Hawks Fans: Internal improvement suggestions

It’s that time of year again, as if you needed to be told. Offseason doldrums. Well, if you’re a Hawks fan, that is. With the Conference Finals yet to be finished, and therefore the NBA Finals yet to begin, the draft is ordinarily the next topic of conversation. However, there doesn’t seem like much use in talking draft prospects since the Hawks don’t have a first round pick. They do have a second round pick, but unless it’s a very deep draft or Sund and his team are hot on the trail of some talented foreign prospect that nobody else knows about (think Pape Sy, part II), then there’s probably very little that’s noteworthy in the way of change to the team.

What about free agency and trade? With the CBA gumming things up, and constant investment/sale chatter in connection with the team and Phillips Arena, there is no telling what can be expected. Rick Sund’s administration keeps things close to the vest, so there would probably be few rumors to speculate on anyway. And again…the CBA looms large. What does all of this mean? It may not be wise to expect the Hawks to make any major changes to the team. Maybe not even some that would seriously change the core, something that the Hawks don’t seem inclined to do, as it is. There’s nothing left but internal improvement. So, at the suggestion of our very own Astro Joe, I ask YOU -  

Which Hawks players can help this team become more than it was this season, and how should they go about it? Just to get this party started, here are a few thoughts of my own:

Larry Drew

There is no substitute for experience in the big seat (also known as the hot seat). However, Drew is still up against a wall. Many are calling for a championship caliber head coach, and while Drew had the Hawks playing competitively and much better in the playoffs, but he wasn’t able to get the team past a third straight second round playoff exit. Many think that a better head coach could or will solve all the problems with player performance on the court. Drew is likely to be staying employed (much to the chagrin of some), so his best bet is to accomplish some of the things that people say he can’t do. First, he could stand to learn how to let his players play through early foul trouble. Drew’s tendency to snatch a guy like Al Horford out if he gets two fouls in the first half is a momentum robbing move, and often affects the player’s ability to get going. Second, he needs to figure out a firm rotation that works, and redefine some roles. Gee, where have we heard THAT before? Third, if all the guys who are here now, remain here, then Drew needs to find a better way of coaxing the best out of them. That might mean tweaks to his offense, which we still are unable to identify clearly.

Al Horford

Simply put, Horford needs to get back to his roots. Even if he ends up playing more power forward than center for the remainder of his career, there is no reason not to play tough. Horford spent the first three years of his career as an ever present double double threat and a guy who most frontcourts preferred to not have to deal with. Horford had a rough postseason performance and while he did average a double double (a fact that seems to continuously elude some of us), he didn’t look like the guy who had just established a career high in field goal percentage and points per game during the regular season. Al needs to spend some offseason time with somebody who can help him with his back-to-the-basket game. That, and maybe he should start eating boiled leather for breakfast. Tough is where it’s at.

Jeff Teague

The playoff series against Chicago made Jeff Teague look like the legitimate starting point guard prospect that we had hoped he would become. While he may not have the job in the bag for certain, his chances are better than good. The first thing Teague needs to do is maintain a professional work ethic and attitude. One thing bothered me about his reason for playing well, and that’s this snippet from AJC Beat writer Michael Cunningham, which I think a lot of people may have missed, or maybe misunderstood:

To Teague, the difference has not just been playing more; it’s knowing the Hawks need him to play more.

“I would say that’s the difference,” he said. “During the season I didn’t know if I was going to play one game and if I was going to sit the next. Now, knowing that I’m going to get an opportunity to go in every game, I just try to focus and give a good effort.”

Ok, now that seems like an easy “like shooting fish in a barrel” shot at Larry Drew, doesn’t it? And we can go on and on about how much Drew should or shouldn’t have played Teague during the regular season. But the point here is that Teague can’t come into camp with this attitude.  If he does, then he doesn’t need to be the starting point guard. A professional player needs to go at it hard and heavy regardless of how much he can “expect” to play. I understand what the young man is saying and why, but if you’re not always mentally prepared to play….then how are you ever going to be ready to play? Thankfully, Teague was ready to go against Chicago. But now, he needs to bring that verve every night if he wants to run this team. He needs to come to camp READY to play, not EXPECTING to play.

Oh yeah…and he needs to work with a shooting coach. Give that young man a better jumper and we’ll be looking at a very potent player who might be the best point guard this team has seen since Mookie Blaylock.

So there you have a few suggestions of my own. YOUR turn!

 

Big Ray, Hawks Fan Nest Blog

203 comments Add your comment

doc

May 24th, 2011
7:55 am

writer’s block gone. nice start.

briefly:

beef it up josh and al, hit the weight room and give us 10 pounds more of muscle and less body fat. goes for jj, too. think jj and josh lost that lean look.

what wrinkle will jj add, it is time for him to be as proactive as josh is during the off season.

marvin needs to go theyellow brick road route and find a heart. passion and showing it is games in a focused way is what i see he needs to fins over the summer. he probably needs new real estate more than josh but in the cba year i think it is better to batten down the hatches than to make whole sale manuevers.

Jerry West

May 24th, 2011
7:56 am

doc

May 24th, 2011
7:59 am

heh heh deservedly no mr west as you probably didnt even rad it much less comment, ;-)

back to the weight room or you too

i accept the cudos.

Samuel

May 24th, 2011
8:07 am

There’s too many jump shot shooting players on the team. You don’t see alot of tuff blue collar guys who can go to the hoop. We need an effective center and a Superstar on that team who’s better than Joe Johnson. It’s way too much dribbling going on and not enough consistent passing.

Jerry West

May 24th, 2011
8:14 am

It’s kudos, good sir, and I extend them to you. Back to the matters at hand:

Let’s get Al a big man coach. Clifford Ray maybe, or I hear Kareem’s available.

Re-sign Damien and start him at the 3. Sic him on the opponent’s best wing on a nightly basis. And send him to the Bruce Bowen School of Defensive Spot Up Shooters this summer. We might be small up front, but I like his energy and scrappiness. I think he’ll rebound at a better clip than Ol’ Marv with additional minutes.

Move Marvin to the bench and get him more looks with the 2nd unit (which will be comprised of him, Kirk, and Zaza primarily).

Make sure Nick Van Exel teaches Teague that it’s ok to get some lift and arc on your jumper.

I would say hire yours truly, El Logo, as a consultant, but I kinda got such a gig already.

Tramarci

May 24th, 2011
8:18 am

I think it starts with Coach Drew. He has to get more out of players like Hilton Armstrong. Let’s face it, Jason Collins is too old and slow to start for a whole season. I think we should start Hilton Armstrong or Zaza. Hilton is young and has a lot of potential. Someone should be working with him right now. We also have Magnum Rolle on the roster. Get those guys (Hilton,Magnum) in the weight room, work on there post moves and we have our front court.

Willie Coyote

May 24th, 2011
8:23 am

I’d like to see Josh trim down a little and work on his conditioning so he can be up to the constant motion they are supposed to be running with their offense. He seemed to labor with fatigue at times. We need him (if he isn’t traded). Also, stop trying to prove people wrong and play the way the team needs you.

Get another Center. Zaza proved himself to be a valuable backup energy guy. We need more team size and a starting center would provide that.

Joe needs to rediscover his shot and be the perimeter threat we need. If Teague handles the point, that should leave Joe open for more catch & shoot opportunities instead of him trying to create his own shot.

LD, hold people accountable like you say you will; that includes your stars.

I cosign your assessment of Teague and Al.

Marvin needs to bet comfortable with coming off the bench. He also needs to find where his jumper is hiding.

Tramarci

May 24th, 2011
8:26 am

I also think this teams just needs more time in Larry Drew’s version of the Princeton Offense. It’s a complicated offense to run. You have to know each others habits. Each player has to read the next player. That’s takes years to do to perfection. It’s about letting them gel. Keep these guys together and they will gel. If reserves like Hilton Armstrong step up, they will have a solid team for years to come.

JoJo the Godfather

May 24th, 2011
8:26 am

LD/Sund – It’s time to define roles. Not for every minute of every game, but at least tell Josh & Al where the bulk of their minutes will come. IMO, it should be Josh at the 3 and Al at the 4.

Teague & Sy – Both are a little injury prone and it couldn’t hurt to add some muscle. And, of course, both need to work on their jumpers.

Al & Josh – Post moves, post moves, post moves!!! Josh is going to need to drop some pounds to take some pressure off those knees, and both need to add some upper body strength.

Joe – Work on that 3-pt shot.

Marvin – He needs to know right now that he’s lost his starting spot, and if he wants it back, he’s going to have to earn it. He needs to be a 40% 3-pt shooter. He gets mostly uncontested looks from behind the line and still shoots a sub-par %. His mechanics are too good to not be a better shooter. It’s got to be mental.

Pachulia – Keep up that Rocky routine from last summer. Demand more playing time by giving a consistent effort every night.

Rolle – Watch tapes of Dennis Rodman, hit the weight room, and drink a bunch of those weight-gain protein shakes.

Hinrich – Go sit down in LD’s office and ask him what the heck he’s trying to accomplish on offense, and then help communicate that to the team and us fans.

This team needs a starting defensive-minded center, a shooter off the bench, and some end of the bench depth at PG and C, but unfortunately, we have no money, only a late 2nd round pick, and we own the rights to two euro combo guards that don’t look too promising.

Tramarci

May 24th, 2011
8:32 am

We finally have depth at every position. We are good on bodies. Now we need better coaching. Not saying fire Larry Drew, but he Has to get the best out of every player on this roster.

Jerry West

May 24th, 2011
8:43 am

Tramarci,

I’d like to see Hilt the Stilt become a productive NBA player, but let’s not act like it’s totally on Drew to make that happen. Hilt needs to step it up and show that he can play, and thus far he hasn’t. Dude went from lottery pick to journeyman fairly quickly before he got to the Hawks. Maybe Drew can coax some consistency out of him, but no one else has to this point. So I’m not holding my breath on that, nor am I mad at LD if he can’t (and that’s assuming he’s still on the roster, which I don’t give that great of a chance of happening).

doc

May 24th, 2011
8:48 am

btw jw, glad you got a new gig.

SteveW

May 24th, 2011
9:12 am

Fact Check: Speaking of Al in the postseason, it was written, “…while he did average a double double..”

No he didn’t – he only averaged 9.6 rebounds per game in the post season. Close to a double double, but not a double double.

Astro Joe

May 24th, 2011
9:13 am

I think Hilton is a UFA and I wouldn’t expect him back… isn’t Magnum Rolle a cheaper and younger version of Hilton? I’d like to see Joe drop 15-20 pounds. My guess is that he is “country-strong” and would still be able to bully his way into the paint, but I’d like for him to be a little quicker playing in the pentangle offense. I’d buy Horford a compass so that he could find his way back to the paint. I don’t care if his moves are mechanical, he needs to provide that post presence this team needs to keep the offense balanced. Lastly, I’d send Teague and Pape Sy to the same instructor who worked with Derrick Rose last summer. Those guys should shoot 1,000 jumpers/day just like the MVP. Those two represent the best shot at “organic growth” amongst expected rotational players (yeah, I think Pape Sy will be given a chance to get some consistent minutes next year as a Tony Allen-light type of player).

The sports talk show was talking about a Josh/Hinrich for Bynum/Artest rumor this morning. Artest has 4 more years left on his deal… can you imagine what he would be like when he is no longer physically capable of locking perimeter players down? He’d be like Malik Rose with a super-nasty attitude. I think I’d rather have Bynum and Blake (if the money works).

SteveW

May 24th, 2011
9:24 am

My take on improvements:

Larry Drew – Unless he vastly improves, the Hawks are heading for the lottery. This season. A decent post season that the players had prepared for doesn’t negate the historic beat downs ATL suffered this season, and the lottery performance they had after about January 17th or so to finish out the regular season. Abysmal.

So improvement has to start at the top.

Bench – Seeing Chicago, I realize just how important players 10-13 are. Asik get’s hurt, put in Kurt Thomas. Boozer’s down, Gibson and Thomas with Asik does the trick. Noah out – Asik, Thomas goes in and you don’t miss much. Korver not hitting, put in Brewer or Bogans. Rose needs a breather, CJ Watson’s not a bad back up.

We need to be very judicious on our 10-13 guys. And Larry needs to develop confidence in them as Big Ray says.

Marvin – If he could up his game a little bit, he could put us over the top.

Josh – Get in the post man!

Al – Ditto!

Teague and Hinrich – Train like crazy in the off season

JJ – Same

ZaZa – Learn a low post move

Collins – Keep pumpin’ iron and eatin’ right bro!

That’s about all we got to work with right now. But a top 9 of:

JJ – Still the 2nd best SG in the East
Josh – Top 5 PF in the East
Al – Top 3 C in the East
Teague/Kirk – Very good combo at the Point
Marvin/Wilkens – Serviceable potentially at SF if Marvin especially improves
ZaZa – Very good back up big
Collins – About what you want for a 3rd C

We have a very good foundation. I assume Rolle and Sy will be numbers 10 and 11. And this assumes we re-sign Wilkens and Collins.

Tramarci

May 24th, 2011
9:28 am

@ Jerry West,

Hilton is an OK player if given a chance to play. Before Teague got his minutes, people were saying, “Owe Teague isn’t gonna cut”…. it’s amazing what a little PT can do for a players reputation. What I’m looking at is the fact that there is no one out there worth trading for. We have an elite team, with elite players. We don’t need to pull a Boston (Trade Perkins) or Orlando (Traded Carter and Lewis). We need to keep what we have and get more out of our rotation that’s all I’m saying.

KCG

May 24th, 2011
9:37 am

I heard it on 790 this morning that there have been possible talks between the Hawks and the Lakers for a trade including Smith and Hinrich for Bynum and Artest. What do you guys think of that? I don’t think I like it.

Astro Joe

May 24th, 2011
9:40 am

I wouldn’t bet on Collins’ return… I think true contenders will offer him a little more money if not a legit shot at a ring.

Melvin

May 24th, 2011
9:48 am

Marvin need to be on the first bus, plane or train out of Atlanta.
AL/Josh need to develop more post moves.
Teague need to get stronger.
Joe need to drop a few pounds.
ZaZa need to comeback with his playoffs mindset.
Sy- insufficient game time to analyze. Need to play in the Summer league.
Jamal- if not resigned, should be S&T for helpful piece in return.

Melvin

May 24th, 2011
9:50 am

Doc,

Could you explain why this scouting report on the kid (Anthony Davis) below says b/c he had a 7-inch growth spurt in a year, it will cause him knee problems.

“Was a 6′3″ guard his junior year before a major 7-inch growth spurt. Growth spurt could cause some issues with his knees, could experience some significant pain and could also be a little injury prone for the next year or so.”

Wretch

May 24th, 2011
9:50 am

- Teague, Kirk, and Joe starting at the 1, 2, & 3.
- Give Teague the same minutes, freedom, and responsibility that he was given in the playoffs.
- Teague/Kirk backcourt is solid scoring, playmaking, and defense…stick with it.
- Less offense through Joe. Focusing him, even as the ball passes through him, has a tendency to shut us down. The league figured that out 3 seasons ago
- Horf needs to be more physical. Period.

vava74

May 24th, 2011
9:56 am

1st point of order is that with a high degree of probability Marvin will be traded simply because there is no cap room to keep him and still fill the roster up to 12 players.

My guess is that a late 1st round will be what we will get from a team looking for a disciplined defensive player with size and perceived potential. I would accept a 2nd round.

Alternatively – which I would not advocate unless the deal is reeeeally good – Josh will be traded.

Following this, my view is that the biggest upgrade we could make would be to have LD accepting a gig to coach basketball to the siberian eskimos.

