!

willie lynch

October 25th, 2010
1:53 pm

Seriously, all of this amendment talk sort of reminds me of people who can spout scripture at the drop of a hat. Once they pick up their hat they stagger out to the next pub to see who they can impress.

You see I find it easy to not throw cigarette butts out my car window (because I don’t smoke). I don’t park in handicap spaces because “I’m only going to be a few seconds”. I flush a toilet in public because if I use it I should. When changing lanes while driving I use my indicator. When walking in public I try not to walk into people because we are sharing the walkway. When someone extends a courtesy I say Thank you.

These are some of the small things many of us might try to effect before we start talking about changing the Constitution. Learning how to be CIVILized is the first step in governing.

paleo-neo-Carlinist

October 25th, 2010
1:56 pm

AmVet, agreed, which brings me back to my original rant; if habeus corpus can be sellectively applied, or denied; what is the value of any ‘right’? to answer WAR’s “if a tree falls?” question, of course a falling tree makes noise, but if a person is imprisoned he won’t hear it (or, if the tree falls on top of a person already in the forest); who cares?

Tundra Dude

October 25th, 2010
2:00 pm

willie lynch@12:35, wrote, in part:

So they claim to be a grassroots movement, well I cut my grass and keep it well managed. The Tea’ers will find themselves under the shears soon enough.

Actually, the Tea Party was a creation of Americans for Prosperity, the third-largest recipient of Koch foundation largesse. AFP is a front group for mass-producing front groups. Sort of like McDonalds drive-thru. (would you like posters with that order?)

AmVet

October 25th, 2010
2:05 pm

BushCorp 1.0 and 2.0 are both travesties.

And since the Hero of the Texas ANG got us disgracefully added to the list of countries that torture – for the first time in our history – he should be waterboarded. And then detained indefinitely

BHO, who has ostensibly renounced tortured sanctioned from the highest levels of government, would get off with being detained in perpetuity with no charges ever presented against him, nor access to counsel…

willie lynch

October 25th, 2010
2:06 pm

Tundra,

I’m aware. Only in their minds are they the product of some groundswell.

Scout

October 25th, 2010
2:08 pm

It is 7 days, 5 hours, 52 minutes !!

AmVet

October 25th, 2010
2:18 pm

Tundra, though I have seen numerous references to Koch, but until now I did not read up on their background, the players, their positions and the influence they wield.

So they are the reason the Tea Party is derided as Astro-turfed and not a real grass roots movement? I see.

All corporate enabled and funded, of course.

All working against American working class families, against we the people’s sovereignty and for the plutocracy.

Welcome to the United States of America. A Wholly Owned Subsidiary of the New York Stock Exchange.

Mike K.

October 25th, 2010
2:51 pm

“Kidd has sued John Ashcroft, who was the attorney general at the time of his detention. Previously, courts have held that the attorney general would be immune from lawsuits. The Obama administration has supported that position. Where is the tea party?”

I’m a little tired of this game that, if the Tea Party doesn’t protest every liberty-related issue under the sun that, somehow, the movement is delegitimate. It sounds like this guy was treated very badly, and he should be able to sue the government (though I’m not sure I agree that he should be able to sue a former attorney general).

However, while I oppose these sort of unwarranted detentions, they’re a relatively minor problem in this country compared with government spending. Only a very small number of US citizens have been held in these sorts of conditions and, while the fact that it happens at all is abhorrent, the government’s economic tyranny is a far more pervasive, and dangerous, problem.

A Lumpkin Resident

October 25th, 2010
2:52 pm

Being the good Republican guppies they are, they swallowed hook, line and sinker that quasi-fascistic tripe about the war on Terror.

And they are so craven, duplicitous and capricious that they won’t even salute BHO for doing exactly what they wanted – surging into Afghanistan and keeping all of King George’s crackdowns on personal liberties, freedoms and privacy in place, untouched.

Man up, AmVet. Don’t blame something on the Tea Party, who currently HAS NO POWER, when the Democrats… WITH COMPLETE POWER… wouldn’t do jacksh** about those crackdowns. King George may have instituted them, but your precious Democratic party took possession and now owns them. The Tea party had nothing whatsoever to do with them, but it is mighty convenient to lump them with one party and lay blame… even before one of their candidates has won an election. If you want to lay blame, go look in the mirror at the person who elected the Democratic schmucks that were too busy further eroding our liberties to halt the erosion introduced from the previous administration.

Tired of the liberal crap.

