Hawks fans: When is patience no longer a virtue?

Are you thinking what I’m thinking? If it’s “here we go again,” then we’re thinking the same thing.

Another fourth quarter collapse. Another quick point guard doing the Hawks in. Another set of typical quotes from two of the team’s captains. Another vein of frustration popping out of the coach’s forehead. Perspectives from AL, Larry, and Joe are becoming the norm these days. But that is not the problem at all. The problem is that those perspectives haven’t changed one bit, because the situation has not changed.

Patience, patience

That’s why management preaches. That’s not what you’re hearing from Head Coach Larry Drew, though. No, what we’re hearing from him is long-suffering. There is a fundamental difference between the two. Patience is realizing that a non-lottery draft pick might need a bit more work than a lottery draft pick. Patience is understanding that a new offensive philosophy or a new rotation player added to the mix takes some time to develop. Patience is doing the best you can as a team while waiting for injured starters to heal.

Patience is not making the same exact mistakes again and again, despite the fact that you should know by now (after 2 or 3 years) what will cause you to lose the lead in a game. Why is shot selection still an issue?

The Usual Suspects, The Usual Results

Joe Johnson is the best player on this team and the guy you want to have the ball in the worst situations. How does he end up taking only two more shots than the team’s sixth man, and seven less shots than the team’s worst perimeter shooting starter? You can criticize Joe for taking too many jumpers if you choose. But the fact is, Joe is a shooter and scorer. You WANT him to shoot.

Jamal Crawford is a streak shooter. Either he’s good, or he’s bad. There is little middle ground with Jamal. Do you want him to shoot? Yes. It’s what he does. But you have to understand that shoot is what he’s going to do, whether he’s on or not. On the other end of the floor, there is nothing to balance things out, plain and simple. The good news is that Jamal does know how to get to the line.

Now for the self-made whipping boy, Josh Smith. Josh has gotten to where he can make shots from the outside. The problem is that in his mind, can is the same as will. Smith’s early season perimeter success has eroded on a near day-to-day basis, and I truly believe that much of this has to do with him trying to establish his offense outside first, instead of inside. The problem with this is that it’s the exact opposite of what his coach has been trying to tell him. And there it is – Josh not listening again. Still. When will this change? Will it change?

Taking Notes

Rick Sund says the Hawks like their core, and that they are going to be patient with the team. But when is patience no longer a virtue? How long can the Hawks afford to stay with the status quo? We’re not talking about making random changes here. We’re talking about fixing actual problems. When do the excuses run out? How long is ownership and management going to take an “Oh, it will be fine” stance?

Maybe Sund should start taking note of the things some of his most valued players are saying. Maybe he should pay attention to the words coming from the mouth of the very man he “hired” to change that which has not changed. Sooner or later this will be simply too much. Sooner or later regression takes hold for good, until something significant is done. The Hawks keep saying it can happen from within, but can it? They say they’re aware of the main problem. A couple of wins go by and all is somewhat good. Then the inevitable happens and it’s back to the same quotes, the same hanging heads, the same shrugging shoulders.

Perhaps Al Horford said it best :

“I guess when it gets to a point where it hurts you and really bothers you, then you do something about it. I don’t know that we’re there as a team yet.”

Does it hurt the team enough yet, or have they passed the point of where they are collectively aware (translation: are there guys who simply don’t care enough)? How about management? Are there enough guys on the floor to fix the situation, or does the fix have to come from higher? More than ever, it seems that this questions leans harder towards the latter, rather than the former.

Flip Side of the Coin

Not all is gloom and doom. At the very least, the Hawks have gotten past the injury bug for the moment. Al Horford looked like he didn’t miss a beat against Milwaukee, hitting 7 of 9 shots and adding another nice double double to his collection. Meanwhile, Marvin looked rather effective coming off the bench. This is certainly good news for a Hawks team that may need to experiment a bit more to find the best possible chemistry that it can, seeing as how the schedule will only get tougher.

273 comments Add your comment

D.McGourty

January 27th, 2011
9:24 pm

D.McGourty

January 27th, 2011
9:26 pm

First time posting something too, how about that

Big Ray

January 27th, 2011
9:28 pm

First AND second!

Section 303

January 27th, 2011
9:43 pm

If the Hawks do not make some kind of trade, then the management just does not care. You can’t keep this group together and expect anything different than what we’ve seen. And, really, this team won’t have a shot of making it out the round 1 as a 5th seed. No shot.

Would be nice to see this team make a bold move for once. I know who I would trade. He wears #5, pouts at refs, and plays hard sometimes.

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O'Brien

January 27th, 2011
10:08 pm

Our PG, who is one of our leaders is one of the culprits (imo), when it comes to the shoulder shrug after a loss.

More often than not, regardless of how the game was lost, Bibby usually says something like “It’s just one game”, “these things happen” etc.

Josh usually has some kind of excuse, and JJ will say he’s not sure what happened. More often than not, Al is the voice of reason, and thats partly why I think he should have been named captain.

Can anybody say they have seen any leadership qualities out of Josh this season?

As for the “core”, we will not know for sure how the core will do until we get to the playoffs. But so far, we continue to see flashes of the same ole Hawks.

If Sund does not make a move this season, and the Hawks get bounced in the first round, or blown out (or swept) in the second, then maybe Sund and LD should both be on the hot seat next year.

SteveW

January 27th, 2011
10:09 pm

This quote about Josh is what we’ve been trying to tell the blind Josh followers, “Smith’s early season perimeter success has eroded on a near day-to-day basis, and I truly believe that much of this has to do with him trying to establish his offense outside first, instead of inside.The problem with this is that it’s the exact opposite of what his coach has been trying to tell him. And there it is – Josh not listening again. Still. When will this change? Will it change?”

The Coach says one thing, and Josh does another. The only excuse proffered is that it is his teammates fault for passing him the ball on the perimeter. Nobody is talking about shots with 3 seconds left etc. Direct disobedience to the Coach. Anybody want to defend it?

SteveW

January 27th, 2011
10:12 pm

Patience with Teague, and probably Jordan Crawford, and maybe even Sy, will pay dividends.

Grandad – Have you seen our guy Pape Sy! 19-30 from the field in his last 4 or 5 games. Been tearing it up. We may have Mo’ Evans replacement right there for next season.

And yes, I was against bringing him over from Le Havre, but it may pay dividends.

Section 303

January 27th, 2011
10:22 pm

SteveW, I’m done with Teague. He isn’t good. 3-years from now he won’t even be in the league.

I like Jordan Crawford, from what I’ve seen. He seems fearless and he has a potentially great shot. I guess he has a chance to get in the rotation next year (if there is a next year). No shot if the Hawks keep Jamal Crawford.

Not holding my breath on Pope Sy. He seems like a major reach. Haven’t seen him play, though. But, did read the D-League scouts bashing him after the D-League Showcase. In his defense, he was coming off an injury. Had not had much time to get rolling.

Air Zaza

January 27th, 2011
10:53 pm

I’m no where near done with our really young guys, they are prospects and are still growing. They are okay in my book. Josh Smith should no longer play SF, ever again. Either start Marvin at SF and Smith at PF. Bring Smith off the bench. He doesn’t need to play SF.

tyger

January 27th, 2011
10:53 pm

Hawks mediocre, plain and simple…

1. Mgt. did nothing to improve…
2. Hawks mediocre then, Hawks mediocre now…
3. The Hawks are, who we thought they were…
4. They’ve all reached their peaks…it is what it is…
5. Where’s Flip Murray?
6. Teague is a waste of sperm…
7. ZaZa was 2x better, 3 yrs. ago…
8. Lou Williams developed internally, Teague has not…
9. Does Smoove have a right hand???
10. Who makes Bibby’s shoes? Acme Cement Co.?

charles

January 27th, 2011
11:14 pm

We are not winning anything in the playpffs with bibby and teague as our point guards. We NEED to send Jamaal Crawford’s expiring contract and get devin harris. We would have a legit point guard for the first time in years….

coolbronx

January 27th, 2011
11:29 pm

First of all the Hawks are too small on the front line. They are not going to win consistently with Al at the 5. Why draft Teague and not play him? Teague is a very good player who just isn’t getting the time to prove himself. Every player makes turnovers, look at Josh Smith. The GM has done nothing. They could have had Shaq but were too cheap to pay him. He would have paid for himself with increased attendance. They basically came back with the same team grossly overpaid an marginal player Joe Johnson) and expected to get better. And they wonder why they don’t get fan support.

DHD

January 27th, 2011
11:37 pm

The Hawks have peaked. We can sit still and be happy with the 4th or 5th seed, losing in the second round each year or we can make a bold move. My money is on sitting still, sadly.

E

January 28th, 2011
12:54 am

To all the Hawks and NBA fans please not looking so deep into what the problem is due to the entire problem being that only about 25% of the players are really PROS at what they do and the other 75% is STRAIGHT GARBBAGE. That’s why they only show the same team on national television on a weekly basis because if not the rating would drop. THE WORD PRO IS VERY OVERRATED AT THIS POINT OF THE NBA.

wordsmithtom

January 28th, 2011
1:06 am

Big Ray,
Best blog ever! Smokin!

Stay patient: I don’t see this ownership group wanting to do anything different before the new labor agreement this summer. Perhaps a minor tweek come trade deadline with Crawford, but little more until they know how the big money shakes out under the new deal. Your comment from Al speaks to ownership: if the fan base doesn’t support their product to the point it “hurts”, they’ll do something about it…right now, it probably doesn’t hurt enough to make a major change with so much in flux ahead of the new deal.

Ed

January 28th, 2011
3:00 am

Super work Ray…keep’em coming. The best thing we can hope for is the ASG sells the Hawks. Only then (if the right owner buys them) will this franchise turn it around. As others have mentioned, this group of players has reached it’s peak and I don’t see ownership making a significant move. Somewhere Woody must be smilin’…

NCBravesFan

January 28th, 2011
6:04 am

Unless and until there’s a change at the very top (either new ownership or the willingness of the current ownership to spend money and make gutty, smart decisions), not much figures to change. There’s no accountability on the team because there’s no accountability in the organization.

The Hawk ownership is clearly content with being a “nice” secondary team at best, and doesn’t want to risk where they are for the possible rewards of what could be for NBA ball in ATL.

Little vision, limited commitment, no apparent awareness of how their actions/statements resonate with the fans. I’m talking about the owners here, but could not the same be said of the players in far too many key situations?

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
6:59 am

Section 303 ,

I think more people are beginning to lean that way.

wordsmithtom ,

Thanks! As for staying patient, do we have much choice? To be honest, I’m not entirely certain this ownership group is going to hold onto this team. They’ve been trying to sell the Thrashers (reportedly), as we see part of their lawsuit against that one particular group states that they haven’t been able to because of the way the group appraised things (or whatever the fight is about this time). I would not be surprised if they have been trying to sell the Hawks.

Some of the owners have been quoted as saying they’ve done nothing but lose money since buying the team (Rutherford Seydel). Others have said they had to cut back their stake in the team (Rutherford Seydel…again). Don’t know how much longer we’ll see them at the controls. Don’t know that I care.

Ed ,

Thanks! I don’t know if Woody is smiling, but if he is, it’s a partially bitter smile. Fact is, his name has yet to appear on any media radar since he was unceremoniously allowed to walk away. I take that back. One media source suggested that he might be interviewed for the Cavs job prior to the start of the season. Since then, the only person talking about Mike Woodson is Charles Barkley. And while he’s loveable and funny (and sometimes a jackass), the man is NOT who you want speaking on your behalf prior to a job interview.

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
7:06 am

tyger ,

Come on, man. With #6, you’re no longer talking about a basketball player. You’re talking about a person. You don’t like the ball player. Fine. But I doubt you actually know the person. Keep it level, man.

On Lou Williams – dude stunk his first two years, and could hardly get minutes. In fact, he got fewer minutes his rookie year than Teague did. Didn’t shoot any better, certainly didn’t score any better. In his third year, he got 23 mpg, and unsurprisingly, his production became legit. He still isn’t all that good of a shooter (career 42.5%) but he is clearly a scorer. I’m pretty disappointed in Teague too, but a third year he gets all the same (unless traded). After that, all bets are off.

Take a look at what Lou did his first two years. You won’t come away impressed with his “development” at all.

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
7:09 am

E

January 28th, 2011
12:54 am
To all the Hawks and NBA fans please not looking so deep into what the problem is due to the entire problem being that only about 25% of the players are really PROS at what they do and the other 75% is STRAIGHT GARBBAGE. That’s why they only show the same team on national television on a weekly basis because if not the rating would drop. THE WORD PRO IS VERY OVERRATED AT THIS POINT OF THE NBA.

Try college ball. Then you can complain about recruiting violations and what not ;)

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
7:11 am

SteveW ,

Any serious defense will likely start or end with the bashing of another player. For instance, the best way to defend a guy when he’s come to this point, is to compare him to somebody else you don’t like.

Most likely argument? Support Josh by bashing Marvin (or Al). Sure, it’s disingenuous, but it’s sooooo convenient for some. Heh heh heh…

O'Brien

January 28th, 2011
7:29 am

Forbes.com ranked all NBA teams in terms of value. Bucks were dead last at $278 mil, while our Hawks checked in at #21, with a value of $306 mil.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/32/nba08_NBA-Team-Valuations_Value.html/

I will not be surprised if the ASG sell the Hawks within the next 3 or 4 years, especially if they continue to lose money.

O'Brien

January 28th, 2011
7:48 am

I think the Hawks and Josh will benefit a great deal from a trade.

The Hawks will benefit because:

1) We could upgrade at PG (or Center)
2) Hawks need to be more consistent, and Josh is the definition of inconsistent
3) Hawks need a mental makeover, so trading a starter will change the personality/dynamic of the team.

* If we can get a defensive PG in here, then Josh’s weakside help will not be needed as much. His rebounding is consistent, but his blocks per game are on the decline (too much SF maybe).

Nov: 2.07 bpg, Dec: 1.53 bpg, Jan: 1.10 bpg

And Josh will benefit because it will be a fresh start for him, new fans, new coach, and hopefully, a team where he can play PF full time.

Imagine how good Josh would be if he was playing for Popovich, Sloan, Rivers, or one of those A-level coaches.

STRETCH

January 28th, 2011
7:53 am

Big Ray,

Just wanted to thank U for writing this, and i havent even read the article yet!!

Every team with a chance of making the playoffs is making moves or either inquiring. Yeah we know that Hawks inquired, but thats all they are going to do inquire.

But U are keeping real while MC just wrote an article on Walt Frazier????? LOL!

But it seems the case for so long around ATL that the fans have to put up with mediocre management resulting in mediocre talent and therefore mediocre results.

STRETCH

January 28th, 2011
7:59 am

The problem is JJ and JS, both or one of the two need to go. A “Superstar” that shows up once a week and a “Superbaby” that shows up crying every game!

Steven

January 28th, 2011
8:16 am

The scary thought is what happens once the players realize (if they haven’t already) that this collective bunch isn’t going to do more than they already have, and the ownership/GM isn’t going to make a move to make them better. What are they playing for? Will they give it their all knowing that they’re playing for a contract extension 4 years from now?

Willie Coyote

January 28th, 2011
8:44 am

Josh is our best Athlete and can dunk on just about anyone in the league. Why does he routinely go to the hole so soft or settle for jumpers. We need him to go Blake Griffin on folks.

I wish he had the mentality of Josh Childress. He scored in double figures every night without having one play run for him. he did it on the offensive glass, in transition, and on back cuts. Josh is bigger and more athletic than Childress but the mental makeup isn’t there to do the little things like that on a consistent basis.

When you take him out, you have no shot blocker on the court and no one who can pick up his defensive slack. That is why he is never benched because we can’t afford to do it.

It really speaks to his talent that he is so irreplaceable in some respects. If you do trade him, what is your asking price? Who is willing or able to put together a package worthy of Josh. Like him or not, he is one-of-a-kind in this league. When he’s locked in, watch out. Unfortunately, in year 7, we are still saying this.

Teague won’t get minutes as long as Jamal is here. If we want to develop Teague this season, Crawford has to be traded; otherwise it will be next year when Crawford walks. Unfortunately Teague’s jumper is such a liability that he really hurts his own case. He can break people down off the dribble and get shots for his teammates better than anyone else on the roster though.

westurd

January 28th, 2011
8:46 am

No Comment…….you said it all Big Ray. Good stuff

Astro Joe

January 28th, 2011
9:20 am

Wllie Coyote said, I wish he (Josh Smith) had the mentality of Josh Childress. Uh, yeah, that would be real nice and would likely make him a top 10 player in the league.

Great stuff, Big Ray. This group of players lacks discipline. Joe knows he should move the ball but sometimes gets caught up in iso-mode. Josh knows right from wrong but fails to consistently do the right thing. Al even gets jumper happy as if to prove on the court his “I’m really a PF” statements off the court. I used to cry about the team’s lack of b-ball IQ but now I believe it is less IQ and more discipline. They know, they just too often don’t do. That doesn’t come from a lack of energy, it comes from a lack of discipline. They know that the salad is a better option than the bacon cheeseburger, they just choose to go with satisfying their craving much too often (I can relate). And so far, our new head coach doesn’t appear anymore interested in “accountability” than the last one.

O'Brien

January 28th, 2011
10:15 am

MC is reporting that Damien has been signed for the rest of the season, which I think is a good move.

However, that puts the Hawks at 15 players, so they have no more flexibility.

@ AJ,

Bibby is probably the main guy who tries to stay within his limitations more often than not.

O'Brien

January 28th, 2011
10:19 am

As a side note, this is another example of Rick being a reactive (not proactive) GM.

All off-season, we talked about this team needing a wing defender, but Rick and LD did not address it. Marvin and Mo got hurt at the same time, and they STILL did not address it.

Ironically, it was when JJ got hurt that they finally signed Damien.

Astro Joe

January 28th, 2011
10:28 am

OB, I’m not too thrilled with the move (assuming nothing else happens with the roster). I’d rather have Jason Williams sitting on the bench than Damien Wilkins. If LD goes with the big line-up, Wilkins becomes the 6th wing on the team. I’d much rather have a true PG riding the pine than a 6th wing player. It also means that we can’t add any vet who accepts a post trade deadline buyout from their team.

