Atlanta hawks: Is disarray here to stay?

A tale of three team captains 

When the Hawks lose, you can ask Joe Johnson what happened. He is likely to tell you he doesn’t know. You can ask Al Horford. He’ll likely tell you what the problem was, and all but name who was responsible for it. You can also ask Josh Smith. He’ll tell you that the team will get their heads together, they are a tight knit group, and everything will be okay. Is any of this confidence inspiring? Why are they all saying different things?

Let us get one thing out on the table, and it is something that some of you/us have already been saying since the beginning of the season. It was a mistake for Larry Drew to name three team captains. Or do you disagree? Let’s extend that even further – it was a mistake to name Josh Smith as a team captain. Perhaps you disagree more vehemently with this than the first assertion. Perhaps not. Either way, can anybody prove this was a successful venture or even a good idea? These three team captains don’t think alike. They don’t play alike. They don’t react alike. In fact, I’m feeling a bit hard-pressed to come up with something that they have in common at all. It seems that Larry Drew tried to force this team into forming its own locker room and on-court leadership. But his idea of putting three guys into such a position resulted in what looks like more confusion, which has done nothing to increase leadership. Three guys, one position. One seems like he never really felt destined to be a leader, and maybe he should have had that burden thrown on him. Another doesn’t know how to follow, so how can he lead? The third can’t lead if others won’t follow. How was this supposed to work again?

From the Sidelines

Mike Woodson’s tactics, leadership, and his overall body of work was questioned, and it led to him parting ways with the Hawks. General Manager Rick Sund then proclaimed that the Hawks needed to “hear a different voice.” So, he brought them (perhaps at the behest of his host of bosses) a familiar voice and placed that voice in the big chair. Perhaps the results have spoken for themselves. You hear a familiar but previously quiet voice saying the same things the old voice used to say. It seems the “different” voice begins to show signs of strain and frustration. The different voice seems to have given in. The different voice doesn’t know what to do. The different voice screams accountability, but can’t follow through. The different voice…doesn’t seem so different after all. Of course, its not just about the voice.

Here is where one of Larry Drew’s biggest problems may be brewing: with Josh Smith. We used to not like it when Mike Woodson and Josh Smith got after each other. But, at least Woody got after him. And, Josh got after Woody. It wasn’t good. Josh doesn’t get after Drew. Why? Maybe because Drew doesn’t get after him.  Drew has  agreed to disagree with his team captain on how to play the game. Worse, he’s made this known through public quotes. How in the world can you get an entire team to listen to you when one of the team captains is allowed to disagree with you and do what he wants to do? That’s not to say that Josh isn’t a good player, or even a good person. He has shown more maturity (or at least it seems like it) in most areas, and has put up some pretty good numbers. But….can a team operate like this, when one of its best players is constantly at odds with the head coach on such basic things as when to take certain shots or when to let the point guard run the break?

Let me put this another way – if you can’t convince a team captain not to take long jumpers at the wrong times, then how can you convince the rest of the team to not do so? Just watch the games. See how many long jumpers are being taken, regardless of how unsuccessful that venture turns out to be. Then watch how many times Larry Drew talks about taking too many long jumpers after a loss. And, it’s not just Josh Smith by a long shot. It’s a bunch of guys. Unfortunately, Josh is a team captain, which puts things in a slightly different light.

This isn’t the only problem. Maybe this isn’t really a big problem. Maybe it is. What do you think?

Breaking in the new guys

The arrival of Kirk Hinrich really helped Atlanta on the defensive end, but as scores and fourth quarter numbers have indicated, that’s not all there is to the story. The problem with the offense is that this is where the leadership of this team (or lack thereof) really suffers. A guy like Hinrich knows how to play the game. How long before he becomes frustrated with the way the Hawks play? Everybody within the organization and the fan base can talk about Hinrich’s leadership and toughness until they are blue in the face. It won’t matter. Why? Because we have three team captains already. How is a guy like Hinrich to have a positive effect when all he can do is try to lead by example (something we’ve recognized as a good but incomplete form of leadership)? Can Hinrich even say anything in the locker room? Who will listen?

On the flip side of the coin, Hilton Armstrong has it easier than his backcourt teammate. All he has to do is provide energy, defend the rim and the paint, and grab some rebounds. Maybe even set some screens on offense and be ready to score at the rim if he actually receives the ball. Of course, Armstrong can’t be certain of his role, as neither can Zaza Pachulia (who is very playing-time sensitive) or Jason Collins. Drew doesn’t seem to know what he wants to do with his bench or his frontcourt some days.

More confusion, more disarray. 

If Larry Drew and the Hawks aren’t careful, they’ll stunt their own internal growth.

The Final Word….

……comes from General Manager Rick Sund. The normally quiet Sund stated before the deadline that the onus was on this team to prove who they were and what they were capable of. He said that this team would show itself and be judged on what they did through the final stretch of the season, and in the playoffs. By saying this, Sund also put the burden on himself and his bosses. After all, if the proof is in what this team does, and the team falls below expectations, or simply last year’s accomplishments, then who else can be responsible for the final product?

Sund says this core is at the witness stand. He’s right. And after they testify, he’ll be going to the stand next. This summer, in fact.

Call it Now

Hope springs eternal, but its not the offseason yet. Forget gaining ground for now, can the Hawks even maintain their current position? Is this just a late season rut, or is the writing on the wall? If patterns hold where they are, the Hawks face the Magic in round 1 of the playoffs? Can they survive that?

Your call…

 

Big Ray, Hawks Fan Nest

286 comments Add your comment

E43

March 7th, 2011
11:19 pm

W.R.Terrell

March 7th, 2011
11:24 pm

The “SOFT’S” will not make the playoffs. New York will definitely take over the 5th position and guess what…Philly is lurking in the shadows. Play the young fellas and prepare for next year and get rid of “SMOOVE”. Talent or no talent he’s a cancer that cannot be remedied. Send Marvin own, he has no heart and plays to soft to be of help to any team. Jamal has gone crazy, LD told him to be more aggressive but I doubt if that means more turnovers. We all know we are stuck with ISO, no one is gonna jump on his contract. Let Zsa Zsa go, he cries too much. TIME TO REBUILD because we have a house of cards and that means get rid of LD too. He is to scared to bench that “smoove” person and he really needs to for the rest of the season, that way some owners may forget how dumb he really plays and offer up a trade.

SteveW

March 7th, 2011
11:38 pm

Big Ray – Thanks. Can’t say that I disagree with any of that.

doc

March 7th, 2011
11:45 pm

nice big ray. this might be the crux of the matter buried deeply within and that which i am concerned the most about:

The different voice doesn’t know what to do.

really the leader has to be the coach, is he leading?

atlienforlife

March 7th, 2011
11:59 pm

The problem is not Josh smith; if anyone watches the games (& I watch them all), the hawks are a completely different teams when he doesn’t play. Team run layup drills on the hawks in those games. The problem is larry drew thinks he’s an offensive genius and has totally slowed down the hawks, wanting to set up some type of play every time down the floor. Consequently; that leads to all the long shots, because the roster isn’t built to be a half court team. Furthermore; I always thought joe johnson was a decent player, but he is playing no where near as well as he was last year (and that’s not saying much).

E43

March 8th, 2011
12:03 am

my second “first honorable award” I should simply not take this opportunity to send a shout out to my mama, daddy, grandpa. grandma, brothers and sisters or my high school coach even though I sill kind of sent them a shout out.

My call/view is that this is an “I TOLD YOU SO” league.Everybody wants to be right and when they are they will flex their muscles, talk the talk and walk with their chests out. Next thing you know is that there’s a lot of testosterone in the air/hurt feeling and no one wants to admit that they were wrong. I mean- whatever happened to the people that said the heat would win 70+games. Furthermore, those that said boston didnt have the youth to make it to the finals? They wont admit they were wrong but will move on to the very next thing.

As for the hawks. we made the trade it helped but now were back to complaining. even if we had a lineup of Gasol Horford Smith JJ and CP3 There will always be room to complain. Just ask the three kings who probably can still win an NBA championship and the eastern conference.

atlienforlife

March 8th, 2011
12:04 am

Not to mention jamal crawford; I don’t know what’s happened to his game. He looks lost out there most games this year, I think is contract is on his mind to much. The hawks should have traded him when his value was still high. Now they are either gonna lose him to free agency for nothing, or pay to much for a player that is one dimesional. If he is not scoring, he cannot help the team any other way.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 8th, 2011
12:09 am

“This is a better team than last year? How so? Not being sarcastic, just asking. I think we have better potential than last year. I haven’t gotten much further than that, I must confess. ”

They play better defense at the point guard position, they use the bench better, and they share the ball better. The last two, at least, have been the case for most of the season, and the first has been the case since the Hinrich trade. I think that sets the Hawks up better for the playoffs. I gotta admit, though, if they continue to have games like the one against the Knicks, I’m probably going to be switching sides on that pretty soon.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 8th, 2011
12:18 am

I haven’t been inside an NBA locker room, so I don’t really even know how significant the idea of team captains is at that level. It seems to me that if Kirk or Jamal or someone else felt like leading, not having a C on his locker wouldn’t stop him from doing so. But I think the broader point that this team lacks consistent leadership from either players or coaches is a good one.

Reality Time

March 8th, 2011
12:20 am

No ownership, no coaching and the wrong players. That’s what is wrong the the Hawks. IF they make the playoffs, you can be guaranteed they will not make it past the frist series.
During the off season, the Hawks need to tear this team apart and rebuild. Josh Smith is not a winner. Its all about him and his dunk and his three point shots. He is a JOKE!
This team is a laughing stock and reflects poorly on Atlanta. If ownership is not committed on rebuilding, please take the team somewhere else. I am so sick of watching the same ole, same ole, season after season.
These guys are over-paid and have no clue how to play as a team. The upcoming playoffs will prove it again, IF they make it.
Come on….Atlanta deserves better. Move them somewhere else.

E43

March 8th, 2011
12:24 am

WOW new york scored 131 against Utah. They must have gone back to their 3ball happy ways.

Mike is back

March 8th, 2011
1:28 am

Big Ray, granted it may have been a mistake…to anoint Josh a leader…but Josh ain’t your number one option…neither is Josh your number two option on the team…however he remains an enigma none the lease.

The problem with this theory is…it’s two guys that have a green light no matter what…BTW it use to be three…before Bibby departure.

No matter what…how do you keep a guy like Josh from taking jump shots…that part is easy…make him the number option for stored procedures.

At the very lease…the number two option is…insure that all your plays are so where around the rack…problem is…The Hawks have two ole school coaches that rely too heavily on the veterans play…Dam the torpedoes go with vet!!!

Despite their short coming…the Coaches are willing to night and night out roll the dice with the vets…even if they are a wash-outs. What kind of leadership is that…I can still remember Woody saying we gotta get JJ going…News flash…JJ is one of the highest paid player in the league…and he still hasn’t grasp the Big picture…yet.

WTF is it going to take…JJ…even with a new coach…I still cain’t remembering hearing we gotta get josh going…lets face it…this team is evolved around offense…so why is anybody surprised…we are struggling on defense…that’s on the coach…dude is over his head…he made Woody seem dated…now it’s him

Let me ask you this…when JJ and Jamal shot is not falling…and they are throwing up brick after brick…is that part of the culture??????????????????

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeease don’t waste your time trading JOSH … until U CAN ADEQUATELY ANSWER THIS QUESTION…DID I MENTION WORD Wait or patient…cus that is it!!!!

RED ZONE 1

March 8th, 2011
1:41 am

Here’s the simple math on making the hawks contenders. Trade Josh Smith for Javale Mcgee ( a young athletic 7 ft center who fits the teams dynamics) and a 1st rd pick or Jordan Crawford. Trade Kirk for Phili’s Louis Williams (lighting fast, defends and pushes, with better numbers and more upside), he and Teague can battle for the starting job. Trade the pick to Denver for Wilson Chandler or move Joe to the 3 and start Jordan Crawford at the 2. Now Marvin moves to the bench where he seems more comfortable as a 1st or 2nd option.

Ed

March 8th, 2011
3:23 am

Gotta tip my hat to ya Ray…you really hit the nail on the head in regards to Josh being a team captain and defiant of LD’s requests. The only way you can win big in the NBA is for all five starters being on board, particularly the team leaders. Josh is reacting the way a kid does when the parents leave (Woody) and the babysitter is watching you (LD). Just counting the number of threes he hoisted last year compared to this one tells it all. Good stuff Ray…

Puzzled

March 8th, 2011
3:53 am

Enter your comments here

vava74

March 8th, 2011
4:32 am

Ray,

These days I only get flak from you :-D .

Most of you watch the games live, some even at the arena, and the emotion that goes with watching a game live is detrimental to an accurate analysis most of the time.

I have watched many games on league pass in the morning following the game and a pretty decent fraction of those games were losses.

I don’t think many of you would have the stomach to wake up at 5 or 6 am like I did to watch a Hawks loss under a magnifier as I did many times (yesterday was not the case, I did it during my very loose lunch break).

So, I really believe that having seen the game on league pass knowing the end result I was able to be really focused in detecting what went wrong and to qualify this loss against the Knicks as a loss which should not be put on the pile of “crap ATL performance” but on “damn, many things did not go our way type of loss”.

As for the captains and team leaders conversation, I agree with your overall assessment, however, this time, Horford was wrong and that does not bode well for his leadership skills either.

The problem against the Knicks was not lack of ball movement per se, it was lack of Horford showing up and playing like crap against Jared Jeffreys and Stoudemire, so I find it odd that instead of acknowledging that he brought literally nothing to the table he dices the team’s play.

Not good. He may be right 99 times out of 100 but not against the Knicks: he was shooting like cr*p and stop taking shots and ended up passing the ball like a hot potato to someone else with the shot clock winding down instead of driving and try to take it to the rack (for crying out loud, Stoudemire plays soft D and at some point he had already 2 fouls in the first half).

That happened in 5 or 6 possessions and 5 or 6 possessions in a game like this makes a win or a loss.

Big Ray

March 8th, 2011
5:58 am

Doc ,

True to a point. He has to establish a firm system and has to sell guys on it. I think Drew may actually be able to do that. I just don’t think he can do that here . There was a time when I thought he could. That time is long past.

Vava ,

If I don’t give you flak, you have no reason to stay honest. ;)

On Horford – I agree. He played badly. But I’ve seen the best in the game do the same thing, so there is only so much magnification that can go on. Look at some of the things Kobe has been criticized for, yet there he was hoisting the trophy at the end last year, and as likely to do it again this year. This is part of Horford’s learning curve. And whether or not he was wrong had little to do with it. Horford could have gone for 30 and 16 again, and we still could have lost. Just because he didn’t play well didn’t mean he wasn’t right about the others who didn’t play well.

Ed ,

Thanks. I hate to say what I did about Smoove, but he is both a part of the problem and a part of what makes this team experience as much success as it does.

Marcus

March 8th, 2011
6:29 am

We are kinda in no man’s land/”friend zone”:
Not sorry enough to get a lottery pick, not willing to spend enough to get quality depth if it takes us over the luxury tax threshold, and currently not mature enough to max. out the talent we have (player development included, e.g. Teague) and play with consistency.

I luv my Hawks but we are in a Groundhog Day situation until something really drastic happens.

Big Ray

March 8th, 2011
7:29 am

W.R. Terrell ,

There is a definite danger of losing the 5th seed to New York, who seems to be picking up some serious steam. Here’s a question, though: is that as bad as it could be? Seems to me that the worst we could do is drop all the way to the 8th seed, where we would face Boston, who will massacre us.

But what if we dropped to sixth or seventh, and faced either Chicago or Miami? Would that be a better matchup than Orlando, who seems like they will remain in 4th place?

Marcus ,

I believe you’re right. What that is precisely, is another question.

Reality Time ,

Atlanta has gotten better than this from the Braves and the Falcons. Fans still aren’t showing up in droves, or even on time for a game. This conversation has been a mixed bag.

Big Ray

March 8th, 2011
7:32 am

Najeh ,

Good points. I seem to recall Stephen Jackson talking about being team captain back when he was still with Golden State. Now we know Capn’ Jack has some attitude, but we also know that Golden State has had some serious issues (still do). But it was kinda funny what he had to say about being team captain. He all but dismissed it as anything all that important or even influential.

Yet, he has more moxie for the job than most of our guys. I’d take some brash personality that knows which way to go, rather than “I don’t know” and “we’re a tight knit group”. Maybe I’m just jaded with the lack of leadership we have. It’s not just the lack of leadership. It’s a culture that encourages and cultivates the attitude that does not accept leadership.

O'Brien

March 8th, 2011
7:50 am

The 3 captains idea was destined to fail from the start.

1) How many teams in the NBA have 2 captains (much less 3)?
2) We had 3 team captains, but none of them was the PG, who is supposed to be the coach on the floor?
3) One of the team captains was always at odds with the previous HC.

That’s like you having an employee who is inconsistent with their attitude and their performance, but you really want them to work harder and change their attitude. So you give them more responsibility thinking that will change everything about them? How much sense does that make?