October 25th, 2010
3:07 pm

General Patton said it right when he said that future wars will be fought by soliders and lost but the politicans. When did this country change from protecting our citizens and protecting all of those that wants to do harm to us. Where did our people go wrong. most liberal people had rather protect a rabbid madd dog than help the person the dog attacked.
As for the leaks of files about the deaths in Iraq. What would you say if the numbers were of our people on our soil. the world would not give a rat turn about that. Get the media out of the battles and let the men and women do the jobs we pay them for. let them do what ever it takes to win the war.If you liberals want to baby set the enemy, we will take up a collecting to buy you a ticket. one way,
The tea party was not even started when the muslum man was held, poor thing, how many lives did we save while he was locked up? Wish the goverment had done a better job on 9-10- we would not have to wory about 9-11.

AmVet

October 25th, 2010
3:11 pm

Lumpkin, nice rant.

One teensy weensy problem with your baseless assumption/assertion.

I voted AGAINST BHO exactly for the reason I stated.

I predicted he was going to be another George of the Bungle. And that the Democrats would continue demonstrating that they are so spineless and bereft of moral courage they won’t even attempt to stand up to these quasi-fascists in the right-wing.

Need evidence?

Pelosi/Reid/Clinton/Obama et all took impeachment completely off of the table in 2006.

Why? Political expediency. Nothing else.

This in spite of the fact that GWB was serially impeachable for violating US laws and the US Constitution in FIVE DIFFERENT areas.

And if you have a huge problem with that take it up with the American Bar Association. Yep, that ABA that is chock full of Republican lawyers who sent three different papers to the White House detailing their concerns with his serial disregard for US law.

The difference between us is that I realize both parties are complicit in these fear-mongered and needless destructions of American liberties and I give the complicit Democrats no quarter.

While you on the other hand, give the GOP/TPers a completely free pass for implementing and/or advocating those reprehensible policies and actions.

Again. to Ms. Tucker’s salient point.

Where is the outrage from either Republicans or TPers on this matter?

We all know. It does not exist…

Ivan

October 25th, 2010
3:28 pm

AmVet,

Don’t fall into the trap. Tucker’s point has no point. It’s like questioning why the water is still wet when we’ve had freezers for so long, and actually think you’re proving something.

Tired of the liberal crap.

October 25th, 2010
3:30 pm

I admit I don’t know how to read, but I am good at remembering and reciting U.S. history. The constitution has a lot of words, and I get confused easily. But I think if the people in washington would follow the constitution we would not have so much taxes.

willie lynch

October 25th, 2010
3:32 pm

AmVet,

Well put.

Tired of the liberal crap.

October 25th, 2010
3:33 pm

Why do all the demorats blame the tea party on everything they disagree with? The left have all of the tv media on their side, Opra, Leno, The View, all the reality shows show liberal views and knock the republicans every chance they get. Nobody ever call them on it, Youlet one republican say one line against them and it make world news. How much longer are they going to down President Bush. He was our president for 8 years, They still call Clinton President, why do President Bush not desirve the same. What do you call the demorat groups that want to stand up for their rights, (The new black panthers, NAACP, on and on and on. They never do anything wrong, They were there when we were protecting our country from the likes of the muslam that was held, why did they not burn the towns down like they did during the rodeny king times?

David Granger

October 25th, 2010
3:47 pm

You’re absolutely right, Cynthia. That damn “Patriot Act” is a damn disgrace, and anyone who voted for it should hang their heads in shame.

Both the Republicans and the Democrats want to ignore certain parts of the Constitution, and…sadly enough…we’ve had federal justices who have allowed them to do so. Conservatives and liberals are both lying hypocrites, just on opposite ends of the see-saw.

Since the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay have caused such controversy, we should have strictly followed the Geneva Convention: Because they were captured in active conflict on the battlefield while NOT wearing the uniform of a recognized nation, they should have been considered spies, stood up against a wall, and shot.

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
4:03 pm

hdb – how many black men sell drugs, fornicate wantonly and steal? It is a slow process, abetted by self-induced poverty. Obama is prime example of what a black men who values education can accomplish. Institutional racism is over, thank g-d and MLK.

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
4:05 pm

AmVet – how has the leading liberal terminated all those programs that you hate from the Bush admin – you know, the guy actually in charge?

Paddy O

October 25th, 2010
4:06 pm

AmVet – you are close, we are a wholly owned subsidiary of Goldman Sachs. Funny how much oil that company processes.

Lil' Barry Bailout

October 25th, 2010
5:33 pm

Do tea partiers care about the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth amendments?
7:22 am October 25, 2010, by ctucker
———————–

Ms. Tucker, why don’t you try to interest your Democrat party in this issue? Maybe if they take the lead, others will follow.

Lil' Barry Bailout

October 25th, 2010
6:02 pm

Yes, both Republicans and Democrats are “complicit” in passing the Patriot Act and all manner of things that happened in the aftermath of 9/11. I think we should give all the politicians a bit of the benefit of the doubt…I actually believe that the vast majority were acting in good faith to do what they felt was necessary at the time.

What I will not forgive or forget is how Democrats quickly abandoned a mostly principled course of action in favor of seeking partisan advantage. Party first, country second, maybe third.