Secession talk far from extreme

Although he later downplayed his remark, Texas Gov. Rick Perry’s use of the “S” word — secession — during one of the April 15 tea parties has focused attention on the growing gulf between the dramatic, unprecedented growth in the federal government’s power and spending, and efforts by individual states to maintain independent authority.
Any reference, however vague, to the notion that one of the 50 states might actually consider cutting the ties between it and Washington evokes howls of derision from the political establishment.

But the growing grass-roots sentiment that dramatic action is necessary to restore a semblance of balanced federalism in the country makes it likely such discussion will increase.

The fact that Perry also noted that some military veterans in the crowd at Austin might be “right-wing extremists” also reflected the growing chasm between government and citizens opposed to runaway federal spending and power.

The governor’s reference, echoed in other tea parties last week, was based on the fact that federal and state government law enforcement Web sites and publications characterize grass-roots organizations concerned about gun control, nationalization, unemployment, loss of civil liberties and excessive government spending, as “right-wing extremists” and “militants.”

That people would be viewed by our government as a possible threat because they express concern for the loss of freedom and our growing economic problems is itself so bizarre that references to secession are unsurprising.

Placing Perry’s remarks in the context of his position the previous day in support of a Texas state House resolution reaffirming support for the 10th Amendment strengthens the reasonableness of his position. On April 14, Perry expressed his “unwavering support for efforts all across our country to reaffirm the states’ rights affirmed by the 10th Amendment.”

He also noted that he and “millions of Texans are tired of Washington, D.C., trying to come down here and tell us how to run Texas.” Are such views “extreme”? Do they not, rather, reflect mainstream and historically accurate sentiments? After all, is not the resolution Perry supported simply a reaffirmation of the very words of and the philosophy underlying the 10th Amendment?

Much of the media, in addition to characterizing Perry’s comments as “reckless” (the words of one Texas newspaper), also have attempted to paint such views as economically irresponsible. This view is premised on the “loss” of federal funds that would befall Texas or any other state that might sever ties to Washington. In fact, many of the 50 states send more in tax dollars to Washington than the states and its citizens receive from the feds — making secession actually not that bad a business deal (Texas about breaks even).

In fact, the sky likely would not fall if some serious moves were made to break the stranglehold the federal government now maintains on virtually every aspect of state and local governments. There are, in fact, some examples starting to surface. The RealID program, with its mandate of a national identification card, has been brought largely to a standstill because of state opposition.

And at least a few states — Texas and South Carolina among them — are refusing President Barack Obama’s “stimulus monies” because of the strings attached.
Who knows? If Texas were to secede, the state might enjoy a significant inward migration of independent-minded citizens from other states, and precipitate a real boom in its economy.

Regardless, simply musing about such things, as did the Texas governor, is neither subversive nor pointless.

120 comments Add your comment


April 22nd, 2009
9:07 am

Great idea, Bob. I’ve said the same thing about Alaska. Let them become their own nation. Those who wish can move to either Texas or Alaska. They can do whatever they want, they can set up a theocracy, or a monarchy, if that’s what they want.
In the case of Texas we’ll just move OUR border north and set-up new border crossings at the highways. Then they’ll be responsible for policing the current border. No problem with Alaska, as Canada will have to police their current borders.

Ron Roberts

April 22nd, 2009
9:21 am

Go ahead, Governor Perry, secede; we’ll set up our border patrols around YOUR border and let YOU deal with illegal immigration concerns within your own ’soveriegn border.’ That’ll basically cut OUR immigration problems in half – so we both win, right? Let’s see how you deal with that.

But remember, when you secede, don’t pick up the phone to call us when the NEXT hurricane comes barreling towards Houston/Galveston, either, okay? I mean, your state CLEARLY showed an ability to evacuate in a timely fashion (note: sarcasm) when Hurricane Rita came at Houston.

And remember, when you secede, you’ll have no federal highway funding, school funding, either; your military bases will no longer be economic engines to their nearby communities, we’ll have to move NASA out of Houston, too.

I’m sure you’ll do fine, though.

I’m SICK and tired of this “lose, take your ball, and go home” mentality out of the right. Did you hear liberals in the northeast speak of secession, depsite eight years of moronic leadership by Bush? Hypocrisy.


