Police Run Roughshod Over Lawful Handgun Owner

No good deed goes unpunished — that’s a lesson George Boggs of Fayetteville, North Carolina, learned earlier this month when he voluntarily turned his handgun over to the local police for safe-keeping while he went into the hospital following an automobile wreck.  When Mr. Boggs (who maintains a valid concealed-carry permit for the handgun)  later attempted to retrieve his firearm, the police said, sorry, we’ve sent it out for ballistics testing and can’t give it back to you yet.

Apparently the police in North Carolina believe themselves empowered to retain a law-abiding citizen’s firearm, and test it to see if it matches any firearms or ammunition on which the police have records that were used in crimes, regardless of whether they have any suspicion whatsoever that the firearm is illegal or has ever been used in the commission of a crime.  And, the police do this even if the person has voluntarily and temporarily left a firearm with the police for safe keeping.  In this case also, the owner of the handgun did not want the firearm fired because it had never been fired since he purchased it new, and he believed its value would be diminished.

Tough luck, according to the law enforcement authorities; so long as they get a firearm — however they get a firearm — they keep it as long as they want to test it, and , if it matches ballistically with some record they have, they would keep it indefinitely.

So much for property rights.  So much for Fourth Amendment guarantees against unreasonable search and seizure.  And so much for being a good citizen.  When it comes to firearms, many law enforcement agencies believe they can do pretty much whatever they want, whenever they want, to whoever they want.

154 comments Add your comment

Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)

August 26th, 2009
7:42 am

Well, this is why I carry my anti-tank weapon and the two machine guns I use for hunting and self defense. The cops can’t test them to see if they’ve been used in a crime and ruin them. It’s pretty hard to test a anti-tank weapon after it’s blowed a target to smithereens. Same thing with a machine gun that’s fired about 500 rounds in 10 seconds.

I don’t know when guvmint people will get the idea we got a Second Ammendmint Right to own and carry guns. Even to political rallies and PTA meetings. You never know when a criminal is going to try and attack you. Some politicans and teachers are real mean.

Have a good day everybody and I hope you’re as outraged about what happened to this poor NC man as me.

Turd Ferguson

August 26th, 2009
7:54 am

Lettuce hope the one of the cops will shoot themselves with Mr Boggs gun. That would make me laugh!!

B

August 26th, 2009
8:10 am

What’s just as shameful Bob is the unintelligence people show when dealing with the gun issue. Like the people above. To them, because it’s a gun they took the moment to really deal with the issue at hand “ILLEGAL SEARCH AND SEIZURE”. It’s no wonder we’re losing our freedoms. We have ignorant people handing our freedoms away.

joe matarotz

August 26th, 2009
8:19 am

If the police found evidence of use in a crime, where does probable cause come in? A conviction brought under these circumstances would be overturned in the first appeals court that reviewed the case.

Where did these cops get their training? It must have been by reading Dick Tracy comics. Sheesh.

Davo

August 26th, 2009
8:21 am

Obamacare
We’re All Socialists Now
by Jack Hunter on August 25, 2009

http://www.takimag.com/article/were_all_socialists_now1/

“But the U.S. is not and cannot be Europe. Not because our current socialism is necessarily unsuccessful or even because the American people won’t tolerate it. We can’t afford it.”

clyde

August 26th, 2009
8:36 am

To a cop a citizen is just another suspect.The days when a cop was friendly and helpful are long past.The less you have to do with poice today,the better off you are.George Boggs knows this now.

bob

August 26th, 2009
9:09 am

This guy is stupid for giving the cops his gun.

Erik

August 26th, 2009
9:22 am

The rate that we are losing our individual rights is staggering.
What’s next, police taking your tire prints the next time you renew your driver’s license? Or perhaps they will start recording your cell phone history at airport security?

Curious Observer

August 26th, 2009
10:17 am

So, let me see if I have the situation correct. Mr. Boggs carries a gun that has never been fired. He purchased it new, and he never even tested it to see if it works–how many of us purchase a product and simply store it, without checking its functionality? Presumably, the gun is for self-protection, but the only way he’ll know if it meets that requirement will be the first time he attempts to fire it. It might have a defective firing pin, but he won’t know until he fires it, presumably at some evil-doer. And now he’s complaining that by firing it, the police will reduce the weapon’s value.

I hope I’m not the only one smelling a rat here.

Stu Strickler

August 26th, 2009
10:19 am

This is going way to far! The Police had no indication that this firearm was involved in a crime. This man trusted the Police to secure his personal protection while he went to the hospital. Mr. Boggs, please take these idiots to court and get your firearm back. It’s a very sad day when you you can’t trust the Police!

Daedalus

August 26th, 2009
10:20 am

We’ve been losing our rights long before Obama became President. Just read the Patriot Act. Bush and Cheney never saw a civil right that should not be subordinated to their political agenda. But we should only complain about Obama trampling on civil rightss, otherwise we may come to realize that we are being hypocritical.

I’m sure President Obama personally directed the cops in NC to keep Mr. Boggs gun. After all the NRA says that’s Obama’s agenda. Seize one gun at a time. At this rate Obama will have rounded all the guns up in America in about 150 years.

DeKalb Conservative

August 26th, 2009
10:22 am

Its impossible for the gun to never have been fired.

It would have been test fired in the factory (typically the gun comes with an envelop with an expelled cartridge).

DeKalb Conservative

August 26th, 2009
10:26 am

I would have expected a story like this in New York, Massachusetts or California, but not in North Carolina.

I think people need to be more educated about search and seizure. Too few people know what their rights are in these situations. Sadly, I consider myself one of these people and should get more versed in what options you have in this situation (car is likely getting towed–not a good place to leave the gun… likely you can’t bring the gun in a hospital… what option would he have? Wouldn’t there be consequences potentially if he called someone to bring the gun to his house for him?)

Stu Strickler

August 26th, 2009
10:28 am

Curious Observer, you have a valid point here. I wondered that too. I have carried a firearm for personal protection for many years, in many states. I would not carry a firearm that I have not tested and practiced with. We hope that we never have to use our firearm, but if we do, it had better do what it was designed to do without failure! When seconds counts, the Police are only minutes away.

clyde

August 26th, 2009
10:35 am

There are many commemerative firearms produced for collectors that arrive in an unfired condition.They must remain unfired to retain their value.Mr.Boggs probably had one of these.See how simple life really is.

DeKalb Conservative

August 26th, 2009
10:41 am

@ Clyde,

Wouldn’t using a commemorative firearm for carry purposes defeat the purposes? The would be like asking a pro baseball player to go on the field with a brand new glove that’s never been broken in and expect him to perform well.

In addition, I would this if it was a commemorative firearm that carrying it would devalue the firearm because of daily handling.

Anon

August 26th, 2009
10:44 am

@DeKalb Conservative — I’m going to assume you have never actually purchased a firearm due to your obviously incorrect statement that “typically the gun comes with an envelope with and expelled cartridge”. I have a closet full of guns (rifles, shotguns and pistols) and have never purchased one that came with an expelled cartridge. How could a manufacturer actually test all the guns they produce anyway? What are you thinking? People like you who think they know all there is to know about everything, even though it is outside your realm of expertise, are the ones responsible for spreading ignorance and false information. Protip: keep your comments to yourself unless they are actually valid.

dlyn

August 26th, 2009
11:00 am

Nowhere is it said he kept the firearm for personal protection. Many people keep firearms for investments and there are many that are never fired, other than factory testing which doesn’t count with collectors. Regardless, it does not justify the police abusing his trust and his rights.

DeKalb Conservative

August 26th, 2009
11:09 am

@ Anon

Sorry that I’m so ignorant. I must be suffering from Schizophrenia, or purchased a gun with a an error. My handgun came with an envelop that contained an ejected shell casing that documented the gun was test fired.

I might not know everything, but I would consider myself having more expertise than you on buying a handgun that was tested by the manufacturer since I have a first hand account and you have never heard of the concept.

proseshooter

August 26th, 2009
11:30 am

Welcome to the Peoples Republic Of North Carolina. People get the government they deserve.

YankeeDog

August 26th, 2009
11:47 am

Some interesting comments above – many of which indicate the lack of information and education the “average” person has with regard to firearms. For example, firearms should ALL be test fired before they leave the factory. Simply from the standpoint of manufacturer’s liability, this is an important aspect of quality control. The LAST place you want a critical malfunction is in the hands of the purchaser. To think otherwise is, quite frankly, naively stupid. Would you buy a motor vehicle that hadn’t had the engine started and been driven a short distance? I have purchased several firearms that were packaged with a spent casing to indicate this.

Secondly, it is ludicrous to carry a handgun for self defense with which the carrier has never practiced. That means firing the gun. With live ammunition. That’s not to say that it’s unfathomable to think someone would choose to carry a gun they had never fired, but the “collector’s value” would be degraded at least as much by holster wear as it would be by firing. I don’t know why it’s significant to the story that the owner held a concealed carry permit unless this weapon was kept for self defense. It just should make you wonder about the inherent judgment of Mr. Boggs.

