Cap-and-trade’s a lot of hot air
Americans inclined to support President Obama’s health care overhaul might want to first look at the so-called “cap-and-trade” legislation passed by the House of Representatives with the president’s support.
Its 1,200 pages must rank among the most complex and convoluted pieces of legislation ever devised, making old, Soviet-style government edicts appear streamlined by comparison.
Former President Jimmy Carter, who oversaw the last formal effort Washington undertook to mandate comprehensive energy usage, was a novice compared to the heavy-handed, global-oriented approach by Obama and his Democratic colleagues in the House. Where Carter, a generation ago, was content to turn down the thermostat and lecture the country while wearing a cardigan sweater in front of a warmly glowing fireplace, Obama uses 21st-century communications tools and offers to change not just America’s energy system, but the entire world’s — with taxpayer dollars by the trillions.
The regulatory behemoth that would be unleashed by the cap-and-trade legislation, if it were to become law, starts with a group of “experts” deciding how much carbon dioxide and other “greenhouse gases” the earth’s atmosphere can withstand. These then become the “targets” that bad-guy emitters (such as manufacturing plants) would have to meet by “buying” annual “emission permits” from Uncle Sam or on the secondary market. They could trade — that is, buy and sell — their permits to meet their target or cap; hence the term, “cap-and-trade.” The number of permits drops annually until a “safe” level of emissions is reached.
Some 85 percent of the initial offering of permits would be given to certain favored industries, states and Indian tribes. These entities, of course, could then trade them to other “polluters.” All this would be monitored and enforced by government bureaucrats.
As if this scenario would not be enough to make your eyes roll and your hands rush to grab your wallet and hold it near, there is yet another bureaucratic overlay nestled in the legislation . The bill establishes a mechanism for “polluters” to obtain two billion “offsets” that would allow them to emit more greenhouse gasses than their permits would otherwise allow. These “offsets” consist of paying for “green projects” in the U.S. or — get this — somewhere else on the globe.
Thus, a manufacturing plant in, say, Gary, Ind., that is exceeding its “permitted” expulsion of CO2, could continue to commit this sin against humanity by paying for a Brazilian farmer to plant some trees in the rain forest. A more patriotic company might achieve the same result by paying an Iowa former to implement more “Earth-friendly” farming practices. Of course, to guard against some nefarious polluter trying to cheat Uncle Sam and the world by claiming bogus “offsets,” there must be a monitoring mechanism. Enter the “Offsets Integrity Advisory Board” — yet another group of scientific “experts” that would be tasked with compiling a list of qualifying offsets around the globe.
Utility companies would be required to purchase increasing percentages of their electricity from “renewable sources,” but they could meet these mandates, at least in part, by forcing their customers to reduce their energy usage. Those customers — that is, every individual, family and business in the country — also would be forced to change building codes in order to use less energy, change lighting systems employed in homes and outdoor areas, and buy more expensive “energy-efficient” appliances.
This discussion barely scratches the surface of the Byzantine system of mandates and favors that would be doled out by the government if this legislation reaches Obama’s desk. The cost is impossible to calculate, except to know it will be in the trillions of dollars. For a plan based on bad science and proposing to implement a model that’s already failed in Europe, that’s a price no responsible American ought to accept. But, how can you put a pricetag on saving the world and all of mankind?
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© 2009 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
83 comments Add your comment
Copyleft
July 6th, 2009
8:58 am
Mr. Barr left something out in his comments about Carter and energy policy reform–namely, the fact that he was 100% RIGHT. And after three decades of pretending otherwise, we’re now facing a much worsened problem requiring much more intensive effort to fix.
Glad to see Obama’s taking the energy crisis seriously. Too many administrations since Carter have acted like our oil addiction is both inevitable and sustainable.
Cbirn
July 6th, 2009
9:14 am
Get real, Copyleft. Have you read the bill? You can’t mandate science. Scientific advances happen as they do – “requiring” magical new energy sources doesn’t solve anything, it just throws money away.
Rob
July 6th, 2009
9:22 am
Perhaps if you wern’t in such a hurry to declare Then President Crater a buffoon and actually did something constructive at that time we would not be facing this overreaching legislation in our time.
Go back to your Gingrich world of “insert belittling words” and wait. It will cool off sooner or later.
whatever
July 6th, 2009
9:26 am
glad to see that its going to be government scientists that determine these mandates. you know, the same ones whose hard work blows up the space shuttle, has to redo their computer algorithms three times to fit actual temperature conditions, that say inflating a tire can save the world, that are now in the MINORITY on global warming. yeah, those guys.
God help us all.
retiredds
July 6th, 2009
9:30 am
Dear Bob, as is customary with those of you who disagree with Obama’s policies, about all you can do is complain. As Copyleft has stated, years of pushing off energy reform has placed the United States in the position of next-to-no options. This is also true of Social Security, healthcare, and transportation. Bob, you and your Republican and Libertarian friends have had ample time to formulate and initiate solutions that work. You have wasted our time with wanting to go back to a time that never existed in this country. So continue to rant on as the new generation and the world pass you by.
steve
July 6th, 2009
9:30 am
its sad when people believe we are causing global warming. if i recall its a natural cycle, dont give yourself so much credit
Californication
July 6th, 2009
9:34 am
CopyLeft, you are living proof that the public school systems are failing us. Obozo’s policy makes us more dependent on foreign oil, not more independent; exactly opposite of what we need. Cap and Tax is just the way that they want to tax everybody, where is my tax cut for 95% of us? Giving me a $400 a year tax cut then taxing energy by 1900% does not equate to a tax cut, but a tax increase. Carter was a loser and Obozo is already making Carter look good, how sad. It is time our politicians to stop worrying what the rest of the world is doing and worry about America. We are not “Citizens of the World” we are Americans that need representation that understands that. Vote out ALL incumbents and let’s put in libertarian representation.
Californication
July 6th, 2009
9:38 am
Just a thought, when you have 80,000 people in a sporting event don’t they give off lots of C02, how long till the Obozo administration tries to tax sporting events under Cap and Tax?
