Atlanta Hawks – Slippery slope part II

It’s happening again. The Atlanta Hawks are slipping, and they’re gaining speed as they go down the slope of losing. Sure, teams struggle and that is the nature of the game. Struggling like this is a different story, though.

Writing On the Wall

Rick Sund said the Hawks were essentially playing to stay within the 3rd to 5th seed range of the playoffs. Perhaps we can guess that this means retaining as much as the 5th seed in a conference that has experienced some major moves that have increased the talent level, is acceptable. Maybe this is a reasonable thought, considering that the Hawks would have been hard-pressed to make any moves that could match the splashy significant of the triumvirate in Miami, the acquisition of Carmelo Anthony in New York, or the move that brought Deron Williams to New Jersey. In fact, the only move the Hawks did make seemed rather vanilla to most folks. Sure, it was a good move, but it was never going to be enough. Sund indicated that what the Hawks needed most was to change from within.

So, as the Hawks’ chemistry continues to be a problem, what seemed a distant threat at one time is now creeping up with a nearly inevitable feel – the Hawks are going to fall into the lower seeds of the playoff bracket. Fortunately, they won’t have to worry about falling completely out of the playoffs. Indiana is currently the 8th seed in the conference with a whopping 27 wins, while trying to stave off Charlotte, who has an identical record. So, the Hawks don’t have to worry about teams that are 10 games behind them.

But what of New York and Philadelphia, the current sixth and seventh seeds in the Eastern Conference?

 The Knicks now have a serious swagger and the talent to back it up. They still don’ t play defense well enough to win against the upper echelon of either conference on a consistent basis, but they’re a more credible threat than most, what with their star power. At 34 victories and with a 6-4 record in their last 10 games, the Knicks could overtake the stumbling Hawks.

The Sixers are going about their business much more quietly, but they too have now managed 34 victories after beating Boston tonight. Their record in the last 10 games? Eight victories, two losses. Like the Knicks, the Sixers have struggled at times against the better teams in the League, but they’ve pretty much stomped on those with inferior records. Worse yet, they have something else in common with New York – both have proven they can beat the Hawks into the hardwood this season.

Can Atlanta win enough to keep these two teams in their current places? Or is the writing already on the wall?

 

Cancelled Due to a Lack of Interest…

The way things are going, I can’t tell who is less interested right now – the fans or the players. Maybe both realize that not much is going to change this season. It was nice for a minute, watching the Hawks play better defense. However, this offensive ineptitude gets tiring really quickly. Some moments, the team seems like they’re sleepwalking while one player tries to do too much (usually resulting in a turnover these days). Other moments show frustration from some players (again…usually resulting in a turnover) and perplexingly subpar play from the team’s best players. All the while, the post game quotes and comments are becoming more and more bleak. Or should we say, apathetic? Larry Drew seems to have lost or let go of the reins to this stagecoach.  Tonight’s game clearly showed that once again, he’s talking to nobody in particular when it comes to his game plan. Are his days numbered as well?

It’s not that the Hawks are the only team struggling. There have been tears in Miami and anger and outrage in Orlando.  Even fans of the reining League Champs have something to gripe about. No, the Hawks aren’t the only ones with problems. But it just might be that they are the only ones who don’t seem to care.

 

UP NEXT

With 17 games left to play, the Hawks return to Atlant for a six game homestand that may or may not help stabilize things. First on tap are the Portland Trailblazers, a team that Atlanta beat on the road a couple of weeks ago with doses of offensive effectiveness from Joe Johnson and Jamal Crawford. Between the lackluster play from the Hawks and the Blazers’ dual bid of wresting 5th place from Denver while staving off 7th place New Orleans, there is just no way to predict how this might turn out. But if the Hawks can’t find a way to motivate themselves to play better at home (at least), then they are likely to keep right on sliding….

 

….right down that slippery slope.

 

 

Big Ray, Hawks Fan Nest Blog

344 comments Add your comment

STRETCH

March 11th, 2011
11:38 pm

Who cares! FIRST!

Big Ray

March 11th, 2011
11:43 pm

Congrats, STRETCH. Now go see how many other blogs you can be first on. Run off now, little fella… ;)

O'Brien

March 11th, 2011
11:49 pm

Big Ray,

Another team loss for the hawks. With 26 points in the second half, its hard to blame one person.

If the team was in disarray before, what are they in now?

Sund indicated that what the Hawks needed most was to change from within..

I agree with Rick. While I like the trade for Hinrich, it appears there needs to be a bigger change to the culture. Players or HC, something’s gotta give.

From MC’s article;

“The Hawks are 4-10 since Feb. 8 and dropped to 10-18 in games against opponents with winning records.” MC .

That’s a 36% win percentage against teams with winning records. I wonder how they compare to other playoff teams.

harpie

March 11th, 2011
11:52 pm

This team has shown that when they move the ball and play hard, they can beat anybody. Alas, they are not bright enough to realize that moving and sharing the ball is the way to win; and their coach is a complete idiot, who doesn’t have a clue as to how to get them to play the game right. I knew this crap would happen when this cheapskate organization didn’t hire a real coach…

Native

March 11th, 2011
11:58 pm

Apathy across the metro Atlanta area. The future looked bright in 2008 then a string of bad personnel decisions and revelations turned off the fanbase permanently. And it’s sad because I believe this city would support them if there were a true superstar and passionate owner in place. But no one is taking responsibility for what’s happening. In the locker room, on the bench, or in the board room. It’s time to clean house.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 11th, 2011
11:59 pm

“It was nice for a minute, watching the Hawks play better defense. However, this offensive ineptitude gets tiring really quickly.”

I think we’d all be OK with some level of offensive ineptitude — not 26 points in an entire half, but something reasonable — if they kept playing defense like they did against Chicago last Wednesday or against Portland and Golden State on that road trip. But they didn’t D up very well against the Nuggets or Thunder (without Smoove) or in the 4th quarter vs. NYK or in this game (with Smoove). The Lakers are a horrible matchup for this team and LD made it worse by going small, so I’m leaving that one out on purpose.

STRETCH

March 12th, 2011
12:07 am

bIG rAY,

1st off, im probably bigger than you…so theres really no reason to reference me as lil fella.

2nd, just trying to see if anyone else is even interested in the blog and it appears they arent. But hey, you are.

And imma be here off and on speaking my opinion.

dayoldfries

March 12th, 2011
12:11 am

it must be obvious day at camp stupid

doc

March 12th, 2011
12:19 am

durn big ray, from frustration vs panic to apathy.

7th, facing chicago and losing in the first round in five. is that in the crystal ball?

Sand

March 12th, 2011
12:24 am

Joe johnson sucks,he’s the leader & the money man. He quit on the team last year in the playoff.Then after he quit,they go sign him to a mega deal.We have to get rid of Joe & Rick Sund !!!

Ben

March 12th, 2011
12:26 am

Been saying this for months now…http://bit.ly/hUvKZq. It all started with the Joe Johnson signing. That contract is going to handcuff this team for the next 6 years.

The two options over the summer were resign JJ and continue to make the playoffs as a mediocre team OR let him walk and struggle for a couple of years. I’d prefer the latter if it meant that we’d be in the market for some top-tier talent–like CP3, who we should have anyway (Marvin)–in the coming offseasons.

Ben

March 12th, 2011
12:27 am

Sand

March 12th, 2011
12:38 am

Joke Johnson Suck !!!

tckr83

March 12th, 2011
12:38 am

Ben-

Or the Hawks could’ve traded Joe Johnson last year before the deadline while he was an expiring contract and took us as far as this group was going to go… especially after we knew Joe Johnson wanted the keys to the bank, the treasury and the federal reserve!

Buddy Grizzard

March 12th, 2011
1:10 am

I said this on MC’s blog… look how soft NY’s schedule is… Hawks will finish 6th at best and 7th is a real possibility.

Big Ray

March 12th, 2011
1:34 am

STRETCH ,

I thought your comment was humorous, I responded in kind. Hence the smiley face at the end of my post (which I thought would surely indicate that I was poking fun with you).

Considering we’re on a blog, I have no way of really knowing how big or small you are. If you’re any bigger than 6′0″ and 315 pounds, then congratulations. You’re bigger than me.

Glad to have you and your opinion here…although I have to say that I hope it’s going to be more than “Nobody Cares! First!”

Shall I put another smiley face on to let you know I’m not being deathly serious? :lol:

Big Ray

March 12th, 2011
1:36 am

2nd, just trying to see if anyone else is even interested in the blog and it appears they arent. But hey, you are.

You have to wait a little while at this time of night/morning…I’ll let the results of the last few blogs answer the rest of that…

JSS

March 12th, 2011
1:37 am

Big Ray
March 11th, 2011
11:43 pm
“Congrats, STRETCH. Now go see how many other blogs you can be first on. Run off now, little fella…”

@ Big Ray…
Thanks, I needed that! Now I won’t have to go to sleep depressed! ;-) Too funny!

JSS

March 12th, 2011
1:40 am

Does he know that you pack “heat” for a living?

Big Ray

March 12th, 2011
1:42 am

O’brien ,

Compare to other playoff teams? I’d rather not…

dayoldfries ,

I’m not following you. Then again, if this is camp stupid, am I really supposed to be able to? ;)

JSS ,

Somebody who appreciates my humor! Thank YOU , my friend!

Big Ray

March 12th, 2011
1:44 am

JSS ,

Nah, but I’m not into making that a conversation piece all that much. When people know, they get into “oh, it’s da po-po” mode. Besides, not much point in a “who’s is bigger” contest. I do what I need to do when on the job, when it needs doing. And that has nothing to do with this blog and the great people who blog here and make it what it is. Here, I ain’t da po-po, LOL…

Big Ray

March 12th, 2011
1:48 am

Ben and tcker83 ,

I don’t think it’s so much that JJ wanted us to break the bank for him. I think it was more along the lines of his agent KNOWING that we didn’t have a choice. JJ was going to get a max contract or very dang close to it, and he was going to get it from somebody. New York wanted him, and Chicago wanted him even worse.

We had to pay what we did to keep him, and it’s really that simple. Why we had to do that is a bit less simple. If we built around JJ differently…better…we wouldn’t be in as much of a quandary. But, we didn’t, so we had to pay the price to keep what we had. Now…we’ll get more into that type of philosophy after we exit the playoffs and enter the offseason. Stay tuned…

JSS

March 12th, 2011
1:51 am

There’s some strange ones roaming these blogs these days… Between telling folks to put this body in this place or the never fails “living in your parents basement.” They’ve gone places that boggles the mind as much as a Hawks 2nd half offensive output!

Keep blogging Big Ray, between and MC, we’ve been fortunate to have you; and it keeps us off overpasses and VIP rooms drowning our Hawks sorrows!

Big Ray

March 12th, 2011
1:52 am

Buddy Grizzard ,

I’m afraid you’re right. It’s not just that NY has a fairly soft schedule. It’s also that they now also have some very serious talent. Felton and Stoudamire were leading a movement up there while being directed by Mike D’Antoni. But, they would have made the playoffs and been a first round out. But it’s different now . Now they have a veteran, playoff tested Billups at pg and two top 5/top 10 talents in ‘Melo and Stoudamire. Even moreso, they have some talented role players, including rookies Toney Douglas and Landry Fields.

These guys won’t be well represented by their record. Said another way, their record won’t do them justice. They could make it to the second round of the playoffs, depending on who their first round opponent is. I would say they are a threat to upset anybody not named the Celtics. Seriously.

Big Ray

March 12th, 2011
1:54 am

JSS ,

I hear ya man, and thanks. It’s a pleasure blogging here with everybody and I’ll keep it up as long as I am allowed to. Yeah, I’m afraid we’ll all take to the drink before it’s over. Depressing turn to the season and it’s possible the worst is yet to come. Geez…where are my rose-colored glasses? Whatever happened to ignorant bliss!

JSS

March 12th, 2011
1:55 am

Oops… “between you and MC!”

and the mysterious Astro Joe…

JSS

March 12th, 2011
2:00 am

The strange thing about the Knicks is that I keep getting that Houston Rockets feeling about them… Well, minus Billups because he like Oscar Roberson when he fell into the Bucks lap… Still, I just when Houston got hot that year after the break… They made up all of that ground, then got a 1st round match-up nightmare and were gone like that…

Big Ray

March 12th, 2011
2:01 am

Harpie ,

What’s bothersome is that the team should be able to see the results of sharing the ball and moving around on the court. But they just can’t seem to keep that in mind from game to game. Very perplexing.

Native ,

Clean house? You may just get your wish. I think if the right buyer(s) come along, both the Hawks and Thrashers are sold. The Hawks will probably stay in town. The Thrashers…I wouldn’t hold my breath. Hockey teams in the southeast don’t last long anyway. Silly idea, if you ask me (which you didn’t).

Doc ,

Apathy is all that’s left. Frustration and panic left around 15 games ago.

Najeh ,

Just say it straight, man. If the Hawks actually competed in games, then we wouldn’t have as much of a problem with the scoring drop-off. But right now, they simply aren’t competing. It’s aggravating. But you know the score – when they stop scoring, they often stop defending. Unfortunately the “Hinrich” effect didn’t last long. Of course, the fact that LD predictably (although disappointingly) went back to playing Jamal instead of Teague, didn’t help. But like I said on the last blog, if LD has a choice, he’ll go offense over defense. And while Jamal was shooting well, it wasn’t enough to overcome the defensive lapses. Problem is, Teague’s defense would not have overcome the offensive lapses, either. I think we were screwed either way because of how the “Big Three” were playing…which was pathetic.

JSS

March 12th, 2011
2:02 am

Man it is late, typos and omissions that I can’t blame on Dayquil!

Big Ray

March 12th, 2011
2:05 am

JSS ,

True. But…the Knicks have a swagger to them that Houston didn’t have, even back then. They also have more of the role positions filled in, whereas Houston was built almost solely on McGrady and Yao.

Yao could give you 20 and 10 every night, but he just wasn’t dominant . Stoudamire on the other hand will try to hammer you for 30 points every night. Carmelo all but guarantees you those kinds of numbers. Billups is Mr. Big Shot and has been to the Conference Finals and numer of times and owns a ring. Houston had none of that.

But…that doesn’t mean you aren’t right. They could get upended in the first round. But they have a much better chance of upending someone in the first round than any other team, if you ask me.

JSS

March 12th, 2011
2:09 am

@ Big Ray…
That is why I put that Billups disclaimer in there… I just have that wondering feeling about when folks get a day in-between games to digest what they do (or don’t do)?

tckr83

March 12th, 2011
2:34 am

Ray –

I agree. Joe Johnson was going to get a max contract from somebody, or close to it. That’s why Atlanta should’ve either 1) traded him last year while his contract was expiring (or work a sign-n-trade) and his value at the highest or 2) let someone else make the mistake of giving Joe Johnson max money. You’d think after being in Atlanta for 6 seasons or so, the Hawks would already know he’s not worth that kind’ve contract.

The Hawks didn’t HAVE to do anything for Joe Johnson. If Joe Johnson wanted to win… he would’ve realized what this contract would do to the franchise (a franchise that pulled him out of the desert and made him the “man”) and accept a reasonable contract. That didn’t happen, the Hawks didn’t do anything worthwhile over the offseason because of it and now the franchise is coming back down to earth with the coach going one direction and the players going in their own individual directions. Wherever that is…

Ole Hawk's Fan

March 12th, 2011
3:22 am

Bk did help to clear some outrageous contracts that the previous GM had given, which gave the Hawks some financial relief but his Draft Picks over ruled his work in getting the team payroll manageable. This group has been together too long and will never show the results to challenge for a trip to the Eastern Conference Finals. I agree Big Ray that after this team exist the playoff in the first round, changes need to be made but that contract of Iso JJ is a dagger in the heart for any new owners. He is not a Max Contract Player. I wish they would have traded him last year or let him move to another team as a Free Agent. Where are the players JJ said he was going to recruit to play for this team after he signed that Big Contract?

Big Ray

March 12th, 2011
3:45 am

tckr83 ,

That’s certainly one way of looking at it. I think the Hawks owners also looked at keeping the value of the team up. What indication was there that they were driven to improve and win at all costs? For that matter, why would Joe take less money when there hasn’t been an indication up to this point that ownership/management would go “all the way” in trying to put together a team that would contend for a championship?

Instead, the Hawks have tried to get there by keeping the same personnel they’ve had. They matched the offer Memphis made to Josh Smith, which by the way was the only time that a memeber of the current “core” was ever bid for by an outside team, that we know of. They re-signed Zaza, Bibby, and Marvin Williams, none of whom got contract offers from anybody else (at least none that were reported). Where in all of that is anything to indicate big plans for winning? If anything that would have convinced Joe (and more importantly his agent) that the team would do what it took to get him back. And so, that is exactly what happened.

The Hawks could have gone in another direction. But recent history suggested that they wouldn’t. So, it was easy for Joe and his agent. It’s kinda hard to fault Joe when he had nothing to do with the other contract decisions this team has made.

Here’s another way of looking at it: Joe didn’t HAVE to get paid a max contract. He could have joined Rose in Chicago, or Felton and Amare in New York. Think of the damage either team could do with Joe on their squad.

The Hawks all but had to make Joe a lucrative offer based on other decisions they made (or failed to make). Otherwise, they would have watched him walk away for nothing. Also, a sign and trade isn’t as easy as it looks. No team would have taken Johnson on an expiring contract while giving up useable players UNLESS they were sure he’d sign an extension. Anything less would be a waste of time. It’s the same reason why New Jersey finally broke off talks with Denver for Carmelo Anthony. Sure, they could have done the deal, but ‘Melo wouldn’t have stayed.

