Teague’s time may have finally come
Go ahead. Say “I told you so.” Two games is a small sample, but second year man Jeff Teague may finally have seen his ship come in. With the trade of Mike Bibby to the Washington Wizards, along with the arrival of veteran point guard Kirk Hinrich, many of us wondered if Jeff Teague’s “role” with the Hawks was going to change or not. So far, it has, and in semi-dramatic fashion.
Here Comes “The Pest”
It was kind of hard sometimes, watching Jeff Teague play in spurts in the early season. He would come onto the court and show that he had another gear beyond everyone else in some games. In others, he played like he knew he would be yanked within two minutes. Where was the consistency? At the same time, the same could be asked of Head Coach Larry Drew, who would compliment Teague after a good game, then inexplicably assign him a DNP or play him in spare, all but useless minutes. Stop me if you’ve heard this one before….
It seemed that Larry Drew had embraced the idea of going with shooting and offense first, rather than speed and harassing defense. Speaking of which, last night’s game against a talented Golden State backcourt was a pretty good testament to how bothersome Teague can be to opposing point guards. It’s not like hasn’t shown flashes of this ability before, but the starting role and extended minutes (he played over 25 this time) were a confirmation of sorts. In case you think this is just a case of home cooking with local media, you need to check out some particular notes on the game from a more national perspective. On a side note, I would encourage everybody to take note of some interesting comments from Al Horford within that same article.
The Chicken vs The Egg…and Promises, Promises
Before we get too excited about the early success of Jeff Teague’s new (and possibly temporary) role, we have to recall that it has only been two games, one of which was a loss (though that loss can’t be blamed on Teague, per se). Can we expect a consistent performance out of him from the defensive end, and to continue to push the pace on offense? Will he defer if he’s in the game with Jamal, or is that simply a lineup issue that is solely Larry Drew’s responsibility? Is the future rotation at point guard forming itself before our very eyes, or is this just another flash in the pan?
Obviously, this calls Larry Drew’s past decisions into question. One quote from the above link may be condemning in some ways, depending on interpretation:
QUOTABLE II: “I’m not concerned about whether he makes or misses shots. . . . The biggest threat [from] him is when he utilizes his speed and his quickness, and when he harasses people defensively. That’s two straight games where I’ve thought he’s done a really good job with his energy.”
– Larry Drew on Teague.
Okay, that’s also two straight games where Teague has had the opportunity to prove that he can do these things that Drew claims he wants, during times in the game when it will actually matter. Did Drew have reason to believe Teague could not do this before? Was the playing time he gave Teague adequate to prove the argument in either direction? Some feel that Larry Drew would have never given Jeff Teague this chance if the trade had not occurred. Drew says he doesn’t care about Teague hitting shots. Something doesn’t seem right here, but is that even important now?
Here is the last and most obvious set of questions – will Larry Drew continue to give Jeff Teague significant minutes during games (as in 20 mpg or more)? Will he revert to using Jamal in tandem with Kirk Hinrich if Teague has rough games?
That remains to be seen, but for now, it seems like Teague’s time may have finally come.
Big Ray, Hawks Fan Nest
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570 comments Add your comment
niremetal
March 1st, 2011
6:37 pm
I think attendance will pick up during the second half of the season. The flipside of having the NBA’s easiest schedule for the first half of the season is that we also had the NBA’s worst drawing cards. Of course, in most cities, attendance doesn’t vary so much based on who’s in town…
doc
March 1st, 2011
6:51 pm
nire if it doesnt pick up as they say, houston we have a problem.
vava74
March 1st, 2011
7:25 pm
Rod,
You are delusional
“Yeah. I remember a bunch of games that Marvin helped is win in the 4th quarter by defending the other teams best player (LOL). I don’t ever remember Jamal helping us win any games because of his scoring ability in the 4th quarter (LOL). Today must be opposite day.”
Look at http://www.82games.com and see Jamal’s clutch stats last year.
Look up on popcornmachine the Hawks last 15 games or so and tell me in how many Jamal had good 4th quarter numbers and in particular on the ones he did have good 4th quarter numbers how many of those teams are playoff bound.
In relation to Marvin, I never mentioned that he defended the opposing team’s best player, just that he plays disciplined D. Marvin has the tools to be a very good defender, unfortunately he is not consistently very good. But on average he is a pretty good defender.
You obviously will not find many examples of Marvin helping us in the 4th quarter with his defense because:
a) He has not been playing since last year (inclusive) too many minutes in the 4th quarter (curiously enough, we had many many defensive and offensive meltdowns in the 4th quarter both last year and this year and… surprise surprise, who was playing instead of Marvin?… Jamal!
b) You are biased.
“I don’t need you to give me examples of players like Jamal, I’ve already given you the perfect example, Vinnie Johnson. He win a championship by the way. Both their jobs are to come off the bench and score.”
Bad example: Vinnie rebounded better, passed better, defended better and was a tough guy. Jamal just shoots and is soft.
