Public pensions: Just reward or too much?
Which side of the pension divide are you on? Why?
Many younger teachers and other public workers will not enjoy as secure a retirement as their predecessors, AJC reporter Russell Grantham writes. Many can expect pay cuts, furloughs and growing pressure to trim public employees’ pension benefits.
On the other hand, many in the private sector believe state and local employees’ pensions and pay are out of control and need to be cut — even if state and local governments have to file bankruptcy to do it, Grantham writes.
What do you think? Should federal law be changed to allow bankruptcy as an option to shed pension obligations?
- Henry Unger, The Biz Beat
For instant updates, follow me on Twitter.
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
110 comments Add your comment
Voter One
March 29th, 2011
11:23 am
Georgia you should have voted for Roy Barnes instead of Nathan Deal? Public employees how do you like the hand that Deal is giving you??? The more Georgia seems to learn, the dumber it seems to get!
clark kent
March 29th, 2011
11:25 am
realtalk, so what exactly is my share? and who exactly is “you people”?
You can’t afford to be this ignorant.
NameRequired
March 29th, 2011
11:31 am
The anger directed at public employees astounds me. The terms of public employment are to accept 11% less salary than the prevailing wage for the required level of education and experience, while doing all the things that the superior private sector employees deem to be beneath them – fight fires, catch criminals, educate children, pave roads, place your aged parents in nursing homes (while you transfer/hide the family assets so as not to pay for your aging parents’ care from your future inheritance). In exchange, the terms of employment provide the public employee with a pension. The pension is a form of deferred compensation. In true buy now, pay later tradition, the taxpayer wants to renege on the promise made now that the bill is due. The pension benefits have been EARNED (not given) and should be paid.
realtalk
March 29th, 2011
11:36 am
a good start is the marginal tax rate on income over $400k that existed in the early 1950’s, during the greatest boom in economic history: 92%! that’s where we should start! oh, and you people are the people who want to scapegoat the working class for a manufactured state budget crisis (manufactured because we are giving tax breaks to the wealthy and claiming that the money has run dry!).
so actually, we as workers can’t afford for you to get away with arguing for our demise by cutting our benefits!
clark kent
March 29th, 2011
11:42 am
Oh my mistake realtalk, I thought you didn’t want to propagate class warfare. Because, you know, that’s exactly what you’ve endorsed in 3 separate posts.
Again, who are you to determine who is rich in this country and what amount of takes they should pay?
Surely you don’t suggest redistributing the wealth from those who earned their money to those that don’t, do you?
Truthpaste
March 29th, 2011
11:44 am
“The pension benefits have been EARNED (not given) and should be paid.”
Just listen to the entitlement attitude. We are now hearing the “whine” to go along with that government cheese they have been snacking on for so many years.
Those of you that want to blame Bush, Perdue, Deal and any of the Republicans can just keep talking. You only have yourselves to blame for depending on and worshipping the socialist democrats and your precious Obama. The Democrats are the ones to blame for your bleak future – they made you promises they knew could never be kept.
Hmm...
March 29th, 2011
11:58 am
Couple other items… Adult children draw the pensions of long-dead Jawja educators. Got a friend 58 y o, she and her sis been drawing dead papa’s pension for over 20 yrs. Got Coca-cola money too so it aint about needy.
Most retired guv “workers” do not seem to be much worse for wear as they retire with big fat pensions and healthcare bennies in their early to mid 50’s; look at their faces; ever see one that looked as if they had been road hard in life, like you often see in private -sector employees the same age. Maybe it is those 5 and 6 week refreher vacations each year the teacher in the article refers to. No need to worry about losing your job, or your employer not being around and in business.
Tamika
March 29th, 2011
12:08 pm
Should I pay even more tax to fund a cushy retirement for government workers when I don’t have one at all? Help me understand the logic.
Our elected officials have made commitments to programs that we just can’t afford. How much are you prepared to tax people to fund a few?
