Hawks fans: When is patience no longer a virtue?

Are you thinking what I’m thinking? If it’s “here we go again,” then we’re thinking the same thing.

Another fourth quarter collapse. Another quick point guard doing the Hawks in. Another set of typical quotes from two of the team’s captains. Another vein of frustration popping out of the coach’s forehead. Perspectives from AL, Larry, and Joe are becoming the norm these days. But that is not the problem at all. The problem is that those perspectives haven’t changed one bit, because the situation has not changed.

Patience, patience

That’s why management preaches. That’s not what you’re hearing from Head Coach Larry Drew, though. No, what we’re hearing from him is long-suffering. There is a fundamental difference between the two. Patience is realizing that a non-lottery draft pick might need a bit more work than a lottery draft pick. Patience is understanding that a new offensive philosophy or a new rotation player added to the mix takes some time to develop. Patience is doing the best you can as a team while waiting for injured starters to heal.

Patience is not making the same exact mistakes again and again, despite the fact that you should know by now (after 2 or 3 years) what will cause you to lose the lead in a game. Why is shot selection still an issue?

The Usual Suspects, The Usual Results

Joe Johnson is the best player on this team and the guy you want to have the ball in the worst situations. How does he end up taking only two more shots than the team’s sixth man, and seven less shots than the team’s worst perimeter shooting starter? You can criticize Joe for taking too many jumpers if you choose. But the fact is, Joe is a shooter and scorer. You WANT him to shoot.

Jamal Crawford is a streak shooter. Either he’s good, or he’s bad. There is little middle ground with Jamal. Do you want him to shoot? Yes. It’s what he does. But you have to understand that shoot is what he’s going to do, whether he’s on or not. On the other end of the floor, there is nothing to balance things out, plain and simple. The good news is that Jamal does know how to get to the line.

Now for the self-made whipping boy, Josh Smith. Josh has gotten to where he can make shots from the outside. The problem is that in his mind, can is the same as will. Smith’s early season perimeter success has eroded on a near day-to-day basis, and I truly believe that much of this has to do with him trying to establish his offense outside first, instead of inside. The problem with this is that it’s the exact opposite of what his coach has been trying to tell him. And there it is – Josh not listening again. Still. When will this change? Will it change?

Taking Notes

Rick Sund says the Hawks like their core, and that they are going to be patient with the team. But when is patience no longer a virtue? How long can the Hawks afford to stay with the status quo? We’re not talking about making random changes here. We’re talking about fixing actual problems. When do the excuses run out? How long is ownership and management going to take an “Oh, it will be fine” stance?

Maybe Sund should start taking note of the things some of his most valued players are saying. Maybe he should pay attention to the words coming from the mouth of the very man he “hired” to change that which has not changed. Sooner or later this will be simply too much. Sooner or later regression takes hold for good, until something significant is done. The Hawks keep saying it can happen from within, but can it? They say they’re aware of the main problem. A couple of wins go by and all is somewhat good. Then the inevitable happens and it’s back to the same quotes, the same hanging heads, the same shrugging shoulders.

Perhaps Al Horford said it best :

“I guess when it gets to a point where it hurts you and really bothers you, then you do something about it. I don’t know that we’re there as a team yet.”

Does it hurt the team enough yet, or have they passed the point of where they are collectively aware (translation: are there guys who simply don’t care enough)? How about management? Are there enough guys on the floor to fix the situation, or does the fix have to come from higher? More than ever, it seems that this questions leans harder towards the latter, rather than the former.

Flip Side of the Coin

Not all is gloom and doom. At the very least, the Hawks have gotten past the injury bug for the moment. Al Horford looked like he didn’t miss a beat against Milwaukee, hitting 7 of 9 shots and adding another nice double double to his collection. Meanwhile, Marvin looked rather effective coming off the bench. This is certainly good news for a Hawks team that may need to experiment a bit more to find the best possible chemistry that it can, seeing as how the schedule will only get tougher.

273 comments Add your comment

niremetal

January 30th, 2011
12:34 pm

Yeah that didn’t work. Time to call the webmaster, Ray…

niremetal

January 30th, 2011
12:35 pm

Or not? Maybe it was just on that last page. Weird.

O'Brien

January 30th, 2011
1:54 pm

Last year, the Hawks lost 29 games. Of those 29 losses, we failed to score more than 19 points in the fourth quarter 11 times .

This season, despite the motion offense, we are struggling even more than we did last year in the fourth quarter.

Of our 18 losses this season, there have been 9 . games where we failed to score more than 19 points in the fourth.

That is unacceptable. If you cannot score in the fourth, and you cannot stop the other team from scoring, how are you supposed to win?

As long as we have Bibby and Jamal on the court together in the fourth quarter, we will always be inconsistent.

O'Brien

January 30th, 2011
2:07 pm

Ken S,

You’re right. Bibby’s averages/numbers the last 5 games have been downright horrible.

29 mpg, 5-18 from 3 (28%), 12-32 from the field (38%), 6 ppg, 2 apg, 4 rpg (and 1 FT TOTAL in 5 games).

