Hawks leave home, hope for some positive continuity

Things can’t be all that good for your team when they feel like they might have to leave home to get back on track.  Every team, even the true contenders, go through bad spells. If you don’t believe it, just read NBA.com and every other site that pays any attention to NBA basketball. Why watch soap operas when you can just keep up with what’s going on with the Lakers? It’s just another reality show. But with the Hawks, it just feels different. How do you lose a home game to a team with a worse record by 34 points, then follow it up with another loss at home by losing a 22 point lead? 

Denial is an ugly thing 

Josh Smith talks about a chance to bond. Honestly? How much more bonding can you do before you realize that some parts simply don’t fit the way you need them to? This team doesn’t need to bond. They don’t need to gel. They don’t need to find an identity. They don’t need a shock either, or any other cliche. What they need is an operation. A transplant. Something that wasn’t there before, but is needed. The problem is, you have to first accept that you’re missing something, or that whatever you had has gone bad. Then, you have to act on this knowledge. Does management know that something is flat out wrong? Is the front office willing to accept that idea? Most fans are tired of hearing “we’re keeping an ear out and an eye open for any deals that may come along.”

You know what? That sounds like you’re doing something else, but you’ll try and take notice if an opportunity to improve the team happens to come along. Gee, there must be a lot of people in need of suing, or something…..

 

What’s the worst that could happen?

Maybe management should have asked that question once it was decided that Mike Woodson wouldn’t be the coach of the team anymore, and the “search” for a “new” one was on. Maybe management did ask that question when deciding to promote Larry Drew, instead of trying for someone from outside the organization. Maybe I have the question wrong. Maybe it should have been “what’s the best that can happen?”

Of course, asking such questions would insinuate that Larry Drew is part of the problem, rather than part of the solution, right? Well, that depends on your perspective. Drew brought forth the idea of the motion offense, yet the team continues to have inexplicable collapses in the second half of games. Drew preached accountability on defense, yet the Hawks succumb to penetration from the perimeter on a regular basis. Drew said this, Drew said that. Now he is doing things that seem in direct contrast with what he said before the season began, and making phantom tinkerings with the lineup. Yeah, the Hawks could have and maybe should have hired a guy from the outside to coac this team. But how much difference would it have made? Maybe no more than changing a dirty oil filter on a car that really needs a few engine parts replaced.

 

A pointed issue

There is a good deal of unrest about the point guard situation for Atlanta. Sports writers will typically bring up the 2005 draft when broaching the subject, but the past is indeed the past. The Hawks can’t get better defense out of Mike Bibby or Jamal Crawford, and they are easy targets when either is not shooting well. The obvious solution to some is 2nd year point guard Jeff Teague. But what has Teague done that makes him a solution to an ongoing problem? Perhaps that question need not be asked, and we find ourselves back with another one – “what’s the worst that could happen?” Maybe Drew sees this sooner rather than later, and decides to play the guy. Why? Because by now, the point is not longer about whether or not Jeff Teague is the solution for the Hawks, in the areas where Bibby and Crawford fail. The point is that the Hawks need to know what they have in Teague, and whether or not he can be developed into something they can use. If not, then he’s trade bait. In addition, the Hawks must get to where they are no longer relying on a super-sub shooting guard to be their savior when their top scorer is off his game, or when their starting point guard can’t get it done. I mean seriously, relying on a streaky scorer who can’t defend, to save you when your back is against the wall? Who’s idea was that?

Up Next

Two games east, five games west. This could get really ugly for the Hawks, or we could be left shaking our heads and wondering how a team this good can be this bad at time, as they roll to a winning total on their road trip.

Well, it all starts in Detroit. Talk about bad memories, when the Hawks last played there (December 14th) they lost by 23 points. Of course, Joe Johnson was out with injury, but that wasn’t all. Atlanta got ripped by Detroit’s bench, beaten like a drum on the glass, and had an epic fourth quarter collapse. Fact is, the Hawks only played one winning quarter out of that whole game. Now, with Joe back in the fold, can they get revenge and start this trip off right?

 

 

By Big Ray, Hawks Fan Nest Blog

343 comments Add your comment

doc

February 13th, 2011
10:57 pm

1 and 6 on the road trip.

doc

February 13th, 2011
10:58 pm

nailed it legitimately, read the article wrote the comment to stay FIRST.

JSS

February 13th, 2011
11:02 pm

Well put Big Ray… This team has either collapsed in the 2nd half as you poignantly examined; or had massive meltdowns to begin games in some bizarre instances. I just scratch my head now. We were promised that this team as constituted would not be allowed to do such thing anymore… So as you noted, where is the organizational, coaching, and more importantly locker room accountability?

doc

February 13th, 2011
11:05 pm

me i am happy as the team played beyond expectations to now except i thought they might have gotten the system down now and be getting stronger rather than being beaten by a team gelling and another that cant beat its 48 yr old owner. i thought 44 to 48 and for a while thought they might exceed. not anymore. no it wasnt woody nor could he have been expected to take em higher. good we saved 3 mil so we could go out and acquire help in the post over the summer when we went cheap on drew. oh, you say we didnt work to get anyone and signed sy, etan and collins instead of aggressively pursuing shaq or someone of similar bulk and experience? my my, good businessmen this askg group.

steve brown

February 13th, 2011
11:28 pm

What’s the downside? We know this team has no chance of winning a championship. Take a risk, do something before we all are bored to death. The highlight factory, what a pathetic marketing campaign. J Smooth, what a joke of a nickname. Is there anyone with a pulse in the front office. Someone help, I watched pro bowling on ESPN today! I need help now.

beone

February 14th, 2011
12:22 am

If Hawks mgt & owners don’t see that the fans are fed up and will only be happy with a trade (and not a small one) then there is no hope whatsoever because they have decided to ignore reason. They are delusional at a majestic level and incapable of believing they have made (a) mistake(s). Hence, nothing will be done and nothing will change. AND IF NOTHING CHANGES, THE FAN BASE WILL DECREASE BY THOUSANDS AND DECLINES IN ATTENDANCE WILL FOLLOW!!! If they think attendance is bad now, then just wait – if they don’t change this team in a hurry.

E43

February 14th, 2011
1:05 am

beone- what fanbase? the people that come to watch the hawks are the main real fans. Even if they were atop the eastern conference people still wouldn’t come to watch. The fans issue has to do with marketing and prices. coz there are many teams with nothing(Cleveland) that have a better home percentage in attendance than the hawks.

JSS

February 14th, 2011
1:06 am

The downside is a recurrence of 2002-2003! Blow it up that way again and Kansas City will have a team! Still, some of the AJC bloggers would love that so they can talk GA and Falcons stinkball 24/7!

vava74

February 14th, 2011
5:58 am

http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20110212&game=CHAATL

The lead evaporated when Collins left the floor in the 3rd quarter (to not return).

He brings defensive cohesion. Defends his man well and rotates showing his hands to penetrators on pick n’ roll plays.

Ray

February 14th, 2011
6:56 am

It’s been to long since I last seen a hawks game which tells you how disappointed I am.

At this point the hawks are like the family dog that you know it needs to be put down, but you can’t bring yourself to be the one to do it.

I know thing that will save us from the hawks is an NBA Lockout and then you couple that with NFL yeah I know it will suck, but at least you got Soccer or Baseball.

O'Brien

February 14th, 2011
7:23 am

Last year, I think players tuned Woody out. And I’m starting to wonder if they are starting to tune LD out already.

He talks about taking more 3 pointers than FTs, and says “we cant be doing that”. Except we have done that in 37 out of 53 games.

He says we can’t settle for jump shots down the stretch. Except we do it all the time. We have lost 20 games this season. In 10 of those games, we have scored less than 20 points in the fourth quarter, with one of the biggest reasons being we settled for jump shots.

And Josh Smith talks about bonding? This team has had the same starting lineup for parts of 4 different seasons. And most of the players have been together for years. But Josh talks about bonding? Really Josh?

Sometimes I wonder if the team realizes there is a problem, or if they just shrug their shoulders and figure that they will get it right the next game.

O'Brien

February 14th, 2011
7:52 am

Speaking of Josh, would anybody try a big lineup of Collins/Horford/Marvin/JJ/Bibby?

And then bring Josh off the bench like the Lakers do Lamar Odom. That way, he will play most of his minutes at backup PF (when Al goes to the bench or goes to Center) and a few minutes at backup SF.

Josh would strengthen our bench, and will help defensively when he is on the floor with Jamal. Plus it doesnt matter who starts, right? It’s all about who finishes.

Speaking of finishing, a discussion from the other blog is one lineup LD needs to go away from is the Bibby/Jamal/JJ down the stretch (unless Bibby and Jamal are both playing well).

Because when one of them is off, thats too much of a defensive liability, and not enough offense (if one of them has been cold the entire game).

Just a couple tinkers LD can keep in mind.

O'Brien

February 14th, 2011
7:55 am

Some other options are: LD can give Jordan some minutes at backup PG (especially when Jamal is struggling).

He could even try a lineup of Al/Josh/JJ/Mo Evans/Bibby. I’m not sure what good that would do, but it could be a change for the sake of change :smile:

STRETCH

February 14th, 2011
8:10 am

They should do pretty darn good on this trip. The environment shouldnt be a factor cause the crowd factor would be similar to that in Atlanta!

Willie Coyote

February 14th, 2011
8:21 am

I’m sure with the blown leads there’ll be the standard “it’s the NBA…these things happen” excuse. The problem with that excuse (other than it’s an excuse) is that the Hawks always give up 20+ point leads. It is an oddity when they actually hold on to a big lead. It is the norm for them to completely blow it and have to scramble at the end to try to pull the game out.

Changes need to be made. I will agree with Sund’s approach when he says he’s not in to lateral moves. You don’t make a trade just to do it. If you pull the trigger on a move then it needs to make you either immediately better, or position you to be significantly better in a year or two for the long term. If that is not available, then…

E43

February 14th, 2011
8:32 am

They actually do need to bond. I don’t think josh smiths statement about bonding had to do with the past years. Its more about now with all these lineup changes.

E43

February 14th, 2011
8:37 am

obrien- jamal crawford historically plays better on the road. This season hes at .380 home and about .450 on the road.

N.D.T.K.A.

February 14th, 2011
8:53 am

Interesting that it now seems that the most important factor for the Hawks is coaching and management moves. This comes into play more than what the actual players are or are not doing on the court. The player can only go on the floor and perform what is asked.

It is the coach and GM’s job to implement a system for winning and evaluate the talent on the court. Hence, when looking at the Hawks everyone including bloggers, fans, analysts, and sports reporters realized before the season JC1 and Bibby will not and cannot play effective defense. Also everyone realized Joe Johnson, with the max contract, is not the leader of this team.

So, why trade Josh or Marvin or Teague? They maybe tradeable assets (young talent not living up to their potential in one way or another) but to move forward in a a positive direction Drew and Sund have to find away to get rid of veterans making a lot of money but ruining the culture of your team.

If the Hawks are a team get rid of Bibby and Jamal Crawford they are veterans and set the stage for the rest of the team. You cannot trade Joe with that contract so cut bait with JC1 and get rid of Bibby as an expiring contract for next year if possible.

Josh is trying to be leader but does not know how and is way too emotional. Marvin will never live up to his draft position but is decent and still has potential to get better. How can Teague get better without playing any minutes?

The key is Josh, Marvin, and Teague will never get better being held back by lousy veterans with bad habits and a coach and GM who do not or cannot develop their talent and put that talent in a position to win.

Hey, this all sounds like the same thing we were talking about this past summer before the season!!!

The answer is get a good coach and GM!!

vava74

February 14th, 2011
9:21 am

OB,

“…more 3 pointers than FTs, and says “we cant be doing that”. Except we have done that in 37 out of 53 games.”

That’s a bad stat, however, we must also take into consideration that our ball movement has improved significantly and that we do launch a lot of uncontested jumpers, including 3 pointers.

So I would take that stat into consideration but would not consider it critical.

A simple explanation for that stat is that we have the starting PG in the league that gets LESS to the line and I bet that he is surpassed in that category by at least 50% of the PG reserves (including 3rd stringers).

Ray

February 14th, 2011
9:23 am

You know listening to most of you it seems we all have the right answers, but in a way we’re all wrong.

I’ll admit giving Joe(Big Money contract) Johnson all that money was the worse move ever in the history of all sports. You’re paying someone who is actually a 2nd-3rd option on the celtics, lakers, or spurs 1st option money. We all see that.

We always talk about Marvin williams and even though he’s a bust for the most part it’s only in the terms of his draft status cause we know in any other team not named Cleveland, Wizards, Timberwolves, Clippers, Kings, Rockets, or Pistons he wouldn’t be starting he’d be at best the 6th option off the bench.

We say trade everyone for Blake Griffin which means we would only be in the same position as the clippers and they’ll be better. We say LD needs to back up his words whenever he makes a threat. We even say the GM and owners need to do something about this.

In all honesty I feel like this year it’s more both players and fans faults, but for the fans it’s more indirectly(not showing up) when there are no behinds in the seats it can take a toll on a team. Plus being booed off your home-court I think it happened twice this year. Yeah it could make even the toughest man in the room shed a tear you know.

Maybe that could also explain Josh Smith I think he wants to be the hometown hero to the fans, and for his basketball team. He wants to be the guy that once his career is over felt like he gave ATL all that he could. That’s only a possibility that I’ll expand on after my college class.

Mr Mojo

February 14th, 2011
9:30 am

time to put the blame wherre it belongs its all on the owners and GM. They need to make something happen and improve this team either they are to dumb to or to cheap either way I hate ASG. Trading Josh smith is not the answer you people are just looking for an escape goat you trade josh you have no interior defense and no shot at Dwight Howard in 2012.

Big Daddy

February 14th, 2011
9:52 am

Good post Big Ray. I can tell the frustration in what you write and it has been ecohed many times on the different beat writers blogs. So, why doesn’t the front office do something? Everybody else sees what we see and I can’t help but believe there is little they are willing to trade for as a need for their time.

The guard play is killing us. This season, Mike’s game is on a steep decline. He does have his moments and occaisionally does hit very timely 3 pt shots. However, this is extremely spotty and as everyone has pointed out, he is a defensive liability. Joe has been up and down since coming back from surgery and mostly down. Here is a guy with THE max contract and scores 30+ points in one game and then the next 3 games scores in single digits. Jamaal is a streaky shooter and poor defender so when his shots are not falling, which has been a lot lately, he sticks out. Plus, sometimes it seems his defense consist of turning around and telling Josh or Al, here he comes.

What really stands out to me as on the nights when they are not playing and I watch other teams. The good teams, when they are not shooting well still play tough defense. That keeps them in the game and, I suspect, keeps their belief that they will be able to come back and maybe win. Our guys do not do that. I saw them last year come back several times and win games. I am not seeing that this year. The defense has always got to be stout in order for them to be able to make that run.

I can only hope that in the next few days some deal is made. There are a number of backups who have been suplanted by rookies or trades who we can get in to do a better job than what we have now. GO HAWKS!!!! (sigh)

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
9:54 am

In the past two summers, Sund has brought in Teague, Collins, Etan, Powell, JC2 and Sy. Collins has been narrowly effective, the others, not yet (how’s that for Monday morning optimism). I’ll give him credit for Damien (although that should have been done in August and not November). 6 virtually empty roster spots filled by this GM. While it won’t keep us from being good it will surely keep us from being better. One wonders which of those two things is the end goal.

O'Brien

February 14th, 2011
9:55 am

As for LD and his tinkering and possible lineup changes, does anyone take him seriously (players, fans, media, front office)? Just reading his quotes, he sounds like a politician who doesnt want to commit to anything either way, so he leaves a lot of wiggle room in there.

From ajc.com;

Drew also said he’s still contemplating permanent changes to the starting lineup, a subject he first broached following the loss to Philadelphia.

“Let’s just see if we can regroup for these last two games before the break,” he said. “If we can’t and I still don’t like what I see then, I will look at possibly making some kind of change to possibly shake things up a little bit.”.

Huh? So if the Hawks play well and win the next 2 games, does that mean he wont bother with any timkering, because all is well? And even if the Hawks lose, as long as he likes what he sees then he wont bother with any changes?

C’mon Man. Even if the Hawks play well these next 2 games, their history suggests its only a matter of time before they struggle to score in the fourth, or give up a big lead and lose, or possibly get blown out.

O'Brien

February 14th, 2011
10:00 am

E43

They actually do need to bond. I don’t think josh smiths statement about bonding had to do with the past years. Its more about now with all these lineup changes..

The lineup changes have been minor, because we still have the same top 8 players from last year. The biggest difference is sometimes Collins starts over Marvin. And we are 50 something games in the season, so everybody should be well adjusted by now (imo).

vava,

I agree that the stat don’t tell the whole story. But even if the shots are open, we are not making them in crunch time consistently. So at some point, we need to go into the post.

But you’re right. Its hard to do that when only Jamal can consistently create off the dribble, and your starting PG hangs out by the 3 pt line.

doc

February 14th, 2011
10:28 am

ob, LD maybe a bit of a narcissist or of the mindset he is more in control than he may be. ever notice it is about him getting guys shots, putting guys where they need to be, etc, instead of it is the players when it is good and the coaches when it isnt so good? man where is the, “we just need to rebound and defend better”?

nire, can you start giving us similar comparisons for jamal and jj between last year and this year, or is it a given that the impression that both have deteriorated significantly that you dont need to bother? i still see a whole lot of uncontested jump shots missed by those guys.

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
10:50 am

LD maybe a bit of a narcissist

You mean like the description of his offense that is unlike anything run in the NBA? The same offense that is delivering fewer points/game than last year and as many 4th quarter scoring outages? About 115 regular season games to go before we give either Ty Hill of Bob Bender their shot at the big chair.

kwooden

February 14th, 2011
10:59 am

Big R, great post! My problem is we’re a Playoff team that the League knows how to beat. (That’s why we get no respect from the Media!) I think we’re tough enough to make it out of the 1st round, but you can have such obvious issues and make it past the 2nd. Am I missing something or do we not know what Teague can do! We know what Maynor, Collison and Douglas can do, but what about Jeff. Bibby will have nothing in the tank come Playoff time if LD keeps playing him 25+ minutes a game! Is that clear to LD!! You can win or lose with Bibby, but you don’t know if you can win with Jeff. If there’s not going to be a trade made, then that is the only move that can make any significant difference. Without that move this team could easily get ousted in the 1st round, or at best get abused in the 2nd. The top side with Teague is the EOF, the bottom is out in the 1st. 1st or Finals, either way you would know what you have.

Because of that, I’m not really concerned with this road trip. This team has shown that they can get the ship righted and make it to the Playoffs. I think that they will go 3-4 or 4-3 on this trip and get some good play out of Jamal especially. My issue again is we’re to predictable on the defensive side, with no answers. We can switch or go zone, and neither is very effective. Jeff clearly isn’t the guy in LD’s mind, so we have to make a move. I would like to see what Jeff can do, but baring injury I don’t think Jeff’s going to see a lot of time. (Doesn’t make any sense!)

