Hawks fans: When is patience no longer a virtue?

Are you thinking what I’m thinking? If it’s “here we go again,” then we’re thinking the same thing.

Another fourth quarter collapse. Another quick point guard doing the Hawks in. Another set of typical quotes from two of the team’s captains. Another vein of frustration popping out of the coach’s forehead. Perspectives from AL, Larry, and Joe are becoming the norm these days. But that is not the problem at all. The problem is that those perspectives haven’t changed one bit, because the situation has not changed.

Patience, patience

That’s why management preaches. That’s not what you’re hearing from Head Coach Larry Drew, though. No, what we’re hearing from him is long-suffering. There is a fundamental difference between the two. Patience is realizing that a non-lottery draft pick might need a bit more work than a lottery draft pick. Patience is understanding that a new offensive philosophy or a new rotation player added to the mix takes some time to develop. Patience is doing the best you can as a team while waiting for injured starters to heal.

Patience is not making the same exact mistakes again and again, despite the fact that you should know by now (after 2 or 3 years) what will cause you to lose the lead in a game. Why is shot selection still an issue?

The Usual Suspects, The Usual Results

Joe Johnson is the best player on this team and the guy you want to have the ball in the worst situations. How does he end up taking only two more shots than the team’s sixth man, and seven less shots than the team’s worst perimeter shooting starter? You can criticize Joe for taking too many jumpers if you choose. But the fact is, Joe is a shooter and scorer. You WANT him to shoot.

Jamal Crawford is a streak shooter. Either he’s good, or he’s bad. There is little middle ground with Jamal. Do you want him to shoot? Yes. It’s what he does. But you have to understand that shoot is what he’s going to do, whether he’s on or not. On the other end of the floor, there is nothing to balance things out, plain and simple. The good news is that Jamal does know how to get to the line.

Now for the self-made whipping boy, Josh Smith. Josh has gotten to where he can make shots from the outside. The problem is that in his mind, can is the same as will. Smith’s early season perimeter success has eroded on a near day-to-day basis, and I truly believe that much of this has to do with him trying to establish his offense outside first, instead of inside. The problem with this is that it’s the exact opposite of what his coach has been trying to tell him. And there it is – Josh not listening again. Still. When will this change? Will it change?

Taking Notes

Rick Sund says the Hawks like their core, and that they are going to be patient with the team. But when is patience no longer a virtue? How long can the Hawks afford to stay with the status quo? We’re not talking about making random changes here. We’re talking about fixing actual problems. When do the excuses run out? How long is ownership and management going to take an “Oh, it will be fine” stance?

Maybe Sund should start taking note of the things some of his most valued players are saying. Maybe he should pay attention to the words coming from the mouth of the very man he “hired” to change that which has not changed. Sooner or later this will be simply too much. Sooner or later regression takes hold for good, until something significant is done. The Hawks keep saying it can happen from within, but can it? They say they’re aware of the main problem. A couple of wins go by and all is somewhat good. Then the inevitable happens and it’s back to the same quotes, the same hanging heads, the same shrugging shoulders.

Perhaps Al Horford said it best :

“I guess when it gets to a point where it hurts you and really bothers you, then you do something about it. I don’t know that we’re there as a team yet.”

Does it hurt the team enough yet, or have they passed the point of where they are collectively aware (translation: are there guys who simply don’t care enough)? How about management? Are there enough guys on the floor to fix the situation, or does the fix have to come from higher? More than ever, it seems that this questions leans harder towards the latter, rather than the former.

Flip Side of the Coin

Not all is gloom and doom. At the very least, the Hawks have gotten past the injury bug for the moment. Al Horford looked like he didn’t miss a beat against Milwaukee, hitting 7 of 9 shots and adding another nice double double to his collection. Meanwhile, Marvin looked rather effective coming off the bench. This is certainly good news for a Hawks team that may need to experiment a bit more to find the best possible chemistry that it can, seeing as how the schedule will only get tougher.

273 comments Add your comment

niremetal

January 31st, 2011
10:10 pm

Doc,

Flip that and ask yourself: What if Bird had to settle for Josh and Al instead of McHale and Parish.

doc

January 31st, 2011
10:38 pm

in a very cursory look, josh’s numbers fit pretty well over mchale even though he entered the game at the age of 23 and was a sixth man for awhile whereas josh has started and excelled right out of high school. total numbers for josh are going to be huge for his career. remember i said the sixers were stupid to think josh wouldnt out produce brand over the length of the contracts, same will be true for the careers of josh and mchale.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mchalke01.html

doc

January 31st, 2011
10:46 pm

statistically horfod is holding his own with parish as he continues to develop his game.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parisro01.html

we remember the big three in their prime not on the way up playing with the greatest teammate ever in one of the storied franchises in the history of the game. it is hard to put al and josh in the context of that but wait until their careers are over to see what they do in a very different era of the nba. that is a very pragmatic view.

O'Brien

January 31st, 2011
10:57 pm

“Put him against other teams’ first units, and he’d look even worse than he does right now. And right now, he looks terrible.”nire .

Fair enough. But on the flip side, put Teague in the game with the Hawks starters, and see how he looks.

