Cam Newton, Terrelle Pryor rulings are completely different
Nobody asked me but:
The Cameron Newton and Terrelle Pryor rulings are completely different: Since Ohio State’s Pryor has already played (and won) the Sugar Bowl and Auburn’s Newton will (probably) play in his last college football game Monday night, I’m going to make this point one last time and call it a day.
I had more than a few people from Big Ten country write and tell me that Pryor should get to play inthe Sugar Bowl because Newton got to play in the SEC championship game and beyond. It’s the same NCAA and fair is fair.
First of all, I thought Pryor played great Tuesday night. There is no question that he still has some maturity issues to work through but he is a marvelous athlete playing the quarterback position.
But, in a nutshell, here is the difference in the two rulings:
Pryor: There was a finding of FACT that he and four other Ohio State players exchanged stuff that was given to him by the school for something of value (like money and tattoos). Money did change hands. There is a clear penalty for that in the rule book: four game suspension. The NCAA tacked on another game because it happened a year ago and the players did not report it. You may think it is a stupid rule (a lot of people do) but the rule is clear. The goofy part is that the penalty starts next season, but that’s a completely different argument.
Newton: There was a finding of fact that the father, Cecil Newton, had a conversation with a former Mississippi State player (Kenny Rogers) not affiliated with the school, about the POSSIBILITY of getting paid. There was no finding that money ever changed hands. There was no finding that those kinds of discussions took place with anybody connected to Auburn.
And here is the key component. Unlike the Ohio State case, there was NOT a specific rule in the NCAA manual to deal with the Newton case. There was a lot of speculation in the conventional media and the social media that SOMETHING was going on here. But when it came time to make the decision, the only facts the NCAA had were that Cecil Newton had a conversation with Kenny Rogers and that no such conversations had taken place with anybody connected to Auburn.
Bottom line: If the NCAA could have proven that Cecil Newton had a similar conversation with somebody who had Auburn ties, the son would not be playing today. If the NCAA could have proven that Cecil Newton had taken money from somebody with Mississippi State ties, the son would not be playing Monday night. There was a helluva lot of speculation that SOMETHING took place. And I have heard from people who believe that it simply defies logic that there wasn’t more to this story.
I understand and sympathize with that point of view. But what you BELIEVE and what you can PROVE are different things. It’s a tough case.
And here’s another point. A lot of people have written that the reason Cam Newton was not punished was that he did not know what his father was up to. In retrospect the NCAA should have not included that factor because it only clouds its ruling. The fact that Cam Newton did not know was a MITIGATING factor but not a DECIDING factor in the ruling. There is a big difference.
The NCAA could not sit Cameron Newton because it did not have a specific rule to address this specific case. That’s it. I feel confident in saying that there will be such a rule in the future.
I hope that settles it but I have a feeling this case will never be settled.
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581 comments Add your comment
Joe Bob Thibodaux
January 6th, 2011
1:44 pm
Haaaa!
You fellas got me.
Haaaa!
BAMA dude
January 6th, 2011
1:44 pm
Tell the truth
January 6th, 2011
1:41 pm
The “punishing innocent players” argument does not hold water. You still punish the ones who are still around next year with the loss of the fab 5. Of course maybe you should just wait until all of the current players have used up all eligibility and then punish the new dudes.
By serving at the beginning of the year, the replacement starters will be able to practice in the offseason to prepare for the expanded role they will have. Completely different than losing your top QB, RB, and WR and having to replace on the fly.
Tell the truth
January 6th, 2011
1:51 pm
The whole team still loses the participation of the fab 5 for 5 games next year. The deferral of the games beyond the bowl game to next year is ludicrous. And the argument that OSU made that the players did not know that what they did was wrong is even more ludicrous. And that they(OSU) did not tell them in a sufficient manner. Parsing words/ straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. Pure bogusosity. More likely- that little white speck that the chicken farmer earlier referred to.
ARdawg
January 6th, 2011
1:52 pm
Bama dude
No I was referring to the part as to “why” USC players who were in middle school when Reggie and his folks received benefits have to be punished
Tifton man
January 6th, 2011
1:54 pm
@bama dude,
Lambert pretty much just ate your lunch. He nailed you with the NC comparison, not to mention the fact that every other state he listed has AT LEAST the same advantage as Georgia does over Alabama in population.
Tifton man
January 6th, 2011
1:54 pm
And don’t forget Virgina. Another state with nearly the same population as Georgia but with far less upper tier talent.