And I don’t think Hinrich will make much of a difference leadership wise, because there is a certain culture and established hierarchy with this team, and unless we get a HC from outside, I don’t think it will change.

Josh will be the kamikaze he is, JJ and Jamal will do what they do (good or bad), and Horford will try his best to play well and speak out, while the HC will continue to say a lot of things, but 1) won’t follow through and 2) says some things he shouldn’t say, making him look like wishy washy at times.

Willie Coyote

March 8th, 2011
8:00 am

LD probably wanted Al to be the captain but thought he can’t make Al the captain and pass over Joe and Josh. Therefore, he chose to give it to all three. I guess he didn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings…which is a problem.

This team is too mentally fragile when the current coach has to walk on eggshells to keep someone from crying or the former coach continually clashed with the team’s most talented player because he wouldn’t spare feelings.

We have the wrong mix of players plain and simple. We have talented guys but I don’t think they have a singular focus on winning. People want to win but they want to win while playing enough minutes, or getting enough touches, or what the hell ever. That more than anything is why this is not a contender. They have the ability to give any team in the NBA fits; they don’t have it upstairs though.

It doesn’t help when ownership is as questionable as it is. I don’t want to give LD & Sund a pass but we really don’t know what they are truly allowed to do.

Willie Coyote

March 8th, 2011
8:03 am

Oh, and not taking it inside against a bad NY defensive team is inexcusable. If they settle for jumpers against that team (after they saw what taking the ball inside did to Chi & Golden State), then don’t get your hopes up that this team’s shot selection will ever get better.

dap01

March 8th, 2011
8:11 am

This ship is sinking.

Ray

March 8th, 2011
8:46 am

My only thing is why always blame Josh? I do agree he can be boneheaded at times, but Josh doesn’t always lose us the games. You can actually blame that a little on everyone especially two elephants in the room Jamal and Marvin(In my opinion). Cause if neither of them can score especially Jamal we’re sunk plus we’ve already stated this before as many shots as Jamal makes he gives up equally or more depending that same game.

Still this offseason if ASG wants anyone to come back next year and not feel like Phillips Arena is a snooze fest then actually get a REAL HC(Head Coach) don’t get me wrong L.D is cool, but not for this team we need a coach that’s not scared to chump the players out when they know they’ve done things wrong.

We also need some new blood in here getting rid of Mike Bibby/Mo Evans isn’t all that needs to change Marvin and Zaza must go ASAP it will make the others think that you can’t get too comfortable in the locker room.

In fact you know I think that’s what’s wrong with this team their just way to comfortable seriously.
When you have 4 of the same people over a span of over 6 years talking about Zaza, Marvin, Josh, and Joe, and don’t make any moves at all yeah I can see players getting lazy cause they know their just going to get their money.

steve brown

March 8th, 2011
9:00 am

Josh Smith-no one seems to mention his propensity for turnovers at the worst possible moments-like 5 against the Knicks. Additionally, no one seems to notice that he is normally unguarded when he has the ball in 3 point range. The opponent wants him to take that shot. They want him to handle the ball. They want him to throw bad pass after bad pass. He just doesn’t get it and after this many years I’m betting he never does.

wordsmithtom

March 8th, 2011
9:18 am

Sund’s contract up this summer. Hmmm His “core” defence suggests the clock is ticking on him and his coach.
Gut says new GM/coach with a target for whichever big man Lakers lose after they get Superman. There’s going to be a player available, and swapping JS for Bynam/Gasol would make us beasts. Maybe even JJ for Gasol…..2 bad contracts.

Just one observation. I watched Kirk during shootaround. He eyed the hoop with hawkeyes, dribbling from left to right without looking….as if stalking his shot. A stone-cold killer. He didn’t have a very good game Sunday, still without his shooting we’d have lost by 20.

Armstrong looked confused, yet he did set nice screens and looks ready to bang. He is big.

Hawkfan

March 8th, 2011
9:21 am

Josh is the problem he takes to many outside jumpers, he should be like Al take better shots. Joe is too humble to say something and so is LD and maybe Al, but someone should tell or show this guy film that I see night after night be at home or at the areana. He is causing us too many games. We do have a good team, but until they learn that LD is the true leader and he is not afraid to stand his ground, this team will continue to suffer………………..I am suffereing as well I am a season ticket holder I have to watch this night in and night out…….I like all the guys I think they just need to be like other teams and learn their role…………..Josh Smith needs to learn his role and stop trying to take over when he simply can not…………

Ray

March 8th, 2011
9:22 am

@ wordsmithtom

Are you serious Sund’s contract is up this summer if so whoopee!! lol.

JeJe

March 8th, 2011
9:38 am

This is the only team in the NBA that makes D’Antoni’s defensive schemes look elite

JeJe

March 8th, 2011
9:40 am

Josh Smith has said before he asks LD when a shot he takes is a good or bad shot
Joe said he doesn’t know what the problem with the team is
Horford says he loves playing NYK then gets owned by Amar’e

Those are your captains

Rufus1

March 8th, 2011
9:45 am

Willie Coyote

“LD probably wanted Al to be the captain but thought he can’t make Al the captain and pass over Joe and Josh.”

That is where LD gave up his power. Any good leader knows, you start with a hard line and then pull back. If he would have made just Al the Capatian, the leadership structure and identity of this team would have been defined…The honeymoon is over and you now see the error of this decision.

LD or Josh Smith will not be hear next year, because you have to choose between the coach or talent…Maybe both will be gone.

Astro Joe

March 8th, 2011
9:48 am

OB, from the previous blog, while a few more points won’t radically shift the team’s fortunes, pushing the tempo is much more intuitive for this bunch of players than what they have been doing. We all know that when Josh actually fills the lane on a fast break (which has been a rare sight this season) that he is an outstanding finisher. And his role of “energizer bunny” is better served when he is dunking on fast breaks. It also seems to result in more blocked shots (if I had nothing to do, I would see if there is a relationship between fast break points and blocked shots… my guess is that the help defense is better when players are free to run and jump). It is strange that with Teague getting consistent playing time, that the fast break points are down. Isn’t that what he would seemingly do best on offense?

I guess that is what is meant by “disarray”. Teague is playing but we’re not running. Hinrich is here but we run an offense that doesn’t make use of his “QB” skills. Al sometimes disappears in games despite being the team’s most consistent offensive weapon. Josh continues to bomb away despite diminishing results. Under the leadership of an offensive guru, this team scores fewer points than last year’s squad (led by someone who didn’t give a darn about offense). Marvin’s defense has picked up in the past 5-8 games yet he doesn’t finish many games (but Jamal does). We scored less than 80 against the Knicks… at home… while they were missing 2 starters.

Yeah, disarray sounds about right. A good loss against the Lakers won’t make me feel better. We’re 4-8 in the last 12 games, we need real victories, not feel good losses.

doc

March 8th, 2011
9:56 am

big ray, dr phil leads. sure, not all coaches can be him. coaches can lead by their actions as much as players. if say the coach is frustrated, inconsistent, hesitant, over-copensates or says one thing and does another, sometimes those tendencies are reflected in the team. i see those attributes with LD and i see it in the team as a whole.

give woody credit for sticking to the mantra of defend and rebound whether it was boring as hell to listen to that was stuck in their heads and no excuses could be made for not doing it. yes they needed more, not sure they got it and they certainly quit from time to time so maybe never quit should have been in there as well.

at times i see confusion and lack of cohesion. in a group this long together that shouldnt be true. it was there last year as well and i blame sund and the askg for not seeing it and acting on it rather than putting their heads in the sand and sticking with the core while seeking a new voice.

i think the askg were expecting their coach to lead differently or be the lead dog. that was all they wanted to change, being the voice.

O'Brien

March 8th, 2011
10:04 am

Ray,

Fair or not, the biggest reason (imo) why Josh gets criticized the way he does is because “with great power comes great responsibility”.

Josh is the one guy who can be a game changer on offense and defense every game…if he puts his mind to it. He is capable of putting up 16 pts, 9 rebounds, 4 assists, 3 blocks, and 2 steals more often.

When he plays like that, it rubs off on the entire team (teamates and coaches have made similar statements), and if he puts up those kind of numbers, chances are the Hawks will win.

But Josh Smith does not put up those kinds of numbers consistently enough. It’s not all his fault, but a big part of his problem is mentally, he is not focused the way he should be sometimes.

Other players have their faults too, but I think Josh is the one player whose focus and mentality might be his biggest obstacle, and his play and energy has a huge effect on his teamates.

Rufus1

March 8th, 2011
10:06 am

I hold out hope….

I hold out hope that Josh will go back to playing more Like Noah and less like AL.

I hold out hope that he will realize the he can dominate a game on the defensive end and that is he true identity.

I hold out hope that that when you shot 8-17(2-9 jumpshots, 6-8 insideshots)that he is better served taking very few jumpshots.

I hold out hope that he will cut hard to the basket(Like D12) on a pick-n-roll, instead of standing outside the paint(Like AL).

I hold out hope that LD will sit down with Josh before the playoffs and say, the jumper experiment is over….

I hold out hope that the LD realizes what Jamal is and limits his minutes and his situations.

I hold out hope that.

Astro Joe

March 8th, 2011
10:08 am

i think the askg were expecting their coach to lead differently or be the lead dog. that was all they wanted to change, being the voice.

Well, he wouldn’t be the first guy to over-promise in a job interview and then under-perform after getting the job. One wonders if Sund doesn’t send texts to Dwayne Casey after every loss with 3-letters… “SMH”.

Astro Joe

March 8th, 2011
10:10 am

Rufus, good luck with that.

O'Brien

March 8th, 2011
10:10 am

AJ,

Although Teague is playing more, one of the issues is he is not finishing his fast break opportunities, so that brings the transition points down. And remember that on the road, LD wants them to slow the tempo.

Looking at the 4-8 record the last 12 games, it was interesting to see how our players were doing from 3. Over the last 12 games, behind the 3-point line, JJ is 7-39 (18%), Jamal is 18-57 (32%), Josh is 6-24 (25%, and he missed 2 games), Marvin is 5-25 (20%).

Those are some of the numbers from those 12 games and our 3-point attempts (and I didnt include Bibby’s horrible numbers because he has taken his declining talents to South Beach via Washington).

We sure take a lot of 3’s for a team thats struggling from 3. Maybe pushing the ball more will also result in less 3-pt attempts.

Rufus1

March 8th, 2011
10:22 am

Astro Joe

Sports is about hope.

Astro Joe

March 8th, 2011
10:23 am

OB, I was thinking more in terms of Teague leading the fast break, not attempting to finish the fast break. You know, PG of the Future?

Did you guys see the SVG quote from yesterday? I’m thinking that Stern will call for him to be beheaded.

“This is the system David Stern and his minions like it,” Van Gundy said. “So that’s the system you have…I certainly can’t have an opinion because David Stern, like a lot or leaders we’ve seen in this world lately, don’t really tolerate other people’s opinion or free speech or anything. So I’m not really allowed to have an opinion. So it’s up to him”.

doc

March 8th, 2011
10:30 am

o’b, wow jj @ 18%. guess we dont need to much of nire’s analysis on that one do we? is it his wing?

the guy better start driving to the hoop, finishing hard and picking up fouls. i know that is not his MO, but somehow he has to come to grip with his faltering shot and come up with a better way to contribute more on offense. not sure if why some of his quiet nature is really to stay in the shadows and not draw fire, unlike josh who draws it regularly. gee, to read this blog you would have thought only jamal was missing his 3 point shots. instead, he is making almost twice as many as jj. hmmmm?

Astro Joe

March 8th, 2011
10:31 am

I wonder if SVG would be as candid as a TV analyst…because I don’t think that he will be coaching the Magic next season. But man, I love his candor and if he brought that to an NBA telecast, I would even watch the T’Wolves vs. the Wizards just to hear his commentary.

Rufus1

March 8th, 2011
10:35 am

Has Jason Kapono been signed?

die hard hawks fan

March 8th, 2011
10:42 am

here a few things for yall to ponder…
#1 Joe Johnson is not worth $100 million
#2 See #1
#3 Hawks should have hired Avery Johnson!
#4 you cant have 3 captains on a BASKETBALL TEAM this isnt football!
#5 see #1

Bottom line the Hawks are not going to go far this season – too many inconsistenices (sp) and I am just throught with this darn cheap owners and lack of serious management in place.

Sund is not in the Western Conference anymore!

Puzzled

March 8th, 2011
10:57 am

On Josh & his jumpers:

There are several notable big men in the league that prefer to play outside, Garnett, Dirk, & Turkoglu, come to mind, but they do it in the flow of the offense. Josh seems to be doing this because it what he wants to do. Josh shooting an 18 foot shot with 15 secs on play clock, can’t be the best shot you’re going to get. If so, then the Hawks need more personnel changes.

This team really needs his skill set in the low post, more than on the perimeter.

On Marvin:

What is his role, and does he have the skill set to fulfill it? He plays good defense, but appears to excluded from the offense.

On JJ & Jamal:

Neither have performed as expected over most of this season. If the two of them were performing at last season’s level on offense, the Hawks would be a much better team.

Bench:

Other than Jamal, and now Wilkins, who on the bench can expect to play almost every night? Ethan Thomas played well against OKC, but went right back to DNP Coach’s Decision against NY.

fsjr

March 8th, 2011
11:08 am

Big Ray, your opening paragraph says it all. The captains say different things after each loss. That makes me wonder then, if they have a consensus on what the problems are. If one feels movement is the problem, another feels energy is an issue, and another does not know, then what is the focus on in practice? The focus should be on the issue(s); however if there is disagreement on what the issue is and where the focus should be, there may not be buy-in on a solution. Therefore we see and hear (afterwards) the same things every night. To answer your question, with the status quo (the core, hold-over coaching, etc) and no shake up in their collective “comfort zones”, then yes, disarray is here to stay.

Rufus1

March 8th, 2011
11:19 am

LD waiting for a mircle….

LD needs to stop treating this team like a “scratch-off hoping” for a winner and start making some sound basketball decisions.

Start with defense and end with defense…Jamal and Josh’s jumpers fit somewhere in the middle.

No jumpers for Josh in the 1st qt outside of 12ft or the 4th qt.

Jamal should not play the last 6min of the 4th, unless for a specific play.

Carey Davis

March 8th, 2011
11:30 am

Get rid of Josh Smith he doesn’t help Horford inside the paint and only wants to shoot long jumpers.

Big Daddy

March 8th, 2011
11:30 am

Ray, good article. You gave some great insights into the team and some of the issues that seem to hold this team back from being successfu. That said, we can talk about all of the things the team should be doing but it all gets back to two people. The GM and the coach. The GM must assemble a group of guys who can be a team. Of course, the GM may have a real issue with salaries and what ownership is capable/willing to pay for players. Next, the coach as to bring together the players to play team ball sometimes in spite of themselves. An offense must be designed that is complementary to the players on the team or that is so fundamental that if run the way it is supposed to be run, the team will be successful.

In our situation, it appears the GM is put in check by ownership on player trades by how much the owners are willing to pay. A lot of the entries on this blog blame Smoove for his shot selection. As much of a fan I am of his, I would have to agree. However, when the game is over and I take a look at the box score, his stats don’t look bad. In fact, they generally look pretty good and he is consistent. So, what that means is that the infuriating part is that bad shots he does take seem to come at the worse possible time. Not that he takes too many of them or they are that far out of his range. What I did notice was at least 3 times in the NYK game Jamal brought the ball up with Kirk calling for the ball and being ignore. Jamal then proceeded to either drive to the right or stay in the middle of the floor and jack up a long shot that missed. I have seen him and others do the same thing with Teague and Bibby. This is a coach issue. He has to control the team and if people are not letting the point guard run the team they should find a seat down on end of the bench consistently until they do give up the ball on the break or when the PT calls for it.

I have finally come to the conclusion the LD is in over his head. If, by now, he does not have this team’s ear, it is really doubtful that he will. We should be seeing some progress by now and although we have a better road record the fans at home who drive or ride the train to get to Phillips Arena with their high price tickets, exceptionally expensive food get a chance to see a mediocre team lose to not only a good team but to poor team and all too often lately not even compete.

I don’t see a significant improvement in play over the reamainder of the season. That will mean that this team will be probably be blown up after this season and the rebuilding will restart. Doubtful anyone will be willing to take Joe’s contract with his performance. Smoove will be the easiest to trade because he can fill a stat sheet and there are coaches out there who believe they can turn him around and make him a more disciplined player.

I refuse to paint a doom and gloom picture of our future. I believe the guys are frustrated because of the lack of discipline in their offense and everybody is now out for themselves. That brings me right back to the coach.

doc

March 8th, 2011
11:31 am

aj, what was the context of svg comments?

anyway, isnt it what the astute fan sees and ultimately shakes his head about? it is wwf on a bigger stage and without padding or roids anymore to fall on. do we think that san antonio will ever be relevant again if the big fundamental retires? the year stern got in the way of the suns taking it all undid me because he really did an injustice there to only not do it against favored teams and individuals going forward. sorry, the cynic comes out in these discussions. can we talk about the refs, say, who ignore it on sunday when amare literally wraps his arm around horford and horford goes to the ground and we get a turnover early on the game and the ref was five feet away? the whole crowd reacted and saw it. that type of crud really irks me that of how stern influences the outcomes of the big picture.

