Hawks look for that first credible win

The Indiana Pacers are no longer a pushover, but until they become a playoff team, the Hawks are going to have to settle for having another game with an asterisk beside it. On Friday night, they get another chance to prove that they can beat the good teams, too. The good news is that the Hawks will be at home, and the Dallas Mavericks will be coming off of what will likely be a hard fought game against the Chicago Bulls. Well, that should be good news. If the Hawks win, would this one come with another asterisk?

 

Offense Switches Gears

The offensive game plan that Larry Drew instituted has coincided with the growth of some of the Hawks’ younger players, while changing the game of others. Reigning Sixth Man of the Year Jamal Crawford finds himself in a different position from last year. Oh sure, he’s still the top offensive sub off the bench, but no longer is he second on the team in scoring and shot attempts. Fact is, Jamal is now fourth in both categories, giving way to big men Josh Smith and Al Horford. Things are a little different for Joe Johnson as well, what with his scoring average dipping to just over 19 points per game, though arguably his struggles from the field are a major factor. Still, what once seemed like the only sword Atlanta could live or die by, has become a strong point that finally has adequate support. Remember the days when we talked about having credible offensive threats alongside Joe Johnson? Well, it seems those days are here.

Al Horford has vaulted to the position of second leading scorer for the team, averaging exactly one bucket less per contest than Joe Johnson. It’s not just the increased shot attempts that has brought this about. It’s also the way Horford has worked on his game. Still lacking a couple of sure-fire post moves, Horford has enough in his arsenal to get some baskets on the block, but it’s his perimeter shot that does so much damage these days. Not only can Al hit it on occasion, he can hit it several times in a row before ducking back in for a running baby hook or a baseline turnaround shot. The best part? How about a 63.7 field goal percentage? All of that in just a tad over 31 minutes a game, and you have to wonder what this guy will do if he gets to play 35 per night.

Josh Smith’s game has also taken on a transformation. While he may still have maddening moments where he tries to do too much, Smith has managed to improve areas that seemed all but lost last season. Believe it or not, the man’s shooting stroke has improved, even if we still think we’re daydreaming after 12 games. The unexpected prowess from beyond the arc notwithstanding, Josh looks like he actually worked hard on that part of his game. Here’s the part that flies under the radar, however: free throws. That’s right, after stinking it up from the charity stripe last season, smith is now right back up under 70%, where he belongs. It could get better from here. But for now, we get to watch him shoot a good percentage from the field, and hope that this never stops. Is Josh’s jumpshot legit, or is it just a mirage?

Either way, the Hawks aren’t one-dimensional on offense anymore, and they no longer are front-court challenged when it comes to bonafide scoring. Between the two, the Hawks might just have three all-stars at this season’s half way point. You never know.

 

HAWKS VS. MAVS

Dallas has always been dangerous, and like Atlanta in recent years, they’re good for an early season run. We know who all of the usual suspects are. So much is possible with the cerebral Jason Kidd in the game. Dirk Nowitzki is going to score (and rebound). Jason Terry is a dangerous super sub who can shoot his team to a win. Juan Barea is anathema to any team that has trouble keeping up with quick little point guards. But what about some of the newer faces on the squad? Shawn Marion and Caron Butler have seen better days, what with both of them struggling from the deep perimeter. However, neither guy can be slept on completely. Here’s where the Mavs differ the most, though – in the post. Gone is the apathetic Eric Dampier. In his place is Tyson Chandler, who just happens to be backed up by Brendan Haywood.

There’s the rub. If the Mavs want to, they can go pretty big against us. We’ll be looking at height all night long. Of course, the Atlanta advantage is in speed and full court capability. If the Hawks can get out and run, they’ll give the Mavs fits. The only thing is, if you want to run, you have to rebound on the defensive end. If you want to rebound, you have to play defense (or hope the other team misses a lot of shots). Naturally, this is two areas the Hawks are having trouble in. Defend and rebound, and the Mavs will leave the Highlight Factory with a loss. Fail to do so, and we could be looking at a double digit loss.

Matchups to Watch

Will Larry Drew try to match size with size? Let’s assume he’ll put his five best guys on the floor to start things off, then go from there. So…..

Horford vs. Chandler – Look for Al to draw Tyson Chandler out with his jumper, and see if Nowitzki gets switched onto him. If not, Horford will torch the Mavs as long as his shot is on. On the other end of the floor, Horford won’t have much trouble denying Chandler position in the post, but he’ll have to be careful of quick dump-off passes from the Dallas guards.

Jose Juan Barea vs. Jeff Teague – the Teague watch continues! The second year pg will get his chance to continue proving that he’s a viable option off the bench as he goes up against the Dallas slickster, who has caused the Hawks enough grief in the past. Teague has the speed and on ball tenacity to stay with Barea. But will he have the savvy to stay out of foul trouble?

Josh Smith vs…..?

How will Dallas guard Smith, particularly if they start getting burned by Horford’s 18 foot jumper? Brendan Haywood is too slow, and really so it Chandler (though he’s quicker and a better leaper than Haywood). The Mavs won’t want Nowitzki in foul trouble, and neither Shawn Marion nor Caron Butler have the size and strength. This could be a big key to the game, as Dallas will have to choose which Hawks big man to clamp down on. The Mavs say they have been winning with defense. The Hawks will challenge that idea.

 

What are YOUR keys to the game?

218 comments Add your comment

Avery

November 20th, 2010
12:27 am

Will be at the game, go hawks.

Avery

November 20th, 2010
12:28 am

And my key to the game is not falling over my chair into the court with my thunderstick.

doc

November 20th, 2010
1:09 am

durn big ray after reading this i am confident of a victory whereas after you said what you did about the pacers i was shaking in my shoes. i think the real keys are what their guards are able to do to ours. jason kidd usually torches us with his guile and terry always seems to rub it in that he came to play here and was sent packing. who will stop dirk, is the final key to the game?

the guys need to break the ice against the better teams. last year they performed pretty well against the better teams. i dont see that inclination as yet. i dont want to see boston after another home loss, for sure.

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bjrufino

November 20th, 2010
4:30 am

consistency is the key, the hawks need to be commited for 48 minutes, less turnovers, joe needs 25 points or more, and jamal 15-20, mike need to hit the 3 in every quarter, Al, Josh and Marvin needs to rebound

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NCBravesFan

November 20th, 2010
7:36 am

My (very) uneducated guess is the well-rested Hawks will score a W on the Mavs tonight. As for the asterisk issue – a win is a win. Take ‘em when you can get ‘em.

It’s early yet, but the season appears to be headed in a reasonably good direction. The progress Big Ray has laid out here is being offset by the lack of perimeter D.

LD appears to be doing a really good job with what he has – how far this team can get next spring would seem to have a lot more to do with what Sund does (or doesn’t do – which as we know is always an option) in the next several weeks.

JT0 developing his game more fully over time would also help greatly.

Ray

November 20th, 2010
7:58 am

The two players I’m still worried about at JT and Marvin both are showing flashes, but I’d like it if we got more out of those two, but that does take time.

Jamal has to go though I can say that for sure he’s a great player, but I swear when he gets on the floor the offense comes to a halt.

MD

November 20th, 2010
8:54 am

The Hawks are Garbage!!! Stop supporting these Bums,you already know the outcome for this season.Hawks lose to Chicago or Orlando in second round playoff series 4-0..dont waste ur time……

niremetal

November 20th, 2010
10:13 am

MannyT

November 20th, 2010
12:23 pm

Ray, I like the game analysis. The next 2 games should be very interesting. I hope the crowd shows up to support the Hawks.

I think the underlying key to the game is foul trouble. The team in more foul trouble loses.

W/o foul problems, I think the Hawks can pull it out b/c Chandler doesn’t do much on offense to threaten the Hawks. (HIs biggest offensive attack this season was taking 7 shots. He averages more rebounds per game than points.)

The minor game key, LD needs to stay off the court when the ball is in play…especially if J. Kidd sees him. 8-O

Let’s go Hawks.

O'Brien

November 20th, 2010
12:51 pm

Hawks have not played since Tuesday night. Meanwhile, Mavericks played a tough game that went down to the wire against the Bulls last night.

Hawks should be fresh, Mavericks should be tired. I expect an energetic Hawks team to show up tonight. No excuses.

As for the game, one question is, who guards Dirk? If Josh is on him, he needs to be careful not to get into foul trouble.

I think Teague and Bibby will have their hands full tonight, And Jamal will have his hands full on defense.

I think we should play through Al and Josh early, and see how it goes. If hawks are hitting their shots, we whould win this game.

O'Brien

November 20th, 2010
12:54 pm

In other news, From espn.com;

The New Orleans Hornets and Toronto Raptors are in serious discussions on a five-player trade that would send Peja Stojakovic and Jerryd Bayless to the Raptors for Jarrett Jack, David Andersen and Marcus Banks, a source told ESPN.com Saturday..

Mz. Hawkdafied

November 20th, 2010
2:39 pm

“The minor game key, LD needs to stay off the court when the ball is in play…especially if J. Kidd sees him.”-Manny T

I agree. LOL!

Defend home court and get that first “credible win”. Win pretty, ugly, whatever it takes. Go Hawks!

The Mavericks disrespected our house with that weird Jason Kidd and Mike Woodson situation. Make them pay for that shid with a win.

Hawks Fan In New Orleans

November 20th, 2010
3:42 pm

I expect JJ to begin breaking out of his offensive doldrums tonight. If he continues to share with the front court and they continue to knock down, we should come out with victory. Crawford versus Terry should be interesting.

ICECOLD

November 20th, 2010
5:37 pm

ICECOLD

November 20th, 2010
5:38 pm

Blast

November 20th, 2010
6:19 pm

Big Ray, Nice analysis as usual.

The one that stuck out to and nobody picked up was the part about the offense grinding to a halt when Jamal comes in, especially if he is playing point. Jamal is still stuck on the iso play, and you can tell. He hasn’t quite bought into the new offense yet, and it’s showing in his game. Even Joe is passing the ball and moving better, while Jamal still dribble and dribble on the perimeter. He is passing well, though.