His January numbers are not pretty either.

32 mpg, 8 ppg, 3 apg, and 3 rpg, and he only shot 39% from 3.

But look on the bright side, he has a really good assist to turnover ratio :wink:

lamar

January 30th, 2011
3:12 pm

the hawks do need to make a move. not a huge move, but one that makes sense. point guard! no superstar, but a general. hawks lack attitudefrom that position. another coach on the court. but we as fans can criticize ownership, subs, and drew. but we as atlanta hawks fans don’t even support this team. lets face it. we probably won’t get a chris paul. and we can’t blame ownership for not trying. we went years without winning. we complained. we win. we complain. but we don’t go to the games. more empty seats then fans. 13 wins is what we endured. losing for 10 years. we are what is missing. this team can’t win a championship. but they do win games. how many games we as fans help them lose. I wouldn’t want to play hard when the fans don’t care. we are hawks fans! give some love before we bash everyone in the organization. did we do ours. if we go to games, maybe they can make a move. its been 4 years of winning and no fans. love what we have so they can move forward. or we going to lose it all! stop it atlanta fans.

Mantis

January 30th, 2011
3:23 pm

I would like to encourage everybody to start following and supporting the Atlanta Dream, the reigning WNBA Eastern Conference Champion, next WNBA season. The dream have become what the Hawks could have become many years ago, and they have done it in less time, with less resources. They have real superstars that consistently bring real results.

Let’s look at how the Atlanta hawks flushed a potentially good season down the toilet
1. Overpaying Joe Johnson, who is about to turn 30 years old and has never demonstrated the ability to win a championship.
2. Failing to acquire a free agent during the summer of 2010
3. Failing to sign Shaquille O’Neal, who was interested in coming to the Hawks, but is now having a great season with the Boston Celtics.
4. Drafting Jordan Crawford, only to let him rot on the bench despite his impressive feat of scoring over 30 points in his first game in the league.
5. Letting Maurice Evans get minutes over Jordan Crawford (seriously, why do we still have Mo Evans?)
6. Passing up Byron Scott and Avery Johnson for Larry Drew.

I am wondering if ASG is in cahoots with David Stern and is intentionally punking the Hawks so they can find an excuse to sell them to another city. The mediocrity of the Hawks is the result of bad decisions that a fourth grader would not have made.

Mantis

January 30th, 2011
3:25 pm

Also, I want to see Joe Johnson’s contract. It doesn’t make sense that Jordan Crawford is being railroaded so badly. I think that there is something in Joe Johnson’s contract that is limiting Jordan’s minutes. And I also wonder if Joe Johnson is having an affair with one of the ASG members.

niremetal

January 30th, 2011
4:45 pm

drmaryb *_*

January 30th, 2011
4:47 pm

I’m still shocked that J-Smoov got fined for grabbing his penis.

Ken Strickland

January 30th, 2011
7:15 pm

DOC-If Bibby had to earn his mins based on the same criteria we’re using to judgeTeague, he’d have an even harder time getting off the bench. It’s not that I see so much in Teague, I just see a whole lot more in him than I see in Bibby. As least one can reasonably say Teague has the potential to get better in all areas if given more consistent mins and support, but we all know that’s not the case with Bibby. With Bibby, we’ll most likely get less, not more, as the season progresses.

I just don’t understand the idea of dismissing Teague and his potential just because he’s not giving us more, but we’re somehow perfectly willing to accept even less from Bibby. After averaging 28.2MPG over a stretch of 5gms and giving us 6PPG and 3.1APG, why in the hell aren’t we demanding more from Bibby? What exactly is he doing that demands he be on the floor up to 30+MPG? His scoring, as well as his ability to score, is decreasing, and his DEF will always be an issue, no matter how much effort he puts forth.

Bibby isn’t giving us much NOW, and he’s certainly not going to give us any more in the future, so what’s the agenda? Teague, and virtually every other player drafted, were drafted based on POTENTIAL. As desperate as we are for improved PG production, all of a sudden we’re willing to throw all of that out of the window in favor of an over the hill PG that’s slow, unathletic, offensively/defensively limited, that has given us nothing but mediocrite for the last 1.5 seasons.

A CHAIN IS NO STRONGER THAN ITS WEAKEST LINK, and everyone knows Bibby is our weakest link, which is why teams target him relentlessly.

doc

January 30th, 2011
10:43 pm

ken, i am on record for not being that impressed ever with the acquisition of bibby always thinking he was grossly overpaid for what he brought and would have preferred that money spent elsewhere. unfortunately i was always dismissing the law pick and have never seen anything of ongoing substance with teague in there. sadly bibby has been the lesser of the evils that have trailed this organization since doc and mookie. i like woody and ld would hitch my wagon to bibby with the lack of other choices management has provided.

dirty

January 31st, 2011
1:08 am

I like da fact da Williams got into a fight, now if he can produce some points. Williams is a waste of roster slot for the Hawks. I think he need to produce before the trade deadline or they need to deal him while someone out there want him. We need a lil spark on our team and stop getting pushed around. Just when you think Smith is growing up he goes out and do something stupid, this kid have all the talent in the world, he can be better than C Anthony if he work on his game, attitude and work habits durning the offseason. He shots 3s when he souldn’t and he’s satisfied where he’s at right now.

dirty

January 31st, 2011
1:09 am

Marvin Williams for Marcus Camby

O'Brien

January 31st, 2011
7:14 am

doc,

When Woody was let go, one of the things Gearon said was he didnt think Woody gave Teague enough PT. It will be interesting to hear how they feel about LD and Teague this season.