Watchtower Headlines – July 6, 2009 « All Along The Watchtower
July 6th, 2009
9:50 am
[...] an unabridged dictionary. NJ Republicans give energy bill a boost The Star-Ledger – NJ.com Cap-and-trade’s a lot of hot air Atlanta Journal [...]
Redneck Convert
July 6th, 2009
9:51 am
Well, Californication, when you have 80,000 people at a sporting event you have a UGA football game. And what they give off is alot of methane. Which UGA folks are famous for. You could pay for it by trading for credits from GA Tech where they only have 2,000 people at a game. If they’re giving free hot dogs and Cokes, that is. I hope this clears everything up for you.
Daniel
July 6th, 2009
9:52 am
Forcing pro-green policy no matter how much it hurts us. I like many people work 3 jobs and can hardly afford support my family as it is and now they want to make our utility bills higher. Typical elitist, socialist ideals that have failed time and time again. The planet as been here for a long time, it will continue to function no matter what we do. Get over yourselves.
Rom. 1:21-22
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
Jim Callihan
July 6th, 2009
10:00 am
Run a net search on Carol Browner. She is the “behind the scenes/under the radar” common thread to “all things environmental” since Clinton appointed her. She is a master “shake-down artist” that could rival any extortion scheme.
While living in Florida before and after her tenure there, while also working for the “environmental restoration” industry, I saw her for what she really is – a revenue producing FRAUD. Her idea of “protecting wetlands” had far more to do with generating untold millions for the State of Florida from developers, than it did to stop building in sensitive watersheds.
“SS-DD”.
Steven Chu (the next “Bernanke” – clueless academiac to destroy his “department”) could not be better served at the Energy Department, than having Browner’s extortion manual at his disposal.
Un-frikkin-believable…
booger
July 6th, 2009
10:06 am
This bill has a few hidden surprises also, like new entitlement programs. Page 1193 of the bill creates a program where people who are earning up to 150% of the poverty level will get direct payments from the government to offset extra costs brought on by cap-and-trade. Page 1209 increases earned income credit payments. So people who now pay no fed. income tax will now have their EIC increased plus get a brand new entitlement payment from uncle sam. Neither of these things have anything to do with polution.
This basically is a worldwide income redistribution scheme.
Scott
July 6th, 2009
10:12 am
No one mentions the fact that with the passing of this bill, government inspectors will need to inspect your home prior to you being ALLOWED to sell it, to insure it meets code. So let’s say you bought an older home you have 20 years left on your mortgage when you loose your job and can no longer afford to make the payments. As a responsible American you decide to sell your home and to move into something more “economically friendly” for you and your family….. But wait your home doesn’t meet code and needs $20,000 worth of upgrades before you are ALLOWED to sell your home. However, due to your financial misfortune you can’t afford the upgrades. You are now faced with bankruptcy and possibly foreclosure, even though you are trying to so the responsible thing and sell your home, if this legislation passes.
http://www.gettingourcountryback.org
Christopher Booth Newman
July 6th, 2009
10:13 am
Enter your comments here
tj
July 6th, 2009
10:29 am
from reading these blogs, I have come to the conlusion, Democrats are ignorant, and Republicans are manipulators. We need a third party to dethrone the two political powers so that a Free America will exist… Please people, Republicans and Democrats are working together to take away our freedoms and you are all taking the bait!!!
RC
July 6th, 2009
10:32 am
I am not a fan of big government. However, any economist will tell you that a free markets weakness is externalities and pollution is the worst of externalities. When a company pollutes it is a cost that everyone bears except the company that pollutes.
I can build a Widget making plant and sell my widgets for a big profit. I burn coal at my Widget Plant and everyone down wind gets sick. Yet the cost of sickness to society (or the neighborhood) is not a cost my Widget Plant accounts for or is held liable for mitigating.
People say that there is no evidence that pollution is bad. What? Park your car in your garage and close the door. Sit in your garage with the car idling and let it burn just 1/10 of a gallon of gas. You will then be able to have a discussion with the creator about pollution…
Now I do not agree that this should be an additional source of revenue for the government. We should tax pollution and use the revenue to offset payroll tax. It blows my mind that we tax the very source of what increases America’s standard of living, the productivity of people and businesses (politicians call this income…)
Christopher Booth Newman
July 6th, 2009
10:38 am
I understand that President Obama has proposed adopting and expanding the bovine tax (which is already in effect in the socialist nations of Western Europe) in the United States to include human beings, sheep, horses, pigs, chickens, dogs and cats. This new tax shall cover all 50 states but will exclude the District of Columbia, Senate and Congressional representatives and their staff –and of course the White House, members of the Obama cabinet and the national news-media. This new tax money will be used to promote healthier vegetarian diets, introduction into mandatory eugenic selection processes and the elimination of all unnecessary and deleterious animals –especially cows, sheep, horses, pigs and dogs. All of these measure will eliminate the effects of gaseous global warming and also help to reduce the 10 to 12 Trillion dollar national debt -and monies already given away to Obama supporters, spent or proposed by President Obama and the progressive Democrats and liberal Republicans in Congress. Standard “gas taxes” will be: $10.00 per week for every man and woman over the age of 10 years, $5.00 per week for (every) cow, sheep, horse,pig and large dog, $3.00 per week for small dogs and $2.00 per week for cats. Chickens and domesticated ducks and geese shall be taxed at $1.00 per bird, per week. We in the “Mother Earth Committee of the Eastern Shore – for Green Peace and Social Justice” strongly urge that everyone support this new legislation that the “Flatulence Czar”, Barney Frank, shall direct. Help President Obama bring hope and change and “fairness” to the New America and the New World Order!
booger
July 6th, 2009
10:49 am
This whole program is just a revenue producing and income redistribution scheme. If you want to reduce pollution, you go to the source. The large majority of pollution comes from utility companies and cars trucks ect. This is a big problem, but a manageable one. You don’t create a convoluted unmanagable scheme such as cap-and-trade unless you have other objectives.