GO HAWKS!

Fundamentals

February 14th, 2011
11:10 am

Bonding? How about getting real with us, for once. We needed/need something more than what we’ve got. We don’t have right starting personnell, much less the right role players. Here’s my Monday morning optimism:

Collins – needs more minutes if you expect him not to foul out? Dude needs rotational minutes to keep him crisp. He’s shown value, use him and he’ll give you what he can.

Al – Needs to go the bucket, needs to be “Boss” on D. Dude’s getting soft. I love his game, but he’s different in his new deal.

Josh – Also needs to go to the bucket. Consistency and Mental Maturity still hamper his game.

Joe – Seemed to be rounding into 1st tier form, till he dissappeared with Marvin when we needed him most of late. We need leadership Joe, not a desire to stay under the radar. You took the money, now show us the leadership? We need it desperately!

Bibby is almost done for the year. Dude is starting to hobble, shot is gone. If we could rest him till the playoffs, he might come back like he did early this year, but who can replace him till then?

Teague – seems to enjoy his bench role, b/c he’s not showing any fire or any determination to take the slot. He must be reading AC’s diary at night.

Marvin – back to his old dissappearing self. He’ll never fit in, deal with it. If he’s such a great pick, capitalize on the value NOW.

Mo – Obviously not the same after surgery…not that I saw his “great” defense before, but in his defense he was at SF and not SG then.

Damien – needs to get into full game shape, needs to take the open shot, needs to show that 1st game passion on D like he did against Lebron. He’s just happy to be here.

Jamal – Obviously making up for those awesome games a month or so ago. STREAKY w/ No D to boot.

ZaZa – a little energy of late, but far from the early days. Dude isn’t focussed on basketball. It’s a job, not a passion.

Powell – couldn’t prove his value on D or the boards. Seems to have potential, but he seems to be in the doghouse? What happened to the championship work ethic, experience, leadership? Dude’s drawing a paycheck.

JC2 – Must be reading the diaries of AC Law, Royal Ivey, Teague, Salim, ect just to cope with no chance of fitting in?

Sy – can’t even command 1st tier attention in the D-League.

Oh yeah, Etan – maybe he can write a pregame poem? Where’s the beef, the biceps, the brawn? So far we’ve gotten nothing from him?

LD/ASG/SUND – NO ACCOUNTABILITY TO MAKE THIS TEAM GREAT. We’re one and done people. The team is flawed by it’s own leadership. They don’t seem to care enough to hold kids accountable. They’ll be happy with 50 wins and an early exit b/c we got home court…if we get home court.

Chris E

February 14th, 2011
11:12 am

We have to have the most pessimistic fans in the NBA. The Hawks definitely have problems but we can’t have it both ways. Coach Drew’s offense works and it is still just his 1st year as coach, the Hawks are a half game out of the 4th seed and not far away from the 3rd seed. That means they have played solid ball even though the media and fan base have slayed them long ago. I wish you naysayers or couch potato coaches shut up and show more patience and support.

My biggest complaint with this season has been lack of fan support, Drew not playin Teague enough and not sticking with Twin in the starting lineup. We definitely need better consistent defense from the pg position but I don’t see a trade happening, so that will have to be addressed next year.

For now, start Collins, bring Marvin off the bench, get Teague more involved and get that bench rotation tight. All is not lost and they have enough pieces to be dangerous. Drew just has to clearly define eveyones roles. This will bring about more success at the end of games.

For all the negative talk, the starters have performed very well as a unit minus Marvin consistently. The leads are usually lost when the bench enters the game. There is no continuity in the rotation!!! That to me is their biggest challenge moving forward.

Fundamentals

February 14th, 2011
11:25 am

Chris E?

We do have a decent starting unit, but they don’t stay foccussed, they don’t run LD’s offense and they don’t play together. Maybe that’s what Josh meant when he talked of needing to bond. They can’t expect to win playing selfish, jumpshot offense and no D. It’s an accountability issue.

Problem with accountability is our role players don’t hold their role. They are as inconsistent as their leaders. They don’t give us reliable back-ups.

I’ve been here for a long time, I love this team. I’ll watch every minute of every game, but it doesn’t mean I have to voice undying support of lackluster efforts and selfish play.

I’m pissed b/c they don’t come close to potential and they just don’t seem to care. Continuity? Maybe after 8-10 years with essentially the same team-mates we can claim they’ve had enough time. Sure there’s a few new faces, but they’re not playing. They’ve essentially had years for continuity to develop. BS, Chris E, BS!

Fundamentals

February 14th, 2011
11:29 am

If we address the need for defense and better play at PG we’ll be seeing next year sooner than later. Teague has to show some fire, some determination, some real die hard effort on D. He needs to command the ball to initiate the offense. He has to lead. Right now he’s happy watching either Jamal bring the ball up. This is the NBA, dude just isn’t measuring up. I don’t mean that in talent. I mean in terms of him showing us his inner puppy.

Ray

February 14th, 2011
11:29 am

The thing about Jeff Teague that’s annoying me is he gets no chances it seems everytime I watch the game it seems like every little mistake he makes he gets all the blame, but if the starters make mistakes well it was just a bad possession or something on that line which is sad.

Free Horford/Jordan Crawford/ Jeff Teague Now drew I want to see what the two rooks can really do.

Fundamentals

February 14th, 2011
11:35 am

Ray – That’s all LD’s excuse to yank him. Dude has to play with tenacity, determination and fire. He has the skills, he just won’t use it. Maybe we should show him tapes of Spud’s first years? I remember him all bandaged up from a Kevin Willis elbow. Dude was fighting for his life. He played like it and thus played a valuable role for that team.

Jordan needs to focus on defense, not shooting every opportunity he gets the ball.

Both get yanked because they rise to the energy level and tenacity our starters set forth. Basically following their lead. Both needs to see every chance to play as a job interview.

Teague needs to show us his passion. I think he’d rather be a teacher than an NBA starting point guard. He’s just too reserved and quiet.

E43

February 14th, 2011
11:47 am

obrien- That may be so but having 8 guys returning doesn’t mean that they’ll just magically match up and gel every-time LD can think of a lineup. minor= inserting a 2 at the 2 1 at the 1 etc coz on a fast-break your assignments remain the same. This is a situation where the whole rotation is messed with and that’s without the injuries. Imagine if we had to play Dwight and our C and PF had to change positions 4 times in 4 games. Orlando would clearly have an advantage.

Rufus1

February 14th, 2011
11:49 am

LD’s Scapegoats…

Bibby and Jamal allow the Philly back court(Meek, Holliday and Williams) to score 51 points… And they score total of 11pts…
Solution= Bench Marvin and Teague DNP.

Result…
Back-up PG(Livingston)22pts season high… He keep the Bobcats in the game, so Jackson could hit the winning shot**(6′8 Jackson scored the last 4pts for Charlotte over 6′4 Jamal and 6′5 Mo, while 6′9 Marvin road the bench).** Bibby and Jamal had a total of 13pts…

17mil worth of veterans were outscored 73 to 22 over the last 2 games by 4 players making a total of 11mil(Journeyman, 2nd year player and two 2nd rounders)…WOW!

For those who think Teague is a waste….Jrue Holliday(Drafted 17th, Teague Drafted 19th) is a perfect example of what a young PG can start to become, WHEN YOU COMMIT TO DEVELOPING ONE!!!

This isn’t rocket science…You fix the flat tire 1st.

Trojan

February 14th, 2011
11:52 am

The team has good players but the team is so poorly constructed.

We have the minimum for a back up center. We have a starting pg that would not start with any other team in the NBA.

We have good players but we are severely deficient at two positions.

Trojan

February 14th, 2011
11:54 am

Great post Rufus

Chris E

February 14th, 2011
11:55 am

Fundamentals?

You must agree that Phillips looks like a Girls high school basketball crowd at the start. Even my wife comments on that when she watches. That has to sap your energy at times and then the consitant barrage from the media and fans of negativity can’t help.

I totally disagree about the effort. They give good effort, its just hard to sustain when the bench gives up so much. To me even with mistakes Teague has to play but more importantly the bench has to run the motion offense effectively. And in my opinion, JC1 is not equipped to do that. I watch other teams and their 2nd unit seems to always be in more control than ours.

If Drew needs to do anything, its concentrate on the 2nd unit running plays and being crisp offensively. Yes Teague needs much more aggression, but more importantly they need to coach him up on how to be that change of pace for the Hawks.

With Teague, Marvin and JC1 that’s plenty of scoring options off the bench and it will enable them to keep some leads and momentum for the starters. It will also allow Bibby and JJ the rest they need to be crisp at the end of games.

This is the time to figure these things out so come playoff time they will be ready to perform better in the clutch.

O'Brien

February 14th, 2011
12:11 pm

Chris E,

Good teams have to be able to win even if they dont have any fan support. But that has been one of the problems with the Hawks during Woody’s tenure. They would lose a Tuesday night game to Washington because the arena is empty, there is no energy and no vibe.

Why is it that the Hawks are playing better on the road this year? They dont have many fans on the road, but they find a way to win. Thats what they need to do at home.

IMO, the Hawks make the wrong excuses, or just shrug it off.

Chris E

February 14th, 2011
12:14 pm

The 2nd unit should be Teague, Crawford, Damien/MO, Marvin/Powell and ZaZa. With Powell and Mo playing situationally. The Hawks already mix and match well, so its not like you them all in together a great deal but you have something there that you can work with. If more effort is given to this unit executing the offense better and within the motion system then it will keep the 1st unit sharper.

This will also bring the team closer together. That will form the bond they are looking for and the trust they will need in one another. Drew has to trust in his system and impose his will on the whole team to play within it.

niremetal

February 14th, 2011
12:15 pm

Doc,

Heh…it actually takes me a little while to compile the stats just for Josh because I have to go in and look at the individual shot chart for each quarter of the game before doing any of the arithmetic. I’m doing Josh rather JJ/Jamal because the distribution of Josh’s shots has changed significantly from last year – he’s taking significantly more jumpers generally and 3s in particular. Last year, Jamal shot 82% jumpers compared to 85% this year, and JJ shot 79% jumpers compared to 80% this year (and JJ’s percentage has been falling for the past month).

By comparison, 36% of Josh’s shots last year were jumpers compared to 60% this year. Thus, the question of whether Josh’s jumpshooting has improved takes on significant added importance. Since I only really have time to do one, it makes the most sense to focus on Josh.

Rufus1

February 14th, 2011
12:25 pm

The real difference…

The only real difference between the Hawks and the other top teams in the east is the PG. our defensive liability at the PG is so great, that it effects the entire team. 2 thru 6 we are on par with any team in the east.

The MYTH is that we need a great defensive PG, we don’t….. We need an average defensive PG to give the Hawks better defensive balance.(like Mario Chalmers) He simply stays infront if his man….Is that too much to ask of your starting PG.

Chris E

February 14th, 2011
12:33 pm

O’Brien,

They are ready for no support on the road, but at home its different. Think about the last 2 years in particular. After the during the Celtics series and the 2 years afterwards the fans were an X Factor!!! No one can deny that. During the Orlando series and afterwards the team has taken a hit by the fans and continue to be a joke to the media. That takes a toll on anybody after a while.

When they expend the energy they have on the road, its a let down when they are not rewarded with big crowds at home and as reported even crowds at home where the visiting team had just as many fans than the Hawks( ex. Knicks game)!!!

That’s no excuse they still have to overcome this but it is a reality. The Hawks need some good PR work and mental toughness. That has to be ingrained in them by their Management and Coaching staff. I will remain a diehard fan and hope that ASG will figure it out. But that being said, there aren’t many teams in the NBA that can dominate the Hawks and with the right adjustments as a few have suggested in the media they are a dangerous team!!!

As we just saw a few weeks ago when the Hawks are playing within the system JJ is deadly and Josh & Al are becoming quite consistent. With Twin in, it clogs the lane better to help Bibby and frees up Al to score more. They rebound better and to me are much more formidable as a team.

niremetal

February 14th, 2011
12:35 pm

Now that I looked, it’s interesting to compare other top shooting guards this season:

Crawford is shooting 85% jumpers with an eFG% of .488.
Ray Allen is shooting 81% jumpers with an eFG% of (!!!) .595.
Kevin Martin is shooting 81% jumpers with an eFG% of .481.
Kobe Bryant is shooting 81% jumpers with an eFG% of .463.
JJ is shooting 80% jumpers (82games says 82%, but it hasn’t done its biweekly update yet) with an eFG% of .429 (since the New Year, though, the eFG% is much higher – .474, by my math).
Monta Ellis is shooting 74% jumpers with an eFG% of .462.
Manu Ginobili is shooting 71% jumpers with an eFG% of .508.
Eric Gordon is shooting 70% jumpers with an eFG% of .456.
Dwyane Wade is shooting 58% jumpers with an eFG% of .427.

Last year, by comparison, JJ shot 79% jumpers with an eFG% of .482 – very close to his stats since New Year’s.

N.D.T.K.A.

February 14th, 2011
12:38 pm

Amen Rufus,

You get payed (Drew and Sund) to coach and make the needed adjustments to put a winner on the floor. To see what we have with Teague play him and not just for sporadic minutes. Tell Jamal, JJ, and Josh that Teague is your pg give him the ball and let him make the call and start the offense, period. Tell Josh and Al to place a$$ in the post and stay off of the perimeter. Tell JC1 to attempt to play defense or sit on the bench. Give Damien or Mo his minutes. It’s called coaching!!

Consistency by the team not up and down play (blowing out a good team one night and two days later getting blown out by a bottom feeder)is the reason fan support is still weak. Beating a playoff team on the road and then letting a lottery team blow you out at home. Quitting, like they did in the playoffs last year is the reason for the attendance problem. Attendance problems can be placed on the man in the mirror when it comes to the Hawks. If the players don’t give a da%, why do you think the fans will, sometimes it’s not if you lose it’s how you lose! Alot of people in Atlanta look for the Hawks to lay an egg and expect them to implode by or during the playoffs.

“Consistency” and discipline will bring fans.

O'Brien

February 14th, 2011
12:43 pm

While LD complains about players in their comfort zone, this was in the ajc story on June 18, 2010 when LD was hired.

For six seasons Hawks players have known Larry Drew as peacemaker, confidant and positive buffer to Mike Woodson’s often-fiery bench demeanor.

That’s one reason they were glad to see Drew promoted last week from Woodson’s assistant to his successor as head coach.

“When everybody had problems on the court, we used to go to him for advice,” Hawks forward Josh Smith said. “I think that’s a plus for him.”

Hawks management agreed, citing Drew’s familiarity with the players as a major factor in the decision to hire him..

And now LD thinks players are too comfortable. Really? Considering you were their confidant for 6 years, why wouldnt they be comfortable?

westurd

February 14th, 2011
1:02 pm

Just got word ASG is recalling and refunding all season tickets due to the shotty product they continue to release.

Rufus1

February 14th, 2011
1:03 pm

Hope…

IMO hope is the main reason the attendance is down from last year. No one thinks we have any chance to Making to the finals with Bibby as our starter. Management and the coaching staff have the responsibility to give their fans HOPE…

That is why the NFL is so successful, most teams start the year thinking they have a chance.

With Bibby as our starter, even the “Die Hard” fans don’t believe we will make it out of the 1st round, so why would a casual fan spend money on a HOPELESS product.

Analogy…

If I intended to take a trip from ATL to CALI, but had to choose between a flat tire(Bibby) or the “donut”(Teague or JC2). I would choose the “donut”. Even thought I may still end my trip on the side of the road.
…ATLEAST THE “DONUT” GIVES ME HOPE THAT I COULD MAKE IT!!!!!

Guesswhosthis

February 14th, 2011
1:12 pm

This team needs a trade badly. They have too many players that don’t compete at a professional level. This team only thinks about offense and when their shot is off, they get blown out. A guy I would really love to have at point guard is George Hill from San Antonio. That guy doesn’t back down from nobody and plays hard on both ends of the floor. Also, I believe it’s time for the Hawks to part ways with Josh Smith. That guy is too talented and let’s that get to his head. He only plays hard against the good teams or against star players but doesn’t give the same effort against lesser opponents. We need to let him go and just stick with Al Horford. Mike Bibby also needs to go because he’s just too unproductive for the amount of minutes he’s on the floor. He gives up way too much than he actually contributes to the team. If you keep him, he needs to come off the bench for spot minutes and just hit a few 3s while he’s in. Jamaal Crawford is also hurting this team because of his lack of defense. Sure I’ve seen this guy win games for us with his scoring but how much games do we win because of that. Now compare that with how many games we lose because guards are penetrating and making our defense look like a bunch of guys running all over the place trying to cover open guys. Scoring is all about talent. But defense is all about heart and effort and that’s what we need. We’ve seen this talented team get clobbered way too often. It’s time this team learns how to fight every game. Bring in George Hill and couple other hard nosed players and give up Josh Smith, Jamal Crawford, and Mike Bibby and you will have a tough team. And trust me, you can get a lot of value for those three guys so make it happen now.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 14th, 2011
1:19 pm

“The MYTH is that we need a great defensive PG, we don’t….. We need an average defensive PG to give the Hawks better defensive balance.(like Mario Chalmers) He simply stays infront if his man….Is that too much to ask of your starting PG.”

They just need a point guard who is not below average at both offense and defense. This is why I am a big fan of trading for Nash. Nash is at least as bad as Bibby defensively, but at least he contributes on the other end (in his case he contributes far more on the other end than he takes away defensively). If Bibby was still hitting 50% of his 3’s and could run the pick and roll with Horford it would be a different story.

EmirS.

February 14th, 2011
1:20 pm

What’s that? Something we need?

We need a bench. That’s what we need. A damn (can I say damn?) bench! Our starters can’t play 48 minutes a game. Why do you think Horford played 40 minutes versus the Bobcats with a bad back. There is no one that can come in off the bench to be any support. When Jamal is on an off night we dont have a secondary bench person to rely on. We dont have a supporting cast off the bench. You can go down the list after Jamal:

Evans
Teague
Zaza
Collins
Powell
Thomas
Rookie Crawford

If you noticed I left out Damien Wilkins. As someone whose getting paid less then half of these guys and at times gets alot less minutes, his contribution is unsurpassed (my opinion) by any on that list. So now think about it. If Mr. Wilkins is your next best player off the bench then what does that say for your bench overall….?

doc

February 14th, 2011
1:37 pm

nire
understand
thanks

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
1:45 pm

Najeh, some want to focus on Nash’s age but the fact is that he is having a season that compares favorably to his MVP years (at least individually). I can’t imagine that Phoenix trades him for an expiring contract and other stuff. He is shooting 50/40/90, handing out 11 assists and isn’t playing with a single All-Star or near All-Star. I’d bet that in the next 2 years, that he will likely play more total minutes than CP3 (at least based on recent history). Bottom line, I think he is out of our “trade range” as most have no desire to trade one of our captains to improve the team.

