Hawks fans: The view on Coach Drew

Well, after 41 games played, the Hawks sit with a record of 26 wins and 15 losses at the literal halfway point in the season. Is this where we should expect them to be? Are they further along than last season, or behind it? On pace to win 52 games if they can match the results of the first half, the Hawks would seem to have not lost much ground. However, two major factors could stand in Atlanta’s way of once again winning a top 3 or top 4 seed to the playoffs: a tougher second half schedule, and the Chicago Bulls.

In the meantime, how is Head Coach Larry Drew looking? At the suggestion of Hawks fan and blogger Astro Joe, we’ll review some major topics involving the “new” sideline prowler. I would post Astro Joe’s thoughts on the situation at the time of his excellent suggestion (which was weeks ago), but he may have taken a different view on some subjects by now. At any rate, here is some of what he (and I’m sure many of us) thought we should review on Larry Drew:

1) The offense. Clearly, things are different for the team from this aspect. Well, that is to say that they have the potential to be different. Two things have been constant for  Atlanta the last couple of years. One, they knew they could win by sharing the ball, and often win big. Two, they have relied on the work of two go-to scorers in the backcourt when other things weren’t working, or when things got tough. In other words, the ball movement of Drew’s offense makes this team better when they choose to execute it consistently. Truthfully, the ball and player movement is better. But neither is as consistent as it should be. Is this an issue with the guys wearing the jerseys, as it was last season? Does it fit a team that boasts two of the most talented offensive backcourt players? Has Drew truly improved the offense, or does more credit go to the growth of guys like Al Horford? How has this new offense fared in the tougher, tighter games? Last season, the Hawks scored 101.7 ppg on 46.8% shooting. This season? 98.1 ppg on 46.9% shooting.

2) The defense. Larry Drew said he would hold everybody accountable on defense, and he’s more or less been true to his word. That is to say, Drew has the Hawks playing man-to-man defense, rather than switching all the time. What of the results? The Hawks are allowing 95.3 ppg and 45.3% on field goals for opponents. Last season, the Hawks allowed 97 ppg on 46% shooting. However, it seems more like the Hawks are trying to outscore opponents more than they are trying to stop them. But, as some of you have already noted, this may be the best path for a team that isn’t built for great team defense. Also, the Hawks are rebounding slightly less than last season. Is Drew truly holding the Hawks accountable on defense? The last game (a loss to the Rockets) demonstrated some unfavorable defensive results, as well as more of the same observations. How about what Coach Drew thought about it? Well, it’s a bit interesting. At the same time, we’ve seen better defensive efforts out of Mike Bibby and Jamal Crawford than we’ve ever seen out of them in a Hawks uniform. Is it enough? What about team defense overall?

3) Developing the youngsters. Where does second year guard Jeff Teague truly stand? In the beginning, Larry Drew proclaimed that he wanted Jeff Teague to compete for the starting job. Teague didn’t even look the part, to be honest. After probably 30 games, it seemed that the kid finally came out of his shell, showing himself to be more aggressive on both ends of the court in most games where he got any real playing time. However, he still isn’t even a part of the rotation. Is he simply not good enough? I’d argue that the answer is “yes” in the beginning of the season. But now? Well, it seems that Drew is seeing things precisely the way his predecessor saw them: it’s more productive from an offensive standpoint to bring Crawford off the bench as THE backup guard. Is Drew still committed to Teague’s development, or is the young point man simply caught up in a situation where Crawford’s recent offensive output is just too much to ignore?

What about Jordan Crawford? With Joe Johnson back in his groove, and Crawford playing like he’ll get the Sixth Man award a second straight year, the rookie shooting guard doesn’t look to have much of a chance at playing more than 2-3 mpg. Maybe Drew can’t be blamed here, seeing as how the Hawks have trouble finishing a game off early these days. But back to Teague – is it situational, or is the head coach simply not keeping his word?

4) Josh will play more in the paint, Horford more at the 4. This is sort of like the promises a presidential candidate makes during his/her campaign. Drew said he would get Josh off the perimeter, and more into the paint. He also said he would play Al Horford more at the power forward position. The latter? Check. The former? Well, um…..

The situation with Josh Smith continues to be a bit of a roller coaster. From a positive perspective, Smith has finally developed an actual jump shot, and is shooting respectably from three point range. From a negative perspective, his field goal percentage is down from last season’s 50.5% to 46.6%. What about all the shots in between the paint and the three point arc? This is where much of the trouble is, as Smith doesn’t hit enough of those to justify his shot selection. If you want more details into this one specific aspect of Hawks basketball, read the blog after every game and look for Hawks fan/blogger Niremetal’s “Josh’s jumpers update.” Yes, we do some interesting things around here.

Either way, Josh hasn’t gotten into the paint more than usual. Perhaps the most likely indication is his free throw attempts. Smith is on pace to have fewer of those this season than he did last season. Suffice it to say that he doesn’t get fouled much on jumpshot attempts. Is this typical stubborn Josh, or is it a result of Drew’s offense? Either way, the promise isn’t being delivered on.

5) Lineups and use of the bench. Larry Drew has made his mark with the way he uses this roster, if nothing else. Marvin Williams’ absence due to injury is possibly all that keeps Drew from revealing whether or not he’ll go with a different starting lineup from here on out, than in year’s past. Interstingly enough, it may be Marvin Williams who finds himself a starter no longer, and a super sub (we hope, if that be the case) instead. Drew helped motivate Jason Collins into better physical condition, then rewarded his hard work and savvy with 14 game starts, mostly against teams with bigger centers. The results have largely been favorable, as that Hawks lineup has proven statistically to be the most effective lineup overall in many situations. Oddly enough, most guys are playing the same minutes they played last season, with some notable exceptions. Joe Johnson is down to a more manageable 36 mpg, while Mike Bibby is up to 31 mpg (27.4 last season). The difference? More guys playing double figure minutes when they do get into games. Last season, 9 guys played double figure minutes, with a tenth averaging just under 10 mpg. This season, there are 11 Hawks playing in double figure minutes, with a twelfth averaging just under 10 mpg. The rotation itself is largely the same.

Yet, another major difference is where guys are playing. While Al Horford enjoys more time at his more natural position of power forward (don’t argue with me, he says it and the coach says it), Joe Johnson has played more small forward, and Mo Evans has played more shooting guard.

 

So there you have it. How would you grade Head Coach Larry Drew so far this season? You can grade him according to the above categories, but don’t stop there. Come up with your own categories and grades as well.

HAWKS VS. KINGS

Last Meeting: The Hawks needed a heavy dose of Joe Johnson and Jamal Crawford to close out a somewhat tight win over the Kings. The frontcourt struggled all night. But that was in Sacramento. Will the frontcourt guys get their act together and supplement the red hot Johnson and Crawford back home in the Highlight Factory?

195 comments Add your comment

It WAS a BAD PICK

January 17th, 2011
4:36 pm

Six years later, Hawks still searching for their point guard

Posted Jan 14 2011 9:36AM

Most nights, he sits on the bench in big moments, chin resting on palm, waiting and wondering for his time to come. If it ever does.

He is Jeff Teague, backup point guard for the Hawks, and the latest attempt by the Hawks to erase their greatest sin.

You heard the old saying how a bad Draft decision can set you back a number of years? Well, for the Hawks, it’s up to six.

Six years.

That’s how long the Hawks have tried to find a quality point guard, ever since they studied the Draft board in 2005 and determined it wasn’t worth wasting their first-round pick on Chris Paul, Deron Williams or even Raymond Felton.

Six years.

That’s how long the Hawks have tried to make up for that terrible oversight, and unless Teague takes the next step, it will remain a curse.

Let’s be fair: It’s not like the Hawks have been sweeping the basement in the East. They’ve improved record-wise every season since that 2005 Draft and made the playoffs the last three. Once again they’re on pace for 45-50 wins, and another postseason seems like a given. This is a good team.

Just the same, they’re not a great team. They’re not in the class of the Celtics, Heat, Magic and Bulls, and they possibly missed out on greatness because of that Draft. Their haste to turn a wrong into a right has been costly.

Check out the falling dominoes on this trail:

They used the No. 2 pick in 2005 on Marvin Williams, a workout wizard in the weeks leading up to the Draft, because Billy Knight, then the general manager, thought Paul was too small. And evidently, Marvin was a better Williams than Deron.

Don’t forget that the Hawks, at the time, badly needed a point guard. That’s why this decision, even then, was whack. They suffered through Kenny Anderson, Tyronn Lue, Royal Ivey and Tony Delk in 2004-05. To rationalize the Paul and Deron snub, they spent a high 2005 second-rounder on Salim Stoudamire.

He lasted three years as a bench player and is now out of the league. A bust.

In the summer of 2006, they gave a big free-agent contract to Speedy Claxton. He started 31 games in his entire Hawks’ tenure. A bust, too.

In the 2007 Draft, still looking for a point guard, they used the 11th pick on Acie Law, passing on Nick Young, Jared Dudley and Wilson Chandler, among others. He stayed two years. Also, a bust.

Then the summer of 2008, they traded a handful of players, including 2006 Draft bust Shelden Williams (the No. 5 pick; Rajon Rondo went 21st) for Mike Bibby, who came with 11 years of tread and was beyond his prime, though still productive.

The Hawks figured Bibby would hold the position for only a few years, but were forced to give him a three-year, $18 million extension the next summer because Law didn’t last and there was no heir apparent.

Finally, in 2009, they drafted Teague with the No. 19 pick. And for the second straight year, Teague is backing up Bibby, now the NBA’s fourth-oldest starting point guard.

So here’s the tally: two No. 1 picks and a high No. 2 spent on point guards, plus a pricey free agent in Claxton, plus Bibby, all were brought in to make up for 2005. Also, the Hawks gave Marvin Williams, the guy taken instead of Deron Williams and Paul, a five-year, $40 million contract extension two summers ago. And Marvin Williams, an underachiever, hasn’t nearly approached the All-Star level of those point guards.

All told, the Hawks have burned through roughly $90 million on rookie point guard contracts, Bibby, Marvin Williams (his rookie contract plus the extension) and Claxton, all because they didn’t take Paul or Deron Williams. That’s a steep financial price for a franchise that must keep costs reasonable.

And guess what? They still lack a strong presence at point guard. Their search continues.

There is a small bright side.

In a bit of irony, Hawks GM Rick Sund dumped both Claxton and Law on the Warriors in the summer of 2009 to get Jamal Crawford, last year’s Sixth Man of the Year winner.

But the point guard mistake of 2005 continues to ripple for a team that uses Joe Johnson for much of the ballhandling chores. Too often, Johnson chews up the shot clock trying to isolate, something that wouldn’t be necessary with a playmaking point guard.

Passing on two franchise point guards isn’t exactly the same as Portland skipping Michael Jordan for Sam Bowie in 1984. But when spring arrives and if the Hawks are a No. 5-seed, as expected, it will look like something you could see coming. Six years ago.

Big Ray

January 17th, 2011
4:39 pm

Horford looking good early on…

The team defense? Not…

doc

January 17th, 2011
4:45 pm

32 points given up in the first quarter to the kings. man, i am glad to see adjustments have been made.

Astro Joe

January 17th, 2011
5:25 pm

Ray, I will share my thoughts on your blog later. Still tripping out on the Hawks allowing 60+ points to the Sactown Kings after the Houston performance. Let’s see if this will be another game where they win because of a single quarter of stellar defense against a lesser team.

[...] Hawks fans: The view on Coach Drew – Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) Hawks fans: The view on Coach DrewAtlanta Journal Constitution (blog)Marvin Williams' absence due to injury is possibly all that keeps Drew from revealing whether or not he'll go with a different starting lineup from here on …and more » Jan 17, 2011 2:44pm [...]

[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Eva Miranda. Eva Miranda said: Hawks fans: The view on Coach Drew: Interstingly enough, it may be Marvin Williams who finds himself a starter n… http://bit.ly/hRAIqQ [...]

JD

January 17th, 2011
5:41 pm

Familiarity breeds contempt, and its coming home to roost right about now. The Hawks haven’t shown any intent that they’re fundamentally a better team this season despite the fact that there are far fewer ISO-JOE’s now than last year.

If, as a Coach, you can’t get them to respond to a team in your home court that’s only won 9 games this season, there’s a problem. I’m just saying, same ol’ same ol’ from the Atlanta Spirit.

niremetal

January 17th, 2011
5:50 pm

1) Why did Collins start tonight? Horford is better-equipped to handle Cousins.
2) Tonight is a stark reminder that when Jamal isn’t scoring, he’s utterly useless.
3) With Marvin out, I guess Josh decided to take over his role of “player who you forget is on the floor until he screws up.”

doc

January 17th, 2011
5:52 pm

cant wait to hear what bibby and josh blow if they lose this game.

well, i guess we got em right where we want them, the heat that is, thinking we are soft and all, only to come down and rip their throats out.

doc

January 17th, 2011
6:06 pm

Enter your comments doging the proverbial bullet now?

niremetal

January 17th, 2011
6:23 pm

Few things anger me more than how little respect JJ gets from refs. He draws contact virtually every time he gets close to the basket. I’ll grant that he doesn’t do a good job of “selling it,” but refs ignore fouls on him even when they are painfully obvious.

niremetal

January 17th, 2011
6:25 pm

I like the offensive/defensive substitutions that LD pulls out in tight games now. I’ll take Mo/Damien/JJ/Josh/Al as a crunchtime defensive lineup any day.

niremetal

January 17th, 2011
6:29 pm

Speak of the devil…right after they screwed JJ out of an And-1 they allow him to get to the line on a pull-up J (albeit one where Tyreke clearly gave his arm a little push).

doc

January 17th, 2011
6:43 pm

Big Ray

January 17th, 2011
6:51 pm

Ugly. Ugly, ugly, ugly.

And that was a win .

Well, I’ll take the win.

Positives – Joe Johnson blowing up on offense, and STILL getting his typical rebounds and assists.

Al Horford, hustling, defending, scoring. 7 blocked shots is incredible for anyone, let alone a guy who doesn’t block a lot of shots.