Teague should be told that he is the starter. I know that this not the way to do it normally, but his scouting report already mentioned that he has some mental/confidence issues and as I always said, he needs to know that the job is his.

If he had been given just token minutes against CHI – if Hinrich had not been injured – he would have probably failed to impress.

Coaching is understanding how to deal with these peculiarities of character.

O'Brien

May 24th, 2011
10:07 am

AJ,

Artest has 4 more years left on his deal….

According to hoopshype, Artest has 3 years left on his deal, and his remaining contract is basically the same as Marvin. 3 years, $22.5 mil. And Artest’s contract has a player option for 2012. Who knows, he might do something crazy and opt out or retire. Marvin’s player option is for 2013.

can you imagine what he would be like when he is no longer physically capable of locking perimeter players down?.

Wouldn’t that make him a slightly less effective version of Marvin?

Would the Lakers be interested in Josh and Marvin for Bynum and Artest? I think they would want a Center back in any trade (unless they could use some other pieces to get Howard).

O'Brien

May 24th, 2011
10:13 am

Samuel,

There’s too many jump shot shooting players on the team..

Co-sign. I think Al and Kirk are ok (although I would like to see Al in the post more). But Josh is a horrible jump shooter, JJ and Jamal can be streaky, and Marvin is Marvin.

I wish we could add one legit shooter to this team (the Bulls have 2 in Korver and Bogans), We need a guy who will knock down 40% of his 3-ptrs when he gets open looks.

Astro Joe

May 24th, 2011
10:17 am

OB, I get that Marvin isn’t productive but he isn’t disruptive to the team. I understand why folk are ready to trade Marvin for government cheese and week old bread, I just would prefer someone coming back who may not spend as much time in the recording studio and psychologist’s office as the basketball court.

vava, assuming the same type of salary cap rules apply in the new CBA, how do you trade an unproductive player with an expensive contract (relative to his value) for cap relief? I could certainly see Marvin being traded this summer, I just don’t see how Sund pulls that off without taking back ~$7M in salary.

O'Brien

May 24th, 2011
10:38 am

As for the team next year;

Hilton Armstrong has been on 5 NBA teams in 4 years. How much can we really expect from him?

Josh: Play 15 feet in on offense, drastically reduce the jump shots.

Al: work on his post moves and his post attitude.

JJ: Lose a little weight, and work on that 3-pt shot

Teague: Work on the jumper. He said LD told him to work on his 3-pt shot over the summer, but I also think he should work on his release point.

Marvin: Work on his 3-pt shot, and get some fire in the belly.

Rod from College Park

May 24th, 2011
10:49 am

If I were the Hawks, I would literally give Marvin away. He serves no purpose on this team at all. He never should have been a starter. All of you who think that he will be this fantastic scorer off the bench are living in fantasy land. If he can’t score when no one guards him, what makes you think he will score when the defense is focused on him. He is good for about 10 above average games per year. That’s it. I would call Pheonix, and see if we could swap Chills for Marvin. Both had bad years, but I still think Chills would fit better on our team than Marvin does. All of his strengths are what we need. He is a slasher, good defender of 3 positions, and a good rebounder. Get rid of Marvin at all cost. I’d take a spoiled bag of chips back for him at this point. If he leaves Atlanta, I promise you, you will rarely see him touch the floor again.

doc

May 24th, 2011
11:06 am

melvin, i dont think it is anything structural that has happened to make the bone or joints weaker outside of the normal stresses of playing at a high level increasing repetitive stress injury potential. what can happen is the center of gravity changes and that makes someone more prone to injury as the body adjusts but the growth itself doesnt put him at any more risk. i never heard of this as a consideration in youth sports, for example.

the other blog shut down last night for some reason as i had tried to answer you there.

aj, people that dont produce and get paid well do sometimes cause problems in a team game though it isnt overt. bibby might have been one example of this where we see addiiton by subtraction. that said i am not a fan of artest at the end of his career. if dr phil has problems with him which it sounded like this year after coaching rodman, the prognosis isnt good. btw not saying artest isnt a good guy just very impulsive and explosive.

doc

May 24th, 2011
11:09 am

o’b, i would want to know if jj can straighten his arm before i suggest he go shoot threes this summer. rehab it first and that will take rest. still not sure if that one doesnt come back to bite us bad and he might be better off beginning to look at playing a new position like sf a bit more. he isnt a sg anyway as he doesnt move well around screens, doesnt seem to like to spot up and certainly doesnt do the chase through screens as well as he might have on defense in the past. he wants the ball in his hands which can be done low as a sf just in a different way going to the basket rather than floating away from it. get some new tricks jj to extend your career and make good on your contract.

Rufus1

May 24th, 2011
11:10 am

If we make no changes….

Al needs a better left hand
Josh needs a better right hand and a signature move.
Marvin needs to become a 40% 3pt shooter…He needs to spend the entire offseason working on his 3pt shot.
Joe needs to play more like ray Allen.

Finally…LD
LD needs to value defense and rebounding 1st as a coach and stop trying to win with offense. MAKE YOUR WORDS AND ACTIONS MATCH!

vava74

May 24th, 2011
11:12 am

AJ,

This year’s draft is very very shallow and Marvin still has some reputation in the league.

A team trading a low 1st round pick would be trading 1 million in salary for 7 million, which means “only” 6 million added to the payroll.

Maybe someone out there thinks that Marvin is their missing link of some sort purely based on “perceived” potential and the fact that he is a disciplined wing defender with good size and acceptable shooting touch.

Contrary to what Rod says, I think a change of scenery will make Marvin go back to his 2008-09 form and become again a serviceable rotation player (it’s not out of this world to think that with Jamal leaving that could happen here as well, however, for us, he is waaay to expensive to keep for what he produces right now).

This means that if we don’t ditch Marvin, we will need to trade Josh or Hinrich which are both far far far far far more valuable.

jlewis

May 24th, 2011
11:24 am

I only have a request, name player(s) that we can get in here that are better than Joe Johnson? Most people stress in here about what he makes, we all would have taken the money, and I bet we we be even more sick if we knew what Schultz and Bradley make to hate on what someone else makes.

vava74

May 24th, 2011
11:28 am

Astro Joe
May 24th, 2011
9:40 am
“I wouldn’t bet on Collins’ return… I think true contenders will offer him a little more money if not a legit shot at a ring.”

Yep, he will almost certainly sign with someone else. Look for the Celts to get him, although ORL are now an afterthought as a contender.

Nonetheless, I think we can still get Jarron instead of him :-D it’s one of the good things about this twin stuff.

Where’s Howard’s lost twin when we need him???

vava74

May 24th, 2011
11:32 am

Ray,

Blog monster!

JoJo the Godfather

May 24th, 2011
11:52 am

Smith/Hinrich for Bynum/Artest has us taking back an extra $2M in salary. There’s no way that would happen.

O'Brien

May 24th, 2011
12:00 pm

doc,

I think JJ has 3 more good years left. But his last 2 years of his contract, he will be owed $48 mil, and I think his production will be down even more by then. ASG probably wont own the team by then though, so it will be somebody else’s problem.

Melvin

May 24th, 2011
12:48 pm

If Marvin was a half-way quality SF we could send him to Cleveland for a TPE. Heck, the Cavs can keep their the 4th pick, just take Marvin off our books….

“The website DraftExpress reported that the Cavs offered their No. 4 overall pick to the Grizzlies for Gay, and Memphis said no thanks. The Cavs were going to use their trade exception to fit him into their salary cap.

A league source said the report wasn’t true.

From afar, one can see why the Cavs might be interested in his services. The Cavs don’t have a starting-quality small forward on their roster.”

Melvin

May 24th, 2011
1:01 pm

Rick Sund,

Here is your free draft scouting report. This guy is a legit 6′10, the biggest hand in the draft, good athletic ability, his last name is “Smith” and he has JSmoove stutter (J/K Josh). However, just press the mute button when he says he see himself as a PF later in his career.(LOL)

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=19888

O'Brien

May 24th, 2011
1:06 pm

AJ,

Despite all the Hawks players liking each other off the court, and not being very disruptive on it, there still appears to be Chemistry issue at times, and players are not on the same page. Plus we had some major beatdowns this year.

Maybe the threat of disfunctionality with Artest on board could result in a positive effect on the court. However, LD and the Hawks passed on Shaq, and one reason (imo) was the threat of disruption he brings. so I cant imagine them trading for Artest.

However, if I was getting Bynum in the deal, I would take the chance on Artest for Marvin.

O'Brien

May 24th, 2011
1:11 pm

Melvin,

I would do Marvin for Cleveland’s TPE and a future 2nd round pick.

One of the deals JoJo proposed on the other blog was Marvin and ZaZa for Kaman from the Clippers. I would make that deal gladly, because Kaman’s $12 mil contract is expiring, and we would get rid of Marvin’s contract. But we would have to find a replacement backup, because Kaman would probably get hurt on his way to the press conference.

Melvin

May 24th, 2011
1:11 pm

OB,

Another deal I would do is Marvin for Haywood. Even Van Gundy said that Haywood would be a starting center for alot of teams (which I agree with).

vava74

May 24th, 2011
1:41 pm

Melvin,

Haywood is overpriced, injury prone, usually lazy and or malcontent.

Yes, he could start in many teams, but that’s simply because the league is very thin in big bodies and tends to overprice the contracts by a mile.

He is 32 years old had still has 5 years at 7 million!

doc

May 24th, 2011
1:44 pm

melvin before the other blog broke i suggested no ti haywood. he is pre-etan and yes he could start for some very badt eams as vould zaza. he couldnt win home depot game at the phillips either the way he shoots foul shots either.

Astro Joe

May 24th, 2011
1:58 pm

If Marvin were good enough to trade for a #4, why would we trade him?

OB, I think asking LD to manage Artest is a bad idea.

Again, the desire to get rid of Marvin should not mean that we go from bad to worse. I’m waiting for someone to suggest that we should trade Marvin for Rashard Lewis (as unproductive sans steroids at twice the money).

Astro Joe

May 24th, 2011
2:03 pm

And another thing, if Marvin is the 7th or 8th best player on the team, why focus on trading him? He’s not going to likely bring back anything better, you’re not likely going to free up cash… it is like picking on the weakling in the prison yard. If you REALLY want to change the dynamics of the team, you don’t start with the forgettable player on the team.

vava74

May 24th, 2011
2:19 pm

AJ,

I think the reasoning is that yes, it should be possible to trade Marvin just for cap relief, taking a late 1st round or even a 2nd round pick.

Any option would suit us. If given the open looks, with a training camp behind him, Wilkins should be able to be our backup SF and SG with the responsibility to knock down some shots when on the floor.

Actually, I think Damien was pretty good when he had the opportunity to bring some offense, knocking down some baseline jumpers and lifting defenders and getting to the line with his fakes, in particular on turnaround jumpers.

Astro Joe

May 24th, 2011
2:30 pm

vava, I don’t doubt the benefot from our side of the trade equation, I don;t see it from the receiving team’s side. Heck, if they feel like Jamario Moon at $2M could provide 80% of what Marvin brings at 3.5X that amount, why would they trade a pick for Marvin and absorb that extra salary? The time tp trade a player is when his value is at least comparable to his contract, not when it is at an all-time low. I can only see moving Marvin as a “throw-in” and even then, we’re likely accepting another team’s problem in return (a bad contract, bad attitude, bad production, all of the above, etc.)

Astro Joe

May 24th, 2011
2:38 pm

And I agree with the Damien point. If we could bring back Damien and add Jason Kapono, with Joe getting his usual allotment at SF, then I think we could probably get comparable performance (defensive and offense) for likely half of Marvin’s current contract. I just don’t believe that a trade market exists for him this summer.

Magic Johnson

May 24th, 2011
2:51 pm

Starters: Teague/Joe/Josh/LarrySanders/AndrewBogut
Reserves: John Salmons/pg-sg?/Thornton/Gooden/Pachulia

Traded: Horford, Williams, Hinrich for Bogut, Sanders, Salmons, Gooden

Win NOW! Chicago has a center and bigs off the bench. OKC has a center and bigs off the bench. Celtics HAD a center and bigs off the bench.

Boozer is terrible at defense but Joakim Noah, Gibson, Asik and Deng cover for him.

Smith, Bogut, Sanders, Gooden, and Pachulia {and Semih Erden??} would compete with them and Bogut neutralizes and wears down Noah in their matchups.

Horford and Williams must be packaged to net these players. Milwaukee was 4th defensively in the league. No other team in the league has the defensive personnel to jettison this team to the top.

Mr. Gearon, Jr.

May 24th, 2011
3:13 pm

no one on this team will net Atlanta a center except PF/C Al Horford.
The truth is this league is lacking for centers. We might be able to trick people into think Horford is a center. Because his ability to shoot off the dribble is not good enough for a power forward.
There will always be somebody taller longer and stronger.
I’m leaning towards Horford, Hinrich, and Marvin Williams for Andrew Bogut, Larry Sanders (who would have been a lottery pick looking at this year’s slim draft class), Drew Gooden (backup power forward much like a veteran Taj Gibson, matches up well with backup power forwards) and John Salmons as a backup combo guard to replace Crawford with defense and THEN scoring.
Signing Al Thornton for cheap, puts us at:

Starters: Teague/Joe/Josh/LarrySanders/AndrewBogut
Reserves: John Salmons/pg-sg?/Thornton/Gooden/Pachulia

Al Thornton replaces Damien Wilkins unless he can run pg-sg better than Ronnie Price, Sundiata Gaines, or maybe a veteran for the MLE. Maybe T.J. Ford is hoping for too much.

Teague has shown the potential to become an 8 free throws, 8 assists per game guy which is elite for PG status and must be developed.
We want to avoid small lineups where we have Hinrich and Joe Johnson trying to defend/outscore Lebron. If Smith cannot do this at the 3 we’ll package him for Danny Granger leaving us with.

Starters: Teague/Joe/Granger/LarrySanders/AndrewBogut
Reserves: John Salmons/pg-sg?/Thornton/Gooden/Pachulia

That is 4 players who can drop 20 potentially in the starting lineup and draw double teams. Horford is not the kind of guy we want at the 4.

or
Starters: Teague/Joe/Josh Smith/LarrySanders/AndrewBogut
Reserves: John Salmons/pg-sg?/Thornton/Gooden/Pachulia

Josh Smith at the 3 hinges on him getting down to about Carmelo weight which is 235-236. Just two years ago he lost 15 lbs in the offseason and worked with Hakeem Olajuwon. If he can become a Shawn Marion type again the Hawks can become one of the best defensive teams in the league.

joey1

May 24th, 2011
3:28 pm

trading josh would be plain stupid…. we lose almost our whole defense… we need to trade marvin williams and horford for andrew bogut …then sign thad..young(formet gt player) for the small forward posititon..and sign a few hard nosed defenders and shooter to come off the bench…

imagaine.. teague,johnson, young, smith,bogut
bench – kirk,sign player,wilkins,sign player,zaza

Ken Strickland

May 24th, 2011
3:30 pm

So many of you are using any excuse possible to satisfy personal issues towards certain Hawk players, and some of your suggestions are downright rediculous. You seem to have traditis on the brain, as though that’s absolutely the only possible way for this or any other team to improve.

What this team needs more is for HC LDrew to step up and be more proactive and involved in the development and growth of our young players. He needs to do more than make excuses for preferring under performing vet players who are definite liabilities in certain areas, rather than making a committment to playing and developing talented younger players with more potential for long term success.

