Atlanta hawks: Is disarray here to stay?

A tale of three team captains 

When the Hawks lose, you can ask Joe Johnson what happened. He is likely to tell you he doesn’t know. You can ask Al Horford. He’ll likely tell you what the problem was, and all but name who was responsible for it. You can also ask Josh Smith. He’ll tell you that the team will get their heads together, they are a tight knit group, and everything will be okay. Is any of this confidence inspiring? Why are they all saying different things?

Let us get one thing out on the table, and it is something that some of you/us have already been saying since the beginning of the season. It was a mistake for Larry Drew to name three team captains. Or do you disagree? Let’s extend that even further – it was a mistake to name Josh Smith as a team captain. Perhaps you disagree more vehemently with this than the first assertion. Perhaps not. Either way, can anybody prove this was a successful venture or even a good idea? These three team captains don’t think alike. They don’t play alike. They don’t react alike. In fact, I’m feeling a bit hard-pressed to come up with something that they have in common at all. It seems that Larry Drew tried to force this team into forming its own locker room and on-court leadership. But his idea of putting three guys into such a position resulted in what looks like more confusion, which has done nothing to increase leadership. Three guys, one position. One seems like he never really felt destined to be a leader, and maybe he should have had that burden thrown on him. Another doesn’t know how to follow, so how can he lead? The third can’t lead if others won’t follow. How was this supposed to work again?

From the Sidelines

Mike Woodson’s tactics, leadership, and his overall body of work was questioned, and it led to him parting ways with the Hawks. General Manager Rick Sund then proclaimed that the Hawks needed to “hear a different voice.” So, he brought them (perhaps at the behest of his host of bosses) a familiar voice and placed that voice in the big chair. Perhaps the results have spoken for themselves. You hear a familiar but previously quiet voice saying the same things the old voice used to say. It seems the “different” voice begins to show signs of strain and frustration. The different voice seems to have given in. The different voice doesn’t know what to do. The different voice screams accountability, but can’t follow through. The different voice…doesn’t seem so different after all. Of course, its not just about the voice.

Here is where one of Larry Drew’s biggest problems may be brewing: with Josh Smith. We used to not like it when Mike Woodson and Josh Smith got after each other. But, at least Woody got after him. And, Josh got after Woody. It wasn’t good. Josh doesn’t get after Drew. Why? Maybe because Drew doesn’t get after him.  Drew has  agreed to disagree with his team captain on how to play the game. Worse, he’s made this known through public quotes. How in the world can you get an entire team to listen to you when one of the team captains is allowed to disagree with you and do what he wants to do? That’s not to say that Josh isn’t a good player, or even a good person. He has shown more maturity (or at least it seems like it) in most areas, and has put up some pretty good numbers. But….can a team operate like this, when one of its best players is constantly at odds with the head coach on such basic things as when to take certain shots or when to let the point guard run the break?

Let me put this another way – if you can’t convince a team captain not to take long jumpers at the wrong times, then how can you convince the rest of the team to not do so? Just watch the games. See how many long jumpers are being taken, regardless of how unsuccessful that venture turns out to be. Then watch how many times Larry Drew talks about taking too many long jumpers after a loss. And, it’s not just Josh Smith by a long shot. It’s a bunch of guys. Unfortunately, Josh is a team captain, which puts things in a slightly different light.

This isn’t the only problem. Maybe this isn’t really a big problem. Maybe it is. What do you think?

Breaking in the new guys

The arrival of Kirk Hinrich really helped Atlanta on the defensive end, but as scores and fourth quarter numbers have indicated, that’s not all there is to the story. The problem with the offense is that this is where the leadership of this team (or lack thereof) really suffers. A guy like Hinrich knows how to play the game. How long before he becomes frustrated with the way the Hawks play? Everybody within the organization and the fan base can talk about Hinrich’s leadership and toughness until they are blue in the face. It won’t matter. Why? Because we have three team captains already. How is a guy like Hinrich to have a positive effect when all he can do is try to lead by example (something we’ve recognized as a good but incomplete form of leadership)? Can Hinrich even say anything in the locker room? Who will listen?