And finally to Daedalus, you clearly demonstrate the kind of thinking that edifies elected officials and seems to conveniently forget that they serve at our pleasure, rather than the reverse. This is typical of the dangerous practice that allows law enforcement to violate our rights in order to protect the common good. We live in a nation founded on the ideals of individual rights and freedom; a concept our current president seems to either forget or blatantly disregard. While the Patriot Act was questionable at best, it was designed to keep the nation safe and provide for consequences to those who conspire against this country and its values. Mr. Obama all too often seems to want to punish the law abiding and successful (by outlawing firearms ownership and disproportionately taxing the affluent) to provide for the “common good.” I see a difference here, but understand that you may choose not to for your own reasons. I just think your wrong.

David

August 26th, 2009
11:52 am

To Redneck–You might want to read closley your permit, where you can carry. If you bring a gun on school grounds to a PTA meeting, you will be arrested if it is found out you have it.

Astronerd

August 26th, 2009
11:52 am

@DeKalb Conservative — Guns that come pretested come with a target showing the grouping of three shots… No empty casings. More concern is given to accuracy. They KNOW they will fire!

George Boggs was probably in an auto accident in which he was injured enough to be transported directly to the hospital. Would he be crazy enough to leave the firearm in the car unsecured or would he entrust it to the law enforcement? The same happened to me 26 years ago and, yes, when I finally got it back, three rounds were missing.

Thomas

August 26th, 2009
11:55 am

I have a 30-30 winchester and a 30-30- marlin neither have been fired.
I am not concerned about value for resale.I do know they both work as
the dent on the dead shell proves.When they do go off it will be for my
families protection.No if,no ands,no buts.

Jim's a Cherry Picker

August 26th, 2009
11:57 am

Hi Bob,

So nice job here in taking a statistically improbable and isolated event and turning it into a national conspiracy. I’d challenge you to find five more examples of this kind of activity. If you do, take that number and divide it by the estimated total number of gun owners in that town…not the state, just the town…and let me know what that ratio is.

Good luck with a task other than getting a bunch of paranoids more ginned up.

Losing our freedoms…sheesh.

YankeeDog

August 26th, 2009
11:58 am

Astronerd: You are incorrect. SOME firearms MAY include a test target to indicate POTENTIAL accuracy. Virtually ALL firearms SHOULD BE test fired. NOT ALL will include a spent casing, but SOME WILL.

BMF

August 26th, 2009
11:58 am

Redneck Convert is a douche bag. and more than likely a homo!

YankeeDog

August 26th, 2009
12:00 pm

Thomas: Sell one of your rifles and get a handgun or short barreled shotgun and practice. Unless you’re attacked by a whitetail, your 30-30 is a bit “overkill” for home defense.

Christy

August 26th, 2009
12:02 pm

Lesson learned: Do not voluntarily hand your firearms over to the police! He thought he was doing the right thing, since he would be absent from his home for a time, but everyone take note. Hold onto all your personal belongings, including guns, and allow no officials of any kind into your home without a search warrant in hand naming the exact place to be searched, the thing(s) to be searched for (4th amendment). No fishing expeditions or entering your personal residence or pawing through your personal possessions without the sworn warrant issued under probable cause. Unfortunately the younger batch of “police” officers are schooled in violating citizens’ Constitutional rights and are counting on the people not being aware of those rights. Also, unfortunately, they are mostly correct because we are not teaching our founding documents in the public school system, with rare exceptions. Let freedom ring – and cling to your guns, religion and the U.S. Constitution!

Jefferson

August 26th, 2009
12:41 pm

Fear and anger, reasons to buy a gun.

Steve

August 26th, 2009
12:50 pm

Astronerd & Anon,
I’ve purchased a couple of new guns over the years. The only one I didn’t get 2-3 spent cartridges with was a shotgun. I never got a target showing the grouping.

Steve

August 26th, 2009
12:51 pm

Jefferson,
You can add protection to your list of reasons.

Scooter

August 26th, 2009
1:05 pm

Jefferson, you forgot hunting and sport shooting.

Mike

August 26th, 2009
1:05 pm

And exactly what is wrong with this? If he’s got nothing to hide, then no worries. It could have been used in a crime prior to the current owner buying it. And a check like that could lead to a solved crime, by the previous owner.

You gun rights people are nutty.

Scooter

August 26th, 2009
1:10 pm

Mike, If he had something to hide I don’t think he would have handed the gun to a policeman. :roll:

Jason

August 26th, 2009
1:13 pm

YankeeDog and Dekalb Conservative,

Some states require that a gun be test fired and a casing be included with the firearm at purchase, but not all states. Also, the story does not give Mr. Boggs age or the date of purchase of the firearm (could have been 20 years ago before the state laws). Purchasing a gun recently does not make one an expert on all gun sales. Stating that all guns should be test fired does not mean that all guns are test fired. Also, wondering about the judgment of Mr. Boggs, whom you have never met, makes me wonder about your judgment.

Chris Broe

August 26th, 2009
1:15 pm

Bob Barr poses more questions than he answers. Did the cops fire the new gun five or six times? In all the confusion, hijinks, and revelry of firing a brand-spanking-new magnum, they must have lost count themselves. I’m trying to think of the founding-father objection that gets brought up in this legal quagmire of constitutional rights vs the ballistical privilege implicit in the act of surrendering the most powerful handgun in the world to ordnance-deprived police, (the gun so powerful it could blow your head clean off-the police so deprived they’re depraved).

The issue remains one of demagoguery. Bob Barr continues his grass-roots grasp-for-kooks (and other mindless followers) to poll for his clumsy attempt to build an anti-big bro platform. This is a card he plays over and over ad nauseam to the point where he comes across as some unwanted, unwarranted and desperately-hybrid splice of peanut gallery dregs politically situated somewhere between Howdy Doody and Dennis The Menace.

That would make him a virtual puppet in his own animated cartoon. Somehow that makes him a perfect candidate for Saudi Stooge (and thus president).

Jklol

Jefferson

August 26th, 2009
1:29 pm

Steve & Scooter — I agree on the hunting and sport shooting, protection is fear based (and not a bad idea in many cases).

I’m with Bob on this one.

Scooter

August 26th, 2009
1:43 pm

Dang Chris, who jerked your chain? Whew!

pv2bdrco

August 26th, 2009
1:45 pm

If I follow the logic…no citizen at City Hall or the Justice Buildings may be arrested or obtained if they conduct business with local authorities – ie obtaining licenses, paying water bills, acting as witness in court – even if there are outstanding warrants for their arrest, unpaid tickets or fines, or if they have been accused of or participated in a crime. Mr. Barr, you are a doofus.

Jon

August 26th, 2009
1:53 pm

1) @Chris Broe-That entire statement made no sense. We are all less intelligent for having read it.

2) In regards to the conversation about new guns being sold with spent casings. While not all states, require such, all gun manufactors (that I know of at least) test fire every weapon that comes off the line.

3) I don’t think the fact that it was in his vehicle implies that he was carrying it for personal defense. He very well could have been transporting it.

4) All of that being said, If a drug dealers stash was taken in such an illegal fashion (i.e. without warrant or just cause), the ACLU and numerous other left wing groups would be rushing the defense of the the criminal. Where are the same groups when a law abiding citizen’s rights are trampled?

Jim

August 26th, 2009
2:02 pm

Let’s roll it back by one amendment — to the First. Let’s say that the auto accident involved an investigative reporter. Let’s say it was the very best Mac Powerbook that was ever made, all decked out. Let’s say that the reporter asked the friendly policeman to hang on to his computer as he was being taken to the ambulance; after all, he wouldn’t want some bad guy to steal it.

Now let’s suppose that, when he asks for it back, the Chief of Police tells him that no, the police have sent the computer for forensic analysis of the hard drive because they want to make sure that the reporter isn’t working secretly on a story about police corruption in the city.

The American Civil Liberties Union (four lies for the price of one…) would be on it like big green flies on a fresh cow patty.

jconservative

August 26th, 2009
2:05 pm

“When it comes to firearms, many law enforcement agencies believe they can do pretty much whatever they want, whenever they want, to whoever they want.”

Bob you got this wrong. When it comes to ANYTHING, most law enforcement agencies believe they can do pretty much whatever they want.

CharlesP

August 26th, 2009
2:12 pm

MANY OF YOU ARE RIGHT!
WHY WOULD SOMEONE CARRY A GUN THAT IS NEVER BEEN FIRED! WHAT GOOD IS IT IF YOU HAVE NEVER TRAINED OR EVEN TESTED IT????