I agree that Bibby is the lesser of 2 evils, but his January numbers are down, and his last 5 games have been horrible. If that trend continues, Hawks need to either let Teague play and take his lumps, or bring in another PG.

Bad basketball weekend for the Hawks. Celtics won, Miami won and Orlando won, so Hawks drop another game back in the standings.

As the season continues, it looks the Hawks will be in the battle for 3rd, 4th, or 5th seed (with 4th or 5th being most likely).

O'Brien

January 31st, 2011
7:16 am

Props to Kevin Durant calling out Chris Bosh.

Said Durant “Just because Bosh is on a good team now, he thinks he can talk trash.” Kevin went on to add “There are alot of fake tough guys in this league, and Bosh is one of them.”

doc

January 31st, 2011
8:16 am

o’b OH, but you forgot he didnt make any to’s in five games playing over 150 minutes without one. ;-)

Astro Joe

January 31st, 2011
9:45 am

In the Dallas game, the Hawks were up by a point (I think) headed into the 4th quarter. LD took ALL 3 captains out to start the quarter. A few short minutes later, the game was lost and the starters couldn’t put Humpty-Dumpty back together again. LD needs to figure out how to substitute in a manner that keeps at least 2 captains on the floor in the 4th quarter. As OB pointed out, we officially have at least as big of a 4th quarter-scoring problem as last year. Jamal is NOT sufficient to hold the line to begin the 4th quarter. History has already shown that Jamal and 4 guys named Moe isn’t a winning recipe.

I wouldn’t mind seeing someone like DeShawn Stevenson paired with Teague on the bench next season.

Mr Mojo

January 31st, 2011
9:54 am

The only problem with thsi team is ownership. They refuse to make a move to put this team over the top. The answer is nto trading one fo your core players the answer is putting the right role players around this core which these owners and gm refuse to do. They need inside toughness which everyone knew they should of signed Shaq for toughness and most important leadership. But besisdes that they just wont add anyone. Do they think people are stupid? Do you really think you are going to win in the playoffs with guys like Collins, wilkens and Evans coming off the bench? The just refuse to add players to not go over the luxury tax and its a crime cause this team with the right role players could be very dangerous in the playoffs. But as is now most likely will be same result as last 2 years and if they face Orlando in the first rd we may not even get out of the 1st rd. Time for ASG to step up and help give this team a better chance in the playoffs or sell the team to someone who will.

Mr Mojo

January 31st, 2011
9:55 am

Sorry for spelling. typing on my iphone while I travel to work.

doc

January 31st, 2011
9:59 am

mr mojo, i hope you are taking marta to work.

vava74

January 31st, 2011
10:23 am

Rod,

Lame, lame, lame!

Your arguments are pitiful and guess what?? Completely wrong:

“All of the players you listed don’t have all those negative qualities either.”

All the guys I mentioned as huge contract mistakes suffer from the exact same problems that Jamal does and that I pointed out:

All play(ed) little or no D, either by being inept or disinterested and were/are notoriously soft and self absorbing: Marbury, Derrick Coleman, Eddie Curry, Glenn Robinson, JR Rider, Francis, …

Name one of this guys who was ever known to be a team-first player and played any good or at least earnest D.

The only thing Jamal has as an advantage with regard to these guys is that character wise he seems to be a good guy and the guys above were/are mostly idiots and pricks.

Jamal makes the exact same bad decisions, maybe without being himself a selfish prick, but the end result is the same: his bball is mostly courtyard basketball.

“Yeah, the great Joe Johnson, Chauncy Billups, Ray Allen, Jason Kidd, Al Jefferson, Tracy McGrady, Steve Nash (most Valuable player)……… come to mind. Guess none of these guys were valuable huh. (LOL)”

Nash signed as a free agent, he was not traded. Cuban made a huge mistake by not opening the purse and match the contract offer from PHO.

JJ was a sign n trade: meaning that he was traded because HE demanded or he would leave as a FA.

On these two, what is exactly your point?… ummm… none, right?

Tracy McGrady has been a loser all his life: zero playoff series won. Another excellent example of individual talent + big contract – no heart, no D = ZERO success.

Where do you want to go with this example??? McGrady is just a “better Jamal” which is still NOT GOOD ENOUGH..

Billups was traded when he was not even seen as a good player. He was a journeyman until he joined the Pistons and flourished there LATE in his career.