I think he would look alot better playing with JJ, Josh and Al than he does with Jamal, Powell and ZaZa.

As for Bibby leading the break, my perception is even if he does lead the break, he slows down once he crosses half-court, and gives the ball up, not really putting pressure on the defense, because they know he is not going to penetrate.

Ken Strickland

February 1st, 2011
12:31 am

How many times can anyone honestly say they’ve seen Teague have a bad game when he’s played 20+MPG? How many times have we seen Bibby have bad gms after playing 30+MPG? NIREMETAl, DOC, I like Bibby just as much as you guys do, but I refuse to allow that to get in the way of accepting that at 30.3MPG, he’s rapidly becoming both an offensive and defensive liability.

And NIRE, I agree with your assessment of JStockton being outstanding at setting picks for a PG. However, he also:
1-Penetrated
2-Beat defenders off the dribble
3-Controlled the ball and the OFF
4-annually registered high assist totals
5-consistently scored in double figures
6-held his own defensively
7-got steals
8-challenged and broke down DEF’s
9-regularly got to the FT line
10-created easy scoring opportunities for his teammates

The Atlanta Hawks need a PG that does more than:
1-set picks,
2-restricts his OFF to shooting 3’s almost exclusively,
3-gives little more than a GOOD FAITH effort on DEF,
4-run phantom fast breaks

Tell me NIRE, during the 4th quarter of the Dallas gm, where were all of those pick and rolls you say Bibby is so good at running with Horford? Where was that leadership you’re always referencing, when Horford got only 2 shots the entire quarter? The reason it happened, and has happened in the past, is because the only thing Bibby usually runs during the 4th quarter of gms is to the 3pt line, because he usually turns to ball and the OFF over to JJ and/or Jamal in the 4th quarter.

THERE’S NO ONE BLINDER THAN HE WHO WILL NOT SEE.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
1:15 am

Ken,

Sorry, but I have zero interest in engaging in a discussion with you on Bibby.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 1st, 2011
1:24 am

“Bibby, for all his flaws, won’t do anything that affirmatively hurts the team.”

I guess single-handedly destroying the entire team’s defense and getting spun around like a top on a regular basis by people who were playing in Euroleague last season doesn’t count as something that hurts the team.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
1:31 am

Doc,

If all you look at is stats, then Glenn Robinson is a borderline Hall of Famer. Stats don’t begin to show that McHale and Parish were elite-level on ball defenders. They don’t show that McHale’s low post repertoire – possibly the best in NBA history – opened the floor up for Bird and his teammates because opposing defenders had to be ready at all times to collapse on McHale. They don’t show that Parish was one of the best-shooting big men in the game’s history.

McHale and Parish were first-ballot Hall of Famers. That’s something that can only be said about 32 players in the entire history of the NBA. Josh has yet to make an All-Star team (and he won’t make it this year, his 7th in the NBA). Al has only made one. If Al finds away to play another 20 seasons in the NBA – ie if he matches the longevity of the peerless Parish – then maybe he has a shot. But saying Al’s numbers look good now is like saying a player will win a marathon because he’s leading after 400m – sure, it’s possible, but the hardest part is still a long way away.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
1:36 am

I guess single-handedly destroying the entire team’s defense and getting spun around like a top on a regular basis by people who were playing in Euroleague last season doesn’t count as something that hurts the team.

I don’t agree with either of those statements. He is a major concern in our team’s defense, but plenty of teams have overcome the presence of a poor defensive starter. The Hawks’ defensive problems run far deeper than Bibby. And I don’t agree that he gets “spun around like a top on a regular basis,” least of all by poor players. He gets beaten, sure. But he usually manages to funnel his man to the help in the process and rarely commits a foul. In any case, he doesn’t defend so badly that a better defensive team couldn’t overcome his presence.

O'Brien

February 1st, 2011
7:42 am

“He is a major concern in our team’s defense, but plenty of teams have overcome the presence of a poor defensive starter.” nire .

How many of those poor defensive starters were PGs? And how do we define “overcome”? Made it to the ECF? NBA Finals?

My take on Bibby is this. Over the last month, he has not played well and is hurting the team. However, he has played well enough in the past, and despite his limitations, he has earned the trust of his teamates and coaches. Teague has not.

As much as I think Bibby’s minutes should be limited, it looks like Teague has not earned the trust of his teamates and coaches. Until that happens, I can understand why LD is hesitant to stick with him.

I’m a Teague fan, but;

1) one of the owners mentioned that he doesnt think Woody played Teague enough
2) LD came out over the offseason and said the startng PG job is there for the taking
3) LD brought in Nick Van Exel specifically for Teague
4) LD is a former NBA PG whose son is also a PG (in college), and if I’m not mistaken, LD has PG camps.
5) Bibby is struggling

Despite all this, Teague has not been able to earn consistent minutes? I think the majority of the blame is on Teague for not getting it done, because the circumstances have been favorable for him.

Big Ray

February 1st, 2011
7:46 am

I’d put Jeff Teague in with the starters for 25 games before making any predictions about how he would do. If you ask me, such a situation would force him to either play to his potential (whatever that truly is), or play himself off the team. In other words, throwing him to the wolves in such fashion would prove what he is or isn’t capable of, and where he might truly belong in the rotation.