Negatives –

Team defense.

Jump shot insanity.

Rebounding.

Team hustle.

The bench.

Big Ray

January 17th, 2011
6:55 pm

3) With Marvin out, I guess Josh decided to take over his role of “player who you forget is on the floor until he screws up.”

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Wait a minute. That ain’t funny!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Big Ray

January 17th, 2011
6:55 pm

Astro Joe ,

Your prediction skills are gaining in power….you called the 4th quarter ….

Big Ray

January 17th, 2011
6:56 pm

I’ll tell you just how bad the defense was. We forced a team that has only won 9 of 39 games into a whopping 7 turnovers.

Big Ray

January 17th, 2011
6:59 pm

We aren’t going to catch Chicago as long as Derrick Rose is healthy and Luol Deng keeps leaving up to his contract.

Ray

January 17th, 2011
8:25 pm

I’m telling ya’ll now we need to drop off Jamal Crawford after this season. Great player he’s someone you need when the offense goes sour, but at the same time.

Teague and JC 2.0 haven’t seen the much at all anymore even against the sorriest teams the NBA has to offer. These would have been great games for them to learn from, but yet they rot on the bench just like Acie Law and others before them.

You know it’s sad it seems like we’ve gotten use to having a 50 win season or a 40 win season, but yet when playoff time comes we don’t know how to compete that’s how useless talking about a 35-50 win season really means.

If you look at the past 2 seasons teams that got to the finals knew how to compete to reach it. Boston was a 4th seed yet the blew right by everyone else Orlando was the same way. Atlanta they look at a 53 winning record like it means something all it means is where you’re placed in the Playoffs that’s it ask the NBA Legends they might tell you the same thing.

That’s it from me I’m just tired of this something has got to give.

Astro Joe

January 17th, 2011
8:32 pm

Big Ray, regarding your blog subject…. I’ll give a big thumbs up on the new offensive sets, which is different than appluding the offense overall. The players are still adjusting to the notion of taking the first good shot in the possession. Too often, that has resulted in long-range shots from our bigs. It must be confusing for Josh to hear that they are supposed to take the first quality shot, only to get reprimanded for taking an open jumper early in the shot clock. Hopefully in time, they will work through the nuances of the offensive scheme. That is why I have a mixed review for the offense.

The defensive effort remains problematic. My sense is that the opponent’s scoring is down because instead of banging the offensive boards, we’re retreating to improve the transition defense. But I don’t think that our half-court defense is any better.
In terms of defensive accountability? Give me a break. We’ve watched players get benched because of poor offensive decision making but I have personally missed any benching related to defense.

Kudos to LD’s willingness to try different combinations. At the same time, injuries have forced his hand in some ways, with Joe, Marvin and Jamal all missing several games. But he clearly has a disposition to tinker and that is fun for fans.

His development of young players doesn’t seem better than the previous coach. As previously stated, guys have missed time and yet, Teague doesn;t seem much better than last year and JC2 is an after-thought. There was a time when Jamal was hurting, Evans was rehabbing and JC2 was still buried on the bench. Also, after JC2 showed flashes of having some PG instincts in the pre-season, LD came out and pretty much declared that he would not be getting PG minutes.

Overall, I’d probably give him a B- for the first=half. I still give the hiring of LD a big ‘ole D, but for what LD can control, I’ll give him a B-. The ongoing defensive lapses coupled with an absence of the defensive accountability that he discussed gives him room for improvement.

Astro Joe

January 17th, 2011
8:58 pm

Joe has to be the leading candidate for Eastern Conference player of the month. Check out what he has done in January.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=1007

Harrison

January 17th, 2011
8:59 pm

It feels like we’re a team that is preparing to slip back into 9 win seasons. All our guys are decent but not great, and most of them are old, past their prime. We need a serious franchise changing event to have a chance in the playoffs.The Hawks right now just look tired and done.

niremetal

January 17th, 2011
9:19 pm

niremetal

January 17th, 2011
9:30 pm

After tonight, JJ’s averages stand at 19.7ppg (.433 FG%), 5.4apg (to just 1.8 TO/g), and 4.1 rpg. The prediction from Hollinger (if memory serves) that the cuts in ISO plays would drive up JJ’s turnover rate hasn’t exactly been proven true. And, as AJ points out, his January stats are even better – 28.9ppg (.524 FG%), .421 3P%, .850 FT%, 4.1apg, 3.9rpg. That’s monster.

Josh’s jumpers watch update:

vs. Tor: 1-6 (0-3 on 3s)
vs. Hou: 1-8 (0-2 on 3s)
vs. Sac: 3-7 (2-3 on 3s)

Total: 5-21 (2-8 on 3s)
FG%: .238
eFG%: .286
eFG% vs. season avg: -.163
vs. ’09-’10 avg: +.001

niremetal

January 17th, 2011
9:33 pm

Other notes for tonight:

1) Josh musta heard me when I made that crack about him and Marvin in the 3rd quarter.
2) Remember when I said I’d trade the whole roster for Blake Griffin? Yeah, I still would.

O'Brien

January 17th, 2011
10:20 pm

I’m happy for the win, but I did not like the minutes distribution, especially on the first night of a back to back with Miami tomorrow night.

4 starters played over 40 minutes. That reminded me of Woody.

And we gave up 17 offensive rebounds? That will contribute to our undoing in the playoffs.

And I’m with AJ. I havent seen much accountability when it comes to defense. Jamal and Bibby consistently get major minutes regardless of their defensive performance.

O'Brien

January 17th, 2011
10:22 pm

O'Brien

January 17th, 2011
10:22 pm

LD calls his players soft, and talks about the Hawks reputation around the league. havent we been hearing this the previous 2 years as well?

We changed coaches, but we havent changed players, and players havent changed their mindset.

O'Brien

January 17th, 2011
10:24 pm

Hawks have been called soft under Woody as well. So clearly, a new coach isnt enough to change the culture.

AJ,

I didnt know you were psychic too? Let’s see if this will be another game where they win because of a single quarter of stellar defense against a lesser team..

JSS

January 17th, 2011
11:55 pm

@ Niremetal…
niremetal
January 17th, 2011
10:39 pm
‘Sportswriter’ Schultz looking to make it seem like he watches more than 3 Hawks games per year”

Jeff Schultz
January 17th, 2011
11:10 pm
Niremetal — Four, actually. (Seriously?)

You wear those two out!

Ed

January 18th, 2011
1:50 am

Good work Ray. LD has handled the bench very haphazardly by not having a regular rotation of minutes for a group of 8-9 players. From game to game you never know who’s going to play off the bench exceprt for JC. He also hasn’t diligently attemtped to develop Teague and doesn’t reward him when he plays well. But for all the players there’s been no regularity to the overall minutes played.Tonight’s game is a good example Against the Sacramento Kings we play four of our starters 40+ minutes with JC getting the only meaningfurl minutes off the bench. This is coaching scared just as Woody so often did. You’ve got to have confidence in your entire team…playing bascially a six-man rotation (especially against one of the worst teams in the league) is not going to get it done.

Also, this doesn’t project to be a 52 win seasib if you check how many teams the Hawks have played with losing records. In the second half they will have to step it up if they want to equal their 26-15 first half record as they will see far more quality teams.

vava74

January 18th, 2011
3:21 am

Howard -Shaq (head to head):

  D. Howard C min43:08 fg10-19 ft13-18 (+-) -6 oreb5 13reb ass3 to3 stl1 blk0 ba4 pf1 33 pts

  S. O’Neal C 25:39 fg5-7 ft2-2 (+-) +4 oreb0 2reb ass0 to2 stl1 blk2 ba0 pf5 12 pts

Big Ray

January 18th, 2011
6:39 am

“We can’t come out every night and expect Joe or even hope that Joe can bail us out when we’re not playing well,” Drew said. “I don’t want to be that kind of team.”

Which is why we still have Jamal Crawford, and won’t likely trade him. Sorry, Larry. But after 6 years on the sideline, you should know – you ARE that team.

Big Ray

January 18th, 2011
6:44 am

This isn’t a knock on Larry Drew.

But let me tell ya….with every quote he reminds me more and more of a girl looking to date a guy known for breaking girls’ hearts. She sees the guy do his thing to one girl after another, always the same. Acts like he’s going to do well, says all the right things, but in the end, he ends up breaking the chick’s heart. And what does this new girl think, after seeing all of this? She thinks, “Yes, he’s bad, but I’ll be the one to change him. I really think I can change him and make him something better.”

Sorry, Larry. It ain’t your fault, but in this story, you’re the new girl.

Ray

January 18th, 2011
7:09 am

@ Big Ray

Yeah quotes like those make me cringe cause it really does look like LD is playing scared.

For me this part of the season is make or break time. This is when we see if the Atlanta Hawks have any heart or grit. If they want anymore of my respect I say the rest of the way play with a chip on your shoulder.

Astro Joe

January 18th, 2011
7:11 am

Big Ray gets the 2011 Analogy of the Year Award. At least as of 1/18. :lol:

doc

January 18th, 2011
8:54 am

i think what is frustrating is knowing two years ago this was a pretty good defensive team not afraid to win a game scoring only 90 points if they exerted their will on the other team. that is gone from this team. it has to come back along with a lot more respect of the clock and finding open shots at the right time in the clock to win games not open shots. it takes work on both ends of the floor and i dont see that desire to do so for extended periods of time.

just the same i cant get frustrated now because i knew this was coming as well as many here that enough was not done during the off season to have an impact to change the culture. i am not saying it cant come but it will be slow and maybe slower than organic growth, which means we miss a window of opportunity. the last thought is what irks me the most and what i continue to hold the management to do, sund and above.

the time is always now in the nba. it is a misnomer and false expectation that you build for the future. take risk but do something when it is very plain to see there are holes in the fabric. these guys are like the emperor with no clothes; they surround themselves with sycophants who follow their orders not show the way since they dont really know it. this isnt a business of building communications towers, restaurants or law which is what they built their names on. when they get people that are the best at what they do in the nba then things will change. the best example is what TT is doing in chicago building on defense first. we may not even have had the perspicacity to examine him closely with an interview, unless he refused to be heard.

anyway, go down and upset the heat who has the three toads hurting a bit now and all will be forgiven.

doc

January 18th, 2011
8:56 am

big ray blog monster just bit hard.

vava74

January 18th, 2011
9:07 am

This team is soft because we have Jamal on the floor for 30 minutes a game and that guy is incapable of playing D consistently.

Remove Jamal from the equation and the team will play differently.

If I am not wrong, 2 years ago we were gritty on D with just about the same guys we have now MINUS Jamal.

Astro Joe

January 18th, 2011
9:50 am

vava, Flip Murray embodies the term “gritty player” and he costs less than $2M/year. Anyone remember that summer article about Powell and Etan bringing “physicality” to the Hawks? Well, how’s that working out?

vava74

January 18th, 2011
9:56 am

Powell was nurturing a bad knee since the beginning of the season so my take is that he was playing softer than he really is due to that.

I am not saying that he can now bring the “physicality” you talk about, but I think that 4 rebounds in 4.44 of play indicate that his bounce is back and that he could be able to contribute more.

Specially in light of the aversion to rebounding we were seeing last night.

Does the ball cause some sort of rash to these guys when it’s coming off the rim?

O'Brien

January 18th, 2011
10:05 am

@ Big Ray,

The new girl’s daddy (Rick) gave her his blessing.

@ Ed,

It’s bad enough playing 4 starters over 40 minutes, but it’s also the first game of a back to back. Hopefully guys will have the energy tonight.

@ Vava,

Jamal might be the biggest part of the problem on D, but all the other guys are part of the problem too. Bibby we know about, but sometimes the other players appear to be more concerned with scoring, than they are playing defense.

We need our starters to play with Mario and Damien’s effort on D more consistently, but they are very inconsistent from game to game, play to play.

steve brown

January 18th, 2011
10:33 am

Very tired of the knock on Jamal’s D. The Hawks have only 2 players that are good defensively, Joe Johnson and Al Horford. When Wilkins (our D specialist) was inserted late last night for defensive purposes and his man faked him out of his jock strap for a game tying layup I had a good belly laugh. At least Jamal can score in clutch situations-there is a very short list of Hawks capable of that. Like Big Ray this team is boring me and for the right pieces trade whoever you want.

As for the coach I must say he has been able to keep pace with last years team while inserting his own philosophy and dealing with the problems Josh potentially brings nightly and Jamal’s lack of a contract extension. At the halfway mark I give Coach high grades, I would love to grade the GM but no one has seen him or heard him in ages so for now he gets a failure to show up.

doc

January 18th, 2011
10:34 am

i see marvin is still showing up for something, speeches at mid-court. wish he would steal the spotlight a little more for what he is getting paid for and what fans really want to see or talk about. maybe he has a future in politics or front office work when his playing days are done.

Astro Joe

January 18th, 2011
11:00 am

steve brown, our GM seemingly works on a part-time basis. He tends to do his work from about mid-June until about mid-August, then he is mostly on retainer to consult as needed (like the Damien signing this year and the team-changing Mario signing last year). The funny thing is that BK took a lot of criticism with his handling of the media and while Sund is better when he talks, he probably spends less time with the media than BK. From a strictly marketing perspective, this team is AWFUL… there aren’t any personalities amongst the players or management that engage the local market.

