Survey says most fans want a playoff. So?


Nobody asked me but:


This just in: A new poll says that 63 percent of college football fans want to scrap the BCS system and institute a playoff system like college basketball.

Well, duh!!!!!!!

This same polling group found that 95 percent of the people surveyed believe that the sun rises in the East. Okay, I made that up.

I’m not trying to be a smart aleck here but what exactly is the purpose of such a survey? So 63 percent of the 1,849 people surveyed by Quinnipiac University want to have some kind of college football playoff. They are not asked how to accomplish it, who gets to play in it, where the games will be played and when the games are played. They just know that they want it.

I don’t understand the point of such a survey. If 63 percent of the people want something, does that mean it is supposed to happen? What are we supposed to do with that information?

I imagine 100 percent of those same people surveyed would like to buy a Cadillac for $10,000. But I don’t think General Motors is going to start selling them for that.

Here is my point. I want a four-team playoff. The teams should be seeded with 1 playing 4 and 2 playing 3 on New Year’s Day at two of the BCS bowls. A week later the two winners will play for the national championship.

Let’s do a survey on that proposal or give people several playoff options and choose the one they like. That would make some sense.

I just don’t like mindless surveys that don’t advance the ball.


Mike Leach is done at Texas Tech: It didn’t take Mike Leach’s lawyer long to start calling Craig James a helicopter (hovering) dad and James’s son, Adam, a disgruntled kid in need of some discipline. Both of those things may turn out to be true. But in this case those claims are also irrelevant.

If the facts of this case are not in dispute, and it doesn’t appear that they are, Adam James was isolated in a dark room after suffering a concussion. Leach’s side came up with a doctor’s letter saying the kid was not harmed by the action. Again, it’s irrelevant. You don’t have to be harmed to have been treated improperly.

There is no rationalization from Leach’s side that will save him. Leach was asked to meet with the parents, explain his actions, and apologize. He refused, leaving the university wide open to litigation.

Work rule No. 1: When the boss asks you to apologize for the good of the company or the good of the institution, you apologize. If not, expect to be cut loose.

There will be a hearing today in Lubbock. Leach wants a judge to reinstate him to coach the Alamo Bowl on Saturday. In my opinion, if the judge grants Leach’s request, Texas Tech will fire him on the spot with a generous severance package. Either way, Leach is done at Texas Tech.


It was a bad loss for Miami: How many times have you seen a team take the opening possession for a touchdown and then lose the game? Miami basically did that last night in the Champs Sports Bowl. The Hurricanes ran the kickoff back for a touchdown and were called for a dumb block in the back penalty near the 10-yard line. The Hurricanes scored anyway. But then Wisconsin, who thought the weather was downright balmy in Orlando while the Hurricanes were shivering near the sideline heaters, just started grinding and took a 17-7 lead at halftime on the way to a 20-14 win.

This was a bad loss for Miami. It would have meant a lot for the Hurricanes to get to 10 wins in Randy Shannon’s third year as coach. QB Jacory Harris had a bad wheel and it clearly affected his play.

It was also a bad loss for the ACC, which is now 1-3 in bowl games.


There is no doubt. Eric Berry will turn pro: Tennessee coach Lane Kiffin has been saying for weeks, really for the entire season, that safety Eric Berry is going to turn pro after Thursday’s Chick-fil-A Bowl. The fact is that Berry, from Fairburn, is ready for the league and is going to be a great pro. He has nothing left to prove at this level and given his various injuries, it is time to move on.

And don’t forget this:  Having a Tennessee player stand up with Commissioner Roger Goodell on the first day of the NFL Draft never hurts recruiting.


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173 comments Add your comment


December 30th, 2009
10:52 am

For once m is correct in that a 4 team does not fix the problem, it will make it worse.

‘07 UGA would be left out of the top 4
‘08 Utah would be out in the cold.
‘09 5 teams would say they deserve

Pushing it out to 8 teams would take away from the regular season. Further to get 8 teams the BCS conf. would require their conf champ to be included puls 2 at large which would go to ND if qualified and the best of the MWC or WAC.

IMO keep it the way it is. The system gets it correct for more often than it doesn’t.

If you do go playoff take the top 6 using the current rankings formulas. The top 2 get a bye.

Under the 6 team system, teams will fight to be in the top and continue to schedule OOC games wanting the bye week.


