Hawks move past the break
Just in case you were asleep or otherwise dwelling under a rock (though I’ve heard you still have access to Geico insurance that way), it’s been reported that the Knicks have acquired CarmeloAnthony. Ok, so the rest of the league can get going with any other trades now, right? That may or may not include the Atlanta Hawks, who are apparently at least seriously considering a move for a point guard. Whatever follows over the next couple of days could prove to be interesting. Maybe even for diehard Hawks fans.
Challenge or empty talk?
Rick Sund’s challenge to the players certainly isn’t of Mark Cuban-like proportions. In fact, it sounds more like a challenge to the fans (or any other non-organizational personnel) than to the players. What does a challenge to the team mean at this point? He gave them the best possible comfort zone by “hiring” a coach that they knew quite well. He kept largely the entire roster intact, which meant there was no one to get used to in the locker room. And he wants them to do what, exactly? Act differently than they have before? Excuse me, but where exactly is the challenge in this? Play well, or else? Anybody would flinch at the ire and boldness of the Dallas Mavericks owner (Cuban), who is liable to order his GM to orchestrate a trade if he is unhappy enough. The notoriously slow-to-speak, slow-to-move Sund? Far less likely. Perhaps even more so of his boss (es), who are much quicker to…oh, nevermind.
Suffice it to say that we can likely tell the future. Sund isn’t going to be making any big moves. Perhaps this is as well, as there isn’t likely a big move that could catapult the Hawks past the Eastern Conferences best in the last 30 or so games. Moves like that are usually made in the offseason, or at least with the next season in mind. Just ask the Knicks, who are suddenly looking more star-studded on paper, but aren’t liable to go beyond their current position unless the Magic and Hawks collapse down the stretch (stay tuned).
But, as AJC columnist Jeff Schultz has noted, Sund is traveling with the team during the remainder of their road stretch. So, perhaps that means the organization will at least cast some bait, with a willingness to snatch the rod up if anybody bites. Will it amount to anything? Hard to say.
How serious is the point guard situation?
Again, you’d have to be ignoring all things Hawks-related to not know and hear about the team’s issues at the point. It isn’t just the local media, it’s everybody who has anything to say about Atlanta’s NBA team. What doesn’t bode well for Hawks youngster Jeff Teague is the fact that while every pundit and expert is at least willing to hint at the fact that Mike Bibby isn’t up to the job, practically no one is mentioning the second year point guard as the answer. Some of us disagree, some of us don’t. It is rather interesting indeed if the Hawks manage to find themselves a point guard through trade. Why? Because it isn’t just an indication that Bibby has faded. It’s also an indication that Teague isn’t ready, if nothing else. Again, stay tuned.
The question is, who can the Hawks get, and are they serious enough to “settle” for someone that isn’t necessarily at the top of their list? While many may prefer Devin Harris or Ray Felton, neither guy may be available for what the Hawks could offer (and who really even knows what THAT is). So, it could be Sessions or somebody even less desired, coming to town. Or, maybe nobody at all. Time will tell just how committed the Hawks are to addressing the point guard position for what seems like the millionth time in the last four to five years.
I know this much – if the advent of another point guard on the roster isn’t enough motivation for Teague to do some very serious work on his game this offseason, and come into training camp with a chip on his shoulder – then nothing ever will be motivation enough.
Hawks vs. Lakers
As if playing the NBA champions after the all-star break wasn’t daunting enough, they might actually have some motivation. First, they went into the break with a three game losing streak. On top of that, some are questioning Kobe’s ability to stay on top. Great, as if a League MVP type caliber with a Michael Jordan-esque pride (and capability) needs motivation. The Hawks could be walking into a buzzsaw. Or, they could leave Staples center with the Lakers staring a fourth loss in a row. Want to be against the Champs at home with some things to prove?
The keys to winning this game are few. The Hawks have to get all-star performances from their three team captains. They also need a good performance from their bench. Knowing the Hawks, there really is no way to tell how this may turn out. Fact is, more folks may be paying attention to what the GM does (or doesn’t do) than to what the team does. At least for a couple more days, anyway.
By Big Ray, Hawks Fan Nest
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290 comments Add your comment
YoungHawk
February 22nd, 2011
1:45 am
So hope the t.j ford thing is not true cause I don’t think thats a better answer. SMH Hawks need to do something quick. Hope we pull out the W tonight too.
Jared Glover
February 22nd, 2011
2:01 am
They won’t do anything the front office has no clue what they are doing up there its quite sad actually
Najeh Davenpoop
February 22nd, 2011
2:26 am
“if the advent of another point guard on the roster isn’t enough motivation for Teague to do some very serious work on his game this offseason, and come into training camp with a chip on his shoulder – then nothing ever will be motivation enough.”
As often as this team finds new ways to defy logic, it wouldn’t surprise me if these trade rumors were just some elaborate ploy to motivate Teague. I hope they are more than just that.
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Big Ray
February 22nd, 2011
5:48 am
Najeh ,
Always admired what seems like a half-humorous view of things. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at that idea, though.
Because to hear some tell it, Drew needs motivation to play Teague, more than Teague needs motivation to play better.
Having said that, I don’t think it’s that type of ploy.
Marcus
February 22nd, 2011
5:51 am
Better do something.
NYK is now starting to close in our rear view mirror. We have a 5.5 game lead for 5th place as of now, but now face a tougher 2nd half schedule (including Bulls and Lakers). NYK is now armed with ‘melo and Amare’ (leading the league in apostrophes) and a fresh wood-shedding of our local team before all the All-Star festivities.
If Teague’s season statline is full of DNP-CD for much of the schedule before the All-Star break ….. trend indicate not much will change for the last 27 games of the season.
vava74
February 22nd, 2011
6:25 am
Najeh, Ray,
The problem does not lie with Teague, when given enough minutes he usually produces enough to warrant more time.
The problem lies with LD who ended up being a Woody 2.0 on that subject: he is scared of losing games and being sacked on account of that hence he does not take the gamble on Teague.
Teague is a timid character but if he can get comfortable on the floor he will rock. The Boston game – a big and difficult stage – was enough evidence for me.
Nonetheless, I would accept that Teague was part of a package bringing a proven PG to the Hawks (Sessions barely qualifies, so Felton or Harris would be better), BUT NOT because I don’t think he can’t work but simply because I know that LD would be forced to change the PG situation with either Harris or Felton.
In relation to these two far fetched possibilities, I would prefer Felton who is stronger physically, a better pick and roll player and now is a consistent clutch shooter.
Harris is too frail and too streaky.
vava74
February 22nd, 2011
6:40 am
As for the Knicks’ trade for Carmelo, I am actually 0% afraid of the Knicks right now.
Billups is not a good pick and roll player and Stoudamire will suffer. ‘Melo is a black hole and he and Stoudamire will not mesh at all.
Also, Billups is – at this stage of his career – just a better Bibby: his defense is gone, his speed too, hence he is now mostly a jump shooter.
People have been saying that Knicks will certainly improve in light of the fact that their record was barely above .500 but they forget that their record went down the drain IN GREAT MEASURE due to the trade rumors after some players started being mentioned as commodities.
DHD
February 22nd, 2011
6:42 am
Aaron Brooks, please.
vava74
February 22nd, 2011
6:47 am
Billups line against the Knicks and Felton in December:
C. Billups G 28:13 1-7 1-4 1-2 -5 1 1 6 2 0 0 0 1 4
Felton’s line against Billups and Ty Lawson:
R. Felton(notes) G 44:53 7-15 1-4 4-5 +7 0 3 17 2 1 0 0 2 19
vava74
February 22nd, 2011
6:49 am
In Denver:
R. Felton G 39:32 5-13 2-4 7-10 +11 4 8 11 1 1 1 0 3 19
C. Billups G 32:47 4-12 0-2 5-7 -2 0 2 8 4 1 0 2 3 13
Willie Coyote
February 22nd, 2011
7:36 am
Whatever is done (or not done) needs to be part of some plan. That means a next move should be in our GM’s mind if we pull the trigger on a point guard. Moving Jamal makes sense and moving him for a point is the best use in my opinion. Devin Harris will make this team better (though you’d expect there to be a little lul while chemistry is developed) but he will not make them a serious threat to come out on top of the East. That is where the plan for the next move (likely next year) will come into play.
Don’t make a trade for the sake of trading. That will not help.
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
7:38 am
Big Ray,
I think the talk from Rick Sund getting a PG is also a ploy to the fans. That way, when he doesn’t make a deal, he can say “We made some phone calls, but we couldn’t find a deal that worked for both sides”.
Sessions is not the prettiest name out there, and he is definitely not the best PG that might be available. However, I think he is the easiest/cheapest to obtain. I think Mo Evans and Teague will be enough to get it done.
Teague may develop into a decent PG like Sessions (12 pts, 5 assists, not a good shooter), but we don’t know when that will be. And if LD does not think JT0 can handle 20-24 mpg, then bring in somebody who can.
Sessions would allow us to play Jamal at SG almost exclusively, and he doesn’t take many jumpers, so that might get us more FTA, and he is faster than Bibby in the open court. Yes, his defense is bad, but I think there will be enough of a difference on offense to make up for his defense. And it does change the dynamic of the team a little bit.
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
7:47 am
Vava,
I am not concerned about the Knicks either…not this year anyway.
But with Amare and Melo on board, look for every big name FA to think about joining the Knicks in the next year or 2 (if Donnie Walsh can make it happen). There have been rumors already about CP3 (when he was at Melo’s wedding) and Deron (this past weekend) both saying they would welcome a move to the Knicks.
In the next year or 2, I think the Knicks will be competing for a top 4 seed, especially since they don’t care about the luxury tax.
doc
February 22nd, 2011
8:42 am
o’b word is donnie is out, deal engineered by isiah and dolan. donnie didnt want to blow it up for one guy. he also has a contract end june first. the russian played his hand to make the knicks weaker, said so this past weekend publicly and knicks fell right into his hands.
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
9:09 am
doc,
If I’m donnie, the only thing I would use Isiah for is to recruit players after I had identified them. I would not give him any say in what kind of deal to give out, what kind of trade to make etc.
I think the Nets are still in a good position though. They will have cap space next summer, they will be moving to Brooklyn in 2012, and eventually, Jay-Z will help them get somebody. For example, if CP3 goes to the Knicks, I can see Deron going to the (Brooklyn) Nets as a backup destination.
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
9:19 am
As for the Lakers game tonight, I think Kobe will be extra motivated.
JJ was checking him in the all-star game, so I think Kobe will want to send a message. During all-star game weekend, he told Horford “See you Tuesday”, so I think he will be pumped.
I wont be surprised to see Ron-Ron on JJ, and Al and Josh will have their hands full against Gasol, Odom, and Bynum.
I think Jamal will need to go back to being the old Jamal, and Bibby will need to knock down some shots.
That being said, I expect the Hawks to lose by double-digits (although the Hawks are so unpredictable, they might find a way to keep it close going into the 4th).
On the flip-side, if the Hawks win this game, it could be fools gold, because it will be more ammo for Rick not to make a move.
vava74
February 22nd, 2011
9:20 am
OB,
‘Melo, Amar’e, Paul and who? A poorer version of the MIA three stooges.
Much better at the PG slot but ‘Melo does not play well off the ball and Amar’e needs his touches too.
Not championship level.
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
9:25 am
Apathy, apathy, apathy.
Hawks will finish with a top 5 record in the East but it is possible that they will not be a top 5 team based on “how they are playing” in the last 2-3 weeks. The key to the Knicks success (IMO) will be D’Antoni and how he adapts his system to allow Melo and Billups to have a short learning curve. I’m not suggesting that he radically and permanently shift his schemes, but it may be asking a little too much to have those guys change 3 tires while traveling the Cross Bronx Express. Miami took a while to gel and they had the benefit of a veteran’s camp and exhibition games. The Knicks also lost some of the perimeter shooting in the trade that makes D’Antoni’s offense so potent. If Troy Murphy is bought out that may be someone the Knicks should consider bringing in to clean the glass and shoot bombs from the weakside.
Only way this is a smart trade for the Knicks (IMO) is if the new CBA includes a version of the NFL Franchise agreement. Otherwise, they should have just waiting until the summer.
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
9:27 am
I think the Lakers lost 3 in a row before the All-Star break. LD will likely go with the big line-up against Bynum and Gasol. That leaves Artest guarding Josh to start the game. Boy, the material on that match-up is endless.
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
9:34 am
From ESPN:
Mo Williams has been battling various injuries this season and now he’s dealing with a sprained ankle. Williams could not make it though the Cavs practice on Monday and was shut down by head coach Byron Scott.
“I didn’t like what I was seeing,” Scott told The News-Herald.
Williams is questionable for the Cavs game against the Rockets on Wednesday.
Ramon Sessions will start at point guard if Williams has to miss any games. Sessions is drawing interest from many teams, however the Cavs probably won’t trade him due to uncertain health of Williams.
doc
February 22nd, 2011
10:18 am
i cant wait to see what karl does with his new acquisitions. shame his cancer surfaced as he was a legit shot to do some damage to the lakers chances last year. suns got in instead. a really good coach is the only way you can defend the three amigos concept. sorry, LD doenst have a chance to be that good i think and why the askg needed to do something more than cftsoc with the coach last year, all they did was save money.
doc
February 22nd, 2011
10:20 am
o’b donnie had nothing to do with it as it was done over his head by dolan. i posted an article about it earlier within the past week.