BAMA dude
January 6th, 2011
1:56 pm
Well, ARDawg, it’s because at USC, the institution itself committed the violation of “lack of institutional control.” In the Cam scenario, based on current evidence, the Barn has done nothing wrong. Unfortunately you can’t help punishing innocent players when the institution itself is at fault. When the institution follows protocol, and it’s just a few players who make themselves ineligible by their own independent actions, then you can.
BAMA dude
January 6th, 2011
1:57 pm
Tifton Man, wtf are you talking about? And again, why do I care about the quality of high school football in Alabama or anywhere else? I’m concerned about the kids who put on that Crimson jersey and how they compare to the kids who put on those of rival programs. That’s all.
Got Crack Bama?
January 6th, 2011
2:04 pm
Alabama slammer
NCAA puts Tide on 5-year probation, 2-year bowl ban
Posted: Friday February 01, 2002 2:05 PM
Updated: Friday February 01, 2002 8:48 PM
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The governing body said it considered giving the Crimson Tide the most severe punishment — the death penalty — under the repeat violator rules for a recruiting scandal in which boosters were accused of paying money for high school players.
“They were absolutely staring down the barrel of a gun,” said Thomas Yeager, chairman of the infractions committee.
“These violations are some of the worst, most serious that have ever occurred,” he said.
ARdawg
January 6th, 2011
2:10 pm
Bama dude
You can’t have it both ways there Dogg. When any player violates the NCAA rules there is always “lack of institutional control”. The school did not control the situation. It is up to the institution and the program to insure there are no infractions. When a single player or a single coach violates the school and the program is punished. There’s 6 ways to Sunday to look at and interpret but, that is the bottom line. Except for some reason “this year” has been an exception and then only with select players and teams
Got Crack Bama?
January 6th, 2011
2:14 pm
Alabama players have been involved in a series of arrests and off-the-field suspensions, with Saban acknowledging the need for better discipline and judgment earlier this year after two players were arrested within days of each other.
police began getting tips that Johns was involved in drug sales. Alabama was conducting spring football practice around the same time.
Undercover officers purchased cocaine from Johns five times in the last 1½ weeks, Snyder said, and they arrested him at a gas station near his off-campus apartment, where he lived alone.
Authorities who searched the apartment found about 10 grams of cocaine and ecstasy pills. Johns was charged with distributing cocaine and possessing the pills, Snyder said.
Snyder said Johns didn’t use his status as a football player to solicit business, but being a member of the Crimson Tide didn’t hurt, either.
“He was popular. A lot of people knew him,” he said.
Snyder said officers purchased drugs twice from Johns at the player’s apartment, once near campus and twice at the university.
BAMA dude
January 6th, 2011
2:15 pm
ARdawg
January 6th, 2011
2:10 pm
Bama dude
You can’t have it both ways there Dogg. When any player violates the NCAA rules there is always “lack of institutional control”.
You clearly need to brush up on NCAA rules if you want to have this debate. Player eligibility and institutional issues aren’t even the same committee. The reason USC was complicit while tOSU wasn’t is that the NCAA found a “look-the-other-way” culture at USC that allowed agents to have free run of the football program. Completely different than AJ or Pryor selling their stuff unbeknownst to the school.
Tifton man
January 6th, 2011
2:15 pm
Bama dude,
why are you so angry and bitter? I made my thoughts pretty clear. What exactly didn’t you understand?
Got Crack Bama?
January 6th, 2011
2:16 pm
ST. PETERSBURG, Florida — Former Tampa Bay Buccaneers first-round draft pick and Mobile, Alabama, native Keith McCants has been arrested in St. Petersburg and charged with possession of crack cocaine.
The 42-year-old McCants and a woman were stopped by police. Police say he pulled out of a strip club parking lot early Wednesday without stopping first.
Police spokesman Mike Puetz said officers saw a crack pipe in the center console of McCant’s SUV and found one piece of crack cocaine in the woman’s purse. Both were arrested.
The linebacker and defensive end was the fourth overall pick in the 1990 NFL Draft but was cut after three seasons. He was arrested on drug-related charges in Mobile, Ala., in May and June.
McCants was in jail Wednesday. Jail records listed no attorney information.