Astro Joe

January 18th, 2011
11:17 am

In the Atlanta area, we routinely hear from Dmitroff (Falcons GM) and Frank Wren (Braves GM) during their respective seasons. Heck, I may have heard more Wren interviews during the basketball season than I’ve heard Sund interviews. Guys like Chipper, McCain, Tim Hudson and Smoltz/Glavine (now and before they retired) are constantly featured in local media 12 months a year. The Hawks act like they don’t have a responsibility to “sell their product” off the court. As a huge Hawks fan, I would love to see more Hawks gear worn around the city and more Hawks talk in the local media. It is very, very frustrating to see such disregard for growing the fan base.

doc

January 18th, 2011
11:21 am

steve thank you for bringing perspective rather than personal bias. not too many players show up to play defense on this team every trip up and down the court which is what defense is. it is not in their mentality to do so. the blog monster grabbed a post earlier today where i suggested they were a better defensive team two years ago. they should have only gotten better instead of worse playing together as a core as defense is more team really than offense. it is sad and folks continue to only see the tree instead of the forrest in this case.

doc

January 18th, 2011
11:28 am

marketing? hawks? fan interaction? ROFL

ENTITLEMENT TO HAVING FANS = NBA ATLANTA FRANCHISE

niremetal

January 18th, 2011
11:48 am

Astro Joe,

Fans didn’t give a $h!t when we had a championship-caliber team and one of the game’s most exciting players (Nique). Despite anecdotes about how rockin the Omni was then, the Hawks never cracked the top third of in the NBA in attendance and have consistently ranked far lower in attendance than they have in the standings. I don’t blame the fans for that. I blame the fact that most Atlantans were born elsewhere. But it’s hard to grow a fan base when the city doesn’t care about the local NBA team. And no matter how people try to sugarcoat it, that’s the case in Atlanta.

Astro Joe

January 18th, 2011
11:59 am

nire, a business that gives up on growing it’s market share will likely never grow it’s market share. If the ASG are doing nothing because of what happened 20 years ago, then why did they purchase this team? Where is the vision to do better? This city watched a previous Falcons ownership that operating on the cheap (they didn’t even bother to offer Deion Sanders a contract extension), Arthur Blank didn’t assume that he couldn’t do better, he had the audacity to believe that he could take a lump of coal and transform it into a great NFL franchise (he’s not there yet but he is well on his way). Sorry, but I won’t excuse a lack of marketing due to the demographic nature of this city. That’s an easy out and one that I sincerely hope our ownership is not taking.

Elite Vince

January 18th, 2011
12:22 pm

I like what Larry Drew has done with different line up starting and situational. One line up i would like to see is the hot guys on the floor and the best defensive also. Joe Johnson,and Jamal Crawford for offense. Josh Smith, Al Horford, and a third guy playing center. We would have two great ISO guys that could create there own shots and three bigs that can guard the goal.

vava74

January 18th, 2011
12:24 pm

steve brown,

Jamal’s “clutchness” is vastly overrated as is his real importance to this team’s success.

Check http://www.82games.com for last year’s clutch stats on Jamal and prepare yourself for a reality check.

Apart from the shot against Phoenix Jamal shot horribly in the clutch.

Also, weren’t you the one saying that Jamal was our MVP? What about this past 2 games in which we lost one and nearly lost another against sub-par competition?

Do you have NBA leaguepass? If so, just check out the closing moments of the first quarter against the Kings (when he had finally erased a deficit) and see how Udrih got 5 of his 7 points in 3 possession in a row. Udrih, for crying out loud, not Paul or Rose, Udrih!

A bad apple (not from a personality point of view) ruins a whole basket of good apples (the problem worsens when we already have a so so apple in Smoove).

Jamal’s presence on court generates the wrong vibe and unless he is smoking (shooting above .500) his presence on court must be controlled to the max.

steve brown

January 18th, 2011
1:49 pm

VAVA74-I went to the stat site you recommended and Jamal’s numbers looked good to me but I will admit it was a bit complex for my old school mind. I guess I will just have to take your word for it. I will say that if you asked me in whose hands I want the ball during crunch time it would be 1A-Joe Johnson, 1B-Jamal, and 2-Al Horford. But I only come to this conclusion from observation.

doc

January 18th, 2011
2:29 pm

borrowed from the other blog …. nire might salivate on these remarks …..

rod asks; show me a scouting report on marvin positive to paraphrase and steve w responds …

SteveW
January 18th, 2011
12:59 pm

Rod, this is from SBNation January 15th of this year talking about Marvin.”His absence removes arguably Atlanta’s best perimeter defender from the lineup.” This was written by Kris Willis, who also writes for Peachtree Hoops.

This is from Tom Ziller on Hoopinion in 2009, “He’s a stellar defender at the small forward spot, agile and looooong.” Speaking of Marvin

This from Backseat GM Feb. of 2010, The Title of the Article is “The Most Overlooked Perimeter Defenders” It says, “Marvin Williams – A 6-9 SF should be a good perimeter defender, but it took Marvin Williams a couple seasons to harness his athletic ability into becoming a good defender, but many people haven’t noticed it yet. In the past year, the Hawks have held their opponents to 7.4 less points per game while he has been on the court, one of the highest numbers in the NBA according to basketballvalue.com. While Williams does lack the strength to guard PFs, he has the speed and strength necessary to bother even the stronger SFs in the NBA. He is doubly more valuable to the Hawks because they do not have other perimeter defenders of William’s caliber and often are trying to make up for Mike Bibby’s defensive shortcomings.”

Rod, I know you like Josh Smith, but you don’t have to run Marvin down to like Josh. It’s not a contest, they’re both on the same team. Marvin is shooting better than ever this season at 48.8%. Chill dude. Don’t you remember before Al, Bibby, and Jamal got here, Marvin was a legit scoring threat.

For April of ‘07 in 9 games Marvin averaged 16.8 ppg and 6.2 rpg
November of ‘07 15.4 and 6.1 in 15 games
December of ‘ 07 18.1 and 5.2 in 13 games including 4 consecutive 20 pt. games in a row
January of ‘08 16.7 and 6.2 including a 33 point game on the road in Seattle.

But then we got scorers in, and Marvin had to change his game, which he did graciously, to help the team win.

Remember Marvin’s 26 at Boston earlier this season, when Josh scored 1?

Marvin is an ok player for what he is. He’s still only 24. He makes 5 mill. less than Josh per year. Let’s just see the Hawks win!

niremetal

January 18th, 2011
3:38 pm

AJ,

To the extent that Atlanta does care about sports, it cares about college sports first. And to the extent it cares about sports generally, it cares about football and baseball before basketball. That being said, the Falcons’ and Braves’ attendance has nearly always been lower than their ranking in the standings – just not to the same degree as the Hawks’. Ted Turner and Arthur Blank, so often hailed as saviors, were unable to reverse those trends. The Falcons were 15th in attendance this year despite having the league’s second best record. Last year, it was T-11th/17th. The year before it was T-6th/23rd.

The only significant blip during the Falcons’ existence was that in 3 out of the 5 years that Vick was the pre-season projected starter, the Falcons’ attendance rank exceeding their rank in the standings. When Vick went, so did attendance. Now the crappy superstar-driven Atlanta pro sports fanbase has been re-exposed for what it is.

To be blunt, this is an issue where fans who blame the owners are just being foolish. Atlanta’s uniquely poor characteristics as a sports market is well-documented. I know that won’t stop you and doc from blaming the owners, though. It’s what you do.

As for why ASG bought the team, simple: Going concern value and prospects for future growth. Atlanta has been one of the fastest-growing metro areas in the country for decades. The running assumption is that trend will continue (or at least that was the assumption before the recession). Even though Atlanta’s teams have lost money on an operating basis, they have always been able to maintain confidence that future revenue growth will eventually put the team in the black. In the meantime, the team’s going concern value will remain high and rising, which will allow them to resell the team for more than they paid to buy it (while providing themselves with a nice tax write-off in the interim since the team is structured as an LLC). Many businesses, especially in the sports and entertainment industries (although tech is the most famous example), lose money but still keep increasing in value because of projected future revenues.

Astro Joe

January 18th, 2011
4:24 pm

nire, I was speaking about marketing the team, specifically doing more interviews with players and GMs and coaching staff. That costs nothing but an iuvestment of making it a priority. Again, if you declare defeat before fighting, then you are sure to lose. I’m asking for effort. If Arthur Triche called the 2 sports stations and asked for a 5 minute weekly interview with a designated Hawk/Hawk official, how much would that cost? There is a cable access channel that does a lot of local sports, I bet they would love to have some Hawks programming and would likely pay the Hawks to produce something. If the players took the attitude of “well the other team has a much higher payroll so what’s the point” we would not settle for that losing attitude. I’m not asking the ASG to buy every billboard in the city, just take advantage of essentially free media. Again, that just requires an investment in time and making it a priority. Making the effort to grow the fan base does not require millions, just effort. This city is full of bandwagon jumpers… we just need the ASG to let more folk know about the wagon.

O'Brien

January 18th, 2011
5:23 pm

AJ,

Agreed. Some athletes or coaches (even if its in other sports)have slots on radio shows where they call in (sometimes weekly), even if its only for a few minutes.

niremetal

January 18th, 2011
5:23 pm

AJ,

Since I’m a few hundred miles away, I can’t speak to how much marketing ASG does in the region. I also frankly don’t know much about the effectiveness of different kinds of marketing. I do know that back in the day when I did see Hawks billboards along 285, attendance still sucked. And back when it seemed like SportSouth and 680 had seemingly endless Braves coverage and reported Bobby Cox’s every fart, the Braves were failing to sell out playoff games.

It might be that past experience has shown little sign that the types of marketing you expect to see works for the Hawks (and/or other similarly situated teams). The mere fact that certain types of advertising isn’t done doesn’t mean that the decision not to engage in such marketing wasn’t a good one.

Astro Joe

January 18th, 2011
7:46 pm

nire, this is a new age. An age of internet, social media, etc. The traditional marketing plans are giving way to all kind of creative (and inexpensive) ways to sell your product. But it all starts by having a desire to “get the message out”. I just read where John Elway is expanding the use of Twitter to engage fans in ways that no other NFL team has done. Too many examples from too many sports franchises. And it all starts with someone thinking to themselves, “I need to sell my product better tomorrow than we did yesterday”. The one thing that all of these media outlets desire is content… all the Hawks have to do is make a player or management figure available to stick a mic in his face and that’s it. Think of all of the blogs that cover our “not all that popular” Hawks (relative to other sports franchises). You’re telling me that those bloggers wouldn’t carry a goodly message if they were provided some occassional access? Sorry, I’m simply not convinced that because marketing campaign X didn’t work in 2008 (as an example) that marketing plan Y can’t work in 2011. The media is expanding far too rapidly to throw in the towel like that.

Astro Joe

January 18th, 2011
7:54 pm

Imagine if Big Ray could speak to Jeff Teague once every two weeks or so… wouldn’t that be gold?

“Hey Jeff, why aren’t you playing, dog?”
“Dog, what’s a dog?”
“Oh, never mind.”

O'Brien

January 18th, 2011
8:44 pm

Hawks and JJ started off good. but wow, what a second quarter struggle for the Hawks and JJ. JJ’s indecisiveness and some Iso JJ hurt us in the quarter.

After being up by 13 early, We need to win this game tonight.

niremetal

January 18th, 2011
8:48 pm

Think of all of the blogs that cover our “not all that popular” Hawks (relative to other sports franchises). You’re telling me that those bloggers wouldn’t carry a goodly message if they were provided some occassional access?

AJ, the size of the Hawks’ blog community is absolutely PATHETIC compared to those of other NBA teams. Terrible example.

lukas

January 18th, 2011
8:53 pm

Excellent half by the Hawks!!
It’s a thing of beauty to see JJ running and missing so many iso plays until the lead is gone. It’s a thing of beauty to see how our PG, in a 4 against 2 fast break and with Josh running, pass to JJ to take another 3. It’s so delightful to see Al neglected for an entire quarter. LD: i love your offense!!!

niremetal

January 18th, 2011
8:56 pm

Sorry, I’m simply not convinced that because marketing campaign X didn’t work in 2008 (as an example) that marketing plan Y can’t work in 2011. The media is expanding far too rapidly to throw in the towel like that.

I never said anything to the contrary. Strawman.

This is a classic AJ bait-and-switch. Your initial post criticized the Hawks’ failure to use “local media” in the way that the Braves do. You said absolutely, positively nothing about the Hawks’ failure to use the newer types of online media. Nothing you said in your prior posts could even be construed as a criticism of the Hawks’ use of online media. You talked about interviews and other appearances in “local media.” Now you’re talking about the Hawks’ failure to use online media. Like I said, classic AJ bait-and-switch. Change the subject and hope no one notices.

The media is expanding far too rapidly to throw in the towel like that.

I never said anything to contrary. Another AJ strawman.

Are we calling off our truce, AJ?

niremetal

January 18th, 2011
8:59 pm

Basically, I neither conceded that the Hawks were “failing to use marketing plan Y” or were “throw[ing] in the towel,” nor did I say anything to the contrary on either point. Wow. That was pathetic even by AJ standards.

lukas

January 18th, 2011
9:12 pm

Nique explained that JJ doesn’t get to the line as much as Dwyane Wade because JJ is “so quick.”

Big Ray

January 18th, 2011
9:17 pm

AJ ,

I think I was channeling you when the analogy struck…. :lol: Glad you liked it, but sad that it’s so accurate.

Doc ,

Post rescued.

Well, a defensive (or offensive?) struggle, I see. Both teams shooting down in the 30s percentile wise.

Not surprised to see Wade and LeQueen play tonight.

Big Ray

January 18th, 2011
9:23 pm

Niremetal ,

Ok, we got the part about AJ being wrong, sneaky, low-down, dirty, a scurvy knave (can you still get scurvy?) and otherwise the scum of blog society….

But what is your opinion about what the Hawks could do better from a marketing standpoint? Or do you feel that there is nothing that can be done because there is a large number of imported personnel in the Atlanta Metro area, thereby increasing the fan suckage that is and has been statistically obvious since whenever?

O'Brien

January 18th, 2011
9:24 pm

In a big game against a big time opponent, we need JJ to do what he has been doing all month.

But instead…JJ is 6-20 tonight, including 0-6 from 3.

Big Ray

January 18th, 2011
9:25 pm

The Hawks are 1-3 from the free throw line. The Heat are 19-22.

Am I missing something? Well, we do have the lead for the moment.

Big Ray

January 18th, 2011
9:27 pm

O’brien ,

Well, he couldn’t keep it up forever. Somebody else has to step up.

Is Al Horford injured? Or is Drew playing one of his favorite games? You know, the one where he sees just how long he can go without his best frontcourt scorer and rebounder….