Besides, the Hawks have shown that they fall in love with certain players and tend to stay that way. They could have traded Joe. They were afraid to, and I don’t blame them. Lose your only all-star and leading scorer…for what? When is the last time you’ve seen the Hawks make a BIG trade? One involving one of their TOP players?

Big Ray

March 12th, 2011
3:58 am

Ole Hawks Fan ,

I don’t like JJ’s contract anymore than anyone else, but I also understand that by the time he became an unrestricted free agent, it was all over but the writing on the wall: “Pay him max, or watch him walk for nothing in return, then hope to sign a half-way decent player and try to make the playoffs with that.”

I also agree on Billy Knight’s draft gaffes, even if that is a very much dead horse. It has set us back quite a number of years.

I also think we would not be so crabby about JJ’s contract if –

1) We were winning a lot more and looking like contenders.

2) He was averaging 22ppg or more.

But….all of these things come to the glaring light when a team is losing. While it’s disappointing to watch JJ average less than 20 ppg for the money he’s making, we’re also discounting a number of other things. His performance isn’t the most rotten apple in the basket by a shot. We have far more issues than that. And winning vs losing is at the crux of it all.

Remember when the Orlando Magic made it to the Finals and played for the championship (before losing)? Nobody felt like Rashard Lewis’ 6 year/$118 million contract was a dagger to the organization’s ability to win. But…once the team started losing and getting punched out in the Eastern Conference Finals, he was suddenly very much overpaid, right? How about Gilbert Arenas and HIS huge contract? Same problem, and now the same team. Think he’s overpaid for what Orlando is accomplishing?

The Hawks have maintained that they will not go over the luxury tax for any reason short of a phenomenal player becoming available. It’s not just JJ’s contract that limits us, per se. It’s that luxury tax ultimatum and decisions with other contracts that make up the bulk of it. JJ’s contract just gets the media attention. Everybody wants to write about that . Nobody wants to write about the other decisions, the lesser contracts, the cheap way out with a coach that in reality should have been experimented with over 2 years ago, and the fact that the core of this team is one of the absolute biggest problems. Why? Because the one big contract makes good headlines. The other stuff…doesn’t.

Big Ray

March 12th, 2011
4:34 am

These quotes come from the same person:

“Rose got to the basket at will against us,” Drew said. “He attacked the paint and we couldn’t keep him in front of us. We tried a few zone possessions but he still got there.”

Did L.D. consider sending in Teague for a crack at slowing Rose’s slices to the rim?

“Thought about it but that to me that wasn’t the real issue at that point, him getting into the lane,” Drew said. “We did nothing with a physicality as far as taking any hard fouls. That was my thought process. Even when he was getting to the line, we did nothing about giving hard fouls. I don’t care who you are playing against, if you play that soft, you are going to have problems in the paint.”

So basically he’s saying that our bigs should have fouled Rose once he got past Jamal. That’s strange, because I could have sworn that Rose had 15 attempts at the free throw line, meaning that somebody besides Hinrich was fouling him. And when Hinrich was in there, Rose wasn’t killing us.

Ok, LD. Next time just tell us you left Jamal in there because you wanted offense from a team that A) Wasn’t scoring down low like you said they should be and B) is missing jumpers all over the place.

Save the “physicality” talk for the rebounding part of the conversation.

Big Ray

March 12th, 2011
4:39 am

Al had five assists. He seemed reluctant to go around or shoot over Thomas.

My lone criticism of Al…when faced with the tougher specimens of the League, Al is shrinking back in ways that he used to not do in years 1 and 2. Whatever happened to regular appearances of “The Boss?”

“It’s a little bit of an adjustment,” Hinrich said. “The Hawks play a little different than any team I’ve ever been on. We have a lot of guys who post up and most of the teams I’ve been on haven’t had much of a post-up presence. A lot of isos. We have a lot of versatility. A lot of guys who can handle the ball. I think it’s a good fit. We just have to find a way to help each other on both ends.”

Translation : “WTF is going on around here?”

Gotta give Kirk credit – he gives the PC answer from a new teammate and a guy who just wants to help. But now he’s having the tainted koolaid seeped into his drink, and he’s wondering what in the world that odd sensation is in his stomach.

He’ll know next season if Sund keeps the core together. Because then he’ll be watching John Wall and his old team do to us what Chicago and Philly are doing now.

lil fella

March 12th, 2011
4:42 am

Big Ray, I’m enjoyin’ readin’ your posts. However, you say that there’s a problem with the core of the team, without tellin’ us what you think the problem is. What is it?

vava74

March 12th, 2011
5:08 am

Couldn’t watch the game yet due to an IP block on my league pass.

I actually woke up at half time and followed the first minutes of the second half on the game cast.

It was pretty obvious that our remarkable game plan would remain unaltered. After Hinrich’s jumper to start the second half, if I am not wrong, our 6 or 7 possessions that followed were jumpshot – missed, jumpshot – missed, …

That coped with our “bigs” playing small like hell on the boards lead LD to make his move: enter Jamal.

I switched off my iPhone and went back to sleep immediately.

E43

March 12th, 2011
5:35 am

This was a match up of 2 top ranking rebounding teams. Chicago in the top 5 and Atlanta as well but from the bottom. They got out rebounded 28-50 4real? I hope I read wrong.

I still think that starting Zaza would help this team in terms of the future. I know for a fact that this team is horrible in rebounding. The its Mike Bibby’s fault theory has just been debunked. Yes it took takes zaza about 17 minutes to get 4 rebounds but it also takes 30 minutes for Marvin to get 5. I dont see shy marvin cant produce what hes producing right now from the bench. Im not saying that zazas minutes should go up but I just feel like there is a way to manage the situation better that doesn’t involve using Zaza too much and keeping Al away from the center positions. Treat the situation as though there is an injury on the team.

Big Ray- I agree with your last post on the other blog about people having go-tos to pick on after a loss. I guess my go to is the small lineup even though i still hated the lineup after a W.

O'Brien

March 12th, 2011
6:21 am

Big Ray,

To LD’s point, even though rose got fouled, he wasn’t fouled hard. I have always said this team is soft defensively because they give up too many dunks and soft fouls (IMO). We need a Oakley or somebody like that to show them how to be physical.

That being said, if rose IS getting into the paint AND not being fouled hard, don’t u have to make an adjustment? Give Teague 3 minutes and tell him his only job is to stay with rose. If teague fails,then take him back out the game. But LD has been lacking when it comes to adjustments (IMO).

Also Fields is a rookie, but toney Douglas is a second year player (who was drafted 10 spots after teague). As AJ points out, Douglas should have been the pick instead of teague. He was a senior, and was acc DPOY, and 2 time member of the all acc defense team. And he has a little dog in him (not sure about teague).

O'Brien

March 12th, 2011
6:27 am

As for the jj contract discussion, i wonder if when he is alone inhis room, does he wonder what might have been iif he went to chicago to play with an all star PG, and to play for a HC who coached for doc rivers, won a ring, and is known for defense….

Earl T.

March 12th, 2011
8:46 am

I have a feeling that j.j. contract will strap us for years like allen houstons did n.y., a.k.a we will be a 40-45 win team next 5 years with no lottery insight to get better. also why can’t we get be name free agents to consider us, all athletes love the city but are reluctant to play here. dwight please come home and save “your” city from disaster, thats what the “real” superman would do!!! lol

doc

March 12th, 2011
8:47 am

“It’s a little bit of an adjustment,” Hinrich said. “The Hawks play a little different than any team I’ve ever been on. We have a lot of guys who post up and most of the teams I’ve been on haven’t had much of a post-up presence. A lot of isos. We have a lot of versatility. A lot of guys who can handle the ball. I think it’s a good fit. We just have to find a way to help each other on both ends.”

Translation : “WTF is going on around here?”

very good big ray!

vava, yeah the game was over before you had a chance to go after your fav whipping post. yes, best go back to sleep as there would be little to talk up. ;-)

frustration to panic to disarray and now beaten down? seems there is very little left except the tears.

Astro Joe

March 12th, 2011
8:56 am

So it feels like we’re watchin a case study on the role of leadership vs. strategist in the head coach position. LD appears to be a very competent strategist but seemingly is a disaster as a true leader. Considering that we heard as much about accountability as we did about the 5-man attack, these 60+ games have been very disappointing.

doc

March 12th, 2011
9:18 am

ok AJ, we are at that point in the season whether we want to acknowledge it or not. what do you think of the braves from what you hear out of spring training? heh heh

Pete Donn

March 12th, 2011
9:36 am

Joe Johnson says we are jump shooters. We paid all that money for a jump shooter?

NCBravesFan

March 12th, 2011
9:36 am

What confuses me about the whole mess is that the Hawks aren’t doing what LD apparently wants them to do, but they instead are doing something else that clearly isn’t working. WTF?! Time to make some big changes – but can we please start in the owner’s suite and work our way down??

O'Brien

March 12th, 2011
9:50 am

AJ,

I think LD is a competent strategist in game planning. But 1) he is unable to get the players to stick to the game plan and 2) shows little accountability when players don’t stick to the plan.

I know this is drastic. But if LD really wants to make a simple change to see if it works….strip Joe, Josh and al of their captaincy. And give the position to one person. Hinrich. Let him be the coach on the floor, and the voice in the huddle.

Maybe the players get mad and play with a chip on their shoulder. If they rebel, then that gives rick an idea of who needs to go.

STRETCH

March 12th, 2011
9:54 am

JSS,

Can you get off Ray’s sack??? Its the internet man.

Im 6-3, 245 but dude…seriously? 6-0′, 310…guess thats the tale of the tape… Ok Ray, you are bigger than me..East to West that is…LOL!

doc

March 12th, 2011
9:58 am

joey

March 12th, 2011
11:10 am

the hawks if they pay with heart and work their butt off for the whole game they can beat any team but thats their problem they have no heart, the only time i saw them have heart was when the beat the bulls in atlanta 2 weeks ago al horford, they need to pound the ball in the paint and then kick it out to open jump shooters>>

niremetal

March 12th, 2011
11:36 am

Cosign doc’s 9:58.

dap01

March 12th, 2011
11:46 am

LD is a joke, his usefullness is over in ATL. The team is one terrible mess. The collection players make it seem as if no plan existed when putting them together. Billy Knight was in left field. Sund don’t yet have the internet. Woody was a fake, LD is not a leader. JJ is a jump shooter, JC is a street baller, we have 2 power forwards and nothing else.

The Hawks are the worst at developing players. Yet they keep blaming the players.

I was a fan of the Hawks through that LONG and PAINFUL rebuilding process and this is what we have. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO,.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

bjrufino

March 12th, 2011
12:34 pm

I want to tell Joe Johnson that it’s time to become the Joe Johnson of 06-07, 07-08 and 08-09 season. Come on Joe we need you to step and give us a win. Please Joe please!!! I’ll support and pray for our Atlanta Hawks team.

Steven A.

March 12th, 2011
12:39 pm

THANKFUL TO THE LORD THAT I DID NOT INVEST MY MONEY IN NBA LEAGUE PASS.

” ONLY IN AMERICA”
Can someone be as absolutely INEPT as RICK SUND and LARRY DREW and continue working and earning wages in this economic enviroment.

doc

March 12th, 2011
12:43 pm

yeah nire i am very articulate and profound there arent i? ;-)

going back to the last blog, in a round about way i was agreeing with you after being left with my mouth open on initial read. i also agree as well with ray who maybe said it better in terms of what he hasnt done in relation to the expectations that go with his contract, suffering through one of his worst years in the league. just the same, i point out, it is not like he has fallen off the edge of the earth, just maybe it appears so with contract in hand:

“you are right though, he shows absolutely no emotion whether he makes or misses, whether you call it disinterest or not. he is 29% from three this year and pumping away. really the problem is, maybe he is just not that good because he is only avg two points less a game this year as in years past. maybe it is a function of the contract gets in the way of us all seeing him for what he is, a good player incapable of really putting the team on his back for long stretches. gosh, i hope he finds his touch soon.”

though by the numbers he isnt far off, what he has done overall seems off as ray pointed out with some interesting numbers. he isnt as big this year in the clutch as he seemed in the past. the problem is, is it “disinterest” as you and ray disguise it as there might be something deeper crawling in him or is he just quitting on the team as he might have last season during the playoffs and maybe for the same reasons. is it disinterest or lack of desire which might be a better word instead of quit.

whatever it is, his game has to improve for this team to be competitive along with jamal increasing his production. the month of january they were both bringing it, now neither are. we were living by the sword. unfortunately, the whole team is out of synch but the guys with the ball in their hands most of the time have to find a way to pull it together to rise up to their previous standards is my point about the two. that is why i focus on those two guys as the bellweather twosome of the hawks. as they go the hawks go, simple equation.

my line on josh and al is they have not fallen too far back from last year performance though the way folks want them to execute it leaves folks concerned, ok pizzed. i dont think either guy can have the impact except for occasionally on the outcome of the game. neither one is an amare for long periods of time, steady yes but huge rarely. balance to the team would have possibly corrected this,as they are both undersized in their roles for the long haul but that is a long worn out term and theme on the blog.

Astro Joe

March 12th, 2011
12:51 pm

doc, I’m worried about the back-end of our bullpen, Chipper and McLouth. I could see us competing for a wildcard spot but ultimately falling short. Of course, that assumes that we stand pat… the Braves have crazy pitching talent in the minor leagues and I could see them making a big trade in July/August to get that elite slugger they need. So put me down for somewhere betweem 82-86 wins. how about you?

Oh, and Fredi will be better than LD.

O'Brien

March 12th, 2011
1:16 pm

Given the way Kurt Thomas handled himself against Horford in the Bucks-Hawks playoff series, would it have made more sense to sign Kurt Thomas instead of Etan?

If LD really wants to change things up, one option is to start Jeff Teague. That way, the starters can compensate for Teague’s (lack of) offense, and Hinrich can play with Jamal and help offset Jamal’s defense.

After the trade, when he started Teague and brought Hinrich off the bench, the Hawks played well the first few games. Maybe its worth ging back to that lineup to try and provide a spark.

doc

March 12th, 2011
1:18 pm

aj, agree with your concerns. i tend to think maybe about 88 to 90 wins this year unless the kids at the back end of the bullpen fall apart. if everything comes together they might go north of there. phils will be tough but they have a few missing pieces they didnt have last year. uggla a huge addition will help as he is a gamer.

as far as fredi, he is a proven commodity, LD uh, not so much.

niremetal

March 12th, 2011
1:18 pm

Doc,

Sorry. I don’t see how you can possibly conclude that Josh and Al don’t impact the outcome of games “except for occasionally.” If anything, I think whether Josh is focused and (to a lesser extent) Al is aggressive has more of an impact on the outcome of Hawks games than anything else.

O'Brien

March 12th, 2011
1:22 pm

From MC’s writeup;

“In the second half it was like we forgot everything we did in the first half,” Hinrich said.

“I don’t think we did what we did in the first half to stick around which is move the basketball and get good looks,” J.J. said. “We started playing a lot of one-on-one and our shot selection wasn’t the greatest.”

“We definitely didn’t have the movement we had in the first half,” Jamal said..

Aren’t we all tired of hearing the same excuses?

kwooden

March 12th, 2011
1:22 pm

Usually I’m pretty positive about the team and I’m looking at the good instead of the bad. But last night was a disgraceful performance! I missed some of the other games, so maybe everyone else had this feeling several games ago. The players and coaches really need to take a long look at themselves and what they are bring to the table. The 3rd and 4th were just terrible when it came to ball movement and real effort. Josh was making terrible plays and LD needed to sit him down! Joe and Jamal weren’t even trying to get open, they were taking turns dribbling up the court and taking contested jumpshots. We all know they are a jumpshooting team, and so do they, so why isn’t anyone working harder to get an open shot?? No one moves on this team! I blame that on the players, but also LD needs to start taking people out if they aren’t going to run the offensive. Guys need to use screens a lot better and run a lot harder to the ball. The only guy I respect on this team right now is Damien! He’s the only one working hard on both ends of the court.

doc

March 12th, 2011
1:51 pm

nire historically they havent bern the go to guys is my point made there. jamal and jj are during crunch time.

doc

March 12th, 2011
2:09 pm

neither one gets the ball down the stretch nor do they blow up for more than twenty at a time in a game like jamal and jj are there to do. al wont do 30 and 15 but occadoonally but as ray pointed put jj frequently went there last year. crawford can as well, josh not so much. it is rare they can carry the yram. sure if they falter in their efforts then we get raked but that is more at the other end. they have important roles but scorong isnt it. plays are rarely called for them.

doc

March 12th, 2011
2:33 pm

finally nire, josh can be focused as hell and al aggressive as hell but if jamal and jj continue to misfire and not carry the load of the scoring, which last year was about 40 per game then we dont win especially in a close game where plays go through either jj or jamal. that is what i am referring to as outcome of a game. that is what they get paid to do and their roles. i dont want plays for josh set up as he hasnt shown he can do it and only recently has it been for al; one cost his services for a few games, the other got us a win against the bulls.

niremetal

March 12th, 2011
2:47 pm

Yeah, you’re right doc. It’s up to JJ and Jamal. Whatever.

niremetal

March 12th, 2011
2:49 pm

sure if they falter in their efforts then we get raked but that is more at the other end. they have important roles but scorong isnt it.

Since when did “outcome of the game” mean just “scoring?”