Ray Allen is the only good example I concede: he was traded by MIL for virtually nothing. But is this enough for you to boast?

Kidd was traded by Dallas (when young) for a package that included Finley and Cassell, both well established players that went along to have many productive years after the trade.

Not a lopsided deal.

Later Kidd was traded when already old in a trade many consider a mistake by Dallas and a good trade by NJ.

Again, not a good example.

Al Jefferson was traded for Garnett, so give me a break will you?

And… guess what, Al is still a sub par defensive player and a guy with many issues. It’s not like Utah is tearing it with him at the middle.

I would call Jefferson a semi-Jamal playing in the post. Talented, yes, but where are the wins?

Jamal? Jamal has been traded ALWAYS for little to nothing (wikipedia with my commentaries):

“Professional career
Early career
After being drafted in 2000 as a freshman by the Cleveland Cavaliers, he was traded on draft day to the Chicago Bulls for their pick, Chris Mihm. Whoooaaa!!!

After four seasons in Chicago, prior to the 2004–05 season, he was traded (along with Jerome Williams) to the Knicks for Dikembe Mutombo (who was 80 years old already), Othella Harrington, Frank Williams and Cezary Trybanski (3 powerhouse players don’t you think?).

Golden State Warriors

On November 21, 2008, Crawford was traded to the Golden State Warriors for forward–center Al Harrington. (Similar players here – talented, but ultimately not useful to their teams’ success)

Atlanta Hawks

On June 25, 2009, Crawford was traded to the Atlanta Hawks for Acie Law and Speedy Claxton. (what great value GS got here !!!”

Give me a break Rod. To know how to put a ball in the hoop and having played organized but ultimately amateur bball does not make you an expert on what is necessary for NBA success.

Facts are facts: Jamal has not made his teams better.

As for 47 wins (Flip) – 53 wins (Jamal), here are some differences:

Al’s improvement/growth;
A LOT less injuries ;
Smoove not shooting 3 pointers;

Look at the Hawks’ defensive stats and see the marked decay with Flip to with Jamal.

As for Vinnie Johnson:

Vinnie was a better rebounder and a better passer. Check the stats.

Also, beyond stats: Vinnie got his points when it mattered, in crunch time or early 4th. And you pointed out well that he averaged 25 minutes per game.

Jamal averages 30+ and often plays 35.

Jamal scored last year mostly in runs during the late 1st and 2nd quarters. Look at http://www.82games.com and see his last year’s clutch stats (last 5 min of the game + OT).

It’s true that he had a few very good games for us this year but even a broken watch is right twice a day.

Jamal is not a catastrophe, don’t get me wrong, but his ability to contribute should be carefully assessed and his talent harnessed.

IF, LD used Jamal wisely (no more than 20/25 minutes per) he could stay, but he is too much of a temptation that goes wrong most of the time.

niremetal

January 31st, 2011
11:37 am

Vava, providing a second example (the first being me) of the need for filibuster reform on the blog ;)

Mr Mojo

January 31st, 2011
11:47 am

Also, Lets not forget we needed an experienced coach and instead went with a first time coach because he is the lowest paid coach in the NBA. Once again, the ownerships unwilling to spend the extra dollars to put them over the top. There was no point in giving JJ a max contract if you are not gonna fill out your roster the right way.

O'Brien

January 31st, 2011
12:32 pm

vava,

Although LD deserves some of the blame for overplaying Jamal, 2 other players deserve some of the blame; Marvin and Teague.

If Marvin would perform more consistently, then he would get more minutes (especially in the fourth and down the stretch). The better Marvin plays, means the less JJ has to play SF, so less minutes would be available for Jamal at SG.

Teague is involved as well, because if would play well more consistently, then he would get more minutes at backup PG. As it is right now, Jamal gets some of the backup PG minutes.

AJ,

I think LD made the same mistake in the fourth quarter of the Bucks game (the starters did not come back in until the 8:25 mark). By then, the other team has all the momentum, and we dont have the discipline to execute on offense, and we dont have the ability to play well on defense.

He may need to have at least 2 starters in there to start the 4th.

O'Brien

January 31st, 2011
12:36 pm

doc,

Based on what I have seen the last few games, I think Collins should get some more of ZaZa’s minutes.

So far, our bench has not gotten the job done, and this is why I think Hawks need to trade Jamal if it allows them to add more bench depth.

Marvin off the bench will help, but I dont think Jamal and Marvin will be enough.

Maybe Jamal’s salary can be used to improve 2 bench positions.

vava74

January 31st, 2011
1:07 pm

OB,

I understand LD: his first coaching gig and he is scared of taking chances and losing.

That does not make him right, though. And it’s a pity.