Astro Joe

January 18th, 2011
9:30 pm

Dude, there is no strawman here. My initial premise started with the absence of Sund in the local media and using available venues to sell their product. Then you went off on what happened 20 years ago in the Omni. I’m not playing this game with someone who lives a few hundred miles away and has no clear viewpoint on the Hawks utilization of the local media vs. other Atlanta sports franchises. This was a territory you were not suited to pursue but you decided to offer an opinion anyway. Don’t go into blog etiquette mode now that you clearly have little left to offer.

Hawks are poor at marketing their product locally. If an Atlanta resident thinks differently, I’d love to hear their informed opinion. I won’t comment on local media in Delaware or other Atlantic states, you can count on that. I understand the limits of my knowledge.

Have a blessed night. Go Hawks!

Astro Joe

January 18th, 2011
9:31 pm

Big Ray, MC tweeted that Al suffered an ankle injury.

O'Brien

January 18th, 2011
9:34 pm

Meanwhile, Josh is 4-15.

Hawks need to win this game. Too many games against big time opponents, we are close in the fourth, and then the other team makes a run, and we lose.

We need to win this game to help our confidence that we can beat these teams. We are currently 4-9 against teams over .500.

8 minutes to go, tied at 61. lets go Hawks

lukas

January 18th, 2011
9:35 pm

Horford is done for the day. Ankle.

Big Ray

January 18th, 2011
9:35 pm

AJ ,

Thanks, missed that part.

Big Ray

January 18th, 2011
9:36 pm

Dang. We needed Al. No telling if Josh will come through.

Big Ray

January 18th, 2011
9:38 pm

Oh well. Gotta go…have to be up, suited and booted in less than 7 hours.

Later…

Astro Joe

January 18th, 2011
9:39 pm

Where do we get a Joel Anthony to do the dirty work?

O'Brien

January 18th, 2011
9:44 pm

AJ,

Joel Anthony was a FA this offseason, and I guy I liked as a backup center. but he resigned with the Heat for $3+ mil.

Can we really expect JC2 to come through in this game, after sitting on the bench for weeks?

Astro Joe

January 18th, 2011
9:44 pm

Too many compromises, LD needs offense but sacrfices someone who could grab a freakin’ defensive rebound, so we get JC2 and not Zaza or Powell.

Astro Joe

January 18th, 2011
9:48 pm

Wow, sure is good to see a little aggression from the Hawks. And it was GREAT to see Josh rediscover the thunder slam after pretending he was Glenn Rice in Miami most of the game.

O'Brien

January 18th, 2011
9:49 pm

Thats the Josh we need. Not the jumper happy Josh,

But I cant believe he put in JC2 though…

niremetal

January 18th, 2011
10:24 pm

AJ,

What, are you kidding me? YOU, not me, were the one who started talking about LOCAL media. Then YOU, not me, said in a post that purportedly was a response to me that the Hawks weren’t doing enough to promote the team in “new” media. You said this:

Sorry, I’m simply not convinced that because marketing campaign X didn’t work in 2008 (as an example) that marketing plan Y can’t work in 2011. The media is expanding far too rapidly to throw in the towel like that.

How was that IN ANY WAY a response to what I said? It wasn’t. It was a strawman. You attacked an argument that I never made. I neither conceded that the Hawks were “failing to use marketing plan Y” or were “throw[ing] in the towel,” nor did I say anything about the merits of using online media, nor did I make any assessment of the Hawks’ use of online media. Nor did YOU ever before that post discuss, suggest, or hint that you were referring to online rather than traditional media. It was a subject that you never brought up and that I never addressed. That makes this statement, purportedly in response to me:

Sorry, I’m simply not convinced that because marketing campaign X didn’t work in 2008 (as an example) that marketing plan Y can’t work in 2011. The media is expanding far too rapidly to throw in the towel like that.

…a strawman.

Stop playing coy. You know that’s a strawman. I take it you’ve decided to end the truce.

niremetal

January 18th, 2011
10:26 pm

Ray,

I don’t know what the Hawks can/should do. I’m not a marketing expert. My point was that no owner of any sports team in the history of Atlanta has managed to get the city to give a damn about its teams. So any statement that blames poor attendance on marketing is inherently weak, because it assumes every owner of every sports team in Atlanta history was crappy at marketing.

niremetal

January 18th, 2011
10:40 pm

In fairness, AJ never blamed the attendance issues entirely or even mainly on poor marketing. (I know he’ll never admit it when he attacks arguments I never made, but I’ll give him the courtesy of doing so knowing full well he’ll never pay me the same courtesy). My point was that there is reason to question the utility of marketing given the historically poor Atlanta pro sports fans.

doc

January 18th, 2011
11:47 pm

all is forgiven now. told you we ad em right where we wanted them.

good win. i feel the hawks match up well with the heat when we play well just dont know for a seven game series. the bulls maybe ,the celts and the magic worry me more even if we come to lay against them.

doc

January 18th, 2011
11:57 pm

nire i saw two arguments yours and astro’s. the smith folks had the city for years and never delivered, sell outs for years with mediocrity or worse. astro points out the hawks dont even seem to try and market a very good team, that is a problem. you say it is not worth the effort because of the inherent base, he says never quit trying as blank has shown folks do come back. there have been rabid hawks fans even when the hawks were in the alexander awful for a pro game. it is time for the askg to become major league which they arent thy are remnant of smith. yes you are not at games nor live in the city so you dont know jack about the way it is now. sorry you dont and it sucks to make it fan friendly and i am trying to spend my money to be there and they just piss on fans. i even offered you tix to go to a game while here in the big a on thanksgiving so you could see it for yourself. the offer is still open. crap basketball fan experience.

Billy Knight

January 18th, 2011
11:59 pm

Despite what transpired in the past such as the mistakes i made in passing on Deron Williams and Chris Paul, they have a good young point guard in Teague, but the coach will not use him, because the coach is thinking of his contract, and feels better with Bibby.

Melvin

January 19th, 2011
12:20 am

Doc,

are you going to the Hornets game on Friday? I’m think about it. I will probably attend the Bobcats game in Charlotte on Sat as well.

niremetal

January 19th, 2011
1:29 am

he says never quit trying as blank has shown folks do come back

Except the folks did not come back. Like I said before:

The Falcons were 15th in attendance this year despite having the league’s second best record. Last year, it was T-11th/17th. The year before it was T-6th/23rd.

You want the Hawks to market themselves better? Fine. But if you are blaming poor attendance mainly on poor marketing, that’s idiotic. Because without any exception whatsoever, EVERY owner of EVERY Atlanta sports team in EVERY era has been unable to get Atlanta fans to show up in numbers commensurate to their team’s record. And that is not true of ANY other city in the country.

niremetal

January 19th, 2011
1:40 am

In 5 of the 9 seasons the Falcons have played under Blank, their attendance ranking has been lower than their ranking in the standings. Even in the days of Vick, the Falcons never got higher than 10th in the NFL in attendance. Yeah. Blank seems to have made the Falcons very fan-friendly. Sadly, the fans have not reciprocated.

But ok, keep pushing the myth that Blank’s efforts are somehow vindicating the argument that Atlanta has a crappy pro sports fan base. Ignore the fact that the Falcons have been outdrawn by teams far worse than them in each of the past 3 seasons. Just like you ignored the fact that Hawks’ attendance sucked in the age of Nique despite your anecdotal memories that the Omni was rockin’ back then.

niremetal

January 19th, 2011
1:41 am

But ok, keep pushing the myth that Blank’s efforts are somehow vindicating the argument that Atlanta doesn’t have a crappy pro sports fan base.

niremetal

January 19th, 2011
1:47 am

Josh’s jumpers watch update:

vs. Hou: 1-8 (0-2 on 3s)
vs. Sac: 3-7 (2-3 on 3s)
vs. Mia: 2-10 (0-3 on 3s)

Total: 6-25 (2-8 on 3s)
FG%: .240
eFG%: .280
eFG% vs. season avg: -.179
vs. ’09-’10 avg: -.006

————————————————————————————————
I think this is the first 3-game stretch of the year where Josh’s jumper eFG% has been lower than his jumper eFG% from last season.

niremetal

January 19th, 2011
1:58 am

And doc,

I do go to Hawks games in Atlanta at least once per year. I didn’t think the experience was noticeably different from the games I’ve attended in DC, Philly, and Portland. Well, except for the number of fans who are there supporting the away team.

Ironically, I do frequent Hawks websites quite a bit and am on pretty much every team mailing list. So I actually could speak far more confidently about the Hawks’ use of online media than I could about local media. Which makes AJ’s bait-and-switch from local media to online media all the more amusing.

That being said, I already admitted that I don’t know enough about marketing in general or the Hawks’ marketing in particular to assess whether what they’re doing is enough. All I’m saying is that the overwhelming evidence is that the Hawks’ attendance woes stem from fan base-related issues (transplants, transportation, preferences for other sports, etc), unless you think that poor marketing has been a feature of every single Atlanta sports team owner in the past 45 years.

wordsmithtom

January 19th, 2011
6:46 am

Beating Miami is the best marketing they can do. Got some love on Bloomberg News this morning citing Josh Smith’s role in the OT win. We’ve got to beat the “elite” before we can lure fans back.

Actually, I believe the season is TOO long…too many meaningless games. But that’s the business.

Great win nevertheless. Now we need to take Boston by the horns next time.

It WAS a BAD pick

January 19th, 2011
6:49 am

Apparently niremetal does not actually have opinions on subjects. He just waits for somebody else to have an opinion on something and then attacks it. From hundreds of miles away no less. I have been reading this blog for a while and I do not know how you guys can stand that noise all the time. We have to listen to the same nonsense on hawksquawk too though, so do not feel too bad.

It WAS a BAD pick

January 19th, 2011
6:51 am

And what is up with the obsession of one player’s shots? I know a closet hater when I see one. At least the media knows Josh was helpful in winning this game.

O'Brien

January 19th, 2011
7:28 am

Hawks made alot of mistakes in this game.

So the fact that they were able to still win, on the road against a good team, on the second night of a back to back, when even the refs were against them…should be a great confidence builder and teaching tool. Great Win.

If we can play defense like this every game, we will always have a chance to win. We need Marvin back though, because Josh and JJ having to chase LeBron requires a lot of energy.

Interesting stat; Hawks are 10-3 on the second game of a back to back. Maybe they are more focused when they are a little tired.

O'Brien

January 19th, 2011
7:38 am

To weigh in on the marketing discussion, I dont think we should judge attendance on strictly where the team ranks in the league (attendance vs standings).

Are we taking stadium/arena capacity into consideration, or are we just looking at number of fans at the game?

Along those lines, I hope the ASG marketing department is not concerned about where the team attendance ranks in comparison to other teams.

They should be concerned about the number of empty seats in the arena, and are they doing all they can to bring in more fans (regardless of the history of ATL Sports fans).

doc

January 19th, 2011
8:51 am

that sorry jamal only +14 last night. guy csnt play at all. never shows up for big games either because his defense is so sorry. cant wait for sund to replace him with another player the league picks up some of the salary for.

doc

January 19th, 2011
8:57 am

o’b they suck when they get too much rest, it seems. comments like, no focus, no energy, come out flat …. seem to follow those long rests. amazing we were able to win on the road not at full strength.

UGASlobberknocker

January 19th, 2011
9:20 am

The Hawks take off too many nights. Drew is not pushing for 100% effort. He is the players choice and that never works. I would place him in the bottom 5 coaches in the NBA.. Certainly the worst coach who isnt old and white.

Melvin

January 19th, 2011
9:34 am

UGAslob,

You chose to bash the Hawks after their biggest win of the season. Now that’s good timing…..

Astro Joe

January 19th, 2011
9:42 am

Interesting perspective from Josh on chasing LeBron through all of those screens. Presumably, this is true for other SFs (like Granger, Pierce, Hedo, etc.). I wonder if other SFs on the team sometimes “lose their legs” when fighting through all of those screens.

“It’s so hard to be able to guard so many re-screens,” Josh said. “You find your legs getting tired. They beat you up on the screens. But it’s all mental for me and I just fought through it.

O'Brien

January 19th, 2011
9:51 am

AJ,

Assuming they do, one way to help is for the other SFs on the team to be an offensive threat. That way, the other team’s SF has to play defense, run through screens etc, and not get the chance to rest on defense all the time.

Fortunately for the Hawks, Marvin has been playing better (15 ppg)of late. Hopefully he will come back healthy and pick up where he left off.

Astro Joe

January 19th, 2011
9:53 am

doc, Jamal had a very nice game, no doubt. And the Hawks are exceptional on the second night of back-to-back games… so there is definitely something to your earlier point about struggling after too much rest. More than the fact that they won the game, I love HOW they won the game. Much less finesse and much more toughness and determination. Now, can they keep that up when all are healthy or does that resolve only show up when a key figure is hurt (e.g. Joe or Al)?

It was funny watching Bibby “moisturize” himself in the background while Joe was being interviewed after the game. I think he was putting on a show for the camera, at least, I’d like to think that he was putting on a show… :lol:

O'Brien

January 19th, 2011
9:58 am

Doc,

I’ve heard baseball players say when they are sick, they have better at-bats sometimes, because they are more focused on the task at hand, and things slow down for them. Maybe thats what the Hawks are doing when they are a little tired. More focus.

As for Jamal, I wish the ASG can afford to resign him. He is a great asset to have on the bench, as long as the coach keeps an eye on minutes and whether he is hot or not.

But we need to upgrade other areas of the bench too. Maybe the Hawks will go on a run in the playoffs, and convince the ASG to spend more money.

Astro Joe

January 19th, 2011
9:58 am

OB, I think it comes down to playing roles within the team. If Marvin has 10 gallons of fuel to burn in a game, on this team when everyone is healthy, I think he needs to burn about 7 of those gallons on the defensive end. What I took from the statement is that chasing SFs through, over and around screens can affect your legs, which we know, can affect your offense. But on this team, I’d much rather see him burn his fuel on defense than not close out or not chase the opposing player so that he is fresh to take a 20 foot jumper. And we have definitely watched some players decide not to spend the fuel on defense.