Rather than taking a passive approach to getting players to get with the program and not be disruptive, he should take a more active approach and bench anyone that deviates from what’s expected. With this approach, which worked wonders in Chicago, it wouldn’t take long to get his message across.

Some of you are dead set on blaming a player(s) for everything that’s wrong with the Hawks. Some of you believe AHorford is too soft, or too short to play the center position, or has regressed. How in the hell can anyone with a clue believe he’s regressed when this yr he was selected to his 2nd consecutive All Star gm and selected 3rd string All NBA, which makes him the NBA’s #3 top rated center.

Hell, I’ll take that kind of softness and regression any damned day of the week. Also, why does AHorford have to develop this unstoppable postup gm when he’s one of the NBA’s most effecient midrange jumpshooters. This is the kind of crap I’m talking about. We need to take advantage of what a player does best. It’s fine for a player to develop ways to supplement his gm, but to say he has to develop an inside gm to be effective is totally rediculous.

The only player we have that needs to play inside more is JSmith. After all, he did spend a lot of time working on his inside moves with Hakeem. He stands a lot better chance of becoming a solid and consistent interior scorer than jump shooter. If we want more scoring and consistency from players like Marvin, Josh and Horford, LDrew has to do a better job of placing them in position to take advantage of their OFF strengths.

This team has far too much talent to just suggest we trade it away because of some biased fans who put personal issues before common sense. For 6yrs JJ has been forced to fight double teams, and both Woodson and Drew burdened him with MBibby and all of his issues and limitations. Bottomline, they did absolutely nothing to offer him any help.

Mr. Gearon, Jr.

May 24th, 2011
3:33 pm

‘Tough changes need to be made’

You guys think adding Jason Kapono is a tough change? A guy who can hit 2 3s but gives up 12 points on the other end?
::::::
A market exists for Marvin who has shown he can play the big 2 and has a quick trigger. He has potential to add pick and roll decision making on a team with a big 3.
For example, Milwaukee who have either Mbah a Moute and Ilyasova on the wings.
Had we let Joe Johnson go Marvin would have been our two guard.

But that’s in the past. Moving forward we have to get Teague role players so the role of point guard is more natural. Currently it is not possible in an undersized lineup which promotes equal opportunity amongst other things such as lack of rebounding and zone defense.

Teague: elbow pick and rolls with Smith (finisher)
Johnson: 3pt corner shooter who punishes doubles and smaller defenders ie Dwyane Wade
Smith/Granger: plays close to the basket like Shawn Marion, makes the other 3 defend him freeing up Joe Johnson to punish smaller 2s
Sanders: rebounds the ball, crashes boards. 7′6 wingspan with good form on the elbow jump shot.
Bogut: a legit 7′footer in the league, can single cover Howard, Bynum and makes Noah look like a 7′0 limited offense energy power forward, which he is. clogs lane and blocks shots.
::::Together per 36 minutes the frontcourt averages 6 blocks. Sanders must gain about 5-10 pounds and Teague must work on his 2man elbow pick and roll pull ups.

Larry Drew must design an offense that has only Teague and a screener (3,4,5) and the rest of the frontcourt crashing with Joe on the wing instead of trying to put Josh Smith on the wing.
A 236 lb Josh is best crashing the boards or setting screens for the roll.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5EHiqFtrLY

Mr. Gearon, Jr.

May 24th, 2011
3:51 pm

@joey1
that’s not how it works. Horford and Marvin Williams is about $20 million in salary. We must take back $20 million from Milwaukee assuming the CBA cap remains the same. It likely won’t but that’s how it currently works as it has not expired yet.

I love Kirk Hinrich to death but going forward we cannot pay $8 million to bring a point guard off the bench. That is why Teague was brought off the bench. If Hinrich is on the roster we are committed to him as a starter which I’m sure he doesn’t mind but for this team to go forward we need to capitalize on Teague’s potential and maximize our ability to get to the free throw line, single coverage defend, and offensive rebound from several positions.

Thaddeus Young is a piece with tremendous mismatch potential at either forward spot but like Smith he gives up rebounding and we are still headed towards a more defensive team that runs off of blocks, turnovers and using its length to affect shots similar to the Mavericks, the 08 Celtics and the 09 Lakers.
We can’t afford Smith to be a bulky guy who plays stretch four another season, he needs to slim down a bit and get back to outmuscling and outquicking people to the basket.

Few people remember he added muscle to combat bigger bodies but Smith was very quick a few years ago. He is young enough to believe he will get that speed back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01sGzTPhiAA
Even if he recovers some of it it will increase his trade value tremendously and if the fans want it could net us a more traditional small forward like Rudy Gay or Danny Granger although Granger is closer to 30.

Lebron

May 24th, 2011
4:10 pm

“Simply put, Horford needs to get back to his roots. Even if he ends up playing more power forward than center for the remainder of his career, there is no reason not to play tough.”

“Horford spent the first three years of his career as an ever present double double threat”
first three years, 12 pts 9.6 rebounds
this year, 15 pts 9.3 rebounds
“and a guy who most frontcourts preferred to not have to deal with.”
most regular season frontcourts ie the Golden State Warriors.
going forward the top teams will have a guy with length to throw on him and make him try to be Dirk a power forward. Too bad Horford is barely 6′10 without the wingspan to compensate.
He has been consistently dominant center in a weak field against most teams. When the stars come out Horford fails.
“Horford had a rough postseason performance and while he did average a double double (a fact that seems to continuously elude some of us)”

“he didn’t look like the guy who had just established a career high in field goal percentage and points per game during the regular season.”
15 ppg, not exactly post season material ie Zach Randolph.
“Al needs to spend some offseason time with somebody who can help him with his back-to-the-basket game.”
He spent 3 years in college. He has peaked. a speed center who isn’t good on defense or a power forward who’s power gets mitigated by his lack of reach, mediocre height and corresponding lack of ability to shoot over opponents.
Al Horford has peaked. Show me some video of Al Horford being “tough” ie dominating somebody bigger than him.

I’ve seen him block shots on guards in the playoffs never Garnett, Dwight, Bosh etc.

Check Horford’s draft measurements. He’s a more robotic version of fellow former All-Star David Lee. Due to the slim field of centers Horford is a regular season borderline/2nd team “All-Star” and a postseason dud.
All you need is a 6′10 guy with smarts and lateral quickness to make him mediocre.

O'Brien

May 24th, 2011
5:21 pm

AJ,

LD goes back and forth with Josh, so I can only imagine him and Artest going at it. If we trade for Artest, I think Artest might force LD to resign midseason.

And I agree that we are stuck with Marvin unless he is a throw in to a Josh or Al trade, or unless we take back another team’s unwanted bad contract.

Would you trade Marvin to Phoenix for Childress and the #13 pick?

Why would Phoenix do it? Childress has 4 years left on his deal, whereas Marvin only has 3, and Chills is coming off a terrible year (he shot 49% from the FT line).

Why would ATL do it? (imo) Chills is a better fit for the motion offense (he actually slashes/cuts), and gets points on offensive rebounds, and is a better ball handler than Marvin. But because of the extra year on Chills deal, I would require a pick or Robin Lopez.

O'Brien

May 24th, 2011
5:32 pm

My improvement for LD is to definte the roles of the players, and be more flexible during the game. Before the game, I think he has a good game plan. However, he is either unable to adjust during the game, or unable to get the players to execute his adjustment.

Too often we would fall behind in the first half, and make little to no adjustments for the second half, only to fall behind even more. And this happened in the playoffs as well.

O'Brien

May 24th, 2011
5:33 pm

* should be “define” the roles

Lebron

May 24th, 2011
5:46 pm

O’Brien
:::::
Sincere question why does anyone think that any variation of small ball will win going forward?

Teague will never be a point guard if we get Joe Johnson + chills + 6′8 smith + Horford

If you are playing small the focal point becomes the small forward. Can the small forward, help cover the rebounding scoring and defense differential that having Smith and Horford together brings?
I say not if its “Chills”. If you have Lebron with his man to man and help defense or a Stojacovic for 3s from the SF or even a younger version Josh Smith to block shots and erase mistakes would suffice.

“Chills” does not erase the mistakes inherent to playing small forward. You need a 2 way impact player to play there if you are going small. Chills is a low usage role player who does nothing spectacular and has started all of 70 games in his career. No thanks.

Hinrich, Horford and Williams will tender nice returns from Milwaukee.

Lebron

May 24th, 2011
5:53 pm

in a small lineup the roles are less defined. That’s the purpose! Equal opportunity and every one shoots and hits there jumpers and everyones happy.
Only that’s not how it works. No double teams occur no points in the paint, defense and rebounding suffers and shooters miss.
:::
trade Horford along with Marvin Williams who is an Albatross and Hinrich. Bogut/Sanders/Salmons/Gooden. Might even get a pick for insurance of Bogut.
Then use the pick for Semih Erden and a lower pick. Keep maneuvring and stop finagling the fans.

Only chance of internal improvement is Teague and Josh Smith losing weight and gaining speed.
Teague will not maximize his potential unless traditional rebounding, defense, fast break and shooting roles are defined.

Josh Smith cannot be the stretch 4 or the 6′8 guy with 7′0 wingspan trying to post up Pau Gasol.
Sanders has more potential with his shooting form frame and wingspan but he can help this team make the ECF heading into a lockout season.

retaining Horford, Williams and Hinrich will be an even bigger mistake if Miami and New York ever gets a center.

You think Boston is regretting not having a true center? We don’t even have a 7′0 PF ala Kevin Garnett so why aren’t we? U will never be able to overload the team with offense unless Marvin Williams is traded for Carmelo Anthony or Lebron

joey1

May 24th, 2011
5:55 pm

1 trading josh would be plain stupid…. we lose almost our whole defense… we need to trade marvin williams and horford for andrew bogut …then sign thad..young(formet gt player) for the small forward posititon..and sign a few hard nosed defenders and shooter to come off the bench…

imagaine.. teague,johnson, young, smith,bogut
bench – kirk,sign player,wilkins,sign player,zaza

Lebron

May 24th, 2011
6:15 pm

@joey1
Marvin Williams and Al Horford for Andrew Bogut does not work money wise. Horford makes as much as Bogut by himself and you must match salary because Milwaukee is near the cap.
Because of what they gave Marvin Williams, Thaddeus Young is a pipe dream. And “sign player” is not a clear strategy to “win” in the NBA.
::::::
starting teague,johnson, smith, sanders, bogut
bench – price, salmons, thornton, gooden, pachulia

traded kirk, williams, horford
outlook veteran team with youth and speed in the lineup.

Caveats: Smith (works hard with Hakeem and returns at 236 or less,speed, Carmelo’s weight), Teague (works hard offseason, is given the keys), Sanders gains about 5 lbs of pure muscle to slash under the bucket more and finish pick and rolls more.

::::There that’s three things and a defend, run, and score off pick and rolls and post up contender.
A traditional lineup with traditional defined roles.

Matches up length wise with Boston/Chicago/Miami. can defend Orlando/Dwight. Contracts and talent render more Depth than New York.
^^^^^
Smith if his less weight and added elevation and playing the 3 does not help him get easy jumpers in the paint and more boards etc. Then his blocks alone will give the team a valuable trade piece for a small forward

joey1

May 24th, 2011
6:32 pm

i meant m williams and horford for andrew bogut and john salmons sorry

o-k_look

May 24th, 2011
6:54 pm

If anyone has seen Bibby lately, you’ll know that trading him was one good decision up to this point. Bibby’s bascially hiding behind the big three. Yea, did you see when they needed him? He can’t always be dependant on hitting that three. His body has no defense for Rose. All he does is set picks and sets up on the paremeter for a trey. Watch tonight’s game and focus on Bibby. Yea, he’ll make a few, but that’s it. You notice that when he misses the trey-give him the ball and he won’t shoot it; he’ll shy away from it.

joey1

May 24th, 2011
7:00 pm

Najeh Davenpoop

May 24th, 2011
7:38 pm

Teague — make that floater perfect and learn how to use your body to draw fouls when you get in the lane

Smoove — get that right hand up to near the same level as the left hand, and improve those handles to the point where you can’t help but drive inside rather than shooting

Al — develop a go-to low post move, go see a sports psychologist who can help improve your confidence so we don’t have to see Timid Al anymore

LD — quit leaning on your “shot making” crutches, hold everybody equally accountable instead of being a bully, and play Teague more

Marvin — take a page out of George Costanza’s book and do the opposite of whatever your instincts tell you to do

Pape Sy — improve your defense and jumper, force LD’s hand to put you in the rotation

Magnum Rolle — go take some steroids

Rick Sund — retire

It’s unrealistic to expect improvement from anyone else on the team in my opinion.

Najeh Davenpoop

May 24th, 2011
7:44 pm

“I would call Pheonix, and see if we could swap Chills for Marvin.”

Chills is a significant risk at this point, since it’s been four years since he did anything worthwhile in the NBA, but the 2007-08 version of Chills would be ideal for the Hawks’ bench and a much better complement to the rest of this team than Marvin.

Of course Chills left because he didn’t want to be here, so it would be on LD and Sund to convince him to come back.

Najeh Davenpoop

May 24th, 2011
7:47 pm

“And another thing, if Marvin is the 7th or 8th best player on the team, why focus on trading him? He’s not going to likely bring back anything better, you’re not likely going to free up cash”

Getting someone better or freeing up cash in return for him may each be unlikely outcomes, but neither one is impossible. If the Hawks can do either one, trading him is worth it. Even if they can only get a similarly paid, similarly producing player, it would probably be worth it simply for the sake of changing scenery.

Ken Strickland

May 24th, 2011
7:49 pm

Current NBA rules won’t allow the Hawks to reacquire JChildress in a trade. The rules will only allow the Hawks to reacquired him if he’s waved by the Suns. I just don’t understand this insane obsession some of you have with us trading for ABogut and half the Bucks starting lineup. Why would anyone be dumb enough to think he and his teammates could do more for the Hawks than they’ve managed to do with the Bucks?

And why would anyone be stupid enough to suggest the Hawks be dumb enough to trade AHorford, our 2 time All Star center who’s also 3rd string All NBA, for ABogut, an injury prone center that hasn’t measured up to Horford or done enough to push the Bucks past the Hawks, let alone make them a factor in their own division?

Some of the same Hawk fans who are so fond of calling Sund and the ASG dumb and stupid, have shown by some of their trade suggestions to be far dumber and more stupid than anyone in Hawks management. The best move the Hawks could make is to make adjustments, by making Teague and Hinrich our starting back court, moving JJ to SF, and retaining Horford and JSmith as our starting C and PF respectively.

I would, however, make moves to upgrade our bench by adding another shooter and a more athletic Big. Otherwise, all of this trade JJ, Josh, Horford, Marvin, Teague etc is just a bunch of fantasy league BS and a total waste of time and effort.

The biggest improvement we can make is for LDrew to be more proactive and make a committment to developing younger players rather than relying so heavily on under performing veteran guards with various liabilities that’s hurt the team in the longrun. He needs to follow the Bulls HC’s approach to getting his players in line.

If he decides to bench players, and I mean any player, who doesn’t follow the script, it won’t take long for them to get the message and fall into line. The Atlanta Hawks have far too much talent to just trade away because some dilusional fans are obsessed with making trades. We simply need HC LDrew to do a better job of putting Josh, Marvin, Horford and JJ in position to take better advantage of their strengths.

Najeh Davenpoop

May 24th, 2011
7:52 pm

“Current NBA rules won’t allow the Hawks to reacquire JChildress in a trade.”