Also, Vinnie, averaged only around 23 minutes per game as a sub during DET’s best years (his minutes averages were slightly higher than 23 in some years due to many starts to compensate injuries to DET’s backcourt starters).
“You continue to say all these bad thing about Jamal, but can’t understand that his last two coaches continue to play him extended minutes because he is doing his job, which is to shoot. Don’t you think that if he was doing something that he was not supposed to be doing, both coaches would take him out of the game. Drew nor Woodson, had no loyalty to Jamal Crawford “the loser” as you say. If he misses shots, that’s one thing, but his job is to do exactly what you criticize him for doing.”
Say what? Since when coaching options from Mr. Potato – I don’t give a damn about offense – Head and LD are supposed to be a benchmark on how Jamal should be used? You are really delusional?
Also, I already made clear that I would not mind keeping Jamal IF LD limited his minutes to an average of 18/20 and strictly as an instant offense player. If he is hot, keep him in until he misses and if he is cold, take him out and try again later, if he continues cold, keep him out (limit his minutes – see notes on Vinnie above).
Another factor, Jamal usually makes his damage mostly during the first and second quarters. I have deliberately checked this on a consistent basis since half way last year. His performance to close the 3rd and 4th quarters are FAR from being as good you dream to be.
“Why should Smoove look to Kevin Love as an example to follow. Two totally different players. Body types are not the same. Love is easily 20 pounds heavier than Smoove. He is a great rebounder, but Josh is a great shot blocker and defender.”
Whoaa!! Weight is not what makes Love a good rebounder, WILL is. Love wants to rebound and makes sure that he does his best as doing that. Josh has all the tools to be a 11rpg rebounder even with Al averaging 10rpg. He simply does not focus on that.
Also, Josh is a GOOD HELP DEFENDER. And it ends there. Man to man, Josh is completely ON-OFF. Not only he lacks some lateral speed, some savvy and awareness but also he is seldom concentrated on his job.
“Josh has as many strengths as Love has, and he has been in the League much longer. The question is, Is Love a loser? Or another question is, was KG a loser when he played for the Timberwolves? They never won anything either.”
Calm down! Love is – for the moment – a player on the rise. I don’t know how he will perform from now on. As I said, 3 years only, however, if his D does not improve significantly his teams WILL STRUGGLE in spite of his rebounding.
As for KG, he had a reputation of choking – big time – in the 4th and I saw many examples of that. Intense, multi-talented, dedicated, … you name it, but he folded under pressure many times, hence his many first round defeats.
His teams, IMO, were always inferior to T-Mac’s, and once he had a decent team he went to the WCF and lost 4-2 to the Lakers whilst losing the starting and the reserve PG. That performance already detaches him from T-Mac.
I would never consider Garnett a “GREAT” (IMO, not as good as Duncan, for instance) and the fact that he won a ring in BOS does not change that. An excellent and very complete player, highly competitive but needed the help to overcome his choking habits.
“Since TMac and Jamal are losers in your book because they never won anything, why would Love and Garnett (Minn), or Ray Allen(he is terrible defensively also) in Seattle not be losers?”
I never said that TMac and Jamal are losers “because they never won anything”, ITS BECAUSE HOW THEY PLAY(ED). The fact that they did not win anything is the consequence of that fact.
My goodness, Allen is terrible defensively? Where have you been? Just as an example, Allen has played D on Kobe like few have EVER… You can’t place Allen and Jamal on the same sentence, you simply can’t!
Allen may be a shooter but he is – and always has been – a disciplined player, a guy who thrives within A SYSTEM.
It’s pretty obvious that your perception of the game is completely different than mine.
Astro Joe
March 1st, 2011
7:29 pm
Al Thornton was bought out? Why, because a contender would find him so valuable or because the Wizards decided he was no longer worth an investment in their time? I’m guessing the latter. If he signs with anyone, don’t be surprised if it is another lottery bound team looking for a cheap audition.
If Sund were to sign someone (doubtful), give me a 3rd PG with experience.
vava74
March 1st, 2011
7:29 pm
Ray,
Blog monster retrieval please.
vava74
March 1st, 2011
7:30 pm
? WTF ? My post came back and Ray’s disappeared?
Big Ray
March 1st, 2011
7:33 pm
Rod ,
I’d add a caveat to what you had to say about Jamal. As long as he’s hitting shots, his offense can make up for his defense. However, there are a few things that get in the way here:
1) Last year’s postseason results. Just look at the stats. I don’t think Jamal’s offense made up for his lack of defense. It was ugly. But so was the rest of the team. It’s just that the SMOY wasn’t much help.
2) Last night was an example of Jamal’s “O” not making up for his “D.” Ray Felton torched us, particularly in the 4th quarter. Dude shot 7 for 12 and gathered in 7 assists. He did that coming off the bench. Meanwhile, Jamal scored 11 on 3-12 shooting. When Jamal has nights like that, it kills us.