Cutty

January 28th, 2011
10:38 am

Wait a minute I thought that Marvin Williams was the problem with our team? Josh Smith needs to be the one coming off the bench when we use our big lineup. Really he needs to be traded. This is his 7th year in the league and he is doing the same stuff. He needs to be traded. Who cares about the hometown boy crap anyway? Other than his family and his “homeboys” no one is going to see just Josh Smith. He has more turnovers that blocks. Think about because he is basically giving the other team the ball right back with the turnovers. I told you guys that he has no business playing SF. Corey Maggette ate his lunch the other night while he went 6 for 20.

vava74

January 28th, 2011
10:56 am

From the previous blog:

Rod,

You are dead wrong.

There is a reason why Jamal HAS NEVER BEEN involved in winning basketball.

He is soft, desinterested/unable to play D, poor decision maker, … You name it.

Yes, he is very talented on the ball player, sometimes even wonderful to watch, but so are the Harlem Globetrotters.

Basically Jamal has never been good structurally for the teams he plays.

He was vastly overused by Woody and is being vastly overused by LD.

The team had more spunk and played more cohesive with Flip.

These are facts. Even more evident that Marvin’s alleged prejudicial effect on the team.

Your: “Marvin returns, the Hawks lose” is pathetic.

Marvin is not #2 material and has marked shortcomings but your loathing is delusional.

Rufus1

January 28th, 2011
10:59 am

Astro Joe…Great point!

“I used to cry about the team’s lack of b-ball IQ but now I believe it is less IQ and more discipline. They know, they just too often don’t do. That doesn’t come from a lack of energy, it comes from a lack of discipline.”

If you watch the elite teams(Boston) offensive and defensive discipline is what they display every game. Teams can survive with one undiscipline player coming off the bench(Nate Robinson)for 10-15min, but we have 2 1/2 to 3 undisciplined players on our team getting 30+ minutes a game!!!

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
11:12 am

Astro Joe ,

You called it. Even Smith, who has often times been criticized as being “basketball stupid” is really not.

I think the disease and the culture are one and the same. There is enough of the “lack of discipline” that it even affects the guys who truly know better. Joe gets caught up in ISO because when all is failing around him, he knows how to be himself, and do what he does. Horford gets caught up in being a PF more than a center when caught up in the madness. Thing is, both guys are much more likely to be at least individually effective when it happens. Horford might play too softly, but still puts up a double double with 50% – plus shooting. Joe may get caught up in ISO, but will often still give you 20+ points and 4-6 assists and rebounds.

Other guys? When they screw up, they screw ALL the way up.

Rufus1

January 28th, 2011
11:16 am

Team “TOV” Turnovers

Al 65 TOV and 49 blocks
JS 125 and 60 blocks
JJ 68
JC1 79
Bibby 59

DISCIPLINE…..HMMMMM!

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
11:16 am

Rufus1 ,

Boston is a great example. Truth be told, they have had two undisciplined guys. Robinson and Big Baby Davis. The former will become acclimated soon enough. The latter learned through trial by fire, and by having true leaders on his team. He now is somebody they can count on. Furthermore, it was a team where a personality like Shaq could exist without being a negative influence.

Here, they’d be counting on Shaq for too much leadership, instead of simply another veteran influence.

Oh wait. We signed Josh Powell for veteran leadership. Silly me.

steve brown

January 28th, 2011
11:22 am

Rutherford Seydel is a corporate lawyer, can’t wait to hear his testimony in his lawsuit versus his lawyer. Does Kaman of the Clippers for Smooth (ugh) help?

superiorblogman

January 28th, 2011
11:39 am

This is not called patience. If you see you have a lesion on your body that is there for longer than a month and it does not go away you had better go to the doctor, because the longer you let it stay the more dangerous it becomes. The Hawks have had 2 and you can argue 3 major marks in the starting lineup for atleast 2 years now and they have not done anything about it. It was proven in the Miami series that guys will just go at Bibby over and over again. It was proven in the Orlando series that Horford was not going to get you out of the East playing C. They have not fixed either of those issues and they are not new. Add to that Marvin is inconsistent and not reliable, Josh should not be shooting jumpshots. This team just has a bad mix right now. There asking people to do things they can’t and others are doing things they shouldn’t be. We all know what needs to be done and that is trading Josh and Jamal or Josh and Teague for a C and PG. This patience that they have is dangerous to long term health, because someone is going to have to publicly go after Josh to get him to stop this.

Rufus1

January 28th, 2011
11:40 am

Rufus1

January 28th, 2011
11:42 am

yodaddy

January 28th, 2011
11:45 am

We need to make a trade…..For the first time….I agree it has to be one of the starters.

Bibby, Marvin or Josh Smith…..add in a Jamal Crawford and Jeff Teague and lets go for it. Carmelo Anthony…Monta Ellis….Deron Williams….anybody really.

Our ability to collapse at home and on the road is crazy to me. It’s deflating and disheartening. How many games have we lost in the 4th quarter? I’m not talking a close game and then we lose…I’m talking we clearly have the lead and are in control and then just collapse??? How many games have we been blown out?

Dooley

January 28th, 2011
11:54 am

Obviously, people don’t watch the hawk enough to tell me Joe Johnson is the best player on the team.Are you folks out your mind?All the shots he missed,i mean uncontested floaters.Al Horford is the best player on the hawks.Consistent,Shoots over 50 % on FG’s,Plays hard every night,Averages a double double on consistent basis.Joe Johnson is our best scorer?What?Yall Noses must be runnin for saying some stuff like that.Jamal Crawford is the best scorer.And what does it matter if hes not making shots,he still gets to the line.You know why hes the best scorer because he can get a basket anytime and anywhere on the floor.He scores in bunches as dominique wilkins says.Look what Joe Johnsons Shot Percentage is every game.And You say hes the best scorer?Joe Johnson is a predictable ball player and overpaid.Did anyone see the toronto game where jamal just went off?Joe Johnson never and can never do that.Jamal hit a shot from damn near half-court and it was like he could just do it on a daily.Jamal has scored 50 Points with 3 teams i don’t think joe has did that with 1 team.Before Joe came to the hawks he was a nobody,he wasnt making a lot of money,one of the owners didn’t even want to bring Joe to atlanta.He was a Bench Player.Jamal has always started.When he was with the Knicks he was one of the Top guards in the League.Don’t tell me about a joe johnson man,he is not as good as hes put up to be.he needs 25 shots to score 10 points.That is plain bad.Joe is a streak shooter,expecially in the play-off.
Everybody needs to get off of Josh Smith because he has improved his jump shooting.Again larry drew’s offense is not for him.I Admit he doesn’t have a lot of post moves and he needs to work on that but Josh Smith needs to be unleashed.Blake Griffin is.Why Josh Smith Can’t Be?His First 3 Years in the league he was unleashed.The highlights speak for themselves.The hawks feed off his energy.You want to trade a player that brings energy to your team?Wow.But you guys know basketball.They all need better coaching.But you can’t pentalize josh for having a bad shooting night and missing shots because just like Larry Drew said he can’t get mad at josh for talking those bad shots,cause he does so much else for the team its makes up for it.Who in the NBA has a stat sheet like Josh Smith?No one.Steals,Rebounds,Points,Assists,and Blocks.The best Overall Player on the Hawks.You know why he complains and gives up so much?Because people do stupid stuff to put them out the game and he plays hard until that point.If the coach had any sense i would call alleyopp plays for josh because his best ability is jumping and larry drew isn’t using it.UNLEASH JOSH SMITH PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How would it be the highlight factory if Josh Smith was traded?um um um.

superiorblogman

January 28th, 2011
11:59 am

Josh is garbage and discussing Joe is stupid, the only teams that would take Joe’s contract is a team that is 1 player away from a championship, that means they will not be willing to give up much, get it people?

Dooley

January 28th, 2011
12:06 pm

superiorblogman

You Don’t Know Too Much About Basketball

niremetal

January 28th, 2011
12:10 pm

Damien’s locked up for the rest of the season:
http://blogs.ajc.com/hawks/2011/01/28/atlanta-hawks-damien-wilkins-signed-for-rest-of-season/

I wouldn’t have filled that last roster spot just yet. Now we don’t have the flexibility to sign any of the trade deadline afterthoughts who get bought out of their contracts in Feb/March…

niremetal

January 28th, 2011
12:10 pm

Of course, personally I woulda signed Damien in the first place rather than Etan or Poppy Seed. So count that as compounding a previously-made error…

superiorblogman

January 28th, 2011
12:12 pm

Dooley

January 28th, 2011
12:06 pm

superiorblogman

You Don’t Know Too Much About Basketball

Nope it’s actually you that is lost and Josh is extremely overstated and overrated. The coaches around the league will prove that again as he is left off of the all-star team again.

Dooley

January 28th, 2011
12:20 pm

The only reason he would be off the all-star team because its a lifetime achievement award and a popularity contest now-a-days.He was voted the biggest snub last year and if he doesnt make it this year he will be the biggest snub again.Blake Griffin or Kevin Love might not make it but you can’t sit here and tell me there not deserving.Did you watch TNT last night my boy?The truth was told to the whole world why deserving players don’t make the all-star team

niremetal

January 28th, 2011
12:24 pm

“Extremely overstated?” Does that mean that Josh has a tendency to go over-the-top in his blog arguments?

STRETCH

January 28th, 2011
12:24 pm

Losing leads the way they have is on the “CORE” and NOT Woody cause he is not here now. The “CORE” is doing the same things they did last season!

Everyone outside the organization knows what Atlanta needs:

1st – a PG with speed and a Center, they could probably get by without the Center, but come playoff time, Bibby will get roasted again, while Teague sits on the bench whiltering away like AC Law.

2nd – They overpaid for JJ. If you are gonna give a guy that kinda money, he darn well better be giving you 26/11/7 atleast 3 nights a week!

3rd – move JS…the guy is a cancer. Management reminds me of that short fat bald guy with the really good paying job, that drives a 15 year old Taurus, but has a super hot girlfriend who cheats on him and everyones telling him to let her go but he’s to scared to let her go!

Rod from College Park

January 28th, 2011
12:34 pm

vava74,

“There is a reason why Jamal HAS NEVER BEEN involved in winning basketball.”

I agree. He was drafted to the Bulls, when they were in total rebuilding mode after Jordan. Then he went to the Knicks who were in total rebuilding mode after Ewing, then he went to Golden State who might have a couple of winning seasons in their franchise history. So, are you saying is that Jamal Crawford is the reason that none of those teams won (LOL)?

“He is soft, desinterested/unable to play D, poor decision maker, … You name it.”

So these are your thoughts about Jamal, but you attack me when I post things about Marvin? I’m sure it is easy to command a 10 million dollar salary per year in the NBA by having all of those attributes. All those writers and broadcasters that voted him as the 6th man of the year must agree with you also.

“Basically Jamal has never been good structurally for the teams he plays.”

How on earth can somebody like you, who probably never played an organized basketball game in your life, make a statement like that. Did you work in the Bulls front office? What about the Knicks or Golden State? That is strictly an opinion you have formed, with no basis for your conclusion.

The team had more spunk and played more cohesive with Flip.

Again, this is strictly speculation. We won more games with Jamal. You just stated that there is a reason that he HAS NEVER BEEN involved in winning basketball. So did we play winning basketball last year? What is your definition of winning basketball? So by your definition, a team with less spunk and less cohesion plays better? We were better record wise with Jamal.

“These are facts. Even more evident that Marvin’s alleged prejudicial effect on the team.”

Nothing that you stated was a fact, it was all speculation. What I stated was a fact. Marvin returned, and we lost. That is true, and can be verified. Your hatred for Jamal has actually made you so delusional that you can not determine the difference between an opinion, and a fact. Jamal’s team actually won a Rucker Summer League title. Does that count? You did not put any limits on it, you just said winning basketball.

Dooley

January 28th, 2011
12:44 pm

I Agree Wit You Brah.They need to start dogging Joe Johnson cuz he slick sorry

O'Brien

January 28th, 2011
12:51 pm

“Now we don’t have the flexibility to sign any of the trade deadline afterthoughts who get bought out of their contracts in Feb/March…” nire .

Agreed. But when was the last time the Hawks picked up anybody after the trade deadline? And except for the Bibby deal, I can’t remember the last time the Hawks made a trade during the season.

To comment on the Jamal discussion, Jamal is Jamal, and its good to have someone like him on your bench (imo). His role is bench scorer, and he plays his role well.

However, his HC has to monitor his minutes (and the game flow) very very closely, because if Jamal is cold, he will try and shoot his way out of it, which will take the team out of it.

RealSquawk

January 28th, 2011
1:01 pm

superiorblogman

More than a month man? A lesion that is there for more than month and then you decide there is a problem? Your know different from the Hawks mgt!

E43

January 28th, 2011
1:18 pm

I think the hawks biggest problem has been playing not to fail and not playing to learn to succeed. an example would be between Jeff Teague and rondo.

rondo was clearly the weakness along with perkins. but the difference is boston hot potatoes the ball to him no matter what. if they were pressured they would get the ball to a guard but only as a last resourt. you would never see garnet(smith) leading a break or even Perkins (Al).

I just wont sit back and buy LDs excuse of Teague not playing as fast as he’d like. Teague can dunk and outrun everyone. u cant have a fast-break with everyone but your true point guard touching the ball and then blame the point guard about him not playing fast enough. i just find it unacceptable and disappointing because this it is the easiest problem to fix.

if you give Teague the touches he would have on any other team even as a third string then i’m sure you’ll learn a few things. just don’t treat him like a rook anymore

ag

January 28th, 2011
1:24 pm

A couple of season’s ago, the Hawks turned the corner with the Mike Bibby trade. The previous year, they improved when Flip Murray joined the team. Last year, we improved with the addition to Jamal Crawford. Every year of improvment, the Hawks added a player who was a major contributor. Etan, Pape Sy, Wilkins, JCII, and Josh…….combined don’t average 10 ppg

Astro Joe

January 28th, 2011
2:05 pm

ag, they brought in a new head coach… that was the GM’s big move this summer. But I can understand why that may not register as a team-altering move.

niremetal

January 28th, 2011
2:20 pm

So on paper, at least, Poppy Seed is doing better in his last few games with the Flash: 12ppg and 4.2 rpg. The most impressive stat is that he’s shot .647 from the floor during that span. The least impressive is that he’s averaging only 0.8apg (so much for having him spend time at PG).

A few good games in the D-League doesn’t make wasting a roster spot and a buyout on him a good decision, though.

Astro Joe

January 28th, 2011
2:59 pm

nire, well according to the head coach, Pape Sy is a PG and JC2 is not.

Ray

January 28th, 2011
3:08 pm

Big Ray nice article man as always

As for the Jamal Crawford situation and just the team in general I feel like we don’t need someone like Jamal on this team any longer. Yes I understand that he’s helped us to a 50 win plus season last year, but based off this season alone, and even though Woodson is gone he is playing very sub-par.

He’s been wanting a contract I understand, but to me he shouldn’t get it at least from us if I were the hawks I’d cut my ties with him right now before the all-star game. I feel like the hawks are about to make a huge trade soon, but as usual ASG and Sund prove me wrong lol.

In all honesty Mike bibby should go too, but is Steve Nash the right trade guy is 37 years old or something on that line, but he does know how to run an offense.

Astro Joe

January 28th, 2011
3:09 pm

My distorted dream is to watch the Heat lose to the “boring” old Spurs in 4 games in the Finals this summer. All of those casual basketball fans would be forced to watch the Dreamgirls dominated by team-oriented ball featuring one of my all-time favorites as he gets his 5th ring. But after watching the Heat play last night, they may not get out of the 2nd round unless they act like they are playing something other than a pick-up game.

niremetal

January 28th, 2011
3:21 pm

Astro,

I would love to see that too. But sadly, I don’t think you’ll get your wish – I don’t see the Heat making it out of the East.

Ray

January 28th, 2011
3:45 pm

I think that’s what we’d all like to see @Nire and Astro Joe

Then again it’d be a bit of Deja vu all over again remember 2007 lol the boring team vs. the high-flying smash mouth b-ball team. Ended with a 4-0 sweep it was funny to watch.

Question for anyone what are the chances that the Spurs could at least match or beat the Bulls 72-10 record? In your opinions.

niremetal

January 28th, 2011
3:50 pm

Li’l Ray,

No, for one simple reason: Pop doesn’t care about regular season record. He wants to win a title. Assuming the Spurs keep this up through late March, they’ll lock up home court advantage and he’ll rest his starters for the rest of the year once that happens. And if they dip a bit and don’t lock up home court, then they will fall off the pace to beat the record. Either way, I don’t see them winning more than a pathetic 64 or 65 games.

niremetal

January 28th, 2011
4:13 pm

“[Ravin] patched the hole in Smith’s psyche with texts containing affirmations such as ‘You don’t need their approval, so stop looking in their direction.’”

Someone please find Mr. Ravin and smack him upside the head. With a baseball bat.

Astro Joe

January 28th, 2011
4:13 pm

I agree withnire. Pop will put those guys on ice in April. I did hear recently that he decided to “open up” the offense this year, and they said that has been one reason for their success. Simply a terrific organization. I recall that the Hawks interviewed an assistant GM from the Spurs many moons ago… oh well, why would you want to hire anyone associated with that franchise?

Astro Joe

January 28th, 2011
4:15 pm

nire, there you go being mean-spirited again. Simply destroying his cell phone would be equally as effective.

niremetal

January 28th, 2011
4:19 pm

AJ,

The scuttlebutt is that the guy in question (Dennis Lindsey) will succeed RC Buford as GM when Buford steps down (presumably in 2012, when Duncan and Pop are expected to retire). Teams have been going after Lindsey for years, but the Spurs really want to hang onto him because all of Buford’s other competent assistant GMs (Ferry, Blanks, Pritchard, and Presti) have been poached by other teams during the past decade.

niremetal

January 28th, 2011
4:20 pm

Forgot another: Dell Demps in New Orleans.

