Hawks might be on true verge of Detroit model

Yes, we’re back to that again.

I’m sure that as fans we shared quite a laugh at the idea of the Atlanta Hawks morphing into another version of the multi-faceted Detroit Pistons team that was so potent from ‘02-’03 to ‘06-’07 (and arguably a year longer than that). The first objection would be from a defensive perspective, where the Hawks lack a point guard who can not only guard his own position, but guard many shooting guards as well, as Chauncey Billups used to do in the Motor City. The second objection would be that for all the many positives of Al Horford, he isn’t the beast on defense that Ben Wallace once was (of course, Horford doesn’t “juice”, either), and Josh Smith is no Rasheed Wallace (thank the basketball pantheon). In fact, the Hawks have never played team defense the way that Pistons team did.

But offensively speaking?

Under the tutelage of Larry Drew, the Hawks do seem to be headed in that direction. No longer is the team a collection of talent that routinely bogs down in the ingrained habit of isolation plays. No longer are they automatically sentenced to offensive epic failure if Joe Johnson or a second guard off the bench isn’t able to come out with both guns blazing, so to speak. No longer are they led solely or mostly by the backcourt. This Hawks team can score from a number of places, and finds contributions from a number of players. And, it’s happening in every game.

Growing Up Is Hard To Do

For years, one of the common themes has been about the average age of this Atlanta team. How many times have you heard “they’re young”, “we’re waiting for this one to turn the corner and develop into this or that”, or “how far this team goes depends on the growth and maturity of this one”, and what not? Sooner or later, the age factor got old, even if the majority of this roster has yet to do so. The guys grew up. Yet, growing up and developing are two different things. Much of this team’s success and ability to become as dangerous as they can be has depended on the growth and development of their starting frontcourt members.

I don’t like beating the bones of a deceased equine carcass, but Marvin Williams is still a mystery. Who is this guy? What is he capable of? We know what he gives this team, but we don’t understand why he doesn’t always give it. How far does this team go with him as a starter? What in the devil happened to his three point shot? Josh hits 3s now with far more accuracy and frequency. Josh Smith?! Of course, it’s also not fair to kick a man when he’s down. Marvin’s injury is apparently not an easy one to recover from, and maybe the playing time he’s getting right now simply isn’t helping that fact. Whatever happens from here, are we still wondering if this is a position of strength, or one of weakness? And to be fair, is that Marvin’s fault, or that of the front office, who did not see fit to add another wing player of comparable size to the position, until Joe Johnson became injured?

Marvin isn’t the only enigma on the front line, as Josh Smith continues to blend bafflement with brilliance. Every temper tantrum or bone-headed play makes you think you haven’t seen the last of his immaturity and lack of focus, but each season brings far fewer of those. Is this guy really team captain material? Will he ever be an all-star? Is he one now? Maybe the team captain part isn’t the real question. Maybe the real question is whether or not he can play a leadership role. Smith’s ability to take over a game has risen to new levels as he proves that he is the game’s most dangerous shot blocker. You simply never know where he is going to come from, or when. And, it doesn’t just happen at the rim, as more than one jumpshooter has found himself on the wrong end of a ESPN-like highlight. What’s more, Smith has shown an ability to score from a post-up position, occasionally mixing in drives against slower defenders. The part you never thought was coming….it’s now here. One team after the next is finding out that he can’t be left open all the time on the perimeter. I know, I know. You’re not the only one that sometimes sits around biting your fingernails and wondering if that newly effective jumper of his is simply an anomaly, and that one day you’ll wake up to those awful bricks again. Okay, so maybe that’s just me.

Al Horford is no longer the stiff, machine-like presence in the post that he once was. No, he’s not the Tim Duncan of the East, but his inside/outside game has taken strides. The 18-foot jumper is all but a given, and now the baby jump hooks and quick moves to the basket are becoming more and more frequent. The results? Horford pretty much shares the team lead in scoring at 17 points per game, more or less equaling a struggling (and currently injured) Joe Johnson. He’s doing it from the center position, but there is no denying that playing more minutes at the power forward position is lending towards this trend. Only one question: is Al becoming a power forward? Okay, two: is Josh becoming a small forward? It may not really matter, as the versatility of lineups is the ultimate goal, right? However, the more minutes played in these roles, the more it seems that these guys are getting comfortable with them. It’s doubtful that we’ll see Smith play more at the 3 spot, but the same cannot be said of Al Horford, who seems to be quite comfortable at the 4 spot.