Thing is, I think what hurt us the most was losing Josh for the majority of the game.
Big Ray
March 1st, 2011
7:34 pm
Vava ,
Sacrifice to the blog gods, I guess…
vava74
March 1st, 2011
7:49 pm
Whitlock: an always interesting read:
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/nba-can-be-saved-with-radical-plan-030111
vava74
March 1st, 2011
7:51 pm
ummm… Ray isn’t there another of your posts missing?
Big Ray
March 1st, 2011
7:53 pm
Rod ,
This is what I’m talking about:
Marvin’s defense does not make up for the fact that he is a total offensive liability when he is on the floor, and Jamal’s offense makes up for the fact that he is a defensive liability.
But for Jamal to overcome his defensive liabilities, he has to score well, and do so in bunches.
12 games in the month of February. Jamal has shot/scored well in 4 of them.
And that’s me giving him credit for scoring 12 against the Lakers on 4 of 9 shooting, and 4-4 from the line.
The other 8 games? He’s shot a combined 19 of 71, which is a blazing 26.7%. And in each of those games, he has scored no more than 9 points. He even had one game (Detroit, February 14th), wherein he played 30 minutes and scored a whopping 4 points while going 1 of 2 from the field.
I know why you think Marvin is a bum. But I don’t understand how you can believe the second part of your own statement above, in regard to Jamal.
Big Ray
March 1st, 2011
7:54 pm
Vava ,
Two of them. I decided to make my point in a more succinct fashion, as evidenced in my 7:53 p.m. post.
I’m not getting into any Marvin arguments, but the situation with Jamal is a different matter.
Big Ray
March 1st, 2011
8:00 pm
Astro Joe ,
Wasn’t Al Thornton one of those guys who was supposed to be vastly superior to Marvin Williams? Wow…I didn’t think guys who are that good get fired…’cause that’s essentially what a buyout is. Huh…
As for a third pg…don’t count on it. We’ve picked the hill we’re going to fight and die on.
Rod from College Park
March 1st, 2011
8:15 pm
“You obviously will not find many examples of Marvin helping us in the 4th quarter with his defense because:”
The coaches realize that he brings nothing. Only you blog wannabe’s actually think that Marvin is a great defender. I have never heard any player on his team, any other player in the league, or any other coach talk about Marvin being a good defender. I’ll take their judgement over your’s.
“Whoaa!! Weight is not what makes Love a good rebounder, WILL is. Love wants to rebound and makes sure that he does his best as doing that. Josh has all the tools to be a 11rpg rebounder even with Al averaging 10rpg. He simply does not focus on that.”
Love is a natually bigger guy that Josh. Josh started as a SF, and added weight. His game is has always been based on his legs. He does not need to focus on becoming the best rebounder on this team, that should be Al Horford, not Josh. He does not average 11rpg, but he does lead the team in steals, one of the better assist guys on the team, and leads the team in blocks. No reason for him to want to be like Kevin Love.
“I never said that TMac and Jamal are losers “because they never won anything”, ITS BECAUSE HOW THEY PLAY(ED). The fact that they did not win anything is the consequence of that fact.”
I don’t need your explanations about teams, and all that other crap you posted. You told me that Jamal and Tracy Mcgrady were losers because they never won anything. Please don’t make me find the post. The question is, would you have considered KG, Ray Allen or Love losers when they played on bad teams?
“Also, Josh is a GOOD HELP DEFENDER. And it ends there. Man to man, Josh is completely ON-OFF. Not only he lacks some lateral speed, some savvy and awareness but also he is seldom concentrated on his job.”
Again a guy who blogs, and never played makes an opinion that is supposed to be the gospel, but I’m delusional. So a guy who was voted to the second team all defense last year by COACHES, and finished 2nd in defensive player of the year honors, voted by broadcasters and sportswriters, is only a good help defender. Make it so bad he plays for the Hawks, a team who gets no national media love, but because VAVA says he is only a help defender, and his popcorn machine agrees, we should take it as the gospel. Make sure you look up the definition of DELUSIONAL.
“My goodness, Allen is terrible defensively? Where have you been? Just as an example, Allen has played D on Kobe like few have EVER… You can’t place Allen and Jamal on the same sentence, you simply can’t!”
Make sure you look at Kobe’s numbers for that series. Just because he checked him does not mean that he is a good defender. While your at it, look at Joe Johnson’s numbers in that Celtic’s playoff series, and guess who was checking him? Ray Allen. Ray Allen’s bad defense is part of the reason Joe Johnson will be one of the highest paid players in the league. Joe Johnson made his name in the league off of abusing Ray Allen. It got so bad they tried to put Leon Powe on Joe, because Ray could not check him, and Powe got his ankles broken, as has not been the same since.
“Another factor, Jamal usually makes his damage mostly during the first and second quarters. I have deliberately checked this on a consistent basis since half way last year. His performance to close the 3rd and 4th quarters are FAR from being as good you dream to be.”