Astro Joe

March 8th, 2011
11:40 am

doc, I think a reporter was asking SVG about the technical foul/suspension rule that forced Howard to miss last night’s game. So clearly he has a bias but it appears that the Magic have been tracking how many times Howard has been fouled without getting a call. So they seem to believe that if the refs would call more fouls, then Howard would be less frustrated and less prone to getting a tech.

But comparing the NBA commissioner to an abusive dictator just doesn’t seem to be a good career move. But then again, I often get reprimanded for bringing real world examples to basketball. So maybe in the NBA, that type of comparison is acceptable. We’ll see.

Carey Davis

March 8th, 2011
11:54 am

JOE is no where near a max contract player bad move for years to come.

tcn

March 8th, 2011
12:23 pm

the writing is on the wall

Ray

March 8th, 2011
1:05 pm

We need to do some moving and shaking to rattle the team a bit it seems they got rattled by the Trade deadline deal, but still Marvin needs to be moved I’m sorry even if he becomes better he must go.

The four main people that have been here seemingly forever need to told(well one can’t be max contract) that you can be moved very easily.

I’m in the crowd that honestly believes Marvin, Joe, Josh, and Zaza have gotten too comfortable.

I’m sorry Jamal is a cancer more so than Josh. He needs to leave.

doc

March 8th, 2011
1:05 pm

oh yeah, big ray, the disarray would benefit from a clint eastwood fix, “a fistful of dollars” and a “make my day” legit big and the problems would fall into better alignment. ;-)

LD would get a whole lot smarter.

O'Brien

March 8th, 2011
1:31 pm

doc,

JJ has struggled with his 3’s all season, but he continues to take them.

October: 31% (3 games); ; November: 25% (15 games)
December: 29% (8 games); January: 35% (13 games) – his best month
February: 33% (12 games); March: 8% (3 games) – his worst month.

There will be alot of Lakers fans in the building tonight, and with the Hawks losing 2 straight at home, they should be extra motivated.

Come on Hawks. Get us a victory, and shup the Lakers fans up!

Ken Strickland

March 8th, 2011
1:38 pm

The large number of the fans on these blogs seem to fall into 2 categories.
1-Those who simply love certain players/coaches no matter what, and
2-Those who simply dislike/hate certain players/coaches no matter what.

Their goal seems to evolve around either blaming or praising whoever they love or hate no matter what. This explains why we’re still getting these absolutely STUPID TRADE SUGGESTIONS that involve certain players well after the trade deadline has passed.

The fact is, no one player is the cause of our problems. It appears a big part of our problems is where MWoodson was too controlling and confrontational, LDrew hasn’t been controlling or confrontational enough. We don’t need 3 captains trying to control the team, we need one HC, period.

Our OFF problems of late stems primarily from LDrews bias and impatience. Rather than continuing to start and play Teague extended mins, thus giving Hinrich more time to learn and intergrate himself into the system with less disruption, he couldn’t wait to flip the script. Again, just like the case with Bibby, I blame LDrew, not Hinrich.

It’s obvious JJ is far more effective with the ball in his hands. But rather than clearing out and having him pound the ball to get into the lane, we need to post him up more and get the ball to him in the lane. With this approach, the DEF either allows him to go one on one, or immediately double team.

Our BIGGEST PROBLEM is we don’t play like a very smart team, especially one that’s become what amounts to a predominantly half court OFF. We’re actually doing things “A–” backwards. Uptempo fast breaking teams are suppose to be the ones with high turnovers, while half court ball control OFF’s are suppose to have fewer turnovers.

O'Brien

March 8th, 2011
2:07 pm

Ray,

I dont think moving Marvin will rattle the cages. He has missed 17 games already, and has been the 7th man off the bench sometimes. Have you ever heard any of his teamtes say “we can’t wait to get Marvin back?”.

He has contributed to some of our wins (and losses), but he is the 6th option on the team when all is said and done.

The only moves that would rattle the cages (imo) is if it involved Al, Josh, JJ or Jamal.

Ken S,

I agree with your point that the Hawks biggest problem is they dont play smart basketball consistently. And leadership (or lack thereof) starts at the top. Mr LD.

Ken77

March 8th, 2011
2:24 pm

Here’s the real truth. The Hawks just what ownership and management wanted. A average team that has the potential to make the 2nd round of the playoffs and win 1 or 2 games. The problem is the other teams did not just sit pat, but has passed the Hawks by adding quality players. The problem is ownership and coaching period. Atlanta will never have a serious professional basketball team until a serious owner buys this team who will do what it takes to win a championship. Until then, we are just wasting time and treading water. Only truth can set this team free.

kwooden

March 8th, 2011
2:34 pm

I definitely think “disarray” is too strong of a term. The HAWKS are about what they should be. Being a 3rd or 7th seed doesn’t mean anything, the HAWKS need to figure out what playing well means. Right now, they can’t hit anything from 3. (Except for Hinich) Now that we’re consistantly playing good teams, all of our flaws are exposed. Coaching and player mistakes are much more evident against these good teams, because every game is competitive. We need to …

#1 Start hitting open 3 pointers! (That by itself would make all the difference in these close games)
#2 Start the offensive with Smith in the post, Horford in the high post (when Josh starts in the post he has less time to walk back out to the 3pt line)
#3 make sure that the PG initiates the offensive

We waste to many possesions by not running our offensive and getting key turnovers.

Astro Joe

March 8th, 2011
2:48 pm

kwooden, as many have suggested in the past, things get worse when playing a 7 game series against a quality team. If these teams can figure us out for a single night, then it seems pretty likely that they will continueto make the right adjustments during a series. Meanwhile, we always get quotes AFTER the game that make it sound like the head coach and players were fully aware of the issues.

For all the disdain of hearing a captain say “I don’t know” at least that is an honest response. Because if you knew the issues, then seemingly one would adjust accordingly during the course of the game. Telling us “we need to move the ball more” after 5 assists in a half is little more than lip-service. Saying that we “settled for jumpers” while leaving in the culprits is plain aggravating. The frequent excuse of “energy” is nothing short of infuriating.

“I don’t know” is even better than “we’ll be better in the next game” because that optimistic view ignores a diagnosis of the problem. If you have a headache, saying that it will be better tomorrow sounds nice and rosey but it does nothing to address the cause of the headache.

OK, I’m getting myself all ticked off again (at this team). I honestly expect a quality effort tonight but it won’t be enough. From the owner down to the 14th man (Pape Sy), this team isn’t built for more than the standards set the past 2 seasons.

Ray

March 8th, 2011
3:00 pm

@ OB

I guess my frustrations are beginning to get the best of me with this team. Still this offseason from GM down the the players including head coaches and assistants plus the players moves need to be made some smart moves.

I still say don’t trade Josh I’m actually holding out a little hope we can get D12 it would be awesome if we could. Plus Dwight could probably keep Josh in check you never know.

Astro Joe

March 8th, 2011
3:17 pm

Ray, in the D12 scenario that you painted, Josh becomes a full-time SF, right?

mykhalc

March 8th, 2011
3:24 pm

to sum it up…lack of leadership from the top down. no on-court leader and some of the lowest BB IQ that one will ever wanna see on an ongoin’ basis. we’ve seen this ‘disarray’ for far too long. in a lion tribe they get rid of the adolescent males…same process needs to happen here…if only there was a big ass male lion around here to bring some order!!!! F’n PITIFUL…PERIOD!!!

Astro Joe

March 8th, 2011
3:28 pm

mykhalc is bringing the Animal Planet knoledge to the liar’s table. We had a lion licking a baby gazelle yesterday and now we’re getting a lesson in pride politics today. Good stuff… I’ll have to come correct with my own wild life analogy for the playoffs. Meanwhile, we get the Black Mamba tonight. :)

mykhalc

March 8th, 2011
3:33 pm

Joe…:-) and for the record i enjoy the AP channel MUCH more than Hawks BB these days!!! in fact, to spare Hawks fans some misery i hope ESPN suffers a blackout tonite!!!

mykhalc

March 8th, 2011
3:37 pm

@Big Ray…good read man!!!

Astro Joe

March 8th, 2011
3:44 pm

mykhalc, LOL. If the Hawks are down by 20+ tonight, I’ll go looking for the documentary on the killer ant colonies on Animal Planet.

E43

March 8th, 2011
3:54 pm

Big Ray- “I hear you. Can’t explain the Falcons attendance issues. Atlanta…it is what it is…and I don’t even live there. I’m abou 4 hour south…”

Its just not a transport friendly area. You spend a whole hour just getting to the arena/stadium. It costs $12 to park at some places but you cant really use public transport because routes are limited. Game-time discounts by MARTA certainly wont hurt the attendance but i don’t know how the bus system works.

O'Brien

March 8th, 2011
3:56 pm

New blog up from MC. An interesting quote;

“We have the luxury of having five guys that can get the ball off the board and bring it out on the dribble,” L.D. said. “I said it before and I said it again: that is where we are most effective. When Al and Josh Smith are playing with that type energy it makes us more effective. Yeah, we take a chance on coming down and them making the wrong decision. But I trust in them.”.

So LD wants Josh and Al to get the rebound, hold the ball, and push it? Ok…

At this point L.D. laughed a bit before continuing: “Josh has to work on it a little bit more. I was talking to him this morning. Against the Lakers [last game] he tried two lob passes that had no chance of being executed. No chance. He and I kind of chuckled about it this morning. It’s just those type plays. We have to stay in the attack mode but we have to be more selective.”.

Does Josh know how to be more selective though? Hasnt that been one of his weaknesses, which is why LD called him kamikaze? I just dont think LD and Josh take it serious enough…

mykhalc

March 8th, 2011
4:11 pm

@Joe,,,LOL you might wanna prepare yourself for the IQ difference when you watch the ants tho!!!

Astro Joe

March 8th, 2011
4:24 pm

OB, I’m not even sure if LD is trying real hard to coach Josh anymore. It just seems like he concedes everything these days. Bad shot selection, bad turnovers, poor transition decisions… and is he having an MVP-type season that would make you think that it is worth all of that?

I agree with the plan to run more but that may be tough when facing a very good rebounding team like the Lakers.

O'Brien

March 8th, 2011
5:06 pm

AJ,

Also, what the team needs to realize is that you can also run on made FGs. Just inbound the ball, and run up court, maybe you catch the other team asleep. Obviously, if nothing is there, then you have to slow it down, run a play etc. But push it.

My problem is, if Al or Josh are leading the break (with the ball), then who will they be passing to? Isnt it likely that if they pass the ball, they will pass to somebody who is going to take a jumper, since Josh and Al are the ones who should be attacking the rim?

There are times when they will take it all the way to the rim, but thats probably when they have most of their turnovers (offensive fouls, turnovers etc).

Paradise Lost

March 8th, 2011
5:21 pm

Big Ray: Great post! I can’t spout stats and strategy like most of my intelligent fellow bloggers, but you wrote this post about team leadership and motivation and that is something I actually know a thing or two about, especially leading and motivating dysfunctional teams to produce results.

My observations regarding the 3 team captains and their relationship to the HC are not unlike what happens in many companies. The HC is like the CEO of the company and the ACs are the first-line managers. The employees, aka the players, are the backbone of the company. In a move that, by most accounts was not unpopular with the employees, the president fired the CEO last year and decided to promote from within.

The first order of business for the new CEO/HC was to take stock of what he’d inherited. A few new employees were hired, but mostly the workforce looked the same. As CEO/HC, LD didn’t need to figure out where the breakdowns were in the team dynamic; he was keenly aware. He just had to figure out how to work around them.

JJ is the senior employee, popular with his coworkers and loyal to the company (for 6 years at least). His coworkers look to him and respect him overall, but he really just wants to come in and do his job every day (“Just gotta play 48 minutes with effort and energy” If I had a nickel for every time I’ve heard that from him in interviews…well I still wouldn’t match his salary, but I might double mine!). The CEO/HC doesn’t want to show any disrespect to JJ’s contributions to the company so he asks him to remain as a Floor Manager/Team Lead/Captain.

Next you have Smoove, the brash, explosive, occasionally brilliant young executive whose talents could position the company for favorable results on product and profit for years to come. If only he would grow up. In a risky move, the CEO/HC decides some additional responsibility by way of leadership might motivate this brash talent to mature at a faster rate. I’ve seen this tactic employed by managers over the years—I’ve even used it myself—and it’s always a gamble. When employees rise to the challenge it’s rewarding to see and a boost to team and results. However, when it fails, as is the case here, it is OH SO painful to watch.

Lastly there is Al, the brilliant, dedicated, hardworking young executive. Only a few years with the company, but he already displays the mental aptitude for great, responsible leadership. Heck, his coworkers already call him The Boss. (As aside, one of hubby’s favorite moments is one of the games Al missed after his collision with BG. Al gave a sideline interview and the camera panned as he walked back to the bench. He stood in front of his teammates just staring at them and they all jumped up in unison and slid down one seat so he could sit down…a prime example of his effect on his team!). Al personifies what the company is all about. He is the future of this company. He promotes the company, the brand, the product. He is the young executive who works late on Wednesday night and gets up early Thursday morning to drive to a school to celebrate a child’s success on behalf of the company and then goes on to a promotional radio appearance to promote the company. He works hard, attends the company picnics, and participates in all the company charity events. He IS the company and if his personal opinions about the company or its brand are remotely negative, he keeps them to himself. The CEO/HC knows intuitively that this young man is truly the best suited leader of this team and promotes him to Team Captain.

The unfortunate thing for the new CEO/HC is he should’ve dealt with the senior executive by having a heart to heart talk with him regarding his contributions and how valuable they are to the team. CEO/HC should’ve suggested that those contributions could be valuable in other ways this year and asked JJ to pass the baton and join him in mentoring the up and coming leadership. LD should’ve discussed JJ’s legacy on this team with him and asked JJ what mark he wants to make in Atlanta over the next 6 years. I sincerely don’t believe JJ wants to be remembered for alienating the fans.

CEO/HC should’ve dealt with the brash young executive with a direct and frank discussion regarding his brilliance and talent, and in that conversation pointed out to Smoove that the only thing holding him back from true legacy-type achievement in this company is himself. LD should’ve pointed out to Smoove that he has the athleticism and the intuition (“He knows his assignments and those of everyone around him”) to be an elite player if he can only overcome his ego.

And yes, the CEO/HC should’ve made Al the Team Captain. Period.

As I read Big Ray’s post last night, I was reminded of one of the best books on leadership I’ve ever read called “The Five Dysfunctions of a Team.” Those dysfunctions are so glaringly evident in the comments made by coaches and players over the course of this season:

1. Absence of trust: “Team members who are not genuinely open with one another about their mistakes and weaknesses make it impossible to build a foundation of trust.”
2. Fear of conflict: The lack of trust creates “artificial harmony,” ie, an atmosphere in which “they resort to veiled discussions and guarded comments.”
3. Lack of commitment: Without trust and healthy conflict, “team members rarely, if ever, buy in and commit to decisions, thought they may feign agreement during meetings.”
4. Avoidance of accountability: Without commitment and buy-in, “even the most focused and driven people often hesitate to call their peers on actions and behaviors that seem counterproductive to the good of the team.”
5. Inattention to results: Without individual accountability, “team members put their individual needs (ego, career development, or recognition) above the collective goals of the team.”

Please take this long post and leadership analysis for what it is: my sincere desire to see this team succeed—for Atlanta, for its fans, and for the players themselves (who are a joy to behold when they play like they did against the Bulls last week). Note to LD: I will gladly loan you my personal copy of this book if you promise to read it all!!!

GO HAWKS!

Blast

March 8th, 2011
5:22 pm

MC, if you are reading Big Ray’s blog, can you please tell my why I have been unable to post on your blog for more than a month now? My posts show up on Bradley’s blog, shows up here, but they never post on your blog! Please, help!!!!!!!!

Steven A.

March 8th, 2011
5:31 pm

Lakers will roll the Hawks tonight by 20. The twenty million dollar man “will not,” I repeat, “will not” score
20 points. Until Drew realizes he needs to start Armstrong at center, and develop him, Hawks have zero
chance of advancing. AL HORFORD is not a good enough rebounder or shot blocker to play the center
position. Horford just does not have the swagger.

E43

March 8th, 2011
6:22 pm

vava74

March 8th, 2011
7:18 pm

dang, international league pass is down…

vava74

March 8th, 2011
7:31 pm

%&$#!!! WTF is happening with league pass? dang!

And WTF LD is doing? I am not watching the game but it seems that neither of the teams was playing D and he goes to Jamal for MW again?

vava74

March 8th, 2011
7:41 pm

yeah… Jamal 0-3 + 1 turnover and it’s teague that gets the hook (I don’t care if Teague is playing like crap, just let me rant at will…)

Melvin

March 8th, 2011
7:41 pm

Jamal aint doing nothing but LD is going to play him extended mins…

Melvin

March 8th, 2011
7:42 pm

Vava,

Co-sign your 7:41 post…. And Jamal is getting beat on defense.