That brings up another set of questions. Will the Hawks morph into a team that plays Horford at center only when he is a a clear advantage at the position, or when he is equal to his opponent in size and strength? Or, will they only move him to the 4 when facing Dwight Howard or another larger/stronger center who has clear advantages on him? Having signed Al Horford to a healthy new extension and publicly (and some say, privately) disavowing any Josh Smith trade rumors, Atlanta is not likely going to bring in any “impact” center types of starting caliber. But, might they want to upgrade from the likes of Jason Collins and/or Zaza Pachulia? If this type of lineup strategy works best for the Hawks when they want to go large, can they get to the East Finals as currently constructed?


How Far Do They Go Without Joe?

As some of you have noted, the Hawks are 4 and 1 without Joe Johnson. Surely this is too small of a sample size to come to any solid conclusion. On the one hand, that’s a great record for a team playing without its best player and leading scorer. On the other hand, only one of those four wins came against a team that has a winning record. So how much does this team really miss him? We’ll find out as the Hawks take on the Spurs this friday, and teams such as Charlotte, Golden State, Oklahoma City, and New Orleans as the month rounds out. The Hawks are known for their roller coaster ways, and yet this team has shown an ability to win on the road that it did not have last season. Is this a fluke or not? We’ll find out.


One way or another, the Hawks look like the Detroit model on paper, at least offensively, and at least when they play according to head coach Larry Drew’s specifications. The offense is more spread out among those who are able to take advantage of it. Here’s a question for you: Is this due more in part to Larry Drew’s scheme, or is it due moreso to the timing of Josh and Al’s development?

169 comments Add your comment


December 9th, 2010
7:16 pm


December 9th, 2010
7:16 pm

Now i can go back and read it!


December 9th, 2010
7:21 pm

Like what we are seeing, as the team needs to mature into their own vs. being dependent on JJ. I think this is a blessing in disguise: the convergence of LD’s offensive philosophy and JJ’s untimely injury is finally forcing the other young nucleus players (Smoove, Horfy) to step up, Marvin notwithstanding.

That said, the better teams will have film on the new alignment w/J-Collins starting, so they can game plan for it, as he is a space-eater not necessarily a points-machine.


December 9th, 2010
7:23 pm

Good Stuff. They don’t preach defense enough to me. Also, the EFFORT has to be there on every play. Granted superstars take plays off, we are not in a position to do that. We are fighting for our respect and trying to get better each day. 100% Effort on defense is the key!!!


December 9th, 2010
7:44 pm

Nice piece, Ray.

As far as your question, I think it’s both LD’s scheme AND their development.

But moreso, their development. There were signs of this on occasion last year, in the games where we truly shared the ball.


December 9th, 2010
7:55 pm

Good stuff, but they will get their butts handed to them in San Antonio!

Tony from Stone Mountain

December 9th, 2010
8:27 pm

A very enjoyable read. Thank you! Big Ray.


December 9th, 2010
9:51 pm

Enter your comments here


December 9th, 2010
10:02 pm

Where would this team be without Bibby’s shooting from deep? He has been the unsung hero thus far. Josh has done what other great NBA players have done and fix the holes in his game. Both he and Al are putting in the work and it is resulting in wins.

I hope that Joe can see that this team can win without him. That way he can take the weight of the world and that contract off of his shoulders and have some fun on the court. He is pressing while not really moving the ball like LD needs. This time in a suit should do him good.


December 9th, 2010
10:39 pm

Great article. Sure the regular season has been tough thus far as these Hawks try to adapt under a NEW coaching system, which we often forget has taken place, but by the time playoffs come along we will be much rewarded, as even though this team may finish with a worse regular season record than last year, they have a chance of going all the way with this new system. Think of the Cleveland Cavs under LeBron as an example of regular season dominance, only to always fall short in the playoffs, due to no real offensive system. LETS GO HAWKS!!