AND WHY WOULD ANYONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND GIVE ANYTHING TO POLICE TO HOLD, WHEN THE POLICE ARE FAMOUS FOR SUCH HIGH RATES OF CORRUPTION????

IF EVER in a situation where you cannot control the weapon, UNLOAD IT AND GIVE THE AMMO TO THE POLICE. IT CAN BE REPLACED EASILY! KEEP YOUR WEAPON WITH YOU!!!

Chris Broe

August 26th, 2009
2:23 pm

Chip

August 26th, 2009
2:23 pm

Mike thinks that “You gun rights people are nutty.”

Perhaps the police should start taking DNA samples from anyone they choose to, in case that person has ever committed a rape or otherwise left DNA at a crime scene.

Would this be an acceptable practice, Mike? Or would it be nutty?

Jimbo

August 26th, 2009
2:26 pm

@Mike:

Why not let them search your car at random if you have nothing to hide? Why not let them search your house if you have nothing to hide? Why not let them take your fingerprints or DNA and store them indefinitely if you have nothing to hide? You know what, let them go through your private correspondance, email, mail, and text.. afterall, you have nothing to hide. Perhaps they should record your internet use, because no one should have anything to hide. In fact, go one step further, let’s put a program that reports back to the government on anything you do on a computer.. you have nothing to hide, right?

This is why what they police did in this situation is wrong:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The pistol is his personal effect. You guys that are quibbling over whether his pistol came from the factory with test casings or not are missing the forest for the trees. Who cares? He might have purchased a commemorative weapon and had it in the care. Regardless of his questionable habits or the value of the weapon, the actions of the police in this regard is wrong, it’s unconstitutional, and it undermines the public trust. When we can’t trust our police to enforce the laws of the land, what good are they?

Jimbo

August 26th, 2009
2:29 pm

@ Jefferson,

Protection is fear based like insurance, fire extinguishers, and first aid kits are fear based. I’ll take my fear over unpreparedness anyday.

Mutts-R-Stupid-especially-journalism-majors

August 26th, 2009
3:07 pm

Hence the pledge “they can have my gun when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.” Hopefully it will have an empty clip at that time….

Veryhighpower

August 26th, 2009
3:10 pm

LAW SUIT Violation of 4th ammendment rights.

Steve

August 26th, 2009
3:17 pm

Jimbo,
I don’t thiink we were missing the point as much as we went off on a tangent (as most these blogs tend to do).
I agree that running ballistics seems as though the cops overstepped their bounds; however, I do not know how N.C. state law reads – in terms of police officials being able to run ballistics on a gun that is voluntarily rendered to them. I’ve got a friend up there who is a lawyer I sent the question to.

DeKalb Conservative

August 26th, 2009
3:32 pm

@ Jimbo

Great way to sum this up and steer the conversation back!

I hate to be cynical about this, but this is an excellent illustration of how people need to be in it for themselves. This example undermines the constitution on so many levels.

Moving forward, how would you have handled this situation if George Bogg’s shoes and had to relive it again?

Nuther-Steve

August 26th, 2009
3:34 pm

I was in a car accident in Washington State several years ago. Cops that were helping to extricate me noticed the pack and asked if I had a permit. “Yep, wanna see it?” I answered. Nope, he said. State Patrol Trooper took me at my word, (at least at that point,) and helped get my pack off. He said it would be secured in the patrol car, and gave me a card with a number to call to recover it after the trip to the ER.

Ten hours later, I called the number and they said to meet them at one of small local offices near where the hospital was.

The troop looked at my drivers license, opened the trunk, and handed me my pouch, which appeared to be undisturbed/unopened.

At least the zipper was exactly where I’d left it. No rounds missing, and the velcro straps on the internal holster were right where I’d left them.

THAT’s the way it’s supposed to be done.

What’s wrong with what happened in NC is really simple. Unlawful seizure. Period. Doesn’t matter if it is a gun, sledgehammer or a laptop. People are too busy demonizing guns to realize the REAL threat that this action contains.

Steve

itpdude

August 26th, 2009
3:40 pm

Yet more evidence on why you don’t want to trust the police.

John D.

August 26th, 2009
3:47 pm

Oh my god, Bob Barr, Board Member of the National Rifle Association! The police actually took a few hours to test a gun to see if it was a crime gun! What an insane affront to public safety! How did this man survive for a few hours (or maybe even a DAY OR TWO) without a gun he had never even fired? This is SO SAD. Even if he owned 15 other guns, I just don’t see how he made it through this experience. I hope millionaire Wayne LaPierre was there to comfort him personally.

Billy Bob

August 26th, 2009
3:54 pm

Recently, I had a chance occasion to interact with my metro-Atlanta (not Atlanta) city’s police force. It seems my youngest son had been engaged in expressing his artistic vision on a wall neither he nor I owned. He is a good artist – really – but that judgement thing hasn’t fully developed. I am hopeful.

At 2:30 AM the police rapped on my front door and invited a sleepy-eyed Billy Bob to discuss his son’s behaviour. Both officers shined a light in my face as I eyed them through my front door glass. After confirming their bona fides I invited them in the house. They seemed perturbed but professional.

I roused my suspect, er, son out of bed and led him to the kitchen table where his inquisitors awaited. He seemed eerily calm on the surface. A short question and answer session between the officers, me and the artist led to a request for a written confession of all deeds. My son began to write what appeared to be an essay of some length. I grew worried.

When he finished writing, I took the page and reviewed it for content. No sense giving the cops any evidence if the artist was also on the grassy knoll I thought. Much to my relief, my son had limited his drawing to one small section of a wall covered with such drawings and he simply wanted to detail his crime. Artists.

I passed the essay on to the officers and they also reviewed it for content. Both were stern faced and had little sympathy for any vandalism committed no matter the skill of the artist. I concurred and assured them as did my son that such an act would never happen again – restitution would also be made to the owner of the property.

The officers noted the two or three pertinent criminal charges that levied against my son. He was a juvenile, to be sure, but criminal damage to property is never taken lightly. He was clearly shaken as was his dad.

About 3:00 AM the two officers finished up and excused themselves. As I led them to the door, one of the officers apologized for the late hour of their visit. I assured them that I understood they were only doing their job. He looked directly at me and nodded.

Later that week, I noticed the wall in question had been completely repainted by the owner. None of the drawing had been linked to any organized gang and most of the perpetrators had willingly confessed to their deeds. I never heard another word about the incident from the police.

I can’t speak to why the gentleman in your article gave the police his gun for safekeeping, but I can tell you that, far more often than not, law enforcement officers do their jobs in a professional manner. Even at 2:30 AM.

William

August 26th, 2009
3:54 pm

We know that some and I do mean a few policeman react and behave beyond their legal responisbilities at the expense of our civil rights. This should warrent investigation and litigation to remove this psuedo authority these policeman claim to have.

clyde

August 26th, 2009
4:14 pm

In North Carolina,a permit holder,when in the presence of a police officer has to notify the officer he has a concealed weapon and a permit to carry same.Apparently Mr. boggs did what was required and it appears the police maybe thought they were in Russia,or someplace where police have special powers.

r.c.

August 26th, 2009
4:20 pm

i read every comment & no one seems to know why a spent casing comes with most new handguns? it is state law in which certain manufactures resides that 2 rounds be fired through the pistol with the a.t.f. to have one round & the seller to have the other. the seller (gun shop) just usually doesn’t keep theirs. – the round goes into a database for firing pin comparison & casing mark comparison.

Mike

August 26th, 2009
4:56 pm

It is amazing to look at the assumptions that writers make in the blogs. Where in the story does it say he had been carrying the gun for any length of time. since it may have been a collectible. He may have bought it that day. Stick to the issues. Don’t try to make assumptions as to the facts, and the blogs will make more sense.

zero

August 26th, 2009
5:03 pm

go 2nd amendment & go 4th amendment (10th too…all hell, throw in the entire bill of rights!!)

i love the guncontrollers gay cry “if youve got nothing to hide, youve got nothing to fear”

ha ha, cops have a less than perfect record for integrity, brains & obeying laws they enforce.
only fairy tale believers put their faith and wellbeing in the hands of cops to protect & serve.

it should be to protect other cops and serve themselves.

Eric

August 26th, 2009
5:12 pm

Why carry a gun at all? The odds are incredibly low you’d get shot or have an occasion to shoot another person anyway. Much ado about nothing.

woodie

August 26th, 2009
5:26 pm

I totally don’t get why he’d give his gun to the police. The police are no more trustworthy than anyone. Would you give your gun to strangers? Doesn’t make sense.

Songbird

August 26th, 2009
5:30 pm

Thomas if you’ve never fired either of your guns you’ll probably shoot yourself in the foot instead of shooting whoever you’re trying to defend yourself against. Practice with any firearm is the only way to get good at shooting it. Without practicing, you have no idea what kind of kick they have or how to aim the gun to hit your target. lmao….