UGASlobberknocker

January 19th, 2011
10:05 am

Hey Melvin, Im not bashing the Hawks. The blog asked what we thought of Drew. I answered.

It was a great win last night Dont know how long youve been a Hawks fan, but I attended the first ever Hawks game at Tech in 1968 at age 10. Been a fan for better and mostly worse since then. Sweet Lou, Pistol Pete, Nique, Tree, Doc, Willis and more. so not a Hawk basher but a long time fan who knows a bad coach when he sees one.

UGASlobberknocker

January 19th, 2011
10:25 am

I didnt get to the Kings game this yr on MLK day. Even tho Im a kinda old white guy, I think the day game on MLK day is the biggest home game of the yr. I also think the Hawks could do so much more than they currently do to honor King while they have that natl stage. I am not qualified to say how that would be done..but I do have one idea:

At halftime, dim the lights and then run Dr Kings famous speech in its entirety on video screen. I would bet that when he finished up swoth :Free at last….” the place would be standing and roaring. Just a thought.

vava74

January 19th, 2011
1:12 pm

doc,

Jamal had a very good game last night and I have no problem acknowledging that he was decisive.

However, Miami is a good match up for the Hawks and in particular for Bibby and Jamal since their PGs are sub-par players and don’t handle the rock and penetrate.

Also, Jamal’s shots, even the tricky ones, were going in, which is something that does not happen all the time and when that does not happen, along with his poor D usually comes pretty poor shot selection and ball management.

vava74

January 19th, 2011
1:46 pm

My general notes on the game:

1. I only watched the game today – finished a few minutes ago – so I could do it with a clear head.

2. We played a good game overall from an intensity point of view.

3. The execution on D was the best part of the game with everyone playing most of the time a very solid fundamental game on that end.

4. On offense we executed well at spaces and terribly on others, but so did MIA in what looked like a playoff game.

Some clean and open looks which did not go in could have given us a bigger margin to work with but they simply did not fall.

IMO, we had better misses from 3 point land than the Heat who had more contested/forced shots than we did. So, if we adjusted the % slightly in accordance to the quality of the shots I think we would have been better off than MIA.

5. It must be noted that Lebron (Wade as well) seemed to be below his physical standard thus limiting his ability to zip through the lane and get to the rim.

On the other hand, we lost Al with a lot to go and still won, so we may have be even on physical availability.

6. Our defense on Lebron was only so-so IMO and sincerely I did not see Josh “fighting through screens” like he claims he did.

He used his hands and moved his feet well at times, but I would not consider his defensive effort on Lebron more than a C+.

He did rebound well and hustled and that dunk was extremely important for many reasons. Also, he did well in the clutch with that lay up.

7. JJ had a difficult game from 3 point land, missing clean open looks. If he had connected 2 of them, which would not have been nothing out of this world, his shooting would have looked much better overall and his final numbers up to the level we would all have liked to see.

Overall IMO I think he only forced 3 or 4 possessions, 2 ISO plays which were really bad options and two 3 pointers which were really stupid, being that the 2 ISO and 1 3pt were during the second quarter.

So, I don’t think that anyone can say that “ISO Joe” was that damaging during the 2nd period as many pointed out since of his 6 misses (1-7 during the period) only 3 possessions were actually bad IMO.

His other misses were good looks or good ISO plays that he did not get to go in with one being a clear foul on a drive which was not called.

JJ also played, IMO, the best D on Lebron, being penalized twice by bad calls from the refs when he swiped the ball from behind twice.

8. As I said above on a post for doc, Jamal had a very good game and so did Bibby, but MIA is a good match up for them (since they both spit minutes at the PG slot and MIA’s PGs are not ball handling penetrators).

9. The officiating was terrible at times, in particular during the 2nd and 3rd quarters when they got MIA back into the game.

I counted 11 bad calls going against the Hawks. None against MIA.

They did call Wade and Lebron for travel offenses which is something rare, so even with the FT disparity and the number of bad calls against us, I think that this crew ended up doing an almost acceptable job given what is the expected (bad) standard when facing Lebrat.

A very satisfying game.

And while we are at it, I was giving a bit of a thought on how much difference would Bosh have made and on our side Marvin and ended up thinking that Marvin may be better suited to defend Bosh or at least to split minutes since Bosh is a pansy and a jump shooter and Marvin defends shooters better than Smoove who usually gives them too much space when he is afraid to be beaten off the dribble.

So, my defensive assignments on an eventual series against MIA would have JJ, Wilkins and Mo splitting time defending Wade.

JJ, Wilkins, Marvin and occasionally JSmoove splitting time defending Lebrat;

Marvin, JSmoove and Al splitting time defending Bosh.

vava74

January 19th, 2011
1:52 pm

oh, by the way, I was very impressed with Dampier! :-D

being swatted by Powell is a honor which not many 6′11 guys can boast about :-)

A-non-ee-mus

January 19th, 2011
1:52 pm

Most underrated big man: Al Horford

——————————————————————————–
By Tom Haberstroh
ESPN Insider

Al Horford’s superior handle and solid jumper make him a nightmare to guard.

According to the latest All-Star ballot update, Atlanta Hawks big man Al Horford received less than 200,000 votes, which ranks fifth among centers in the Eastern Conference and 12th if you include the Western Conference lot at the position. Even Dallas backup center Brendan Haywood, he of 4.1 points and 5.1 rebounds per game, has garnered more love from fans.

That’s a shame because, outside of Dwight Howard, there may not be a more complete center in today’s game than Horford. Speaking before Tuesday’s game against Miami, Horford said he knows he won’t surpass Howard in the fan vote, but the former Florida Gators’ forward hopes the coaches give him the nod to play in Los Angeles in February.

“It’d mean a lot,” Horford said. “I’ve put in the work and put myself in the position, I feel, to be able to make the All-Star team. That would be special. All I can do is keep playing.”

In his fourth season in the league, the 24-year-old Horford is currently averaging 16.2 points, 9.7 rebounds and 3.4 assists per game, while shooting 57 percent from the field. Put it all together and we find that his 22.6 Player Efficiency Rating (PER) ranks second among qualified centers, not to mention outpaces every Hawks player by a wide margin.

So if you’re searching for explanations as to why Atlanta, at 28-15, is still chasing a top-four seed in the East, you might want to start with the unheralded big man. The Hawks played nine games in December without go-to scorer Joe Johnson, but they stayed afloat with a 5-4 record, thanks to Horford taking on a bigger role on offense and averaging a double-double in Johnson’s absence.

While Horford has seen more touches this season under new head coach Larry Drew, it’s puzzling why he doesn’t get even more. Horford’s usage rate — the estimated percentage of team possessions used by a particular player while on the floor — has climbed from 17.6 percent in 2009-10 to 20.4 percent this season, which is a welcomed boost but still not commensurate with his scoring talents. He’s still very much a fourth option on offense, and there’s good reason why he demands a higher spot in the pecking order.

Seventy players in the league — big and small — have made at least 70 isolation plays this season. Take a guess how many of those players have a higher efficiency than Horford’s 1.1 points per isolation play. Three — Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Martin and Chauncey Billups. That’s it.

Normally when a player shoulders more scoring responsibility, we tend to see his shooting numbers dive in the opposite direction. But not Horford. In fact, the big man’s efficiency has improved with more touches this season, as his field goal percentage has risen from 55.1 percent to 56.6 percent. Not only that, he’s cut down on his turnovers, too.

If you watch Horford play, you can see why he’s able to maintain his lofty efficiency. What sets Horford apart from other league big men is his rare ability to put the ball on the floor and create offense away from the block. That diversifies his attack and keeps the defense guessing. Skill-wise, Horford has no problems starting out on the perimeter from the triple-threat position and crossing up his defender off the dribble en route to the basket. According to Synergy data, 70 players in the league — big and small — have made at least 70 isolation plays this season. Take a guess how many of those players have a higher efficiency than Horford’s 1.1 points per isolation play. Three — Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Martin and Chauncey Billups. That’s it.

Horford is an absolute nightmare for opposing big men to defend out on the perimeter because he can blow by if them if they play too close. But play too far off and he’ll happily drill a jumper. So far this season, Horford has nailed 58 percent of his long-2-point attempts (from 16-23 feet) this season, which is hands-down the best conversion rate in the league, according to Hoopdata.com. Nowitzki? 53 percent. Kevin Garnett? 48 percent. Kevin Durant? 41 percent. Horford has them all beat.

“I just worked a lot in the offseason,” Horford said about his jumper. “A lot of people are not necessarily acknowledging that part of my game, so they’re letting me shoot the ball. I’ve been working on that and I feel more confident.”

But despite his scoring talents, Horford doesn’t just create for himself; the big man can pass, too. Double team him in the post and he’ll dish out to Mike Bibby or Johnson spotting up on the perimeter. After dropping eight dimes against the Houston Rockets on Saturday, Horford followed up with another six assists against the Sacramento Kings on Monday night. How many turnovers in those two games? Just two.

Horford believes a late growth spurt has something to do with his ability to make those types of plays. He grew up playing the 2 and 3, which enabled him to build ballhandling skills long before he became a big man. He also credits his collegiate experience at Florida, where he won two straight national championships alongside fellow NBA players Joakim Noah and Corey Brewer.

“[Florida] coach [Billy]Donovan gave us a lot of freedom once we got the rebound on the defensive end to bring the ball down, and our shooters would spot up for 3s,” Horford said. “I came here, and in my rookie year [former Hawks] coach [Mike] Woodson would let me play, and this has been a carry over for me.”

Perhaps the most impressive aspect about Horford’s game is that he’s displaying All-Star-caliber basketball, despite playing the majority of the time out of position.

“I still consider myself a forward,” Horford said. “I just have to play the center here. We have Josh [Smith], and he does a good job playing the 4. And I don’t mind playing the 5.”

The 24-year-old stands 6 feet, 10 inches tall and plays predominantly against the league’s biggest players. But despite the size disadvantage, Horford has managed to be a top-10 rebounder for the second straight season.

All things considered, there’s not much Horford can’t do out on the court. The disparity between his actual value and fan voting places him among the most underrated players in the NBA. If the coaches select him to the All-Star game as a reserve, he may not go under the radar much longer.

Tom Haberstroh is a frequent contributor to ESPN Insider and ESPN.com’s Heat Index

Big Ray

January 19th, 2011
2:10 pm

I’ll take that win. Intensity level was high, even if there were plenty of errant shots and some mistakes.

Glad to see someone besides Joe step up when the end came, and I really wasn’t sure whether or not Josh would be a part of that.

Big Ray

January 19th, 2011
2:18 pm

UGA slobberknocker ,

Welcome to the blog, hope you stick around. By the way, I think Drew is a better coach than you do, but I also think the sample size of a half season isn’t enough to prove anything either way.

Oh, and there’s an “old white guy” coach that I’d take in a heartbeat for a coach, if he wasn’t too old to coach now. Name’s Hubie Brown. And that’s coming from a black guy….which shouldn’t really mean anything. ;)

Astro Joe

January 19th, 2011
3:15 pm

Maybe we could put Hubie in one of those Back to the Future time machines. I’m not greedy, just make him about 8 years younger and we can hire him in a heartbeat (even Gearon would like give his approval on that one). Good read on the Horford article. Surely the Hawks will have at least one player on the All Star team… so my vote goes to “The Boss”.

Astro Joe

January 19th, 2011
3:16 pm

My vote goes to “The Boss” even if I am a little sick of hearing him tell everyone under the sun that he considers himself a PF.

Melvin

January 19th, 2011
3:48 pm

UGASlob,

Fair point and not a bad idea for the MLK game as well…

niremetal

January 19th, 2011
5:44 pm

Niremetal’s random thought of the day, culled from a discussion on Hawksquawk as to whether the Hawks are a better/worse/neutral team without Marvin:

I calculate us as being 23-12 (.657) without Marvin and 105-67 (.610) with Marvin since the beginning of the ‘08-’09 year. The math is a bit more interesting if you break it down into home and away:

W/O MARVIN: 23-12 (.657)
Home: 13-6 (.684)
Road: 10-6 (.625)

W/MARVIN: 105-67 (.610)
Home: 66-17 (.795)
Road: 39-50 (.438)

The discrepancy makes more sense if you see the teams we have played at home and on the road during his absences. His injuries have tended to fall during homestands against relatively strong teams – we played NO, UTA, POR, DAL, SAS, BOS, LAL, and ORL at home when he was out in ‘08 (of which we won 5 and lost 3 for a below-usual .625). The road games, on the other hand, have tended to be against relatively weak ones – this year, we went 4-0 without Marvin in road games against MIN, LAC, SAC, and TOR, but 2-2 in our road games against playoff-bound teams (ORL, OKC, UTA, MIA).

To me, the big thing is the broader trend that the Hawks seemed to get off to hot starts when players missed games due to injury during the Woody era, only to regress and play worse-than-usual once other teams adjusted. That’s what happened after JJ’s leg injury in ‘07, Josh’s ankle injury in Dec ‘08, JJ’s two-game flu absence in Feb ‘09 (which saw Marvin go off the chain), and Marvin’s back injury later in ‘09. The only exception was Al’s knee bruise early in Jan ‘09 – Woody couldn’t scheme around Al’s absence. Other than that, the only variable was how long it took other teams to figure out what simplistic adjustments Woody had made and respond accordingly. The first couple games after a player went down were the only times the Hawks weren’t depressingly predictable. But that, of course, is an observation that’s tough to quantify precisely.

O'Brien

January 19th, 2011
7:08 pm

From the Denver Post;

Nets owner Mikhail Prokhorov said today his team is no longer interested in pursuing Nuggets forward Carmelo Anthony.

“There comes a time when the price is simply too expensive,” he said during a news conference in New Jersey this afternoon. “I’m instructing our team to walk away from the deal.”.

I’m glad thats over. maybe now we can some other trades being made.

Ken Strickland

January 19th, 2011
7:30 pm

When your 2 worst defenders, one a starting PG and the other the 6th MOY SG/PG, averages 30+MPG, your DEF has to suffer, unless you have an eraser type of center to compensate. Unfortunately, there’s very little, if anything, that Bibby is capable of doing at this point in his career that necessitates him playing 30+MPG.