He scored 10 points of our 22 points scored in the 4th quarter of the Portland game, and you still claim he did not need to be in the game. Did you see that stat on your popcorn machine(LOL).
Rod from College Park
March 1st, 2011
8:27 pm
Big Ray,
I believe it , because since he has come to the Hawks, Jamal has been a consistent scorer for this team. I don’t look at one or two games, or one bad month. Sorry to tell you, but the NBA does not work that way. So if Kevin Durant has a bad month shooting, should his coach pull him, and replace him with a guy who can play defense but can’t score. I agree Jamal has been struggling, but he’s a shooter, and shooter’s should keep shooting. What if Ray Allen stopped shooting because he went 1-15 in the championship game. Your stroke comes and goes, and if you prove yourself in this league to be a scorer, I can’t think of many coaches in the history of the game that would pull you for Marvin Williams, especially on a team that can’t score in the 4th quarter. You put Marvin in crunch time, and you think our scoring problems are bad, Joe will get triple teamed, Josh will shoot more Jumpers with under 5 seconds on the shot clock, and we will end up with more turnovers because Marvin is scared to shoot the open jumper. It’s a function of how the team is built that Jamal is in the game in crunch time. He and Joe, are the only guys who create their own shots.
Big Ray
March 1st, 2011
8:32 pm
Interesting statements/quotes from MC’s blog:
“We had bad floor balance, which is unlikely for us knowing we are playing a team that likes to get up and down the court,” J.J. said. “Knowing that if you didn’t shoot the ball, you have to get back. I messed up a few times on that and it costs us. Just boneheaded plays.”
So Joe steps up and admits that. It’s happened before.
L.D.’s message before the game was to control the tempo with good shot selection.
“Didn’t do it,” he said. “Didn’t even come close to it. We got into a jump-shooting contest early. We ended up 2 for 19 on threes, you are not going to win on the road taking that many threes especially with the other things we gave up. That’s way, way too many to give up on the road. The things we were concerned about coming into this game they completely took advantage of it.”
Yeah. Kinda has the same effect in home games….
“When they started double-teaming Joe we tried to space the floor,” Drew said. “This was one of those games where we could have used Kirk, could have used Josh Smith. Because one thing those guys can do is space the floor. We turned down some shots out of the double team which we can’t do. If they double team and you get an open look you’ve got to take the shot. We had some guys that were a little bit reluctant.”
Hurt us on defense, too.
“After the trade as you can see we had a lot of positive things happen,” Joe said. “Those two games were close. We have got to look forward to getting back everybody healthy. Hopefully Smoove’s injury is not serious.”
Even the players notice the difference.
“The good thing about the good teams is there is going to be a crowd there, no matter if they are favoring the visiting team or ours,” Josh said. “I think that gets us going more than anything and trying to play in kind of a playoff environment.”
Hmmmm.
Big Ray
March 1st, 2011
8:48 pm
Rod ,
No doubt, Jamal is a straight up gunslinger. It’s all we hired him for. I agree, he has to keep on shooting, otherwise what are we paying him for?
But….that was NOT my point. My point is, when he’s good, his offense can make up for his defensive liability. But when he’s NOT good, he isn’t helping. That was my only point.
I don’t look at one or two games, or one bad month. Sorry to tell you, but the NBA does not work that way.
Yes it does. Or else they would not have a “Player of the Month” award…
No seriously, if you have a bad month, and it causes the team to struggle, it matters. We hired him to score. When he doesn’t do that, are you trying to tell me that it doesn’t matter?
And nobody is trying to compare Jamal to Durant or Allen. Never did I say he should stop shooting. I said when he’s not shooting or scoring well, it’s plain ugly. My point is that for the better part of this past month, your statement that Jamal’s offense covers up his defensive deficiency has proven to be untrue, at least from a statistical standpoint.
Also, I am not comparing Jamal to Marvin, and as I recall, I specified that. I don’t think there’s a need for you to confirm what I already know in regard to your opinion on him.
vava74
March 1st, 2011
9:02 pm
Rod,
Again, you measure quality/success on accolades which are in many cases political.
Josh’s man to man D is sub-par.
The fact that he was selected 2nd on the defensive player of the year voting BUT WAS NOT selected to the first all-nba defensive team does not tell you that these awards mean little and that the criteria is mostly emotional/political?
How many times have been guys who only block shots and played bad man to man defense been selected all-nba defensive players? Camby’s man to man D sucks big time but hey, he blocks shots!!!!
Many other examples, I can tell you.
Heck, on the other end of the spectrum you have Bowen who did not block nor steal the ball at all and he was an heck of a defender.
Again on Allen:
Kobe shot .405 from the field in the Finals. But then again, you only focus on PPG so why bother discussing this any further?