Nuther-Steve

August 26th, 2009
5:45 pm

Eric:
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html

John D.:

Consider the following fictional scenario:

I just followed you in to the bathroom, and after you left, I took a cotton swab and picked up a sample of your urine splatter and processed it for drug usage. How do I know it was yours? The urinal was cleaned and prepped and you were the only person to get into the bathroom.

Your test came back negative for anything.
——

Did I just violate your rights or not?

James

August 26th, 2009
5:49 pm

My Sig Sauer came with a target showing the grouping of the test fired rounds but no casings. My Ruger LCP, came with no target but did have a spent casing inside an envelope.

Johnny Bang Bang

August 26th, 2009
5:56 pm

Wow, voluntarily turning over your gun to any government entity is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I would hide it, bury it, hang it in a tree or swallow it first. You are a potential threat to law enforcement in there eyes, plus you have a persistent hierarchy of ass kissers always trying to get promoted. These people love to make a mountain out of a mole hill. SMARTEN UP.

GunMan

August 26th, 2009
6:36 pm

Big mistake–giving a gun to the police–now he’s in their database and he’ll be scrutinized more than ever by the government and police, trying to take away his rights.

Tyler

August 26th, 2009
6:44 pm

Mr. Boggs is a retired Army Sergeant First Class, I think he knows how to shoot a firearm.

Citizen Patriot

August 26th, 2009
7:29 pm

This is yet another example of how law enforcement personnel believe they are uber-authorities to do whatever they please. Meanwhile passing out PBA cards to the family members and flashing the “Master-Shield” whenever they are stopped by the other members of the fraternity and lining their pockets with bribes and payoffs. Trust a cop, to screw ya!

Jim

August 26th, 2009
7:30 pm

Keep voting for liberals and all of our rights will go away, including the second amendment. Our current President said “I know the Constitution, I taught the Constitution and I will uphold and defend the Constitution of the US. So far, all he’s done is crap all over it. If the current administration and their cohorts in Congress have their way, the second amendment will no longer exist in four years.

Rev. Dave

August 26th, 2009
7:45 pm

Boggs must have hit his head in the accident to hand over his gun. There are police in my family, and even they tell me that the police are NOT our friends. Basically, in any situation they view any citizen as a suspect of something unless there is someone around who is more clearly a criminal than you are – e.g. call them for an intruder in your home and they’ll get it right. But of course, without your gun, they’ll only be bagging your body too, and the suspect will be long gone.

Anyway, he now has standing for a lawsuit on grounds of violating his 4th Amendment rights and maybe his 2nd Amendment rights as well. True patriots can only hope he pursues that option.

Mach37

August 26th, 2009
7:46 pm

From the information in Bob Barr’s comment, where does any of these commenters get the idea that Mr. Boggs turned over a giant magnum gun to the police? Where did they get the idea the gun was in his car, any car let alone the one involved in the accident?

By my reckoning, failure of the police to return the gun when Mr. Boggs asked for it constitutes seizure. Based on my experience with a Missouri Highway Patrolman during a traffic stop, no ticket issued, I would never trust a law enforcement officer to comply with my constitutional rights. Sure, there are good ones out there, but there must be just as many who consider anyone they come in contact with as guilty of something, if they can just find the right wedge to pry it out.

Jay6

August 26th, 2009
7:47 pm

Ever heard of putting your firearm in a box and carrying it and putting it in your safe deposit box at the bank? I don’t know about the fellow in the story, but I have friends that I would feel completely safe letting them hold on to it until I get back in action. A lot of those posting here are so anal retentive, they CAN’T have any real friends…

Cliff

August 26th, 2009
7:57 pm

Sounds like a pretty good lawsuit to me!
Hope he has sought the advice of a good attorney!

Mac

August 26th, 2009
8:09 pm

And he loved big brother.

Slip Mahoney

August 26th, 2009
8:09 pm

Sad to hear all the details of this. Absolute BIG NO NO to trust a cop. Not to say all are bad, yet here we have a prime example why not to. He should have scured it another way. Now I live in Charlotte and it appears that the police can and will do as they please and get away with it. I have had suck an encounter with them and it was very ugly. WHen you call internal affairs they really turn up the heat. We are on the verge of losing our freedoms and I hope it doesnt come to this but it sure smells like REVOLUTION to me. I wish you all well.
Slip Mahoney and the DeadEndkids

Slip Mahoney

August 26th, 2009
8:18 pm

EDIT ! That was suppose to be such, not suck ! : ) Sorry

Gregg Weber

August 26th, 2009
8:26 pm

You, a citizen of the US, meet some government worker, either a judge in robes, a bureaucrat behind a counter or desk, or a police officer of any authority. There is only one citizen of the United States of America there. You.
The other person represents the Government and has one of two paths to follow. He or she can either go down the path of civil servant and follow the Constitution, or the other path as a petty tyrant working for tyranny over the people by some future tyrant acting under color of law.

Question to all military, especially National Guard, (who are really the Militia as mentioned in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 15 (Notice that the Army does not have those or any responsibilities mentioned in OUR Constitution.)):
Where is the line separating fighting for the people and Constitution against an insurrection on one side, and fighting for the people and Constitution against a tyranny acting under color of law?
I don’t want to see no Tiananmen Square over here because they just “obeyed orders”.

mikey1966

August 26th, 2009
8:54 pm

That sucks that he had to give up his pistol,Here in Michigan hospitals are pistol free zones for some strange reason ,If I got into a wreck I plan on locking my pistol in my gun locker mounted in my truck if I’m able and not hurt to bad ,I would be the only one with a key

fr8dog

August 26th, 2009
8:55 pm

When will people get it that when it comes to guns, police are NOT your friends. Why would anyone in their right mind temporarily turn in a gun to police? What did this guy go to a hospital for a Brain Transplant? GET A CLUE!!! Dont register your guns and NEVER voluntarily turn them in. “FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS!!!!

Bravo Sierra

August 26th, 2009
9:27 pm

Give the guy a break. He WAS in a car accident, and obviously gave his weapon to the police at the scene, rather than carry it to the hospital. I might have done the same thing to avoid the inevitable discovery of the weapon. Better to show the permit and hand it over than get cuffed in the emergency room and have to explain. Remember, we are dealing with an “ignorance of rights” public

The police may have a policy to check every weapon, regardless how they aquired it, even though they are breaking an amendment of the Constitution. They may believe they are doing the right thing though they are actually breaking the highest law.

So many organizations and businesses have policies that violate our rights, on top of the actual laws that are unconsitutional. It’s mind boggling.

I have more than one pistol for just such situations… My chances of getting into a car accident are so much higher than getting into a gunfight with a bad guy. But I know my pistol will fire everytime…. all six of them

Hypocrite

August 26th, 2009
9:29 pm

Bob Barr is suddenly a “protect your rights” libertarian. But as federal prosecutor, he took every opportunity to take away rights of citizens for some alleged violations of bogus federal laws. The government is not your friend. They seize power and take away rights.

lil suzy pancake

August 26th, 2009
9:35 pm

I hope this man gets a good lawyer and buys that police station-Not all cops are pigs,there are some good ones but this man is being treated as a criminal and has done nothing.I would rather take my chances in this damn country and the world than live in a police state with the gestapo running around.

Eric T.

August 26th, 2009
10:18 pm

Comments on firearms are best left to people who know something about them, so all you anti-gun readers of Atlanta Urinal and Constipation should keep your comments to yourself!

[...] Bob Barr shames the police of Fayetteville, NC who have “run roughshod” over a citizen’s rights.  [Atlanta Journal Constitution] [...]

William Tipton

August 26th, 2009
10:37 pm

“don’t know when guvmint people will get the idea we got a Second Ammendmint Right to own and carry guns. Even to political rallies and PTA meetings. You never know when a criminal is going to try and attack you. Some politicans and teachers are real mean.”
============================
Yeah wiseacre….tell this to the 13 people slaughtered in Binghamton New York a while back who THOUGHT they were in a no gun zone….certainly no one would break the law by bringing in a gun and shooting anyone (rolleyes).
Where do you people come from and what cave have you been living in ???

William Tipton

August 26th, 2009
10:42 pm

“There are many commemerative firearms produced for collectors that arrive in an unfired condition.They must remain unfired to retain their value.Mr.Boggs probably had one of these.See how simple life really is.”
=========================================
Exactly.
I had 357 magnum revolver I kept for self defense for two years, never fired a shot. I used other guns for practice. When I sold the 357 I still had never shot it.

It depends when the man bought the gun as far as if it had been shot at the factory or not.
Personally, Id think it had been an he just didnt know it, if it was newer.