Sunday night is gonna be wild. Hawks MUST win that game, no excuses. Defend, rebound, and move the ball means a W.

Horford is playing at a high level, and it’s beautiful to see. Leads the league in field goal %. That is huge!

Go HAwks!!!

O'Brien

November 20th, 2010
6:31 pm

Hawks need to win tonight. Because if they lose this game, they will be playing Boston on tired legs tomorrow, and it could easily turn into a 2 game losing streak. Plus Boston is coming off a loss at home to OKC, so they will be fired up and ready.

Blast,

Not only does the offense grind to a halt more often with Jamal, his defense is horrible.

Plus when he is the game, Teague defers to him a lot, and thats not good either.

I still think the Hawks need to trade Jamal for improvement in other areas.

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
6:50 pm

Avery ,

I wish you much success. :)

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
6:54 pm

Doc ,

That does seem to be the problem. I remember JJ saying he was not worried about us getting up for the big games, but rather the small ones. For some reason, that’s been backwards so far this season, despite some good competitive efforts against Orlando and Phoenix. Hope to break that ice tonight…

Ray ,

You’re not the only one to make this comment. Others feel the same way about Jamal. It’s not that the offense grinds to a halt, it’s that it does so when he goes into ISO mode. This is why it is imperative that Teague take over the second unit. He can run it, but he has to believe that first. Or maybe he doesn’t want to run it? I don’t know. He looked like he did against Indy. We’ll see how he does tonight.

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
6:59 pm

MannyT ,

Thanks! I agree on the foul trouble, as well.

Blast ,

Appreciate it! Hopefully these guys come off of their break pumped up and ready to go. Dallas is coming off of quite a tussle with Chicago. The Bulls won. Key stat – Dallas 34 rebounds, Chicago 59.

Gibson and Noah combined for 35 rebounds by themselves. That’s insane. Now….what could Smith and Horford do if properly rested, motivated, etc? Add Marvin to that mix…

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
7:03 pm

O’brien ,

Interesting trade. Does that make the Hornets better? I think so, though Marcus Banks figures to be trade fodder. He’s been on so many teams now, unable to stick anywhere really. Speaking of which, Jerryd Bayless a journeyman already ? Whatever happened to being a highly touted first round draft prospect….

The way I see it, the Hornets rid themselves of Peja and that contract (which I could have sworn was about to expire in a year). And, they pick up a viable backup who can also play alongside Paul if/when necessary, something they lost in Darren Collison. Anderson gives them a different kind of frontcourt player who can hit from the outside. I imagine the Raptors will give Bayless a shot at a regular rotation role, but Peja has to be an expiring contract. Otherwise, I don’t see much value in him these days.

Blast

November 20th, 2010
7:08 pm

Just found out game was tonight! Gosh!

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
7:09 pm

Man…..Blake Griffin is for real….

O'Brien

November 20th, 2010
8:29 pm

Ray,

I think you’re right. Peja’s contract is expiring. So the Hornets traded an expiring $14 mil contract in an attempt to make the team better (although Marcus Banks is expiring, his salary is half of Peja’s, if I’m not mistaken?

As for the game tonight, Josh looking good so far.

As for marvin, once again he is the first one out of the game again. Jamal is averaging 29 mpg, and thats just too many minutes. But with Marvin being Marvin, he is out of the game quickly.

lukas

November 20th, 2010
9:04 pm

Man, Sund needs to shake things quickly. This team’s flaws are too much for LD or a couple of tough-minded players to overcome. They lose the games from the lockeroom, and they don’t give a damn about it. Unable to defeat playoff teams? bad bad sign!!

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
9:14 pm

Ugh. Hawks are a hot mess right now. So is the officiating. Mavs with only three fouls. Geez, that is such BS.

We’re getting our cans kicked on the boards and it’s Shawn Marion who is doing most of the damage.

Marvin has made himself invisible again. After the time off and limited minutes, I’m hesitant to chalk this one up to him trying to get back into the groove after injury. He’s proving to be just plain useless.

Josh Smith and Mike Bibby are doing it all for us on offense.

Horford is all but alone on the boards (Smith has 4, the rest of the team has a total of 3).

Outside of Crawford’s 4 assists, the bench is giving us absolutely nothing.

I don’t suppose it would hurt to put the rookie in, would it? Nobody else seems to be able to hit a shot or penetrate.

The Mavs are killing us with their zone defense, and we’re not reacting well to it.

Sigh …..

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
9:18 pm

Lukas ,

I sure hope Sund has some ideas in mind. I sure hope Michael Gearon is amenable to them. Otherwise, watch us limp past the trade deadline talking about our “core.”

O’brien ,

I have the worst time watching Marvin do stuff like this. Dude gets injured, and it’s like he takes forever to get back into any sort of form. There’s no excuse now, though. He is better fit for Larry Drew’s offensive scheme, and even then….that has nothing to do with rebounding and defending, neither of which Marvin is doing. I’m totally disgusted and tired of his lackluster efforts.

Melvin

November 20th, 2010
9:34 pm

When will Josh understand he can’t play off of Dirk?????

lukas

November 20th, 2010
9:36 pm

Big Ray,

I’m ready to try anything, including trading Marvin for a playstation. The sad thing is that this team has 3 huge holes (PG, SF, bench) and sund can’t/won’t address all of them by the trade deadline.

Melvin

November 20th, 2010
9:37 pm

A early Jordan sighting. Did LD lose confidence in Teague?

Melvin

November 20th, 2010
9:39 pm

I’m convince, it may be time to trade Jamal….

lukas

November 20th, 2010
9:41 pm

Well Big Ray, there you go: the rookie!!

lukas

November 20th, 2010
9:43 pm

Melvin,

I am noticing that. LD is getting frustrated with Teague’s Marvinness.

Melvin

November 20th, 2010
9:45 pm

lukas,

I think you are right… If that’s the case, then lets trade him to SacTown for Jason Thompson…

lukas

November 20th, 2010
9:49 pm

Not yet, Teague maybe is useless but is the only thing close to a PG we have besides Bibby.

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
9:50 pm

Ha! Play that kid some MORE! He looks so natural out there. I don’t wish to bag on Teague at all, and they are playing different positions, but there is NO doubt to the confidence and ability of Jordan Crawford. He didn’t play outside the flow of the offense at all, but he also didn’t hesitate when he found himself by himself, with the shot clock running down. Makes a perfectly natural play against Nowitzki, putting himself out of reach and getting his shot off.

PLAY HIM SOME MORE!

Melvin

November 20th, 2010
9:50 pm

About time Marvin showed up… Lets go Marvin…

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
9:51 pm

Man! Would you look at him! He doesn’t even get to sniff the court for days, then comes in and BANG!

Whooeeee!

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
9:52 pm

Lukas ,

I’ll take a playstation 3 with two wireless controllers and Call of Duty: Black Ops. How’s that deal sound? ;)

O'Brien

November 20th, 2010
9:57 pm

Big Ray,

All the more reasons why I think Rick can trade Jamal. Sure, he is averaging 14 pts in 29 minutes, but he does not mesh with the offense, his defense is bad, and Jordan has earned more minutes.

Al with 16 boards tonight. A beast on the boards. And Marvin finally makes a big shot.

Hawks have clawed their way back, but do they have enough to win.

niremetal

November 20th, 2010
9:58 pm

Trade Jamal. Now.

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
10:00 pm

O’brien, Nire ,

I hear ya.

How about Al’s stat line? 6-7 from the field, 12 points, 16 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 blocks. Holy crap….if that ain’t an all-star, I don’t know what is. Now can we get him the ball more?

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
10:01 pm

I don’t know if we have what it takes to finish this off. Gotta get more stops, which we have had trouble with all night.

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
10:02 pm

Heh…I like this. Drew’s not afraid to run with the rookie for a little while down the stretch.

Melvin

November 20th, 2010
10:03 pm

Why didnt he take Jamal out instead of Jordan? Jordan was playing well.

O'Brien

November 20th, 2010
10:04 pm

Unfortunately, Jason Terry has blown by Jordan the last 2 possessions. but he played really well.

LD needs to throw him to the wolves, because he deserves the opportunity.

With Jamal struggling, why did he still play 24 minutes?

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
10:04 pm

Can’t get the freakin’ stops. I’m gonna call this one over. Hate to, but we just aren’t stopping them.

And the officiating continues to not help matters at all. Oh, we’d still be losing despite that, but I say we’re not in a double figure deficit but for the officiating.

O'Brien

November 20th, 2010
10:05 pm

Melvin,

Meanwhile, a turnover by Jamal. i dont know why LD still has him in the game.

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
10:05 pm

Melvin,

Veteran experience is my only guess. Yeah, Jordan has some defensive work to do. But like O’brien says, throw him to the wolves. He’s no sheep…

Melvin

November 20th, 2010
10:06 pm

I dont like LD decision to play Jamal extended mins tonight…

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
10:06 pm

Al straight beasting. Too bad Josh Smith didn’t show up to help him on the glass. For that matter, neither did anybody else. And I mean anybody .

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
10:07 pm

Melvin,

Me either.

I wonder if Al goes for 20 and 20 tonight? He’s at 18 and 18….

Melvin

November 20th, 2010
10:09 pm

lukas

November 20th, 2010
10:11 pm

There yuo go Big Ray,

20-20

Melvin

November 20th, 2010
10:12 pm

Big Ray,

Keep in mind Josh is guarding Dirk on the perimeter therefore there’s not too many opportunities for alot rebounds…

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
10:12 pm

OH MAN! Was I wrong about this game being over, or are we gonna lose a heartbreaker?

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
10:13 pm

Melvin ,

You’ve got a point…

Lukas ,

It couldn’t have come at a better time. Big Al with 20 and 20!

O'Brien

November 20th, 2010
10:16 pm

What does it say, when LD has more confidence in Jamal (who has struggled on offense and defense), instead of marvin Williams?

niremetal

November 20th, 2010
10:16 pm

Al didn’t have much help though. Everyone else sucked either at one end of the floor or the other. Or in Jamal and Zaza’s cases, both.