On the flip side of the coin, Hilton Armstrong has it easier than his backcourt teammate. All he has to do is provide energy, defend the rim and the paint, and grab some rebounds. Maybe even set some screens on offense and be ready to score at the rim if he actually receives the ball. Of course, Armstrong can’t be certain of his role, as neither can Zaza Pachulia (who is very playing-time sensitive) or Jason Collins. Drew doesn’t seem to know what he wants to do with his bench or his frontcourt some days.

More confusion, more disarray. 

If Larry Drew and the Hawks aren’t careful, they’ll stunt their own internal growth.

The Final Word….

……comes from General Manager Rick Sund. The normally quiet Sund stated before the deadline that the onus was on this team to prove who they were and what they were capable of. He said that this team would show itself and be judged on what they did through the final stretch of the season, and in the playoffs. By saying this, Sund also put the burden on himself and his bosses. After all, if the proof is in what this team does, and the team falls below expectations, or simply last year’s accomplishments, then who else can be responsible for the final product?

Sund says this core is at the witness stand. He’s right. And after they testify, he’ll be going to the stand next. This summer, in fact.

Call it Now

Hope springs eternal, but its not the offseason yet. Forget gaining ground for now, can the Hawks even maintain their current position? Is this just a late season rut, or is the writing on the wall? If patterns hold where they are, the Hawks face the Magic in round 1 of the playoffs? Can they survive that?

Your call…

 

Big Ray, Hawks Fan Nest

286 comments Add your comment

E43

March 9th, 2011
11:31 am

Astro Joe- The ownership is beginning to exhibit signs of wanting to relocate. I say it because this is the same ownership that lied to the public about the sale of the Atlanta thrashers. The fact that They’re that desperate to make money tells me that there’s something that we simply don’t know about. I’m not a professional or anything but selling your opponents gear AT THE ARENA just tells me that they are coming much closer to giving up on the city of Atlanta. This is somewhat similar to what happened to Seattle(even though that was a completely different situation). Their fans came out completely surprised when truth be told the signs were always there. I’m pretty sure that at some point the ownership will come out and announce a meeting that contemplates the relocation of the team just to get a response from hawks fans.

Astro Joe

March 9th, 2011
12:07 pm

E43, maybe I have my head in the sand but I’m not overly concerned with the prospect of the Hawks leaving town. If the Pistons could find potential buyers in that struggling market than surely the ASG can find someone to “dispose” of these properties in Atlanta.

O'Brien

March 9th, 2011
12:51 pm

AJ,

If I drink what Rufus is drinking, then I could believe that the $30 Kobe t-shirt will lead to more money spent on the Hawks (e.g. competent college scouts, a better summer league team, a statistician, etc.). .

You mean like the $3 mil they got for selling a draft pick?

It doesnt bother me as much that the owners were selling other teams gear, because I know they need the money. However, I dont want to hear them implying that Hawks fans are to blame.

doc

March 9th, 2011
2:24 pm

rufus 1 ….. Jamal only played 22min last night.

for vava it was an eternity. ;-)

at some point the team’s slump will be over or we will have continued misery as we drop to seventh.

doc

March 9th, 2011
2:30 pm

sales of opponents jerseys? no prob as i am sure it will go right back into making it a better product for people like me that buy season tix and sit next to those yellow and midnight blue clad folks in the stand ripping our guys and yelling out mvp to their guys. right nire?

when will jj give me the chance to do the same or owners get a real mvp type player? isnt he paid to do thse things?

O'Brien

March 9th, 2011
3:10 pm

doc,

when will jj give me the chance to do the same or owners get a real mvp type player? isnt he paid to do thse things?.

For this season, January is the only month (imo) where JJ put up MVP type numbers over a consistent period of time.

But so far, he is underperforming compared to his contract.