December 9th, 2010
11:51 pm

Marvin Williams is not a MYSTERY!!! He’s a 9 ppg scorer. What’s mysterius about that? Hasn’t improved since 2nd year. Playing well without Joe, but I don’t know how anybody could think we’re better without him. He’s not a franchise player and is overpaid but he is a good player..


December 10th, 2010
12:24 am

Unrestricted Free Agents we should be Targeting for next season:

Tayshaun Prince (SF)
Joel Pryzbilla (C)
Jonas Jerebco (SF)
Patrick Mills (PG)
Dante Cunningham (SF)

Players who we need to be purged of:

Mo Evans
Marvin Williams
Zaza Pachulia
Etan Thomas
Damien Wilkins (he’s nice but we can do better…plus I’m still angry about that 42pts he dropped on us P.S. he never scored like that again in his life he will also be 31 next season AND HE HAS NO OFFENSIVE GAME WHATSOEVER)

Players who need to be retained:

Jamal Crawford
Josh Powell
Jason Collins

PDX is looking to deal. We should send them Marvin for Przbilla right now so that we can use most of the MLE on Tayshaun next season. Then we sign Dante and Jonas (700,000 minimum deals) to replace Mo Evans and Damien Wilkins.
We will be significantly better for it next season.
I guess we can keep Zaza. He is not that bad as a 4th option center off the bench.
More than likely we will need to trade our draft picks away or stash the players overseas. I would rather trade them because I don’t trust Rick Sund with the picks. We would be better off just taking other teams young players (like Jerebko and Cunningham) who are already proven. If you have yet to see these two youngsters play, I assure you, they have more heart and talent than Marvin on his best day.


December 10th, 2010
12:37 am

Nice article Big Ray as always.

Now I’m trying to figure out who stole my name that posted first?????

Big Daddy

December 10th, 2010
3:54 am

First, let me say that I like your article. However, could you say in its present configuration that the Hawks are more like the championship Seattle team more than Detroit? With DJ, CJ, JJ, Marvin Webster, Jack Sigma and Freddy Brown coming off the bench. That team seems to match up better than what is on our floor now except put Joe in place of Marvin and keep Smoove in the 3 spot.

LD’s offense seems to be catching on with the players and each is getting use to handling the ball and making plays. Joe’s injury could be a blessing in disguise as the guys learn to play the offense without him to fall back on. When he gets back and gets in a rhythm and is able to hit his shot. This team could really be dangerous.

I have heard a number of the beat writers from Schultz to MC to Sekou talk about how Josh hits those jump shots in practice but not in the game. Well, it appears he is getting to the point where he is hitting them in the game. If he becomes consistent he could be great in the 3 spot. The downside about that is his interior presence with blocked shots (sorry, but Al doesn’t come close), his rebounding and, less face it, he is the most intimidating interior force we have had since Dikemebe.

I have seen Joe take over a game too many times to think we are better off without him. My problem, as it seems with everyone else, is during the playoffs he seems to be stifled by the defenses that are thrown at him and either the coaches can’t make adjustments for him or he doesn’t make the effort to find a way to get separation enough to get off his shot. Maybe in this new offense if the others can stretch the defense so they can’t just make a game plan to stop him, it will free him up enough to be who we have seen during the regular season the last few years.


December 10th, 2010
5:42 am

Big Ray: thanks for the thoughtful analysis – it is interesting to watch and see what this group is doing with adapting a new system. I confess to panicking a few weeks back when it looked like the wheels were about to fall off.

I’m most curious to see if Josh will continue to progress in terms of his in-game decisions and playing within LD’s system (is one “come to Jesus” moment going to be enough?).

And I couldn’t agree more about upgrading personnel, especially in the middle — all blog posts lead back to Sund and the ASG making changes. ;)


December 10th, 2010
5:54 am

Good article. This is a team that could finish 3rd of 8th in the East and neither would surprise me.


December 10th, 2010
8:01 am

Big Ray, I’m glad to see someone tell it like it is for a change. However, we not only need a pg for the reasons that you mention but more importantly we need a pg with leadership abilities. That’s why I keep lobbying for Kirk Hinrich. This young man has the size(6′4) to guard the 1 and 2. The pg is the brain and the most important position on the team. The center is the 2nd most important position. However, there is not a true center in the league that we can afford to sign because our enept gm broke the bank by signing a non-superstar(JJ) to a long term contract.