Glenn
February 22nd, 2011
10:28 am
I like Devin Harris . I think we should trade for that British dude that took him to to town in that school yard pick up game . A Great You Tube . Anyhow do the Cavs really care if they don’t have a healthy pg ? They would probably be more entertaining without one . Lousy is lousy . I would love to see us address our pg situation but not at the expense of Crawford . Yes he has been cold lately but we need his scoring .
JeJe
February 22nd, 2011
10:45 am
LOL NO ONE READS THIS BLOG AND THERE ARE NO PLAYER/COACHES QUOTES
CHLOROPHYLL? MORE LIKE BOROPHYLL
FIRE SUND
doc
February 22nd, 2011
10:47 am
YAWN
Melvin
February 22nd, 2011
11:28 am
OB,
I think Paul may end up in a Knicks uniform when he becomes a FA but I wouldn’t be surprise if Deron and Dwight team up and go to LA. Either the Clips or Lakers.
Melvin
February 22nd, 2011
11:30 am
If the Hawks acquire Felton or Harris, I would rather they get rid of Bibby than Jamal. Matter of fact, I can’t see them committing to pay Bibby and another PG big money with Al due for a raise starting next season. That’s alot of money invested into the PG position.
niremetal
February 22nd, 2011
12:17 pm
CFTSOC
Najeh Davenpoop
February 22nd, 2011
12:22 pm
“If the Hawks acquire Felton or Harris, I would rather they get rid of Bibby than Jamal. ”
Me too, but Bibby doesn’t have much trade value thanks to the guaranteed year he has next year. Jamal is expiring, so he does.
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
12:57 pm
vava,
I agree that the Knicks will not be championship level. But if they add a PG like CP3 or Deron in the next year or 2, (as we see with Miami), a big 3 will probably be enough to compete for a top 3 seed, which means the Hawks might drop down one spot to 6th.
This does put pressure on D’Antoni though (maybe not this year, but definitely next year).
AJ,
The Knicks couldnt afford to take the chance on waiting, because Melo might have changed his mind and gone to NJ. He didnt want to take the chance of losing $30 mil+ if he didnt sign an extension before the new CBA.
Najeh,
Co-sign. Thanks Rick.
vava74
February 22nd, 2011
12:57 pm
Melvin, Najeh,
This infatuation with Jamal is what is keeping us from making any progress, not Bibby.
Bibby is far more efficient and productive than Jamal if used properly.
Jamal is a liability and there are many examples.
Start following the Hawks on http://www.popcornmachine.net and you will understand what I mean.
Jamal is behind many spurts but he IS ALWAYS on the floor when we collapse defensively. ALWAYS.
The game in NY is a good example: when Bibby left the floor we were up, enter Jamal and our small lead turned into a huge lead by the Knicks.
This happens dozens of times. Dozens.
Bibby would be an excellent back up PG / third stringer for us for at least a couple of years more.
Jamal is useless. Was never involved in anything remotely qualified as “winning basketball” until last year and for that it took him being used off the bench.
The problem last year as we have this year is that Jamal has been vastly over used.
Jamal should average around 18 minutes per game MAXIMUM. This way he would still average around 10/11 ppg as a “he’s hot, keep him in” “he’s cold, keep him out” bench player.
In many games he would should play only 6/8 minutes and in others he could play 25, always depending on match ups and him being cold or hot.
However, since Woody and LD did not / don’t have the smarts/balls to use him like this, he is detrimental to our success and our evolution (and in particular to Teague’s progress).
With Jamal and JJ out we played a good game in Boston (who I concede were without Rondo) when LD HAD to play Teague and HE RESPONDED.
Just think about it: when was the last time you saw a Hawks’ PG push the tempo, poach the passing lanes, steal balls in the perimeter and dunk on a break?
vava74
February 22nd, 2011
12:58 pm
doc,
Karl is overrated as a coach. Way overrated.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 22nd, 2011
1:37 pm
“This infatuation with Jamal is what is keeping us from making any progress, not Bibby.”
Jamal shouldn’t be starting by any means, but he fits the role of a scorer off the bench much better than Bibby. Jamal may not create offense for others, but he surely does create offense for himself. Bibby at this point is barely capable of doing that; he usually requires Joe or whoever is posting up to set him up with shots.
I don’t dispute that the Hawks have been giving up leads when Jamal comes in the game, but a big reason for that is that Jamal plays a lot of minutes with the bench scrubs (specifically when Zaza comes in to sub for Smoove or Horford) and alongside Bibby in the back court. At least from my recollection, Jamal is rarely on the floor with a good defensive lineup around him that can cover for him (i.e. Smoove and Horford in, Bibby out). It is possible to cover for one perimeter defensive liability, but when LD insists on playing both of them at the same time, it is not possible. And when LD insists on playing Jamal with other players who can’t cover for him defensively, it is not possible. By contrast, at least one of Smoove and Horford is almost always on the floor with Bibby; in fact I can’t recall the last time Bibby was on the floor without either one of them.
Anyway, it is a major stretch to go from “major defensive liability” (which Jamal certainly is) to “useless” (which he is not).
I will give Bibby this, though — he understands his limitations better than Jamal. Bibby rarely puts himself in a position to do things he can’t do, whereas Jamal routinely continues taking shots when it’s clear that his shots are not falling.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 22nd, 2011
1:44 pm
I can’t access popcornmachine at work (it blocks it for being a gambling site… WTF?) but I’ll check it out further once I get home. As far as I can remember, over the last 10-15 games or so (and possibly longer), LD has followed a pattern of bringing Jamal in about halfway through the first quarter and then bringing in three more subs with about 3 minutes left in the first, with Smoove being the only starter on the floor for as long as LD can run with that lineup without causing disaster. The result has been a serious dent in the plus-minus values of Jamal and Smoove, for having to play with Mo, Zaza, and Marvin/Damien/Powell. On offense, Smoove is not a go-to scorer, and this puts too big of a load on Jamal to carry the offense by himself (which he is not capable of doing efficiently). On defense, everyone other than Smoove during this time is horrible defensively, and as good as Smoove is on that end he’s not good enough to compensate for four poor defenders. The end result is a lineup that isn’t good on either end of the floor.
jlewis
February 22nd, 2011
1:51 pm
Ray:
I usually agree with you, on the Kobe point I can’t. When he was stuck on a team without a big man and not much talent, he cried like a baby and was just a gunner with a low fg%. Kobe has played with exceptional talent, which has allowed him not to guard the opposing players best player, and to rest until the 4th quarter to finish games. The Lakers without Kobe would still win, not the case in Cleveland, where I thought Lebron won with very average or below average talent.
Go Hawks
lukas
February 22nd, 2011
2:03 pm
There’s not going to be any trade made by the Hawks. Sund is blowing smoke in an attemp to cover his hand, but everybody is seeing through it: no cap space, role players with minimal trade value (except Jamal), reluctant to go over the luxury cap, reluctant to break the only thing that bring fans to the game: the core. Hawks management real strategy is to take whatever they can (entrance, revenues, TV) from this season without breaking a sweat, hoping for a long 1st round exit (6-7 game), and wait for the new CBA rules.
Stop wasting your energy proposing trades because Hawk’s deep-run-into-the-playoffs hopes are realistically close to zero. ASG know it, Sund knows it, LD knows it, the players know it, and we (deep down) know it. And the sad thing is, none of the mentioned above can help it.
doc
February 22nd, 2011
2:07 pm
vava not sure where that comes from. he has probably gotten more out of his team with what he has than any other coach has since he took over there. there was an abrupt turn around that has been maintained. the year he did they were on pace for about 60 losses having had a horrendous losing streak only to make the playoffs. he was what hubie was to the griz only he has been able to maintain it. there was one year where they had injury after injury including melo and they still vied for the top in their division. he has also seemed to handle the star of melo pretty well without turning it into an ego struggle that sometimes is seen between coach and star, especially one like melo. guys have gotten better, he develops depth, young bigs get playing time and somehow improve, etc. what do you look for? geez, besides adelman, he is the guy without a crown i would take in a flash who can take individuals and somehow mold it into a winner.
doc
February 22nd, 2011
2:33 pm
interesting to hear him talk;
http://photos.denverpost.com/mediacenter/2011/02/george-karl-carmelo-anthony-trade-video/
doc
February 22nd, 2011
2:38 pm
still amazed at the comment,
http://www.nba.com/coachfile/george_karl/
ten votes for coach of the year in 2004-2005 season where he took over in january to lead them to the playoffs. 6 straight playoff appearances in a small market in the west. had three 60 win seasons i think with the sonics it was. okay, over rated.
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
2:53 pm
Vava,
I wouldn’t say George Karl is a great coach, but I think he is a very good coach, and I would gladly take him over woody and LD combined.
Najeh,
I think you and Vava both have some good points concerning Jamal. LD needs to do a better job limiting his minutes and not playing him at backup PG
doc
February 22nd, 2011
3:04 pm
o’b better go back a read what he has accomplished. if not great, then maybe very very good coach. winning percentage and winning seasons among the best ever. he never had the teams riles and phil did to be among them in stature and accomplishments. greatest comeback in the history of the game 32 and 7 2004-2005. geez. again, i look forward to seeing what he does with the talent he has coming in. he also manages games while they occur masterfully to the point you go wtf, until it works.
niremetal
February 22nd, 2011
3:22 pm
My opinion of Karl seems to wax and wane. I do think that he got lucky by coming to Seattle right as Kemp and Payton were emerging as stars, and while guys like Pierce, Cage, Perkins, Eddie Johnson, and (after a year) Schrempf had plenty left in the tank. It would have been pretty tough not to win 55-60 games with that crew.
That being said, it’s hard to argue with such a sustained record of regular season excellence…well, except for the fact that they always underachieved in the playoffs (with the notable exception of ‘96).
Would I take him over LD? Of course. Do I think he can squeeze that much more out of this team than the average NBA head course would? I’m not sure. I would rather have seen the Hawks lure a coveted assistant from another team like Monty Williams, Ty Corbin, or Dean Demopoulos. Like I said at the time, I was uneasy about the selection of an assistant from Woody’s failed regime. I felt a bit better once I heard him promise to change the offense and scrapping the always-switch D. In retrospect, though, this team needed a culture change that stretched beyond the sideline; changing the coach wouldn’t have made a difference as long as the players remained the same. To engage in what we old history majors like to call counterfactual history, I think this move would have been a good one to make in 2008 (when Knight tried to axe Woody only to have ASG go Anakin-on-Windu on him). It also would have been a good move to make if it were coupled with personnel changes that took the players out of their on-court comfort zone. It’s obviously 3 years too late for the former, but maybe it’s not too late for the latter. Thus…
CFTSOC
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
3:39 pm
changing the coach wouldn’t have made a difference as long as the players remained the same
nire, if they had hired someone outside of the org, then maybe (we’ll never know) CFTSOC wouldn’t be needed as the players wouldn’t be quite so comfortable. If some of us feel like the ASG is content with maintaining the status quo, it seems plausible that the sacred core also feels safe and secure that they are insulated from significant change. And based on the past 6 years, there is truly no reason why they should feel like significant change is around the corner. But if someone with a “prove to me why you should play” perspective had come on the scene (with clear support from the GM), well… again, we will never know. They (the ASG) chose sameness.
doc
February 22nd, 2011
3:40 pm
never was i arguing to have karl here, nor do i think he is the best ever. i do respect what he does and merely mentioned that it could be fun to see if he can work his magic on them. again, it is like the question, is bobby cox a great manager? well maybe not, but among the best and very very good at the worst? similar argument for karl, blind luck has not gotten him where he is. this isnt the lottery pick we got horford, pure luck, but a guy able to create sometimes out of nothing but dust it seems and on the run. i think karl is pretty creative; he wasnt a one trick pony nor a one year wonder.
yes, i think culture change was necessary and too late now. i hope whatever is done is done more to make it better than merely introduce change. tt would have been my choice and honestly didnt know much about monty williams until nire suggested him. neither appeared here for interviews on our shallow uninspiring list of candidates after woody was allowed to expire. the list should have been better thought out, not sure if it was or whose fault it could be for being so thin. some of the others would have been an interesting piece. LD should have gotten it when BK wanted him too not now to make a difference, now not so much as we have seen. again, the hawks have performed better than i imagined but i also felt they were looking at 44 to 48 wins. i might hit it within the spread unless these guys show up for all the remaining games and the bench gets new life within it.
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
3:47 pm
If there were a linear representation of change, with “Woody Back as Head Coach” on one far end and, I don’t know, “Luring Phil Jackson from the Lakers” on the opposite far end… hiring LD (along with Ty Hill, Bender & Ballard staying on staff) MUST be in the position adjacent to keeping Woody. Next door neighbors. Sharing the same driveway. A single degree of separation.
doc
February 22nd, 2011
4:19 pm
sometimes there is nothing but hysteria over at the other blog. glad i learned how to scroll the trolls. interesting day there after MC threw them a bone, early april fools day? who knows.
vava74
February 22nd, 2011
4:54 pm
Najeh,
“I will give Bibby this, though — he understands his limitations better than Jamal. Bibby rarely puts himself in a position to do things he can’t do, whereas Jamal routinely continues taking shots when it’s clear that his shots are not falling.”
You said enough.
Winning and losing is mostly on the details.
