Hawks fans: Will Rick Sund rock the boat?

According to NBA.com, a little over 6 days and 14 hours remains before the NBA deadline is up. Normally, most Atlanta fans would half-heartedly lament the lack of rumors surrounding the Hawks, or talk of unrealistic trade proposals. Not this year. Since when is a winning record and a mere 1 game out of 4th place in the East cause for such alarm? Since when does a guaranteed playoff spot leave such feelings of gloom and doom?

Do we as Hawks fans not appreciate the team’s 34 victories in 55 tries? Or is it something else?

 

Good teams do this, Good teams do that…

It has gotten to the point where nearly every Atlanta win comes with a handful of caveats. Well, at least if you’re reading the blogs and what not. But it’s not just local fans and media. It’s everywhere. Why? It’s now just about who you beat. It’s also about who you don’t beat. The Hawks may have a better road record this season, but they are 6-13 against teams with winning records. Needless to say (and I’m going to say it anyway), this does not bode well for the postseason. Good teams compete well against other good teams. The Hawks have not done that this season, for the large part. Good teams find a way to overcome injuries to regular rotation players. The Hawks have done that this season. Good teams know their identity and their gameplan. The Hawks act like they can only remember this for a game at a time, and sometimes only for a quarter at a time. Are the Hawks a good team, or simply one with a winning record? Like all things, this is debatable. But it’s going to be hard to argue 6-13. It’s just not what good teams do.

Rumors

As usual, there isn’t much going on out there about the Hawks and who they might like to acquire. The lone bit of noise being made has to do with alleged interest in Cleveland Cavaliers guard Ramon Sessions. It’s hard to see how Sessions would make the Hawks instant or even eventual Eastern Conference Championship contenders, and adding him is a subject of some debate as well. While some stat experts can show that Sessions has issues on defense, could he really be worse than Mike Bibby or Jamal Crawford? Interestingly enough, there isn’t much being said about his offense, which certainly has its moments. The Hawks aren’t likely to get better at the point guard position through trade or free agency, but maybe that’s not the bandaid they should reach for right now. Maybe they should focus on having a guy who can drive the ball to the basket, find his teammates when the defense collapses, and shoot from where he knows how to shoot. Is it the total package? No, certainly not. But with Bibby’s lack of penetration and Jamal’s lack of “makes his teammates better”, maybe the Hawks should settle for solving one problem instead of continuing to strike out on two of them. Is Sessions worth the pursuit? Can the Hawks do better? What do YOU think?

Rock the boat, don’t rock the boat

The only thing worse than a dejected fan is an apathetic fan. If Hawks management and ownership can’t see this, then they are blind, deaf, and dumb. But that’s precisely what is happening. Gone is the team that defended home court with a zeal not easily matched last season. In it’s place is the same guys, but the passion appears to be missing. Larry Drew says the team has become too comfortable. Is he not part of this comfort level? General manager Rick Sund needs to rock the boat. He needs to rock it hard enough that the occupants think it’s going to capsize and begin holding on for dear life. But, this is not Sund’s way. The problem is that the entire organization seems quite well lulled to sleep. Even the finger pointing has all but stopped (sans Al Horford’s recent post game comments about not getting the ball enough). Perhaps nothing is worse than having one of your team captains say that everything is alright, when so many things clearly are NOT alright. Don’t tell Drew, but I think some of the players (too many of them) are still drinking the koolaid. Things only get worse after the all-star break. The Hawks only managed to sustain a single winning streak of longer than 3 games this season, and the schedule has been rather favorable. What are they going to do against all these winning teams that are coming up?

Time to rock the boat, Rick Sund. The occupants are mostly asleep, and the ship’s captain looks like he’s contemplating abdication.

So will the Hawks stand pat once more? Will they make any move of significance? Does anybody in the front office even care? We’ll know soon enough.

 

 

By Big Ray, Hawks Fan Nest

235 comments Add your comment

atlanta 10

February 18th, 2011
1:14 am

gearon jr.

February 18th, 2011
1:40 am

If the hawks don’t win the Eastern conference championship with the current team, it’s the fans fault.
that’s right, i said it.

Ed

February 18th, 2011
2:08 am

Great stuff as always Ray. It certainly appears to me as if the Hawks are going to stand pat. Plus, the only kind of move that will truly make a difference would be a significant one that would include a Smith or Crawford type player. Going after a backup PG (Sessions) wouldn’t come close to curing the Hawks ills. This is not even mentioning the number of hands that would be involved in any trade, making it that much more difficult to come to a decision on who stays and who goes.

wordsmithtom

February 18th, 2011
2:09 am

Every GM in NBA on eggshells until the Carmelo deal comes down. Nothing happens till that one gets done.

I’d much rather have Harris from NJ over Sessions. He can drive and dish. But, nothing happens there until the CA show is a wrap.

E43

February 18th, 2011
2:29 am

from the last blog

Big Ray + Obrien- the issue about your arguments is that your throwing away the situations the hawks were in. especially with that shelden williams pick. Rajon Rondo is the only guy that i can think of that has evolved into an efficient player from that 2006 draft who else do you think could be make an impact for the hawks in that draft? as for centers. i dont think that draft has produced a single starting center. there were multiple 7 footers. say they did decide to pick point guard in that draft, who were they supposed to pick? there was a huge amount of combo guards but maybe two or three point guards. If some of these guys the hawks picked did what they were drafted to do then maybe we wouldn’t be in this predicament. Look at the al horford pick. its a sin to pick shelden a pf/c but its perfectly fine to pick horford a pf/c the very next year? and even when it does come to point guards. they did damage control by going after acie bibby and teague but they all failed aside from bibby helping us get to the playoffs his first year.

Say we didnt pick shelden. who exactly should the hawks gone after? mouhamad sene put together the best a 2006 C draft best 5rpg. The point i was trying to make was that yeah the management has swung and miss but they did do damage control. its not like they all out abandoned going after centers and point guards. in the meantime the hawks have put together 3 good seasons so. they have to be doing something right somewhere. I’m not saying that they did a great job but I refuse to say that the did a bad one.

superiorblogman

February 18th, 2011
2:35 am

Jamal, Zaza, and a 2012 1st rounder for Devin Harris. That’s rather he is part of a deal for Carmelo or not. The Nuggets were said weeks ago to not really want him because of Lawson and the Nets had better try to trade him while they can still get something for him. He is about to be 28 and has never led a team to the playoffs as one of the 2 best players. Thus, he is a 3rd wheel at best. I figure Jamal and his expiring, a big man in Zaza and a 2012 1st round pick is more than enough for a 3rd wheel who will only lose value as long as he stays in New Jersey.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 18th, 2011
2:37 am

“its a sin to pick shelden a pf/c but its perfectly fine to pick horford a pf/c the very next year? ”

The problem with the Shelden pick wasn’t his position. It was his lack of NBA-level talent and the fact that nobody else was going to pick him that high. Shelden dominated in college, but it was pretty clear watching him then that his lack of athleticism and robotic post game would not translate well to the NBA. The fact that other big men in that draft were also busts (including Rick Sund’s pick Saer Sene) doesn’t excuse picking Shelden. Even if the Hawks were to avoid swingmen after stocking up on them in the previous few drafts, and even if they (like everyone else) didn’t have Rondo rated as a top-5 player, there are literally over a dozen players taken in the first round that year after Shelden who have outperformed him. Would it have been a good choice to pass up Rudy Gay and Brandon Roy due to their position and select someone like, for example, Randy Foye or Kyle Lowry at #5 overall? No, but at least they would have contributed something, which is a lot more than Shelden gave this team.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 18th, 2011
2:40 am

Horford, on the other hand, is leaps and bounds ahead of Shelden when it comes to talent. Ultimately, even if you pick a player who doesn’t fill a need, the player should at least justify his draft position with his talent. The Marvin pick, for example, wouldn’t receive nearly the criticism it does if Marvin had developed into a star by now. Yes, the Hawks would still need a point guard and Marvin may still seem superfluous, but it would be forgiven if he actually played like a #2 pick.

tjhook

February 18th, 2011
2:45 am

I would like to see the Hawks attempt to bring back Josh Childress and trade Marvin Williams. The Hawks have scoters but needs a wing player with a variety of talents. This is why Mo Evans is in the starting lineup. Childress upon returning would be a better version of Evans: perimeter defender, above the rim athlete, ability to make offensive plays without the ball in his hands. Teague would not have to worry about running the offense so much because Childress can handle the ball under pressure.

Ain't That the Truth, Ruth

February 18th, 2011
3:07 am

“Drinking the Cool-Aid” means the opposite of how you’ve used it. If the Hawks are drinking the Cool-Aid, as you say, then that means they ARE in fact buying into Drew’s program.

superiorblogman

February 18th, 2011
4:14 am

Ain’t That the Truth, Ruth

February 18th, 2011
3:07 am

“Drinking the Cool-Aid” means the opposite of how you’ve used it. If the Hawks are drinking the Cool-Aid, as you say, then that means they ARE in fact buying into Drew’s program.

No, he means they are thinking that they are better than they are. They are thinking that they could actually get to the Eastern Conference Finals, they are thinking they are elite. When atleast half of the 15 players they have are unproductive which is just wasteful and ridiculous.

superiorblogman

February 18th, 2011
4:16 am

Ain’t That the Truth, Ruth

February 18th, 2011
3:07 am

“Drinking the Cool-Aid” means the opposite of how you’ve used it. If the Hawks are drinking the Cool-Aid, as you say, then that means they ARE in fact buying into Drew’s program.

Nope, drinking the kool-aid could also refer to them drinking Sund’s kool-aid of them being elite and capable of making it to the Eastern Conference Finals

RomeDawg

February 18th, 2011
6:04 am

Josh Childress???? He has gone missing in Phoenix. If he were half as good as he thought he was he would be Jordan himself. He was “OK” here, sucked overseas and sucks in Phoenix so PLEASE do NOT bring Childress back.

The inconsistent play we get mirrors the inconsistent players we have. Josh Smith looks like an All Star some nights and All Area in High School on others. I wish he would quit relying on the jumper. Marvin….well he’s Marvin. Bibby is drawing Medicare and JJ will always be Robin, not Batman. Horford is a stud but he has to play out of position to mask our lack of size. Sometimes I feel that when Crawford enters the game the other players check out mentally because they know he is a black hole, when the ball comes to him, it ain’t coming back. The rest of the bench is too insignificant to mention.

ROCK THE BOAT!!!!

The Real Hawk

February 18th, 2011
6:59 am

Still owned by the clowns so all moves will be financially driven and not winning driven.
That includes no moves.

dap01

February 18th, 2011
7:25 am

If we don’t rock the boat we are still sinking. This team has peaked and we are what we are. The Hawks can not get out of the first round because we have such pronounced weaknesses and patterns a good coach will kill us. Milwalkee almost beat us even though the team had injuries.

Larry is all talk and no conviction. The hawks are such a poorly constructed team. We have 2 good pf’s and 2 good sg’s, an average sf and the 46th rank pg in the league.

O'Brien

February 18th, 2011
8:34 am

E43,

I understand picking Shelden, because he was arguably the best PF available. What I don’t understand is picking him 5th when nobody had him rated that high.

BK should have found a trade that allowed us to move down in the draft (outside the top 10). And since we were under the cap, we could have traded the #5 pick to another team, for lets say, the #12 pick, and filler (whether that is another low draft pick, or a player from the other team).

I think Shelden would have still been available. But (imo) nobody would trade with BK, because the rumor was already out that he had promised Shelden he would take him at #5. It was also rumored that Shelden stopped working out because he knew he would go 5th.

O'Brien

February 18th, 2011
8:40 am

I think Hawks need to rock the boat, because it will show fans that they are willing to make a move to try and improve, and it will show the current players that they are not happy with how they are playing.

I was a fan of Sessions when he was available 2 years ago. He is not the shooter that Bibby is, and his defense is almost as bad as Bibby. But I liked the fact that he got the FT line, was cheaper (he signed for 4 years, $16 mil), and he was still young, so he would have the opportunity to improve, and would be more tradeable later on. Instead, we resigned Bibby for 3 years, $18 mil.

I think trading for him now is a band aid, but if we are only giving up Mo Evans and Teague, I would do it. That would allow Jamal to play more SG (and not backup PG), and Bibby’s minutes could be reduced when he is struggling.

But of course, that means picking up extra salary for the next 2 years at $8.75 mil.

E43

February 18th, 2011
8:46 am

Najeh- i know about Shelden and i agree that Horford is light years ahead of him. The problem i had was that they concluded that the hawks had done a poor job in the front office and i just feel like its unfair to say so especially because the hawks did try to address certain needs with picks but failed. The hawks may not have addressed need immediately but they did do so at some point or another. The only need they haven’t tried to address has been the center position. basically all i did was give the hawks credit for building guys like Horford and Smith up. This is a team that almost had three all-stars and two of which we drafted. There are teams making real bad moves out there. compared to the rest of the league, that office has done enough to survive. not pass or fail.

jack bower

February 18th, 2011
8:48 am

Josh, ZAza, and a first rounder for Nene and Ty Lawson. Lawson, J Johnson, Marvin, Al, and Nene sounds pretty solid to me. You get a pg and a big. Most importantly we get rid of Josh who just doesn’t get it and never will.

coachx

February 18th, 2011
8:59 am

Yes Sessions makes the Hawks better. Bibby can’t play 30 + minutes any more. I can see Sessions and Bibby splitting time 50/50 and / 0r letting the hot hand get more minutes. Let a little competition for playing time take effect. Sessions has handled that his whole carreer and Bibby is a veteran who has said many times he doesn’t cane about his personal stats anymore. Point being, both guys can take some competition.

What Sessions has that Teague will never have is the natural basketball IQ of a PG.

I hope the Hawks can hold on to Jordan Crawford and trade Teague / Mo / 2nd for Sessions.

Mr Mojo

February 18th, 2011
9:16 am

NJ is going to send Harris to Den if the Melo deal goes through. Den wants to mvoe Harris. why cant we do something with Marvin, Teague and a 1st for Harris and Murphy? This deal makes us betetr now and gives us PG of the future.

Mr Mojo

February 18th, 2011
9:17 am

Murphy going to Den in the Melo deal as well. Getting Nene and Harris is probably unrealistic.

Mr Mojo

February 18th, 2011
9:18 am

Also, All you ttrade Josh people are the ones that dont get it. Trading Josh is not the answer

Dino

February 18th, 2011
9:21 am

“Rajon Rondo is the only guy that i can think of that has evolved into an efficient player from that 2006 draft who else do you think could be make an impact for the hawks in that draft?”

@E43 : … and Rajon Rondo was selected with the pick we gave to the Suns in the Joe sign-and-trade…

Actually, even if Joe was signed directly and we kept Diaw and the 2 first picks, I bet we would not have picked Rondo with the pick, when you see we picked Shelden with the 5th :(

Eric

February 18th, 2011
9:43 am

Josh and Al are the future of this franchise, the team folds if you trade either. The weakest links in my opinion is Marvin Williams and ZaZa Pachulia, and the Hawks are hurting at there positions (starting small forward and back-up Center).Al Harrington, Antawn Jamison just putting some names out there, the Hawks should trade for a solid starting forward.

niremetal

February 18th, 2011
9:53 am

Ray,

According to Synergy, Sessions is one of the 5 worst defenders in the league using their formula, which is a pretty complex one that looks at each individual defensive possession. So yeah, he clearly could be worse than Crawford and Bibby. He actually is eerily reminiscent of a young Jamal on defense – his lateral quickness is not as impressive as his speed in the open floor or his quickness to the hole, and he compounds that error by taking many plays off altogether.