Obama has not done one single thing in his first few months which didn’t involve government taking control. Control financial institutions, control auto companies, control health care, control of anyone who recieved stimulus money. Cap-and-trade is a means of further government control of every business and many individual activities.
Watching all this happen while many cheer it on is amazing.
pat
July 6th, 2009
10:50 am
Pretty much right on Mr. Barr. It is the worst piece of legislation I have even seen. It only beats the “Spending Bill” because it exceeds it in scope.
I am astounded at how stupid people can be. This cannot pass the senate or we will be in recession for the next 10 years. You cannot spend trillions of dollars solving imaginary problems and not expect a negative impact on the economy. Somebody has to pay for it, and that is us and all we get is screwed.
pat
July 6th, 2009
10:53 am
Copyleft, critical thinking is not your strong point is it? You cannot buy, sell and trade a non-product. Ask any economist how that works…Hell, just look at the dot-bombs of the late ’90’s, that’s a perfect example of what happens when you try to sell a ‘nothing’.
TC
July 6th, 2009
10:55 am
This story only touches on the incredible greed that is actually behind this cap-and-trade legislation and the resulting private tax/speculatory paradise being instituted for the robber barons of the late 20th and now 21st centuries: Wall Street in general and Goldman Sachs in particular. Anyone with a brain should immediately read the following article and spread the word to everyone you know:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/28816321/the_great_american_bubble_machine
Unbelievable, but apparently true – the world is not fair.
booger
July 6th, 2009
10:58 am
Christopher @ 10:38
That was great.
Rmoen
July 6th, 2009
10:59 am
I’m a Democrat who doesn’t support cap and trade, and think the House overplayed its hand. I read editorials, comments and letters-to-the-editor from all over the nation. Support for cap and trade appears to be evaporating. Whereas a week ago it was maybe 2-to-1 against cap and trade, it now seems to be 10-to-1 against. The Senate will be wise to heed the overwhelming lack of public support and stop this disastrous legislation from passing into law.
There’s nothing to like about cap and trade. It will make energy more expensive — possibly big-time expensive. It will enrich a new class of financial speculator. Hundreds of lobbyists have their fingerprints all over the bill. Cap and trade will also drive-out manufacturing of every description. Plus, it’s worse than a tax because only 15% of the proceeds from auctioned permits go into our national treasury. And the kicker? We’ll never even know if cap and trade worked.
– Robert Moen, http://www.energyplanUSA.com
Mark
July 6th, 2009
11:06 am
So Bob Barr has decided that the Obama energy plan is “based on bad science.” Who has determined that the science was bad? The scientist Bob Barr? He puts the word experts in quotation marks. How “expert” is he on this issue?
Mark
July 6th, 2009
11:14 am
steve,
You “recall” that the current global warming is a natural cycle?
Joan
July 6th, 2009
11:18 am
I agree with those that say Cap and Trade is just a way to put more money in bureaucrats pockets and the need for which is based upon shaky science. It is particularly disgusting to have it considered now, when most Americans are hurting terribly financially. How can we bear any more debt burden? Perhaps Obama has hit the perfect storm for getting his ideas across. He comes at a time when we are weakened financially and intellectually–through years of bad education. Anything looks good to a sinking man.
booger
July 6th, 2009
11:19 am
Good science should stand up to scrutiny. This is why so many scientist have been hushed at the various agencies who stand to gain lots of money as long as there is this crisis called global warming.
The main problem many of the rebel scientist found with the global warming theory is that much of the data used is made up.
The EPA gives highly detailed accounts of minute global temperature changs over the last 100 years. Problem is they do not have real data. People were not taking temperature readings in Africa, S. America, Siberia, China 100 years ago. In fact other than the US and Europe, there is very little real data on what temperatures really were. Even in these countries the collection process was sloppy.
So what do you do when you don’t have data…you make some up. You run some made up numbers through a computer to give some credibility but its all made up. And if you are making up your data and you don’t like the results, you can adjust your data.
This brings a whole new meaning to “Political Science”.
Kelli
July 6th, 2009
11:38 am
I guess if you don’t agree with Obama aught to be censored? ” CEI releases global warming study censored by Obama’s EPA ”
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/CEI-releases-global-warming-study-censored-by-Obamas-EPA–49181632.html
Reality ceck
July 6th, 2009
11:46 am
Wow, with this really “hot” June – the coolest I remember in 10 yrs – thank god we’re addressing global warming. It’s a good thing too that we’re going to destroy so many jobs in the process that will put more people out of work and prevent them from generating more carbon emissions. Yea, the economy is doing poorly but that’s ok too as it ensures people will be more reliant on the government. The bigger the government the better right?
Christopher Booth Newman
July 6th, 2009
11:52 am
Our organization’s scientific beliefs are based on “feelings” too -and so we in the Mother Earth Committee for Green Peace and Social Justice (Eastern Shore) think Cap and Trade is the best solution, second only to the Universal Flatulence Tax which shall be proposed by President Obama when he returns from his vacation in Russia. (so glad that his entire family got to go with him, again!) All flatulence, which releases methane -a greenhouse gas -into the atmosphere is a planet-threatening issue that shall be addressed by the Obama Administration and the Flatulence Czar, Barney Frank!!! (see comment @ 10:38 for more specifics)
BenDoubleCrossed
July 6th, 2009
11:56 am
Germany fought WWII with gasoline made from coal. It is proven technology developed in 1917.
America is the Saudi Arabia of coal with 1/4th of the deposits on the planet. The US could eliminate American dependence on foreign oil.
And reducing America’s trade imbalance would keep money, technology and jobs here in America. It is estimated that every billion in trade deficit equals 13,000 US jobs lost. And we could quit sending billions to countries that sponsor terrorism.
But coal is rich in CO2. Isn’t the timing interesting? The world is in recession, US unemployment figures are hovering around 10% and the EPA determines CO2 is a pollutant that must be regulated.