Solo

February 14th, 2011
2:20 pm

MC, thank you for spelling out the problem for Rick Sund and ASG, a great article i really respect you for your honesty. I hope ASG is going understand this group of players are not going anywhere, plus if Jamal Crawford is not returning next seasons we should package him with Josh Smith or Mervin/Evans/Zaza/bibby and see what we can get for return, but they need to make a big trade. As long as we have Al and JJ we are a play off team any way so please ASG make a big trade before you lose the remaining funs that you have left.

niremetal

February 14th, 2011
2:26 pm

Methinks Solo needs to read bylines more carefully.

CFTSOC

tyger

February 14th, 2011
3:33 pm

Rajon Rondo…

Nick Van Excel spoke during the summer about getting the “dog” out of Teague. Well, if you didn’t know what he meant, then watching Rajon Rondo operate is mandatory.

Teague and Rondo are very similar, on paper. Same size, speed, athleticism, ball-handling, weak shooters, but what’s the difference? Rajon Rondo is a rottweiler, Teague is a poodle. That dog don’t hunt, don’t bite, don’t even bark. He’s in constant retreat, he doesn’t want the ball, on offense or defense, even though he has the raw tools, he doesn’t have the fighting heart.

Now, he’s a nice guy, no doubt about it, but this emphasis on nice guys in ATL has gone too far, we’re becoming a town of beotches. From the Falcoons to the Hawks, every time the money is only the line, we roll-over. Marvin seems to be the only guy in town, who don’t take no $hit and he don’t even get to play no more.

Rondo is a good model. He wasn’t a high pick, didn’t have a John Wall college career and had a shaky start as a pro. Yet, he responded, he elevated his game and whatever weaknesses he had were offset by his strengths. He still isn’t a good shooter, but he uses what he has, speed, hustle, aggressiveness, awareness, quickness, heart.

He’s relentless, fearless, he’s 6′2 and in King James’ pocket? Someone should steal a pair of his sweaty socks and make Teague sleep in them, maybe an ounce of his DNA would rub off.

All this LD talk is non-sense. Bibby, JJ, Crawford make over $31M year combined, have over 40yrs. NBA experience total and can’t hold a 22pt lead or score one basket or FT in the 4th qtr?? Why are we paying them? Between the three of them, they couldn’t figure how to get to the FT line one time? And that’s the coaches fault? GTFOH!!!

Tremaine

February 14th, 2011
3:55 pm

All we are saying is GIVE TEAGUE A CHANCE!

Rufus1

February 14th, 2011
4:12 pm

Rondo

Rondo non-jump shooting a$$ would be riding the pine in ATL.

Tremaine

February 14th, 2011
4:14 pm

Rondo was fun to watch yesterday.

ATL4Life

February 14th, 2011
4:24 pm

It is time for Atlanta Spirit to sell the association.

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
4:25 pm

Rufus, I disagree… Hawks signed Speedy to be a defensive disrupter not because he had a great jumper. The previous coach gave Mario West some playing time just because of his defensive tenacity. That’s what kills me about last year’s draft, Darren Collison was a defensive terror for seemingly 7 years at UCLA. Toney Douglas was the ACC Defensive Player of the Year. But we swung for the fences instead of drafting players who were already exceptional at an area of need. And then guess what happened? Both Collison and Douglas proved they had enough offensive game to be budding 2-way players. Meanwhile, our “PG of the future” is looking more and more like a forgettable late round draft pick.

doc

February 14th, 2011
4:30 pm

tyger, poodles are not docile, they are good hunters and very smart, among the smartest in the canine world. do not compare them to teague that looks more like the heinz 57 mutt from the pound than a true bred dog with papers.

niremetal

February 14th, 2011
4:33 pm

AJ,

Have you watched Knicks games this year? TDouglas looks flat-out awful. He seems to have lost a step, which is odd considering his age, but I recall hearing rumblings about his conditioning back before the ‘09 draft. In any case, I don’t think I’ll be shedding any tears over missing out on him.

niremetal

February 14th, 2011
4:36 pm

I was gonna compare Teague to my kitten, Chip. He’ll sleep for a long time, then wake up and run around with no apparent purpose for a few minutes. Sounds about right ;)

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
4:55 pm

nire, I haven’t watched any Knicks games lately. I had Douglas on my fantasy team earlier in the season before he was injured. As bad as he’s been, I doubt that he has 10 DNP-CDs. It’s all relative, my guess is that with Bibby’s current issues, Douglas would be getting some run.

In the spirit of your CFTSOC, I am hereby on the “start Teague anyway” band-wagon. I would love to see him get to start one or both of the next 2 games just for the intrigue of watching him play extended minutes with the starters. Somehow, watching Collins doesn’t quite hold high entertainment value for me. He was forgettable against Philly and clearly earned yet another DNP-CD for that sterling effort. Heck, throw the kid out there just for the benefit of bored fans. If not Teague, bring back Pape Sy and start him. I am becoming the worse kind of fan.. the bored and apathetic kind looking for something to spark my fading interests.

doc

February 14th, 2011
4:57 pm

jt0 to chip in 18 months. :-)

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
5:00 pm

I heard that when Jeff Teague was compared to some popular dog breeds, that Mike Vick came out to speak out on behalf of the dogs. Something about comparing dogs to Teague is a form of animal abuse. :lol:

Who cares? Give the dog a bone… or in this case, a start. My team has become a bore…. UGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!

governor404

February 14th, 2011
5:10 pm

Saturday’s loss is the result of poor coaching during crunch time a time when coaches’ decisions (right or wrong) are magnified. For the life of me, why was Marvin’s length (6′9″) not utilized on a perimeter player who everyone in the building knew would get the ball. No way would the elite coaches (Doc, Pop, or Phil) have let that matchup be exploited. Has Marvin fallen that far out of favor where his defense and length cannot be used. Mo Evans is barely 6′4″ and the xtra 5″ probably would have effected that shot that we all new was coming with Josh being isolated far away from the intended target. Its the little coaching indecisions like this that keep me wondering is Larry in over his head.

Ken Strickland

February 14th, 2011
6:55 pm

FUNDAMENTALS-Can you name a single incident where it can be said that Bibby has shown any of this fire and aggressiveness that’s being demanded from Teague? I don’t know about the rest of you, but it makes far more sense to expect and demand more aggressiveness from a veteran starting PG that’s averaging a meager 9.3PPG and 3.6APG in 29.8MPG, which is only 4.4PPG and 1.8APG above what his backup is producing playing 12MPG, or 17.8 fewer, and very inconsistent MPG.

Teague has shot more FT’s(46) in 12MPG in 43gms, than Bibby has shot(45) averaging 29.8MPG over 53gms. And you BIBBY LOVERS still insist on claiming you don’t know what Teague can do. He can:

1-Consistently get to the FT line and score, Bibby can’t.
2-Breakdown DEF’s with his penetration and create easier scoring opportunities for others, Bibby can’t.
3-Be a viable scorer at the FT line(.83FT%), Bibby can’t(.63FT%).
4-Take a rebound and challenge a teams transition DEF by going coast to coast, Bibby can’t.
5-Play perimeter DEF well enough to eliminate any need for gimmick DEF’s, Bibby can’t.
6-Add an entirely different dimension to the OFF when our outside shooting fails, Bibby can’t.
7-Provide good transition DEF and defend the rim against fastbreaks, Bibby can’t.
8-Get better offensivelly and defensively with more mins, support and encouragement, Bibby can’t.
9-Become the long term solution to our poor OFF/DEF PG production, Bibby can’t.

And with all of this staring you right in the face, so many of you still pretend not to know what Teague can do, which is just about everything Bibby can’t do. One thing is certain, all of you sure as hell know what Bibby can’t do, but you don’t seem to care about that., or see it as a problem. AGAIN, IT’S THE CAN’T SEE THE FOREST FOR THE TREES SYNDROM.

O'Brien

February 14th, 2011
7:15 pm

From LD’s introductory press conference (on ajc.com);

Drew on point guard Jeff Teague, who was seldom used as a rookie by Mike Woodson: “I really believe this kid has the package. Rick [Sund] and I spoke about it. I think he has the ability to make this team better, to have an impact on this team. The offense will really benefit from his speed and his quickness — to break the defense down.”.

That might be why Rick did not get a backup PG.

O'Brien

February 14th, 2011
7:16 pm

So LD talks about the team settling for jump shots, but he makes it sound like we havent been doing it all year…

We have been doing it all year LD. And we did it last year under Woody.

vava74

February 14th, 2011
7:38 pm

Semi-off-topic:

Anyone of you older but not so old geezers had a Commodore Amiga and played TV SPORTS Basketball?

The guys from FoxSports Michigan look like the older version of the presenters on that game.

Real old skool stuff. The posture, the gestures, the way they hold the mic, the phrases…

O'Brien

February 14th, 2011
7:52 pm

Josh starts off 1-3 on jumpers, including airball from 3. But its a good sign that Bibby made his first shot (a 3 pointer).

vava74

February 14th, 2011
7:55 pm

Josh is again fading when he launches his jump shots.

Hence his misses.

vava74

February 14th, 2011
7:58 pm

Collins out: 0-7 run for the pistons

vava74

February 14th, 2011
7:59 pm

and a ton on o.reb

by the way, Josh is playing like crap on both ends and he is the last to go out.

way to go LD.

O'Brien

February 14th, 2011
8:02 pm

doc,

Stuckey looking good.

TMac is balling (JJ couldnt slow him down). Hawks could have signed TMac for cheap in the offseason. That would have helped marketing, and allowed them to trade Jamal (because Mo/TMac/JC2 can all play SG).

O'Brien

February 14th, 2011
8:03 pm

BTW,

Hawks had a 6 point lead in this quarter, and now they trail by 7.

Meanwhile, the 3rd turnover for Josh this quarter.

vava74

February 14th, 2011
8:07 pm

It’s offical:

LD has completely lost it.

There isn’t a resemblance of a rotation anymore (we had when we started the season).

The starter who is playing WORSE is the guy that stays in for the whole period.

F*ck, get his *ss out of there immediately. I am pulling the plug on him.

vava74

February 14th, 2011
8:08 pm

OB,

TMac is balling because we play passive D.

In the only play JJ really made an effort TMac hit the rim from below with his lay up.

O'Brien

February 14th, 2011
8:14 pm

I’m glad LD decided to wait until after the AS break to make any changes….if he didnt like what he sees in these 2 games.

I wonder if he likes what he is seeing tonight…

Nique said the Pistons are rolling because of the breakdowns their PG is creating.

I wonder who is being broken down?

Typical Nique tipt oes around the issue, and wont say BIBBY by name.

O'Brien

February 14th, 2011
8:17 pm

vava,

TMac is averaging 8 pts, 3 rebs and 3 assists on the season. not bad numbers…

Meanwhile, 4 turnovers for Josh

vava74

February 14th, 2011
8:20 pm

OB,

He is playing with the Pistons. Just about anyone can get those numbers if given the minutes on a bad team.

painandgain

February 14th, 2011
8:24 pm

no mojo, no cojo, no nothing, real bad

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
8:25 pm

If the Hawks are able to get back in the game shooting 3s, will they have the discipline to stop shooting them and run their basic offense?

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
8:27 pm

Bibby is ballin’ in the last few minutes, defense, shooting, passing…

O'Brien

February 14th, 2011
8:27 pm

Bibby came to play offensively tonight. Hawks cut the lead from 15 down to 3.

AJ,

The same can be said of the Pistons too.

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
8:30 pm

If Charlie V makes 30 fooeters all night, then so be it. But I doubt that he (or the Pistons) can sustain that 3 ball.

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
8:33 pm

Sweet pass by whipping boy.

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
8:33 pm

Nice recovery.

vava74

February 14th, 2011
8:34 pm

Astro,

The Pistons have been on fire from the 3 but we have rarely put a hand on the face of the shooter.

Rotations have been horrible until the last 4 or 5 minutes when we improved on all fronts.

If the rotations become lax again, the 3 pointers will continue to fall.

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
8:37 pm

I think I’ve read previously that LD prefers not to run on the road but these guys only tend to defend when they get to run. This teams needs to energize themselves and they are able to do that on the run when they run, not my executing half-court sets. Again, nice recovery in the 2nd quarter.

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
8:42 pm

vava, the Pistons are shooting close to 35% from 2 and 80% from 3. That won’t last.

vava74

February 14th, 2011
8:50 pm

Astro,

And we are shooting .677 from the floor overall and also .800 from 3.

That won’t last either for us.

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
8:55 pm

Leave that 3 ball alone now.

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
8:57 pm

vava, thus my 8:25 post.

vava74

February 14th, 2011
9:00 pm

Bibby had an excellent second quarter.

A quarter he could reproduce – more or less – every time if his role was to be a scorer / stable guy off the bench.

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
9:05 pm

Get in that lane, get in that lane. Leave the 3-ball pipe alone.

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
9:08 pm

Bibby’s 3rd shot in the paint (at least).

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
9:12 pm

Can the bench maintain the lead?

O'Brien

February 14th, 2011
9:14 pm

Pistons will not go away…

O'Brien

February 14th, 2011
9:20 pm

Wow. if bibby could play like this every night…we might be asking teague who…

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
9:42 pm

Very well played game. Much better discipline and focus tonight. Great performances by Josh and the Whipping Boys.

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
9:47 pm

Also interesting to see how LD played a super-tight rotation. Meanwhile, Teague is stinking up the last few seconds while looking clueless (after watching mostly smat ball for most of the night).

niremetal

February 14th, 2011
9:53 pm

For the second time in four games, Josh is going J-Smash. I would count the Charlotte game as 3 in 4, but I can’t bring myself to call it “Smash” when he only finished with 6 rebs – we’ll call that a Smoove game. Like I’ve said, if Josh sets his mind to it, he could easily average 12 rpg…at a minimum.

Downside is that he shot a ton of jumpers tonight. The upside is he made most of them. Josh’s jumpers watch update:

vs. Phl: 2-8 (0-1 on 3s)
vs. Cha: 5-10 (2-4 on 3s)
vs. Det: 7-12 (1-3 on 3s)

Total: 14-30 (3-8 on 3s)
FG%: .467
eFG%: .517
eFG% vs. season avg: +.078
vs. ’09-’10 avg: +.232

—————————————–
Good games all around tonight. Al was not aggressive enough, which is my only major complaint. I still stand by what I said before:

CFTSOC

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
9:53 pm

So if 6 players can provide 28+ minutes and maintain shot discipline, we may have a very good road trip. I’m glad he didn’t have Al play 41 minutes like he did the other night in his first game back from a bad back injury.

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
9:55 pm

nire, Josh just said in the post game interview that he is trying to show the Eastern Conference coaches that they should have selected him for the All-Star game.

vava74

February 14th, 2011
9:57 pm

Great 3 quarters by Josh after an horrible 1st.

Bibby has the knack of returning from the dead every single time we intend to dig his grave.

I would still move him to the bench regardless of tonight – the Pistons’ back court is so soft defensively that Bibby managed to venture into the paint and score 4 or 5 times, a post 2002 record for him, I am sure.

The Pistons are also so bad that we managed to come from -15 and win comfortably with Al resting.

Teague is mentally destroyed right now.

When his name was called for the mop up duties he literally dragged himself to the scorers table as if he was carrying 2 tons on each leg and then went on to lose a ball and get rejected at the rim in two lame plays.

To be honest, I would not trust a guy who’s son has been arrested for manslaughter after a gun related incident to educate/motivate/psych up anyone.

Van Exel had trouble managing his own self, how can he help a guy who seems to be the precise opposite character wise?

Astro Joe

February 14th, 2011
10:05 pm

vava, that wasn’t a cool comment regarding NVE’s son and certainly was a lame excuse for Teague looking like a child out there. I was reminded of something that I say to my youngest son very often, “you play too much”. Teague was out there acting like a 7 YO child just playing around instead of earning his coach’s trust. He’s on that Gerald Green career path.

LD talking about Marvin playing better off the bench after he was horrid off the bench 2 days ago. LD takes credit for Marvin tonight while not addressing his poor performance off the bench the other night. Whatever.

O'Brien

February 14th, 2011
10:05 pm

AJ,

Teague didnt look like he wanted to be out there. its like he was mad for not playing meaningful minutes.

And the main reason why Al didnt play 41 minutes is because of the 2 foul rule, and then he picked up his 4th at the end of the third quarter.

O'Brien

February 14th, 2011
10:08 pm

Good game by Bibby. he was bad defensively early on, but he definitely made up for it later in the game. His best game in over 2 years.

I’m glad hawks came back to win.

Good win. but there are still things we can build on. Like turnovers (we had 17), we gave up lots of offensive rebounds early, and we didnt always get a hand up. in front of shooters

But we showed poise, which is what the Hawks do. They may look horrible for a game or 2, but then they bounce back for a resilient game, making LD and others believe in them again.

Lets hope we can get a win against the Knicks.

vava,

I think that comment about NVE’s son was harsh…

doc

February 14th, 2011
10:16 pm

now who was saying how sorry josh is? the guy has to kee this up if we are to get to the next level. he has to want to be the man and quit crappping out, j smash it is. some of d wade best games and nash’s best games came with a lot of to’s. he is not in their category just saying sometimes those things happen if someone is trying too hard. let the game come to you j smash. please get ths guy a sports psychologist. some of the best pro’s in the world have them to get their games to the top.

i_am_soulstar

February 14th, 2011
10:19 pm

I don’t see how the Hawks don’t make a run at Andre Miller. This teams needs a trade to have any hopes of advancing to the ECF.

niremetal

February 14th, 2011
10:20 pm

AJ,

It would have been nice if Josh had decided to show the coaches why should have made the All-Star before the team was selected rather than 50 games into the season. But hey, I’ll definitely take it if he can keep it up from now through the playoffs.

doc

February 14th, 2011
10:35 pm

j smash is an all star, j smoove will never make it in basketball. find the guy a psychologist to make him whole again and the former identity.

so chipper teague had a bad outing? still want to just try him.

kwooden1

February 14th, 2011
10:45 pm

Nice game by the starters, but especially good games by Bibby and Marvin. I’m surprised that Bibby came back strong so quick but I just don’t believe he can play this way the rest of the year and into the Playoffs. I didn’t see the game but from what I heard Marvin was attacking the rim which is something this team really needs. I hope that the HAWKS defense was really good in the 4th and it just wasn’t the PISTONS missing open shots.

I hope that Jeff can get his act together next time he’s called on, I’m really pulling for him to develop.
Still looking for a trade though.

GO HAWKS!!

Najeh Davenpoop

February 14th, 2011
11:21 pm

At least two of Smoove’s turnovers came when he tried to drive the ball and failed. One was a charge and he got stripped on another one.

You know, driving the ball. That thing everyone inexplicably thinks Smoove can do even though his handles are terrible.

Nice game for him though. Great job crashing the boards, solid post play, good D, and nice job for the most part hitting his open shots.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 14th, 2011
11:23 pm

Big props to Bibby and Marvin, too. Wish they would play like that every game, Marvin especially.

niremetal

February 14th, 2011
11:34 pm

The Bobcats just have the Lakers’ number. Crazy. Proof of why head-to-head records are not a good basis for judging the quality of two teams.