DMad

January 31st, 2011
2:17 pm

The issue dates back about 5 to 7 years ago when Billy Knight was the GM. We drafted the same position atleast 5 times in a row and now we’re paying for it. Sund didn’t have a choice but to pay Joe Joe, or lose him and recieve nothing. We have a bunch over payed slash forwards who don’t do anything great outside of AL so I am through with the Hawks. They can not get any of my hard earned cash until the owners and management get it together I’m done. I have nothing to look forward to atleast the Falcons had a chance and Mr. Blank wants to win, it seems like the Atlanta Spirit Group is just happy to own a team.

Rod from College Park

January 31st, 2011
3:11 pm

vava74,

You took up a page on this blog, and still have not proved anyone of your ridiculous statements to be true. All fluff but no meat. I’ll destoy you one more time.

“Valuable” young players are not traded when teams are rebuilding, they stay as part of the rebuilding procedure.

I listed a number of valuble young players that were traded from teams that were and are rebuilding. You went in to a long drawn out explanation of why the players I listed were traded, but the fact still remains that your statement was false.

“Ray Allen is the only good example I concede: he was traded by MIL for virtually nothing. But is this enough for you to boast?”

I was not boasting, I was responding to a bugus statement you made. Thanks for conceding. One player makes your statement false.

“All the guys I mentioned as huge contract mistakes suffer from the exact same problems that Jamal does and that I pointed out:”

Whether their contract was a mistake or not is irrelevant, and stating that guys like Derrick Coleman, and JR Rider suffer from the same problems as Jamal on the basketball court is an absurd statement.

“All play(ed) little or no D, either by being inept or disinterested and were/are notoriously soft and self absorbing: Marbury, Derrick Coleman, Eddie Curry, Glenn Robinson, JR Rider, Francis, …”

Do you know these guys personally? Funny to me that you can make statements on these guys personality flaws based on watching games on TV.

“Tracy McGrady has been a loser all his life: zero playoff series won. Another excellent example of individual talent + big contract – no heart, no D = ZERO success.”

So a guy who comes straight out of high school to the greatest basketball league in the world, becomes a 2 time NBA Scoring Champion, a 7 time NBA all star, voted 7 times to the All NBA team, was at one time one of the top 5 players in the league, and has made over $150 million dollars playing basketball is a loser for his whole life, but you are a winner. Love to know what you do for a living. Then to make it even worse, you bash Jamal Crawford, and Tracy McGrady, but stand up for Marvin Williams. So let me ask you this, would you take Tracy McGrady in his prime, or Marvin Williams in his prime? Marvin has won a playoff game, so that makes him a winner right. LOL

“Facts are facts: Jamal has not made his teams better.”

He has not made them worse either.

“Look at the Hawks’ defensive stats and see the marked decay with Flip to with Jamal.”

So you believe that our defensive stats have decreased because we don’t have Flip, and we have Jamal? I guess Bibby getting older and becoming more of a defensive liability has nothing to do with it? Coaching and switching our bigs on every play had nothing to do with it either huh? Teams making adjustments, and us doing the same thing for the past few years had no effect? I would have to disagree with your assertion.

“Also, beyond stats: Vinnie got his points when it mattered, in crunch time or early 4th. And you pointed out well that he averaged 25 minutes per game.”

Hate to inform you of this, but all points matter in a game. If you subtract 2 points that were scored in the first quarter from the end of the game total, you end up with 2 less points.

“Jamal makes the exact same bad decisions, maybe without being himself a selfish prick, but the end result is the same: his bball is mostly courtyard basketball.”

No Homo. I’m hoping that your courtyard basketball reference is not related to a much bigger and more concerning issue, but I digress…. If you do respond again, please stick to the points, and stop posting irrelevant articles and non supporting facts. Your research abilities don’t impress me especially if they don’t support your original statements.

Rod from College Park

January 31st, 2011
3:13 pm

Big Ray,

Release my post. I’m not retyping my response to the guy from Ringling brothers.

Ken Strickland

January 31st, 2011
3:29 pm

DOC-we’re not that far apart as far as our feelings and opinions on Bibby or Teague. I agree with you that ALaw wasn’t the answer, but he could have provided us with more production than he did if he’d been given the opportunity. He became the victim of 2 massive ego’s, and a power struggle between former GM BKnight and HC MWoodson. Woodson insisted on wanting a vet PG to run the half court, jumpshooting style of OFF he invisioned, and BK wanted a younger, quicker, faster PG to run the style of uptempo OFF he invisioned.

I feel the current starting lineup has just about reached it’s ceiling, and for it to get better some changes have to be made. The 1st change needs to be at the position of greatest weakness, and that’s PG, and JTeague is our only option at this point. I don’t see Teague becoming an All Star caliber PG, but he certainly has enough talent and skill to give us enough OFF/DEF production to drastically improve our starting lineup.

If Drew has no intention of making Teague an intrigal part of the rotation, we need to seriously consider figuring out a way to make a trade for either PG JCalderon or DHarris. If Toronto is interested in clearing salary, they could be very interested in getting rid of Calderon’s $9M salary. We could give them Bibby’s $5.56M salary, which becomes a very tradeable expiring contract after the season, and combine it with our $3.6M trade exemption.

