Do tea partiers care about the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth amendments?

Like many civil libertarians, I have been deeply disappointed in President Obama’s insistence on keeping many of the same disturbing, unconstitutional policies that President Bush employed during the so-called war on terror. Those policies include detaining citizens without any charge.

You’d have thought that tea-partiers would express outrage against those policies, since they advertise themselves as restorers of the constitution and advocates of individual liberties or “freedoms.” The Fourth, Firth and Sixth amendments are clear about the rights that citizens have to be free of imprisonment by the state.

In a case about to go to the U.S. Supreme Court, the Bush administration imprisoned a man, supposedly because he was a “material witness” holding valuable information about the commission of a crime. It wasn’t true and authorities never even interrogated him about any crime. From The NYT editorial page:

It can be hard to distinguish between the Bush administration and the Obama administration when it comes to detainee policy. A case the Supreme Court agreed last week to hear, Ashcroft v. al-Kidd, is one of those occasions.
It turns on a principle held sacrosanct since the country’s early days: the government cannot arrest you without evidence that you committed a crime. An exception is the material witness law, which allows the government to keep a witness from fleeing before testifying about an alleged crime by somebody else.

These principles were horribly twisted when John Ashcroft was President George W. Bush’s attorney general. The Justice Department held a former college football player in brutal conditions on the pretext that he was a material witness in a case in which he was never called to testify and which fell apart at trial.

The Bush administration’s behavior was disturbing, and so is the Obama administration’s forceful defense of this outrageous practice of using a statute intended for one purpose for something very different. Judge Milan Smith Jr. of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals called it “repugnant to the Constitution.”

The Justice Department arrested Abdullah al-Kidd, known as Lavoni Kidd when he was a star football player at the University of Idaho, at Dulles airport in March 2003 before he boarded a plane to Saudi Arabia, where he was going to work on his doctorate in Islamic studies. For over two weeks, he was treated like an enemy of the state — shackled, held in high-security cells lit 24 hours a day, and sometimes humiliated by strip searches. When Mr. Kidd was released, he was ordered to live with his wife and in-laws, restrict his travels and report to a probation officer. The restrictions lasted 15 months.

The government said Mr. Kidd was a material witness against Sami Omar Hussayen, who was tried for supporting an Islamic group that the government said “sought to recruit others to engage in acts of violence and terrorism.” A jury acquitted Mr. Hussayen on some charges and didn’t reach a verdict on others. Mr. Kidd was not called to testify. Nor was he ever charged with a crime.

Kidd has sued John Ashcroft, who was the attorney general at the time of his detention. Previously, courts have held that the attorney general would be immune from lawsuits. The Obama administration has supported that position. Where is the tea party?

330 comments Add your comment

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
12:24 pm

Albert

- -Why are you firing your guns at the little bunch of “tea partiers.”- -

it seems that the libs have a big job. They need to convince the country that Baby Boomers on tour buses, taking pictures with their cell phones and calling their grand kids are a real threat to our way of life.

In the meanwhile, when and where is the next riot (temper tantrum) where liberals are not getting their way. The last was the immigration rallies in the SW. violent, crime ridden and no regard for local laws.

But hey: LOOK OUT FOR THE TEA PARTY MEMBERS!!! They can leave quite a bruise if they hit you with those walkers and canes.

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
12:26 pm

granny

One estimate by a liberal mouthpiece,

You believe what you want. I’ll believe the other 15 sources that all say well over 200,000.

quod erat demonstrandum

October 25th, 2010
12:28 pm

paleo-neo-Carlinist,

Interesting reply, wrong on many counts.

Life -

The first and second article of the Virginia Declaration of Rights adopted unanimously by the Virginia Convention of Delegates on June 12, 1776 and written by George Mason, is:

That all men are by nature equally free and independent, and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.

See Griswold v. Connecticut, Justice William O. Douglas’ writings

Liberty –

John Stuart Mill, in his work, On Liberty, was the first to recognize the difference between liberty as the freedom to act and liberty as the absence of coercion.

We all have natural rights and legal rights – both – one we are born with, the others are legislated.

Finally, the PURSUIT of happiness – note it does not guarantee it. You are free to pursuit your dream, you may not make it happen, but the opportunity is there.