Astro Joe

January 28th, 2011
4:31 pm

nire, I don’t remember, was that when they hired BK or when they hired Sund that Lindsey was supposedly in the mix? I won’t re-visit the most recent GM hiring, as I recall that we alledgedly were turned down by more than one up-and-comer.

niremetal

January 28th, 2011
4:36 pm

AJ,

That was in ‘08, for Sund. I don’t remember who was in the mix for BK. At the time, I just remember thinking it was funny that they hired the GM who had taken the Hawks for a ride on the Gasol-for-Shareef deal.

Ray

January 28th, 2011
4:45 pm

Oh yeah btw can the ATL hawks now be sold to someone who cares about spending money to make a team better? I was just reading the article about how the hawks aren’t tied to Phillips anymore.

niremetal

January 28th, 2011
4:49 pm

Ray,

Hate to break it to you, but you won’t find anyone willing to spend the luxury tax on a team that has yet to break through to the conference finals. No team has. Ever.

O'Brien

January 28th, 2011
4:54 pm

If the Hawks did not hire Rick Sund, would any other team have him on their potential candidate list? I don’t think so.

Sure, he has made some good trades, but leading up to his Hawks hiring, his recent draft history was spotty at best (Robert Swift, Petro, Saer Sene lead the way), and his recent coaching hires (Bob Hill, Weiss) were spotty (at best).

I think Hawks wanted a GM who would not rock the boat, or tilt the boat over. After all, they really love their core.

O'Brien

January 28th, 2011
4:58 pm

Found this interesting note in the ESPN story that talked about Sund and Hill being fired from the SOnics.

Bob Hill had the support of many of his players, most notably Allen, but publicly clashed with Watson and Damien Wilkins. during the season, and pushed Sund for personnel moves that never materialized.”.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2848273/

niremetal

January 28th, 2011
5:42 pm

O’Brien,

I would bet almost anything that Sund would have another GM job by now if the Hawks hadn’t hired him. I think everyone underestimates the esteem in which he held from his prior gigs with Mavs, Pistons, and Sonics. His time with the Mavs in particular was impressive – Harper, Aguirre, Blackman, Donaldson, Perkins, and Schrempf were all All-Star quality players in their day. Lots of ink has been spilt talking about how that team would have a title but for the fact that they had to get through the Lakers at their peak. And memories in the NBA are long because the circle of executives is so small – most of them were around back then. Before his time with the Hawks, his repeated failures to draft or sign a decent center in Seattle was the only real black mark on his record.

I actually don’t think he’s done more than an average job with the Hawks. But his career as a whole has been very impressive.

superiorblogman

January 28th, 2011
6:03 pm

RealSquawk

January 28th, 2011
1:01 pm

superiorblogman

More than a month man? A lesion that is there for more than month and then you decide there is a problem? Your know different from the Hawks mgt!

Well, I once had what a thought were bumps, went to the doctor about 3 weeks after they appeared and didn’t go away, that doctor sent me to another, and another, and another, until the doctor total got to 5 within a span of 10 months and they still misdiagnosed it. Doctors are not reliable and you guys always end up sounding stupid because you never ever get full details before you come with unwarranted and ignorant opinions. The point remains the same and that is Sund and the ASG are doing nothing to fix the problems, but I must admit, looking at my own story, they could do everything in their power and it may still end up a bad situation. Only someone that has never been through anything thinks that action alone will solve every situation, but its sad that Sund holds on to that theory.

O'Brien

January 28th, 2011
6:26 pm

nire,

What do you think of Sund’s recent history though (since 2000). I think teams are looking for young up and comers to be their GM these days, which is why I don’t think teams would have hired him.

Keith

January 28th, 2011
6:47 pm

I say go get CP3, he was upset the Hawks did not draft him, and I think he would be willing to come to the A…..you can give up Teague and Bibby and go ahead add throw Marvin in there to make the deal complete.

niremetal

January 28th, 2011
6:51 pm

O’Brien,

You’re just plain wrong about “young up and comers.” Most GMs are suits now, same as they always have been. That goes doubly for the times at the top – Riley (Miami), Walsh (NY), Kupchak (LAL), O’Connor (Utah), and Nelson (Dal) are all guys who’ve been around the league a decade or two. Lon Babby (Pho) has been a superagent for years. Most of the “young guns” were promoted internally (Presti, Grant, Morey, etc). Others were brought in on the suggestion of a head coach (Cho in Portland, Demps in NO). Sports teams hire their executives mainly through networking, just as every corporate profession. Others are former players for the team who maintained a relationship with the team’s front office after retirement, and eventually were tapped as GM. You almost never see “young guns” getting hired as GMs with teams they have no prior relationship. I actually can’t think of a single example.

niremetal

January 28th, 2011
6:52 pm

And before you say “the Knicks a team at the top,” I’ll just say that along with BOS and LAL, getting a gig with the Knicks is the most coveted gig in the league.

Ken Strickland

January 28th, 2011
7:11 pm

BIG RAY-I have to take him hat off to you on this article. I’ve advocated trading JaCrawford for PG DHarris, but unless the Nets/Denver trade goes through, and CBillups is included, I doubt if they’ll trade DHarris. I have a very strong feeling the Hawks are going to stand pat and wait until the season ends and the CBA is resolved before making a move.

After all, that strategy will free up $15.1M(Jamal-$10.8, MEvans-$2.5M, JCollins & EThomas $.9M each=$15.1M). Bibby’s $5.56M contract then becomes a very tradeable expiring contract. We could certainly do a sign and trade with Jamal, and there’s no guarantee we won’t trade Smoove as well, if we get what we want and need in return. I would love to see us go after C TChandler and PG DHarris, or PG JCalderon.

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
7:49 pm

Who in the NBA has a stat sheet like Josh Smith?No one.Steals,Rebounds,Points,Assists,and Blocks.The best Overall Player on the Hawks.You know why he complains and gives up so much?Because people do stupid stuff to put them out the game and he plays hard until that point

Really? How about when he’s missing jumpers with 16 seconds left on the shot clock?

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
7:51 pm

Ken Strickland ,

I think you’re right. Freeing up money and seeing what the CBA brings sounds like Hawks managment thinking. Not that I know what they think…..

Meanwhile…..

LOL at Amare Stoudamire pulling a Rick Mahorn on Al Horford early in the game. Two thoughts on that:

1) Amare doesn’t have the beef to guard Al in the post.

2) Al won’t go for that again.

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
8:04 pm

HOLY CRAPPOLA….

New York is getting a single-handed Crawford beating!

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
8:05 pm

The great thing about this first quarter flurry is that the Hawks are doing nearly all of it in the paint.

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
8:20 pm

That never gets old – a mad dash down the court ending in an alley oop for Josh Smith.

niremetal

January 28th, 2011
8:22 pm

Big Ray,

You said it @ 8:05. Man, I hope LD is drilling them that THIS is the way to play.

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
8:31 pm

Pretty fun game to watch. Only two things could stop the Hawks – an attack of laziness (on defense) and a case of jumperitis (on offense).

Otherwise, it should continue to be a blowout of sorts, and maybe we get to see Jordan Crawford.

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
8:33 pm

Nire ,

You know, I was thinking that the one time my tired carcass finally blogs live, nobody is around, LOL.

Agreed, I hope LD is drilling this into their heads as well. Especially #5’s formidable cranium…

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
8:34 pm

Almost didn’t recognize Mo Evans with the head band on.

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
8:35 pm

Now…..how many Hawks would laugh if LD, referring to the whole scoring in the paint thing, says this:

“Keep doing this! This $hit works!”

Astro Joe

January 28th, 2011
9:13 pm

At the risk of pouring cold water, much like the Knicks aren’t following up a good win last night with a competitive effort tonight, let’s hope that the good feelings of tonight’s game aren’t short lived. Hawks have played well on back-to-back games and Dallas is no joke, but I would hate to be on the wrong end of a blowout tonmorrow.

Toney Douglas may not be a “PG of the future” but he is a “strong defender of the now”. A former ACC defensive player of the year with the ability to knock down set-shots. And drafted AFTER Teague.

Astro Joe

January 28th, 2011
9:14 pm

Knicks are chipping away and LD will have to go to the bench soon.

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
9:14 pm

Al Horford destroying the Knicks on the boards.

Joe destroying them in the scoring column.

Josh just had to shoot one bad jumper in the game. Just one ….

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
9:19 pm

AJ you called it.

Bet we don’t see Teague or Crawford tonight, either. Just thought I’d say that…

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
9:21 pm

Good move by Horford. Now the Hawks have to remember that the Knicks can’t stop them in the painted area without fouling hard.

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
9:25 pm

And Douglas makes an arse of Jamal yet again.

Knicks getting back into it with….defense? Come on guys. This is one epic fail that I just couldn’t take. Somebody get Damien Wilkins in there.

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
9:27 pm

That was awful. Joe pounded it almost in place for several seconds…followed by a missed jumper.

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
9:28 pm

Jamal and Hawks bailed out by a lucky bounce…

Want more luck? Knicks are one of the few teams more likely to jumpshoot themselves in the foot worse than us.

Astro Joe

January 28th, 2011
9:31 pm

OK, the starters had to put things back in order. Joe had one of those “iso-flashbacks”. Let’s hope that is behind him now.

Astro Joe

January 28th, 2011
9:32 pm

Where do we get a Landry Field? Pick #31?

Astro Joe

January 28th, 2011
9:33 pm

Josh doesn’t need to look at LD after shooting in the paint.

Astro Joe

January 28th, 2011
9:37 pm

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
9:37 pm

Glad to see the Hawks still trying to grind it out from inside out. Hawks need to hang in there and pressure the Knicks. Felton and Stoudamire are going to work on us, and it ain’t pretty.

Astro Joe

January 28th, 2011
9:40 pm

Wow, LD benched Jamal for Marvin. Good for him. Big shot for Josh.

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
9:41 pm

I can’t lie. I did NOT want to see Josh shoot that 3 ball.

But he hit it.

He also went Michael Jackson as he went down the court after hitting it…..that won’t be on the highlights…

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
9:42 pm

Yeah, that was most certainly a good move by LD, AJ

niremetal

January 28th, 2011
9:49 pm

And Josh decided to take a contested fadeaway there…why?

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
9:50 pm

GREAT block by Al Horford

niremetal

January 28th, 2011
9:50 pm

WHOA. What happened there?

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
9:50 pm

WHOA…what just happened.

Astro Joe

January 28th, 2011
9:52 pm

Maybe Sund knew that Marvin would be missing games and signed Damien. Wow!

niremetal

January 28th, 2011
9:52 pm

What got into Marvin? He was having a good game. It looked like Shawne Williams said something to him, but I can’t figure out why on earth he’d decide to shove him in response in that situation.

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
9:55 pm

I’ve never seen Marvin like that. Ever. Clearly he was pissed off.

Looks like some minor nudging/pushing as Marvin Williams and Shawne Williams went down the floor. Marvin then elevated it to shoving (along with some words), and Shawne came back at him. Then the punches started.

Looks to me also like Marvin got nailed before they went up the floor (during/after Horford’s block on Stoudamire). Marvin had had enough.

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
9:56 pm

Right or wrong, Marvin seems like he was in “I’m not going to get punked” mode.

niremetal

January 28th, 2011
9:58 pm

Horford was right there, but it looked like he didn’t realize what was going on until they were already throwing punches at each other. MC will HAVE to get us the scoop on that.

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
9:59 pm

Whoooeeee. Well, that’s that.

I may be wrong for saying this, but I’m glad to see Marvin show some fire, even if it was misplaced (but was it?), or rather mis-executed. He played well tonight. Well enough to finish the game.

Astro Joe

January 28th, 2011
9:59 pm

Yeah, we haven’t seen that much fire out of Marvin sense, well, we haven’t seen that much fire out of Marvin ever. I hope his head doesn’t explode.

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
9:59 pm

‘Night y’all. Looking forward to the scoop on this tomorrow, LOL

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
10:00 pm

Dang good performances by Joe, Al, Josh.

Big Ray

January 28th, 2011
10:07 pm

It’s gonna hurt not having Marvin for tomorrow’s game. I have no doubts that he will be suspended.

Watching the replay yet again….LOL…Marvin was like a teased dog…dude was peeeiiiisssed!

niremetal

January 28th, 2011
11:55 pm

My guess on what got Marvin pissed: Shawne is in favor of healthcare reform and Marvin isn’t. (h/t to NineOhTheRino at Hawksquawk).

Btw Ray – what’s up with the blog font? For some reason all my posts are showing up in bold. Just on this page, not on MC’s blog or any others.

dap01

January 29th, 2011
8:26 am

What is the direction of our team? Has anyone figured it out?

niremetal

January 29th, 2011
9:37 am

Josh’s jumpers watch update:

vs. Cha: 2-5 (0-0 on 3s)
vs. Mil: 1-9 (1-5 on 3s)
vs. NY: 3-4 (2-3 on 3s)

Total: 6-18 (3-8 on 3s)
FG%: .333
eFG%: .417
eFG% vs. season avg: -.022
vs. ’09-’10 avg: +.132
———————————————————
I didn’t count an in-the-paint turnaround jumper that he airballed down the stretch because, well, it was in the paint. It was terrible shot selection, though.

O'Brien

January 29th, 2011
11:41 am

AJ,

Douglas was a 2 time all-defensive ACC team member. And the fact that he was a senior means he had way more experience than JT0. Hindsight is 20/20, but based on what we need (and are not getting) from Teague, Douglas might have been the better pick for us.

O'Brien

January 29th, 2011
11:50 am

I’m happy for the win, but disappointed in the way we let the Knicks back in the game. Our starters played heavy minutes, but it hasnt bothered them all year (we’re something like 11-3 in the second night of back to backs).

Too bad the Pistons didnt take care of the Heat (missed an alley-oop dunk in the final seconds), but Orlando lost, so we pick up a a game on them.

Marvin is the least important player out of our top 7, so his suspension shouldnt hurt the team much.

As for the Dallas game tonight, I look for Dallas PGs to have huge nimbers against Bibby, but I think Hawks will hang around and have a chance to win.

Ken Strickland

January 29th, 2011
12:49 pm

At this juncture in the season, it’s become obvious that LDrew intends to rely heavily on Bibby as his starting PG, so to continue complaining would be beating a dead horse. I hope Marvin’s ultimate suspension doesn’t go into effect tonight, because with CButler out, he’ll provide us with an advantage at SF.

Since JKidd and JTerry aren’t big on driving the lane, maybe Bibby will have an easier time on DEF. JJ is really playing well. Not only is he scoring more, he’s doing it more efficiently while still leading the team in assists.

doc

January 29th, 2011
5:06 pm

ken i guess that serves as your mea culpa on the teague saga and strategy and riches you saw in him this summer with the new coach. ;-)

thus far, teague doesnt have what it takes to stay on the court, there have only been faint suggestions he gets it thus far. it wasnt just all about woody, sorry it wasnt. still young and should have been a senior at wake building his game and confidence and carrying a team. shame we took him instead of a few others available at the time he was taken. he is all the more wealthier for it. hope he invests well and is frugal.

well marvin had a pretty good game with reasonable numbers and found his lost dog too while he was away. whodda thunk it, marvin the enforcer?

Astro Joe

January 29th, 2011
5:57 pm

OB, remember a few days ago Teague said something like “no one has told me what I need to do to get consistent minutes”? I suggested at the time that he was probably not accurate with that statement. And then a few days later, MC empties his notebook and LD is talking about how he tells Teague how to use his speed to play the game on both ends of the court (I’m paraphrasing).
So what’s the deal? LD is willing to tell MC but not the player? Doubtful.

Again I ask, who is conductung these interviews during the pre-draft workouts?

Hawks need a really good 48 minute effort tonight against a very good team. Let’s see if they bring some fight with them to Dallas.

O'Brien

January 29th, 2011
7:56 pm

AJ,

Let’s assume LD hasn’t said anything to Teague. He told MC what he expects from Teague because MC asked him.

IF LD has not said anything to Teague, that also means Teague is not going to LD and asking him what he needs to do.

If you are a new hire/young executive at a company, and you really want to impress your new boss and co-workers, but nobody is telling you what you should be doing, aren’t you going to see your boss?

Aren’t you going to ask questions like what are the company’s expectations of me, what can I do to help, what do I need to improve on etc.

Teague needs to take some initiative and go see LD (imo).

But it does make you wonder about the pre-draft interview. I wonder if the same people who interviewed Teague for the Hawks also interviewed Marvin?

O'Brien

January 29th, 2011
8:46 pm

Mavs are going at Bibby almost every time down…

O'Brien

January 29th, 2011
9:34 pm

7 minutes, 0 points, 3 fouls for Bibby

6 minutes, 5 points for Teague.

Teague needs to keep it up, because if he plays like this consistently, it will be hard for LD to not give him more PT

O'Brien

January 29th, 2011
11:22 pm

Hawks have lost 18 games so far this season. Out of those 18 losses, there have been 9 games where we failed to score more than 19 points in the fourth.

At Orlando, 19
Verses Utah, 17
At Miami, 16
At Detroit, 19
At N.O., 15
At OKC, 15
Verses N.O., 14
At Bucks, 15
At Dallas, 13.

We cannot win games where we struggle to score in te fourth, especially since our defense is horrible.

This is very similar to what happened to the hawks last year. I guess the motion offense does not work during crunch time, because there alot of ISOs in the fourth.

niremetal

January 29th, 2011
11:26 pm

Josh’s jumpers watch update:

vs. Mil: 1-9 (1-5 on 3s)
vs. NY: 3-4 (2-3 on 3s)
vs. Dal: 1-4 (1-3 on 3s)

Total: 5-17 (4-11 on 3s)
FG%: .294
eFG%: .412
eFG% vs. season avg: -.027
vs. ’09-’10 avg: +.127

JOE

January 30th, 2011
1:54 am

Screw the fans.Joe Johnson is laughing all the way to the bank.

N.D.T.K.A.

January 30th, 2011
2:08 am

No one talks about the Hawks defense. L.Drew’s problem is he is trying to outscore opponents. Defense wins championships as the cliche goes.