Jamal has consistently played with the starters in the 4th quarter with dismal results in offense and the results we know on D.
niremetal
February 22nd, 2011
5:27 pm
AJ,
As to your “if there were a linear representation of change” bit, that’s true with respect to public perception. It’s not true with respect to philosophy/strategy/tactics/etc. Again, the world of NBA coaching is not like working at an accounting firm or a dream job or whatever other “real world” analogy you try to make. You won’t read up, so you’ll never know that yourself, but anyone who has read up on the NBA knows that hiring X’s assistant to replace X as head coach can mean significant changes in culture, philosophy, etc. It just didn’t work out that way with LD and the current crop of players.
I really don’t think that any head coach except a true legend with a strong personality – by which I mean Phil Jackson, Greg Popovich, or Rudy T – could have broken these guys out of their comfort zone. I don’t think Dwayne Casey or Mark Jackson could. I don’t even think a Larry Brown or Hubie Brown or Mike Fratello could have. I think that Josh’s teammates have come to accept that Josh will take jumpers and have decided to live with that. I think that Marvin’s teammates have accepted that Marvin will disappear and have decided to live with that. I think that they’ve also accepted that JJ and Jamal will try to go Kobe and have decided to live with that. And so on.
The problem is that no NBA coach takes a “we’re starting from scratch” approach. The starters are incumbents. Rick Carlisle, Flip Saunders, and even Phil Jackson all kept the same starting 5 when they came on the scene with their respective teams. No one benches All-Star caliber players or tells the team they have to prove themselves starting from scratch, except in bad movies. I do not think that there is a coach in the NBA save for Phil/Pop/Sloan that would have benched Josh, JJ, or Al. And I really think that that would have been the only way to jolt the starters out of their on-court comfort zone.
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
5:31 pm
One benefit of having a coach from the outside (even with the same players) is that they would not have been sold on the core the way I think LD is/was when he interviewed.
IMO, when LD interviewed for the job, he probably told Rick that he could get more out of the existing players (including Teague).
He probably told Rick that being around the team for 6 years he knows exactly what the problems are, and he knows exactly how to fix it. He probably told Rick that he made suggestions to Woody that Woody didnt use (which is what he implied at his press conference), and that these suggestions would make the team that much better.
A coach coming from the outside would not be able to give that kind of commitment to Rick at the start, so it would have been easier for them to talk to Rick and ask for change now.
A new coach would not be as tight with the players, so I doubt if they would be having an on-going battle with Josh about his shot selection, or feel obligated to play Jamal extended minutes, or Bibby extended minutes etc.
Again, its just my opinion, but if LD said what I think he said (at his interview), how is he supposed to go back to Rick now and say “I was wrong. I can’t get them to change their ways so you need to make a trade.”
I think LD made his bed during his interviews, and now he is being forced to lie in it. That’s my speculation…
His best action is to shake up the lineup, even if it costs them a game short term, I think they will be better off in the long term.
niremetal
February 22nd, 2011
5:31 pm
To be clear, I was thinking of Rick Carlisle’s arrival in Dallas, Flip’s in Detroit, and Phil’s in Chicago. Other examples would include Monty Williams in NO.
My overall point is that the Hawks’ “core” is simply too stubbornly comfortable now to change the way they interact. We’d be talking about how the Hawks hadn’t done enough to change things even if we had brought in Mark Jackson or Dwayne Casey or even Mike Fratello, because the “culture” problem has been seared into the players themselves and no longer is simply a sideline issue.
niremetal
February 22nd, 2011
5:44 pm
O’B,
A coach coming from the outside would not be able to give that kind of commitment to Rick at the start, so it would have been easier for them to talk to Rick and ask for change now.
A new coach would not be as tight with the players, so I doubt if they would be having an on-going battle with Josh about his shot selection, or feel obligated to play Jamal extended minutes, or Bibby extended minutes etc.
Again, its just my opinion, but if LD said what I think he said (at his interview), how is he supposed to go back to Rick now and say “I was wrong. I can’t get them to change their ways so you need to make a trade.”
That is a very good point. But usually the changes you see when a new coach comes in for a seemingly underachieving team are changes to the periphery, not to the core. Even when Phil Jackson arrived in LA, the Lakers brought in Ron Harper and AC Green to replace Derek Harper (who retired) and Travis Knight (who was moved to the deep bench), but the rest of the rotation (Shaq/Kobe/Rice/Fox/Fisher/Horry) remained the same. That being said, maybe an outside coach could have talked the owners into moving someone from the core once it became clear that they really were too comfy together on the floor. It’s tough for LD to do that now, since his whole schtick was (as you said) “I can do more with what we already have.”
In that sense, maybe having Dwayne Casey would have been an improvement. I doubt he could have changed the players’ on court culture, but he’d have more credibility and less hesitation about telling the front office that personnel changes needed to be made.
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
6:32 pm
Nire,
Even if we brought in a different coach, I think the one player change they should have made was trading Jamal.
JJ was resigned, Jordan was drafted, and Mo Evans decided to stick around. That’s 3 SGs right there. Trading Jamal would probably have given LD a couple different bench options, and he might have been forced to take his licks with Jeff Teague as the backup PG.
From MC’s latest blog;
The following question was put to Al over All-Star weekend: How can the Hawks be a better defensive team when they so obviously struggle to contain the perimeter and opponents relentlessly attack that weakness?
“Our guards have got to do a better job of that,” Al said. “Obviously we [bigs] have to be there on the help side, but we need to have that presence to try and keep the ball out of the paint as much as we can.”.
My issue is, didn’t Rick and LD and all the players know that last year too? Its not like this defensive issue popped up over night (although Rick and LD probably thought Teague would be better than he has shown).
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
6:38 pm
And more wishy washy comments from LD. First, he said he would see how the team does the last 2 games before the break, and see if he liked how they played.
After losing to the Knicks, you would think he was not happy with their performance. And with the 5 day break, it gave him plenty of time to make a change.
But what does he say today?
Drew said he will use the “big” lineup against the Lakers but hasn’t made up his mind about a permanent change to the normal lineup:
“I spent these four days looking at some of the possibilities as far as changes within the lineup. Nothing concrete yet. I will keep tinkering with it as we move forward, see how we do [tonight] and at Phoenix on the back-to-back. It won’t be anything [different], I think, on this road trip. I will just decide whether to go with big lineup or traditional lineup [each game] and see what happens.”.
I dont get it. What needs to happen for him to make a change?
niremetal
February 22nd, 2011
6:43 pm
O’B,
I agree. But I really think that an actual new starter was needed, so trading Jamal might not even have been sufficient. If we traded Jamal in exchange for a new starting PG or for a SF or C who would force the other players to adjust to their presence, then it would have jolted the starters out of their comfort zone. But if all it got us was someone like Tayshaun Prince or Sam Dalembert, I don’t think Bibby/Josh/JJ/Al would be doing anything differently.
That’s what I’m hoping for right now – either moving Jamal for a new PG, or moving Josh for a player of comparable current caliber but lower potential.
niremetal
February 22nd, 2011
6:48 pm
O’Brien,
Honestly, with the personnel available to him, what change can you expect him to make? Benching Marvin or Mo doesn’t even make us a different team because Mo or Damien would basically do the same thing (solid defense but deferential on offense), but minus the ability to guard guys taller than 6′7. Benching Bibby for Teague wouldn’t do anything unless Teague grows balls that he clearly doesn’t have now (if he defers so much to Jamal, imagine what he’d do with JJ/Josh). The big lineup is simply not an option against teams that have a quick center or that thrive in transition.
I don’t think there’s anything LD can reasonably be expected to do at this point. Unless we get a new PG, a new impact scorer, or get rid of one of Josh/JJ/Al (read: Josh), nothing significant will change.
vava74
February 22nd, 2011
6:57 pm
WojYahooNBA: RT @SpearsNBAYahoo: Hawks considering trading guard Jeff Teague and swingman Maurice Evans to Cleveland for guards Ramon Sessions and Manny Harris … [via Twitter]
niremetal
February 22nd, 2011
7:13 pm
You know it’s a sad state of affairs when I get excited by a rumor reported by Woj where the centerpiece is Ramon Sessions.
I’d jump on that deal if I were Sund. But something tells me the Cavs wouldn’t actually make that deal, even if a 1st round pick (which is worth about as much as the stuff I just scooped out of my cat’s litter box) were included.
vava74
February 22nd, 2011
7:25 pm
niremetal
February 22nd, 2011
7:50 pm
There are always teams willing to overpay for rotation PGs, especially young ones. An expiring pick, a disappointing second year PG, and the chance to draft the next Jeryl Sasser (the guy picked #22 ten years ago, #22 being where the Hawks would pick if the season ended today).
niremetal
February 22nd, 2011
7:50 pm
*An expiring pick, a disappointing second year PG, and the chance to draft the next Jeryl Sasser (the guy picked #22 ten years ago, #22 being where the Hawks would pick if the season ended today) would not be overpaying.
vava74
February 22nd, 2011
8:09 pm
Jamal + Marvin for Devin + Murphy would be my choice right now
Not that I like Devin that much but Sessions does not have any weight and would not force Bibby out of the rotation. Devin would.
Marvin would go for cap space. Murphy would no be re-signed due lack of cap space (primarily).
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
8:09 pm
nire,
I agree that LD’s options are limited. That’s why he would have been better off keeping his mouth shut.
But today marks the 3rd time he has talked about tinkering with the lineup and/or making a change. And so far, there has been nothing to back it up.
He always says the right things to the media, things that fans want to hear. But there has not been enough actions to back it up, so I he should stip talking.
vava74
February 22nd, 2011
8:27 pm
Hawks shopping Bibby, eye Hinrich
The Atlanta Hawks are working hard to move point guard Mike Bibby(notes),
and Washington’s Kirk Hinrich(notes) has emerged as a real target for them.
Denver’s Raymond Felton(notes) and Portland’s Andre Miller
(notes) also are
looming large on the Hawks’ radar, sources say. The Hawks have inquired about the Nets’ Harris, but there are no deal possibilities there, sources said.
The Hawks are trying hard to rid themselves of the three years and $23.2 million left on Marvin Williams’(notes) contract after this season. “For what he
makes, it’s a tough sell,” said one NBA coach whose team desires a forward who can score the ball.
The Hawks also have explored trying to trade guard Jeff Teague(notes) and
swingman Maurice Evans(notes) to the Cleveland Cavaliers for guards
Ramon Sessions(notes) and Manny Harris
(notes), one source said.
vava74
February 22nd, 2011
8:29 pm
The fact that Jamal is not mentioned in any of the rumors is beyond puzzling. It’s simply idiotic.
This means one of two things: rumors are completely devoid of substance or the Hawks brass is beyond the limit of sanity.
vava74
February 22nd, 2011
8:31 pm
Chris_Broussard:
ATL interested in Devin Harris, who is Being shopped hard my NJ. Not offering Marvin Williams, though. Portland and Dallas interested too [via Twitter]
doc
February 22nd, 2011
8:31 pm
well vava u may be coming closer to the light.
vava74
February 22nd, 2011
8:33 pm
not shopping Marvin for Devin?
vava74
February 22nd, 2011
8:44 pm
@Chris_Broussard ATL not offering much for Devin. A shame b/c he’d be a great fit with Hawks 4
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
8:49 pm
nire, “it can mean significant change”. No doubt, it can mean. I think there is a reason we don’t see that type of move often (hiring an assistant in the summer to take over a team). Likely because all of those GMs believe that the odds are far greater that in order to bring in “real change” that an outsider is a better option. I’m not feeling like I need to visiti a library, I know enough about how the VAST majority of teams hire new coaches in the summer to know that the ASG went against the norm. I suspect any engagement in looking at new coaching hires made in the summer in the past X number of years would plainly bear that out. Again, any change could bring change, right? That’s a no-brainer. Any new back-up PF could be a better option than Joe Smith. But sometimes when you just go with “any”, you end up with Josh Powell. Why not do better than “any change”?
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
8:59 pm
vava,
I wonder what it would take to get Devin Harris? Jamal and a pick?
The Hawks are not going to pick up that much salary for the next 2 years, but if NJ will take Bibby and Mo Evans and a pick, I would do it.
Big Ray
February 22nd, 2011
9:05 pm
Chris Broussard: ATL interested in Devin Harris, who is Being shopped hard my NJ. Not offering Marvin Williams, though. Portland and Dallas interested Twitter
Honestly….where does this stuff come from? Hilarious that Marvin is so apparently untouchable. “Apparently”, I said. Depends on how much you trust the source. And no, this isn’t hate on Marvin, so don’t even start….
Big Ray
February 22nd, 2011
9:09 pm
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ys-tradebuzz022211
See what I mean? One source acts like Hawks just won’t part with Marvin, another acts like they can’t wait to get rid of him. LOL…..
In the meantime, I think it’s telling that Jeff Teague is involved in trade rumors. Just don’t ask me exactly WHAT that is telling. I’ll tell ya after it happens, if it happens. LOL.
Big Ray
February 22nd, 2011
9:17 pm
Vava ,
That article actually makes sense where Devin Harris is concerned. I don’t see us having much of a chance with him because of what New Jersey is after. I have a feeling the Nets are far more concerned with being competitive (at the very least) with the Knicks. They do NOT want to be relegated to obscurity up state. No way, no how. So, the Hawks would have to give them something that helps them become significantly better, and soon. Draft picks? The Hawks don’t have worthwhile ones. Players? Who are they gonna offer? They have enough swingmen, so Marvin isn’t a likely option…or rather they may not think he’s a worthwhile option, based on his stats/contract. Of course, that is considering the fact that he’s a role player on this team, not a prominent figure. Does Jamal make them better? Maybe, maybe not.