E43

March 9th, 2011
3:17 pm

Astro Joe- The hawks will likely remain. I just dont trust them (ownership) to do anything by heart. It will always be a business decision. The only decisions that they made by heart was signing Al Horford and Damien Wilkins/Mario West who have or had earned their contracts. Everything else has been a decision influenced by making the most money today/right now.

gary

March 9th, 2011
4:11 pm

The problem with the Hawks is Joe Johnston. A superstar does not disappear against a quality team. He is payed like a superstar but plays like a bench player. He has the Hawks handcuffed for the next four or five years, great move Ric Sund on giving superstar money to a guy who plays like a reserve agains quality teams. We could not trade him because no one will take that inflated contract. Nice going Hawks management

Astro Joe

March 9th, 2011
5:05 pm

E43, I don’t trust the ASG to do anything but enter into another lawsuit.

O'Brien

March 9th, 2011
6:13 pm

How many games did it take for JJ and the Hawks to figure this out? From MC’s new blog;

J.J. may have gotten to the crux of the matter when asked today if the way for the Hawks to get their offense back on track is to attack the basket.

“Maybe,” he said. “But you look at a jump-shooting team–we are a jump-shooting team. If shots are falling then, great, we are rolling. But one through five, we all are jump shooters. That’s pretty much what it is.. MC.

httphttp://blogs.ajc.com/hawks/2011/03/09/atlanta-hawks-j-j-we-all-are-jump-shooters-thats-pretty-much-what-it-is/?cp=3#comment-182780/

The interesting point to me, is his comments imply that our starting Center and PF are both jump shooters too. And I think thats exactly what Al and Josh would consider themselves to be.

Its also proof to me that Teague deserves more PT, because as we all know, he is not a jump shooter :smile:

niremetal

March 9th, 2011
6:35 pm

67% of Teague’s attempts this year have been jumpshots:
http://www.82games.com/1011/10ATL2.HTM

Not Sund

March 9th, 2011
7:32 pm

Either we dismantle this team (unlikely/impossible) or we thank L.D. for one wonderful season of jumpshots and get a strong coach in here.
Someone who will put Smoove’s ace in the lane and make him stay there. Someone who will call J.J. out for only playing aggressively in January when he is working for a spot on the allstar team. Someone who will define a roll for Duck. In short, someone who will coach this team.
Al and Kirk will be fine, they know how to play.

Let’s go Braves!!

Big Ray

March 9th, 2011
8:25 pm

E43 ,

Never fear. Atlanta will have an NBA basketball team whether the Hawks move or not (and I don’t think the ASG is actually trying to move the team). Stern and Co are not going to let this market dry up, regardless of how bad attendance might be.

The same attendance issues aren’t going to chase Arthur Blank or the owner of the Braves away, either.

Big Ray

March 9th, 2011
8:26 pm

O’brien ,

Scary, isn’t it? Just plain scary.

O'Brien

March 9th, 2011
8:41 pm

From Hoopinionblog.com;

Joe Johnson: “[W]e are a jump-shooting team. If shots are falling then, great, we are rolling. But one through five, we all are jump shooters. That’s pretty much what it is.”

As Josh Smith approaches taking half of his shots from outside of 16 feet, Al Horford adds the corner 3 and the step-back 18-footer to his arsenal, and Johnson is on pace for another career low Free Throw Rate this must surely be the apex of one-dimensional inefficiency if not also self-awareness, at least in Johnson’s case.

ESPN’s new director of analytics, Dean Oliver, in essay about the Miami Heat addresses two topics relevant to the sputtering Atlanta offense: over-dribbling and the absence of the -roll part of the pick-and-roll..

shootermagavin

March 9th, 2011
9:10 pm

They traded the wrong guy. Smith is a good ball player, but that’s it. No, he isn’t an all star, and no, he is not very bright. The problem with people who aren’t smart is, they make bad decisions, and (because they aren’t smart) don’t know they’re making them (because, you guessed it).