SO WHO BENEFITS FROM CAP AND TRADE AND KEEPING AMERICAN COAL IN THE GROUND:
The United States agreed to transfer jobs and technology to developing countries under INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENT Algiers Declaration Algiers, Algeria, 4-6 March 1975
In this context, they emphasize the necessity for the full implementation of the Programme of Action adopted by the United Nations General Assembly at its VI Special Session, and accordingly they emphasize the following requirements [excerpt from full declaration]
“With regard to the depletable natural resources, as OPEC’s petroleum resources are, it is essential that the transfer of technology must be commensurate in speed and volume with the rate of their depletion, which is being accelerated for the benefit and growth of the economies of the developed countries”
A major portion of the planned or new petrochemical complexes, oil refineries and fertilizer plants be built in the territories of OPEC Member Countries with the co-operation of industrialized nations for export purposes to the developed countries with guaranteed access for such products to the markets of these countries. [Excerpt from declaration] Read sections 10 and 11]
BenDoubleCrossed
July 6th, 2009
12:01 pm
The Concept of CO2 Cap and Trade is Absurd
The real reason Cap & Trade is being foisted on the world is it creates a 3 trillion dollar commodity market for you guessed it: hot air. Finally politicians have found a way to put a price on their most abundant resource! And for politicians there is no downside as nothing has to be actually produced.
The real beneficiaries are the rich special interest who will get wealthier setting up and trading in this new commodities market. But citizens will pay more taxes to operate new regulatory bureaucracies and more for goods as business passes the cost along.
And all this is based on the premise that operating automobiles is resulting in global warming. Question: did Fred Flintstones truck fleet cause the last period of global warming or is global warming a cyclical event that is more affected by sun spot cycles. The Earth has had multiple tropical and glacial ages over the millennia. The most recent news is that the oceans of the world will be cooling for the next 25-30 years.
Furthermore, it is my understanding that the most prevalent hot house gas is water vapor. Should citizens of earth try to stop the rain cycle?
And if we are going to implement Cap and Trade who will decide what the optimal CO2 carrying capacity of Earth is?
And there are questions about how to implement financial controls and reliably audit such a system. Will every person and business on the planet be issued C02 permits? Is the permit an asset a business can liquidate when it goes out of business? If a business in California goes out of business and sells its CO2 permit to a company in England, will a new company in California have to find another seller to open his business and replace lost jobs? After all, if there is an optimal CO2 carrying capacity then an increasing population of people and businesses means a lower standard of living and reduced CO2 allotment for each new person or business.
Upon their death can Mom and Dad leave their CO2 permits to their children? Should Mom and Dad be limited to having two children?
What about the countries that do not subscribe to Cap & Trade. Will multi-national companies export new construction and jobs to 3rd world non-subscribing countries? And the flipside, will the people of the Amazon miss out on new opportunities because an American company bought 1000s of acres to be left unused to acquire carbon sequestration credits.
Jefferson
July 6th, 2009
12:19 pm
Get over it. If it doesn’t work, modifications will be instore. NOTHING starts out finished.
booger
July 6th, 2009
12:21 pm
The kinds of questions being raised here are exactly the issues a responsible news media should investigate. Instead, they are still crawling all over Alaska looking for dirt on Palin, and lined up for a chance to cover M. Jackson’s funeral.
I believe in the future we will see the media’s infatuation with all things Obama, and the lack of critical investigative journalism, will prove to be the fatal flaw in the destruction of the American way of life and business. That same way of life and business which has attracted immigrants to this country for hundreds of years.
Northern Sympathizer
July 6th, 2009
12:42 pm
How exactly is the idea of Climate Change “bad science” when all of the professionals who study climate change are in agreement that CO2 gas is increasing in the atmosphere and the effects of global warming are as observable as they are. The arctic shelf can be observed to be receding and the temperatures of the sea have been measured to be increasing. WHEN will republicans get on the bus on this issue? Americans under 40 believe in this and they VOTE. Or maybe republicans find the political wilderness comfy?
Mark Brant
July 6th, 2009
12:45 pm
One of the many things wrong with this legislation is that it takes one more aspect of our everyday lives and places it in the hands of a largely ineffective institution that has no money of its own but that which can be taken by whatever means from the hardworking tax paying people of this country. We must stop thinking that this world is ours-it is not- it is God’s we are stewards of what He provides. It will cease to exist when He says so and not one day sooner. The science is simply no there for the Utopia that these politicians would like us to ‘Believe” in. Keep funding every little environmental cause, planned parenthood, stem-cell research and on and on and one day you will awaken and we’ll all be like CA-BROKE and looking for a hand out. Look for headlines like: “Admin decides to abandon CEO pay limits”, “We’re not really interested in running the banks, or defunct auto companies…” while they are of course doing just that. Look for BHO to travel to Russia and other third world powers so that he doesn’t have to listen to the growing chorus singing about his incompetence. This is Jimmy Carter all over again:Flood the economy with fake money, bring about a slight pause in the fears about collapse…then drive up interest rates, tax the hell out of everyone and spend money on more foolish empty headed and dead end causes. When everyone has had a good dose of this useless medicine BYE BYE! I’ll be back to remind you that I told you so!
booger
July 6th, 2009
12:51 pm
Jefferson,
Hope it works better than the stimulus plan. Anyway, I see you subscibe to the philosophy of planning “ready, fire, Aim”.
Jefferson
July 6th, 2009
1:00 pm
If it wasn’t for the stimulus plan, the state of Ga would be broke(or broker-even more state employees laid off or paycuts), remember the bailout?
If you are not moving foward, you are backing up, nothing stays the same.
I’m not a know-it-all, unlike many of the bloggers here. Roll with the changes, things will get better or worse.
theantibush
July 6th, 2009
1:03 pm
“.. starts with a group of “experts””
This is completely at odds with the repub convention of using novices.
“These “offsets” consist of paying for “green projects” in the U.S. or — get this — somewhere else on the globe.”
Last time I checked the globe was connected to the USA. Get that.
“Thus, a manufacturing plant in, say, Gary, Ind., that is exceeding its “permitted” expulsion of CO2, could continue to commit this sin against humanity by paying for a Brazilian farmer to plant some trees in the rain forest.”
Cry me an Amazon river.