Your arguments regarding Japan, it was their 1947 constitution, not pre WWII and Bok Ho(for lefites – this is what they called him – “Uncle Ho” – like Roosevelt calling Stalin “Uncle Joe”) he used the declaration as his inspiration nothing said he followed it.

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
12:30 pm

Gator Joe

- -the Tea Partiers care that President Obama is not white, – -\

There it is.

The magical claim that is supposed to ignore the facts.

The party that supports closing down the programs that send Black kids to great schools is calling tea party people racist?

Why?

Why do liberals do anything? It’s what they are told to do.

willie lynch

October 25th, 2010
12:35 pm

Tea Party platform: I know you are but what am I? Once this election cycle has concluded they will fizzle out once they come to the realization that the machine is much bigger than they are. They haven’t offered a comprehensive program to deal with the nations problems and have fielded some candidates who believe it or not scare the “conservatives”.

So they claim to be a grassroots movement, well I cut my grass and keep it well managed. The Tea’ers will find themselves under the shears soon enough. Think about it once the election is over the republicans will no longer have to fear not being elected so they can go right back to their prior stance of…well they didn’t have one but they’ll be glad to have the Tea’ers right there beside them.

Sometimes being told the stove is hot is just not good enough.

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
12:35 pm

NIF

hundreds of thousands = 87,000

sorry dude, just cause they tell the turth, counted scientifically, does not make them a liberal mouthpiece.

man up

87,000

quod erat demonstrandum

October 25th, 2010
12:36 pm

paleo-neo-Carlinist,

If a unjust act is committed, it may not be illegal. This is why we have civil judgments available when criminal verdicts are suspect. As with the young Army reservist and her attacker. Michael Vick got a more severe sentence.

Is this injustice worth fighting for? Is the protection of a person worth it?

This is the liberty I have been talking about, but when that God given right to be free within a society is violated, then it should defended.

I know it is slow to sink into left leaning brains, but we should be at liberty to follow our live as long as it doesn’t interfere with others rights. Whether they are unalienable or legal rights.

Again, we have both. You have the right to life and the right to vote – one you are born with, the other is granted by a government.

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
12:39 pm

Willie Lynch

- -They haven’t offered a comprehensive program to deal with the nations problems- -

As opposed to the programs that the democrats have offered? (That was sarcasm)

Scout

October 25th, 2010
12:41 pm

Ms. Cynthia:

“Like many civil libertarians, I have been deeply disappointed in President Obama’s insistence on keeping many of the same disturbing, unconstitutional policies that President Bush employed during the so-called war on terror.”

If you really believe that, then it is an IMPEACHABLE offense as the president is to “support and defend the Constitution.”

What say ye ???

HDB

October 25th, 2010
12:42 pm

Harry Callahan

October 25th, 2010
11:30 am
Keep Up and HDB…I think you guys better view Jeremiah Wright on youtube and report back to the group here when you have a clue.

Harry….what SLANT is being exercised when mediums like YouTube, FOX…et.al….make a presentation!!?? READ the sermon….without the slanted presentation…THEN make your determination!!

The clueless take the slant and take it as truth…..the ones WITH a clue eliminate the slant and SEEK the truth……

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
12:43 pm

granny

I could send you to the sites with the comparative pictures to rallies that were well over 300,000 that weren’t as large. But hey, if you think that the networks that had to fire it’s anchor for cooking the numbers on a republican President hatchet piece, that (unfortunately) is your choice.

Your own bad choices for your information is your own problem. Just don’t ask me to drink the kool aid. After all, you probably believe they are violent and a danger to the country.

willie lynch

October 25th, 2010
12:43 pm

Nothing,

Trust me I understand. But what do the offer?

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
12:45 pm

Willie Lynch

What does anyone offer?

But a better question is: if they are so inconsequential, why the constant attacks based on lies? liberals are terrified of the tea party people. Why do you think that is?

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
12:49 pm

NIF

hundreds of thousands still equaled 87,000

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
12:50 pm

HDB

I heard Wright speak in person at Morehouse, in the MLK auditorium, a few months before he broke onto the national scene. Within 5 minutes, his speech was so racist that Black People were walking out in disgust.

Wright is no better than David Duke. I just wonder what McCain would have been regarded as if he took his children to hear David Duke every Sunday morning.

Alatsea

October 25th, 2010
12:50 pm

CT

The dimocrits ignore all of the constitution! Unless of course they can use the document to their advantage.
7 more days

Friend of a Friend

October 25th, 2010
12:51 pm

I heard that there is a run on packing containers in the DC, Maryland area.