JJ is an excellent two way player and he is not overpaid on account of a series against Boston, he is “overpaid” because the Hawks had no option but to try to keep him since if they didn’t, there would not be any cap room to sign anyone remotely close to his talent level.
Also, there were teams intending to pay him 100 million for 5 years, so your criteria for “greatness” shouldn’t be applied to JJ?
Astro Joe
March 1st, 2011
9:09 pm
Otis Smith and SVG will both be gone this summer unless they make the ECF (which would be miraculous a this point).
Big Ray, so LD expects Josh to help space the floor, huh? One moment he benches him for poor shot selection and the next he is expected to be Rashard Lewis. Sometimes I wish our new coach would just STFU. I wonder if the players get as confused as I with his flip-flopping comments/actions.
Astro Joe
March 1st, 2011
9:10 pm
Blog monster is feasting tonight.
Big Ray
March 1st, 2011
9:12 pm
Your stroke comes and goes, and if you prove yourself in this league to be a scorer, I can’t think of many coaches in the history of the game that would pull you for Marvin Williams, especially on a team that can’t score in the 4th quarter. You put Marvin in crunch time, and you think our scoring problems are bad, Joe will get triple teamed, Josh will shoot more Jumpers with under 5 seconds on the shot clock, and we will end up with more turnovers because Marvin is scared to shoot the open jumper.
Where did I say that Jamal should be pulled for Marvin? WHERE?
And wow…so if Jamal isn’t in the game, we are guaranteed to have Joe triple teamed and Josh shooting jumpers with 5 seconds left on the clock. I guess we can’t go to Horford? We never gave the ball to Bibby? We won’t give it to Hinrich? We just HAVE to go to Jamal? That’s not just a flaw in the roster, that’s a flaw in the gameplan, if it’s true.
It’s a function of how the team is built that Jamal is in the game in crunch time. He and Joe, are the only guys who create their own shots.
I agree. When you hire a guy with career stats like this – (15.5 ppg, 41% on field goals, and historically bad defense) to be a guy you leave in the game in the 4th quarter, you’re definitely gambling that he’ll outscore his opponent more often than not.
So…when that doesn’t happen for two thirds of an entire month of games, it has an effect on the team. Let me quantify that example, despite the fact that you would like to conveniently dismiss an entire month of game time performance:
January – Jamal shoots 42.4% from the field and scores 18.6 ppg. Hawks go 9-4 in that month.
February – Jamal shoots 37.5% from the field and scores 12 ppg. Hawks go 6-6 in that month.
Now, let’s go back to the second part of your statement, that Crawford’s offense makes up for his defense, followed by the theory that one month of performance isn’t how the NBA works.
If you can give credit to Jamal for being a proven scorer, then you have to give his performance in January credit as being a clear asset to a winning record. And if you can do that, then you have to give credit to his poor performance in February as a clear contributor to a record that only broke even.
Sorry, but an entire month’s performance DOES make a difference. Especially when you’re a key rotation player whose sole purpose is scoring.
Deny the record and the stats if you wish. The truth is the truth.
Big Ray
March 1st, 2011
9:14 pm
AJ ,
Post restored. And I agree with you. LD is talking too much, and he’s saying some stuff I just don’t get.
Najeh Davenpoop
March 1st, 2011
9:51 pm
“No, it doesn’t mean that he should go out with the next load of trash but it does mean that he has a lot of work to do before he earns all of these minutes that some seem to believe he deserves (for no apparent reason other than he holds a roster spot on an NBA team). ”
Defense matters. Teague has been outstanding defensively over the last few games. He hasn’t been great offensively, but his shooting percentage has been more a result of not finishing at the rim (something he’ll probably get better at the more he plays and the more his confidence grows) than not making jump shots (he has attempted very few of them).
Najeh Davenpoop
March 1st, 2011
9:54 pm
“Josh’s man to man D is sub-par.
The fact that he was selected 2nd on the defensive player of the year voting BUT WAS NOT selected to the first all-nba defensive team does not tell you that these awards mean little and that the criteria is mostly emotional/political?”
And what, the All-NBA teams are not emotional/political? They are voted on by sportswriters for crying out loud, just like the DPOY. The Mark Bradleys and Jeff Schultzes of the world vote on the All Defense team. You don’t think more than a few of them didn’t leave Smoove off because they don’t like the way he complains to the refs or something?
Smoove’s man to man D might not measure up to his help D, but calling him a poor man to man defender is way off base. The only times he struggles in man to man D are when he’s up against someone who is too big for him. He’s done a solid job in man to man D all year long.
Najeh Davenpoop
March 1st, 2011
9:58 pm
In fairness to T-Mac, those Orlando teams he played on were flat out awful, especially when Grant Hill was injured (which was most of the time), and by the time he got to Houston nagging injuries were starting to rob him of his explosiveness. I don’t think he ever played on a team that by today’s standards would have provided him the kind of supporting cast that would have allowed him to win. Who knows whether or not he would have won with a better supporting cast, but he never really had the opportunity to prove it.
niremetal
March 1st, 2011
10:01 pm
I feel sad. I can’t post as “Captain Kirk” anymore when the thread gets boring. It’s meaning would now be ambiguous.