At the same time, 25 games isn’t nearly enough time to truly develop. I continue to refer to the example of Mike Conley, who has only now begun to truly realize his potential. However, 25 games would give some indication of what Teague can or can’t do, or what he can or can’t develop into. The issue with such a sample size is that we act like he’d be playing in a vaccum, which he wouldn’t. We also have to account for the chemistry between he and the other starters, who don’t have perfect chemistry among themselves.

So, we can say he’d look great, or we can say he’d look terrible. And we could be wrong either way, or both ways. Too many variables to work with and I’ll be the first to admit that my crystal ball hasn’t and never will work. Basing how he plays in past sample sizes with limited variables and situtations is a false indication of what he’s likely to do, whether you expect success or failure, in my opinion. You simply don’t know until you try it.

I’ll leave that to Larry Drew, who has the best firsthand knowledge to work with.

As it stands right now, Teague has been determined to NOT be starter material in Drew’s plan.

doc

February 1st, 2011
8:50 am

you know nire, some folks make the same arguments against stockton, who was a point that really led the break that added many assists to his totals, and malone because they never won the big one, that their stats arent good enough to hold them up to the guys who have stats and rings. i personally look at the body of work, what organization they were with, players they went to war with as i make the full assessment of their worth. if both these guys of ours stay healthy then their body of work will rival mchale and the chief irrespective of championships that tend to go along with hall of fame recognition. sometimes the organization has as much to do with it as the player. yes mchale was great though and wont be touched in some areas by josh, mchale also has never thought of doing some things josh has already accomplished because he is a freak of nature as was mchale i might add, due to his agility as a big man and a huge wing span. besides mentioning a major factor in bird as one of the guys they went to war with along with dj which bibby will never approach nor jj, i have already deferred to the celts organization and the culture of the celtics whereas the biggest hindrance is our own culture of the hawks as i have pointed out before as losers now for almost 60 years. these two guys josh and al along with jj have pulled us off the pile that is below mediocrity and from that alone are worthy of notoriety.

josh has continued to work on his game as has al so i can expect more of them as they develop. mchale didnt approach josh’s numbers until he was 27 or so and was a sixth man before entering the starting lineup where josh started right out of high school and didnt get totally embarrassed, winning a slam dunk on the big stage, then saying he wouldnt go back because he wanted to be worth more. now, when was mchale in an all star game at his earliest age?

right now their curve is every bit as good as mchale and chief at this time in their careers. that is all i am saying, have said and will continue to say. i have also been the first here to say trade josh and i continue to say josh needs a sports psychologist to focus some of his energy in a more positive direction so i am not blind to his needs nor a josh worshipper nor apologist. i might even add you are less blind to the overall picture than you were this past summer as you felt we could continue to grow without changes. i am more positive about this team right now than i expected to be and probably more than you and feel pretty good about what could be accomplished and have said so in the past. however, it wont be done without an owner willing to take the risk to spend money to get to the next rung like cuban did, before reaching ecf finals or not. too many worthy teams willing to spend ahead of us in this conference in the heat, magic, bulls and celts to expect otherwise. i am amazed at what these guys accomplish without more commitment from the owners but i am not blind either as to their strengths and weaknesses nor where balance and depth are needed.

as far as cuban you might look to what he has said about the hawks recently in one of ken segura’s notebook blog segments i think it was. pretty interesting take and one i dont think our owners see as the road right now.

vava74

February 1st, 2011
9:17 am

Rod,

You dig deeper and deeper in bullshit every time you post.

So, McGrady is a winner because he earned a lot of money and was a scoring champion, etc…

Nice to know how you measure basketball success. I could even end my post here, but I won’t. :-)

So, successful is how you qualify a guy who was so good that he never won a single playoff series? With more than decent teams surrounding him?

Give me a break! :-D

And do I need to know a player personally to be able to label him “self centered”, “one dimensional”, “soft” and “not team success driven”?

Are you out of your mind? 95% of what we need to know about a basketball player happens on the floor and can be seen on the TV:

Does he make his teammates better? Were his teams winning teams? Does he bring it every single game?

Or does he collect personal accolades and money like McGrady (and Carter) but ultimately he never brings his teams any success and folds under pressure?

A guy with a .435 FG% for his career? that drops to .430 in the playoffs?

A guy with a .337 3pt% for his career (with more than 3000 shots launched)? that drops to .301 in the playoffs?

A guy who averaged 3,21 TO per game in the playoffs?

A concede you that he was/is an above average passer and rebounder. But individual stats are only individual stats.

McGrady is one of the BIGGEST LOSERS ever in the NBA. Plain and simple.

Your argument was that young valuable players get traded ALL THE TIME and I told you that you were wrong.

You only came up with a good example. All others were either FA or NOT YOUNG or ULTIMATELY NOT VALUABLE.

And to add to the bullshit, where did I bring Marvin to the conversation relating to McGrady??

I already told you that Marvin has significant shortcomings and that he is not #2 material, I simply said that your one dimensional focus on Marvin is delusional and I will continue to state this.