WAR

October 25th, 2010
12:51 pm

all constitution amendments bow down to the 2nd. without the 2nd amendment, the constitution is just a piece of paper.

WAR

October 25th, 2010
12:54 pm

everyone on here knows that blacks dont just support people because they are black… right? i mean heaven forbid that we actually vote for someone based on character and qualifications when the playing field is level.

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
12:54 pm

granny

I get it. Nothing will change your mind.

But then again, you still think Obama is a good president.

It’s not like you have any credibility, anyway.

HDB

October 25th, 2010
12:55 pm

Nothing Is Free
October 25th, 2010
12:45 pm
“…..why the constant attacks based on lies?”

Question: ARE they lying??

Whenever I keep hearing “take the country back”….back to WHERE?? With the interface I had with tea partiers….there was so much hostility and racial anumus that whatever COULD have been said to make me listen was drowned out by the vitriol!! Supposedly, the members of the Tea Party are educated…but when I’m called numerous prejoratives because I don’t think as they do (”stupid n-word” is most commonly thrown at me!)…should I envision a return to Jim Crow?? Should I envision a return to the Dred Scott decision?? Should women envision a retuen to inferior status??

paleo-neo-Carlinist

October 25th, 2010
12:56 pm

QED, I am “wrong on many counts” ? I suppose I enjoy the “right to be wrong” (sounds like an old school C&W ditty, something Hank Williams or George Jones might have crooned).

you’re not listening to me (which is your right). I don’t care what John Stuart Mills, Thomas Paine, Uncle Ho, or the SCOTUS said. each of these people expressed an opinion. some had the authority of the State (SCOTUS, or on Ho’s case 1/2 “the state”) as back up, but without the power of the state, these rights are meaningless. And I find it interesting that Ho Chi Minh/Vietnam is part of this discussion. As a Communist/Socialist, how do you resolve the property rights of Marxism and the Communist Manifesto with the property rights of the U.S. Constitution? please don’t tell me the same “Creator” played both sides against the middle. are you telling me that god has a stake in the Military Industrial Complex? note I used a lower case g, but upper case M, I and C (remember Edward G. Robinson in The Ten Commandments? “where’s your Moses now?) if we are “free and independent” by nature, why do we need governments? I am sure you are familiar with the often cited words of Ben Franklin; “…those who would trade liberty for security are entitled to neither…” it is not possible to have a “free society”. it is possible to have a society based on limited, very subjective laws, but if a law is needed to protect freedom, those tasked with enforcing the laws will infringe on the “freedom” of those who break the law. I am not trying to be frivolous, but think about the concept of theft (burglary, armed robbery, white collar crimes). if we the People have the right to be”secure” and we have laws, which confirm property rights, but there are those who would take by force or fraud; and the government is powerless to protect us, what is the value of property rights? it’s a shell game. think about war, abortion, the death penalty. human/civil (natural) rights are trumped by legal rights (laws of man). this suggests to me, there are no rights.

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
12:56 pm

Have a good day, folks.

Meetings downtown this afternoon.

WAR

October 25th, 2010
12:57 pm

tea partiers will be consumed in the machine known as washington dc. you can almost see it happening now. they will be a greater force in 2012 IF the tparty abandons the notion that incumbents are band and unknown, unsophisticated candidates are good.

WAR

October 25th, 2010
12:57 pm

NIF

be careful out there.

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
12:59 pm

NIF

hundreds of thousands still equal 87,000

and as I don’t lie, credibility is not my issue but yours.

HDB

October 25th, 2010
1:00 pm

WAR

October 25th, 2010
12:54 pm
everyone on here knows that blacks dont just support people because they are black… right? i mean heaven forbid that we actually vote for someone based on character and qualifications when the playing field is level.

1) Bill Clinton received over 90% of the black vote; John Kerry received over 88% of the black vote…..neither has such an effective tan, do they??

2) When has the playing field BECOME level!!?? That has YET to occur!! If you think “character” mattered….why did a cokehead – C student become President of the US??? If “character” mattered, why are people voting for a Governor who is so ethically challenged that he resigned from Congress to AVOID prosecution???