If he put his mind to it, he obviously could be solid defensively despite his middling lateral quickness for a PG (see: Derek Fisher). But that’s not likely to happen. People like to think that young players will come around and give better effort as they mature, but reality is that rarely is the case. If someone doesn’t give it his all when he’s young and has something to prove, he probably isn’t going to give it his all later. See: Jamal Crawford.

Jesse

February 18th, 2011
10:06 am

A quicker PG would be nice. Teague just doesn’t have the confidence to play at this level… or the jump shot. What we need is a SF who will drive to the basket, or a PG who will do that. The Hawks settle for too many jump shots. They need a guy who can draw fouls and get to the line. Marvin did that the other night with 8 FT attempts, but he needs to do that every night. I’d make a trade. This team will never win a RING unless they get a better PG and a legit Big Man.

ATLSN

February 18th, 2011
10:09 am

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http://www.atlsportsnation.com/forum

We have team forums for the Falcons, Bulldogs, Hawks, Braves, Yellow Jackets, Thrashers, etc. Please register and post! Be apart of a huge site in the early days of existence. See ya there! We’re looking for posters, moderators, bloggers/writers. Join up if interested.

O'Brien

February 18th, 2011
10:10 am

nire,

I havent seen much of Sessions, so I can’t speak for his defense. My question is, does he guard his man more often than Bibby does?

Bibby’s defense is bad, but sometimes JJ guards the PG (and we have also used switching to cover up for Bibby), so maybe Bibby’s numbers would be even worse if he defended other PGs all the time.

I’m just wondering, as bad as Sessions is defensively, maybe the Hawks would be willing to take their chances with him defending the other PG. Because when JJ defends them, or we switch, that sets off a chain reaction that complicates things.

Also, based on the formula, is Duhon better than Sessions? If so, Hawks could cut Etan, and offer the TPE to Orlando for Duhon.

steve brown

February 18th, 2011
10:16 am

Sessions has a greater upside than any point guard we currently have (he can score and more importantly he can be a double digit assist man). If we acquired Sessions we would only have a weakness at center. It is called taking a risk-just do it. I think some sort of trade will be made because our ownership group will attempt to deflect the Thrasher venom through a move-not very clear thinking but typical for this bunch.

steve brown

February 18th, 2011
10:18 am

I can see the day when many of these posts are ads for other blogs. I don’t think I like it.

Melvin

February 18th, 2011
10:23 am

Excellent blog Big Ray. I hope those in the front office reads it. Also, I think the boat need to be over turn by getting rid of Sund and LD along with some players. I know that’s not going to happen doing the season but at least acquire a player or two to rock the boat. I welcome Sessions with open arms. I could careless with his defensive stats look like, I can’t imagine him being any worse than Bibby/Jamal. He would add penetration and dishing abilities that this team sorely lacks.

niremetal

February 18th, 2011
10:37 am

O’B,

The defensive score is based on how well you defend the man you’re guarding (and it breaks it down by possession) as compared to how effective other players are at guarding the same player, and takes into account the offensive score of the player(s) you guard. Since it’s a relative measure, it accounts for differences in the quality of player that you’re guarding. In other words, you get more credit when Chris Paul misses a shot while you’re guarding him than when Trevor Ariza misses a shot while you’re guarding him. So it takes that into account. Not only that, but it takes into account how efficient the other player the other guy is at scoring on the specific type of play for each possession – which means that you get more credit for stopping Chris Paul in transition than you do for stopping Chris Paul when he spots up.

Bear in mind that Bibby actually does guard the opposing PG many possessions each game, and those possessions (on which Bibby presumably does quite badly) factor into the overall score.

niremetal

February 18th, 2011
10:40 am

And the 5 worst defenders (min. 300 plays) were J.R. Smith, Ramon Sessions, Daniel Gibson, Marco Belinelli, Nic Batum. I was surprised to see Batum on there. It’s clear that his defense has fallen off noticeably this year, but I didn’t think it had fallen off THAT much…

bjrufino

February 18th, 2011
10:42 am

it’s the fans fault they don’t watch hawks home games, we should go to philips arena every home game and support the hawks not other team, understood???

Najeh Davenpoop

February 18th, 2011
11:00 am

Sessions may or may not be a long term solution, but if all the Hawks are giving up to get him are expiring contracts and second round picks I don’t see the problem. If your risk is zero, even a modest reward is worth it. We do definitively know that Sessions can do one thing better than anyone else on this team, and that is getting to the foul line. If his defense sucks, so what? It’s not like the Hawks are giving up much of value to get him. The only reason it would be a bad deal is if the Hawks passed up on a better trade opportunity to get him, and so far it doesn’t look like such an opportunity has manifested itself.

niremetal

February 18th, 2011
11:04 am

I never said I wasn’t in favor of trading for Sessions. Just was saying that we shouldn’t expect our defense to improve much with him. I still say it’s time for…

CFTSOC

Astro Joe

February 18th, 2011
11:07 am

Where’s the offering plate? I like what Rev. Big Ray is preaching!

Rufus1

February 18th, 2011
11:07 am

Trade our 1st rd pick…

Trade our 1st rd pick + Mo and Damien for session and Parker. If he becomes our starting PG for the next 3 years, isn’t he worth the 24th pick or higher.

This will be the best team and the best finishers he has ever played with. He might average 8 or 9 ast a game with Joe, Al, Josh and Marvin on the floor. His game is going to the basket, we have no one that does that with regularity and we only need an average defender at the point…That has to be worth our 1st round pick.

Astro Joe

February 18th, 2011
11:42 am

Here’s Hollinger’s write-up on Sessions. The description of his offense sounds polar-opposite of Bibby’s strengths.


+ Clever pick-and-roll operator who uses size and handle to score, draw fouls.

+ Average athlete but one with good size and toughness; good rebounder for size.

+ Poor outside shooter who struggles in catch-and-shoot and from free throw line.

It’s unclear why Sessions came off the bench when he was Jonny Flynn’s equal on offense and a vast improvement on defense. Unfortunately, he was nearly as miscast in the triangle as Flynn was, as his core talent, running pick-and-roll, went neglected while he was forced into being a spot-up shooter.

He could hardly be more ill-suited for the assignment, as he’s made only 10 3s his entire career. He was better than usual on long 2s at least (42.1 percent), and finished fifth among point guards in rebound rate. Nonetheless, it’s hardly shocking that his numbers dipped so much given that he went from a fairly ideal system for his skills in Milwaukee to a terrible one in Minnesota. His contract (three years left, $12 million) can provide incredible value in the right situation, so he could end up being a steal for Cleveland

Astro Joe

February 18th, 2011
11:51 am

I don’t doubt that what Synergy says, but it is interesting that the Cavs (absent a shot-blocker and having lost a ridiculous number of games) have 2 players in the bottom 5. If you believe that he can fill at least 2 needs for this team (someone who can generate FTAs and someone who can penetrate and set-up teammates for easy looks), then I’m all for it. I’d love to think that the front-office has a list of skill gaps and try to find players who can fill those needs.

Mike Woodson

February 18th, 2011
12:27 pm

Should have kept me I had jamal Crawford thinking team first

On the fence fan

February 18th, 2011
12:28 pm

Love this blog man Rock that boat like the Titanic

The Truth

February 18th, 2011
12:28 pm

It looks like Sessions game is a projection of what Jeff Teague’s game will look like with extended minutes. A player capable of breaking-down the defense; can get to the free-throw line but can’t shoot the 3-ball and a par shooter from the perimeter. Jeff may actually be a better defender once he’s seasoned with more PT. From the big picture prospective, acquiring Session could be a regression for the Hawks since they invested so much in Teague. If they are going to replace Teague, they better make sure the replacement is a bona fide upgrade and will be worth their past mistake.

The Truth

February 18th, 2011
12:43 pm

What on earth is the plan for Pape Sy? How does he fit in all of this? Does he suppose to be a big PG or SG or a SF? How does his DL stats of

PPG 8.1
RPG 3.6
APG 1.4
EFF +6.85

translate to the NBA for the Hawks to use him? Was this a wasted pick? If not, can they use him this season? With LD already tight rotation, probably not as he will be coaching scared for the rest of the season.

Ken Strickland

February 18th, 2011
12:45 pm

RSessions wouldn’t be my choice, but I certainly wouldn’t complain if we got him because he’s certainly an upgrade over what we’re using now. I keep reading comments from bandwagon jumping fans who mimic whatever they hear about Teague and regurgitate it back as if it’s a proven fact. It’s the same crap that’s fueled the same excuses for every guard drafted since Woodson’s arrival.

Some of you are so quick to absorb any lame excuse offered, without thinking, to justify any dislike or support of certain players. We’ve heard these BS excuses offered up by LDrew about Teague lacking the aggressiveness he demands of his PG, yet that quality certainly hasn’t prevented fellow guard Jordan Crawford, who’s certainly not lacking in aggressiveness in any form, from getting the same negative treatment Teague’s getting.

LDrew’s abvious willingness to settle for MBibby’s unique form of aggressiveness(and that word is the word very lightly in regards to Bibby), along with his lowly 9.3PPG and 3.6APG, demonstrates a need for him to start searching for another lame A$$ excuse for not giving Teague a legitimate opportunity to show if he can resolve the PG issues that are currently being presented by an over reliance on MBibby and JaCrawford.

How utterly STUPID and ILLOGICAL is it for a NBA HC to think he can continuously use his 2 worse perimeter defenders to resolve the teams serious issues with PERIMETER DEF? Can anyone name another HC or GM that’s dumb enough to even consider the thought of starting MBibby, let alone playing him 30MPG, especially with his OFF limitations,inconsistency, low overall production, and long standing DEF liabilities?

dap01

February 18th, 2011
12:48 pm

The Truth: There is no plan in the entire Hawks organization for anything!

Hazeltine

February 18th, 2011
12:51 pm

Jeff Teague does not have the passing instincts to be a successful NBA PG. Sure, he’s quick, fast, has some range, can get to the rim occasionally, and has sticky hands, but that just makes him a 6′1″ SG.

Hazeltine

February 18th, 2011
12:53 pm

Also, it seems that the Hawks brass is content with just making the playoffs. They call it “being competitive.”

O'Brien

February 18th, 2011
1:04 pm

Interesting defensive breakdown.

AJ,

Based on Hollinger’s notes, Sessions would be a welcome addition, because he does not take as many jumpers as Bibby. So when we get jumper happy in the 4th, he is more likely to try and get to the line. Bibby is content to stand by the 3-point line and shoot jumpers all game.

Najeh,

I think the reason ASG will not trade for Sessions at the deadline is because they dont know what the new CBA will look like for next year, so they dont want to pick up an extra $3 – $4 mil in salary for next year.

I think that will also stop them from going after Duhon with the TPE (if he is available).

Ken S,

Teague and Jordan are in different positions. Teague is playing behind Bibby, who as we all know struggles mightily at times. And sometimes Jamal runs the point.

Jordan is playing behind JJ, who is playing very well overall, and behind Jamal (although he is streaky). Plus, Mo Evans also gets time at SG.

I do think LD can find more time for both of them though..

Ken Strickland

February 18th, 2011
1:09 pm

The rediculous idea that JTeague can’t shoot the 3, or is a below par shooter from the perimeter, is a perfect example of people believing what they hear others repeat, rather than doing any research and thinking for themselves. Here’s a perfect example of that: BIBBY(TEAGUE)

2PTFG% 43.8%(43.3%), 3PTFG% 44.7(40.0%). Somehow, this extremely lame and unjustifiable excuse has been put in the minds of those looking for any lame excuse, and is being repeated to promote Bibby and crush Teague. Otherwise, how can anyone continue to believe that a .5 difference in 2PTFG%, and a 4.7 difference in 3PTFG% makes Teague an awful shooter and Bibby the absolute bomb? WHERE’S THE DAMNED LOGIC?

All that’s needed at this point is for LDrew to stop being an excuse making A$$ and give Teague the same opportunity that Bibby’s been given. Except in Teagues case, it will be an opportunity to show what he CAN DO, while Bibby has used his opportunity to consistently demonstrate what he CAN’T DO.

O'Brien

February 18th, 2011
1:14 pm

Another trade I proposed on the other blog, which would really shake things up…is Josh Smith and filler for Nene and filler.

Nene can play Center, which would allow Al to play PF full time. And Josh would instantly become Denver’s best PF (and I think his game would improve under George Karl).

Nene has a player option for next year, and would probably not want to stick around if Denver trades Melo and starts rebuilding, so Denver might trade him too.

He is injury prone, so maybe Denver can sweeten the deal a little bit, although they would still have to work out another trade for a Center.

Another option I thought about was Chris Kaman (who is expendable due to the emergence of DeAndre Jordan). But Kaman is just as injury prone, and I think he has 2 years left on his deal, whereas Nene only has one.

MannyT

February 18th, 2011
1:20 pm

Saying the Hawks are a Ramon Sessions away from moving into being a real contender in the east is like saying Donald Trump is only a casino away from sweating Bill Gates on the billionaire list.

It might be a minor improvement, but it doesn’t move the meter.

If you believe that then you probably believe the only thing that is stopping the ASG from being great owners is getting 100 more paying fans/game.

This is Sund rocking the lifeboat while it is locked into position on a cruise ship.

No hate for Bibby. How much did you really expect from him? Has he gotten worse since last year? I see the problem as no improvement from Teague, Joe & Jamal having a (temporary?) performance decline, limited success on the off season strategy of min salary big men, no real bench improvement beyond Wilkins who was only added due to more injuries/health problems this season.

I still give more credit to Orlando for taking a risk to move up than standing still with a group they didn’t think could win. This isn’t NASCAR where you can win a title by coming in 3rd every week. This is the only excuse I’ll give Sund–if he cannot make a significant improvement, there’s no need to trade for the sake of doing something.

Back to the shadows…

jfreak13713

February 18th, 2011
1:25 pm

I think Sund does care because his job is on the line in the long run but it’s ownership that seems not to have their head in the game. I don’t see the Hawks making any big moves and LD isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. For the most part what you see is what you get with the Hawks and from a fans perspective there is no real hope in sight? The Hawks will probably win 48 – 50 games and make playoffs as 4th or 5th seed but nobody including the Hawks believe their is much hope for a deep playoff run. So what you get is players playing for their paychecks and nothing more and money can only motivate so much.

coops

February 18th, 2011
1:33 pm

Good points all but Hawks only need two players… strong PG and a real, center sized center that can run. After that, they should stick to an up tempo game and use the half court game less – Hawks have consistently shown they are best in an open court game. Drew needs to MAKE Josh stop standing in the corner and move him around. Joe needs to accept his role as the leader or handle the team…why let Horford do it? If he can’t, move him and his contract and use what you’ve got.