He’ll never learn from his mistakes, because he doesn’t have the brain power to know he’s making them. It sure is great he’s from Atlanta….SUPER! but that, sadly, doesn’t make him any smarter, or any better a ball player.

niremetal

March 9th, 2011
10:05 pm

That’s the first “Josh is stupid” post we’ve seen around here in awhile.

I think there is a difference between intelligence and focus/maturity. I think Josh has the raw intelligence. He sees the court, he knows how to throw a pump fake, time a block, etc. He just chooses to take the easy way out. He’s like the kid who could get straight A’s if he focused, but is happy goofing off a bit and getting a B-average.

Melvin

March 9th, 2011
10:41 pm

Watching the Magic/Kings game. If Dwight and DeMarcus keep going at it like this, they will be fighting before the game is over….

Najeh Davenpoop

March 9th, 2011
10:58 pm

“Stern and Co are not going to let this market dry up, regardless of how bad attendance might be. ”

If nothing else, the fact that this place routinely sells out when marquee superstars show up should show the league that there is a fan base waiting to be tapped in this market, and the DASG has just done a p-ss poor job of tapping it.

marvin

March 9th, 2011
11:38 pm

The coach joe johnson Marvin Williams oh god who want to play for the hawks with these guys I seen joe in the stands eatin pop corn well he should have been anyway with Marvin William man Marvin William Plays like hes about 37 are 38 and on the downs side of his career always misses key jumpers maybe he should loose the mouth pieace Lets go after greg oden and put al horford at PF I Know Odens knees we dont have nothin to loose anyway at this rate we can bust up the team and see can we get some new Blood in

Ed

March 10th, 2011
2:27 am

In the Wizards awful loss to Milwaukee JC went for 22pts; 4 rebs; & 3 assists on 9-17 shooting in 27 mins. We are going to regret letting him go…he has that moxie that everyone wants Teague to have. The way I see it, you either have it or you don’t, and Crawford has it and Teagure doesn’t. The Hawks finally get a draft pick right on a guard and give him up without giving the kid a chance.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 10th, 2011
2:32 am

“We are going to regret letting him go…he has that moxie that everyone wants Teague to have. ”

Or maybe the Hawks let him go before they had a chance to squash that “moxie” out of him, the way they did to Acie and Teague.

Ken Strickland

March 10th, 2011
4:04 am

The Hawks not drafting DWilliams, CPaul and BRoy was the best thing that could have happened for them and the NBA. If we had drafted either player he would have gotten the WOODY TREATMENT, and the NBA would have been without one of it’s current All Stars and best players.

I don’t understand this stupid bias towards young PG’s that both Woodson and Drew seem to share. They would rather burden the team by playing a regressing, over the hill, liability of a PG, and risk losing their jobs, than make an honest attempt to develop a young PG.

While ALaw and JTeague have their issues on OFF, they certainly don’t have any issues on DEF. But the bias of Drew and Woodson is so strong they can’t bring themselves to even take advantage of what the younger players can do well. Until we hire a HC that’s committed to doing more than paying lip service when it comes to developing a young PG, the Hawks will continue wasting draft picks and money, and having problems at the position.

vava74

March 10th, 2011
4:55 am

nire,

A few commentaries on that stat on Teague:

A) tear drops from close are probably considered jump shots.
B) when given minutes and his confidence got a boost, Teague went to the rack often and was getting stronger at it.
C) when Teague went to the rack on the games he started/had good minutes and he dis not finish well, he got fouls or we got put backs (one by Al, one by Smoove) in several of those attempts.

dub366

March 10th, 2011
7:02 am

you all can say what u want the problem is joe johnson he suppose to be your superstar can’t avg 20 point a game that your problem .you run the play and the ball stop with joe.

vava74

March 10th, 2011
11:21 am

Another small mitigating factor:

Everyone, I mean everyone, is saying that the Lakers are clicking on all cylinders right now and had a terrific game in ATL.