2/15/2011 News Update « B-Ball

February 15th, 2011
12:36 am

[...] of Detroit Pistons forward Austin Daye (5) in the second half of an NBA basketball game in …Hawks leave home, hope for some positive continuityAtlanta Journal Constitution (blog)all 231 news [...]

vava74

February 15th, 2011
6:52 am

Najeh,

Actually THREE of Smoove’s TOs came when he tried to drive.

But there were significant differences between one of them and the two in which he spun into the lane and got swiped (which is a play he manages to do effectively many times).

His typical stupid TO when he thinks he is Magic and got called for a charge and that he should completely avoid.

At least 5 out of 10 fastbreak drives ends up with a TO (charge, bad pass, missed lay up).

vava74

February 15th, 2011
7:00 am

Najeh,

Bibby will not be able to replicate this too many times.

The Pistons were the softest perimeter D I have seen this season. For crying out loud, Bibby drove to the lane at will for lay ups. Several layups.

I think that illustrates Stuckey, Bynum, Gordon and McGrady’s complete defensive inefficiency (and their bigs completely failed to rotate and show up in the lane) more than Bibby’s actual improvement.

O'Brien

February 15th, 2011
7:26 am

Good games by Bibby, Marvin and Josh.

Bibby has to play well offensively to even out what he gives up defensively.

I like Marvin coming off the bench because he is more involved (imo). Even in games when the Hawks dont start the big lineup, they can start somebody else at SF and bring Marvin off the bench.

Speaking of the bench, Jamal is struggling. He played 30 minutes, but did not contribute much. In 6 February games, he had 1 great game of 34 points against the Clippers. In the other 5 games this month, he is averaging 6 pts and 4 assists (and his usual bad defense).

I hope he turns it around on this road trip.

Astro Joe

February 15th, 2011
9:26 am

I was a little surprised that Josh specifically called out the Eastern Conference coaches after the game. I’m glad that he has found a cause that motivates him… hopefully he will remember that in November and will avoid cursing out his head coach as well. If he thinks that his “snub” was exclusively about his basketball performance/stats, then he is a misguided vet.

After a very uncomfortable 24 hour ride (not even that) on the “start Teague anyway” band-wagon, I am officially off. That kid ain’t ready for a grown man’s role on this team. Feed him some Similac and let’s hope that he eventually matures. Sund needs to find a 2-for-1 trade so we can get Antonio Daniels on the roster.

O'Brien

February 15th, 2011
9:58 am

AJ,

You gotta give the bandwagon more time to pick up steam downhill. And if you jump off now, you might lose your seat.

Josh’s biggest issues (imo) are still maturity and consistency. Why can’t he play more games like he did last night? And he probably has a bad reputation (fair or not) around the league (in terms of being a whiner, and hard to coach (Woody clashes, LD discussions). So doing things like grabbing your crotch on national TV is not going to help his cause, especially when he says other people are doing it, so he didnt know better.

I think he has to change the perception that people have of him, and he has to play more consistently.

As for trades, I dont like the fact we have a full roster of 15 already. What good is Etan? Sy is a big question mark, but maybe he will be ready to compete for bench minutes next season.

O'Brien

February 15th, 2011
10:02 am

doc,

This was from the game writeup.

“Zaza is out of sorts. His worst moment was catching the ball in the paint alone near the rim and fading away from it to miss a bank shot. It’s getting to the point where sometimes it almost seems as if he would rather be fouled than have to finish at the basket.”MC.

Good stuff. He’ll have 1 good game once in a while, but for the second year in a row, he is struggling. I dont think he is one of the better backups in the league anymore…

O'Brien

February 15th, 2011
10:05 am

And the worst part is after this year, ZaZa is still owed 2 years and $10 mil.

Astro Joe

February 15th, 2011
10:23 am

OB, the sad thing is that as bad as Zaza has been, we can’t afford to lose him. If nothing else, he has shown a willingness to bang and bang hard against any and everyone. Etan seems to have the lift of a piano these days and can’t be trusted to do as much as Zaza.

How hard must it have been for Sund to find bigs as ineffective as RandMo and Joe Smith? But he did it with Etan and Powell. Maybe next year he can bring in Stromile Swift and Patrick O’Braynt.

doc

February 15th, 2011
10:56 am

ob, he is a head case now. it was disgusting to see holiday do a rejection on him as he “led the break” against philly. sorry, he has as much chance of finishing as bibby does which is really sad. remember when bibby started choking on the layups?

i would like and prefer sund to get bob petit a true hall of famer AJ. probably still property of the hawks to boot instead of what he gives these coaches to work with.

Astro Joe

February 15th, 2011
11:33 am

doc, good idea. I’m pretty sure that Alligator Arms still lives in the area, Kevin Willis would be as productive as Etan.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 15th, 2011
1:06 pm

“Bibby will not be able to replicate this too many times.”

You’re right, and I wouldn’t continue to expect that out of him. I do hope Marvin can continue playing like he did in this game though. He has played better recently, with the exception of the stinker against Charlotte. The Hawks don’t need him to be a superstar or a go to scorer. All the Hawks need him to do is what he did yesterday — hit open shots, play hard nosed defense, cut to the basket and get fouled. He played that role to perfection last night. And if he can hit those open shots with regularity, it may allow LD to say goodbye to the Bibby/Jamal backcourt in crunch time.

O'Brien

February 15th, 2011
1:15 pm

AJ,

I was glad when the Hawks resigned ZaZa. He was coming off a good season, and he was still young, In fact, I liked his deal more than I liked Bibby (3rd year should have been a team option, not guaranteed) and Marvin’s (5th year should have been team option, not player option). But I did not see this regression coming.

If nothing else, he has shown a willingness to bang and bang hard against any and everyone. .

True. But Mario West also showed a willingness to play D on any and everyone. But for $4.5 mil, we need more out of ZaZa.

But its like he anticipates the foul, so he hardly goes up strong.

doc

February 15th, 2011
1:40 pm

ob, you know the problem with zaza anticipating the foul is he has become a very poor free throw shooter as well. his whole game has deteriorated from the guy we saw when he arrived and ultimately played jaw to jaw with KG. he is a cartoon of himself now. sad to see it as i like him a lot and thought he could be a mainstay here for years as a back up. now he is a third stringer at best on a team that has no real center or bulk and requires him to play and act like a starter.

i didnt mind the marvin contract as he was looking fairly reasonable, shoot i was even arguing with rod’s hyperbole. i finally caved in.

Astro Joe

February 15th, 2011
3:03 pm

Rufus1

February 15th, 2011
3:16 pm

Pape Sy

If nothing else, he is an efficient scorer…8pts on 2-4 shots and 8rebs in 20min….I will Take it.

Astro Joe

February 15th, 2011
4:39 pm

Rufus, not sure that he is playing like a PG (which is what LD projected as his position) but good to see that he is improving and contributing to his team.

O'Brien

February 15th, 2011
7:48 pm

I am concerned about Sy’s 3pt shooting percentage though. On the season, he is 3-19 from 3 (16%). And although LD projects him as a PG, he has only 26 assists in 434 minutes of PT. I know its hard to put too much in the numbers without watching the game, but his numbers in the D-League are not reassuring.

I know this is a learning season, so I hope he will be able to compete for bench minutes next year.

I also think they should send Teague to the D-League and see if he can find his inner dog down there.

Wink

February 15th, 2011
8:54 pm

The Hawks are continuity.

By definition: Unchanging quality: the fact of staying the same, of being consistent throughout, or of not stopping or being interrupted.

Why get all hot & bothered about the fate of this team. They give us exactly what they always give us. That missing element in the team is the same missing element in this team and management has not done anything to address the problem. They are satisfied with status quo.

We saw in the summer that most of the Eastern Conference team made moves to improve their roster. Boston, Miami, Chicago, Orlando, and New York. We expect to get better by keeping our CORE together…maintain continuity. Josh states they need to BOND after 4-5 years together and 50 games this season…BOND! Sounds like Iverson’s PRACTICE!

Player Attitudes & Development remain the same…only Horford has the serious Basketball IQ in the entire organization, including management.

Look, No way we enter the playoff a 3rd seed this year. We are certainly going to finish 4th or 5th, probably 5th, but it does not really matter. Our 1st round exit will be at the hands of the Orlando Magic (4 – 1)

That what continuity will get us…so just relax and watch the roller coaster that is the Atlanta Hawks. Current road trip should be telling but I suspect most of us already know the results!!!!

Rise Up Spirit Group!!

Big Ray

February 15th, 2011
9:19 pm

Ray ,

Don’t say that. An NFL lockout would kill me. I gave up on baseball (I used to follow the Braves like a devoted dog and been to Turner field numerous times, now I can’t name a Brave not named Chipper), and I don’t pay much attention to soccer.

The NBA? Maybe they need one. I don’t know…

Big Ray

February 15th, 2011
9:46 pm

I’ll admit giving Joe(Big Money contract) Johnson all that money was the worse move ever in the history of all sports. You’re paying someone who is actually a 2nd-3rd option on the celtics, lakers, or spurs 1st option money. We all see that.

Actually, I would have voted Rashard Lewis or Gilbert Arenas as worst contract, long before Joe. In the case of the Atlanta Hawks, it wasn’t about Joe and the contract. It was about the Hawks painting themselves into such a corner that it was either pay Joe max money or watch him leave for less. Had the Hawks done some things differently between the time they got him in a S&T and this past offseason, we probably wouldn’t have been in that position.

But…that’s also hindsight talk…

Big Ray

February 15th, 2011
9:55 pm

Big Daddy ,

Thanks! We can hope for a trade, but I don’t know if we’ll get one, much less one that we need to have. I’m not an NBA executive and I won’t pretend to be. But I am aware of the fact that sometimes you have to make a trade that doesn’t seem all that great at first….in order to make way for another move (or two) down the road.

Kwooden ,

Thanks. It’s kinda crazy that we don’t know for sure what Teague is capable of just yet. And while I’m not going to make excuses for him, I have a hard time seeing how we’re going to find that out unless either

A) Jamal is traded away and isn’t replaced by a prominent backcourt player.

B)Larry Drew decides to just start playing him 18-20 mpg.

C) Jamal or Mike Bibby (or both) incur injuries that take them out of the lineup for a significant amount of time.

or

D) Suddenly, Teague develops a reliable perimeter shot.

Other than that, I couldn’t tell you why he’s all but forgotten. Beyond that lack of an effective offensive game, I don’t know precisely what he’s missing…unless it’s that floor leadership intangible.

Big Ray

February 15th, 2011
10:03 pm

Rufus1 ,

Good post.

Chris E ,

Fan support isn’t great. We can blame it on a variety of factors, but it’s true that the fans haven’t been what they were when we played Boston in the playoffs back in 2008.

Then again, the team hasn’t shown that much fire and continuity since then, either. In fact, I think that was their best playoff series in the last few years. Crazy, huh? The problem here is growth. There hasn’t been enough internal growth, at least not the kind that is cohesive. So, the team needed to change some parts out. That hasn’t happened, at least not to any truly satisfying end. I realize it’s trial and error sometimes (maybe a lot of times). But there sure has been a lot of the same errors the last couple of years…

Big Ray

February 15th, 2011
10:20 pm

AJ ,

I am becoming the worse kind of fan.. the bored and apathetic kind looking for something to spark my fading interests.

This is precisely what management/ownership should be worried about. Because you BY FAR are not the only one.

As for Larry Drew, I think he needs to have a more open mind. Sy as a pg is an option, not the rule. Same for JC2 being a SG and not a PG.

Again, I cannot reconcile this way of thinking with how he uses Jamal.

O’brien ,

Very few things LD said in the offseason are coming to fruition during the season. Just sayin’….and I gather that was YOUR point as well. :)

Big Ray

February 15th, 2011
10:31 pm

The Detroit Game

Smith plays hero again, this time the team wins. Now that was stepping up and leading. It’s also why we can’t bring him off the bench for this team. Our team defense feeds off of him. Now if we had a much better defender at pg, that would be a different story, I think. Collins doesn’t have the type of impact at the 5 from night to night, to do this…

There were some moments where the total team defense was just so good to see. There were times where the typical defensive problems were ugly.

Very good games by Mike Bibby and Marvin Williams. They played their roles quite well.

Zaza looks out of joint again. Teague…ehhh, there’s no point in even talking about it. I’m at the point where it’s either play him or trade him.

Damien Wilkins is somebody I’d be hanging onto next year. Etan Thomas isn’t.

Looking forward to the game against New York, where I don’t expect energy to be a problem. Especially with what Amare had to say.

kwooden

February 15th, 2011
11:31 pm

Sy, really never plays PG on his team. They have at least 4 guys that can bring the ball up and some other combo guards that can also. From what I’ve seen he needs to spend this year and the summer in the development leagues before he’s even close to being ready. He looks like a SF and plays like one to me. We don’t really need another SF with Wilkins around and besides I don’t think Sy is even the best SF on his current team. The positives I see with Sy are his speed and ability to get to the line. He’s a good defender, but I’ve only seen him cover D-Leaguers. If LD wants him to be a PG, then he better get him out of the D-League and play him at PG. I think Sy is already a better player from being in the D-League, but he definitely not tracking to be a PG.

kwooden

February 16th, 2011
12:03 am

I just realized that maybe I’m giving Bibby to much of a pass. Kidd will be 38 next month and Nash is 37 now. Those guys have their problems on defensive but they still dictate the pace of the game. I’m not say that Bibby’s a Hall-of-Fame player like both of those guys, but I am saying we should expect something closer to the old Bibby. I think Bibby’s going to retire after next year, because he’s done with basketball. That’s why we’re getting the Bibby we’re getting. Its seems from last night he can be more consistent with his drives to the basket. If he can we have a completely different team. Every team has weaknesses, but a better Bibby can potentially make-up for ours.

E43

February 16th, 2011
12:48 am

Ken Strickland- i think Jeff teague just needs to understand that advice will always be there.. right now hes just playing like a puppet and not developing his game. if LD tells him to play fast hell lose the ball. if hes told to play slow hell end up passing 3pointers with 2 seconds left. I dont think the mistakes he makes are because he doesnt get playing time because there was one game where he was supposed to have called a timeout and he got mugged the other way for 2 like someone was supposed to tell him to protect the ball up. He deserves minutes but not extended minutes and if he can go 2 minutes without committing a turnover or poor play then be my guest give him even more minutes. he literally played seconds before he turned the ball over and a few more seconds before he went down and got blocked. Next thing you know his 1:27 seconds are already up.

UGASlobberknocker

February 16th, 2011
8:31 am

Big Ray, you are right on about Coach Drew. He has done nothing to motivate this team and seemingly is unable to affect the game play. He is awful out of timeouts and the players seem indifferent. The Hawks take off about every other game and do not show any killer instinct or any passion out there. Take away Horford and the rest of the team seems on autopilot most of the time In my opinion as a longtime Hawk fan, this team needs to be blown up, starting with the head coach.Joe Johnson is not a man to hang your teams fortunes on..he disappears too many quarters. Bibby is past his prime. Marvin is a wasted talent. This team as constituted cannot get out of the first round. I am afraid we are falling into the old Lenny Wilkins mode of being OK with 48 win seasons and first round exits. That isnt good enough for me.

Astro Joe

February 16th, 2011
9:17 am

Tonight should provide a “toughness litmus test” for the Hawks. The crowd will surely be hostile and the opposing team may be hostile (sorry but Amar’e doesn’t come across as a descendant of Maurice Lucas, Charles Oakley & Anthony Mason). The focus will be squarely on Al “The Boss” Horford. This would also be the right time to activate Etan Thomas, in case LD truly wants to “man-up” at some point in the game. Lastly, this is the kind of game where Zaza has been able to earn his keep in the past… let’s see what happens tonight.

Astro Joe

February 16th, 2011
9:28 am

To fully comprehend Teague’s minute of play against the Pistons, you have to go back to the 76ers game. A blowout loss and he had the last 14 minutes of the game to play. He was facing bench players from a team that is not on the Hawks level and he looked very, very ordinary. In no way shape or form did he distinguish himself in a situation where he should have been keenly focused on distinguishing himself to coahes and teammates. That earned him yet another DNP-CD against the Bobcats followed by a humiliating effort to finish the Pistons game. He’s like a running back who complains about not getting enough touches and then runs into his own blocker & fumbles the ball when given a chance to play.

Feed him some Similac and hope that he eventually matures into someone capable of playing a grown man’s game.

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
10:03 am

AJ,

In the 4th quarter of the Sixers game, part of the reason for Teague blending in is because Jordan dominated the ball and the quarter (good and bad).

In the fourth, Jordan had 4 rebounds, 4 shot attempts (he made one), 2 turnovers, 2 assists and comitted 3 fouls. And whenever Jordan got the rebound, he kept the ball and pushed it. And when another Hawks player got the rebound, they passed it to Jordan.

Teague ended up with 2 shot attempts (he made one), and 2 FT attempts in the quarter. So its hard to dominate when you dont have the ball.

My complaint with Teague for that game is being passive and not demanding the ball. But my eye test suggests LD has no confidence in him to run the point successfully even when Jordan is in the game.

When Jordan is in the game, he plays PG while Teague stands off the by the corner (which is the same thing that happens when Jamal is in the game). Or Teague will push the ball up, and then hand it off to Jordan, and then get out of the way.

So more than anything, his aggressiveness and hunger is not there. And without that, he hasn’t shown enough of anything else.

kwooden

February 16th, 2011
10:11 am

I think Jeff just needs to concentrate on staying in front of his man. If he plays good defense he will get playing time. He turns the ball over when he’s trying to make something out of nothing. If he stays with his man and keeps working hard without fouling he should be fine. He’s probably one of those guys who can’t filter out what everyone is saying to him. (be aggressive, speed the game up, get steals, attack the rim, etc…) He doesn’t appear to be a natural PG or floor leader, but he can learn those things well enough. He needs to just work on one thing at a time, which is playing good defense.

Astro Joe

February 16th, 2011
10:45 am

OB, I wasn’t looking for teague to “dominate” just act like you want a slot in the rotation… which he doesn’t do consistently. Sometimes you have to raise your hand in class in order to get some help or attention from the teacher… I’m not convinced that Teague has enough desire or humility to raise his hand. If he can’t maintain his “ranking” with a rookie guard how the heck is he supposed to run the offense with Joe, Josh and Al in the game?

wordsmithtom

February 16th, 2011
1:05 pm

Listen, if Teague lets a rookie take his ball, he doesn’t have what it takes. Don’t know where finds that dog…maybe at the Westminster Kennel Club. They had a show in Madison Square Garden last night. Maybe that will rub off on him. Until he gets pissed off and shows some passion, LD ain’t going to play him. Hell, I sure wouldn’t.

Grow up and man up or GTF out of my gym.

Ken Strickland

February 16th, 2011
1:11 pm

ASTRO JOE-You made an issue of who Teague played against in the Philly gm, but you failed to factor in who he played with. You also said he looked very, very ordinary in the 14mins he played, but you made no mention of Bibby’s less than ordinary performance during that gm? In fact, couldn’t you have said this embarrassing loss was the result of the sorry performances of our starters in general?