For my money, I wish like all get out that we can get Hinrich. It may be later than I like, but I’ve coveted him as a player for a long time. Felton would be my second choice. Maybe Felton would want to come here, because I’m sure he’s sick and tired of not being appreciated. Charlotte didn’t appreciate him as he got his game together. New York made him feel good for a minute, but he didn’t know he wasn’t part of the for-sure permanent future by any stretch of the imagination.
I think he would be happy here, as he could help this team, and we’d probably show him the loyalty we’ve shown Bibby. Personally, I’d maybe go after Felton the hardest, despite my appreciation for what Hinrich brings. Because, we could give Felton a real home for once. The only trick would be selling the Nuggets on this.
Ken Strickland
February 22nd, 2011
9:18 pm
I don’t see anyway we can acquire either DHarris or RFelton with their $9M and $7.5M salaries respectively. DHarris’ salary would put us over $3M above the current luxury tax cap, and RFelton’s salary would put us close to $2M over the cap, which is expected to be lowered after the new CBA is settled. And to make it worse, that only covers the salaries of 10 players, so adding a draft pick and 2 minimum salaried players to fill out the roster could put us $4-$6M into luxury tax territory.
Our trade exception is $3.63M, and RSessions salary is around $3.9M. I don’t know if we can use the trade exception in this case since his salary exceeds the exception, although only by a very small amount.
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
9:18 pm
After years of seemingly operating on the down low, we’re suddenly telling everyone that we’re looking under rocks for a PG? I suspect a brilliant marketing move to sell fans that “we tried”. My pessimism (and growing apathy) has no bounds.
I’ll add this (if any of these rumors are true), no need to take an offer tonight. Negotiate until the 11th hour if you’re trying to rob a team blind. (Which is kind of what Sund indicated when he said he doesn’t favor “lateral moves”).
Big Ray
February 22nd, 2011
9:20 pm
Another note on Devin Harris – he wants to go back to Dallas. ‘Nuff said. There’s nothing like acquiring a guy who doesn’t want to be where you’re sending him. Never all that good of an idea, unless you have him locked into a decent contract and are convinced that you can persuade him to like where he is and convince him to stick around.
I don’t like saying this, but the fact is that I don’t feel this organization is nearly stable enough to offer that kind of surety and hospitality to where they can convince a person who doesn’t want to be here, that they actually want to be here. Works for guys who want a change of scenery and who DO want to be here.
Big Ray
February 22nd, 2011
9:22 pm
Ken ,
Yeah? Well you better hope that this isn’t the case, or you’re gonna be staring Bibby in the face until next offseason, if not longer.
AJ ,
Even though I agree with you on the possibility of that being exactly the case, I’ll still be completely pissed if that’s what happens.
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
9:38 pm
Big Ray, you know that it takes agreement from two parties to make a trade happen. So even if they are legit in their attempts to acquire someone, they may eventually not come to terms. What ticks me off is when I say a player who would work for the Hawks acquired for an asset that we have (and could afford to let go). So if Hinrich gets traded for a single expiring contract and a late first round draft pick, then I will join your pissy party.
One more thing, I would have taken a shot at a bought-out TJ Ford for around 20-25 games also. He will surely be made available by the Pacers and if we had a vacant roster slot (we don’t), I have have rolled the dice (again, <25 games? why not). Sund could have easily offered him 20+ minutes/game on a playoff-bound team.
niremetal
February 22nd, 2011
9:40 pm
Astro,
Sorry, I had to laugh at the (lack of) logic in your argument. Amusing that you don’t even see the huge logical gaps you leave behind. Here’s a few of them:
I know enough about how the VAST majority of teams hire new coaches in the summer to know that the ASG went against the norm.
Well gee, AJ, what is the “norm?” Hiring another team’s assistant? Hiring a college coach? Hiring a former NBA head coach? Hiring a former player? Hiring an analyst? Each of the aforementioned categories makes up less than 20% of NBA head coaching hires. So what is the “norm?” That’s a rhetorical question. There is no “norm.” The sample size is too small and the possibilities too varied for there to be a “norm.” For something as unique and occasional as head coaching changes, you have to look at it on a case-by-case basis. Generalizations like the ones you make about hiring assistants and silly analogies to the types of jobs that you are more familiar with are good for entertainment value, but not much else.
Likely because all of those GMs believe that the odds are far greater that in order to bring in “real change” that an outsider is a better option.
I grant that most team’s don’t hire their own assistants, and that a desire to change the team culture is often a factor in their decision not to “promote from within.” But you failed Logic 101: A rule cannot explain its own exceptions. Let’s assume that you are correct (and I think you are) that most assistant coaches in the NBA, if hired to replace their current head coach, would not bring about significant changes in philosophy/strategy/culture/etc. Fine. But that explains why most pass over current assistants and instead hire someone outside the organization – ie it explains the rule. It does not and cannot explain exceptions to that rule. When a team hires its own assistant, it may be because they believe, for whatever reason, that particular assistant for that particular team is uniquely qualified (ie he’s the exception) to bring about the necessary changes in ways that most assistant coaches (ie the “rule”) are not.
Similarly, one could point out that most NBA teams do not sign or trade for players that they themselves traded away or let walk in free agency in the recent past. That is because in most cases, players that a team has traded away were traded away precisely because they did not fit the team’s needs. Thus, when a team decides to make a trade or sign a free agent, they ordinarily will pass over their recent players. But one need not look far for exceptions to that rule – Hedo Turkoglu is the most prominent recent example. Such trades/signings are usually done because the player in question is uniquely qualified to fill the team’s needs. Another example of how a rule cannot explain its exceptions.
All that being said, of course, I agree that hiring LD was a poor choice, in retrospect, to bring about the necessary change. But in no way do I concede that when teams DO hire current assistants as permanent head coaches, we should assume that significant changes are unlikely. LD has brought about significant changes. The problem is that there are things he couldn’t change, and that frankly I think no available coaching candidate could have changed. Like I said, I think we’d be having the exact same conversation about the need to make a trade and the players being too comfortable with each other if Casey or MJackson or Byron Scott or Monty Williams or whoever had been brought in. In that regard, it makes little sense in my view to blame the lack of culture change on the head coach hiring. It’s more to do with the failure to couple that hiring with necessary personnel moves.
niremetal
February 22nd, 2011
9:42 pm
And btw, the reason I think LD was nonetheless a poor choice to bring about the change is that he basically gave the ASG the siren song about “this core can make it together – you don’t need to make any other changes. Leave it to me!” Like O’B said, had we hired someone outside the org as head coach, they might have been less hesitant and more credible in asking for personnel changes…
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
9:56 pm
nire, it seems you just did what I did, huh? You told me all the reasons why norm wasn’t right and then concluded that hiring an assistant is atypical. OK. Norm, atypical, stupid… whatever word fits. I have no desire debating the merits of hiring LD… it feels like debating the merits of Zaza as a back-up.
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
9:57 pm
Meanwhile, in infinitely more interesting banter, Sekou reports:
The Atlanta Hawks are interested in Washington Wizards veteran point guard Kirk Hinrich, according to league sources, but the Hawks are not willing to give Washington both a young player and a first-round pick for Hinrich, the Wizards’ current asking price.
Atlanta is trying to convince Washington take back veteran Mike Bibby for Hinrich, pointing out the potential cap savings for the Wizards. Hinrich is scheduled to make $8 million next season, while Bibby only will make $6.2 million. Both would be entering the final year of their respective contracts next season. The Wizards, though, want to continue their youth movement–though Washington isn’t interested in taking on the two years and $15.7 million that will be left on swingman Marvin Williams‘s contract after this season.
The Hawks are reluctant to put a first-round pick in the deal, especially considering the Wizards already got a first from Chicago last year when the Bulls traded Hinrich to Washington to clear salary cap space. The Wizards used that pick to select French big man Kevin Seraphin, who has played sporadically this season for Flip Saunders.
So what young player could we trade along with a 1st round pick for Hinrich? And why in the heck would SUnd care about giving the Wizards a first round pick?
Najeh Davenpoop
February 22nd, 2011
9:57 pm
The Hawks are trying hard to rid themselves of the three years and $23.2 million left on Marvin Williams’(notes) contract after this season. “For what he makes, it’s a tough sell,” said one NBA coach whose team desires a forward who can score the ball.
I think it’s safe to say that Marvin is overpaid.
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
10:09 pm
AJ,
I think Wizards would want JC2, Bibby and a first round pick.
If I’m the Hawks, I would offer Bibby, Mo Evans and a first round pick. With Mo Evans, expiring, they would save $2.5 mil this off-season, and then they would save another $2 mil next season (Bibby’s $6.2 mil compared to Hinrich’s $8.5 mil), and they would get a pick (even if its in the twenties).
I wonder if Washington will bite?
niremetal
February 22nd, 2011
10:10 pm
AJ,
What is the “norm?”
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
10:13 pm
OB, how is JC2 different from Nick Young? How many non-defending young wings do they want?
niremetal
February 22nd, 2011
10:15 pm
Yeah, I was wondering what “young player” we have to give that would be worth Hinrich. Really just Marvin and Teague. And if the other rumors are true, and we are shopping Marvin and Teague, then why the hell would we be hesitating on this deal?
This is exactly why trade deadline banter is insane. Not all the rumors can be true.
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
10:15 pm
Whatever you want it to be nire, I’m not discussing LD’s hire. We’ll just have to disagree. I’m sure neither of us will lose sleep.
niremetal
February 22nd, 2011
10:16 pm
O’B,
Why on EARTH would the Wizards agree to Bibby, Mo, and a pick?? It’s a guarantee that there’s a team out there somewhere willing to give up an expiring to get Hinrich.
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
10:16 pm
I just realized…Hinrich is 31. Just our luck, he breaks down once we trade for him.
I think Hinrich will be very valuable next year though, because having him as a $8.5 mil expiring contract will be very valuable. And I think next year, he will have more trade value than Bibby.
niremetal
February 22nd, 2011
10:18 pm
Ha…nice cop out, AJ.
As for the trade rumors, I hope that this a case of “where there’s smoke, there’s fire.” It seems like there are deals out there on which we can pull the trigger. I just hope Sund/Gearon/whoever calls the shots has an itchier trigger finger than they’ve had in years past.
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
10:19 pm
WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Golden State and New Jersey near agreement to trade Dan Gadzuric and Brandan Wright for Troy Murphy and 2012 second rounder, sources tell Y!
If G-State completes deal for Murphy, it’s expected he’ll get bought out and become a free agent. Then? Orlando, Dallas, Boston, Miami etc.
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
10:21 pm
OB, Jamal has a $10M expiring deal… how valuable is he? Value is entirely dependent on the guy holding the asset.
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
10:27 pm
I forgot about Nick Young.
Doesnt washington have Al Thornton? If so, I doubt they would want Marvin.
I wonder if Troy Murphy will get bought out? If he does, he will probably sign with a contender. When will the Hawks become one of those teams that veterans sign with after a buyout?
But these trade rumors are insane.
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
10:32 pm
OB, I doubt that there is a GM in the league who would prefer Thornton over Marvin, I don’t care what the salaries may be. And on a team like the Wizards, adding Marvin would almost double the number of guys on that team who actually play both ends of the court.
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
10:38 pm
Carl Landry to the Hornets for Thornton and Andersen. David Andersen has been traded more times than a Chipper Jones baseball card. Has he even been in the NBA 3 years?
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
10:41 pm
Bibby vs. Fisher. Right up there with Westbrook vs. Rose.
niremetal
February 22nd, 2011
10:41 pm
AJ,
He hasn’t even been in the NBA 18 months.
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
10:42 pm
AJ,
Thornton is averaging 8 and 3, and is making $2.8 mil this season. next season, there is a TEAM option for $4 mil.
meanwhile, marvin has 3 years, $22 mil left after this season, and averages 11 and 5. I know he plays better defense than Thornton, but given their salarries, I think most GMs would choose Thornton…or not make a choice at all.
I dont see any GM who would take Marvin unless they’re giving us a longer term contract (or we give them draft pick too).
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
10:43 pm
Now Powell gets to spend the rest of the night wishing his seat was as good as Jack’s.
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
10:44 pm
I thought the Hornets were broke?
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
10:46 pm
Gosh, 18 months? He probably never unpacked.
OB, I completely disagree, Thornton likely won’t be in the league when Marvin’s contract expires. He’ll be hanging out with Rashard McCants and Antoine Wright.
niremetal
February 22nd, 2011
10:46 pm
Al missing an open dunk. Not a good sign…
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
10:46 pm
Powell gets his ring. Maybe he will get some PT and play very well, and make the Lakers regret letting him go.
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
10:47 pm
Fisher averages 6.6 ppg. he already has 6 pts
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
10:47 pm
Fisher is trying to help Sund close that deal for a PG.
Melvin
February 22nd, 2011
10:53 pm
Maybe if the Lakers wax the Hawks with the floor tonight, it will put pressure on Sund and the ASG to make move before the trade deadline.
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
10:53 pm
Wasn’t Josh leading the NBA in blocks early in the season? And now he is 13th in blocks? Wow.
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
10:54 pm
And Hawks have taken three 3 pointers already
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
10:56 pm
Josh must have been passing to Blake Griffin in the Clippers practice facility.