No, really. I’m bored both by the team and by you at this point. Both are far too predictable.

Sautee

March 12th, 2011
4:18 pm

nire,

“No, really. I’m bored both by the team and by you at this point. Both are far too predictable.”

LOL, like THAT response wasn’t??????

niremetal

March 12th, 2011
4:20 pm

Sautee,

It’s hard to respond unpredictably to predictability ;)

Sautee

March 12th, 2011
5:48 pm

nire,

Can we ride bikes now?

godsmack

March 12th, 2011
6:10 pm

I WISH THE THRASHERS WOULD STAY AND THE SHETTY HAWKS WOULD LEAVE.YOU WOULD SEE FAN SUPPORT FOR THE THRASHERS IF THE AZZ HOLES THAT OWNED THEM WOULD PUT THE MONEY INTO THE TEAM LIKE THEY HAVE THE HAWKS…I KNOW THIS IS A BASKETBALL BLOG BUT HOCKEY IS MUCH BETTER TO WATCH THEN A BUNCH OF OVERPAID NOTHINGS DRIBBLING A BASKETBALL…

O'Brien

March 12th, 2011
6:42 pm

I’m glad LD is changing it up, but wow. I did not see this type of coming. From twitter:

His starters are Teague, Hinrich, JJ, Josh and Al. said LD: We’ve lost 4 in a row. Got to shake things up.

Interesting…

O'Brien

March 12th, 2011
6:44 pm

Actually, Al is out tonight (injured from the Bulls game). So its Teague, Hinrich, JJ, Josh…but I’m not sure who the starting Center is. I’m guessing ZaZa.

O'Brien

March 12th, 2011
6:45 pm

And Pape Sy will dress.

I hope the hawls blow out the Blazers so we can see some Pape Sy up close.

RED ZONE 1

March 12th, 2011
6:51 pm

I can’t say it enough, K.Hinrich for Louis Williams, J Smooth for Javale Mcgee and 1st rd pick, use that pick to obtain Chandler Wilson from the Nuggets. Let Teague and Lou battle it out for the the starting pg position.

O'Brien

March 12th, 2011
7:16 pm

Teague with a layup, and a steal. And a good pass into the paint to Josh which leads to FTs

O'Brien

March 12th, 2011
7:24 pm

Once Teague starts making his jumpers, watch out.

Why didnt Josh give the ball to Hinrich right next to him? And Kirk was asking for it too! Come on Josh. That play led to a foul on Kirk on the other end, so now Kirk has 2 fouls and has to sit.

2 turnovers already for Josh. And then a tip-in, and then a block. Good. And now another turnover. 3 turnovers already for Josh.

I wish Josh would just focus on defense and rebounding, and let the offense come to him.

niremetal

March 12th, 2011
7:39 pm

Jeff Teague just had the best 10 seconds in Hawks history. No really. 3 steals and 6 points in 9 seconds. Wow.

niremetal

March 12th, 2011
7:45 pm

He’s sucking wind now, but he’s earned it.

O'Brien

March 12th, 2011
7:52 pm

nire,

I know that this is an abnormality for Teague. But this is why I said teague should start. He looks so much better when he plays with the starters

O'Brien

March 12th, 2011
7:59 pm

In case anybody is wondering where Josh Powell is…Twitter update; From Hawks PR guy.

“We were made aware of a traffic incident that occurred en route to [Powell] coming to the game, reportedly near the arena. That’s as much as we know about the situation at this time. We do understand charges have been filed but beyond that we have no further comment.”.

niremetal

March 12th, 2011
8:05 pm

That doesn’t sound good…

O'Brien

March 12th, 2011
8:21 pm

It does not sound good at all.

As for the game…Where has the hawks offense gone? These have been their points the last 4 quarters;

10, 16, 19, 16. Wow. 4 straight quarters under 20 points.

Joe has 4 pts, 1 rebound and 1 assist in the first half. We need him (or Jamal) to get going.

O'Brien

March 12th, 2011
8:23 pm

Wow. 3 on 2 fast break, and Hinrich pulls up for a jumper.

richbrave

March 12th, 2011
8:35 pm

Watching the HAWKS for the first time in quite awhile, I have to say it didn’t impress me as an up and coming team. They seemed stale in the frontcourt. HINRICH seems to be contributing fairly well for ATLANTA.

And speaking of the ‘trade,’ JORDAN CRAWFORD continues to get court time and impress. If he doesn’t get hurt, I think the WIZARDS will have found something valuable in the young man. The other night he scored 22 and tonight against the CLIPPERS he has 12 off the bench at the half. Some amazing acrobatic moves around the basket. His dribble drive penetration is great due to his herky-jerky flow. He slows up, then when he sees an opening, he puts on a burst, and blows right by his man. His offense is way ahead of his defense, but that’s to be expected. It will come along in time.

And one game into my grandson’s sophomore season, he had three doubles in his first game with two fly-outs, one of which went for a two-base error, one run scored, zero left on base, and one caught stealing. No RBI’s, strangely enough. After the first, a fly out, he ended up leading off all but one time and that went for a two-base error.

Melvin

March 12th, 2011
8:49 pm

Just getting home. Teague goes from DNP-CD to starter!!!! What is the maddness to LD methods????

Melvin

March 12th, 2011
8:51 pm

KPT… Keeping playing Teague, LD….

Melvin

March 12th, 2011
8:52 pm

KPT… Keep playing Teague, LD….

O'Brien

March 12th, 2011
8:53 pm

Melvin,

You have missed one heck of a game from Teague. LD has no excuse not to start him the next game. His numbers across the board are ridiculuos.

O'Brien

March 12th, 2011
8:54 pm

I’m loving the defense and fastbreak this quarter. Good to see JJ and Jamal get going.

Josh has had a good quarter too. However…he could have easily had 7 turnovers for the game. In addition to his 5 turnovers, he almost had 2 offensive fouls called on him.

And most of his turnovers is because he wont give the ball up on the break. Give the ball up on the break Josh!

richbrave,

That’s a good start for your grandson. Hope he keeps it going.

As for Jordan Crawford…I thought Rick should trade Jamal this past offseason (after resigning JJ, and drafting Jordan), because Mo Evans and Jordan Crawford could handle backup SG. And Jordan could easily turn into a poor man’s Jamal (for a lot less).

But typical Rick is not a proactive guy. So he waited until they forced his hand into making a move…and had to get rid of Jordan. Assuming we lose Jamal (we cant afford to resign him) we will be in the market for a backup SG this offseason.

I’m happy for Jordan though, because he was never going to get PT this season.

Melvin

March 12th, 2011
9:03 pm

Astro,

I’m curious to hear your analysis of Teague play tonight. The young kid finally played extended meaningful mins tonight and he produce….

Melvin

March 12th, 2011
9:05 pm

OB,

I will watch the re-boradcast tonight.

O'Brien

March 12th, 2011
9:09 pm

Melvin,

After the trade, Teague played decent enough with the starters. But for some reason, when he comes off the bench, he does not play the same way. he is not as aggressive.

So I will continue to say that LD should start Teague, and if he starts out slow, then he can bring Hinrich in right away. but if Teague plays well enough, then Hinrich can come off the bench with jamal to stabilize the bench.

Meanwhile, Josh is 4 assists and 5 turnovers away from a quadruple double :smile:

Melvin

March 12th, 2011
9:10 pm

KPT, LD…..

Melvin

March 12th, 2011
9:25 pm

I almost forgot how a win feels…

Melvin

March 12th, 2011
9:33 pm

OB,

I’m sure Hinrich is going to be thrill having to go to the bench for another young PG (Rose, Hall and Teague)…

Melvin

March 12th, 2011
9:40 pm

Teague played 44mins and the Hawks didnt lose….

Big Ray

March 12th, 2011
9:48 pm

lil fella ,

I can’t reveal everything in one post, now can I? Trust me, I’ll be unveiling my “two cents worth” when the season is over. Not that it matters all that much what I think. I’m just a fan. But I am interested in everybody else’s opinion.

O’brien ,

In regard to LD’s comments on hard fouls, I hear you. Of course, he could play Zaza if he wants hard fouls. Dude knows how to deliver them.

Big Ray

March 12th, 2011
9:51 pm

Steven A. ,

Steven A.

March 12th, 2011
12:39 pm
THANKFUL TO THE LORD THAT I DID NOT INVEST MY MONEY IN NBA LEAGUE PASS.

” ONLY IN AMERICA”
Can someone be as absolutely INEPT as RICK SUND and LARRY DREW and continue working and earning wages in this economic enviroment.

Yep, see it every day. It gets worse. You can even stop working altogether and serve NO function in society…and still collect a paycheck.

Big Ray

March 12th, 2011
9:53 pm

STRETCH ,

Well in light of that new knowledge, I could just change my name to Compact Ray. In the meantime, what do you think of the Blazers game?

niremetal

March 12th, 2011
10:01 pm

Teague played like a man on a mission tonight. And it started with him being aggressive right out of the gate. If he keeps it up, he should keep his starting job. JT earned the right to stay on the floor tonight, and it’s one of the few times he’s done that so far in his career. We need him to keep that up.

The rest of the team was uneven. Josh was all over the place (in both good and bad ways). Zaza was pretty good despite the fact that refs were calling touch fouls on him. Jamal was on. Joe continued his Marvin impression. Marvin stepped up on the boards and played his usual very good defense.

And Josh Powell is in jail.

niremetal

March 12th, 2011
10:01 pm

Ok, maybe he’s not in jail, but still:

http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-hawks/hawks-player-arrested-outside-870433.html

Blocking an ambulance? Really, Josh? Wtf is wrong with you?

Big Ray

March 12th, 2011
10:04 pm

You know, I had gotten to the point of where I just didn’t want to record games I knew I was going to miss. The one time I don’t do it, THIS happens.

That said, I was glad to see the following –

1) Larry Drew actually follow through on the oft-hinted at “lineup changes.” Of course, one of those changes was forced (Horford being out).

2) Jeff Teague doing his thing from start to finish of a game. It did the young fella good, and it would have still done him some good if the results hadn’t been as successful as they were. Of course, we do have to temper our enthusiasm. We can’t expect him to do this every game, and he’s still in his learning curve. But tonight’s results were decidedly positive and along the type that make you feel like maybe he’s not an Acie Law part II….not that any of us were thinking that to begin with, right? ;)

This stat line deserves another look – 44 minutes played, 24 points/5steals/3assists/just 1 turnover/4rebounds/3 blocked shots???

3) 13 turnovers. Although, it was bothersome to see that Josh and Joe combined for 9 of them. At least everybody else was taking care of the ball.

4) Marvin off the bench. We don’t have anybody (other than when we play Joe at the 3) who shows they clearly should start over Marvin right now, but Marvin just seems to be more effective off the bench. I don’t know if he’s more motivated that way or what. It’s doesn’t seem to bother me when he comes off the bench and gets 4 points and a handful of rebounds. When he’s in the starting lineup, it bugs the crap out of me. How about you?

5) Josh being effective on the boards.

6) Jamal having a good game on the offensive end.

7) Damien Wilkins just keeps proving his worth.

Big Ray

March 12th, 2011
10:05 pm

#8 – Zaza was solid. Foul trouble plagues him sometimes, but he also gets a rough job done on him by the refs at times. I like his zest when he gets good minutes.

Big Ray

March 12th, 2011
10:09 pm

Niremetal ,

My experience leads me to have ZERO sympathy for Powell in connection with this incident, assuming it is accurate. Inexcusable behavior. Not simply because he failed to follow the directions of an officer, but because of the complete disregard for the victim in the emergency vehicle (or the one they may have been going to get) , as well as the personnel who were trying to perform that often thankless job.

doc

March 12th, 2011
10:10 pm

hopefully a coming out partyof sorts. good game to see at the phil.

well done hawks!

niremetal

March 12th, 2011
10:17 pm

Ray,

No argument from me. At all.

O'Brien

March 12th, 2011
10:18 pm

As much as I think LD deserves some heat for the way he handled Teague, Teague deserves some heat as well. Why hasnt he played this well before? I hope he can keep it going, because when he starts, and we bring Hinrich off the bench, that eliminates having to play Jamal at backup PG.

Big Ray,

Marvin played good defense, and rebounded well, while Damien gave us the points. I think those 2 make a good SF combination (although LD gave marvin some minutes at backup PF tonight).

I agree with you. I think Marvin plays better off the bench. And ZaZa gave a good effort too.

Maybe LD should go with Teague, JJ, Josh, Al and ZaZa more often. However, I wish LD would tell Josh to give up the ball on the break. We dont need him trying to play PG all the time.

doc

March 12th, 2011
10:43 pm

i could actually get used to a starting five of teague, hinrich, jj, josh and al. i’d much prefer jj at three than josh. make marvin a back up at three and four to get his minutes, d. wilkins at two along with moving jj there from time to time depending on match ups.

not sure of the match ups but it seems roy is playing more three than two. his mobility is very limited to what i remember of him. he could go through traffic like it wasnt there, no more.

zaza and teague were really strong along with wilkins. he is such a pro out there doing the little things that turn out big.

josh’s knee seems much better tonight and he seemed to be more to his usual movement. that bodes well for the future as he looked pitiful trying to skywalk on one leg.

many smiles on the wrap up of nire @10:01.

Melvin

March 12th, 2011
11:59 pm

It’s nice to see one of our bench guys/non rotational player score a career high. Nice game Teague… Keep playing Teague (KTP), LD….

Najeh Davenpoop

March 13th, 2011
12:49 am

Why the long faces about Powell’s arrest? Sure, it is a total douchebag move on his part, but maybe this means the DASG releases him. As far as I’m concerned, if this will mean he doesn’t play any more for this team, that would be fantastic.

doc

March 13th, 2011
8:35 am

no long faces only those with an incredulous look on it najeh.

long faces are seeing him on the court.

the disgusted look was when we got him in the first place and tried to pass him off as someone who could really help the team.

another rick sund misfire that blows up in his face. etan and josh powell, serious jokes to be getting paychecks in the league; oh yeah both supplemented by the nba. isnt it sort of a welfare plan for the askg.

doc

March 13th, 2011
9:30 am

man, bulls within decimals of being in the lead. whether the hawks make a run or not the playoffs could be really good this year. bulls, celts, heat and magic on one side with the oakies, lakers, spurs and mavs fighting off the pretenders before getting serious. what about the bulls and lakers in the finals? man that month of craziness on tnt leading up to it could be classic. the nba has surpassed march madness which i used to love back in the day when there was continuity before the kids made a play to move up to the nba. just cant get excited about college ball anymore.

Steven A.

March 13th, 2011
10:01 am

Big Ray

4) Marvin off the bench. We don’t have anybody (other than when we play Joe at the 3) who shows they clearly should start over Marvin right now, but Marvin just seems to be more effective off the bench. I don’t know if he’s more motivated that way or what. It’s doesn’t seem to bother me when he comes off the bench and gets 4 points and a handful of rebounds. When he’s in the starting lineup, it bugs the crap out of me. How about you?

I could not agree more. Marvin seems lost when he starts. He wants to be a scorer. I would put him in the post on the second unit. Very few jump shots. He is an excellent freethrow shooter.

vava74

March 13th, 2011
10:45 am

Just finished watching the game. A few notes:

1. The Portland guys were wasted, so that made things A LOT easier.

2. This was Teague first real opportunity (I’ll explain) and he made the best out of it doing exactly what I always though he was able to do.

He had some trouble playing the half court offense and still bricked a couple of teardrops but Rome was not built on one day.

I said “first opportunity” above since this was the first time he started AS A VOLUNTARY OPTION BY LD and not by default – injuries and trades.

This makes a heck of a difference in relation to getting the go ahead with a bottom line of “tomorrow X will be back and will start” or “tomorrow Z will arrive from the trade and will start”.

3. Zaza also played with a lot of energy and fought for every ball. Some of us have been saying that probably the best way of extracting value out of Zaza is to start him since he is very “minutes/incentive sensitive”. I think this was a good example that this could be indeed true.

4. Josh would have had an excellent game if he had not thrown away so many stupid passes.

5. Last, but not the least, we were saved by the “two foul rule” this time: when Jamal picked his second and went to the bench, we got back to the game to end the 1st quarter in style and played a “hard-fought-hair-in-the-chest” type of basketball throughout the 2nd quarter instead of the powder puff stuff we have been putting.

On the second half that type of bball rubbed in on Jamal – coped with the fact that he did not play PG and POR were tired – allowing him to play well on both ends.

So, due to a lucky event, LD used Jamal as he should always be used: put him in, if he struggles to start going, pull him out without too much ceremony, then try again later and if he struggles again, keep him on the bench, if not and he is balling, try to maximize his minutes and his production (AND NEVER AT THE PG SLOT).

Throwdown40

March 13th, 2011
10:55 am

Atlanta does need a change,,,starting with Rick Sund. Then get a new Head Coach. Trade Josh Smith which is a good player but has no disipline, and the worthless Marvin Williams to Orlando. Sign Dwight Howard and shave the bench that they do not use for real role players.

niremetal

March 13th, 2011
11:39 am

Gee, why didn’t I think of that.

Steven A.

March 13th, 2011
11:57 am

Where is Dr. Phil when you need him?

Right now Larry Drew seems to be a double-minded man. Very unstable in his basketball decisions.
Players are human beings, and human beings need continuity. “You cannot make sense out of
nonsense.’

Dude needs Dr. Phil.

