Thumbs up or down on new sports complex in Lilburn?
Sports used to be thought of as recession-proof.
Sports used to be thought of as an easy and glamorous way to make money.
But the last few years have proven both concepts wrong, assuming they were ever on the mark.
Now, Lilburn officials are considering a big baseball, softball and soccer venue — a nearly $20 million venture — they hope will transform their sleepy enclave of 11,500, reports AJC staffer Shane Blatt.
The City Council is entertaining a license fee agreement with Big League Dreams Sports Parks, a national operator of youth and adult sports facilities, for a 40-acre complex at U.S. 29 and Indian Trail Road, Blatt writes.
The facility, which could involve public financing and a tax increase, would play host to Little League baseball and adult softball tournaments, camps, concerts and even weddings.
Kennesaw State University sports economist J.C. Bradbury told Blatt there is no evidence that publicly funded facilities generate any kind of economic windfall.
“The economic development that we so often hear about never materializes. If you don’t believe me, just go down to Turner Field,” Bradbury said.
What do you think? Is it worth the risk? Why or why not?
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44 comments Add your comment
Dennis Murray
September 2nd, 2010
6:57 am
It depends. The impact from a park like that comes from pilling teams from outside the immeiate area for tournaments and preferrably from a broader region to fill hotel rooms.
Youth sports are still going strong – I work with several organizations and parents are still well engaged.
Question is – are there clubs their who can step in and play host, or proven commercial promoters that they can partner with?
Buzz G
September 2nd, 2010
8:01 am
If it really could make money, some enterprising capitalist would have done it already. It is more government spending by a government which already can’t seem to get its spending under control. Remember, Lilburn has (had?) two red light cameras which made bundles of money from non-residents of Lilburn. How about a tax break for the people? What happens to people’s common sense when they get elected to government office? They seem to get power hungry and want to take over the world.
nativeson71
September 2nd, 2010
8:01 am
I grew up in the Stone Mountain / Lilburn community…graduated from Parkview High School…it’s an upper-middle class community (for the most part). I’m not a community planner but this seems like an odd idea.
The Olympic tennis venue in Stone Mountain, less than 5 miles away, sits unused…so I don’t get the logic of a 20million sports complex. I would invest in commerical realestate…create a more inviting town center than what is there now…the Smyrna Village Green or the Square on Marietta might be good models to study?
The Economy
September 2nd, 2010
8:03 am
Just what the world needs, another sports complex. We certainly do turn out a lot of super star athletes here in America, not to many scholars though. See front page of AJC today, T.I. and his wife got arrested for pot in L.A., we should give them a TV show. Thats right, they already have won, lets do something nicer. America, you have lots it, you better get it back real soon.
Fred
September 2nd, 2010
8:09 am
I have looked at the Big League Dreams website and think this can work. The comparison being made to Turner Field is not a good one. You are looking at a professional sports facility designed to make money for the team. It is only used about 90 times a year and has lots of overhead and dead space for parking. The park proposed in Lilburn is geared to local sports, will be open 52 weeks a year and won’t require the massive parking lots of Turner or even the Gwinnett Stadium. Since it is geared to more participative sports instead of just viewing, it will draw a more consistent audience. The demand is there, just check out the Gwinnett parks in the area. They are packed with youth sports with only a few fields set aside for adult sports.
Alecia
September 2nd, 2010
8:10 am
If the people of Lilburn are not already tapped out enough in this economy. They need to work on taking care of what’s already on their plate (i.e. education, crime, trans.) instead of laying out tax dollars for something that has a small chance of working. I wonder if someone in local government has their hands in the pie on this one. Guess if you own a big construction or materials company and you are in on the contracts then it is a great idea.
Road Scholar
September 2nd, 2010
8:44 am
What does their business plan show? Is there one, or is this being proposed out of the blue? If they don’t have an accurate and thorough business plan, it will not be successful.
That Guy
September 2nd, 2010
8:45 am
Have you people ever heard of the East Cobb Baseball Complex. They have a monopoly on ‘big time’ youth baseball in north metro Atlanta. ECB has let field maintenance erode to the point that an overhaul of the turf is needed to rejuvenate the entire complex (except for the upper field) The complex would be a nice addition, but there is no guarantee that it would generate the amount of revenue that is being proposed in the article. Do your homework Lilburn residents, before jumping in head first.