April 22nd, 2009
9:22 am

term limits.


April 22nd, 2009
9:25 am

I think Texas should use its power not to secede but to break up into 5 states, all Republican, or maybe some independents. Boy that would really make the liberals wet their pants. LOL


April 22nd, 2009
9:27 am

This is so ridiculous. I guess if the people of Texas don’t get their way they will just not play anymore. Texas needs to grow up and get over themselves. We ought to give them what they want and 6 months into their new nationhood they will start realizing just how very much support they do get from the federal government. Secession is illegal. We have had this fight before. Talk like this coming from a governor must be a scary thing for the non-extremist who do live in Texas.

Adam C

April 22nd, 2009
9:27 am

I find the hypocrisy of the right more dangerous every day! Where were these so called conservatives with the Patriot Act was signed? How about the warrantless wiretaps? Or the Terry Schiavo intervention? Oh yeah…they were calling anyone who disagreed with them godless traitors who should leave the country! Hypocrites and dangerous extremists to boot!


April 22nd, 2009
9:35 am

When the GOP controlled the White House and Congress — Republicans sneered at anyone who disagreed with Bush, Rove and Cheney as unpatriotic, unamerican and equated them with terrorists.

After a remarkable run of misrule — Americans tossed out the GOP and voted for the Democratic Party. The GOPs response: buy guns, secede from the United States, call anyone who disagrees with you a communist, socialist, facist.

No wonder the GOP has become the party of the angry white southern male.


April 22nd, 2009
9:38 am

Concern about right-wing extremists is entirely reasonable and realistic. Some of us remember the Oklahoma City bombing.


April 22nd, 2009
9:54 am

Yea and amen. As Lincoln said as a Senator, “The right of secession is fundamental to liberty.”


April 22nd, 2009
9:56 am

Bob – you know the kind of people elected to state and local government – and no one knows the congress better – do you really think that it’s not a good idea to keep a stranglehold on state and local government? You cite “the growing grass-roots sentiment that dramatic action is necessary ” – but we all know what John Locke, the father of western education, said about the grass roots “The masses are asses” – and that’s what the GOP has been counting on for over 25 years. Maybe the masses are wising up. I could just see Texas seceding – Next, a 200% tariff on everything it produces! In two months – it would be Little Cuba.

The Alpha Male

April 22nd, 2009
10:19 am

Loud-mouthed liberals as usual spout opinions without knowing the facts….. as recently as 2007, the great state of New Hampshire, as liberal as they come, espoused the virtues of state sovereignty and even formed a political party aimed at constitutionally SECEDING FROM THE UNION because they felt the nation was too far right!!

If your going to be a blathering idiot, Ron….. at least do so with a smidgeon of actual fact.


April 22nd, 2009
10:27 am

You know, as a former Texan, there are a lot of concerns I might have for an independent Texas… border security is NOT one of them. And it would be telling if suddenly the Democrats got serious about border security, trying to keep conservative, productive, English-speaking Texans out of America.


April 22nd, 2009
10:27 am

Californication, you are almost right, the documents drafted when Texas joined the union, assured them the right to divide into FOUR separate states.
Algonquin, his skin color mattered more to the MANY racists that voted simply because he was black . . . then it does to those that oppose his policies – purple with green polka dots still wouldn’t make those any more attractive.


April 22nd, 2009
10:32 am

Without Texas (and its 2 GOP Senators), the Senate would have 98 members, and Democrats would already have a veto-proof majority (even without a senator from Wisconsin). Bye, Texas!

Please Succeed

April 22nd, 2009
10:43 am

I think Texas should succeed, as long as they take Florida with them. As a matter of fact, as much trouble as Texas has caused this great nation of OURS by having the worst president we have ever had being born and raised in their state – they need to to PAY us to get out of dodge. Calling your bluff Texas – don’t mess with us or you might find yourself without a country! (And once we go green, your oil won’t be worth anything!)


April 22nd, 2009
10:44 am

Youre all being baited. This isnt about Left vs. Right or Liberal vs. Conservative. This is about those who control our money (the private banksters) and those that dont (the American public). The root cause of all of our nation’s problems lies in the very fact that our financial system is one giant scam. The principal + interest of every loan issued by a bank (in our current *closed* financial system) is far greater than the actual principal amount ever created, which renders every single loan MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to pay back. Since banks only create the principal (and never the interest to “service” it), then the money to pay the interest comes from yet another loan.