Sautee

March 13th, 2011
12:51 pm

NOTE: Please excuse my non-Hawks post:

This is for all you “older” folks who can appreciate it:

Today (actually tonight) is the 40th anniversary of The Allman Bothers Fillmore East concerts. Most of the material for the generally acknowledged “best live album ever” was recorded on March 13, 1971.

I was fortunate enough to see the original band (with Duane and Berry Oakley) dozens of times including many at Piedmont Park in the Spring and Summer of 1969. We had no idea that they would get so popular, we just knew that was some of the best blues-rock we’d ever heard.

So today, I’ll listen to the Fillmore East concert in memory of a fine time, and some of the best live music anyone has ever made.

Anybody else go to Piedmont Park for those free concerts?

Sautee

March 13th, 2011
12:52 pm

I think I like Allman Bothers better than Allman Brothers, don’t you?

O'Brien

March 13th, 2011
1:52 pm

Not only was Josh Powell signed to contribute on the court, but the comment was made that they like his leadership (or his presence in the locker room, something like that).

Well, so far, he has been suspended (1 game) for conduct detrimental to the team, and now he has been arrested. Combine that with his poor play on the court, and it makes it a double disaster signing by Rick. The only thing that would have been worse is if Rick had signed him for 2 years.

Damien has been a good signing, but Rick’s hand was forced, because Marvin and Mo had missed time, and JJ was also hurt. Hinrich was a good trade (imo), but once again, Rick’s hand was forced by Bibby’s rapid decline, and the team’s lackluster play.

As for Etan, maybe Rick is a fan of his poetry. Overall, I wish Rick would be more proactive, and less reactive.

Sautee

March 13th, 2011
2:11 pm

O’B,

“Overall, I wish Rick would be more proactive, and less reactive.”

That’s been a theme of mine about mgmt. since 07-08.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 13th, 2011
2:49 pm

In the few minutes Etan has played he actually hasn’t looked that bad. Small sample size makes his stats mostly irrelevant, but it’s still worth noting that his advanced stats put him near the top of the list for the Hawks this season. At the very least, he’s a tough guy who can crash the boards and commit some hard fouls on nights when Zaza is ineffective, and even on Zaza’s best day Etan’s hands are no worse than Zaza. I’m not advocating for his role to be expanded, but he should be active ahead of and getting more minutes than Powell, who belongs in the D-League.

O'Brien

March 13th, 2011
3:29 pm

Not only is it a small sample size for Etan, but the games in which he has played is probably better suited for him. So his numbers are likely to look ok.

But there is no reason for Powell to get consistent minutes (imo). As doc points out, I think LD is better off playing Marvin as the backup PF.

wordsmithtom

March 13th, 2011
4:42 pm

Sautee, those free Piedmont Park concerts were “Far Out”. Remember Mother’s Finest, Wet Willie, the Hampton Grease Band and countless others. The Allmonds were the best, but there were so many willing to jam. FWIW, Greg’s new album may be his best solo effort….a combination of hillbilly roots music and down home blues. Greg actually singing gospel based songs with conviction. Cool stuff.

O’Brien, Big 10/4 on Marvin playing backup at 3/4 with Powell riding the pines. Better player by a country mile. No question.

Etan has shown effort in his few appearances. I’m ok with what he’s offered, considering the dearth of opportunity coach his given him.

Finally a start for Teague where he doesn’t get an early pull. We NEED more of this.

doc

March 13th, 2011
7:03 pm

o’b co-sign comments earlier. etan was strong during the month of black history on the board every night with an intro. besides that and his criticism of fans for wearing lakers jerseys he pretty much has been a no show. did see his recent game where he showed a bit of motor but i was not impressed as it seemed forced and a bit out of control.

o’b, also glad we are in agreement on the best way to utilize marvin as a 20-25 minute a night guy max at 3 and 4. get me 6 pt and 6 rebounds and it will mean more than the no shows. if he plays against second stringers it will help his effectiveness. ;-)

see i got a bit of old company talking the good times when 10th street area was a dive and center for hallucinogens in the big a. word, sautee, jss, myk, the list goes on for the mature hawk set. heh heh

Sautee

March 13th, 2011
8:06 pm

doc,

Far out, man. ;-)

wordsmithtom,

Yeah I was in on all of those and more. My band back then was called Flint and we were a horn band who could rock and roll as well. We shared an agent for a while with Mother’s Finest and the Grease Band, and Harold Kelling (r.i.p. buddy) from the Grease Band gave me my first guitar lesson. We opened for the ABB at the Free Stage the Thursday night before the Atlanta Pop Festival.

I guess we’re really old farts now, 40 some years later.

Big Ray

March 13th, 2011
8:09 pm

Sautee and Doc ,

Y’all are scaring me. I can hear this song in the back of my head “Momma told me not to go…..”

:lol:

Najeh ,

Agreed on Josh Powell. Also, you made some sharp points on MC’s blog in regard to Teague and LD.

LD is being just a bit disingenuous when it comes to Teague and his playing time. I agree that Teague has not always been as aggressive as he needs to be, which has affected his play. But to sit there and say “I knew it all along…” Ehhhh….DNPs don’t prove that theory at all.

Big Ray

March 13th, 2011
8:31 pm

As far as I’m concerned, Etan and Hilton make Powell a non-need.

We don’t need the points he sometimes provides nearly as much as we need the physical play that Etan and Hilton can probably give.

Astro Joe

March 13th, 2011
8:43 pm

Melvin, I completely missed the game. I read about Teague’s play around 11:30 last night on my cellphone. So I have no ability to comment, but I look forward to seeing him the next time around.

Did he play PG is my first question? I heard that Hinrich started but didn’t play much. As you recall, I initially compared Teague to Lou WIlliams, a true SG forced to try and play PG because of is lack of size.

I’m just glad that the Hawks won… at this point I don’t care if they brought back Antoine Walker and Cedric Bozeman. But it does feel a little bot like “desperate times require desperate measures”. Again, I’m just glad it worked.

BravesFan79

March 14th, 2011
1:30 am

Ray: you do a good job on here man of talking back to pple and giving your honest opinion. Im gonna have 2 check out this blog more often.
I was hoping the Hawks would land Nash, its a shame his last years are going 2 waste in Pheonix. The suns should of kept Amare, and added a few more pieces to give Nash another chance at a title. The Suns really screwed up, and i cant see them getting to the finals in the next 10 years at least, once Nash is gone.

BravesFan79

March 14th, 2011
1:33 am

The team that really screwed up at the trade deadline was the Mavs. They should of done all they could to land Nash! J Kidd is overrated and cannot shoot (even tho hes improved since his Nets days) well enough to lead them to a Title. Those Spurs vs Nets games were so predictable…. cover everyone but Kidd.. and allow him to clank away from 3 pt land, Josh Smith style.

BravesFan79

March 14th, 2011
1:38 am

Josh Powell is obviously a self centered retard. Such a shame that punks like that make all that money, while teachers and other useful members of society make pennies in comparison.
We could replace him with any big body out of the NBA and it wouldnt matter.

BravesFan79

March 14th, 2011
1:41 am

Does anyone else think the Hawks slipping to 6th or 7th wouldnt really be a bad thing?
A series against Miami or Chicago would be more exciting to watch, and give us a better chance to win than once again going against Orlando.

O'Brien

March 14th, 2011
6:26 am

AJ,

Teague played PG, while Hinrich played SG. However, I agree with your assessment on Teague not being a prototypical PG. However, this being a motion offense (even if we don’t see it very often) does not require a traditional PG, so I think Teague should be able to handle the point as he improves and LD rewards him with PT.

Next up is the Bucks, who scored 56 points against the Celtics. That is a game the Hawks have to win.

BravesFan79,

I agree that playing Miami or Chicago in the playoffs might not be a bad thing for the Hawks. However, the way the season is going, we have no idea about the 1 and 2 seed. Boston and Chicago are close, so either team might end up as the 1 seed. And I don’t think the Hawks want any part of Boston in the first round.

Therefore, our best bet (imo) is to finish 5th or 6th. Stay away from 7th.

superiorblogman

March 14th, 2011
8:43 am

LMAO at any moron that bows down to another human being just because he or she wears a badge. Kinda the same reason a 90 year old woman ended up dead here in Atlanta a couple of years back. They really helped my sister when some gay white man stole her purse in her richy neighborhood. Yeah right, they helped her by telling her they never had those type of problems before. Police and the 911 people are notorious power hungry pieces of crap. Josh Powell probably did nothing wrong they were just trying to be on a power trip and show the hot shot NBA player who was really running things. Fools on this blog trying to act like they know the situation only show that they have not had many life experiences outside this blog.

O'Brien

March 14th, 2011
8:53 am

AJ, doc,

Chipper and McLouth have looked much better this spring than I thought they would. I think the Braves win the wild card, with 85-90 wins.

niremetal

March 14th, 2011
9:06 am

Man…it’s going off like a 5-alarm fire.

Dept. of Unintended Irony

March 14th, 2011
9:33 am

“Police and the 911 people are notorious power hungry pieces of crap.”

LOL, if the po-po and the 911 folks are SO power hungry why do they work for paupers wages? Dolt.

Perhaps since you are so upset about this you should move to a country without police and emergency services. You obviously don’t deserve them.

niremetal

March 14th, 2011
9:36 am

There’s a thread going on Hawksquawk about the seeming tension developing between Kirk and Josh. I thought this particular pair of pictures was too priceless not to post here:
http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/index.php/topic/357234-so-whats-the-deal-with-josh-and-kirk/page__view__findpost__p__500401

Rufus1

March 14th, 2011
9:55 am

Playing Teague might get LD FIRED!!!

If Teague continues to play at a high level, ASG is going to be very upset. They just gave up 2 1st rd picks to solve our PG problem and the solution may have been on the roster……I would be PISSED!!

LD’s stubborn insistance on trying to make Jamal” The turnover” Crawford a PG and the lack of control over Josh, won’t help his cause. Also, JC2 playing at a high level in Washington, plus the terrible offensive play lately(LD is an Offensive coach)does not look good for him.

Prediction #1…. Teague will play because LD is coaching for his job now.

Prediction #2…LD will be coaching highschool next year.

niremetal

March 14th, 2011
10:14 am

Right out the gate against Portland, he was hawking his man and driving the ball aggressively. Same was true against Phoenix and GS a couple weeks ago. But no one can say with a straight face that he’s always done that. You don’t need minutes to move your feet on defense or even to take the ball to the rim instead of simply handing it off to Jamal. If Teague had come out every time really getting after his man on defense, that would be one thing. But he didn’t. He defended with his hands (resulting in lots of reach-in fouls) and then handed the ball off to Jamal on the other end.

He played well Saturday night. He’s played well several times before. The problem is that he hasn’t been consistent even with the things that you don’t need minutes to do consistently, and young players on playoff teams can’t expect to be gifted minutes just to build their confidence.

All that said, he beasted Saturday night and I hope he keeps it up. We need him to.

niremetal

March 14th, 2011
10:14 am

Oops, wrong blog…

vava74

March 14th, 2011
10:43 am

nire,

Sometimes you’ll find people who need a treatment different than the norm to extract from them their potential. Teague clearly needed a clear vote of confidence and not to feel LD looking over his shoulder.

Also, IMO PGs are only “made” or “lost” with starter minutes and not by slowly developing them.

There are few examples of PGs who started slowly and then evolved into quality players than the opposite.

In most cases PGs have breakout seasons when they have an opportunity to play consistently rather than being brought along as subs.

Teague played against POR up to the level I always thought he would be able to because he was nominated a Starter (capital “S”) and not a “stop gap starter” whilst someone was injured or a traded player was still not with the team or not yet acclimated.

It’s unacceptable that an HC which finds all and any excuses to forgive Josh for his antics is not able to be less “square” when dealing with Teague.

It would have cost him ZERO wins to, during January-February when Bibby was going down fast, to speak with him and tell him that he wanted to give Teague a chance and that that time had come.

The fact that he did not do it before the trade evidences LD’s poor/limited ability as an HC to both launch a young player and give him the confidence to build upon mistakes and to control and appease a vet which would go to the bench.

With the above I am not saying that I am sure – or even very confident – that Teague will emulate POR’s game tomorrow, against a much faster – and fresher – Jennings, but nonetheless I will be very disappointed if LD does not give him at least 30 minutes of burn.

IMO our guard rotation should be – a fixed fixture – a three headed monster with Teague, Hinrich and JJ playing ±30 minutes each with JJ shifting to SF to accommodate Jamal’s EVENTUAL minutes which should be monitored and controlled closely on a “he is on, keep him in, he is off, take him out” basis.

niremetal

March 14th, 2011
11:08 am

Sorry, vava. There are plenty of good reasons to think that LD is poor/limited as a head coach. Not gifting Teague minutes is not one of them. Again, Teague hasn’t been consistent even with the things that he didn’t need minutes to do consistently. This is the NBA, a playoff team, not the D-League. You earn minutes a step at a time. Teague didn’t earn them.

Josh is different. He’d been around 7 years when LD took over. He’s a borderline All-Star. He helps this team with his help and transition D even when he’s making boneheaded plays on offense. I’m sorry, but do you honestly think there is a coach in the league who wouldn’t be cutting Josh WAY more slack than Teague at this stage in their respective careers? And even if they were treated the same, are you denying that Josh has been a better player than Teague this year and thus has earned more slack??

You have to earn your place in the NBA one brick at a time. You start by giving the team SOMEthing in a few minutes a game. Teague didn’t do that most times he hit the floor. He didn’t defend, he didn’t attack, and he didn’t make hustle plays. If Jamal is so damned bad, then Teague should have taken the reins himself like he did when he played with the starters on Saturday.

I probably would have shaken up the lineup sooner than LD did (though not seeing what happens in practice, I obviously am going on less than 100% information). But it wouldn’t be because Teague deserved more minutes. It was because this team needed a shakeup.

This is the big leagues. If you need your hand held in order to build your confidence, you probably won’t get anywhere. Young players have to look inside themselves to find what it takes to be a player at this level on a playoff team.

vava74

March 14th, 2011
1:52 pm

Sorry nire, but I strongly disagree.

HC deal with people, not machines.

Dealing with people requires the ability to use different methods when faced with different personalities.

Good HCs also show an knack to think out of the box and take gambles.

Some people/players need a vote of trust to fulfill their potential and with a vote of trust they jump start their games and shortly after they can do it on their own.

I also disagree that Teague had not yet shown anything similar to what we saw Saturday: strongly disagree.

The game in BOS was no different than this game: quick hands in the perimeter, good showing in the lane to double team, jets on his feet and dunks.

When given minutes he always produced. Did he show immaturity and lapses?

Off course he did, but Bibby was showing us NOTHING and still got his 30 minutes day in and day out and if not Bibby, it was Jamal getting the minutes at the PG slot.

INEXCUSABLE

People – you obviously included – have been excessively critical of Teague’s mistakes whilst manufacturing the myth that Bibby could compensate his shortcomings with his savvy, a notion which after a certain point of the season was reduced to a joke.

I’ll give you an example: Teague still gets baited frequently into fakes who end up generating many FTs, including several 3FTA.

Just recently Maynor, who has been lauded as a much more mature PG got baited exactly the same way by Lou Williams in Philly. Some of these “mistakes” happen also because the guy on the team is a specialist.

I don’t recall if it was this year or last when Teague got baited by Lou into 3FTA, but I remember that IMMEDIATELY after that happened he was pulled from the floor, Maynor, wasn’t and played the next 6 minutes.

To use square pegs all the time will no doubt collide with the realization that some holes are round.

As for Josh, LD managed to ruin the “only” positive job that Woody made: the fact is that Josh has regressed since last year’s all star play.

vava74

March 14th, 2011
1:53 pm

“…because the guy on the other team is a specialist at baiting others into mistakes.”

niremetal

March 14th, 2011
2:02 pm

Whatever, vava.

niremetal

March 14th, 2011
2:06 pm

I also disagree that Teague had not yet shown anything similar to what we saw Saturday: strongly disagree.

This and a few other lines in your post made it pretty clear that whatever you were responding to, it wasn’t actually to what I said. You’ve become pretty tough to talk with about this issue, which is unfortunate because you’re usually one of the best posters around here. But I don’t really see the point in carrying this discussion further.

O'Brien

March 14th, 2011
2:12 pm

I dont expect LD to give Teague the same leeway that the other veterans have earned.

However, Teachers are continuously pressed by the leadership above them to practice different teaching techniques with their students, because different students have different abilities/talents, and different students learn differently.

I think LD has NOT done a good job with finding the right way to bring Teague along.

I agree that Teague struggled in most of the opportunities he was given early on, and I dont think his minutes should be gift wrapped to him.

But if one approach was not working (Teague off the bench with Jamal), and the team is struggling, isn’t it up to the HC to try something/anything to find a spark?

However, despite Bibby’s struggles, and despite’s Jamal’s struggles playing backup PG, it never crossed LD’s mind to try Teague with the starters?

The starting lineup would come out slow and lethargic against a certain team, and fall behind by double digits. But what does LD do? Start the same team in the second half, only to watch the deficit grow. And this happened on multiple occasions.

With the team struggling, why not try Teague with the starters if LD “still believes in him”.

After the trade, Teague played well enough when he started those games, but once Hinrich was up to speed, he was automatically inserted as the starter, and Teague went back to getting inconsistent minutes.

LD talked about tinkering with the lineup (from before the AS game, then on the road trip after the AS game, then after the trade). And he did not do anything different until the Blazers game?