December 30th, 2009
10:53 am

The undeniable truth is Football Playoff = less revenue = fewer athletic options for real student athletes.

If you’re still in denial, just watch how little revenue this year’s Fiesta bowl generates.


December 30th, 2009
10:54 am

8 TEAM FORMAT- so you need 7 bowls (Rose,Sugar,Orange and Fiesta host championship every 4 years. the other 3 years it has one quarterfinal and two semi-finals) The other 3 quarterfinals are selected on a rotational basis from the other bowls that meet attendance,financial and logistical criteria.

6 conference champions and 2 at large teams


December 30th, 2009
10:55 am

Eric, the BCS conf. have to agree to it and to do so they would require getting their slice of the money. It won’t happen if they don’t get in.


December 30th, 2009
11:00 am


6 conference champions and 2 at large teams is the nightamre scenario.

Under that system their is no incentive for UGA to go out to Okie St, Az St, etc, no incentive for Texas vs. Ohio St or USC. What few big OOC games we have go away.

Further it gets harder for the Fresno St, Boises, Utahs of the world to schedule BCS teams as their is no incentive.

NCAA will turn into the NFL where starters are pulled in late season games just as the Colts did in order to keep them healthy for the playoff. As a UGA fan if UGA had a trip to the SECCG locked up I would not want to see starters in against GT. A BCS title run is far more important.


December 30th, 2009
11:01 am

Tony, I agree with others: An Eight (8) team playoff is needed. BAD politics will STILL be too influential with only 4 teams. Use the bowl system for the first two rounds.

6 BCS conference champs, and two at-larges, with some added conditions based on BCS rankings.

Oh, … wait. That’s EXACTLY what jim just said! I agree with jim ….


December 30th, 2009
11:03 am

Think, Is also correct playoff = less money.

Do these MAC and Sun Conf. teams get a bowl around Christmas. Sure they are eligible but will the bowl be around? IMO it will not. How much do you hear about the NIT in basketball when the NCAA tournament ratings have been falling.


December 30th, 2009
11:06 am

College football, where ALL the little kids get a trophy at the end of the year. After all, you wouldnt wanna hurt the little players feelings by actually NOT rewarding a .500 team now would you!? Ask TCU, Boise State, and Cinn how “Meaningfull” the regular season was this year! It didnt mean SHT!!
How could a playoff system diminish the regular season, when the regular season is already pointless for 95% of the teams!??


December 30th, 2009
11:08 am


Under your system. CPJ pulls Nesbitt so he does not get hurt against UGA, if he even plays.

UGA wins by a few TDs against the GT walkons and JV squad.

Is that what you want?


December 30th, 2009
11:10 am

For all of you naysayers on the playoff system, ask yourself this question: How do they do it in the rest of all college football divisions? No problems at all. Just copy the other divisions. Case closed!


December 30th, 2009
11:11 am


Those bowls pointless? Ask the coach and AD who are cashing in those BCS bowl checks.


December 30th, 2009
11:15 am

Peemoan, Ask youself which NCAA sport pays for the others?

Ask yourself why have NCAA tourney ratings been falling over the past decade?

Ask yourself why the SEC and ND have inked such a big TV contracts?

Hey Tony...check this out

December 30th, 2009
11:16 am

Here’s the best playoff scenario….Have the SEC champ vs the ACC champ in the Sugar bowl. The Big 12 vs the Big East in the Orange bowl. The Pac 10 vs the Big 10 in the Rose Bowl and the 2 higheast ranked teams besides the champions of the big 6 conferences play in the Fiesta bowl as at-large teams. The winner of the Sugar plays the winner of the Orange, the winner of the Rose plays the winner of the Fiesta…The winner of those games plays for the Championship. What’s wrong with that scenario?


December 30th, 2009
11:21 am

4 teams is pointless. 10 team with BCS seeded 1 & 2 with byes. 3 & 4 play at home (seasons means something now) Seed 5 & 6 plays at neutral bowl site (in geographical area for higest seed) . After 1st round the next 4 games are at traditional bowl power sites (Orange, Fiesta, Sugar, Rose) Semi is in highest seeds power site and final is in BCS rotation site as it is now. And why will this not work? It will and the bowls and schools will make loads more money which is all they care about anyway.