People of the United States, get your head on straight and let’s focus on the real terrorists in this country. The ones who control our financial system through the Federal Reserve are the real culprits, and you are being derailed into a Left vs. Right argument.

Support H.R. 1207 and AUDIT THE FEDERAL RESERVE to find out where 12 trillion dollars of our money has gone (read up on TALF, Maiden Lane I, Maiden Lane II, etc). The 787 billion “bailout” is NOTHING compared to those.

Red Foreman

April 22nd, 2009
10:47 am

I fera a civil war between conservatives and libtards is on the way…the libtards will lose cause they cant defend themselves…


April 22nd, 2009
10:51 am

The governor’s reference, echoed in other tea parties last week, was based on the fact that federal and state government law enforcement Web sites and publications characterize grass-roots organizations concerned about gun control, nationalization, unemployment, loss of civil liberties and excessive government spending, as “right-wing extremists” and “militants.”

The governor won’t be taken seriously & most grass roots organizations won’t be either . Not because their concerns aren’t valid but because all of these concerns Rick Perry lists started under a republican president from Texas . For better or worse without any acknowledgment of that all of this current uproar will never gain any real traction . As an independent I find that scary .


April 22nd, 2009
10:51 am

Let the guard go “Kent State” on em’.

Steven Daedalus

April 22nd, 2009
11:08 am

I say “Don’t let the door hit you in the back when you leave.” Texas is the nearest nothing place there ever was, and any group of people who would elect Sarah Palin, into any office, has to be seriously challenged. Bye, bye and good riiddance.


April 22nd, 2009
11:11 am

Hey, Bob, just remember that the decision to investigate Right Wing extremists was made by the administration of Governor Perry’s predecessor in Texas. The orders on border patrol were made by his predecessor. The original TARP legislation was signed by his predecessor.

As others have pointed out, where were these “grassroots” organizations complaining about civil liberties when the Governor Perry’s predecessor was signing the Patriot Act?

Did you conveniently forget that on April 3, SC Governor Sanford finally relented and started accepting stimulus funds because he didn’t want other states getting South Carolina’s share? It was a RINO Governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger, who said he would be happy to take it. Principle only went so far with Mr. Sanford.

Finally, as for possible ex-military Right Wing extremists…you do realize that Timothy McVeigh served in the 1st Infantry Division and Eric Rudolph was in the 101st Airborne, don’t you? No one is saying every former serviceman is a future bomber any more than every environmentalist is one either. I’m just saying that Rudolph and Ted Kaczynski just happen to both be serving time in SuperMax together. In the criminal justice system, both men are domestic terrorists.


April 22nd, 2009
11:20 am

As soon as they pay off their share of the federal debt, let them go. They have been sucking more money out of the federal system then they put in. Move our military and government facilities out, and let them have a go of it without federal support. Oh, and we keep SXSW. I wish we could keep Austin, but that would be too hard. The good folks there can move before we shut the border down.

The Baron

April 22nd, 2009
11:21 am

If Rick Perry and his ilk do not like anything that’s happening right now, that’s fine. That’s why The US is a democracy. They can campaign for their ideas and run on them in future elections and get themselves a majority of the votes. But to start threatening secession less than 100 days into the term of a newly elected federal government is not just peurile, it is laughable. Where was Rick Perry in the last 8 years? In Mars?

I think their problem is not really about spending as they claim. After all, the Obama administration apart from reducing the tax burden on the vast majority of Americans only plans to adjust the top tax bracket’s rate upwards to what it was under Clinton- less than it was under Reagan! So what’s the basis for all this secession showmanship? Is it about Obama? Or rather, isn’t it?