Teague deserves some blame, yes. But as the coach/teacher, LD did not help Teague vas much as he could (imo), and that’s ashame, because the team could have benefitted more.

vava74

March 14th, 2011
2:26 pm

nire,

You always cover your *ss in some way like Lawyers do, inserting small words and phases here and there that protects you from frontal attacks.

However, readers many times get the idea that, regardless of these safeguards, your opinions have a clear sense and that is why some people – including me in this case – end up attacking the underlying concept and disregard the “escape clauses” you insert.

You are an excellent poster and one of the people that really know about the game – far more than I do – but you are far too rigid with regard to blog etiquette :-D

Nonetheless, I understand where you are coming from: you post did have many safeguards and I should have not attacked it as if it the same did say black on white that Teague “had not yet shown anything similar to what we saw on Saturday”… My bad :-D

niremetal

March 14th, 2011
2:36 pm

O’B,

I actually agree that giving Teague some burn with the first unit might have been worth a shot. But that doesn’t explain why he couldn’t consistently do SOMEthing when he was playing his minutes with the second unit. Again, if he had just consistently moved his damned feet on defense or hustled after loose balls or attacked the rim – in other words, if he had done SOMEthing constructive that doesn’t require rhythm or minutes to do – then it would be one thing. But he didn’t do any of those things consistently – heck, most of the time he was out there, he did NONE of those things.

Also, I’m confused as to why people seem to think that Teague with the starters was what won us the game Saturday. We actually did quite poorly when that unit was on the floor:
http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20110312&game=PORATL

That being said, BasketballValue says we did quite well the few times we gave Teague burn with the starters earlier in the year. I wouldn’t have been averse to trying that. But I honestly don’t think the situation was as desperate as you make it sound until the 2-3 games right before the Hinrich trade. We were 33-18 going into the Philly game, which to me was the “this team needs to make a CFTSOC right NOW moment.” After that, it was just 4 games before the Hinrich trade and Teague’s first crack with the starters.

In any case, I still don’t think that our main problem was at PG. This team’s issues run deeper than that, and I don’t think stressing about the PG position would have really led to significant gains, unless Teague and Kirk find the collective gonads to (in order, more or less) force Josh and Al to get their asses under the basket on offense, convince Jamal to run the offense, get Marvin to stop fading into the weakside corner every possession, and get JJ to wake back up. But I hope I’m wrong.

Rod from College Park

March 14th, 2011
2:41 pm

“You are an excellent poster and one of the people that really know about the game – far more than I do – but you are far too rigid with regard to blog etiquette”

Two guys who never played the game, but really know the game (LOL). Guess I could just read a couple of books, and become a lawyer.

niremetal

March 14th, 2011
2:46 pm

I’ll point out something that I’ve said a couple times before, but that bears repeating. We’ve actually improved our defensive slightly as compared to last year (we’re 20th in the league in drebs now, compared to 23rd last year). But we’ve dropped from 6th in the NBA in Orebs last year to 26th this year. Most of that drop is attributable to Al and Smoove, whose ORebs/gm are down by almost a quarter compared to last year.

The downstream effects of our big men shooting so many jumpers worry me far more than the actual FG% on those jumpers, my Josh’s jumpers updates notwithstanding.

niremetal

March 14th, 2011
2:55 pm

Rod,

Remind me. How is it that you made it through your long illustrious playing career without ever learning that offensive fouls don’t lead to free throws?

doc

March 14th, 2011
2:56 pm

niremetal

March 14th, 2011
2:46 pm

I’ll point out something that I’ve said a couple times before, but that bears repeating. We’ve actually improved our defensive slightly as compared to last year (we’re 20th in the league in drebs now, compared to 23rd last year). But we’ve dropped from 6th in the NBA in Orebs last year to 26th this year. Most of that drop is attributable to Al and Smoove, whose ORebs/gm are down by almost a quarter compared to last year.

The downstream effects of our big men shooting so many jumpers worry me far more than the actual FG% on those jumpers, my Josh’s jumpers updates notwithstanding.

i get so bored when the same people bring up the same ole sh!t over and over. ;-)

Rod from College Park

March 14th, 2011
4:02 pm

nireclown,

The same way that Marvin Williams was supposed to be one of the best players on this team. Great talent evaluator you are.

niremetal

March 14th, 2011
4:29 pm

Remarkable how no matter what the topic conversation is, Rod manages to find a way to bring up his opinion of Marvin.

First, I’ve never claimed to be a great talent evaluator, Rod. You, on the other hand, have claimed to have played D1 basketball and deride the basketball knowledge of people who haven’t played at a high enough level. That makes your statement about drawing a charge leading to free throws – shall we say – questionable.

Second, I did (and do) think that Marvin was one of the 3-4 best players on this team back in ‘08-’09. I do not think that he is today.

Third, that offensive fouls do not lead to free throws is not an opinion. It is a fact. Opinions on the qualities of players are just that – opinions. Opinions on the quality of players may be supported or weakened by facts, but they are not facts themselves. Opinions can also change with time (well, except yours, apparently). You frequently confuse “opinions” with “facts” and declare that your opinions have been “proven” right, when in reality they can never proven right because they are opinions.

Fourth, I don’t think that playing high-level basketball is necessary to have a good working knowledge of basketball, nor is playing high-level basketball a guarantee that you have a good working knowledge of basketball. If it were, then Isiah Thomas and Kevin McHale would have made better head coaches and GMs than guys like Mike Fratello and Mark Warkentien.

Lastly, I didn’t realize that playing basketball at the college level or higher was a prerequisite to having opinions that can be shared on a blog. If it is, then we should all clear out of here and allow AJC to save the server space.

Rod from College Park

March 14th, 2011
7:02 pm

1. I only deride people like you and Vava, who post stupid stats, and make comments like Marvin Williams is one of the best players on the Hawks, and Tracy McGrady is a loser (Vava) because his team never got out of the first round.

2. The things I post about Marvin are not opinions, they are facts. The things I posted 3 years ago, have proven to be facts. You post opinions, and then try to post stats to validate your opinions. What you fail to understand is that stats fail to tell the whole story.

3. I attack clowns who have agendas against players with no real knowlege of the game. For instance your posting of Josh’s jumpers watch, but no posting of Joe Johnson’s jumpers watch, Marvin Williams jumpers watch, Jamal Crawford jumpers watch. Why single out Josh, they all have been terrible. You single him out without realizing that his coach keeps putting him offensively behind the 3 point line. His teammates continue to pass him the ball behind the 3 point line. Is the whole team dumb? Vava rails against Jamal with no reason for doing so. If you say Jamal is terrible this year because he is missing a ton of open jumpers, you have a case, but all the other ranting is pure hate. He never was a good defender, or a great point guard. He has made his name in this league for being a scorer. You both bash guys who come out and compete every night, and do their jobs, but you never post anything about a guy who comes out and give you virtually nothing every game.

4. If you lose a case, does that mean that you don’t have more knowledge about being a lawyer than me? Can I go down to the courthouse, watch a few cases in person, watch court cases on tv, and become a lawyer? Can I determine what the law profession entails by watching cases on TV? If you study, go to grad school, earn a law degree and practice law in the real world, you know a little more about the law profession than the average blogger. Isiah Thomas and Kevin Mchale have more basketball knowledge than you and Vava could ever dream of. Players don’t have to translate to good coaches and good coaches might not end up being great gm’s, but playing the game at a high level gives you a better perspective than two clowns on a blog. Stick to the cap stuff. You seem to at least be knowlegable about that.

5. If I posted all the questionable comments you have made, I would be posting from now to the end of the year. Get over yourself. When I make a comment about Marvin that is not true please let me know. Since you want to find old post, please find some of our old debates, post them, and let’s see who was right.

niremetal

March 14th, 2011
7:16 pm

When I make a comment about Marvin that is not true please let me know.

I remember you posting that Marvin fell over on 60% of his drives or something like that, and it took a few weeks of hounding by Sautee to admit that (objectively verifiable) statement was not correct. Most of the rest of your “comments” about Marvin are opinions, and thus incapable of being true or false.

Sorry, Rod. Still, you are unable to distinguish between your own opinion and facts. Opinions cannot be “proven to be facts.” They are opinions. Unless you’re some god I’m not aware of, you lack the capacity to make your own opinions into facts. It’s nothing new with you, so I’m not gonna bother with it more.

Have a nice day.

O'Brien

March 14th, 2011
7:44 pm

doc,

A breakout game for Bibby against Memphis yesterday. 17 pts (5-5 from 3), 4 assists in 25 minutes. I hope the Spurs put another whipping on the Heat tonight.

In the Lakers game, they went to Wade down the stretch (instead of LeBron), and it worked out a lot better. I think that will continue, and I think this will be close game in the 4th.

Rod from College Park

March 14th, 2011
8:08 pm

Can I become a lawyer or make an educated guess on what the law profession without practicing law? Answer the question clown. Marvin is not better than Josh. Is that not true? That’s what our whole debate stemmed from. Stop covering you a@% like lawyers do and admit when you are wrong. You have a better day CLOWN. Come to Atlanta, the circus is hiring.

Rod from College Park

March 14th, 2011
8:12 pm

“Since you want to find old post, please find some of our old debates, post them, and let’s see who was right.’

I did not think you would. Youv’e got time to post about everything else. Post that.

niremetal

March 14th, 2011
8:21 pm

Uh…can you become a lawyer without practicing law? You can become a member of the bar without practicing the law, yes, as long as you’ve been to law school. Can you make an educated guess about what the legal profession entails without practicing law? Absolutely. There are many, many “educated laymen” who contribute to and comment on the legal world in a constructive manner. How insightful your comments are will undoubtedly be proportional to the amount of time you’ve spent reading about the law. But I know plenty of trial lawyers who don’t know anything outside whatever trial lawyer niche they practice in, and one of my best law professors was a Jesuit priest who had never been to law school.

Is Marvin better than Josh? I would say that on most nights, no. And not as an all around player. But that is my opinion. Not a fact. Do you really not understand the difference between an opinion and a fact? That’s a rhetorical question, btw.

And now, I really am done with you.

doc

March 14th, 2011
8:52 pm

yeah o’b bibby is hot again wuth 7 straight 3’s. i expect him to have his games and help some in spurts. miami looks better of late and there is a resurgence of bosh going into the paint.

thanks for the heads up on the game. i hadnt noticed it being pretty busy of late. orlando and lakers to follow. i think the scheduling computer was told to hold all games of meaning to very specific times of the year.

doc

March 14th, 2011
11:35 pm

intresting take on josh from other blog:

northcyde

March 14th, 2011
10:11 pm

@ SB75

If there were 5 seconds left on the game clock, would you draw up a play to have the ball in Josh’s hands for him to shoot the ball?

If you were down 10 points to start the 4th quarter, would you expect Josh to have a big scoring quarter to get us back into the game?

Can Josh create his own shot off the dribble and score from multiple places on the court?

If you can’t answer YES to all 3 questions, then Josh Smith is NOT a scorer.

Monta Ellis is a scorer. Jason Terry is a scorer. Jamal Crawford is a scorer.

Josh isn’t a scorer. He’s a very good utility player. Or a better description . . he’s a “5-Tool Player””

That is a guy that fills the stat sheet by putting up numbers in the 5 major statistical categories:

- points
- rebounds
- assists
- blocks
- steals

Scorers can explode and get you 25 points in a game by literally taking over the game offensively.

Josh Smith is not that type of player..

When Smith “explodes” on the stat sheet, it usually looks like this:

16 points
9 rebounds
7 assists
5 blocks
3 steals

He dominates a game not by scoring, but by doing some of everything. That’s what makes him a 5-Tool Player and not a “scorer”.

the last thirty one games have shown night and day difference in what our scorers jamal and jj have been able to bring and our success has hung on what they have done. for 15 games stating in jan they were tearing it up and we went 11-4 making LD’s system look good. the next 16 games, not so good and our fortunes have followed at 5-11. in that great stretch jamal and jj had ~7 games over 30 and jj had another three of 28, 29 and 29. unfortuanately jj is struggling to get beyond the low teens since. yes, as big ray and others say and i agree he helps in many ways but he is our difference maker and scorer. until he comes together and becomes less indifferent we are going to struggle or someone else is going to have to show up and make him irrelevant. again, jamal and jj as scorers are the difference makers. they are the guys the ball goes to in crunch time. i hope last game shows jamal has begun to break out. if he follows up on it and jj follows suit, i will be as giddy as i was in january. if they dont, it will be a long month and quick exit as all the defense in the world doesnt help if you cant score the ball on the other end, which doesnt include a for sure post player to toss it to and have him score in close.

i hope josh and al both heard bosh say he had to go to the rim and take the pop out of the pick and roll. he said very strongly he was holding himself accountable for doing what was needed inside. miami had a fine game tonight, mighty fine. the same needs to be said for josh and al if we are to turn the boat around before it is too late. not sure either one is ready to go for it.

doc

March 15th, 2011
12:06 am

lakers come roaring back.

Rod from College Park

March 15th, 2011
12:14 am

Answered just like a lawyer. Josh is a better basketball player than Marvin, that is a fact. It was a fact 3 years ago, and it’s a fact to this day. Deal with it. Keep up with your jumpers watch updates (LOL).

Rod from College Park

March 15th, 2011
12:19 am

“He (Chills), Horford, and Marvin are the only solid players we’ve had in the past few years who are willing to give up a shot at gaudier stat lines to help the team win.” Niremetal

Great Post Clown.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 15th, 2011
1:39 am

“When given minutes he always produced. Did he show immaturity and lapses?

Off course he did, but Bibby was showing us NOTHING and still got his 30 minutes day in and day out and if not Bibby, it was Jamal getting the minutes at the PG slot.”

This, right here, is the most important point regarding Teague. If even someone of Kirk Hinrich’s caliber was here from day one, as opposed to a washed up one dimensional defensive sieve, the clamor for Teague would have been at a whisper.

vava74

March 15th, 2011
4:38 am

Rod,

Knowing how to physically play a game and knowing about the game are two different things.

You can hit ten three pointers in a row and never learned how to play the triangle offense, for instance.

Worse, you may even be able to get to know but never make the effort and base your whole career on your physical talent.

Jamal is a one dimensional streaky scorer and all the talent in the world he has to do his tricky dribbles and bait guys into 3+1 do not change the fact that he is unreliable and that his stock in the league is not that high.

And please, don’t come with the SMOY thing will you? He had a good year last year but his production was mostly early in the game (and this is fact – as is ATL’s defensive stats drop off with him on the floor).

O'Brien

March 15th, 2011
7:23 am

doc,

I thought the Heat would have a chance to win in the 4th. But to win by 30? Did not see that coming at all.

Bosh with 30 and 12. Are you ready to trade Josh for him?

And the Lakers beat the Magic. If the Hawks could have gone on a hot streak, they would have had a chance to catch the Magic.

doc

March 15th, 2011
8:23 am

big if o’b.

heat have been losing close, we were losing in double digits.

lakers put a whipping on them didnt they? bynum didnt shy away from superman at all, pretty even match up.

wordsmithtom

March 15th, 2011
9:22 am

Superiorblogman,
You won’t get punked when you speak to the policeman using the first name “sir”. You may not like the law, or the man who inforces it, but you disrespect at your own peril.

Cool Hand Luke
“What we have here is failure to communicate.”

John Cash
Folsom Prison Blues

Elvis Presley
Jail House Rock

Johnny Horton
“I faught the law, but the law won”

The 50’s-60’s white dominated media showed what happened to white punks/badasses. This is NOT a racial thing…it’s about the power of the majority. Civil society will not tolerate incivility. Ask the judge who sentenced the kid to life +60 for killing a bartender. Just not going to tolerate it. Glorify punkazz behavior all you want, and the white kids did this in the 50’s, but it ended up badly for them too.

Melvin

March 15th, 2011
9:38 am

Dept. of Unintended Irony = wordsmithtom???????? hmmmm

wordsmithtom

March 15th, 2011
9:58 am

Melvin, that would indeed be unintended irony. Not me, though I do find him clever.

Just sayin’. Josh Powell “cleaned up his act” by shedding the dreds. But, he didn’t show leadership by punking the police who were directing traffic. LEADERSHIP lacking. He can redeem himself by apologizing and doing community service. But, he is on the WRONG side of the law and of civil society. That’s all I’m sayin’.

Anyone who glorifies punkazz behavior, be he a hip hopper or a 50’s t-shirt wearing James Dean deals with the law in the same way. Disrespect,,,and disrespect yields more disrespect.

Yen never yields yang….

doc

March 15th, 2011
10:19 am

yang never yields yin.

wordsmithtom

March 15th, 2011
10:23 am

LOL yin yield 10% less yen than yesterday. Thanks for the correction doc. My spelling is atrocious.

All’s what I’z sayin’ is: Man who walk around with azz on shoulders will have it flushed every time.

JP needs to be praying for the poor soul whom the officers were trying to escort to hospital. He needs to be down on his knees. Period.

Yes, there are rogue policemen, just as there are rogue businessmen, rogue teachers, rogue anything human. But, one conducts themselves in the high calling of life, good will prevail in the long run.

vava74

March 15th, 2011
10:28 am

Is this enough leadership by JJ?:

“I was in a similar position as Jeff,” Joe said. “Back in my first and second year in the league, my minutes were sporadic. Whenever I got a chance to play I always produced and tried to do my best. When Phoenix traded away Penny and Steph, I just kind of blossomed.