In June, McCants was arrested in Mobile on a charge of use and possession of drug paraphernalia, Mobile police said. It was at least the fourth arrest in less than a year for the former defensive player who starred at Murphy High School, then the University of Alabama before turning professional.
xancy
January 6th, 2011
2:17 pm
Bama dude has become the board punching bag it would seem
Good grief
January 6th, 2011
2:20 pm
As a UGA fan I don’t want to hear stories of what former players have done well after they left school. Now if they are actual graduates that they may be relevant, but the 1-3 year rent-a-player stuff that committed a crime 20 years later should be left out. I believe we had a player under Donnon’s watch that murdered somebody in Louisiana last year. So let’s keep it with what they did while in their respective schools.
DC
January 6th, 2011
2:21 pm
Man you spammers are having fun with bama dude today..dont think he deserves all that hate..
Got Crack Bama?
January 6th, 2011
2:21 pm
Just to put this in perspective: Jimmy Johns was arrested for distributing cocaine WHILE he played for the University Of Alabama! One of the star defensive players was a COCAINE DEALER!!! Still got that moral high ground Bama Dude (The Homo)????
m
January 6th, 2011
2:21 pm
How is the greatest (sic) conference in the history of the world just 3-4 in the bowl games and 0-2 with the ACC?????
sec=the all hype conference.
Got Crack Bama?
January 6th, 2011
2:23 pm
The governing body said it considered giving the Crimson Tide the most severe punishment — the death penalty — under the repeat violator rules for a recruiting scandal in which boosters were accused of paying money for high school players.
“They were absolutely staring down the barrel of a gun,” said Thomas Yeager, chairman of the infractions committee.
“These violations are some of the worst, most serious that have ever occurred,” he said.
BAMA dude
January 6th, 2011
2:23 pm
Angry and bitter? Me? Ha. I never knew what the original point was anywhere. The post that started the whole debate was essentially, “Well, UGA may stink right now but… but… Bama has to steal our players or they couldn’t beat us!” The whole conversation was a waste of time, frankly.
BAMA dude
January 6th, 2011
2:24 pm
*anyway.
Got Crack Bama?
January 6th, 2011
2:25 pm
Hey “Good Grief” Jimmy Johns was ON THE TEAM when he was arrested!!! How many other crack dealers played for the Tide?
ARdawg
January 6th, 2011
2:26 pm
Bama dude
Any and all infractions are the responsibility of the institution. Most universities have entire departments that do nothing else but insure that all NCAA rules and university policies are adhered to. You perhaps should do the reading up. Player eligilbility or ineligibility is determined by the university, not the NCAA. They only make rulings after the investigations and punish the university accordingly
Paul in RDU
January 6th, 2011
2:26 pm
ARDawg
OSU’s defense of the 5 players (”they were not adequately educated about the rules”) is practically an admission of “lack of institutional control” – especially when you consider that OSU claims that the players were adequately educated after November 2009. The 5 players (and possibly OSU) were obviously trying to get away with it.
Got Crack Bama?
January 6th, 2011
2:27 pm
Bama dude just needs an 8-ball and a happy meal and it will be all good…..
ARdawg
January 6th, 2011
2:29 pm
Paul in RDU
They did get away with it. I have no doubt if OSU were playing in a no-name bowl game. The suspensions would have started immediately after the ruling, as was the situation in AJ Green’s case
Got Crack Bama?
January 6th, 2011
2:32 pm
The Alabama football program continued a dubious streak Thursday night. Nick Saban is about to start his fourth season as head coach, and the Crimson Tide had a player suspended for NCAA transgressions for the fourth straight year.
It’ll take more time to research, but this could be some kind of record.
Marcell Dareus is headed to the penalty box this time. The defensive end from Huffman High School has been hit with a two-game suspension for what the press release said were “violations of NCAA preferential treatment and agent benefits rules.”
If you’re keeping score at home – or at the NCAA home office in Indianapolis – that makes eight Alabama players suspended for a variety of NCAA-related issues during the Saban era.
In 2007, his first season, five players were suspended for four games each for impermissible textbook charges. The Textbook Five were Glen Coffee, Antoine Caldwell, Marlon Davis, Marquis Johnson and Chris Rogers.
In other words, not a bunch of walk-ons.
That situation was part of a larger infractions case that involved 201 Alabama athletes in 16 sports and earned the program three years of NCAA probation. It also cost Saban five wins from that season that Alabama was forced to vacate, even though he inherited those players and that problem.
BAMA dude
January 6th, 2011
2:33 pm
ARdawg
January 6th, 2011
2:26 pm
Bama dude
Any and all infractions are the responsibility of the institution. Most universities have entire departments that do nothing else but insure that all NCAA rules and university policies are adhered to.