Exactly what is motivating this obsession of singling out specific situations and making excuses to try and show that Teague shouldn’t be given more mins or be allowed to replace Bibby? What’s wrong with reducing the MPG, or outright replacing, a PG who’s so doggone limited, inconsistent, and past his prime he’s been unable to average double figure scoring over the last 2 seasons and has managed to score in double figures only 3times in the last 20+gms?

Ken Strickland

February 16th, 2011
1:45 pm

KWOODEN-Bibby is the veteran player, not Teague. With little support, and with limited mins and opportunities, Teague is expect to come off the bench, without fail, and instanteously change the tempo, become aggressive and penetrate, but make no mistakes, score, and play flawless DEF, which are expectations that’s not required of Bibby. I mean come on, some of you whine, b!tch and come up with all sorts of lame excuses in support of LDrew’s continued punishment of Teague, by giving him his version of the WOODY TREATMENT.

By the same token, Bibby get’s a total pass, even though he hasn’t done any of the things that’s expected of Teague in almost 2yrs. In fact, he gets rewarded by LDrew(30MPG), and receives unlimited support and receives unlimited excuses for his OFF/DEF limitations, inconsistency, and low production, from his ardent admirers. WHERE’S THE LOGIC?

Astro Joe

February 16th, 2011
1:46 pm

Strickland, sorry but I live in the real world. In the real world, someone who has 8+ years of proven experience performing at a high level has far less to prove than someone still wet behind their ears. If you think that a proven sales exec at Xerox is the same as a new college hire at Xerox, then you are sadly mistaken. If you think that a rookie QB in the NFL that texts pictures of himself to female NFL employees will receive the same consequence as a 3X MVP, then you are smoking something. And if you think that Bibby has as much to prove as Teague, well you may want to go purchase a clue from the real world store in downtown Atlanta. Bibby is earning the playing time, Teague (maybe) wants it… so who needs to run faster the guy ahead or the guy behind?

Astro Joe

February 16th, 2011
1:56 pm

Gearon is scheduled to join John Kincade later this afternoon to discuss the Thrashers situation. Kincade is the most vocal Thrashers fan in the local media, so it will be interesting to see how he handles the interview. This sounds more like some fan “CYA” as opposed to looking to spread the word amongst local investors. Hard to believe that they couldn’t communicate urgency within the narrow world of potential invetors.

http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-thrashers/owner-sense-of-urgency-840692.html

ATLSN

February 16th, 2011
2:40 pm

If you’re an Atlanta/Georgia Sports fan and want to talk with other fans, check out our NEW message board.

http://www.atlsportsnation.com/forum

We have team forums for the Falcons, Bulldogs, Hawks, Braves, Yellow Jackets, Thrashers, etc. Please register and post! Be apart of a huge site in the early days of existence. See ya there! We’re looking for posters, moderators, bloggers/writers. Join up if interested.

niremetal

February 16th, 2011
3:18 pm

Astro,

The NFL was retarded to grant Atlanta a NHL franchise in the first place, ASG was retarded to buy the team, and any investor would be retarded to pour money into. Every effort to put a NHL franchise in the southeast has resulted in franchises that hemorrhage money. I’m still laughing at the NHL’s “if you build it, they will come” strategy in putting teams in Atlanta, Nashville, Tampa Bay, Miami, Raleigh, and Phoenix. All of them have been miserable financial failures. It was the single worst leaguewide marketing decision in the history of pro sports because it has placed the long-term financial viability of the entire league at risk.

Astro Joe

February 16th, 2011
4:21 pm

nire, good point. But I still feel for the fans who are likely looking at the beginning of the end for their local hockey team. It was very poorly run, with a GM more heavily criticized than even BK keeping his job indefinitely… until he was actually promoted. One playoff appearance in the life of the team (and swept away in that series). They finally appear to have a solid foundation and management team in place and the ASG place a For Sale sign in the yard. I’m not doubting the challenge of making money on hockey, but the ASG did a piss-poor job of managing those things they did control.

kwooden

February 16th, 2011
5:03 pm

Ken, you can put me on the record for saying Teague should start. (Tonight if possible!) But from what I’ve seen the only way he’s going to get any time, is by playing good defense. Period!

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
6:16 pm

Ken,

I’m a Teague fan, and I think Bibby’s minutes need to be reduced.

But the issue with teague is he does not make enough positive plays to justify his mistakes. If he made 2 bad plays, and then made 2 good plays, LD might leave him out there more often.

But LD feels like he doesnt know what to expect from Teague, and he doesnt want to take the chance to find out. I dont agree with his strategy at times…but I understand it.

Ken Strickland

February 16th, 2011
6:51 pm

ASTRO JOE-What Bibby did in the past only proves how good he WAS IN THE PAST. What he’s done over the last 2 seasons proves he needs to either be replaced as a starter, have his mins reduced, or both, because he sure as hell hasn’t come anywhere close to replicating any of those past accomplishments over the last 2 seasons.

Based on your extremely flawed and biased way of thinking, we might as well bring Magic Johnson out of retirement to resolve our PG issues. After all, in his award winning career didn’t he prove to be one of the very best PG’s ever, which means we can COMPLETELY IGNORE the fact he’s now old, slow, unathletic, can no longer penetrate and break down DEF’s, lead fast breaks, rebound or play DEF.

You claim to live in the real world, yet you somehow see some kind of logic in comparing the requirements of a corporate exec to that of a NBA PG. I agree that Bibby doesn’t have much to prove, because if he did he’d fall flat on his face, which isn’t far from what he’s been doing for almost 2yrs.

And to answer your last question about who needs to run faster, the guy ahead or the guy behind.
1-If the guy behind wants to catchup and pass the one ahead, he’s the one that needs to run faster.
2-If the guy behind starts running faster and catching up, then the guy ahead needs to run faster if he whats to maintain his lead and prevent the one behind from over taking him.
You see, it’s all about perspective, the situation, and what you’re looking to accomplish.

Ken Strickland

February 16th, 2011
7:10 pm

KWOODEN-I owe you an apology, because I obviously misunderstood what you were saying.
OBRIEN-I’m fully aware of youR stance on the Teague/Bibby issue. What I don’t understand is LDrew’s logic towards Bibby and Teague, nor the logic of those defending and making excuses for Bibby and against Teague. Am I suppose to see some kind of logic in someone saying they can’t take a chance on giving Teague a chance of show what he can do, thus giving themselves an opportunity to find out what Teague can do, because they don’t yet know what he can do?

Yet, they have no trouble whatsoever relying on an over the hill PG who’s managed to prove for almost 2yrs that he sure as hell can’t do any of the things they claim they’re not sure Teague can do, as well as none of the things they know Teague can do. WHERE’S THE DAMNED LOGIC?

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
7:30 pm

And the Teague saga continues. I have to admit, some of the arguments are…humorous…

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
7:38 pm

Ken ,

Clearly you know something the entire organization does not know. The coach has no brains, his boss has no brains, and the boss above that has no brains. Now all we need is some feedback from the team, showing that Teague is an abused and misunderstood creature.

…crickets…crickets…crickets….

Melvin

February 16th, 2011
7:38 pm

I wouldn’t mind Session…

“The Hawks are looking for guard help, and sources say they may be interested in the Cavs’ Ramon Sessions. The feeling among rival execs is that the Hawks may be willing to spend up to or perhaps even a bit beyond the luxury-tax threshold if there’s a deal that would significantly improve their chances in a playoff series with Boston, Orlando or Miami. CBSSports.com”

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
7:46 pm

Melvin ,

Good to see you, fellow “Marvin Hater” :twisted:

Sorry, couldn’t resist…

Thanks for the link. At least we know they’re “looking around.”

I wouldn’t mind Sessions either, but he’s not Option A, and I also don’t see how he gets us over the hump. Maybe against Orlando, who we know how to beat. Maybe even against Miami. Maybe . But Boston? Hmmm.

If I had it my way, we’d be getting Kirk Hinrich somehow.

Melvin

February 16th, 2011
7:53 pm

Asusual, Hawks come out shooting jumpshots. The Knicks are giving them the angles to drive the ball to the rim but the Hawks rather settle for the jumpers..

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
7:55 pm

Whatever happened to LD’s comment about Josh establishing himself inside first? That has not happened this game. he already has 3 jumpers (all misses).

Josh is playing well on defense, but he needs to realize his jumper isnt falling, so he should go inside. Plus he is playing PF, so he should spend less time on the perimeter…

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
7:56 pm

Big Ray, Melvin,

I doubt if this rumor came from the Hawks. 1) Rick Sund is not the type of GM to put his business out there and 2) Hawks have no intention of adding another PG or adding salary next year (imo).

However, if they were serious about adding another PG, then trading Mo ($2.5 mil) and Teague ($1.5 mil) for Sessions ($3.9 mil) still keeps them under the luxury tax for this season.

Next season, Sessions makes $4.25 mil, so they would have to figure out a way to work him in. But after next year, his contract is a team option. And if they have Sessions next year, they can consider trading Bibby and his $6.2 mil salary for next season.

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
8:00 pm

That looked like a bad call on Al.

Meanwhile, Marvin knocks down the open 3. And thats what we need from him. Its not about ppg, its about making the open shot, especially when its a shot to stop the other team’s run…

Melvin

February 16th, 2011
8:00 pm

Oh my, The Rich (Lakers) gets Richer…

“While exact numbers aren’t generally disclosed, the Lakers were bringing in $30 million a year from Fox Sports and an additional amount from KCAL. That number would jump to $150 million a year, perhaps a $100 million boost in annual revenue.

Worried about the team’s current $110 million player budget (including luxury tax)? That’d be covered without a single fan buying a ticket.”

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=18787

Melvin

February 16th, 2011
8:03 pm

I’m still here Big Ray. And Hinrich is my first pick as well…

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
8:05 pm

I’m glad the Hawks were motivated by Amare’s comments. Otherwise, I dont know what the score would have been (althoug we are down by 7).

Melvin

February 16th, 2011
8:05 pm

OB,

Although the Hawks may be tight lip about trade talks doesnt mean the other party has to be…

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
8:08 pm

Mo Evans looks goo, with 5 points already. Time to trade him while his value is at its highest :smile:

And we didnt even get to 20 points, and we had no FTs. Down 7.

Melvin

February 16th, 2011
8:08 pm

What do you know, the Hawks fail to score 20pts in a qtr again….

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
8:13 pm

Knicks bench outperforming us. Great.

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
8:16 pm

What is ZaZa doing out there lol. Man, he sucks.

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
8:16 pm

O’brien ,

Haven’t you seen LD’s more recent comments? He says he and Josh will continue to battle over what shots to take when. That comment alone made me want to call him a quitter. I mean, the man basically said that it’s in the script. But JJ says they will go out and play however LD wants them to play. Man….this is where I have a major, major issue with Larry Drew. Because that’s BS. He’s conceded that Josh will do as he wants, but they’ll “continue to argue about it.”

Unacceptable. Is it too late to get Dwayne Casey?

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
8:17 pm

nire,

Are you sure you wouldnt take Toney Douglas as a backup PG? I think his defense is better than Bibby and Teague combined…

Melvin

February 16th, 2011
8:17 pm

Tonite’s game need to be ZaZa last in a Hawks uniform….

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
8:18 pm

Big Ray,

Exactly. Who is the coach, and who is the player?

And in 8 minutes, 30 seconds of PT, Jamal is -17.

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
8:19 pm

Tell me again how Zaza is one of the better backup centers in the game? No wait…. don’t tell me. I can’t figure out how he keeps getting into these ruts he gets into. I mean, dude has some of the worst cases of butter fingers I’ve seen.

Seriously, we function better when we can get him involved on the offensive end. But we can’t do that when he’s fumbling passes and getting blocked!

Meanwhile, the Knicks bench (yes, all bench players in the game) is clowning us. They’ve extended the lead.

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
8:20 pm

So we come out of a timeout, and the play was to get JJ an open 3 pointer?

Is that really the shot we want?

Melvin

February 16th, 2011
8:23 pm

Bibby is smoking from 3pt line.

Melvin

February 16th, 2011
8:24 pm

Mo/ZaZa for Session/Ryan Hollins…

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
8:25 pm

I’m glad Bibby is making his shots.

The Knicks will let the Hawks back into the game. Hawks just need to stay patient on offense, and turn up the defense…

Melvin,

I would do that trade in a minute. I would even throw in Teague

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
8:29 pm

O’brien ,

Yep. Amazing that the League’s worst starting point guard is the main reason why we aren’t down by 20 points….

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
8:31 pm

Hawks are down 7, and Nique said thats right where the Hawks want to be?

Wouldnt the Hawks want to be ahead Nique?

Melvin

February 16th, 2011
8:35 pm

OB,

Cavs already have 3 PGs (Mo,Gibson,Harris), I doubt if they want another in return.

Astro Joe

February 16th, 2011
8:42 pm

Zaza needs to go back to those “acne-producing” vitamins. Maybe he should give Mayo a call after the game.

niremetal

February 16th, 2011
8:43 pm

O’B,

How do we get Douglas? If he were a free agent, I could see the sense, but he’s not, and I’m not willing to give up more than Mo for him. And the Knicks don’t make that deal.

Didn’t catch the first quarter, but the bench did it’s thing in the second quarter. *sigh*

Zaza used to be one of the 2-3 best backups in the league. He’s still just 27, but now he can’t make an open layup many nights. What the hell happened?

Astro Joe

February 16th, 2011
8:45 pm

If Zaza is 27 then I am really Warren Buffet.

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
8:46 pm

Played ‘em even in the second quarter. Marvin has shown up, Josh is struggling, and we’re not going through Al enough.

Too many jumpers (Hawks cliche?)

Felton playing well against us, of course.

It must be nice to have a rookie come off the bench and give you 7 rebounds. We don’t draft guys like that.

The good news is we trimmed it down to 7. But if the second half doesn’t start well, I see another loss coming.

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
8:58 pm

Meanwhile, halftime locker room looks like this:

LD : “Guys, we need to take it to the hole. Stop with the jumpers!”

Josh Smith: “I disagree, Coach.”

LD : “We’ll argue about this later.”

Josh Smith: “Okay, I can roll with that.”

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
8:59 pm

nire,

I dont think we can trade for him either. but you made a comment a few days ago that you weren;t really a fan of his (or that he hasnt played well for the Knicks).

The Knicks will let the Hawks back into it. Can we take advantage?

One missed 3 by Marvin, One made 3 by the Knicks. A 6 point swing.

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
9:00 pm

Bi Ray,

First 3 shots of the quarter from the Hawks are 3 jumpers outside the paint…

Astro Joe

February 16th, 2011
9:00 pm

Come on Al, start making shots.

niremetal

February 16th, 2011
9:04 pm

Wow. Just terrible defense by Josh on Amare, but he’s more concerned with b!tching about the (admittedly terrible) foul call.

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
9:04 pm

Smith is heating up, Marvin’s going strong.

Not getting a lot out of our two all-stars, however. Not good. Wrong time to crap out on your team.

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
9:04 pm

Landry Field was drafted 9th. in the second round.

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
9:06 pm

What is Josh complaining about? That was a foul right infront of the ref…

I wonder what the Hawks percentage of made technical FTs is. I feel like we miss too many of them.

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
9:06 pm

O’brien ,

Yeah. A “different voice” my arse. Team is doing the same stuff.

Meanwhile, the Knicks’ #1 scoring option is delivering.

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
9:07 pm

Josh is being Josh.

“We’ll argue about it later.”

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
9:10 pm

If the hawks lose this game, the Knicks will only be 5 games behind them in the loss column. And with a 5 game road trip after the AS break, anything can happen…

niremetal

February 16th, 2011
9:11 pm

Ray,

You’ll have to enlighten me. JJ put in 8-4-4 (on 4-9 shooting) going into halftime after having to chase Felton around for 20 minutes. Adjusted for a full game, that’s below average scoring but above average boards and assists. He seemed to be doing his level best at both ends. How is he crapping out?

Melvin

February 16th, 2011
9:11 pm

Bibby gave us all he had in the 2nd qtr…

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
9:12 pm

O’brien ,

I hate to be a “grass is greener” type of guy, but…

It’s like this, though: would Landry Fields have a chance at doing anything on our team? No, probably not. He would have the same issues Jordan Crawford faces. In the case of JJ, I have no complaints. But by now we know the benefits of Jamal Crawford, as well as the drawbacks. He can help you to a 50 win season. But he can’t do anymore than that (last year’s playoffs are mucho proof of that), and as long as he’s here, I don’t think any young backcourt player short of a lottery pick or otherwise breakout star will have much of a chance at impacting the game on any sort of consistent level.

And that is NOT me making excuses for Teague. I wonder how Jordan Crawford would fare in Fields’ place, in NY? Just curious.

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
9:13 pm

In 9 minutes, Jamal has no points, no rebounds, no assists, 1 foul.

He has not played well since LD started playing him extended minutes at the backup PG spot…

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
9:15 pm

Nire ,

You forgot Horford.

Are you happy with our two all-star players putting up a whopping 6-16 shooting, 14 total points, and 10 rebounds (with 6 assists) by halftime? I’m not. Maybe I wouldn’t complain so much if we weren’t getting manhandled by the Knicks.

niremetal

February 16th, 2011
9:15 pm

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
9:15 pm

Hawks are falling in love with the jumper again…

niremetal

February 16th, 2011
9:17 pm

Ray,

I agree. But Josh, Jamal, and (oh, I don’t know) our bench seemed to me to be as big or bigger culprits.

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
9:17 pm

Hawks are falling in love with the jumper again…

Maybe thats why LD called the timeout. i wonder what his play call will be out of the timeout?

I bet its another jumper

Astro Joe

February 16th, 2011
9:18 pm

I know that the Hawks aren;t looking great tonight, but you have to know that the Knicks will give them another run (or two) before this game is over. I wouldn’t assume that the Knicks won’t open the door for the Hawks.

niremetal

February 16th, 2011
9:19 pm

Another thing: 7 of JJ’s 8 first half shots were in the paint. I guess I just have a tough time faulting the only guy who seemed to be at least trying not to settle for jumpers.

Melvin

February 16th, 2011
9:20 pm

I hope this is the last game we see this Hawks roster intact…

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
9:20 pm

And it’s not like the bench did it all to us. They came in with the starters already being down in the scoring column. The bench just didn’t make it any better.

We’re in a self-made funk. Knicks up by 14. Horford has added 3 rebounds since halftime. JJ has added 3 points and a board. We could use more from those two guys.

Certain a little less “J-Smoove” on the offensive end. Either J-Smash or cut it out. The problem is, we have no bench options. Powell has turned into a dog, and not the kind that you would wish to associate Teague with.

niremetal

February 16th, 2011
9:20 pm

Hawks seem to at least be hustling more coming out of the timeout.

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
9:21 pm

Jamal is 1-7 tonight in 14 minutes, with no points, no assists, no rebounds.

Why not give Jordan a few minutes of PT?