O'Brien

March 8th, 2011
7:50 pm

From MC’s blog;

Drew said he wants to get Damien Wilkins more minutes. “I definitely want to try to find more minutes for him, because he has that ability to give you that intensity,” he said. “Jeff (Teague) is the same way with with his speed and his quickness.”.

So he gives teague a compliment, but so far, Teague has played 3 minutes (+2 rating), while Jamal played 8 minutes, going 0-3, no assists (-7 rating)?

O'Brien

March 8th, 2011
7:57 pm

Wow. Josh inside the paint, close enough where he can take a shot and possibly get fouled. but instead, he passes it out to Hinrich, who passes it to JJ who passes it back to Josh…who now takes a 3…airball.

Do these guys just look for jumpers?

Oh Oh. Josh makes a 3, so he will probably spend a lot of time at the 3-point line for the rest of the game.

vava74

March 8th, 2011
8:17 pm

LD said that we should run more, get more transition buckets.

To run you need to play D and get stops.

To play D and get stops you have to limit Jamal’s minutes.

On the other hand, Jamal said that they should get back at having fun and be loose.

Jamal may be a nice guy but he knows ZERO about winning basketball.

To have fun you must first win games and to win games you need to get the opposing team playing uncomfortable and for that you need to play D and to play D you need to give an all out disciplined effort, day in and day out until it becomes second nature and easy.

Fun only comes after that, not before.

Dept. of Unintended Irony

March 8th, 2011
8:22 pm

StevenA,

about this: “AL HORFORD is not a good enough rebounder or shot blocker to play the center”

I’ll give you shotblocking, but REBOUNDING? He’s 6th in the freakin’ league and 3rd among all centers.

Don’t fall for the hype that he’s not big enough to rebound.
position.

lukas

March 8th, 2011
8:24 pm

LD prefers to go small against a tall team. If there’s a game where Collins should play is this. LD is looking more like Woody as the season advances.

lukas

March 8th, 2011
8:30 pm

Points in the paint: Lakers 34, Hawks 10.

Melvin

March 8th, 2011
8:31 pm

Why does LD continue to play Jamal at PG????

vava74

March 8th, 2011
8:32 pm

Same people that Al does not rebound enough are the ones that advocate getting a true center like Nene (7.3rpg)

vava74

March 8th, 2011
8:35 pm

In the meantime I complained and got the league pass back on.

And what do I see? Jamal at the point for Hinrich… nice ball rotation to JJ who can’t get a 3 to go in after 12 bounces at the rim. Then Jamal goes solo early in the shot clock – misses – and on the immediately following play lets Fisher score…

nice…

Ray

March 8th, 2011
8:38 pm

This game is over as we speak lol (it’s so funny it hurts that I want to cry).

@ Astro Joe your earlier post about Josh being at SF full-time well yes don’t see any other solution do you if he stays that is.

vava74

March 8th, 2011
8:43 pm

LD has lost it completely.

His rotations are devised almost like a lotto draw. There isn’t a resemblance of a game plan.

The guys are completely lost out there, just playing solo, jump shot happy no structure basketball.

Basically, everyone is playing like Jamal.

LD is a blind man driving on NASCAR right now. He only goes forward on account of leaning against the wall. That’s it.

O'Brien

March 8th, 2011
8:44 pm

vava,

more jamal. who is 1-6

Ray

March 8th, 2011
8:46 pm

This is terrible now the hawks get extremely exposed on National TV.

This is so stupid I just want to pull my hair out.

O'Brien

March 8th, 2011
8:46 pm

man, Jeff teague’s jumper looks ugly (even the floater looks ugly sometimes).

AJ,

Last night, Toney Douglas had 20 points, 6 assists, and 3 rebounds against Devin harris and the Jazz.

Ray

March 8th, 2011
8:49 pm

@ OB

But what did you expect from Teague the guy doesn’t have the complete confidence in his shots yet plus they need a lot of work and it seems like their not getting much work in these practice sessions that they have by now we should have saw improvement, but Teague might wind up like Josh takes him a few seasons to hit his true potential.

vava74

March 8th, 2011
8:50 pm

OB,

Harris is very soft on D.

Teague’s confidence is back to zero. His problem is not the jumper or the floater. He misses those, some badly, due to lack of confidence.

The Teague that came out of college would have dunked that ball and got a plus one.

Everyone is crapping their pants, so it’s not only Teague.

What about Al’s floater? He was scared sh*tless with Bynum’s presence.

lukas

March 8th, 2011
8:50 pm

After LD complete his contract, he will never have a coaching job in the NBA again.

vava74

March 8th, 2011
8:51 pm

Zaza got 65 second last game. Tonight he plays.

Hilton got some burn last game. Tonight no minutes.

lukas

March 8th, 2011
8:53 pm

Agree with Vava. Al will finish with nice stats, but the truth is that he is scare to go down low.

vava74

March 8th, 2011
9:00 pm

Al showed the “Nowitski” there.

It would be nice if he introduced that to his game.

JJ started 4-5. He is 0-6 since. WTF is happening???

Ray

March 8th, 2011
9:00 pm

Yeah I think all those DNP for certain players beginning to bite back at L.D plus not giving certain players enough burn. I honestly think our bench could be better if they just got some extra burn especially against teams like the kings win or lose it would have helped us and probably help avoid horrible games like these.

vava74

March 8th, 2011
9:05 pm

stupid teams go for the homerun (3 pointer) to cut leads when the momentum is shifting.

smart teams go to the rack and either get the easy 2 or the FTs.

O'Brien

March 8th, 2011
9:10 pm

Note to LD. Hawks made their run mostly when Jamal was NOT in the game.

vava,

I think its all about mindset with this team. Guys are soft and perimeter oriented. Al timid, Josh will pass up a shot in the paint, only to pass the ball to a jump shooter by the 3-pt line.

O'Brien

March 8th, 2011
9:12 pm

What’s up with JJ? Another bad night for him. is he still hurt? We need more from our max player!

vava74

March 8th, 2011
9:13 pm

OB,

If there was a game which required LD to use the big line up it was tonight.

With Collins, Zaza and Hilton, leaving Al to play Gasol which is a much better match up.

vava74

March 8th, 2011
9:16 pm

JJ is struggling mightily and I think that part of it is mental.

This last 3 he missed, he thought too much.

O'Brien

March 8th, 2011
9:16 pm

Meanwhile, JJ goes 1-5 from 3, and Jamal goes 1-5 from 3, Hinrich goes 1-4 from 3.

Those are the numbers LD needs to talk about. Its not all about transition points.

Sautee

March 8th, 2011
9:20 pm

Big Ray,

Is disarray here to stay?

At least until Friday.

O'Brien

March 8th, 2011
9:22 pm

lakers…12 three point attempts (5 makes).

Hawks…22 three point attempts (7 makes).

And now we go play Chicago, who has te best record in the East. Ouch

Melvin

March 8th, 2011
9:22 pm

Hawks didnt play that bad tonight. They got beat by a better team. I would have prefer that LD use the big lineup tonight. Gasol/Bynum were just too big for us tonight….

vava74

March 8th, 2011
9:26 pm

we were in the game until Jamal go in.

immediately upon his entry the Lakers scored 6 unanswered points and we had to play catch up.

the myth that our bench sucks is just a myth. all benches – in general – are worse than the starters, the issue is how to use it to maximize it.

our bench got us back into the game with Zaza and Damien playing well.

Given the Lakers line up, with Gasol and Bynum and then Odom coming off the bench, our best strategy, IMO, would have been to go big and have Marvin come in to check on Odom when he got in.

Instead, we went small to start with and then even smaller with Jamal coming in for Marvin!!!

vava74

March 8th, 2011
9:29 pm

“O’Brien
March 8th, 2011
9:16 pm
Meanwhile, JJ goes 1-5 from 3, and Jamal goes 1-5 from 3, Hinrich goes 1-4 from 3.
Those are the numbers LD needs to talk about. Its not all about transition points.”

OB,

And who comes into the game and jacks up 3 pointers as his MO?

The team plays down to Jamal’s level.

Melvin

March 8th, 2011
9:30 pm

Vava,

Your Jamal bashing has no limits…LOL

vava74

March 8th, 2011
9:32 pm

Melvin,

No, it doesn’t.

Jamal is a huge part of our problem.

vava74

March 8th, 2011
9:35 pm

Jordan Crawford unleashed his dog tonight doing his best Jamal impersonation for good and for the bad:

J. Crawford(notes) 26:35 FG9-17 3FG1-5 FT3-3 -22 oreb1 Treb4 ass3 to 5 stl2 blk0 BA0 PF0 PTS22

vava74

March 8th, 2011
9:38 pm

small potential for a little solace… the Heat are down by 8 with 7min to go and Wallace is at the line for a possible +1

vava74

March 8th, 2011
9:39 pm

calling Bill Laimbeer… calling Bill Laimbeer…

O'Brien

March 8th, 2011
9:48 pm

I meant Bulls have the best home record in the East (27-4).

Typical LD, going offense for defense, when he was asked why he went with the regular lineup instead of Twin. He said, the regular lineup scores more points.

vava74

March 8th, 2011
9:58 pm

After tonight I am no longer even residually optimistic.

Disarray is not the word. Jamalitis is.

What would I do? Start Zaza and ride him if he is playing any good or take him out if after 2 minutes he is looking bad. This way we can try to extract the most out of his good nights.

Obviously reduce Jamal’s minutes to a bare minimum.

Use Wilkins to sub JJ. Give minutes to Teague (I don’t care how bad he looked).

And always keep 2 starters of the main 4 (Hinrich, JJ, Josh, Al) on the floor.

Use Marvin to sub both Josh and Al at the PF slot.

Melvin

March 8th, 2011
9:58 pm

Can we expedite the sell of this franchise. I hope the new owner(s) get rid of all the front personnel when/if they take control. I do not trust this front office to make any offseason moves this summer…

vava74

March 8th, 2011
10:01 pm

At least the heat lost again, so we will go under the radar.

OB,

I was all for LD base on his words. The simple truth is that he is lost and should be canned pronto. Let Conner finish the season, heck, let the cleaning lady do it.

O'Brien

March 8th, 2011
10:09 pm

At least Miami lost.

And dont look now, but the Hawks are 2 games in front of the Knicks (in the loss column), and 3 games in front of the Sixers (in the loss column).

We could easily end up in 7th (although whether or not thats a bad thing is debatable).

E43

March 8th, 2011
10:24 pm

Im blaming this teams jumper happy nature on lineups. I really think that the lineups do nothing to help the cause. If LD really has a problem with jumpers then he should elect to a)use the big lineup permanently. or b)shy away from the 3 guard formation to close games. I’m just saying that if you put 4 centers on the court you probably wont see any 3 pointers or mid range shots. Right now LD is blaming it on the players when he should be forcing them into an ultimatum.

Ray

March 8th, 2011
10:25 pm

Yeah L.D was in over his head we need new coaching bloodline lol cause the old one has shown us that it isn’t going to work out.

We just need a clean sweep of the Ownership, GM, Coach, Staff(certain people), and players.

Big Ray

March 8th, 2011
11:03 pm

Big Daddy ,

Right you are. Much comes back to the GM and the coach. We shall see how that plays out this summer, because I have a sinking feeling that we’re not going to like how the postseason goes. And it may not take as many as 7 games to find that out.

O’brien ,

Your 7:50 a.m. post says it all.

fsjr ,

Oh, if only we could be several flies on the wall in a Hawks practice. Veterans and leaders talk in practice. I wonder if our guys do? I’ll never forget the training camp practice they televised last year. I know it was different because it was televised, but how different could it have been? Josh was making jokes out of everything they did, Marvin laughed from the sidelines, and Joe never said one word while going through the motions. Who talks in practice with this team?

Big Ray

March 8th, 2011
11:06 pm

Bad as it may be, I never had any doubts about the outcome. It was only a matter of how many points we lost by. The Lakers are on a mission, and we can’t hold it together for even a quarter at a time some days.

It’s a sad state of affairs when you can only take comfort in the loss of a slightly better team that is ahead of you in the standings. Miami’s failures may be our temporary salvation. Or, maybe not. Hard to say, but we can’t depend on what other teams do.

Big Ray

March 8th, 2011
11:14 pm

Sautee ,

You sound like Dr. Seuss. And that, my friend, is preferrable to any post game quotes right about now.

Observations from the game:

1) Horford looked better than just about anybody.

2) Zaza performed fairly well and led the team in rebounds.

3) Hinrich has got to be wondering if this is really any better than playing in Washington.

4) Joe underachieving….again.

5) Jamal…. ugh

6) Hilton Armstrong should play more.

7) I am really, really tired of seeing two things with Josh Smith. One is his fuming and walking back up court (instead of hustling on defense) after a call or non-call he has an issue with. Another is him forcing things by running the break. Josh running the break sometimes meets with success, but it is horribly inefficient. He is one of the deadliest finishers in the business. And one of the worst passers while in transition.

8) Damien Wilkins deserves a roster spot with us next season. He deserved one at the beginning of the season.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 8th, 2011
11:58 pm

Forget minutes — Damien has shown enough that he deserves to start over Marvin. Dump Marvin’s salary in the offseason if possible and re-up Damien for 2 years/$2 million or something of that nature and let him start. Sign some Matt Barnes-type to back him up so that the Hawks are not overly reliant on him. For a change, let’s have a key contributor on this team who actually outplays their contract.

doc

March 9th, 2011
12:06 am

big ray this team as it is playing right now is no better than the team that preceeded the coming of al horford. that is right. how bad this team has sunk in the last two months. they cant throw it in the ocean much less make a three. they cant finish at the basket either. wilkens is better than marvin, plain and simple. jj is so much the inferior player to that of three years ago. his decline is frightening.

sorry the team sucks and has no focus. it could get real ugly if they dont turn it around soon. mutiny? still we got it to 90-82 and had a good look at the three and it rimmed out, then it went the other way and we didnt sniff it frm that point on.

N.D.T.K.A.

March 9th, 2011
12:08 am

The Hawks are a dysfunctional family.

In a dysfunctional family the people at the top (re:dad and mom) have real issues or problems. Their problems, no matter how much upside or talent the kids have, will eventually be the undoing of the children thus a dysfunctional family (re: the Atlanta Hawks).

ASG, Rick Sund, and Larry Drew are dad and mom. ASG don’t make timely moves with this team, and Rick Sund can’t seem to do enough with hands tied to change the culture with the Hawks. Drew will not do what it takes to change the bad habits of this team.

Jamal Crawfords minutes needs to be limited or he should have been traded before the deadline.

Even Joe is a problem. His salary puts him in a position where he needs to speak up and take responsibility for bad play. How in the he!! can you have the highest paid player on the team not stepping up and demanding more of himself and of his teammates. Joe is a dysfunctional big brother along with Jamal.

The only way to fix a dysfunctional family is to move the children (re:Horford, Josh, Marvin, and Teague) away from the bad habits of the adults: Drew, Jamal, and Joe.

Will Joe ever step up and lead this team if not, get rid of him at all cost?

Get rid of Jamal, he does not respect Hinrich or Teague and will never defend? For all his talent this is why teams like the Knicks and Golden State traded him for little or nothing.

Drew cannot get these guys to listen. Dwayne Casey, Avery Johnson, Ty Corbin and Lawrence Franks look pretty good now.

larrykansas

March 9th, 2011
4:20 am

Remember when Marvin Williams was a freshman at North Carolina, experts were comparing him to Michael Jordan? They were saying he would be the Michael Jordan. When is this suppose to happen? What an unfair burden to put on a young man.

Big Ray

March 9th, 2011
4:37 am

“We have the luxury of having five guys that can get the ball off the board and bring it out on the dribble,” L.D. said. “I said it before and I said it again: that is where we are most effective. When Al and Josh Smith are playing with that type energy it makes us more effective. Yeah, we take a chance on coming down and them making the wrong decision. But I trust in them.”

At this point L.D. laughed a bit before continuing: “Josh has to work on it a little bit more. I was talking to him this morning. Against the Lakers [last game] he tried two lob passes that had no chance of being executed. No chance. He and I kind of chuckled about it this morning. It’s just those type plays. We have to stay in the attack mode but we have to be more selective.”

Yes, by all means. Let’s just have a laugh about that over morning coffee. After all, turnovers aren’t killing us, and we’re not scoring an all new low in points per game…..are we?

Yep. That’s what fans are supposed to get all fired up about and buy season tickets to see. A show called Cirque De Fool-Ass.

Big Ray

March 9th, 2011
4:38 am

Najeh ,

Preach it brotha, preach it.

NCBravesFan

March 9th, 2011
5:12 am

If this trend continues and the Hawks check out of the playoffs quickly, I don’t think it’s enough to blow up the roster. I don’t want LD (or Sund) back next year stirring the drink.

I have two hopes:

1. The sale of the Hawks can happen quickly.
2. New management gets the opportunity to lay fresh eyes on this mess and deal accordingly.

Samuel

March 9th, 2011
6:00 am

Iv’e been here for years and the Hawks have never been committed to winning a championship nor will they ever be. It’s just not a good sports town in terms of winning championships.

vava74

March 9th, 2011
6:29 am

We are suffering from a bad case of Jamalitis Loosenitis.