That’s only true until July 1. After that the Hawks can reacquire Childress. Unfortunately this means that the trade O’Brien suggested earlier (which I really like) of Marvin for Childress and the #13 pick cannot happen unless the Suns happen to draft someone the Hawks like and then trade him after the new CBA is negotiated. I don’t think the Hawks can pre-negotiate a trade like that with the Suns, where they pick someone for the express purpose of being traded after the new CBA comes into effect, without getting in trouble with David Stern.

honest_abe

May 24th, 2011
8:34 pm

this team becomes legit if josh patterns his game to become a rodman/b.wallace clone. energetic, focused on defense while scoring off trash and transition.

al needs to go on dancing with the stars. his footwork could use some serious work. might not hurt to learn to back people half his size down either.

teague needs to learn how to pass. his scoring, speed and driving ability is fine but his passing leaves much to be desired.

jj needs to find the fountain of youth or a set of balls. he’s the only “superstar” that is scared to take the responsibility of his teams performance on his shoulders. dump the chump… if only

god bibby blows.

O'Brien

May 24th, 2011
8:34 pm

Najeh,

From the Braves blog;

Charlie Morton went 2-12 with a 7.57 ERA last year, the worst record and ERA among qualified starters last season. This season, he is 5-1 with a 2.62 ERA. What happened?

1) He is using his sinker more
2) Morton has also done some work with a sports psychologist

John Smoltz also visited a sports psychologist. And Phil Jackson has brought one in to talk to his team. I think the Hawks could use one on staff (imo).

O'Brien

May 24th, 2011
8:43 pm

Ken Strickland,

And why would anyone be stupid enough to suggest the Hawks be dumb enough to trade AHorford, our 2 time All Star center who’s also 3rd string All NBA, for ABogut, an injury prone center that hasn’t measured up to Horford or done enough to push the Bucks past the Hawks, let alone make them a factor in their own division?.

Did you watch Al Horford against the Bulls? MC’s covers the Hawks, and this is from his new blog;

“Al sounds more and more like he wants nothing to do with banging in the post. he looked like it, too, vs. Noah.” MC.

Al Horford would like to play more minutes at PF. What we need is the Al who played center almost exclusively his first 2 years. This year, he seems to be shying away from the Center position.

And to be fair to Bogut, his team is not as talented as the hawks (regardless of what some people thought going into the season). So its hard to blame him for not lifting the Bucks pass the Hawks. The hawks have 4 all-star caliber players (JJ, Al, Josh and Jamal). Who do the Bucks have?

And check the numbers. They are very similar.

Bogut’s career average? 12.7 pts, 9.4 rebs, 1.6 blocks.
Al’s career average? 12.8 pts, 9.6 rebs, 1.1 blocks.

If Al was the starter for the Bucks, and Bogut was the starter for the hawks, do you think Al would have made the All-Star game this year?

And did you know that Bogut was named to the 2009–10 All-NBA Third Team? Bogut also earned 32 total points in the 2010-11 Defensive Player of the Year Award voting to finish 6th overall.

I agree that Bogut is injury prone, but dont sell him short when it comes to his game. His numbers compare very favorably to Al.

Big Ray

May 24th, 2011
9:08 pm

Tramarci ,

I wish it was as easy as “get those guys in the weight room and get some work in on the practice court, and we have our frontcourt.”

If that was the case, we’d have been fine with Randolph Morris…

Big Ray

May 24th, 2011
9:13 pm

Ken ,

I will say this about Al Horford – if he doesn’t happily resign himself to playing center, then he must become a heck of a power forward for us. Either way, he really does not seem interested in being the player he started out as. I hope that changes. In some ways, that’s besides the point in my opinion. We need an enforcer in the post, a banger.

Outside of Zaza Pachulia, we’re screwed. Al has the fundamentals and seemed to lack the will in the playoffs. Josh seemed to have the will, but lacks the fundamentals and the discipline. So what do we do?

Big Ray

May 24th, 2011
9:16 pm

O’brien ,

There’s a second side to every coin. What if Al’s disposition about banging has to do with the help he has? When he’s on the floor, he’s been the only banger. Kinda like when Bibby was here and Joe was the only backcourt defender among the threesome of him, Bibby, and Jamal. How often did Joe seem disconnected on defense? Too often.

We may be seeing the same thing with Al, who tires of “going to war” by himself. Let’s be honest. Collins bangs but doesn’t rebound so well. Josh doesn’t bang. Marvin doesn’t. Etan doesn’t get to play. Unless he’s on the floor with Pachulia, Al has next to no help in the paint.

And for those who keep wanting to point out Josh’s shot-blocking skills, that has NOTHING to do with rebounding, boxing out, or banging of any kind.

O'Brien

May 24th, 2011
9:20 pm

Big Ray,

How do you feel about a starting lineup of Teague (or Hinrich), JJ, Marvin, Al and ZaZa?

ZaZa is willing to bang, and he tends to play better with more consistent minutes (although his defense isnt very good). Josh can be our super sub (and SMOY candidate) off the bench like the Lakers and Lamar Odom, and still get 35 minutes PT. Depending on the matchup and game flow, Josh can either come in for Al or for Marvin, or if ZaZa goes to the bench, Al slides over to Center, and Josh comes in at PF.

Or is it too risky?

O'Brien

May 24th, 2011
10:07 pm

Bulls hanging tough. I hope they are able to close this game out, and not wilt like they did down the stretch in game 2 and 3.

And watching Deng play, it would be nice if marvin could develop into a poor man’s Deng and help fill Jamal’s role off the bench.

Najeh Davenpoop

May 25th, 2011
12:08 am

Deng is what Marvin would be if he worked on his game and had any balance whatsoever.

bjrufino

May 25th, 2011
12:31 am

let’s sign nick young, not resign jamal crawford, sign oden, trade smith for beasley and elington

vava74

May 25th, 2011
8:17 am

well… it will be “poetic injustice” but the Heat will get their second title against the Mavs… and the three stooges will get what they wanted.

let us all hope that Stern swallows the elephant and decides to punish Lebrat a bit giving the blind mice instructions to correct the past injustice…

doc

May 25th, 2011
8:45 am

vava, not sure what is more palatable to some, the three amigos raising the trophy or cuban. my preference is the latter. riles is establishment enough for stern and he seems to have gotten some of the preening out of them to get them to play good defense which they do and will do against the mavs. dirk will have to be a superhero again to get by the heat. it could look like pictures from gulliver’s travels.

Tramarci

May 25th, 2011
8:49 am

@ Big Ray, Lol

I agree somewhat, but we can’t go trading away our 4 years of making the playoffs. There hasn’t been this much excitement in Atlanta about basketball since Doc Rivers, Domonique Wilkins, and Spud Webb all wore the uniform.

We should have gotten another coach. Since we didn’t it’s too risky to fire LD now. It would slow the growing process for the team yet again.

The only trade I would advocate, would be a Marvin Williams for Childress trade. They thought they could underpay Chill in hopes that a younger Marvin would eventually out perform him. That didn’t happen. So I say bing Childress back and go from there.

Mike is Back

May 25th, 2011
9:08 am

Big Ray, I don’t know if better coaching will guarantee that all of these guys will play better…but it certainly can’t hurt their cause.

I’m not crazy about JJ at the 3…JJ is a Big guy that doesn’t play Big…we will still have to scramble on defense when he moves to the SF position…so that kind of offset our defensive gain at the 1 and 2…Despite his contract…we need t o see if we can move JJ…in the off season…or after the locked out season…either way.

I want to go Big more…Zaza has shown me all I need to see…for ME TO plead his case for increased minutes…I WOULD KEEP ARMSTRONG.

I’m not implying Armstrong is going to solve our problems at the center position…we gave up a lot in that trade…with no first round pick…and having pass on an opportunity to draft a Big…even if we brought in Rolle…I would still hold on to Armstrong…FIRST OFF…because we haven’t seen him play…when you look at what we gave up in that trade…I just think it would behoove us…to see if he can help the team.

There is always that throw in guy…that often gets overlooked…in major trades…I just want to see Armstrong with a training camp under his belt.

Damien and Armstrong…are the two guys…I hope we don’t let get away…I think they can help the team improve.

E43

May 25th, 2011
9:13 am

O’BRIEN- There is absolutely no way that josh is going to come off the bench. This is a guy that almost transformed into Hitler when he got pulled out of games once or twice. Bench the guy permanently and Al Qaeda might have a new leader.

Ken Strickland

May 25th, 2011
9:13 am

OBRIEN-So you think I might be selling Bogut short. Horford is quicker, faster, more athletic and versatile than Bogut. So when you consider how evenly matched their stats are, and you suggest trading a reliable player like Horford for an injury prone player like Bogut, maybe it’s you that’s selling Horford short. And if Bogut could make the All Star gm, and 3rd string All NBA with the Bucs, there’s nothing to suggest AHorford could duplicate those feats with them, since he tends to remain relatively healthy.

BIG RAY-We all know it would be better for the Hawks to have a bigger more physical presence in the middle, but that’s not likely to happen. Teams aren’t going to readily get rid of that type of player, although some of our fantasy league minded fans seem to think they will just to accomodate the fact we need and want one.

With the unlikelihood of us getting this type of center, we need to hold onto what we have and do a much better job of utilizing our available talent. Having Hinrich-SG, Teague-PG and JJ-SF making up our perimeter DEF, with their speed, quickness, recovery and overall DEF ability, will take a lot of pressure off Josh and Horford.

As a 1st time HC, LDrew had a lot on his plate, especially with this team and its overall situation. So, with a lot of what he was trying to establish already in place, maybe we will get more of what is needed from him, hopefully. Having both Teague and Hinrich definitely changes the overall dynamics of this team. Their presence, and the absence of DEF liabilities like Bibby and Jamal, will force LDrew to give more attention to DEF, rather than relying almost exclusively on OFF, like both he and Woodson did to address most needs.

It would also be a big mistake to take the big loss, that would surely happen, just to get rid of Marvin. Why be satisfied with Damien when Marvin has proven to be more productive in almost every category throughout their careers. Bring both off the bench, make Marvin the #1 scoring option, and you’ll resolve the MWilliam problem. LDrew can’t keep underutilizing players the way he underutilized JTeague.

Astro Joe

May 25th, 2011
9:27 am

Strange to see the line-up that Riley envisioned finally come together in the ECF… Wade, Miller, LeBron, Bosh and Haslem. That is a very potent group of players to close out a game. And you have to give it up for LeBron, he has been an excellent facilitator, scorer, defender and rebounder at various times throughout this series. Whatever his team needed, he has been able to deliver it.

Meanwhile, the media darling may get closed out soon. In the classic blog spirit of “I told you so”, I knew that the Thunder were not ready. Good team with a lot of promise but not quite ready against grizzled vets like Dirk, Jet Terry and the amazing Jason Kidd. Their path to the WCF was against a star-less Denver team and a #8 seeded Memphis squad that took them to 7 games.

doc

May 25th, 2011
9:43 am

sadly, the bulls are also in the not ready for prime time category, too. korver has been relegated to being as ineffective as jamal.

well can we add to the number of teams to win an nba championship over the last three decades?

Dan

May 25th, 2011
9:45 am

Trade Marvin, Teague and Horford for Dwight Howard. The salaries match up and the Magic should get something instead of nothing. Yes Horford is good but have to give to get and Teague well when the stock is high you sell sell sell.

I would resign Crawford and have a lineup of

Howard Center
Josh Power Forward
Joe Johnson Small Forward
Crawford Shooting guard
Henrich Point Guard

O'Brien

May 25th, 2011
9:47 am

Tramarci,

There hasn’t been this much excitement in Atlanta about basketball since Doc Rivers, Domonique Wilkins, and Spud Webb all wore the uniform.

That excitement has not been reflected in the Hawks attendance. Hawks were 7th in payroll, but 22nd in attendance. Last year, we ranked 18th in attendance. In 2009, we were 20th.

AJ,

Last year. the Thunder lost in the first round. This year, they made it to the conference finals. A couple more tweaks, and they might finally get to the NBA finals. I like their chances alot more than I like the Hawks chances.

That being said, regardless of how young and unready the Thunder are, there is no excuse for letting Dallas close out the game on a 15-2 run to push it to OT, in OKC’s building no less. I was very disappointed in KD’s play . And he owned up to it. He said he let the fans and the city down.

O'Brien

May 25th, 2011
9:50 am

doc,

Miami has 2 established superstars and one established all-star. Chicago has one up and coming superstar, and that’s it. And with the way Miami plays defense, Rose cant do it all by himself. Bulls just need another star to help Rose carry the load.

OKC just needs more playoff seasoning (imo).

O'Brien

May 25th, 2011
9:55 am

Raise your hand if you thought Mike Brown would be the next coach of the LA Lakers (which is the rumor that’s out there). His best asset is he is a defensive minded coach.

Not concidentally, Kobe’s comments during exit interviews…“If you’re building a championship team, your DNA always has to start with the defensive end of the floor,” Bryant said on May 11. “Always. I’m a firm believer in that. I don’t believe in building a championship team on offense. It has to be built on defense and rebounding. Period.”.

Astro Joe

May 25th, 2011
10:29 am

OB, yeah, the Thunder are closer to the Hawks but that doesn’t mean that they are close. The may end up being like the old Kings, a really good team for 5+ years.

doc, I think Miami beats the Mavs, so this won’t add to the number of teams that have won in the last 2-3 decades (since they won with Wade, Shaq and Riley a few years ago).

doc

May 25th, 2011
11:24 am

yup aj, aware that it is only 50-50 chance and as i alluded to, i think miami stuffs dirk and frustrates the hell out of them. the queen might pull it off or stern bring out his merry striper clowns if in doubt. ;-(

to date NO team has rebuilt the way the hawks and blazers wanted to from the bottom up through the draft with a core after blowing it up and gotten to the championship. the bulls tried it first and failed, now okc, sans seattle, is in the hot seat.

Rod from College Park

May 25th, 2011
11:30 am

Ken Strickland

“OBRIEN-So you think I might be selling Bogut short. Horford is quicker, faster, more athletic and versatile than Bogut. So when you consider how evenly matched their stats are, and you suggest trading a reliable player like Horford for an injury prone player like Bogut, maybe it’s you that’s selling Horford short. And if Bogut could make the All Star gm, and 3rd string All NBA with the Bucs, there’s nothing to suggest AHorford could duplicate those feats with them, since he tends to remain relatively healthy.”

Stop it with the Bogut is injury prone nonsense. Bogut got seriously injured because someone undercut him, that has nothing to do with being injury prone. Compare Al’s first 4 years and Bogut’s first 4 years in terms of minutes played, and Al has played 8,328 minutes, and Bogut after 4 years had played 8,449 minutes. The obvious reason that people are suggesting going after Bogut is because he is a center, knows that he is a center and wants to be a center. We don’t need versatility, and jump shooting at the center position, we need a center. I like Horford, but if a Bogut for Al deal was possible for this team, I would do it in a heartbeat.

doc

May 25th, 2011
11:30 am

john edwards indicted by the feds. wow,the john edwards? less than 5% chance of beating the rap on those guys. how the mighty have fallen. knew he was bad all along.

Ken Strickland

May 25th, 2011
11:32 am

OBRIEN

I’ve been thinking about Chicago’s OFF limitations and their heavy reliance on PG DRose. This was Thibideau’s 1st yr as a HC, and he was hired because of his philosophy and ability to develop solid DEF teams. As a result of having to spend so much time developing that DEF, maybe he didn’t have enough time to devote to developing an equally solid OFF.

Maybe that will be forthcoming next season, now that his DEF is in place. I believe the same situation existed with 1st time HC LDrew, except he focused his efforts on OFF. Throughout the season he relied on OFF, over DEF, in the form MBibby and JCrawford, to get the job done.