For all the good Mike Bibby has done this season as a PG and a knockdown shooter, he make the Hawks predictable and mucks up a lot of the chemistry when he is on the floor. For example, good teams know to score against the Hawks play pick-and-roll basketball with Bibby’s man (usually the pg) and Bibby can’t cover. Bibby either switches or they move Joe or Mo over to the other teams PG. This messes with the rest of the team trying to recover on defense. Just play Teague take the lumps and let him learn. Teague can develop his jumper in the off-season. Let him play and learn and live with the growing pains at least Teague can defend his man.

Also, with Josh playing at SF and the fact that he is an excellent passer keeps Josh on the perimeter too much. I think Josh feels intimidated by Al playing in the PF spot. This again is L. Drew’s fault. Make Josh get on the block and overpower most of the other smaller SF he plays against.

Larry Drew is the problem when the team is not focused and fall back on similiar bad habits. L.D. said at the beginning of the year guys would be held accountable for not playing defense. What happened to that? Offense is fine, the Hawks need to stop falling in love with jump shots!! Take the ball to the hole!!!

Even playing half-a@@ basketball the Hawks can beat 70% of the teams with offense and athleticism. Just think if they played good team defense and a some disciplined basketball, they would probably be a top five team in the league and a much higher seed in the East.

Ken Strickland

January 30th, 2011
3:50 am

Over the last 5gms our starting PG has averaged 28.2MPG, 6PPG, 3.1PPG, and is 2-6 in FT’s. We can’t be anything but inconsistent as long as LDrew insists on giving so many mins to someone that’s providing so little offensive production and even less on DEF. While Drew is playing mind gms with Teague, and jerking him around with limited mins and inconsistent playing time, Bibby is starting to disappear before our eyes, and he’s hurting the team.

vava74

January 30th, 2011
5:53 am

Rod,

Your arguments are basic and lame.

So, poor little Jamal was always in the middle of rebuilding franchises…

“Valuable” young players are not traded when teams are rebuilding, they stay as part of the rebuilding procedure.

He was DUMPED by all of his teams: DUMPED.

“Guys who are not good never get 10 million in this league”

Are you f*cking kidding? Do you want me to make a list of players worse/even more detrimental than Jamal who earned huge out of proportion pay checks?

E. Curry, D. Coleman, S. Francis, S. Marbury, Jerome James, B. Haywood, JR Rider, Glenn Robinson, … you name it.

You could build 10 rosters just in the last 10/15 years with overpaid players whose talent=actual contribution assessment was WAY WRONG.

Jamal is one of them: he is talented, but ultimately detrimental if overly used (no more than 20 minutes per game and that is already a stretch for a solid playoff team and 10/15 minutes max for a ECF candidate).

vava74

January 30th, 2011
6:00 am

Last night was another perfect example of Jamal’s contribution:

2nd game in the last 3 in which he plays the WHOLE 4th quarter and the Hawks score only 15 points or less.

36 minutes, 11 points and 0 (ZERO) helpvalue (assists+steals+blocks+rebounds – turnovers).

12 minutes in the 4th: 0-1 FG 0-1 3ptFG 2TO 1stl

Dept. of Unintended Idiocy

January 30th, 2011
9:41 am

Guys who are not good never get 10 million in this league

So I’m guessing you’d also agree that guys who are not at least above average never get $7.5M in this league, right?

niremetal

January 30th, 2011
10:09 am

The final tally for JJ in January:

26.0 ppg, 4.8apg, 4.5 rpg
.504 FG%, .548 EFG%, .584 TS%, .354 3P%, .823 FT%,

Rod from College Park

January 30th, 2011
11:18 am

vava74,

“Your arguments are basic and lame.”

But they are facts not speculation.

“Valuable” young players are not traded when teams are rebuilding, they stay as part of the rebuilding procedure.

Yeah, the great Joe Johnson, Chauncy Billups, Ray Allen, Jason Kidd, Al Jefferson, Tracy McGrady, Steve Nash (most Valuable player)……… come to mind. Guess none of these guys were valuable huh. (LOL)

“He was DUMPED by all of his teams: DUMPED.”

Actually he was traded.

“Guys who are not good never get 10 million in this league”

If you are going to post something as a quote from me, it’s not a quote if you change it. You stated, “He is soft, desinterested/unable to play D, poor decision maker, … You name it.” I simply responded to your quote by stating that players with all those negative qualities usually don’t command 10 million per year in the NBA. All of the players you listed don’t have all those negative qualities either. Again your opinion of Jamal was speculation and not fact.

“Jamal is one of them: he is talented, but ultimately detrimental if overly used (no more than 20 minutes per game and that is already a stretch for a solid playoff team and 10/15 minutes max for a ECF candidate).”

I would compare Jamal on our team, to Vinnie Johnson from the Pistons championship teams. Guess what? He played over 25 mpg during their run. His field goal percentage during their championship years was 46% one year and 43% the another year. Not much difference than what Jamal does for us as a 6th man whose job is to come off the bench and score. I don’t recall Vinnie being a great defensive player either. I guess Chuck Daily had no idea what he was doing. Again you make another stupid statement which is not factual.

“Last night was another perfect example of Jamal’s contribution:

“2nd game in the last 3 in which he plays the WHOLE 4th quarter and the Hawks score only 15 points or less.”

There have been numerous games that Jamal has played the WHOLE 4th quarter, and was one of the main reasons that we won the game. Why post 2 games and try to validate your argument. Let me help you out. Jamal playing the whole 4th quarter was not the reason we lost those 2 games (LOL). Bad shot selection, ISO basketball, our point guard not being able to get us into our offense early in the shot clock, and poor coaching would be my guess.

Your arguments are speculation and not based on any basketball knowledge or fact. You, and your Ringling Brothers partner DOUI, should continue to post ignorance because you surely are some CLOWNS.

Big Ray

January 30th, 2011
11:48 am

I don’t know what’s up with the font on this blog.

But I do know that Rod has had some very effective arguments with Vava.

Big Ray

January 30th, 2011
11:50 am

Dept. of Unintended Idiocy

January 30th, 2011
9:41 am
Guys who are not good never get 10 million in this league

So I’m guessing you’d also agree that guys who are not at least above average never get $7.5M in this league, right?

okay…if you can’t laugh at that, then you just DO NOT have a sense of humor.

Rod from College Park

January 30th, 2011
11:56 am

Big Ray,

It was clever. Too bad it was not a quote. It was a made up quote by a Clown.

niremetal

January 30th, 2011
12:34 pm

Lemme try something here.

Bold
Not bold.

niremetal

January 30th, 2011
12:34 pm

Yeah that didn’t work. Time to call the webmaster, Ray…

niremetal

January 30th, 2011
12:35 pm

Or not? Maybe it was just on that last page. Weird.

O'Brien

January 30th, 2011
1:54 pm

Last year, the Hawks lost 29 games. Of those 29 losses, we failed to score more than 19 points in the fourth quarter 11 times .

This season, despite the motion offense, we are struggling even more than we did last year in the fourth quarter.

Of our 18 losses this season, there have been 9 . games where we failed to score more than 19 points in the fourth.

That is unacceptable. If you cannot score in the fourth, and you cannot stop the other team from scoring, how are you supposed to win?

As long as we have Bibby and Jamal on the court together in the fourth quarter, we will always be inconsistent.

O'Brien

January 30th, 2011
2:07 pm

Ken S,

You’re right. Bibby’s averages/numbers the last 5 games have been downright horrible.

29 mpg, 5-18 from 3 (28%), 12-32 from the field (38%), 6 ppg, 2 apg, 4 rpg (and 1 FT TOTAL in 5 games).

His January numbers are not pretty either.

32 mpg, 8 ppg, 3 apg, and 3 rpg, and he only shot 39% from 3.

But look on the bright side, he has a really good assist to turnover ratio :wink:

lamar

January 30th, 2011
3:12 pm

the hawks do need to make a move. not a huge move, but one that makes sense. point guard! no superstar, but a general. hawks lack attitudefrom that position. another coach on the court. but we as fans can criticize ownership, subs, and drew. but we as atlanta hawks fans don’t even support this team. lets face it. we probably won’t get a chris paul. and we can’t blame ownership for not trying. we went years without winning. we complained. we win. we complain. but we don’t go to the games. more empty seats then fans. 13 wins is what we endured. losing for 10 years. we are what is missing. this team can’t win a championship. but they do win games. how many games we as fans help them lose. I wouldn’t want to play hard when the fans don’t care. we are hawks fans! give some love before we bash everyone in the organization. did we do ours. if we go to games, maybe they can make a move. its been 4 years of winning and no fans. love what we have so they can move forward. or we going to lose it all! stop it atlanta fans.

Mantis

January 30th, 2011
3:23 pm

I would like to encourage everybody to start following and supporting the Atlanta Dream, the reigning WNBA Eastern Conference Champion, next WNBA season. The dream have become what the Hawks could have become many years ago, and they have done it in less time, with less resources. They have real superstars that consistently bring real results.

Let’s look at how the Atlanta hawks flushed a potentially good season down the toilet
1. Overpaying Joe Johnson, who is about to turn 30 years old and has never demonstrated the ability to win a championship.
2. Failing to acquire a free agent during the summer of 2010
3. Failing to sign Shaquille O’Neal, who was interested in coming to the Hawks, but is now having a great season with the Boston Celtics.
4. Drafting Jordan Crawford, only to let him rot on the bench despite his impressive feat of scoring over 30 points in his first game in the league.
5. Letting Maurice Evans get minutes over Jordan Crawford (seriously, why do we still have Mo Evans?)
6. Passing up Byron Scott and Avery Johnson for Larry Drew.

I am wondering if ASG is in cahoots with David Stern and is intentionally punking the Hawks so they can find an excuse to sell them to another city. The mediocrity of the Hawks is the result of bad decisions that a fourth grader would not have made.

Mantis

January 30th, 2011
3:25 pm

Also, I want to see Joe Johnson’s contract. It doesn’t make sense that Jordan Crawford is being railroaded so badly. I think that there is something in Joe Johnson’s contract that is limiting Jordan’s minutes. And I also wonder if Joe Johnson is having an affair with one of the ASG members.

niremetal

January 30th, 2011
4:45 pm

drmaryb *_*

January 30th, 2011
4:47 pm

I’m still shocked that J-Smoov got fined for grabbing his penis.

Ken Strickland

January 30th, 2011
7:15 pm

DOC-If Bibby had to earn his mins based on the same criteria we’re using to judgeTeague, he’d have an even harder time getting off the bench. It’s not that I see so much in Teague, I just see a whole lot more in him than I see in Bibby. As least one can reasonably say Teague has the potential to get better in all areas if given more consistent mins and support, but we all know that’s not the case with Bibby. With Bibby, we’ll most likely get less, not more, as the season progresses.

I just don’t understand the idea of dismissing Teague and his potential just because he’s not giving us more, but we’re somehow perfectly willing to accept even less from Bibby. After averaging 28.2MPG over a stretch of 5gms and giving us 6PPG and 3.1APG, why in the hell aren’t we demanding more from Bibby? What exactly is he doing that demands he be on the floor up to 30+MPG? His scoring, as well as his ability to score, is decreasing, and his DEF will always be an issue, no matter how much effort he puts forth.

Bibby isn’t giving us much NOW, and he’s certainly not going to give us any more in the future, so what’s the agenda? Teague, and virtually every other player drafted, were drafted based on POTENTIAL. As desperate as we are for improved PG production, all of a sudden we’re willing to throw all of that out of the window in favor of an over the hill PG that’s slow, unathletic, offensively/defensively limited, that has given us nothing but mediocrite for the last 1.5 seasons.

A CHAIN IS NO STRONGER THAN ITS WEAKEST LINK, and everyone knows Bibby is our weakest link, which is why teams target him relentlessly.

doc

January 30th, 2011
10:43 pm

ken, i am on record for not being that impressed ever with the acquisition of bibby always thinking he was grossly overpaid for what he brought and would have preferred that money spent elsewhere. unfortunately i was always dismissing the law pick and have never seen anything of ongoing substance with teague in there. sadly bibby has been the lesser of the evils that have trailed this organization since doc and mookie. i like woody and ld would hitch my wagon to bibby with the lack of other choices management has provided.

dirty

January 31st, 2011
1:08 am

I like da fact da Williams got into a fight, now if he can produce some points. Williams is a waste of roster slot for the Hawks. I think he need to produce before the trade deadline or they need to deal him while someone out there want him. We need a lil spark on our team and stop getting pushed around. Just when you think Smith is growing up he goes out and do something stupid, this kid have all the talent in the world, he can be better than C Anthony if he work on his game, attitude and work habits durning the offseason. He shots 3s when he souldn’t and he’s satisfied where he’s at right now.

dirty

January 31st, 2011
1:09 am

Marvin Williams for Marcus Camby

O'Brien

January 31st, 2011
7:14 am

doc,

When Woody was let go, one of the things Gearon said was he didnt think Woody gave Teague enough PT. It will be interesting to hear how they feel about LD and Teague this season.

I agree that Bibby is the lesser of 2 evils, but his January numbers are down, and his last 5 games have been horrible. If that trend continues, Hawks need to either let Teague play and take his lumps, or bring in another PG.

Bad basketball weekend for the Hawks. Celtics won, Miami won and Orlando won, so Hawks drop another game back in the standings.

As the season continues, it looks the Hawks will be in the battle for 3rd, 4th, or 5th seed (with 4th or 5th being most likely).

O'Brien

January 31st, 2011
7:16 am

Props to Kevin Durant calling out Chris Bosh.

Said Durant “Just because Bosh is on a good team now, he thinks he can talk trash.” Kevin went on to add “There are alot of fake tough guys in this league, and Bosh is one of them.”

doc

January 31st, 2011
8:16 am

o’b OH, but you forgot he didnt make any to’s in five games playing over 150 minutes without one. ;-)

Astro Joe

January 31st, 2011
9:45 am

In the Dallas game, the Hawks were up by a point (I think) headed into the 4th quarter. LD took ALL 3 captains out to start the quarter. A few short minutes later, the game was lost and the starters couldn’t put Humpty-Dumpty back together again. LD needs to figure out how to substitute in a manner that keeps at least 2 captains on the floor in the 4th quarter. As OB pointed out, we officially have at least as big of a 4th quarter-scoring problem as last year. Jamal is NOT sufficient to hold the line to begin the 4th quarter. History has already shown that Jamal and 4 guys named Moe isn’t a winning recipe.

I wouldn’t mind seeing someone like DeShawn Stevenson paired with Teague on the bench next season.

Mr Mojo

January 31st, 2011
9:54 am

The only problem with thsi team is ownership. They refuse to make a move to put this team over the top. The answer is nto trading one fo your core players the answer is putting the right role players around this core which these owners and gm refuse to do. They need inside toughness which everyone knew they should of signed Shaq for toughness and most important leadership. But besisdes that they just wont add anyone. Do they think people are stupid? Do you really think you are going to win in the playoffs with guys like Collins, wilkens and Evans coming off the bench? The just refuse to add players to not go over the luxury tax and its a crime cause this team with the right role players could be very dangerous in the playoffs. But as is now most likely will be same result as last 2 years and if they face Orlando in the first rd we may not even get out of the 1st rd. Time for ASG to step up and help give this team a better chance in the playoffs or sell the team to someone who will.

Mr Mojo

January 31st, 2011
9:55 am

Sorry for spelling. typing on my iphone while I travel to work.

doc

January 31st, 2011
9:59 am

mr mojo, i hope you are taking marta to work.

vava74

January 31st, 2011
10:23 am

Rod,

Lame, lame, lame!

Your arguments are pitiful and guess what?? Completely wrong:

“All of the players you listed don’t have all those negative qualities either.”

All the guys I mentioned as huge contract mistakes suffer from the exact same problems that Jamal does and that I pointed out:

All play(ed) little or no D, either by being inept or disinterested and were/are notoriously soft and self absorbing: Marbury, Derrick Coleman, Eddie Curry, Glenn Robinson, JR Rider, Francis, …

Name one of this guys who was ever known to be a team-first player and played any good or at least earnest D.

The only thing Jamal has as an advantage with regard to these guys is that character wise he seems to be a good guy and the guys above were/are mostly idiots and pricks.

Jamal makes the exact same bad decisions, maybe without being himself a selfish prick, but the end result is the same: his bball is mostly courtyard basketball.

“Yeah, the great Joe Johnson, Chauncy Billups, Ray Allen, Jason Kidd, Al Jefferson, Tracy McGrady, Steve Nash (most Valuable player)……… come to mind. Guess none of these guys were valuable huh. (LOL)”

Nash signed as a free agent, he was not traded. Cuban made a huge mistake by not opening the purse and match the contract offer from PHO.

JJ was a sign n trade: meaning that he was traded because HE demanded or he would leave as a FA.

On these two, what is exactly your point?… ummm… none, right?

Tracy McGrady has been a loser all his life: zero playoff series won. Another excellent example of individual talent + big contract – no heart, no D = ZERO success.

Where do you want to go with this example??? McGrady is just a “better Jamal” which is still NOT GOOD ENOUGH..

Billups was traded when he was not even seen as a good player. He was a journeyman until he joined the Pistons and flourished there LATE in his career.

Ray Allen is the only good example I concede: he was traded by MIL for virtually nothing. But is this enough for you to boast?

Kidd was traded by Dallas (when young) for a package that included Finley and Cassell, both well established players that went along to have many productive years after the trade.

Not a lopsided deal.

Later Kidd was traded when already old in a trade many consider a mistake by Dallas and a good trade by NJ.

Again, not a good example.

Al Jefferson was traded for Garnett, so give me a break will you?

And… guess what, Al is still a sub par defensive player and a guy with many issues. It’s not like Utah is tearing it with him at the middle.

I would call Jefferson a semi-Jamal playing in the post. Talented, yes, but where are the wins?

Jamal? Jamal has been traded ALWAYS for little to nothing (wikipedia with my commentaries):

“Professional career
Early career
After being drafted in 2000 as a freshman by the Cleveland Cavaliers, he was traded on draft day to the Chicago Bulls for their pick, Chris Mihm. Whoooaaa!!!

After four seasons in Chicago, prior to the 2004–05 season, he was traded (along with Jerome Williams) to the Knicks for Dikembe Mutombo (who was 80 years old already), Othella Harrington, Frank Williams and Cezary Trybanski (3 powerhouse players don’t you think?).