Everyone wants to jack up jump shots early in the clock and play hero basketball.

Defense is too hard and takes too much work. Let’s bury the opponents with out terrific 3 point accuracy as early in the clock as possible and with as little rebounding help as we can think of.

Even Hinrich went for it with that missed 3 that “would have put us only 5 points down”.

What is the freaking problem with trying to be 6 points down instead of 5 for crying out loud?

vava74

March 9th, 2011
6:40 am

Jamal’s first stint, spanning last 4.40 of the first and the first half of the second quarter: (minus) -10

http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20110308&game=LALATL

That is when the game went away from us.

vava74

March 9th, 2011
6:48 am

The 3 bench players who usually play D and rebound (Zaza sometimes does play D and rebound well like yesterday), posted positive ± numbers.

Marvin and Hinrich, who both play D, had relatively small ± negative numbers (Hinrich -6 on 32 minutes and Williams -8 on 23 minutes).

Al was over matched on both ends (in spite of good numbers) and JJ sucked big time because his shot went away from him after starting 4-5.

Jamal compensated with a good second stint and Josh was so so.

The ± stat may not be reliable but it helps a bit (like all stats).

O'Brien

March 9th, 2011
7:52 am

I wont say Damien is better than Marvin. But when you compare his (prorated) vet min salary to Marvin’s $7.5 mil, he is great value for the money (marvin isn’t), and Damien should be an automatic invite to training camp this offseason with a contract.

Al played ok, but his mentality against Bynum and Howard are handicapping him. He does not play aggressive enough against these guys, and he is quick to settle for jumpers.

JJ needs to find a hot-tub time machine, because we need him to go back to his January form. And he needs to stop taking 3’s unless its at the end of the shot clock.

Overall, I dont think the Hawks played all that bad, but they were playing catchup the whole game, and it got away in the third quarter. Hinrich missed a big 3 that would have cut it to 5 in the 4th, but you wonder if we should have settled for the 3 at that point, or swing the ball around for a higher % shot.

And now we play Bulls in Chicago, where they have the best home record in the East at 27-4. Will the losing streak continue? Stay tuned…

Astro Joe

March 9th, 2011
9:51 am

Considering the Hawks home record the last few years AND that they had beated the Lakers at home for 3 or 4 consecutive seasons, is it safe to say “we would have won that game last year”?

John

March 9th, 2011
9:52 am

Bosh is unhappy..in off-season, trade JJ, Marvin, and ZaZ for Bosh, Mike Miller and Dampier. I’d take a roster with:

Hinrich
Miller
Smith
Bosh
Horford

Dampier, Crawford, Teague main bench players

I’m willing to bet that team will be better than current team. Just my thoughts.

Astro Joe

March 9th, 2011
9:52 am

“…they had beated?” Wow, time for some more coffee.

John

March 9th, 2011
9:53 am

wow, this season has gotten so bad I’m turning into one of those people who post ridiculous trades. Can’t wait for this season to end (1st round)!! haha

O'Brien

March 9th, 2011
10:21 am

Hawks are only 2 games up on the Knicks, and 3 games up on the Sixers (in the loss column). Anything can happen.

AJ,

Considering the Hawks home record was 34-7 last year, and 31-10 the year before, compared to 18-12 this year, I think the Hawks would have won last night’s game last year and the year before that.

As we get closer to the playoffs, I’m losing more and more confidence in LD. SHouldnt it be the other way around?

Rufus1

March 9th, 2011
10:39 am

I can find the Light….

I think this team is better than last years.

I think Damien is starting to get his legs under him, so he is starting to play better….Improving our bench.

Joe is in a shooting slump….so when he come out of the slump the Hawks will be better.

Jamal only played 22min last night.

Astro Joe

March 9th, 2011
11:01 am

Rufus, I need whatever you are drinking.

Jeff Schultz’ article was pretty funny. I actually have mixed feelings about them selling the opponent’s gear in the arena… why not make money on the fans of other teams… if the Hawks are winning they will wear their gear quietly. At the same time, it does suggest that you’re more interested in building revenue than building Hawks fans. It’s okay to sell the t-shirts for every college during the SEC tournament but my gues is that you won’t find any Florida gear at a UGA home game. If I drink what Rufus is drinking, then I could believe that the $30 Kobe t-shirt will lead to more money spent on the Hawks (e.g. competent college scouts, a better summer league team, a statistician, etc.). And, again, if the Hawks are winning, then those t-shirts have no voice.

Rufus1

March 9th, 2011
11:28 am

Sorry Astro, I don’t drink. I simply know this team can play better than they have. I holding out hope they fix their problems before the playoffs.

Remeber, Joe, Jamal and Bibby, scored a lot more points last year….Everyone else is about the same. Kirk, is an upgrade over Bibby, but Jamal and Joe have fallen off a cliff.

PS. I agree with everything VAVA says about Jamal X 10…simply take him out of the Game and we are a better team.

I would release Jamal and pick-up Kapono after 3/12/11….He can’t play in the playoffs and he has become a useless crutch for LD.

E43

March 9th, 2011
11:31 am

Astro Joe- The ownership is beginning to exhibit signs of wanting to relocate. I say it because this is the same ownership that lied to the public about the sale of the Atlanta thrashers. The fact that They’re that desperate to make money tells me that there’s something that we simply don’t know about. I’m not a professional or anything but selling your opponents gear AT THE ARENA just tells me that they are coming much closer to giving up on the city of Atlanta. This is somewhat similar to what happened to Seattle(even though that was a completely different situation). Their fans came out completely surprised when truth be told the signs were always there. I’m pretty sure that at some point the ownership will come out and announce a meeting that contemplates the relocation of the team just to get a response from hawks fans.

Astro Joe

March 9th, 2011
12:07 pm

E43, maybe I have my head in the sand but I’m not overly concerned with the prospect of the Hawks leaving town. If the Pistons could find potential buyers in that struggling market than surely the ASG can find someone to “dispose” of these properties in Atlanta.

O'Brien

March 9th, 2011
12:51 pm

AJ,

If I drink what Rufus is drinking, then I could believe that the $30 Kobe t-shirt will lead to more money spent on the Hawks (e.g. competent college scouts, a better summer league team, a statistician, etc.). .

You mean like the $3 mil they got for selling a draft pick?

It doesnt bother me as much that the owners were selling other teams gear, because I know they need the money. However, I dont want to hear them implying that Hawks fans are to blame.

doc

March 9th, 2011
2:24 pm

rufus 1 ….. Jamal only played 22min last night.

for vava it was an eternity. ;-)

at some point the team’s slump will be over or we will have continued misery as we drop to seventh.

doc

March 9th, 2011
2:30 pm

sales of opponents jerseys? no prob as i am sure it will go right back into making it a better product for people like me that buy season tix and sit next to those yellow and midnight blue clad folks in the stand ripping our guys and yelling out mvp to their guys. right nire?

when will jj give me the chance to do the same or owners get a real mvp type player? isnt he paid to do thse things?

O'Brien

March 9th, 2011
3:10 pm

doc,

when will jj give me the chance to do the same or owners get a real mvp type player? isnt he paid to do thse things?.

For this season, January is the only month (imo) where JJ put up MVP type numbers over a consistent period of time.

But so far, he is underperforming compared to his contract.

E43

March 9th, 2011
3:17 pm

Astro Joe- The hawks will likely remain. I just dont trust them (ownership) to do anything by heart. It will always be a business decision. The only decisions that they made by heart was signing Al Horford and Damien Wilkins/Mario West who have or had earned their contracts. Everything else has been a decision influenced by making the most money today/right now.

gary

March 9th, 2011
4:11 pm

The problem with the Hawks is Joe Johnston. A superstar does not disappear against a quality team. He is payed like a superstar but plays like a bench player. He has the Hawks handcuffed for the next four or five years, great move Ric Sund on giving superstar money to a guy who plays like a reserve agains quality teams. We could not trade him because no one will take that inflated contract. Nice going Hawks management

Astro Joe

March 9th, 2011
5:05 pm

E43, I don’t trust the ASG to do anything but enter into another lawsuit.

O'Brien

March 9th, 2011
6:13 pm

How many games did it take for JJ and the Hawks to figure this out? From MC’s new blog;

J.J. may have gotten to the crux of the matter when asked today if the way for the Hawks to get their offense back on track is to attack the basket.

“Maybe,” he said. “But you look at a jump-shooting team–we are a jump-shooting team. If shots are falling then, great, we are rolling. But one through five, we all are jump shooters. That’s pretty much what it is.. MC.

httphttp://blogs.ajc.com/hawks/2011/03/09/atlanta-hawks-j-j-we-all-are-jump-shooters-thats-pretty-much-what-it-is/?cp=3#comment-182780/

The interesting point to me, is his comments imply that our starting Center and PF are both jump shooters too. And I think thats exactly what Al and Josh would consider themselves to be.

Its also proof to me that Teague deserves more PT, because as we all know, he is not a jump shooter :smile:

niremetal

March 9th, 2011
6:35 pm

67% of Teague’s attempts this year have been jumpshots:
http://www.82games.com/1011/10ATL2.HTM

Not Sund

March 9th, 2011
7:32 pm

Either we dismantle this team (unlikely/impossible) or we thank L.D. for one wonderful season of jumpshots and get a strong coach in here.
Someone who will put Smoove’s ace in the lane and make him stay there. Someone who will call J.J. out for only playing aggressively in January when he is working for a spot on the allstar team. Someone who will define a roll for Duck. In short, someone who will coach this team.
Al and Kirk will be fine, they know how to play.

Let’s go Braves!!

Big Ray

March 9th, 2011
8:25 pm

E43 ,

Never fear. Atlanta will have an NBA basketball team whether the Hawks move or not (and I don’t think the ASG is actually trying to move the team). Stern and Co are not going to let this market dry up, regardless of how bad attendance might be.

The same attendance issues aren’t going to chase Arthur Blank or the owner of the Braves away, either.

Big Ray

March 9th, 2011
8:26 pm

O’brien ,

Scary, isn’t it? Just plain scary.

O'Brien

March 9th, 2011
8:41 pm

From Hoopinionblog.com;

Joe Johnson: “[W]e are a jump-shooting team. If shots are falling then, great, we are rolling. But one through five, we all are jump shooters. That’s pretty much what it is.”

As Josh Smith approaches taking half of his shots from outside of 16 feet, Al Horford adds the corner 3 and the step-back 18-footer to his arsenal, and Johnson is on pace for another career low Free Throw Rate this must surely be the apex of one-dimensional inefficiency if not also self-awareness, at least in Johnson’s case.

ESPN’s new director of analytics, Dean Oliver, in essay about the Miami Heat addresses two topics relevant to the sputtering Atlanta offense: over-dribbling and the absence of the -roll part of the pick-and-roll..

shootermagavin

March 9th, 2011
9:10 pm

They traded the wrong guy. Smith is a good ball player, but that’s it. No, he isn’t an all star, and no, he is not very bright. The problem with people who aren’t smart is, they make bad decisions, and (because they aren’t smart) don’t know they’re making them (because, you guessed it).

He’ll never learn from his mistakes, because he doesn’t have the brain power to know he’s making them. It sure is great he’s from Atlanta….SUPER! but that, sadly, doesn’t make him any smarter, or any better a ball player.

niremetal

March 9th, 2011
10:05 pm

That’s the first “Josh is stupid” post we’ve seen around here in awhile.

I think there is a difference between intelligence and focus/maturity. I think Josh has the raw intelligence. He sees the court, he knows how to throw a pump fake, time a block, etc. He just chooses to take the easy way out. He’s like the kid who could get straight A’s if he focused, but is happy goofing off a bit and getting a B-average.

Melvin

March 9th, 2011
10:41 pm

Watching the Magic/Kings game. If Dwight and DeMarcus keep going at it like this, they will be fighting before the game is over….

Najeh Davenpoop

March 9th, 2011
10:58 pm

“Stern and Co are not going to let this market dry up, regardless of how bad attendance might be. ”

If nothing else, the fact that this place routinely sells out when marquee superstars show up should show the league that there is a fan base waiting to be tapped in this market, and the DASG has just done a p-ss poor job of tapping it.

marvin

March 9th, 2011
11:38 pm

The coach joe johnson Marvin Williams oh god who want to play for the hawks with these guys I seen joe in the stands eatin pop corn well he should have been anyway with Marvin William man Marvin William Plays like hes about 37 are 38 and on the downs side of his career always misses key jumpers maybe he should loose the mouth pieace Lets go after greg oden and put al horford at PF I Know Odens knees we dont have nothin to loose anyway at this rate we can bust up the team and see can we get some new Blood in

Ed

March 10th, 2011
2:27 am

In the Wizards awful loss to Milwaukee JC went for 22pts; 4 rebs; & 3 assists on 9-17 shooting in 27 mins. We are going to regret letting him go…he has that moxie that everyone wants Teague to have. The way I see it, you either have it or you don’t, and Crawford has it and Teagure doesn’t. The Hawks finally get a draft pick right on a guard and give him up without giving the kid a chance.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 10th, 2011
2:32 am

“We are going to regret letting him go…he has that moxie that everyone wants Teague to have. ”

Or maybe the Hawks let him go before they had a chance to squash that “moxie” out of him, the way they did to Acie and Teague.

Ken Strickland

March 10th, 2011
4:04 am

The Hawks not drafting DWilliams, CPaul and BRoy was the best thing that could have happened for them and the NBA. If we had drafted either player he would have gotten the WOODY TREATMENT, and the NBA would have been without one of it’s current All Stars and best players.

I don’t understand this stupid bias towards young PG’s that both Woodson and Drew seem to share. They would rather burden the team by playing a regressing, over the hill, liability of a PG, and risk losing their jobs, than make an honest attempt to develop a young PG.

While ALaw and JTeague have their issues on OFF, they certainly don’t have any issues on DEF. But the bias of Drew and Woodson is so strong they can’t bring themselves to even take advantage of what the younger players can do well. Until we hire a HC that’s committed to doing more than paying lip service when it comes to developing a young PG, the Hawks will continue wasting draft picks and money, and having problems at the position.

vava74

March 10th, 2011
4:55 am

nire,

A few commentaries on that stat on Teague:

A) tear drops from close are probably considered jump shots.
B) when given minutes and his confidence got a boost, Teague went to the rack often and was getting stronger at it.
C) when Teague went to the rack on the games he started/had good minutes and he dis not finish well, he got fouls or we got put backs (one by Al, one by Smoove) in several of those attempts.

dub366

March 10th, 2011
7:02 am

you all can say what u want the problem is joe johnson he suppose to be your superstar can’t avg 20 point a game that your problem .you run the play and the ball stop with joe.

vava74

March 10th, 2011
11:21 am

Another small mitigating factor:

Everyone, I mean everyone, is saying that the Lakers are clicking on all cylinders right now and had a terrific game in ATL.

Top to bottom, from ESPN to FOXSPORTS, everywhere.

And even so, we were 8 down in the 4th with poor execution eliminating our chances of a real come back…

Najeh Davenpoop

March 10th, 2011
11:39 am

“Everyone, I mean everyone, is saying that the Lakers are clicking on all cylinders right now and had a terrific game in ATL.”

I think we’d all be a lot more willing to buy that if the Hawks hadn’t just come off losses to the Perkins-less Thunder and the Chauncey-less Knicks. The Lakers loss may be a “quality loss” but it comes in the middle of an extended slump for the team, and that game didn’t do much to erase lingering doubts about this team’s recent level of play.

vava74

March 10th, 2011
12:14 pm

Najeh,

You are right, but I said “small mitigating factor” not “we are off the hook factor”.

We are still dealing with Hinrich arrival and with the fact that LD is completely over his head.

We MAY eventually settle out game before the playoffs and at least look competitive.

Also, I would like to know WTF has happened to JJ since he was selected for the ASG, from that moment on his game just went south.

He is either hurt – again – on his elbow or he is mentally broken down with something which is displeasing him, like last year after midway the MIL series when he went from bona fide all-NBA to scrub in less than 4 seconds…

vava74

March 10th, 2011
12:19 pm

The bare fact is that with JJ shooting like he is right now (in particular from 3 point land), it is very difficult to win games (some of his 3 point misses have been back-breakers).

We would be better off with him off the floor all together.

At one point in the Lakers game he had an open look for 3 from the top and instead of “just shooting it”, he hesitated and the whole shooting motion was un-natural and clumsy.

It looked almost like Josh’s bad 3 point attempts when before he starts the motion there is an instant of hesitation and then the shooting motion is done with too much thought in it.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 10th, 2011
12:43 pm

If the Hawks had a coach who could actually get his players to do something, Joe would have been de-emphasized in the offense by now. Joe may be the Hawks’ best offensive player (maybe) but the offense clearly functions worse when run through him, and that’s even when he’s playing well. When he is playing poorly, any possession run through him is a wasted one.

Pick and rolls with Smoove and Al and post ups for Smoove should be the bread and butter of this offense, and Al should lead the team in jump shot attempts (as opposed to Joe, Smoove, or Jamal).