William Tipton

August 26th, 2009
10:44 pm

“Sorry that I’m so ignorant. I must be suffering from Schizophrenia, or purchased a gun with a an error. My handgun came with an envelop that contained an ejected shell casing that documented the gun was test fired.”
=====================================
It hasnt always been that way, tho.
The last two guns I purchased were the ONLY guns Ive ever bought that had that envelope with the spent casing.

William Tipton

August 26th, 2009
10:48 pm

“Secondly, it is ludicrous to carry a handgun for self defense with which the carrier has never practiced. That means firing the gun. With live ammunition. That’s not to say that it’s unfathomable to think someone would choose to carry a gun they had never fired, but the “collector’s value” would be degraded at least as much by holster wear as it would be by firing. I don’t know why it’s significant to the story that the owner held a concealed carry permit unless this weapon was kept for self defense. It just should make you wonder about the inherent judgment of Mr. Boggs.”
===============================================
And its not nice to assume someone is a liar without proof.
*IF* it was a collector piece he could have (very ignorantly) just been carrying it that particular day thinking he would never have to fire it where he was going.
I have a 357 Ruger I carry and I know that the ODDS are I will never ever have to fire it in self defense.
But I carry it anyway…because sometimes the odds just dont work out in my favor.
Without knowing what the man was thinking its pretty rude to assume he’s a liar.

William Tipton

August 26th, 2009
10:53 pm

“Fear and anger, reasons to buy a gun.”
==============================
yeah….it couldnt possibly be the fact that there are so many nuts out there shooting and stabbing people to death. Our wives and children dont deserve to be protected from these dirtbags…do they (rollseyes).

Common sense and being in touch with reality…reasons to buy a gun.

William Tipton

August 26th, 2009
10:55 pm

“And exactly what is wrong with this? If he’s got nothing to hide, then no worries. It could have been used in a crime prior to the current owner buying it. And a check like that could lead to a solved crime, by the previous owner.
You gun rights people are nutty.”
=====================================
Lets see if you are so cooperative when they decide to send your car out to the crime lab and dont give it back for a few months.
we never know…maybe you ran down some kid last week…..

William Tipton

August 26th, 2009
11:04 pm

“Why carry a gun at all? The odds are incredibly low you’d get shot or have an occasion to shoot another person anyway. Much ado about nothing.”
========================================
Thats the same oblivious naivety that gets innocent folks killed
So the odds are that you wont be a statistic. But those statistics are made up of REAL…and quite DEAD, individuals.
Will I be one…..or wont I…..lets roll the dice and see…

Or maybe I can make sure that I have the means to defend myself and others, including my wife and grandson, in the off chance some guy drives his car up against the back door to keep anyone from leaving while he comes in the front door armed with a gun.

One thing is absolute.
*IF* this happens *I* am prepared….and you ?

.

RLWhite

August 26th, 2009
11:05 pm

Gun collectors often will purchase a gun with the intention of keeping it for its value as a commemorative item or rareity and firing it will decrease its’s value. If you plan on collecting, get a good safe as no one values your property like yourself.

DF

August 26th, 2009
11:30 pm

OBAMA BIGGEST ASS MISTAKE AMERICA.

fr8dog

August 26th, 2009
11:30 pm

Eric wrote on 26 Aug / 5:12 pm: “….Why carry a gun at all? The odds are incredibly low you’d get shot or have an occasion to shoot another person anyway….”
===================================================
Eric: You’re absolutely right. The odds ARE “incredibly low”. And adds are also incredibly low for your home to burn down: low for you to get into an automobile accident, and low for you to contract a life threatening disease or serious injury. In fact none of the above has ever happened to me. So Eric, here’s a money saving suggestion. Cancel all of these unnecessary, expensive insurance policies. The “Chances” are you’ll never need them. The only incident, unmentioned, that did happen to me was a man once attempted to rob me as I walked back to my hotel late one night. Fortunately for me, and Very unfortunately for him, in addition to all the above mentioned insurance policies, I also carried insurance for this unlikely possibility. It’s issued by “Glock” Insurance Co. (Policy # .45). Perhaps you’ve heard of it.
Eric the IGNORANUS. Turley an amusing guy…… LMAO

1911

August 27th, 2009
12:12 am

If you think there is a 4th Amendment Right in this country you are delusional. Cops can make your life miserable with impunity. It won’t be too long before there are fingerprint & DNA records for all. I’ll guarantee that if Boggs died his estate would never see that gun again.

DDBELLE

August 27th, 2009
3:17 am

Well, it’s time a female weighed in on this subject. I carry a purse, and I would never hand it over to anyone if I were in an accident. Why not have a backback that one could put personal items into in case of an emergency, and carry it with them wherever they go. I would be outraged if someone in the hospital, or wherever, tried to go through my purse or backpack. Maybe we need a “Don’t ask, don’t tell” policy for cases such as this. Yes, I carry, for my own personal protection, and feel more comfortable doing so. And, I have gone through the NRA-sponsored course to learn the safe handling of a firearm. At the time I owned a .38 revolver, and found out at the course that it was “too much gun for me” so I sold it and bought a .22 Walther which I can handle confidently. No, it wouldn’t do as much damage to a perpetrator, but I think I could knock a gun out of someone’s hand with it. I can’t believe that in a place such as Luby’s cafeteria in Texas that no one had a gun. They were all just sitting ducks, waiting to be shot by the maniac. All of these places that say no guns allowed probably don’t have one on the premises to protect the patrons. There are even shootings in churches now days. I would hate to be innocently worshipping my Lord and be shot because no one in the church had a gun. I think the greatest issue with gun owners is their lack of knowledge of the gun and their inexperience. I was one of them prior to the NRA-sponsored course. After taking the all-day course, I felt that anyone that purchases or owns a gun should be required to take the course, in the same way that we are required to learn to drive safely before getting behind the wheel of a car – another potential weapon. I have so much more confidence now with a gun, and I learned to aim and shoot accurately. What a concept! I probably could never have hit anything with the .38 anyway. The course was wonderful, and I encourage you all to take it the first chance you get, unless you already know all about gun safety and accuracy. I would hope that Rep. Bob Barr would use his influence to make this change. So, I too got a little off on a tangent, but had much I wanted to say. I don’t feel this would violate anyone’s rights, any more than one’s rights are violated by having to be licensed in a state to drive a car, so please don’t get in an uproar over this. I felt so much better after the course, and I think it would benefit everyone. And, my husband feels much better now that I don’t wave my gun around when talking about it. It is important to know how to responsibly handle a gun. Now I am afraid of gun owners who don’t know how. So, I have to protect myself against them too??

Robert Leonard

August 27th, 2009
6:50 am

What a mope! NEVER turn your handgun into a law enforcement officer. Your right to keep and bear is protected by the constitution. End of story.

Santana Moss

August 27th, 2009
7:08 am

So much for property rights. So much for Fourth Amendment guarantees against unreasonable search and seizure. And so much for being a good citizen. When it comes to firearms, many law enforcement agencies believe they can do pretty much whatever they want, whenever they want, to whoever they want.

You got that right Bob. Try going through the day brown or with an accent. Every beer bellied bubba with a badge wants to see papers. This is not America anymore. At least the land of the free part.

Ben

August 27th, 2009
7:29 am

To Redneck–You might want to read closley your permit, where you can carry. If you bring a gun on school grounds to a PTA meeting, you will be arrested if it is found out you have it.
———————————————————————————————————————–
Now it’s you who should read GA law more closely. It’s states that a person can carry a gun or any other weapon onto school grounds during the normal transaction of dropping someone off or picking them up. The weapon cannot be brought inside of the school but weapons are allowed on school grounds in the parking lot. Also, back in the middle 90s there was a federal “zero tolerance” type law that was passed to stop people from carrying guns onto school grounds; it was ruled to be unconstitutional by SCOTUS which kicked the problem backed to the states and as we all know state laws vary from one state to the other.

So be careful with blanket statement and assumptions.

Zip

August 27th, 2009
7:49 am

Just curious…..why would someone want to carry a gun that they have never fired? I carry my gun everywhere except to work and to Church and I train with it at least every couple weeks. Anyone who carries a firearm should be intimately familiar with it’s operation and reliability. Even though it angers me that the police would keep his weapon, I’m not unhappy that this fool is no longer armed.

dgroy

August 27th, 2009
8:00 am

Folks, the handgun handed in to the NC Police Department…..voluntarily, was private property!!!!! Entrusted to the PD for safe keeping……They had no right to fire the gun unless they had a warrant to do so. If we let them get away with this type of activity, they will continue this kind of activity and probably start to take away more and more of our rights. Bob Barr, a great American, keep informing the public……you’re doing us a great service.