With Bibby gone and Jamal leaving, maybe Drew will be forced to focus more on developing team DEF for the upcoming season. There are a number of things, other than resorting to trading away the bank, that can be done internally to improve this team. The emergence of JTeague, and the acquisition of KHinrich, are the 2 single most important attributes that will contribute to the improvement of this team.

I just don’t understand the rebounding concerns related to moving JJ to SF. These same concerns certainly didn’t cause any concerns when LDrew startedJCollins, a 7′ center with definite rebounding issues. Some of you have suggested benching Marvin and starting DWilkins, who’s scoring and rebounding has never measured up to MWilliams.

The biggest and most realistic improvements this team can make in order to improve is to make certain adjustments, and fine tune the talent we have to maximize production. Even without making a single trade, this can be a much better team than the one that didn’t seize the opportunity to close out the Bulls.

doc

May 25th, 2011
11:33 am

bogut played with an 85% elbow this year at the start and is going back for more surgery before next season to get it back to 100%. so he performed as well as al did with half a wing at 100%? ken, better check your data as the guy is very tough.

Rod from College Park

May 25th, 2011
11:34 am

doc,

Dallas will beat Miami. To much depth, and to many big guys down low. They will destroy Miami on the glass. I see Miami maybe getting 2 games. D Wade, and Lebron will have to play great every game for them to even have a chance.

Ken Strickland

May 25th, 2011
11:50 am

ROD FROM CP, AND ALL OTHER BOGUT FANS

If Bogut is a true center, and all that you think he is, and Horford is soft, regressing, and not a true center like you think he is,

1-WHY IN THE DEVIL WOULD THE BUCKS CONSIDER MAKING THIS TRADE?
2-WHAT WOULD BE THE ADVANTAGE TO THEM?
3-IS THERE ACTUALLY ANYONE OUT THERE THAT’S DUMB ENOUGH TO BELIEVE HORFORD WOULD BE FAR MORE WILLING TO EMBRACE PLAYING CENTER FOR THE BUCS THAN THE HAWKS?
4-IF IT’S TRUE THAT HORFORD’S DESIRE TO PLAY PF RATHER THAN CENTER IS CREATING A PROBLEM FOR THE HAWKS, WHY WOULD THE BUCS BE WILLING TO TAKE ON THAT PROBLEM?
5-IF HORFORD IS TOO SOFT, TOO SHORT OR TOO WEAK TO BE EFFECTIVE TO PLAY CENTER FOR THE HAWKS, WOULDN’T THE BUCS HAVE THE SAME PROBLEMS IF THEY TRADED FOR HIM?

Stop with this FANTASY LEAGUE CRAP. And stop suggesting these totally stupid, unrealistic and totally unlikely FANTASY LEAGUE trade suggetions.

Rod from College Park

May 25th, 2011
12:11 pm

I’m actually not a Bogut fan, but when you continue to make idiotic coments like Bogut is injury prone, and let Marvin be the number #1 scoring option off the bench and that will solve his problems, like he has done anything to prove he should be any kind of scoring option, I’m going to call you out on it. Fact remains that Al is a two time All Star Center, so maybe the Bucks would make him play the center position, unlike the Hawks. What would he do, refuse? Some of us on this blog just have a little basketball knowledge, and we can see that Horford wants to be a jump shooting power forward, who does not want to play in the post, and that is not something that we need on this team. We already have a bunch of jump shooters, and a better power forward on the roster, so trading him because he is a 2 time all star with a reasonable deal should net us something good back. I was not the one who proposed this idea, and i have never posted any trade possibilities except for trades to get Marvin out of Atlanta, but if it was a possibility, I would do it in a hearbeat. Also, if you read the original poster who put the Horford and Bogut idea out there, he included other players in the deal as well, so maybe that would be the reason that it would be a possibility.

Ken Strickland

May 25th, 2011
12:15 pm

DOC-My issue with Bogut isn’t about not wanting him on our team, because I would love to have him. However, his injury situations are real, no matter how some of you try to dismiss them. Plus, there hasn’t been a single hint that the Bucs have the slightest interest in wanting to trade Bogut for Horford, or wanting to trade Bogut period.

It just reeks of stupidity and wishful fantasy league thinking to get all worked up about potential trades involving certain players that aren’t even on the trading block, or even been mentioned, assumed or considered to be.

Remember, the Celtics and Magic thought they could resolve all of their problems and improve by making drastic trades, and look at how that turned out for them. Both teams are now below the Hawks as viable candidates for a championships. If you think we need a larger presence in the middle than AHorford, why not suggest we make a more realistic and workable trade. Why not trade Horford to the Celtics for JOneal and/or SOneal. Both are true centers and would represent a much bigger presence in the middle.

As you can see with my trade suggestion, it takes more than size, physical presence, and a bunch of FANTASY LEAGUE TRADE SUGGESTIONS to improve this team.

Ken Strickland

May 25th, 2011
12:25 pm

ROD FROM CP-It would be foolish for anyone to enter into a discussion with you about MWilliams. When it comes to Marvin, you’re far to biased, closed minded and unreceptive to even come close to entertaining an intelligent, open minded thought.

I’ll be glad when training camp starts and the Hawks end up bringing back the same team that finished this season, minus EThomas, JPowell and maybe HArmstrong.

WR

May 25th, 2011
12:49 pm

Big Ray, nice read, take a Bayer quickly because I’m going to go against my norm,LOL. Just got done reading the Smith-Hinrich for Bynum-Artest, article from Schultz and I love the deal if possible. Now I know the biggest worry would be Artest, but having Bynum at center, letting Al move to PF with Teague and Joe at PG & SG respectively and not even Marvin could screw that up, well, its Marvin, so you never know. I mentioned it early in the last blog topic, Smith for Bynum, peace Smith, throw in Artest for Hinrich with the hopefully now starting PG Teague and I love the Hawks chances.

Imagine this, lets use Miami, Artest has the muscle and skill set to guard Lebron the best anyone can considering the player, Joe has already proved the D-Wade matchup between the two is a wash, Horford definitely could hold his own against Bosh on both sides of the court, which leaves Bynum and Teague. Miami has nothing down low, sure Haslem has helped this post season, but he has also helped many to see there’s nothing there. Looking at Chalmers and Bibby and one has to wonder if the Hawks should give Teague ritalin just at the thought of either trying to guard him. I used Miami, because hey, in the east their now the standard, but considering everyone else in the east, not even Boston would be more potent then that line up.

doc

May 25th, 2011
12:50 pm

yes exactly ken the answer to all of your questions is they wouldnt is my guess, unless they had serious doubts about boguts health. i dont suggest trades or very infrequently. i am with you that this year is a year they need to hold what they have in their hand and want to add a few reliable pieces. next year is the year to blow it up as hinrich goes off the books and josh is on the last year of a contract for trade value. i think we could have the third best team in the east if these guys put their minds to it and LD doesnt f*ck with zaza and teague again and finds a way to light a fire under marvin to where he resembles the 09 version and not the mature one.

rod, i want you to be right but there will be 8 players on the floor for miami. it wont take much to get two early fouls on dirk in one game and ignore a lot of contact about him to where he doesnt see the line where he makes a lot of points. stern and his merry men already stole one from dirk and cuban dont put it past him again as he is ruthless.

Najeh Davenpoop

May 25th, 2011
12:59 pm

“to date NO team has rebuilt the way the hawks and blazers wanted to from the bottom up through the draft with a core after blowing it up and gotten to the championship. the bulls tried it first and failed, now okc, sans seattle, is in the hot seat.”

That’s mainly because usually when a team manages to land one superstar in the draft, they no longer suck badly enough to draft high enough to land another one in subsequent years. As we have seen before and continue to see now, a one-superstar team generally isn’t enough to go all the way. The Thunder got lucky and sucked badly enough in KD’s first year to get the #4 pick the next year and get Westbrook. Rarely do you see teams lucky/sucky enough to draft two stars in back to back years. That gives the Thunder a major leg up on previous teams who have tried to go down that path.

If the Hawks had gone with CP3 and Rudy Gay in ‘05/’06, or even Danny Granger and Rajon Rondo, maybe they would be in position to contend right now with a team built through the draft. That’s another problem. Teams that build internally have to hit on their draft picks. The Thunder have done that for the most part.

Najeh Davenpoop

May 25th, 2011
1:04 pm

Also, the Thunder’s entire core except Perkins is below 25 if I’m not mistaken as are some of their role players. Westbrook/KD/Harden/Ibaka/Maynor are all young. They have a lot of room for growth as a team. For them to get this far already is a good sign that they can go farther in the future.

If KD hits the weight room in the offseason, Westbrook doesn’t go all Marbury on KD, and they get a post scorer for the bench, they are the favorites to win the West next year in my opinion.

O'Brien

May 25th, 2011
1:24 pm

Ken,

As Rod said, the deal proposed was not an even Al for Bogut swap. There were other pieces included in the deal.

I would love to keep Al…if he dedicates himself to being the best Center he can be. He is a 2 time All-Star at Center, and All-NBA at Center, but it is becoming obvious that he wants to spend more time on the perimeter playing PF. Thats not what the Hawks need.

And LD is to blame as well. He has played Al at PF at the expense of playing Josh at SF (which also led to more jumpers from Josh). And LD is on record as saying “Al would be a beast” at PF. But we need Al in the post, playing Center.

O'Brien

May 25th, 2011
1:29 pm

Najeh,

Hawks had a #2 pick, a #3 pick, a #5 pick, and a #6 pick all in the span of 4 years. If we get 2 of those picks right (instead of just one, the #3), Hawks would be in a better position (imo).

Who knows, maybe they wouldnt have been forced to give JJ 6 years, $124 mil, because they would have had other options.

Astro Joe

May 25th, 2011
1:41 pm

Memphis has had a ton of lottery picks. So have the Clippers, Warriors, 76ers, T’wolves, etc. In the scheme of things, the Hawks are doing far better than most teams who had 3-5 consecutive years of lottery picks.

doc

May 25th, 2011
1:51 pm

najeh, just continuing to point out, it is a failed model for a championship.

Rod from College Park

May 25th, 2011
2:46 pm

“ROD FROM CP-It would be foolish for anyone to enter into a discussion with you about MWilliams. When it comes to Marvin, you’re far to biased, closed minded and unreceptive to even come close to entertaining an intelligent, open minded thought.”

You can call me a lot of things, but you can’t say I was wrong. He was a bum when he was drafted, and he’s an even bigger bum now. He us the best interviewer on the team, but he will never be a decent NBA basketball player, no matter how many excuses you want to keep making for him.

Mike is Back

May 25th, 2011
3:52 pm

Big Ray, why shouldn’t Al have to earn the PF position…like Teague had to earn PT…I’m a huge Al fan…but right now Al is a couple of years away from holding down the PF position…so why not wait before we just hand the job over to Al…and see how the ownership situation pans out.

Doc, I would do the Bogut trade for Al in a heartbeat…however, I doubt if the Buck would…they would probably want Josh instead.

Astro Joe

May 25th, 2011
3:59 pm

Mike is Back, the twin line-up helped us beat the Magic and win games against the Bulls. What other hurdle do you want Al to jump over before deciding that the team is better when he is playing PF?

O'Brien

May 25th, 2011
5:07 pm

Mike is Back,

In terms of talent, I think Josh is a better PF than Al. And Josh is definitely a better PF than he is SF.

AJ,

What other hurdle do you want Al to jump over before deciding that the team is better when he is playing PF..

I assume that was sarcasm…

Astro Joe

May 25th, 2011
5:08 pm

Lakers hire an “outsider” and give him 4 years while the Hawks hire someone they’ve known for 6 years and offer him a 2 year deal. Brown walks in the door with a much more credibility than an extended interim head coach. I guess that is one of the many differences between how a championship franchise is run vs. one that has never entered a conference finals.

Astro Joe

May 25th, 2011
5:13 pm

OB, no sarcasm. I get that Horford’s stats sucked in the playoffs but can one argue that the Twin line-up wasn’t the best one for the Hawks? Or was it just coincidence that even in the Bulls series, things got a little better (at least for a moment) when Al and Josh moved down a slot?

Ken Strickland

May 25th, 2011
7:05 pm

DOC-Once again we agree. I firmly believe Sund and the ASG will do for Drew exactly what they did for Woodson when he was in the final yr of his contract, and that’s give him exactly what he thinks he needs to earn an extension. I seriously doubt that LDrew is dumb enough to what JJ traded, and I think he liked what he saw from Teague during the Chicago series, and from JSmith the last 2gms of that series.

With his obvious bias towards vet guards, and the way he immediately started Hinrich after the trade, he’ll definitely want to retain him. I just don’t see LDrew wanting to get rid of any of our projected starters, namely PG-JTeague, SG-KHinrich, C-AHorford, PF-JSmith and SF-JJ. I think everyone that finished this season will be brought back, with the exception of JCrawford, JPowell and EThomas. It might be up in the air whether Rolle or Armstrong will be back, since both have simular size and athleticism.

doc

May 25th, 2011
7:13 pm

rolle is signed for next year and why they did it, i think i read.

i think hinrich could come off the bench but play a lot of minutes but he may be lead guard and have teague play 20 minutes or so with kirk at two depending on match ups. i though ld and kirk got their act together.

aj they also had enough belief in him to sign him for a cool 18 mil over 4 yrs. that is the money woody got and for 25% of that they hawks got two more wins in the post season. follow the money dude.

O'Brien

May 25th, 2011
9:16 pm

AJ,

Collins was very effective against Orlando. But against the Bulls, he only started 3 games. Games 4, 5 and 6. Look at the numbers;

Game 4: Hawks won, with Horford going 9-11 from the field, 20 pts, 5 rebs, 4 assists.

Game 5: Hawks were down 11 at the end of the first quarter, and ended up losing by 12. Horford had 12 pts (6-13 from the field), 10 rebs in 42 minutes.

Game 6: Hawks were down 10 after the first quarter, and lost by 20. Horford went 2-10, and finished with 7 pts, 4 rebs in 37 minutes.

Against the Bulls, the Collins-Horford starting lineup went 1-2, so I dont think there is enough evidence to say Al at PF worked.

And yet, you dont think Teague should be awarded the starting job next year despite his excellent play in 5 games against the Bulls?

O'Brien

May 25th, 2011
9:19 pm

doc, AJ,

If I’m not mistaken, one of the reasons LD was hired, was because of his association/relationship with the players. Kobe openly endorsed Brian Shaw, but the Lakers still decided to not only bring in an outsider, but also someone who commands a higher salary than Shaw would.

O'Brien

May 25th, 2011
9:26 pm

And to follow up on the Collins lineup against the Bulls, I think one reason for some success in game 4 was the Bulls were caught off guard. But for game 5 and 6, they were able to plan for Collins, and take advantage of the matchup.

Mystikal

May 25th, 2011
10:16 pm

Phil Jackson had Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Kobe Bryant and Shaq. Greg Popovich had Tim Duncan and Ginobli. Even if hawks were to bring in the best of coaches, they can’t do much with this roster. Not saying that Larry Drew is the answer, but he is not the biggest problem.

ATLANTA FANS SUCK!!! Or the hawk fans do anyway. Love em when they’re doing will, but struggle and the truth comes out. People were crying about we need a big man for the longest. We
get Al Horford and he’s put in work from day one. He develops a jump shot and has a bad series against the Bulls and all of a sudden he is soft now? What kind of crap is that? How about giving a guy a chance to succeed before writing him off. Josh Smith takes horrible shots and makes awful decisions half the time but gets benefit of the doubt cause he’s a highight reel guy and plays hard every other game.