Toronto would immediately save $3.44M, and could trade Bibby’s expiring contract after the season for draft picks. It would get us the PG we need, along with tremendous flexibility by allowing us to retain MEvans’ $2.5M & JaCrawford’s $10.8M expiring contracts.

Since it’s obvious the Mavericks are sold on TChandler as their starting center, they might not want to continue paying Heywood $6.9M to be a backup. I believe Zaza and MEvans’ expiring contracts might get it done. We’ve certainly got to do something, because Bibby can’t take this team anywere, expecially during the playoffs.

I don’t see Bibby as the lesser of two evils, but rather the lesser of the potential that could be realized by going with someone else.

Ken Strickland

January 31st, 2011
3:56 pm

DOC-If a PG does as little as Bibby does, and:
1-allows 2 other players(Jamal & JJ) to control the ball and the OFF as much or more than he does,
2-seldom penetrates or goes below the 3pt line with the ball in his possession,
3-limits his OFF production to hanging out at the 3pt line shooting 3’s,
4-never challenges defenders that pressure him, or tries to beat anyone off the dribble,

why wouldn’t he have 0 TO’s in 5gms, since he’s not really taking any chances or doing anything of note. I’ll bet there’s not a single PG that couldn’t go a 5 gm stretch without a TO if they committed to playing as conservatively as Bibby does. Imagine how much better DWilliams or CPaul’s assist to TO ratio would be if each decided not to go below the 3pt line with the ball in their hands, handled the ball less the 50% of the time, refused to beat anyone off the dribble, gave the ball up as soon as a defender applied any DEF pressure, and limited their OFF to shooting 3’s?

Zero TO’s over a 5gm stretch, and a limited offensive production that almost matches.

doc

January 31st, 2011
4:03 pm

ken, of course the zero to’s response to o’b was tongue in cheek info. yes, i saw the fallacy in that start like everyone else probably that you pointed out.

Astro Joe

January 31st, 2011
4:30 pm

Bibby has physical limitataions. Teague (seemingly) has mental limitations. Most performance managers are not going to reward someone who has a willingness issue. Bibby is willing to defend, he just doesn’t possess the physical tools to do it particularly well. But if you watch him, he does what he can… he tries to funnel his man to help defense, he tries to take away the opposing player’s strong hand… he does what he can but he isn’t as effective as we all wish. Teague, on the other hand (and based on LD’s recent comments to the beat writer), hasn’t shown a wilingness to play as instructed by his boss. So until he does, his boss isn’t likely to reward him with playing time. How can you expect to manage 13 other players if you allow a guy who willingly doesn’t follow instructions playing time? That’s the one and only power an NBA head coach possesses, distributing playing time. If LD gives that one chip away while Teague haf-heartedly follows his direction, then what else is left to use as a stick? Isn’t that how Josh became an undisciplined 7th year player, because the previous head coach didn’t correct behavior by denying playing time? (At least there was enough good Josh to move the team forward despite appearances from bad JOsh… the comparable good Jeff hasn’t made a team-altering impact).

At this point, this isn’t an LD problem nor a Bibby problem. The issue srests between Sund and Teague. Teague either needs get himself together or Sund needs to address the inconsistent PG play. But until one of those things happen, I say we hope for the best between Bibby and Jamal as our primary PGs.

And Biby wasn’t a penetrating PG at 25, it is just short of stupid to expect him to become that at this age.

niremetal

January 31st, 2011
5:16 pm

I agree with AJ re: Teague and Bibby. Bibby is a savvy (and strong for his size) defender, just not a quick one. Teague is the exact opposite – very quick and athletic, but neither strong nor smart. We don’t see what happens in practices, only what happens on the floor. If Player X is bad on the floor, I don’t see why it makes sense to argue that he should be playing more unless we have some supersecret inside knowledge that Player X is a practice superstar. That’s why I always have had a tough time saying “player X should be getting some of player Y’s PT” based on a need to “develop” player X or based on a perception that “because player Y clearly sucks, player X must be better.”

To be blunt, Teague has just flat out sucked during most of his time on the floor. He can’t shoot, he bites way too easy on ball fakes, he defends with his hands rather than by moving his feet, and he looks downright lost in transition both on offense and defense. The potential is there, but the execution isn’t even close. It’s not even a matter of consistency. He is consistent. He consistently sucks.

Bibby, for all his flaws, won’t do anything that affirmatively hurts the team. Like AJ said, he tries to funnel his man to the left and/or to the help on D. He doesn’t always succeed because his footspeed is so far gone, but at least he knows what he is supposed to do and makes a good-faith effort to do it. On offense, he still is great at the things he always has been great at – leading the fast break (apologies if there are any remaining blind people who think he rarely leads the break), knocking down open shots, setting screens (he’s been the best guard in the NBA at screens since Stockton retired), and running the pick and roll with Horford (a play that still isn’t called nearly enough). Yes, he’s having a cold streak shooting. But Teague’s been having a cold streak shooting for 16 months, so I don’t see that as a reason to bench Bibby in favor of Teague.