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
10:17 pm

Facts of Life:

1) Jason Terry has a head shaped like a peanut. Maybe that’s why I don’t like him.

2) Rick Carlisle is the reincarnation of Jim Carey in another life. A sad one.

3) Dirk Nowitzki has bigger teeth than Mr. Ed….or any other horse that has ever lived.

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
10:18 pm

O’brien ,

Don’t get me started….

Niremetal ,

Yep.

O'Brien

November 20th, 2010
10:18 pm

Seriously LD?

That looked like the play that Woody would call last season.

Melvin

November 20th, 2010
10:18 pm

WTF was Joe doing? Pass the ball, jump into the defender or go for the quick two…

niremetal

November 20th, 2010
10:18 pm

Marvin defended Dirk well during the relatively short spurts that he was assigned to guard him. Other than that, he was the invisible man again.

lukas

November 20th, 2010
10:19 pm

And that’s how you dump 126 million dollars!!

O'Brien

November 20th, 2010
10:20 pm

Hawks have 4 home losses already. They had 7 for the entire season last year. Wow.

I wonder if Woody is watching this game, and smiling.

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
10:20 pm

There it went. Our goose is cooked. Hopefully we can continue our ways with Boston, and finally earn a win over a team that is actually playing above .500 ball.

Great game by Al, pretty good game by Smith (sans the defense against Nowitzki on the perimeter).

Great game by the officials, they earned those bonuses for the non-calls and bad calls.

Damn fine effort by Bibby.

Somebody trade Jamal. Send Marvin with ‘em, just bring us back a SF in return.

niremetal

November 20th, 2010
10:20 pm

I actually didn’t think that play was bad at all, at least once Joe saw that Chandler was guarding him. He knew Chandler couldn’t stay with him, and he got an open look. He just missed it.

Hopefully Joe’s just having his usual late-winter slump early this year. He just isn’t shooting well.

Melvin

November 20th, 2010
10:21 pm

OB,

I think Joe force that one. He should have pass to a wide open Horford at the FT line. Go for the quick two and foul.

Melvin

November 20th, 2010
10:23 pm

OB,

You can stop referring to last year home record b/c i doubt they equal or improve on that record….

Melvin

November 20th, 2010
10:24 pm

Joe actually had Chandler in the air, he could have jump into for the foul and shoot 3 FTs.

Big Ray

November 20th, 2010
10:24 pm

I don’t know about that play call. I’m sure it wasn’t designed to fail, but Joe never looked for an option, either.

Both he and Jamal were awful from the field. Clearly we cannot beat the better teams in the league when two of our top four scorers are stinking it up. Jamal looked bad, but here’s just how bad it was for JJ – usually he gets more assists. This time, Jamal had nearly twice his total.

4 home losses is downright scary. Maybe we’re seeing the team get through its issues now, and they’ll be better later. Maybe I’m just being optimistic.

I know this much: it won’t be easy if Joe continues to struggle the way he has. What’s up with that glove on his left hand?

Melvin

November 20th, 2010
10:25 pm

Ray,

Co-sign your 10:20 post.

Harry Hawk

November 20th, 2010
10:26 pm

The comeback was nice, but we’ve made the playoffs three years in a row. Gutty comebacks that end in losses are not acceptable anymore.

O'Brien

November 20th, 2010
10:31 pm

The mavs played 3 games in 4 nights. This is the hawks 1st game in 4 nights.

Nire,

JJ and Jamal struggled all game so why not use JJ as a decoy again, and call a play for Al to get the quick 2, and foul again?

Maybe Al gets an And one. But if the Mavs dont foul, maybe he gets an easy 2. And with the game he was having (10-12 from the field), he should be an option.

niremetal

November 20th, 2010
10:36 pm

O’Brien,

I don’t think Al wasn’t an option on that play. I just think that once Horford set the screen and JJ got Chandler on him in single coverage, it’s tough to fault him for trying to break the 7′1 dude down and work him for an open 3. That’s exactly what happened.

It was a 3-point game, and the “quick 2″ option is not as appealing when there’s less than 10 seconds less in a 3-point game. Odds are that the Mavs would have simply hit the free throws and you would have been right back to trying to get a 3, but this time with 10 seconds left. I don’t see how taking an open 3 is a bad shot in that situation.

niremetal

November 20th, 2010
10:41 pm

*this time with less than 5 seconds left

O'Brien

November 20th, 2010
10:44 pm

LD said the play was for JJ to turn the corner, and drive to the bucket for 2. I am ok with that play, because he struggled shooting all game.

Meanwhile, Jamal Crawford was 2-10 from the field, with 5 turnovers, but he still played 33 minutes.

That’s on LD.

Melvin

November 20th, 2010
10:45 pm

Hawks need to upgrade its bench, plain and simple. There’s too much of a drop when they have to sub for their starters….

vava74

November 20th, 2010
10:46 pm

Not a good coaching effort by LD tonight.

Marvin was doing a good job on Dirk stopping him in several possessions in a row.

The minute he went back to Josh, Dirk missed an open look and then hit a jump shot from the elbow with Josh flying by really late.

To keep Jamal on the floor was a painful exercise. Actually, to play him at all is painful exercise.

Trade him ASAP.

To design that last play for JJ is plain dumb. JJ will not all of the sudden find back his stroke AND HIS HANDLE with that thing in his left hand.

In theory the play went reasonably well but it’s not the play we needed.

LD should have given the last shot to Jordan C or to Bibby. That is how you do it, give it to the guy who is hot, not to the guy who is stone cold.

vava74

November 20th, 2010
10:51 pm

We need to trade Jamal and get Teague more minutes until he breaks free. If he doesn’t, then we need to look elsewhere pronto.

The drop of on bench play is Jamal’s responsibility. Tonight he did get 7 assists, but the problem is when he first enters the game.

If he is hot, he can offset the fact that the offense stops executing. If he is cold – as in the majority of the games – he shoots and dribbles us out of the games and the reserves never get going.

Tonight he also had a bad pass and a lost ball in consecutive possessions in crunch time which cost us dearly.

vava74

November 20th, 2010
10:53 pm

And if LD’s plan was for JJ to receive and drive for a quick 2, then he also chose the player wrong for that option.

If he had Jamal on the floor, he should have chosen him since he sells contact better than JJ and his tricky dribble is certainly better than JJ’s with his hand like that.

niremetal

November 20th, 2010
10:55 pm

Yeah, what is up with JJ’s hand?

vava74

November 20th, 2010
10:55 pm

By the way, it was good to finally get to see two legit seven footers showing Al how to do it…

vava74

November 20th, 2010
10:59 pm

nire,

I read somewhere (pre-season) that JJ has a nagging wrist problem on his left hand and that he complains that it bothers him a lot but he does not want to get surgery and wants to simply withstand the pain.

I have two theories:

1. It’s true and he is diminished, in which case I would vote to shut him down immediately and start Mo (if healthy) with Jordan C subbing him heavily.

2. JJ has lost confidence and is feeling the size of the contract and made up an excuse to cover himself up form criticism.

vava74

November 20th, 2010
11:04 pm

OKC just won second in a row, back to back away from home, without Durant…

O'Brien

November 20th, 2010
11:15 pm

Vava,

I think the play should have been called for al horford. He was 10-12 from the field (unless LD was afraid of him missing FTs again).

Although Marvin was Invisible, he did not make the costly mistakes Jamal did. Not only was Jamal bad on defense, he also had 5 of the team’s 13 turnovers. But yet LD played Jamal 33 minutes?

But I agree about trading Jamal. His negatives are cancelling the positives, and with Jordan showing promise, he deserves more minutes.

Unfortunately, rick waited too long to trade Jamal, and now his trade value is lower.

lukas

November 20th, 2010
11:18 pm

Teague’s minutes in the last 4 games: 10, 17, 12, 4. If LD doesn’t pull a Woody on JC2 after tonight’s display, JT0 should be worried about start producing vs going into the doghouse. Somebody has to tell him that pulling Marvins won’t get him far!!

niremetal

November 20th, 2010
11:32 pm

O’B,

Even before the season, I really don’t think any team would have given us a player of value in exchange for Crawford on the logic that Crawford would actually improve their team. I think Jamal’s trade value this year stems almost entirely from the fact that his contract is expiring. So I really don’t think that waiting to trade him “hurt” his trade value, because I doubt teams are intensely interested in acquiring Jamal for what he brings as a player. Guards who can score but can’t play a lick of defense are easy to find.

That being said, I think some teams looking to rebuild or dump a long-term contract might be willing to take Crawford’s expiring in a trade. But we need to trade Jamal ASAP so that whoever we get in return has maximum time to adjust before the playoffs.

And if we need an extra volume-scoring guard, Flip Murray is still a free agent. Just sayin.

vava74

November 20th, 2010
11:40 pm

nire,

I am with you on Flip. He would fit in nicely.

At this stage, I would trade Jamal for anything.

Pretenders or Contenders?

November 20th, 2010
11:44 pm

Hawk’s record has them leaning almost exclusively towards the “Pretenders” side.

I actually think last years Hawks would blow this years out of the water, just outright embarrass them out of the building

Melvin

November 20th, 2010
11:51 pm

Drew said the plan was for Johnson to drive to the basket and draw a foul.

“But it was not a clean exchange between he and Al on the handoff,” he said.

vava74

November 21st, 2010
12:04 am

until we get 20/25 minutes of steady PG production behind Bibby, we are going nowhere.

it’s that simple.

right now we have JJ struggling mightily and Jamal playing horribly

It’s impossible to beat “serious” teams that way with the current rotation.

For me, Jordan C has proven to be deserving of ALL of Jamal’s minutes behind JJ.

Teague needs to step up or be moved.

vava74

November 21st, 2010
12:10 am

nonetheless the issue is simple:

We lost 5 games so far.

On all 5 losses but 1, we were in the game with 1 minute to play.

On all 5 losses we had players injured or severely limited.

Given JJ’s struggles, my guess is that we have been shorthanded since day 1, contrary to last year.