Speaking of Marvin William. I will never forget that day when Billy Knight took MW as the #2 overall pick in the 2005 nba draft. I was delivering some freight in the Dallas area when they annouce that the Hawks had taken MW. Let me tell you…….I almost passed out! Words can’t describe how I felt. MARVIN WILLIAM couldn’t even start for a college so what is Knight’s thinking on this pick? IS THIS A JOKE! Man I almost CRIED! Can you imagine where this team would be if this organization understood how important a true pg and a true center are to their team? We would have Pau Gasol and possibly Chris Paul.


December 10th, 2010
8:43 am

Big Ray,
Enjoyed the blog. To emulate Detroit suggests young guys still have upside, esp in defensive end. I think they do.

On the enigma that is Marvin. Even playing the 2, he is the 4th scoring option behind Bibbs, Horf, and JS. After JJ came in, he slipped to this 4th option and rarely breaks out. Fans take this as poor performance. I suggest something the box score doesn’t: He never complains whether he plays 2, 3, or 4. How many cats in NBA CAN play 3 positions? He defends, and at 25 has upside. Many will never forgive him for NOT being Chris Paul. You can bet there are a lot of GM’s who would like to steal a 3 position starter who defends without complaining, for a sack of beans…..

If we trade him…it better be to someone on the west coast or he will haunt us and those who hated us not taking CP will have something else to whine about and they certainly will….


December 10th, 2010
8:58 am

Yes, this speaks to the NBA elitist attitude that if you’re not a STAR, you’re a BUM. All stats; no team. Well, MW is a team player and is worth much more than most fan bloggers realize.


December 10th, 2010
9:28 am

All I can think about is Al Horford dunking on Duncan last year. Those were good times.

But to add to the conversation, I think what’s frustrting about MW is that he can ball, but he’s not consistent. It’s the worst thing in the world if you’re a GM, because you have this guy who has the potential to be a top 10 small forward, but he only plays like it every 3rd game. And you just keep hoping that one day it’ll all come together. When is it time to cut your losses?


December 10th, 2010
9:46 am

“But to add to the conversation, I think what’s frustrting about MW is that he can ball, but he’s not consistent. It’s the worst thing in the world if you’re a GM, because you have this guy who has the potential to be a top 10 small forward, but he only plays like it every 3rd game. And you just keep hoping that one day it’ll all come together. When is it time to cut your losses?”

Actually, those types of guys make great bench players.


December 10th, 2010
10:06 am


This is Marvin’s sixth year in the league, and he has been a starter since year 2. And unlike Josh (who seems to improve one area of his game every season), we have yet to see any consistent improvement from Marvin (except one good season of making 3’s).

So when will his “upside” become reality, especially since he continues to be the 4th or 5th option on this team?

I will agree that he defends his position well, but it’s not like he is a lock down defender (like Artest, Bowen, Prince and thos guys used to be).

And despite Marvin’s versatility, I think you would be hard pressed to find a GM who would pay him $7.5 mil per year.

He seems like a good guy, and a very good team player. And its not his fault he was picked #2 over CP3 and Deron, and its not his fault he was given 5 years, $37.5 mil.

But the point still remains that he is very inconsistent, and is capable of producing more than he is.


December 10th, 2010
10:14 am

O’Brien, I agree MW is capable of producing more….HOWEVER, on THIS team with him the 4th option, it’s NOT going to happen. Not to say that’s a bad thing…just how the team is constructed.

If we flounder come playoffs, a trade might be a good idea. But, MW is worth more than most think.


December 10th, 2010
10:30 am

TThis team is on a good path… I thought bibby might have been washed up… but he’s a good point guard for this team… josh smith is a small forward now… he can shoot good enough to make shots when he is open, he knows to pass the ball, and he opens the floor and makes people play honest offensively and defensively .. al horford is a natural powerforward.. and his mid range jumper is unbelievably accurate… but Collins is a better backup center then zaza…. I don’t know if anybody notice, but when he gets it.. he is just like Marvin, some times show brilliants, but most of the time, red start catching up if he is in..