December 30th, 2009
11:26 am

Until a playoff is implemented college football’s postseason will remain a joke. Nobody cares about 98% of the bowl games anyways. A playoff would bring excitement, and legitimacy to the eventual champion.


December 30th, 2009
11:27 am


Ron Mexico

December 30th, 2009
11:33 am

All those with “simple” playoff solutions are only showing their simple-mindedness. It’s a little more complex than ol’ Huck and Tom saying “C’mon over ya’ll, have fun whitewarshin’ this here fence while we wrangle them details of that ol’ playoff problem.”

You can’t even get consensus on 4, 8, 16, 32, or 120 teams in the playoffs… but, hey, it’s SOOO simple…

Sam Houston

December 30th, 2009
11:39 am

Everyone complains that a play-off would be too many games for the major colleges to play, unlike the small colleges. Remember when everyone use to play 10 games? Whose idea was it to go to more games for our fragile big boys? I am sure it had nothing to do with bringing in more money, because this is an amateur sport. All of the decisions made considering a play-off has to do with MONEY. Having a true championship won on the field is never considered.

[...] There is no doubt. Eric Berry will turn pro: Tennessee coach Lane Kiffin has been saying for weeks, really for the entire season, that safety Eric Berry is going to turn pro after Thursday’s Chick-fil-A Bowl. The fact is that Berry, from Fairburn, is ready for the league and is going to be a great pro. He has nothing left to prove at this level and given his various injuries, it is time to move on. And don’t forget this: Having a Tennessee player stand up with Commissioner Roger Goodell on the first day of the NFL Draft never hurts recruiting. Survey says most fans want a playoff. So? | Mr. College Football [...]


December 30th, 2009
11:41 am

We need a playoff – NCAA DI football is the only sport without one. In addition, it is the only NCAA sport to never declare a national champion (AP, BCS, UPI, poll, declared but not a NCAA champion-ever). Not much would have to change. But you have to have 16 teams in the playoff to include all 11 conference champions and make it a true national championship (any team in DI finishing undefeated in this scenario is national champion). You could get all this done by January 1st if you desired.

1. 11 conference champions and next 5 highest BCS ranked teams in playoffs.
2. Top 8 BCS ranked conference champions or independents are top 8 seeds in BCS Rankings order.
3. Seeds 9-16 determined based on BCS rankings with the following exceptions.
* Conference standings precede BCS Rankings
* Same conference teams meet at latest possible moment (1v4, 2v3)
4. Higher seed hosts in 1st round, Quarterfinals, and Semifinals.
5. All bowl eligible, non-playoff teams eligible for bowls (playoff teams selected after loss in playoffs).
6. One bowl hosts 3rd place game New Year’s Eve, Championship New Year’s Day.

One bowl hosts 3rd/Champ games so that all teams know their bowl destinations and have time for them and fans to make arrangements, get tickets, etc. To finish by January 1st, we need a regular season where all teams are subject to a 14 week regular season with all games (conferences have either 2 bye weeks or 1 bye week and conference championship) finished by Thanksgiving weekend. Here is how it would have played out this year using final regular season BCS standings and 2009 Conference champions (thanks to

December 5th
Alabama* 39-3 East Carolina
Iowa 34-27 Georgia Tech*
Boise State* 27-24 Penn State
TCU* 27-0 Central Michigan
Cincinnati* 44-24 LSU
Oregon* 30-24 Virginia Tech
Florida 26-10 Ohio State*
Texas* 38-16 Troy

December 12th
Alabama* 41-0 Iowa
TCU* 58-3 Boise St
Cincinnati* 26-13 Oregon
Florida 20-13 Texas*

December 19th
Alabama* 31-6 TCU
Florida 24-22 Cincinnati*

* – Indicates the higher seed and host

December 31st
TCU v Cincinnati (Third Place Game)

January 1st
Alabama v Florida (Championship)

Both of these games hosted by a bowl. I would say Rose Bowl but I think, in this scenario, they want the Oregon v Ohio State match since both teams lost out.

I would tell you how it finishes but we have to wait another couple of days! Whatever it takes, we need a playoff!! We need journalists, talk show hosts, Game Day hosts, to start demanding it, talk about it every day from the last regular season game through the last bowl game. It needs to happen!