Golden State Warriors

On November 21, 2008, Crawford was traded to the Golden State Warriors for forward–center Al Harrington. (Similar players here – talented, but ultimately not useful to their teams’ success)

Atlanta Hawks

On June 25, 2009, Crawford was traded to the Atlanta Hawks for Acie Law and Speedy Claxton. (what great value GS got here !!!”

Give me a break Rod. To know how to put a ball in the hoop and having played organized but ultimately amateur bball does not make you an expert on what is necessary for NBA success.

Facts are facts: Jamal has not made his teams better.

As for 47 wins (Flip) – 53 wins (Jamal), here are some differences:

Al’s improvement/growth;
A LOT less injuries ;
Smoove not shooting 3 pointers;

Look at the Hawks’ defensive stats and see the marked decay with Flip to with Jamal.

As for Vinnie Johnson:

Vinnie was a better rebounder and a better passer. Check the stats.

Also, beyond stats: Vinnie got his points when it mattered, in crunch time or early 4th. And you pointed out well that he averaged 25 minutes per game.

Jamal averages 30+ and often plays 35.

Jamal scored last year mostly in runs during the late 1st and 2nd quarters. Look at http://www.82games.com and see his last year’s clutch stats (last 5 min of the game + OT).

It’s true that he had a few very good games for us this year but even a broken watch is right twice a day.

Jamal is not a catastrophe, don’t get me wrong, but his ability to contribute should be carefully assessed and his talent harnessed.

IF, LD used Jamal wisely (no more than 20/25 minutes per) he could stay, but he is too much of a temptation that goes wrong most of the time.

niremetal

January 31st, 2011
11:37 am

Vava, providing a second example (the first being me) of the need for filibuster reform on the blog ;)

Mr Mojo

January 31st, 2011
11:47 am

Also, Lets not forget we needed an experienced coach and instead went with a first time coach because he is the lowest paid coach in the NBA. Once again, the ownerships unwilling to spend the extra dollars to put them over the top. There was no point in giving JJ a max contract if you are not gonna fill out your roster the right way.

O'Brien

January 31st, 2011
12:32 pm

vava,

Although LD deserves some of the blame for overplaying Jamal, 2 other players deserve some of the blame; Marvin and Teague.

If Marvin would perform more consistently, then he would get more minutes (especially in the fourth and down the stretch). The better Marvin plays, means the less JJ has to play SF, so less minutes would be available for Jamal at SG.

Teague is involved as well, because if would play well more consistently, then he would get more minutes at backup PG. As it is right now, Jamal gets some of the backup PG minutes.

AJ,

I think LD made the same mistake in the fourth quarter of the Bucks game (the starters did not come back in until the 8:25 mark). By then, the other team has all the momentum, and we dont have the discipline to execute on offense, and we dont have the ability to play well on defense.

He may need to have at least 2 starters in there to start the 4th.

O'Brien

January 31st, 2011
12:36 pm

doc,

Based on what I have seen the last few games, I think Collins should get some more of ZaZa’s minutes.

So far, our bench has not gotten the job done, and this is why I think Hawks need to trade Jamal if it allows them to add more bench depth.

Marvin off the bench will help, but I dont think Jamal and Marvin will be enough.

Maybe Jamal’s salary can be used to improve 2 bench positions.

vava74

January 31st, 2011
1:07 pm

OB,

I understand LD: his first coaching gig and he is scared of taking chances and losing.

That does not make him right, though. And it’s a pity.

DMad

January 31st, 2011
2:17 pm

The issue dates back about 5 to 7 years ago when Billy Knight was the GM. We drafted the same position atleast 5 times in a row and now we’re paying for it. Sund didn’t have a choice but to pay Joe Joe, or lose him and recieve nothing. We have a bunch over payed slash forwards who don’t do anything great outside of AL so I am through with the Hawks. They can not get any of my hard earned cash until the owners and management get it together I’m done. I have nothing to look forward to atleast the Falcons had a chance and Mr. Blank wants to win, it seems like the Atlanta Spirit Group is just happy to own a team.

Rod from College Park

January 31st, 2011
3:11 pm

vava74,

You took up a page on this blog, and still have not proved anyone of your ridiculous statements to be true. All fluff but no meat. I’ll destoy you one more time.

“Valuable” young players are not traded when teams are rebuilding, they stay as part of the rebuilding procedure.

I listed a number of valuble young players that were traded from teams that were and are rebuilding. You went in to a long drawn out explanation of why the players I listed were traded, but the fact still remains that your statement was false.

“Ray Allen is the only good example I concede: he was traded by MIL for virtually nothing. But is this enough for you to boast?”

I was not boasting, I was responding to a bugus statement you made. Thanks for conceding. One player makes your statement false.

“All the guys I mentioned as huge contract mistakes suffer from the exact same problems that Jamal does and that I pointed out:”

Whether their contract was a mistake or not is irrelevant, and stating that guys like Derrick Coleman, and JR Rider suffer from the same problems as Jamal on the basketball court is an absurd statement.

“All play(ed) little or no D, either by being inept or disinterested and were/are notoriously soft and self absorbing: Marbury, Derrick Coleman, Eddie Curry, Glenn Robinson, JR Rider, Francis, …”

Do you know these guys personally? Funny to me that you can make statements on these guys personality flaws based on watching games on TV.

“Tracy McGrady has been a loser all his life: zero playoff series won. Another excellent example of individual talent + big contract – no heart, no D = ZERO success.”

So a guy who comes straight out of high school to the greatest basketball league in the world, becomes a 2 time NBA Scoring Champion, a 7 time NBA all star, voted 7 times to the All NBA team, was at one time one of the top 5 players in the league, and has made over $150 million dollars playing basketball is a loser for his whole life, but you are a winner. Love to know what you do for a living. Then to make it even worse, you bash Jamal Crawford, and Tracy McGrady, but stand up for Marvin Williams. So let me ask you this, would you take Tracy McGrady in his prime, or Marvin Williams in his prime? Marvin has won a playoff game, so that makes him a winner right. LOL

“Facts are facts: Jamal has not made his teams better.”

He has not made them worse either.

“Look at the Hawks’ defensive stats and see the marked decay with Flip to with Jamal.”

So you believe that our defensive stats have decreased because we don’t have Flip, and we have Jamal? I guess Bibby getting older and becoming more of a defensive liability has nothing to do with it? Coaching and switching our bigs on every play had nothing to do with it either huh? Teams making adjustments, and us doing the same thing for the past few years had no effect? I would have to disagree with your assertion.

“Also, beyond stats: Vinnie got his points when it mattered, in crunch time or early 4th. And you pointed out well that he averaged 25 minutes per game.”

Hate to inform you of this, but all points matter in a game. If you subtract 2 points that were scored in the first quarter from the end of the game total, you end up with 2 less points.

“Jamal makes the exact same bad decisions, maybe without being himself a selfish prick, but the end result is the same: his bball is mostly courtyard basketball.”

No Homo. I’m hoping that your courtyard basketball reference is not related to a much bigger and more concerning issue, but I digress…. If you do respond again, please stick to the points, and stop posting irrelevant articles and non supporting facts. Your research abilities don’t impress me especially if they don’t support your original statements.

Rod from College Park

January 31st, 2011
3:13 pm

Big Ray,

Release my post. I’m not retyping my response to the guy from Ringling brothers.

Ken Strickland

January 31st, 2011
3:29 pm

DOC-we’re not that far apart as far as our feelings and opinions on Bibby or Teague. I agree with you that ALaw wasn’t the answer, but he could have provided us with more production than he did if he’d been given the opportunity. He became the victim of 2 massive ego’s, and a power struggle between former GM BKnight and HC MWoodson. Woodson insisted on wanting a vet PG to run the half court, jumpshooting style of OFF he invisioned, and BK wanted a younger, quicker, faster PG to run the style of uptempo OFF he invisioned.

I feel the current starting lineup has just about reached it’s ceiling, and for it to get better some changes have to be made. The 1st change needs to be at the position of greatest weakness, and that’s PG, and JTeague is our only option at this point. I don’t see Teague becoming an All Star caliber PG, but he certainly has enough talent and skill to give us enough OFF/DEF production to drastically improve our starting lineup.

If Drew has no intention of making Teague an intrigal part of the rotation, we need to seriously consider figuring out a way to make a trade for either PG JCalderon or DHarris. If Toronto is interested in clearing salary, they could be very interested in getting rid of Calderon’s $9M salary. We could give them Bibby’s $5.56M salary, which becomes a very tradeable expiring contract after the season, and combine it with our $3.6M trade exemption.

Toronto would immediately save $3.44M, and could trade Bibby’s expiring contract after the season for draft picks. It would get us the PG we need, along with tremendous flexibility by allowing us to retain MEvans’ $2.5M & JaCrawford’s $10.8M expiring contracts.

Since it’s obvious the Mavericks are sold on TChandler as their starting center, they might not want to continue paying Heywood $6.9M to be a backup. I believe Zaza and MEvans’ expiring contracts might get it done. We’ve certainly got to do something, because Bibby can’t take this team anywere, expecially during the playoffs.

I don’t see Bibby as the lesser of two evils, but rather the lesser of the potential that could be realized by going with someone else.

Ken Strickland

January 31st, 2011
3:56 pm

DOC-If a PG does as little as Bibby does, and:
1-allows 2 other players(Jamal & JJ) to control the ball and the OFF as much or more than he does,
2-seldom penetrates or goes below the 3pt line with the ball in his possession,
3-limits his OFF production to hanging out at the 3pt line shooting 3’s,
4-never challenges defenders that pressure him, or tries to beat anyone off the dribble,

why wouldn’t he have 0 TO’s in 5gms, since he’s not really taking any chances or doing anything of note. I’ll bet there’s not a single PG that couldn’t go a 5 gm stretch without a TO if they committed to playing as conservatively as Bibby does. Imagine how much better DWilliams or CPaul’s assist to TO ratio would be if each decided not to go below the 3pt line with the ball in their hands, handled the ball less the 50% of the time, refused to beat anyone off the dribble, gave the ball up as soon as a defender applied any DEF pressure, and limited their OFF to shooting 3’s?

Zero TO’s over a 5gm stretch, and a limited offensive production that almost matches.

doc

January 31st, 2011
4:03 pm

ken, of course the zero to’s response to o’b was tongue in cheek info. yes, i saw the fallacy in that start like everyone else probably that you pointed out.

Astro Joe

January 31st, 2011
4:30 pm

Bibby has physical limitataions. Teague (seemingly) has mental limitations. Most performance managers are not going to reward someone who has a willingness issue. Bibby is willing to defend, he just doesn’t possess the physical tools to do it particularly well. But if you watch him, he does what he can… he tries to funnel his man to help defense, he tries to take away the opposing player’s strong hand… he does what he can but he isn’t as effective as we all wish. Teague, on the other hand (and based on LD’s recent comments to the beat writer), hasn’t shown a wilingness to play as instructed by his boss. So until he does, his boss isn’t likely to reward him with playing time. How can you expect to manage 13 other players if you allow a guy who willingly doesn’t follow instructions playing time? That’s the one and only power an NBA head coach possesses, distributing playing time. If LD gives that one chip away while Teague haf-heartedly follows his direction, then what else is left to use as a stick? Isn’t that how Josh became an undisciplined 7th year player, because the previous head coach didn’t correct behavior by denying playing time? (At least there was enough good Josh to move the team forward despite appearances from bad JOsh… the comparable good Jeff hasn’t made a team-altering impact).

At this point, this isn’t an LD problem nor a Bibby problem. The issue srests between Sund and Teague. Teague either needs get himself together or Sund needs to address the inconsistent PG play. But until one of those things happen, I say we hope for the best between Bibby and Jamal as our primary PGs.

And Biby wasn’t a penetrating PG at 25, it is just short of stupid to expect him to become that at this age.

niremetal

January 31st, 2011
5:16 pm

I agree with AJ re: Teague and Bibby. Bibby is a savvy (and strong for his size) defender, just not a quick one. Teague is the exact opposite – very quick and athletic, but neither strong nor smart. We don’t see what happens in practices, only what happens on the floor. If Player X is bad on the floor, I don’t see why it makes sense to argue that he should be playing more unless we have some supersecret inside knowledge that Player X is a practice superstar. That’s why I always have had a tough time saying “player X should be getting some of player Y’s PT” based on a need to “develop” player X or based on a perception that “because player Y clearly sucks, player X must be better.”

To be blunt, Teague has just flat out sucked during most of his time on the floor. He can’t shoot, he bites way too easy on ball fakes, he defends with his hands rather than by moving his feet, and he looks downright lost in transition both on offense and defense. The potential is there, but the execution isn’t even close. It’s not even a matter of consistency. He is consistent. He consistently sucks.

Bibby, for all his flaws, won’t do anything that affirmatively hurts the team. Like AJ said, he tries to funnel his man to the left and/or to the help on D. He doesn’t always succeed because his footspeed is so far gone, but at least he knows what he is supposed to do and makes a good-faith effort to do it. On offense, he still is great at the things he always has been great at – leading the fast break (apologies if there are any remaining blind people who think he rarely leads the break), knocking down open shots, setting screens (he’s been the best guard in the NBA at screens since Stockton retired), and running the pick and roll with Horford (a play that still isn’t called nearly enough). Yes, he’s having a cold streak shooting. But Teague’s been having a cold streak shooting for 16 months, so I don’t see that as a reason to bench Bibby in favor of Teague.

Until I see something from Teague on the floor, I won’t join the people calling for him to get more PT.

doc

January 31st, 2011
5:40 pm

nire, ditto dat. best option we have to date, just hope he rewarms his three ball sooner rather than later. count me among the blind because he doesnt lead the break too often or his assist numbers might be up a bit. assists have never been his forte anyway.

ATL FAN

January 31st, 2011
5:55 pm

Yet another great article, good stuff.

niremetal

January 31st, 2011
6:43 pm

Doc,

As you probably know, the guy who leads a successful break does not usually get an assist because 1) there usually are at least 2 passes (and basketball doesn’t have a 2-pass assist rule like hockey does…or so I’ve been told…); and 2) a foul is almost as common an end result as a field goal, and you don’t get an assist for a pass that leads to a foul.

Ken Strickland

January 31st, 2011
7:02 pm

DOC-like I said, we’re not that far off. Even though it might appear that I’m making a big issue of Teague over Bibby, it’s not. My issue is over us not taking full advantage of both, and to do that Teague needs to get more MPG and Bibby fewer.

NIREMETAL-Your attempt at an unbiased assessment of Teague vs Bibby fell way short. First, when it came to Teague, you went into detail pointing out all of what you see as his PERCEIVED shortcomings, especially on DEF. Yet, when it comes to Bibby, instead of making mention of his numerous flaws, you state, “BIBBY, FOR ALL HIS FLAWS, WON’T DO ANYTHING THAT AFFIRMATIVELY HURTS THE TEAM.” He’s not doing very much to affirmatively help the team either.

You criticized Teague for using his hands rather than his his feet on DEF, but you didn’t make mention of Bibby’s almost total reliance on using his hands, since, as you stated, “HE DOESN’T ALWAYS SUCCEED BECAUSE HIS FOOT SPEED IS SO FAR GONE.” Teague has the ability to improve on his DEF shortcomings, but can you honestly say the same for Bibby? How in the hell can our perimeter DEF improve if Bibby can’t improve his DEF? If we seriously expect to improve defensively, we need actual improvement and results, or at least the potential for actual improvement and better results, not just GOOD FAITH EFFORTS, which we all know is the very best we’ll ever get from Bibby and is way short of what’s needed.

Your claim that Teague CAN’T SHOOT is nothing more than a biased PERSONAL ASSUMPTION, and isn’t supported by any facts whatsoever, since there’s only a .2% difference in their FG%(BIBBY/TEAGUE FG%-44.5/42.5). Since when does a .2 difference in FG% make one a solid shooter, and the other one unable to shoot period? Because of Teague’s ability to beat defenders off the dribble, get into the lane draw fouls and get to the FT line, he can afford to have a FG% that’s .20% less than Bibby.

And don’t forget, in 11.9MPG Teague’s 1.9APG is only 1.8APG below Bibby’s declining 3.7APG in 30.3MPG. Teague’s PER is 12.9 to Bibby’s 12.1. On a prorated basis, Teague is as good in some areas as Bibby and better in others. Aside from his 3PTFG%, TO ratio, and the outstanding picks he sets, there’s absolutely nothing that proves Teague isn’t capable of outproducting Bibby if given the prerequisite mins. With a .65FT%, it might be good that Bibby doesn’t get to the FT line that often.

doc

January 31st, 2011
7:06 pm

some points are there at the end like nash, c paul etc. the fact he isnt there suggests to me he is not able to keep up nire which he doesnt. i consider the former leading a fast break not giving it up to josh smith and al to take it in. if there is one guard that does it is jj on this team or jamal. guess you see it how you want and interpret it the way you want. in basketball the first pass out of the defensive zone dosent court for much since usually it is a 2 on 3 or 1 on 2 situations where the guard is trying to take the defense to him with his quickness to leave an easy basket for the trailers.

vava74

January 31st, 2011
7:26 pm

nire,

With all due respect, Bibby is no longer starter material.

Still a very useful player, probably could be a top back up.

But the PG game we need to take the next step is what Teague showed in BOS.

Not coincidentally, either Jamal or JJ were injured. Or both?

LD had no option and the kid responded and did it on a tough environment.

Dejay

January 31st, 2011
8:07 pm

We all know what the problem is with this franchise. I think a poster said it best when he stated that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. That link is the ownership group, known as the Notorious A.S.G.

This group reminds me of a guy who finds his way into a hot club but since he’s such a cheapskate, he brings his own pimento sandwiches and a canned soda from Walgreens. He thinks he’s impressing everyone by telling folks how much he’s saving by not spending $$$ on the food there but they’re looking at him as if he should be in line outside with the other wannabees. By the end of the night, he finds himself on the wall, alone, and wondering why no one wants to be around him.