“Of course, to guard against some nefarious polluter trying to cheat Uncle Sam and the world by claiming bogus “offsets,” there must be a monitoring mechanism. Enter the “Offsets Integrity Advisory Board” — yet another group of scientific “experts”..”
Its only natural for the party of the ignorant to chafe at the notion of people much smarter than they are. So much easier for the incompetent when the gov is guided by voices.
“Utility companies would be required to purchase increasing percentages of their electricity from “renewable sources, but they could meet these mandates, at least in part, by forcing their customers to reduce their energy usage. Those customers — that is, every individual, family and business in the country — also would be forced to change building codes in order to use less energy, change lighting systems employed in homes and outdoor areas, and buy more expensive “energy-efficient” appliances.”
Not to mention that energy efficiency pays off in the long term…but long term and ignorance do not go hand in hand…hence the ‘problem’.
“For a plan based on bad science..”
Oh now real science is bad…well, that’s always been the case with the incompetent.
Joanne600
July 6th, 2009
1:04 pm
Northern Sympathizer wrote: “How exactly is the idea of Climate Change “bad science” when all of the professionals who study climate change are in agreement that CO2 gas is increasing in the atmosphere and the effects of global warming are as observable as they are. The arctic shelf can be observed to be receding and the temperatures of the sea have been measured to be increasing.”
All the professionals who study climate change are in agreement? All means, well, ALL. Guess you forgot about the 30,000 American scientists who have proclaimed, “There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth’s atmosphere and disruption of the Earth’s climate.” Meanwhile the Arctic shelf continues to expand rather than shrink: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Global-Warming/Antarctic-ice-growing-not-shrinking-/articleshow/4418558.cms
I’m for the Personal Methane Reclamation program. That one will definitly work if we can get all of DC to participate. Cap & Trade is nothing more than a massive attempt at wealth redistribution and it’s regressive to boot. So much for the little people.
booger
July 6th, 2009
1:04 pm
Northern 12;42
All professionals who study this are not in agreement. This is why these agencies have placed a gag order on all their scientist who don’t agree. Also, the icecaps are once again growing and the tempurature of the ocean fluctuates. Always has. This is what causes el nino conditions. This is not something you mortgage our future to fix.
By the way, NOAA admitted they had greatly overestimated the icecap shrinking for some time. The had not calibrated some of their satalite equipment correctly. This was brought to light when some sailors from iceland tried to take a route which NOAA said was ice free, and they hit ice.
esotericx10
July 6th, 2009
1:24 pm
I see we have dinosaurs blathering about a mythical left/right paradigm involving liberals and conservatives on this page. I guess they’re in a coma regarding the reality that it is globalists that are now running the show in Washington, and that they (the globalists) sit on both sides of the aisle. If you think I’m full of hot air look up “Agenda 21″, “Codex Alimentarius”, “Sustainable Development” “Security & Prosperity Partnership”, “North American Union” to name just a few of the draconian policies that are currently being implemented.
The threats we are facing are probably much greater than you can imagine. The oil industry is a 200 trillion dollar business. Washington has pandered to the oil cartel for decades. The oil cartel in turn has gone to great lengths to suppress any viable alternative energy technologies that have emerged over the last century. Stanley Meyer invented a car that ran on hydrogen cells, when he wouldn’t sell out he was murdered. Another man who had invented a viable technology was dragged into court when he tried to patent his invention under the allegation that his invention was a threat to national security. They didn’t stop there, they trumped up a bunch of fraud charges against him. Even though he was eventually absolved of all charges,he was left bankrupt, and his laboratory equipment, notes and research papers were never returned to him. The rule of thumb is first they’ll threaten you, if you don’t succumb to that, then they’ll try to buy you out or ruin you some other way. If that doesn’t work they’ll kill you. If you bother to take the time to do some research, you’ll discover that what I’ve just said is true.
If you think this government in Washington works for you, then you’re dumber than a door knob. Just look at this recent bailout fiasco. This was a case of the criminals in Washington creating the circumstances that allowed and facilitated their criminal cronies on Wall Street to reach into the pockets of every tax payer in America to the tune of trillions. Americans will be paying for this for generations to come.
There isn’t enough space here for me to say all that needs to be said. If you want a real education, I would strongly urge you to avail yourself of the material found on this site. http://www.911keystone-to-tyranny.webs.com If you do, you’re going to be in for quite a rude awakening.
One last comment. If you can’t “smell” that there is something drastically wrong in America by now, then you’re probably hopelessly brain dead, and I can guarantee you’re going to get exactly what you deserve for your willful ignorance.
gatorman770
July 6th, 2009
1:43 pm
One of the main things that chaps my buns about the hysterical world global warming “Owl” Gore movement is that some relatively young nations such as the US who’s economies have grown to what it is today because of their (our) form of governments will have to suffer and shrink, while nations such as India, China, African nations, etc., who’s civilizations have been around for tens of thousands of years will now get to spew as much CO2 polution as the want with no limit, cap and trade BS requirements, etc. because they are suddenly “developing nations”. We have already lost millions of jobs to these countries and we will lose millions more if “cap and trade” is passed. The only jobs that will be made is another vast government bureacracy to force this job killing plan on the American people.
Any UN global warming accords to control global warming must apply to all nations, not just successful one’s.
Stu
July 6th, 2009
2:11 pm
Thank you esotericx10.
Now if copyleft would go back to sucking dick and stay off this blog, the world might cool off a few degrees. Freaking demopublicans.
Mark
July 6th, 2009
2:16 pm
Reality ceck:
At least you should learn the difference between weather and climate.
Les Horn
July 6th, 2009
2:29 pm
I’m all for solar, wind power, thermal recovery from sewer sludge and many other types of waste
that is a great source of fuel. The very big problem with CAP and TRADE(TAX) is the government
costs too much to implement.
CAP and TRADE(TAX) is ENRON forced onto everyone.
CAP and TRADE(TAX) places the entire U.S. economy on the shoulders of manipulation and speculation within the Chicago Climate Exchange(CCX)
CAP and TRADE(TAX) lowers the standsrd of living on the middle class and raises taxes on small
PRIVATE sector business.