No need to panic, but what I mentioned above remains, IMO valid:

- Jamal out as soon as possible;
- Teague needs to step up;

With that, we would be significantly better and would be able IMO to overcome the rest of the issues we have with injuries and shooting funks.

O'Brien

November 21st, 2010
1:18 am

Vava,

No need to panic as yet. However, history suggests these players don’t have the mental fortitude necessary to make the next step.

LD said he saw guys hanging their heads early on just because Dallas made a run, and how he has seen it before. He sounds frustrated with this team.

Nire,

Teams may have valued Jamal more for his expiring contract, but I still think rick could have traded him for help in the frontcourt, or for help on the perimeter.

They say the easiest way to improve the moral in the work place is to fire the employees who are unhappy.

The best way to improve the mental makeup of this team is to make a trade.

O'Brien

November 21st, 2010
1:20 am

big Ray, Melvin

Hibbert had 19 and 10 against Howard and the magic tonight.

O'Brien

November 21st, 2010
1:48 am

And props to the hornets.

Despite being 10-1, with a rookie HC, and playing in a smaller market, they traded their $14 mil expiring contract in an attempt to get better.

Ed

November 21st, 2010
4:45 am

Great work as always Ray. LD stands no chance as long as Jamal plays to his own tune. Not having everyone (especially such a key player) on board and playing Drew’s offense means LD is in a no win situation. The longer Sund / McGearon wait to rid the Hawks of this cancerous attitude the bigger hole we will be dug into. And, without a doubt Jordan Crawford should be playing far more. He has that it factor which allows him to demand his team runs the offense or by taking big shots, and making a majority of them. He as has future star written all over him.

John J.

November 21st, 2010
7:37 am

Tell me again, why did we break the bank for ISO Joe? Poor shooting percentage, turnovers, etc…

BillS

November 21st, 2010
10:18 am

I’m sorry. I’m really sorry. But I’m bailing now on the Hawks. They’re headed where they’ve been before — slightly above mediocrity — and I’m tired of following them there. Everyone knew we needed to make changes, and we didn’t. We have some very good players, and we have upper management that is near-sighted and cheap. This is the result. I’m gone. Good luck, guys.

niremetal

November 21st, 2010
11:50 am

Mid-range/long jumper watch

Al: 3 for 4
Josh: 3 for 8
Joe: 2 for 11
Marvin: 1 for 3
Jamal: 0 for 7

drmaryb

November 21st, 2010
11:52 am

Blu-Ray
(Clear Image)

You said this:
“Marvin has made himself invisible again. After the time off and limited minutes, I’m hesitant to chalk this one up to him trying to get back into the groove after injury. He’s proving to be just plain useless.”

Useless – is not strong enough of a word!

drmaryb

November 21st, 2010
11:59 am

Blu-Ray
(Clear Image)

said this:
“know this much: it won’t be easy if Joe continues to struggle the way he has. What’s up with that glove on his left hand?

Well, Blu-Ray, say what you will – But, he is NO Michael Jackson!

O'Brien

November 21st, 2010
2:19 pm

The truth had an interesting post on the other blog, and I agree with some of his comments.

LD talked about accountability. But has anybody seen it, especially when it comes to Jamal?

Jamal is the first guy off the bench (no matter what). And he gets starter minutes (29 mpg, no matter what).

And Marvin is being Marvin.

And ZaZa has 3 games where he scored 17, 12 and 16. His other games? 7, 6, 3, 7, 0, 2, 2, 4, 5, and 0. We need more from him.

I wouldnt mind seeing the lineup from when Marvin was hurt. Twin/Al/Josh.

And except for one game where he scored 10 points, Teague has not scored more than 7 points in any other game. He contributes on defense, and in other ways, but his scoring would be very beneficial when Bibby is out the game.

O'Brien

November 21st, 2010
3:33 pm

Big Ray,

I tried posting this earlier, but it got eaten.

I was talking about lack of accountability when it comes to Jamal. he is the first guy off the bench (no matter what), and he gets starters minutes (29 mpg, no matter what).

Our bench has been really bad too.

ZaZa had 3 games in double figures, but other than that, he has not given us much. Teague has one game where he scord 10 points, but other than that, he has not given us much offensively.

And so far, Marvin is still Marvin.

I would like to see the lineup of Twin/Al/Josh some more.

Astro Joe

November 21st, 2010
4:36 pm

I missed the second half last night. But am I to understand that LD called a play for the guy with a bad wrist that was intended NOT to convert the shot as much as to get the ref to blow the whistle? And the starters had attempted all of 4 FTAs during the entire game? Interesting.

I did get to see Dallas employ zone defense with very similar results. Funny to read all of the “trade Jamal” posts.

hawkfan

November 21st, 2010
7:08 pm

i thought jamal is known as “the difference” maybe he is the difference between this team being mediocre or moving to the next step, who knows

Jeff D.

November 21st, 2010
8:33 pm

MD, Real fans support the team regardless. You can’t just be a fan of the team after it peels off some big wins and ask to be dropped off when they lose to the Knicks. I live in Atlanta and I’m a fan, period. This team is far from a bunch of bums, and/or garbage. It’s a work in progress. We’re not owned by Mark Cuban or Jerry Buss. As for our ownership, we have too many cooks in the kitchen and that’s a sad fact. Sund has done well considering. If your not a fan I’m not offended. I’m sure you have other jersey’s to wear in your closet for this week, or are you sticking with the New Orleans jersey a little longer?

O'Brien

November 21st, 2010
9:31 pm

I give OKC lots of credit. But they drafted James Harden at #3 in the 2009 draft. Some of the picks after James Harden? Tyreke Evans at #4, Stephen Curry at #7, Brandon Jennings at #10.

I guess this adds to the debate about do you take the best available player, or do you draft for need? They drafted for need (they already had Westbrook), but they are still waiting for Harden to step up.

Speaking of James Harden, saw this from Bill Simmons;

“The concern with Harden? He might be another Marvin Williams: solid player, good character guy, a borderline starter … but ultimately pretty forgettable” .

Here we are, 6 years later, still complaining about Marvin Williams, and still looking for a long term solution at the PG position.

Astro Joe

November 21st, 2010
9:58 pm

OB, do you know about George McGinnis and Marc Ivaroni?

Supposedly, Rondo will miss the Hawks game.

Melvin

November 22nd, 2010
12:24 am

Astro,

Celtics still have the midget and Delonte. Both players has given the Hawks trouble in the past….

Melvin

November 22nd, 2010
12:33 am

“Ryan McNeill: Colangelo also said that the team would look into a trade or buyout if Peja Stojakovic doesn’t like his role here in Toronto. Twitter”

If the Raps buyout Peja, would you guys like to see him in a Hawks uniform? Could be a cheap signing to play backup SF or bring Marvin off the bench and in defensive situations…

Big Ray

November 22nd, 2010
1:09 am

Melvin ,

I vote NO on that one. Peja isn’t what he used to be, and I’m not even sure Marvin could be a consistent bench player (at $37 million, no less). We can’t seem to get him going as a starter, would he get much done as a bench player? A year ago or more, I’d have said yes. Now I’m not so sure. I do know that I’m absolutely tired of watching him do anything but be consistent. That’s all I want, is it too much to ask?? Just be freakin’ consistent and stop disappearing!

If we bring in another SF type, we need to get a guy who can give us a good solid 15-25 minutes, not somebody who simply comes in and shoots. We’re already having to resort to that when subbing Jamal in for Marvin. Ideally, you lose size, defense, and rebounding when that happens. However, when Marvin isn’t giving us anything, we end up going with Jamal. I mean, what does that say about Marvin (as O’brien pointed out during the game)? Nope, we need a more complete player.

If we could put another 2-3 inches of height on Mo Evans, we’d be fine.

vava74

November 22nd, 2010
3:34 am

Even if Rondo does not play, I don’t think Boston will lose 3 in a row…

Specially after what they said yesterday after losing to TOR… they will come with chip on their shoulder.

Or maybe Jamal will ON tonight so he can be off 3 or 4 games in a row after…

vava74

November 22nd, 2010
3:58 am

trade Jamal for a back of Cheetos but trade him AT ONCE

and look into Da’Sean Butler.

If he recovers from his injury we could have a great core of wing players:

J teague (I have not lost hope on him coming along)
jordan C (I think he will be a star in this league)
da’sean B

wordsmithtom

November 22nd, 2010
4:55 am

Jordan showed 2 things Sat. He is fearless: that shot over Dirk was a thing of beauty, proof the kid has the instinct to go after the hoop, nomatter whom is in front of him. Kind of like that dunk over Lebron we saw on the web. Jordon fears nobody. He also showed he’s not quite ready to close out games. He has a lot to learn and needs minutes. I’m more inclined now to agree with vava on the need to move JC1 now instead of waiting till mid season. Addition by subtraction would give Jordon minutes in the first half to learn. Kid’s going to be a PLAYER, even as he has a lot to learn. He seems to have the aptitude to go with the desire.

O'Brien

November 22nd, 2010
7:43 am

wordsmithtom,

Agreed on Jordan. But if you look at the numbers, Jamal is not ready to close out games either. But I think it starts with Marvin.

When Chills was here, he would close games out over Marvin. And now we see Jamal (even when he is struggling) closing games out over Marvin.

Big Ray, Marvin is consistent.

2009 Marvin: 10 pts, 5 rebs, 30.5 mpg, good defense under Woody.

2010 Marvin: 9.4 pts, 5 rebs, 29 mpg, good defense under LD.

So far, that’s what we’ve been getting for $7.5 mil annually.

And to make it worse, we see improvements that Josh and Al are making every season, but what improvements have we seen from Marvin? A new and improved way to wrap the towel around his head when he’s on the bench?

wordsmithtom

November 22nd, 2010
8:10 am

No, Marvin is not taking us to another level. He is not, however, hurting us with 5-6 turnover nights. He showed signs of picking things up before getting hurt. One wonders if he ever figures it out. Still, he’s not HURTING us like the JC1/JC2 bad nights together do. Gun to head: we swap JC1 for a 3 that can shoot from the outside who pushes Marvin for minutes. He’s never had anyone who would take his time….that might just motivate him….having to ride the pines. As things stand, we have no one to stimulate this kind of urgency. If your mommy makes your bed, you never learn to make your own bed….