WAR

October 25th, 2010
1:00 pm

HDB @ 12:55

wow, i wonder where we are suppose to take the country back, too. clinton years weren’t so bad. reagan years were scary for a lot of folks. once we get out of the 80s, we are dealing with entirely too much racial and social strife, so those times are not too good…

can anyone answer that question: to where are we taking the country back?

paleo-neo-Carlinist

October 25th, 2010
1:01 pm

WAR, if you inclined to believe that DC is itself an extension of whatever corporate/special interest hold the cards (Koch brothers, labor unions, Big ag, Big Pharm, big D), I would submit the Tea Party is the creation of the machine known as Washington, DC.

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
1:01 pm

HDB

i have heard the “Take our country back” phrase used during my entire lifetime for every election. So now that same phrase is racist? How big of a stretch is that?

So when were tea party people calling you or anyone else the n-word?

And please, calling someone that word is very serious so I will need real proof that it happened. Not just the testimony of politicians that will profit greatly by being called that word.

Show me proof and we can continue. Without definite proof, you are just showing that you are very gullible.

Proof is all I need and with all the cameras and cell phones at the mall capital steps that day, if it was never recorded, it never happened.

Nothing Is Free

October 25th, 2010
1:02 pm

granny

Believe what you want.

You are so lost in liberal make believe land that you are not worth the argument.

cosby

October 25th, 2010
1:03 pm

Ahh, CT, The Constitution is for American / United States citizens. Not enemy combatants that take up arms against this Country. Please note the 14th amendment and when it was passed and how it was directed towards those who took up arms against the Imperial Government. I guess we should kiss our enemy while they stab us in the back. Pitiful, just pain pitiful

willie lynch

October 25th, 2010
1:04 pm

Nothing,

It’s like those Jersey Shore people, they get attention because they’re new. No real substance just something new.

WAR

October 25th, 2010
1:04 pm

HDB

1). clinton had whites and latinos vote for him as well along with blacks.
2). john kerry lost.
3). the playing field in many regards has leveled for minorities and women.
4). bush first got elected due to hanging chads, a supreme court decision, and poorly operated al gore campaign.
5). nathan deal may win because roy barnes isnt necessarily lighting up the skies as a candidate.

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
1:06 pm

NIF

sorry still does not does not change the fact that a couple hundred thousand was only 87,000

WAR

October 25th, 2010
1:07 pm

for some odd reason i dont hear the n-word directed at me anymore. i guess the open carry laws in georgia is a real curb to ignorance.

without the 2nd amendment, the constitution is just a piece of paper.

WAR

October 25th, 2010
1:09 pm

NIF

if a tree falls in the woods, but no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

paleo-neo-Carlinist

October 25th, 2010
1:10 pm

NIF, you first sentence is spot on. the whole idea that one particular group is “endowed” with responsibility (or for the purposes of this screed, “the right”) to “take back America” is at core of the faux American political process. in the late 60’s and 70’s hippies and fought to further a “counter-culture” (take back, or at the very least, take government behind the wood shed). then in the aftermath of Watergate, we needed to take government back from Nixon et al. then Reagan begged us to take back America from the “malaise” of the Carter years… Clinton and his crowd pitched their better mousetrap, and to his credit, W didn’t promise us anything, because he made it clear, it’s not “our country”. and of course, the latest pitch was for “hope and change” but now the pendulum is swing back to the right so the Tea Party has to take America back from the liberals. welcome to the grown up table. pull my finger.

WAR

October 25th, 2010
1:12 pm

paleo

you may be right–maybe the tea party is an extension of washington. the fact remains they (tea party folk) will not sustain a formidable fight without reasonable candidates. i would/do like a third party to consider, but the miller, paul, and angle candidates are not people i would vote for.

Friend of a Friend

October 25th, 2010
1:13 pm

WAR
October 25th, 2010
1:00 pm
can anyone answer that question: to where are we taking the country back?

The answer is… drum roll…….from stupid people!

Next question.

Friend of a Friend

October 25th, 2010
1:13 pm

granny godzilla
October 25th, 2010
1:06 pm

NIF

sorry still does not does not change the fact that a couple hundred thousand was only 87,000

Sounds like left wing math.

HDB

October 25th, 2010
1:13 pm

Nothing Is Free
October 25th, 2010
1:01 pm

“So when were tea party people calling you or anyone else the n-word?”