Melvin

February 16th, 2011
9:21 pm

Looks like another game our backup center wll get 2nd half DNP…

Astro Joe

February 16th, 2011
9:22 pm

Horrible shot by Jamal.

niremetal

February 16th, 2011
9:23 pm

Dear Jamal,

Going 2-for-1 at the end of a quarter is nice. But if the shot you take in the effort is a fadeaway baseline jumper taken slightly behind the basket and contested by 2 guys, it’s probably not worth it.

kthxbai

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
9:23 pm

Jamal has 2 points. My bad

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
9:24 pm

Nire ,

I agree, JJ has been trying harder to get to the hole. I wish he’d get more foul calls, but that’s a foolish wish.

Josh….I don’t even want to talk about it. Larry Drew probably would like to grow some hair just so he can pull it out. But he keeps conceding the game of tug of war with Josh. Team captain my arse…

Meanwhile,

13 shots for Josh, only 9 for Al. I don’t even want to see Jamal on the court.

And the League’s worst starting pg has hit 4 treys.

Knicks keep right on rolling.

Melvin

February 16th, 2011
9:24 pm

Iso Marvin against a center and he gets strip of the ball…

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
9:25 pm

O’brien ,

JC2 is listed as inactive (don’t know why). Your best bet for a backcourt change is the superhero in waiting….the mild-mannered Jeff Teague.

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
9:25 pm

O’brien ,

JC2 is listed as inactive (don’t know why). Your best bet for a backcourt change is the superhero in waiting….the mild-mannered Jeff Teague.

Astro Joe

February 16th, 2011
9:25 pm

How much more time do you give Jamal to get it together tonight? Hawks obviously need an offensive spark in the 4th quarter. I say give him 2-3 minutes and then send him to the bench if he isn’t shooting well.

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
9:29 pm

Jamal –

Went on a nice 5 game streak in early January. Slowed right down for two games, and then went on a less prolific, but effective streak for 4 more games. Since then, only 1 good game in his last 8.

The really bad news? He continues to average 30 mpg regardless…

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
9:30 pm

Astro Joe ,

So very true. Because you only have him in there to score. If he’s not doing that, he’s really not doing anything for you. It sure ain’t defense or getting the offense to run right and getting the ball to the right guys at the right times.

Astro Joe

February 16th, 2011
9:34 pm

Big Ray, but he will never score from the bench. i think that is a tough call for a head coach, especially when the “instant scoring” options are limited. While the new offense creates more movement, I struggle to say that it is unstoppable, explosive or outstanding. So without a “hot” player, this team struggles to produce 90 points in many games. We’re not likely going to hit 90 against a bad defensive team tonight. Somehow being less predictable hasn;t translated into producing more points.

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
9:35 pm

Jamal has 5 points, so maybe he is heating up. And he may have gotten fouled right there…

niremetal

February 16th, 2011
9:35 pm

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
9:35 pm

Josh is 6-16, but he continues to take jumpers…SMH

Astro Joe

February 16th, 2011
9:36 pm

I’m not sure that Josh’s 16 FGAs and 4 boards will result in a D’Antoni All-Star vote next year.

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
9:38 pm

Yeesh. I’m just gonna go ahead and call this one:

1. Barring a monster effort for the remainder of the 4th quarter, Hawks lose this one by no less than 12 points, unless of course the Knicks empty the bench in the last 3-5 minutes. They won’t. They want this win.

2. Teague plays in the last minute and a half. Maybe the last two minutes. He won’t do much in this amount of time.

3. Al will get a double double.

4. Joe finishes with less than 20 points for the fourth straight game. Maybe less than 15 points, even.

5. Pathetic quotes after the game.

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
9:40 pm

AJ ,

Unfortunately, this has proven to be true. I’m not sure I blame the offensive scheme, though. Or rather, I can’t give the scheme all or even majority of the blame.

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
9:40 pm

Big Ray,

Maybe Josh will lead the hawks comeback, by going 4-6 down the strecth (from 3)…

Melvin

February 16th, 2011
9:42 pm

Take that Amare….LOL

niremetal

February 16th, 2011
9:42 pm

I hope they lose ugly. Maybe that’ll convince the front office to do something. Now.

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
9:43 pm

Ok Al. You’re down 14. I dont think you should be telling the crowd to hush lol. And you only have 10 points.

niremetal

February 16th, 2011
9:43 pm

JJ goes off the floor hurt, and that’ll do it.

Melvin

February 16th, 2011
9:44 pm

No matter who Bibby guards, they will find him on defense and attack…

Ray

February 16th, 2011
9:44 pm

You know LD is seriously just beginning to remind me of Woody except he has the offense part of what Woody missed.

In all honesty who plays on this team I know there is the starting 5 of bibby, joe, williams, smith, and horford(not now) then there is Jamal, Collins, and Evans. That makes 8 out of 15 we know Sy is in D-league so now it’s like 8 out of 14.

Why I’m saying that cause that’s how deep the rotation seems to go just like Mike Woodson. We always say things about Teague, JC2(sometimes he’s just a rook), Zaza, Powell, and Thomas, but you know thinking about don’t ever get to see much of them to pass a really good judgement.

Why doesn’t LD play the end of the bench against the sorriest teams(Cavs, Kings, T-wolves, and Wizards). Maybe if he did they might have something to look forward too.

I understand you got to play tough even in garbage time, but come on man it’s garbage time if I were out there I wouldn’t be to happy about it either. Put it this way have you been happy taking out the trash any day? With Teague I feel like he doesn’t play hard because he knows “this is garbage time it doesn’t mean nothing”. Fans are leaving and everything the heat of the moments are gone all that stuff. So why try hard.

niremetal

February 16th, 2011
9:44 pm

Horford finally scores on a strong move and then gets T’d up for b!tching about not getting a foul call.

*sigh*

CFTSOC

niremetal

February 16th, 2011
9:46 pm

Ha – funny to see Marvin playing peacemaker and pulling Felton away from Horford after last time.

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
9:46 pm

That’s probably it for Joe. Now Jamal will get to finish the game out, pathetic performance and all.

Al gets his double double, but loses bragging rights tonight. Amare has 23 and 6 as the team’s #1 option. Yeah, so what. Galinari, Chandler, Felton, and Fields is what was killing us. Amare’s 23 points weren’t all that damaging.

Astro Joe

February 16th, 2011
9:46 pm

Big Ray, we’re in the bottom third in scoring and lately have struggled mightily to produce points. We’re likely looking at another 40 point 2nd half tonight, and this ain’t the Celtics defense either.

Melvin

February 16th, 2011
9:47 pm

Why let Jamal shoot the Tech… He’s been off all night…

niremetal

February 16th, 2011
9:47 pm

Powell just showed more of a willingness to play physical on one play in garbage time than the rest of the frontcourt showed in the rest of the game.

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
9:48 pm

Good rebound and speed by Teague. That is what he needs to do everytime!

but he tends to play better in blowouts…

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
9:50 pm

Ray ,

I understand what you’re saying. But when you are at the end of the bench, you try hard because one day you might be moving, and you’d like another job. Teague could very easily find himself in the same position Acie Law is now in. Garbage time or not, your only resume is how hard you try when you do get playing time. Teague is guaranteed nothing beyond the third year of his rookie contract (next year). Fail to give anybody a reason to employ you, and you’ll be unemployed rather quickly.

I’m not saying Teague has no future in this league, I’m saying he has yet to secure that future. Nobody is going to take “well, coach wouldn’t play me” as an excuse for looking unmotivated on the floor.

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
9:52 pm

Ok. So whats LD’s excuses going to be in his post game talk?

No energy? No intensity? bad shot selection?

Astro Joe

February 16th, 2011
9:53 pm

Good for Teague, nice 3 ball.

Astro Joe

February 16th, 2011
9:54 pm

45 point half, my bad.

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
9:55 pm

Hawks will barely get a mention on Sportscenter and in the media tomorrow.

Why? because the Lakers are down 10 to the Cavaliers, with 2 minutes to go.

Melvin

February 16th, 2011
9:55 pm

Again, I hope this was the last game we see this Hawks roster intact…

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
9:56 pm

AJ ,

I wish I had the answer. I see a lot of actions that conflict with statements. I hear about playing Josh more on the block, but instead I see a lot more jumpers.

Less noise is made about Al in this category because he shoots a higher percentage and is more efficient. But we don’t use him on the block a lot, either. What are his two go-to moves around the basket?

JJ’s early struggles and Jamal and Bibby’s fall-offs haven’t helped. Even Marvin struggled for a while there.

All I’m saying is that it can’t just be Drew’s non-Princeton offense. But I’m also saying that this offensive scheme hasn’t worked. But then, I’m also not seeing the “true” application of it, maybe? Who the hell knows, but it ain’t working. And it would be less of an issue if we didn’t have such a stock of scoring talent, and played a lot better defense.

Effectively, the lack of defense means the offense has to play off of itself. So often, good defense helps stimulate the offense (as you well know). Instead, our offense has to feed on itself. So when the offense struggles, it typically only gets worse.

Ken Strickland

February 16th, 2011
9:56 pm

BIG RAY-Don’t even try to go there with that approach. LDrew acknowledged as recently as Monday that he felt Teague had the potential and ability to be a very good PG, so why would you try to make it appear as if I’m out on an island with that opinion of Teague? You’re watching this gm, and you see what happens when our shots aren’t falling. We refuse to utilize a PG that can do to the opposition what they do to us, and that’s penetrate and fiinish or dish.

We’re a one dimensional team with a potential option we’re refusing to utilize. And just to put your rediculous assumption that everyone in MGT shares the same negative opinion of Teague, consider this. When Woodson was let go, mgt listed his refusal to play and develop Teague as one of their complaints. Since MGT disagreed with Woodson’s mishanding of Teague during the season, but didn’t interfer or voice their feelings on the matter, why would you ASS-U-ME they’d interfer with the way he’s been screwed so far this yr by LDrew?

Ken Strickland

February 16th, 2011
9:58 pm

BIG RAY-my response to your statement to me got eaten by the blog monster.

niremetal

February 16th, 2011
9:59 pm

This team has too many bad habits and they’ve been at them so long that no one is going to convince anyone else to change.

CFTSOC

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
10:00 pm

Teague looked good. Of course, there was no pressure in garbage time. Hate to add the caveate, but it would be disingenuous not to.

Marvin arguably has the best game for the Hawks.

The League’s worst starting point guard was lights out from the perimeter. 5 of his last 7 games have been decent-to-good.

Joe leaves with a possible injury. Great.

Management needs to make a move. A risky one, probably. Seriously. But will they?

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
10:04 pm

Ken ,

I shall sally forth to do battle with the scurvy knave of a blog monster and free thy post. And then I gotta go. :)

niremetal

February 16th, 2011
10:05 pm

I remember being vaguely impressed by Powell during the first half-dozen or so games of the year. Can’t remember whether it was a lack of minutes or a lack of decent play that made that thought go away.

Melvin

February 16th, 2011
10:07 pm

Nire,

Did you see the link below I posted at 8pm? How in the heck are the smaller market teams are suppose to be competitive when you have a team like the Lakers getting this type of revenue and not have to share it… SMH

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=18787

O'Brien

February 16th, 2011
10:08 pm

nire,

I made the analogy of the Hawks being like a couple who has been married for 10 years. Rather than trying to change their spouse, they just accept each other’s faults, and do their best to work around it.

Jamal has really struggled. I think most of his struggles began when LD started playing him extended minutes at backup PG, because he has a hard time running the offense AND knowing when to take his shot (imo).

I hope he gets better after the AS break, because he is like Bibby…very one dimensional. So if he is not making shots, he is useless.

Props to Bibby and Marvin tonight.

And I wish Josh wouldnt take that many jumpers. While LD continues to talk about settling…

Ken Strickland

February 16th, 2011
10:11 pm

Once again we see how effective a team can be with a PG that:
1-plays DEF
2-penetrates and dishes or finishes
3-does more than shoot 3’s.
4-actually runs the OFF and get’s everyone involved, especially those who are producing
5-changes the tempo of the gm when needed
6-changes the teams approach when needed
7-carries his own on OFF or DEF without the need for gimmicks and compensations, etc, etc, etc.

With Jamal struggling, AND JAMAL IS NOT A PG, we can’t overcome the OFF and DEF liabilities he and Bibby present, expecially when they’re on the floor at the same time. But then again, I must be totally wrong about everything, since management hasn’t fired LDrew or told him what they feel he should do, or in general interferred with the way he’s running the team.

niremetal

February 16th, 2011
10:13 pm

Melvin,

Yeah, I saw. I shook my head too. That’s insane. Add to it the fact that they still make huge money of memorabilia sales from their teams in the past and the fact that they play in one of the biggest markets in the world…yeah. It’s crazy.

The NFL model is the one every league should follow. But the big market teams in other sports have too much to lose to accept such a system.

O’B,

Good analogy.

kwooden

February 16th, 2011
10:13 pm

O’Brien, you wrote the post before I could. LD and the rest of the coaches are asking Jamal to be someone he’s not because they want to keep the starters in the game. Jamal is a scoring machine and they should be trying to get him in rhythm and not having him look for open shooters.

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
10:14 pm

Ken ,

It’s called rhetoric and humor. I recall quite clearly everything Drew said about Teague (preseason, during season, etc). I also recall that one of the management criticisms of Woody was the fact that Teague got the “rookie treatment.”

But you talked about logic in that post. Tell me, what logic explains the fact that Teague is being “underutilized” by the very guy that the ASG/Sund promoted in place of Woody, the very same guy they said was underutilizing Teague? Don’t you find this the slightest bit odd?

So if we’re talking about logic, WHY is it that Drew keeps saying Teague has all this potential, but he WON’T play him? Is Drew being told to play Teague? Is he refusing to do so? Why does he still have a job, if he’s doing the exact same things his predecessor was allowed to walk away for? Where’s the logic? Rumors and write ups (including MC’s articles) suggest the Hawks are looking for another pg.

What’s going on here? If Drew is the big bad bully, then somebody is allowing this mistreatment and mishandling. Or, is there a slight smidgen of a possibility that the second year pg is just a teeny, weeny part of the problem? I find it odd that while everybody tiptoes around the subject of Mike Bibby’s well documented issues, NOBODY out there is championing Teague as the obvious solution.

See? Rhetoric. It’s meant to elicit more thought, not make you get all pissy because somebody isn’t openly agreeing with everything you’re saying.

kwooden

February 16th, 2011
10:21 pm

I didn’t see any of this game, but from listening on the radio Marvin was working hard and Bibby’s definitely found his shot again. But we still got beat badly and couldn’t score enough points, so it really didn’t matter! I would take Sessions, even though I never thought he was that good. We need someone that can backup Bibby, because Mike isn’t going to make it to the Playoffs in one piece!

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
10:23 pm

But then again, I must be totally wrong about everything, since management hasn’t fired LDrew or told him what they feel he should do, or in general interferred with the way he’s running the team.

Ken , it has never been about whether you are wrong or right. Do you make decisions within the Hawks organization?

Once again we see how effective a team can be with a PG that:
1-plays DEF
2-penetrates and dishes or finishes
3-does more than shoot 3’s.
4-actually runs the OFF and get’s everyone involved, especially those who are producing
5-changes the tempo of the gm when needed
6-changes the teams approach when needed
7-carries his own on OFF or DEF without the need for gimmicks and compensations, etc, etc, etc.

Yeah, you’re talking about Raymond Felton. But do those 7 points describe Jeff Teague? Like Astro Joe said, we’d like to see Teague start just for the sake of seeing what he can do. I mean, what the heck, right?

But I don’t see Teague as a solution just yet. He’s an option, but not necessarily a solution. That’s where the biggest disagreement comes from, I think. I want to see Teague on the floor more than Drew puts him there, but I am anything but convinced that he is the answer to our problems. Seems to me that if he was, somebody would know that.

Apparently, nobody knows that. Maybe because there just ain’t any proof?

Melvin

February 16th, 2011
10:23 pm

I would love to see the Hawks addd a player or two that has a mentality to attack the basket first. I’m tired of guys shooting jumper after jumper…. In the words of Bill Walton, “take it to the hole strong big fella”…

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
10:25 pm

kwooden ,

Good points. I never was a huge fan of using Jamal as a pg, but where I have an issue with LD is how he says Jordan Crawford simply is not a pg , and won’t be used as one. Why the hell not, when he’s using JC1 as a pg all the time, with it glaringly clear that he is NOT a pg?

But…you say we need a backup who can play significant minutes in place of Bibby (limit Bibby to less than 25 mpg, I’m guessing). Ken Strickland thinks Jeff Teague is that guy. What do you think?

doc

February 16th, 2011
10:28 pm

ob after the season ended i suggested either farmar or felto should be our goal this past summer along with al jefferson. only three names, all three available and suggested josh should be bait for one of them.

doc

February 16th, 2011
10:29 pm

would love to have gotten felton somehow.

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
10:29 pm

Cavs beat Lakers.

Kobe goes “Jamal”, shooting 8 of 24 and ends up with 17 points and 7 turnovers. Pau Gasol scores 30 on 8 of 15 shooting (and hits 14 of 14 from the line).

Ramon Sessions comes off the bench to score 32 points and dish out 8 assists for the Cavs. 9 of 16 shooting, 13 of 14 from the charity stripe. Gee, I think he drove the ball to the hole just a little bit :twisted:

Big Ray

February 16th, 2011
10:32 pm

Stir the pot a bit…Sessions in the month of February….

Date Opponent Result MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A OFF DEF REB AST STL BLK TO PF PTS
Regular
Feb 13 vs. WAS L 100 – 115 25 5 – 8 0 – 0 4 – 5 0 4 4 6 3 1 2 1 14
Feb 11 vs. LAC W 126 – 119 26 3 – 6 0 – 0 6 – 7 1 1 2 5 0 0 2 1 12
Feb 09 vs. DET L 94 – 103 43 7 – 11 0 – 0 6 – 8 0 6 6 12 5 0 3 4 20
Feb 07 @ DAL L 96 – 99 40 6 – 12 0 – 0 7 – 7 1 5 6 13 2 0 2 0 19
Feb 05 vs. POR L 105 – 111 33 7 – 11 0 – 1 1 – 2 1 5 6 7 1 0 2 1 15
Feb 04 @ MEM L 105 – 112 41 8 – 13 0 – 0 4 – 4 2 2 4 11 1 1 3 2 20
Feb 02 vs. IND L 112 – 117 41 6 – 10 0 – 0 13 – 14 0 1 1 9 1 1 3 2 25

doc

February 16th, 2011
10:35 pm

nire too funny man. i made that same analogy last summer and agan lawt week.

niremetal

February 16th, 2011
10:36 pm

Ray,

Sessions has had a few of these good spurts for bad teams during his career. He hasn’t played well consistently, though, and Synergy’s latest release which came out yesterday showed that he was one of the league’s 5 worst defenders. Bibby wasn’t, btw.