That is simply not true. They don’t hold universities accountable for things they shoudn’t reasonably have known, nor should they. And you’re half right about the eligiblity procedure. As soon as the school finds a potential eligibility problem, procedure is to suspend the player then apply for reinstatement from the NCAA. The NCAA will look at the current evidence and make their ruling. If a university follows protocol, like UGA did, then they will receive zero punishment. To Paul’s point, could it be that tOSU committed a violation? Sure. At this point that hasn’t been ruled on one way or another. It could be that they end up vacating their whole 2010 season, who knows? But for now, the individual player eligibility issue is the only one that;s been dealt with.
Got Crack Bama?
January 6th, 2011
2:33 pm
f you’re keeping score at home – or at the NCAA home office in Indianapolis – that makes eight Alabama players suspended for a variety of NCAA-related issues during the Saban era.
BAMA dude
January 6th, 2011
2:34 pm
ARdawg
January 6th, 2011
2:29 pm
Paul in RDU
They did get away with it. I have no doubt if OSU were playing in a no-name bowl game.
You believing it doesn’t make it so.
Jimmy Johns
January 6th, 2011
2:39 pm
They searched my pockets after I was arrested and couldn’t find any cash. Therefore the “alleged” Cocaine sales were ruled null and void. I was, however, put on top secret probation for 24 hours.
Good grief
January 6th, 2011
2:42 pm
Bama dude,
Well at least be honest, Bama does have to steal other states’ kids. Otherwise they couldn’t even field a team given the lack of talent that state produces each and every year.
ARdawg
January 6th, 2011
2:42 pm
BAMA dude
January 6th, 2011
2:34 pm
They did get away with it. I have no doubt if OSU were playing in a no-name bowl game.
You believing it doesn’t make it so.
We’ll never know, will we?
n
January 6th, 2011
2:44 pm
GT is the best!! We own you pups at every thing!!! Inteligenec, sports, women, fashion, you name it!!!
THWG!!!
BAMA dude
January 6th, 2011
2:46 pm
Good grief
January 6th, 2011
2:42 pm
Bama dude,
Well at least be honest, Bama does have to steal other states’ kids. Otherwise they couldn’t even field a team given the lack of talent that state produces each and every year.
Well, the “not fielding a team” bit is a little much but no question that they wouldn’t compete on the national stage with just in-state talent. So what? Last I checked none of Matthew Stafford, AJ Green, Aaron Murray, or Knowshon Moreno came from Georgia. Just seems like a silly conversation.
BAMA dude
January 6th, 2011
2:46 pm
ARDawg, like most conspiracy theories, it will never be proven.
Good grief
January 6th, 2011
2:47 pm
Oddly enough I actually have to agree with ARdawg for once. Of course OSU got away with it. Two SEC players who did substantially less were dealt with immediately, while OSU got to play their 6 “suspended” players in perhaps their biggest bowl game in 7 years.
So they absolutely got away with it and then some
monkey says
January 6th, 2011
2:47 pm
Bama Dude…
You cannot argue with these morons, you have a guy who spends his entire day cutting and pasting old articles about Alabama players who are not part of the Saban game plan, and have been out of the program for years. The intelligence level is not worth arguing with. Arguing high school football players committing to Alabama, populations of each state, NCAA violations on what various group is responsible for investigations, compliance, adminstration of penalites, appeals is something these folks only read what is music to their ears.
You have Auburn folks who think because the eligibility committee rules one thing the enforcement side is not involved with an ongoing investigation. The funny thing is UGA fans never want to be compared to Florida when it comes to population, recruiting players, and wins head to head annually. The best players on UGA’s squads have all come from South Carolina, North Carolina, Texas and Florida. Green, Stafford, Moreno were not from Georgia.
It is not worth your time or breath my brother.
Buckeye
January 6th, 2011
2:49 pm
AR Dawg,
A no name bowl such as the Liberty Bowl?
Good grief
January 6th, 2011
2:51 pm
Bama dude,
If I followed the threads right, I believe you were asked if you would give up all of your out of state talent from over the years if it meant you got to keep every instate kid that you wanted. The UGA fan that proposed that to you said he would gladly give up every out of state player they have ever received if they could do the same. Pretty interesting hypothetical and I would be curious to hear (read) your response.
monkey says
January 6th, 2011
2:51 pm
Anyone can sit here and type Jan Kemp, and all the arrest at UGA, Damon Evans, Joe Cribbs, Eric Ramsey, all day but grown ups have real jobs and are mature enough to walk away from losers and posers.