We need Marvin to return, but we can’t expect him to return to his preinjury level of production, because of poor gm conditioning. Back problems limit the ability to maintain gm level conditioning. His return adds more needed bench depth, whether he starts or not.

With more astute coaching and better situational substitutions, Bibby’s mins can be reduced by 5-8MPG, with minimal reduction to his overall production. Adding those 5-8MPB to Teague’s 11.7MPG would certainly increase his contributions to the team, as well as accelerate his development. It’s a win win situation.

Big Ray

January 19th, 2011
8:35 pm

Big Ray

January 19th, 2011
8:36 pm

That’s what I thought of the ‘Melo talk. Seems that Prokhorov knows his b-ball a little bit. Now ‘Melo can wish he had gone to “The Summit”…. :lol:

Big Ray

January 19th, 2011
8:37 pm

Nothing says “you ain’t all that and a bag of chips” like a hot and heavy suitor suddenly, finally just losing interest.

Either that, or the Nets are posturing. I’ll go with option A….

Astro Joe

January 19th, 2011
9:08 pm

Big Ray, I’m going with Option B. I think he is trying to punk Melo into accepting the deal now or losing millions next year. IMO, this guy wants to make a big splash and he struck out in the summer and if he strikes out now, then what? So I think he is trying to “punk” Melo.

O'Brien

January 19th, 2011
9:11 pm

Big Ray,

Carmelo has been wishy-washy with his comments, so I think he did not want to go to NJ, but did not want to be the one to tell Denver or NJ no. He wanted it to work out the way it did, where the deal is off, without him having to make a decision or say anything.

I think he will still be traded though. Either the Nuggets will get the Knicks to up their trade package, or maybe there is a team willing to rent Anthony for half a season.

Astro Joe

January 19th, 2011
9:14 pm

Sorry about being redundant. Of course, if Melo is truly willing to tell LaLa that she has to spend less next year, then dude holds all of the cards and the Russian must deal with being rejected (and losing this battle to the Knicks). Sorry for the pessimism but not too many folk would sacrifice big cash for being a tunnel ride away from their desired destination. Dude could easily live in a Manhattan penthouse and commute to Newark.

O'Brien

January 19th, 2011
9:14 pm

AJ,

I think Carmelo wants to form another “Heatles” in NY with Stoudemire, and hopefully CP3 in 2 or 3 seasons.

That is a lot of money to leave on the table though, because who knows what the new CBA will do to max contracts.

O'Brien

January 19th, 2011
10:02 pm

What’s going on in Portland? it is being reported that Camby needs arthroscopic surgery on his knee. Ouch.

Big Ray

January 19th, 2011
11:49 pm

Astro Joe ,

True, it could be the case. Or, Prokhorov could have a line on something else. I guess we’ll see.

Here’s the kicker, though: ‘Melo really seems to want to be in NY. But does NY want him ? Felton and Stoudamire seem to be getting along plenty good (though adding ‘Melo might make them harder to defend), and we know Stoudamire is not one to share the spotlight as much as he’d have to with ‘Melo.

I don’t know. Maybe they’re both posturing, but we may not know what ‘Melo’s true aim is. I know this much: you’re right about the cash. CBA or not, the russian has the cash. He’ll sign somebody. He’ll make a splash somehow.

Meanwhile….

http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-hawks/energy-guy-josh-smith-809395.html

There was a time where the content of this article used to give me hope. That time is past. I’m tired of a team that needs one guy to be their energy source. Especially when that guy doesn’t know how to be a professional night in an night out.

For all you other Josh fans, get mad if you want to about that comment. But get mad at the right person. I’m a Josh fan. But dude is NOT team captain material and is NOT setting an example from game to game.

The article says it all. But what’s worse? Josh not playing “interested” every game, or the team sucking eggs when he isn’t there to jumpstart them? Preposterous….

Big Ray

January 19th, 2011
11:53 pm

doc

January 20th, 2011
12:31 am

melvin, no i wont be there sadly for the hornets game. i am headed to the catskills of all places for some training this weekend. i relly wish i could go as i still think this team might have some moxie going if they could just stay focused for four quarters or get used to protecting the ball and enjoy that part of basketball.

vava agree we got some chance against the heat and said it several times before this game. not so sure about the likes of the celts right now when healthy nor the magic as hedo presents some probs for us in my mind.

glad to see that josh chased queen into a 10 for 30 night was it?

nire good points on the woody effect after injuries and yes i noticed the trend to do well initially after a player got injured then falter. remember when mo was about undefeated as a starter in 08 was it then the roof fell in? not sure what your summary of the marvin effect was.

big ray count me in on the josh thing, a bit too cavalier when we lose though bibby has a similar temperament as well from recent comments after losses. again it is time to do what smoltz had to do to finish the product …. find a really good sports psychologist and commit as much there as he has to the physical side of it.

O'Brien

January 20th, 2011
7:15 am

Big Ray,

I think NY wants Melo. But they would prefer to sign him over the offseason after the new CBA, and they wouldnt have to give up as many assets to get him.

As for the Hawks midseason coaching review, LD is more flexible with his lineups, and there is more structure to the offense.

And I co-sign your Josh comments. For a team that has aspirations of getting to the ECF and beyond, why are they always depending on one guy to bring the energy? Every player should bring energy.

And for a player that wants to be an All-Star, and has been in the league, what, 7 years, we are still talking about him not bringing “it” more consistently.

vava74

January 20th, 2011
8:29 am

vava74

January 20th, 2011
8:47 am

Chicago’s schedule has been fairly easy and to my calculations they only had 3 quality wins (@ Dallas, vs. Celtics and vs. Heat) benefiting in 2 from major absences.

I think that they will have trouble getting as many wins as they have been amassing until now against better competition.

They will have, not far away from now, the following schedule:

Wednesday, Feb 9 @Jazz
Saturday, Feb 12 @Hornets
Tuesday, Feb 15 Bobcats
Thursday, Feb 17 Spurs
Wednesday, Feb 23 @Raptors
Thursday, Feb 24 Heat
Saturday, Feb 26 @Bucks
Monday, Feb 28 @Wizards
Wednesday, Mar 2 @Hawks
Friday, Mar 4 @Magic
Sunday, Mar 6 @Heat
Monday, Mar 7 Hornets
Wednesday, Mar 9 @Bobcats
Friday, Mar 11 Hawks
Saturday, Mar 12 Jazz

That’s 10 tough matches and 5 “easy” ones.

If we get the 2 wins against them, I think they will loose 7 out of the 10 tough ones and maybe 1 of the easy ones, meaning that they should go 7-8 or 8-7 during that stretch.

During that same stretch we have:

Tuesday, Feb 8 76ers
Saturday, Feb 12 Bobcats
Monday, Feb 14 @Pistons
Wednesday, Feb 16 @Knicks
Tuesday, Feb 22 @Lakers
Wednesday, Feb 23 @Suns
Friday, Feb 25 @Warriors
Sunday, Feb 27 @Trail Blazers
Monday, Feb 28 @Nuggets
Wednesday, Mar 2 Bulls
Friday, Mar 4 Thunder
Sunday, Mar 6 Knicks
Tuesday, Mar 8 Lakers
Friday, Mar 11 @Bulls
Saturday, Mar 12 Trail Blazers

That’s 9 difficult and 6 “easy” games (I’m counting on beating PHO or POR away)

If we win the 2 games against the Bulls, I think we can get 6 wins out of the 9 difficult games and 5 out of the 6 easy ones.

That would be 11-4 or maybe 10-5

If we accomplish this, we may get some separation to close the season above them.

I know that this is wishful thinking – that we will get quality wins – but apart from a couple of really bad losses – being BOS @ home the main one, I think we are getting there and playing better against playoff teams as the season progresses.

O'Brien

January 20th, 2011
9:51 am

vava,

And with the Bulls being more injury prone, that could make them struggle even more against those good teams.

The Hawks are playing better against playoff teams. They just need to be more consistent, and not hang their heads when the other team makes a run.

Astro Joe

January 20th, 2011
9:51 am

I guess I look at the Josh article differently. I think most teams have defined roles amonst the players. There is a wise old guy, the lead dog, the enforcer, the energy guy and the intangibles man (or glue guy). Josh happens to be the energy guy for this team. If aliens took him away on a flying saucer tomorrow, someone else would have to assume that role. Joakim Noah is that guy in Chicago and when he’s missing, someone else steps up to provide the team’s energy.

I actually like the notion that the teammates “need each other”. If you’re looking for chemistry, you want these guys to feel like they each bring something different and unique to the table that makes them better as a whole. You want them to think that they are better with Marvin’s defense, with Jamal’s explosiveness, with Al’s stability, with Joe’s consistency, with Bibby’s savvy and with Josh’s energy. The problem happens when they don’t believe in each other, then you get epic beat-downs like the Orlando series. At least, that’s my opinion.

Astro Joe

January 20th, 2011
9:58 am

As for the NBA.com report card, I guess it is about right. Although giving the bench a B because of one player (Jamal) seems a little off to me. Powell and Teague have been demoted since the start of the season. I think a B is very, very generous for our bench.

newkid

January 20th, 2011
11:33 am

Interesting development with the Melo-drama, eh? Prokhorov said: “As soon as you make a mistake, you can wait for the next chance for the next five or six years.” Hmmmmmmmm; Marvin, Shelden,……

If it holds, who’s the loser, Nets or Nuggets? With a competent player personnel scouting department, a side could get awfully good awfully quick with five 1st rounders over the next two years.

Astro Joe

January 20th, 2011
12:01 pm

newkid, if Denver is really insisting that the Nets take back Harrington and Balkman, then the Nets win by walking away. When the Nets owner mentioned “the price is too high”, he presumably was talking about taking on every bad contract in Denver (including some of the Colorado Rockies). They’re better off using Murphy’s expiring contract on something else either now or in the summer. Draft picks are always going to be hit/miss, but salary cap space to trade for or sign known NBA players is something that is much too valuable to toss aside for the rights to get a less-than-happy player (who will spend the next 3 years longing for a Garden home) and 2-3 years of bad contracts. IMO, walking away leaves the Nets as winners. Nuggets, meanwhile, may have to wait and hope that the new CBA allows them to get a TPE or something when Melo heads to the Knicks. The other winner? Wilson Chandler who will likely get a fat contract from another team in the summer after the Knicks kick him to the curb.

O'Brien

January 20th, 2011
1:19 pm

newkid,

If Denver does not find any better offers, maybe they revisit the Nets with a different/lesser package before the deadline.

I think the Nuggets have to move Melo before the deadline, because there is no way of knowing how sign and trades will work after the new CBA. And will they get better returns from the Knicks over the offseason compared to what they would get now?

AJ,

There is a rumor that Houston is willing to trade for Melo, even if he doesnt sign an extension with them.

Astro Joe

January 20th, 2011
1:32 pm

OB, yeah, I read that one too. For some teams, I think it is worth the risk. Houston has probably learned that Martin isn’t a long-term “core” player so trading him and an expiring contract actually helps them get Martin off their books.

If Chris Kamen shows any sign of health before 2/24, that is one guy who should be at the top of the “most likely to be traded” list. The Clippers have been rolling without him and DeAndre Jordan looks like a good fit next to Griffin. Kamen, Troy Murphy and Dalembert are as good as gone in the next 5 weeks.

newkid

January 20th, 2011
2:17 pm

I think Denver realizes that the Nuggets either overplayed their hand with all those shenanigans, or that Prok is giving them a dose of their own medicine; Prok is in the driver’s seat for sure. I agree OB, Denver’s gotta (and almost certainly will) move Melo before the trade deadline; and a TPE might just be a huge part of whatever deal gets done (especially if Melo ends up parking in midtown Manhattan). A TPE agreed under the current CBA ain’t likely be to recinded by the new CBA. If I’m Prok, no way in hell I’m giving up as many pieces as has been mentioned without Melo’s signature on the extension, and I doubt I’d even consider it with an extension (AJ’s right to be concerned about a sulking Melo creating 3 years of drama for BK#2).

Wouldn’t want to sit across a high stakes poker table from Prok. I don’t think he’s bluffing, and if he is, cat’s good.

Najeh Davenpoop

January 20th, 2011
9:27 pm

“But what’s worse? Josh not playing “interested” every game, or the team sucking eggs when he isn’t there to jumpstart them? ”

I would think the fact that the team is so reliant on one player to provide energy is an indictment of the team more than it is of that player.

Najeh Davenpoop

January 20th, 2011
9:29 pm

“giving the bench a B because of one player (Jamal) seems a little off to me.”

No argument from me that most of the bench is weak, but Collins has been solid all year in his role as an interior man to man defender. If he counts as a bench player, that makes two reliable players off the bench.

O'Brien

January 20th, 2011
9:59 pm

Hopefully, Marvin will return to is pre-injury form, and him and Collins will combine to make the bench more formidable, while they alternate starts.

Astro Joe

January 21st, 2011
9:19 am

Funny, I haven’t seen much from Colins off the bench. He either starts or rarel gets minutes.

With Al missing and Joe having to play more time at SF (which shouldn’t be a concern against slight-in-the-frame Ariza), I hope that LD gives JC2 some love in tonight’s game.

O'Brien

January 21st, 2011
12:56 pm

Someone on the other blog was talking about attendance, so I looked at the numbers. So far, the Hawks are averaging 14,138 fans per game, which is about 2,400 less than last season. I did not realize it was such a big drop off.

AJ,

Don’t count on seeing JC2 tonight (except for a cameo, or in case of a blowout). We still have JJ, Mo Evans, Damien and Jamal (although Jamal plays backup PG too).

If anything, I think those guys will play extended minutes (including ZaZa).

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
1:13 pm

O’B,

Most of the big “drawing card” home games are still to come. We have yet to play Mia (#1 in road attendance), LAL (#3), Chi (#4), or OKC (#8) at home, and still have a home game each left to play against Bos (#2) and Orl (#9). I expect our end-of-year attendance stats to be slightly better than they look now. How much, I don’t know.