O'Brien

November 22nd, 2010
8:37 am

I would like to see JJ return to form though, because it will be tough to beat the good teams if JJ continues to struggle like he is.

His scoring average is down to 18.5, and he is shooting 25% from behind the arc. And the motion offense was supposed to make things easier for him.

Maybe its the new contract effect. Marvin, Bibby and ZaZa all struggled the first season after signing their big contract in the offseason.

vava74

November 22nd, 2010
8:40 am

wordsmithtom,

co-sign. Jamal has been a bad shot and turnover machine and is killing the teams momentum when he gets in in the first period.

vava74

November 22nd, 2010
8:51 am

OB,

JJ is playing hurt.

It’s his non shooting hand, but nonetheless, I believe that this is causing him problems.

O'Brien

November 22nd, 2010
9:14 am

vava,

Could be. I think MC mentioned something about him wearing a glove on his hand.

wordsmithtom,

Beasley was a #2 pick, and he struggled in Miami, where they had high expectations for him, and was very inconsistent. But now that he is in Minny, he is playing much better.

Beasley in Miami: 14 pts and 6 rebs per game
Beasley in Minnesota: 22 pts and 6 rebs per game

I really think a change of scenery would do Marvin well. Here, he will always be the guy drafted over CP3 and Deron, and the guy we’re paying $7.5 mil to be the 4th or 5th option on offense.

A fresh start would do him and the Hawks well (imo). And with the money we’re paying Al, Josh, and JJ, I think SF is one position where we could/should be saving money, especially with a new CBA.

O'Brien

November 22nd, 2010
9:15 am

One more thing on Marvin. Defensively, he defends his position well. But on offense, is SF really his best position?

Or should we play him some minutes at backup PF? He has to be better than Josh Powell, right?

Astro Joe

November 22nd, 2010
9:41 am

Has anyone looked at the Eastern Conference standings lately? Remember the prevailing thought during the summer was that the Hawks may lose a few more games because the teams int ehconference “have gotten better”? Yes, it’s early, but the Eastern Conference looks pretty pathetic right now with only 5 teams with winning records.

Didn’t we lose like 3 of 5 games when Marvin was hurt? So how is Marvin hurting this team if we’ve only lost 2 games with him playing? Oh yeah, winning isn’t as satisfying unless every player is putting up nice stats.

Fact of the Day… after 13 games in ‘09-10 season, the Hawks were averaging over 106 points per gamewith an overall 11-2 record and 4-2 on the road.

doc

November 22nd, 2010
12:23 pm

would anyone ttrade the salaries of shaq and chills for that of mo and jamal about now. if we had paid shaq what he wanted it might have been about the same in salary structure. throw away collins salary and get one of the wings that went for 1.5 mil and we might be more competitive and deeper than we really are now. we have two sg to pretend they are sf and have been for two years. balance, where is it? shame somehow jack couldnt have been pried away in the off season from the raptors. wonder why he suddenly became available or was he all along for the person doing the asking?

wonder what tonight brings? really glad we got by the pacers, that really could have been a trap game.

doc

November 22nd, 2010
12:25 pm

ok astro, when are you going to make it official with a sign off on all the posts with:

“BRING BACK WOODY!” ?

;-)

Astro Joe

November 22nd, 2010
1:41 pm

doc, I don’t want Woody. Although I am thinking of starting a Bill Laimbeer campaign. If you think that one Kardashian sister is shallow, media-focused and self-absorbed, then why date another Kardashian sister? (That is by no means a literal interpretation from me, those girls are FINE and I ain’t mad at none of them).

I also wondered if the Raptors were looking for a double-digit expiring contract and a young PG who has only flashed some playing potential, if the Hawks didn’t have those same assets to trade to the Raps for Jack (and Banks’ expiring deal). But then again, it’s only a matter of time before Teague is better than most of the PGs drafted ahead of him… we just need Van Exel to keep working his dog-voodoo.

doc

November 22nd, 2010
2:56 pm

yeah astro you got my drift.

Melvin

November 22nd, 2010
7:43 pm

Forget being a Hawks fans, that 1st qtr was an embarrassment to any fan of basketball…

vava74

November 22nd, 2010
7:47 pm

oh my… oh my…

vava74

November 22nd, 2010
7:48 pm

I am sending a mammoth size order of diapers to the Hawks…

Astro Joe

November 22nd, 2010
8:08 pm

OK, let’s see what “accountability” looks like when you’re losing by 20 at half-time in front of your home fans. Steve Holman is KILLING several players on the radio.

Astro Joe

November 22nd, 2010
8:10 pm

vava, maybe you need to take a nap. Last season, you always slept through the good runs and were awake for the poor stretches.

lukas

November 22nd, 2010
8:11 pm

How can a team, the same team with lightly better bench, regress that much over one season? Last year they were tough at home; this year they can’t even play equally to an older Boston team that they owned last year.

doc

November 22nd, 2010
8:16 pm

it is about the culture and it starts at the top.

shaq couldnt have helped this team? jarrett jack available and we dont have him? chills gone for a second rounder that hawks never guess right on and nire points out rarely work for even the best teams and an accounting gimmick the hawks would never use? that is the culture i speak of.

wouldnt using fewer bodies and getting quality have been reasonable rather than what we got. look at their depth, simply men against boys.

i guess the mystique of phillips is over for the celts.

doc

November 22nd, 2010
8:18 pm

who was holman dishing astro?

vava74

November 22nd, 2010
8:19 pm

lukas,

Many factors, amongst them:

1. The Hawks are infantile: every single time an opponent shows up undermanned, the Hawks come into the game with the wrong mind set.

2. I love Horford, but he suffers for a metal block when he faces Howard and Shaq and simply sh*ts his pants.

3. JJ is hurt and should be shut down completely until he comes back healthy.

AND

4. Boston came out of 2 consecutive losses and yesterday the talk was that they had to man up and be more focused, so they came extra motivated and with the right mind set.

All the above shows on court:

a) We came in asleep;

b) Horford came shooting blanks against Shaq (and continues on close shots to do so);

c) JJ is useless right now;

d) Boston is playing like hell.

vava74

November 22nd, 2010
8:20 pm

And Josh’s man to man D is subpar… and his decision making on fast breaks horrible…

vava74

November 22nd, 2010
8:22 pm

And as we all know it, Bibby is too damn slow to defend Nate.

LD is, for the second game in a row, making significant mistakes on the bench.

It breaks my heart but:

1. Teague should have gotten minutes earlier to stop Nate;

2. Collins should have gotten minutes earlier to clog the lane and give Shaq something bigger to push around.

Astro Joe

November 22nd, 2010
8:22 pm

doc, at one point he said “I forgot Marvin was playing tonight”. At another point he said “oh-oh, Josh is having one of those games again”. e ripped Zaza for not going after a rebound. He’s pretty much ripping the team collectively for poor effort.

lukas

November 22nd, 2010
8:27 pm

Vava,

I agree with you, but i prefer doc’s version: this team has developed a culture based on losing, laziness, being cheap, being mentally weak, and no pride. Even Horford, which is the only champion we have (besides Bibby), is getting infected by the “i won’t play hard because i don’t feel like to” attitude.

lukas

November 22nd, 2010
8:37 pm

I like Jordan Crawford.

vava74

November 22nd, 2010
8:45 pm

lukas,

doc’s version is an easy thing to say but is not “material” nor “palpable”.

what I can see is that JJ is hurt and should not be playing AT ALL, that Bibby is too slow to defend Nate, Horford craps his pants against Howard and Shaq but matches up well against Garnett, Josh is being burned by Garnett and should not continued to defend him…

Collins, who is a capable defender was not put against Shaq…

A lot of mistakes by LD who started by doing a good job but I think has now lost track of where he wants to go.

niremetal

November 22nd, 2010
8:49 pm

That’s why I like Holman. He’s a homer when it counts, but he also calls it like it is. And tonight, the Hawks provided a better example than any dictionary could for the word “apathy.”

vava74

November 22nd, 2010
8:50 pm

And WTF is Teague doing on the bench?

Melvin

November 22nd, 2010
8:52 pm

lukas,

You are fairly new in these parts. You may not want to refer to the Hawks as being cheap b/c that may incite a riot on the blog….

vava74

November 22nd, 2010
8:52 pm

And WTF Jamal is doing on the court?

Melvin

November 22nd, 2010
8:53 pm

vava,

LD gave him the quick during the 3rd qtr for Mo. I was wondering the same thing…

lukas

November 22nd, 2010
8:54 pm

vava,

Hawks are near hitting rock-bottom, which is a good thing because it will force changes. Bibby-JJ-Josh-Al-Twin: that’s what LD has to try!! Send Marvin to Turkey, give JJ the rest he needs, and address the mindset of this team. Detroit wasn’t as athletic as the Hawks, nor are the Celtics, but they are better teams, and part of that is because mindset and chemestry.

lukas

November 22nd, 2010
8:56 pm

vava,

I wanted to say make some moves but ASG is cheap and Sund is not that good as a GM.

vava74

November 22nd, 2010
9:00 pm

Teague played well during his first shift. Got to the rim for a lay up, a floater, kept in front of his man.

His second shift was not good since he left Nate alone in the corner 2 or 3 times but in what that differs from Bibby when can’t find through the picks?

Let him play and shout at him, but for goodness sakes, let him play.

doc

November 22nd, 2010
9:01 pm

bringing more on the culture from the other blog:

well for so long i admired the intelligence of LD, however:

“They have a blend of veteran players with the core of their team, and it’s a lot easier to fit in a vet like Shaq,” Hawks coach Larry Drew said. “If we brought him in here, it would be a little tougher. I don’t think his personality would have fit with our guys. It makes more sense to have veteran guys around him.”

is just plain stupid.

rivers:

Celtics coach Doc Rivers said there have been no issues with O’Neal accepting his role on a team with established players and strong personalities.