Owkrender
March 29th, 2011
12:17 pm
Government does not manufacture anything–it’s a service. Elected officials have determined which services to provide, and the manner and means of providing them. Provision of these services requires employees, who, presumably, should not be the bottom of the barrel. To ensure this, public sector total compensation must be competitive with private sector total compensation. This is not complicated stuff.
And government should no sooner renege on pension commitments than default on municipal bonds.
Public Worker
March 29th, 2011
12:28 pm
Clark Kent- I’m also a vet who has served in combat. Far as I’m concerned you can suck it til you get lockjaw.
NY Fool
March 29th, 2011
12:28 pm
First of all, public sector employees are (in general) no longer paid less than those in private industry.
Many people in private industry were promised retirement benefits only to have them taken away. Companies like IBM laid off employees after 20-25 years just as their defined benefit plans were to increase significantly. They took away the health benefit. They sold off business units that were top-heavy with older people. Then they froze the defined benefit entirely. Why should people who lost their promised benefits have to take care of both their own retirements and those of public sector employees?
Teacher
March 29th, 2011
12:38 pm
It astounds me to read how negative and abrasive people are to public employees. I’m curious-when your house is on fire and the firemen come to put it out-are you going to call them slugs then too? Or when you sit down to a parent teacher conference with the teacher who helped your kid learn to read-are you going to call her a slug? Or when the police officer pulls over the drunk driver so he doesn’t hit your family of four on the way home from a movie-you going to call him a slug too? Why don’t we make this debate more civil and a little more grown up. At least acknowledge that these people are providing services for you.
Second, you need to remember that you are talking state employees, not federal. Federal employees make far more than public employees, but state employees do not. Make sure you keep that separation. Also, keep in mind that we pay into these pension plans and the money is then invested to earn a profit. The teacher retirement system is one of the most stable investments in the state-therefore, all the money does not come from tax payers. It’s a mix of our contributions, investment growth, and tax payers. By the way-last time I checked-we all pay taxes too.
Lastly, I’m not even going to debate how little we make, and the issues of being paid 9 months over 12 months, the hours we work chaperoning dances, coaching games, and building clubs for your kids. I will however remind you that you had the same options I did-you could have been a teacher or poice officer too. Or wait, maybe those jobs are beneath you.
Steve
March 29th, 2011
12:43 pm
I went to public schools. All 12 years. Most of my teachers were time-serving morons; when I graduated with honors, I was still completely unprepared for college-level work, and all I had to do to find out what was wrong with the schools was to date a couple of education major airheads. So thanks for nothing, teach, which is exactly what I owe you and the rest of your tenured, unionized, bottom-of-the-barrel pals.
khc
March 29th, 2011
12:46 pm
talk about whining…..private sector folks like truthpaste suffer from pension envy, which we all know is in jeopardy because of W falling asleep at the wheel….deal so far is better than expected….sonny hired 2 bankers and all they tried to do was gum up the system while working on their second incomes and land deals
Nancy
March 29th, 2011
12:56 pm
First, let me say that I am a private sector employee with a master’s degree. The point that Miller and others seem to miss in the above article is that the uneducated did not opt for delayed gratification and finish school. Secondly, they are missing the point made in the article and elsewhere, is that public employees are forced to contribute to their retirement plan from the day they start working. And most importantly, the taxpayers are paying the retirement plans of the employees of bankrupt companies such as DELTA through the TAXPAYER FUNDED RETIREMENT INSURANCE.
Many of the largest companies in the country have underfunded pension plans which they will hand over to the taxpayer when it becomes convenient and corporations also raid what is in the pension plan if the CEO decides he wants to buy another corporation. Is your 401(k) truly safe? Not only is it exposed to the ups and downs and downs of the market, but it is not unheard of for companies to stop making the deposits of employee funds and start using that cash if money gets tight.
khc
March 29th, 2011
12:59 pm
good point nancy…and for the record the pensions systems for the state of georgia were either 100% funded or darn close under last democratic governor….and state’s bonds were triple a
Too much truth
March 29th, 2011
1:00 pm
If private sector workers would spend their time and energy promoting reforms to our disasterous trade, immigration and tax policies, instead of attacking public workers, then maybe we could restore the middle class and retirement security for all. Instead, you’re letting yourself be dupped by corporate interests and Wall Street who divert your attention away from who is really screwing you.