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
10:56 pm
Which is why I would like to see guys give up the ball on the break…
Melvin
February 22nd, 2011
10:58 pm
Hawks play so dumb at times….
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
10:59 pm
Hawks have five 3 point attempts already. And no trips to the FT line.
Look for LD to say “we shot more 3’s than FT’s. And we can’t do that. Especially on the road”.
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
10:59 pm
I hate it when LD takes 2 captains out at the same time.
doc
February 22nd, 2011
11:01 pm
so ld said something like this eh, “this core can make it together – you don’t need to make any other changes.”
hmm, seems like that was a siren song here as well this summer along with a “we have the best first eight in the league” thrown in for good measure heard not too long ago even. no changes needed! yeah, i guess sund, et. al. fell for the kool aide of ld along with a few others around here. see AJ, now it is shaping up into a “its all LD’s fault”, reminiscent of the “it is all woody’s fault”.
only ten down after seven minutes. looking good baby. terrible finishers around the basket.
niremetal
February 22nd, 2011
11:05 pm
Are the Hawks trying to make an ad showing why they need a trade?
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
11:07 pm
I dont mind getting blown out, because it will be interesting to hear what LD has to say after the game (in terms of making a change).
And Rick is travelling with the team too…
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
11:10 pm
Hawks outrebounded by 8 in the first.
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
11:11 pm
“I thought we looked a little sluggish after the All-Star break. I told them that they needed to start out fast to get their blood flowing and shake off the rust. I did my job by giving them great instruction. They failed to execute. Did you hear that I played with Magic Johnson? I’m thinking about starting Pape Sy in the next game.”
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
11:15 pm
Funny stuff AJ.
Watch the Hawks lose by single digits, therefore validating Rick that he doesnt have to make a move
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
11:17 pm
Al is on fire.
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
11:19 pm
Why is Josh standing in the corner during a fast break opportunity? WHY?
niremetal
February 22nd, 2011
11:27 pm
AJ,
The way I see it, there are 3 possibilities:
1) He remembers Idan Ravdin telling him “You don’t need their approval, so stop looking in their direction.”
2) Josh’s dad told him “you’re a natural 3. They’re just playing you out of position.”
and/or
3) Josh is like the overly-proud kid on the playground who can’t resist puffing his chest when his classmates dare him to do something that’ll get him in trouble.
doc
February 22nd, 2011
11:28 pm
exploited
niremetal
February 22nd, 2011
11:29 pm
Hawks are 1-12 from deep. Live by the jumper…
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
11:39 pm
OK, I think they will need to maintain this wonderful performance without me. No need to be hurting tomorrow because i stayed up to watch an LA beat down.
doc
February 22nd, 2011
11:40 pm
when do we get to do a run? it seems like weeks ago.
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
11:41 pm
Hell, give him 5 FTAs.
Astro Joe
February 22nd, 2011
11:42 pm
Good night. I’ll check out the crime scene tomorrow.
O'Brien
February 22nd, 2011
11:48 pm
Bibby has looked bad this game.
And LD insisted on playin Bibby, Jamal and JJ big minutes together, despite Jamal and bibby not doing much on offense or defense.
I wonder what Rick is thinking watching this live…
doc
February 22nd, 2011
11:55 pm
o’b, he might be pulling the covers up over him like AJ has done.
good night all.
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
12:01 am
Nire,
I wouldn’t consider 1-12 as living ….
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
12:06 am
Melvin,
That’s just 3s. I think 75% of our shots in the first quarter were jumpers…
ICECOLD
February 23rd, 2011
12:08 am
Now can we make a big trade!!!!, please!!!!!!!! We need a center and a point guard, brook popes and devin Harris for mike bibby , Marvin Williams , jamal Crawford, zaza pachulia, mo evens , and a first sand second round draft pick!!!! Please.!!! It hurts to he a fan… seriously.
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
12:12 am
Brook popes? I smell an appearance of Dept. of Unintended Irony coming..
Ken Strickland
February 23rd, 2011
12:24 am
Does anyone else believe Jamal’s poor play of late might be an attempt to make himself look unappealing so he won’t get traded by the trade deadline? I hate to say it, but the biggest problem with the Hawks right now is HC LDrew and his STUBBORN STUPIDITY.
Hawks Fan In New Orleans
February 23rd, 2011
1:58 am
Ken Strickland – I was thinking the same thing. Jamal could be tanking it until after the trade deadline. I may be I may be wrong but it stinks.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 23rd, 2011
2:00 am
twitter.com/fakericksund
If you want to contribute send an email to fakericksund@gmail.com and I’ll give you the password.
Big Ray
February 23rd, 2011
2:49 am
http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2011/02/22/trade-rumors-by-da-vol-i/#comment-89805
Oh, if only we could get this done….
E43
February 23rd, 2011
2:50 am
vava74- The problem with Teague is really a combination of Evans Bibby and Teague(on occasion Wilkins). Many people forget that Evans is our back up SG and not jc1. This roster really doesn’t give LD decisions to make. All he can do on a game to game basis is pick which poison he wants to deal with.
Ken Strickland- Jamal’s poor play is a result of him coming back down to earth. He played phenomenally well last year but he was sure to cool back down to his 401fg% that he had before we got him. He can flat out score but his streaky style will never go away. This was the one flaws i had in him and not Flip Murray.
I think the hawks just need to play better. Even if we do get a trade it wont cover up the fact that this whole entire team will just collapse(except one or two players) at some point in the playoffs or other crucial times. A one man trade is like putting cologne on something that just doesn’t smell good at all to begin with.
Big Ray
February 23rd, 2011
2:54 am
Well, not at all surprised that the Lakers got their groove back against us. They looked good. We looked bad (and loooooost).
The post game comments are becoming a reflex, I think. It’s the same thing every time. Funny how the players can say that they don’t need any trades/moves/etc, then respond with post game comments of “gosh, this is so frustrating, I don’t have a clue as to what to do.”
Um, yeah. That’s why you’re a player, and the front office is run by people who don’t wear jerseys.
On the flip side of that coin….well, you know the story.
Big Ray
February 23rd, 2011
3:00 am
The fact that David Aldridge is reporting the “Hawks want Hinrich” rumor gives it some validity.
I hope the Hawks really bend some effort in that direction. The report says the problem is the Wiz want a first round draft pick, and the Hawks don’t want to give it up.
Ok, I get that. After all, the Wiz DO have a first rounder already from Chicago, and they DO have John Wall already. But more than that, they ARE a division opponent.
So maybe they could give up a young player instead? I mean, the Hawks are going to do what exactly with their first round pick? Trade down again (even further) to take someone they can’t use for a year or two, as well as some cash they also won’t use (well, not for basketball, anyway, or so it seems in my sarcastic world)?
Ok, fine. Keep the pick. I know, give ‘em Pape Sy! What? They don’t even know who that is? Ok, how about JC2? Bad idea? Good idea? Should it be Teague? (Wrong answer, unless they want to be drafting another pg with a low first round pick next year or the year after).
Big Ray
February 23rd, 2011
3:03 am
E43 ,
I am in firm belief that Mike Woodson’s isolation heavy offense magnified and glorified Jamal’s game. Yes, he’s streaky but if you allow him to isolate, he can do some damage. Of course, all of his damage was done in the regular season. When he got to the postseason, he was a hot mess. Same thing will happen this postseason. Only the truly best do well in isolation in the postseason, and even they can lose with that type of game. Just ask Lebron James. He knows.
Jamal doesn’t look as good because he’s asked to play the PG spot too much in Drew’s system, and isn’t allowed to just go on ISOs so much. As a result, he has not flourished as often.
Big Ray
February 23rd, 2011
3:06 am
Hornets scored on that one. Landry makes them deeper/better in the frontcourt. He plays hard (and rebounds).
Thornton (once thought better than Marvin by some guy in College Park
) is offically a journeyman. Andersen was a joke from the start. I’m still laughing.
Big Ray
February 23rd, 2011
3:11 am
“I don’t think we went to the rim enough,” L.D. said. “I just thought we settled, which is starting to be a pattern with us. When you fall into that type of pattern when you are not making shots you’re going to struggle. We went 1-for-15 from the three, yet we settled for the three. We have to have more basketball savvy than that.”
Becoming a pattern with this team, Larry? Oh, you mean it’s just NOW started happening? Really?
Zzzzzzzz……
Ed
February 23rd, 2011
3:12 am
Ray, at this point I think a coaching change would be as helpful as any player the Hawks would get with what we have (or are willing) to offer. Doing both though, just might be the jolt this team sorely needs.
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
3:22 am
Why “Not Starting Teague” is an option written in stone?
And why play Jamal so many minutes and out of position?
The Lakers lead ballooned when Jamal got in (-6 to -13 to close the quarter).
I know that other reserves got in shortly after Jamal did, but the tendency was marked there.
Jamal does not make anyone around him better. EVER.
He AMPLIFIES the differential between the reserves and the starters so playing him as the reserves PG is STUPID BEYOND BELIEF.
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
3:26 am
As for the trade rumors and done deals:
So, NJ was not interested in a another wing player but traded Murphy for Wright? Please…
Hinrich:
I like Hinrich and he would bring a defensive presence BUT:
1. He is 31;
2. He is a jump shooter.
So:
We would not be making a move which would change the way the team plays whilst taking on board another player who is already looking into the twilight of his career (maybe 2 good years left?).
We need a PG which penetrates consistently, poaches the lanes and gets to the line.
Hinrich would be nice but only if:
1. We got rid of Jamal;
2. Got Teague consistent minutes (20);
Big Ray
February 23rd, 2011
3:31 am
Vava ,
I have no idea at this point. LD keeps talking about changing lineups, but has nothing to offer besides starting Twin and benching Marvin. That’s it. Absolutely it. No other changes.
So….I don’t know what to say.
And yeah, a lot would be different if we got rid of Jamal. But that isn’t the only difference. We also have issues with our starting lineup. Two issues in particular, one of which isn’t Marvin.
Big Ray
February 23rd, 2011
3:34 am
Hinrich is a jumpshooter who can penetrate, and who is a very smart player. Foot speed is not an issue, and the guy even guards SGs, not just PGs.
I think the defensive versatility and the heady play alone is worth it. Then, use Hinrich as your veteran guard to rely on as Teague (or whoever is the future at this position) gets his chops. It works better than having Bibby as the non-defending backup who isn’t too good with penetration.
Of course, the point remains that none of this works if Jamal continues to get starter’s minutes and Teague is not allowed to run amongst the wolves, for the sake of finding out if he’s predator or prey.
Big Ray
February 23rd, 2011
3:36 am
I fear, however, that we end up “settling” for Sessions. Or a ten day contract type. Or no one at all.
Anybody heard from Kevin Ollie?
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
6:39 am
I just saw the 4th quarter of last night’s game.
Teague held is own pretty well against Blake which is far from being a scrub.
He got baited into a foul but it was not a completely stupid one and had 1 bad defensive rotation.
IMO he had several very good plays in which he got the ball to players in a good position to shoot and if Powell, Mo and Zaza had not missed their shots/got blocked or fouled, he could have finished with 6 or 7 assists for the quarter.
I am well passed the point that I will make any effort to watch the Hawks unless something major happens before Thursday.
As for Hinrich, I did not meant to say that he was flat footed, but his penetrating skills are IMO only passable. Anyhow, I think he could be a terrific starting PG who could shift to SG when necessary.
And please please please, let us get rid of Jamal.
O'Brien
February 23rd, 2011
7:04 am
A team loss last night, but I think LD shoulders a lot of the blame.
“I just thought we settled, which is starting to be a pattern with us”.LD .
See, its quotes like this that make me doubt LD, and I’m wondering if he is overmatched. He said it is starting to be a pattern. It started being a pattern from when Woody was here.
Players get jumper happy, dont drive to the hoop, and hang their heads when the going gets tough. They have been doing it all year, but yet LD said it is starting to be a pattern? C’mon Man!
And what else does he need to see to make some kind of change? I know his options are limited, but the status quo is not working. Its insanity what he is doing. Trotting the same team, the same rotation out there game after game, and hoping for a different result.
Start Jamal instead of Bibby, start Teague instead of Bibby, give JC2 some of Jamal’s minutes, give Damien some of Marvin’s minutes, play Marvin at SF with Al at PF (bring Josh off the bench)…at least try something different, anything.
And if it doesnt work, at least you can say you tried.
O'Brien
February 23rd, 2011
7:09 am
As for the players, lots of blame to go around too. Just to name a few…
Josh: 1-7 on jumpers outside the paint (I’m glad LD is getting him to establish himself inside the post first..SMH at LD).
Bibby: 16 minutes, 0-3 from the field, 0 points, 0 assists (could Teague have done any worse in 16 mins)?
Powell: 10 shot attempts in 15 minutes (he was 2-10). Was he trying to impress the Lakers?
Marvin: Up and down as usual, ZaZa being ZaZa…and the list goes on.
What was interesting is the Hawks only had 6 turnovers, but the Lakers had 18. And we still lost by 24 (and would have been worse if LA hadnt emptied their bench).
G.Rhone
February 23rd, 2011
7:47 am
It simply amazes me that the Hawks gave JJ a max contract, but yet he can make statements like “We gave them too much respect….” Are you serious? This team has a very long way to go!!!