“I look at Jeff as the same way. He’s got unbelievable talent, speed, explosive. He has all the tools. He’s confidence is the only thing left. Once he gets his confidence he is going to be a beast.”

niremetal

March 15th, 2011
10:37 am

Make it simple, guys: ¥

doc

March 15th, 2011
10:42 am

yes word, sadly the yen is dropping, very tragic situation. moon the closest to earth now on many 100’s of thousand years exerting its full power. naw, pure hogwash, right?

actually yin within yang and vice versa always yielding to each other in harmony. doubt powell in harmony only late to the game and pissed off he had to wait and maybe be fined or just worried he would have to get a real parking spot and have to walk. his concerns were much greater than whomever was in trouble needing an ambulance. anyway, poor judgment on his part.

funny the blogger criticizing “the man” seems to overlook the fact powell already had a run in with the law of the hawks in LD and sat a game for his insubordination. got to wonder what is going through his head right now. hope he finds right action in his heart or he is going to be out of the league soon. you got to do more than cut dreds to lead.

wordsmithtom

March 15th, 2011
10:52 am

Happy to see JT get a quality start: one where he gets consistent minutes throughout. His kind of speed can open up lanes for Josn and Horf. I do agree with Superiorblogman on one thing. I like JJ at the 3 here with MW coming off the bench. This is the pre-Shaq setup Boston used when they moved Pierce to the 3 and that yielded many plusses. We still don’t have an inforcing 5. Perhaps that gets addressed this summer, as I think it will if we get new ownership and new GM. But, of the guys we have, JJ fits at 3 better than 2…..and NEVER should be used as a 1 when you have a JT available.

Dept. of Unintended Irony

March 15th, 2011
11:49 am

superiorblogman

March 15th, 2011
3:18 am

Enough said. Irony doesn’t get much thicker than a racist trying his best to justify his hate. As if, lol.

O'Brien

March 15th, 2011
11:52 am

Al should be playing tonight.

LD could shoose to go with the same lineup (Teague, Hinrich, JJ, Josh and Al), but since Collins started the previous 2 games against the Bucks, I think LD will go with the big lineup of Twin, Al, Josh, and JJ.

However, who will be the starting PG? Will Teague get the start again? I dont think LD will start him, but I think Teague should start regardless of whether LD goes big or small.

vava74

March 15th, 2011
12:09 pm

OB,

If LD does not start Teague tonight he may damage his psyche irreversibly.

Hinrich is a grown man and will not question LD’s choice.

MC’s blog clearly indicated that LD is only considering to play Teague-Hinrich as a combo, so there is a pretty good chance that he will remove one of them from the line up.

O'Brien

March 15th, 2011
1:59 pm

MC’s tweet;

•#Hawks starters vs. #Bucks: Teague, Hinrich, Johnson, Smith, @Al_Horford. Johnson to wear headband for skin infection on head.

So LD is going with the Teague-Hinrich combo again. I did not think he would…

niremetal

March 15th, 2011
2:04 pm

Good to see. If he didn’t give Teague the starting nod after Saturday…

Melvin

March 15th, 2011
2:49 pm

““Usually at the two and the three it’s going to be very similar,” Drew said. “He will be defending the same type of actions. At the one it’s just totally different. One thing is that at the two and the three he will probably be in more switchable situations, which should help in defending some of the stagger screens and misdirection stuff. ”

I being saying for years that the 2 and 3 positions are similar, especially on the offensive side of the ball. Now you may have to make adjustments on the defensive side depending on the opposing team wing players.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 15th, 2011
5:24 pm

“Now you may have to make adjustments on the defensive side depending on the opposing team wing players.”

This is the important part. It really just depends on the matchup. Much like Al can play center against most teams but can’t against a few teams, whether or not Joe should be at the 2 or the 3 really just depends on who is guarding him.

In Joe’s case, his game and strengths are not really very similar to those of most 2-guards anyway. Really, if he can’t post up the opposing 2 guard, playing him at the 2 is a disadvantage to him since he doesn’t have the quickness to take most people off the dribble. At the 3, though, it’s conceivable that he’d have more success driving (although that remains to be proven).

Ken Strickland

March 15th, 2011
7:10 pm

OBRIEN-I didn’t think he would either, but I guess he finally got it through his thick Woodson like skull that PG matchups are just as important, if not more so, as C matchups.

At this stage in his development, Teague can’t score outside like Bibby or Hinrich, but his ability to penetrate and break down DEF’s adds a much needed dimension. His ability to take his man off the dribble using speed and quickness, rather than relying on clearouts and pounding the ball, is invaluable when we’re not hitting our jump shots.

Starting Teague and Hinrich in the back court gives us additional speed, quickness, DEF, and a major weapon at SF with JJ, as well as greatly improve our perimeter DEF. I think it’s a given that Jamal won’t be resigned. However, I don’t see it as a major loss if we’re selective in who we replace him with.

Even now with Jamal, we need another scoring option off the bench, because he’s so streaky and needs to control the ball to be effective, which can make him difficult for some to play with. I’m beginning to see a lot of the old DWilkins coming out, and you can see him gaining more and more confidence in his OFF gm.

He’s not deferring like he was earlier, and he’s taking shots he never even considered taking earlier. If things continue to shape up, like the impact and development of JTeague, KHinrich and DWilkins, along with Zaza’s new found energy, we might have a lot to say about who represents the East in the NBA finals.

vava74

March 15th, 2011
7:54 pm

WTF ia happening JJ? is he wearing the headband as I read on MC’s blog?

If so, could this be his game’s “missing link”? :-D

Melvin

March 15th, 2011
8:04 pm

Joe needs to wear that headband more often…

Sautee

March 15th, 2011
8:13 pm

Gotta be the headband. :-)

(Spike reference for those confused)

Melvin

March 15th, 2011
8:13 pm

I hope Joe shoot like this against Miami on Friday….

Melvin

March 15th, 2011
8:15 pm

Well damn, Jordan is starting for the Wiz tonight…

Sautee

March 15th, 2011
8:15 pm

KenS,

Co-sign on Damien. Now if LD will just put him in.

Big Ray

March 15th, 2011
8:17 pm

superiorblogman ,

Two things:

1) Here was my post, read the first sentence carefully –

“My experience leads me to have ZERO sympathy for Powell in connection with this incident, assuming it is accurate . Inexcusable behavior. Not simply because he failed to follow the directions of an officer, but because of the complete disregard for the victim in the emergency vehicle (or the one they may have been going to get) , as well as the personnel who were trying to perform that often thankless job.”

The last part of that sentence is commonly called a caveat. My opinion is based on the assumption that the reported incident is accurate in its description. If it’s not, then my opinion changes. However, I’m not going to get into arguments about whether or not one should believe what is reported in the news. Because if we do, then you may as well say that the media is a bunch of power hungry individuals who are reporting things how they choose to see them. But, I digress….my point is that your suggestion that those of us who commented on the Josh Powell situation are a bunch of fools who think they know what happened…is plain wrong. We don’t know that it happened the way it was reported. Just like you don’t know that it DIDN’T happen that way. Can’t prove either way.

2) I don’t take offense to your opinion on law enforcement and emergency services, and even if I did, it’s not something to take personally (even if you are describing your resentment against somebody like me, who serves in that profession). I certainly have no problems with your opinions overall, as this is what a blog is for.

However, the race-baiting comments you made have no place on this blog. Please refrain from such conversations here. That isn’t just you, that goes for everybody .

niremetal

March 15th, 2011
8:31 pm

Maybe Joe should get head wounds more often.

niremetal

March 15th, 2011
8:35 pm

I think JJ’s career high is 42. He has 36 now with 3 minutes left in the 3rd, but he always seems to stop shooting when he gets this close…

niremetal

March 15th, 2011
8:38 pm

If JJ doesn’t keep wearing the headband after tonight…well, it won’t mean anything but superstitions are silly and JJ doesn’t seem the type to buy into them. But still, a big part of me hopes he keeps wearing it anyway :)

O'Brien

March 15th, 2011
8:41 pm

nire,

Maybe JJ is wearing one of Josh’s headbands…

He should continue wearing it though, like Rip Hamilton kept wearing the mask for a long time after he was better

richbrave

March 15th, 2011
9:14 pm

Just a quick note. Thank you Mr. SUND. JORDAN CRAWFORD gets his first start as a WIZARD and drops 21 on the BULLS …….. in the first half alone. The young man is ON FIRE including 3-4 from 3-point land. I mean, he’s stroking it. Again, thank you RICK.

lukas

March 15th, 2011
9:16 pm

JC2 damn!!

I knew that trading this kid was a mistake, but he is proving it in a big way!!

superiorblogman

March 15th, 2011
9:34 pm

Big Ray go jump off the nearest bridge. The truth will remain the truth no matter what your opinion is. My notes were all facts. Yours are not. Good win for the Hawks tonight. JJ came back to life, Josh Smith played well, Al played well, Marvin played well, Jamal did not force things and Teague outplayed Jennings.

Melvin

March 15th, 2011
9:44 pm

Oh my, Jordan Crawford has 25pts on 9-15 shooting with 3mins left in the 3rd qtr….

O'Brien

March 15th, 2011
9:54 pm

So many of us bloggers thought Rick should have traded jamal in the offseason, and let Mo Evans and JC2 handle the backup SG spot. Now we get to see JC2 get some PT, and he has excelled.

Sure, he will have his bad games, but he has alot of potential. I’m happy for the young-fellow.

I hoped we could have gotten Kirk for Bibby and a 1st, because it would have been nice to keep JC2…

Big Ray

March 15th, 2011
10:09 pm

superiorblogman ,

No facts in your 3:18 a.m. post (which was removed), just racially-charged accusations against other posters. The warning stands. End of conversation.

As for jumping off a bridge, I can’t help you there.

Melvin

March 15th, 2011
10:18 pm

Javale McGee would have a triple double if he could score 1 more point… 12rebs and 12blks….LOL

Big Ray

March 15th, 2011
10:23 pm

O’brien ,

Yeah, you know how that goes. You have to admit though, that’s the first time in who knows how long that a young guard has been let go from the team, only to show initial potential elsewhere. Salim’s out of the League and Acie is a journeyman type already.

I wish Jordan Crawford well, and didn’t want to see him traded.

Melvin

March 15th, 2011
10:25 pm

Congrats to Javale he got his triple double with a dunk and then got a tech for hanging on the rim….LOL

Big Ray

March 15th, 2011
10:27 pm

And to be honest, Damien Wilkins makes me forget all about Mo Evans.

I’m glad to see Joe breakout like this. I don’t know what it took, but we need more of it. Good to see 2 wins in a row. We’d only seen that from this team one other time since February 5th.

In fact, it was nice to see the offense get in a groove as a whole, while maintaining a defensive posture.

Big Ray

March 15th, 2011
10:34 pm

Nice to see Teague do well in his second straight start.

I’m glad Josh picked up the slack on the glass, what with Horford being subpar in that category. I’m assuming that was due in large part to his sore ankle.

21 turnovers? A little scary, but clearly a pretty high FG percentage and some good defense overcame it. Against a better team, that would be a killer, so we need to tone that down. The two biggest culprits were Josh and Jamal (go figure). But…I can’t really bash Jamal for that when he had 8 freakin’ assists.

Marvin Williams – I still like him coming off the bench. It really seems to work out better that way. Now…will LD keep this lineup except when bigger ones are needed (like against Orlando)?

Does Teague get to keep his starting job (why not)?

Will the Hawks forget about sharing the ball the way they did tonight (31 assists!), or will they remember. This group isn’t known for sticking with what works for very long. Here’s to hoping that will change very quickly, but not holding our collective breath…

Ken Strickland

March 15th, 2011
10:47 pm

BIG RAY-You know as well as I that Drew wasn’t going to play or develop Jordan Crawford. He’d be lucky if Drew allow him to even dress for most gms down the stretch. He’s demonstrated that he shares Woodson’s disdane for playing and developing younger guards.

niremetal

March 15th, 2011
10:48 pm

I didn’t like us including JC2 in that deal, but it sounds like Washington was insisting on both young talent and a draft pick. A part of me is hoping that this is just an example of bad team stat inflation. We’ve all seen guys go nuts in the last month of the season on bad teams (remember Shelden winning Rookie of the Month?). But I have a sneaking feeling JC2 is at least to end up as a Flip type during his career.

richbrave

March 15th, 2011
10:55 pm

MO E is good bench depth at three even though I’m sure he doesn’t want it that way. CRAWFORD became the target of that excellent CHICAGO d mid-way through the third, and they just kept the ball out of his hands. Still he had 27, and several nice pass assists, and boards. Not too much defense, but that’ll come I think. By the mid-fourth, he was just out of gas. Played 46 minutes. Tried several shots and was short each time. The talk was all about McGEE and his triple double. Nary a post-game comment about a young man who grew a lot in my estimation this evening – JC15 [WALL is 2}.

richbrave

March 15th, 2011
10:59 pm

Ken Strickland

March 15th, 2011
10:47 pm
BIG RAY-You know as well as I that Drew wasn’t going to play or develop Jordan Crawford. He’d be lucky if Drew allow him to even dress for most gms down the stretch. He’s demonstrated that he shares Woodson’s disdane for playing and developing younger guards.

Hey KEN:

Sorry the HAWKS don’t do that. Glad the WIZARDS will do that. What’s eating the HAWKS inside game anyway?

Big Ray

March 15th, 2011
11:03 pm

Ken ,

Sorry bro’, but I’m not going to let you drag me onto the anti-Drew train, LOL. I have my issues with him, but I’m not going to assume he NEVER would have played the kid at all. I actually understood the lack of playing time for Jordan. The kid wasn’t going to take minutes from Joe at SG, and he can’t defend, so what makes him better than Jamal right now? Nevermind, I don’t wanna argue the point…

Having said that, I still tend to look at things from an asset management standpoint. If Jordan could provide what Jamal does, then he does so at less of a price and we can let Jamal go. But Jordan hasn’t proven anything just yet. Just that he’s not afraid to shoot the ball, and he can score. Can he blow up and hit a team for 30+ points on any given night? We don’t know. But it will be the Wizards that find out….

Big Ray

March 15th, 2011
11:10 pm

Nire ,

I think it’s clear that you’re right: the deal would have been a no-go without including JC2. I can’t blame the Wiz or the Hawks for that one, and the fact is, I’m glad the deal got done. We would have been hard-pressed to find another guy who could defend opposing PGs with gusto the way Hinrich does, and then slide over to the SG spot so Teague could get his burn. On top of that, we got another big man prospect of sorts, who may be able to help us towards the end of the bench.

From a purely basketball business standpoint, Hilton Armstrong is taller and more athletic than Josh Powell. I’ll take him in place of Powell next season, just like I’ll take Damien Wilkins in place of Mo Evans.

Big Ray

March 15th, 2011
11:13 pm

RichBrave ,

Can’t blame the Wiz at all. They’re young all over the place, so of course JC2 will get his burn. I’m glad for him, it would have been a tough path in the ATL, and unless the Hawks were looking to move JC1, it would have remained tough.

Enjoy the kid. He has no hesitation with the ball in his hands, and as we already knew, he can pass the ball, too. Hope and pray he gets beyond his ATL namesake when it comes to defense, because right now he’s worse than Jamal is. And that’s no mean feat. The good news is that the kid can learn. Jamal is kinda beyond it.

Big Ray

March 15th, 2011
11:15 pm

Maybe it’s too small of a sample, but I think games like this are just more proof that Smith simply does better when he’s playing the 4 spot. His rebounds are up, and so are his blocks. He just can’t block shots or rebound like that when he’s running around the perimeter with opposing SFs.

Big Ray

March 15th, 2011
11:20 pm

Oh….and don’t hand the Knicks the 5th seed just yet. While we were beating the brakes off Milwaukee, they were lost a shootout with the Indiana Pacers, 119-117.

Seriously, they gave up damn near 120 points to the Pacers?

How about this – they also got a beat down from Tyler Hansbrough, who was the game-high man. That’s right. Dude led all scorers with 30 points. No, seriously. NY swag took a hit. That was just plain ugly. I wonder if Amare has something smart to say about that , after all the trash talking he tried to do with Al Horford (who is better than Hansbrough any day)?

Melvin

March 15th, 2011
11:41 pm

Vava,

Jamal had the highest (30) +/- tonight…LOL

JSS

March 16th, 2011
2:14 am

Playoffs must be getting near, all the bloggers are getting testy!

Wow, I went to sleep the other night and Stretch called me out! Be gads!

Well, finally found the chink in the Knicks armor. Those dudes still have not realized they better make some stops!

The Hawks may have have finally found a balance in that roster. I just hope they keep riding their strengths, and don’t revert when they get punched in the month again…

Have a great night…

vava74

March 16th, 2011
2:30 am

Melvin,

Even a broken watch is right twice a day!

Now, seriously: I will watch the game later and post my comments then.

I have no gripe against Jamal as an individual: I don’t think his problem is not caring, I think his problem is that he can’t help being as he is, so my gripe is with LD for overusing him when he is not playing well.

So when he does plays well, I AM HAPPY for HIM and for the Hawks.

vava74

March 16th, 2011
2:33 am

Ray,

Al may be a lot better than Tyler Hansbourough, however, Al has a tendency to shy away from tough match ups. He is kind of a softie and less and less “the Boss”.

Tyler has limited physical (and even technical) tools but is tough as nails, so its the second time he took it to NYK in just a week (29 and 30 pts last two games).