There was a Wall Street banker, a private employee and a public sector at a table with a dozen cookies on it. The banker reaches out and takes eleven of the cookies and whispers to the private sector worker, watch out for that teacher, she wants your cookie.
They’ve got you acting like crabs in a pot.
parrota1a
March 29th, 2011
1:11 pm
Well to all those that are in the private sector and think government workers shouldn’t get a pension or benefits let’s all see how good their jobs look with the same thing cut? I mean no 401k no healthcare mabe we need to put a tax on all money contributed to a 401k every year instead of 59.5? Will that make everyone in the private sector happy? No they will be whinning just like they are now. I know lets give the teachers and government workers raises to compensate for the benefit loses to match the private sector increases in pay and give them the option for 401k with matching, Healthcare and public utlity stock options. Sounds fair I mean lets make it fair straight across the board. Now I know the private sector people are going to say how easy a teaching degree is but how many of them have to actual teach their kids. Or lets say sanition workers how many private sector job holders here want to pick up garbage or say clean out the sewage system i know work in the land fill for less pay. Boy I bet you private sector people are just holding your breath waiting on those jobs RIGHT! So why don’t you do US all a favor and quit complaining about how EASY a government job is and how we shouldn’t pay for this becasuse in the end everyone is going to pay for it.
Retired State Employee
March 29th, 2011
1:11 pm
Go ahead and get rid of my retirement benefits – then I will have to go a welfare and Medicaid. So where will you be saving money? Additionally, I still pay incomes taxes from my retirement at a rate higher than most who are still work are paying. I paid into the State Employees’ Retirement System for more than 30 years, I set up my own 401K and when I was still working my incomes tax bracket was 28%. No, I didn’t make a big salary, just didn’t have dependents and tax write offs.
Truthpaste
March 29th, 2011
1:29 pm
“private sector folks like truthpaste suffer from pension envy”
Nope!
At 49, everything for the future is taken care of. No need for entitlements, not even medicare or social security when I want to retire. Many of us never belived the false promises, public or private, and knew how to take care of ourselves.
What is pension envy? It’s not like your going to get one or even had one to begin with! You can’t be jealous over something that never really existed.
Temper Tantrums of the Government Employee
March 29th, 2011
1:31 pm
THE BIG BABY CRIES …. Go ahead and get rid of my retirement benefits – then I will have to go a welfare and Medicaid. So where will you be saving money? Additionally, I still pay incomes taxes from my retirement at a rate higher than most who are still work are paying. I paid into the State Employees’ Retirement System for more than 30 years, I set up my own 401K and when I was still working my incomes tax bracket was 28%. No, I didn’t make a big salary, just didn’t have dependents and tax write offs.
Gator Nation
March 29th, 2011
1:32 pm
#1 – When I agreed to become an educator in Georgia my contract/agreement included teacher retirement benefits. This was and is part of the total compensation package for being a teacher. Just like salary, 401k contributions and health care are part of the total compensation package for private employees. As a teacher, one signs up for a fairly low paying career but part of your reward for this is a solid retirement. This was not a secret, just sprung on anyone. This has been the deal for a very long time. This plan was set up by the state legislature, years ago, who fully knew what their part of the agreement would be. There are no surprises in this plan
#2 – Teachers in Georgia contribute part of their salary every month to the teacher retirement system. We are not like teachers from other states who do not make ANY contributions to their own retirement. We also contribute to our health care plans.
#3 – Allowing states or local systems to bankrupt to get out of paying for the long agreed teacher retirement of its educators would be like me being able to declare bankruptcy, be cleared of all my debts and keep all of my assets (house, car, checking and savings account, etc…..) without penalty. This would be wrong and it would go against the moral fabric of what a contract stands for.
JDK
March 29th, 2011
1:33 pm
“Or lets say sanition workers how many private sector job holders here want to pick up garbage or say clean out the sewage system i know work in the land fill for less pay.”