Astro Joe

January 21st, 2011
2:11 pm

http://www.ajc.com/sports/lawsuit-thrashers-owners-have-811606.html

So the owners are now suing the law firm who they say botched the contract that led to the years of issues. After saying several times that they couldn’t or wouldn’t sell the Thrashers, the lawsuit claims that the botched contract forced them into years of owning an unprofitable hockey team.

I’d love for someone to ask the ASG just one question, “were you lying before or are you lying now?”

Astro Joe

January 21st, 2011
2:14 pm

nire, so which side are you taking on this one, the incompetent law firm or the incompetent owners? I’ll hang up and listen. :lol:

Astro Joe

January 21st, 2011
2:41 pm

This is absolutely hilarious to me.

The Spirit filed a $200 million malpractice lawsuit against King & Spalding Friday, saying the law firm’s negligence cost them millions of dollars and made them “unable to sell or otherwise dispose of the Atlanta Thrashers.” King & Spalding’s contract caused the buyout process to “quickly break down into chaos,” costing seven of the partners $14.5 million in legal fees and forcing them to shovel more than $130 million into the Thrashers to keep the franchise afloat, the lawsuit says.

“(The) Plaintiffs inability to buy out Belkin’s interest in a timely manner and the resulting cloud on their title created by the Maryland litigation interfered with operation of the franchises and specifically prevented Plaintiffs from selling the Atlanta Thrashers,” the filing says.

So now they are saying that the litigation interfered with the operations of the franchises after saying for years that the nonsense had no bearing on the two teams.

So again, someone needs to ask, were you lying before or are you lying now?

And raise your hand if you are beginning to believe that Gearon, Levenson and others are addicted to lawsuits, courtrooms and contention.

And without cheating, raise your hand if you think that the Trashers blog is about 80%+ on the side of “please sell the Thrashers”.

This 5-6 year saga could easily be a Harvard Business Review Study on how not to manage a sports business… or a skkit on Mad TV.

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
2:45 pm

AJ,

From a legal perspective, the contract was poorly written to a mind-boggling degree. Whether it amounts to legal malpractice, well that’s a tough sell. Juries are really unpredictable in legal malpractice suits.

Law firms generally try to settle these types of suits quickly, though, if there’s any chance that a jury would find against them. There are few things more humiliating to a law firm than losing a high-profile legal malpractice suit. The only thing worse that I can think of off the top of my head is having a lawyer who bribed half of Congress while on your payroll.

The good news is that the firm they hired for the case – DSCK – is a contingent fee firm, which is the route most companies go when they file a legal malpractice suit (after all, if you’ve just been burned by crappy lawyers, you won’t be in a hurry to pay $600/hr to a whole new set of lawyers). Contingent fees mean that ASG won’t have to pay the lawyers anything unless they win or get money in a settlement. So this shouldn’t affect ASG’s cash-on-hand or book value.

Astro Joe

January 21st, 2011
2:52 pm

OK, one more (I’m loving this). Here’s my hope, that this new lawsuit takes about 1-2 years, with the judge ultimately saying…

“King & Spaulding did not willfully produce a sub-standard product on behalf of the plaintiffs. In addition, the plaintiffs had ample opportunity to review the contract and ensure that all loopholes and gaps were cared for prior to the document being final. Lastly, the plaintiffs signed the contract (presumably under no duress), suggesting that they read the agreement and concurred with the details of the document. Therefore, I am ruling in favor of King & Spaulding and rule that the ASG must pay King & Spaulding’s associated legal expenses related to this trial. This ruling is based solely on the fact that these are a bunch of dumba$$es who have spent far too much time in our judicial system”.

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
2:54 pm

Certainly, the Belkin lawsuit affected their ability to sell the teams or attract new investors. But yeah, “operation of the franchises” implies more than that. Methinks the DSCK associate who drafted the complaint didn’t check with the ASG PR department on the wisdom of discussing “operation of the franchises” in the complaint. Even though the complaint is written on ASG’s behalf, the reality is that lawyers rarely run the wording of court filings by their clients before they are submitted. When your client is high-profile, it often leads to embarrassing statements like this being included in the complaint. I’d bank that a lot of discussion in the coming weeks will center on the mention of “operation of the franchises” in the complaint, even though that language was almost certainly chosen by a young lawyer at DSCK trying to make sure the complaint is phrased in a way that maximizes potential damages, not by someone within ASG thinking about the ways in which the Belkin lawsuit affected ASG.

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
2:57 pm

AJ,

Erm…

1) Malpractice implies negligence, not “willfully” bad legal work.
2) Ordering the payment of attorney’s fees is rare, and only occurs when the complaint is frivolous. And I will bet you $100,000 that the complaint is not dismissed as frivolous.
3) Gee, why don’t you tell us what you really think of ASG?

Astro Joe

January 21st, 2011
2:58 pm

nire, thanks. I think I saw a commercial for DSCK the other day, something about “we don’t get paid unless you get paid”. It may have been while I was watching the Basketball Wives reality show.

Sorry, I thik this whole thing is very, very laughable. It doesn’t “prove” anything related to some of our fears and concerns about financial viability, focus and motives… but it certainly adds to the mountian of circumstantial evidence. And it certainly raises doubt about some of the past statements offered by Mike & Bruce previously.

Astro Joe

January 21st, 2011
3:06 pm

nire, at some point, don’t these guys have to read what their hired lawyers write? When will they learn that lesson? Come on… this is laughable. They are suing because they signed a bad contract (that they paid for) and now they have a lawsuit filed on their behalf that contradicts previous statements they made to the media and customers? I mean, DAMN!

Astro Joe

January 21st, 2011
3:14 pm

nire, maybe Mike & Bruce can hire you for their lawsuit against the young DSCK lawyer who botched the lawsuit filing against King & Spaulding who botched the appraisal process contract with Belkin who tried to turn the NBA Governor position into a dictatorship. OK, I’m dizzy.

Where’s David E. Kelly… I have a new idea for a TV show for him… ripped from the AJC headlines.

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
3:18 pm

The irony is that I’m a lawyer who tends to sympathize with businessmen but despises other lawyers. I guess it’s from the fact that I’ve worked for judges rather than law firms basically ever since I entered law school (before which I had two bad experiences working for law firms).

Nine out of every 10 commercial lawsuits I’ve seen are petty grievances following this general outline: Company A did business with Company B. Company A didn’t like the way Company B conducted themselves in the transaction. Company A gets angry and goes to talk to Lawyer C (a partner in a firm that charges by the hour) to ask if they can do anything about it. Since Lawyer C earns his money by generating business from his clients, he enthusiastically tells him “Yes! Company B acted horribly and you deserve money. I’ll take care of it for you.” Two days later, the docket clerk puts a complaint against Company B (drafted by Lawyer C) on Niremetal’s chair. If there’s merit to the suit, it usually settles. If it doesn’t settle, then several dozen hours of work later (interspersed with working on dozens of other cases that fit the same pattern), a judge or jury concludes what Niremetal could have told you at the outset: No one did anything warranting a lawsuit being filed. If Lawyer C had been a halfway decent person, he would have calmed Company A down at the outset, talked him down off the ledge, and figured out a way to mediate the dispute with Company B without involving the court. As it is, however, Company A has paid Lawyer C millions of dollars in legal fees for a lawsuit that was doomed to fail from the beginning.

As a general rule, people who are high up in the corporate world are very smart. Most of them are also well-meaning. That’s why I get ticked off when people talk out of their rears about the way people run their business. Lawyers on the other hand? With corporate litigators, at least, they make money by playing on people’s emotions and convincing them to fight with one another. Absent annoyed courts and legal malpractice suits, they have no incentive whatsoever to tell their client “no, don’t file that lawsuit.” So as a general rule, I applaud when courts smack lawyers down and when clients file legal malpractice suits. Those are the only things that keep lawyers “honest” (by which I mean “less dishonest”).

What did all that have to do with ASG’s specific case? Nothing. It had a lot more to do with the antitrust case I’m working on. C’est la vie.

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
3:19 pm

AJ,

Sorry, but it’s pretty apparent that you don’t get the ins and outs of how business transactions are negotiated and agreed to. Please, stop acting like you do.

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
3:21 pm

And this…

They are suing because they signed a bad contract (that they paid for) and now they have a lawsuit filed on their behalf that contradicts previous statements they made to the media and customers?

…is how I know you don’t get it.

Astro Joe

January 21st, 2011
3:33 pm

nire, you’re right, I don’t get the lies. And my guess is that all of the dummies who are supposed to be the customers of the ASG don’t get how they run their business either. I’m perfectly fine with being a dumb guy who keeps his disposable income in his pocket and cheers the team from the cheap seat in my den. Here’s something that you may want to recognize, when you’re trying to sell a product to customers, don’t lie to them, don’t cheat them and down talk down to them… that’s not a well-thought out strategy. Here’s my guess, the ASG will sell everything because they are woefully incompetent and are far too petty to sit in the same room with other owners from across the respective leagues. They are small time, small minded and an embarrassment to this city. They are wealthy sports fans who have no more business running sports teams than many of the not-so-wealthy sports fans on these blogs. And their attempt to bury this lawsuit filing on a Friday afternoon hopefully won’t be easily swept under the fraying infrastructure.

http://blogs.ajc.com/jeff-schultz-blog/2011/01/21/atlanta-spirit-lied-to-us-about-thrashers-go-figure/

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
3:39 pm

I’ll just put it this way. Doc and I were making jokes throughout the lawsuit about how the lawyers were laughing all the way to the bank about this one. I was at the trial. It was one of the most egregious examples of lawyer filling a vacuum that I’ve ever seen – the dispute really boiled down to the meaning of one contract clause and could have been taken care of in 1 day, but the judge gave them two weeks and the lawyers somehow found a way to fill up that entire time. And the biggest irony was (as I think I said at the time) that it was the lawyers who screwed it up in the first place by drafting a contract that was so poorly written.

Yes, the parties signed the bad contract. But the reality is that in the business world, it’s the lawyers who draft and explain contracts to their clients. The clients rarely have the legal know-how to judge how a claim term will be perceived in court, and certainly won’t be able to spot legal loopholes. That’s the whole reason lawyers exist – to draft language that will have the legal effect that the client intends. Once the client explains what they want, the lawyer’s job is to draft the contract and make sure that it includes provisions that anticipate contingencies and protect their client’s interests accordingly.

If businessmen could figure that stuff out on their own, there would be no need for lawyers. It’s the same reason intelligent laypeople generally ask lawyers to draft their freaking wills (a far, far simpler and more predictable type of document) instead of writing it themselves. Blaming a client for a poorly drafted contract is like blaming a patient when a doctor’s band handwriting leads to the pharmacy giving him the wrong prescription.

Anyway, not saying what the firm did amounts to legal malpractice. And honestly, I wish that clients DID take the time to learn at least the basics of commercial law so that there would be less need for lawyers. But in modern corporate America, that’s jut not the way things are done.

Astro Joe

January 21st, 2011
3:45 pm

But for the sake of argument (which I tend to enjoy), what exactly am I not getting? They paid for services by K&S which they say led to financial misfortune for them… but isn’t the signee responsible for understanding what they sign? Is that not a basic tenant of any legal agreement? Sure, the fallout is quite unfortunate, but how is it lawsuit material? Don’t they share accountability for signing a flawed document? If they were looking to force a quick settlement, then they certainly executed a strategy in a very flawed manner, huh? Schultz has done a fine job of capturing the frustration of the local fan base… so was the attempt to force a settlement worth frustrating your paying customer?

Mistake after mistake after mistake is my opinion. An incompetent set of team owners who likely do a far better job of operating within their original industries but are out of their league in sports management. How many brilliant industry geniuses once tried their hands in the hotel or airline business? Many. And many failed. Just because you can run a newsletter or wireless networking business doesn’t mean your capable of running a sports franchise.

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
3:57 pm

But for the sake of argument (which I tend to enjoy), what exactly am I not getting? They paid for services by K&S which they say led to financial misfortune for them… but isn’t the signee responsible for understanding what they sign? Is that not a basic tenant of any legal agreement? Sure, the fallout is quite unfortunate, but how is it lawsuit material? Don’t they share accountability for signing a flawed document?

Read my last post again. If you do and still don’t get it, I don’t know what to tell you. If businessmen could draft and read a contract, anticipate all contingencies, and predict its legal effect, there would be no need for lawyers.

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
3:58 pm

But to answer one part of your question succintly:

isn’t the signee responsible for understanding what they sign? Is that not a basic tenant of any legal agreement?

No.

Astro Joe

January 21st, 2011
4:01 pm

nire, wow! I’ll have to try that with by creditors then. “I didn’t understand the mumbo-jumbo language in the contract so that’s why I failed to…”

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
4:03 pm

It’s funny. I can almost hear AJ typing like “so you’re telling me that when I sign the purchase agreement for a used car, I’m not supposed to read it first?” or some other stupid question that is completely different from the sweepingly overgeneral question of whether “the signee [being] responsible for understanding what they sign” is a “basic tenant of any legal agreement.” Wait for it…

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
4:04 pm

Ha. He did it even before I finished typing my prediction. Boy, you are pathetic and predictable, AJ.

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
4:05 pm

Sorry to be condescending, but you’re proving why lawyers exists. Because even people who think they are smart really don’t know jack $h!t about the law.

Astro Joe

January 21st, 2011
4:07 pm

nire, yeah, like the ASG owners. Because unlike them, I have NEVER had to sue anyone becauise I didn’t understand something that I signed.

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
4:09 pm

There are about a million distinctions flying over AJ’s pretty little head right about now. Little things like the difference between form contracts and negotiated agreements, the possibility of both being bound by a bad agreement but also being able to seek a remedy from the person who drafted that agreement, etc, etc, etc. But AJ will keep talking out of his a$$ anyway. Because that’s what AJ does.

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
4:10 pm

I’m perfectly fine with being a dumb guy

At least you said it so I don’t have to.