Until I see something from Teague on the floor, I won’t join the people calling for him to get more PT.

doc

January 31st, 2011
5:40 pm

nire, ditto dat. best option we have to date, just hope he rewarms his three ball sooner rather than later. count me among the blind because he doesnt lead the break too often or his assist numbers might be up a bit. assists have never been his forte anyway.

ATL FAN

January 31st, 2011
5:55 pm

Yet another great article, good stuff.

niremetal

January 31st, 2011
6:43 pm

Doc,

As you probably know, the guy who leads a successful break does not usually get an assist because 1) there usually are at least 2 passes (and basketball doesn’t have a 2-pass assist rule like hockey does…or so I’ve been told…); and 2) a foul is almost as common an end result as a field goal, and you don’t get an assist for a pass that leads to a foul.

Ken Strickland

January 31st, 2011
7:02 pm

DOC-like I said, we’re not that far off. Even though it might appear that I’m making a big issue of Teague over Bibby, it’s not. My issue is over us not taking full advantage of both, and to do that Teague needs to get more MPG and Bibby fewer.

NIREMETAL-Your attempt at an unbiased assessment of Teague vs Bibby fell way short. First, when it came to Teague, you went into detail pointing out all of what you see as his PERCEIVED shortcomings, especially on DEF. Yet, when it comes to Bibby, instead of making mention of his numerous flaws, you state, “BIBBY, FOR ALL HIS FLAWS, WON’T DO ANYTHING THAT AFFIRMATIVELY HURTS THE TEAM.” He’s not doing very much to affirmatively help the team either.

You criticized Teague for using his hands rather than his his feet on DEF, but you didn’t make mention of Bibby’s almost total reliance on using his hands, since, as you stated, “HE DOESN’T ALWAYS SUCCEED BECAUSE HIS FOOT SPEED IS SO FAR GONE.” Teague has the ability to improve on his DEF shortcomings, but can you honestly say the same for Bibby? How in the hell can our perimeter DEF improve if Bibby can’t improve his DEF? If we seriously expect to improve defensively, we need actual improvement and results, or at least the potential for actual improvement and better results, not just GOOD FAITH EFFORTS, which we all know is the very best we’ll ever get from Bibby and is way short of what’s needed.

Your claim that Teague CAN’T SHOOT is nothing more than a biased PERSONAL ASSUMPTION, and isn’t supported by any facts whatsoever, since there’s only a .2% difference in their FG%(BIBBY/TEAGUE FG%-44.5/42.5). Since when does a .2 difference in FG% make one a solid shooter, and the other one unable to shoot period? Because of Teague’s ability to beat defenders off the dribble, get into the lane draw fouls and get to the FT line, he can afford to have a FG% that’s .20% less than Bibby.

And don’t forget, in 11.9MPG Teague’s 1.9APG is only 1.8APG below Bibby’s declining 3.7APG in 30.3MPG. Teague’s PER is 12.9 to Bibby’s 12.1. On a prorated basis, Teague is as good in some areas as Bibby and better in others. Aside from his 3PTFG%, TO ratio, and the outstanding picks he sets, there’s absolutely nothing that proves Teague isn’t capable of outproducting Bibby if given the prerequisite mins. With a .65FT%, it might be good that Bibby doesn’t get to the FT line that often.

doc

January 31st, 2011
7:06 pm

some points are there at the end like nash, c paul etc. the fact he isnt there suggests to me he is not able to keep up nire which he doesnt. i consider the former leading a fast break not giving it up to josh smith and al to take it in. if there is one guard that does it is jj on this team or jamal. guess you see it how you want and interpret it the way you want. in basketball the first pass out of the defensive zone dosent court for much since usually it is a 2 on 3 or 1 on 2 situations where the guard is trying to take the defense to him with his quickness to leave an easy basket for the trailers.

vava74

January 31st, 2011
7:26 pm

nire,

With all due respect, Bibby is no longer starter material.

Still a very useful player, probably could be a top back up.

But the PG game we need to take the next step is what Teague showed in BOS.

Not coincidentally, either Jamal or JJ were injured. Or both?

LD had no option and the kid responded and did it on a tough environment.

Dejay

January 31st, 2011
8:07 pm

We all know what the problem is with this franchise. I think a poster said it best when he stated that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. That link is the ownership group, known as the Notorious A.S.G.

This group reminds me of a guy who finds his way into a hot club but since he’s such a cheapskate, he brings his own pimento sandwiches and a canned soda from Walgreens. He thinks he’s impressing everyone by telling folks how much he’s saving by not spending $$$ on the food there but they’re looking at him as if he should be in line outside with the other wannabees. By the end of the night, he finds himself on the wall, alone, and wondering why no one wants to be around him.

Case in point. The folks running this team want all the bells and whistles that the REAL elite teams in the league have but don’t want to pay the price they did in order to get there. They are totally satisfied with keeping the status quo and not doing anything that may take them out of their comfort zone. Why you think they followed up the JJ signing by bringing in a bunch of minimum-salary guys and giving the head coaching job to the assistant, only to hand him the lowest salary among NBA coaches?