Marvin is not on the top 3 of the Hawks problems/shortcomings.

vava74

February 1st, 2011
9:20 am

Ray,

Blog monster didn’t like the word “bullsh!t”

Can you retrieve and amend?

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
9:32 am

I’m sorry, doc. You’re frankly making a fool of yourself every time you defend the comparison, particularly with respect to Josh. You’re putting a guy who has never made a single All-Star team in the same class as two perennial All-Stars and first ballot Hall of Famers who made the list of the 50 greatest players. It’s just baffling that you’re saying they have that kind of potential based on their good-but-not-great body of work to date.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
9:40 am

How many of those poor defensive starters were PGs? And how do we define “overcome”? Made it to the ECF? NBA Finals?

Take your pick. Teams have done all those things with a poor defensive PG. Nash has made the CFs, Jameer Nelson made the Finals, and Tony Parker c.2003 (if anyone remembers his defense back then, I mean it was BAD) won a title. Before that, the Bulls won titles with John Paxson and BJ Armstrong at PG. Derek Fisher is a below-average defensive PG now too, although I’ll grant that he’s not as bad as Bibby.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
9:45 am

And I don’t really see why having a poor defensive PG is more of a hindrance than having a poor defender at another position. People tend to obsess about the PG position far too much. Like I’ve said before, there’s only been 1 team that has won a title in the past 20 years with an All-Star at PG – Tony Parker with the Spurs in ‘07, and TP is not a traditional pass-first PG. The PG position, like the center position, does not carry the same unique requirements that it once did because the roles of players in different positions are so much more fluid now than they once were.

Melvin

February 1st, 2011
10:03 am

Nire,

At least all those PGs you listed, guard the opposing teams PGs. Bibby is too poor of a defender to defend PGs (and that was a choice by two different headcoaches). On top of that, it requires the Hawks to use their best offensive player to defend smaller and quicker players on a nightly basis.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
10:06 am

Melvin,

Against quicker PGs, Phil Jackson put MJ on the PG and had Paxson guard the SG or SF.

O'Brien

February 1st, 2011
10:09 am

nire,

I put more importance on PG defense because of the pressure they can apply to the ball-handler on the perimeter.

I see your point about teams being able to overcome a defensive liability from a starter.

So I will adjust my comment. IMO, the Hawks are not good enough to overcome Bibby’s defensive liability.

vava74

February 1st, 2011
10:38 am

“I’d put Jeff Teague in with the starters for 25 games before making any predictions about how he would do. If you ask me, such a situation would force him to either play to his potential (whatever that truly is), or play himself off the team.”

“Basing how he plays in past sample sizes with limited variables and situtations is a false indication of what he’s likely to do, whether you expect success or failure, in my opinion. You simply don’t know until you try it.”

Praise the Lord! ’cause his words are the wisdom He bestows on us!

“I’ll leave that to Larry Drew, who has the best firsthand knowledge to work with.”

Ignore the words of Satan!!

Melvin

February 1st, 2011
11:09 am

Nire,

I can’t recall MJ playing smaller guards maybe against bigger PGs such as Magic and Payton but I honestly can’t recall MJ doing that. However, I don’t see Phil using Kobe to defend quicker PGs.

doc

February 1st, 2011
11:10 am

nire:

“I’m sorry, doc. You’re frankly making a fool of yourself every time”

nire, it always seems to degenerate to the argument of ad hominem isnt it? throwing ridicule on the other to continue a discussion, is that your straw man?

there is no right answer nire, there just isnt? i conjecture that josh has the potential to be great and recognize his limitations. mchale wasnt a definite finished product when he came out. his first all star appearance was 83-84 season at the age of 27. he avg 10pg as a rook. guess josh has a few more years to catch up there, which is a question i asked of you, when you asked how many all star appearances josh had at the age of 24.

nice summary of mchale below who i respect and dont mean to demean in any way nor parish. can you believe red got both of these guys the same year in 80 for a number one draft pick to join bird two years into his already illustrious career? the warriors could have had both instead getting joe barry carroll. robbery! just the same the trajectory of what both al and josh are doing if they stay healthy and continue to get better as the two of the big three did together could be awesome. they need their own bird or one of them needs to go to get balance as marvin doesnt have the same equipment bird had to make the trio great at a championship level. they are our only true trading chips at this time.

http://hoopedia.nba.com/index.php?title=Kevin_McHale#Career_Statistics

anyway, fun to get to discuss basketball and relive some memories i had of the big three and can only dream we might have in two really good players still coming of age.

Ken Strickland

February 1st, 2011
11:14 am

NIREMETAL-I hope their are no hard feelings, and that you don’t take any of this personally, I mean that. However, you certainly didn’t have any problem engaging me in a debate about Bibby before I made my last 2 very detailed posts. My only intent was to present you with a more detailed understanding of the logic behind the opposing position I’ve taken with you on Bibby and Teague.

I won’t lie to you, I enjoy a good debate, but what some consider a DEBATE, other’s might consider an ARGUMENT. But I do love the challenge of presenting my position against an opposing point of view, and presenting/exchanging facts, stats and logically constructed opinions. Again, I hope you don’t take that the wrong way.