The rich will get richer (CCX) and the poor will get free government grants to pay their high manipulated energy bills.
CAP and TRADE(TAX) creates a hugh slush fund for congress to divvy up amongst themselves.
CAP and TRADE(TAX) is the most damaging plan for middle class America and small private sector
business.
CAP and TRADE(TAX) is a perfect plan for an out of control government.
Just say no to CAP and TRADE(TAX)!
Concerned Citizen
July 6th, 2009
2:40 pm
“Manufacturing & Technology eJournal Poll Shows Clean Energy Act Could Force Nearly 20 Percent of Manufacturers to Close”
Read full report at http://mfrtech.com/articles/2293.html
booger
July 6th, 2009
2:41 pm
Les,
Well said.
Here’s a novel idea. What if there were something this country could do which would immediately create thousands of high paying jobs, reduce our dependence on foreign oil, reduce the risk to the environment, and would cost tax payers nothing.
Open up drilling in the gulf 100 miles offshore. We will use no more or less oil if its drilled here. Drilling is almost no risk to the environment [no drilling or production accident in 30 years] while shipping oil in presents much greater risks. Oil jobs are high paying. There is no downside.
Our current admin. seems to like to emulate Europe. The only two major producers in Europe have not curtailed drilling at all. Even Norway, which arguably is the greenist country in the world is drilling full steam.
Guess this is too simple.
Jim Callihan
July 6th, 2009
3:04 pm
“Polar ice cap melting”…”ozone depletion”…”direct weather manipulation”? Perform a net search on the (mostly secret) device/system “HAARP”. Go to some video sites as well – DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH…in other words.
Every tax payer in America is getting JOBBED with this “crap-n-raid” bill. However, it truly is a bonafide, BI-PARTISAN screwing (shhh, dirty lil secret the GOP want’s to run from – let’s all play “blame the other guy”).
Again – un-frikkin-believable!
Mark
July 6th, 2009
4:18 pm
People criticizing the energy bill moan the loss of jobs in the pollutiing industry but cheerfully ignore the jobs that would be created in the new energy sources, grid construction, etc. They make outrageous predictions of the costs pulled out of thin air. They are like the proverbial ostriches with their heads in the sand, thinking that the climate and energy problems will just disappear if they ignore them. What is your solution?
Michael H. Smith
July 6th, 2009
4:33 pm
What is your solution?
A very well thought out viable plan -which HR 2454 is not – that transitions from what we have to what the environmental wingnut-jobs want and probably alot more.
booger
July 6th, 2009
4:41 pm
Mark,
If you haven’t noticed, lots of people do not agree there is a problem to be solved on the scale this admins. proposing.
Woodie
July 6th, 2009
4:46 pm
Is it just me or did this attack make no sense whatsoever? Something about 1200 pages then Jimmy Carter then holding “emitters” accountable for pollution. Which part of the bill does Bill have a problem with? People being accountable or Jimmy Carter or 1200 pages?
Jefferson
July 6th, 2009
4:49 pm
Still, you have to get over it.
Mark
July 6th, 2009
4:55 pm
booger,
the fact that a lots of people do not agree that is a problem to be solved on the scale the admins is proposing is hardly an convincing argument. History shows too many examples of lots of people being ignorant.
Michael H. Smith:
A weel thought out viable plan? That is just words, no substance.
Michael H. Smith
July 6th, 2009
5:12 pm
Your words and HR 2454 contain essentially the substance of two things, solar and wind energy.
Now, who has just words? In fact just two of them and one cannot compete without taxing all other sources of energy now used?
Mark whoever?
booger
July 6th, 2009
5:19 pm
Mark,
I agree 100% on your history statement. I think however we may disagree on who is ignorant. If its the “Sky is falling” crowd and they are successful, we will have bankrupted our country for nothing.
If there weren’t so many questions about the validity of the science being applied here, and the political and financial pressure on the agencies creating this science I could feel a lot better.If we had not learned about all the cover up of data from skeptical scientist I could feel better. No one wants to turn this planet into a bubbling cauldren. What we have learned is this. The icecaps are not dissapearing, they are growing. The average temp. on earth has been falling for about ten years, which would suggest a normal warming/cooling cycle. There are just too many questions to over react at this point.
O-crap!
July 6th, 2009
5:30 pm
Sounds like another veiled attempt at wealth redistribution.
JMH
July 6th, 2009
5:34 pm
How many of these worthless politicians who voted for this crap & tax bill actually read it? Probably none! What a joke our country is turning out to be ever since you morons voted for HOPE & CHANGE. The only CHANGE you will have is about 10 cents of every dollar you make after this idiot you elected raises taxes on everyone….not just the evil rich! People in this country better wake up to what is happening and educate themselves before it’s too late.
JMH
July 6th, 2009
5:39 pm
I read somewhere recently that if this bill passed the effects on the global temp would be a decrease by a whole 1/10th of 1 degree by 2050. Whoopdeedooo!
After people started realizing what a bunch of crap this bill is they started promoting it as a job creation bill. How stupid do they think we are?
Craig
July 6th, 2009
5:50 pm
Woodie, It is just you,what part did you not understand.Trillions of our tax dollars going across the globe because they want us fix global warming.Which scientist don’t even agree upon of how much is made man and just the cycle of our planet.No one mentioned that the other planets have also seen temps rise but then that would take away from the fear factor that OBAMA(ONE BIG AZZ MISTAKE AMERICA)uses so well.
Mark
July 6th, 2009
6:10 pm
booger,
You must have read the reports and data very selectively. I submit that the vast majority of climatologists are in agreement on global warming, the dangers of the climate change, and the role of people in accelerating it. There are always skeptics who maintain that the earth is flat.
Michael H. Smith
July 6th, 2009
6:25 pm
China to top U.S. in Greenhouse gases this year.
Within the next 25 years, CO2 emissions which come from China alone will be double the CO2 emissions which will come from all the OECD countries put together – the whole US, plus Canada, plus all the European countries, Japan, Australia, New Zealand etc.