That being said, here’s my list of Hawks as other Star Trek characters:
JJ – Spock
Josh – Wesley Crusher
Zaza – Chekhov
Marvin – A ship with a malfunctioning cloaking device
Twin – That silicon blob-thing in that one episode
Teague – One of those junior officers that gets killed in every episode
LD – Counselor Troi
Can’t think of good ones for Al, Jamal, etc…
niremetal
March 1st, 2011
10:02 pm
Najeh,
The All-NBA teams are voted on by coaches, not sportswriters.
niremetal
March 1st, 2011
10:03 pm
In case you need proof:
http://www.nba.com/2010/news/05/05/all.defense/index.html
The voting panel consisted of the NBA’s 30 head coaches, who were asked to select NBA All-Defensive First and Second Teams by position. Coaches were not permitted to vote for players from their own team.
niremetal
March 1st, 2011
10:10 pm
And calling Smoove a poor man to man defender is accurate. Fratello used to comment on it every time the Hawks played on TNT. Lots of people comment on it. Josh is a great weakside defender, but he doesn’t move his feet well on the perimeter or establish his position in the post. He also gambles for steals and falls for head fakes pretty easily, although he has improved since a few years ago (when he really had nowhere to go but up in that regard). He also still does a terrible job closing out on shooters, which is why stretch PFs give him trouble.
Big Ray
March 1st, 2011
10:17 pm
LOL @ Niremetal .
When I was little and I’d watch Star Trek with my parents (yes, I admit to this) they would joke that they knew which guy was going to die on each and every episode. I asked them how they knew, and they’d always say “It’s always the new guy. Anybody you don’t recognize from the usual cast is as likely as not to die sometime before the episode is over.”
Big Ray
March 1st, 2011
10:32 pm
I would say that Smith is a an “average at best” man to man defender. I’ve watched him guard guys straight up with favorable results.
I agree that he’s bad about closing out on shooters and isn’t really good at establishing his position in the post or defending on the ball. But “poor”? I don’t think it’s that bad. What he does extremely well is contesting shots. And that’s whether he’s coming from the weak side, or playing straight up. He also gets into the passing lanes here and there.
Thing is, Josh can be a one-man wrecking crew on defense. It’s clear that we play much better on defense with him on the floor. The way I see it, he’s more than just an exceptional weakside defender. But that’s just me.
I think his weaknesses did lead to him not making first team all defense, but it also speaks to the strengths of those that did make the team. Part of Josh’s problem is that his defense suffers when he doesn’t get back (because he’s arguing a call/non-call) or doesn’t make the effort. Lack of ability isn’t nearly the issue. Sometimes it suffers when his teammates aren’t doing what they’re supposed to be doing, and he is trying to make up for it.
Najeh Davenpoop
March 1st, 2011
10:37 pm
“The All-NBA teams are voted on by coaches, not sportswriters.”
Yeah, I f-cked up and looked up “All NBA team” on Wikipedia instead of All Defense team.
With that being said, it’s not like subjective criteria that may or may not reflect reality is never going to enter coaches’ picks either, although one could reasonably assume that it would be much less of a factor than with sportswriters.
Najeh Davenpoop
March 1st, 2011
10:38 pm
I still think Smoove is a good man to man defender in the post. On the perimeter, maybe not so much, but he is a natural PF, and his lack of lateral quickness is one of the many reasons I don’t think he’s well suited to play SF. We are used to seeing Horford hold his own defending on the perimeter, but Horford’s perimeter defense skills as a big man are the exception, not the rule.
Najeh Davenpoop
March 1st, 2011
10:44 pm
ESPN talking about Bibby bringing “execution and leadership” to the Heat half court offense. Yeah, the Hawks did such a great job with that the first half of the season.
Rod from College Park
March 2nd, 2011
12:12 am
“And calling Smoove a poor man to man defender is accurate. Fratello used to comment on it every time the Hawks played on TNT.”
Iv’e never heard Fratello say that. Again I’ll take the coaches word over any guy blogging, who argued for what a good player Marvin Williams was. I’m sure that all the coaches in the league would not vote a poor man to man defender in as one of the best 10 defenders in the league. Especially one that plays for the Atlanta Hawks and is known for his complaining to the refs.
doc
March 2nd, 2011
1:04 am
no najeh, the even funnier comments relate to integrating bibby into their very strong patterned defense. wow, will they have fun running around as that breaks down. the heat have to play defense to do well and have the guys to do it but as we know bibby is a huge liability there.
i still see him more in the role of wing gunner when the queen and dwade penetrate and need to kick it out somewhere playing no more than 20 minutes a game. those guys are really good if they can hide him for more time than that. however, that is a perfect match for bibby and i wish him well. to get his next contract he will be committed beyond what we ever saw. i still think he has been the most over paid player in the history of pro sports in atlanta. his contract we picked up was ludicrous.
vava74
March 2nd, 2011
3:41 am
Najeh/Ray,
The issue about Josh is not how good can he perform but how bad and desinterested man to man D he plays in manny occasions.