Note as well that Billups is washed up defensively and that many PGs are having career nights against him. Obviously he is still a force offensively but he is getting burned big time this year.

vava74

March 16th, 2011
4:26 am

wordsmithtom

March 16th, 2011
7:20 am

Big Ray, it might be fun…..

http://www.freakingnews.com/Bungee-Jumping-Pictures-24293.asp

I’ll jump if you will…..:)

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
9:29 am

Nice to be on the right side of a blow-out. Also good to see another team quit in mid-game.

According to Steve Holman (radio call), Bogut body-slammed Marvin and then scored on the next possession for the Bucks. It seems that someone should have given Bogut a hard foul if he truly mugged Marvin (I understand that Holman is good for hyperbole so I’m guessing it wasn’t quite the violent crime he made it out to be).

nire, JC2 as a young Flip is a good call. I hope that it happens for him. If he ever learns how to defend, he could be more than a nice piece off the bench for a bad team.

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
10:04 am

AJ,

In addition to defense, I think he will have to improve his shot selection if he wants to be a starter on a playoff team.

Big Ray,

The kid wasn’t going to take minutes from Joe at SG, and he can’t defend, so what makes him better than Jamal right now? .

He isn’t. But assuming we lose Jamal next year, we will be in the market for a backup SG. And keep in mind that with JJ playing minutes at SF, there are more minutes available at SG.

As for the Knicks, they are 6-6 since the Carmelo trade. Ouch.

However, they are still capable of big games (they did beat Miami in Miami). I think D’Antoni is a bad coach for them, because the players are not known for their defense, and the coach does not care about defense. That’s a bad combination (imo).

vava74

March 16th, 2011
10:19 am

OB,

Not only D’Antoni is not an ace-HC but also ‘Melo is also a bit on the overrated side (look at Denver’s records since his departure).

Two ball hungry scorers who only play D (and rebound in Amare’s case) when they are “up to that” due to “personal reasons” and not due to a “desire to win every night” is always a difficult combo to work with.

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
10:25 am

OB, SGs who can play 15-20 minutes/game are a dime a dozen. Sund was wrong to believe that he could waste a draft pick for a need a year away. This team needs guys who can contribute immediately. Instead of a “designated scorer”, I’d like to see Sund bring in someone with a complete game at back-up SG. Assuming he is healthy, I’d love to see Azubuike join the Hawks next season (as an example).

niremetal

March 16th, 2011
10:45 am

Al may be a lot better than Tyler Hansbourough, however, Al has a tendency to shy away from tough match ups. He is kind of a softie and less and less “the Boss”.

I hate to say it, but this is the direction Al has been going. Maybe it’s just the natural progression that happens when you go from proving yourself to being an All-Star – you have less to prove, so you go to more of a finesse game. But Al’s shooting way more jumpers this year than last year and is mixing it up a lot less inside defensively. I wouldn’t call him a softie yet. But he’s definitely not the blue collar guy he was in his first couple seasons.

niremetal

March 16th, 2011
10:56 am

One more symptom of that: Even though Al’s FG% is noticeably up from last year (.565 from .551) and his FT% is slightly up (.800 from .789), his TS% is basically identical (.595 instead of .594). That’s because he’s getting far less of his offense at the free throw line than he did last year. Last year, he had 3.14 FG attempts for every FT attempt. This year, it’s up to 4.90 FGA/FTA. Put another way, free throws accounted for 18.6% of Al’s points; this year, it’s down to 12.6%. That’s huge for a one-year shift.

With Josh, it’s similar. Despite the fact that his free throw percentage is up drastically from last year (.731 vs. .618), he is getting a lower percentage of his points at the line (18.2% vs. 20.6%).

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
10:58 am

nire, I thinnk Al decided last summer that he is a PF and regardless of who he has to defend, he is playing PF this season. I also suspect that today’s PF would rather be “skilled” than bang. Although the truly elite are able to do both.

niremetal

March 16th, 2011
10:59 am

For future reference, these are the things I view stats as very useful for – if you look beyond the box scores, you can see trends in players’ games. None of what I just said indicates whether Josh or Al is playing “better” or “worse” than they did last year. But it does indicate that they are playing the game quite differently.

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
11:18 am

nire, I think those stats validate what is pretty obvious as we have watched the season unfold.

In terms of “skill gaps”, finding someone capable of generating FTAs may be something that Sund should try to address this summer. Last year we were dependent on the iso play, this year we live and die by the jumper. At some point, this team needs a solid Plan B (either run constantly, even after made baskets, or pay rent at the free throw line).

doc

March 16th, 2011
12:28 pm

then there is the question nire as to what is truly statiscally significant on any number especislly those of josh. what is the p value on the difference between 18 and 20. i doubt much at all.

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
12:50 pm

AJ,

The problem is getting a more complete backup player given the money the Hawks spend on backups. And they will probably only give 1 year offers.

niremetal

March 16th, 2011
12:53 pm

Doc, I can’t tell if you’re kidding or not. P values? You do realize that the concept of P values has zero relevance to these types of statistics, right? I mean, what’s the null hypothesis here that’s being tested?

Ken Strickland

March 16th, 2011
1:19 pm

BIG RAY-I’m not going to let you make me out to be anti Drew, because that’s nothing more than a misconception on your part. While there are certain things about Drew that I have a disdane for, it doesn’t mean I have a disdane for him. I still consider him to be a definite upgrade over Woodson.

I do have a disdane for the Woody side of him that seems to rear its ugly head far too often to suit me. It’s hurt Teague’s development, created undue problems for his teammates, and hurt the team overall. Correct those issues, and we have a COY candidate. Let’s face it, with Bibby gone, and Teague forcing him to reconsider his bias against him, we just might end up with something special anyway.

NIREMETAL-I don’t think the Hawks, as currently constructed, can reasonably expect to increase it’s chances of getting to the FT line. We just don’t have players that consistently finish strong enough to consistently draw fouls. While JSmoove and Horford are our 2 best inside scorers, neither consistently finishes strong at the rim, and they both rely at lot on jump shooting.

JJ also has difficulty finishing strong at the rim, although he has the size and height, he lacks the athleticism to do so. Marvin actually does a better job of drawing fouls going to the rim than anyone else, but he doesn’t do it often. We have players that are very effective scoring consistently in the lane, but not at the rim.

If we continue playing solid overall DEF, and consistently play uptempo, fast breaking OFF, then getting to the FT line more often won’t really matter. Do you remember the numerous fouls Portland committed while trying to stop us from finishing fastbreaks?

Having said all of that, the ability to play sound half court OFF, and getting to the FT line, is definitely a big advantage in the playoffs.

vava74

March 16th, 2011
1:42 pm

I’ve just finished watching the game and I must say that although it was relieving to watch such an easy win (even post mortem voyeurism can have some emotion if the game is tight) it left me a bit apprehensive for tonight.

This was basically a scrimmage since the Bucks – with the exception of Bogut and Delfino – simply never left Wisconsin.

It was a game where all our jumpshots simply went in, which makes it a bad formula for next matches, specially since our guys seem to lose focus quite quickly after easy wins and fail to show up.

We did show some defensive consistency with Teague doing a good job at keeping Jennings uncomfortable right from the start (by the way, he was horrible and seems to be struggling to recover from his injury) but… I don’t know, I feel weary about tonight.

I wish we could finish this home stand 6-0…

Even Jamal was active defensively.

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
1:47 pm

I was a little surprised to receive an email this morning from the ASG Sales team that they still have Heat tickets available for Friday evening. The Heat… on a Friday evening? Wow.

Beer me (on sunday)

March 16th, 2011
3:10 pm

This one is to Georgia and alcohol on sundays!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TOM_UuQzc0

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
3:57 pm

Vava,

I will be surprised if JJ has 2 good games in a row.

Something else I will be watching for is if the hawks are behind, and teague is not playing as solid as he did the last 2 games…does LD stick with him? Or does he go to Jamal at backup PG?

AJ,

I assume hawks fans will boo Lebron and Wade, but will they boo Bibby? I think bibby should be cheered before the game starts. But once the game starts, he is a heat and should be booed.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 16th, 2011
4:27 pm

Bibby should be cheered, at least during player intros. He was a waste of space this year but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t deserve to be appreciated for helping lift this team from the lottery into the playoffs. Whether or not he actually will be cheered, though, is anyone’s guess.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 16th, 2011
4:31 pm

“How about this – they also got a beat down from Tyler Hansbrough, who was the game-high man. That’s right. Dude led all scorers with 30 points.”

Hansbrough beasted on them when they played at MSG last week too. Ever since they fired their old coach, who refused to play him, he’s gotten more playing time and has produced accordingly.

Funny how that works, huh?

The Game Has Changed

March 16th, 2011
5:32 pm

@Najeh Davenpoop- I disagree with you saying Bibby was a waste of space this year. Maybe Marvin or Za Za. Bibby conducted himself well dealing with this new system. Its just not good for our team. Fans such as myself really know his value the last three years.

The Game Has Changed

March 16th, 2011
5:38 pm

O’Brien-Its late in the season. LD has to find a solid rotation and stick to it. Teague and Hinrich are backups. So LD has to decide which backup is the starter.

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
5:42 pm

Hansbrough was hurt for a good chunk of the season (as I recall). And I thought McRoberts had been playing well for them earlier as well.

Bibby won’t be cheered (unfortunately). I think the widely held opinion is that he could have morphed into Russell Westbrook but opted for a slightly better version of Ty Lue. So I expect him to get very little love from the fans.

The Game Has Changed

March 16th, 2011
5:45 pm

Astro Joe- Those tickets were for standing room only

Sautee

March 16th, 2011
6:22 pm

vava,

“Not only D’Antoni is not an ace-HC but also ‘Melo is also a bit on the overrated side (look at Denver’s records since his departure).”

Not saying that Melo is not overrated, BUT, because NY gave up so much, Denver is overall much deeper and more talented than they were with Melo. Therefore I don’t think that Denver’s post Melo record is a reflection of whether or not he’s overrated. They just have more and better parts.

Conversely NY is not as good, even with Melo and Billups, because they are now a thin team, and Melo doesn’t even give them the defense that Chandler did.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 16th, 2011
7:15 pm

I don’t disagree that Melo has historically been a subpar defender, but from what I’ve seen of the post-trade Knicks, the defensive weak link is Chauncey Billups, not Melo. When Toney Douglas plays, that team looks very good defensively.

vava74

March 16th, 2011
7:24 pm

I am not watching the game. 8 shots by Josh, nearly all from the perimeter?

I knew that our mind set would be wrong and LD is not man enough to bench him.

Now he will put in Jamal to try to get us more points and outscore DEN.

Down by 15 by mid second.

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
7:31 pm

I think LD benched Josh not because he went 1-8 in the first 6 minutes, but because at that rate (assuming he plays 36 minutes), he would take 48 shots in the game. But hey, he learned every play for every position in LD’s scheme.

vava, yeah, about half of those FGAs were bad shots. Meanwhile, he was being putplayed by Kenyon Martin… who played with Truck Robinson.

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
7:35 pm

Hinrich is so silly… he keeps thinking that Josh will pass him the ball after getting a defensive rebound. Silly rabbit.

vava74

March 16th, 2011
7:46 pm

Glad that I was wrong… things are improving… minus Josh’s shots and we would up by 20…

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
7:49 pm

Im glad LD realized Jamal at backup PG was leading to penetration, so he brought Hinrich back in. Hawks are so much better defensively with teague or Kirk at point guard

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
7:52 pm

And it frees Jamal to be a jump shooter. Meanwhile, Teague seems to be in full Royal Ivey mode tonight.

vava74

March 16th, 2011
7:55 pm

OK, take Jamal out please. He has gone completely rogue now.

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
7:59 pm

Why do the hawks insist on goin to JJ almost every time down?

And Josh is 0-9 from the perimeter, 3-3 in the paint.

vava74

March 16th, 2011
8:01 pm

oh brother… JJ is back to his cross-eyed form, the team has gone jump shot happy with a bad case of Jamalitis…

unless things change dramatically and very very soon, things will go south really quick.

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
8:03 pm

Joe had taken only 2 shots prior to that recent run… LD probably reminded the team that allowing Joe to get some touches may be a decent idea. Same for Al. 7 FGAs between those two is poor shot management.

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
8:04 pm

I hate those fouls. Foul him hard al! And once again, hawks go to JJ. WHY?

niremetal

March 16th, 2011
8:06 pm

O’B,

JJ only has 6 attempts so far tonight. Should he not get the ball the rest of the game? Again, I just don’t get your mentality of “Joe was bad early. Therefore Joe will be bad the whole game. And everyone should realize that.”

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
8:12 pm

I hope that Al and Joe get the VAST majority of shots to start the 3rd quarter. The first half shot distribution is utterly ridiculous and screams of selfish play and poor decision-making.

vava74

March 16th, 2011
8:14 pm

nire,

I disagree, the way that JJ got stuffed/air balled twice in the paint and missed the two 3 pointers is a clear sign that he is not feeling it.

Whenever JJ starts like this he RARELY gets it going, in particular lately.

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
8:14 pm

Al and Joe need to get the vast majority of touches to start the second half. And I hope that he is riding these guys for the first half shot distribution… it was embarassing.

niremetal

March 16th, 2011
8:20 pm

Vava,

Lately, maybe. Over his career, no. For most of career, he has been a better second half scorer than first half. In ‘08-’09, the most recent year for which 82games breaks it down, he averaged 4.9ppg in the first quarter, 4.5ppg in the second, 6.2 in the third, and 6.2 in the fourth.

JJ’s pattern during most of his career was to take it a bit easy early on and then be more aggressive (often to the point of dominating the ball) in the second half. Is it more likely that JJ will have a bad second half after he’s had a bad first half? Yeah, ok. But what do we expect JJ to do on nights where he’s not feeling? Just not touch the ball? Tell the coach “take me out?” What All-Star do you know who does that?

niremetal

March 16th, 2011
8:21 pm

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
8:23 pm

nire,

I’m not saying dont go to him. But the Hawks went to him like 3 out of 4 possessions. i think they should do a better job mixing it up…

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
8:24 pm

OB, I’m guessing that LD reminded the team that Joe needed to “get his”. Heck, everyone else was taking theres.

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
8:25 pm

And what do you know. JJ is 0-4 from 3’s (although one was with the shot clock running down). And his 3’s have not even been close.

But hey, why should I expect him to stop taking 3’s for the rest of this game, despite being 1-7 overall, and 0-4 from 3…

niremetal

March 16th, 2011
8:26 pm

Really, no one looks good offensively tonight, Zaza’s hustle points notwithstanding.

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
8:26 pm

AJ,

Good point. Hawks need to run the ball, but they can’t seem to get the running game going.

Meanwhile, the team is 1-9 from 3. Ouch.

And to think Hawks once led by 12.

Hawks need to go to Al more, and Joe less (imo)

niremetal

March 16th, 2011
8:26 pm

O’B,

Name me an All-Star who does that. I’ll wait.

niremetal

March 16th, 2011
8:27 pm

Hell, name me a double-digit scoring guard who does that.

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
8:27 pm

nire,

I’m not singling out JJ. I’m singling out the all-stars who dont do it :smile:

vava74

March 16th, 2011
8:27 pm

nire,

the issue is now that JJ us taking it slowly, pacing himself, being team oriented.

the issue is that his body language looks like crap and is in line with all the recent games in which he played poorly.

I am developing a theory that JJ is veeeeeery sensitive to pet hatreds and I am under the impression that his game tonight is a direct consequence of Smoove’s horrible shot selection: it puts him off the same way I believe that Bibby and Jamal also did/does (for their respective reasons).

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
8:28 pm

OB, Joe wasn’t the guy with 10 FGAs in the first 18 minutes of the game.

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
8:30 pm

And what do you know. JJ with an assist to Hinrich for 3, and then JJ makes a 3 :smile:

niremetal

March 16th, 2011
8:33 pm

Vava,

You may be right. If that’s the case, all the more reason that the core needs more shaking. And also JJ needs to grow the eff up. Wade does the same thing in Miami, and it’s one of the reasons I don’t like him. When his teammates were going rogue and sucking at it, his body language would just be awful.

niremetal

March 16th, 2011
8:35 pm

The Nuggets are playing very, very physically. It’s clearly rattled the Hawks.

niremetal

March 16th, 2011
8:35 pm

That also may be why the guys who look the least-bad have been Hinrich and Zaza.

niremetal

March 16th, 2011
8:38 pm

Something else I’ve noticed though – since the trade, Jamal’s defensive effort has improved noticeably. Maybe he saw the writing on the wall.

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
8:39 pm

I don’t think Joe nor Al should go well into the 2nd quarter before getting their 3rd or 4th FGA. If Joe was bent out of shape, it wasn’t because his teammates were super hot.

Funny, in previous years when the young bigs complained about not getting the ball, no one seemed to mind. Tonight, one young big took 5x more shots than the other.

vava74

March 16th, 2011
8:41 pm

nire,

let’s hope that you are right and I am wrong… he seems to be heating up a bit.

I would pray, but I am an atheist…

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
8:43 pm

I like what we are getting from ZaZa tonight.

Its funny to hear LD talk about Josh establishing himself inside first, but that never seems to happen.

And I agree that Jamal’s effort on D seems to have improved after the trade.

Ok AJ, over or under…19.5 points scored by the Hawks in the 4th.

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
8:44 pm

He missed but that was the type of aggressive shot attempt you have to live withby Marvin… if you want him to stop the disappearing acts and show some aggression.

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
8:46 pm

OB, under… they are completely out-of-synch in this game. The quotes later will be something like “we settled, we never found our rhythm, we didn’t share the ball”… that nonsense.

vava74

March 16th, 2011
8:49 pm

Nothing short from a major revolution on how we are playing will save us.