Play on if you want to stay on!

dap01

February 18th, 2011
1:36 pm

When the Hawks hired Billy Knight, he was the least expensive hire available. When the Hawks hired Woody, he was the least expensive hire available. When the Hawks hired Sund, he was the least expensive hire available. When the Hawks looked for players, they look for the least expensive hires available.

See a pattern?

Astro Joe

February 18th, 2011
1:40 pm

Some radio reports out there say that the Nets and Nuggets have a greed a trade… just waiting for Melo to agree to the contract terms. Once the deal gets done, I expect several trades to pop in the next few days. Guys may be trying on different uniforms during the AS weekend (it would be kind of funny to watch Melo start the game with a West uni on and finish with the East squad).

Astro Joe

February 18th, 2011
1:42 pm

So Derrick Rose scored a career high last night, huh? Who was checking him, Bibby? Surely some other slow-footed PG. Quick PGs never give up a lot of points. :twisted:

Ken Strickland

February 18th, 2011
1:54 pm

OBRIEN-The point is, Jordan isn’t playing at all, no matter who he’s playing behind. Here’s the bottomline. He’s young, he’s a rookie, and it appears that LDrew seems to share the same stupid bias that Woodson had toward players that fall into this category. We have those who are stuck in the past with their constant references to who we COULDA, SHOULDA drafted.

But the fail to factor in the fact that if we had drafted DWilliams, or CPaul or BRoy, we definitely wouldn’t be seeing the All Star performers we’ve seen over the last few yrs. After all, they too would have been inexperienced rookies sitting on the bench and definitely receiving the WOODY TREATMENT. Woody felt CPaul was too small and DWilliams was too plump, and with JJ playing ahead of Roy, he would have gotten the WOODY TREATMENT as well.

From the time of MWoodson’s first draft to the present, we’ve developed only 4 players, and 3 of them or current starters, PF JSmith, SF MWilliam and C AHorford. The 4th player was swing man JChildress. The approach Woodson used with these players was to give them plenty of mins, let them make mistake, and develop as they learn from their mistakes. As a result of that approach, we have one 2 time All Star(AHorford), one All Star caliber performer(JSmith), and one of the NBA’a best 5th scoring options, and who plays good DEF. And JChildress develop into an annual challenger for the 6th MOY award.

The approach Woodson chose for his guards, which is being repeated by LDrew, is what I call the WOODY TREATMENT, and has yielded absolutely nothing. The Hawks are in the 7th yrs since Woodson was hired, and we’re still having serious problems at PG because of this absolutely STUPID and UNPRODUCTIVE approach. The only thing we’ve managed to develop, from using the approach towards rookie guards that Woodson started and Drew has continued, is more of the same unresolved problems we started out having at PG.

tremaine

February 18th, 2011
1:55 pm

The hawks should have started Teague a month ago. Then they would have had enough time to see if he can run the team. If not then make the trade for Sessions.

The U

February 18th, 2011
2:04 pm

I couldn’t agree more with you Mr. Strickland. That ole saying “doing the same thing and expecting different result” applies to Drew and his handling of his young guards.

Ken Strickland

February 18th, 2011
2:10 pm

ASTRO JOE-That was cold.

Ken Strickland

February 18th, 2011
2:40 pm

DAP01-I wouldn’t consider JJ THE LEAST EXPENSIVE HIRE AVAILABLE, nor would I consider MWilliam, ZPachulia, MBibby, AHorford or JSmith as the LEAST EXPENSIVE HIRES AVAILABLE.

LDrew, along withRSund and the ASG, must stop making excuses and start making changes, and they have about a week to get it done. Here’s what I see as the difference between MWoodson and LDrew.

1-LDrew actually gives a damn about the OFF, which seems to be about the only thing he seems to give a damn about, and MWoodson openly admitted that he didn’t.
2-Woodson wouldn’t acknowledge recognition a problem even if he knew it existed. LDrew does acknowledge his awareness of a problem, but while he’ll offer up potential solutions, we usually end up getting little more than lip service and excuses.
3-LDrew has proven to be a bit more flexible than Woodson in his willingness to make adjustments and utilize his bench.

Other than these 3 issues, I don’t see enough of anything else that significantly separates the 2 HC’s.

The Truth

February 18th, 2011
2:43 pm

It is a fair question to ask why Josh Smith is camped-out on the 3-point line when he is playing PF. In contrast, do you see Horford camped-out there when he’s playing PF? No, Al is at his sweet spots. If Josh is out of position then it’s the coach responsibility to point that out and make adjustments. If he doesn’t, then LD should share the blame for Josh’s ill-advised shot selection. Often I wonder does Josh really see LD as his HC or just a continuation of Woody’s assistant playing the HC role. Perhaps that assistant coach rapport is still there and has not been broken to explain Josh consistent defiant of LD’s instructions.

dap01

February 18th, 2011
2:46 pm

KS: I agree, my point should have been that the decision makers are always the “cheapest hire”.

Where is this franchise headed?

The Truth

February 18th, 2011
2:49 pm

So LD has yet to really assert himself as HC respect to Josh Smith (it’s seem). This falls in the area of leadership or lack there of.

Astro Joe

February 18th, 2011
2:55 pm

The Truth, Josh shoots 3s because he wants to. Al doesn’t want to (yet). Evidently the head coach of the Atlanta Hawks is unable to dictate the shots his players take… so he is at the mercy of their wishes. We should all be grateful that Zaza and Twin and others don’t want to take 3-point shots.

The Game Has Changed

February 18th, 2011
3:19 pm

The problem with the Hawks is we should have kept Mike Woodson. How can you fire a coach that have improved every year. We are what we are. A second round team. Well, we were last year. Now we are a first round team. Not to mention, we wont win as many games as we did last year. Drews job will be on the line early next year. When we are sitting in 8th place midway through the season

The Truth

February 18th, 2011
3:20 pm

AJ
“so he is at the mercy of their wishes.”

That maybe “The Truth” but the coach control PT

Ideally, you would think one action (shooting ill-advised or untimely 3’s by the player) would be synonymous with a reaction (allocation of PT) which is controlled by the coach. But since this team is not the ideal NBA team with so many subpars on the bench, perhaps LD hands are tied. On a better team with a good bench, such repeated defiant actions by a player would land him in the doghouse.

Astro Joe

February 18th, 2011
3:24 pm

Woody hired LD to be his lead assistant. While that doesn’t mean that they agreed on each and everything, it likely means that they have more in common than not. Imagine that you are offered your dream job and need to hire a staff of people to ensure your success. You may hire people who have different perspectives to get a good diverse opinion but my guess is that you would share more in common than not. Over the six years, it is certainly possible that they could have “grown apart” and differed in some of the key elements of managing the team, but there was something in the DNA that brought them together initially. Anyone who expected something radically different shouldn’t blame LD, they should recognize the error in their own thinking. Woody came from the Larry Brown coaching tree. The ASG hired someone from Woody’s personal branch. If you wanted a head coach who would play rookies even while trying to win 50 games and secure homecourt advantage, then you aren’t likely getting that from the Larry Brown tree. Some of y’all seem mad that the tiger has stripes when you should be trying to figure out why you would expect a tiger NOT to have stripes.

The Game Has Changed

February 18th, 2011
3:58 pm

So AJ, all that you are saying is the Apple doesnt fall far from the tree. That is true. Ill give you that. My problem is giving up on Mike Woodson after this man brought us from the gutter. (10 years of losing) But the Thrashers made the same mistake years ago when they had a good team, Now look at them.

Veteran Fan

February 18th, 2011
4:00 pm

PLEASE trade Josh and Zaza to the Timberwolves for Kevin Love and Darko. A front line of Darko, Horford, and Love would destroy every team in the East except for Boston and they better be ready to play! Then send Bibby and Jamal to the Suns for Nash. Without Bibby, JJ might move a little and he would have no more excuses. Nash could teach Teague how to play in the NBA and Jordan Crawford could begin to develop a little with some playing time! Either deal throw in Marvin if needed! Please Rick get us some players who show up every night and earn their dollars! By the way if the Knicks panic after the Melo deal send them JJ for Galinari! That would sure free up some cash!

The Truth

February 18th, 2011
4:21 pm

Atlanta gets:

Monta Ellis

Golden State gets:

Josh Smith

If you listen to the ESPN podcast The B.S. Report with Bill Simmons, then you might have heard him mention this trade in one of his recent podcasts. But honestly, this is a fantastic trade and the crazy thing is that it really helps both teams.

Each guy is making around $11 Million this year, so they could be traded heads up for each other and according to the NBA Trade Machine, both teams get better after the trade. Atlanta is predicted to win seven more games and Golden State is predicted to win three more.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/612187-nba-trade-rumors-shocking-deals-every-team-in-the-nba-may-still-pull-off?utm_source=bleacherreport.com#page/2

ag

February 18th, 2011
4:37 pm

Guys this is not fantasy basketball. The Hawks are not going to make a major trade. Josh, Al and Joe are going nowhere… Other trades may include us taking someone else’s trash for out trash. Also, it was time for Woodson to leave, but as AJ says, hiring LD is an extension of Woody except for the great “motion” offense….

O'Brien

February 18th, 2011
4:40 pm

AJ,

If the Melo deal goes through, I think Denver will have a firesale, and alot of dominoes will fall. However, I dont think the Hawks will do anything regardless…

As for LD and Woody, I thought it was interesting that at his press conference, LD said (and I might be paraphrasing) that as an assistant, all you can do is give suggestions to the HC. And then the HC decided what he wants to do. So he was implying his suggestions were being ignored by Woody.

And I can see some of those suggestions being play the bench more, get the team to pass more etc. Unfortunately, we have lost games because LD left the bench in there too long, and the motion offense goes away in crunch time, and we get jumper happy.

(imo), LD is only a minor improvement over Woody (so far).

The Game Has Changed

February 18th, 2011
5:16 pm

Veteran Fan, why would we trade away players that have been to 3 straight playoffs, for players who may never make the playoffs. Also, THE TRUTH, Josh Smith is needed more than M. Ellis. Marvin and Za Za need to go. The Hawks messed up by not getting Shaq. He could have cleared up 4 needs.Fans,a center, Horford moving to the Pf, and Josh moving to the Sf.

Man Man

February 18th, 2011
5:21 pm

Get Roddy Beaubois from the MAVS.Dude can play

Ken Strickland

February 18th, 2011
5:22 pm

DAP01-That’s a darn good question.

To elaborate further on my earlier comment about people who listen to others and ASS-U-ME, rather than doing reseach and finding out for themselves, are only looking for excuses.

We continue to hear the claim that JSmith and JTeague can’t shoot and should be prevented from taking 3’s. Well, here are the facts:
1-JSmith’s 3PTFG%(348%) ranks THIRD(3rd), behind MBibby’s .447% and JTeague’S .400%, among all Hawk players that have taken more than 1(ONE) 3pt attempt.
2-JTeague ranks 2nd in 3PTFG%, among all Atlanta Hawk 3pt shooters.
3-JSmith’s 476FG% ranks 2nd, behind AHorford’s 568FG%, in overall FG%.

So why in the devil would anyone have a problem with JTeague or JSmith shooting 3’s, or shooting period for that matter? AGAIN I ASK, WHERE’S THE DOGGONE LOGIC?

Man Man

February 18th, 2011
5:33 pm

Ken Strickland,

Thank you for posting that.Josh smith has up his overall game a lot.IDK WHAT these bonehead fans be talking bout he needs to stop shooting.He is usually wide open or at the end of the shot clock.How is a wide open shot a bad shot i ask again?

KevinM

February 18th, 2011
5:50 pm

I have figured out why we don’t move forward and make needed changes.

We have lost our basketball expert, because no way does any team do what this team did in the offseason and be content with those moves.
Gearon nor Sund are experts, so don’t expect them to all of a suddenly light a fire.

ag

February 18th, 2011
5:50 pm

“Get Roddy Beaubois from the MAVS.Dude can play” –
If they can get that guy, he can go!!! He is third string, but I will trade Marvin for him in an instant!! The salaries may not work, but the Hawks need to make them work.

Hawks Fan In New Orleans

February 18th, 2011
5:51 pm

Zaza and Twin camped out at the 3 point line – the vision of that is priceless.
J Smoove’s stubborn, dog-headed approach to the game is his biggest drawback. While him being headstrong has paid dividends in him developing a decent long range game, that same stubbornness has kept him from attacking the rack, posting up defenders, and crashing the boards when his camping out from 3 and spreading the floor have proven ineffective…I recall before opening day, J Smoove telling the media he would stick with the midrange and not many 3’s – so much for that. Horford needs to continue to harp on his lack of touches. Raise some Hell in the locker room – respectfully, as a true leader should. Its an issue that needs to be addressed and resolved.

The Game Has Changed

February 18th, 2011
5:55 pm

Man Man you are right about Josh Smith shooting 3s. The problem is, he is a inside out player and not an outside in player. A lot of his 3s are bail out shots. Take that thang to the bucket and get folks in foul trouble. When he take 3s, Horford is left inside to grab rebounds by himself. Josh needs to be on the boards. Thats the same problem my high school coach was having with Derrick Favors when he played at my high school. He thought he was made to shoot 3s. But he soon learned the value of driving to the basket

ag

February 18th, 2011
5:57 pm

Ellis for J. Smith also goes on the list for DUMB trades. Guys again, the Hawks have to get a project and turn it into gold. Again Beaubois is the third point on Dallas. Thabeet only plays garbage minutes. Give up the exception and Marvin and we have a great deal! We are not getting ‘a center ie Dwight Howard’ for ZaZa, Etan, Wilkins, blah, blah, blah… just because the Hawks are playing Al out of position. Again, this in NOT the biggest need. In order..
1. A PG
2. A SF
3. A C
Although by addressing 3, you can fix two. We need a defensive minded center to block shot, defense and rebound, that is why I am high on the 7′3″ Thabeet. Memphis is as mad at him, blowing a 2nd round pick on him. This deal makes the most sense. Also for all of those who have given up on Teague. A couple of seasons ago, Mike Conley was looking like a pure bust. He is looking better every year and I bet by next year he will be considered among the top point guards.