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
8:48 am
It’s a small quibble, I know, but people keep saying Hinrich is 31. Unless I’m doing my math embarrassingly wrong, though, he just turned 30 (DOB 2 Jan 1981).
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
8:51 am
If the Hawks miss out on Hinrich because they refuse to include JC2, Teague, and/or their sub-20 draft pick, I’m gonna effing scream. The only guys on the roster who should be off-limits in such a deal are JJ, Al, and Josh.
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
9:18 am
nire, I agree.
I don’t always get stuff right, but going to bed at halftime was a BRILLIANT decision on my part. This team is unworthy of a sacrifice of my sleeping time.
When LD says stuff about taking too many jumpers during the course of an entire game, he is essentially admitting that he has lost control. I get how it may be hard to change behavior during a specific time interval, like late in the 4th quarter. That time comes and goes too quickly to make adjustments. But to say that the entire agame (or let’s say first 3 quarters) were lost because the team “settled”, is to say that you couldn’t (or didn’t) do a dang thing about it. How could he have been here for 6 years and believe that this team was capable of self-discipline? How? WTF was he doing that made him think that they had the mental focus to “do the right thing”? I’d be more willing to accept this kind of misunderstanding from an outsider, not someone who was sitting on the front row for 500 games with most of this sacred core.
Outwardly cerebral? How about potentially delusional?
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
9:20 am
Of the names mentioned yesterday, I put them in this order of preference:
Hinrich
Felton
Sessions
Harris
I don’t think we need flash and dash, just steady performance on both ends of the court. This team needs a calming influence, not another hot/cold kind of players.
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
9:26 am
nire,
on Hinrich’s age, I merely reproduced an information from someone else without checking.
my bad.
that makes him young enough to warrant “a package” with picks + youngster(s) but I would still like to keep Teague but I doubt that WAS has any use for Jordan in light of Nick Young’s game.
I would ship Marvin and some filler if they took him.
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
9:49 am
Prior to season started, LD champion that his offense system was different and never been seen before. I’m willing to bet after he finish coaching the Hawks, it will never be seen again….
O'Brien
February 23rd, 2011
9:51 am
For some reason, I thought Hinrich was 31.
AJ,
I agree with the order of your PG preference. And if the Hawks dont want to give up a young player and/or pick, I think its just another case of Rick Sund overvaluing his assets.
All Rick Sund has to do is ask himself these 2 questions.
Of the Top 8 teams in the East, and top 8 teams in the West;
1) On how many of them would Jason Collins be the starting center?
2) On how many of them would Mike Bibby be the starting PG?
I think the answer to both questions is 0. Hawks need to make a move. They should have made it over the offseason, but better late than never.
Although Rick Sund is travelling with the team, I wouldnt be surprised if he is on vacation (I’ve heard Cali and Phoenix are great places to visit).
O'Brien
February 23rd, 2011
10:04 am
Melvin,
With the way the season has gone (and I know its still early), LD is looking overmatched. And he is only making $1.5 mil next year, so I think he will be on the hot seast next season.
nire,
Josh Smith is shooting 19% from 3 for the month of February. What has happened to his improved jumper?
doc
February 23rd, 2011
10:06 am
the cream rises to the top or it doesnt aj
now cya coach speak.
O'Brien
February 23rd, 2011
10:10 am
By the way, these were the post game comments from 2 of our captains.
“We didn’t have that fire, that competitive nature that we need. It’s frustrating, man. I don’t know what to do.” JJ
“We really have some soul-searching to do as a team. It’s discouraging.” Al.
It sounds like the coach or the players dont know what to do. But havent we heard these kind of comments before? Somebody needs to save the coach and/or the players from themselves.
According to MC, the Hawks have 5 losses this year of more than 20 points. For a team thats a top 4 contender, that’s crazy…
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
10:16 am
I think the Hawks will need to make several moves to become an elite team but I don’t expect them to do it before the trade deadline. They need to at least make one move before the trade deadline that will keep them in the position for homecourt in the 1st round of the playoffs (like aquire a player they would like to keep going forward). Then in the offseason, make other moves that will break up the current core and rebuild this team. Also, bring in a new coach. This is still BK team and its time to move in a different direction…
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
10:40 am
Seems almost pointless to post this today for some reason, but why break with tradition?
Josh’s jumpers watch update:
vs. Det: 7-12 (1-3 on 3s)
vs. NYK: 3-9 (0-3 on 3s)
vs. LAL: 1-7 (0-2 on 3s)
Total: 11-28 (1-8 on 3s)
FG%: .393
eFG%: .411
eFG% vs. season avg: -.021*
vs. ’09-’10 avg: +.126
———————————————————————
It seems like 82games hasn’t updated the shot selection stats in awhile, because Josh’s eFG% on jumpers this season has been displayed at .439 for the last month, and it seems highly unlikely that it hasn’t changed at all. So instead, I’m now using Hoopdata’s info on shot location, and am counting all shots taken 10 feet from the basket or further as “jumpers.” According to Hoopdata, Josh’s FG% on such shots is .379 and his eFG% is .432.
kwooden
February 23rd, 2011
10:51 am
I couldn’t bring myself to post last night and I really don’t have much to say right now. LD’s current rotation isn’t working, especially Jamal coming in as the backup PG. This team looks terrible if they aren’t making jumpshots and JJ is the only one that can penetrate and draw the defensive. I wouldn’t mind getting Kirk, but I actually would rather see Teague start. Because if you can’t move either Jamal or Bibby to get a PG (Kirk, etc), then your stuck playing either one of those guys. At that point you still won’t know what you have with Jeff.
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
11:04 am
It’s quite funny that the Nets ended up getting a better deal than the Knicks…
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
11:05 am
Nets just snatched Deron Williams
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
11:06 am
Favors and Harris to Utah
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
11:10 am
Huh.
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
11:18 am
I mean, Favors/Harris is better than any package we could put together that doesn’t include Horford. But why the hell would Utah make that deal??
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
11:21 am
Possibly, Deron to the Nets for Devin and Favors….WOW
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
11:22 am
Deron must have really pissed some folks off in Utah…
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
11:24 am
We have superstar/all NBA type players being traded and the HAWKS want to keep their core intact that havent made it past the 2nd round.
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
11:30 am
If we get a new starting PG in a trade, I can live with it. I’d rather see a trade that moves one of our big three (read: Josh), but it might be that we can’t get even close to value in that type of trade. I’m still all for CFTSOC, but not if the best we can get for Josh is someone like K-Mart or Rip Hamilton.
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
11:53 am
I see the D-Will trade as a disaster for both of the major teams involved. Favors has upside, no doubt, but the Jazz already have too many PFs, and I don’t see Favors turning out better than Jefferson. And of course, D-Will >>> Harris. Maybe it makes sense if they now turn around and trade both Harris and Jefferson in an effort to clear cap space, but otherwise.
For the Nets…I mean, do they really think D-Will and Lopez are enough to build around? Because that’s basically all they’ll have if they just traded away their lottery picks. A friend of mine just suggested that maybe the Nets just really wanted to get a star after they missed out on Carmelo, and D-Will fits the bill. Ironically, they’ll be a team with a top 5 PG and arguably a top 5 center, but they won’t be able to get anywhere because they are so weak everywhere else and don’t really have the capacity to improve.
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
11:54 am
I suppose the Jazz are playing Jefferson at C and Millsap at PF, but still…Millsap has a pretty fat contract and he’s still pretty young. Maybe Favors has it in him to play C, but do you make a trade on that hope and a prayer?
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
12:01 pm
I could see the Nets thinking that they have the dynamic PG that the Knicks are missing. Lopez has regressed this season, does he even get 6 boards a game? And I agree, Jefferson, Favors and Millsap seem like a whole lot of beef in a fairly narrow lane. I suspect Jefferson is the next to go.
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
12:02 pm
Sorry, I didn’t see nire’s post before I submitted mine. Yeah, those 3 don’t seem to fit. No floor spacing whatsoever.
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
12:04 pm
Nire,
Neither one of those team were going to win as currently constructed. Both rid themselves of disgruntle players for some value. I could see DWill (and Harris on a smaller scale) forcing their current teams hand to trade them like Melo. The new CBA agreement will be interesting b/c the current CBA seems to give the players more leverage than the owners. And I’m not saying that a player shouldn’t have any say where he likes to play but I’m seeing a disturbing trend that many of the superstar players are running to the big market teams….
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
12:08 pm
AJ/Nire,
Maybe those three (Favors, Jefferson, Milsap) and Okur becomes a pretty good front court rotation. With Favors playing some spot mins at C for certain matchups. Oh well, maybe the Hawks should pursue Okur….
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
12:11 pm
I’ll tell you this… Joe may not be an All-Star next season. And the next “Super Friends” team should be done out in the West, because the influx of talent on this side of our great country has been ridiculous in the past 6 months. Has the East lost an elite talent (top 20-25 player) since last season?
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
12:14 pm
Has the East lost an elite player (top 20-25) since last season? If I am looking for the next Super Friends team, I’d go out West. And Joe Johnson, you may have just lost your all-Star slot to Mr. Williams next season.
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
12:16 pm
Amar’e, Deron, Carmelo and Boozer have all moved right on the map. I can’t think of a top 20-25 player who has moved left since last June.
MannyT
February 23rd, 2011
12:17 pm
How many ATLiens wish that Prokorov had bought out the entire Atlanta Spirit now?
Utah may not be done dealing. Draft picks and a lot of front court talent…and a HUGE (over $17 mil) expiring contract for AK47. They have options.
On the home front, I doubt anything big happens via trade, but we’ll bounce back and get a good win on this trip. It’s the inconsistent team that we have.
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
12:20 pm
MannyT,
That Russian is not a Billionaire by luck. He drove up the price for Melo and then made a great deal to get Deron…. SMH, I would prefer him over the ASG any day….
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
12:24 pm
Gearon recently promised an “entertaining NBA product”. It looks like that will come in the form of the opposing Eastern Conference team. Of course, watching other superstars win by 20 isn’t exactly encouragement to spend $100 at Philips Arena, huh?
Melvin, no way they fire LD in the summer.
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
12:30 pm
If given a choice, I’d choose Deron over Melo. I’m probably one of few who would, but having a top 5 PG seems more important than having a top 5 SF in today’s NBA. And he got Deron for FAR less than what was being asked for Melo. Now, he has to get Deron to stay beyond next season.
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
12:31 pm
Utah will move someone. Guaranteed.
And I think they move 2: Harris to Dallas (as he wants to) for Beaubois + someone else promising + someone for cap value value coming from a 3rd team with Jefferson (?) involved in the deal.
Jefferson has again amassed the stats but not enchanted anyone.
nire,
I assume that the motivation in Utah was to cut their pay roll down to close to zero and to simply off load a disgruntled and fatter by the day Deron.
As for NJ, I think it was a genius move by Prokhorov. If they manage to get Lopez to rebound the ball and play some D the combo PG-C they have is very good and, as you know, the easiest positions to fill are the wing positions.
SG and SF are a by the dozen and Humphries is a passable – for the moment – PF which rebounds like a maniac.
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
12:33 pm
Melvin,
Take it from a guy who’s had plenty business dealings in Russia: Prokhorov may not have gotten to be a billionaire by luck, but he also didn’t get there by merit. He had a lot of help from a guy whose last name rhymes with Tootin’.
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
12:34 pm
Astro,
I am with you, Deron over ‘Melo hands down.
However, he is fat like a seal. Maybe he was bored and disinterested but the fact is that UTAH had 2 players many coveted around here (Jeff and D-Will) and were underachieving just like we are.
My guess that Sloan will be back on the bench for their playoff run now that fatso is out of the way
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
12:38 pm
Nire,
“Prokhorov may not have gotten to be a billionaire by luck, but he also didn’t get there by merit”
It’s obvious that Prokhorov had plenty of help but have you read how he started?
Producing and selling jeans on a jeans starving country and then, by the time he had some money he was involved in dealing with selling something that I don’t remember to a Ieltsin’s run government which being bankrupt basically gave him mine ores to pay off the debt.
He had the smarts and then had the cold blooded nature necessary to capitalize on that with a few skeletons dug deep somewhere.
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
12:39 pm
Melvin, while this is better for the NBA (stacking players in the major markets), there will be about 20 owners crying during the owners’ meetings. I suspect that some version of a (NFL) franchise tag will be put on the table. Maybe a team can retain the rights to a single player for at least 1-2 years… essentially delaying their free agency status but guaranteeing a max-type contract during that 1-2 years. The troubling thing is where these incumbent teams have done nothing wrong, Denver (as an example), offered Melo the world, the owner has been living in luxury land and they recently made the Western Conference Finals. Yet Melo walked anyway. Same was true in Cleveland. It’s one thing if you’re playing for Sterling and you want a chance to win elsewhere, it’s another when your owner and fans do all they can and you still opt to “take your talents to…” Again, good for the league as an overall entity but bad for the majority of owners and their individual balance sheets. With TV revenues locked in (I assume), having more viewers watching in the NYC market in the next few months won’t do much for the Denver or Utah owners who will have more empty seats for the remainder of the season.
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
12:40 pm
Word is out that D-Will is not happy with the trade!
If that is not overturned NJ will have Mr. Fatso and Mr. No Rebound as their core pieces.
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
12:50 pm
Vava,
No doubt the dude is smart and has good business instincts. That made him a millionaire. But it was coziness with Putin that allowed him to get lots of mini-monopolies in his industry (monopolies that sometimes were enforced by hired thugs without the niceties of due process). That’s what allowed him to add the last couple zeroes to his net worth.