Top to bottom, from ESPN to FOXSPORTS, everywhere.

And even so, we were 8 down in the 4th with poor execution eliminating our chances of a real come back…

Najeh Davenpoop

March 10th, 2011
11:39 am

“Everyone, I mean everyone, is saying that the Lakers are clicking on all cylinders right now and had a terrific game in ATL.”

I think we’d all be a lot more willing to buy that if the Hawks hadn’t just come off losses to the Perkins-less Thunder and the Chauncey-less Knicks. The Lakers loss may be a “quality loss” but it comes in the middle of an extended slump for the team, and that game didn’t do much to erase lingering doubts about this team’s recent level of play.

vava74

March 10th, 2011
12:14 pm

Najeh,

You are right, but I said “small mitigating factor” not “we are off the hook factor”.

We are still dealing with Hinrich arrival and with the fact that LD is completely over his head.

We MAY eventually settle out game before the playoffs and at least look competitive.

Also, I would like to know WTF has happened to JJ since he was selected for the ASG, from that moment on his game just went south.

He is either hurt – again – on his elbow or he is mentally broken down with something which is displeasing him, like last year after midway the MIL series when he went from bona fide all-NBA to scrub in less than 4 seconds…

vava74

March 10th, 2011
12:19 pm

The bare fact is that with JJ shooting like he is right now (in particular from 3 point land), it is very difficult to win games (some of his 3 point misses have been back-breakers).

We would be better off with him off the floor all together.

At one point in the Lakers game he had an open look for 3 from the top and instead of “just shooting it”, he hesitated and the whole shooting motion was un-natural and clumsy.

It looked almost like Josh’s bad 3 point attempts when before he starts the motion there is an instant of hesitation and then the shooting motion is done with too much thought in it.

Najeh Davenpoop

March 10th, 2011
12:43 pm

If the Hawks had a coach who could actually get his players to do something, Joe would have been de-emphasized in the offense by now. Joe may be the Hawks’ best offensive player (maybe) but the offense clearly functions worse when run through him, and that’s even when he’s playing well. When he is playing poorly, any possession run through him is a wasted one.

Pick and rolls with Smoove and Al and post ups for Smoove should be the bread and butter of this offense, and Al should lead the team in jump shot attempts (as opposed to Joe, Smoove, or Jamal).

Astro Joe

March 10th, 2011
1:00 pm

Najeh, that is part of the problem with the “move the ball until you get a good shot” offense, shots come from all over the place. My guess is that for the past few weeks, Josh has come very close to equaling Joe’s FGAs but Josh isn’t anywhere close to the paint.

E43

March 10th, 2011
1:02 pm

Big Ray- Atlanta is what it is. Its still a growing city despite some of the pains we endure. TNT NBA TV and CNN must see some kind of potential one way or the other.
I

E43

March 10th, 2011
1:10 pm

I think that there is way too much panic among hawks fans. Imagine what south beach folks are going through right now. This years east is very unpredictable. Miami Orlando and Atlanta have not met their expectations but I guarantee that the Celtics want nothing to do with the Hawks in a playoff series. Chicago wants nothing to do with Orlando and the Knicks probably don’t want to go through south beach. I think the best thing to do is to just calm down watch this thing play out and if it doesn’t play out well we at least know that we only need one more piece(true center) to be contenders. Right now the back and fourth bad team good thing is just premature.

O'Brien

March 10th, 2011
1:18 pm

vava,

In his last 4 games, JJ is shooting 6% from 3 (1-18, and only 5-6 from the FT line).

We get on Josh for his shot selection (and rightfully so), but why has JJ taken 18 three-pointers in 4 games, when it is clear he is struggling (and he has struggled from 3 all season)? And then he only has 6 FTA in 4 games?

He complained when Kobe baited the ref into giving him 3 FTs (rightfully so, because JJ didn’t touch him), but that’s what good players do, especially when their shot isn’t falling. Find a way to get to the line or at the very least, drive the ball.