Also, the Pistons won a title with All Star PG CBillups. And who said a team needed an All Star PG to win a title anyway? I stated earlier that I don’t see Teague becoming an All Star caliber PG, but I do see him becoming much more than what we currently have at PG and helping this team improve.

Over the last 18gms, Bibby has scored in double figures only 5 times, and that includes 2gms with only 3pts total and one with 0pts. Just 5gms ago, he was averaging 10.1PPG and 4APG, but has regressed and is now down to 9.7PPG and 3.7APG. I agree with you when you said teams have managed to overcome the poor DEF of their PG’s, and you listed SNash and TParker.

But these PG’s make it so much easier for their teams to overcome their poor DEF by contributing so much more on the offensive end. They penetrate, break down DEF’s, create easy scoring oppotunties for their teammates, accumulate high assist totals, and/or score consistently in double figures, while controlling the ball and the OFF. We’re not getting any of these things from our current starting PG.

It’s funny how one can see an opposing player blow by Bibby and his matador DEF, and then try to defend what was seen by claiming he was FUNNELING. The team could use a hell of a lot less FUNNELING and more MAINTAINING A POSITION DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF HIS DEFENSIVE ASSIGNMENT.

Like BIG RAY said, we need to make a committment to finding out once and for all what Teague can do. We’ve certainly seen enough of what he can do to know he can give us better overall production than we’re getting from Bibby. He also brought up an excellent example in the development of PG MConnor. If we had drafted him, like some of our fans were seriously advocating, do you think he’d be the productive PG he is today after 2 yrs of the WOODY TREATMENT?

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
11:15 am

O’B,

There I agree with you. That’s my point. The Hawks seem to have too many flaws to win a title. A better team could overcome our lack of a serious low post scorer, our lack of a good PG, Marvin’s lack of aggressiveness, Josh’s shot selection, etc, etc, etc. But I don’t think any team could overcome the totality of those flaws. To me, the only truly fatal flaw that the Hawks have is psychological – they lose focus in the second half way too often. That’s why focusing on any one player or one player-related flaw as “what’s keeping us from contending” is pointless to me. The Hawks are bleeding from a thousand cuts, not from a severed jugular.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
11:23 am

Melvin,

Phil Jackson put MJ on Bogues, Isiah, and KJ too. Even later on, he often would put MJ on the opposing team’s PG in key late-game possessions, but that’s a common tactic if the opposing PG is the biggest perimeter threat and your SG is your best perimeter defender. His decision to use MJ on Bogues went unnoticed for years until the Bulls finally met the Hornets in the playoffs in ‘95. That year, it was devastatingly effective. Sam Smith talks about it in Second Coming if you’ve ever read it.

doc

February 1st, 2011
11:33 am

so one can overlay josh’s numbers with mchale with josh starting as an 18 year old; he compares favorably at the halfway point for the number of years mchale was in the league.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3834/career;_ylt=AqQc3UHcUHTfXCGEXs9y6roCPaB4

pretty impressive for a young lad of just 24 is it? now if they can get owners committed to winning a championship…like that which is prevalent in the celtic tradition then we might see hof associated with those guys. no he isnt the best at his position but he continues to work at it diligently and as ld said he was amazed the guy went and learned all the positions in the new offense which no one else did.

now nire, to continue the discussion with players of the same era, would you rather have bosh playing pf for you, who will probably get the nod for the all star game instead of josh or josh though bosh’s numbers clearly are better?

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
11:34 am

Doc,

What is your evidence that age of a player is more important than years in the league? Moses, KG, Kobe, and LeBron didn’t need 7 years to make their first All-Star and All-NBA teams. They needed 1 or 2. Josh has been in the league 7 years. He has 0 All-Star appearances. Zero. Zip. Nada. Nil. None. He has one All-NBA defensive second team selection. That’s his only accolade worthy of note after 7 years in the league.

He regressed from last year (the only year in his career where there were even whispers that he was All-Star caliber) to this year, as anyone who watches the games rather than just looking at the stat sheets (which includes you, presumably) would agree with. To say at this point in his career that he has the potential to be as good as a 7-time All-Star, top 50/first ballot guy is foolish. There’s no kinder word to describe that opinion. Come on, doc. Ask that question of Mike Fratello, Hubie Brown, or someone else who studies the game more than us. Ask them to use a single adjective to describe that opinion. I’d be amazed if the response is any kinder than “foolish.”

doc

February 1st, 2011
11:43 am

it is foolish to put josh in the same category as kobe, kg or the laqueen and i almost said it. some are works in progress some arent as the come out of high school and josh a number 15 draft pick, well the kid has come a long way baby.

now, do you want bosh who is an all star instead of josh or josh as your pf?

heh heh, either answer might be hard for you to stomach nire. ;-)

you might go fifth on me.

Astro Joe

February 1st, 2011
11:53 am

You can’t blame Bibby for his physical limits anymore than you can blame Horford for not being able to adequately defend Dwight Howard. At the same time, Teague isn’t the answer. The reason we haven’t watched Teague play 20-25 minutes with the starters is because LD hasn’t yet decided to “throw a game”. Just because Bibby struggles defensively doesn’t make Teague the answer at PG. It just means that we have a PG problem. Teague would only create a different problem if giving big minutes.