Ray

May 25th, 2011
10:26 pm

This is one thing I don’t understand or I find stupid people keep coming up with these trade ideas, and their always trying to bring in an all-star Pg like D-will or CP3, but yet we got Jeff Teague here.

I say if we’re bringing in another PG needs to be one that’s a bit older like 27 and up type older with experience that’s what Teague needs I know he has Nick helping him, but hey it wouldn’t hurt

Astro Joe

May 25th, 2011
10:39 pm

OB , the Twin line-up was used throughout he season and was clearly the superior defensive line-up. And yeah, for some really strange and bizarre reason, I am more inclined to trust that Al Horford can make the adjustment to his “natural” position than I trust that a 6-game wonder can assume the role of starting PG (despite the strong play of a veteran leader at the same position). I have NO idea why I would not equate Teague’s resume to Horford’s resume… biased I guess. (And yes, that was sarcasm). I also truly don’t know what “making Al earn it” means… is LD expected to name his starting center and then make Josh and Al battle for the starting PF? Seriously, I’d love to know the practical application of making Al earn the PF position.

doc, I know the reason for the difference in hiring practices. Too bad… because I think it sets up a head coach to “coach scared” when they know that if a key player goes down for an extended period of time, it could kill half of their guaranteed tenure as a head coach. LD needs the same thing that McMillan has in Portland… dude is about to work for his 3rd GM without ever getting to the 2nd round with the Blazers. Pretty remarkable.

P C

May 25th, 2011
11:38 pm

The biggest “internal” improvement would be for the geniuses at the ASG to wise up and sell the Hawks before the suffer the backlash of the fans for their sale of the Thrashers out from under Atlanta. Many Hawks fans are also Thrashers fans. They may be sorely surprised by the negative impact this could very well create for the Hawks if they choose not to sell them. Thank goodness the Hawks can’t be sold to another city for a king’s ransom due to the arena bond issue, but I’m not going to anymore games as long as ASG owns them. People surprised at their pick of Larry Drew need look no further than letting Waddell himself coach the Thrashers. End of story.

[...] link: Hawks Fans: Internal improvement suggestions | Atlanta Hawks: Fan Nest This entry was posted in Hawks, Uncategorized and tagged conference, hawks, with-the-conference, [...]

vava74

May 26th, 2011
6:58 am

AJ,

Brown will be fire from his LA gig before the end of the season.

He was just a bizarre mix between Woody (focus on D, no offense) and LD (non disciplinarian).

Basically, he was an enabler who was there to keep Lebrat happy and in control.

O'Brien

May 26th, 2011
7:28 am

AJ,

It was another blogger who mentioned letting Al “earn it”, and I dont think LD should do that. Also, I am not comparing Teague’s resume with Al.

My point was based on the playoffs results, there was not enough of a sample size to say the Al-Collins lineup was successful enough to implement full time, just like Teague’s 5 game performance is not enough of a sample size to make him the starter full time.

As for the Al-Collins regular season lineup, they had good results defensively, but the results are skewed because LD used it mostly in games where he felt it would be most advantageous. After all, Collins only started 28 games (34% of the season), 4 of which came against Orlando.

I think the Collins lineup should only be used when the matchup is advantageous, not full time, just like how the switching defense should have been used when the matchup was advantageous, instead of switching every game all the time, only to see it get exploited in the playoffs.

O'Brien

May 26th, 2011
7:32 am

vava,

Brown will be fire from his LA gig before the end of the season..

Didnt you have some reservations about Thibs and the Bulls this past season?

The Lakers did not consult Kobe for his opinion on the hire, so I think the key for Brown will be who he hires on his coaching staff.

vava74

May 26th, 2011
7:53 am

OB,

Yes, I had reserves on Thibs, but this was mainly because I believed that he was kind of a second coming of Skiles or SVG: a guy who gets so intense on players that after a while they tune him out and the effect wears off.

This year, against us, he dispelled that when he reduced his whole time out speech in one game in which the Bulls were collapsing and nearly lost a game to us to: “just breathe guys, just breathe deep, breathe, breathe… and now lets play ball” when I was expecting him to pull a SVG on them.

Sports analysis (by fans and non fans) is NOT an exact science :-D

With Thibs we knew that he was a very good defensive coach.

With Brown we know that he is not a very good HC but merely a guy who rode Lebrat’s talents.

O'Brien

May 26th, 2011
8:14 am

I am big fan of OKC. But Scott Brooks, KD and Westbrook should be getting alot of heat from OKC fans and media.

Anytime a team crumbles in the last 5 minutes of back to back playoff games, you have to question the leadership on the sideline (HC), the floor leader (Westbrook), and the team’s best player (Durant).

vava74

May 26th, 2011
8:21 am

OB,

Brooks made what he could by benching Westbrook in the 4th quarter in the game that ended up being OKC’s only win.

I think that – at least in theory – he could have done that again, but maybe he felt that he had to make a point and let Westbrook – who had 2 turnovers yesterday late in the 4th – learn from his mistakes to prove his point instead of embattling him to the point that would not be in speaking terms for the future (which would probably be what would have happened if Westbrook was benched again).

Nonetheless, I have the impression that there is a bit of Smoove’s way of thinking in Westbrook’s head…

vava74

May 26th, 2011
8:25 am

too many “points” for such a small text :-D but I think you get mine

Mike is Back

May 26th, 2011
8:51 am

AJ, you said the key word for me…when you said move Josh down a slot…that’s all I have been clamoring for…I have always been a HUGE AL FAN…and that hasn’t changed.

I actually agree with you on going Big. I think the 5 don’t necessarily always has to be Collins…CUZ Zaza has definitely step his game up with the increase minutes…he can be relied on too…so for the people focused on Collins…I would just say…the Hawks ability to play Big…catapults the Hawks back into the one of the BIG THREE IN THE EAST.

The reason I said AL should have to earn it…is because if you are going to make a decision to ship Josh out of town…then you are telling me AL…is ready right now…and we both know that is not the case.

LIKE YOU SAID…MOVE JOSH DOWN ONE SLOT…is the way to go…the Hawks don’t need to trade Josh…I think they both can adapt to new roles…and coexist.

Ray

May 26th, 2011
9:11 am

If you ask me I think we should trade Al to the Spurs he’s favorite player is retiring lol. He plays just like him well Duncan may not be retiring, but he is darn near close lol.

My only thing is I hope people understand that if Al doesn’t expand his game this offseason he’s get eaten alive by faster and tougher PF’s. Like Lamarcus Aldridge, Dirk, Amare(you’ve seen the NY game), and other PF’s. Plus I doubt AL becomes and all-star next year if he plays full-time PF, or even All-NBA at all.

vava74

May 26th, 2011
9:27 am

Ray,

Horford’s post game is at best 40% of what Duncan’s is.

Duncan never complained about playing in the post and always battled stronger/faster/meaner players with the same determination.

When Duncan shot from the perimeter it was ONE tool in his game, not the only one.

There is no comparison between the two so I don’t know how can Duncan be Al’s favorite player. At least he is not modeling his game after Duncan’s.

Duncan is called the Big Fundamental, not the Big Crybaby.

O'Brien

May 26th, 2011
9:42 am

vava,

I said the same thing on the other blog. Westbrook reminds me of of a more talented version of Josh. Terrible decision making at times, and terrible shot selection at times. But its magnified for Westbrook, because he is the PG, so he has to get others involved, especially when you have KD on your team.

As for Scott Brooks, he has to get through to his PGs that they need to get the ball to Durant (unless its a case similar to LD’s where the HC can’t get his players to buy in completely).

Mike is Back,

I think ZaZa as the starting Center should be a possibility because although his defense is bad, he is willing to try and bang in the post, he may get some offensive rebounds, and he usually provides some energy/hustle. And with entended minutes and a defined role, he usually plays better.

But I’m still not sold on Josh at SF, unless Josh makes a conscious effort to focus on defense and rebounding, and let the game come to him (and cut back on his jumpers).

vava74

May 26th, 2011
10:54 am

I would probably invite Hilton to the training camp and see if he is motivated to stay with us.

Just like Lionel Hollins said last year (a theme that was profusely discussed in the main blog) a balanced roster must have players with complementary skills.

The basic fact is that apart from Josh, we don’t have any shot blockers and Hilton fits the bill, at least in theory.

Also, his minutes against Amar’e (a regular season home game we lost) and then against Howard (second game he played) were encouraging.

I believe that some of Collins post defense savvy rubbed on Hilton. Actually, I would “sponsor” Collins staying with us not only as a player but also as a coach.

I think his basketball IQ is extremely high and that he will be – if he is up to it – a very good coach in the league.

Astro Joe

May 26th, 2011
11:48 am

I don’t think it is wise to assume that playoff performances can be repeated in the regular season. Zaza, for example, is allowed to play a more physical brand of ball during the playoffs than the regular season. IMO, if you started Zaza in the regular season, he maybe sitting with 2 fouls after the first 4 minutes of the game. That’s the other ting about Teague’s playoff performance, we don’t know if he pulled a “Zaza” and approached the postseason with more aggression and focus than he would a long, drawn-out regular season. Putting on your game face against Derrick Rose is a lot easier than coming prepared to play a Tuesday night game against DJ Augustine. That is one of the reasons why I’m not as quick to extrapolate 6 terrific playoff games into 82 regular season contests. There simply isn’t enough data available.

The Thunder are going through what most NBA teams MUST go through… some rough patches before obtaining greater success. As much as want to believe that the path is linear, it is most often more like a roller-coaster. I still believe that they were the benefactors of tremendous match-ups (moreso than being a conference finals-worthy team). Kudos to Rick Carlisle… he has transformed Dallas into a much more balanced team that actually plays very good defense.

doc

May 26th, 2011
12:29 pm

when zaza got here it was said he was soft. he flopped and rarely fouled. since he was our only center i thought that might be by design. look back. he wasnt a foul machine his first years here. he has developed a different game but i think if he was a starter he would not get the fouls called on him as his role would change as well. he has shown adaptability. this is not an endorsement he start just to point out how his game and role changed into him being more the enforcer type rather than the finesse type of player.

Astro Joe

May 26th, 2011
1:16 pm

doc, I’ll buy that. And if that is true, that would be another reason to keep him on the bench… because that would effectively take away our sole banger (or most consistent banger).

I wonder if Byron Scott regrets taking the Cavs job or if he already knew that the Lakers would not likely hire him?

Najeh Davenpoop

May 26th, 2011
2:06 pm

“I think that – at least in theory – he could have done that again, but maybe he felt that he had to make a point and let Westbrook – who had 2 turnovers yesterday late in the 4th – learn from his mistakes to prove his point”

I don’t think Westbrook is nearly as much to blame for last night’s loss as he was for a couple of their earlier losses. The fact is that KD’s current inability to shake physical defense screws up a lot of their plays. And in the 4th quarter yesterday it actually seemed to me like Maynor was a bigger culprit for poor decision making than Westbrook.

I think Brooks, Westbrook, and Durant would be taking a lot more heat for their last two collapses if they were three or four years older as a team. But an extremely young Thunder team was expected to run into experience-related problems against a Mavs team full of grizzled veterans. The Thunder’s three best players can’t even rent a car yet. If collapses like this continue in subsequent years the heat will start to turn up.

brigadierjerry

May 26th, 2011
2:28 pm

Interesting that the Thunder played better last night when James Harden was running the point. He is an underrated player, always liked him from Arizona State

Ken Strickland

May 26th, 2011
2:37 pm

OBRIEN-It doesn’t matter how many additional pieces are included in this proposed trade, the primary focus of this trade suggestion will always be centers Bogut and Horford. Let’s suppose we make this trade, and we ended up with Bogut at C and Josh at PF.

With Bogut as our inside OFF presence, wouldn’t that leave Josh on the perimeter with few options other than shooting those ill advised long range jumpers? If anyone is concerned about balance, having Bogut posted in the lane limits Josh’s ability to be more effective offensively.

Horford, because of his deadly accurate midrange jumper, would be a much better fit @ PF along side Bogut than Josh. It would provide our frontline, and overall OFF, with far more balance. Bogut would be Mr inside and Horford would be Mr outside. So, it would make far more sense, and be far more beneficial, for the Hawks to trade Smith and whatever else for Bogut, rather than Horford.

IT seems that I differ in approach and reasoning from a lot of you because I’m a major fan of the ATLANTA HAWK TEAM, not players like Bynum, Bogut, Kaman or Camelo. And I’m certainly not a JJ, Marvin, Josh, or Horford hater. This allows me to see things from a perspective that’s not clouded by emotions and/or personal issues.

KHINRICH-He’s an asset, and his OFF versatility, leadership ability, and DEF toughness makes him a perfect compliment to JJ and JTeague.

JTEAGUE-He demonstrated, under pressure packed playoff conditions, what I’ve said he was capable of doing all along. What’s more, he did it against the leagues MVP, the NBA’s best DEF, and he did it consistently. He and Hinrich could easily form one of the NBA’s most versatile and effective OFF/DEF back courts.

The improvement that will be realized by having a Teague/Hinrich backcourt will all by itself make a vast improvement over the MBibby/JCrawford dependence MWoodson and LDrew burdened this team with. JJ would give us OFF production at SF that hasn’t been approached since the days when Nique manned the SF position. We wouldn’t lose much, if anything, defensively or rebounding wise.

While it would be nice to have a dominant presence in the middle, Miami and Dallas have proven it’s not necessary. When you don’t have it, instead of whinning, crying and bitching about it, or depleting your team of valuable talent just to get it, you should modify your approach and your OFF/DEF philosophy.

Instead of constantly complaining and making an issue of your perceived liabilities, and/or what you don’t have, you should concentrate all of your efforts on taking maximum advantage of what you do have. When you decide to invest in one of the fastest, quickest and most expensive sports cars on the market, you don’t insist on having a 4cylinder VW engine installed to run it.

That’s how Woodson and Drew handicapped the Hawks with Bibby. And misusing Jamal as our backup PG hurt the Hawks and Jamal. A back court of Hinrich and Teague could allow this team to be the quick, fast sports car it was intended to be all along. We should give these adjustments and changes to what we already have a chance to work. If it doesn’t, we can get rid of the players everyone wants to blame for everything and the HC, who’s contract will have expired.

Rod from College Park

May 26th, 2011
6:39 pm

“With Bogut as our inside OFF presence, wouldn’t that leave Josh on the perimeter with few options other than shooting those ill advised long range jumpers? If anyone is concerned about balance, having Bogut posted in the lane limits Josh’s ability to be more effective offensively.

Horford, because of his deadly accurate midrange jumper, would be a much better fit @ PF along side Bogut than Josh. It would provide our frontline, and overall OFF, with far more balance. Bogut would be Mr inside and Horford would be Mr outside. So, it would make far more sense, and be far more beneficial, for the Hawks to trade Smith and whatever else for Bogut, rather than Horford.

IT seems that I differ in approach and reasoning from a lot of you because I’m a major fan of the ATLANTA HAWK TEAM, not players like Bynum, Bogut, Kaman or Camelo. And I’m certainly not a JJ, Marvin, Josh, or Horford hater. This allows me to see things from a perspective that’s not clouded by emotions and/or personal issues.”

LOL. So now offense is the only side of the ball that matters. You failed to mention how much better our team would be defensively with Bogut and Josh as compared to Bogut and Horford. You also failed to mention how much more versatile the offense would be because Josh is a much more versatile player than Horford. If you did not watch the playoffs, Horford’s deadly accurate midrange jumper is not so deadly when someone is in his face, which is what happened in the playoffs, and what will happen with him playing the 4. He does not posess that lateral quickness to blow by 4’s like he does centers.