Gregg

August 27th, 2009
8:28 am

Where were everyone that is so outraged against this when the Susan Smith (also in North Carolina) says she was car jacked by an African-American. Subsequently many of the men matching her description were brought in for questioning. Where was the outrage? Oh, that’s right that don’t count it’s just dem colored folks and all of dem done done sumting or anuther huh?
Secondly, If he purchased the weapon, not knowing Mr Barr, where he purchased it from? He may have purchased it from someone who used it in the comission of a crime and he unknowingly purchased it. If a crime was solved from this would there be an argument?

clyde

August 27th, 2009
8:36 am

Gregg,
The people of North Carolina were still trying to defend their LaCrosse?? team.They’ll get around to Susan Smith soon enough.

John

August 27th, 2009
8:45 am

Now, let me make sure I’ve got this correct. The guy had a concealed carry permit, carried it with him at the time of an accident, but had never fired the weapon? Never had he taken it to the range to check out the weapon or to get any practice? Any that is responsible gun use?
Doesn’t quite add up to me.
BTW, I do think that the police should have had a probable cause before they examined it.

Jimbo

August 27th, 2009
9:08 am

Gregg,

It doesn’t matter whether it was used in a crime or not. The man has rights, just like those black men you were talking about have rights, just like everyone has rights. If I knew you committed a crime in my heart of hearts and beat a confession out of you, that would be a violation of your rights. If they discovered that this gun was used in a crime I doubt this guy would even get indicted because the police used improper procedure and violated this man’s rights. The police are undermining the law, not enforcing it, when they do crap like this.

Papi

August 27th, 2009
9:20 am

Without question, this man had his 4th amendment rights trampled on. Please note the actual language of the law. “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized – illegal search and seizure.” What part of this is so difficult to understand? When we, or the police, start making excuses to violate these rights – like it MIGHT solve a crime – we start down a very dangerous road filled with endless excuses to shred the Constitution and The Bill of Rights.

ramblwrk68

August 27th, 2009
9:46 am

Well, if I buy a brand-spanking new semi-automatic, I’d like to to know it’s been test-fired to see if the slide and magazine actually WORK! A revolver I can test without bullets, not a semi.

Regards the 4th amend., I wonder how many US voters know that they INVITE a law-enforcement authority in their home, they have just given a carte-blanche search warrant inside those walls to said authority?

Jimbo

August 27th, 2009
9:55 am

That’s not necessarily true, there have been cases about locked rooms and what not. Officers can observe their surroundings but they can’t just go rummaging around without permission.

David S

August 27th, 2009
10:09 am

There is nothing about the government police that involves the safety of the american citizen.

James

August 27th, 2009
10:18 am

Don’t mean to bash all cops- have had lots of exprnc. when ovr. rd. trk. drvr. But never ever trust an officer until he proves himself first. How that happens is up to you.Texas= Two Mex. American brothers one commits a robery where someone was killed both arrested the purp escapes after trial where both convicted. Purp confesses-brother in jail had wittneses to inosense. Purp gets suronded commits suicide by police. Brother in jail getts executed.Even after overwellming proof of inocense.
DON”T TRUST THE POLICE. They almost always carry something they can drop on you if they feel the need. Pls. don’t get me wrong here I know quit a few officers and most are as honest as the day is long.Just don’t piss em off.Be polite and if you’re wrong–you’re wrong-man up and deal with it.

Papi

August 27th, 2009
10:56 am

The issue is whether this man had his rights violated by THIS officer or THIS police dept – not whether or not we can trust ANY police officer. Like James said, most officers are honest and genuinely interested in protecting our rights – not abusing our rights. The biggest threat to our constituional rights is our politicians – not our police officers. But sometimes we do encounter a bad cop (as apparently we have here) just like we encounter bad teachers, bad clergy members, bad parents, and bad politicians. Let’s not push this forum into something that condemns (or supports) all police officers because of the actions of a small over-zealous police unit.

Jimbo

August 27th, 2009
11:23 am

Papi,

As long as you bear in mind that it was Atlanta Police Officers who lied to get a no-knock on house that had not drugs in it, shot an old lady, then tried to plant drugs to get out of trouble. While corruption amongst police agencies may not be systemic, it is widespread, and it is an issue.

Papi

August 27th, 2009
11:46 am

Jimbo – Not sure I would agree police corruption is “widespread” but it would make a great forum discussion on another day. The issue here is what happened to one man in Fayetteville, NC and whether or not this police dept was out of control and out of touch with our constitution. Personally, I plan to write the mayor and chief of police to express my concern. Wrapping up a complete bundle of police corruption issues around the country into my letter will probably get my concerns dismissed. For now, I’ll keep the focus on the issue at hand.

Ric Wiley

August 27th, 2009
12:02 pm

Just dropping a line to stop all the assumptions about this story, because we all know what happens when we ass-u-me. I listen to the NRA NEWS station daily, and they interveiwed Mr. Boggs on Wed.. He was not carrying the gun for any purpose, he had just bought the gun in July and had not been to the range yet to fire it, not sure why it was in the car, he didn’t say, but it wasn’t being carried for self defense He had bought it at a gun store and it was brand new, and he had not had a chance to fire it yet. After getting out of the hospital he went to the police station with the receipt from the store to get his gun back and, well you know what happened after that.And yes he is going to sue the city police dept. for violating, at the very least, his 4th admendment right. FYI Mr. Boggs is a 70 yr. old, retired Army SGT. so I’m guessing he know’s about handling & carrieing a firearm, sorry if I ruined some of your idiotic assumption’s.

Hillbilly Deluxe

August 27th, 2009
12:57 pm

Where were everyone that is so outraged against this when the Susan Smith (also in North Carolina) says she was car jacked by an African-American

That happened in South Carolina; a different state than North Carolina.

I had a relative who was killed in a car wreck back in the 60’s. The Deputy’s found a pistol in the glove box and carried it with them when they went to notify the next of kin. The Deputy said “I wanted to make sure y’all got this and it didn’t get stolen at the salvage yard”. My how times have changed.

clyde

August 27th, 2009
4:04 pm

Ric Wiley,
Thanks for the information.

William Tipton

August 27th, 2009
4:41 pm

“Just dropping a line to stop all the assumptions about this story, because we all know what happens when we ass-u-me. I listen to the NRA NEWS station daily, and they interveiwed Mr. Boggs on Wed.. He was not carrying the gun for any purpose, he had just bought the gun in July and had not been to the range yet to fire it, not sure why it was in the car, he didn’t say, but it wasn’t being carried for self defense He had bought it at a gun store and it was brand new, and he had not had a chance to fire it yet. After getting out of the hospital he went to the police station with the receipt from the store to get his gun back and, well you know what happened after that.And yes he is going to sue the city police dept. for violating, at the very least, his 4th admendment right. FYI Mr. Boggs is a 70 yr. old, retired Army SGT. so I’m guessing he know’s about handling & carrieing a firearm, sorry if I ruined some of your idiotic assumption’s.
=====================================
I figured there was more to the story.
Never assume someone is a liar unless given good reason to….

owlafaye

August 27th, 2009
5:13 pm

clyde: “To a cop a citizen is just another suspect.The days when a cop was friendly and helpful are long past.The less you have to do with poice today,the better off you are.George Boggs knows this now……………you are OH SO RIGHT. Get to know your sheriff, not the town cops.

Yankee

August 27th, 2009
6:32 pm

So Bob, what ya paying for health ins. these days? How bout a story on the deal you gave yourselves?

Jim

August 27th, 2009
7:15 pm

@Eric: Why carry a jack and spare tire around in your car? The odds are you won’t get a flat on the way home from work.

Unless you’re going out looking for nails to run over…

fed up w/Yankee

August 27th, 2009
7:28 pm

Bob gets no benefits from his service as a congressman. All those great perks were eliminated by that revolutionary class ‘94. No retirement, no health insurance, no travel perks – nothing! He pays over $500 a month to his wife’s employer to cover what they do not pay for her and for coverage for him.

mpercy

August 27th, 2009
9:23 pm

Here’s some details (you too could google for 30s to find this)

George Boggs thought he was doing police a favor last week when he handed over the firearm he kept in his car after he was in a wreck.

Boggs has a permit to carry a concealed weapon, and he wanted his handgun secured while he went to the hospital, he said. The permit requires him to notify police of his weapon.

On Monday, when he went to the Fayetteville Police Department to retrieve his gun, he couldn’t get it back. He was told that police first wanted to fire the gun to see if the spent shell casing and round would match data in a nationwide ballistics inventory used to solve crimes.

The gun is scheduled to be test-fired today, he was told.

Boggs complained to police supervisors that his new gun has never been fired. The ballistics test, he said, would diminish the value of the .45-caliber Taurus Millennium he bought last month for $399 at a local gun store.

He said the city is violating his Fourth Amendment rights that protect him from unreasonable searches and seizures.

Police defend their decade-old policy of checking most handguns that come into their custody – no matter the reason – to see if they have been used in a crime. They say public safety outweighs any inconvenience to the owner.

Boggs said he did nothing wrong. He was not arrested. The gun was not taken from a crime scene. The other driver in the Aug. 14 accident was cited, a police report says.