I view it as a bad thing that Sessions is having a good Feb. It probably drove up his asking price. Bibby’s also finally strung together consecutive good games. That might make give the front office the excuse it needs to say “we’re ok at PG.” *sigh*

niremetal

February 16th, 2011
10:37 pm

Doc,

I know I heard the analogy before, but couldn’t remember where. Use more punctuation and maybe I’ll remember your cute analogies more clearly ;)

kwooden

February 16th, 2011
10:59 pm

As stated earlier, I believe Teague should start and get 15-20 minutes per game. I actually think you won’t know if he’s the answer either way by the end of the season. Take Eric Maynor for example, Utah drafted him and played him between 15-20 min and then traded him away. OKC has been playing him about the same amount of time and he’s avg about 5pt and 2 assists.
Is Eric a quality starting PG? We don’t know.
Is he a good backup? Probably, at least serviceable.

Is Jeff a quality starting PG or a serviceable backup? We don’t know!.

What we are looking for is a starting PG to replace Bibby now and the only way to get one of those is by drafting high(can’t happen!) or FA/trades. Collison, for example, got an opportunity to prove he’s a starting PG because of injury. Teague hasn’t had that opportunity. The only way to know if he’s a starting PG in this league is to start him! The only way to know if he’s a backup PG is to give him backup PG minutes (15-20)! That seems painfully obvious to me, I just don’t understand why paid basketball professionals do see it.

I believe Jeff is a serviceable backup PG, but baring a real mental shift he will never be a quality starting PG like Felton. My opinion comes from the few games I watched him in college against Maryland, he and the rest of his team weren’t finishers. They wasted their superior athletic talent. Especially James Johnson, I think he’s spent most of this season on the bench or the D-League.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 16th, 2011
11:12 pm

Orlando wins, Miami wins, Boston wins, New York wins, Chicago won yesterday, and the Hawks lose. Hawks are alone in 5th heading into the break.

I don’t know what’s more frustrating — a head coach who doesn’t have a plan (Woody) or a head coach with a good plan who does nothing to ensure that the plan gets executed on a consistent basis (LD).

Najeh Davenpoop

February 16th, 2011
11:17 pm

Aside from not holding the Hawks accountable when they predictably started getting jumper-happy (Smoove and Jamal being the worst offenders), LD made a key tactical error in the first quarter. The Hawks started the game with two successful post-ups by Al. Instead of continuing to feed him and attack Amare, they started running post ups for Joe instead. I understand the logic of wanting to post up Joe on Landry Fields and Danilo Gallinari, but in a game where Al was extra motivated to take it to Amare and was successful early, it was a major mistake to go away from him.

doc

February 16th, 2011
11:35 pm

ok, then, see if this, can, help you, out, a bit, there, nire. :-)

fyi good interview on 680 today with mike, jr. listen to the underlying anger over steve b and the lawyers tjat wrote up the vontract that broight th to their knees. i ssid way back then we were going to watch an ugly divorce and the proceedongs were hoing to hamstring the franchise for years. not that was so smart just a pragmatic long view of what tp expect. fans got caught in the middle like
children do. it seems to boil down to if they dont get onvestors soon something lie a sale is going yo happen most likely to the thrahers. hpnestly i havent kept up with the gibberish the last two years tiring of it and realizing it was a waste of time.

again gearon laid the ills of the franchise at belkins and the lawyers feet and essentially took no responsibility. not sure it is true just check it out.. would be interested in your views.

doc

February 16th, 2011
11:46 pm

Ken Strickland

February 16th, 2011
11:51 pm

BIG RAY-We’re of simular opinion when it comes to the under utilization of JTeague and the over utilization of MBibby. And I have no explaination for LDrew’s unwillingness to give Teague a chance to develop and show what he’s capable of. It certainly hasn’t been Bibby’s production over the last month and a half that’s kept him on the bench.

This team is starting to collapse, and asLDrew starts exhibiting some of Woodson’s ill advised habits, and making some of the same stupid decisions, the players seem to be starting a simular trend and tuning him out. I’ve come to the conclusion that we need someone from the outside to coach this team. We need someone who’s not afraid to make everyone earn there positions. When we need OFF, we keep utilizing the same OFF players that aren’t producing. When we need DEF, we keep utilizing the same OFF players that aren’t producing.

I guess LDrew identifies with Bibby because they both seem to be fading as the season progresses.

niremetal

February 17th, 2011
12:08 am

Doc,

I’m too tired to listen to that tonight and really just have burned out on discussing the ASG’s legal position. I really don’t buy into the idea that the lawsuits affected the Hawks on-court product. I don’t think the lawsuits led the Hawks to make bad draft picks and overinvest in this “core,” nor do I think that bringing in new investors will result in a different result (unless a different GM with a different outlook comes in).

The Hawks’ issues are just not the type of thing that an outside legal dispute could really affect without the Hawks risking the team being put under the conservatorship of the NBA (as was done with the Nats in baseball, the Coyotes in hockey, etc). The franchise agreements that NBA teams have keep the owners on a short leash with stuff like that, because the ability of the NBA to market the league both to sponsors and prospective owners is based on stability and continuity in the league’s front offices.

Anyway, I’m fed up with the front office, but it still has nothing to do with the lawsuits. Those interest me as a lawyer, but not as a fan.

Astro Joe

February 17th, 2011
12:26 am

nire, you don;t think that free agents were scared off after Speedy signed and Belkin filed an injunction to stop players from signing multi-year deals with the Hawks? Sure, it was overturned relatively quickly, but I would imagine that it “left a stain” with some players and agents. The remarkable thing is that we have yet to sign someone else’s free agent for more than 3 years & $3M per since that 2006 debacle. For a while, the Hawks operated as a team almost exclusively dependent on draft picks and trades to imrpove the team… we were essentially out of free agency from after Joe’s signing (and the initial divorce proceedings) and 2008 when Mo Evans signed. It certainly felt like a competitive disadvantage at the time.

Big Ray

February 17th, 2011
12:52 am

Ken ,

I agree. I thought having Larry Drew as the coach would be okay. I thought it would be better than it has been, but I also thought management would see that changing coaches wouldn’t and shouldn’t be their only significat “change.”

I was wrong about Drew being more effective (he isn’t), and I was wrong about management seeing the need to change up the core of this team.

It’s a sad day. And that has nothing to do with how wrong or right I was. It has everything to do with the reality of the situation.

Big Ray

February 17th, 2011
12:54 am

Nire ,

Session isn’t my champion by an means. But acquiring him qualifies as CFTSOC, right? Problem is, that isn’t significant enough change. The change must come within the starting six, I think (had to say that since Jamal plays as much as one or two of the starters).

Big Ray

February 17th, 2011
12:59 am

Meanwhile, to stir the Teague pot even harder, this from MC :

Nah….I’ll just wait for the next blog…

E43

February 17th, 2011
1:07 am

I think it’s very unfair to blame LD, Woody R.Sund and B.knight for this team’s short coming. ASTRO JOE made a very good point about free agency. You can’t attack this team about not going after free agents when truth be told it’s the free agents that have to want to come here. When have you ever heard the Kobe’s and LeBron’s talk about coming to Atlanta? Melo is out there thinking about playing for the Knicks and Nets…. THE KNICKS AND NETS!!!
Every few blogs, I always hear about people complaining about spending money on the hawks and they won’t get to the championship. I mean are you serious? Do you like basketball or not? That’s the real question. Just because your team doesn’t have a chance to win a championship SHOULDNT be the reason you watch hawk ball or not. What exactly do you want the hawks to do about Mike Bibby or the center position? Do you think teams are just going to hand you Christmas gifts of roster upgrades? Or would you like the hawks to dig deep and channel speedy Claxton again?
I’m a hawks fan. No excuses. I will come out and support my team whether or not I have 12 chairs to myself or have to squeeze in just to watch. That “not a championship team” garbage is just inexcusable. If you don’t like them so much then either move or stop following the hawks completely. The nets fan base would love to have your services.

niremetal

February 17th, 2011
1:21 am

AJ,

Sorry, but the legal dispute didn’t affect the Hawks’ ability to sign free agents except for a brief period in 2006 where an idiot elected judge (really, “idiot” is implied from “elected”) issued an idiot injunction that was, as you yourself noted, overturned quickly. There was never any risk that the injunction would actually stop a free agent signing from happening because from the moment the injunction issued, everyone with a brain and a basic knowledge of equitable remedies knew that the injunction wouldn’t stand. So no, player agents were not scared off by that. I know this because I am friends with several player agents. They were negotiating with the Hawks same as they would any other team, and the Hawks signed players to contracts that summer just like any other team. Under the collective bargaining agreement, a contract is a contract is a contract. The league is obligated to pay a player’s salary if for some reason the team cannot – and there was never any risk that the Hawks could not.

The Hawks failure to spend more in free agency before 2007 was explainable by the fact that they were rebuilding. Their failure to spend more from 2007 onward was based on the fact that the team was both over the cap (thus keeping them from signing impact free agents) and losing money (which made signings at more than the minimum not worth it).

To be blunt, the fans have always blown the significance of the lawsuits way out of proportion. The people who matter in terms of player personnel moves don’t care about it and they never did. It was and is a non-issue. Fans who don’t understand the way major pro sports leagues work in a “behind-the-scenes” find that hard to believe, I know, but that’s frankly because…well, they don’t understand the way major pro sports league work. I’ve come to accept that ignorance as incurable, which is fine. But the idea that a different ownership group would have spent more or that the team would have been a more attractive free agent destination because they were owned by a different rich white man is, frankly, laughable.

niremetal

February 17th, 2011
1:22 am

*over the cap, losing money, and not just a player away from immediate contention (…)

niremetal

February 17th, 2011
1:30 am

All of this isn’t to say that ASG has done a good job running the team. They haven’t. They’ve done a poor job. But the Hawks are not suddenly going to start spending the luxury tax and become a free agent mecca if only ASG’s litigation went away and/or the team were sold. The litigation didn’t cause the Hawks to blow draft picks, sign worthless free agents like Speedy and Lo (RIP), and overspend to keep its “core” together. Hell, we’ve been dealing with the same BS since the days that Turner owned the team (albeit in a pre-luxury tax era). The team has fallen short because it’s made stupid decisions on who to draft, sign, and trade. Nothing more, nothing less.

vava74

February 17th, 2011
2:54 am

LD must go.

He has completely lost it.

Before the game he said that he would start the big line up UNLESS the Knicks went small with Amar’e at the C.

The Knicks started Mozgov and LD went for the traditional line up. WTF?

Unfortunately LD says all the rights things but then fails to implement them.

He has ZERO command over his troops. Did he go small to avoid the Al-Amar’e match up? What does that tell your adversary after all that talk?

I hate to say it. But it’s true. He deserved his shot and he deserves the boot.

Although Mozgov his hardly important for the Knicks, as the Pistons game proved, Collins give us a defensive mentality from tip off which we lack when we use our small line up.

Josh is a good help defender using his athleticism but he is not disciplined and does not play D with his brain hence although he gives away too much to quick SF I think it’s preferable to use the big line up where he could – theoretically – punish the inside.

vava74

February 17th, 2011
2:55 am

Punish the SFs inside.

E43

February 17th, 2011
3:28 am

Niremental-
I was with you until the part about picks. I have never expressed this approach out loud so bare with me.

The hawk’s picks were expected picks for the most part. The guys just didn’t live up to their potential. Most of the hawks to my knowledge appeared on at least one mock draft at one time or another. Its not like the hawks went out there swinging blindly. Look at Marvin and Chris Paul. People hate Marvin and wish they had Chris Paul but that’s just how the NBA is. If Marvin didn’t go at 2 he definitely would’ve gone at the 3. The sad thing about it is people think that Chris Paul was a surefire thing had we picked him. If he wasn’t then we’d all be complaining about why the hawks didn’t pick Marvin. There was just about the same hype for Marvin as there was Chris Paul. When the pick was made it was all cheers until much later. The only bad 1st round picks were in 2000 when the hawks picked Dermarr Johnson 6th overall instead of Jamal Crawford. The next bad judgment they had was when they traded for Dan Dickau a draft pick in 2002. Saying that they did a poor job is just over the line to me coz poor is like drafting a 3 point guards in the draft. They may not have don’t a great job but the word average is somewhat more acceptable.*this is in terms of pick though*

Big Ray

February 17th, 2011
5:50 am

E43 ,

You’ve got to be kidding me. 2006 was the worst. We took Shelden Williams, everybody in the world knew we were taking Shelden Williams, and nobody was crazy enough to take him as high as 5th. Except Billy Knight.

I’m not even going to bother with the 2005 draft argument with any lengthy details. I’ll never be able to understand the logic behind it. There are two positions in the NBA that are clearly pivotal. One of them is center, the other is point guard. Centers you build around. Point guards run your team. Anytime you pick differently, it better be a superstar or a clear position of need.

While the “potential superstar” status of Marvin is forever debatable (I know what the mock drafts said then, but the fact remains that potential is potential, not proof, and there was NO PROOF), he did NOT meet a position of clear need.

I don’t blame Marvin for not living up to his status. I blame Hawks management for their philosophical standpoints. And we’ve struggled with the pg position continuously since then. This ain’t even about CP3. Personally, I think Deron Williams would have been a better pick than CP3.

But 2006? Inexcusable.

O'Brien

February 17th, 2011
7:36 am

E43,

To make matters worse, when Marvin was drafted, the Hawks had already drafted Josh Smith (17th)and Josh Childress (6th) just one year earlier. Both were considered SFs at the time AND we had Al Harrington, another SF. So why take another SF in Marvin (specially when we had a glaring hole at PG).

Our PGs for ‘05-’06 were Tyronn Lue and Royal Ivey. Nobody knew Marvin would be a solid player (and not a star), and most scouts had him rated top 2. But when you have other wings on the roster, and a glaring need at PG, there is no excuse for taking Marvin (imo).

O'Brien

February 17th, 2011
7:45 am

From MC’s blog;

“At one point, a New York hack sitting next to me asked: “So, basically, whomever Bibby is guarding scores?” Me: “Not always. Sometimes his man passes to open shooters when everything breaks down, and they score.”MC.

Bibby has played well on offense recently, but I wonder if we are overlooking his impact on defense. For example, last night, he had 15 pts and 2 assists, and he made his 3’s. Not bad.

But the guy he was guarding had 13 pts and 11 assists, which means Felton scored almost the same as Bibby, but he also got his teammates involved.

Against Detroit, Bibby played great. But early on, he was a big reason why we ended up being down 15, because Bynum and Stuckey where breaking us down, and the Pistons were making their shots.

On a team thats jumper happy, we need a PG that can get to the FT line, get into the paint and get easy shots for his teammates etc…

niremetal

February 17th, 2011
8:33 am

O’B,

JJ was guarding Felton most of the game, and Bibby was on Fields…

Astro Joe

February 17th, 2011
8:59 am

I thought the scheme we are running is supposed to be “PG neutral”. Seriously, if you have watched Bibby play with this team for 3 years and then takeover as a head coach and bring in a new scheme, how do you do so without regard for your PG and his skills? I think you can certainly take Bibby to task for poor defense (although it is mostly a physical issue and not one that he can solve as he likely doesn’t own a sci-fi kit that will change his physical attributes). But I struggle to say that Bibby lacks the skills to run an offense effectively.

Anyone who remembers Josh’s rookie season would fully admit that he wasn’t so outstanding that a GM would decide that “our wing position is filled”. He looked a lot like Jerome Williams in his rookie year was the way I recall it.

O'Brien

February 17th, 2011
9:43 am

Ok. Maybe the issue is the Hawks do not execute the scheme often enough or well enough.

As for last night’s game…Total team loss.

Props to Marvin.

But Josh took 16 shots when his jumper was clearly off. And I’m disappointed that he only had 5 rebounds in 40 minutes, playing PF.

As for Jamal, LD is asking him to play backup PG, and that’s not his strength. He is a scorer off the bench. I think that has contributed to his struggles.

Hawks need a backup Center. ZaZa played 5 minutes, and he looked lost out there.

And of course, there is LD. I have been very disappointed in him these last few games. He says all the right things, but I am not seeing him back it up on the court.

However, either he is not telling the players the right things (stop taking jumpers, feed the ball into the post etc), or is he telling them but they ignore him (like they probably ignored Woody). My guess is its the latter, which is one reason why a change is needed.

I wonder if LD will make any changes after the AS break, because he cannot be happy with what he saw last night (although his options are limited thanks to Rick).

doc

February 17th, 2011
10:55 am

ok i guess i missed it over the weekend, break down CFTSOC for me.

is bibby that much better now than the guy he replaced, a johnson? or, is he worse because he cant run an offense nor play any defense?

BK was right. jj is a point after all as he continuously gets that assignment on defense unless there is a super star sg or a second rate point on the other team. he is the major distributor and ball handler on offense. just move jamal to sg and stop the pretense he should distribute and let it either go through jj of through al and josh then come back out. then limit bibby minutes to less than 20 a game and essentially let him be an eddie house like guy. do not expect or want more out of him. these guys are delusional to continue to do what they are doing.

also from that interview; it is plain that championship is not what they are after with the nba team unless it falls in their lap, “only one team gets that each year” type of stuff. they want an entertaining team that gets some wins on the side as well as get fans to buy into just that as their goal, too. sounds like going to the ballet, just sit back and enjoy what we give you. there is no sense of the competitor though he stated he wants to win. he also seemed to think growing up around basketball made him an expert in a way and lauded the nique deal his dad got when he was here. there was almost an appeal to get someone to buy from the local area into their product as an investor.

also mention was made of the coyotes as a possible place the thrashers could end up. not sure how but that concern was brought up. basically, it seems the thrashers are very fluid and threatened right now.

niremetal

February 17th, 2011
11:12 am

Doc,

CFTSOC = Change For The Sake Of Change

kwooden

February 17th, 2011
11:16 am

nire, from your 8:30 post. Fields nearly had a double-double also on 5 shots!

doc

February 17th, 2011
11:42 am

thanks nire.

here is an article i missed on the business section i guess.

http://www.ajc.com/sports/lawsuit-thrashers-owners-have-811606.html

it was part of the schultz article today with a picture of the happy ASG group showing their cuts in on the deal they had put together. last picture of them made with them all smiling i assume.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 17th, 2011
12:31 pm

“is bibby that much better now than the guy he replaced, a johnson? or, is he worse because he cant run an offense nor play any defense? ”

Right now, to me, Bibby is almost identical to 2006-2007 Tyronn Lue. The only difference is that Bibby is a much better screener.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 17th, 2011
12:40 pm

“You’ve got to be kidding me. 2006 was the worst. We took Shelden Williams, everybody in the world knew we were taking Shelden Williams, and nobody was crazy enough to take him as high as 5th. Except Billy Knight. ”

I think all of BK’s draft miscues go back to his initial vision for this team, which was a versatile team of interchangeable parts with little regard to traditional positions. In his mind, BK probably thought that Joe-Childress-Marvin-Smoove could be a viable 1 through 4 in the NBA. I still think the 2004 Pistons were somewhat of a model for him, with Joe roughly filling the role of Billups, Childress playing Rip, and Marvin and Smoove filling the roles of Prince and Rasheed Wallace more or less. I really think BK passed up CP3 and Deron Williams not because he didn’t think they were good, but because he really thought Joe could play the point in his grand vision for the team. Of course, as we now know, Childress only resembles Rip in appearance and not in his game, Joe is nowhere near quick enough to play the point full time, and Marvin has been underwhelming in every way. Smoove is the only one of those players who has even approached the vision I think BK had, filling the role of the versatile defensive forward.