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
12:54 pm
nire,
sure, but isn’t that the case with the lobbyists ($$) in DC as well?
the only difference is that lobbying is less bloody…
Najeh Davenpoop
February 23rd, 2011
12:55 pm
“I suspect that some version of a (NFL) franchise tag will be put on the table. ”
I’d be surprised if that actually happens, though. The big difference between the NFL and the NBA is that the NBA has a commissioner who all but comes out and says he wants big market teams to thrive, and demonstrates through his actions that he is indifferent to small market teams. The NFL on the other hand prizes their parity-enforcing structure. Sure, some owners may want a franchise tag in the NBA, but I doubt that David Stern will let it happen unless there is overwhelming support (which there won’t be).
Jimmy Crack
February 23rd, 2011
12:57 pm
Still, after all these years, the Hawks are in need of a point guard and a center. DOH!
Keep drafting forwards! It’s all the rage!
They should call them the Atlanta Forwards.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 23rd, 2011
12:58 pm
“Anybody heard from Kevin Ollie?”
Anybody heard from Nick Van Exel?
MannyT
February 23rd, 2011
1:02 pm
The Nets have contract length on their side. If D Will doesn’t give effort, they can deal him next season. However, they have this offseason (in theory–if labor situation ever gets resolved) to get him some help.
If D Will can survive in Utah for several years, I think he can make it in NJ/NY if the team develops.
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
1:09 pm
Najeh,
“…the NBA has a commissioner who all but comes out and says he wants big market teams to thrive, and demonstrates through his actions that he is indifferent to small market teams.”
Did you watch Stern’s All Star press conference? He said that he was actively negotiating with the owners and facing some resistance changes to the revenue distribution in order to level out competition and protect smaller markets.
He also said that this was also the scope of the changes to the CBA which the NBA intended to get agreed with the NBAPA.
Obviously, this coming from a cold blooded lizard like Stern has to be taken with caution, however, the fact is that if all the stars migrate to the big markets and something is not done quickly to prevent that, the NBA will have plenty of empty seats elsewhere and franchises going under…
O'Brien
February 23rd, 2011
1:10 pm
Deron Williams has a player option for the 2012-2013 season, so Nets might only have him for one and a half seasons.
I wonder why Utah didnt trade Deron before Sloan retired? Maybe Sloan would have stayed until the end of the season.
And I think Utah will trade Harris to Denver for an expiring (Butler), and/or a young player/draft pick.
It would be nice to see the Hawks make a trade…I’m tired of being on the sidelines. Get in the game Rick.
O'Brien
February 23rd, 2011
1:12 pm
Big Ray, Mark Bradley weighs in…
http://blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-blog/2011/02/23/why-the-hawks-still-havent-gotten-past-missing-on-chris-paul/?cxntfid=blogs_mark_bradley_blog/
MannyT
February 23rd, 2011
1:13 pm
@O’Brien…I think Sund is on the verge of signing a D-League PG to a 10 day contract
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
1:32 pm
MannyT,
We don’t even have the roster space to do that!
Najeh Davenpoop
February 23rd, 2011
1:32 pm
“Did you watch Stern’s All Star press conference? He said that he was actively negotiating with the owners and facing some resistance changes to the revenue distribution in order to level out competition and protect smaller markets.”
His actions belie his statements, now that he is about to let a second small market team bolt because the city in question won’t finance a new stadium.
“Obviously, this coming from a cold blooded lizard like Stern has to be taken with caution, however, the fact is that if all the stars migrate to the big markets and something is not done quickly to prevent that, the NBA will have plenty of empty seats elsewhere and franchises going under…”
So many people in basketball love to talk about the “golden era” of the 80s when the Lakers and Celtics had these all time great teams and were doing battle against each other. I wasn’t around then, so I can’t say whether that’s true or false. But looking back at the league then, there were plenty of awful teams during that time period whose lack of talent balanced out the talent on those few “haves”. Would it surprise me to see Stern try to push the league back to that model? No, it wouldn’t.
MannyT
February 23rd, 2011
1:35 pm
On the Mark Bradley blog…
I’m clearly in the moving on past Chris Paul & Deron Williams camp. Yes, we missed that opportunity, but you cannot get stuck on it. Unless someone has access to time travel, I don’t know how to change 2005. However, this might be the biggest reason to move Marvin. Give him a chance to get a fresh start somewhere else. He will never be on the CP3/DWill level…life goes on.
There are several other quality PGs we missed out on since 2005. Even when Teague was drafted, he was in the middle of a run of 5 PGs in a row. Six picks after Teague, Dallas gets Roddy Buckets.
We keep missing. Trade for a PG. That’s how we got Bibby & probably the best route to his successor.
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
1:36 pm
Chad Ford just said that Felton is back in the market and being shopped by Denver.
MannyT
February 23rd, 2011
1:43 pm
@Vava…I think you could convince Gearon to drop Pape Sy for a box of Krispy Kremes. Then you get your roster spot.
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
2:05 pm
Najeh, the economy is obviously much different than it was 30 years ago. Stern’s bosses include ALL owners, not just the big market guys. The value of franchises are shifting in a volatile manner because of the movement of these mega-stars. And this is a slippery slope, today it is the mega-stars, it will eventually work its way down. What if we heard that Josh Smith was eyeing his freedom in a few summers to go join the Nets or Thunder or some other potential Super Friend team? That would likely change the revenues of the ASG just because fans wouldn’t want to emotionally invest in someone with moving boxes in his garage. I don’t know the solution but I’m fairly sure that the 20+ owners who are on the outside looking in will force a “come to Jesus” discussion. I would hate to be the guy trying to sell ad space on local Nuggets game broadcasts today.
“Hi, this is Joe calling from the Nuggets broadcast ad sales team, is this the manager of Elway Chevrolet? Hello? I can hear you breathing… we have a buy 1 get 7 special today… hello? Please, stop laughing.”
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
2:13 pm
Nire,
Sorry but I think I was on this bandwagon before you… However, let’s all say it together…. CFTSOS…
N.D.T.K.A.
February 23rd, 2011
2:14 pm
I guess now we know what we have in L.Drew: Woody Part II. Avery Johnson, Dwayne Casey, and Tyrone Corbin are looking real good right about now.
L. Drew = Insanity = “doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” Play Teague, sit Bibby and Jamal. Move Josh under the goal.
Rick Sund : Get Hinrich or maybe Aaron Brooks or any decent pg that can penetrate and defend. Move Bibby for anything you can get including giving up our first round pick which you do not know what the he!! to do with anyway! Get a big man or another scorer or anything for Jamal Crawford and that trade exception that we got during the draft.
Michael Gearon stated on 680 and 790 last week that he loves Hawks basketball since he was a kid and has been key in guiding the Hawks to where they are now. If this is true Michael G., do like Arthur Blank and hire a real GM and a reputable coach to put a credible product on the court.
The Hawks cannot identify, develop, coach, or attract talent. This is simply the truth!!!
MannyT
February 23rd, 2011
2:25 pm
This is what I get for being long gone. You know I love a good acronym. What is CFTSOC/S?
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
2:39 pm
Melvin,
I don’t bother with who gets credit for the idea. I freely admit I was late to that party. That being said, I do want to make clear that I still think the team has the collective level of talent necessary to contend. Horford/JJ/Smoove/Jamal is a very impressive front 4, and for all the flak they get, Bibby, Marvin, and Mo are all guys who would be in the rotation on most contending teams. The problem is that right now, the whole is less than the sum of its parts. The number of guys who have regressed inexplicably over the past two years is just stunning. Marvin started getting worse at a point at which he should have been getting better. Mo went from being a solid starter for a 50-win squad to a ho-hum rotation player within 6 months of his arrival here. Even Bibby could be used more effectively – he remains one of the top PGs in the league at running the pick and roll, but we almost never use him to do that. Zaza? Wtf happened to him? I mean, I know his minutes got cut and that probably messed with his rhythm and confidence, but the dude went from a top backup C back in ‘08-’09 to a borderline scrub this year.
I think the problem is that each of the above guys – along with our Biggish Three – has come to accept their limited respective roles on the team. They have become comfortable with doing what’s expected of them and nothing more. Marvin, defend and spot up; Bibby, spot up; Mo, defend and spot up; Zaza, play physical under the basket; and Jamal, SCORE. That’s all they have ever been expected to do, and it’s all they do.
I think that is because they realize that as long as the Big Three remain together (at least without a Fourth being added who forces them to adjust), their roles will not change. This is a player’s league, and this is the Biggish Three’s team. The problem is that the Biggish Three got used to playing the way they play under Woody for 3 years together (and longer beforehand for Josh/JJ) and their habits and expectations with respect to each other have set in. Unless you do something that jolts the Biggish Three, nothing will change.
I definitely have seen people say “we need to shake things up” before, but most of the chatter I heard was still “we need to improve X or Y.” Ie I remember people saying “we need something better.” I still don’t think we need anything better. I just think we need something different. I really think that in terms of talent and skills, our players have what it takes to contend. They just can’t do it together. Thus, CFTSOC.
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
2:40 pm
Manny: Change For The Sake Of Change.
MannyT
February 23rd, 2011
2:56 pm
Got it. Thanks.Have some change in appreciation.
In this case, I’d say the change is required to put Bibby’s successor in place ASAP. Also I skeptical that Jamal gets a new deal, so I can live with moving him to get some value. It is true that the new CBA could change things, but as currently constructed, the Hawks need Jamal’s money to pay Al next season (if they are staying under the luxury tax.) Al’s current $ would go toward paying the new PG in 2011-12 season.
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
3:30 pm
Nire,
I was just poking fun at you (with CFTSOC) but I do agree with your prespective of this team. I would prefer to make changes around our big 3 (Josh,Al,JJ) b/c I think they are a solid 3 to build around. Everyone else is expandable.
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
4:01 pm
I don’t think our Big 3 matches up well with the core of some of these other teams. An incremental change is fine in the next 24 hours but I wouldn’t want to see these same 3 as our long-term plan for a title. This side of the league has gotten too thick with elite pairings to continue to wishfully hope that this threesome can become a better whole.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 23rd, 2011
5:09 pm
I think the current 3 are fine to build around IF the Hawks bring in a point guard or center who is on par with their talent level. Essentially if the Hawks make the current 3 into a “big 4″ they can contend. But if they are just looking to get complementary pieces around the current 3 (like Hinrich) they are not going to go anywhere.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 23rd, 2011
5:11 pm
I hope you’re right, AJ. I’d definitely rather see a league in which every team, small market or big market, has a chance to compete for a title if they make the right picks and sign the right free agents. I just don’t think that’s how David Stern thinks. Hopefully I’m wrong.
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
5:47 pm
I actually think Hinrich fills enough of our needs – offensively, defensively, and in intangibles – that it could make us legit.
O'Brien
February 23rd, 2011
5:56 pm
Portland is pushing hard for Gerald Wallace from Charlotte…
Do we have anything to offer Denver for Felton?
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
6:24 pm
O’B,
I’ve read in a couple places that Denver is not interested in moving Felton…
At first I thought maybe we could get in on the Wallace deal, but Portland has the ability to give Charlotte the bare minimum in expiring contracts to get Wallace, and Charlotte wants to take back the bare minimum right now because they are in even worse financial straits than the Hawks. The Cats would be saving a good chunk of change by accepting Przybilla/Mills/picks instead of Crawford/picks for Wallace. Prz/Mills are making $8.3M this year compared to $10.1M for Jamal. Considering the ‘Cats financial state and the fact that the Hawks are a division rival, I don’t see why they’d deal with us instead.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 23rd, 2011
6:28 pm
Kirk Hinrich to Hawks is almost done.
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
6:28 pm
6:20
SpearsNBAYahoo: Wizards guard Kirk Hinrich close to being dealt to the Hawks in multi-player trade, source tells Y! Sports. [via Twitter]
Najeh Davenpoop
February 23rd, 2011
6:33 pm
“Portland has the ability to give Charlotte the bare minimum in expiring contracts to get Wallace, and Charlotte wants to take back the bare minimum right now because they are in even worse financial straits than the Hawks. The Cats would be saving a good chunk of change by accepting Przybilla/Mills/picks instead of Crawford/picks for Wallace. Prz/Mills are making $8.3M this year compared to $10.1M for Jamal.”
If the Hawks also take back Nazr Mohammed and his expiring contract, they could send out Jamal/Mo/Powell to Charlotte and take back Gerald Wallace and Nazr Mohammed, which would save $3.3 million off Charlotte’s team salary this year. Considering that Mohammed would instantly become the Hawks’ best big man off the bench, this would actually help the Hawks on the court too.
The huge advantage to getting a guy like Wallace and adding another very good defender to the Hawks’ front court, is that with LeBron and Carmelo in the East playoff picture, Wallace would be able to D them up.
Of course, Wallace is getting paid $10.5 million next year, and along with the $9 million owed to Hinrich next year, that will push the Hawks pretty far into luxury tax territory (assuming the new CBA has a luxury tax).
Najeh Davenpoop
February 23rd, 2011
6:35 pm
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=47cya5t
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
6:38 pm
I think the deal will include Marvin. Who in WAS is expiring? Anyone?