Here in Gwinnett, our garbage is picked up by the private contractors.
Gator Nation
March 29th, 2011
1:37 pm
P.S.or #4 – Teachers in Georgia are not unionized.
AngryRedMarsWoman
March 29th, 2011
1:41 pm
“Stop being so greedy, we are tired of it!”
Really? You are tired of it? Do you think I work all of these hours b ecause it is fun? No, it is because I am greedy and want to make more money. I am one of the hated “top 3%” people and I didn’t get here without some greedy motivation. Most folks would not have spent as much time in school or chained to a desk and cell phone without greed as a motivator. If I stop being greedy as you have requested then I will stop working so hard and stop making so much money and paying all these taxes – kinda shooting yourself in the foot, aren’t you? You should be egging me on and telling me to be greedier so I can make more money and pay more taxes – if you raise the rates too high you might just de-motivate me, but if you encourage me to be greedier I will pay more anyway. okthanxbye
parrota1a
March 29th, 2011
1:50 pm
Making a generalized comment on sanitaion workers and government employees this includes state employees for everyone here who is litteral. Why don’t we make all the public schools and government run services private and pass it along to tax payers. With no reguard for the increase in property, sales taxes etc….. because all the private sector people will pay for this extra increase RIGHT? Beacause all this boils down to is money well if its money your worried about why don’t you pay more for the same service that is subsidized by the government and now goes private what are you going to do? I mean teachers and other gov. employess pay into their retirement, pay taxes why can’t we have benefits?
khc
March 29th, 2011
1:52 pm
truthpaste, most public sector employees contribute to their pension plan similar to you saving thru 401k or if you are lucky to have employer who matches….in case of ga employees they were paid about 11% less in the past now closer to 7%….most of these folks probably could not salt away as much as apparently you have….if you and others in same category want to be real heroes tell uncle sam you renounce any medicare or ss
Steve
March 29th, 2011
1:56 pm
I would renounce SocSec in a heartbeat. Right now, today. You can even keep everything I’ve paid into it over 30 years (you might as well, since the government has already spent every dime). Let me out of paying any more, and I’m off the books right this second. I’ll take that deal in a heartbeat, since thanks to all the worthless baby boomers who didn’t save anything, I’m not going to see a penny out of it anyway.
H.Unger?
March 29th, 2011
1:59 pm
Mr. Unger, Is this the kind of feedback you were hoping for? Do you even read these comments?
Comments to AJC blogs seem to be the new Vent.
Mishap
March 29th, 2011
2:06 pm
Steve,
Aren’t you a boomer if you’ve been paying in ~30 years? It’s those of us that have ~40yrs left till we’d qualify for SS that won’t see a dime. Technically, it’s not boomers that bankrupted SS. It’s their parents (WWII era) people that lived far longer than expected and saved nothing for retirement. They also voted in the people that made those huge increases in payments in the ’60’s and ’70’s before most boomers were working or voting.
Also, boomers can’t really help if they were all born in a similar time period. They can help what they saved for retirement but it’s not like they held a gun to Nixon’s head and sign in the amendments.
Steve
March 29th, 2011
2:13 pm
I plead guilty to inadequate math; I’m 42, and I’ve been paying in since I was 15. That’s 27 years.
JB
March 29th, 2011
2:18 pm
“#4 – Teachers in Georgia are not unionized.”
That’s going to come as a great surprise to these folks: http://gae2.org/
Nice try… liar.
Gator Nation
March 29th, 2011
2:32 pm
JB-
#1 – GAE is organization, not a union. There is a HUGE difference.
#2 – Belonging to GAE is voluntary. Most teachers do not belong to GAE. There is actually another teacher organization in Georgia as well. Most teachers do not belong to that one either.
#3 – GAE does not negiotiate any contracts for teachers. None. Zero.
Do your homework before prior to making accusations or a fool of yourself.
easy monety
March 29th, 2011
2:47 pm
steal tax money from workers in the private sector to fund obscene, guaranteed pensions for workers in government? No—that will no longer work. The model has failed—government “workers” should face the same retirement plan risks as everyone else. There’s no magic return fairy in government that can guarantee market returns.