Case in point. The folks running this team want all the bells and whistles that the REAL elite teams in the league have but don’t want to pay the price they did in order to get there. They are totally satisfied with keeping the status quo and not doing anything that may take them out of their comfort zone. Why you think they followed up the JJ signing by bringing in a bunch of minimum-salary guys and giving the head coaching job to the assistant, only to hand him the lowest salary among NBA coaches?

It’s obvious to everyone who knows basketball that this team has fatal flaws that will show itself come playoff time (again). When it isn’t Smith trying to be Reggie Miller or JJ resorting back to his ISO-Joe days, it’s a laughable bench outside of Crawford and Marvin being, well, Marvin. All the city is waiting on is for the folks in charge to show us a sign that what they have isn’t enough and they’re willing to do what it takes to get to the next level. But knowing the history of this bunch, I wouldn’t hold my breath. Why?

Because these owners are a bunch of ‘wangstas’. They talk tough about what they want to do and how everyone in town should treat them making the playoffs as if its manna from heaven. Can you imagine Arthur Blank telling the paying public after the Green Bay loss that it if they had bought more $50 tickets and $8 beers, they would’ve gotten XYZ player? That’s like Ford or GM refusing to improve their products until more of the same, inferior ones were sold; huh???

So we’re stuck with a mediocre product and a mediocre group trying to sell it to the masses as if they’re the Lakers, Celtics, or Spurs. Good luck with that idea, ASG. It’s no small wonder why Philips stays empty more times than not…

Najeh Davenpoop

January 31st, 2011
9:24 pm

“I used to cry about the team’s lack of b-ball IQ but now I believe it is less IQ and more discipline. They know, they just too often don’t do. That doesn’t come from a lack of energy, it comes from a lack of discipline. They know that the salad is a better option than the bacon cheeseburger, they just choose to go with satisfying their craving much too often”

Great post.

Najeh Davenpoop

January 31st, 2011
9:28 pm

Based on Rick Sund’s comments at Hoopsworld, it doesn’t look like any of our patience is going to get rewarded any time soon.

O'Brien

January 31st, 2011
9:34 pm

nire,

Count me in the blind as well, because I dont see much of Bibby leading fast breaks.

How many times has Bibby led a one man fast break? He has 43 FTA in 48 games, so how many times has he gotten in the paint?

How many times does Josh and Al bring the ball downcourt on the fast break, while Bibby comes up the court and sets up by the 3 point line?

Maybe its just my perception, but I think he is lacking in the “leading the fastbreak” department.

O'Brien

January 31st, 2011
9:38 pm

Some of the good stuff from Rick Sund (from the Hoopsworld article).

“If you can get 50, that’s generally home court and that can get you through the first round and you’re kind of one of the elite teams.

Chemistry is so important, and if you look at San Antonio, in some ways they’re analogous to us,” Sund explains. “They got through the first round last year and got swept in four. We got through the first round last year and got swept in four. They didn’t really make any major changes and we didn’t make any major changes..

They’re a more veteran team than us, we started the season with three starters who are 24 or younger in Horford, Josh and Marvin. Joe, Bibby and Jamal .are all in their primes, so that combination is good. But we think continuity and chemistry are important for us, just as they have been for San Antonio.

When you’re all-pro you’re one of the top 15 players in the league.”.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=18628/

JJ was third team all NBA, so based on that recognition, he would be top 15.

How was that Chemistry last year Rick? And how about the fact that we still cant score in thr fourth quarter?

And how about the fact that the Spurs know they have the players to win a title because they have done it before. What do the Hawks know, except in the face of playoff adversity, they hang their heads.

And Rick thinks Bibby is in his prime? Interesting.

O'Brien

January 31st, 2011
9:41 pm

Ken S,

I’m with you on LD needing to limit Bibby’s minutes. but I am concerned that Teague has not shown him enough in practice and during the game to make LD reward him with consistent PT.

The blame cannot be put all on LD. Teague has to step up his play too. And if Teague can’t, then Rick and LD need to bring in another PG who can.

niremetal

January 31st, 2011
9:49 pm

O’Brien,

Yup, you and Doc are blind if you don’t think Bibby leads the break often. It’s only in the warped minds of the overenthusiastic fans of our bigs (you know, the ones who think Josh/Al have McHale/Parish potential) that Josh and Al lead more than a fraction of our breaks. I wish I had the MySynergy link to provide the exact stats, but last year those two were the ballhandler on something like 15% of our fastbreaks last year. Reality is that you notice whenever Josh and Al lead the break but choose to ignore it for whatever reason when Bibby and JJ do.

niremetal

January 31st, 2011
9:57 pm

On a prorated basis, Teague is as good in some areas as Bibby and better in others.

There’s a reason the stat-obsessed crew have backed off on using per-minute stats as a projection of what someone at the end of the bench could produce as a starter – there are far more false positives than true positives. Teague gets virtually all of his minutes against other teams’ second units. Put him against other teams’ first units, and he’d look even worse than he does right now. And right now, he looks terrible.

Astro Joe

January 31st, 2011
10:05 pm

On this team, Bibby is a starter and a finisher.

doc

January 31st, 2011
10:08 pm

if only josh and al had bird instead of marvin and dennis johnson instead of bibby. heh heh

niremetal

January 31st, 2011
10:10 pm

Doc,

Flip that and ask yourself: What if Bird had to settle for Josh and Al instead of McHale and Parish.

doc

January 31st, 2011
10:38 pm

in a very cursory look, josh’s numbers fit pretty well over mchale even though he entered the game at the age of 23 and was a sixth man for awhile whereas josh has started and excelled right out of high school. total numbers for josh are going to be huge for his career. remember i said the sixers were stupid to think josh wouldnt out produce brand over the length of the contracts, same will be true for the careers of josh and mchale.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mchalke01.html

doc

January 31st, 2011
10:46 pm

statistically horfod is holding his own with parish as he continues to develop his game.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parisro01.html

we remember the big three in their prime not on the way up playing with the greatest teammate ever in one of the storied franchises in the history of the game. it is hard to put al and josh in the context of that but wait until their careers are over to see what they do in a very different era of the nba. that is a very pragmatic view.

O'Brien

January 31st, 2011
10:57 pm

“Put him against other teams’ first units, and he’d look even worse than he does right now. And right now, he looks terrible.”nire .

Fair enough. But on the flip side, put Teague in the game with the Hawks starters, and see how he looks.

I think he would look alot better playing with JJ, Josh and Al than he does with Jamal, Powell and ZaZa.

As for Bibby leading the break, my perception is even if he does lead the break, he slows down once he crosses half-court, and gives the ball up, not really putting pressure on the defense, because they know he is not going to penetrate.

Ken Strickland

February 1st, 2011
12:31 am

How many times can anyone honestly say they’ve seen Teague have a bad game when he’s played 20+MPG? How many times have we seen Bibby have bad gms after playing 30+MPG? NIREMETAl, DOC, I like Bibby just as much as you guys do, but I refuse to allow that to get in the way of accepting that at 30.3MPG, he’s rapidly becoming both an offensive and defensive liability.

And NIRE, I agree with your assessment of JStockton being outstanding at setting picks for a PG. However, he also:
1-Penetrated
2-Beat defenders off the dribble
3-Controlled the ball and the OFF
4-annually registered high assist totals
5-consistently scored in double figures
6-held his own defensively
7-got steals
8-challenged and broke down DEF’s
9-regularly got to the FT line
10-created easy scoring opportunities for his teammates

The Atlanta Hawks need a PG that does more than:
1-set picks,
2-restricts his OFF to shooting 3’s almost exclusively,
3-gives little more than a GOOD FAITH effort on DEF,
4-run phantom fast breaks

Tell me NIRE, during the 4th quarter of the Dallas gm, where were all of those pick and rolls you say Bibby is so good at running with Horford? Where was that leadership you’re always referencing, when Horford got only 2 shots the entire quarter? The reason it happened, and has happened in the past, is because the only thing Bibby usually runs during the 4th quarter of gms is to the 3pt line, because he usually turns to ball and the OFF over to JJ and/or Jamal in the 4th quarter.

THERE’S NO ONE BLINDER THAN HE WHO WILL NOT SEE.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
1:15 am

Ken,

Sorry, but I have zero interest in engaging in a discussion with you on Bibby.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 1st, 2011
1:24 am

“Bibby, for all his flaws, won’t do anything that affirmatively hurts the team.”

I guess single-handedly destroying the entire team’s defense and getting spun around like a top on a regular basis by people who were playing in Euroleague last season doesn’t count as something that hurts the team.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
1:31 am

Doc,

If all you look at is stats, then Glenn Robinson is a borderline Hall of Famer. Stats don’t begin to show that McHale and Parish were elite-level on ball defenders. They don’t show that McHale’s low post repertoire – possibly the best in NBA history – opened the floor up for Bird and his teammates because opposing defenders had to be ready at all times to collapse on McHale. They don’t show that Parish was one of the best-shooting big men in the game’s history.

McHale and Parish were first-ballot Hall of Famers. That’s something that can only be said about 32 players in the entire history of the NBA. Josh has yet to make an All-Star team (and he won’t make it this year, his 7th in the NBA). Al has only made one. If Al finds away to play another 20 seasons in the NBA – ie if he matches the longevity of the peerless Parish – then maybe he has a shot. But saying Al’s numbers look good now is like saying a player will win a marathon because he’s leading after 400m – sure, it’s possible, but the hardest part is still a long way away.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
1:36 am

I guess single-handedly destroying the entire team’s defense and getting spun around like a top on a regular basis by people who were playing in Euroleague last season doesn’t count as something that hurts the team.

I don’t agree with either of those statements. He is a major concern in our team’s defense, but plenty of teams have overcome the presence of a poor defensive starter. The Hawks’ defensive problems run far deeper than Bibby. And I don’t agree that he gets “spun around like a top on a regular basis,” least of all by poor players. He gets beaten, sure. But he usually manages to funnel his man to the help in the process and rarely commits a foul. In any case, he doesn’t defend so badly that a better defensive team couldn’t overcome his presence.

O'Brien

February 1st, 2011
7:42 am

“He is a major concern in our team’s defense, but plenty of teams have overcome the presence of a poor defensive starter.” nire .

How many of those poor defensive starters were PGs? And how do we define “overcome”? Made it to the ECF? NBA Finals?

My take on Bibby is this. Over the last month, he has not played well and is hurting the team. However, he has played well enough in the past, and despite his limitations, he has earned the trust of his teamates and coaches. Teague has not.

As much as I think Bibby’s minutes should be limited, it looks like Teague has not earned the trust of his teamates and coaches. Until that happens, I can understand why LD is hesitant to stick with him.

I’m a Teague fan, but;

1) one of the owners mentioned that he doesnt think Woody played Teague enough
2) LD came out over the offseason and said the startng PG job is there for the taking
3) LD brought in Nick Van Exel specifically for Teague
4) LD is a former NBA PG whose son is also a PG (in college), and if I’m not mistaken, LD has PG camps.
5) Bibby is struggling

Despite all this, Teague has not been able to earn consistent minutes? I think the majority of the blame is on Teague for not getting it done, because the circumstances have been favorable for him.

Big Ray

February 1st, 2011
7:46 am

I’d put Jeff Teague in with the starters for 25 games before making any predictions about how he would do. If you ask me, such a situation would force him to either play to his potential (whatever that truly is), or play himself off the team. In other words, throwing him to the wolves in such fashion would prove what he is or isn’t capable of, and where he might truly belong in the rotation.

At the same time, 25 games isn’t nearly enough time to truly develop. I continue to refer to the example of Mike Conley, who has only now begun to truly realize his potential. However, 25 games would give some indication of what Teague can or can’t do, or what he can or can’t develop into. The issue with such a sample size is that we act like he’d be playing in a vaccum, which he wouldn’t. We also have to account for the chemistry between he and the other starters, who don’t have perfect chemistry among themselves.

So, we can say he’d look great, or we can say he’d look terrible. And we could be wrong either way, or both ways. Too many variables to work with and I’ll be the first to admit that my crystal ball hasn’t and never will work. Basing how he plays in past sample sizes with limited variables and situtations is a false indication of what he’s likely to do, whether you expect success or failure, in my opinion. You simply don’t know until you try it.

I’ll leave that to Larry Drew, who has the best firsthand knowledge to work with.

As it stands right now, Teague has been determined to NOT be starter material in Drew’s plan.

doc

February 1st, 2011
8:50 am

you know nire, some folks make the same arguments against stockton, who was a point that really led the break that added many assists to his totals, and malone because they never won the big one, that their stats arent good enough to hold them up to the guys who have stats and rings. i personally look at the body of work, what organization they were with, players they went to war with as i make the full assessment of their worth. if both these guys of ours stay healthy then their body of work will rival mchale and the chief irrespective of championships that tend to go along with hall of fame recognition. sometimes the organization has as much to do with it as the player. yes mchale was great though and wont be touched in some areas by josh, mchale also has never thought of doing some things josh has already accomplished because he is a freak of nature as was mchale i might add, due to his agility as a big man and a huge wing span. besides mentioning a major factor in bird as one of the guys they went to war with along with dj which bibby will never approach nor jj, i have already deferred to the celts organization and the culture of the celtics whereas the biggest hindrance is our own culture of the hawks as i have pointed out before as losers now for almost 60 years. these two guys josh and al along with jj have pulled us off the pile that is below mediocrity and from that alone are worthy of notoriety.

josh has continued to work on his game as has al so i can expect more of them as they develop. mchale didnt approach josh’s numbers until he was 27 or so and was a sixth man before entering the starting lineup where josh started right out of high school and didnt get totally embarrassed, winning a slam dunk on the big stage, then saying he wouldnt go back because he wanted to be worth more. now, when was mchale in an all star game at his earliest age?

right now their curve is every bit as good as mchale and chief at this time in their careers. that is all i am saying, have said and will continue to say. i have also been the first here to say trade josh and i continue to say josh needs a sports psychologist to focus some of his energy in a more positive direction so i am not blind to his needs nor a josh worshipper nor apologist. i might even add you are less blind to the overall picture than you were this past summer as you felt we could continue to grow without changes. i am more positive about this team right now than i expected to be and probably more than you and feel pretty good about what could be accomplished and have said so in the past. however, it wont be done without an owner willing to take the risk to spend money to get to the next rung like cuban did, before reaching ecf finals or not. too many worthy teams willing to spend ahead of us in this conference in the heat, magic, bulls and celts to expect otherwise. i am amazed at what these guys accomplish without more commitment from the owners but i am not blind either as to their strengths and weaknesses nor where balance and depth are needed.

as far as cuban you might look to what he has said about the hawks recently in one of ken segura’s notebook blog segments i think it was. pretty interesting take and one i dont think our owners see as the road right now.

vava74

February 1st, 2011
9:17 am

Rod,

You dig deeper and deeper in bullshit every time you post.

So, McGrady is a winner because he earned a lot of money and was a scoring champion, etc…

Nice to know how you measure basketball success. I could even end my post here, but I won’t. :-)

So, successful is how you qualify a guy who was so good that he never won a single playoff series? With more than decent teams surrounding him?

Give me a break! :-D

And do I need to know a player personally to be able to label him “self centered”, “one dimensional”, “soft” and “not team success driven”?

Are you out of your mind? 95% of what we need to know about a basketball player happens on the floor and can be seen on the TV:

Does he make his teammates better? Were his teams winning teams? Does he bring it every single game?

Or does he collect personal accolades and money like McGrady (and Carter) but ultimately he never brings his teams any success and folds under pressure?

A guy with a .435 FG% for his career? that drops to .430 in the playoffs?

A guy with a .337 3pt% for his career (with more than 3000 shots launched)? that drops to .301 in the playoffs?

A guy who averaged 3,21 TO per game in the playoffs?

A concede you that he was/is an above average passer and rebounder. But individual stats are only individual stats.

McGrady is one of the BIGGEST LOSERS ever in the NBA. Plain and simple.

Your argument was that young valuable players get traded ALL THE TIME and I told you that you were wrong.

You only came up with a good example. All others were either FA or NOT YOUNG or ULTIMATELY NOT VALUABLE.

And to add to the bullshit, where did I bring Marvin to the conversation relating to McGrady??

I already told you that Marvin has significant shortcomings and that he is not #2 material, I simply said that your one dimensional focus on Marvin is delusional and I will continue to state this.

Marvin is not on the top 3 of the Hawks problems/shortcomings.

vava74

February 1st, 2011
9:20 am

Ray,

Blog monster didn’t like the word “bullsh!t”

Can you retrieve and amend?

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
9:32 am

I’m sorry, doc. You’re frankly making a fool of yourself every time you defend the comparison, particularly with respect to Josh. You’re putting a guy who has never made a single All-Star team in the same class as two perennial All-Stars and first ballot Hall of Famers who made the list of the 50 greatest players. It’s just baffling that you’re saying they have that kind of potential based on their good-but-not-great body of work to date.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
9:40 am

How many of those poor defensive starters were PGs? And how do we define “overcome”? Made it to the ECF? NBA Finals?

Take your pick. Teams have done all those things with a poor defensive PG. Nash has made the CFs, Jameer Nelson made the Finals, and Tony Parker c.2003 (if anyone remembers his defense back then, I mean it was BAD) won a title. Before that, the Bulls won titles with John Paxson and BJ Armstrong at PG. Derek Fisher is a below-average defensive PG now too, although I’ll grant that he’s not as bad as Bibby.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
9:45 am

And I don’t really see why having a poor defensive PG is more of a hindrance than having a poor defender at another position. People tend to obsess about the PG position far too much. Like I’ve said before, there’s only been 1 team that has won a title in the past 20 years with an All-Star at PG – Tony Parker with the Spurs in ‘07, and TP is not a traditional pass-first PG. The PG position, like the center position, does not carry the same unique requirements that it once did because the roles of players in different positions are so much more fluid now than they once were.

Melvin

February 1st, 2011
10:03 am

Nire,

At least all those PGs you listed, guard the opposing teams PGs. Bibby is too poor of a defender to defend PGs (and that was a choice by two different headcoaches). On top of that, it requires the Hawks to use their best offensive player to defend smaller and quicker players on a nightly basis.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
10:06 am

Melvin,

Against quicker PGs, Phil Jackson put MJ on the PG and had Paxson guard the SG or SF.