But this the best thing too do where you can win a title this year
Tell the Denver nuggets, you can have zaza, Marvin Williams, and mo even and two future first round picks for carmelo Anthony.. that way they get two small forwards help take melo spot.. and a center until they centers come off their injuries.
Starting five be
Mike bibby
Joe Johnson
Carmelo Anthony
Josh smith
Al horford

Jason Collins come off the bench quickly when its time to play bigger teams ..
If u can’t get a great center, you might as well let your offense be your defense in a massive over welming scoring offense. Especially with jamal and Jordan Crawford coming off the bench lighting it up too…

If that won’t work, you still trade Marvin, evens and zaza, for either javele mcgee , or al Jefferson

Al Jefferson is a scoring center but he is 6-10, 280… he is strong too… he is only 25 so he would be worth the trade.. and I believe Marvin will work in Utah offense because he is athletic and can run the court with d Williams… and zaza can help do the same for that team

Mcgee is a 7 footer , and is only 22 years old… u probably could only trade Marvin and zaza… but he can guard centers good enough and still be a offensive threat

Josh smith would stay all small forward, al would be a power forward.. and one of those centers would be the starting center for good…

And start Jordan Crawford until Joe come back, I believe its enough defense to make up for him in this line up!!!

It might be a dream but they gotta make a move… this offense Larry drew has can work, but honestly, if Marvin can’t take a bench role, he has to go!!!


December 10th, 2010
11:26 am

The Biggest Difference.

I don’t think this is Mike woodson’s team anymore. I think our defensive effort tonight will prove that fact. I think LD is now coaching to defense and the Hawks are benefitting.

The defensive effort will prove how much we have improved as a team.

Question.. If the Hawks aren’t an elite team, how are they serviving without their best players? Because? The national consensus is that with Joe they are average, so how we getting victories on the road?

Astro Joe

December 10th, 2010
1:26 pm

Marvin averages the 6th most FGAs on the Hawks. I wonder how many guys who average the 6th most FGAs on their team still produce close to 10 PPG? Someone has to shoot the ball the 6th most times on their team, right? On the Mavs, it is Jose Barea who averages less than 8 PPG. Same for Nate Robinson with the Celtics (less than 8). On the Thunder, it is Harden who averages 9 PPG and shoots less than 36% from the field (Marvin is at 46%). On tonight’s opponent, Dajuan Blair is 6th in FGAs and averages less than 7 PPG.

My point? Someone on every team ranks 6th on FGAs and our guy likely has one of the highest scoring averages, a very respectable FG%, plays above average defense and never whines, sulks, plays selfishly, hogs the ball or makes statements about playing out of position (even now when he clearly isn’t playing his “natural” position in LD’s big line-up).


December 10th, 2010
1:32 pm

The Detroit model, as Big Ray opined, is TEAM oriented, defensive minded. MW fits that to a T.

Thanks AJ for the stats…..speaks to what I’ve said about 4th option….he does well with what he gets. He’s no Magic Johnson, but he can start 3 positions and could fill in at center if necessary. That’s a TEAM guy. Plus, no whining.


December 10th, 2010
2:00 pm

Folks I would love to see Carmelo here or Al Jefferson but they are not coming…. It just ain’t gonna happen. Carmelo WILL be a Knick (or the Hawks coould help him be a Clip) and Al Jefferson will be right where he is because he is productive as hell and well priced.

Now the realistic move the Hawks could make would be Jamal Crawford and ZAZA for Chris Kaman from the Clips. That would give the ever cap friendly Clips more cap space with Jamal’s expiring contract and a semi legit back-up to up and comer Deandre Jordan. They could possibly land Carmelo to go along with 25 pt scorer Eric Gordon and Beast Blake Griffin.

The Hawks slide Marvin into a back-up SF and SG role and Kaman, Al, and Josh max their advantages. NOBODY wants Marvin’s contract so we swallow it and move aead with a competitive and deep team.

PG – Bibby/Teague
SG – JJ / JC2 / Marvin
SF – Smooth/ Marvin
PF – Al / Powell
C – Kaman / Collins

As close as we get to a contender that I see.