“We have good veterans,” he said. “We are going to do it our way, nobody else’s way, no matter who comes in the locker room. None of that individual stuff will be tolerated.”

guess we got bad vets.

when are these guys going to grow up?

spiraling down folks, the crest was a fun place to view things. organic growth anyone?

lukas

November 22nd, 2010
9:05 pm

Melvin,

Thanks for the advise, jeje.

Melvin

November 22nd, 2010
9:07 pm

doc,

I wouldnt read too much into that LD statement about Shaq. I think he was being the company man and not wanted to bad mouth or seem in disagreement with his boss(es).

vava74

November 22nd, 2010
9:10 pm

doc,

Actually, LD is perfectly right.

Shaq would be a disaster over here and to think otherwise is being foolish.

Shaq is fitting in with the Celts precisely because of the type of franchise and the fact that their core is proven with 1 title and 1 finals.

Here, Shaq would demand more time and more shots than he would be able to convert into useful contributions.

Melvin

November 22nd, 2010
9:11 pm

Vava,

More boos as #Celtics lead up to 85-54. Teague frustrated in huddle, @Al_Horford trying to calm things down

Melvin

November 22nd, 2010
9:15 pm

Maybe a nice long road trip will do wonders for the Hawks. Give those guys time to bond with each other. This early season home stand has been a disater..

Melvin

November 22nd, 2010
9:18 pm

I cant believe that I havent stop my DVR yet..

doc

November 22nd, 2010
9:28 pm

well stinger summed iot up by saying we looked small and intimidated. ouch, but very true we are small.

vava74

November 22nd, 2010
9:35 pm

doc,

that’s stupid. many teams stop Shaq, even with small or fairly small players.

what we lack is not size, it’s balls and LD stop repeating Woody’s mistakes.

tonight, until we saw the reserves playing together during the 4th, we could not tell that if we were coached by LD or by Woody.

Collins should have played early against Shaq, Al moved to Garnett and Josh either played the SF or benched.

Teague should have been the first off the bench to slow down Nate.

All basic and simple stuff which would have guaranteed a more competitive showing.

vava74

November 22nd, 2010
9:37 pm

Having JJ injured playing as he is now is also pointless.

Wade has a similar injury. Tonight he is 1-11 and Miami is trailing by 12 in the 4th at home against IND.

doc

November 22nd, 2010
9:38 pm

melvin my sentiments exactly. i thought that myself. again, it wasnt what he was saying when shaq was still in play.

ouch look at marvin’s line for the night. shaq had more rebounds than josh, al and marvin together?

yeah agree, shaq wouldnt have fit in because he would have beat the hell out of our little guys in practice while being delegated to the second string.

doc

November 22nd, 2010
9:41 pm

well vava i ddint see what you had written but you are right they dont have balls and shaq would have mercilessly pounded that into them on a daily basis. sad reason a guy doesnt fit in, that is double stupid.

seems there was a come to jesus meeting after the game players and coaches only. hmmm

doc

November 22nd, 2010
9:42 pm

Astro Joe

November 22nd, 2010
9:46 pm

The good news is that we play NJ and DC next. So our 2-6 run (since the 6-0 start) should promptly end. Thank goodness the regular season is a secondary concern… or else I’d be worried. 68 games left until the true test begins.

Hey Big Ray, you can keep the same blog title for another few games… Hawks are ,em>still looking for their first credible win.

vava74

November 22nd, 2010
9:49 pm

doc,

stop it already.

Shaq would never accept to be in ATL if he did not get starter’s minutes and shot.

Shaq never brough ANYTHING to any locker room and ATL would not be the first place.

Shaq is lazy, has a bad attitude and does not set good examples at anything.

BOS is the perfect set up for him because he feels that he has a shot at playing the finals against Kobe and get his 5th ring against him.

Without that very specif motivation and setting, Shaq would be even fatter and more out of shape than he already is.

Melvin

November 22nd, 2010
9:56 pm

Miami has attempted 38 FTs to Indy 11 and the Heat are still losing by 13pts with 3 left in the game… Lebron has shot 15 by himself…

vava74

November 22nd, 2010
9:58 pm

there is nothing like somebody else’s misery to sweeten ours a bit… :-D

doc

November 22nd, 2010
9:59 pm

build a culture and they will come vava. until then you talk about boys having balls. you start with a credible coach that has been around the block. good luck LD, the clock may have started running. is this the second coming of the sixer’s blow up last year when asked to do the princeton shuffle? get well on nets and dc or else.

Melvin

November 22nd, 2010
10:03 pm

vava

One plus to signing Shaq is, he wouldn’t be on another team causing the Hawks problems. So that would have left only one center in the league to give Al problems, Howard. Also, I think we would have seen Horford playing more PF allowing Shaq extended mins with a 3 man rotation at the PF,C. Then the Hawks could have moved ZaZa who is not a good compliment to Al for another rotational player or to a team under the cap for picks/PTE to save monies…

niremetal

November 22nd, 2010
10:06 pm

Anyone who thinks Shaq has balls is out of their mind. Unless you think by “balls” you mean “lazy and fat, but secure in the knowledge that no one can move your fat ass off the block.”

vava74

November 22nd, 2010
10:12 pm

Unfortunately, the same way Hawks fans think too highly about Shaq’s current ability, so does Al.

Al is a fine player, but he is proving to be a pansy… instead of a warrior.

vava74

November 22nd, 2010
10:15 pm

well, I am out.

not given up on LD already, but getting close.

he needs to make a significant shuffle in the rotation and a good start would be to get JJ on the injured list, ditch Jamal and force feed Teague more minutes.

If he does not do at least these last two, he will be out by Christmas.

Melvin

November 22nd, 2010
10:17 pm

Well, if you want to know why Jamal play has been off this year it’s b/c he’s uncertain…LOL

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/11/22/jamal-crawford-admits-his-uncertain-future-has-affected-his-play/

Melvin

November 22nd, 2010
10:30 pm

From Sekou’s Twitter:

“”RT @christomasson: Shaq on why didn’t sign with Atlanta: “(Hawks GM) Rick Sund was bull (bleeping). Want me to spell it out for you?’’””

doc

November 22nd, 2010
10:43 pm

yeah vava i said it on the other blog, ld’s clock is now officially ticking. he sounded pretty perturbed to say the least, be interesting if the team responds or lays another egg. if they do sund had better go to his a list this time before it is too late for this season. hubie where are you?

nire, i didnt say shaq has balls only agreed with vava that we didnt and shaq if he were here and full of himself and given some license to do it he would beat some balls into these guys or watch them cry and run out of the sand box. kg took it to big baby, that may be what is needed here only a true vet. look, i know your shaq bias so it really doesnt matter what i say, only he delivered tonight and has done a pretty good job filling the middle until perkins gets back. he has not been the celts problem.

melvin, that is a strategy among the true elite. i even read it was a reason barnes was brought to l a so they wouldnt have to face him in a match up with the magic.

at sekou …. why didnt you say the real while you were here boss?

Melvin

November 22nd, 2010
10:51 pm

doc,

Those were not Sekou words. He retweeted that post from the fan house writer Chris Tomasson whom I guess interviewed Shaq before the game. In Sekou defense, he did say this summer he was going to have a rally in front the Highlight Factory for the Hawks to sign Shaq.

O'Brien

November 22nd, 2010
11:45 pm

If I’m LD, I would start 5 bench players tomorrow night. That’s the best way to show accountability is is by benching players.

And by starting 5 bench players, the media Would have a field day, but maybe the players Would be embarrassed enough where they come together.

niremetal

November 23rd, 2010
12:11 am

I think that resurrecting Winston Churchill and installing him as head coach might be the only way to get these players to play with heart. Failing that, it’s rapidly approaching the point where at least one member of the sacred core needs to be benched or traded to make a statement.

For now, back to watching the ATP Finals…

vava74

November 23rd, 2010
4:15 am

There is no wayto put it softly so here it goes:

Al Horford craped his pants AGAIN against Howard/Shaq.

Since Al is supposed to be our leader, we have nowhere to go like this.

He is a very nice player and has improved greatly every single year, but he is soft and instead of manning up when the going gets tough, he craps his pants.

This is our team’s bench mark. The guy everyone (outside) looks to be the leader for the future is SOFT.

The we have Josh, who seems to be the emotional leader and the guy who sets the tone: another softie who thinks he is Magic Johnson instead of working like Rodman.

Couple this with a guy who was not born to lead (JJ) a one dimentional PG (Bibby) and a shot happy turn over machine (Jamal) and te Houdini of small forwards (Marvin) who does not have the skill set to play SF on offense and …

WE HAVE A MESS!!!

wordsmithtom

November 23rd, 2010
5:41 am

Somebody get me the address for the Hawks locker room so I can send them an Xmas present. I’m shopping for Granny Panties, loose fitting ones.

J Crawford leading in rebounds and assists. NO EXCUSE FOR THIS STARTERS NO EXCUSE

On second thought: BUY YOUR OWN PANTIES, GIRLS…you got plenty of money

wordsmithtom

November 23rd, 2010
5:47 am

Now, after that rant, I’ll say this. Maybe this is what these guys need. I mentioned two weeks ago after the Celtics smacked down Miami that Drew needed to show these guys that tape because that’s what they would do to them if they let them. Well, we came in limp-wristed and git fisted. Good for Boston.
Unfortunately, the bench played about as bad, save Jordan, as the starters. Maybe this wakes up Sund to the fact his core is unbalanced and to LD that his core is soft. Changes will have to be made. I’m with the idea of sitting JJ until his hand heals, letting J Crawford play.
They need to act quickly or this can get ugly if we lose the fan base altogether.

vava74

November 23rd, 2010
6:10 am

Excellent press conference by LD available on foxsportssouth

Now he needs to back his words with actions and bench the starters until they man up.

I don’t mind losing 5 in a row with the reserves.

vava74

November 23rd, 2010
6:29 am

Just watched the first 5 minutes again.