ATLien
September 2nd, 2010
8:47 am
Could it work? Maybe but Lilburn is on life support now. By the time this rolls out, I think it would be to late. Look at Stone Mtn Freeway from the park to Snellville – it’s a ghost town. It’s why my family is getting out and moving Oct 1.
Also, Lilburn is not upper middle class, it’s barely middle class. So, punish the middle class with more taxes? No way.
Ben
September 2nd, 2010
8:55 am
As someone familiar with Lilburn and a parent of kids involved in sports activities I think this is not what the area needs. First, it doesn’t take into account the numerous outstanding county parks in the area. Within approximately 5 minutes in each direction you will find either Bethesda, Lilburn Lyons Club, and Mountain Park parks as well as GSA, and the indoor soccer complex. We even have the South Gwinnett Athletic Association that hosts many of the tournaments that bring in out of the area sports teams. These tournaments might be on a smaller scale but they aren’t exactly revitalizing the area with restaraunt business or hotel occupancy. The effect of adding an additional complex on top of these county parks would not be worth the cost for anyone involved.
In my opinion, the city of Lilburn has other areas of concern that they should address first. Highway 29 is currently under renovation and there is supposed to be a revitalization underway to make for a more scenic streetscape. Let’s hope that it improves the traffic flow as it is terrible to drive at all times of the day. There has also been a group formed to revitalize the shopping centers. However, the city is still not attractive when you drive through it. Bringing in business needs to be a major focus. The city also needs to stop enacting laws that punish the few businesses that it does have. Let’s not put the cart before the horse.
Softball Guy
September 2nd, 2010
9:07 am
If the park goes hard after Adult Softball Tournaments…..It will be able to make plenty of money! Last year the USSSA E Coast World Series held in Florida had 256 teams that paid over $300 per team to play. Think of the massive amount of hotel, food & entertainment that comes with 256 teams and their famlies for a Friday to Sunday Tournament. Not to mention the consistent in state teams that would bring revenue to the city!
Great idea……I really think this could jump start the city!
shadow7071
September 2nd, 2010
9:24 am
Sports puts a lot of money into the hands of a few. In this economic climate communities need to focus their efforts and any available resources into ventures that put money into the hands of many.
RealDawg
September 2nd, 2010
9:26 am
You can’t look at items like this in a vaccum. They must be tied into the reality of the entire economic and geographic landscape. Is there a need for more recreation parks in Gwinnett? Gwinnett already has one of the best recreation park systems in the country. Do the existing business and population demographics support such a venture? Lilburn has an aging demographic that has also continued to move backwards in household income. There are few hotels nearby and other areas that would benefit (shopping, leisure,etc) are outside the bounds of Lilburn’s tax area.
The reality is that there is no true economic model that could be trusted to justify the expense. There are plenty of models but all have numerous inputs that are often just simply guesses. In the end, this is just a gamble.
Gwinnett has entirely too many cities in the first place. The County already operates as one big city with a bunch of little cities inside. Each one struggling for identity. Lilburn is near the bottom only because growth hit here first. Most people in this county have never even been to downtown Lilburn. Tax revenues are only going to continue to go backwards in the coming years. Sadly, this venture would not be a success for Lilburn. Other places maybe, but not here.
Really Dumb Idea
September 2nd, 2010
9:34 am
This fits into the same Really Dumb Ideas category as the indoor ski resort in Dawsonville, the condo towers by Lake Lanier, and the giant water park in Lithonia.
The council demonstrates their stupidity and lack of judgement by making a public announcement of this profoundly dumb notion. Fortunately, the idea is too stupid to ever happen.
Ripoff
September 2nd, 2010
10:09 am
Another boondoggle waste of taxpayer money—all these millions will go to some developer friends of the county commission and city, and end up being a big waste of money. This project will be out of business in 5 years.
Ray
September 2nd, 2010
10:24 am
let them build as long as NO public money,we own enought already
then when it closes in 3 to 5 years the taxpayers will not still be paying
H
September 2nd, 2010
10:34 am
No – Lilburn is not the place. From what I understand, there is an expanding baseball complex in Hoschton called Signature Park that is on the path to bring tournaments to Gwinnett like what East Cobb has. Any facility of this magnitude at this point is just a dream though.