To me, the 2006 offseason was a panic move necessitated by BK’s realization that his original master plan wasn’t going to work. Nothing else explains the long term contract for Speedy Claxton and the reach for Shelden Williams. I think somewhere during the 2005 season, BK came to the realization that Joe is not an NBA PG and the Hawks would need a traditional, defensive-minded big man along the lines of Ben Wallace to realize his vision. Unfortunately, instead of getting quality players to fill those roles, BK reached for a guy who was way out of his league as an NBA center in the lottery and signed a role player whose skill set didn’t mesh all that well with the rest of the team even on the rare occasion he was healthy.

Thank God for the Hawks lucking into the #3 spot in the ‘07 draft and having Al Horford drop into their laps.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 17th, 2011
12:46 pm

With all that said, at least you can attribute BK’s mistakes to having a unique, high-risk high-reward vision that didn’t pan out, as opposed to just being a poor judge of talent. He wasn’t good by any means, but I think the argument can be made that if he were to receive another shot as a GM somewhere, he could probably do well. That’s more than you can say about Sund, who has an abhorrent draft history and has accomplished nothing as an NBA GM despite having had a much, much longer career than BK.

doc

February 17th, 2011
1:04 pm

sund is the equivalent of the inept gm that “ran” the thrashers so long making poor decision after poor decision on personnel.

not sure if money problems required the reach in shels, najeh. they werent going to go out and spend for a big so they tried to get by with a draft pick, shels failed miserably. so viola, shels and lo to fill in the missing pieces. yes the franchise lucked into al flat out plain and simple. it “saved” the franchise from themselves. no other way to put it. think fan support sucks now, what would it have been if that hadnt fallen into place for them. still jj is playing point guard in principle as najeh pointed out as he guards felton and get the dimes for this team.

doc

February 17th, 2011
1:18 pm

of course meant nire pointed pout that jj had felton last night not najeh.

vava74

February 17th, 2011
1:51 pm

http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20110216&game=ATLNYK

Our lead (small) in the first quarter went down the drain when Bibby left the floor and entered…

The UNDERTAKER (Jamal).

With Bibby on the floor JJ was assigned to Felton and probably that changed when Jamal got in (nire, please confirm).

Then, Jamal, who was having a monster game, AGAIN played a 17 minute straight shift to close the game.

Is anyone looking at stats in the Hawks organization?

Apart from a few (very very few) scattered games Jamal has been EXTREMELY ineffective in virtually all late 3rd + 4th quarter shifts that LD stubbornly gets him to play.

This has happened even on games in which he scores 16-24 points since he gets 80-90% of his points in the early part of the game.

vava74

February 17th, 2011
1:53 pm

Jamal’s first shift (last 5 minutes 10 second of the 1st quarter and first 3 min 22 second of the second) produced a brilliant ± of -17!!!!!

Ken Strickland

February 17th, 2011
2:30 pm

BIG RAY-Don’t feel like the lone ranger, because I was convinced that LDrew was the perfect hire to replace Woodson. Actually he was, but for the wrong reasons. Hopefully, the teams lastest nose dive will be enough to convince RSund and the ASG that a trade is needed and need soon if we intend to improve.

I’ve become so frustrated lately that I’ve started coming up with possible trade ideas. I really liked the one posted earlier involving Golden State trading PG SCurry, C’s DGadzuric and ABiedrins and SG CBell for Zaza, Bibby, MEvans and JSmith. We get the PG of the future, a decent center in Biedrins and a nice expiring contract(Gadzuric).

I’d also like to see us persue a trade for PG DHarris. Send New Jersey JCrawford’s($10.8M) and MEvans’ ($2.5M)expiring contracts for DHarris($8.981M), and use our $3.63M trade exception to make up the difference. They get $13.3M in expiring contracts and we get the PG of the future that we need.

niremetal

February 17th, 2011
3:47 pm

Ken,

Not sure why you’re making a potential Harris trade complicated: Crawford for Harris straight up would work as far as salaries go. Adding Mo Evans would actually make the trade unworkable because the Nets would be taking back too much in salary. The trade exception can’t be combined with players in a trade, and wouldn’t be helpful in that trade anyway since we’d be sending the Nets more salary than they’d be taking back.

doc

February 17th, 2011
3:56 pm

maybe it is so we can finally say we used a trade exception

niremetal

February 17th, 2011
4:07 pm

The most frustrating thing is that the TPE is worth $3.6M and Sessions is getting paid $3.9M. The thing just isn’t big enough to land us a player of real value.

O'Brien

February 17th, 2011
4:11 pm

Ken,

I would trade Jamal for Devin Harris. He would be our starting PG, which would change the dynamic of the starters, and Bibby would stabilize the bench with Mo Evans and Marvin (when we go big). But the issue with the ASG always comes back to money.

If we do that trade, then we are adding an extra $9 mil in salary for next year, and that would put us into the luxury tax. ASG will not add that much in salary (imo) unless its for a superstar.

Najeh,

When the Hawks drafted Marvin (June 2005), BK did not know (for sure) that he would be able to get JJ in a sign and trade (which was completed August 2005). So although his plan was to have JJ play PG, I dont think that played in a reason in Marvin being drafted.

I think Marvin was drafted because the Hawks (and Dominique) thought he was going to be a top 5 player at his position.

As for Rick, his decision to re-sign our guys for the contracts he did has come back to haunt us.

He signed Mo Evans for a 3rd year player option ($2.5 mil), Bibby got a 3rd year guarantee ($6.2 mil), and although Marvin has been solid at times (and defends his position well), his 5 years, $37.5 mil deal made him almost untradeable.

I think the ZaZa deal was ok, but ZaZa has not lived up to his end of the deal. And time will tell about the JJ deal.

O'Brien

February 17th, 2011
4:15 pm

nire,

I thought the TPE could be used for a player’s salary that was within 125% (+/-). Is that correct?

Although even if we could use the TPE, we would have to cut somebody (Etan) to make space.

niremetal

February 17th, 2011
4:20 pm

O’B,

No, the 125% exception does not apply to TPE’s.

O'Brien

February 17th, 2011
4:29 pm

Thanks for clarifying.

Guys,

This is long, so feel free to get your scroll on. From Hoopinion;

It would be unfair to blame this loss entirely on Mike Bibby’s defensive shortcomings as he’s not to blame for the Hawks missing plenty of good shots while falling behind in the first quarter, Josh Smith taking nine more jump shots (making three), or Smith and Joe Johnson throwing the ball away on three successive fourth quarter possessions, effectively eliminating any question about which team would win the game but New York scored 102 points on just 92 possessions with the vast majority of those points coming from attacking Bibby or attacking the weaknesses created through the machinations involved in attempting to hide Bibby’s defensive liabilities.

Primarily, the Knicks attacked Bibby on the pick-and-roll. Bibby’s lack of mobility forced whichever player guarded the screener into double-duty: slow the ball-handler and recover quickly onto his man.

Because, if the Hawks switched on the ball-screen, the screener could either roll Bibby into the deep post or pop and shoot over Bibby. Most often, Bibby went under the ball-screen, his help defender showed on the ball-handler, then quickly retreated to his man.

This gave the ball-handler two options: 1) take an uncontested jumper or 2) attack Bibby off the dribble again in the hopes of drawing another help defender. And that second option created two avenues of attack for the ball-handler. He could attack in the hopes of either again drawing help off the initial screener or from off of one of New York’s spot-up shooters.

When Larry Drew attempted to remove Bibby from the screen-and-roll defense he did so by keeping Bibby on the court but assigning Joe Johnson to guard the ball-handler. Joe Johnson struggles mightily dealing with off-the-ball screens and had little success (*Nor should he have been expected to have success in that situation) dealing with the combination of Raymond Felton’s speed and the ball-screens inherent in the design of New York’s offense.

Finally, as has been tried so often this season as the Hawks have been attempting futile comebacks or busy blowing leads in the fourth quarter, Larry Drew responded to the inherent defensive problems of playing a Bibby/Jamal Crawford backcourt not by removing one from the game in favor of a two-way player but by playing a 2-3 zone that roots Bibby and Crawford in space on the perimeter and drags at least one of Josh Smith or Al Horford away from the basket to deal with spot-up shooters.

One hopes that the All-Star break provides Larry Drew and the Hawks with the time to reflect on whether or not it is worth it, even given the limited options at his disposal, to work so hard to find a way to keep Mike Bibby on the floor for 30 or more minutes a night.

It wasn’t worth it in New York and that on a night when Bibby shot the ball well (15 points on 8 shots), providing more of an offensive contribution than can be reasonably expected on a regular basis..

To be fair to Bibby, the team is 34-21, and could finish as high as 3rd or 4th. But it will be very difficult (imo) to win a first round playoff series given the team’s limitations, which I think starts at the PG position.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 17th, 2011
4:42 pm

“The most frustrating thing is that the TPE is worth $3.6M and Sessions is getting paid $3.9M. The thing just isn’t big enough to land us a player of real value.”

Forget the TPE… the Hawks can very easily acquire a lot more than just Sessions if they really want. They have the expiring contracts to do it.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=4ukp8yw

I’m usually the kind of person who thinks most of the trade ideas posted on these blogs are unrealistic nonsense, but I can’t think of one good reason why any team in that deal would veto it. Detroit saves money, Cleveland saves money and gets a prospect (incidentally one who dropped 25 and 15 on them
about 10 months ago), and the Hawks improve their depth at four positions. Send out a pick if need be and get it done.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 17th, 2011
4:50 pm

If that deal were to happen, Bibby would become a backup/instant offense bench player like his brother in law, Zaza would be relegated to fourth string center (thank goodness), the Hawks would instantly add two players who can get to the free throw line, the added depth would more than make up for the loss of Jamal’s scoring, Marvin would face the most meaningful competition for his starting job that he has ever had, and Josh Powell would no longer be the only Hawk with “championship experience”. Short of a trade for a legit star like Nash, that is about as good as the Hawks can hope to do in my opinion.

Ken Strickland

February 17th, 2011
5:52 pm

NIREMETAL-when you’re right, you’re right. However, our trade exception can be used in combination with a player, but only if we receive no more than one(1) player in return. But on the other hand, it can only be used when you receive more salary than you send, so you’re right on that front as well. The trade actually works straight up as well.

OBRIEN-It wouldn’t automatically put us in luxury tax territory. We’d still have MEvans’ $2.5M, approximately $3.2M in expiring contracts(JPowell, DWilkins, JCollins & EThomas)and the $3.63M trade exception, if we allow it to expire. That $9.33M in savings would give us some breathing room, and Bibby’s contract would become an expiring one.

Look, the Hawks have been pretty doggone good over the last 2+yrs, and managed to make it to the 2nd rd of the playoffs both seasons. They were good enough to accomplished this while overcoming some coaching and player issues, especially at PG and SF, but PG in particular. If we can become the Eastern Conference’s 3rd best team with so many issues, particularily at PG, adding a quality PG like DHarris would take us to the next level, which would be worth any luxury tax payments, which would likely be minimal.

He’d give us more speed, quickness, scoring, more consistent scoring, more ways to score(more FT attempts from penetration and assists), better DEF, and the ability to change tempo.

O'Brien

February 17th, 2011
6:09 pm

Ken S,

The luxury tax this season is ~$70 mil, which is where we are right now (right below). Next season, the Hawks have $64 mil committed in salary (and this is assuming Jamal, Mo, Etan and Josh Powell are allowed to leave). And we would still have to add an additional player or 2 at the vet min (which brings us up to $66 mil).

What makes the total salary an issue is because there will probably be a new CBA next season, so the luxury tax threshold will probably be lower than the $70 mil it’s at right now.

If we assume the luxury tax drops to $65 mil, then Hawks are already pushing the envelope (and it might be even lower). So the ASG will be in a cost cutting move trying to reduce salary.

Ken Strickland

February 17th, 2011
6:40 pm

OBRIEN-your 4:29PM post should be required reading. I’ve been saying the same thing for yrs. I’ve made numerous posts about how, upon Bibby’s arrival, our scoring increased by 9PPG, and about how there was a corresponding increase of 9PPG allowed, due to his poor DEF ability. Now, if his DEF back then was bad enough to cause our PPG allowed to increase by 9PPG, how many additional PPG is he allowing now?

Consider this. When Bibby first arrived, he wasn’t being targeted by teams and still caused us to give up an additional 9PPG. But now we all see how targeting him has become a primary strategy when attacking the Hawks’ DEF. He certainly hasn’t scored enough PPG in the last 2yrs to increase our scoring by anything close to 9PPG, and his DEF has definitely diminished beyond allowing just 9PPG, especially with him now being targeted.

WHAT IN THE DEVIL IS WITH THIS LOVE AFFAIR WITH MBIBBY? He’s killing the team, and placing undue OFF/DEF pressure and hardship on everyone on the floor with him. And what’s worse, I don’t think he’d have any trouble with being Teague’s backup, if a committment was made to develop him. After all, he did say last yr that he talked to Woodson several times about playing Teague more.

niremetal

February 17th, 2011
6:53 pm

Ken,

No, sorry, you’ve got it backwards. The TPE cannot be used in combination with a player. It can, however, be “split” and used to acquire multiple players. From the FAQ:

There are some common misconceptions about non-simultaneous trades. For one…teams cannot combine a Traded Player exception with other exceptions (such as the Mid-Level exception or the 125% plus $100,000 margin from another trade) in order to trade for a more expensive player. For example, a team with a $1 million Traded Player exception cannot combine it with their $2 million player to trade for a $3 million player (see question number 75 for more information on combining exceptions).

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q72

Remember: The ability to make trades AT ALL for other teams’ players when you are over the salary cap is only allowed through an exception to the salary cap. The salary cap rule is that a team cannot add any more players AT ALL if the team is over the salary cap. Not through trade, and not even if the trade would result in the team taking back less salary than they are sending out – the salary cap does not care about the effect of getting rid of players, but only the affect of adding players.

There are, of course, exceptions to that rule. When you’re over the cap, you are barred from signing or trading for other players unless you use one of those specific exceptions. Exceptions cannot be combined. One of those exceptions is the “traded player exception,” which permits teams to make player-for-player trades even if they are over the salary cap, as long as they are not taking back more than 125% + $100k in salary in that trade. Another exception is that if you trade a single player to another team and take back little or nothing in salary, you can use the “gap” in salary to acquire another player later (that “gap” is colloquially called a “trade exception”). But since that’s a separate exception, it cannot be combined with the exception allowing you to make a player-for-player trade.

O'Brien

February 17th, 2011
6:55 pm

“I think you can look at it both ways,” Crawford told HOOPSWORLD. “Hopefully we can go out there and prove our fans right—that we did the right thing sticking together. The one thing I know for sure is that we have continuity. We’ve stayed together so guys know each other and there’s no surprises. Hopefully that plays to our advantage.”.

Doesnt Jamal realize this is a bad thing? It’s like players, coaches and Rick are in denial.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=18809

Ken Strickland

February 17th, 2011
7:09 pm

OBRIEN-on the luxury tax issue, I doubt if the luxury tax will be drastically lowered all at once, which would automatically place most teams in luxury tax territory. If it’s reduced any measurable amount, it will be done in increments, thus giving teams adequate time to adjust.

niremetal

February 17th, 2011
7:17 pm

O’B,

In fairness, what do you expect them to say in public? “Nah man, this sucks. It’s same old, same old. We all do stupid things and ain’t no one gonna stop us long as we’re together.”

O'Brien

February 17th, 2011
7:36 pm

nire,

One thing I give Jamal credit for. He could have used the opportunity to mention him not having a contract, or thinking about a trade etc.

But you’re right. He has to say all the right things in public. I wonder if when he is home, and thinking about things…if he feels the same way.

Sautee

February 17th, 2011
9:39 pm

Ken Strickland,

I’m not arguing in favor of Bibby, but in fairness this should be pointed out:

Yes, our PPG allowed went up when Bibby got here, but our turnovers went down by about 2 per game, and got even lower as the team adjusted to Bibby.

And yes, you and I have discussed that ONE reason for that is because he no longer penetrates very often, but STILL, by taking care of the ball, he gave us a couple of extra possessions per game and when your average margin of victory is as small as ours, a couple of possessions can be key. And that showed as we began to win games that we previously had pissed away.

But there is NO doubt that Bibby has regressed since he arrived.

I’m still of the opinion that Teague is not ready yet, so I’m hoping we trade Jamal for a starting PG. But if we don’t, then we need to let Teague fly the plane with the starters a little more often.

Ken Strickland

February 17th, 2011
10:05 pm

SAUTEE-I understand what you’re saying, but we need more production, better direction, and more versatility from our PG position, and we’re not getting it from Bibby. We’ve virtually become a jump shooting team because we rely heavily on a PG with little more to offer offensively.

Because he doesn’t control the ball or the OFF more than half the time, doesn’t make certain everyone is involved in the OFF, and doesn’t create easy close to the basket scoring opportunities for others, certain players are starting to revert back to their old ISO habits(JJ and Jamal) or launching numerous ill advised jumpers(Josh).

As efficient and versatile as Horford is as a scorer, there’s absolutely no excuse for him going long stretches receiving limited touches. There’s also no excuse for Marvin going long stetches without getting the ball in a position to score, especially when he’s active. This is the result of poor PG play, and even poorer coaching. It appears as if the closer we get to the trade deadline the less productive Jamal becomes. I believe he really wants to remain in the ATL, and the idea he might have to leave is bothering him.

E43

February 18th, 2011
2:08 am

Big Ray + Obrien- the issue about your arguments is that your throwing away the situations the hawks were in. especially with that shelden williams pick. Rajon Rondo is the only guy that i can think of that has evolved into an efficient player from that 2006 draft who else do you think could be make an impact for the hawks in that draft? as for centers. i dont think that draft has produced a single starting center. there were multiple 7 footers. say they did decide to pick point guard in that draft, who were they supposed to pick? there was a huge amount of combo guards but maybe two or three point guards. If some of these guys the hawks picked did what they were drafted to do then maybe we wouldn’t be in this predicament. Look at the al horford pick. its a sin to pick shelden a pf/c but its perfectly fine to pick horford a pf/c the very next year? and even when it does come to point guards. they did damage control by going after acie bibby and teague but they all failed aside from bibby helping us get to the playoffs his first year.

Say we didnt pick shelden. who exactly should the hawks gone after? mouhamad sene put together the best a 2006 C draft best 5rpg. The point i was trying to make was that yeah the management has swung and miss but they did do damage control. its not like they all out abandoned going after centers and point guards. in the meantime the hawks have put together 3 good seasons so. they have to be doing something right somewhere. I’m not saying that they did a great job but I refuse to say that the did a bad one.

doc

February 18th, 2011
9:20 am

e43 uh brandon roy to answer the questiom of who instead of shels.