December 10th, 2010
2:04 pm

Great stat and point Astro Joe.

I guess we all wonder why doesn’t Marvin shoot the dang ball more but as you pointed out…at least he is tops in the league when comparing Apples to Apples.


December 10th, 2010
2:22 pm

since when did Ben Juice? Way to totally smear a player without any facts at all as far as anyone knows he has never tested positive.


December 10th, 2010
2:34 pm

CajunStorm, I like Kaman and that trade looks good. The only problem I have is turning JC2 loose without a replacement point for Bibby. We still don’t know if Teague will find his dog….

Astro Joe

December 10th, 2010
2:38 pm

Thanks guys. I just pulled a sample from some of the better or highly regarded teams in the league. There could be some other player who gets the 6th most shot attempts that produces more than Marvin, but it isn’t likely to be significant. I get disappointed by Marvin also, but at the end of the day, he’s a very good teammate who helps more than he hurts. And now that he is playing SG, I wouldn’t look for him to score more. For example, he’ll be chasing Ginobli all over the arena tonight and that doesn’t sound like something that a guy with Marvin’s body type needs to do. His legs will likely be shot by the end of the first quarter.


December 10th, 2010
2:44 pm

wordsmithtom, AJ,

There are 2 main reasons why Marvin is criticized the way he does, but neither of them are his fault.

1) Drafted #2;
2) Makes $7.5 mil annually. Is there any other 6th option on a team (unless its the Lakers, Boston etc) making $7.5 mil?

And its not just about ppg. It’s also about making a key play at the right time, and Marvin has not done as often as most people think he can or should.

Big Ray,

Good stuff as always. It will be interesting to see if and how our style of play changes when JJ comes back.

One difference with the Detroit model, is they were coached by a HOF. Also, I need to see the Hawks beat more good teams.

I’m not concerned if we lose tonight, but I expect focus, execution, effort, and a close game.

Go Hawks.


December 10th, 2010
3:51 pm

Marvin is a team guy, but he has no ambition See Ron Artest:

6:38 p.m. — I ask Jackson why he’s playing Artest fewer minutes this season. “I’m not,” Jackson says. “Ron overheard [substitute forward Matt Barnes] asking me for more playing time, so he’s been raising his hand just to get Matt more time.”

Why, Ron Ron?

“Because we’re a team. I just want to win another title. Who cares about minutes? Who cares about points?”

Uh, everybody else?


7:41 p.m. — Tonight’s assignment: Check Tyreke Evans, the Kings’ best player by far. Enter Artest Logic.

“I overtrained swimming this week,” he said on the way to the game. “So I’m going to be really tired tonight. Which is kinda how I like it.”


“I can be too strong for some small forwards, so they don’t want to go at me, so I get bored. So sometimes I overtrain on purpose before a game just to see if I can lock a guy down with only half my energy.”


The Truth

December 10th, 2010
3:57 pm

Great article Big Ray, it was a joy to read. I have one thing to add to the list that compares the similarities of these Hawks to the Pistons of the mid-2000’s. How about the fact they’re FINALLY no longer playing down talent wise. No long are they playing to their competition and instead are finally embarrassing some of the lesser talented teams…just like the Pistons did on their march to the title.

Chris E

December 10th, 2010
4:07 pm

I like the positivity finally about the Hawks and would like to add my 2 cents. I think JJ’s absence is a blessing in disguise. Our younger developing players have a chance to play more free and learn LD’s system better. People forget how effective JJ was in Phoenix playing in a real offensive system like the Hawks have now. I implore all to check JJ’s stats relative to other sg in the league. He is easily in the top 5. Woodson’s system is what has limited JJ and now he has to readjust. He is not as quick and explosive as DWade or Lebron but he is a solid and consistent scorer who is very hard to defend one on one. He will fare much better in the playoffs this year because of the new system and the multiple options we have now on the Hawks. With Horford and Josh playing better offensively teams will not be able to double team JJ as they have done in the past.