When the Tea Party had a rally on the Georgia Capitol steps last year!! Had a sign that stated two things: 1) I support the President….2) Where were you when the nation was BUSHwhacked?? Got called every prejorative in the book! Words didn’t bother me…because I knew I was capable to having a debate without going to that level!!

From THAT experience, I ask: “take the country back to WHERE”?? Prior to the Tea Party, I didn’t view it as racist…but from MY interface with the Tea Party, I began to question their logic!! Having lived through Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, and now … Obama…..the question is: back tp where?? Jim Crow South where people like me are marginalized (Eisenhower/Kennedy)….where the options that allowed me to progress were enabled (Kennedy/Johnson)….where I began to become re-marginalized(Nixon/Ford/Reagan)…or where I fully had access to success (Carter/Clinton/Obama)..???

Clarification IS desired!!

If we were back to the Clinton years…no problem….the BEST opportunities were occurring then!

granny godzilla

October 25th, 2010
1:16 pm

trolls can’t be friends

not enough room under the bridges

HDB

October 25th, 2010
1:17 pm

WAR October 25th, 2010
1:04 pm
“3). the playing field in many regards has leveled for minorities and women.”

Not fully…..how many blacks are CEOs of Fortune 500 companies? How many are in middle management?? Black people…particularly MEN…are not fully viewed as contemporaries….but they ARE viewed as ADVERSARIES!!

paleo-neo-Carlinist

October 25th, 2010
1:18 pm

WAR, but maybe the Tea Party’s ability to “a sustain formidable fight” is not the impetus for its spike in media attention. and maybe Christine O’Connell is a mere “be careful what you wish for” cautionary tale. the Tea Party’s Genisis may have been sincere, but as with anything genuione, it is a matter of time before the power brokers size it up with an eye toward “how can it help us” rebranding. and being typical Americans, “principles” or ethics are the first casualty, or the first thing on the table, when an upsart movement is vying for a seat at the table.

WAR

October 25th, 2010
1:19 pm

friend of a friend

neat answer… seriously though… from whom and back to where. remember that we leave periods of time because we grow, develop, and gain. we return to times because we are unsure, timid, and faithless. just saying…

Ivan

October 25th, 2010
1:24 pm

You know what really ticks me off? The fact that liberal organizitions aren’t continuously speaking out in their support for the Third Amendment. They must want to continuously quarter soldiers in a private home during a time of peace! Don’t they care about all aspects of the Constitution?

If that sounded dumb to you, congratulations, you’re not Cynthia.

WAR

October 25th, 2010
1:24 pm

HDB

Not fully…..how many blacks are CEOs of Fortune 500 companies? How many are in middle management?? Black people…particularly MEN…are not fully viewed as contemporaries….but they ARE viewed as ADVERSARIES!!

because blacks are not fully emersed as ceos of companies or middle management does not mean the playing field is not leveled in many more regards than say 10 or 15 years ago. 90% of the burden is on the black person now, though the 10% is significant.

black men have to start regarding themselves as adversaries toward anything that reflects education, stability, and uplift. then we can sharpen the attacks on the outside forces that may the playing field unjust and inadequate. until then, we can keep pointing and blaming white folks, but its the man in the mirror who has to accept responsibility.

elgrunir

October 25th, 2010
1:24 pm

quod erat demonstrandum

October 25th, 2010
11:29 am
CT,

Where is your outrage when a union worker gets fire from a job because he is wearing a sweat shirt from CVN-77 – The George H.W. Bush?

Where is your outrage at the phony attacks on the US Chamber of Commerce?

Where is your outrage when Speaker Pelosi says you have to pass the law before you can see what’s in it?

***
1. What “phony” attacks on the U.S. Chamber of Commerce? What’s “phony” about pointing out that the sources of money funnelled through it don’t have to be disclosed, especially considering we’re talking about foreign money influencing elections?

2. You gotta be kidding. Pelosi’s comment about having to read the bill in order to see what was in it had to do with the bill (at that time) currently being in the Senate; one would have to read the revisions to see what they’d done. Got it?

WAR

October 25th, 2010
1:25 pm

HDB

i meant to say STOP.

black men have to [STOP] regarding themselves as adversaries toward anything that reflects education, stability, and uplift. then we can sharpen the attacks on the outside forces that may the playing field unjust and inadequate. until then, we can keep pointing and blaming white folks, but its the man in the mirror who has to accept responsibility.