“If they can get away with this, then they can get away with other things,” he said.

Boggs, 70, is a retired Army sergeant first class who is running for City Council this fall against incumbent Robert Massey in District 3. He said his fight over the police policy is not politically motivated.

Sgt. John Somerindyke said in situations such as this, police can’t assume a weapon has never been used.

“We have to be consistent with our policy,” he said. “We have had some hits doing this.”

Somerindyke said that since 2003, the ballistics tests have identified 32 guns that were used in crimes in Cumberland County.

Since 1999, the Police Department has sent most handguns taken into custody to the Cumberland County Sheriff’s Office, where the ballistics examination is done free for law enforcement agencies. The information is entered into the Integrated Ballistics Identification System, which is like a database of fingerprints for guns. Shell casings recovered at crime scenes can be matched with guns previously entered into the database.

Since January, the police agency has sent 331 guns and 315 shell casings and rounds to the Sheriff’s Office for testing.

Boggs said he is talking with officials at the National Rifle Association about his situation. A representative of the NRA could not be reached for comment this week.

Tiffanie Sneed, the Police Department’s lawyer, said the gun-testing policy helps make the community safer. People sometimes buy guns not knowing they have been used in crimes. The weapons are returned to their owners if the tests show they were not used in crimes, she said.

“Due to the gravity of the subject matter, we don’t deviate from this policy, as long as the weapon meets the IBIS criteria,” she said.

Boggs said others with concealed-weapon permits could be less likely to tell police they have a gun, for fear of it being taken and tested.

According to Debbie Tanna, a Sheriff’s Office spokeswoman, all firearms are tested at the factory before being sent to dealers. Bernard Barr, who helps manage Guns Plus in Spring Lake, said he doesn’t believe that’s true. Some manufacturers don’t test weapons before shipping them, he said. That includes the Taurus Millennium model that Boggs bought, he said.

Barr said firing a new weapon for ballistics doesn’t necessarily lower its value.

Barr said he personally has no qualms with the police testing weapons seized as evidence – but not guns voluntarily surrendered for safe-keeping.

“It’s like taking DNA from every citizen,” he said. “Why investigate something that is not a crime? It just doesn’t make sense.”

DAVNRA

August 28th, 2009
5:01 am

As a CCW permit holder, NRA Pistol Instructor, a NC Concealed Carry Instructor, retired U.S. Army Military Police Sergeant and former Deputy Sheriff in NC, I am surprised at Mr. Boggs’ actions and attitude. 1) All firearms to my knowledge are factory test fired and handguns of recent times come with an expended shell casing. 2) I encourage (very strongly)( not required by law) that the CCW student bring to class/range the handgun they intend to carry for self-defense. All my former students are aware that proficiency and training under classroom environment, coped with the proper attitude can serve them well should they even have to discharge a firearm in self-defense. Civil liability is another issue. As an NC resident in a state that has an open-carry law, I would have left my firearm locked in my vehicle, preferably the trunk before entering the hospital. The law in NC requires a CCW permit holder to inform police if an officer approaches you (the operative words here are approaches you) that you are a permit holder and are currently armed. You are not required to walk up to an officer and just give him/her the firearm. I walk by police officers all the time while armed and they never know it. I am not required to tell them unless they approach me. That means if I am pulled over in my vehicle or a police officer approaches me on foot. This law does not apply if I am on my own property, I can carry it concealed at home and not inform anyone that I am armed, police officers included.
I am a second shift worker and I was standing on my front porch last night after work when I distinctly heard (2) shots. They were close and sounded like a large caliber pistol. I had my .45 Defender on my side and I stepped into my house to retrieve and load one of my .30 cal Rifle, M-1 a.k.a. M1 Garand. My oldest daughter called 911. When the officer arrived I flagged him down and informed him that I was the complainant and the direction the sounds emanated from. Once he checked it out and returned to my front yard. He noticed the 8 round clip hanging in my blue jeans pocket and inquired. I told him that when I investigate shots fired near my house I come out with a rifle and handgun for backup. The shotgun remains my inside primary defense firearm. I did not let the officer see my rifle when he first arrived, I did not know his attitude in advance and I would hate to shoot an officer while I am standing on my property legally armed and get fired upon. I would instinctively return fire and it would get really ugly from a legal standpoint from there forward, I know, I know someone will take the officers side and say that I should not be outside in such a situation. Most of my adult life was spent in law enforcement and for me to be armed in shaky situations is as natural as rain to me. In a situation where I called the incident in and standing on my property “NO” one is going to put me, a Disabled Veteran, that has a real bad time getting up off of the ground; on the ground on my own property. Say what you will but I will use force to resist an unlawful detention and/or arrest. The law (mostly case law) provides for that type of resistance. Up to and including resisting to a point where and officer loses their life in the process. Down believe me: Google resist unlawful arrests.
I informed the office that should I hear gunfire from his direction, I would be responding to help and not to fire on me. He thanked me and checked another street in the neighborhood and found nothing. He thanked me and left; this occurred in the early morning hours of August 27, 2009 in Fayetteville, NC I almost forgot the link to lawful resist to unlawful arrests. http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm
One last comment: I am not a spring chicken; however, I have a lot of fight left in me. I will not be a victim of criminals in the form of criminals or in the form of law enforcement officers. I will go out of my way to assist a fellow officer and I will draw a line that they may not cross. I do not use illegal drugs and I am not involved in any criminal activity; therefore, should the police mistakenly ever try to breach my locked and barred doors, it will be an ugly sight indeed. The stories you read about where officers raid the wrong house, kill the dog or the 81 year old female resident will not happen on my property. This is not the bragging or ranting of an uneducated fool, but a patriot that took an oath many years ago to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America from “ALL” enemies, foreign and domestic, I have blown my steam and feel better, but I have not lost my patriotism or courage…

Stratta

August 28th, 2009
7:48 am

If someone wants to take one of your guns give them the bullets first!

fang 1944 buddy

August 28th, 2009
9:10 am

Julie

August 28th, 2009
9:32 am

Good grief. Neither of my two pistols came with a spent casing or anything other than case, pistol, and magazine. Which doesn’t mean some don’t come with one, just that not all do. While all guns coming off the line may have been test fired, a collectible gun may not have been fired in a long time, and collectors are weird–that kind of thing can matter to a future purchaser. Who said the gun was for self protection? He may just have been transporting it from the point of sale or similar and had the bad luck to have a car accident. This kind of incident doesn’t happen every day, anyway, so don’t quote BS about odds.

What offends me is not just the police, but the ordinary citizens who think that if they don’t like somebody else having some item or don’t like somebody else doing some specific legal thing that it’s okay for the police to casually inflict whatever indignities they please on the other guy.

Freedom means other people get to do things you don’t like, and they get to do them without being harassed by the police.

Julie

August 28th, 2009
9:41 am

In case some of the obnoxious folks didn’t get the point: none of us do everything on our neighbors’ list of pet peeves, but every single one of us has some liking, preference, quirk or attribute near and dear to our hearts that a majority of our fellow citizens just loathes.

If we outlaw every pet peeve that has a majority against it, we all end up living in a society that is stiflingly oppressive, with the laws enforced by petty jackboots–because in such a society, petty jackboots are the only people who are able to stomach a law enforcement job.

People who are fine with this guy’s property rights being abused, just because they don’t like what he does, don’t want to be harassed by the cops for their own quirks. They just want to be the some pigs who are more equal than others. (Orwell, Animal Farm) Life doesn’t work that way. When you abuse the other guy, you shoot yourself in the butt over your own cherished, obnoxious little habits.

Bob

August 28th, 2009
1:04 pm

My really nice gold cross pen was stolen off the student desk I was using while going through the police academy.

Alex

August 28th, 2009
2:02 pm

Hey, welcome to post 9-11 America. A place where the Fourth Amendment is a casuality of the War on Drugs and the War on Terror (or “terrrr” as Dubya pronounced it). Nowadays, everyone is guilty until proven innocent. Mr. Boggs should be proud and happy to have the opportunity to have his precious Roscoe proven innocent and to show what a fine, upstanding citizen he is. What’s he whining about anyway?
It does seem a little odd that Mr. Boggs carries a gun he doesn’t want fired. What does he do if he is attacking by a gang of pot smoking terrorists? He can’t shoot them because then his gun would be all dirty and not as valuable. A conundrum indeed.

CM

August 28th, 2009
2:13 pm

“the police said, sorry, we’ve sent it out for ballistics testing and can’t give it back to you yet.”

This could be just a stall technique. The gun may not have made it into official police storage.

Meanwhile, the police unit is trying to figure out how to get the gun turned in by one or their officers, belatedly and unofficially. Then, the unit will conveniently happen to find it, avoiding the need to discipline whoever didn’t turn it in. The unit will give it back to Mr. Boggs, and hope he drops the issue or “where was it”; avoiding any follow-up investigation, the potential discipline of one or more officers, and whatever other bad press would come from this event.