BAMA dude
January 6th, 2011
2:52 pm
tOSU didn’t get away with anything any more than UGA was punished. Neither happened.
Paul in RDU
January 6th, 2011
2:53 pm
BAMA Dude
I think that the key issues in the OSU case aer going to be when did the school know about the players violations – and when did the players “fess up”.
The “I didn’t know” defense seems to be popular at the moment. Up here in the Triangle we have a HC who didn’t know that his HS son’s tutor was helping out football players with assignments, that his Assistant HC had close financial ties to an agent, that what the NCAA classified as an agent (indeed the guy who bought AJ Green’s jersey) had free run of the weight training room. Right now it looks like Butch is going to skate.
monkey says
January 6th, 2011
2:54 pm
http://uga.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=645983
Jimmy Johns
January 6th, 2011
2:55 pm
If everybody would just keep their big traps shut about all this stuff, then the SEC and the NCAA will be more than happy to sweep it all under the rug and we won’t have to be bothered with it any more.
Damned Snitches!
ARdawg
January 6th, 2011
2:55 pm
Buckeye….exactly
Bama dude, Wrong again. You’re on a roll (pun intended) there
monkey says
January 6th, 2011
2:55 pm
Two Georgia football players went to the hospital with injuries early Saturday after a brawl at a downtown club, and other players may have been involved in the fight, according to police.
Bulldogs Donavon Baldwin and Marcus Dowtin apparently were hit in the head with bottles in the early-morning dust-up, which broke out of a crowded scene inside the Clayton Street bar The Library, Athens-Clarke police said.
At least two other Georgia players accompanied their injured teammates to St. Mary’s Hospital – along with former Bulldog Michael Lemon, who later was arrested outside the hospital for underage possession of alcohol. Police haven’t identified any other players involved in the bar fight, however.
Police don’t know how the fight started, who else was involved, or who may have assaulted Baldwin or Dowtin, though a club security guard told police that several UGA players had fought, said Athens-Clarke police Capt. Clarence Holeman.
No arrests have been made in connection with the brawl, though the team suspended Baldwin indefinitely Saturday night.
Officers found a crowded scene when they responded to a 1:45 a.m. call from bar employees – the sidewalk outside the Clayton Street club already was packed with people, and more began flooding out when the bar closed at 2 a.m., Holeman said.
Officers didn’t see Baldwin and Dowtin at the club and didn’t know they were hurt until St. Mary’s employees called soon after to report the injuries to police, as they’re required to do, Holeman said.
At the time, the officers’ main concern, and that of the club owners, was to break up the fight and disperse the crowd, he said.
Baldwin, a junior free safety who faces a one-game suspension for a DUI arrest in January, told an officer at the hospital that he didn’t see who threw the bottle that cut his neck and ear, according to police.
Dowtin, a freshman linebacker, told the officer he fell, but earlier had told a nurse he was hit in the mouth with a bottle, according to the officer’s report.
Investigators now will have to piece together the night’s events. They’re hoping someone will come forward with information, Holeman said.
“That’s something we’re going to have to back-track,” he said. “There’s an aggravated assault that happened to (Baldwin), so the case will be followed up.”
BAMA dude
January 6th, 2011
2:56 pm
Good grief
January 6th, 2011
2:51 pm
Bama dude,
If I followed the threads right, I believe you were asked if you would give up all of your out of state talent from over the years if it meant you got to keep every instate kid that you wanted.
Well, considering you only get 25 schollys a year, I would think you’d have to take that on a year by year basis. But I would think that anyone outside of those “big three” states would probably prefer to recruit nationally vs. take what they can get from home. Easier to find 25 top notch kids in the other 49 states than in just yours, I think.
Contractor
January 6th, 2011
2:56 pm
I agree with the analysis that one had money actually changing hands, and the other was the idea of money changing hands. College athletes know not to take money or gifts well before they come to college, so a proclaimed high standard of academics school like Ohio State shouldn’t try to claim they didn’t warn their athletes, and that they didn’t know any better. Ever heard of Reggie Bush or Florida State in the late 90’s? They were well aware of this rule.. You’re gonna tell me Ohio State has never told athletes before this year that taking money and gifts was illegal for college athletes? Please.
My questions to anyone who cares to answer is…What if Cecil Newton accepted money and Cameron “didn’t know anything about it”, like they said Cameron didn’t know anything about the initial solicitation of money? I think he knew, but that’s my opinion. But does the legal circumstances still fall on the player if his family is dirty behind the scenes and he doesn’t know anything about it?