Wake Up

April 22nd, 2009
11:21 am

Folks on this blog need a history lesson. I don’t always agree with Barr, but he’s right (and I don’t mean political leaning) on this one. This region (including Texas) and a large portion of individuals don’t consider this a “left and right” issue any longer when it comes to size of government. History will clearly show that the central issue is one of self determination and the idea that a large federal government can be an obstruction to individual freedoms and growth and prosperity for rich AND poor. If that sounds ‘GOP’ to anyone, go back a few decades and you’ll see the same groups making the same arguments and voting solid democrat. Both parties have failed MISERABLY in protecting individuals from an overbearing government — with one party pressing the gas pedal and the other party riding in the passenger seat. We do not feel represented and we’re mad (yes, I count myself, a doctoral level scientist and voter who doesnt even own a gun — don’t try to paint us as dumb rednecks). What is our recourse? YELLING and protesting that we’re fed up with this, and hoping we have someone worth voting for soon. I don’t want to hear anything about whining — especially from big-government proponents who until now have cornerned the market on protests and shakedowns. You’re just not used to competing for poster board and sidewalk space. Get used to it — more on the way.

Just Nasty & Mean

April 22nd, 2009
11:21 am

If we could only get the dysfunctional, mismanaged, screwed up states to secede, like California, Michigan, New York, Mass., Kansas, Illinois.

Notice anything these have in common? DEMOCRAPS! UNIONS!

I know, I know, Arnold says he is a Republican. But anyone with half a brain knows different. Maria has gotten to him (with you know what) and he’s now part of the Kennedy clan–you know–Big Government, tax and spend, central control, government dependency—

We all know what Democraps are. Look at these states. Nice job!


April 22nd, 2009
11:23 am

Great article, Mr. Barr!!

Abraham Lincoln

April 22nd, 2009
11:25 am

I was never a Senator, Bob.

In fact, I couldn’t beat Douglas in 1858 because I did not believe in the right of secession. I believed that “The Slave Power” was threatening the values of our republic.


April 22nd, 2009
11:28 am

Mr Barr, when are you going to announce your candadacy for Governor of GA?


April 22nd, 2009
11:39 am

“I’m SICK and tired of this “lose, take your ball, and go home” mentality out of the right. Did you hear liberals in the northeast speak of secession, depsite eight years of moronic leadership by Bush?”

Actually, there were people on the Left who suggested that the two coasts should divorce themselves from the “heartland”. Also, others talked seriously about moving to Canada or other countries.


April 22nd, 2009
11:43 am

First for those who comment on hurricane Ike. I live here on the gulf coast and the fed gov did little if nothing to help this community. It was friends and family and TEXANS who pulled texas back on its feet. About secession- texas economy ranks 10 th in the world. we have asked for no stimulus nor support. its not a racist thing its a we like our freedoms and a strong economy. a recession dont spend our money like a 10 year old with a blank checkbook. Dont think Texas is all about oil..T-boone Pickens has invested more of his own money into wind energy here in texas than the feds have in all the us. If your going to rant please know facts…moronic crap is why we are in this mess and dont blame Rick Perry or Texans for wanting aw ay to help our future, our families, our economy, and our freedoms.

Taxed Todeath

April 22nd, 2009
11:44 am

Fairtax. Check it out, it will work, it will bring jobs and corporations back to the U.S.A., it will revitalize our economy and get rid of a HUGE burden on the U.S. Government, the IRS. Check it out at

Oh, and to all you non-spelling, grammatical morons, try proofing your opinion before you post.


April 22nd, 2009
11:46 am

It is funny to read the rantings of the left. I would say if Texas did break away the rest of this nation would be better for it. For one, The border would be secure like it should. Cross it and get shot. (little note here, my father swam the Rio-Grand, doesn’t matter , he should have been shot ) Texas oil stays in Texas, Can you say cheap oil? all the while the while working to find alt. fuels.
Funny how if you do not like the policies of our prez. you are a racist? How is this?
By defacto , everyone who hates GW Bush (a great man by the way) is a Racist. If a black person hates Bush, he is a honkey hatin racist?
I think not, Please understand the attacks on the Liberty, the Constitution and to the REPUBLIC (not democracy) that have been put in place in the past few months pale in comparison to ANYTHING GW did, Thats why we ain’t been yellin “fo now.

Real Patriot

April 22nd, 2009
11:47 am

I think the time has come for loyal Americans to get in our pick up trucks and head for Texas with enough rope to take care of those seditious folks who wish to break the Union.

Secession is TREASON.


April 22nd, 2009
11:53 am

Where were all the teabaggers when Bush was president, running up the debt on BS wars? Where were they when he was vastly expanding not only federal power but EXECUTIVE power, to spy on Americans, to wiretap our phones, to check our mail, to read our library records, all without warrants.