Virtually all of Josh’s shortcomings are directly connected with his erratic effort levels.
When he into the game 100% his defensive presence is good all over but good and sound defensive players don’t go AWOL as often as he does.
That is particularly evident on man to man D (where his lack of concentration/commitment hurts) rather than on help D where even on a bad day he always comes up with a highlight or two (block or perimeter steal) thus generating the appearance that he had a strong defensive outing.
I don’t judge Josh on potential anymore. I am through with that. He is old enough and experienced enough to take a step into maturity now or stay at this current and highly frustrating and unreliable level.
Hopefully Hinrich’s impact on the team will help him take that step allowing him to be more focused on his role.
I think Josh is one of the players that got more distracted and frustrated with all the Bibby related defensive problems.
E43
March 2nd, 2011
5:20 am
NAJEH- “ESPN talking about Bibby bringing “execution and leadership to the Heat half court offense.Yeah, the Hawks did such a great job with that the first half of the season”
The difference between the heat and the hawk is that they are in the process of tweaking. They already have their starting 1-4 set for any team they play. The hawks don’t even know if Marvin is a starter anymore. Miami already has good offense and already good defense. their problem is only execution in the 4th quarter which i have and will continue to blame on Lebron. Bibby will definitely improve their team because all they need from him is that 5minutes at the end of the game. Bibby didn’t workout for the hawks because the hawks have just too many problems 1 and 5 particularly. They always check out either offensively or defensively for one quarter. Kirk just helps them not check out defensively and eases the flow offensively. But Kirk Cant fix the problems we have with rebounding and shot altering.
Big Ray
March 2nd, 2011
5:53 am
Vava ,
I find the team’s dependency on Josh’s defensive abilities far more disturbing than anything else. As you say, I hope that the recent personnel changes help that.
As for what you say about his weakside exploits generating the “appearance” that he had a good defensive night, I disagree completely. It is no coincidence that when he leaves the game, teams react differently on offense. You can poke holes in my opinion about that, no doubt, but how about that of an NBA coach?
http://blogs.ajc.com/hawks/2011/03/01/atlanta-hawks-nuggets-100-hawks-90/?cxntfid=blogs_hawks
To be fair, Hinrich and Smoove could have made a difference for the Hawks in the second half. Hinrich because he’s likely to help the Hawks work for better shots, Smith because when all else fails he can protect the rim.
“When I went out after the first half, and then Kirk not being able to go I think it hurt us a lot,” Smoove said.
“I think it helped a little bit by Josh not being in the second half,” George Karl said. “Still a solid win.”
I’ll never forget Doc Rivers and the Celtics talking about worrying where Josh Smith was on defense. Sorry, but defensive presence is clearly not an illusion.
I do agree that much of his defensive lapses are due almost entirely to effort. Even good teams have a rough time actually scheming for ways to score near the rim when he’s ini the game. And no passing lane is safe when he’s on his game and allowed to roam.
O'Brien
March 2nd, 2011
7:39 am
I didnt realize until Najeh posted the box score…97 FT combined in the Knicks-Magic game. Wow.
Loking forward to the game tonight. Noah might be the Bulls best defender, but he has missed 30 games. And yet the Bulls are top 5 in defense (despite having Boozer, Korver and Deng…guys who were never classified as very good defenders). I give credit to their coach and his scheme. We could have used him in Hawksville.
I wont be surprised if Hinrich starts tonight’s game (assuming he is healthy). Put him on D-Rose, who he should know very well from his Bulls days. And I’m still waiting on JJ to have a huge game. He was on fire in January, what happened?
vava74
March 2nd, 2011
7:49 am
Ray,
It is obvious that what said is not in any contradiction to the perception that the league has on Josh.
Every team has to be prepared to the good Josh (and he was good in Den) but too often that preparation is not tested when he is not fully into the game.
Read my post again and you’ll see what I mean.
As since you are talking about BOS, what about Josh’s man to man D in ATL against them when they blew us out of the water and Josh’s man to man D was exposed and he was humbled by Garnett?
Garnett went for 17pts on 8-10FG, with 11 boards, 5 assists, 1 stl, 1 block in 24 minutes of day light with the bulk being against Josh.
Josh posted the following line in 22min: 2 pts (on 0/3), 3 rebounds, 2 TO.
niremetal
March 2nd, 2011
10:57 am
O’B,
I’m not at all sure what you’re talking about when you say Boozer and Deng were never classified as very good defenders. Maybe they weren’t classified as elite defenders, but they’ve been in the top 10 at their respective positions in on-ball defense. Deng is similar to Marvin and JJ as a defender – he doesn’t get many blocks or steals, but he consistently stays in front of his man and contests pretty much every shot. You don’t remember the props he got for his D on Pierce a couple years back in the playoffs?? He turned Pierce into a volume scorer, which (along with Gordon’s shooting) is what allowed the Bulls to run with the Celts for as long as they did.