As for Marvin, I think he can be better but he to is a solid player and has had limited options. He to me would be better suited coming off the bench. This may make him more aggressive and enhance the Hawks bench scoring with JC1. Collins presence in the middle is great for the Hawks because it allows Horford and JOsh to dominate the 3 & 4. I have always said the Hawks don’t need much of a Center and maybe Collins is enough for now.

I like the Hawks chances this year!!!!!!!

Astro Joe

December 10th, 2010
4:13 pm

OB, I know why he is criticized, I’m not confused by the issue. Here’s the thing about the $7.5M, he is 5th in annual salary (I’m factoring in Al’s extension). He makes maybe $1.5M more than Bibby. So his salary ranking and shot-attempt ranking is pretty proportionate, right? Big plays from the 6th option and 5th highest salaried player… yeah, that would be nice, but relatively speaking…


December 10th, 2010
4:30 pm

And of course, Marvin gives us about 1 trillion times more defense than our third-highest paid player (Jamal) and about 100 billion times more than Bibby, which doesn’t show up on the stats. I mean, that’s not saying much, because half-digested plankton gives you about 10 billion more defense than Jamal and 1 billion times more than Bibby. Just sayin…


December 10th, 2010
6:19 pm

I wonder if Marvin reads these blogs!!!


December 10th, 2010
6:20 pm


December 10th, 2010
6:22 pm

cuz all blogs end up being about him….. and zaza


December 10th, 2010
6:27 pm

Jerebko is out with an Achilles injury So I took him out of the deal:



December 10th, 2010
6:34 pm

I think Marvin does read these blogs because every time I blast him, he proves me wrong. It is no doubt he is a very nice guy, but a lot of people are defending him saying it is not his fault. Yes, it is not his fault being the number 2 pick, but it is HIS FAULT for not improving his game! When your stats are worse your 6th year than your rookie year show a clear lack of development. He is the highest drafted player on the team and HE has to work on his game


December 10th, 2010
8:29 pm

Duncan is craftier than Lopez or D-12. It’ll be interesting to see how Twin handles him.

Big Ray

December 10th, 2010
8:34 pm

Tony from Stone Mountain ,

Thankyou sir!

Sautee ,

I would be inclined to agree with that assessment.

Big Ray

December 10th, 2010
8:36 pm

Niremetal ,

Twin? Handle Duncan? I’ve never known you to purposely type a sentence with such blatant subject and verb disagreement. ;)


I think I wrote about a few other guys on the team as well, and um….one line on Zaza (which he had to share with Jason Collins). I take it your sick of talking about guys that actually play for the Hawks?


December 10th, 2010
8:38 pm

Oh, and in terms of bottom-line box score statistics, Deke never did better than he did in his rookie and second years. I’ll leave it at that.

Big Ray

December 10th, 2010
8:38 pm

Pound 4 pound ,

You bring up a good point. Bibby has been lights out from beyond the arc. Fact is, last I looked, he was leading the league in 3 point percentage. Is he re-energized? I don’t think so. I think he’s finally playing in an offensive system that truly takes advantage of what he has to offer.

Big Ray

December 10th, 2010
8:46 pm

Everett ,

since when did Ben Juice? Way to totally smear a player without any facts at all as far as anyone knows he has never tested positive.


1) It’s called speculation when I say that Ben Wallace was on steroids. It’s called misrepresentation when I didn’t say it, and you accuse me of smearing him.

2) That could just as easily be interpreted that Al Horford would have to “juice up” to be as much of a beast on the court as Ben Wallace once was. Or were you simply stuck on me accusing Wallace of juicing?

3) As far as anyone knows, a lot of baseball players didn’t do steroids and other “enhancement” drugs. They still were called into questioning. As far as anyone knows, Wallace never tested positive. As far as anyone knows, Wallace was never tested. Or do you have the facts on that? Just curious.

4) I do hope you got something more out of this article than the comment that Horford isn’t as physically aggressive and dominant as Wallace once was.

5) I am still waiting for a perfectly sound bit of reasoning that explains why Wallace left Detroit and turned into a mere shadow of the guy he used to be the very next season as he signed for 5 years and 60 million with Chicago. Nope, I still didn’t say he was juicing.


December 10th, 2010
9:03 pm

Why Horford is defending George Hill again?