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
4:11 pm

Oh wait, did I just take something out of context and use it to make it sound like AJ said something different than what he actually said? Damn! AJ must be rubbing off on me.

Astro Joe

January 21st, 2011
4:15 pm

nire, you make this sound like they were reviewing the equations associated with laying the foundation of a nuclear factory on volcanic land. Didn’t this whole thing come down to the fact that there were no provisions for how to determine the apprasisor if both parties objected to the initial appraisal? Wasn’t that essentially the reason for the Maryland trial, to ask a judge to figure out who gets to hire the appraiser since the initial contract didn’t buildin a simple “if, then” statement? And you know who found that loophole? Belkin… and he exploited it (or tried to). Didn’t he file an objection to the initial appraisal faster than he likely could have read it? Come on… cut your losses already nire. They are bad sports owners, they got played by Belkin… negotiated a settlement behind closed doors and are back in the courtroom again after allowing a lawsuit to be filed that contradicts previous statements. Time to hop out of the car with those guys, they aren’t taking you any place good.

Astro Joe

January 21st, 2011
4:17 pm

Never mind, stay in the car. It’s a car full of arrogant folk who think they are too smart for the common folk. Meanwhile, the common folk are simply shaking their head in sad amazement. nire, my friend, you deserve a front seat in that car. Enjoy the ride.

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
4:20 pm

The funny thing is that filing this suit (especially the way they did) was certain to be a PR catastrophe by ASG. And one way or another, it reveals dishonesty on ASG’s part, because one of the following two things must be true:

1) They were lying before when they said the Thrashers weren’t for sale; or
2) ASG actually never did try to sell the Thrashers…in which the complaint is dishonest.

My guess is that it’s option #2: They will try to square the complaint with their past statements by saying something like “the uncertainty from the lawsuit kept us from even trying to sell the team because we knew we wouldn’t be able to get a good price or there would be concerns about our right to dispose of the team.” But the complaint certainly implies that they were actively trying to sell the team, which would be dishonest if they never were.

But AJ couldn’t resist simply hitting the ASG for being dishonest or being terrible at PR (again). Nope. He had to veer off into talking about whether clients in complex commercial transactions are expected to understand the legal implications of their agreements – a question far more complicated than AJ is equipped to handle, and which is not directly relevant to legal malpractice suits anyway! Oh, it’s like shooting fish in a barrel.

Astro Joe

January 21st, 2011
4:29 pm

Yeah, guilty nire. Heaven knows, you never commit a simimlar mistake… of discussing subjects that are (let’s say miles) away from your working knowledge.

I’m sure I’m the only guy who thought that a signature conveyed understanding of the document. Now I know differently. If you can convince a judge that the subject matter was such that legal counsel was needed to draft the agreement and that said legal counsel was incompetent, then I guess you can file a lawsuit that provides evidence for public consumption that you are a lying organization. OK. That works for me. Viable lawsuit, idiotic decision, embarrassment to the city, incompetent owners. But again, viable lawsuit.

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
4:34 pm

AJ,

Didn’t this whole thing come down to the fact that there were no provisions for how to determine the apprasisor if both parties objected to the initial appraisal?

No.

Wasn’t that essentially the reason for the Maryland trial, to ask a judge to figure out who gets to hire the appraiser since the initial contract didn’t buildin a simple “if, then” statement?

No.

And you know who found that loophole? Belkin… and he exploited it (or tried to).

No. First off, it was Belkin’s lawyers who found it, not Belkin (yes, I know that for sure). Further proving my point that the ultimate outcome of this was more about the quality of the lawyers. The owners on both sides, like most businessmen, only discussed the general outline of the agreement they wanted, and left the haggling over specific terms and preparing for contingencies to the lawyers. Second, Belkin tried to exploit it, but he ultimately FAILED. The contract was so poorly drafted that it was ultimately thrown out completely.

I just showed this discussion to one of my friends who works in corporate transactional law. He agreed that you just don’t get it. You really don’t, AJ. You have absolutely, positively no idea how the world of corporate transactions works. It’s just sad that you actually think that a complex, negotiated commercial transaction like the buy-out is somehow analogous to your credit agreements (which surely were written using form language, the language of which is mostly dictated by statutes protecting consumers and small businessmen), much less that the issue of whether the agreement is binding is determinative of whether the lawyers who drafted and reviewed it on the client’s behalf are liable for doing a terrible job protecting their client’s interests.

Never mind, stay in the car. It’s a car full of arrogant folk who think they are too smart for the common folk.

Yeah, AJ. Because there is nothing arrogant at all in calling people who run a business you know nothing about “incompetent” and “out of their league.”

To you, it’s arrogant for me to take you down a peg for arrogantly talking out of your a$$ in the first place? Well, ok then. Enjoy the back of the car. Just don’t be surprised if people back there get tired of the smell produced from constantly talking out of your butt.

Astro Joe

January 21st, 2011
4:44 pm

nire, you have no idea how okay I am that I don’t understand the role of lawyers in these negotiations. Because it is absolutely inconsequential to the point that the ASG have screwed up. The lawsuit filing has let the genie out of the box that they are liars. One way or the other. They either lied about the Belkin lawsuit not affecting franchise operations or they are lying now to extort money from K&S. Either way, that is not an ownership group that I would choose to defend nor support. The role of the lawyers is so much less important than the role of the ASG in the Atlanta community. That is what makes this laughable (and sad). You are right, congratulations, I am out of my knowledge base when it comes to corporate law. Have an office party regarding my ignorance and my friends and I will share a laugh about your inability to see “the big picture”. But my reputation as a corporate giant on the blog isn’t nearly as important as the ASG’s reputation as honorable business owners deserving the patronage of this community. That is the true point. My reputation on this blog can be tattered from here to eternity… but as a fan of the Hawks, I have to question a lot about the owners based on today’s information. Are you smart enough to get that? It ain’t about me (and honestly, it ain’t about you)… it’s about the integrity of the owners of this sports team.

Astro Joe

January 21st, 2011
5:04 pm

nire, I’m glad that I have entertained you and your office today. You continue to miss the issue in your zeal to debate. The issue is not my insufficient knoweldge of corporate law or the role of lawyers in these types of negotiations. The issue is the intergity of the ASG. I am perfectly fine, in ways that you could probably never understand, with not having all knowledge of everything. But what I do know is that if you own a business that relies on the disposable income of people, then you need to conduct yourself with integrity. Today’s lawsuit filing has lifted the veil off this ownership group. That is the issue. They either lied before or are lying now. This isn’t about my knowledge (or even your all-knowing abilities), it’s about an ownership group that operates in my city, runs my team and has surfaced as a bunch of first-rate liars. Somehow, I think that you missed that. My corporate law knowledge is lacking and so is the integrity of the ASG. Gee, one makes me feel so much worse than the other.

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
5:31 pm

AJ,

I already conceded that the complaint reveals, in one way or another, dishonesty on ASG’s part. Like I said, if you had simply left it at that, this whole discussion would have been 3 posts long. But nope. Instead, you hit them for filing the lawsuit at all and made a number of statements that revealed your unique mix of arrogance and ignorance.

You brought up way, way more issues than their integrity. You’re lying if you’re implying otherwise.

Here’s my hope, that this new lawsuit takes about 1-2 years, with the judge ultimately saying…

“King & Spaulding did not willfully produce a sub-standard product on behalf of the plaintiffs.

(Nevermind that willfulness is not the standard for legal malpractice)

In addition, the plaintiffs had ample opportunity to review the contract and ensure that all loopholes and gaps were cared for prior to the document being final. Lastly, the plaintiffs signed the contract (presumably under no duress), suggesting that they read the agreement and concurred with the details of the document.

(Nevermind that that’s none of that is the issue in legal malpractice suits)

This ruling is based solely on the fact that these are a bunch of dumba$$es who have spent far too much time in our judicial system”.

(Yeah, ok)

That entire post was the start of me having a problem with you. You started to pass legal judgments using assumptions and logic that any lawyer worth a cent would be able to tell is painfully wrong. Then, instead of saying “yeah, ok, I admit that I don’t know anything about the way complex business transactions are negotiated, structured, or interpreted, and I don’t know anything about contract law or legal malpractice law generally” and stopping, you compounded the error by going on talking out of your ass (which must have chronic pain at this point from the workout you give it).

nire, at some point, don’t these guys have to read what their hired lawyers write? When will they learn that lesson? Come on… this is laughable. They are suing because they signed a bad contract (that they paid for) and now they have a lawsuit filed on their behalf that contradicts previous statements they made to the media and customers?

(Already addressed how that’s bull$hite)

Here’s my guess, the ASG will sell everything because they are woefully incompetent and are far too petty to sit in the same room with other owners from across the respective leagues. They are small time, small minded and an embarrassment to this city. They are wealthy sports fans who have no more business running sports teams than many of the not-so-wealthy sports fans on these blogs.

*Yeah, no arrogance there. You can’t say with a straight face that you’re attacking their integrity here. You’re questioning their competence. Since you don’t know jack $h!t about their business, much less anything about the specific conditions in which they have to work, that’s quite arrogant. Yet another example of you talking out of your a$$ and arrogantly passing judgment on things you know nothing about.

And their attempt to bury this lawsuit filing on a Friday afternoon hopefully won’t be easily swept under the fraying infrastructure.

Trust me. The ASG PR people were not involved with the timing of filing this complaint. First off, they aren’t that competent. Second, again, that’s just not how firms and businesses determine when a complaint is filed. In any case, again this is you talking out of your a$$.

They paid for services by K&S which they say led to financial misfortune for them… but isn’t the signee responsible for understanding what they sign? Is that not a basic tenant of any legal agreement? Sure, the fallout is quite unfortunate, but how is it lawsuit material? Don’t they share accountability for signing a flawed document?

Already addressed how this is BS too. Again, talking out of your a$$.

Mistake after mistake after mistake is my opinion. An incompetent set of team owners who likely do a far better job of operating within their original industries but are out of their league in sports management.

See * above.

I’ll have to try that with by creditors then. “I didn’t understand the mumbo-jumbo language in the contract so that’s why I failed to…”

I’m still laughing that I predicted your pathetic, BS, predictable response on this. I knew you’d equate some form contract that you signed with a complex, negotiated commercial contract. @$$ talking at its best.

Didn’t this whole thing come down to the fact that there were no provisions for how to determine the apprasisor if both parties objected to the initial appraisal? Wasn’t that essentially the reason for the Maryland trial, to ask a judge to figure out who gets to hire the appraiser since the initial contract didn’t buildin a simple “if, then” statement? And you know who found that loophole? Belkin… and he exploited it (or tried to). Didn’t he file an objection to the initial appraisal faster than he likely could have read it?

Already addressed that BS too.

They are bad sports owners, they got played by Belkin

Considering that Belkin didn’t win the suit and we don’t know the terms of the settlement, I don’t see how on earth you can draw that conclusion. Oh yeah, that’s right. Because you were talking out of your a$$. Again. And again. And again.

**********************************
So tell me, AJ, if:

The issue is the intergity of the ASG.

…then why did you talk out of your rear end so much about things that had absolutely nothing to do with their integrity? Why did you try to pass judgment on their competence, the merits of their lawsuits, etc?

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
5:33 pm

First off, they aren’t that competent.

Sarcasm there, in case you couldn’t tell

Astro Joe

January 21st, 2011
9:24 pm

nire, you defend these guys like your last name is Levenson.

I didn’t like the idea of suing the lawfirm for something thst I thought they shared responsibility for, a flawed contract. You explained to me in your special way how the lawsuit is indeed viable. I think that essentially sums it up my “extra comments”.

You seem to have far more passion for correcting other bloggers than most. My passion is more pointed to those who have far greater influence over my experience with the Hawks. I’m a passionate fan, you come across as a passionate blogger. I want owners who conduct business the right way, you seem far more concerned with bloggers who conduct business the right way. It creates for sometimes interesting and mostly long debates. You take pride in exposing the lack of knowledge of other bloggers, while most other bloggers tend to “aim” at owners, GMs, coaches and players. We can’t change those that we aim at and guess what, you’re not changing the bloggers.

You can count on my continued pattern of blogging and I’m confident that you won’t change your style. I’ll be wrong, you’ll be right and the ASG will be lying. I won’t lose any sleep on my end, but will stay concerned with a lousy group of owners.

Melvin

January 21st, 2011
9:29 pm

I’m glad I didn’t waste my money by going to this game. Heck, I may bypass attending the Hornets game tomorrow night after watching this heartless effort…

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
9:43 pm

Yeah, AJ. I call them liars and that’s what you say.

You seem to have far more passion for correcting other bloggers than most.

Yes, I do. I love exposing the flaws in people’s arguments and popping the arrogant assumptions that people make.

We can’t change those that we aim at and guess what, you’re not changing the bloggers.

No. But I can expose arrogant fools who talk out of their a$$ for exactly what they are. I don’t expect it to change you. I get satisfaction in seeing how you react when I call you out for talking out of your a$$.

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
9:44 pm

Meanwhile, I’m glad the Aussie Open is on. Because the basketball tonight was not worth watching.

O'Brien

January 21st, 2011
9:44 pm

Hawks have 54 points with 90 seconds left. In the game.

And we are down by 40+ points. At home. After beating Miami in Miami?

Typical hawks. Lose to Detroit by 23, and win in Utah by 23. So up and down. SMH

O'Brien

January 21st, 2011
9:56 pm

For a minute there, I thought this was the 2010 playoffs, and we were playing Orlando…

O'Brien

January 21st, 2011
10:06 pm

I wonder if David McDavid is still interested in buying the Hawks (although I’m sure the ASG does not have the Hawks up for sale either).

As for the ASG, I know nothing about business dealings, contracts, law etc. But the ASG suck at marketing, and they suck at PR.

niremetal

January 21st, 2011
10:16 pm

O’B,

Yup. Unlike the stuff that goes on in boardrooms and back rooms, the PR and marketing is for public consumption (indeed it’s aimed at the general public). We might not have enough information to say what the right type of marketing and PR is, but I think it’s pretty unanimous that what they’ve been doing so far ain’t resonating with the fan base (ie us).