O'Brien

February 1st, 2011
10:09 am

nire,

I put more importance on PG defense because of the pressure they can apply to the ball-handler on the perimeter.

I see your point about teams being able to overcome a defensive liability from a starter.

So I will adjust my comment. IMO, the Hawks are not good enough to overcome Bibby’s defensive liability.

vava74

February 1st, 2011
10:38 am

“I’d put Jeff Teague in with the starters for 25 games before making any predictions about how he would do. If you ask me, such a situation would force him to either play to his potential (whatever that truly is), or play himself off the team.”

“Basing how he plays in past sample sizes with limited variables and situtations is a false indication of what he’s likely to do, whether you expect success or failure, in my opinion. You simply don’t know until you try it.”

Praise the Lord! ’cause his words are the wisdom He bestows on us!

“I’ll leave that to Larry Drew, who has the best firsthand knowledge to work with.”

Ignore the words of Satan!!

Melvin

February 1st, 2011
11:09 am

Nire,

I can’t recall MJ playing smaller guards maybe against bigger PGs such as Magic and Payton but I honestly can’t recall MJ doing that. However, I don’t see Phil using Kobe to defend quicker PGs.

doc

February 1st, 2011
11:10 am

nire:

“I’m sorry, doc. You’re frankly making a fool of yourself every time”

nire, it always seems to degenerate to the argument of ad hominem isnt it? throwing ridicule on the other to continue a discussion, is that your straw man?

there is no right answer nire, there just isnt? i conjecture that josh has the potential to be great and recognize his limitations. mchale wasnt a definite finished product when he came out. his first all star appearance was 83-84 season at the age of 27. he avg 10pg as a rook. guess josh has a few more years to catch up there, which is a question i asked of you, when you asked how many all star appearances josh had at the age of 24.

nice summary of mchale below who i respect and dont mean to demean in any way nor parish. can you believe red got both of these guys the same year in 80 for a number one draft pick to join bird two years into his already illustrious career? the warriors could have had both instead getting joe barry carroll. robbery! just the same the trajectory of what both al and josh are doing if they stay healthy and continue to get better as the two of the big three did together could be awesome. they need their own bird or one of them needs to go to get balance as marvin doesnt have the same equipment bird had to make the trio great at a championship level. they are our only true trading chips at this time.

http://hoopedia.nba.com/index.php?title=Kevin_McHale#Career_Statistics

anyway, fun to get to discuss basketball and relive some memories i had of the big three and can only dream we might have in two really good players still coming of age.

Ken Strickland

February 1st, 2011
11:14 am

NIREMETAL-I hope their are no hard feelings, and that you don’t take any of this personally, I mean that. However, you certainly didn’t have any problem engaging me in a debate about Bibby before I made my last 2 very detailed posts. My only intent was to present you with a more detailed understanding of the logic behind the opposing position I’ve taken with you on Bibby and Teague.

I won’t lie to you, I enjoy a good debate, but what some consider a DEBATE, other’s might consider an ARGUMENT. But I do love the challenge of presenting my position against an opposing point of view, and presenting/exchanging facts, stats and logically constructed opinions. Again, I hope you don’t take that the wrong way.

Also, the Pistons won a title with All Star PG CBillups. And who said a team needed an All Star PG to win a title anyway? I stated earlier that I don’t see Teague becoming an All Star caliber PG, but I do see him becoming much more than what we currently have at PG and helping this team improve.

Over the last 18gms, Bibby has scored in double figures only 5 times, and that includes 2gms with only 3pts total and one with 0pts. Just 5gms ago, he was averaging 10.1PPG and 4APG, but has regressed and is now down to 9.7PPG and 3.7APG. I agree with you when you said teams have managed to overcome the poor DEF of their PG’s, and you listed SNash and TParker.

But these PG’s make it so much easier for their teams to overcome their poor DEF by contributing so much more on the offensive end. They penetrate, break down DEF’s, create easy scoring oppotunties for their teammates, accumulate high assist totals, and/or score consistently in double figures, while controlling the ball and the OFF. We’re not getting any of these things from our current starting PG.

It’s funny how one can see an opposing player blow by Bibby and his matador DEF, and then try to defend what was seen by claiming he was FUNNELING. The team could use a hell of a lot less FUNNELING and more MAINTAINING A POSITION DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF HIS DEFENSIVE ASSIGNMENT.

Like BIG RAY said, we need to make a committment to finding out once and for all what Teague can do. We’ve certainly seen enough of what he can do to know he can give us better overall production than we’re getting from Bibby. He also brought up an excellent example in the development of PG MConnor. If we had drafted him, like some of our fans were seriously advocating, do you think he’d be the productive PG he is today after 2 yrs of the WOODY TREATMENT?

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
11:15 am

O’B,

There I agree with you. That’s my point. The Hawks seem to have too many flaws to win a title. A better team could overcome our lack of a serious low post scorer, our lack of a good PG, Marvin’s lack of aggressiveness, Josh’s shot selection, etc, etc, etc. But I don’t think any team could overcome the totality of those flaws. To me, the only truly fatal flaw that the Hawks have is psychological – they lose focus in the second half way too often. That’s why focusing on any one player or one player-related flaw as “what’s keeping us from contending” is pointless to me. The Hawks are bleeding from a thousand cuts, not from a severed jugular.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
11:23 am

Melvin,

Phil Jackson put MJ on Bogues, Isiah, and KJ too. Even later on, he often would put MJ on the opposing team’s PG in key late-game possessions, but that’s a common tactic if the opposing PG is the biggest perimeter threat and your SG is your best perimeter defender. His decision to use MJ on Bogues went unnoticed for years until the Bulls finally met the Hornets in the playoffs in ‘95. That year, it was devastatingly effective. Sam Smith talks about it in Second Coming if you’ve ever read it.

doc

February 1st, 2011
11:33 am

so one can overlay josh’s numbers with mchale with josh starting as an 18 year old; he compares favorably at the halfway point for the number of years mchale was in the league.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3834/career;_ylt=AqQc3UHcUHTfXCGEXs9y6roCPaB4

pretty impressive for a young lad of just 24 is it? now if they can get owners committed to winning a championship…like that which is prevalent in the celtic tradition then we might see hof associated with those guys. no he isnt the best at his position but he continues to work at it diligently and as ld said he was amazed the guy went and learned all the positions in the new offense which no one else did.

now nire, to continue the discussion with players of the same era, would you rather have bosh playing pf for you, who will probably get the nod for the all star game instead of josh or josh though bosh’s numbers clearly are better?

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
11:34 am

Doc,

What is your evidence that age of a player is more important than years in the league? Moses, KG, Kobe, and LeBron didn’t need 7 years to make their first All-Star and All-NBA teams. They needed 1 or 2. Josh has been in the league 7 years. He has 0 All-Star appearances. Zero. Zip. Nada. Nil. None. He has one All-NBA defensive second team selection. That’s his only accolade worthy of note after 7 years in the league.

He regressed from last year (the only year in his career where there were even whispers that he was All-Star caliber) to this year, as anyone who watches the games rather than just looking at the stat sheets (which includes you, presumably) would agree with. To say at this point in his career that he has the potential to be as good as a 7-time All-Star, top 50/first ballot guy is foolish. There’s no kinder word to describe that opinion. Come on, doc. Ask that question of Mike Fratello, Hubie Brown, or someone else who studies the game more than us. Ask them to use a single adjective to describe that opinion. I’d be amazed if the response is any kinder than “foolish.”

doc

February 1st, 2011
11:43 am

it is foolish to put josh in the same category as kobe, kg or the laqueen and i almost said it. some are works in progress some arent as the come out of high school and josh a number 15 draft pick, well the kid has come a long way baby.

now, do you want bosh who is an all star instead of josh or josh as your pf?

heh heh, either answer might be hard for you to stomach nire. ;-)

you might go fifth on me.

Astro Joe

February 1st, 2011
11:53 am

You can’t blame Bibby for his physical limits anymore than you can blame Horford for not being able to adequately defend Dwight Howard. At the same time, Teague isn’t the answer. The reason we haven’t watched Teague play 20-25 minutes with the starters is because LD hasn’t yet decided to “throw a game”. Just because Bibby struggles defensively doesn’t make Teague the answer at PG. It just means that we have a PG problem. Teague would only create a different problem if giving big minutes.

Some of y’all cried last year that Woody didn’t give Teague a chance. Can you honestly say that LD didn’t give Teague a chance in the first 20+ games of this season? Didn’t LD hire an assistant specifically to work with Teague, didn’t he discuss Teague as a potential starter during the summer… hasn’t he tried to give the youngster all kind of chances to earn a spot in the rotation? Can you honestly say that LD has not tried to set this guy up for success (without sacrificing team goals)?

You know how bad Teague is? So bad that he is the 3rd string PG behind Bibby and Jamal DESPITE his head coach’s desire to have him become the team’s starter. He has gone from potential starter to 3rd string PG in about 3 months. Some of y’all need to exit the Teague bandwagon before it crashes into a 6-foot thick brick wall.

Astro Joe

February 1st, 2011
11:58 am

Melvin, remember when Kobe took it upon himself to guard Westbrook during the playoffs last season? Do you not remember all of the “Derek Fisher” is done talk during that Thunder series? Jordan Farmar (young, quick, athletic PG) was cut loose and his job was given to Steve Blake. Our GM still has faith in the young, quick, athletic PG he drafted a few years ago. Me? I’d take Steve Blake (or Chris Duhon, Earl Watson and even Jason Williams).

Rufus1

February 1st, 2011
12:17 pm

The devil we Know(Bibby)..The Devil we don’t(Teague)

People defend Bibby because he is the “Devil they know”…They know his history for hitting big shot and playing big, in big games. THAT IS NOT THE BIBBY WE HAVE!!!!

The Bibby we have is OLD, SLOW and has been missing BIG SHOTS, in BIG GAMES. He is not the Bibby of 7 years ago, please stop giving the benefit of the doubt. He has been brutal recently and no one can tell me TEAGUE WOULD BE WORSE.

We have Sam Cassell as our starting PG and ASG will not stand for this much longer. LD promised to develop Teague and bibby isn’t good enough to justify his lack of playing time.

I EXPECT A CHANGE AFTER THE ALLSTART BREAK.

Rufus1

February 1st, 2011
12:30 pm

Teague is atleast as good a shooter as Brandon Jennings…38%

Jennings started and Ridinour came off the bench.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
12:56 pm

Doc,

A year ago I would have said Josh. Now I would say Bosh.

As for the “work-in-progress” thing, that’s exactly my point. You can’t still be a “work-in-progress” with zero All-Star appearances seven years in the league and have a realistic chance of becoming a first ballot Hall of Famer. You just can’t. Josh won’t make the All-Star team this year, so you’re hinging your assessment of Josh’s potential on the chance that he’ll break through and become a perennial All-Star starting in his 8th year in the league. That’s just foolish. Sorry, but it is.

It’s incredibly rare to find players who make the leap from “good-but-not-All-Star” to “perennial All-Star” level after they’ve been in the league as long as Josh has. The closest example I can think of is Steve Nash, and even he had an All-Star appearance in his 6th and 7th years. Also, Nash was a guy who did 4 years of college, which indicates to me once again that age matters less than experience after you’ve been around the league a few years. Once you’ve been around the league that long, your odds of breaking through to become a superstar are slim, regardless of how old you were when you were drafted.

Find me a player – high schooler or no – who did not make an All-Star game in his first 7 seasons, but went on to become a Hall of Famer. I can’t think of a single one. To expect Josh to do it is beyond foolish, because Josh relies on his athleticism more than almost any other player in the league. Once that starts to go, I don’t see how he will have a prayer of making an All-Star game, so I have a very hard time seeing where all this “potential” is.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
1:00 pm

To clarify on Josh/Bosh, the reason I would take Bosh now is my newfound opinion that it’s time to change for the sake of change. Also, like it or not, Bosh has been called a franchise player for years. Josh never has.

O'Brien

February 1st, 2011
1:08 pm

“I’d take Steve Blake (or Chris Duhon, Earl Watson and even Jason Williams).”Astro .

With Orlando paying big money to Jameer and Arenas, I think Chris Duhon
can be had for the TPE. That would give us a backup PG, and it would allow Orlando to save some money off their $90 mil payroll. The bad thing is, it would put ASG into luxury tax.

J. Williams has been released by Orlando, and he is a Florida guy. I think the Hawks could get him for cheap to be another backup PG option (especially when both Bibby and Jamal are struggling).

However, the Hawks are at 15 players already, with Etan and Sy occupying the 2 last spots. I think Hawks should have left one spot open.

doc

February 1st, 2011
1:35 pm

very little info on bosh whereas i know you have said over and over he was very over rated. is that really your opinion or just a follow up to a different topic?

doc

February 1st, 2011
1:52 pm

yeah nire i dont remember you ever saying bosh was franchise material. durant didnt seem to think it either.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
1:58 pm

Doc,

I don’t think I’ve ever said Bosh was very overrated. I put him in the same class as guys like JJ, Garnett, Pierce, Gasol, etc – good enough to be the clear alpha dog on a playoff team, but has to have another alpha dog alongside him whose game complements his own in order to contend. I think that last year was the only year in Josh’s career where I’d have rather had Josh than Bosh. This year, I think Bosh is back to being a half-step above Josh in the league’s PF pecking order. But my main concern about Josh right now isn’t that I think his game is insufficiently impressive. It’s that this core needs to be shaken, and Josh is the only member of the core who could realistically be included in a trade proposal.

Hawkfan2

February 1st, 2011
2:26 pm

If you’re an Atlanta/Georgia Sports fan and want to talk with other fans, check out our NEW message board.

http://www.atlsportsnation.com/forum

We have team forums for the Falcons, Bulldogs, Hawks, Braves, Yellow Jackets, Thrashers, etc. Please register and post! Be apart of a huge site in the early days of existence. See ya there!

ATLSportsNation

February 1st, 2011
2:27 pm

If you’re an Atlanta/Georgia Sports fan and want to talk with other fans, check out our NEW message board.

http://www.atlsportsnation.com/forum

We have team forums for the Falcons, Bulldogs, Hawks, Braves, Yellow Jackets, Thrashers, etc. Please register and post! Be apart of a huge site in the early days of existence. See ya there!

Ken Strickland

February 1st, 2011
2:44 pm

ASTRO JOE-Teague may not be the answer, but he offers us a much better option for the 30.3MPG we’re now wasting on Bibby. Teague at least has the ability and/or potential to get better in most areas, while Bibby continues to regress right before our eyes. And didn’t we see Bibby go through this same scenario last yr? After bringing in several vet PG’s(TLue, SClaxton, AJohnson and MBibby) over the last few yrs, and having only short term success at best, wouldn’t you think at least one of our 2 HC’s would have enough sense to commit to developing one of the PG’s we’ve drafted(SStaudemire, RIvey, ALaw, JTeague)?
Here’s a partial list of PG’s that lead the NBA in turnovers.
1-RRondo———-4.0TO’s, 12.6APG,10.4PPG
2-PWestbrook—-3.8TO’s, 8.5APG
3-SNash————3.6TO’s, 11APG,, 17.0PPG
4-DRose———–3.5TO’s, 8.1APG, 24.4PPG
5-DWilliams——-3.4TO’s, 9.4APG, 21.9PPG
6-RFelton———–3.3TO’s, 8.9APG, 17.2PPG
7-TParker———–2.5TO’s, 6.9APG, 21.1PPG
8-AMiller————-2.5TO’s, 7.1APG,
9-CPaul————-2.3TO’S, 9.7APG, 16.7PPG

How many of you would refuse to acquire or start any of these PG’s over Bibby just because he sets good picks and has a much lower assist to turnover ratio than they do? This is the type of accross the board production we should be striving for, and it won’t happen unless we make a committment to developing our young PG. Making excuses like:
1-I thought he’d be farther along in his development, or
2-I want to see more aggressiveness on DEF, or
3-I want to see him play with wreckless abandon, or
4-he can’t shoot, or
5-he’s too passive, or
6-he can’t run a team, etc,
just to justify giving 30.3MPG to an aging PG, who’s already limited OFF/DEF abilities and low production are in rapidly declining right before our very eyes as the season progresses.

Hell yes we can do better than JTeague as our starting PG, and I hope we do by the trade deadline. However, we can’ t continue pretending we can’t do better than Bibby right now, without having to make a trade..

Astro Joe

February 1st, 2011
3:39 pm

Strickland, the head coach that you endorsed quite enthusiastically has said that he can’t do better than Bibby with the current roster. And that same coach gave that same player plenty of time to earn a consistent spot in the rotation.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 1st, 2011
5:26 pm

“Find me a player – high schooler or no – who did not make an All-Star game in his first 7 seasons, but went on to become a Hall of Famer.”

Jermaine O’Neal doesn’t fit your criteria perfectly, but he wasn’t an All-Star caliber player until year 6, and you could make the argument that if he had stayed healthy he may have put up the kind of numbers that would have him in the Hall of Fame conversation. Not a great example, but it’s not like nobody has come close to achieving what you said.

In any case, I think you’re selling Smoove a little short in portraying him as overly reliant on his athleticism. If Smoove was all athleticism he’d be Tyrus Thomas. Four years ago he had no semblance of a post game, whereas he at least has a somewhat reliable lefty hook now. One year ago his jump shot was awful; now it is at least passable. He has developed into one of the better passing big men in the league. It’s not out of the question that a guy who has improved at least one aspect of his game every offseason will continue to improve. One year ago I would have never guessed that Smoove would hit 3’s at a 38% clip over half a season; it’s not out of the question that he could similarly improve his currently below average handles and low post game to the point of being a 20 ppg scorer.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 1st, 2011
5:30 pm

“He regressed from last year (the only year in his career where there were even whispers that he was All-Star caliber) to this year”

He hasn’t regressed in terms of skills. His efficiency numbers are worse because he’s allowed to shoot long jumpers by LD, which he wasn’t allowed to do by Woody. That’s not a trivial difference; it indicates that his skill set is still growing, even if his decision making hasn’t kept pace.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 1st, 2011
5:48 pm

“The reason we haven’t watched Teague play 20-25 minutes with the starters is because LD hasn’t yet decided to “throw a game”. Just because Bibby struggles defensively doesn’t make Teague the answer at PG. It just means that we have a PG problem. Teague would only create a different problem if giving big minutes.”