Some of y’all cried last year that Woody didn’t give Teague a chance. Can you honestly say that LD didn’t give Teague a chance in the first 20+ games of this season? Didn’t LD hire an assistant specifically to work with Teague, didn’t he discuss Teague as a potential starter during the summer… hasn’t he tried to give the youngster all kind of chances to earn a spot in the rotation? Can you honestly say that LD has not tried to set this guy up for success (without sacrificing team goals)?

You know how bad Teague is? So bad that he is the 3rd string PG behind Bibby and Jamal DESPITE his head coach’s desire to have him become the team’s starter. He has gone from potential starter to 3rd string PG in about 3 months. Some of y’all need to exit the Teague bandwagon before it crashes into a 6-foot thick brick wall.

Astro Joe

February 1st, 2011
11:58 am

Melvin, remember when Kobe took it upon himself to guard Westbrook during the playoffs last season? Do you not remember all of the “Derek Fisher” is done talk during that Thunder series? Jordan Farmar (young, quick, athletic PG) was cut loose and his job was given to Steve Blake. Our GM still has faith in the young, quick, athletic PG he drafted a few years ago. Me? I’d take Steve Blake (or Chris Duhon, Earl Watson and even Jason Williams).

Rufus1

February 1st, 2011
12:17 pm

The devil we Know(Bibby)..The Devil we don’t(Teague)

People defend Bibby because he is the “Devil they know”…They know his history for hitting big shot and playing big, in big games. THAT IS NOT THE BIBBY WE HAVE!!!!

The Bibby we have is OLD, SLOW and has been missing BIG SHOTS, in BIG GAMES. He is not the Bibby of 7 years ago, please stop giving the benefit of the doubt. He has been brutal recently and no one can tell me TEAGUE WOULD BE WORSE.

We have Sam Cassell as our starting PG and ASG will not stand for this much longer. LD promised to develop Teague and bibby isn’t good enough to justify his lack of playing time.

I EXPECT A CHANGE AFTER THE ALLSTART BREAK.

Rufus1

February 1st, 2011
12:30 pm

Teague is atleast as good a shooter as Brandon Jennings…38%

Jennings started and Ridinour came off the bench.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
12:56 pm

Doc,

A year ago I would have said Josh. Now I would say Bosh.

As for the “work-in-progress” thing, that’s exactly my point. You can’t still be a “work-in-progress” with zero All-Star appearances seven years in the league and have a realistic chance of becoming a first ballot Hall of Famer. You just can’t. Josh won’t make the All-Star team this year, so you’re hinging your assessment of Josh’s potential on the chance that he’ll break through and become a perennial All-Star starting in his 8th year in the league. That’s just foolish. Sorry, but it is.

It’s incredibly rare to find players who make the leap from “good-but-not-All-Star” to “perennial All-Star” level after they’ve been in the league as long as Josh has. The closest example I can think of is Steve Nash, and even he had an All-Star appearance in his 6th and 7th years. Also, Nash was a guy who did 4 years of college, which indicates to me once again that age matters less than experience after you’ve been around the league a few years. Once you’ve been around the league that long, your odds of breaking through to become a superstar are slim, regardless of how old you were when you were drafted.

Find me a player – high schooler or no – who did not make an All-Star game in his first 7 seasons, but went on to become a Hall of Famer. I can’t think of a single one. To expect Josh to do it is beyond foolish, because Josh relies on his athleticism more than almost any other player in the league. Once that starts to go, I don’t see how he will have a prayer of making an All-Star game, so I have a very hard time seeing where all this “potential” is.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
1:00 pm

To clarify on Josh/Bosh, the reason I would take Bosh now is my newfound opinion that it’s time to change for the sake of change. Also, like it or not, Bosh has been called a franchise player for years. Josh never has.

O'Brien

February 1st, 2011
1:08 pm

“I’d take Steve Blake (or Chris Duhon, Earl Watson and even Jason Williams).”Astro .

With Orlando paying big money to Jameer and Arenas, I think Chris Duhon
can be had for the TPE. That would give us a backup PG, and it would allow Orlando to save some money off their $90 mil payroll. The bad thing is, it would put ASG into luxury tax.

J. Williams has been released by Orlando, and he is a Florida guy. I think the Hawks could get him for cheap to be another backup PG option (especially when both Bibby and Jamal are struggling).

However, the Hawks are at 15 players already, with Etan and Sy occupying the 2 last spots. I think Hawks should have left one spot open.

doc

February 1st, 2011
1:35 pm

very little info on bosh whereas i know you have said over and over he was very over rated. is that really your opinion or just a follow up to a different topic?

doc

February 1st, 2011
1:52 pm

yeah nire i dont remember you ever saying bosh was franchise material. durant didnt seem to think it either.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
1:58 pm

Doc,

I don’t think I’ve ever said Bosh was very overrated. I put him in the same class as guys like JJ, Garnett, Pierce, Gasol, etc – good enough to be the clear alpha dog on a playoff team, but has to have another alpha dog alongside him whose game complements his own in order to contend. I think that last year was the only year in Josh’s career where I’d have rather had Josh than Bosh. This year, I think Bosh is back to being a half-step above Josh in the league’s PF pecking order. But my main concern about Josh right now isn’t that I think his game is insufficiently impressive. It’s that this core needs to be shaken, and Josh is the only member of the core who could realistically be included in a trade proposal.