But I agree with Najeh. There is a mental block on the team because of JJ (imo). Everybody (coach and players) consistently look to him to make the big shot, to come through in crunch time, to go to him when we need a bucket, and recently, we are not having enough success to justify continuously doing that.

dap01

March 10th, 2011
1:23 pm

To ASG, Hawks management, Hawks Coaches: You could not have possible done worse than you have in your present capacities.

niremetal

March 10th, 2011
1:46 pm

O’Brien,

Again, you can’t expect shooters who have shot well for their entire career to stop shooting because they are in a shooting slump. No. One. Does. That. No one. At all. Ever. You can’t get through a slump if you stop shooting altogether. Even in a particular game, you can miss the first two threes and then rattle off 4 in a row in the second half.

It’s just remarkable that so many people have a mentality that basically expects players (at least the ones they aren’t huge fans of) to have a clairvoyant ability to see when a slump will start/end.

Ken Strickland

March 10th, 2011
3:03 pm

When JJ played for the Suns he played without the ball, but he also played with one of the best PG’s in NBA history. For the past 6yrs he’s been used as a one on one player(ISO), even though he lacks effective one on one skills. Over this 6yr period, he not only had to play without the benefit of a decent PG, he was usually required to compensate for our PG shortcomings.

As far as productivity and recognition is concerned, he’s been very successful, as his 4 consecutive All Star selections prove. MWoodson was very focused on trying to get certain players selected to the All Star gm. It appears some of our players are still focused on that goal, and started controlling the ball and the off in order to increase their numbers.

This was very evident with JJ and Jamal, since both missed parts of the season due to injuries, and felt they had to make a statement to get noticed. The Motion and High Low OFF’s, which were so effective earlier in the season and allowed us to overcome the absense of both players, were replaced by the ISO dominated OFF of the past as soon as they returned.

Now we have LDrew adding to the problem by rushing Hinrich into the starting lineup before he was ready. I guess Drew figured he could do what he and Woodson were unable to do, and that’s gain control of our more strong willed and disruptive players.

How in the hell can Hinrich be expected to gain control of All Stars, or All Star caliber players, when he doesn’t know anything about the OFF, DEF, HC, organization, expectations, ownership, GM, or the players? LDrew seems to be conflicted. On one hand, he tries to show he’s not a Woody clone, but as the season progresses we see him repeatedly making the same illadvised decisions and reverting to the same stupid habits/bias’ that characterized MWoodson’s tenue.

I think certain players are taking advantage of Hinrich not knowing our OFF systems, as well as Drew’s heavy and premature reliance on him, to do their own thing. It also appears Drew has lost control of this team. Just like Woodson before him, he’s making excuses rather than actively addressing the players and the problem head on.

When it comes to young players like Teague, they don’t hesitate to sit them down during gms when they don’t do what they want. But when it comes to veteran players, they both seem to prefer behind the door verbal confrontations, rather than sitting them down during gms until they start doing what they want. And don’t give this WE CAN’T RISK LOSING GMS BS, because we proved how well we can do when these same players are out with injuries.

Astro Joe

March 10th, 2011
3:08 pm

nire, I think the assumption is that if you are missing from specific places on the court, that you try shooting from a different place. But I do think that Joe does a fairly good job of trying to explore his mid-range game when things aren’t going well from deep.

Astro Joe

March 10th, 2011
3:18 pm

Strickland, LD recently said that he calls the sets. The PG on this team is NOT the traditional QB… not because of a lack of floor leadership skills but because of the nature of the offense. If the offense is supposed to “force ball sharing and movement” then by definition there isn’t a single player holding the ball waiting to make the assist. Those PGs with high assists numbers typically dominate the ball until they find an open teammate. That isn’t what this team does. LD wants them to be a five man attack, everyone is in position to score. Everyone has a chance to take a quality shot. The offense doesn’t become stagnant due to lack of movement. (Of course, guys have to know what is a good shot and then convert it, but that is a separate issue). Hinrich is the starter because he is light years better than Teague. In no way, shape or form should Hinrich starting be associated with the team’s current struggles.