Veteran Fan

February 18th, 2011
6:06 pm

To The Game has Changed The rest of the eastern conference is getting better and we have not improved! If the goal is to make the playoffs, then of course stand pat, because there are enough weak teams to let you get in! But if the goal is to contend then we are in a world of trouble! LD said it best when he said they are complacent and comfortable! Teams rise and they fall, you must keep your eye on the prize to make sure your team is rising! This group has peaked and make too much money for the results and the fans know it! Josh wanders the floor and has never developed a consistent game because he refuses to work on his weaknesses(refusal to box out, ignoring his defensive assignment to sneak around and block shots, arguing with the officials on every call, inability to pass effectively, free throws, and outside shooting). He is a gifted player without being a true professional and it hurts the whole team! JJ is lazy and unmotivated period. I have never seen a player with his size who plays below the rim when we need his size and Bibby feeds into his problems by only passing to him. By the way how many playoffs has Nash been to versus Bibby and Jamal? Darko is not great, but he does have the size to contend with Shaq, Boozer, Noah, and Howard when we need it and he does have an offensive game. Kevin Love is incredible with a complete game and an intense rebounder, brings it every night! Galinari for JJ frees up a ton of money to either draft or attract a center in the off season and he is a similiar type player, who would shine with Nash for a couple of seasons. The point is it is time to put a team on the floor who works hard every night and contends! No one expects us to win a championship, but it is vital being a fan to CONTEND and this team does not!!!! Also, to Ken Strickland, if you think 34% for three pt accuracy or 47% for a strong forward when the center who doesn’t shoot beyond the free throw line is at 57% is great for Josh then you do not realize his potential if he played like AL!

niremetal

February 18th, 2011
6:33 pm

Ken,

Teague and Josh are left wide open for their 3s. Teams dare them to shoot those. JJ, Jamal, Bibby, and to a lesser degree Marvin/Mo generally have to shoot them with a hand in their face. That’s because other teams recognize that they can live with an uncontested 3 from Teague or Josh. They can’t live with an uncontested 3 from the other guys on the Hawks who shoot them.

To Teague’s credit, he does not usually give into temptation and pull the trigger on the 3 unless it’s late in the shot clock and he’s wide open. You can’t say the same about Josh. Which is why teams are giddy that he started off the year shooting sufficiently well from deep, because now he thinks he’s a sharpshooter from out there and is actually shooting MORE of them now (2.7 per game so far in Feb) than he did earlier this year (1.3 in Nov) despite the fact that his 3P% has fallen off significantly since the new year (.302 since the new year and .211 so far in Feb).

The Truth

February 18th, 2011
6:52 pm

The Game Has Changed

“Josh Smith is needed more than M. Ellis”

Agreed, I just posted that link to inform bloggers about the chatter around the league. So that is not my recommendation. I have been and still am a fan of Josh, but his obsession with proving he can shoot is both a blessing and a curse. Yes he shoots 47.6% FG and 34.8% 3PT from the perimeter, but that’s not the flaw. The flaw is the 52.4% FG and 65.2% 3PT he misses (not to mention his high TO ranking) come during critical times in the game that cause the team a setback. His quest to be a “one-man” hero is the source of the problem. He said it himself that he is out to prove to all the EC coaches that they made a mistake in not selecting him on the All-star team. I like the cause but I don’t like the effect.

Hawks Fan In New Orleans

February 18th, 2011
6:53 pm

@ The Game Has Changed and Niremetal, do you think Smoove will ever get it? Favors ‘got it’ in highschool!
@ Big Ray – the proverbial ‘boat’ needs a rockin’. I am ultimately open to regime change. Drew treats defense like Woody treated offense – Dumb and Dumber…but realistically I am open to acquiring Sessions and of Thabeet. We could relegate Bibby to our resident assassin off the bench and 2nd unit floor leader eventually. We could nail Zaza or to the pine or ship export him to Memphis. I wanna visit his eatery next time I am in Atlanta but his game has regressed – not even a 1 star.

Hawks Fan In New Orleans

February 18th, 2011
7:00 pm

Glue – not nail Zaza to the pine. That did not read right.

niremetal

February 18th, 2011
7:04 pm

AJ,

Imagine that you are offered your dream job and need to hire a staff of people to ensure your success. You may hire people who have different perspectives to get a good diverse opinion but my guess is that you would share more in common than not. Over the six years, it is certainly possible that they could have “grown apart” and differed in some of the key elements of managing the team, but there was something in the DNA that brought them together initially.

Your efforts to compare the various components of the business of basketball to your experiences in other walks of life are consistently amusing and interesting, but rarely on-point. First off, the head coach doesn’t have exclusive say over who his assistants are. The front office usually has more than a little something to say about that (just ask Doug Collins in Chicago or Phil Jackson when he got to LA). For the “grown apart” thing, it’s clear you aren’t very well-read when it comes to basketball memoirs. Everything I’ve read (and the few guys I’ve talked to who’ve been in the business) indicates that the exact opposite of what you indicate is the rule – you far more often see coaches hire guys with different strengths and different philosophies, and then watch them “converge” to a single philosophy for coaching the team, rather than bringing in a bunch of guys who already share the same DNA or however you want to put it.

If you’re a guy like Jerry Sloan, Larry Brown, Don Nelson, or (since ‘05) Phil Jackson whose been in the business 20 years already and is pretty set in stone about their philosophies, you tend to see more of that. But that’s the exception, not the rule.

Woody hired LD to be his lead assistant. While that doesn’t mean that they agreed on each and everything, it likely means that they have more in common than not.

You ever read Seven Seconds or Less, More Than a Game, or Breaks of the Game? Head coaches often, if not mostly, hire assistant coaches precisely because they bring a different perspective to the table. D’Antoni hired two assistants in Phoenix whose offensive philosophies were quite different from his – Gentry was in the Flip Saunders “let the offense fit the team” mold (which is why he has coached both half-court and transition teams) and Iavaroni preferred a half-court oriented system (and focused more on defense anyway – something that D’Antoni has admitted he doesn’t know much about). Same with Nate McMillan/Dean Demopoulos/Monty Williams and Doc Rivers/Tom Thibodeaux/Lawrence Frank. Phil Jackson had Charley Rosen (who was his philosophical twin) as an assistant when he first came to the CBA, but went with on-court assistants (notably Jim Cleamons and Frank Hamblen) who brought a different philosophy – they eventually filled in each others’ gaps and now say they generally are of like mind, but that wasn’t the case when they first started together.

Coaches usually don’t go out and hire coaches who think like them. More often they go out with the specific intention of finding assistants who fill “gaps” in their self-perceived knowledge and philosophy of the game.

Hawks Fan In New Orleans

February 18th, 2011
7:08 pm

I have not given up on Smoove yet either. I am just frustrated with the ‘effect’ of his quest to be Mr Everything.

Ken Strickland

February 18th, 2011
7:24 pm

NIREMETAL-You’re right about both players taking wide open shots because they are usually wide open. But isn’t that when you would prefer them to take those shots, and wouldn’t you say they’re doing a pretty good job of making them? They’re certainly doing a better job than the majority of their teammates.

Any Hawk player that wants to get involved in the OFF, and doesn’t have excellent ball handling and/or one on one skills, usually has to position himself above the key if he wants to receive a pass from Bibby, since he won’t initiate the OFF below the 3pt line. That usually leaves 3 options, 1- a long drive attempt to the basket, or 2-a long jumpshot, or 3-no chance to score.Bibby doesn’t make anything easy, or easier, for his teammates, especially on DEF.

I don’t see a trade of any kind by the Hawks. The ASG wants to let our expiring contracts expire and wait for the CBA to be resolved before committing to any roster moves.

ag

February 18th, 2011
7:37 pm

I doubt any trade will be made, but they have to make a change. START JEFF TEAGUE

Ken Strickland

February 18th, 2011
7:38 pm

HAWKS FAN IN NOLA-If JSmith took a passive attitude towards his involvement in our OFF and how it’s being run, he’d most likely end up becoming another version of MWilliams. We don’t have a PG that distributes, creates easier scoring opportunities, especially anywhere near the basket, pushes the ball or the tempo, attacks the DEF or his man, gets to the FT line, or makes teams pay when they double team.

If we acquired a PG that could do all of those things, plus consistently play anything that even vaguely resembles DEF, we’d instantaneously become a far better and more consistent team overall.

Ken Strickland

February 18th, 2011
7:46 pm

AG-While I’d love to see Teague become our starting PG, I’d be content to see him get more mins more consistently. Starting him would at least guarantee a chance he’d play more with the starters, and help with reducing the problem we’ve had with falling behind early when teams are successful when targeting Bibby. Drew has to get it through his obviously thick skull that he can’t continue trying to hide Bibby’s numerous liabilities, limitations and inconsistency, which forces everyone else into playing what amounts to 4 on 5, and on both ends of the court.

ag

February 18th, 2011
7:48 pm

+ Shoot-first point guard with quick first step who likes to drive to basket.

+ Outstanding college shooter who struggled to adjust to pro 3-point line.

+ Hyper, high-risk, gambling defender; blocks shots but fouls far too often.

The mutterings from the Hawks after the season were that Teague needed to play more, but I wonder if we were watching the same guy. While he certainly showcased the talent to create shots and defend the position, and he distributed the ball decently enough, he couldn’t put the ball in the basket.

As a shoot-first point guard, that’s a problem. Teague placed 66th out of 71 point guards in TS percentage and nailed only seven 3-pointers all year, which was unexpected after he hit 44 percent at Wake Forest a year earlier. The hope is that he can turn the corner in his second season, and if he does, the point guard job awaits on a silver platter for him.

Teague also needs to calm down on defense. He excels at blocking shots from behind but lands in that situation far too often because he’s beaten so easily. He also rated third among point guards in fouls per minute, which is unacceptable for a starter.

This is what Hollinger skinny on Teague. His stats have improved over last year, and he is shooting 40% from 3pt and 43% overall.

ag

February 18th, 2011
7:56 pm

Okay, if LD does not make changes after the AS Break, his press conference will be the same (except maybe a loss to the Lakers)
“Didn’t defend the pick and roll very well, settled for two many jump shots, went away from what was working for us”.

The Game Has Changed

February 18th, 2011
8:20 pm

I must say, ALL of you guys have made valet points. I agree with all except Teague starting. (AG) I just feel for the first time since 98 we are in shooting distance of taking it to the next level. To make progress you have to make changes but all changes dont equal progress. Sund needs to make a splash soon.

ag

February 18th, 2011
8:27 pm

If u dont make a trade you have to make a change. Do you really think Teague will do WORSE than Bibby?

desee

February 18th, 2011
9:06 pm

Sund must be ready to pick up the pieces when NJ looses the Carmelo sweepstakes. NJ needs Joe and the Hawks need cap space. Trading Joe will change the team culture. Trade everyone you can, except Josh/Al/JC2.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 18th, 2011
9:24 pm

Smoove for Monta Ellis made me laugh out loud. Yeah, a trigger-happy, no-defense-playing, undersized SG is exactly what this team needs to go to the next level.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 18th, 2011
9:25 pm

Considering the title of this blog, posting this is obligatory.

Dept. of Unintended Irony

February 18th, 2011
9:33 pm

“I must say, ALL of you guys have made valet points. ”

Therefore, next time I’ll park your cars for free.

BigdaddyJ

February 18th, 2011
9:47 pm

Please sell the Hawks and keep the Thrashers!

Man Man

February 18th, 2011
9:47 pm

What does teague do better than bibby?because he sholl can’t shoot,he doesn’t have any “LOCK DOWN” defense either.So how does starting teague make this team better?Have you saw teague when he has got atleast 18 minutes of playing time?PPG will go down as a team if we start teague.Hes just not the answer.He doesn’t have that killer instinct in him and it makes me mad when he gets on the floor and make silly mistakes.Damn bibby don’t turn the ball over.Be careful what you wish for.

Rufus1

February 18th, 2011
10:04 pm

How little we need from the PG….

The 1st problem was not using the early part of the season to start Teague when you had the leeway from management. If you didn’t think he could do the job, he would have proved that thru his play. Now we have NO PG of any value on the team.

We don’t need as much as people think from the PG…… We need a player who can play reasonable defense, create any easy shots at the basket and the fear of SPEED. We are games with the WORST PG siyuation in the league, SO HOW MUCH DO WE REALLY NEED FROM THAT POSITION.

The Hawks are a team built on being GOOD at every position(not great), they can’t offset a liability like Bibby unless someone has a great performance. If every player does their job against a good team, we lose. Bibby would have to get 10ast a game, while attacking the basket to offset his defense. He

Teague’s benefit. ..
SPEED.. His speed on the break would get the Hawks 4 to 6pts a game on the break.
QUICKNESS… He would be one of the top players in the league in steals..
ATHLETICISM… He is as athletic as Josh, but at the PG
REBOUNDING… our rebounding would improve because he could chase down more balls.
YOUTH…. Boundless energy
PERIMETER ‘D”…His recovery speed
JOE… would nolonger get worn down from guarding those PG… he would be fresh in the fourth.
Bibby… would have fresh legs to shot his 3pt shots….I believe he would shot 50%…and get 8pts in 15 to 20min
Jamal… Jamal could be Jamal or be traded for a center that can finish around the rim.

These are the reasons I want Teague and some of the reasons I support the Sessions trade.

We are at the Elite door…Those other teams are 2 or 3 plays a game better than we are with Bibby at the helm. WE JUST NEED A LITTLE SOMETHING EXTRA TO KICK THE DOOR IN.

Rufus1

February 18th, 2011
10:10 pm

Bibby’s AST

He get 2 kind of ast…

1) Pick and Pop with Al
2) Back door Josh

Melvin

February 18th, 2011
11:38 pm

When was the last time the Hawks had a player in the rookie-sophmore game? The Spurs has the best record in the league and have two rotational players playing in the game….

O'Brien

February 18th, 2011
11:45 pm

If I’m Melo, I would not sign with the Nets. By giving up 4 first round picks, they will be unable to acquire cheap talent in the future.

Even if they get Chauncey, he will either request a buyout, or decline his option next year and become a FA (imo). So who becomes the Nets PG then? And Brook Lopez is good, but he is not a dominant player.

Plus how many big name FA will want to sign with NJ/Brooklyn?

At least in NY he already has Amare, and CP3 will try and make his way there in 2 years. I think Anthony finds a way to get the Knicks to do whatever it takes to make a deal, so he can sign an extension with them.

O'Brien

February 18th, 2011
11:48 pm

Melvin,

The Hawks are trying to win 50 games, so they dont have the time to develop young talent.

Real talk though, the bottom line is the Spurs have an eye for talent, and their coach knows how to coach that talent.

If Shelden was drafted by the Spurs, he would probably be their starting PF by now (instead of possibly being traded to team number 7 in 5 years). The Spurs are that good :smile:

Big Ray

February 18th, 2011
11:56 pm

Ain’t That the Truth, Ruth

February 18th, 2011
3:07 am
“Drinking the Cool-Aid” means the opposite of how you’ve used it. If the Hawks are drinking the Cool-Aid, as you say, then that means they ARE in fact buying into Drew’s program.

I did not know there was a strict universal rule on what “drinking the cool-aid” means. Either way, how I meant it and how you took it are two different things, and that’s cool….

However……

Superiorblogman caught the meaning right away! :)

Big Ray

February 18th, 2011
11:57 pm

Dept. of Unintended Irony

February 18th, 2011
9:33 pm
“I must say, ALL of you guys have made valet points. ”

Therefore, next time I’ll park your cars for free.

I LOVE this guy, whoever he is. Too funny :lol: :lol: :lol:

Big Ray

February 19th, 2011
12:02 am

E43 ,

Actually, I can appreciate the Hawks’ position at that time than you think I can. The problem, as eloquently stated by others, was that nobody saw Sheldon as nearly good enough to pick as high as 5th. If Billy Knight was absolutely fixated on taking him, he could have traded down and gotten more assets in the process.