Your perspective is not clouded as you say but is sure seemed clouded as you blamed all of the Hawks problems on Woodson and Bibby. You sure continue to make a number of excuses for Marvin and Horford. I rarely if ever see you making any positive comments about Josh. For all his faults, Josh was easily our second best player in the playoffs, if not our best. If thats not clouded and showing personal bias, I don’t know what is.

Big Ray

May 26th, 2011
7:51 pm

The article about Smith for Bynum almost had me chuckling. Too bad it’s too bogus to even be worth speculating about.

First, when the Lakers come calling about Howard, they’ll be dangling Bynum as part of the deal. All the haggling will be about who else is included.

Big Ray

May 26th, 2011
8:01 pm

You also failed to mention how much more versatile the offense would be because Josh is a much more versatile player than Horford. If you did not watch the playoffs, Horford’s deadly accurate midrange jumper is not so deadly when someone is in his face, which is what happened in the playoffs, and what will happen with him playing the 4. He does not posess that lateral quickness to blow by 4’s like he does centers.

1) Josh is more versatile through potential, not through production. Potential versatility is what keeps him a steady stable of fans. It’s also what has kept him from becoming an all-star. Because potential is something that hasn’t happened yet.

2) The part about Horford’s deadly jumper not being so deadly when someone is in his face – a couple of thoughts on that. First, teams will guard guys who they know can hurt them. It’s called respect. Strange how Horford was met with tenacious defense whenever he thought about taking a jumper (or doing anything else). How about Smith? I watched the games. Teams layed off of Josh everytime he wound up for a jumper. That’s called “you’re going to have to prove to us that you can hurt us before we bother to guard you.” Having said that, Horford has to work on getting his shot whether he’s being guarded or not. Or, making a play for somebody else. But the latter part would be difficult unless other guys are either making cuts to the basket (didn’t happen much) or were open for shots they could hit (again, wasn’t happening much).

3) Al’s post game needs work. I get the feeling that if he went and practiced with somebody who teaches that stuff well, he’d learn something and we’d see it on the court. But it may not happen if either he decides he’d rather stay outside as a shooting PF (something I can’t see going that well), or if Drew and company insist on playing him there. I wonder how much of this is Drew wanting Horford at the 4, Josh’s inability to be a banger/fundamental rebounder, or Marvin’s sucking so bad that somebody else had to be in the starting lineup…

Big Ray

May 26th, 2011
8:04 pm

Ken,

There is a lot Teague can do. IF he maintains a professional attitude. This business of “I play hard and aggressive if I know I’m going to get playing time” thing bugs me. He has to come in hot and heavy and STAY that way. One playoff series will not guarantee him the starter’s spot for all time. He still has to show/strut his stuff in training camp this fall. Otherwise, it’s back to the bench.

I greatly appreciate what we saw from him against Chicago. He has to bring it like that all the time. For 82 games.

Big Ray

May 26th, 2011
8:05 pm

Vava ,

Agreed – roster balance is comprised of exactly that. I like to have guys who can block or challenge shots at the rim, but I also look at that as a complimentary skill, not something that you hang a starter’s spot on. We need better position and help defense across the five positions far more than we need a guy who can swat a couple of shots per game.

Look at the way the Bulls are able to play defense. Do they have a true shot blocker? Nope. What they do have, despite guys like Carlos Boozer, is guys who defend their own positions well, as well as a scheme that defends mutiple guys well and helps out without giving up points on double teams.

More to the point, they have guys who buy into and regularly execute that scheme. Too bad they don’t have the offense needed to combat a star-studded team like the Heat. To beat a team like that, a good offense is as much a part of a good defense as the defense itself. Meaning, a good offense makes the other team work hard on defense (something the Heat can struggle with, as we shall see against Dallas), and then have to work hard on offense against a good defense.

O'Brien

May 26th, 2011
9:42 pm

Big Ray,

This is from an old Jeff Schultz blog “Al Horford an All-Star at center but he’s taking a beating.”

How good would he be as a power forward? “He’d be a beast,” coach Larry Drew said.

He is taking a beating, particularly at the defensive end. Drew is trying to minimize the issue by going with a “big” lineup about 40 percent of the time: Horford moves to power forward, Josh Smith to small forward, Jason Collins steps in at center and Marvin Williams goes to the bench.

Drew admitted, “I’ve even thought of making the change permanent.”.

So I think LD is giving Al more ammunition in believing that he would be a beast at PF, and LD has said openly he has considered making Al the full time PF. With the HC making those kind of comments, I think Hawks will have to play Josh at SF, trade Josh, or trade Horford.

niremetal

May 26th, 2011
9:53 pm

Big co-sign to Ray’s 8:04.

O'Brien

May 26th, 2011
10:50 pm

We saw Kurt Thomas make Al’s life difficult in the playoff against the Bucks. And then we decide to sign Josh Powell and Etan Thomas in FA.

Bulls sign Kurt Thomas, and he is giving them good minutes in tonight’s game. I think one reason why he signed with the Bulls is they gave him a 2 year at a little more than the vet min. but Rick’s history suggests that he only does one year vet min deals.

I think we could have used Kurt Thomas.

doc

May 26th, 2011
11:34 pm

ken s, you convinced yet that miami is going to be good?

man for 5 years i have cried out the name of ken thomas. worst move the suns made was to get rid of him for nothing!

Rod from College Park

May 27th, 2011
12:08 am

Big Ray,

“1) Josh is more versatile through potential, not through production. Potential versatility is what keeps him a steady stable of fans. It’s also what has kept him from becoming an all-star. Because potential is something that hasn’t happened yet.

2) The part about Horford’s deadly jumper not being so deadly when someone is in his face – a couple of thoughts on that. First, teams will guard guys who they know can hurt them. It’s called respect. Strange how Horford was met with tenacious defense whenever he thought about taking a jumper (or doing anything else). How about Smith?”

I know that you know what versatile is. I really don’t even have to go in depth about that. Josh is more versatile period. Potental/Production……LOL. What has kept Josh out of the All star game is better forwards than him period. Al Horford would not have been an All Star at the forward spot at any point in his career either. Horford is a better jump shooter from 15 feet, better rebounder, free throw shooter and shoots a better percentage from the field. That’s it. Josh is a better scorer, defender, better play maker, better ball handler, better shot blocker, better at steals, better post game, draws more fouls, normally affects the game more than Horford. Just look at the career stats.

Horford was met with tenacious D (LOL). Orlando or Chicago never worried about Horford on D, they simply told his man not to leave him. They played him tight, never doubled him and knew that there was no risk of him putting the ball on the floor and going by his man. They played him like we played Kyle Korver. Just don’t leave him open for the jump shot. I guess teams don’t respect Jason Kidd, because they have left him open for jump shots his whole career. Like Josh, teams just don’t respect their jump shots, but both players have the ability to beat you in other ways. If Horford’s jumper ain’t falling, his offensive game is done.

O'Brien

May 27th, 2011
7:07 am

First OKC, and Now Chicago. It sucks watching these teams crumble under pressure.

Against the Hawks, there was a game where Thibs kept Boozer and Noah on the bench for the entire 4th quarter, and it worked. But I think he stuck with his bench too long in the 4th last night.

And although I am not a LeBrat fan, dude has made some great plays this postseason, first against Boston, and now against Miami, offensively and defensively. I hope our players realize the importance of playing defense.

And although I am not a Miami fan, congrats to Bibby, who makes it to the NBA finals and gets a chance at a ring.

honest_abe

May 27th, 2011
10:10 am

lbj is still “the king”.. love him or hate him he’s still the best basketball player in the world. hands down. nobody in nba history has the ability to affect so many different aspects of a game.

i dont’ think la has to dangle anything to get dwight. i believe he’ll opt out of his contract in 2012. if the magic do decide to trade him next year it’ll be “melo” drama all over again. i wonder if the magic would prefer bynum+trash over something atlanta could offer up. jj+al? smith and howard would be a nightmare defensively. scary thought.

doc

May 27th, 2011
11:42 am

let his coronation begin after he wins a title, honest. i still remember him walking off the floor classless one year then quitting the next to show up for the decision. yes his time will come but the difference in him and rose when it comes to class is hands down going to the mvp this year. that is what kingdom is about even if he wins a title with his merry jesters at his side. sorry, his head still betrays his physical attributes.

Astro Joe

May 27th, 2011
11:46 am

Abe, assuming the CBA/cap rules are similar, the Lakers wouldn’t be able to offer Howard more than chump change because of their existing salaries… so they would have to trade for him.

wordsmithtom

May 27th, 2011
12:14 pm

His head is big: it has to be. He has a bigger mouth than a largemouth bass. Check his photo on today’s AJC. That’s just AWESOME.

Rod from College Park

May 27th, 2011
12:33 pm

vava74

May 27th, 2011
12:38 pm

Rod:
“Horford’s deadly accurate midrange jumper is not so deadly when someone is in his face, which is what happened in the playoffs, and what will happen with him playing the 4. He does not posess that lateral quickness to blow by 4’s like he does centers.”

Exactomundo!

Horford is a fool for wanting to play PF where his limited game is exposed against the best PFs in the game.

And indeed, during the playoffs opponents simply got a guy to stay on him or close out quickly whenever he got the ball in his sweet spots, transforming his usually accurate but highly consented mid range shots into clunkers.

The simple fact is that teams work a lot based on scouting reports which date from the previous season and Al was left open throughout MOST of the regular season since no one knew he could knock those shots.

And I “know” this why?

Because watching games on league pass I got the hear the opposing team’s telecast and throughout most of the the season and almost until its very end THEY SEEMED SURPRISED WITH HORFORD’s RANGE and ACCURACY (”he’s knocking those shots now, he has become danger from the midrange” was a frequent commentary from February onward.

Enter the playoffs and scouting reports were adjusted / adapted and Diaper Al stopped having clean looks from the elbow and the baseline as he did during the season and was forced to rush shots (or pass)… the result was that he suddenly started clunking everything (and amassing assists).

So, next year expect tighter defenses and lower FG%.

This unless Diaper Al suddenly develops a consistent 3 point shot and surprises everyone again allowing him to go through most of the season with guys leaving him open from that range.

Funny enough (not funny at all), Diaper Al has already announced that over the summer he wants to expand his range now that he realized that in the playoffs his midrange shots were highly contested.

He is a smart but extremely soft guy who is simply buying time with yet another gimmick. By the end of next year we will have “Channing Frye 2.0″ in our hands.

vava74

May 27th, 2011
1:22 pm

Rod from College Park

May 27th, 2011
3:41 pm

vava74,

We agree again. Wow. It’s really not that hard to see. I guess folks hatred of Josh, makes them not see the obvious with Horford. This is two playoffs back to back where he disappeared and turned into the stay puff marshmellow man. You can fool me once, but it won’t happen twice.

Ray

May 27th, 2011
4:04 pm

@ honest_abe

Think you might want to look back at a guy named Ervin Johnson, and least us not forget the Jumpman himself lol.

One thing about Lebron James is his legacy has been dented and trashed after “The Decision.” crap that pretty much put a lid on this guy even being named into the legendary players of the game. Plus these other guys did it as the leader of their team I honestly hope no one here, or anywhere thinks Lebum James is the leader of the Miami Heat.

@ Rod

I think people are going to see next season why Horford was better off at center quickly especially if he doesn’t do a thing to refine his game for the PF position. As for LD’s comments about Horford being a beast he probably thought Marvin was and is a beast right now lol.

Ray

May 27th, 2011
4:09 pm

I think the blog monster ate my post I guess.

doc

May 27th, 2011
4:47 pm

thanks vava for the piece on the zen man

vava74

May 27th, 2011
7:13 pm

Rod,

Yeah! It’s bleeping obvious!

I was actually a huge horford fan since I thought that he was a hard nosed warrior who was willing to go against bigger guys and used his superior quickness, agility and ability to score on transition to make his dent.

Initially, when i saw him develop his midrange shot i was happy since i thought that he would use it to draw opposing centers away from the paint in order to drive more.

Unfortunately that was not the case. Now He is mostly away from the paint and runs away from physical players and from any contact down low.

Following last year’s playoffs our emotional and selective memories as fans made us think that this happened only with howard, but itactually started with kurt thomas and we should have added 2 and 2.

Josh may have plenty of issues but at least he ia notba coward.

Ray

May 27th, 2011
9:51 pm

Well the worse has happened The Sund has spoketh lol, and again another summer no changes except cutting someone like Etan Thomas or Armstrong, and in turn replacing them with another scrub. At least last year we had a draft pick in the first round now it’s hoping and praying we get some diamond in the rough in the 2nd round.

Maybe Keith Benson from Oakland he’s 6′11 and a C yeah I know he’s not 7′0, but hey you don’t have to be 7′0 to be a great Center.

Ray

May 27th, 2011
9:52 pm

Wow umm Big Ray can ya help me out with the blog monster I think it ate multiple posts now lol.

O'Brien

May 27th, 2011
10:23 pm

Excellent interview with Rick Sund on the other blog;

And just as we predicted….“There are only three teams that have made it to the conference semifinals three consecutive years: L.A., Boston and us.” Rick Sund .

O'Brien

May 27th, 2011
10:27 pm

More from Rick;

He (Teague) just had an opportunity where he got an opportunity for consecutive playing time and he responded well. And that’s what you have to do in this league, when your opportunity comes, take advantage of it. And to his credit, I think most of the time he has had an opportunity. . . . . .

O'Brien

May 27th, 2011
11:17 pm

And what Rick failed to mention is that of the 3 teams, (LA, Boston, and us), LA and Boston made it to multiple NBA finals, and won a championship. Hawks have yet to win 3 games in the second round.

E43

May 28th, 2011
1:28 am

DOC-
LBJ might have walked away from his team but he never really promised them he would remain in Cleveland forever. His only mistake was saying that he wouldn’t rest until he took a title to Cleveland. I wasn’t really surprised when he bailed out on them especially after his actions/reactions after playoff losses. Was it wrong that he left? Yes but only because he promised them a championship and didn’t deliver. To add on to the fire, Cleveland had this vision of Lebron being their full-time slave because he grew up in ohio and they paid the ultimate price. Its like a marriage where they say “till death do us part.” They should change it to “till your of no convenience…”

doc

May 28th, 2011
4:18 am

e43, you might have missed my point. queen mentally and physically quit last year when he saw his team begin to falter in the playoffs after a great regular season. that and walking off the court the year before will stick with me. he had every right to move from cleveland and i applaud that and riles putting the moves on to get him.that is the business of the nba. i just dont respect the hype that went around it because he didnt deserve it. he is a wonderful talent with little class or maturity. he seems to be making amends a bit under riles tutelage and the adversity along with his side kicks who are very talented. it is more about them than him. just the same ill stay in the rose camp as the way to lead.

vava74

May 28th, 2011
5:53 am

joe

May 28th, 2011
6:19 am

the Hawks resign JJ, Marvin and Bibby under the watchful eyes of Sund. So they resign him this off season. Then he has the nerve to say they are “close to moving to the next level” They are a totally inept organization and deserve whatever they get………..

Ray

May 28th, 2011
10:26 am

So everyone read the article about what Sund was saying then?

O'Brien

May 28th, 2011
11:07 am

From the point forward on si.com;

Atlanta fans might rejoice at the notion of the team amnesty-ing its way out of the $107 million it will owe Joe Johnson over the next five seasons. But that’s unrealistic because the amnesty proposal would still require teams to pay the waived player.

Johnson might be overpaid, but he’s still productive, and a team with a recent history of dodging the luxury tax is not going to shell out $107 million just to get Johnson off its cap figure. That leaves Marvin Williams, who is set to make about $25 million over the next three seasons>.