Guys grabbing their shorts and looking winded and wasted:

Josh – looked awful, no lift, no energy, body language all wrong since the tip off (which he lost to a guy with no lift)
Marvin – right on the first play he got stuck on the first pick and look unenergized fighting it.
Bibby – when he shot the FTs, he was clearly winded and grabbed his shorts. However, this is nothing new.
Al – well, I don’t know if he was actually winded and lacked energy or if he simply crapped his pants, or BOTH.

JJ – didn’t look winded, but did look a bit lethargic, however, his “style” is never very energetic.

Willie Coyote

November 23rd, 2010
7:10 am

The Celtics guarded Marvin with Ray Allen at times and what does Marvin do??? He shoots a double clutch fadeaway from 2 feet away from the basket; un-freakin-believeable. DUNK ON HIM!!!! SHOW SOME PRIDE IN YOUR ABILITY!!!

7-0 against lottery teams; 0-6 against contenders. Once again I will ask where are the “a win’s a win” people now?

It appears that Orlando ruined this team with the beatdown they handed us in last year’s playoffs. Snap out of it guys. You can compete but you choose not to. That is a disgrace.

O'Brien

November 23rd, 2010
8:10 am

vava,

All offseason and so far this season, LD has said all the right things. Unfortunately, this has not translated on the court.

And I’m still waiting for LD to hold players accountable, instead of just talking about it.

Start 5 bench players tonight. Is it drastic? Sure. But all the talk LD is talking has not had an effect.

From Mark Bradley’s article;

“It took the Hawks six years to stop listening to Mike Woodson. It has taken one month for them to tune out his successor.” .

Memo to Rick Sund. Woody was a problem. But he was not the only problem. Players are a problem too. And we dont have the right mix of players.

doc

November 23rd, 2010
9:08 am

vava said,

doc,

stop it already.

Shaq would never accept to be in ATL if he did not get starter’s minutes and shot.

Shaq never brough ANYTHING to any locker room and ATL would not be the first place.

Shaq is lazy, has a bad attitude and does not set good examples at anything.

nire said:

Anyone who thinks Shaq has balls is out of their mind. Unless you think by “balls” you mean “lazy and fat, but secure in the knowledge that no one can move your fat ass off the block.”

my thoughts; seems like shaq would have fit in well in this locker room. why would he try when everyone else has quit. shaq or anyone else is able to see it. this comment is really more of a comment on the play and attitude of the hawks as they are know made of today rather than one of we need shaq. please dont misunderstand that i think shaq could change what is going on in the locker room today.

heard dimetrov today on 790. pick it up and listen to it if possible on the 790 fan website if they are webcasting it. great interview, he gets it. first of all he sounds like a man in charge when he speaks. for that matter frank wren for better or worse sounds the same way. it is very different than the mouthpiece that is the hawks gm in rick sund. he never seems to be speaking his mind, only giving the spiel that he used to get the job or very carefully picking his words now so as to not say anything his bosses would not like to hear. yeah i am reading and listening between the lines, no evidence and gut talking pretty loud here.

the other thing that really rang hard and true was dimetrov is about building the pieces of a culture to compete at the level it is necessary to compete at. he says it is all about the now. unfortunately, this team was built for the future. so when does that come and when are the players to feel the urgency is now if they havent been taught that? it is about the culture and one that breeds this type of entitled lackadaisical attitudes. no team, to really compete has been done in the method this team tried it where it was built by the draft only. it didnt work in chicago when they tried it, may not fly in portland though they were closer, it may happen in okc, so it will be the first.

i dont think this core has got it unless a very smart and proven coach that these guys respect and know he has the guts to send them packing and has the control to do it arrives on the scene. if a new coach arrives on the scene he also has to convince owners he has the capability to get them a championship if they spend the money to compete with the big boys and go over their present budget. i dont think however that is the culture that gearon wants. he is the one playing in the sand box he dreamed about having from his school days on. my impression, i dont think he gets it either, it IS about the culture.

vava74

November 23rd, 2010
9:18 am

doc,

Shaq is always the first NOT TO SET THE EXAMPLE.

In Boston HE IS FOLLOWING THE EXAMPLE, and that is why he is good fit there and would not be a good fit here.

Shaq would be the first guy to be swimming in strippers the night before a game, not the first to call out the guys and say that they should be professionals and take the WHOLE SEASON and ALL MATCHES SERIOUSLY.

The fact that you can’t or don’t want to realize this simple fact is BEWILDERING.

SHAQ WAS NEVER A LOCKER ROOM LEADER, HE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A LOCKER ROOM CANCER.

Astro Joe

November 23rd, 2010
9:50 am

I think there was a 50/50 chance that Shaq qould have worked here. But there was a 10% chance that the status quo would work.

Shaq has NEVER played with a sense of urgency (in the regular season) so he would likely have done very little to help motivate guys when they needed a kick in the pants. In fact, he may have served too often as a human “chill pill” having the opposite desired impact on some of the core players. On the other hand, he would have instilled a “swagger” that the team has fed off in the past. Bibby first brought that swagger after his acquisition, the certainty of having a savvy assassin ready to shoot the dagger 3. Then Jamal brought some last year, he gave his team an emotional lift with every trick-dribble move or 4-point play. Shaq would have taken away any internal concerns about “being too small”, no team worries about size when Shaq is wearing their uniform. Likewise, any issues with half-court sets would be calmed when the team could rely on a still viable low-post option (for about 18-20 minutes a game).

Again, I easily see both sides of the Shaq story. But again, the odds (IMO) were FAR better with Shaq than with the status quo.

Astro Joe

November 23rd, 2010
10:09 am

MC’s ode to the Summer of Sameness:

Same group, new coach, and so far the same results. Actually, I can’t even say same results since the Hawks beat some good teams along the way to 53Ws and the No. 3 seed. They haven’t beaten any yet this season.

Astro Joe

November 23rd, 2010
10:18 am

This may be the most damning quote of the Hawks-playoff era (from Mo Evans):

“We don’t have an identity, unless it’s when things go bad we go the other way. Maybe that’s out identity and we don’t know it.”

O'Brien

November 23rd, 2010
10:20 am

I’m with AJ. Signing Shaq would have been a risk. But he would have gotten up for games against Orlando, Lakers, Boston etc. And we would need him in the playoffs.

And I think we could have found starter minutes for Shaq.

Center: Al (22), Shaq (26).
PF: Josh (35), Al (13).

Maybe we could have traded ZaZa, who knows. And I think Al and Shaq would play very well together. Imagine the lineup of Shaq, Al, and Josh when we go big?

Would Shaq have been a huge risk? Yes. But the bigger risk, as AJ puts it, is to promote Woody’s right hand man, and keep the same team intact.

Melvin

November 23rd, 2010
12:47 pm

I agree with doc, Astro and OB. Signing Shaq out weights the risk issues. Heck, we have the same players and Mo (along with others) is saying the team has no identity now. On the nights that Shaq seem ineffective, they could always go back the normal lineup for extended mins. Let’s face it, the Hawks needed Shaq more important for the playoffs with the exception of the Orlando, Miami, Boston and LA games. Maybe the Spurs as well. Hawks have enough talent and size to play with all the other teams.

Melvin

November 23rd, 2010
12:54 pm

doc,

As for LD comments on Shaq. What’s so funny is the Hawks were interested enough in him to offer the vet min (reportedly) but are now saying that he would have disrupted the team chemistry…. Hmmm…

doc

November 23rd, 2010
12:59 pm

vava, dont put words in my mouth that i never came close to saying. i even made the strong point to say i was not implicating that shaq would be a leader only he would fit right in with these guys right now. to say you dont want him because of what you said about him runs true for ALL the hawks right now. so why trash shaq? i did see your tone about the team had become more generalized and i agree with your comments. i said these things in the off season t at least look out for them. i also repeat shaq would not have been the problem. however, if he had come here folks would have pointed their fingers inappropriately at him instead of where it needs to be pointed. for that reason alone i am glad he didnt come here.

i will speak my truth about shaq though. he wasnt the problem in cleveland, they are finding that out in miami. he wasnt the problem in miami nor in l a as they didnt win without him as he left until they found a few reloads in l a and yet to do in miami. he is outspoken and a huge target, that is all. i appreciate that as he would have called out few folks by now. only he would have been assessed the malcontent and cause. i see only a guy working hard with his teammates in boston that are working as hard as him now. no malcontent there nor prima donna. simple stuff easily lost in translation.

doc

November 23rd, 2010
1:08 pm

shaq right now is better than maybe all but two of the players on this team! really who is playing better than him? they wanted him to come here hold these little boys hands and not offend them to upset a chemistry that didnt exist? they wanted him to be paid the same frigging amount that the beloved collins is backing up to the window to get every week. i can see why shaq said, uh no thanks. why cant anyone else?

doc

November 23rd, 2010
1:19 pm

many of us said, somehow we have to get better in the off season. as astro said sameness didnt get it. thus far that point of view is valid until there is a defining win or two against legit teams. falling behind by over 20 points in five of the six tests against the better teams is not what i call a prepared and balanced team. i really dont care what you lose by because they were really never in a place to win in the comebacks. i was there for two of them and you could see the hump was too big. they have been out of those games. yes this team is better than it is playing. what does it take to get this team to play better is what LD and rick sund better be talking about today.

melvin good point. come here out our price and you fit right in. too funny.

Clyde

November 23rd, 2010
1:28 pm

They banned me from the other blog now I gotta come holla at LiL Ray. What Up Mane?

Now to the Hawks. The Head Coach wasn’t the only thing wrong with the Hawks but that’s the only change that was made. I’m seriously thinking the next move the Hawks need to make is trading Smooth.

Why? I think he’s the only person that’s worth something. No one wants JJ with his contract and everyone else is worthless besides Horford.

And #2 I think the Hawks need a change in mentality. Smooth is a great player but his attitude is sucks. All that complaining when things don’t go his way is not how leaders should act. It is taking a toll on the Hawks and he is not setting a good example for our young players.