If he was fixated on keeping the 5th pick, he should have picked a far more desirable asset. Let’s say he takes Brandon Roy instead of Sheldon. At this point, he could have traded the rights to Roy if he wanted, and gotten another player, plus probably another pick (or something to that effect). Or, he could have kept Roy. Imagine if we had drafted and kept Roy. After watching him do his thing (to the team’s benefit) for a year or two, we could have traded Roy off for something of value, that actually fit and helped the team.

Instead, we took Sheldon (who nobody wanted all that badly). What value did Sheldon end up having? If you don’t remember, let me refresh you: he was one fourth of a contingent of sorry players that we traded to Sacramento for one Mike Bibby….a guy that most fans are complaining about even as we speak.

Asset management my friend, asset management.

doc

February 19th, 2011
12:02 am

agree manny t agree whole heartedly especially with the summer summary. stsnd pat and stand down for hawks fans.

Hawks Fan In New Orleans

February 19th, 2011
12:11 am

@ Ken, I agree. We definitely don’t need another Duck out there. But there has to be wisdom to the assertiveness – shot selection is breaking this team and just because we don’t have a true facilitator on the floor does not mean Smoove can’t be more tactful when he has the rock. Wish he was more like Blake Griffin than Big Dog

Big Ray

February 19th, 2011
12:11 am

AJ ,

Yeah, I heard Rose put up 42 against the Spurs….

Big Ray

February 19th, 2011
12:13 am

Hawks Fan In New Orleans ,

At least Big Dog Glenn Robinson hit more of those shots, and averaged 20 and 10. If J-Smoove averaged that, we’d be complaining a lot less….

Meanwhile, Derrick Rose continues to show why you pick the dynamic pg in the draft over the swing player with incredible potential (Michael Beasley). Any questions?

Najeh Davenpoop

February 19th, 2011
12:50 am

“At least Big Dog Glenn Robinson hit more of those shots, and averaged 20 and 10.”

Big Dog averaged 6 boards per game for his career and never broke 7 boards per game in a season. I really hope y’all are not trying to imply that Big Dog was better than Smoove. Aside from his jumper, he was below average at everything else. Probably one of my three least favorite Hawks ever. One really infuriating player to watch, at least while he was in a Hawk uniform.

no mo

February 19th, 2011
6:57 am

another mediocre hawks team, with a bunch of overpaid, worthless players, bad coach, run by a bunch of morons. Sell the team or move it out of town. I’m tired of watching these losers. they’ll go out in round 1, while still collecting millions from the chumps that pay for this “entertainment.”

yodaddy

February 19th, 2011
8:01 am

So to get Ramon Sessions,,,,we would have to give up MO Evans and Jeff Teague???? Man do that deal yesterday

yodaddy

February 19th, 2011
8:19 am

I would accept a trade for Ramon Sessions (if that’s all we can get but anything to get rid of Mo Evans should be seen as a plus).

OR

a lineup change which moves Teague to the starter and Bibby to the bench. Roll The dice

Melvin

February 19th, 2011
9:22 am

Marvin Williams(notes), F, Atlanta Hawks: Two NBA general managers said the Hawks are shopping Williams. Williams, however, has $16.8 million guaranteed through next season and a team option of $8.8 million for the 2012-13 season. – Yahoo Sports

clo

February 19th, 2011
10:05 am

Go for something real. Steve Nash for Bibby, Marvin Williams, and a 2nd rounder. We need a pusher. Jeff Teague will blossom more under Nash and we will finally compete in the second round for a change.

O'Brien

February 19th, 2011
10:07 am

Melvin,

I saw that report too. But according to hoopshype, the 2012-2013 season for Marvin is $7.5 mil, and it’s a player option, not a team option.

If that’s the case, Rick negotiated a contract with Marvin without letting him test the market, and he gives him a 5th year as a player option? SMH

O'Brien

February 19th, 2011
10:10 am

Currently, the Knicks are 5 games behind the Hawks in the loss column, and we have a 5 game road trip, along with a tough home schedule.

If the Knicks gut their team, they will still have a big 3 of Carmelo, Amare, and Chauncey. And depending on which veterans get bought out, NY becomes a very desirable destination.

Assuming we dont make a move, can we hold them off for the 5th spot?

NEW CARS

February 19th, 2011
10:13 am

Where the ball was dropped with this team, ignoring the confused drafts. was the selection of Larry Drew to coach the team. I have nothing against him, but this was a time for a change of culture and a time to bring in a respected coach that could corral the team. We might as well have kept Woodson as to keep his assistant. We needed Batman for the job instead of replacing the Green Hornet with Kato.
Once we made that move, I lost any

O'Brien

February 19th, 2011
10:18 am

Al horford interview on hoopshype.

In which aspects do you feel you’re a better player compared to last year?

AH: “I’m more aggressive offensively. This year’s coach is giving me more freedom to go out and play and that has helped me a lot.”.

Are you happier with Larry Drew than with Mike Woodson?

AH: No, I liked Woodson, you know? It all comes down to my maturation process as a player and being able to fit better with the rest of the team..

How have the Atlanta Hawks changed as a team with this new coach?

AH: Well, I think we’re a little bit more organized as a team. We had more of a free wheeling system. Now we’re more organized..

What’s your take on the point guard position? Seems like the team is searching for help there. Mike Bibby maybe is a little old, Jeff Teague maybe is too young… Is that the team’s weakest spot?

AH: Well, I think Bibby is doing a good job, although it’s clear that in the future we’re going to need another person. We don’t know for how long he’s going to be able to keep it up.”.

http://blogs.hoopshype.com/blogs/sierra/2011/02/18/al-horford-playing-overseas-theres-a-chance/

Despite the more organized system though, we still have a lot of scoring droughts.

O'Brien

February 19th, 2011
10:19 am

BTW, That was me who added the scoring droughts comments. not Al…

Ken Strickland

February 19th, 2011
10:31 am

I think the Hawk(ASG)are looking towards the future rather than the present, with their emphasis being on a new CBA. Therefore, they’re far more interested in using these expiring contracts to lose salary, rather than trading them and adding contracts that extend beyond the current CBA. With all of the uncertainty surrounding a new CBA, and the likelihood of a reduction in both CAPS, reducing their salary committments is their primary focus.

They’ll lose approximately $4.2M from the combined expiring contracts of JCollins, EThomas, JPowell and DWilkins. They’ll also lose another $13.3M from the combined expiring contracts of MEvans($2.5M) and JaCrawford($10.8M), along with the $3.63M trade exception, if they choose not to use it. That’s a reduction of over $21M, which puts the Hawks $21M under the current luxury tax cap and about $9M under the current salary cap.

They know there’s no player that they can acquire at the trade deadline that would get the team into the NBA finals. So, I believe they’ll focus on next season and the new CBA.

Rod Johnson

February 19th, 2011
10:38 am

Simply put…the Hawks organization is a mess. There is not STAR power on this team. They have a bunch of overpriced players that would be getting mid-level pay on any other team. Joe Johnson = $120 Million? Someone on the leadership team lacks the ability to run this organization. We all thought that Belkin was off his rockers, but we have found out that Belkin was right the whole time. #needtogetsmarter

Steven A.

February 19th, 2011
10:42 am

Where is A. I.?
Allen Iverson would be a perfect fit for the Atlanta Hawks right now. It would be much easier to move
Jamal Crawford for any draft pick and available BIG.

Ken Strickland

February 19th, 2011
11:03 am

Here’s a trade proposal that was posted a couple of wks ago that would give the Hawks everything they needed.

GOLDEN STATE would send us C’s ABiedrins/DGadzuric, SG CBell and PG SCurry($23.61M).
We would send them C’s ZPachulia/EThomas, PF JSmith, PG MBibby, and a draft pick($22.37M).
This trade, if we could pull it off, would give us the PG we so desperately need, along with a starting quality(ABiedrins) center and backup(DGadzuric). It would also allow us to retain the expiring contracts and services of JaCrawford, MEvans, JCollins, JPowell and DWilkins, and DGadzuric’s $7.25M contract would also be expiring.

Those remaining expiring contracts would put us about $20M below the current luxury cap, about $9M below the salary cap, and we’d have everything we needed as far as PG, C and PF are concerned. This would address the ASG financial concerns and make the Hawks a true elite title contending team.

Steven A.

February 19th, 2011
11:12 am

Anyone, and I mean ANYONE, suggesting you trade Josh Smith is simply “OUT OF THEIR MINDS”
People in the blog suggesting moving Smith must have been hanging out with Bobby Brown or Willie Nelson. Josh Smith is “quite frankley” the MVP of the Atlanta Hawks. He is their only untradeable
asset.

niremetal

February 19th, 2011
11:27 am

O’B,

The risk with Marvin wasn’t that he’d “test the market” and find a better deal in ‘09. It was that he’d accept the qualifying offer and walk for nothing the next summer. Considering that we were already facing a similar prospect with Chills (and Marvin mighta gone his route too), it would not have been wise for us to have him go out there and “test the market” too much.

We paid him a click or two above the MLE, just a tad bit more than what we reportedly offered Chills. I really, truly do not know why people think the contracts given to him, Zaza, and Bibby are so bad. Centers far worse and far older than Zaza make far more than $4.5M/yr (if you compare per-minute production to salary, Zaza is among the better value backup centers in the league, even as much as he’s fallen off), $7.5M a year is not at all overpriced for a 10/5/good defender on a playoff team, and $6M/yr through the age of 34 is not overpriced for a veteran borderline starter at PG.

Bill

February 19th, 2011
12:15 pm

I believe the Hawks will stand pat. I would trade Crawford if they can get any value back.

My only trade thought was to get Mark Gasol from Memphis for Williams, Crawford, & ZaZa (may have to take someone else to make the salaries work). Gasol is a true big and we can move Al to PF, Josh to 3.

As far as a guard I think we may have to pick up someone who’s contract is up at the end of the year.

The Truth

February 19th, 2011
12:56 pm

The Hawks will never be winners until they can A) succeed in the draft (Horford was anomaly) and B) avoid paying the c-list players like Joe Johnson difference-maker money. Joe’s a solid player, however, he’s not a front-line, marquee player.

The Truth

February 19th, 2011
12:59 pm

Steven A – you’ve lost your mind. Josh Smith is the most overrated player in the NBA. Sure, he can slash to the rim with the best of them, but he never fails to go away from what is working and start heaving up bricks from outside. The kid is a head-case. If someone is willing to take him, I say let him go.

SPUD WEBB

February 19th, 2011
1:17 pm

HOW ABOUT WE TRADE JEFF TEAGUE AND MARVIN WILLIAMS TO WASHINGTON FOR KIRK HINRICH AND CARTIER MARTIN.

O'Brien

February 19th, 2011
1:57 pm

Ken S,

Remember that Horford’s current contract ($5.4 mil) increases to $12 mil, Marvin’s contract goes up from $6.7 mil to $7.5 mil, and JJ, Teague, Josh and ZaZa all get raises next year.

nire,

I was ok with ZaZa’s contract.

I was ok with the $6 mil annual salary given to Bibby. What I didn’t like about his deal is the 3rd year was guaranteed. i think it should have been a team option.

One other team (reportedly) that had interest in Bibby was Philly, and they did not want to give him 3 years (they didnt want to give Andre Miller 3 years either). I would have even preferred to give him an extra $1 mil per year for that option, which is similar to what Andre Miller got from Portland. 3 years, $22 mil, but 3rd year is a team option.

I did not like the Marvin contract at all.

In ‘06-’07, Marvin was injured and only played in 64 games. In ‘08-’09 Marvin was injured, and only played in 61 games. Would he want to take the risk of signing a 1 year QO, when he basically missed 20 games in 2 of his last 3 seasons? I know its a risk, but Marvin would have had more to lose (imo).

Also, one year earlier, Rick allowed Josh (who was much more valuable) to test the market. Why not let marvin test the market as well? And if he decides to sign the QO, they could still try and work out an extension before he hit free agency.

How many teams were going to have the cap space the following year to offer Marvin 5 years, $37.5 mil? And of the teams who had the cap space, how many of them needed a starting SF? We dont know all the answers, but I think Rick was in a position of strength at the bargaining table.

And then to top it off, his 5th year is a player option? I know Marvin is solid, but he plays SF, which is one of the easier positions to fill in the NBA. So at the very least, I think the 5th year should have been a team option.

Obviously, I’m not a GM, so I dont know what topics were discussed in the meetings, but I just think Rick had the better cards at the table, and he played it very conservatively, when he could have done better.

forget the hawks

February 19th, 2011
2:20 pm

until ASG relinquishes ownership, the Hawks are no threat to win any division. Nor are they a threat to
win any playoff series beyond the first. I think the real problems with the Hawks start with ASG and trickle down from there. Face it, the ownership mess is the laughingstock of professional sports in North America.

dirty

February 19th, 2011
2:26 pm

I’ve said it before and I’m gonna say it again. Trade for Devin Harris or Mo Williams, J.R. Smith and Nene or Gortat and Petitrus. Bibby and 1st rnd pick for Mo Williams or Harris, then trade Mo Evans, Williams and 2012 1st rnd pick for J.R. Smith and Nene or Gortat and Petitrus
C- Nene or Gortat
PF – Horford
SF – Smith
SG – Johnson
PG – Mo Williams or Harris
Bench
C- Collins/Zaza
PF – Zaza
SF – Petitrus or J.R. Smith….Pape Sy
SG – Ja.Crawford/Jo.Crawford
PG – Teague

I think this team could beat any team in the East, cause when our starters go out or strugglin you’ll have players on the bench that can step in. hawks don’t develope their picks anyway so why not trade them away. Imagine if last yr we would of traded Teague or Bibby and our 1st rnd pick for Harris or Mo Evans…we wouldn’t be talking about we need a PG

Steven A.

February 19th, 2011
2:47 pm

The Truth—Please go to espn.go.com/NBA/Hawks–see Josh Smith
PPG RPG BLKPG PER
16.7 8.8 1.7 19.28
Plus intangibles, steals, impact plays. No other palyer on the Hawks can effect the game in so
many ways. I accept your apology.

superiorblogman

February 19th, 2011
4:24 pm

Just say No to Sessions. Get Devin Harris or Steve Nash or just stand pat. It’s funny how Sund claims he does not want lateral movement and we here about them going after a former D-League player and maybe giving up 1st round talent. This franchise is lost and Sund is a huge reason why. Say No Sessions.

Rod Johnson

February 19th, 2011
4:27 pm

Josh Smith MVP? WHAT? (in my Steve Austin 3:16 voice) It’s easy to be that on a subpar TEAM!

O'Brien

February 19th, 2011
5:03 pm

From a nytimes.com blog;

Carmelo Anthony is informing those close to him that he will not sign a contract extension if he is traded to the Nets, according to a person aware of Anthony’s preference.

But the Nets are unlikely to agree to trade for Anthony without the assurance that he would sign an extension. On Saturday, a spokeswoman for Mikhail D. Prokhorov, the Nets’ majority owner, said that he had no plans to meet with Anthony while in Los Angeles for the All-Star Game, according to The Associated Press.

“Mikhail has not met with and has no plans to meet with Carmelo Anthony,” the spokeswoman, Ellen Pinchuk, said in the statement..