Denver Dog

December 30th, 2009
11:42 am

Amazing that a sytem derived from polls now shows polls as part of its reasoning for a playoff. It is all a bunch of bunk until you figure out what to do with the ACC. Here is a conference which gets a free pass in, but has terrible teams. How do you handle that? If Mountain West were to get an automatic, would all this still be talked about. If Boise played more than one game every 3 years, would this still be talked about. Solve it on the field they say. How? which undefeated team gets to play another undefeated team and when, and where? Lots of questions, very few answers.

Miami proved the ACC point again.

Mike Leach has the media after him, and he doesn’t seem to be much of the Bear Bryant, Gene Stallings type.

Berry has been getting paid for years, now it will just be official


December 30th, 2009
11:43 am

ron mexico – first off, that’s the name you’re going with? Seriously? That reference is really old.

Anyway, a playoff involving only conference champions eliminates any legit complaints about not getting invited. If the 8 best conference champs are invited the one left out had no shot at winning anyway. Quick, name the 9th best conference champion this year? Think they have any chance at upsetting 3 of the other champs?


December 30th, 2009
11:43 am

The NFL’s regular season is hardly irrelevant. Look at the highest rated shows on TV this fall. All have been NFL games.

GT fan in MS

December 30th, 2009
11:43 am

I’m not sure the idea to take the top 8 ranked teams would be best. Last year we had 3 teams in the top 8 from the B12 (UT, OU, TT) and 2 lost in their bowl games. Would we have gotten the best 8 teams for a playoff simply by taking the top 8 ranked? Often times the rankings are a complete joke and not exposed until bowl season. Look at the B10 the last 3 years. Or the ACC or BigE.
The fans couldn’t travel from city to city following their team through multiple bowl games during a playoff. Who’s got that much vacation time and disposable income to travel, potentially cross country, every weekend to sell out these games? The games would have to be hosted at the higher seeds just like in FCS and the NFL with a finale at a neutral site.


December 30th, 2009
11:44 am

Its not that difficult. How about a 12 team playoff. 12 FBS conferences. Each conference champion gets in. Top 4 get a bye in the first round. Or you could do 16 with 4 at large bids. With a system like this at least every team would have a chance to win the championship and teams would have to actually earn it. The way it is now its pretty hard to even call it a championship.


December 30th, 2009
11:47 am

Selection Committee
Works in college b-ball.


December 30th, 2009
11:47 am

Tony – I respect your writing as much as anyone, but you are dead wrong on the issue of a playoff. As many people on this blog have noted above, a four team playoff just isn’t enough. There are many ways to get a playoff system in place that will lead to a true NCAA National Championship in Division I football. I happen to think a 16 team playoff is feasible. An 8 team playoff is a no-brainer. A four team playoff is simply a tease and will create more ill-will than the current BCS format. The “and one” system you espouse is simply inadequate.

And, btw, do we really have 119 programs playing at the “highest level”. If we cut that in half (which it should be), then a playoff makes even more sense.

Just an opinion on an otherwise “pointless” blog. hh


December 30th, 2009
11:50 am

why would they pull starters when if you lose, you drop and risk not making the playoffs? that makes no sense.


December 30th, 2009
11:54 am

Then do this…take the top 8. if a conference from the big 6 isn’t represented in the top 8, and if they have a team ranked in the top 12, then that team would get the 8th seed. if you don’t have a team ranked in the top 12, you don’t deserve to be in a bcs bowl anyway.

Billy G

December 30th, 2009
11:57 am

I too would love a playoff, but it does not matter how many people do. The NCAA is a business and some of the largest revenue producing products are the bowl games. So you want them to give up money just to have a true National Champion? Remember, these are the same people who allow you to watch basketball on more networks than you can count during the season, but come the field of 64, you have one network that dictates the game in your area for you to watch, unless you subscribe to a certain satellite company and want to pay additionally for the other games. No regard for the fans, just go with the highest bidder. And they NCAA wonders where the players get the idea they should make some money as well. Attitude is a reflection of leadership.


December 30th, 2009
11:58 am

Thick ankles, huh Tony? The Badgers looked pretty good dominating a supposedly superior Miami team (the score wasn’t nearly indicative of the dominance). I don’t expect much objectivity coming from your SEC-centric perspective, but someday it would be refreshing to see/hear you differentiate between “team” and “speed”. The latter does not always mean superior.