JB
March 29th, 2011
2:49 pm
Riiiight. The GAE is not a union. Try and tell that one to a legislator, or better yet, a school superintendent, and get back to me when he stops laughing.
JB
March 29th, 2011
2:52 pm
Goll-ee, lookie here. It’s the application to sign up for the GAE “organization,” and my oh my, it includes membership in the NEA, which is not only a union, it’s one of the biggest ones in the country:
http://www.gcae.net/Resources/Documents/GAE_2010.11_app_1_.doc
Like Urban Meyer, you’re a liar…
Truthpaste
March 29th, 2011
2:54 pm
“if you and others in same category want to be real heroes tell uncle sam you renounce any medicare or ss”
Oh, but I have renounced medicare and SS. However, your demented old uncle seems to want to continue to take it out of my paycheck and reward the entitlement class like you with it! khc, keep your hands off my money and tell that pervert of an uncle of yours to do the same!
Chet
March 29th, 2011
3:07 pm
It is about choices, with my Veterans status I could get a “State” job for half the pay, half the work, and half the hours, half the headache, half the stress, half the deadlines, and so on. On the other hand I could have and did, choose a private sector job, which is twice of all the halves that I stated. I choose the private job, I choose to work 80 hours a week. I choose to work nights and weekends. I choose to take on all the stress. I choose to excel in my job. I choose to finish deadlines early. I choose to work holidays when everyone else has a 4 day weekend. I choose to make the extra money. I choose to put away for retirement. I will make my choices. I will not complain about the choices I make.
I’m not saying that Government employees are lazy, just that in the private sector you have the choice to work hard and be rewarded for it, or you have the choice to look for a new job every couple years. A government employee can choose to work hard, and see everyone else getting the same pay raises as them. What would anyone do at that point? The government rewards for nothing other than showing up. So show up and cash your pay check. Oh, and do the rest of the country a favor, put some in the savings account…
State Employees-who needs them
March 29th, 2011
3:12 pm
Let’s get rid of them all:The police who protect us,the teachers who teach our children,the fireman who puts out our house fires,the judges in our court system, the prison guards who watch the inmates,the court employees who run our court systems,the DOT employees who work our road system, the probation officers who keeps up with released inmates on our streets,the health department employee who takes care of elderly and children,the family and service employee who makes sure children are not abused,the administrative employee who pays the bills and stays in budget,the forest employee who puts out the forest fires,the agriculture employee who makes sure our food is safe to eat.Let’s take every thing they do for us and toss it to the side. Be careful for what you wish for or want in our government.Ten to twenty years from now no one will take these jobs.Our society and State will be the envy of everyone.
Mishap
March 29th, 2011
3:22 pm
JB,
As much as I’m not a fan of unions in general, I don’t think GAE qualifies as a union given it doesn’t have collective bargaining power here. It can advocate for teachers all it wants and hire lobbyists, etc but it can’t actually go to the table and represent teachers. There’s nothing wrong w/ advocacy…GA Power buys gifts and meals for legislators all the time so we can get those sweet nuke plants we’ve already started paying for. Publix has been funding the Sunday alcohol sales drive out of the kindness of their heart as well. Self-interest drives our private industry…why shouldn’t workers be allowed their own voluntary advocacy?
Having political sway and collective bargaining are different things. NAE does represent teachers in other states but it can’t here so technically it’s not a union. I’m sure if they tried to organize a strike or negotiate for all teachers, they’d get thrown out w/ the quickness.
Gator Nation
March 29th, 2011
3:41 pm
JB-
Unions are mandatory along with their mandatory dues.
Unions represent their constituents a the bargaining table
Unions control what their members can or cannot do on the job
GAE does not do any of these things.
Its DA’s like yourself who THINK they know what they are talking about that make education so difficult. You must have been a nightmare in the classroom with you know-it-all attitude and F in the gradebook.