Either way, I just want the trade to be over so other teams can start wheeling and dealing.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 19th, 2011
6:20 pm

“I really, truly do not know why people think the contracts given to him, Zaza, and Bibby are so bad. ”

My major beef with Marvin’s contract is not that they paid him too much or that he hasn’t improved since signing that deal (which are both true), but that they told Smoove to go get his own deal as a restricted free agent the previous year (resulting in a very palatable contract) and then turned around and bid against themselves while signing Marvin. Why not use the same negotiating tactic with Marvin, when it was so successful with Smoove? If the Hawks could run the risk of Smoove leaving, when Smoove’s value to the Hawks is and has always been significantly than Marvin’s, why couldn’t they run the same risk with Marvin? Worst case scenario would have been that Marvin just signed the QO, and even if that were the case the Hawks would have had a full season to either trade him or negotiate an extension.

And also, there certainly were small forwards signed that offseason (Trevor Ariza, Ron Artest, Matt Barnes) for lower annual salaries who met or exceeded Marvin’s impact and per-minute production, and a creative GM could have found a way to either trade him for a piece or multiple pieces that would improve the team overall. With that said, it’s fair to say Marvin’s annual salary is not that exorbitant; in my opinion, the years on his deal are what really make his contract an albatross, and there’s a good chance that if he had been asked to find his own deal he would have signed for either fewer years or a lower annual salary.

In any case, Marvin’s contract is the most defensible of the three. Marvin hasn’t gotten any worse since signing the deal; Bibby and especially Zaza have. As northcyde likes to point out, Andre Miller signed that offseason for two years and a team option for a third year, while Bibby was given a guaranteed third year. Granted, Miller signed for a higher average salary, but he has produced at a much higher level over the last two years than Bibby despite having some initial problems fitting into Portland’s offense. If bumping Bibby’s annual salary up by $1 million or so would have allowed the Hawks to not guarantee his third year, that would have been a smart thing to do. Again, it’s not so much the annual salary that’s the problem with him as the years. Sund should have seen his decline coming (which presumably he did since he hesitated to guarantee that third year) and accordingly tried to avoid giving him that third year.

Finally we come to Zaza, whose contract is the worst and most untradeable of the three. There are less than 10 big men in the NBA who get regular playing time and have a lower eFG% than Zaza this year. He has gotten worse at the one thing he has ever done well — rebounding — and much of his rebound rate comes from getting his own egregious misses anyway. Jason Collins gets paid a minimum salary and has played better defense and made fewer mistakes than him this year. Only six big men in the league have played over 500 minutes this year and have higher turnover rates. He is 298th in PER, 215th in true shooting percentage, 364th in eFG%, and 202nd in win shares. If you assume that the typical team has an 8 man rotation (meaning that there are about 240 players who play regular minutes), those ranks would imply that Zaza is a fringe rotation player for an average team, let alone a playoff team. Why any GM would feel the need to lock up a player of that caliber for four years at any rate is mind-boggling, let alone at $4.5 million per year. Chris Wilcox signed that summer for $3 million per year over 3 years. Rasho Nesterovic signed for 1/4 of Zaza’s annual salary. Ryan Hollins signed for half that much and only two years. Don’t get me wrong, all three of those players are unquestionably scrubs, but each one meets or exceeds Zaza in every traditional stat per minute and in every advanced stat category and signed for less annual money and fewer years. Zaza’s contract is absolutely indefensible in every way, shape, and form, and quite honestly I’m not sure every 6′11″ D-Leaguer couldn’t come in here at a minimum salary and do what he does.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 19th, 2011
6:22 pm

Really, if you’re not going to play a guy for more than 20 minutes a game, I don’t see why he should get more than a one or two-year deal, especially when you are unwilling to exceed the luxury tax threshold.

Big Ray

February 19th, 2011
7:44 pm

Big Ray

February 19th, 2011
7:50 pm

Big Dog averaged 6 boards per game for his career and never broke 7 boards per game in a season. I really hope y’all are not trying to imply that Big Dog was better than Smoove. Aside from his jumper, he was below average at everything else. Probably one of my three least favorite Hawks ever. One really infuriating player to watch, at least while he was in a Hawk uniform.

You’re right about the rebounds, shoulda done my homework. As for the rest of it, who is “y’all?” I never said or even implied Robinson was better than Smoove. He’s a better shooter/scorer when it comes to a perimeter game, and he’s a career 20 ppg guy. That’s it. I don’t miss the guy, and I don’t feel like he and “Smoove” even played the same position. When I saw Glenn, I saw a SF. When I see Smith, I see a PF.

As for infuriating, I find Smith to be quite a bit infuriating in his own right. This is coming from a long time Smith fan who is not interested in arguing about who the most infuriating Hawks player is in history.

Big Ray

February 19th, 2011
7:55 pm

Najeh ,

Your 6:20 p.m. post was pretty dang strong. Some very good points, and I’d be interested in seeing any intelligent rebuttals to it, especially from any and all who felt the center position was in just fine and dandy shape with Collins/Zaza/Thomas as the backups to a an all-star who already was leaning away from the center position (and this hasn’t even come to a head yet…which I believe it will).

Big Ray

February 19th, 2011
8:12 pm

Stephen A. ,

I agree, Josh can affect the game for the Hawks more than any other player on the team, even the one they handed $120 million to. However, there is a problem with putting the letters “MVP” next to his name. I love Josh’s potential and ability. But MVPs bring it every night. That’s why they’re MVPs. When MVPs play outside of the gameplan, it’s because they are taking over the game in ways that only they are capable of. When Josh plays outside of the gameplan on offense, it’s usually trouble (taking the wrong shot at the wrong time). Then again, sometimes he gets hot from the outside. But that usually happens only when his inside game is on as well.

On defense, it’s another issue. Josh is a guy you have to gameplan for (and often times, you just can’t), because he blocks shots, alters shots, gets into passing lanes and is gone with the steal for a dunk, etc. But AGAIN….this is not an every night thing. Fact is, when Josh plays well, it’s kinda hard for the team to lose (although if the two all-stars are stinking up the joint, it ain’t THAT hard), and when he plays badly, it’s not easy for the team to win.

MVPs bring it EVERY NIGHT, and put the team on their shoulders when things get toughest. Does it sound like I’m being particularly harsh on Josh? It should. Because of all the guys on this squad, he has the most ability to do the most for the team. I want to see him play more consistently, and his stats, while good, are not the whole story. Josh has to give up the constant b!tching to the refs. He has to give up the plays where he isn’t trying very hard to defend, and instead just gets frustrated with his non-defending backcourt teammates (you know which ones I’m talking about). Josh has to lead . He doesn’t do this consistently enough, and that’s frustrating. But man is it freakin’ awesome when he plays good and keeps his head on straight.

My opinion on the whole thing? The Hawks don’t really have an MVP. Because right now, their top three players all have some sort of recurring flaw. Joe sure looked like an MVP right around all-star selection time. The last 4 games, he’s looked like something other than an all-star. I’d say Horford has been the most consistent, but somewhat underwhelming in some games (Detroit, NY, Dallas). Josh? Insane against Washington, awesome against Charlotte and Detroit. Good against Toronto, not good enough against Philly, and downright crappy against New York and L.A. (Clippers).

No MVPs on this team.

Astro Joe

February 19th, 2011
9:05 pm

nire, I don;t read books about basketball. I have literally not read a single one in my life nor expect to do so. It is completely illogical that there is a single design for picking a coaching staff. Woody’s staff included a former teammate (LD) and the brother of his former boss (Herb Brown). I have a feeling that he had a fair amount of input in who worked beside him.

O'Brien

February 19th, 2011
9:11 pm

I wonder if the ASG will add this to their list of accomplishments.

“One of our players was a member of a championship team on all-star weekend, so fans should come out and support the Hawks”

O'Brien

February 19th, 2011
9:26 pm

Najeh,

At the time, I didnt think ZaZa’s deal was that bad. Before signing his new deal, ZaZa averaged 6 pts and 6 rebs in 19 mpg, and I thought he played well during the season.

Nobody knew (or even thought) he would decline the way he has. I dont know how to explain his rapid decline. I think part of it is due to a decline in minutes (he has averaged only 14 mpg since). But did Rick think ZaZa would continue to get 19 mpg?

However, one thing that drove up his price was there was a rumor that another team (Milwaukee maybe) was interested (if I’m not mistaken). And i think Rick may have overpaid to make sure ZaZa stayed with the Hawks.

And maybe his headbutt/staredown of KG in the playoffs earned him some extra money :smile:

I’m with you on the Marvin deal though. Dude had missed 21 games that season, and 18 games 2 seasons prior, but yet we basically give him a 5 year contract. Oh by the way, he has already missed 17 games this season.

He was coming off 3 solid seasons when he signed his deal, but a good GM has to look at other factors (similar players and their salary, potential injury history, if their role on the team will change, salary cap flexibility going forward etc). And Rick was very narrow minded in his negotiation with Marvin (imo).

Hawks Fans Thrashers Fans Need Your Help

February 19th, 2011
9:35 pm

Hawks Fans: The creators of the website “Keep the Thrashers in Atlanta” are also life-long Hawks fans – we were there when Larry and ‘Nique battled in the old Boston Garden. We need your help.

We know many of you could care-less about hockey, but you do care about Atlanta and our “Major League” status, having teams in the NHL, MLB, NBA, and NHL. Can you please go to the page below and help in some way – “liking us” on facebook is easy and much appreciated:

http://www.keepthethrashers.com/

If you can pass the link on to others, it would be great.

For those who are too young: ‘Nique and Larry Bird battled in one of the best game 7’s in NBA history in the Boston Garden. Wilkins had 47 points on that fateful night, shooting 19-23 from the field. Bird had 34, 20 of which came in the deciding quarter, when Wilkins and Bird traded basket after basket. The Hawks lost 118-116, but it was one of the greatest games any of us will ever see in any sport. We know Hawks fans will help Thrashers fans – thanks in advance!

Najeh Davenpoop

February 19th, 2011
9:44 pm

“a good GM has to look at other factors (similar players and their salary, potential injury history, if their role on the team will change, salary cap flexibility going forward etc”

Exactly. It’s easy for us to say we didn’t see Zaza’s decline coming or whatever, but that’s why Sund gets paid to be the GM and we don’t.

As far as Zaza potentially leaving, it’s not like he’s some irreplaceable player where the Hawks couldn’t have compensated if he left. I mean, Sund was able to go out and acquire Jamal as an upgrade to Flip when Flip’s contract expired. It wouldn’t have been that hard to find an affordable backup big man who could give the Hawks what Zaza provided.

As out of touch as Sund is, I really wouldn’t be surprised if he signed Zaza long term because he was more or less a “fan favorite”, thanks in part to that confrontation with KG.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 19th, 2011
9:54 pm

I should also add that the impact of the nearly $20 million annually to those three wouldn’t be nearly as bad if the Hawks were willing to go over the luxury tax. Teams that don’t mind going over the tax level can afford to overpay players, like the Magic acquiring Gilbert Arenas. Teams like the Hawks who have three players that command eight-figure annual salaries (totaling over $40 million next year) and still want to stay under the $70 million tax threshold cannot afford to blow that much money on people who will not perform up to their salary level. Even if hypothetically $7 million is reasonable for an average SF and $6 million is reasonable for an aging, declining PG, the Hawks are not in the position to be paying out that kind of money if the luxury tax is a consideration. Essentially the Hawks have to be more like the Devil Rays in baseball, where most of their role players have to outperform their contracts if they want to contend. A below-tax contender needs to be stocked with productive players on rookie contracts and bargain veterans who outperform their deals, as opposed to players who were paid properly based on their contract-year production and then subsequently regressed.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 19th, 2011
9:54 pm

And that only makes it an even more egregious error that the Hawks have done such a poor job getting production out of their draft picks. In any professional sport, draft picks are the single most consistent source of cheap labor there is.

Ken Strickland

February 19th, 2011
10:23 pm

STEVEN A-I love JSmoove as well as his energy, but we are in desperate need of a quality PG. He has very high trade value and is the only player we have that can be replaced by a 2 time All Star(AHorford).
As talented as Smoove is, he can’t overcome the major issues we have at PG. Can you honestly tell me a starting lineup without JSmith and featuring C-ABiedrins, PF-AHorford, SF-MWilliams, SG-JJ and PG SCurry, wouldnt be better, both offensively and defensively, than our current starting lineup with Josh?

OBRIEN-after all of our current expiring contracts have expired, and all escalating contracts have kicked in, we’ll be at around $64M. With the trade I proposed earlier, we would be picking up DGadzuric’s $7.25M expiring contract, which would actually reduce that $64M dollar figure and put us below the current 58M salary cap. It would be a win win for us as far as getting what we need talent wise and financially. Of course, it all means nothing if you can’t convince the other team to agree to the trade, which is something many of our trade happy fans seem to either forget, or just don’t comprehend.

O'Brien

February 19th, 2011
10:41 pm

Najeh,

The bad thing is the Hawks may have to take one step back before they can take 2 steps forward. Because as constructed, they will be stuck in the same rut (imo).

I’m impressed by the Dunks these guys are doing…

Ken Strickland

February 19th, 2011
10:42 pm

Well ladies and gentlemen, the trade deadline is almost upon us, and CAnthony will have to either S–t or get off the pot. It also looks like DHarris will be unavailable since he’ll likely be included in any trade for Melo that involves the Nets. I think the Hawks would consider getting involved in a trade if it difn’t involve our expiring contracts.

O'Brien

February 19th, 2011
10:44 pm

So many rumors out there. Now they are saying the Nets did meet with Melo this evening. From espn.com;

The long-awaited meeting between Carmelo Anthony and the New Jersey Nets took place late Saturday afternoon at a Los Angeles-area restaurant, according to a league source.

The Nets owner, Russian billionaire Mikhail Prokhorov, and minority owner Jay-Z informed Anthony of the club’s short-term and long-term vision — the certainty of their move to Brooklyn for the start of the 2012-13 season, as well as their plans to build a championship-caliber team around him, largely through free agency..

D.S.G.B.

February 20th, 2011
12:32 am

k… here it goes. tade mike bibby, jamal crawford, and marvin williams, if necessary, to philly, and get jrue holiday, and iguadala. picture this… jrue, jj, iguadala, smith, and horford. eastern conference champs! better believe it!!!!!!!!! im drooling thinking about it

D.S.G.B.

February 20th, 2011
12:35 am

this would solve all of our alleged problems. we aquire a quick penetrating pg, and we get perimeter defense, just to name a couple.

Big Ray

February 20th, 2011
2:23 am

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2011-02-18/joe-johnson-sees-no-need-for-hawks-to-make-trade

LOS ANGELES — We’re less than a week from the trading deadline, a time of year when rumored deals are nothing new. One team that has been the subject of much speculation has been the Hawks, especially because they’ve been oddly inconsistent this year — suffering some embarrassing blowout losses, allowing a historic comeback to the Bobcats and yet still on pace to win 50 games.

And then there’s Atlanta’s fate in the last two postseasons, when the Hawks were able to sneak into the second round with wins in seven-game opening series (beating Miami in 2009 and Milwaukee in 2010), only to get swept in the second round.