The economy has to turn around before things like this can be considered. Families are still spending money dreaming that have the next baseball phenom in the family, when in reality it takes alot of money and time with little chance even to play in HS. It will takes many years before the masses start throwing out money like they have in the past. Parents and their wallets are having a reality check!
The Dogfighter Returns
September 2nd, 2010
12:40 pm
As usual what we have here is a group of businessmen trying to pull a fast one by the masses with the help of government. If this was truly a great idea do you think big dream would cut a deal with the city of lilburn?
The joke is on the residents of lilburn. These politicians can barely read and write, who grows up dreaming to be in local city government?
Why so SERIOUS??
September 2nd, 2010
1:34 pm
GIVE BLD A CHANCE…
Tony Buckhead
September 2nd, 2010
2:42 pm
Where’s Lilburn ; )
Tim Shaw
September 2nd, 2010
5:25 pm
This is going to work – it’s a fantastic idea. I did alittle homework and here’s what I found: #1. BLD has 10 of these parks that they built over the last 13 years (and 2 under construction) – all are working. There is one in TX in a town smaller than Lilburn with a lot less built 2 years ago- 2 years later there are 7 hotels, restaurants and shops; #2. BLD will schedule all 52 weeks over a year in advance, so by the time the complex opens, the next 52 weeks are booked; #3. Every weekend, BLD will bring over 2000 people into Lilburn with 600 staying at least 1 nite maybe 2 (600!); #4. as soon as the project is approved, hotels, restaurants and shops will start coming to Lilburn; #5 Lilburn puts down a deposit and has 12 months to decided to proceed or not – if not, they get all their deposit back – now this is good leadership – in this down economy and a struggling corridor with Hwy 29, this is a perfect storm for economic development and I commend the leadership of Lilburn.
No deal
September 2nd, 2010
5:49 pm
If it was that good of a deal, taxpayer money would not be needed. Just buy the land and build the complex, like most businesses do. Taxpayer money doesn’t need to be wasted.
Thor Johnson
September 2nd, 2010
5:52 pm
What I’m reading is we can’t…more government bad ideas etc etc. Is anyone aware of what Big League Dreams Sports Parks are? Do you know the facilities do not depend exclusively on the “local” population they typically attract from a 30 plus mile radius and most are filled with regional tournaments several times during the year. And for those of us who have questions about “governments” abilities, Big League Dreams manages and markets. Do you know they have 10 and are currently planning and or building 3 more. Do you know that they have been doing this for 13 years. None have failed and ALL are profitable. One community in Texas has grown from one hotel to 7 and obviously with the ancillary businesses to support the traffic… And to comment regarding an enterprising capitalist… that what Big League Dreams is “enterprising capitalists”… I would urge all to do your homework… You are convinced you’re pretty wise or at least your comments are attempting to persuade all of you are. Take twice the amount of time it took you to comment and do some research…
Joe Eamon
September 2nd, 2010
6:00 pm
What a brilliant idea. Kudos to the City of Lilburn to going after positive economic development. Anyone involved in youth sports knows this will be a Homerun.
Lee
September 2nd, 2010
6:16 pm
I live right at that interesection. We have horrible traffic, one-third of the homes in my neighborhood have been foreclosed on in the last 3 years, and I don’t want to pay for your sports complex. My neighbors are trying to leave and I will too. Some people have delusions of grandeur!
Lilburn Leadership
September 2nd, 2010
7:03 pm
What a breath of fresh air. Finally, our politicians are taking positive action. This year Lilburn has some politicians that have 1) NOT raised our property taxes and 2) Understand that to keep those residential tax rates low they must increase economic activity within the city. None of us currently knows whether this idea is the solution. That’s why a feasibility study is being proposed. At the moment the city is simply talking to experienced and profitable professionals about an agreement that may result in a new sports facility or in a full refund of the advance money if the concept is impractical. Why would anyone have problem with this kind of risk free investigation? I suggest we all save our criticism until the study reveals some real facts. If the risk / reward balance is negative, I will be the first in line to kill the idea. Until that happens, I suggest we encourage the few real leaders we have in politics to explore new solutions to our declining tax base. Otherwise, we can count on higher millage rates and declining services. I’d much rather grow our way out of this recession than tax our way through it.