Would “throwing a game” at this point be such a bad idea?

Let’s face it: the best case scenario for the Hawks this year is the 4 seed. Whether they get the 4 or the 5, they are going to play Orlando, and their home-road split this year is not nearly as bad as it has been in years past. They have won a road playoff game in the first round the last two years. The 6 seeded Knicks are 4.5 games behind the Hawks and slumping. Would it really be that bad of an idea for the Hawks to play Teague big minutes against some team like the Raptors that they could probably beat with Royal Ivey starting?

Worst case scenario, Teague shows nothing, they lose to a team they should beat, and they continue to maintain their current standing. Best case, Teague gains confidence and gets comfortable playing with the starters and takes a major step toward mercifully replacing the immobile, one-dimensional Bibby.

Whether you like Teague or not, glossing over the fact that point guard is the major weakness on this team right now is something that should be limited to Rick Sund’s delusional ass.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
5:59 pm

Sorry, Najeh, but if the best you can come up with is Jermaine O’Neal, you’re not getting very warm. I would be shocked if JON gets a single vote for the Hall of Fame. Unlike Josh, JON wasn’t getting consistent minutes from day 1 because he was on the team with the best big man depth in NBA history (no exaggeration); JON wasn’t even a rotation player until year 5.

The “if he stayed healthy” thing kills me. It always bugs me when people say “oh, he was great except for his injuries” or “he could have been great if not for his injuries.” The ability to stay healthy is a key part of being an athlete. I actually would argue that it is THE most important part of being an athlete. It doesn’t matter what natural talents a player has if he can’t stay healthy. If the injury is caused by a freak accident totally disconnected from training and competition (as happened with Monica Seles and Roberto Clemente), that’s one thing. But if your body’s build (Yao), your style of play (Rafa Nadal in tennis), or even if it’s the result of an avoidable in-competition injury (like Bo Jackson), I simply don’t view it as a “mitigating factor.” The ability to stay healthy – whether through physical gifts, training/condition, or playing style – or lack thereof is an inseparable part of being athlete. I don’t see how it can be viewed separately any more than strength, quickness, or awareness can.

So saying “he would have been a Hall of Famer if he had stayed healthy” is like saying “Jeff Hornacek could have been a Hall of Famer had he been a better athlete” or “Derrick Coleman could have been a Hall of Famer had he given a damn.”

He hasn’t regressed in terms of skills. His efficiency numbers are worse because he’s allowed to shoot long jumpers by LD, which he wasn’t allowed to do by Woody. That’s not a trivial difference; it indicates that his skill set is still growing, even if his decision making hasn’t kept pace.

He was “allowed” to shoot long jumpers by Woody. He shot a lot of them last year. He just didn’t shoot 3s. And even THAT proved to be a 1-year only deal.

In any case, how do you define “skill” if you aren’t including basketball IQ, shot selection, effort, etc? Why is regressing in terms of shot selection any less worrisome than regressing in jumper consistency or rebounds?

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
6:04 pm

Sorry, Najeh – I know you admitted that it wasn’t spot-on, but I have to point out that in response to my request for an example of a Hall of Famer who didn’t make an All-Star game until his 8th season or later, the only example you came up with was a guy who won’t make the Hall of Fame and who made an All-Star game in his 6th season ;)

Ken Strickland

February 1st, 2011
6:55 pm

ASTRO JOE-yes, I endorsed LDrew, and I still do, but that doesn’t mean I’ll agree with everything he chooses to say or do. Remember, Woodson frequently repeated basically the same things about ALaw and JTeague. Like LDrew, Woodson also depended heavily on Bibby, and gave him heavy mins. NOW GUESS WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM!

I think Drew believed his motion OFF would make Bibby more productive, and it did, during the early part of the schedule. But now that teams are catching up to everything, and Bibby has started to wear down, his OFF/DEF liabilities are now placing a burden on the team. It’s not Bibby’s fault that he can no longer do what is required. It’s LDrew’s fault for continuing to put him in this position and then blaming Teague for his decision because he feels he doesn’t have the desired attitude.

I hope he doesn’t go completely stupid and start holding JJ’s rather passive attitude against him. I’d give up Bibby’s pick setting ability any day in favor of Teague’s speed, quickness, athleticism, and greater assist, scoring, turnover and defensive potential.

My #1 preference would be for us to acquire either DHarris or JCalderon by the trade deadline.

Astro Joe

February 1st, 2011
7:02 pm

Najeh, I agree that PG is an issue, I just don’t see Teague as the answer. And neither does LD (evidently). Teague had every chance to show and prove and the result of his audition was essentially a demotion from constant rotational player to a guy who sometimes plays AFTER Jordan Crawford.

At this point, I’d rtaher see JC2 get 10-12 minutes at PG, if we’re so interested in experimentation at that position.

Astro Joe

February 1st, 2011
7:05 pm

Strickland, unlike Woody, LD gave Teague a good 20-25 games of constant playing time and dude fell on his face. At some point, you have to cut bait and while you may think LD did so too soon, you can’t deny that Teague had his chance to shine and ultimately came up short in his coach’s eyes. Teague may get another bite at the apple, but only after the jumps through some of LD’s hurdles, and I am okay with the coach making him earn each and every minute of precious playing time.

Ken Strickland

February 1st, 2011
7:08 pm

NAJEH-Once again you are the voice of reason. You’ve eloquently summed up what I’ve been saying all along, and in so many different ways. Bibby is definitely giving the effort, but not the results. It’s totally rediculous to continue forcing him to play extended mins and expecting to get more production, when his overall production is steadily decreasing as the season progresses.

Big Ray

February 1st, 2011
7:52 pm

O'Brien

February 1st, 2011
8:45 pm

nire,

Grant Hill might have been a hall of famer…if he had stayed healthy :wink:

Other Hawks news…Marvin will get his wish and remain in the starting lineup. From the new blog;

“Now, though, Drew says the “normal” lineup will be Bibby, J.J., Marvin, Smoove and Al. Twin will get in only when the Hawks need to counter beef on the frontline.

L.D. added that he considers his rotation to be pretty much set after 48 games.

Based on what’s happened lately, that would mean Jamal, Zaza, Damien and Mo will get regular playing time while Teague, Powell and Twin will get in where they fit in.”MC .

Vava,

I’m sure you enjoyed reading the new article on ajc.com about Jamal;

“”I don’t like the word ’slump,’” Crawford said. “They are going to go in. I just have to continue to shoot them.”.

And continue shooting he will. Which is why LD needs to keep a close eye on him…

doc

February 1st, 2011
9:31 pm

nire, here is a legit name that comes close to your criteria, that i will legitimately stretch as there are few high schoolers to compare, of late bloomers making all star teams in relative later twenties or careers that might end up in the hall. try on nash who made it first in his sixth year at the age of 27 after a college career.

Ken Strickland

February 1st, 2011
9:36 pm

ASTRO JOE-I did a little checking and here’s what I came up with. First, I looked at the gms where Teague was given 17 or more mins and compared his production in those gms to Bibby’s. Teague(Bibby)

MINN(Nov 14) MINS-17:01(20:56), RB-2(1), AST-2(4), PTS-4(4)
CAV (Dec 22) MINS-18:02(29:58), RB-5(0), 4(3), PTS-7(6)
MIL (Dec 27) MINS-18:19(22:38), RB-2(1), AST-4(4), PTS-7(3)
IND (Dec 11) MINS-18:54(25:04), RB-8(3), AST-2(1), PTS-7(3)
PHI (Dec 03) MINS-19:11(28:49), RB-5(0), AST-4(3), PTS-6(7)
MIL (Dec 10) MINS-21:30(25:01, RB-1(2), AST-6(2), PTS-10(9)
BOS(Dec 16) MINS-25:07(27:50) RB-4(3), AST-2(8), PTS-18(11)

If these comparisons tell you Teague fell flat on his face when given 17 or more MPG, then what in the hell does it tell you Bibby fell flat on, considering he played more mins, and got more consistent mins in every gm? And don’t forget, when the season started he was coming off an injury and missed all but the 1st preseason gm. And like JJ and Jamal, he needed time to get his gm back.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
9:57 pm

Doc, did you notice that I specifically mentioned Nash in the post in which I issued the challenge?

The closest example I can think of is Steve Nash, and even he had an All-Star appearance in his 6th and 7th years. Also, Nash was a guy who did 4 years of college, which indicates to me once again that age matters less than experience after you’ve been around the league a few years. Once you’ve been around the league that long, your odds of breaking through to become a superstar are slim, regardless of how old you were when you were drafted.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
10:18 pm

And Najeh:

it’s not out of the question that he could similarly improve his currently below average handles and low post game to the point of being a 20 ppg scorer.

It’s not out of the question that an asteroid could fall out of the sky and destroy the world tomorrow. But based on everything I’ve seen, I’m gonna bet that it won’t.

And:

- Do you really think Josh has the skill set to remain at his current (sub-All-Star) level once his athleticism starts waning in a year or two?
- Color me unimpressed that Josh is hitting 37.5% of his 3-point attempts when virtually every one of those shots is uncontested. Especially since I remember people saying the same thing when he shot 40+% down the stretch in ‘09.
- His jumper and his low post game are still below-average. It’s a lot easier to go from “terrible” to “below average” than it is to go from “below average” to “good.”
- Josh’s improved jumper has been accompanied by a breakdown in his shot selection. The result is that his eFG% now is lower than it was in either of the past two years.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 1st, 2011
10:37 pm

“In any case, how do you define “skill” if you aren’t including basketball IQ, shot selection, effort, etc? Why is regressing in terms of shot selection any less worrisome than regressing in jumper consistency or rebounds?”

I think there is a distinction between what a player is capable of doing (what I refer to as skills) and how well a player understands what’s going on at any particular time of the game or when to do certain things (what people generally refer to as basketball IQ), and both don’t necessarily develop at the same rate. Off the top of my head, I’d point to someone like Andray Blatche as a player who has above average skills and below average understanding of the game, whereas someone like Jason Collins would be a guy with limited skills but an above average understanding of the game.

Anyway, I wasn’t trying to imply that regressing in terms of shot selection is any better. From what I can gather of what you’ve been saying, you more or less feel that what we see from Smoove right now is pretty much what we’re going to see for the foreseeable future as long as he has his athleticism. I would point to the fact that he clearly improved his jumper this past offseason as indication that he’s likely to improve other aspects of his game in the future and that he hasn’t reached his ceiling yet. Looking back over the discussion, I see names like McHale being brought up as comparison to Smoove, and I wouldn’t go that far. I’d say Rasheed Wallace in Portland or Chris Webber in Washington are better comparisons for what Smoove can be when he reaches his ceiling.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 1st, 2011
10:41 pm

“It’s not out of the question that an asteroid could fall out of the sky and destroy the world tomorrow. But based on everything I’ve seen, I’m gonna bet that it won’t.”

I would have said the same thing last year about him shooting 38% from 3 for half a season. If he can do that, he can improve his handles. Will it happen? Maybe, maybe not. Am I going to rule it out after seeing him go from being one of the worst 3 point shooters in the league to one of the better ones statistically? No.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 1st, 2011
10:49 pm

“Do you really think Josh has the skill set to remain at his current (sub-All-Star) level once his athleticism starts waning in a year or two?”

Why do you think his athleticism will start waning at age 27? A lot of athletic players have maintained their athleticism for much longer. Bill Simmons — admittedly not a basketball expert even if he thinks he is — wrote a column last week about players nowadays maintaining their athletic ability longer than they did 10-20 years ago. Amare Stoudemire will be 29 this year and has had microfracture surgery and doesn’t seem to have lost a lot of his athleticism. C-Webb maintained a pretty high level of athleticism until his own knee injury at age 30. Barring a serious injury I don’t see why Smoove can’t maintain his athleticism for another four or five years before he starts seeing a decline.

doc

February 1st, 2011
11:01 pm

probably read it though it didnt register as i was involved in patients and didnt go back to reread it before my mind went to nash.

there are probably others through the ages though again sometimes who you are with and the organozations you are in influence what happens. our own jj may come close to your criteria though unless he gets a championship he wont be fodder for hof. just the same a good player later in his age group to get the accolades. he also was pushed hard into that role by woody.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
11:09 pm

Najeh,

Fair enough on the timing issue. My observation is that in basketball, your athleticism starts to wane around age 27 or 28. Maybe that date’s been pushed back a couple years and/or the decline is slower than it used to be. But my general point is that Josh, unlike a guy like Duncan or Dirk, relies on his athleticism for most of his game. His jumper is below-average (having a second good half-season of jumpshooting in his 6.5 year career doesn’t change that) and his low post moves are below average (the lefty hook is serviceable, not good). Frankly, as of right now, he just doesn’t have the skill set in place to remain an offensive threat if his athleticism starts to go (and with it the opportunity for his easy points). The idea of him building his game around his jumper or low post moves is frankly laughable at this point. He’d have to reinvent his game in order to remain relevant at that end.

His skills as a help defender are stronger, but he stills relies quite a bit on his leaping ability for the “intimidation factor” of his blocked shots. Past that, he still remains a well below-average on-ball defender both on the perimeter and an average (at best) on-ball defender in the post. Again, he would have to dramatically improve those aspects of his game if he wants to remain a good defender once his athleticism starts to wane.

Modern science and training might be able to extend the life of Josh’s athleticism, but it can’t stop it altogether. And right now, Josh simply doesn’t have the skills to be more than an average player once his athleticism regresses to the mean. Players who reinvent themselves after 7+ years in the league are incredibly rare exceptions, not the rule.

doc

February 1st, 2011
11:15 pm

najeh i never inplied mchale and josh had similar skill sets just he was paired with another center like mchale was and those two josh and al might just challenge the numbers put up by chief and mchale. this discussion started eons ago and was referenced when i claimed to be among the blind not seeing hoe effective bibby is in still leading fast breaks. that might bring this discussion into context of mchale vs josh. josh already has as many assists in his career as mchale did so he brings something there mchale didnt. againjosh and mchale are. ery different but i was looking at axpair at pf and c that remained together for a comparison. their numbers wont be that far off just they are not going to get the notoriety without winnng near impossible wih the hawks not like the celts, probably the best organization ever challenged only by the lakers over the years. the hawks vs the celts organizations is truly apples and oranges for which our guys have to be graded on as well.
again put them in green and surround them with bird and d johnson among and id take my chances against the lakers of that era.

O'Brien

February 1st, 2011
11:19 pm

Nire,

Based on what you’ve been saying about Josh, it sounds like we should trade him then (for the right package of course).

1) It would change the dynamic of the team
2) When his contract is up in 2 years, Hawks might be forced to overpay, so sell high (before his game starts to decline).

vava74

February 2nd, 2011
9:31 am

Anyone wants to bet that within 3 years Josh will be significantly less effective than JJ taking as a starting point their current games?

Josh does not use his skills and tries to play against the flow of his own ability almost like a right handed guy who insists on playing only with his left hand.

Can he improve? Sure, but all that he does against what he has “in him” will never be fluid and natural.

superiorblogman

February 2nd, 2011
10:01 am

Real Makeover

Trade 1

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=4mvwrg4

Hawks get: Stephen Curry, Biedrins, and Charlie Bell

Warriors get: Josh Smith, Jeff Teague, and Zaza

superiorblogman

February 2nd, 2011
10:29 am

Trade 2

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=4emghwv

Hawks get: Carl Landry and Stephen Jackson

Bobcats get: Jamal and Francisco Garcia

Kings get: Gerald Wallace and Mo Evans

New Lineup:

PG Stephen Curry/Bibby
SG Joe/Stephen Jackson/Jordan
SF Marvin/Stephen Jackson
PF Al/Carl Landry/Josh Powell
C Biedrins/Collins/Thomas

8 deep quality nba players to the 6 we currently have and we are still under luxury cap.

Astro Joe

February 2nd, 2011
1:56 pm

Strickland, do you not see the falacy of that analysis? Teague gets more than his average time in games when Bibby isn’t playing well (or Jamal is missing). So comparing Teague’s performance against a sampling of Bibby’s worse game isn’t exactly scientifically valid. Regarding Teague’s injury, LD demoted him long since he should have re-gained his health. Was he healthy during that 16 minute stint against the Hornets about 10 days ago?

Check out Teague’s January log. Every game that he played more than 10 minutes, the Hawks lost. So did LD play him because we were losing or did we lose because LD played him? I don’t know, I just hope that he doesn’t play 10+ minutes tonight.

Go Hawks!

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=4015

Astro Joe

February 2nd, 2011
2:46 pm

Kind of interesting to look at these stats, especially the points per shot (PPS) and 2-point FG%. Folk always wanting him to do something with his handful of opportunities… it appears that he is (at a better clip than the more heralded players on this team).

http://espn.go.com/nba/team/stats/_/name/atl/atlanta-hawks

Astro Joe

February 2nd, 2011
2:49 pm

Also sad to see that Marvin gets more FTAs per game than Horford. Ouch!

lukas

February 2nd, 2011
3:03 pm

Superior Blog man:

Trade # 1 looks intriguing, but Stephen Curry seems to be more a SG than a PG. There could be a conflict with JJ unless you plan to bring him from the bench. Trade # 2 also looks good but Sacramento is loaded with SF (Cisco, Caspi, Donte Greene) so i don’t see them getting more. Anyway, i really liked the 1st one b/c of Biedrins presence and Curry’s hability to score.

superiorblogman

February 3rd, 2011
9:07 am

Curry is just as much a PG as Deron Williams or Rose who both take more shots than he does and he is actually not the problem with that team it is Monta who is simply to small to guard the elite SG’s.

Rose takes 20 shots a game and gets 8 assists to 3 turnovers

Deron Williams takes 15 shots a game gets 9 assists to 3 turnovers

Curry takes 15 shots a game gets 6 assists to 3 turnovers

Curry is Mike Bibby on steroids and would be a fine addition to the Hawks because he can play alongside a 6-7, 240 pound, SG.