The Atlanta Hawks have been long-rumored to be a team intent on making a deal. Joe Johnson tells Sean Deveney the Hawks must play better with what they have.
The Hawks could look for big-time change by trading sixth man Jamal Crawford or star forward Josh Smith, but both of those players are almost guaranteed to stay put. More likely, sources say, the Hawks will target an upgrade at point guard, with players like Cleveland’s Ramon Sessions and Houston’s Aaron Brooks on the radar. Of course, if the Suns were to put Steve Nash on the market, the Hawks would leap, but that won’t happen until the summer, if at all.

All-Star two-guard Joe Johnson, though, isn’t sure any such move is needed, especially not after the Hawks made an offseason coaching change, going from Mike Woodson to former assistant Larry Drew. “I think we have made some changes already, whether it’s changing some players here and there, or the coaching change,” Johnson told Sporting News. “We are out of excuses and we have to just step up to the plate and make a play.”

In addition to adding Drew, who has altered the team’s offense to make it less reliant on Johnson, there is the hope that simply having gone through the playoff grind the last three seasons will have the Hawks more prepared, should they reach the second round and play a team like Boston or Miami. “I think experience definitely helps, because we have been through adversity the last two years,” Johnson said. “I think now is the time for us to really take that next step up. Like I said, we have run out of excuses.”

Big Ray

February 20th, 2011
2:27 am

Interesting thoughts from Joe.

Those who might think less of JJ are liable to say that he has over 120 million reasons to not care about whether or not a trade is made. But that would be churlish, no?

On the other hand, I’d have to ask Joe, “But…aren’t you tired of guarding pgs?”

Just sayin’….

Big Ray

February 20th, 2011
2:31 am

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Al7dtdb6LDRyqhghYv1Apse8vLYF?slug=mc-afterthebuzzer021811

Marvin Williams(notes), F, Atlanta Hawks: Two NBA general managers said the Hawks are shopping Williams. Williams, however, has $16.8 million guaranteed through next season and a team option of $8.8 million for the 2012-13 season.

Sure makes Najeh’s argument look pretty strong. Not sure what/who we’d trade Marvin for, anway. Funny thing is, I’m not sure how many teams would see as much potential in him. His recent injury history and the fact that he’s in his sixth year doesn’t raise his value, I’m guessing. Not saying trade him one way or the other…that’s for the “don’t say anything bad about Marvin” police…

Big Ray

February 20th, 2011
2:35 am

D.S.G.B. ,

Philly would be nuts to mortgage their future like that. Take their best and most versatile player (Iggy), and their likely pg of the future (Jrue)?

By the way, that trade does nothing to fix the growing problem of “Al don’t wanna play center against bigger guys anymore.” Just sayin’….

Big Ray

February 20th, 2011
2:41 am

O’brien ,

I think you have hit on the truth about Zaza. His production has gone with his minutes. But….

1) It doesn’t explain why he’s gone from 48.8% on field goals last year to 42.4% this year. Dude played the same amount of minutes last year as this year.

2) We have to immediately ask the question of WHY Zaza’s minutes have gone down. Is it due to lineup changes? Or is it because the Hawks finally had something in hand that Zaza has never really been able to provide? That something THIS season, has turned out to be an in-game-shape Jason Collins. When the Hawks go big these days (Horford at PF), they don’t go with Zaza. They go with Twin. Hmmmm.

Big Ray

February 20th, 2011
2:43 am

Lisa Dillman: Quiet on the Clipper front. In other words, don’t send a car to the airport to pick up Marvin Williams. Not happening. Twitter

Eh? Don’t even know what the rumor was about on that one (other than trading Marvin to the Clippers for….somebody. Got that off Hoopshype, just like the others.

Ain’t nothing happening until this “Melodrama” foolishness is over.

‘Melo is full of it. He knows he’s enjoying this after watching the ridiculousness that went on this past summer. He just wants his piece of being in high demand.

Big Ray

February 20th, 2011
2:45 am

Lisa Dillman: Quiet on the Clipper front. In other words, don’t send a car to the airport to pick up Marvin Williams. Not happening. Twitter

Don’t even know what that one was about, or who we allegedly were trying to get in exchange for Marvin. Another hoopshype rumor. Heh…

In the meantime, I figure the ‘Melodrama gets into the realm of truth sometime tomorrow or Monday morning. Until then…

Rufus1

February 20th, 2011
3:21 am

Najeh Cosign on all your points about Bibby, Marvin and Zaza…

Theses players are not overpaid, they are just to expensive for the Hawks….

Kyle Korver got 5mil a year just as a 3pt specialist…So we pay Bibby only 1mil more for his PG skills and he is just as good a shooter.

I love the analogy about the Tampa Bay Rays, I thought was the best point ever made about ASG, tha salary cap and this team. Their performance needs to exceed what we are paying them, for the Hawks to be great.

Rufus1

February 20th, 2011
3:33 am

Untapped Potenial

I think this teams untapped potenial can only be reached with an uptempo, drive and dish PG. A players as unimpressive as Ramon Sessions would make this team far better than many people think.

Example DRose…
He is the main reason why the Bulls are as good they are. His ability to get to the basket ceates open shots, off reb and easy layups.

SWAP…Swap Bibby for DRose and the Bulls might be a .500 team. They don’t have as many skilled players as the Hawks, so without Rose’s penetration, how would they get easy baskets….they would be just like the Hawks, excepts without as many good shooters.

THIBS…As good as THIBS maybe as a defensive coach, no one can hide Bibby.

We don’t need a great PG, we need a good penetrating PG who can dish and finish at the rim. That is all we need to be an Elite title contending team…..Oh, and for Josh to go back to being the defensive player he was last year and for Marvin Williams to come off the bench.

tbhawksfan

February 20th, 2011
5:20 am

Devin Harris and maybe Daly could be available. Daly is expiring. Make a playoff push, get a long term PG solution and decide if Daly’s worth holding on to.

JC / Teague and a pick could get it done.

Is Sund even in the boat..

O'Brien

February 20th, 2011
9:28 am

Big Ray,

True. And because of his contract, zaza is basically untradeable (unless we take back someone’s garbage contract )

dap01

February 20th, 2011
10:18 am

I bet Sund sleeps late today and Monday and really does not consider helping the Hawks.

He likes our core. How can you rock the boat when you are asleep at the wheel?

cdog

February 20th, 2011
10:55 am

IF SUND DOESN’T ROCK THE BOAT, HE SHOULD BE THROWN OFF THE SHIP.HE’S TERRIBLE AS A GM. THATS WHY THE HAWKS ARE BELOW THE CELTICS, HEAT, BULLS AND MAJIC IN THE EAST BECAUSE OF HIS STUPIDITY.

niremetal

February 20th, 2011
11:27 am

Najeh,

Synergy says that less than 10% of Zaza’s rebounds come off his own misses, so pretty big fail there. I’m not gonna bother to respond to the rest of your post on him because it’s frankly not worth it. You are to Zaza what Ken is to Bibby, and there’s really no point.

doc

February 20th, 2011
11:42 am

heh heh @ big ray. the glove has been thrown.

to get rid of zaza at this point ad find a legit replacement or begin to accept his frailty as a big time center in the NBA is maybe to suggest in his case it is more than CFTSOC. as far as the last item, we need to change to get better as we are 6 deep at best with two of those in terrible slumps. it hasnt surprised me about bibby but i expected less inconsistency from jamal this year and it has hurt the team tremendously. we needed more thought going into the season. zaza and mo are pretty much fried right now. mo has to be considered a sg only not a tweener. between aging, size and of course his knee problem that came to the surface only as camp started, he just doesnt have much gas in the tank. even last year i suggested he was at best a 11th man coming of the bench for any primetime team instead of imposter. this year not so much as that, no impact whatsoever, except for spacing purposes.

somehow as a hawk fan, i still have the desire to maybe be surprised with a late season move to suggest someone is awake at the wheel. hope is unceasing. maybe the word to describe mo is apropos to this team overall, imposter.

doc

February 20th, 2011
1:03 pm

AJ agree, woody’s staff looked pretty good ole boy network stuff in initial composition,

O'Brien

February 20th, 2011
1:36 pm

I think Al and Joe are right. This team has no excuses. They are not young anymore, and they should have LD’s system down by now.

If the Hawks play more consistent, and play well, and still lose, then at least they can say they gave it their best. After that, the onus will be on Rick and the ASG.

As it is right now, we dont know (for sure) what their best is.

Melvin

February 20th, 2011
1:37 pm

Horford confirmed again he’s better playing against PF…

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=18834

Ken Strickland

February 20th, 2011
1:48 pm

My concerns about RSession or KBrooks, assuming we acquire either of them, would be LDrew’s attitude if we acquired one of them. Would he continue to start Bibby, but reduce his mins and use Sessions as his backup? Or, would he start him immediately and then bench him if he struggled and didn’t do much more than Bibby while trying to adjust and learn everything and everyone?

LDrew has definitely established the fact that unless Bibby is out performed by a very wide margin, he’ll remain the Hawks starting PG no matter how much it hurts the team.

niremetal

February 20th, 2011
1:51 pm

Horford played like shite the few times we’ve put him against All-Star caliber PFs. That’s why for the most part we’ve only played him at PF against teams with mediocre PFs or against teams’ second units.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 20th, 2011
2:41 pm

“Synergy says that less than 10% of Zaza’s rebounds come off his own misses, so pretty big fail there. I’m not gonna bother to respond to the rest of your post on him because it’s frankly not worth it. You are to Zaza what Ken is to Bibby, and there’s really no point.”

And you are to Rick Sund, apparently, what “It was not a bad pick” is to Marvin. It’s all good. I wish we could poll NBA GMs to see how many of them would be willing to trade for any of those players. That would settle it once and for all.

O'Brien

February 20th, 2011
2:52 pm

Melvin,

Al and Tito keep talking about this banging from other centers, but there really isnt that many big (Centers) bangers in the league anymore. I am fine with Al playing 18 minutes at PF (Josh can handle the other 30 minutes at PF), and 18 minutes at Center depending on the matchups.

However, we need one center capable of playing the other 30 mpg. I dont have confidence inTwin and ZaZa combined that they can handle 30 mpg consistently. The problem is I have no idea how to get that Center.

If we move Al to PF full time, I do think we should trade Josh to find a center, instead of playing Al at PF and Josh at SF.

Ken S,

Even if we were to trade for Sessions, I think Bibby should remain the starter and get his 24 mpg, and bring Sessions off the bench for 24 mpg. If Bibby is clearly struggling in the first, then LD can reduce his minutes.

Najeh,

The poll would be “how many GMs thought those contracts were good contracts at the time”

coach phil

February 20th, 2011
5:58 pm

The hawks need bench help down low. real big men not bargains for the league miinimum.

Ken Strickland

February 20th, 2011
6:13 pm

I think this idea of Horford taking a pounding is being overstated. Last yr, Woodson relied heavily on the switching DEF to try and hide MBibby’s and JCrawford’s DEF liabilities, and he usually spent most of his time out front switching off and defending against PG’s. Although we’ve relied less on the switching DEF this yr to hide their DEF liabilities, we’ve certainly used a lot more zone DEF. LDrew, like his predessor, really believes in using bandaides to cover the teams open wounds, especially when it comes to dealing with our PG issues.

I’m all for getting Sessions or Brooks, but wouldn’t it be ironic if we end up trading for basically what we might already have? The difference between Teague and the other 2 might turn out to be the difference between being given support, a chance to work through and learn from ones mistakes, and an honest chance to show what one can do, as apposed to being subjected to the WOODY TREATMENT.

niremetal

February 20th, 2011
7:03 pm

Trust me, I don’t reflexively defend Sund. If the Hawks don’t make a significant trade by the deadline (by which I mean one that brings in a new starter), I won’t a nice word to say about that.

Wally Walker

February 20th, 2011
7:13 pm

I agree with most that Sessions is not the long term answer, but something is better than nothing. It would be great if Cleveland really would take Bibby and a 2nd round pick. JC2 is not an option! ? If the Clippers are interested in Marvin then why wouldn’t Sund offer ZaZa(4.4mil) or better Bibby(6mil ending after next season) to a deal and go after Kaman. His contract ends next season and the salaries work. LAC gets Marvin and a replacement big man and the Hawks get a Center.
Finally, Nash or Harris are the only real PGs who can move a team to contender status. Again, there’s point to lose Jamal and get nothing in return. With Jamal, Mo (13.3 mil in expiring contracts) and a #1 pick, The simply have to make run for one; either could potentially give the Hawks what they need to contend for ECF and maybe more!

O'Brien

February 20th, 2011
9:04 pm

kobe looks like he is trying to win AS game MVP in the first quarter.

It would be nice to see Al and JJ have good games

doc

February 20th, 2011
9:06 pm

big ray here it is, a big no to change right now…

“The next two months and our performance in the playoffs will indicate as to exactly what this team is. The challenge is up to them.”

And this: “We’ve put ourselves in position to do something, so let’s see where it goes. We have to do it collectively and with chemistry and coaching and all that.”

I think he just said: “Bob Pettit is not walking through that door.”

AJ, durn it seems my first choice got dumped. at least he was in the list of candidates. heh heh

O'Brien

February 20th, 2011
9:12 pm

Al should have told Doc Rivers he wants to play PF…

doc

February 20th, 2011
9:21 pm

nire, i was wondering instead of composing a reading list for AJ of how to run and NBA franchise maybe you could work one up pronto and send it to sund and gearon jr. and co. they still look like they are clueless when it comes to running a winning franchise. ;-)

O'Brien

February 20th, 2011
10:16 pm

doc,

The irony is regular fans like us have simple ideas that probably would have helped, but the ASG (and their PR firm and marketing firm) seems like they have no clue sometimes.

But yet Gearon and the ASG is quick to point the finger at the fans for not supporting the team more.

doc

February 20th, 2011
11:06 pm

yes o’b, they are NEVER it as in the problem. never have they suggested they made a mistake in anything.

niremetal

February 20th, 2011
11:17 pm

But yet Gearon and the ASG is quick to point the finger at the fans for not supporting the team more.

Where?

doc

February 21st, 2011
12:36 am

nire though not necessarily what o’b may be referring to, i gave you the link for his view on his disappointment of fans not buying into the product earlier in the week but you were too tired to listen.

doc

February 21st, 2011
1:11 am

man the nba is such a dirty business. stern is so sullied and one more time shows how only the rich get richer, why and it is rigged unless you are good enough to play like the spurs do. they are kind of like the twins if they could just win once again a world series crown.

Steven A.

February 21st, 2011
1:11 am

ken Strickland—-S. Curry is not a natual pg. He plays horrible defense. Bierdens cannot shoot free throws. He is a liability in late game situations. Marvin is still Marvin, low basketball IQ. He does absolutely nothing great.

doc

February 21st, 2011
1:12 am

doc

February 21st, 2011
1:13 am

curry is not the answer to our point guard issues. portland’s milller was but we blinked once again and looked the other way.