What you have here are a small group of people (with megaphones and radio shows) who are rapidly losing their minds after years of paranoia (”Blacks/gays/liberals/the media/colleges/France/immigrants/the government/Mexicans/feminists/unions/Communists are out to get us!) and are throwing one hell of a hissy fit in the process because most Americans have realized the destruction caused by conservatism and decided to elect a black liberal to clean up the economic, diplomatic, environmental, and administrative messes left by conservatives.

The people of Texas and South Carolina and Alaska are just fine being Americans. It’s the nutcases like Perry and Sanford and Palin that are whining, ironically, so they appeal to the ever-shrinking Republican base made up of nutcases of equal or greater magnitude so they can get the Republican nomination in 2012 and have the honor of being on the receiving end of another Democratic landslide.

[...] Bob Barr defends the talk: Much of the media, in addition to characterizing Perry’s comments as “reckless” (the words of one Texas newspaper), also have attempted to paint such views as economically irresponsible. This view is premised on the “loss” of federal funds that would befall Texas or any other state that might sever ties to Washington. In fact, many of the 50 states send more in tax dollars to Washington than the states and its citizens receive from the feds — making secession actually not that bad a business deal (Texas about breaks even). [...]


April 22nd, 2009
11:59 am

I will move to Texas the day they secede from the union, unless Georgia goes with them. Not that far fetched…

Dwight Elliston

April 22nd, 2009
11:59 am

I happened to take MARTA last week at around 7PM. I saw so many people riding the train that bump in ridership was probably enough to erase the transit system’s current deficit. But that’s besides the point.

Governor Rick Perry’s talks of secession is irresponsible. As an elected official, and the state’s chief executive, he should not be making statements that threaten the territorial integrity of our republic. We all know times are difficult, and everyone is looking for a skapegoat for the problems that confront us.

The expansion of the Federal government occurred under the watch of a Republican controlled Congress, and White House (yep, thank you “W”). And on the subject of civil liberties, let’s re-examine the Patriot Act, and the numerous statutes and executive orders that were promoted to “protect us from terrorism.” (remember the NSA dragnet anyone?)

And what about those state legislatures that routinely subject minority rights to referenda? The undermining of habeas corpus?

States have always been free to reject Federal mandates. We are hearing more about it today, because many states used to have an alternative to Federal funding, but now those sources have disappeared. Now they want to have their cake and eat it too.

Real Patriot

April 22nd, 2009
12:00 pm

Hey Matt The “teabaggers” are part of the Astroturf movement who are in search of some issue to divert our attention away from the abuse of Federal power and the greed driven economic rape of this Nation over the last 8 years.

As more folks lose their homes and jobs in the aftermath of “conservative politics” many will see that the current Administration is doing what is necessary to right the ship and get it off the rocks. Until then too many of the southern with males will cling to their cherished ideals and blame those who had little to do with today’s problems


April 22nd, 2009
12:02 pm

I am as liberal as anyone, but while I don’t agree with the seccessionist talk I totally understand the anger. There are a lot of people who pay their taxes on time, pay their bills on time, are cutting their budgets to be able to just survive, scrificing a lot of future dreams just to get by today. And they see a government giving away trillions of dollars to companies that are run by individuals who couldn’t even balance their own checkbooks. Americans are told every day to sacrifice, cut expenses, be patient, yet we see our government burning through billions every day. Our government better understand this anger, or in a generation you’ll see a real break-up of this country.

Democrap Party

April 22nd, 2009
12:02 pm

This article is for all the morons who are against waterboarding.

Intel chief: Harsh techniques brought good info

Private memo says interrogation methods helped nation in terrorism fight

WASHINGTON – President Obama’s national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.

“High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country,” Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday.

Admiral Blair sent his memo on the same day the administration publicly released secret Bush administration legal memos authorizing the use of interrogation methods that the Obama White House has deemed to be illegal torture. Among other things, the Bush administration memos revealed that two captured Qaeda operatives were subjected to a form of near-drowning known as waterboarding a total of 266 times.

Democrap Party

April 22nd, 2009
12:04 pm

JP, I agree with you. People who have lived their American life as real citizens should be angry and outraged that our two parties have sold them out. From Bush onto Obama, both presidents spent our money and thrust us into socialism. Good law abiding citizens who have obeyed the laws and paid their taxes are being punished. There will be a backlash against democrats in the near future.