Blue Gill

December 30th, 2009
11:59 am

To hell with a playoff system. Let’s just have 68 bowl games instead of 34.

War Jacket

December 30th, 2009
12:04 pm

I wouldn’t change the system at all. I don’t like the BB playoff system, it renders the conference tournies basically meaningless. Plus, playoffs don’t necessarily determine the best team. They determine the best team on a given day.


December 30th, 2009
12:04 pm

I’m a Texas Tech alumni, so I follow the program as much as one possibly can. The issue at Texas Tech is much deeper than it appears on the surface. This may have started with a disgruntled kid unhappy at his treatment, but it’s no longer about Craig James and his son. It’s really a big storm that’s been building for years now between Leach and the administration. There’s been a power struggle for years between two sides that despise each other. Sure, Leach is a cash cow for the program and the best coach the school has ever had, but it’s a dysfunctional relationship that was destined to end sooner or later, you simply cannot continue with that kind of working relationship. No matter what, the program and the university is always bigger than one man, and those two things aren’t going anywhere. As a fan and alum, I support Leach and don’t think he did anything wrong, but it’s clearly time for him to leave. I hope he’s vindicated in this ordeal so his future job opportunities aren’t limited by what I think is an attempt to smear his character. The fault for the dysfunctional relationship is everyone’s, from Leach all the way up to the board of regents. The reality though is that the football coach is the most replaceable person when compared to the chancellor, president and board or regents.


December 30th, 2009
12:05 pm

An 8 team playoff would be good…generally anybody outside the Top 8 are NOT national championship caliber. You could still keep all the minor bowls as a rewards for the other teams who did not make the playoffs. 16 teams would involved too many games and is not needed. If you go back in history and look at the final 8 teams in the polls history will bear out that an 8 team playoff would do the job on the field.
Mike Leach is a nut,but a great offensive mind, but at the same time his arrogance does not work well in a college environment.

Finally TONY…give credit where credit is due…Wisconsin dominated the line of scrimmage last night on both sides of the ball and physically dominated Miami and Randy Shannon is a good assistant and that is about it.


December 30th, 2009
12:05 pm

Come on people. Any time a write or wants to generate email or blog posts, he/she just rolls out the playoff piece. It is not going to happen unless the presidents get a clear message the fans are upset. That means stop going to games and writing sponsors that you are not going to buy products advertised. It is a simple solution, but it is not going to happen.

For the record, I am lukewarm at best to a playoff. For the record, we have a playoff, it just involves 2 teams. No matter what system is used, a decision is going to be made and a team(s) is going to make a sound argument as to why it should be in the hunt. I would prefer a post bowl game BCS title game.

T. B. Shirey

December 30th, 2009
12:06 pm

A playoff? We can’t even agree on which teams should be in a 64 team basketball playoff. How would we ever agree on which teams should be in a 4-8-16 teams playoff? Put in TCU, Cincinnati or Boise State and leave out Florida, Georgia Tech or Ohio State? How long would there be arguments about that.

I have read my bible and the US Constitution from cover to cover and no where can I find a guarantee that we are guaranteed a “national football champion.”


December 30th, 2009
12:15 pm

Here’s the solution to the playoff/bowl mess. Eliminate the BCS and return to the old system. This way there is more than one meaningful bowl game. While we are at it lets get rid of about half the bowls. My ideas:

1. No city can host more than one bowl game
2. The minimum number of wins to qualify for a bowl is increased to seven maybe even eight.
3. No city that has hosted a bowl game and disbanded it can be qualified for a new game.
4. No conference tie-ins for second and third tier bowl games.


December 30th, 2009
12:16 pm

FCS has a playoff system where the 8 conference champions get an automatic bid and there are 8 at large bids. Can someone explain to me why a similar system wouldnt work in FBS? It seems so simple, just have 12 automatic bids and 4 at large bids. Every FBS team would have a chance to win it all instead of the current system where only 10-15 teams have a chance every year. Plus it would make rankings fairly meaningless which would be a good thing.

Steven R Daugherty

December 30th, 2009
12:17 pm

You guys will be sorry when I am elected King Of The World. No playoffs, in fact no BCS title game – I’ll blow up a bunch of these sorry 6-6 vs. 7-5 bowl games and eliminate corporate names in the bowls – we’re returning to 1969 baby. Back when the men were men and the ships were made out of wood. And the AP writers voted on who was #1, and that was all there was to it. Except for the arguing during the offseason, which is ultimately what it is all about, right?