O'Brien

March 10th, 2011
3:24 pm

nire, AJ,

JJ is a 37% career shooter from 3, so I don’t expect him to stop shooting 3’s altogether.

But if a player goes 0-5 on Monday, 1-4 on Wednesday and 0-5 on Friday, I would not expect him to take 4 more on Sunday (JJ went 0-4) and 5 more on Tuesday (JJ went 1-5).

At what point does that player say “Overall (on the season, and especially the last few games) my 3 hasn’t been falling for me, and I’ve missed my first 2 attempts this game, so rather than take 3 more 3’s, let me try something else”.

Is that too much to ask not just of JJ, but of any veteran player?

doc

March 10th, 2011
3:33 pm

vava @ 12:14 said what i have been thinking. in fact the whole teams game has gone south since the asg selection it seems.

nire, i hope they get out of their slumps within the next two weeks or it will be next year looking at us real quick wondering what happened.

unfortunately, it boils down to and harks back to the essence of the problem spoken about for years, no post presence and a severe imbalance in skills. for what it is worth what bk got us in his 6′9 scheme was not guys that were reality all that athletic but really three guys that probably are better suited to play pf than al playing center as a pf since he has no post game and marvin who has less mobility and athleticism than most 3’s in the game. he should be a back up pf and will be before his time is done. all three guys want to stand in the same spot and do the same thing and it does not include muscling folks out of the way.

Astro Joe

March 10th, 2011
3:37 pm

OB, but I think you have to admit that some of those 3s come within the flow of the game. I know that he is missing a bunch of uncontested 3s, but I think he has to take those shots. Turning down an uncontested 3 to dribble another 4-6 feet closer into a contested shot doesn’t always make sense. There is a fine line… I understand both perspectives.

I hate to see Joe shoot what I call “the hero 3″, which is when he shoots a long distance bomb to either take the lead, tie the game or do something else related to momentum. He does that often and misses the hero 3 often. But if it is within the flow of the game AND is an uncontested shot, then I want my career 37% 3-point shooter to stroke that ball.

O'Brien

March 10th, 2011
3:45 pm

AJ,

I agree there is a fine line. But I’m hoping JJ can do a better job walking that fine line, or start making his 3’s.

doc,

When Marvin puts his mind to it, he does a decent job of driving the basketball, although his handles are not all that great (imo). But on defense, I think Marvin is very capable of defending SFs. It’s his offense that I’m not sure what position best suits him.

As for JJ and his decline after the ASG, maybe Bibby leaving has affected his offense :smile:

doc

March 10th, 2011
3:50 pm

vava meant 12:19 post that addressed the shooting woes that started way back now. again the problem is when the shooters arent on collectively which they arennt, there is no plan b of anyone capable of rising to the occasion and is willing to take it to the basket. sadly the guy who is a 40% shooter is now @ 18% can he go lower? it reminds me of the stock market two years ago and when does it stop declining?

Astro Joe

March 10th, 2011
3:50 pm

Here’s one good/bad view of Joe vs. mega-stars. Joe has allowed younger players to blossom while playing with him. I’m not sure that same is true of some of the mega-stars that some want him to be more like. Has Kobe allowed a younger player to blossom into an All-Star or “near-All Star”? How about LeBron? Anyone notice how well Beasley and Dorell Wright have played since leaving Wade’s formidable shadow?

So when Josh gets ticked off because he feels like he was snubbed out of the ASG, I think Joe has no issue with him doing his Rambo routine for a few games. When Al decides he wants to beat-down his former college teammate, Joe isn’t stopping him from producing a monster game. Jamal won SMOY essentially playing the same position as Joe. Could you imagine a SF off the bench winning that award on a Melo team?