Astro Joe

March 10th, 2011
1:00 pm

Najeh, that is part of the problem with the “move the ball until you get a good shot” offense, shots come from all over the place. My guess is that for the past few weeks, Josh has come very close to equaling Joe’s FGAs but Josh isn’t anywhere close to the paint.

E43

March 10th, 2011
1:02 pm

Big Ray- Atlanta is what it is. Its still a growing city despite some of the pains we endure. TNT NBA TV and CNN must see some kind of potential one way or the other.
I

E43

March 10th, 2011
1:10 pm

I think that there is way too much panic among hawks fans. Imagine what south beach folks are going through right now. This years east is very unpredictable. Miami Orlando and Atlanta have not met their expectations but I guarantee that the Celtics want nothing to do with the Hawks in a playoff series. Chicago wants nothing to do with Orlando and the Knicks probably don’t want to go through south beach. I think the best thing to do is to just calm down watch this thing play out and if it doesn’t play out well we at least know that we only need one more piece(true center) to be contenders. Right now the back and fourth bad team good thing is just premature.

O'Brien

March 10th, 2011
1:18 pm

vava,

In his last 4 games, JJ is shooting 6% from 3 (1-18, and only 5-6 from the FT line).

We get on Josh for his shot selection (and rightfully so), but why has JJ taken 18 three-pointers in 4 games, when it is clear he is struggling (and he has struggled from 3 all season)? And then he only has 6 FTA in 4 games?

He complained when Kobe baited the ref into giving him 3 FTs (rightfully so, because JJ didn’t touch him), but that’s what good players do, especially when their shot isn’t falling. Find a way to get to the line or at the very least, drive the ball.

But I agree with Najeh. There is a mental block on the team because of JJ (imo). Everybody (coach and players) consistently look to him to make the big shot, to come through in crunch time, to go to him when we need a bucket, and recently, we are not having enough success to justify continuously doing that.

dap01

March 10th, 2011
1:23 pm

To ASG, Hawks management, Hawks Coaches: You could not have possible done worse than you have in your present capacities.

niremetal

March 10th, 2011
1:46 pm

O’Brien,

Again, you can’t expect shooters who have shot well for their entire career to stop shooting because they are in a shooting slump. No. One. Does. That. No one. At all. Ever. You can’t get through a slump if you stop shooting altogether. Even in a particular game, you can miss the first two threes and then rattle off 4 in a row in the second half.

It’s just remarkable that so many people have a mentality that basically expects players (at least the ones they aren’t huge fans of) to have a clairvoyant ability to see when a slump will start/end.

Ken Strickland

March 10th, 2011
3:03 pm

When JJ played for the Suns he played without the ball, but he also played with one of the best PG’s in NBA history. For the past 6yrs he’s been used as a one on one player(ISO), even though he lacks effective one on one skills. Over this 6yr period, he not only had to play without the benefit of a decent PG, he was usually required to compensate for our PG shortcomings.

As far as productivity and recognition is concerned, he’s been very successful, as his 4 consecutive All Star selections prove. MWoodson was very focused on trying to get certain players selected to the All Star gm. It appears some of our players are still focused on that goal, and started controlling the ball and the off in order to increase their numbers.

This was very evident with JJ and Jamal, since both missed parts of the season due to injuries, and felt they had to make a statement to get noticed. The Motion and High Low OFF’s, which were so effective earlier in the season and allowed us to overcome the absense of both players, were replaced by the ISO dominated OFF of the past as soon as they returned.

Now we have LDrew adding to the problem by rushing Hinrich into the starting lineup before he was ready. I guess Drew figured he could do what he and Woodson were unable to do, and that’s gain control of our more strong willed and disruptive players.

How in the hell can Hinrich be expected to gain control of All Stars, or All Star caliber players, when he doesn’t know anything about the OFF, DEF, HC, organization, expectations, ownership, GM, or the players? LDrew seems to be conflicted. On one hand, he tries to show he’s not a Woody clone, but as the season progresses we see him repeatedly making the same illadvised decisions and reverting to the same stupid habits/bias’ that characterized MWoodson’s tenue.

I think certain players are taking advantage of Hinrich not knowing our OFF systems, as well as Drew’s heavy and premature reliance on him, to do their own thing. It also appears Drew has lost control of this team. Just like Woodson before him, he’s making excuses rather than actively addressing the players and the problem head on.

When it comes to young players like Teague, they don’t hesitate to sit them down during gms when they don’t do what they want. But when it comes to veteran players, they both seem to prefer behind the door verbal confrontations, rather than sitting them down during gms until they start doing what they want. And don’t give this WE CAN’T RISK LOSING GMS BS, because we proved how well we can do when these same players are out with injuries.

Astro Joe

March 10th, 2011
3:08 pm

nire, I think the assumption is that if you are missing from specific places on the court, that you try shooting from a different place. But I do think that Joe does a fairly good job of trying to explore his mid-range game when things aren’t going well from deep.

Astro Joe

March 10th, 2011
3:18 pm

Strickland, LD recently said that he calls the sets. The PG on this team is NOT the traditional QB… not because of a lack of floor leadership skills but because of the nature of the offense. If the offense is supposed to “force ball sharing and movement” then by definition there isn’t a single player holding the ball waiting to make the assist. Those PGs with high assists numbers typically dominate the ball until they find an open teammate. That isn’t what this team does. LD wants them to be a five man attack, everyone is in position to score. Everyone has a chance to take a quality shot. The offense doesn’t become stagnant due to lack of movement. (Of course, guys have to know what is a good shot and then convert it, but that is a separate issue). Hinrich is the starter because he is light years better than Teague. In no way, shape or form should Hinrich starting be associated with the team’s current struggles.

O'Brien

March 10th, 2011
3:24 pm

nire, AJ,

JJ is a 37% career shooter from 3, so I don’t expect him to stop shooting 3’s altogether.

But if a player goes 0-5 on Monday, 1-4 on Wednesday and 0-5 on Friday, I would not expect him to take 4 more on Sunday (JJ went 0-4) and 5 more on Tuesday (JJ went 1-5).

At what point does that player say “Overall (on the season, and especially the last few games) my 3 hasn’t been falling for me, and I’ve missed my first 2 attempts this game, so rather than take 3 more 3’s, let me try something else”.

Is that too much to ask not just of JJ, but of any veteran player?

doc

March 10th, 2011
3:33 pm

vava @ 12:14 said what i have been thinking. in fact the whole teams game has gone south since the asg selection it seems.

nire, i hope they get out of their slumps within the next two weeks or it will be next year looking at us real quick wondering what happened.

unfortunately, it boils down to and harks back to the essence of the problem spoken about for years, no post presence and a severe imbalance in skills. for what it is worth what bk got us in his 6′9 scheme was not guys that were reality all that athletic but really three guys that probably are better suited to play pf than al playing center as a pf since he has no post game and marvin who has less mobility and athleticism than most 3’s in the game. he should be a back up pf and will be before his time is done. all three guys want to stand in the same spot and do the same thing and it does not include muscling folks out of the way.

Astro Joe

March 10th, 2011
3:37 pm

OB, but I think you have to admit that some of those 3s come within the flow of the game. I know that he is missing a bunch of uncontested 3s, but I think he has to take those shots. Turning down an uncontested 3 to dribble another 4-6 feet closer into a contested shot doesn’t always make sense. There is a fine line… I understand both perspectives.

I hate to see Joe shoot what I call “the hero 3″, which is when he shoots a long distance bomb to either take the lead, tie the game or do something else related to momentum. He does that often and misses the hero 3 often. But if it is within the flow of the game AND is an uncontested shot, then I want my career 37% 3-point shooter to stroke that ball.

O'Brien

March 10th, 2011
3:45 pm

AJ,

I agree there is a fine line. But I’m hoping JJ can do a better job walking that fine line, or start making his 3’s.

doc,

When Marvin puts his mind to it, he does a decent job of driving the basketball, although his handles are not all that great (imo). But on defense, I think Marvin is very capable of defending SFs. It’s his offense that I’m not sure what position best suits him.

As for JJ and his decline after the ASG, maybe Bibby leaving has affected his offense :smile:

doc

March 10th, 2011
3:50 pm

vava meant 12:19 post that addressed the shooting woes that started way back now. again the problem is when the shooters arent on collectively which they arennt, there is no plan b of anyone capable of rising to the occasion and is willing to take it to the basket. sadly the guy who is a 40% shooter is now @ 18% can he go lower? it reminds me of the stock market two years ago and when does it stop declining?

Astro Joe

March 10th, 2011
3:50 pm

Here’s one good/bad view of Joe vs. mega-stars. Joe has allowed younger players to blossom while playing with him. I’m not sure that same is true of some of the mega-stars that some want him to be more like. Has Kobe allowed a younger player to blossom into an All-Star or “near-All Star”? How about LeBron? Anyone notice how well Beasley and Dorell Wright have played since leaving Wade’s formidable shadow?

So when Josh gets ticked off because he feels like he was snubbed out of the ASG, I think Joe has no issue with him doing his Rambo routine for a few games. When Al decides he wants to beat-down his former college teammate, Joe isn’t stopping him from producing a monster game. Jamal won SMOY essentially playing the same position as Joe. Could you imagine a SF off the bench winning that award on a Melo team?

The Hawks are more like a poor man’s version of the Celtics. Despite the so-called big 3, there are probably 5-6 guys who could be the best 3 on that team any given game. Pierce doesn’t stand in the way of Rondo having a big game and KG doesn’t mine if Big Baby goes off. Unfortunately, we don’t have the quality depth, coaching, or talent of the Celtics. But I think part of Joe’s problem is also part of what has made Al and Josh grow by leaps and bounds the past 2-3 seasons. I’m not sure that you could have one without the other.

niremetal

March 10th, 2011
3:54 pm

O’B,

Yes, it is too much to ask. Because NO PLAYER DOES THAT.

doc

March 10th, 2011
3:54 pm

o’b our three bigs all have terrible handles and why they are not threats to drive and prefer to avoid the embarrassment of being stripped for moving to the basket with the ball unless they are “leading the fast break”. yeah, marvin does go to the basket bit sometimes ends up on his azz uncontested. reminds me of “skates” who played outfield for the braves in the 90’s.

O'Brien

March 10th, 2011
4:59 pm

nire,

If that’s the case, then JJ better start making his 3’s. If not, things could continue to spiral downwards.

AJ,

I understand what you’re saying, but I disagree. Even with Al and Josh and Jamal, the offense has been mostly tailored to ISO-JJ. So what would JJ have done differently that would have stopped Al and Josh from blossoming?

Towards the end of the season last year, and more so this year, that has not been the case as much, but still. And even though Jamal played the same position, JJ played 3 positions at times (PG, SG and SF), so he still got his numbers/opportunities regardless.

The biggest change has been the reduction in his minutes (from 41 to 38 to 36). But in theory, that should benefit him even more, because he is fresher in the 4th and late in the season when the team looks to him. This has been JJ’s season average since he has been a Hawk.

‘05-’06: 20 pts, 6.5 assists, 4 rebs in 41 mpg

‘06-’07: 25 pts, 4 assists, 4 rebs in 41 mpg

‘07-’08: 22 pts, 6 assists, 4.5 rebs in 41 mpg

‘08-’09: 21 pts, 6 assists, 4 rebs in 40 mpg

‘09-’10: 21 pts, 5 assists, 5 rebs in 38 mpg (Al made the AS team, Jamal SMOY)

‘10-’11: 19 pts, 5 assists, 4 rebs in 36 mpg (Al made the AS team).

I think his average has been close to consistent except for when he averaged 25 ppg.

Ken Strickland

March 10th, 2011
5:05 pm

ASTRO JOE-I agree with everything you said except Hinrich becoming a starter, especially so soon, not having any effect on the team whatsoever. While it’s understood he’s light yrs ahead of Teague as being a PG is concerned, he’s certainly not light yrs ahead of Teague as far as knowing the players and our systems. Not knowing where he or anyone else should be at any given point, especially down the stretch, is definitely having an effect on ball and player movement, and the OFF in general.

In order to compensate, LDrew has chosen to take the OFF back to the ISO/clearout days of MWoodson, but it’s not working because our 2 best ISO players are currently struggling big time. That leaves the rest of our players, who’s cleared out, standing around outside taking jumpshots, or trying to take someone off the dribble with too much ground to cover, which has led to a lot of our turnovers.

At this point, all we can do is just show patience and allow Hinrich time to grasp our OFF systems. Once that happens, he can then utilize his experience, ability and take charge attitude and approach to make our OFF run on all cylinders. Until that happens, we have to live with the growing pains of having a new starter on board, and the resultant problems it’s causing.

While I can and will b!tch and moan with the best of you, I’m still a diehard Atlanta Hawk fan that will support LDrew and all of our players to the end. For our Hawks to win, we need positive results from everyone.

Steven A.

March 10th, 2011
5:18 pm

“GONE FISHING”

Najeh and John are both dead on. At the beginning of the season, i predicted that the Atlanta Hawks would finish 41-41. It could very well happen. No one on this roster is untouchable. LD has one more
year and he will be ” fishing ” with Woody.

E43

March 10th, 2011
5:43 pm

Joe Johnson doesn’t really hurt this team much. If Joe doesn’t get buckets then hell help others do so. My problem is that after six years no one has really stood out as Joe’s sidekick.(albeit the Detroit pistons championship model)

I know were used to bashing Joe for not being a superstar but truth of the matter is that the people around him need to be more consistent. We know Al is pretty consistent and josh smith has come a very long way since his rookie year. No one else has developed into a consistent threat. Kirk and Damien help this team but everyone else is highly inconsistent for one reason or the other. Look at a guy like josh powell. He lit up the heat that one time and then vanished. It was the same with jordan crawford and Jeff Teague.

Sometimes its frustrating to hear the trade joe/smith talk when theyre 2/3 of the most capable and consistent players the hawks have had in quite some time.

Nahila

March 10th, 2011
8:20 pm

Afraid so, I think some of them have quit already based on their shooting percentages.

Astro Joe

March 10th, 2011
8:50 pm

OB, Joe has averaged around 18 FGAs over most of his seasons as a Hawk. That is hardly ball-hogging. Add 5 assists and it suggests that he simply doesn’t dominate the ball in a manner that doesn’t allow for other players to develop. The iso-Joe thing was always way over-blown. The Hawks have had a double digit bench scorer for most of Joe’s tenure as a hawk, not to mention 2-3 other double-digit scorers in the starting position. Iso-Joe may have felt like the lone formal play being run but the reality is that this has always been an “ensemble cast” which has allowed guys like Al and Josh to develop and players like Childress, Flip and Jamal to shine. Iso-Joe as some debilitating play that stopped others from developing is every bit the myth as the 5-man attack offense.

O'Brien

March 10th, 2011
9:12 pm

AJ,

Iso-Joe as some debilitating play that stopped others from developing is every bit the myth as the 5-man attack offense..

I agree. My biggest complaint about the ISO was that it made us predictable in crunch time, not that it hindered others from developing.

As for the original point, are you saying that if JJ was more selfish, maybe he would be taking 20 -25 shot attempts per game, and passing the ball less, which could hinder other players development?

If so, I dont think JJ is good enough for him to take that many shots and carry a playoff team consistently. And one reason why is he does not get to the FT line often enough.

Teams already double team him as it is, so if he took more shots consistently, then I think it would just be him taking more shots with a higher degree of difficulty, which (imo) would lower his FG%, and not necessarily increase the team’s win total.

Mike Bibby with a 3 in the 4th quarter to tie the Heat and Lakers. In 12 minutes, he is 1-2 from the field.

O'Brien

March 10th, 2011
9:13 pm

Another 3 by Bibby. heat up 3. lets go lakers

Big Ray

March 10th, 2011
9:35 pm

AJ ,

Your 3:18 post nailed it. Of course, I knew that it wouldn’t quite get across all the same because it doesn’t hit the specified target of your intended recipient, who only has eyes for one person. :lol:

Big Ray

March 10th, 2011
9:42 pm

E43 ,

I don’t think the issue is that Joe doesn’t have a sidekick. It’s the issue that he isn’t quite the lead dog we have expected him to be (or that this franchise signed him to be)…. AND that he doesn’t need a sidekick…he needs an equal. Another bonafide star. But one that compliments him.

Josh isn’t that guy. Horford would be, but they don’t work in tandem. The imbalance of this team continues to undermine it 5-6-7 years later. If Joe were a pg, he and Horford would work well in tandem. Josh doesn’t play to his strengths enough to be a bonafide scoring option every night. There are times when he shoots too many jumpers and tries to lead the break too often.

Part of that has been not having a solid, bonafide starting pg who could lead the break consistently and get the ball to the finishers. Part of that has been how this team has been coached, and how they play on offense. It’s been a lot of things.

And AJ is right – this five man attack offense is finally wearing through the nerves of even some of the most optimistic fans. Because it simply isn’t working.

Now, this is just an opinion.

What typically happens is that when the team starts losing and looking frazzled, people start picking on their favorite targets. Some go for the coach. Some go for a player they never liked in the first place, or one they’ve grown to dislike. Some take aim elsewhere. It’s predictable.