Linda Newton
September 2nd, 2010
7:30 pm
I saw the presentation this morning and read the AJC article. Frankly I think the Big League Dreams Sports Park could help not only Lilburn (which would be enough for me) but also south Gwinnett and the Atlanta metro-area. City Leaders are doing their due diligence and I for one look forward to hearing more and encouraging others to understand the facts.
Stephen Smith
September 2nd, 2010
10:48 pm
Looks like Thor, Joe, Linda, and Lilburn Leadership have been rallied by the bureaucratic in-group behind this loony project to spin and deflect negative criticism here on the AJC. This project strikes me as a nearly desperate move by a local government faced with bleak economic prospects in the current climate, and an even bleaker future — like much of America — given the twin death grip of a rapidly aging tax base (with a mountainous entitlement liability) and exponentially growing debt. Why not make better use of local government efforts by working full-time to import young immigrants and export old baby boomers to cheap third world countries, where with luck they may not live their golden years in desperate poverty, as many of them will if they continue to live stateside. Probably the nation’s only hope, but not a pretty picture.
H
September 3rd, 2010
7:31 am
Tim, Thor, Joe, Linda & Lilburn Leadership are quite possibly the same poster. Pipe dreams!
Waste of money
September 3rd, 2010
9:20 am
this is a total waste—-the economy’s in a depression and these crooks are looking for a taxpayer handout to build some park that is not needed. Use your own money and quit begging taxpayers for your investment capital.
Unsinkable Molly
September 3rd, 2010
9:48 am
Isn’t it refreshing that the Lilburn community is not sitting around complaining how bad everything is? This is the kind of spirit that has made America great. Lilburn is taking control of their destiny. Way to go Lilburn!
Bruce Arnett, JR
September 3rd, 2010
9:51 am
I was at the presentation and invite all who have a negative opinion to understand the details before jumping to a conclusion. The success of this program in the communities they developed in is impressive. I for one am very excited to see our local government working so hard to improve the area and the economic future of Lilburn and the surrounding areas. I have not been involved in local issues until recently. The drive to improve the future of this community has driven me to be more involved and aware of what is taking place. I have committed additional tax dollars from my own businesses to improve the area through the efforts of the Lilburn CID. Between those efforts and the forward thinking of the Mayor, Lilburn City Council and all others I am impressed and encouraged. You have my full support.
Count Pennies
September 3rd, 2010
12:26 pm
Run! Mr. Taxpayer think you have 2 nickels to rub together
WTF
September 3rd, 2010
2:47 pm
I live right by there and would welcome it with open arms.
WTF
September 3rd, 2010
2:51 pm
In order to make money you have to spend it. This is a project that would not only bring construction jobs but also coaching jobs, top recruits from across the area which Gwinnett County is loaded with. I know there are downsides but there are also huge upsides and I have no problem with it. I live a few blocks away and would love my son to go there for great competition. It keeps kids off the streets while giving them a one on one environment with quality coaching. If it brings jobs to the area, keeps kids off the streets and also helps with our local economy then bring it in. I know of plenty of people who need to start working soon.
Tony Ross
September 3rd, 2010
4:39 pm
I am not writing in support of or against the project – just a few questions: what is the track record of projects like this one (not just the track record of this company, but others as well)? how long will it take the city to get its money back? if not this project, what will it take to make things better in Lilburn and hwy 29? What about this new Lilburn CID – who is leading the group – is it someone who has real world experience or just another somebody to fill an a job anyone with a high school education could do and what are the plans of that group (sounds like another group collecting money to do nothing)? what is been done to explore other possibilities (has anyone done any kind of study for hwy 29 to determine what will and what will not work)? is anybody working with groups outside of Lilburn (like the county or GA or even DC? we have to ask these questions and many more – lastly, what about a group of citizens to take a look at the project to get direct input from the community – has anyone thought of that?
Metrics
September 3rd, 2010
6:31 pm
What is the payback period, IRR and NPV for the county? That’s all that matters. Show me the money or you get no money!
Lilburn resident
September 3rd, 2010
6:44 pm
Thumbs up for me. I’ve watched Lilburn lose a lot of businesses in the ten years I’ve lived here, seen old ones close and new ones come and go. We need something that can keep the revenue here and spur development of good restaurants and entertainment complexes, the local base can’t currently support these items. Trust me, these kids and their parents will have the money to spend and will help more than anything I’ve seen attempted so far.