Ken Strickland

February 21st, 2011
2:44 am

STEVEN A-I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but MBibby doesn’t play a lick of DEF, or very little OFF, and he’s better than Bibby in virtually every respect, whether he’s a natural PG or not. At least SCurry can:
1-score consistently and in volume,
2-score in a variety of ways,
3-penetrate,
4-generate more than 3.6APG,
5-increase the tempo of the gm, rather than restrict it,
6-play DEF well enough not to require gimmick DEF’s, zones, or JJ to defend his man.

As far as ABiedrins poor FT shooting is concerned, have you checked Bibby’s FT % lately? If Biedrins and Curry create the OFF/DEF improvement they are capable of creating, we won’t have to worry nearly as much about winning or losing gms on late gm FT’s from Biedrins. Besides, why make an issue of Curry’s DEF, yet when it comes to acquiring SNash, there have been absolutely no comments whatsoever about his awful DEF or his advanced age?

The biggest question for me is about what action Sund and the ASG will take in regard to LDrew’s Woodson like approach to coaching the Hawks, and bone headed reliance on Bibby, especially if it leads to a 1st round elimination. Will they allow him to finish the remaining yr of his contract, or realize their mistake and send him packing?

O'Brien

February 21st, 2011
6:59 am

nire,

I dont have the exact quote, but as doc said, Gearon talked about fans needing to come out and support the team (which I agree with). But the way they go about implies that fans are part of the problem, and not the ownership group.

Jeff Schultz has a new blog up. And Rick Sund actually makes an appearance (and he will travel with the team on the 5 game road trip). And of course, he puts all the onus on the players.

Sund: “The next two months and our performance in the playoffs will indicate as to exactly what this team is. The challenge is up to them.”

Sund again: “I think our players feel like they can play with anybody. It’s the first time in the last two years I’ve sensed that.”.

http://blogs.ajc.com/jeff-schultz-blog/2011/02/20/hawks-sund-puts-onus-on-players-challenge-is-up-to-them/?cxntfid=blogs_jeff_schultz_blog/

O'Brien

February 21st, 2011
7:03 am

One thing I did not know…As a team, the Hawks have the second-fewest steals (5.9) and are forcing the second-fewest turnovers (12.7) per game.

UGASlobberknocker

February 21st, 2011
8:23 am

I hope Sund blows this team up. IMO Horford is the only one who you can count on for 100% effort every game. I would start by getting rid of Coach Drew who is obviously over matched. I would keep Horford and Josh (who still needs a good coach to make him a complete and consistent player)..the rest of them we can do without. Johnson is nowhere near a max contract type player.Trade him for picks if nothing else. Bibby is over the hill. Marvin is a wasted talent. Zaza seems to have slipped. Overall.. DAMN! I thought this team would be much better than it has turned out to be. I hope I am wrong but I predict an early first round exit . As Barkley sings..I may be wrong..but I doubt it.

Hawks Fan In New Orleans

February 21st, 2011
10:03 am

Thanks for those stats Obrien. As a team we now have a offensive identity (motion offense) but defensively there is an identity crisis going on. Not quite sure what the significance of Sund traveling with the team is but we shall see.

In no way am I saying that Glenn Robinson is better than Smoove. Bu It fear him jacking up 3’s and long range shots as his primary offensive apparatus. Maybe a penetrating floor general is all he needs to avert this trend.

Astro Joe

February 21st, 2011
10:11 am

doc, I’ve read/heard Petit’s name come up 3 times in about 5 days. Strange, very, very strange.

4 days of lies, speculation and rumors await us. Kind of like the last few days of a presidential election.

doc

February 21st, 2011
10:45 am

i just wish the announcer for once would simply say josh smith instead of j smoove.

AJ, last championship for the hawks, petit was their big, sad to say ?1957. the next year they lost to the celts and a dynasty was born. sadly, i became a fan of the hawks the year of 57 instead of waiting to become a fan of the celts a year later. 53 years of waiting for another championship only outdone by the kings.

RambleOn84

February 21st, 2011
10:50 am

With the Cavaliers looking so pathetic, couldn’t we swing a trade to get Varejao from them? He is a very good defender, good rebounder, and a high-energy guy who would give a lot of effort.

Also, we could move Horford to his more natural PF position.

Astro Joe

February 21st, 2011
10:57 am

doc, the champagne will taste sweeter for you than most once we win the trophy.

It appears that Melo is a beaver dam stopping other player movement from happening. If the Cavs are the team that will help facilitate the deal between the Nets and Nuggets, then Sessions may not be traded until the Melo-Drama concludes.

Meanwhile, Schultz acts like Sund said something significant in his comments about “it’s up to the players”. He pretty much said that when he blew out Woody and kept the core intact. I mean, he clearly isn’t going to say “I have done little to create a more balanced roster and I am to be held accountable for the plateau this team has reached”. So if not the GM and the head coach is new, then clearly the season’s success rests with the players, specifically Marvin and Bibby appear to have the bulk of the burden (strange, considering their relative role on the team).

Astro Joe

February 21st, 2011
10:59 am

RambleOn84, I’m pretty sure Varejao is out (due to injury) for the remainder of the season. If healthy, he would be a great add for the Hawks (and many other teams).

O'Brien

February 21st, 2011
12:26 pm

It is similar to what JJ said. No excuses.

I do think some of the onus is also on LD. His biggest claim to fame was the motion offense, which “the league has never seen anything like it” (or something like that). But yet, in crunch time, we still get jumper happy, still run too many ISOs, and still struggle to score.

And LD has not done enough offensively or defensively (imo) to instill enough of a change.

O'Brien

February 21st, 2011
12:48 pm

O'Brien

February 21st, 2011
12:59 pm

One thing I disagreed with in the si article, was that the defense is solid. Overall though, I thought they raised some valid points.

Atlanta has managed this against what has been the easiest schedule in the league by a wide margin. That is going to change, immediately. Its remaining opponents have a combined winning percentage of about .550, giving Atlanta by far the hardest schedule among Eastern Conference teams.

Only four teams get to the line less often, per shot attempt, and the Hawks’ offensive rebounding — once a key strength — has vanished.

They still isolate too much, and they fare poorly when they do; only six teams score fewer points per possession on isolation plays, according to the stat-tracking service Synergy Sports.

They still don’t use Al Horford enough, and they still take far too many long two-point jumpers; only the Wizards, Heat and Bulls attempt more, according to Hoopdata. Atlanta is an efficient transition team, but it continues to play at one of the slowest paces in the league..

One reason offensive rebounds has decreased is because we need to get back to play transition defense. But I didnt know we play at one of the slowest paces in the league (despite having Al and Josh who can run with the best of them).

Astro Joe

February 21st, 2011
1:36 pm

OB, I said it a few weeks ago and I stand by it, this season feels very much like a grind. Maybe it has something to do with the pace, maybe the injuries, maybe the learning curve associated with a new coach and schemes. All I know is that this team has had very few games when it all seemed easy, despite the favorable schedule. I sincerely hope that they were able to reenergize during the All-Star break as I personally have little hope that they will find a new teammate to help them in the stretch run at the end of the week.

O'Brien

February 21st, 2011
2:34 pm

AJ,

It has been a grind. Last year, I felt like we had more blowout games (in our favor) where our bench guys got lots of PT. This season, even against bad teams, sometimes we will play only 1 good quarter (most of the time, I think thats the 3rd or 4th), so the games have been closer than they should be.

Maybe its just a case of the Hawks playing down to their competition.

I think LD is very frustrated with the players (even if he doesnt say it out loud). He says the same thing after some of these losses, and it just seems like he doesnt know what to do to get through to them

Astro Joe

February 21st, 2011
3:00 pm

OB, I think that he is finding that the Uncle Larry role one seat down is very different than the Daddy role in the big chair. He may have thought the view was much more similar than the reality. I don’t find much fault in his on-court choices (although not employing the motion offense extensively in the 4th quarter still confuses me), but it is the non Xs & Os part that he seems (justifiably) to be in a steep learning curve. In lieu of busting up the core, a significant culture change was needed. I fear that neither will happen for the remainder of this season.

Melvin

February 21st, 2011
3:51 pm

LOL… even the Clippers don’t want Marvin contract…

“@Rev in Tampa: you mean Marvin to the Clippers? the LA people think that’s a non-starter” – MC

Najeh Davenpoop

February 21st, 2011
5:52 pm

Not surprising at all that teams continue to shy away from taking on Marvin’s deal. The sad thing is that his isn’t even one of the three least tradeable contracts on this roster.

Ken Strickland

February 21st, 2011
5:59 pm

Tell me if you think the following trade proposal will satisify our need for a PG and the ASG’s need to save money.

The Hawks send MBibby(($5.56M), JCrawford($10.8M) and ZPachulia($4.25M) to the GS Warriors.
The Warriors send SCurry($2.94M), ABiedrins($9M) and DGadzuric($7.2M) to the Hawks. The Hawks will use the $3.63 trade exception to absorb SCurry’s $2.91M salary. As it stands, if the Hawks make no changes to their roster, and once all remaining salaries have escalated, the ASG will be committed to paying out $63,606,550M in salaries after all expiring contracts have been dropped.

We subtract the combined escalated value of Bibby and Zaza’s traded salaries($10,967,617M) and subtract this total from next yr committed salaries($63,606,550)and get $52, 638,933M. Then we add back the combined salaries of ABiedrins and SCurry, ($10,360,870M), which we acquired in the trade, to our adjusted salary figure($52,638,933M), and end up with a total salary committment next yr of $62, 999,803M after this trade, which is a $606,747 reduction. I didn’t include Gadzuric’s salary because his is an expiring contract.

In this trade, we end up with the PG and C we covet, and the ASG actually ends up slightly better off financially. WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Ken Strickland

February 21st, 2011
6:10 pm

From what I’ve read, if Melo is trade goes through with the Knicks, the Nuggets are said to have no intention of keeping PG RFelton, and the same is said to the true for PG DHarris if the Nets are Melo’s destination. If fact, it was stated that even if Melo is traded to the Knicks, the Nets will try to acquire some of the players the Nuggets will receive in that trade, which they feel could still make either PG available, if not both.

Big Ray

February 21st, 2011
6:56 pm

I think Ken should commission Clyde to make him a “Fire Bibby” t-shirt. Then, he could wear it every day of the week in lieu of plaguing us with his anti-Bibby posts every day of the week. Hell, I’ll even pay for it, as well as a matching set of “Fire Bibby” shorts.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Najeh Davenpoop

February 21st, 2011
7:58 pm

“The Hawks send MBibby(($5.56M), JCrawford($10.8M) and ZPachulia($4.25M) to the GS Warriors.
The Warriors send SCurry($2.94M), ABiedrins($9M) and DGadzuric($7.2M) to the Hawks. ”

Great trade for the Hawks. Too bad you’d be hard pressed to find a team in the Euroleague, let alone the NBA, willing to take on the rest of Zaza’s contract. The Hawks are pretty much stuck with him unless they dump him on a team with cap space and give them a draft pick for their trouble.

Astro Joe

February 21st, 2011
9:19 pm

SpearsNBAYahoo Marc J. Spears
Melo is close to being dealt to Knicks, possibly tonight, a source tells Y! Sports.

Melvin

February 21st, 2011
9:21 pm

Man, I wish the Hawks could acquire Harris, Felton or Hinrich. Seems like all three are available….

O'Brien

February 21st, 2011
9:23 pm

One thing I like about this time of the season, is all the rumors.

From espn.com;

After the name of Cleveland’s Anthony Parker surfaced Friday as a player that Boston has joined conference rival Chicago in pursuing, sources said Monday that the Celtics and Rockets have likewise discussed the prospect of Battier moving East. .

One thing I dont like about this time of year is most of the rumored deals dont get done.

O'Brien

February 21st, 2011
9:27 pm

Melvin,

If Bibby was given a 2 year deal (instead of 3 years), then its possible we might have been able to do a sign and trade with Charlotte for Felton.

Charlotte would have had Bibby for 1 year as a security blanket for DJ, and then his contract would come off the books (or they could trade him at the deadline). And we would have Felton, who signed for roughly $8 mil per year.

What I find interesting is even a young PG like Felton only got a 2 year deal, but yet we gave 3 years to an old and aging Bibby.

The Hawks could have drafted Felton in ‘05 if they wanted. he went 5th, and we drafted Marvin 2nd…

Astro Joe

February 21st, 2011
9:41 pm

OB, if the 3rd year of Bibby’scontract were a deal breaker, would you have walked away? I wonder how much money we would have had to sign a different PG back then? You always have to remember that there was an agent on the opposite side of the table from Sund… for all we know, Bibby’s agent may have come in asking for a 4-year contract.

Ken Strickland

February 21st, 2011
9:47 pm

NAJEH-The Warriors are currently paying $9M to their 2nd string backup center(ABiedrins), and $7.24M to their 3 string backup center(DGadzuric). So with that in mind, why would it be so hard to believe they would be willing to pay Zaza’s modest, by comparison, $4.75M contract? Also, if we traded him for a player with a simular salary, and the team had a need for a backup center, salary cap wouldn’t be an issue for either team.

Ken Strickland

February 21st, 2011
10:00 pm

MELVIN-There’s no way for the Hawks to acquire either Felton and Harris directly, because their teams would need them as key elements in any trade would make. If we have any chance of trading for either it would be with the team that acquired them in a trade, and the Hawks would have to have everything already in place with that team for a trade to get it done by the trade deadline.

O'Brien

February 21st, 2011
10:05 pm

AJ,

The only money we had to sign a FA PG was the mid-level exception (~$5 mil or so). But…In the summer of ‘09…

25 year old Jarrett jack was available, and he signed for 4 years $20 mil deal. He averaged 13 points and 5 assists his contract year.

22 year old Ramon Sessions was available, and he signed for 4 years, $16 mil. he averaged 12 points and 6 assists his contract year.

31 year old Mike Bibby was available, and we offered him 3 years, $18 mil. he averaged 15 points and 5 assists.

32 year old Andre Miller was available, and he got 3 years, $21 mil (only 2 years and $14 mil guaranteed). he averaged 16 pts and 7 assists.

Obviously Andre Miller was out of our price range, but who was going to give Bibby that 3rd year guaranteed? And if the 3rd year was a problem, then offer him more money per year (for example 3 years, $21 mil like Andre Miller), so he makes $2 mil extra the first 2 years, with a team option for $7 mil the last year.

And Rick had to know that the CBA would expire this offseason, probably resulting in lower salaries, lower salary cap space etc. Having Bibby’s contract off the books would have been up to Rick…

O'Brien

February 21st, 2011
10:32 pm

Melo deal is finally done.

and the Knicks have no depth.

Melvin

February 21st, 2011
10:37 pm

ESPN is reporting that Melo is a Knick. I think the trade wont be official until tomorrow when the NBA office re-opens…

The four team above the Hawks and the team behind the Hawks have made major addition to their teams since this summer. Now what is Sund and ASG going to do?

Najeh Davenpoop

February 22nd, 2011
12:11 am

“The Warriors are currently paying $9M to their 2nd string backup center(ABiedrins), and $7.24M to their 3 string backup center(DGadzuric). So with that in mind, why would it be so hard to believe they would be willing to pay Zaza’s modest, by comparison, $4.75M contract?”

Because they would have learned from their mistake. The Warriors have been trying to move Gadzuric since the day he got there.