Hawkfan2

February 1st, 2011
2:26 pm

If you’re an Atlanta/Georgia Sports fan and want to talk with other fans, check out our NEW message board.

http://www.atlsportsnation.com/forum

We have team forums for the Falcons, Bulldogs, Hawks, Braves, Yellow Jackets, Thrashers, etc. Please register and post! Be apart of a huge site in the early days of existence. See ya there!

ATLSportsNation

February 1st, 2011
2:27 pm

If you’re an Atlanta/Georgia Sports fan and want to talk with other fans, check out our NEW message board.

http://www.atlsportsnation.com/forum

We have team forums for the Falcons, Bulldogs, Hawks, Braves, Yellow Jackets, Thrashers, etc. Please register and post! Be apart of a huge site in the early days of existence. See ya there!

Ken Strickland

February 1st, 2011
2:44 pm

ASTRO JOE-Teague may not be the answer, but he offers us a much better option for the 30.3MPG we’re now wasting on Bibby. Teague at least has the ability and/or potential to get better in most areas, while Bibby continues to regress right before our eyes. And didn’t we see Bibby go through this same scenario last yr? After bringing in several vet PG’s(TLue, SClaxton, AJohnson and MBibby) over the last few yrs, and having only short term success at best, wouldn’t you think at least one of our 2 HC’s would have enough sense to commit to developing one of the PG’s we’ve drafted(SStaudemire, RIvey, ALaw, JTeague)?
Here’s a partial list of PG’s that lead the NBA in turnovers.
1-RRondo———-4.0TO’s, 12.6APG,10.4PPG
2-PWestbrook—-3.8TO’s, 8.5APG
3-SNash————3.6TO’s, 11APG,, 17.0PPG
4-DRose———–3.5TO’s, 8.1APG, 24.4PPG
5-DWilliams——-3.4TO’s, 9.4APG, 21.9PPG
6-RFelton———–3.3TO’s, 8.9APG, 17.2PPG
7-TParker———–2.5TO’s, 6.9APG, 21.1PPG
8-AMiller————-2.5TO’s, 7.1APG,
9-CPaul————-2.3TO’S, 9.7APG, 16.7PPG

How many of you would refuse to acquire or start any of these PG’s over Bibby just because he sets good picks and has a much lower assist to turnover ratio than they do? This is the type of accross the board production we should be striving for, and it won’t happen unless we make a committment to developing our young PG. Making excuses like:
1-I thought he’d be farther along in his development, or
2-I want to see more aggressiveness on DEF, or
3-I want to see him play with wreckless abandon, or
4-he can’t shoot, or
5-he’s too passive, or
6-he can’t run a team, etc,
just to justify giving 30.3MPG to an aging PG, who’s already limited OFF/DEF abilities and low production are in rapidly declining right before our very eyes as the season progresses.

Hell yes we can do better than JTeague as our starting PG, and I hope we do by the trade deadline. However, we can’ t continue pretending we can’t do better than Bibby right now, without having to make a trade..

Astro Joe

February 1st, 2011
3:39 pm

Strickland, the head coach that you endorsed quite enthusiastically has said that he can’t do better than Bibby with the current roster. And that same coach gave that same player plenty of time to earn a consistent spot in the rotation.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 1st, 2011
5:26 pm

“Find me a player – high schooler or no – who did not make an All-Star game in his first 7 seasons, but went on to become a Hall of Famer.”

Jermaine O’Neal doesn’t fit your criteria perfectly, but he wasn’t an All-Star caliber player until year 6, and you could make the argument that if he had stayed healthy he may have put up the kind of numbers that would have him in the Hall of Fame conversation. Not a great example, but it’s not like nobody has come close to achieving what you said.

In any case, I think you’re selling Smoove a little short in portraying him as overly reliant on his athleticism. If Smoove was all athleticism he’d be Tyrus Thomas. Four years ago he had no semblance of a post game, whereas he at least has a somewhat reliable lefty hook now. One year ago his jump shot was awful; now it is at least passable. He has developed into one of the better passing big men in the league. It’s not out of the question that a guy who has improved at least one aspect of his game every offseason will continue to improve. One year ago I would have never guessed that Smoove would hit 3’s at a 38% clip over half a season; it’s not out of the question that he could similarly improve his currently below average handles and low post game to the point of being a 20 ppg scorer.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 1st, 2011
5:30 pm

“He regressed from last year (the only year in his career where there were even whispers that he was All-Star caliber) to this year”

He hasn’t regressed in terms of skills. His efficiency numbers are worse because he’s allowed to shoot long jumpers by LD, which he wasn’t allowed to do by Woody. That’s not a trivial difference; it indicates that his skill set is still growing, even if his decision making hasn’t kept pace.