CM

August 28th, 2009
2:28 pm

What should Mr. Boggs have done?

Was there a tow-truck driver, who took possession of Mr. Boggs car while we went to the hospital? What rules apply to the tow–truck driver for protection of the car owner’s personal property, and should they be the same rules applied to police unit’s temporarily storing personal property?

Similar question for hospital policy and rules. Would they have a secure place for high value personal positions, say for at least 6 hours (or the duration of being unconscious in an operating room) until hospital staff can turn over aid possessions to a relative, or other person(s) designated by the admittee?

Future CCW courses will likely need to comment on events like this.

Nuther-Steve

August 28th, 2009
3:21 pm

Actually, I know of several hospitals that have a secure lockup area just for that purpose. Just like several court houses.

Not stupid quarter grabber public lockers, either. Actual keyed compartments located within the security/cops office, and a login-logout process.

Nuther-Steve

August 28th, 2009
3:39 pm

Take a look at Washington State RCW 9.41.300

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.300

=====================
-chop-
…In addition, the local legislative authority shall provide either a stationary locked box sufficient in size for pistols and key to a weapon owner for weapon storage, or shall designate an official to receive weapons for safekeeping, during the owner’s visit to restricted areas of the building. The locked box or designated official shall be located within the same building used in connection with court proceedings. The local legislative authority shall be liable for any negligence causing damage to or loss of a weapon either placed in a locked box or left with an official during the owner’s visit to
restricted areas of the building.

-chop-

(7) Subsection (1)(a) of this section does not apply to a person licensed pursuant to RCW 9.41.070 who, upon entering the place or facility, directly and promptly proceeds to the administrator of the facility or the administrator’s designee and obtains written permission to possess the firearm while on the premises or checks his or her firearm. The person may reclaim the firearms upon leaving but must immediately and directly depart from the place or facility…
=====================

Might be an example for people to point to for getting legislation in other states that actually protect the gun owner/CWP..

[...] One Gun He’ll Never See Again 28 08 2009 Bob Barr, writing in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution: Police Run Roughshod Over Lawful Handgun [...]

Dave

August 29th, 2009
9:21 am

Interesting that the police would think a gun that has never been fired might have been used in a crime.

Doug Stewart

August 29th, 2009
10:10 am

Over the past two years, I have purchased several new rifles and pistols (.22cal Mag, 9mm, .223cal, and now, this Ruger LCP .380). However, the only one that included a test-fired cartridge was the Ruger LCP which I recently bought on 8/21/09 to keep in my van (I have a CHP).

The police department acted illegally in testing this weapon without cause, and should be sued. Police today are slow learners, and need to lose big in order to better learn about the Second Amendment.

Wade Onin

August 29th, 2009
12:34 pm

In the newspaper article about this incident, posted above by mpercy, gun store manager Bernard Barr gets it right when he says he personally has no qualms with the police testing weapons seized as evidence – but not guns voluntarily surrendered for safe-keeping.
Also according to that story, 32 guns they’ve tested have been determined to have been used in a crime.
That’s great. But the glaring omission in this story is, how many of those 32 guns had been legally seized as evidence, and how many were voluntarily given to police for safekeeping because the gun’s owner was injured in a car wreck or some other non-gun, non-crime related emergency?
Clearly, Boggs’ rights were violated 1) when the police didn’t immediately return the firearm upon request, and 2) when the police tested the gun.
Really, even if all 32 gun matches were from firearms voluntarily given to police for safekeeping, all 32 of those court cases should be thrown out or overturned on constitutional grounds.

Jeff Cannon

August 29th, 2009
3:25 pm

Eric wrote on 26 Aug / 5:12 pm: “….Why carry a gun at all? The odds are incredibly low you’d get shot or have an occasion to shoot another person anyway….”
Well, Eric, you should do your homework before braying like a jackass. According to DOJ and FBI records uncovered by the highly credible scientist John Lott, legally armed citizens prevent crimes from occurring at least one million times a year in the USA–without firing a shot. On two occasions over 30 years ago I prevented several intoxicated, angry, would-be assailants from doing me harm simply by showing them I was armed. Their ringleaders later apologized.

Considering the pressure for pro-homosexual courses in schools and the upcoming requirement for all Americans to carry government-approved health insurance, perhaps it’s time to mandate training in firearm handling and safety in all schools. The NRA Basic Rifle course, with some instruction blocks covering handguns and shotguns, would be just the ticket. Imagine living in a nation with fewer laws, less leftist histrionics and more reliance on individual responsibility!!

TNinfidel

August 29th, 2009
4:01 pm

Never, ever trust the police. They are mostly corrupt.

TNinfidel

August 29th, 2009
4:04 pm

An example of a fine law enforcement officer – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIKPKjl0-pg

Alan Gordon

August 30th, 2009
12:29 pm

Do you remember the bumper sticker” You can have my weapon, when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers”
If you dont like guns, weapons, pistols and knives then go to Masschusetts and have fellowship with the Kennedys(or what is left of them or you could move to Kalifornia) and other surviving politicians. But remember this, you don’t want to be the one to collect all the guns and what not from the Southern Rednecks as they will not give them up willfully.I will not be left defenseless against criminals or terrorists because of a political moron. Have a nice day

crowe N.C. resident

August 30th, 2009
1:09 pm

The law BROKE the law. Take them to court!

[...] police said, sorry, we

Phil

August 31st, 2009
9:28 am

That’s why you don’t give your property to the government, police or politicians. They steal, cheat, lie, and take your stuff. They don’t know the constitution, so why would they abide by it? And even though some may know, there is no accountability for them. Just us. By the way, I’m not speaking about all police or all politicians. There are a few that are good.

gaynell plummer

September 1st, 2009
9:38 pm

there will come a day when we will all be scrambling to get our weapons. Seems to me folks are so involved in themselves that they don’t see their world getting smaller and smaller. Police and the agencies that are suppose to protect us have all gone over the top and have abandoned structure and forgotten that they are servants of the people. There is far to much power in all the hands of the wrong and sometimes dangerous agencies. WAKE UP PEOPLE

Well Said Bob Barr

September 8th, 2009
9:24 am

Bob, I like your column, and agree 100% with you about the illegal manner in which Mr. Bogg’s gun has been withheld.

I don’t know how a clear-thinking patriot such as yourself can deal such bone-headed speculations and comments from “the public” who obviously have no gun ownership experience or knowledge of guns.

Do what you can to get O’merica back on track quickly with the US Constitution for a long future as a Republic, the Land of the Free, and Home of the Brave.

PS – the O’czars have to go! Their power is unconstitutional.

Travis Hamlin

October 7th, 2009
6:06 pm

Bob,

Before you call the man stupid for giving his gun the the police Consider this,
I had a wreck 3 years ago when someone ran a stop sign and rolled my truck. The windows broke out and my handgun flew out on the street in its case. I was unable to get out of my truck and retreave it. I ask a man to get my gun and give it to the police when they got there because I was afraid it would fall into the hands of the wrong person. When the police came to the hospital I showed him my conceal carry permit and ask if the man gave him my gun. He said yes and I could pick it up when I was ready. When I was released from the hospital I went by and picked it up without any hassle from the police. However, They did unload it and that was OK with me. What I am saying is that there can be reasons to ask the police to hold one for you.

Enter your comments here

don

October 20th, 2009
11:14 pm

Some staes requaer that the manufacturer sen a spent test caltrige. whend the weapon is sold by the dealer the dealer must send the caltrige to the state forensic lab to keep in case the weapon is use in a crime. Loke it up!

Alan Hawkins

January 15th, 2010
11:24 am

doesn’t surprise me.. im fighting wake county sheriff’s over gun permits now.. 2 arrests in 85′, no convictions and the officer in charge has told me he thinks arkansas’ judicial system “dropped the ball” and is “lazy”.. I love being reprosecuted by a desk seargent 25 years after the fact and having my rights trampled on..

Lin Miller

May 9th, 2010
1:44 pm

The message and moral of the story is clear and we should actually be thankful. Never trust the government and forget about doing “the right thing.” Amen

jJOE

July 15th, 2010
10:20 pm

NO FREE MAN SHALL BE DISARMED.THOMAS JEFFERSON IF YOUR A CCW AND YOU GIVE YOUR GUNS TO THE COPS TO WATCH SO THEY WONT GET STOLEN WHILE YOUR IN THE HOSPITAL BECAUSE THERE ARE LAWS NOW THAT MAKE THE GUN OWNER A CRIMINAL IF HIS GUN GETS STOLEN AND HE DOESNT REPORT IT RIGHT AWAY.HMM WHAT IF THE NC PIGS STEAL IT?