Paul's Johnson

December 30th, 2009
12:20 pm

Some good takes on T-Tech situation. I agree with Archie that this is not just an isolated situation. It was apparent heading into this season that Leach’s relationship with his administration was strained. I’m no expert about the medical way this situation was handled, but I agree with Tony that refusing to meet with the James family to even discuss the situation was dumb. It’s like Leach is asking to be fired.


December 30th, 2009
12:21 pm

Honestly, I’d rather go back to the old bowl format instead of the current BCS system.

Sugar-Bama vs Iowa
Orange-Texas vs TCU
Rose-Oregon vs OSU
Cotton-Boise vs Iowa
Fiesta-Cincy vs Florida

What’s the difference?


December 30th, 2009
12:22 pm


December 30th, 2009
12:47 pm


They would pull starters because it is a non ACC game and they locked the ACC division.

An 8 team playoff will involve 6 BCS conf champs and 2 at large bids most likely 2 of the 3, ND, or the champ from the MWC or WAC.

A playoff between the top 8 in rankings will not take place due to politics and money.


December 30th, 2009
12:57 pm


Paul Johnson does full contact, full speed practices. Even skill players get hit alot in practice. You really think he would be the type to sit players in fear of injury? He could have done that this year when Nesbitt got hurt in the UGA game. He could have kept him out the rest of the game to get ready for the ACC championship but he didnt.

Dixie Normus

December 30th, 2009
1:00 pm


Playoffs – I like your idea of a 4 team playoff, but I like an 8 team playoff better. Basically just use the BCS bowls as the first round. The season would be 1 week longer but that’s no big deal, the Alabamas will cancel classes that week anyway.

Leach – I couldn’t disagree with you more as I think this whole thing is being blown WAY out of proportion. Adam “I got put in a dark room all by myself, and I got scared” James is a whiney @$$ pu$$y and Craig James is a crappy ESPN analyst looking to make a buck off his son, and they should both be regarded as such. Probably the reason Leach had to resort to such a weird disciplinary measure is because whenever he chewed the kid out he would go off into a corner and suck his thumb for the rest of practice. I mean, seriously, this kid probably wets the bed at night before each game because he’s so worried about getting hit by “those big meanies” on the other team. The problem with society is these losers get lip service by idiots in the media which only encourages the behavior (in them and in others).

Berry – Why are we still talking about this guy? He had 1 great season… last year.


December 30th, 2009
1:33 pm

I love seeing people say a playoff would render the regular season meaningless. I wonder what Cincinnati, TCU and Boise State think about that. If you play a sport and win all of your games, aren’t you supposed to be able to play for the championship? The regular season is already “meaningless” once a team loses twice. The bowls are all nothing more than exhibition games with extra practice. If you think there’s some “momentum” BS that comes from winning a bowl, recall that Georgia whooped Hawaii the year before being named preseason No. 1. How did that work out?

Whopper Dawg

December 30th, 2009
1:53 pm


You are correct, in fact, in many ways the contenders for the national championship are decided before the season with the pre-season polls. Imagine for example, if Cinncy and TCU were ranked one and two pre-season, and for some reason Alabama and Texas were ranked outside of the top ten. Who would be playing for it?

The BCS is not about football, it is about money and everyone knows it. The best you can say about the winner of the Bama Texas game is that they are the winner of the Bama Texas game. In no way does it prove they are the best team in the nation. In no way.


December 30th, 2009
1:56 pm

I like Tony’s idea of a 4 team playoff. The only difference is I would make is that the semifinals would be played around the 20th or so. Then the championship game would be 2 weeks after that.

Those 3 games would rotate among six bowls every two years (e.g. Rose, Cotton, Orange one year, Fiesta, Sugar, Peach the next). Within those three bowls, they would take turn on who hosted the national championship game. So each bowl would get it once every 6 years. The semifinals would be played at the bowl that was closest to the highest ranked team. The rest of the bowls, including the 3 listed above who were not part of the championship that year, would get whoever they could get. There would be no automatic conference berths into the top 4 – it would be a poll decided by one third human and two thirds computer.

This would limit the number of games any team could possibly play to 15.


December 30th, 2009
2:06 pm