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/04/china_to_top_us.php
WOW! Now isn’t that interesting? U.S. is no longer going to be number one in emitting greenhouse gases after this year.
Michael H. Smith
July 6th, 2009
6:30 pm
Oh no, that was from two years ago comrade Al Gore!
Gawingnut
July 6th, 2009
6:42 pm
“Germany fought WWII with gasoline made from coal. It is proven technology developed in 1917.”
That was a good post (the part about the cap & tax bill). But I will take issue with the WWII part.
A HUGE number of Americans died in the Army Air Corps, bombing the oil fields in Ploesti, Romania. AH infuriated his generals when he began to miocromanage Operation Barbarossa; the goal of the southern thrust was to turn south & capture the oil fileds in the Caucusus. The result was Stalingrad & we know the rest of the story.
Aushwitz was actually a synthetic fuels plant being built by I.G. Farben, and yes, coal-to-oil technology has been around a while. But it’s expensive. The Russians liberated Aushwitz before it became fully operational; I don’t think the volume they produced was signficant for the Wehrmacht.
Yes, the US is sitting on top of mammoth coal deposits, and buring high sulphur coal can be done with plants that are scrubbed; the utility companies just don’t like to have to absorb the costs associated with a major capital improvement (retrofit) and a shutdown/restart.
Of course, we could start drilling in the Bakken find, but no one is talking about this.
booger
July 6th, 2009
6:55 pm
Mark,
Actually, it is very difficult not to read the reports selectivly since most reports skeptical of the official stance have been buried, and the scientist are under a gag order. Fact is, even Al gore had to admit that reports of the icecaps demise was overstated. The governments own records shoe the anartic ice caps now are over 1.8 miles thick, whereas the average thickness for the decade of the 50s was less than 1.6 miles.
Good science should stand up to scrutiny, not ban it.
booger
July 6th, 2009
7:07 pm
Gawingnut,
I agree with you 100%. we should produce coal, drill for oil and do whatever we can to reduce our dependence on foreign sources for our energy. This dependence will one day prove to be a giant weakness which can be exploited.
Michael H. Smith
July 6th, 2009
9:53 pm
This foreign oil dependence already has proven to be a giant weakness. We have only one other fuel source presently that can compete with or replace coal cost wise and produce the same amounts of energy on demand we need and that is nuclear energy. Which does not create CO2. France gets 70% or so of their electricity from nuclear power and they build nuclear power plants in 5 years not 10 years which is about the time required here in the U.S. to do what France does in 5 years.
In maybe 10 years solar coupled with hydrogen storage units – instead of batteries – can make a go of things without heavy subsidies now required to compete cost wise. Wind can do it now but not in the amounts needed to replace coal or nuclear and hydrogen storage units would make wind generated energy even more feasible.
All the other fuels do produce CO2 in varying amounts, some cleaner than others in producing less greenhouse gases.
If the country did nuclear in 5 years and upgraded the power grid it would by time to develop solar, wind and hydrogen to their full potential without posing economic and national security threats. Under that type of transition plan electric cars even with current batteries being used becomes a viable alternative to gas burning vehicles. Or, hybrids burning a multiple of cleaner fuels which are renewable – NG (or methanol), ethanol, E85 or Bio diesel – that are known for emitting less CO2 than purely gasoline burning engines could be part of the mix.
But HR 2454, forget it. That dog won’t hunt.
Couple of good cap-and-trade articles « East Metro Atlanta Libertarian Party
July 6th, 2009
11:48 pm
[...] $175 per year. Other estimates suggest that ACES will force energy prices far higher. Bob Barr says the proposal is “hot air”:The regulatory behemoth that would be unleashed by the cap-and-trade legislation, if it were to [...]
Understanding what cap-and-trade actually does « Wintery Knight Blog
July 7th, 2009
4:01 am
[...] most contentious provisions in the bill is the use of offsets to reduce carbon dioxide emissions, in which “a manufacturing plant in, say, Gary, Ind., that is exceeding its ‘permitted’ expulsion of [...]
SEC1
July 7th, 2009
7:19 am
As we say in medicine, show me the data! There is NO consensus among “experts” that these global changes are indeed manmade. NONE.
Obviously the people who want to believe we are the problem are on board. Conversely, those who are skeptics about “global warming” are not. So who do we believe? I can design a study to prove the world is flat, but does that make it true? The point – be cautious about what you read as the devil is always in the details.
Until there is more definitive evidence, I’m not a believer in implementing drastic eonomic policies (only here in the US by the way). We simply have not accumulated enough data over time to unequivocally state that we can affect the outcome…
Christian
July 7th, 2009
7:49 am
The bottom line is that this bill is a ploy to redistribute wealth and increase taxes to pay for our financial woes. If you really want to reduce pollution, you go after the folks that produce it. ie force auto manufactures to improve gas millage by x about over x time or you force energy companies to build new solutions for generating power when retiring old ones. There are plenty of ways the US can mandate pollution control. This plan is not doing that. This plan is simply taxing companies for producing CO2 or forcing them to trade credits.
If we need money to continue to prop up our economy, then just say it. Don’t try to hid it in a a vail of smoke
FLINT
July 7th, 2009
12:04 pm
To all of you that think this is a good idea please pay for it. I would prefer to do what the rest of the world is doing and build more Nuclear Power plant for energy and keep the price and emissions down. By building Nuclear power plant we would reduce the need to burn coal and reduce emissions. We would be able to supply the energy to power production plant through out the US and reuce the brown out in our major cities. The baffoons in Washington on both sides are so out of touch with the needs of this natiion that its sad.
Sebastiano
July 7th, 2009
1:08 pm
Can cap and trade save us from a super vulcanic eruption or a sunamy or a earth quake.
This cap and trade is just one more way to take more money from people .Wake up people lets all stop working stop smoking stop drinking stop eating this will save the planet.