Ken Strickland
March 2nd, 2011
12:05 pm
I was really enjoying the debate/argumnent that was going on, along with DOC’s timely instigations, until my name got dragged into the mix. I’ll admit to being happy about us solving PART of our PG problem, but there’s a part of the problem that still remains. I believe LDrew is going to end up runnning Hinrich into the ground like he did Bibby.
It just stands to reason that if Drew would run Bibby into the ground, despite his DEF liabilities, OFF limitations, and low overall production, and refuse to address his obvious issues with fatigue, what else can we expect from him when he’s been given a PG that does most of what Bibby did and didn’t do well?
Yesterday I read a article that praised RSund for doing an outstanding job with that trade. After wondering what was done to make it so outstanding, I researched the trade and found out what he did. First, it appeared to be a general consensus that both MBibby and his salary were considered big liabilities, and moving them was considered a monumental task.
Knowing he had financial constraints, he managed to trade away $9.1M in salary and take back only $9.84M. With HArmstrong having an expiring contract, and Hinrich’s salary dropping from $9 to $8M next season, we’ll end up with about the same projected salary after all expiring contracts have been dropped and all salary increases have taken place.
We’ll have 8 players under contract, assuming we resign Sy, who’s salary isn’t guaranteed. I also think we need to do something about our SF position. Either LDrew has to do more than give lip service to his claims of needing to get him more touches, or he needs to replace him as a starter or as a Hawk.
LDrew’s demonstrated his bias against Teague when he said he wanted and expected more aggressiveness and consistency out of him before giving him more mins. Yet, when it came to vet’s MBibby and MWilliams, he never acknowledged he had any problem with their lack of aggressiveness and consistency, or showed a willingness to address it if he did.
Even though Teague is currently our starting PG, I’m certain he, just like everyone else, knows that Drew is itching for an excuse to bench him in favor of Hinrich.
doc
March 2nd, 2011
12:12 pm
blissful catatonia over, eh ken?
Astro Joe
March 2nd, 2011
12:13 pm
Strickland, an “excuse” to bench Teague? So are you saying that Hinrich was acquired to come off the bench and play a mentor role for Teague? Are you suggesting that last week’s trade was to acquire a back-up PG? I think that is what you are saying but I want to see you actually put it in writing.
vava74
March 2nd, 2011
12:25 pm
doc,
I don’t think Ken was amused with the fact that we invoked his name… I think you are risking an uncalled “friendly” visit!
O'Brien
March 2nd, 2011
12:39 pm
Let the conspiracy begin
From MC’s new blog;
After coming off the bench for his first two games, new Hawks guard Kirk Hinrich will make his first start Wednesday night at Philips Arena. He’ll do it against his old team, the Chicago Bulls.
“I want him to get acclimated as fast as he can,” Drew said. “He’s going to be my starting point, so I kind of want to throw him not the fire and get him into a role that he’s going to be in for the remainder of the season.”.
Ken S,
Although I have been on the give Teagure more PT train, I find it hard to beleive that LD is looking for an excuse to send Teague to the bench.
Since the trade, Teague has played well enough (especially on defense) to warrant more consistent PT. LD has also given him a positive review since the trade. But I have no issues in making HInrich the starting PG.
The onus is on 2 people. 1)It’s on LD to find consistent PT for Teague coming off the bench and 2)It’s on Teague to play the same way off the bench like he has been doing with the starters.
We will see what happens tonight.
O'Brien
March 2nd, 2011
12:46 pm
BTW, Josh is out tonight, so LD will go with his big lineup of Collins, Al, Marvin, JJ and Hinrich.
nire,
All I remember from that playoff series was Ben Gordon going off. I had no idea that Boozer was considered a good defender for his position though.
vava74
March 2nd, 2011
12:46 pm
Damn this is not the game to start Collins…
Noah is ultra mobile and Collins is suited to bang with heavy guys, not guys with springs on their feet.
I would play Al on Noah, Marvin on Boozer (and see if it worked) and start Wilkins at SF.
O'Brien
March 2nd, 2011
12:48 pm
Don’t worry guys. Reinforcement is on the way.
Atlanta Hawks second round pick Pape Sy is back from the D-League. Hawks spokesman Arthur Triche tweeted that the 6-foot-7, 225-pound Sy has returned to Atlanta after a stint with the Utah Flash of the NBDL. He will remain with the Hawks for the rest of the season.
The 22-year-old swingman was sent down to the NBA’s minor leagues to work on his game. Sy appeared in 23 games (11 starts) with the Flash, posting averages of 8.0 points and 3.4 rebounds per game. He averaged just over 22 minutes a game..