LD has gone back to Jamal at the PG slot.

The result has been more or less the same as usual: discombobulated offense.

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
8:51 pm

I havent looked at any of the numbers, but my eye test tells me that when Josh struggles with his jumper, he is more likely to struggle defensively (or with fouls)…

Hawks cut the lead to 5. We need one more stop, and a bucket…

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
8:53 pm

vava,

Ask…and ye shall receive.

Hawks cut the lead to 5. We need one more stop, and a bucket….

And what do you know. A stop…and a bucket :smile:

AJ,

Hawks are well on their way to over…

vava74

March 16th, 2011
8:54 pm

horrible shot by Jamal… thank god Zaza is on tonight

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
8:54 pm

And after scoring 28 points in the first half of yesterday’s game, Joe may have follishly expected to be fed and fanned to start this game.

vava74

March 16th, 2011
8:56 pm

I hope that I am wrong but when JJ comes in, I think he will miss a couple of shots and the game will go away…

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
9:00 pm

The game may already be gone. 8 point deficit.

vava74

March 16th, 2011
9:00 pm

we never reached that point :-D

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
9:01 pm

JJ has 10 on the shot clock, with NeNe on him. What does he do? Take a jumper. Doesnt anybody know how to drive anymore?

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
9:01 pm

Bad settle shot… got to take nene off the dribble.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 16th, 2011
9:02 pm

Smoove posts up, draws a double team, kicks out to an open Joe… who holds the ball long enough for the Nuggets to reset, gets Nene matched up on him, and shoots over him instead of driving on him.

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
9:04 pm

No defensive adjustments so far.

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
9:05 pm

AJ, Najeh,

Great minds think alike. JJ settled for the jumper, when he should have looked for the drive.

And we pay the price for when LD feels forced to go offense for defense.

Jamal in the game…trickle down effect on defense…

Najeh Davenpoop

March 16th, 2011
9:07 pm

That wasn’t the first time he got the ball wide open, waited for the defense to reset, and settled for a jumper in this game. Nor was it the first time he’s done that this season either, for that matter. That, above all, is probably the most infuriating thing I ever see Joe doing. It’s not even the jumper that gets me as much as how he takes forever to make up his mind and completely negates the significance of Smoove (or anyone else for that matter) drawing the double team and allowing him to get open.

vava74

March 16th, 2011
9:07 pm

Jamal, as usual, as been exploited at will.

Another great LD performance with Jamal playing the later part of the 3rd quarter and the 4th at the PG slot.

I don’t have the stat, by I think we lost at least 80% of the games LD did that.

It’s that simple: Felton forces a scramble with Jamal always lost in the shuffle, we rotate poorly, and the Nuggets score comfortably.

vava74

March 16th, 2011
9:09 pm

Great effort Jamal!!! Way to go LD!!!

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
9:10 pm

Sometimes the Hawks play like my son’s YMCA team. Instead of moving and getting open to receive a pass from the man who has lost his dribble, they stand there with feet glued to the court and expect something good to happen.

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
9:10 pm

Najeh,

My theory is if JJ would go quicker when he gets those passes, the Hawks offense would be better. But more recently, he seems to pound pound pound, and then when the double comes, he pounds it a little more… before finally making the pass out of the double team.

I wish he would be more selective with his passes out of the double team…and with the shots he gets when somebody else gets double teamed…

And why can’t LD get Josh to stop those jumpers?

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
9:11 pm

Looks like less than 10K in the arena tonight.

niremetal

March 16th, 2011
9:11 pm

I blame O’Brien’s 8:53.

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
9:13 pm

Next time you see all of that Joe pounding, see if any of his teammates are moving to get in position to receive a pass.

niremetal

March 16th, 2011
9:14 pm

We finally had a decent offensive quarter at least in terms of points on the board, but we forgot to defend. *sigh*

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
9:14 pm

What’s up with our starting backcourt getting so little second half love from their head coach?

Najeh Davenpoop

March 16th, 2011
9:15 pm

Also, if Al would play with Nene’s mentality, dude would be averaging 20 and 10 easily.

Melvin

March 16th, 2011
9:16 pm

Terrible effort by the Hawks tonight…

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
9:16 pm

Teague = Cinderfella! I think midnight struck immediately after the Portland game and no one told LD.

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
9:17 pm

*Should have said “I wish he was more decisive”

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
9:20 pm

nire,

He giveth, and he taketh away :smile:

AJ,

And the same thing happened last year when Woody would run his ISOs. Players just stood around, with poor movement, and poor spacing. When will they learn…

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
9:25 pm

It looks like Hinrich left with around 5:00 left in the 3rd quarter and was never heard from again despite the Denver backcourt having their way offensively in the 4th. What’s up with that? Did he break his goggles or something? Did LD forget about the trade and thought Bibby was sitting over there?

Najeh Davenpoop

March 16th, 2011
9:26 pm

“Did LD forget about the trade and thought Bibby was sitting over there?”

To be completely honest, I think LD does forget that he has certain players on his team at times. I can’t think of any other explanation for his substitution patterns that makes more sense. I really do think he forgot he had Hinrich (and forgot that Hinrich played very well in the first half).

Najeh Davenpoop

March 16th, 2011
9:27 pm

“Teague = Cinderfella! I think midnight struck immediately after the Portland game and no one told LD.”

He didn’t play well against the Nuggets at Denver either. In every other game since the trade he has been outstanding defensively even if he was inconsistent offensively; against the Nuggets, he’s only been OK.

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
9:32 pm

LD’s comments (I’m guessing)…

1) We took too many jumpers
2) We didnt play tough enough
3) We didnt play with the type of defense we needed…

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
9:36 pm

Najeh, with Hinrich here, I’m not sure that Teague can continue to start and be a non-factor on offense (as he was last night and tonight). I could see the next experiment being replacing Teague with Damien. Which leads to an interesting diemma… do you like LD tinkering with the line-up and rotations this late in the season or do you give him props for continuing to tinker? There is a fine-line either way… not a clear cut answer.

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
9:41 pm

LD said “we were being seduced into taking a lot of quick, long shots in the first quarter”. Kind of like the serpent tempting Eve with the apple.

“Josh, don’t you like the way the net sounds when you hit those pretty rainbow shots? Isn’t it lovely? Don’t you want to hear that beautiful string music? Shoot me, Josh, make me sing the lovely string music you so like to hear. Shoot me Josh, shoot me from back here.”

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
9:41 pm

Charles barkley always says “You dont live and die by the jumper. You only die by the jumper”.

Sometimes, the hawks just dont play smart.

AJ,

I think Teague can continue starting. However, if his struggles on offense are an issue, then LD can make a quick switch, and take him out.

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
9:42 pm

And dont forget Josh’s guy (whatever his name is), who would text Josh and tell him “you dont need anybody’s approval”

Najeh Davenpoop

March 16th, 2011
9:43 pm

Oh yeah, and as a frequent and vocal detractor of Zaza, it wouldn’t be right for me to not acknowledge the excellent game he had in this one. Played within his limits, crashed the boards, and when he got involved in the offense he did so confidently. The Hawks’ defense still suffers when he’s in the game since he can’t contest shots at the rim at all (and this problem was compounded by Smoove’s foul trouble limiting his aggressiveness on defense) but it’s good to see Zaza playing this way.

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
9:44 pm

Oops, I screwed up that previous post. Should LD settle on his rotations and get guys used to a certain combination/role or should he continue to tinker? Pros and cons both ways. IMO, he can continue to tinker until there are about 10-12 games left, after that he needs to leave it alone and let guys get used to whatever role they will play and the guys who will likely be on the floor with them. But I think he has to give them at least 10 games to adapt.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 16th, 2011
9:47 pm

“do you like LD tinkering with the line-up and rotations this late in the season or do you give him props for continuing to tinker? ”

I’m not really in the mood to give LD props for anything, but it’s not like the Hawks have really great on-court chemistry right now that would be disrupted by ongoing tinkering.

As far as this particular lineup is concerned, I’d rather give it a few more games to see how effective it can be before deciding whether or not to make a switch. With that said, the Hawks really don’t do enough to take advantage of the quickness of this back court. To me, it is a damn shame that this team doesn’t run pick and rolls. They still run the offense as if Bibby was playing point guard. Kirk and especially Teague should be coming off screens with a full head of steam attacking the hoop the way Lawson and Felton were doing for the Nuggets.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 16th, 2011
9:52 pm

And it also bears mentioning that the key stretch the Nuggets used to blow this game open came when neither member of the starting back court was in the game, so I don’t think this game says a whole lot about the effectiveness of this back court.

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
9:57 pm

Najeh, assumning that LD didn’t forget about Hinrich & Teague, not having them in the game during that drucial time does speak to their “forecasted” effectiveness in that situation. I mean a head coach plays the guys who will most likely give him what he needs and when he needs it, right? Ultimately, he didn’t trust either of his starters to help him close a game that at one point was a 4 point deficit. Isn’t that significant?

niremetal

March 16th, 2011
10:00 pm

LD’s rotations tonight were just bizarre. Why Teague and especially Hinrich didn’t make an appearance in the 4th quarter is beyond me. They were shredding us from the perimeter and we had Jamal at PG.

Hinrich was one of the few guys who actually looked decent on both ends through the first three quarters (Zaza and Marvin were the others). Why was he suddenly riding the pine down the stretch?

And Al and JJ treated the ball like it was a hot potato today. If our All-Stars aren’t being aggressive, we don’t have much of a chance.

niremetal

March 16th, 2011
10:01 pm

I mean, when Josh and Jamal are the only guy on the team who want to take shots, this is what’ll happen.

But seriously, LD. WHERE THE HELL WAS HINRICH IN THE 4TH?

Najeh Davenpoop

March 16th, 2011
10:04 pm

“I mean a head coach plays the guys who will most likely give him what he needs and when he needs it, right? Ultimately, he didn’t trust either of his starters to help him close a game that at one point was a 4 point deficit. Isn’t that significant?”

I think it’s significant in that it shows just how poor LD is at “forecasting” effectiveness of his players and his various lineups. If after 58 games he still doesn’t realize that Jamal at point guard is a recipe for disaster and Jamal matched up on any key opposing player defensively is a recipe for disaster, I don’t even know what to say.

I can understand not playing Teague in crunch time in this game, since he wasn’t very good offensively and only intermittently successful defensively when he was playing early in the game. But not having Kirk on the floor in the late 3rd/early 4th was just idiotic.

niremetal

March 16th, 2011
10:15 pm

I’ve been lax about this the past few weeks – didn’t post an update after the last 4 games. Somewhat fortunate, because it would have seemed like I was piling on. It was by far his worst stretch of the season. Here’s a cumulative Josh’s jumpers watch update:

vs. LAL: 3-8 (2-4 on 3s)
vs. Chi: 1-9 (0-2 on 3s)
vs. Por: 1-6 (1-2 on 3s)
vs. Mil: 2-6 (0-2 on 3s)
vs. Den: 0-7 (0-1 on 3s)

Total: 7-36 (3-11 on 3s)
FG%: .194
eFG%: .236
eFG% vs. season avg: -.205
vs. ’09-’10 avg: -.049
————————————————————–
His jumper has improved, but not enough to justify the drastic shift toward jumpers that he’s made this year. That drastic shift is the reason I’ve been keeping track of his jumpers. Until this update, I don’t think he ever had a 3-game stretch where he dipped below his eFG% on jumpers from last year.

To his credit, he actually HAS improved his jumper from last year to this year. But he clearly is still way, way more effective inside. Over the past 5 games, he was 20 for 30 (.667) on non-jumpers. That’s even better than he usually does inside (.610 this year).

Josh’s strength, explosiveness, and leaping ability makes him a nightmare in the paint. If Josh made his living in the paint, he’d be an All-Star with no difficulty. I can’t say that about ANY other player on the team. He doesn’t need to keep improving his jumper. He needs to focus on what he does best, not on improving the things he doesn’t do best.

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
10:16 pm

Interesting discussion. We often talk about “finishing” being ,more important than starting. And we typically say that in he context of trusting that the coach will finish with the players best suited to help deliver a victory. If you can’t trust the head coach to have the right 5 guys on the floor to help overcome a 4 point deficit (with a fair amount of time left in the game), then how do you trust some of the earlier line-up decisions (including who starts)?

I agree that Hinrich should have been in there (as I said immediately when the game ended). I’ll go so far as to say that the current way LD is utilizing Hinrich seems like a complete waste. When Woody got Bibby, he pretty much gave him the keys to the team from the first day. I think LD should have done the same, instead he seemingly has maintained his personal choke-hold on he offense. Starting Teague at PG hasn’t loosen LD’s grip on the offense, it only reinforces it (as Teague is clearly not ready to assume that responsibility). So Hinrich becomes a smaller version of Damien Wilkins… which we seemingly had in Mo Evans. Seriously, is the Teague-Hinrich backcourt that much different than what a Teague-Evans backcourt would have delivered?

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
10:20 pm

He needs to focus on what he does best, not on improving the things he doesn’t do best. Amen. And contrary to the previous sentiment of “NBA players make money by diversifying their games”. While both may be true, I’m selfishly interested in what makes the team better.

Big Ray

March 16th, 2011
10:22 pm

Ken Strickland ,

LOL. Trust me, I can’t possibly make you look anti-Drew. I’m picking at you because if I had a couple dollars for every post I’ve seen you type up where the name Larry Drew and the capitalized words “STUBBORN STUPIDIDY” appear, I’d have enough money to take my wife to the movies at least twice this weekend. But I digress…

It’s not like you are the only one who has issues with LD. You’re not, by far. But yours are quite well documented, I assure you. Maybe even more than you realize. But, I’ll stop poking at you because you keep taking it personally. Peace…

Najeh Davenpoop

March 16th, 2011
10:27 pm

“So Hinrich becomes a smaller version of Damien Wilkins… which we seemingly had in Mo Evans. Seriously, is the Teague-Hinrich backcourt that much different than what a Teague-Evans backcourt would have delivered?”

Mo Evans was nowhere near as good defensively as either Kirk or Damien.

O'Brien

March 16th, 2011
10:32 pm

I havent looked at the numbers, but vava has been saying most of the year that more often than not, there are key shifts in momentum when Jamal plays backup PG late 3rd quarter and for extended minutes into the 4th.

I dont think LD knows how to maximize the effectiveness of his players. This may be too much to expect of any HC, but…

1) LD needs to limit Jamal minutes some more
2) Play Kirk more in the 4th
3) Find a way to get Josh to cut down his jumpers (especially early in the game)
4) Get JJ to be more decisive with the ball
5) Find a way to get Al more touches in games like this.

Is that too much to ask…

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
10:33 pm

Najeh, we most often saw Mo guarding SFs and Hinrich guarding PGs. If both were assigned SGs (as Hinrich is when he starts in this current line-up) I don’t think the difference is that significant. Let me put it this way, would you trade JC2 and a 1st round pick for that differential between Hinrich guarding a SG and Evans (or WIlkins for that matters) guarding a SG? I wouldn’t even give it a second of consideration. I need Hinrich to play and guard the PG position for 30+ minutes to make that trade.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 16th, 2011
10:52 pm

“Let me put it this way, would you trade JC2 and a 1st round pick for that differential between Hinrich guarding a SG and Evans (or WIlkins for that matters) guarding a SG? I wouldn’t even give it a second of consideration. I need Hinrich to play and guard the PG position for 30+ minutes to make that trade.”

I definitely think Kirk is an upgrade in every way shape and form from what the Hawks had before, he was without question the best player involved in that trade, and his acquisition makes the Hawks better right now. It’s also worth mentioning that Kirk has defended 2-guards very well throughout his career despite his height disadvantage, most notably D-Wade in the playoffs. So I think it’s more than just a marginal upgrade to have him defending 2 guards than Mo.

If you’re going to take into account what the Hawks gave up to get him, though, the discussion changes completely. From that point of view, you could make the argument that the Kirk trade wasn’t worth it even if he does play 30+ minutes at point guard, since the Hawks seem to be headed for a first round playoff exit with or without him.

Your original point, that Kirk is not being utilized properly, is still well taken. For that matter, neither is Teague. Both those players should be coming off screens and attacking the way Felton and Lawson do. I know Kirk isn’t the blur that either of those players are, but he’s still plenty quick enough and crafty enough with the ball that getting him moving toward the basket would open up opportunities for assists for him.

These Hawks have bigger issues, though, and the indecision on how to use Kirk is pretty far down the list as far as I’m concerned.

Astro Joe

March 16th, 2011
11:07 pm

Well I predicted 48 regular season wins and a first round loss at the beginning of the year. I’m in pretty good shape with less than 15 games left.

Najeh, we have Hinrich for about 105 regular season games. I think we could have upgraded the defense at SG for a lesser price than JC2 & a 1st round pick. I thought that we were acquiring a starting PG for the next 105 games. Someone who could settle the team down in half-courts sets. Someone capable of playing 30 effective minutes on both ends of the court. A bonafide starter and finisher. And honestly, someone who could help establish Horford as the team’s leader (on and off the court). IMO, Al could use another serious-minded, hard-hat, team-above-self guy to help him lead by example. I thought Hinrich would be that guy. LD hasn’t “annointed” Hinrich in the way I thought he would/should. And I do think that is a major issue with this team.

But the number 1 issue (IMO) is that our head coach has seemingly lost the battle of wills with Josh and I fear that the team will continue to spiral as a result.

Big Ray

March 16th, 2011
11:33 pm

New blog up. Same story. See ya there…