And, if we are attacked, and we will be attacked again, the Obama administration is finished.

Democrap Party

April 22nd, 2009
12:08 pm

Real Patriot, name ONE thing the current administration is doing that is good for the country.

Lets see:

1: President Obama is running up a 4 trillion dollar deficit that NO generation will ever pay off.

2: He sides with our enemies and bows to the Saudi King.

3: He does NOTHING about illegal immigration.

4: He is nationalizing the car and banking industry.

5: There will be no economic growth.

6: He goes to other countries to trash talk America AND he thanked Ortega for not blaming him for any problems.

The list goes on and on and on.

Real Patriot

April 22nd, 2009
12:10 pm

Mr Democrap, a Memeber of the Repugnantones, needs to include the King of deficit spending, Reagan. His use of tax dollars that we did not have started the economic downslide of this country in the early 80’s. Thanx to the illegal alien amnesty of’86 the borders were thrown open and the enforcement of laws enacted at that time has been lax at best.

Yes, both parties are to blame. The best President in the last few decades has been Clinton. It was during his era that the President, not the Treasury, was getting sucked dry.

Red Foreman

April 22nd, 2009
12:13 pm

Im mad, fighting mad!!!!

Conservatives vs. Libtards…

JC in Powder Springs

April 22nd, 2009
12:13 pm

“Growing grass roots sentiment” – what a load of ship! I tell ya what Bob, go ahead and move to Texas and secede. You can call the new country Moronia and Limbaugh can be your king.

Never underestimate the incredible mountain of B.S. old white men will come up with to keep their hands on the levers of power! How about another tea bag party? What a bunch of clowns!

Barr’s garbage actually gets printed in the paper? No wonder they’re going out of business.

Real Patriot

April 22nd, 2009
12:16 pm

Democrap, aka Repugnant one,
Not too strong on current events are you? Lets see,
Bush kissed the Saudi King and allowed himself to be lead by the hand. Bush nationalized the banks with the $750 Billion bailout all without Congressional oversight.

Bush gave the car industry the initial bail out of $25 billion

The Obama debt is about one trillion, Bush’s debt is more than $6 trillion. What generation will p[ay off the Bush debt before the Obama debt is paid off? Our generation and the next couple though higher taxes and fees.

Why not be nice to the Cubans? I would love to get my hands on a 58 Chevy 2 door Belaire.

Democrap Party

April 22nd, 2009
12:16 pm

Real Patriot, Clinton was a sneaky monkey. He did some good things but only because the GOP kept him in check. His early years were not that good. If he had gone after Al Queda instead of using his cigar in an inappropriate way his legacy would have been better. He also is lied under oath which is a big no no. Reagans legacy has and will fare better than Clinton because Reagans faults will not be remembered like Clintons will.

Mark my words!

Democrap Party

April 22nd, 2009
12:19 pm

Real Patriot, aka Benedict Arnold, I can name call all day if you like. Name calling gets one no where. Name calling shows your lack of intelligence.

Now, if you want to have a serious debate fine, but please leave the childish name calling to kindergarten children.

Like I said, Bush is at fault so you can’t throw that in my face pal. But what Obama is doing is suicide for America. Look around at this country. Look at how many people live outside their means and yet they are crying that they can not pay their debt. BOO HOO!

I love Cuban cigars but fact are facts. Castro and Che were murderers plain and simple. JFK botched Cuba up and here we are today.

Democrap Party

April 22nd, 2009
12:21 pm

Real Patriot, by the way oh unintelligent one, I am not a member of the Republican party. That’s the problem with people like you. Always assuming what you don’t know.

Real Patriot

April 22nd, 2009
12:23 pm

You are right about Reagan’s faults not being remembered. As we have come to see he could not remember them either.

Too bad the GOP didnt keep Bush in check, they may still control at least one of the chambers of congress.

Clinton did lie under oath and Bush violated international law by authorizing torture.

Clinton was impeached though not convicted. Though I would not smoke one of his cigars either.

Bush will be taken to the Hague and tried as a criminal. Cheny and Gonzales will be in the defense chair along with their Boss.