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
6:42 pm
Al thornton, josh Howard, yi, Nick Young
doc
February 23rd, 2011
6:46 pm
AJ you think we get our wish from this summer, henrich?
ob it only took deron willoams to get d harris. guess we came up short there.
well if hawks no bwtter the teams coming to the phillips have gotten a lot more interesting as the balance swings east.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 23rd, 2011
6:50 pm
The rumor is that it is Hinrich for Jamal. I would ideally prefer that they expand it beyond that.
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
6:54 pm
As long as we don’t get Blatche or McGee, I’ll be thrilled. No really, I would be. A pass-first PG who can defend and who never takes a play off? I know his stats are just so-so, but he would seriously be a great fit. JJ would no longer have to chase around opposing PGs all day, we wouldn’t have to choose between a shooter and a defender down the stretch, and there actually would someone on the floor who gives 100% all the time.
We go through so much crap trying to cover for the fact that Bibby, Jamal, and (yes) Teague couldn’t defend a comatose turtle, and it exhausts the entire rest of the team.
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
6:56 pm
Najeh,
Charlotte still has the ability to trade Nazr for a cheaper expiring player. If they were interested in moving him, they’d have plenty of takers. Sorry, but like with Deron, GW was not happening. Other teams can offer “better” packages in terms of the other teams’ needs.
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
7:03 pm
multiplayer means more than 2.
So Hinrich – Jamal but according to previous reports WAS was keen one of our youngsters.
Given the fact that they have Nick Young (but expiring) Jordan would seem to be a secondary and non logical option in comparison to Teague (who would be behind Wall).
Maybe Young is too much of an headache and they don’t want to keep him.
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
7:09 pm
Alex Kennedy now:
http://twitter.com/#!/alexkennedynba
The Atlanta Hawks and Washington Wizards are nearing a deal that would send Kirk Hinrich and Hilton Armstrong to Atlanta in exchange for Mike Bibby, Maurice Evans and Jordan Crawford. The trade hasn’t been finalized, but the deal is expected to be completed before tomorrow’s deadline.
Wha? Hilton Armstrong? Because we really need yet another mediocre center? I’d much rather part with Jamal and go straight up, and I’m sure the Wizards would prefer that too. But maybe that’s too much to hope for…
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
7:09 pm
Link: http://twitter.com/#!/AlexKennedyNBA/status/40561893953388544
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
7:13 pm
Dang, it seems that it is Jordan instead of Jamal… With Mo and Bibby…
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
7:17 pm
nire,
you jinxed it when you said anyone but Blatche and Javale…
At least Hilton can jump, dunk and throw elbows. Zaza, as he is currently playing is bringing us shame and disgust with his 2” vertical and being blocked by just about everyone
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
7:17 pm
Hilton Armstrong may easily be the worse player over 6′9″ in the NBA. But I won’t complain about the cauliflower on the side if the main dish is a heaping serving of Hinrich.
Najeh, I agree with you… a big 4 (maybe). I like Hinrich and he will surely improve the team… beyond a shadow of a doubt (when healthy). But even this move doesn’t guarantee a 2nd round appearance this season.
doc, I’m almost ready to sprout a grin, but I will resist until I see an official announcement. Just our luck, Armstrong will strain his looonnngggggg neck muscle and we won’t do the deal.
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
7:18 pm
I hope that they move Jamal too…
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
7:21 pm
Semi-official:
daldridgetnt Wiz trading Hinrich/Hilton Armstrong 2 ATL 4 Jordan Crawford, Bibby, Mo Evans, first
Hinrich held out from tonight’s game and Hawks’ players informed as well.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 23rd, 2011
7:24 pm
At least one source seems to say that Cleveland might also be added into this deal. Maybe Sessions is also on the move?
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
7:25 pm
It would be kind of funny if they traded Jamal & Marvin and for Dalembert & Garcia and we look up Thursday evening and have a legit starting PG (Hinrich) and center. It won’t happen, but it would be kind of funny (and would leave me at an eat crow buffet). But man, I’d pour some BBQ sauce on that crow and would enjoy every bite (while licking my fingers clean).
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
7:26 pm
Another one:
SpearsNBAYahoo Marc J. Spears
Wiz close to trading G Kirk Hinrich & C Hilton Armstrong to ATL for G Mike Bibby
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
7:26 pm
Apparently Cleveland is involved.
Could it be Hinrich + Sessions in a deal which would imply Jamal and Bibby leaving?
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
7:26 pm
Oops:
SpearsNBAYahoo Marc J. Spears
Wiz close to trading G Kirk Hinrich & C Hilton Armstrong to ATL for G Mike Bibby, F Mo Evans, G Jordan Crawford & a No. 1 pick, source says
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
7:29 pm
Now we just need to get the Hawks to move back to Saint Louis and ask to play in the Western Conference!!!!!!!!
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
7:29 pm
OB had it right last night, it looks like the Wiz wanted JC2.
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
7:31 pm
Spears announced : Agreed according to sources
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
7:32 pm
Looks more officiaql now:
SpearsNBAYahoo Marc J. Spears
Wiz agree 2 trade G Kirk Hinrich & C Hilton Armstrong to ATL for G Mike Bibby, F Mo Evans, G Jordan Crawford & a No. 1 pick, sources tell Y!
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
7:34 pm
It looks good in every language!
ultimatenba ultimatenba
Vía Yahoo!,AHawks cierra el traspaso con WWizards. Mike Bibby, Maurice Evans y Jordan Crawford por Kirk Hinrich, Hilton Armstrong y 1a ronda
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
7:34 pm
I’m curious as to whether CLE is involved and how, though. They might just be taking one of our guys in a salary dump from WAS.
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
7:37 pm
I just got home from the gym. Read the Hawks are close to acquiring Hinrich is music to my ears…YEAH Boy… CFTSOC, oh yeah, I’m a Hinrich fan as well…. Get it done Sund..
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
7:38 pm
And no CLE and no Sessions apparently, which IMO is a shame.
Two new PGs if combined with Jamal and Bibby leaving would be golden for me.
I would not mind keeping Bibby as a backup though.
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
7:38 pm
Just a hunch, but if the deal with WAS is what’s reported, I don’t think we’re done dealing. We’d have a glut of centers and a thin backcourt. So Smoove might still be on the block.
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
7:39 pm
David Alridge is about to talk about the possible Hawks trade on NBATV in the next segment…
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
7:42 pm
ajcsportseditor ajc sports editor
Hawks trade Mo Evans, Mike Bibby, Jordan Crawford to Wizards for Kirk Hinrich and Hilton Armstrong.
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
7:43 pm
Done deal. Pop the champagne… or ripple.
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
7:44 pm
bye,bye Bibby…
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
7:44 pm
To be perfectly frank, I am fed up with Josh.
I think LD’s offense who was showing promise broke down when Josh started jacking up more and more jump shots.
Early in the season, in particular early in games, the ball rotated until an open quality shooter/shot was available, often with back door cuts by JJ, Al and Josh.
Now, the first opportunity for a jump shot is taken without looking into the paint.
If we got rid of Bibby’s decomposing carcass and Josh and Jamal’s me, me, me games, we would certainly improve dramatically.
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
7:46 pm
Pop champagne… the ASG made a move. Who cares if it’s good or bad. Sund actually made a move…
Najeh Davenpoop
February 23rd, 2011
7:48 pm
“Just a hunch, but if the deal with WAS is what’s reported, I don’t think we’re done dealing. We’d have a glut of centers and a thin backcourt. So Smoove might still be on the block.”
I could see another trade happening too, but I doubt the Hawks are going to put together a deal that big within less than 24 hours. I think it’s more likely they deal Jamal, or maybe they find a taker for Marvin.
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
7:49 pm
This is why a GM like Grunfeld acquires a player like Hinrich. He essentially got last year’s 1st round and some future 1st round pick from us for a few month rental of Hinrich. Yes, I’m glad that Sund pulled the trigger, but Grunfeld (at least in this case) masterfully played the Hinrich move. I’d love to see our GM do that.
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
7:49 pm
Vava,
you like to place the blame of the Hawks failures at one person feet. First it was Jamal, now its Josh. I agree with Nire, this collection of players have too many warts and a change in the top 6 rotational players were needed. I also, think coaching has contribute to some of the problems on the floor. So in closing, I think its a collection of problems that the Hawks experience this season. Hopefully this trade will pump new life into the Hawks…
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
7:51 pm
Well, I guess Teague will be starting tonight…. Maybe this will answer some questions about him going forward….
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
7:53 pm
Man, I don’t know. Damien is already here and was redundant (and better) than Evans. JC2 didn’t play. Yeah, we have a ton of (bad) centers but I wouldn’t forecast another move. We actually have the right number of wings and PGs (3) for a change.
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
7:55 pm
Melvin, good point… Teague gets to start. And I forgot, we only have 2 PGs (again). Maybe Teague gets back in the rotation with a good showing against Nash.
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
7:58 pm
Melvin,
Actually you are wrong: I place the failures and the laxative culture we have at the feet of the guys who have shown to be laxative:
Bibby is a lazy guy who does not take care of his body and at 32 moves like he is 40. Also, every single game AFTER a few days of rest he ALWAYS plays bad.
3 Days Rest 6 6 31.3 0.385 0.361 0.750 0.5 2.3 2.8 4.2 0.5 0.0 9.3
All averages much worse than with less rest.
Jamal is me, me, me. I don’t think he is a bad dude. He is very talented individually but he simply does not understand the game (which is collective).
Josh does not know his limitations and tried to do things he can’t instead of focusing in doing what he is built for.
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
8:03 pm
I may have not been clear on Bibby: I think he is a party goer and when gets a break, he gets wasted.
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
8:13 pm
Rumeal Robinson, Dan Dickau, Salim Stoudamire, Acie Law, Jeff Teague, Mike Bibby… after all that, I damn sure welcome Kirk Hinrich….
niremetal
February 23rd, 2011
8:16 pm
Uh? Laxative, vava? So you’re saying the team has a collective case of the $hits?
Najeh Davenpoop
February 23rd, 2011
8:17 pm
“Actually you are wrong: I place the failures and the laxative culture we have at the feet of the guys who have shown to be laxative:”
I can’t tell whether this was intentional or not.
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
8:26 pm
Has Hinrich took his physical yet? Did I mention how I like this trade…LOL… Fly him to Phx tonight…
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
8:27 pm
Marvin, ZaZa and Jamal. We may need one or two you all locker space…. Let’s make another trade Sund….
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
8:30 pm
MC just tweeted that Teague will start tonight.
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
8:32 pm
Yes, laxative: they crap their pants when faced with adversity
I meant lax but I think both fit
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2011
8:34 pm
I just hope that Captain Kirk is healthy for the remainder of the season. He tends to get nicked up (as I recall). I’ll say this, trading Bibby is more of a cultural trade than trading anyone outside of our 3 captains (sorry, I can’t call them our big 3). Bibby was the guy who got the team over the hump and into the playoffs. He seemed to be one of the few who bridged the gap between Joe and the younger players. Kudos to Sund for not only bringing in a guy with the needed skill set but also shaking the team’s stagnant culture.
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
8:36 pm
And give me a break, its 1.30AM over here! I am pumped up waiting for another trade and maybe, just maybe, I will stay up to watch Teague being butchered by Nash.
Man, the kid finally has a break and has to face Nash? F*cking hell! Why couldn’t he get to start a game against a guy like Udrih?
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
8:40 pm
A funny tweet:
KDonhoops:
RT @mhaubs: Please tell me Shelden Williams has “SHE WILLIAMS” on the back of his jersey. If he does it, I think Candace Parker should, too! [via Twitter]
N.D.T.K.A.
February 23rd, 2011
8:48 pm
Anything to get rid of Bibby and bring back some form a decency at point guard in the form of Kirk Hinrich is welcome relief…
Hate to lose JC2 but Bibby and Mo are gone. Now we find out if L.Drew can get these guys to play defense, unselfishly, and at the rim.
newkid
February 23rd, 2011
8:50 pm
This move is at least partially intended to ensure reasonable financial opportunity exists to join the Superman sweepstakes. Clearing the multi-year financial obligations to last year’s 1st and either the ‘11 or ‘12 1st, and taking on a couple of contracts that both expire before it’s D12 time is astute (for a chump like Sund). We’ll soon see just how much near-term benefit this brings.
O'Brien
February 23rd, 2011
9:01 pm
AJ,
Sund is a reactive GM. It looks like Grunfeld was actually proactive. I had a hunch the Wizards wanted JC2.
I am glad we got Hinrich, because that changes the starting lineup. Hinrich plays better defense than Bibby, and I don’t think he will be content to hang around the 3 point line all game.
Does Hinrich have what it takes to talk to Josh about his shot selection, giving up the ball on the break etc?
vava74
February 23rd, 2011
9:03 pm
Actually, I stand corrected when I said that Hilton will probably dunk more than Zaza and get blocked less.
According to 82games.com he is blocked 35% of the times he tries to score with jumpers close to the rim and 24% in total.
Zaza? 23%
Big Ray
February 23rd, 2011
9:10 pm
New blog up, guys. And…the advent of Teague the starter….;)
rammer jammer
February 23rd, 2011
9:11 pm
doc ray, najah, clyde, dr. mary b, where you at? Can we talk?
Melvin
February 23rd, 2011
9:15 pm
A steal and 3pt shot for Teague on one possesion… Pop Champagne
Horford is our Savior
February 28th, 2011
1:52 am
Atlanta…Imagine if we could buy alcohol on Sunday
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TOM_UuQzc0