Republican
July 7th, 2009
1:18 pm
This is simply another plan to grow government and make us all rely on government instead of ourselves for everything we need. In the eyes of the democracts, we Americans are simply incapable of deciding what is best for us. It is nanny government’s job to look out for us and make sure we don’t eat too much ice cream or burn too much gasoline or eat too much red meat or have too much fun enjoying life.
retiredds
July 7th, 2009
4:39 pm
Joanne 600, when you have 30,000 scientists on one side of an issue and 30,000 on the other side, they cancel each other out.
Brandon
July 7th, 2009
4:58 pm
all these comments that all of us are making….it should scare the crap out of all of us that Obama is doing this incredible hitleristic damage to our country…..i mean it seems he stole his handbook
Obama is taking over everything, utilities,Cars,Health Care,Finances..And now with this new ACORN census bullcrap, He is gonna take away our freedom by fining us fees if we don’t answer all of ACORN’S questions when they call us…..I feel sick to my stomach for my kids…..They are the ones that are really gonna pay for this……This horrific,condeming way of comunism or(hitlerism) this world has seen in over 60 years…Please talk to your neighbors and have them talk to their neighbors and vote these liberals and liberal republicans out in the next few years…….for our kids and their kids sake
MIGHTYDAD
July 7th, 2009
5:42 pm
The environmentalists cry for the whales, they cry for the bees, they cry for the trees, and now the the threat of CO2 (which is a natural gas that trees use to produce oxygen), when will they take the time to cry for the future of their own children? “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.” Matthew 7:6
Cap and Trade is nothing more than legalized racketeering. Past corporate levels, every American citizen will be paying a made up tax based upon their home-carbon usage, how many cars do you have, boats, motorcycles, weedeater, etc. to the point where we will all be in bread lines. This administration wants a country of citizens reliant upon Government programs, welfare, socialized health, etc. Does anyone who supports socialized healthcare realize that where they live is where they will receive their primary care?? For example I live in a small town (2,000 est. pop), under socialized healthcare my family would be required to attend our local hospital (which is a joke, last time we went there the nurses/Dr. recommended we take our son to another hospital in leiu of them giving him stitches) instead of being able to commute to a more reliable hospital 30 miles away. Why does this matter folks, because with Cap and Trade the higher the Unemployment rate climbs (due to companies closing their doors from Cap and Trade fees) the more appealing Socialized Healthcare becomes as a needed necessity for Americans, which is then easier passed. It is about Socialism, not saving the world, so the leftwingers can quit making comments about “when are the Republicans going to wake up and get on board”, there is no board to get on. All of you environment worry-warts, do yourself a favor and look up John Coleman, founder of the Weather Channel, one of the most respected weather scientists and see what he says about global warming. You may feel much better after you check it out, maybe your worry over the environment will be replaced by a new worry, a worry of what the current Administration is trying to sell us.
Has anyone taken the time to notice while the media has been busy with Michael Jackson and the media slaughtering Sarah Palin (kind of funny that Sarah Palin and her family was everything that the Democrats supposedly supported, women’s right’s, young unwed-mother, a special needs child, a woman who demanded equal rights and they went after her harder than cheetah on a gazelle) and her family to the point of exhaustion that our very own President has people working on changing the term of the Presidency?? Fiction you say??? Believe it. Pull your head out of mainstream media and do some research beyond what is recommended by birds of the same feather.
Michael H. Smith
July 7th, 2009
6:20 pm
Some very good news to hear came by way of T. Boone Pickens today appearing on the Glenn Beck Show.
In fact, it is so incredible it is still very difficult for me to believe but as Boone Pickens stated the United States has 2,000 trillion cubic feet of Natural Gas, which would mean we have more Natural Gas than Russia. By heretofore conventional held wisdom Russia was number one in world Natural Gas reserves. Now we are. That’s right. The U.S. holds more Natural Gas than any other nation on earth according to Pickens claim and Pickens generally knows what he is talking about when it comes to anything oil and Natural Gas or anything energy per se for that matter. After all, he’s only a billionaire because of that knowledge.
So what’s the big deal, why all the bluster? Very simple, the U.S. has enough Natural Gas to power everything that moves on dirt or on the roadways with Natural Gas for a very long time to come without using any virtually any oil, foreign or domestic.
DRILL BABY, DRILL!!!!!
The country should be going with Natural Gas for automobiles, heavy trucks, equipment and heavy equipment coupled with nuclear energy for mainstay electrical power generation, to include updating and upgrade the electric grid.
Voila, Energy Independence in less than a decade and no real need of Caps and Trades.
Wait a minute, is that comrade Al Gore over in the corner crying, with comrades Pelosi and Reid comforting him?
Oh I do so hate to see a grown Dunkey cry.
Michael H. Smith
July 7th, 2009
8:30 pm
Yep, Pickens has his ducat$ in row, his info is good. Bye-Bye Caps and Trades
Potential Gas Committee reports unprecedented increase in magnitude of U.S. natural gas resource base
Excerpt:
The Committee’s year-end 2008 assessment of 1,836 Tcf (statistically aggregated mean value) consists of 1,673 Tcf of gas attributable to traditional reservoirs and 163 Tcf in coalbed reservoirs. Compared to year-end 2006, traditional resources increased by nearly 519 Tcf (45%), while coalbed gas resources decreased by 3 Tcf (1.9%), resulting in a net increase in total potential resources of 515 Tcf (39%). (See accompanying Table 1.)
These changes have been assessed in addition to the 41 Tcf of marketed domestic natural gas production recorded during the two-year period since the Committee’s previous report.
When the PGC’s results are combined with the U.S. Department of Energy’s latest available determination of proved gas reserves, 238 Tcf as of year-end 2007, the United States has a total available future supply of 2,074 Tcf, an increase of 542 Tcf over the previous evaluation….
http://www.rigzone.com/news/article.asp?a_id=77352
Michael H. Smith
July 7th, 2009
8:34 pm
Potential Gas Committee reports unprecedented increase in magnitude of U.S. natural gas resource base
Correction to the link above:
http://www.mines.edu/Potential-Gas-Committee-reports-unprecedented-increase-in-magnitude-of-U.S.-natural-gas-resource-base
Knee-Cap and Trade | TDC
July 22nd, 2009
2:41 am
[...] (Source) [...]