Lets get rid of Smooth, move Horford to center and change the culture of the Hawks.

niremetal

November 23rd, 2010
1:33 pm

This is all a moot point if the reports about Shaq demanding $8M and a starting spot to come to Atlanta were true. We only had the mid-level (and frankly, I don’t think he’s worth that) and a bench role to offer him. A sign-and-trade wasn’t really option unless we could convince Cleveland to accept Marvin’s 4 year contract (and would we really want to make that deal without getting back a SF?). Boston offered him more playing time, a better shot at a title, a storied history, and a bigger stage (at least in the bball world). There was no indication that he was remotely interested in coming here for the mid-level and a reserve role. And Shaq’s tendency to talk $h!t about his team when he gets unhappy makes the prospect of bringing him here under those conditions not-too-palatable.

I really don’t think money was the issue, because Shaq brings you more money than he costs, even considering the luxury tax. I think it was simply that we couldn’t offer him what he wanted given our roster and cap situation.

niremetal

November 23rd, 2010
1:34 pm

And not for nothing, but no teams were exactly banging down the door to get Shaq. There’s a reason for that.

Astro Joe

November 23rd, 2010
1:36 pm

From a practical perspective, I’m not sure what should happen in the next 3-4 weeks. On December 15th, all players who signed late free agent deals are eligible to be traded. If you make a trade before then, you conceivably are limited in your options. So I could see waiting another 3-4 weeks before making a roster-altering move. but that puts the ball firmly in LD’s court in terms of adjusting the line-up and playing time. I just hope that he doesn’t scape-goat Marvin while everyone else gets the same playing time.

It also feels like it’s time for us to read about the obligatory “players only” meeting. That medicine usually lasts about as long as 2 Tylenols.

Melvin

November 23rd, 2010
1:54 pm

Astro,

You are a funny dude…LOL

O'Brien

November 23rd, 2010
2:08 pm

Realistically, I think Rick and LD will ride things out until the trade deadline, and see where we stand then.

But LD has the power to control the lineup, so he will have to try some different things. The players are too comfortable, so LD needs to figure out a way to light a fire under their tail.

nire,

If we did a sign and trade for Shaq and Marvin, maybe we could have gotten Jamario Moon back in the deal.

If we didnt get one back, we would still have our MLE and Bi-Annuals, so we could have signed Rodney Carney to play SF, or we could have offered Matt Barnes the starting SF spot (which I think he would have taken). Or we could have offered Chills a contract.

Would we really let losing Marvin and his $28 mil contract stop us from making a move? All the Hawks needed was to be proactive and creative (and be willing to spend a little extra), if they wanted to make a move for Shaq.

O'Brien

November 23rd, 2010
2:10 pm

“And not for nothing, but no teams were exactly banging down the door to get Shaq. There’s a reason for that.” niremetal.

Were teams banging down the door to sign Marvin, Bibby, or ZaZa when we resigned them for the years and money we did?

doc

November 23rd, 2010
2:14 pm

nire i agree he wanted big bucks that were impossible to meet under present constraints say without the trade of marvin it would seem. 8 mil for 8 mil. that was rumored to be a possibility. if that were a possibility it might be reasonable for what we have gotten from marvin this year. need a sf though somewhere, maybe instead of collins and etan you could have fiilled that void and maybe not throw money away on sy and get a real back up point guard retread somewhere? it would have taken the decision out of his hands?

you said though:

I really don’t think money was the issue, because Shaq brings you more money than he costs, even considering the luxury tax. I think it was simply that we couldn’t offer him what he wanted given our roster and cap situation.

isnt this contradictory? you either got it or you dont. didnt you say the opposite here? if money wasnt the issue then how couldnt we not offer it to him because of cap. teams go over cap if they have the money, dont they?

Astro Joe

November 23rd, 2010
3:35 pm

Looking beyond the Nets & Wizards, the good guys should be able to run off a 6-game win streak (including the aforementioned foes) before facing the Heat and Magic. But heaven help us all if we lose tonight against the Nets… the AJC blog platform may cave under the weight of angry comments.

http://espn.go.com/nba/team/schedule/_/name/atl/atlanta-hawks

Astro Joe

November 23rd, 2010
3:45 pm

Pardon me if this one has already been posted. It sounds like Sund is dealing with some family concerns, I hope all turns out well in that regard.

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/11/22/josh-smith-says-hawks-told-him-trade-rumors-are-false/?utm_source=bleacherreport.com

O'Brien

November 23rd, 2010
4:01 pm

doc,

I find it hard to believe that if the ASG offered Shaq $7 mil (in a sign and trade) and promised him 24 minutes of PT at center, that he would have turned us down.

And if I’m Shaq, why would I take the vet minimum to play for the Hawks, when I can make the same money on a better team, with more exposure, and a chance to win a title.

As for possible trades, the Hawks dont have much to offer right now.

Marvin has very little value, and Jamal’s biggest value is his expiring, which means the Hawks would probably have to take up additional salary. And I dont think they will do that considering the new CBA.

AJ,

Hope all is well with Sund. But I saw this excerpt in your article;

“They told me that it was all false,” Smith said Monday in an interview with FanHouse about the trade rumors. “That they want to keep this team and this nucleus together because they feel we have something special going.”..

I’m sure Jamal is tired of hearing that, because he is not getting an extension. And as a fan, I’m tired of hearing that, when I see what’s going on the court.

The bad thing is, the players probably believe Sund.

doc

November 23rd, 2010
4:03 pm

i keep following you around today saying, yeah o’b, great points.

Astro Joe

November 23rd, 2010
4:14 pm

OB, yep, that stood out like a sore thumb when I read it. But the ASG has not had to deal with poor home performances (in the regular season at least) over this recent run of success. Last night had to be quite humiliating… with Ted Turner making a very, very rare appearance and several of the local celebrities out to watch (and be seen). Can Gearon do nothing while watching the Hawks get behind by 15-20 points on the home court against the better teams? Surely, that will impact forecasted home revenues for the season, right?

Melvin

November 23rd, 2010
4:44 pm

OB, doc and Astro, I co-sign all you all post today. And Northcyde made some very good points in regards to the Hawks offseason moves or lack there of. Seems that every team that’s consider elite made offseason moves to their main rotational players. Heck, even the Spurs decide to bench McDyess for Blair (who many had questions about his knees). The Hawks maintain status quo then justify it by saying “WE Like Our Core”. As if this core has won a championship, let alone a game in the 2nd round of the playoffs. There was an opportunity to really change the personnel and leadership of this team this summer but the Hawks preferred (as Astro would say) the sameness.

SMH, while counting my money that would have went towards purchasing a Hawks ticket plan and doc expensive pretzels…

niremetal

November 23rd, 2010
4:54 pm

Doc/O’Brien,

First off, doc, not exactly sure how you conflated “cap situation” and revenue generation. Do you actually think that those two are the same so that “you either got it or you dont?” Shaq would bring in a lot of revenues. That would not change the fact that since the Hawks are about $15M over the cap, we were not allowed to offer Shaq more than the MLE as a free agent. Thus, the only way to get him for more than that (and by all reports, he was demanding more than that to come to Atlanta) would have been in a sign-and-trade. The only “asset” we could offer them that anyone around here would remotely consider (since no one wants Shaq at the price of Josh or Al) is Marvin. And on that note…

The NBA 2k10 mentality that you guys have sometimes is incredible. You do realize that two teams have to agree to a trade, right? It’s amazing how much you talk about why Marvin-for-Shaq would make sense for the Hawks (maybe they’d even throw in Jamario Moon!), but not one word about why the Cavs would want to accept Marvin’s 4 year contract Why on earth would the Cavs, who supposedly have been trying to dump Jamison’s contract ever since LeBron hopped on I-75, be interested in taking on Marvin’s contract? Rebuilding teams don’t take on large long-term deals for borderline starters at a dime-a-dozen position. Why would they take on Marvin’s 4-year $30M contract? I mentioned that as being a problem in my initial post, but nah that can’t possibly be a roadblock. Little details like the other team having to agree to a trade strangely seem to escape the thought processes of some people around here.

Were teams banging down the door to sign Marvin, Bibby, or ZaZa when we resigned them for the years and money we did?

Three things. First, word got out that those three guys were staying in Atlanta within 2-3 days of the free agency period opening. Shaq was on the market for over a month. Apples and oranges.

Second, there were teams interested in Zaza and Bibby. I remember one specific report (which I can’t find now) that Philly had approached Bibby but got rebuffed when Bibby told them he was staying in Atlanta. I can’t find that story specifically, but this ESPN article also states that other teams were interested in Bibby:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4310653

Selective memory much? As for Zaza, again I can’t find the specific story on him but he definitely had been drawing interest – Sheed (I’ll say he’s a C for the sake of argument), Gortat, and Zaza were the only rotation centers on the market that summer.

Third, since Marvin was restricted, he doesn’t even belong in the same group as Bibby or Zaza, much less Shaq. We gave him a couple clicks above the MLE, which is the most other teams could have offered him. Anyway, your obsession with thinking we overpaid for those guys is more amusing than anything at this point, because your memory of, you know, actual events has been incredibly warped so that it lines up with your preconceived notion that we overpaid for them (which, in hindsight, we did at least in the case of Bibby and Marvin).

niremetal

November 23rd, 2010
4:55 pm

Ah, here’s that Philly/Bibby story, kinda. It’s the RealGM summary of a Philadelphia Inquirer article which appears to have been removed from public viewing:
http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/60303/20090703/source_bibby_wants_to_stay_in_atlanta/

doc

November 23rd, 2010
5:13 pm

was asking for your input nire in a pleasant way not to be slandered, but cool. also i know the constraints; it was conjecture on how it could work to try and get him the money he wanted while upgrading the roster. i know it is stretch for you to think shaq could upgrade anything but anyway just conjecture. i guess i could ask if we ever offered the mle or a trade and did he or they turn it down? or did we really think shaq would come here and play with twin for the same money? thanks as always for your comments, very informative even with the invectives.

niremetal

November 23rd, 2010
6:10 pm

I’m flying to Atlanta tomorrow and have aviophobia, doc, so I’m even more on edge than usual now. Sorry if I snapped too hard.

Big Ray

November 23rd, 2010
6:48 pm

New blog up…