Najeh Davenpoop

February 1st, 2011
5:48 pm

“The reason we haven’t watched Teague play 20-25 minutes with the starters is because LD hasn’t yet decided to “throw a game”. Just because Bibby struggles defensively doesn’t make Teague the answer at PG. It just means that we have a PG problem. Teague would only create a different problem if giving big minutes.”

Would “throwing a game” at this point be such a bad idea?

Let’s face it: the best case scenario for the Hawks this year is the 4 seed. Whether they get the 4 or the 5, they are going to play Orlando, and their home-road split this year is not nearly as bad as it has been in years past. They have won a road playoff game in the first round the last two years. The 6 seeded Knicks are 4.5 games behind the Hawks and slumping. Would it really be that bad of an idea for the Hawks to play Teague big minutes against some team like the Raptors that they could probably beat with Royal Ivey starting?

Worst case scenario, Teague shows nothing, they lose to a team they should beat, and they continue to maintain their current standing. Best case, Teague gains confidence and gets comfortable playing with the starters and takes a major step toward mercifully replacing the immobile, one-dimensional Bibby.

Whether you like Teague or not, glossing over the fact that point guard is the major weakness on this team right now is something that should be limited to Rick Sund’s delusional ass.

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
5:59 pm

Sorry, Najeh, but if the best you can come up with is Jermaine O’Neal, you’re not getting very warm. I would be shocked if JON gets a single vote for the Hall of Fame. Unlike Josh, JON wasn’t getting consistent minutes from day 1 because he was on the team with the best big man depth in NBA history (no exaggeration); JON wasn’t even a rotation player until year 5.

The “if he stayed healthy” thing kills me. It always bugs me when people say “oh, he was great except for his injuries” or “he could have been great if not for his injuries.” The ability to stay healthy is a key part of being an athlete. I actually would argue that it is THE most important part of being an athlete. It doesn’t matter what natural talents a player has if he can’t stay healthy. If the injury is caused by a freak accident totally disconnected from training and competition (as happened with Monica Seles and Roberto Clemente), that’s one thing. But if your body’s build (Yao), your style of play (Rafa Nadal in tennis), or even if it’s the result of an avoidable in-competition injury (like Bo Jackson), I simply don’t view it as a “mitigating factor.” The ability to stay healthy – whether through physical gifts, training/condition, or playing style – or lack thereof is an inseparable part of being athlete. I don’t see how it can be viewed separately any more than strength, quickness, or awareness can.

So saying “he would have been a Hall of Famer if he had stayed healthy” is like saying “Jeff Hornacek could have been a Hall of Famer had he been a better athlete” or “Derrick Coleman could have been a Hall of Famer had he given a damn.”

He hasn’t regressed in terms of skills. His efficiency numbers are worse because he’s allowed to shoot long jumpers by LD, which he wasn’t allowed to do by Woody. That’s not a trivial difference; it indicates that his skill set is still growing, even if his decision making hasn’t kept pace.

He was “allowed” to shoot long jumpers by Woody. He shot a lot of them last year. He just didn’t shoot 3s. And even THAT proved to be a 1-year only deal.

In any case, how do you define “skill” if you aren’t including basketball IQ, shot selection, effort, etc? Why is regressing in terms of shot selection any less worrisome than regressing in jumper consistency or rebounds?

niremetal

February 1st, 2011
6:04 pm

Sorry, Najeh – I know you admitted that it wasn’t spot-on, but I have to point out that in response to my request for an example of a Hall of Famer who didn’t make an All-Star game until his 8th season or later, the only example you came up with was a guy who won’t make the Hall of Fame and who made an All-Star game in his 6th season ;)

Ken Strickland

February 1st, 2011
6:55 pm

ASTRO JOE-yes, I endorsed LDrew, and I still do, but that doesn’t mean I’ll agree with everything he chooses to say or do. Remember, Woodson frequently repeated basically the same things about ALaw and JTeague. Like LDrew, Woodson also depended heavily on Bibby, and gave him heavy mins. NOW GUESS WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM!

I think Drew believed his motion OFF would make Bibby more productive, and it did, during the early part of the schedule. But now that teams are catching up to everything, and Bibby has started to wear down, his OFF/DEF liabilities are now placing a burden on the team. It’s not Bibby’s fault that he can no longer do what is required. It’s LDrew’s fault for continuing to put him in this position and then blaming Teague for his decision because he feels he doesn’t have the desired attitude.

I hope he doesn’t go completely stupid and start holding JJ’s rather passive attitude against him. I’d give up Bibby’s pick setting ability any day in favor of Teague’s speed, quickness, athleticism, and greater assist, scoring, turnover and defensive potential.

My #1 preference would be for us to acquire either DHarris or JCalderon by the trade deadline.

Astro Joe

February 1st, 2011
7:02 pm

Najeh, I agree that PG is an issue, I just don’t see Teague as the answer. And neither does LD (evidently). Teague had every chance to show and prove and the result of his audition was essentially a demotion from constant rotational player to a guy who sometimes plays AFTER Jordan Crawford.

At this point, I’d rtaher see JC2 get 10-12 minutes at PG, if we’re so interested in experimentation at that position.