Long-time Lilburnite
September 4th, 2010
1:17 pm
Ben is right — we have too many parks and private athletic venues in Lilburn, or very close by, for this to be successful. And I’ll bet Big League Dreams had success in those other states because those towns had no competing sports venues. It will just be a boondoggle at the taxpayers’ expense. In how many ways can I say this is a BAD IDEA for Lilburn? So to fix over-development of strip shopping malls, now Lilburn is going to have over-development of sports venues? BAD IDEA.
Harold
September 4th, 2010
5:52 pm
Build it and they will come. I thinks it’s a great idea and will benefit the community and county greatly. Go to any park during baseball tournaments and they’er packed with a lot of money being spent on tournament fees and the concession stand. Multiply that by 52 and we are looking at a good return on your money, plus it puts Gwinnett on the map for out of county, out of state tournaments with easy access. This project will give a leg up for the area and set Gwinnett County in the right direction and into the big league. Make it happen.
Frankly
September 5th, 2010
11:10 am
“Build it and they will come” … and go to Mall of Georgia and Discover Mills areas to lodge, dine and shop! “They” will even bypass the deteriorating Gwinnett Place Mall area. Who in their right mind is going to spend time in Lilburn when they can drive a few miles up the road and have it all? Don’t think the other areas of Gwinnett (like Mall of GA) are not going to market their area.
Les
September 7th, 2010
9:40 pm
Councilman Price’s comment “I don’t mean to paint a bleak picture, but it’s going to take something very big to reverse the trend” makes him sound like the coach that thinks the only way to win the game is to hit a grand slam. Meanwhile he’s made zero moves to have his team try and score a run here and a run there to stay in the game at all. So tell me, after 15 years living in Lilburn, why is the strip center on Hwy 29 at Harmoney Grove still look blighted? Why is Lilburn town center so small, boring and uninviting? The City is not willing to do the little things to win the game; and now they want to gamble $20M of taxpayer liability on hoping to hit a grand slam in the bottom of the ninth. I have a better idea: let’s change the leadership of the team to people who are more creative and willing to work hard doing the little things that count!
Name One
September 8th, 2010
12:27 pm
It’s a very good idea in theory, and youth sport tournaments, whether soccer, lacrosse, baseball, football, softball etc., and adult tournaments in flag football, rugby, ultimate frisbee, soccer, baseball, softball, etc. can generate significant hotel and restaurant revenue. Virginia Beach has a nice sports complex ((http://beachsportsplex.com/) that draws in local, regional, national and even international tournaments, and it doesn’t have the to big advantages Lilburn has: a major airport & major highways like I-85 and I-20.
However, the red flag here is the $40 million price tag. I work in the profession, and a top notch complex should cost less than half of $40 mil. Not sure if the Lilburn City Council and mayor are sharp enough not to take every thing Big League Dreams Sports Parks tells them as fact. There is no way such a complex should cost anywhere near $40 mil. Build it, but build it at a fraction of the price.
TangoUniform
September 8th, 2010
1:11 pm
from the:
Posted by: Phil Location: Segre on Sep 5, 2010 at 01:06 PM
I’m a Lilburn resident and just started Googling Big League Dreams and their track record with their previous 10 sports complexes. Here are some facts…
#1-BLD is a private company, so it is not possible to obtain their financial records.
#2-BLD will only open sports complexes if the host city pays to build them. BLD will then give back some small portion of the gross revenue, only 5-7% at most. #3-BLD follows a simple path of underestimating construction costs, stating at first around $15M, just like they have done in Lilburn, with the true cost often close to double that in the end.
See what happened in Texas at … http://galvestondailynews.com/story.lasso?ewcd=9e38bd9741f7e162 #4. According to BLD themselves, over the past 10 years, operating 10 units, they have paid local governments a total of only $11M. That’s about $1M per complex over ten years. #5.
For Lilburn to pay off of 30 year 5% loan of ~$25M will cost $1.6M a year, or $4,412/day.
***Not one mention of the light pollution, and the traffic if this becomes reality. You think those participants are going to go wandering around Lilburn between games? Oh, that’s right, more building and business to turn what is navigable roadways into the snarl of traffic for those of us who just want a quiet existence. Glad I’m forecasting my escape plan to places far away from bright lights at midnight and traffic congestion. Y’all have fun, ya hear!