But…some of the issues should be clear. Even to those who are in denial or subject to the tunnel vision of their own hand-picked targets.

Big Ray

March 10th, 2011
9:48 pm

John ,

Was it you that suggested Erik Dampier? My issue with that is based on what Dampier is doing for the Heat right now. 16 mpg yields 2.4 ppg and 3.2 rbg. If this is how he is for the up and down Heat (alongside Bosh, LBJ, and Wade), then why would he do better in Atlanta? Dude has motivation issues.

Big Ray

March 10th, 2011
9:49 pm

Joe says it’s a jump-shooting team at heart. Great. Well now we know what the Pentangle is all about.

O'Brien

March 10th, 2011
10:23 pm

Big Ray,

I think Tyson Chandler would be a good fit at Center for the Hawks. Unfortunately, we dont have the money to sign him (or outbid the Mavs).

As for the pentangle offense, I give Samuel credit. From LD was hired, Samuel said NBA players will not consistently execute the motion offense, because its not in their DNA. And so far, he is looking to be right (although part of the Hawks problems is they dont have the right players for a motion offense, because there should be more slashers, and more consistent jump shooters imo).

The Sixers players had the same issues with Eddie Jordan, when he tried to implement a Princeton offense. They didnt stick to it, and eventually EJ got let go. I think LD will suffer the same fate as Woody.

In 2 years, his contract will be up, and I think he will be let go, and not be given another HC job.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 11th, 2011
12:42 am

“It’s just remarkable that so many people have a mentality that basically expects players (at least the ones they aren’t huge fans of) to have a clairvoyant ability to see when a slump will start/end.”

Can we at least, then, expect the coach to have a clairvoyant ability to see when their players are in a slump and adjust the offense accordingly?

Najeh Davenpoop

March 11th, 2011
12:45 am

“How in the hell can Hinrich be expected to gain control of All Stars, or All Star caliber players, when he doesn’t know anything about the OFF, DEF, HC, organization, expectations, ownership, GM, or the players? ”

I have actually gotten the impression that Kirk has picked up the offense pretty well. He has tried to force things in a lot of situations that have led to unnecessary turnovers, but I haven’t seen him looking lost out there. I do think, though, that the tendency of Joe and Jamal to stop ball movement clashes with how Kirk wants to play, and it will be a while before they learn to mesh their games together.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 11th, 2011
12:47 am

“At what point does that player say “Overall (on the season, and especially the last few games) my 3 hasn’t been falling for me, and I’ve missed my first 2 attempts this game, so rather than take 3 more 3’s, let me try something else”. ”

Exactly. And also, isn’t this the constant, game-in game-out criticism of Smoove? Isn’t this exactly what we want Smoove to do? So because Joe has shot well in previous seasons, he is entitled to shoot his way out of slumps, but Smoove is not?

Bullsh-t.

I am still waiting to see a “Joe jumpers update”.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 11th, 2011
12:53 am

“Sometimes its frustrating to hear the trade joe/smith talk when theyre 2/3 of the most capable and consistent players the hawks have had in quite some time.”

Nobody would be proposing trades to break up “the core” necessarily if there was no salary cap. The problem is that at the rate Joe especially gets paid, there is no realistic way the Hawks can improve this team outside of Teague developing into an All Star or Sund trading Marvin and Zaza for someone who is consistently productive.

Big Ray

March 11th, 2011
5:45 am

Najeh ,

I am still waiting to see a “Joe jumpers update”.

LOL….don’t hold your breath, you’ll pass out.

Big Ray

March 11th, 2011
5:47 am

And I agree, Hinrich has picked up just fine since joining the team. Dude knew how to play the game the right way before he even got here.

Besides…what is there to pick up? Confusion and disarray?

Big Ray

March 11th, 2011
5:50 am

O’brien ,

Actually, I agree with that. Chandler would be a good fit, but you’re right, we can’t afford him. Not without a brilliant trade. Or a very lucky one.

I also think you’re right about LD. Unfortunately.

tony

March 11th, 2011
6:33 am

Blame the nba owners. They sign these players to huge contracts before they even play a single game. You will get 100% effort and respect from these players if you make them earn every dime they make. Example:

1) Unlimit Pay(most be a top 10 nba player)*
2) Popularity Pay $7,000,000 Per Year(most be a top 20 nba player only)*
3) Starter Base Pay $5,000,000 Per Year(this doesn’t include a top 20 player)
4) Minutes Pay $1000 Per Minute(minutes per game)
5) Points Pay $2,000 Per Point(points scored in games)
6) Assist Pay $1000 Per Assist
7) Steal Pay $1000 Per Steal
8) Block Pay $1000 Per Block(block shots)
9) 6th & 7th Man Pay $4,000,000 Per Year
10) Reserve Pay $1,200,000 Per Year(5 yrs in the league)
11) Reserve Pay $500,000 Per Year(less than 5 yrs of service)
11) Top 10 Draft Pick $2,000,000 Per Year

Footnote* Teams probably need to spend well over the luxury tax to sign a top 10 nba player.
Footnote* Jersey sales would most likely detemine players ranking. These players plays a major role in persuading fans to come to the games.

If a coach bench a player for not following instructions that player can’t earn those incentives during games.

O'Brien

March 11th, 2011
7:55 am

Props to Bibby who hit 2 big 3’s in the 4th last night.

doc,

Bosh looked good last night. 24 and 9 against Gasol.

Knicks lost, so that puts us 3 games up (in the loss column). So even if we lose tonight, we are still 2 games up. I think we will hold them and Philly off for the 5th seed. And as bad as we have looked at times, I still think we can give Orlando a run for the money in the playoffs.

niremetal

March 11th, 2011
8:32 am

Najeh,

So because Joe has shot well in previous seasons, he is entitled to shoot his way out of slumps, but Smoove is not?

Yes. With someone who has shot well for the entirety of his career, you can reasonably expect that he’ll be able to return to shooting well when he hits a slump. With someone who has never shot jumpers or 3s well during his career (except for 2 months this season), you can’t have that confidence. Not sure what league you

niremetal

March 11th, 2011
8:36 am

‘re watching if you don’t think that’s the case.

I am still waiting to see a “Joe jumpers update”.

I explained this to doc awhile ago. It takes me awhile to put together the updates, so I only really have time to do one. Josh has drastically increased the numbers of he is shooting this year as compared to past years (64% of his attempts versus 36% last year). Joe is shooting about the same number of jumpers (80% vs. 79%). Thus, differences in Josh’s jumpers will have more explanatory value with respect to the team’s performance compared to last year.

vava74

March 11th, 2011
9:07 am

Every single time we bring someone new, we hope for the best. Most of the time, we hope for the impossible.

For instance, Hilton, who played well defensively against the Knicks, is only 26, so in a perfect world he could be a guy who would finally amp up his game whilst playing for us, giving the Hawks the athletic rotational big we need to complement our roster.

However, here are his numbers when we was a starter for NO in 08-09, with Paul as his PG:

Games29 Min 604 FG 82/128 FT 33/49 Oreb 47 TREB 114 ASSTS 10 STL 10 BLK 23 TO 41 FL 99 PTS 197
FG%.641 FT%.673 MPG20.8 PPG6.8 RPG3.9 APG0.3

This guy has the reputation of having the worst hands in the NBA, of being lazy and not working on his game, a chronic underachiever who has earned his paycheck on account of ONE decent season at Connecticut as a defensive C and on account of being 6′11”.

I also checked 82games.com and he gets his shots blocked at the same rate than Zaza (actually a bit more even).

Why can’t we get, for once, a scrub big who can dunk on people, rebound and block shots?

vava74

March 11th, 2011
9:08 am

Ray,

Blog monster!

Astro Joe

March 11th, 2011
9:35 am

Here’s the other thing about comparing Joe and Josh shooting 3s… Josh is very effective in the post. It is where his coach claimed he should be and it is traditionally where PFs have played. Joe is a SG… by definition he is positioned farther from the basket. For me at least, the criticism of Josh taking 3s is that he could be more effective in the post which will help balance the floor, diversify the offense and overall be beneficial to the team. Much like Josh leading a fast break isn’t the proper use of his talents, shooting 3s isn’t either. Meanwhile, Joe shooting 3s seems to be a beter use of his talents, even if his shot has been off most of this season.

vava74

March 11th, 2011
9:39 am

Would you guys think it would be an interesting idea for us the fan blog to prepare a letter to LD with our thoughts and then ask MC to deliver it?

I know that it would not amount to nothing, but at least we would vent out our frustration and help get it out of our systems.

Astro Joe

March 11th, 2011
9:59 am

vava, what do you think the blog community could agree on that could be placed in a letter to LD? Other that this has been a disappointing season?

doc

March 11th, 2011
10:26 am

o’b, i am surprised bosh has struggled so this year in finding his way. i dont know where the chemistry has faltered but it has thus far when it comes to crunch time. i sorta like the guy but didnt think i would be saying along with a few others he might be over rated.

i think northcyde did a very cool analysis of where the guys make their jumpers on the other blog. it was surprising to see josh’s “zone” is maybe close to 20 feet, and i remember, almost better than his 3-9 ft range which he is very poor at. i think as a team, they seem to not finish at the basket well in traffic (biiby had trouble with uncontested layups for a while) and tend to get as frustrated with that effort as the one of them pumping away.

najeh, jj, as he continues to shoot em up there at about 5 per game, is at 18% makes for the last 13 games from 3 or so which o’b posted we dont need to know anymore. the whole team is in a slump maybe except for horford who disappeared for two games after he shot the bulls down. just a very bad stretch for the team and to isolate one person as the cause is pure folly. also, jj has been so far off his game this year having only one jj month this year why waste time except say by now, maybe the microscope is pointed in the wrong direction.

overall, two guys have been consistent and given us what we expected pretty much night in and night out this year. it is josh and al. jj, marvin, jamal, bibby, zaza, mo, powell and teague have faltered big time for whatever reason and that is way too much to expect two guys playing to their standard to overcome. only collins came close to giving us more than what we expected and lord that aint close enough as he is about 1/5 of a complete player. and that may be giving him too much credit.

objectively, a rookie coach, injuries we didnt have last year and greater than two thirds of the team having sub par years is a recipe for disaster. here we are still not doing too badly at about what i expected from the team to land, somewhere between 44 and 48 wins. doubt though they hit the goal of sund which is elite 50 wins and 4th. so we can say with that as a measuring stick, unless the team goes deep into the second round, it is a failure of a year.

vava74

March 11th, 2011
10:29 am

Astro,

I think that we here at the Nest would have very significant issues which we would all agree on.

#1 would be how he treats Josh and how that affects the team dynamics.

LD’s “conclusion” that it’s OK for Josh to be a free spirit is utterly wrong (no discipline being needed on him).

The resulting effects: him roaming the perimeter, launching early shot clock jumpers, run the fastbreak trying (and failing miserably) to emulate Magic, launch ill advised and poorly executed full court passes, result in many wasted possessions in a game where just a few possessions are many times vital.

Basically, point out to LD that whenever you create an exception you are undermining your authority and that he cannot expect the Hawks to execute his “unique offense” when he is the one harboring two major exceptions (see #2).

Also, beyond the above is also the basic fact that it’s impossible to win consistently when both your PF and C play in the perimeter – if he wants Josh to work freely in the perimeter then he needs to use him exclusively as a SF and find a way to keep a C on the floor, even if it means using a platoon of guys to do it.

#2 would be Jamal’s minutes being excessive – point of contention, I know, but we could perhaps state that this point was not shared by all -, that his lack of discipline ruins the “shared offense” concept and on D his presence (translated on actual defensive absence) simply creates an environment that does not contribute towards a disciplined defensive effort.

Where TF is the “no lay up or you are out of here” rule that he said would be in place during the summer league?

#3 would be the huge inconsistency between what he says and what he then executes or lets being the end result (see last paragraph on #2 as one of the examples).

#4 would be linked with #3 – namely that the Hawks cannot rely on outscoring opponents to win matches: that has never been a playoff-successful type basketball and the few exceptions had wonderful one in a lifetime PGs to do it (Magic, Nash – who was just a few bad calls away from getting past the Spurs a couple of times).

Heck, I think we would have plenty to agree on and that we should simply try to send something short, but incisive enough for him to reflect on.

niremetal

March 11th, 2011
10:32 am

Vava/AJ,

Don’t think it would be a bad idea. Couldn’t hurt. I think we could agree that he says the right things and seems to realize the problems, but needs to be more willing to hold players accountable when they are causing those problems. The biggest problems, I think we can agree, are jettisoning the offense and going one on one, and settling for too many jumpers. Beyond that, there might be other problems we all can agree on as long as we talk about general problems without pointing out specific players.

vava74

March 11th, 2011
10:41 am

I think LD has put himself and Josh on the line with his latest remarks and that we can and should point out that to him.

On Jamal, I know that he is my pet project, but he is simply hurting us too much for me to let go of him…

O'Brien

March 11th, 2011
10:42 am

This was in MC’s article, but JeJe posted it on the other blog, and reading it again has left me semi-confused.

From the article;

Playing against good teams that are playing for something, you tend to lose focus on what you need to do as a team,” Drew said on Thursday before the Hawks departed for Chicago. “That’s something I don’t want to happen for us. I want us to stay focused on who we are and what we have to do on both ends of the floor.”.

What exactly is LD implying/saying? Aren’t the Hawks playing for something too?

O'Brien

March 11th, 2011
11:05 am

doc,

Although he is overated (imo), Bosh is still a very good player. i think playing with LeBron and Wade has affected him because he needs somebody to give him the ball in certain spots, and with LbJ and Wade, Bosh is not sure when/where he will get the ball, and he hasnt been aggressive enough calling for it.

However, despite all their issues playing together, Bosh is still averaging 18 and 8.

niremetal

March 11th, 2011
11:32 am

O’B,

I’m frankly semi-confused about what you’re semi-confused about. Nothing in that quote even mildly suggests that LD doesn’t think are playing for something too. It’s basically saying “when you play against a good team, it’s tougher to keep your eye on the ball.”

vava74

March 11th, 2011
11:51 am

OB,

I think what LD said is very simple: we are soft and lack an identity and that is particularly evident when we play top playoff teams.

Our guys simply do not consider themselves contenders or aspiring to contenders so whenever they play teams which are contender/aspiring to contenders, they don’t trust/stick to the game plan and look up to those teams.

However, I think LD is wrong, he is the first guy who has failed to give to this team an identity and lacks any resemblance of a plan.

He started off with our traditional line up, then moved to a big line up “against selected” opponents (ORL/Howard; MIL/Bogut) – which seemed to be a plan which was already in his mind for long, then started using that big line up almost indiscriminately and finally against one of the opponents against whom the big line up made sense (LAL) he ditched it in favor of the traditional line up, because we were not scoring enough.

O'Brien

March 11th, 2011
1:11 pm

I always thought it was tougher to keep your eye on the ball when you’re playing a bad team, because shouldnt they be motivated and focused when they are playing a good team?

joe white

March 11th, 2011
1:29 pm

The hawks need a owner who wants to win,ASG group really sucks and dont care about winning. Once we get an owner or owner’s that care about us winning we will be 4,5,6 in the east for ever

O'Brien

March 11th, 2011
1:43 pm

From the new blog;

Since January, a month when Joe was on a tear, he’s 38 of 122 (31 percent) on 3-pointers. The more time that passes since the surgery, the worst J.J.s 3-point shooting gets: 23 of 65 in January, 13 of 39 in February and 2 of 18 to start this month.

He’s 2 for 23 on 3s in his last five games. With his free-throw rate still so low, all of those missed 3-pointers are dragging down J.J.’s efficiency (not to mention his production).

J.J. said open looks haven’t been a problem. So if J.J. is getting good shots and he’s feeling good, why aren’t his 3-pointers falling?

“I don’t know,” he said. “It just happens, man. They will fall [eventually].”

He said he doesn’t change his routine during times like this.

“Playing in this league, this is my 10th year, I just try to keep a short memory,” J.J. said. “I don’t worry about the last game. I just move forward. That’s the kind of attitude you have got to have. So that’s my approach.”.

That sounds similar to nire’s comments. MC also mentioned that JJ has the highest usage rate of any Hawk, so I hope he gets it together soon.

Rufus1

March 11th, 2011
2:05 pm

We are better than this….

JJ has to find his shot and LD needs to provide an Identity and consistancy in his rotations.

If he starts a center ZaZa/Hilton/Twin, that will send a messager that we START WITH DEFENSE.(Identity)

He needs to have a consistant center rotation. We need our centers to be ready to play in the playoffs…. He is destroying their confidence with the inconsistant minutes….(atleast give them 5-10min a night)

With a center in the game , we still have 3 good jump shooters on the floor(AL, JOE and KIRK). This will also improve our rebounding and interior defense.

I prayed for years that Woody would develop and offensive system to offset his defense mindset…He didn’t.

Now I pray that LD would start a rebounding and defensive minded center to suppliment his soft, jumpshooting approach….. Prayer is all I got left for this team.