It’s obvious to everyone who knows basketball that this team has fatal flaws that will show itself come playoff time (again). When it isn’t Smith trying to be Reggie Miller or JJ resorting back to his ISO-Joe days, it’s a laughable bench outside of Crawford and Marvin being, well, Marvin. All the city is waiting on is for the folks in charge to show us a sign that what they have isn’t enough and they’re willing to do what it takes to get to the next level. But knowing the history of this bunch, I wouldn’t hold my breath. Why?

Because these owners are a bunch of ‘wangstas’. They talk tough about what they want to do and how everyone in town should treat them making the playoffs as if its manna from heaven. Can you imagine Arthur Blank telling the paying public after the Green Bay loss that it if they had bought more $50 tickets and $8 beers, they would’ve gotten XYZ player? That’s like Ford or GM refusing to improve their products until more of the same, inferior ones were sold; huh???

So we’re stuck with a mediocre product and a mediocre group trying to sell it to the masses as if they’re the Lakers, Celtics, or Spurs. Good luck with that idea, ASG. It’s no small wonder why Philips stays empty more times than not…

Najeh Davenpoop

January 31st, 2011
9:24 pm

“I used to cry about the team’s lack of b-ball IQ but now I believe it is less IQ and more discipline. They know, they just too often don’t do. That doesn’t come from a lack of energy, it comes from a lack of discipline. They know that the salad is a better option than the bacon cheeseburger, they just choose to go with satisfying their craving much too often”

Great post.

Najeh Davenpoop

January 31st, 2011
9:28 pm

Based on Rick Sund’s comments at Hoopsworld, it doesn’t look like any of our patience is going to get rewarded any time soon.

O'Brien

January 31st, 2011
9:34 pm

nire,

Count me in the blind as well, because I dont see much of Bibby leading fast breaks.

How many times has Bibby led a one man fast break? He has 43 FTA in 48 games, so how many times has he gotten in the paint?

How many times does Josh and Al bring the ball downcourt on the fast break, while Bibby comes up the court and sets up by the 3 point line?

Maybe its just my perception, but I think he is lacking in the “leading the fastbreak” department.

O'Brien

January 31st, 2011
9:38 pm

Some of the good stuff from Rick Sund (from the Hoopsworld article).

“If you can get 50, that’s generally home court and that can get you through the first round and you’re kind of one of the elite teams.

Chemistry is so important, and if you look at San Antonio, in some ways they’re analogous to us,” Sund explains. “They got through the first round last year and got swept in four. We got through the first round last year and got swept in four. They didn’t really make any major changes and we didn’t make any major changes..

They’re a more veteran team than us, we started the season with three starters who are 24 or younger in Horford, Josh and Marvin. Joe, Bibby and Jamal .are all in their primes, so that combination is good. But we think continuity and chemistry are important for us, just as they have been for San Antonio.

When you’re all-pro you’re one of the top 15 players in the league.”.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=18628/

JJ was third team all NBA, so based on that recognition, he would be top 15.

How was that Chemistry last year Rick? And how about the fact that we still cant score in thr fourth quarter?

And how about the fact that the Spurs know they have the players to win a title because they have done it before. What do the Hawks know, except in the face of playoff adversity, they hang their heads.

And Rick thinks Bibby is in his prime? Interesting.

O'Brien

January 31st, 2011
9:41 pm

Ken S,

I’m with you on LD needing to limit Bibby’s minutes. but I am concerned that Teague has not shown him enough in practice and during the game to make LD reward him with consistent PT.

The blame cannot be put all on LD. Teague has to step up his play too. And if Teague can’t, then Rick and LD need to bring in another PG who can.

niremetal

January 31st, 2011
9:49 pm

O’Brien,

Yup, you and Doc are blind if you don’t think Bibby leads the break often. It’s only in the warped minds of the overenthusiastic fans of our bigs (you know, the ones who think Josh/Al have McHale/Parish potential) that Josh and Al lead more than a fraction of our breaks. I wish I had the MySynergy link to provide the exact stats, but last year those two were the ballhandler on something like 15% of our fastbreaks last year. Reality is that you notice whenever Josh and Al lead the break but choose to ignore it for whatever reason when Bibby and JJ do.

niremetal

January 31st, 2011
9:57 pm

On a prorated basis, Teague is as good in some areas as Bibby and better in others.

There’s a reason the stat-obsessed crew have backed off on using per-minute stats as a projection of what someone at the end of the bench could produce as a starter – there are far more false positives than true positives. Teague gets virtually all of his minutes against other teams’ second units. Put him against other teams’ first units, and he’d look even worse than he does right now. And right now, he looks terrible.

Astro Joe

January 31st, 2011
10:05 pm

On this team, Bibby is a starter and a finisher.

doc

January 31st, 2011
10:08 pm

if only josh and al had bird instead of marvin and dennis johnson instead of bibby. heh heh