The Hawks are more like a poor man’s version of the Celtics. Despite the so-called big 3, there are probably 5-6 guys who could be the best 3 on that team any given game. Pierce doesn’t stand in the way of Rondo having a big game and KG doesn’t mine if Big Baby goes off. Unfortunately, we don’t have the quality depth, coaching, or talent of the Celtics. But I think part of Joe’s problem is also part of what has made Al and Josh grow by leaps and bounds the past 2-3 seasons. I’m not sure that you could have one without the other.

niremetal

March 10th, 2011
3:54 pm

O’B,

Yes, it is too much to ask. Because NO PLAYER DOES THAT.

doc

March 10th, 2011
3:54 pm

o’b our three bigs all have terrible handles and why they are not threats to drive and prefer to avoid the embarrassment of being stripped for moving to the basket with the ball unless they are “leading the fast break”. yeah, marvin does go to the basket bit sometimes ends up on his azz uncontested. reminds me of “skates” who played outfield for the braves in the 90’s.

O'Brien

March 10th, 2011
4:59 pm

nire,

If that’s the case, then JJ better start making his 3’s. If not, things could continue to spiral downwards.

AJ,

I understand what you’re saying, but I disagree. Even with Al and Josh and Jamal, the offense has been mostly tailored to ISO-JJ. So what would JJ have done differently that would have stopped Al and Josh from blossoming?

Towards the end of the season last year, and more so this year, that has not been the case as much, but still. And even though Jamal played the same position, JJ played 3 positions at times (PG, SG and SF), so he still got his numbers/opportunities regardless.

The biggest change has been the reduction in his minutes (from 41 to 38 to 36). But in theory, that should benefit him even more, because he is fresher in the 4th and late in the season when the team looks to him. This has been JJ’s season average since he has been a Hawk.

‘05-’06: 20 pts, 6.5 assists, 4 rebs in 41 mpg

‘06-’07: 25 pts, 4 assists, 4 rebs in 41 mpg

‘07-’08: 22 pts, 6 assists, 4.5 rebs in 41 mpg

‘08-’09: 21 pts, 6 assists, 4 rebs in 40 mpg

‘09-’10: 21 pts, 5 assists, 5 rebs in 38 mpg (Al made the AS team, Jamal SMOY)

‘10-’11: 19 pts, 5 assists, 4 rebs in 36 mpg (Al made the AS team).

I think his average has been close to consistent except for when he averaged 25 ppg.

Ken Strickland

March 10th, 2011
5:05 pm

ASTRO JOE-I agree with everything you said except Hinrich becoming a starter, especially so soon, not having any effect on the team whatsoever. While it’s understood he’s light yrs ahead of Teague as being a PG is concerned, he’s certainly not light yrs ahead of Teague as far as knowing the players and our systems. Not knowing where he or anyone else should be at any given point, especially down the stretch, is definitely having an effect on ball and player movement, and the OFF in general.

In order to compensate, LDrew has chosen to take the OFF back to the ISO/clearout days of MWoodson, but it’s not working because our 2 best ISO players are currently struggling big time. That leaves the rest of our players, who’s cleared out, standing around outside taking jumpshots, or trying to take someone off the dribble with too much ground to cover, which has led to a lot of our turnovers.

At this point, all we can do is just show patience and allow Hinrich time to grasp our OFF systems. Once that happens, he can then utilize his experience, ability and take charge attitude and approach to make our OFF run on all cylinders. Until that happens, we have to live with the growing pains of having a new starter on board, and the resultant problems it’s causing.

While I can and will b!tch and moan with the best of you, I’m still a diehard Atlanta Hawk fan that will support LDrew and all of our players to the end. For our Hawks to win, we need positive results from everyone.

Steven A.

March 10th, 2011
5:18 pm

“GONE FISHING”

Najeh and John are both dead on. At the beginning of the season, i predicted that the Atlanta Hawks would finish 41-41. It could very well happen. No one on this roster is untouchable. LD has one more
year and he will be ” fishing ” with Woody.