Astro Joe

March 11th, 2011
2:46 pm

Astro Joe

March 11th, 2011
2:54 pm

I suggested that Stern would decapitate SVG for his comments a few days ago. While he didn’t go quite that far, it appears that he may have come real close.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=6202323

Ken Strickland

March 11th, 2011
3:14 pm

We can debate what we feel is the cause our current problems all day, but it’s not just any one thing. But right now the primary cause is due to our players having to adjust to a PG that controls the ball, but doesn’t yet know the OFF, and our 2 key offensive players trying to shoot themselves out of prolonged shooting slumps.

This problem makes it difficult for us to effectively utilize our OFF sets when closing out gms.

Ken Strickland

March 11th, 2011
3:27 pm

RUFUS1-JCollins isn’t a good matchup to Noah, who’s quicker, faster and lot more athletic. Plus, while Noah isn’t much of a scorer, he’s a very good rebounder who can use that to be an effective inside scorer if not matched up properly. While Armstrong has yet to prove he’s a strong rebounder, he can certainly match Noah’s speed, quickness, athleticism, and provide better help DEF.

A frontline of JSmoove(SF), HArmstrong(C), and AHorford(PF), would be a very good matchup to the Bulls frontline.

Astro Joe

March 11th, 2011
3:50 pm

But right now the primary cause is due to our players having to adjust to a PG that controls the ball, but doesn’t yet know the OFF

I couldn’t disgaree more. If I made a list of top 5 problems, that one would be somewhere around #79.

Rufus1

March 11th, 2011
3:54 pm

Ken

I agree with your line-up for the Bulls, I just want a center to start. Maybe we could adjust the center per the match-up.

The extra bonus is the bench depth it would create.

Most good teams don’t start their 5 best offensive players, each team(ie, Dallas and Chandler)has 1 defensive minded starter. The Hawks had Josh Smith, last year…sadly that isn’t the case anymore.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 11th, 2011
4:03 pm

“Besides…what is there to pick up? Confusion and disarray?”

Haha word. Good point.

doc

March 11th, 2011
4:05 pm

aj he didnt lose his head but list his tongue, real old biblical punishments.

guess the take away from ld comments could be carried over tothe team, too open because of the good offense and guys are hesitating before shooting. :-)

yeah, that’s the ticket!

Najeh Davenpoop

March 11th, 2011
4:54 pm

No Boozer just means more Gibson, and the Bulls have done just fine with Gibson getting big minutes this season. No Deng, though, means more Korver, and the Hawks showed in their previous meeting that when they attack Korver with pretty much anyone they are capable of succeeding. LD would be smart to run some plays where Joe gets matched up on Korver inside the 3 point line. That’s the kind of matchup that could get Joe out of his slump.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 11th, 2011
4:56 pm

Anyway, the Bulls don’t have the league’s second best home record by accident. As long as Rose is playing, tonight’s game is going to be really tough.

O'Brien

March 11th, 2011
5:13 pm

Najeh,

Anytime a team is top 5 in defense, they always have a chance. But the key for the Hawks will be the same as it always is. Will they make enough jump shots? And if jumpers are not falling, will they find a way to get to the hoops?

LD would be smart to run some plays where Joe gets matched up on Korver inside the 3 point line..

Is there plays to run, or is it to just allow JJ to go ISO vs Korver?

Astro Joe

March 11th, 2011
6:26 pm

LD has historically opted not to run in road games…. which has clearly been a successful strategy given the team’s very good road record. But if jumpers aren’t falling, it seems like unleashing the once formidable fast break attack would be wise.

Remember last year when were top 5 in fast break points? I think CP3 was our PG, right? Clearly, it wasn’t that other guy who is so awful at running a fast break that our PF has no other choice but to do it himself.

Big Ray

March 11th, 2011
6:44 pm

No Boozer just means more Gibson, and the Bulls have done just fine with Gibson getting big minutes this season. No Deng, though, means more Korver, and the Hawks showed in their previous meeting that when they attack Korver with pretty much anyone they are capable of succeeding. LD would be smart to run some plays where Joe gets matched up on Korver inside the 3 point line. That’s the kind of matchup that could get Joe out of his slump.

Excellent point.

niremetal

March 11th, 2011
7:13 pm

It honestly doesn’t feel to me like Joe’s in a “slump” in the usual sense of that word. He isn’t shooting a terrible percentage. He just seems more disinterested than before the break. Maybe he’s saving himself for the playoffs. I dunno. I’d actually be less concerned if it simply were a matter of him shooting terribly from the field, but he’s not (although he is shooting terribly from 3-land). But it doesn’t just seem to me that it’s his shot that’s off.

Ken Strickland

March 11th, 2011
7:44 pm

NIREMETAL-Do you think Hinrich controlling the ball, which limits JJ’s ball dominance, along with our limited ability to run our full OFF sets, has had anything to do with what you preceive as JJ’s disinterest?
One thing is certain, something is certainly affecting the ability of both JJ and Jamal to be consistent.

Ken Strickland

March 11th, 2011
7:48 pm

DRMARYB-Where are you young lady? I haven’t heard from you lately.

Melvin

March 11th, 2011
8:38 pm

Hawks are not even a threat to take anyone off the dribble… And do Joe still play for the Hawks. My goodness, his game is off…

Melvin

March 11th, 2011
8:46 pm

Dont know why LD is playing Marvin extended mins. He’s doing nothing.

Melvin

March 11th, 2011
8:50 pm

Yall may beat me up for this but I think the Hawks matchup better with the Bulls than any of the top four teams in the East….

niremetal

March 11th, 2011
9:09 pm

doc

March 11th, 2011
9:13 pm

nire, at first look, i am just left with mouth open gaping after your 7:13 statement. geez, what is he, 2 for 25 in the last five games? what does it take for reality to hit that jj along with jamal have bombed out this season in comparison to expectation from last season. it may be why you were so complacent about what needed to be done in the off season when folks suggested this might be the path.

you are right though, he shows absolutely no emotion whether he makes or misses, whether you call it disinterest or not. he is 29% from three this year and pumping away. really the problem is, maybe he is just not that good because he is only avg two points less a game this year as in years past. maybe it is a function of the contract gets in the way of us all seeing him for what he is a good player incapable of really putting the team on his back for long stretches. gosh, i hope he finds his touch soon.

meanwhile, we keep it close in chi-town, leading at the half.

shout out dmb.

Big Ray

March 11th, 2011
9:25 pm

Melvin ,

I would have disagreed with you prior to the arrival of Kirk Hinrich. But with him here, you could be right.

Big Ray

March 11th, 2011
9:27 pm

Ken ,

No way. JJ’s issues, whatever they may be, existed before Hinrich got here. I think I know where you’re going with this anyway, though…

niremetal

March 11th, 2011
9:38 pm

Doc,

Gape all you want. No shooters stop shooting just because they hit a slump. His pre-surgery slump seemed to be caused by his injury, and then there was a stretch for 5 weeks in Jan/Feb where he shot 38% from deep. I am not aware of a single player in the NBA who has had JJ’s sustained success as an outside shooter over the course of his career who has decided to just stop shooting because he hits a slump. You’re expecting JJ to do something that no player does.

Most of y’all seriously are becoming caricatures of yourselves. No matter what actually happens during games, you bash the same players you always bash and defend the same ones you always defend. Playing devil’s advocate is becoming quite dull.

Big Ray

March 11th, 2011
9:45 pm

Doc ,

I see Niremetal’s point. JJ is shooting 44% from the field, which is right in line with his career average. Sure, we’d rather see %45-%47, and we’d be more impressed if his scoring average for the season had a “2″ in front of it instead of a “1.” And, he’s really only averaging 2 less ppg than last season.

Here’s more detail that makes it feel like a slump –

1) Joe has had just six 30 point games this season. He had 11 of those last season, though we have to take into account the fact that this was over the course of a full 82 games. This year, he has only played 71 games. But it’s unlikely he will have 5 more 30 point games in the last 12 contests. Either way, 30 point games aren’t a real test of whether a guy is in a slump. It’s just a small sample size of simple stats, not much else.

2) Joe has had 13 games where he has scored 12 points or less, and 22 games where he has scored 15 points or less. And, that is after 71 games.

Compare that to last season, where Joe had just 10 games of 12 points or less and just 16 games of 15 points or less…. all season long .

3) His %29 shooting from 3 point land is 7 whole percentage points below last year’s, and his worst since 2001. It ain’t pretty.

Do any of these stats prove that Joe is “in a slump?”

No.

But they are all noticeable. Enough so to where not everybody is comfortable with his performance.

niremetal

March 11th, 2011
9:49 pm

Sorry doc, thought you were referring to my earlier posts, not my 7:13. With my 7:13, I think you just need to work on your reading comprehension, although that’s a running theme with you.

niremetal

March 11th, 2011
9:51 pm

I read my 7:13 again and then your response, doc. Yeah, you kinda need to get some reading comp lessons.

Big Ray

March 11th, 2011
9:56 pm

Should JJ stop shooting? Of course not. Might he change the way he is trying to get his points? Yes, to an extent (go to the basket more). Was this new offensive scheme supposed to make it easier for him to get his shots without dealing with as many double teams? Yes. Has it worked? No, not always.

And nobody has a proveable explanation for why he had such a wonderful January and has not been nearly as impressive for the rest of the season. The injury was a good explanation for the pre-surgery part. The rest? Who knows.

But, something has to give at some point. If this performance level continues, the wisdom in awarding him such a huge contract will continue to draw criticism (if not increased criticism), especially where it relates to the continued theme of not approaching the luxury tax level to improve the team. It is what it is.

Big Ray

March 11th, 2011
10:01 pm

Niremetal ,

Would it be correct to assume that you feel like JJ is having other issues than just his 3 point shot being off? As in, there is another, possibly deeper issue (thus the comments about him being disinterested)?

If so, that’s how I see it as well. I don’t know if it’s the offense, or if it’s just the cultural poisoning that seems to keep going on. LD clearly doesn’t have the reins to this wagon anymore, if you ask me. The team chemistry isn’t getting any better until someone actually messes with the core and makes a change at that level. Until then, even such solid moves as bringing in someone like Hinrich isn’t going to have the effect we need it to.

Nothing changes until this summer (hopefully), I’m afraid. If JJ is disinterested, there is surely a reason why.

Big Ray

March 11th, 2011
10:07 pm

Derrick Rose simply cannot be stopped. He’s getting a lot done from the charity stripe since we’ve caused him issues in the way of shooting percentage.

However, I’m sure this will spawn some of the usual spewage, considering Jeff Teague got ZERO minutes so far in this game, and we all know that if he had played, we coulda stopped Rose short, right? :twisted:

Actually, solid performance from a lot of Chicago’s role players. I seem to recall them getting a complete dismissal from some corners during the offseason, but the dividends are paying themselves even as we watch. Hard to make that argument now with Chicago on the verge of their 46th victory…

…a place we are suddenly hard-pressed to get to. 46 victories, that is…

niremetal

March 11th, 2011
10:08 pm

Ray,

With your 10:01, you got exactly what I was getting at.

Big Ray

March 11th, 2011
10:08 pm

And my stats from earlier had a couple of mistakes. We’ve played 64 games, not 71.

Big Ray

March 11th, 2011
10:09 pm

Nire ,

Gotcha. Thought that was your train of thought. Couldn’t agree more.

Big Ray

March 11th, 2011
10:17 pm

Another sub-80 point game. Not good at all. Well that whole thing was nice and ugly.

Here’s a funny one…Jamal had one of the better games, statisitcally at least. Cue rant of dissension from Vava :twisted:

Ugly. Ugly. Ugly. Ugly…

Elsewhere, Philly beat Boston.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 11th, 2011
10:19 pm

After that second half, I would like to formally apologize for any good things I have ever said about LD.

Jamal was almost single-handedly responsible for Rose’s 3rd quarter explosion, and LD chose to leave him in there to get torched while Teague sat on the bench. Absolutely ridiculous.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 11th, 2011
10:19 pm

Blog monster

Najeh Davenpoop

March 11th, 2011
10:22 pm

“However, I’m sure this will spawn some of the usual spewage, considering Jeff Teague got ZERO minutes so far in this game, and we all know that if he had played, we coulda stopped Rose short, right? :twisted:

Rose’s 3rd quarter explosion directly coincided with Hinrich going to the bench and Jamal playing the point for the rest of the quarter. vava74 would be completely justified in ripping Jamal for his defense in this game, but more importantly, for LD to just continue to roll with Jamal vs. Rose without even trying Teague was flat out idiotic.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 11th, 2011
10:23 pm

I mean, it’s not like Jamal being on the floor ahead of Teague resulted in better offense. The Hawks scored a grand total of 26 points in the second half, 20 prior to Teague entering the game with the scrubs in garbage time.

O'Brien

March 11th, 2011
10:42 pm

Big Ray,

Teague would not have stopped Rose, but we have seen Jamal fail time and time again as the backup PG, but yet LD continues to go to him at that positon. Whatever happened to giving Teague more burn since he played decent on defense after the trade? Is this how you build his confidence?

It’s like LD is saying “Jeff, sit and watch our backup SG (who probably wont be here next year) get torched on defense playing backup PG (which happens often), even though you are a better defensive option. Oh dont worry, we’ll get you some garbage minutes when the game is out of hand.”

niremetal

March 11th, 2011
10:43 pm

Round up the usual suspects.

O'Brien

March 11th, 2011
10:52 pm

Big Ray, nire,

Whatever the problem is, I think JJ is a part of it. if it’s the culture, well, he has been the captain for years, and all we have heard is he leads by example. If he is unhappy about something, he needs to speak up, and I dont get the impression that he says much.

O'Brien

March 11th, 2011
10:59 pm

I dont know what’s going on with these Hawks. i would have liked to hear LD’s post game. That being said, Rick has put the players on notice, but things are getting worse.

Usual suspects?

1) Jamal: bad defense on Rose, 4 turnovers
2) Marvin: 1-5 in 18 minutes
3) JJ: Only 16, 4 and 2
4) Al: 8 shot attempts, 7 rebounds in 40 minutes
5) Josh: 4 turnovers
6) Team: 4th quarter scoring
7) LD: Cannot reign in the players, doesnt always backup up his words

And the list goes on. Its hard for the Hawks to win when they have so many usual suspects.

niremetal

March 11th, 2011
11:10 pm

O’B,

I think there are 99 problems with this team, and many of the things that JJ does are on that list. Like I’ve always said, I’m a counterpuncher when it comes to blogging. When someone starts bashing Josh and blaming him for the failings of this team, I play devil’s advocate then too. But that doesn’t happen much around here. Same with Al.

My “round up the usual suspects” line is meant as a tongue-in-cheek reference to the fact that no matter what goes on in a particular game, most the people around here point their finger at the people they always point to. Ken will point to our starting PG, Astro will point to LD, vava will point to Jamal, you will point to JJ, Melvin will point to JJ/Marvin, doc will point to JJ/Jamal, etc, etc, etc.

In any case, the problems are painfully obvious on both ends of the floor. But the players don’t seem to care enough to fix them, and the coach doesn’t seem to have what it takes to get them to care.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 11th, 2011
11:34 pm

Smoove tries to do too much, Al doesn’t try to do enough, Joe has his usual decent but unspectacular and ultimately unimpactful game, Marvin disappears, Zaza disappears, Jamal gives up two points for every point he scores, and LD’s substitution patterns are straight out of the bizarro world.

There’s your game. What’s new.

Big Ray

March 11th, 2011
11:35 pm

Najeh ,

Don’t take my post about the “usual spewage” to be a shot at you or anyone else. All I’m saying is two things:

1) Rose is having an MVP season. He can’t be stopped. Not by Jeff Teague, not by anybody. Rose went to the foul line 15 times, and I only count 4 fouls on Hinrich (and Zero on Jamal), so that means the dude was determined to get something done.

2)No doubt Teague would have done better defending Rose than Jamal ever would. But, Teague may have added to those trips to the foul line. And if you look at the box score, you can see that Rose wasn’t missing when he got there (14-15). In my opinion, that would not have won us the game.

Having said that, I agree that trying Teague is something LD could/should have done.

ONLY….

I think I know precisely why he did what he did. It’s been the same problem all year long. And don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying I agree , just that I understand . Big difference between the two.

Fact is, LD’s vaunted offense isn’t producing points. The players aren’t producing points. Take your pick of which you’d rather blame, or combine them however you like. Yet another game, we can’t even reach 80 points. Al feel short, JJ fell short, Marvin hardly existed, Smoove fell short.

Hinrich plays less than 30 minutes and gets into foul trouble (because he WILL play defense). Who do you put in? Another guy who will get into foul trouble against Rose, or a guy who might make 50% of his shots or more?

LD is going to go offense every time, just like his predecessor.

Again, not saying it’s wrong or right, just saying it is what it is.

Big Ray

March 11th, 2011
11:37 pm

New blog up, and Niremetal dang near spoils my theme with the last paragraph of his 11:10 pm. post.

How dare you be thinking what I’m thinking at the same time! LOL…

Big Ray

March 11th, 2011
11:44 pm

Kirk Hinrich proves my point:

Hinrich was asked how the Hawks held down D-Rose last time: “He missed shots.”

Najeh Davenpoop

March 11th, 2011
11:53 pm

Dude, I never take anything as a “shot at me”.