O'Brien

May 28th, 2011
11:43 am

doc,

Hawks have their own leadership issues too, despite 3 captains. And I think if we had one very good leader (even if its on the sidelines), this same team would have better results.

Melvin

May 28th, 2011
12:17 pm

OB,

I suggested several weeks back that if there’s an amnesty rule in the new CBA, then Marvin would be a prime candidate for the Hawks but I was laugh off the blog. Funny that one of the media outlets shares the same view as me…

niremetal

May 28th, 2011
1:22 pm

Melvin,

I don’t remember anyone arguing with the notion that Marvin would be the one the Hawks would let go if there were an amnesty provision. Laughed off the blog? Ooook…

harpie

May 28th, 2011
1:49 pm

With Larry Drew as coach, nothing else matters. The Hawks will be mediocre, at best, as long as he is the “coach”…

O'Brien

May 28th, 2011
1:56 pm

Here is the rest of the article;

http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/05/17/who-would-be-waived-under-amnesty-clause/

By proces of elimination, it has to be Marvin. JJ, Josh and Al are too talented to be paid to go away, ZaZa can be a good backup Center at times, and Hinrich is valuable and is expiring.

myrak43

May 28th, 2011
2:39 pm

noone is untouchable from trade on the Hawks. but here is a list of our assets listed in the order of who is most available or more likely to be moved and a brief discription of why.

Marvin Williams- is the first player we would like to move but not for a salary dump. we need a center. Marvin could be had for a center with some upside or a vet center that is a clear upgrade over what we have but may have some injury concerns. ex. Robin Lopez or Kaman.

Zaza- Zaza is our only center we have under contract. but he is best as a back up.however it wouldn’t make any sense unless it is a clear upgrade over Zaza because of how good his contract is. he could be added in a trade with anyone to get us a starting calibre center.

Horford- could be had but it would have to be a true center that would be an instint upgrade. ex Pau Gasol or Bogut.

Josh Smith- he is the heart and soul of the Hawks defense. he is also the most vesatile player we have. and so we would only move Smith for a fringe star center or packaged for a super star type player. ex send Smith packaged with draft picks and horford for a resigned Horward or maybe Smith for Nene.

Teague and Kirk- I included them the same because they are our point guards and we have been trying for 6 years to find one point gaurd. now that it looks like we have two, I feel that the hawks would have to be blown away to move either. it is just to hard to find a good point guard….. for us that is. not sure what or how to value a center coming back to the hawks that these two could bring. but it would have to be a no brainer.

JJ- could be moved but it would have to make sense. he is our best player and with his salary it will be hard to move. that is why I have him listed last. but we are not looking to just dump his salary. we would need some value coming back.

so there you have it people. those are our parts. we need a center.
what you got?

yodaddy

May 28th, 2011
4:23 pm

yall people have the dumbest trade ideas

Josh Smith and Marvin Williams for STEVE BLAKE????? and Andrew Bynum??? WTH are yall smoking on??? Why would the Hawks want Artest???? If you thought Smith was a headcase good luck with Artest.

lmao at that Bucks trade….we will trade our team of winners for a pack of perennial losers yeah right.

Horford + Sy for Rockets 2 HOF Picks, Thabeet & Hill

May 28th, 2011
4:52 pm

@yodaddy

perennial losers?
Last 4 years
Andrew Bogut’s +/- is +4.2. Josh’s is +4.3.
Al Horford’s is 1.4. Hamed Haddaddi’s is 1.4. Brendan Haywood is 1.4.
All Horford does is rebound. For 3 years of college his offensive +/- is 0.1. Guess what Josh Smith’s is. 0.1.

But you have yet to find a way to find a team willing to take back Marvin or gain depth. Marvin Williams and Kirk Hinrich are not perennial winners.
lmao if Smith is traded for a backup center and Hinrich starts for the Hawks at the 2. Then you become the Washington Wizards.

Horford + Sy for Rockets 2 HOF Picks, Thabeet & Hill

May 28th, 2011
5:02 pm

In addition to scouting them I included measurements that suggest similar comparisons and similar physical toolboxes.
D.M. the post play and 15 foot & 3pt shot is present in D.M. only thing he does is like Blake Griffin he has short arms and gives up a bit defensively. I think Clippers are happy with Blake though. He takes jumpers. 7′0 Motiejunas shoots accurately with his height advantage like Garnett.
a perfect glue guy.

Jeff Teague/Joe Johnson/Josh Smith/Donatas Motiejunas*/Hasheem Thabeet
Kirk Hinrich/Travis Leslie*/(Marvin Williams)/Jordan Hill/Zaza Pachulia
:::::
Houston gets

Al Horford
Pape Sy

Atlanta gets

Hasheem Thabeet
Jordan Hill
14th pick
23rd pick
:::
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3to95gw

don’t know what the Rockets game plan is but this team basically turned
>>>Jason Collins into Thabeet.
Al Horford >>>
1) potential Dwyane Wade/Tony Allen with offense off the bench (no talent drop off):o ,
2) potential Zach Randolph (measurements fit here as well), some say small arms are detriment for bigs but its all about proportions.

3) Moved Marvin a guy who has the arms of a center and moves like it to the bench in favor of Josh Smith a guy who has Lebron’s, Carmelo’s and Thaddeus Young’s points per possession efficiency in 2009-2010.

“After after a summer with Olajuwon, both Kobe Bryant and Josh Smith saw a significant dip in their eFG% around the rim this past season. 6-8 Josh Smith (PF) scored less often per possession and less efficiently in the post than many other forwards, including 6-8 LeBron James (SF), 6′10 Lamar Odom (PF), 6′10 Rashard Lewis (PF) and 6′8 Luol Deng (SF) to name a few.

“This doesn’t mean that they’re not learning, however, or that their time with Olajuwon had a negative impact on their post games. In fact, perhaps due to their summer workouts, both Bryant and Smith internalized Olajuwon’s advice and looked to be more active in the post last season. Bryant spent 19.4 percent of his time in the post, an unbelievably high number for a guard, which equaled the amount of time spent in the post by guards Dwyane Wade (6 percent), Brandon Roy (6.3 percent) and Vince Carter (7.1 percent) combined.
Smith worked 18.7 percent of his offense in the post, which was significantly more than the aforementioned forwards James (6.3 percent), Odom (9.4 percent), Lewis (12 percent) and Deng (6.9 percent). Carmelo w Ultimately, it’s quite common for a player to experience a drop in efficiency with a large increase in attempts in a certain area, highlighting what tends to be a negative relationship between frequency and efficiency.” Also at work here may be Smith combating actual bigs like Gasol, Bosh and Garnett.

Ideally at 230-236 he has a higher usage and be able to attack more efficiently and stay out of foul trouble.
:::::
Jeff Teague/Joe Johnson/Josh Smith/Donatas Motiejunas*/Hasheem Thabeet
Kirk Hinrich/Travis Leslie*/(Marvin Williams)/Jordan Hill/Zaza Pachulia

Similar height = similar center of gravity. Similar wingspan often means similar ball control/ability to dunk/shoot over defenders in the post.
Oe a catapult’s trajectory.

There are many different combinations of weight, height, and wingspan, standing reach and vertical as well.
For example

Here are similar

Height Wingspan Weight
Donatas Motiejunas 7′0″ 6′11″ 220 lbs.
Zach Randolph 6′10.25 6′11″ 255
Blake Griffin 6′10″ 6′ 11.25″ 248
Kevin Love 6′ 9.5″ 6′ 11.25″ 255
**Prospectus: 7′0 Boris Diaw/Zach Randolph. why he may fall: nonchalance.

#14 Atlanta Hawks Select: Donatas Motiejunas

Chris Paul 6′ 1″ 6′ 4.25″ 190
Jeff Teague 6′ 1.5″ 6′ 7.5″ 175
Derrick Rose 6′2.5″ 6′ 8″ 196
**Prospectus: skies the limit :D

Jordan Hill 6′10.25 7′1.5″ 232
Amare Stoudemire 6′10 7′ 1.75″ 233
**Prospectus: bootleg Amare, more fluid Al Horford, :D Amare-lite

James Harden 6′ 5.25″ 6′ 10.75″ 222
Dwyane Wade 6′ 4.75″ 6′ 10.75″ 222
Travis Leslie 6′ 4.25″ 6′ 10.5″ 205
Tony Allen 6′ 4.25″ 6′ 9″ 214
#23 Atlanta Hawks Select: Travis Leslie
**Prospectus: low center of gravity, explosive slasher, defend
///////////////

Jeff Teague/Joe Johnson/Josh Smith/Donatas Motiejunas*/Hasheem Thabeet
Kirk Hinrich/Travis Leslie*/(Marvin Williams)/Jordan Hill/Zaza Pachulia

model: 07-08 Celtics/’10-’11 Mavericks

mark

May 28th, 2011
10:01 pm

they need to trade williams not josh smith and get butler and free anegy

Ray

May 28th, 2011
11:40 pm

vava74

May 29th, 2011
4:57 am

Thabbet? Good grief!!! Are trying to get us in the lottery?

If we coukd get Jordan Hill as an energy/hustle guy off the bench i would all for it.

An instant contributor IMO.

Big Ray

May 29th, 2011
11:14 am

Nothing would please me more than the look of chagrin on David Stern’s face as he has to hand the golden Larry O’Brien to Mark Cuban.

Go Dallas.

Big Ray

May 29th, 2011
11:24 am

Vava ,

Agreed. I want no parts of Hasheem “I’m more dense than a bag of hammers” Thabeet.

Meanwhile ,

Rick Sund looks to be halfway tripped up during his usual spin doctoring. Our boy MC seems to have ticked him off. Check the latest blog out….

Ken Strickland

May 29th, 2011
2:30 pm

JSmith wouldn’t be a good compliment to DHoward. If you think Josh shoots too many long range jumpers now, what do you think his options would be with Howard clogging up the lane. Horford, because of his very accurate midrange shooting ability, would be a far better compliment for Howard. With Howard and Smith on our frontline, can you imagine the constant whinning and complaining we’d see from these 2 players?

It’s funny how some of you want the Hawks to get rid of MWilliams at all cost, yet you go all out suggesting we sign a total bust like Hasheem Thabeet. WHERE’S THE LOGIC? There are those who are absessed with thinking we absolutely must have a taller, bigger presence in the middle.

And you seem to think all the Hawks need to do is tell a team that has what we want that they have to trade that center to us, and they would have no option but to accept any player(s) we want to get rid of. Some of you also think DEF is all about blocking shots and making steals, nothing more.

The Denver Nuggets got rid of NBA shot blocking leader, and DEF POY, MCamby, replaced him with Nene, his backup, and almost instantly became a much better team defensively. OF course, the reason Camby blocked so many shots was due to a pourous perimeter DEF, led by PG AIverson. We also saw Denver get better defensively after trading CAnthony, another DEF liability.

I think Sund would have been better off comparing the Hawks situation with that of the Nuggets. Getting rid of Bibby and Jamal, and replacing them with Teague and Hinrich, will definitely improve our perimeter DEF, and DEF overall. Teague should give us the scoring we got from Bibby his 1st yr and a half here, and the speed, quickness, penetrating ability and DEF we never came close to getting.

Hinrich is quicker and faster than JJ, and a better perimeter defender. A backcourt comprised of these 2 will make it a lot harder for players to get in the lane, run their OFF smoothly, and make entry passes into the post. Teague is on a par with LeBron and DWade when it comes to successfully running down and challenging fast breaks.

While most of you are obsessing over us acquiring a type of center that’s realistically all but unattainable for us, I’m very excited about the prospect of seeing the positive impact Teague and Hinrich will have on this team. We saw in the playoffs with Chicago what an impact a quick, fast, athletic, penetrating PG can have on an offensively challenged team.

Astro Joe

May 29th, 2011
3:56 pm

Melvin, I don’t recall anyone disagreeing with you that Marvin would be the primary target. I know that I stated that I didn’t think (and still don’t) that the ASG will do it. Maybe the “laughing” happened on the other blog.

Sund said what he should have said. He’s repeating the team’s successes during his tenure. He’s selling season-tickets to prospective fans… including those who attended the playoffs. Would anyone feel better if he said something that would lower the trade value of his players?

niremetal

May 29th, 2011
3:58 pm

Ray,

I loved how in the interview, 5 of Sund’s responses started with “I don’t know.” :lol:

It’s pretty clear the dude doesn’t like talking to the media. That’s fine as long as he’s talking to other GMs.

Black Superman

May 29th, 2011
7:08 pm

They never should have fired woody… I say this: Get rid of Marvin Williams, Joe Johnson, and any other scrubs this current Hawks administration attracts. We need to get bigger… trade said people for draft picks, maybe even get new scouts… The answer is to get rid of all the jump shooters, get bigger, tougher defensively. My list of all the guys who need to stay: Horford, Smith, Teague, Pachulia, Collins, Hinrich. Who needs to go: MARVIN EFFING WILLIAMS (this guy has set the franchise back about 10 years- what were they thinking when they drafted him… 2nd overall pick), Joe Johnson, and all the others. The problem lies also in ownership… they make too conservative of moves, then get just marginal/complimentary players… I am convinced that the Atlanta sports teams are concerned about just making $$$ and not putting a quality team out there for the fans (been watching the Hawks since the ‘Atlanta’s Air Force’ days) and that’s not right! The owner, all the way down to the popcorn guy should give their all to make this thing work. Overall, the Hawks are a quality team… we just need consistent, competent leadership who makes good decisions, who knows how to get the best out of the players they have to work with.

Astro Joe

May 29th, 2011
10:27 pm

I understand why the Pistons would fire Kuester, what I don’t understand is what he did so poorly in the past 6 weeks that he deserves to be fired NOW. Or said differently, what did he do so well after yet another awful season ended in April, that he deserved to keep his office until the end of May? I suspect that Woody will get a legit shot at the Detroit gig if it becomes available.

Big Ray

May 30th, 2011
6:42 am

AJ ,

That move reeks of indecision or procrastination. Both bad traits in a GM.

Niremetal ,

Good point. I wonder if it’s just about not wanting to talk to the media? The next blog will bring up that point…

O'Brien

May 30th, 2011
7:26 am

AJ, Big Ray,

What I dont understand is how Joe Dumars still has a job. I understand that he is a HOF Piston, and did help bring them the ‘05 championship and they made 5 consecutive trips to the ECF.

However, how long can he last on “credit”. In the summer before the big name FA would become available, he used up all his cap space on Ben Gordon, and Charlie Villanueva. He also drafted Darko over some other all-stars. And not only has his recent coaching hires not worked out, but there has been player rebellions, and bad timing of moves.

Speaking of Ben Gordon though, how awesome would he have been off the bench for this Bulls team?

Big Ray

May 30th, 2011
7:52 am

O’brien ,

Yeah. I think many owners have trouble canning a GM who has had some serious success. Fact is, the smartest move Dumars ever made was hiring Larry Brown (before that became a non-smart move, circa these days).

As for Ben Gordon, I think the Bulls don’t look back with much regret. The man turned down a contract offer from them worth $50 million. I think they wouldn’t have been as deep with him there (at that size of a contract, no way), they would lose out on perimeter defense, and there’s practically no way that Rose would have improved the way he did with Gordon there.

His scoring off the bench would have been awesome. But not $50 million or more worth of awesome. He’s not what I’d call a good role player, and I think that’s why we saw Hinrich in Chicago longer than we did Gordon (besides the money).

Big Ray

May 30th, 2011
7:56 am

New blog up…

vava74

May 30th, 2011
7:58 am