Tanya
March 29th, 2011
3:53 pm
Government workers are retiring way too early and I feel no matter how hard you think you worked or the low pay the retirement benefits are just too mucd can’t be afforded any longer. The benefits must be looked at. You may have gotten paid less but you had other benefits like all the days off you had. The rich who are making much more money then the rest of us should be paying more in taxes since they have more. I won’t even go into the cost of illegal immigrants and what they cost us in courts, medical and toher expenses. The illegal immigration problem is being looked at and needed to be a long time ago. Next thing to change is the welfare system. Ask single mothers who work and you’ll get the best ways to change the system.
North over South
March 29th, 2011
5:05 pm
First Government employees’ pension benefits next it will be private sector at the end no one will have a retirement systems just watch and see
Mishap
March 29th, 2011
5:09 pm
North over South,
I think private sector jobs lost pensions long ago when companies discovered they could switch everyone younger over to 401k’s or file bankruptcy to dump their liabilities onto the gov’t. The few and far between companies that have pensions usually involve unions at this point (think airline pilots).
Retired State Employee
March 29th, 2011
5:37 pm
All you young folks involved in whatever you’re involved in just can’t make a point w/o insulting others. If you’re young, fund your own retirement and don’t talk about boomers not saving. Some of us boomers have saved beyond your wildest dream and we EARNED our retirement pension. Did you have to be on call and alert 24/7? I did, and I paid my dues – so YES I am a BIG CRY BABY – but you CHILDREN can kiss off. I funded my own 401 K w/o any match from the State. Unfortunately, I wasn’t offered this option until very late in my career – with NO match. SO all you whining private sector breast feeders – kiss my butt. Unless you have served in the US MILITATRY you do NOT need to comment here.
Whine & Cheese Pity Party
March 29th, 2011
6:21 pm
“All you young folks involved in whatever you’re involved in just can’t make a point w/o insulting others. If you’re young, fund your own retirement and don’t talk about boomers not saving. Some of us boomers have saved beyond your wildest dream and we EARNED our retirement pension. Did you have to be on call and alert 24/7? I did, and I paid my dues – so YES I am a BIG CRY BABY – but you CHILDREN can kiss off. I funded my own 401 K w/o any match from the State. Unfortunately, I wasn’t offered this option until very late in my career – with NO match. SO all you whining private sector breast feeders – kiss my butt. Unless you have served in the US MILITATRY you do NOT need to comment here.”
^^ And here it is folks, this is the reason why no one has any respect left for the pension entitled, whiney baby boomers. They suffered ooooo soooo much and now us youngin’s gonna pay the price for theire mistake and their tortured lives. Retired State Employee will not be around much longer
JB
March 29th, 2011
6:37 pm
Lizard, I’ll put my masters in Engineering up against every BA or fake grad degree in education ever printed. Like most educrats, you’re still in school because you couldn’t handle the real world. Given GA’s terrible school rankings, you aren’t even good at an intellectually undemanding job. Maybe you should try Walmart greeter instead.
broken down
March 29th, 2011
7:53 pm
the guaranteed pension model is long broken and will have to be scrapped by governments, which can’t even afford to pay what they have now. People are going to have to assume the risk for their own retirements and not be getting freebies from government agencies.
TnGelding
March 30th, 2011
2:04 am
Negative on the bankruptcy. Things aren’t that bad. A recovering and growing economy will solve many of the ills.
I think the younger workers will have a secure retirement, but not a lavish one like current retirees enjoy.
Brin
March 30th, 2011
5:44 am
Look the hard cold facts are there neither is or will be enough money to continue paying pensions to government workers. The pensions were inflated way beyond reason by politicians for their own benefit and to get votes. Imagine where the money will come from to pay folks to retire when they are only 50 yrs. old and then keep paying them at 90% of their last inflated salary for the next 30 yrs. or more.. There is just not enough money nor will there be. If the state has to declare bankruptcy to cancel the pensions then it should do so. Government workers should agree to accept a buyout and put it in a 401 K and manage it and take the same risk everyone else must take.