“We’re not playing hard enough”, say the Hawks

Is that all it has really come down to? Every time you turn around, some guy wearing a Hawks jersey is saying, “we’re not playing hard enough.” Oh, wait just a second. I forgot the rest of what has become a sickening cliche. They’re not playing hard enough “…all the time.”

Really. Is that your final answer?

It’s amazing. A fan base that is constantly accused of not caring enough is now being told by the team’s players that apparently, they don’t care enough. For all the criticisms of the moves that the Atlanta front office made or didn’t make (for whatever reasons), nothing is as ominous as that which just keeps coming up in print after every game, win or loss. The assertion being made at the moment is that it’s not about what the Hawks can’t do, it’s about what they won’t do.  Now of course, your first indication might be to point to the Hawks’ record, which at 7-4, would not indicate that things are nearly as bad as we make them sound. That is, until you examine precisely who the Hawks have beaten, and in what fashion.

Let’s not push the panic button. Why? Not because it’s too early in the season. That would be the easiest cliche to latch onto. No, we don’t need to push the panic button because panic is what happens when that what you least expected and least predicted to happen, is exactly what happens. It’s when you have nearly every reasonable expectation of being safe, then finding out you’re in a lot of danger. Panic is when you don’t know what to do. But the Hawks swear up and down that they do know what to do. They just won’t do it…all the time.

 A mere eleven games into the season, Larry Drew sounds like a man who isn’t beaten yet, but you have to wonder just how much he can take. The man has listened to and observed the same issues for the last six years. Now, as head coach of the same crew, he has to find a way to convince a group of guys to do the very things they already seem to know that should be doing.

The Fault Line

Where do you place Larry Drew on the infamous “fault line?” Is he doing his job? Has he given the team a good guideline and gameplan? Despite the turnovers, which some would argue are a natural by product of the situation and obligatory learning curve, Drew’s offense seems to take better advantage of the team’s talents than we’ve ever seen before. With the exception perhaps of Jamal Crawford, guys “get theirs” without having to make a concerted effort to do so. In fact, it’s good enough to where some teams find themselves going to a zone offense just to slow Atlanta down. All during camp and preseason, everything out of the mouths of the players suggested that they were very pleased with the new offensive scheme. Okay, so then why deviate from it?

Defensively, Drew has decided against scheming to hide the abilities or efforts of some players, and simply holding guys accountable for defending. It doesn’t always work (the argument here is usually that it centers on ability), but there have been concerted flashes of effort from previously unlikely sources. So is Drew to blame here? What is he doing wrong?

Two guys need to be paying very close attention right now. Michael Gearon and Rick Sund. If you think the idea of the core of this team comes from Rick Sund, you might want to think again. Two theories abound here. Either Sund has come up with the idea of the core of Hawks players, and has sold Gearon on the concept…or the concept is Gearon’s , and Sund simply complies with his wishes, offering little or no input. Perhaps neither theory matters at the moment. What does matter is how much attention these guys are paying to what their players are saying and doing. Obviously the answer to the fan base during the offseason, was that the team as constructed merely needed a new guide. Now the new guide is saying some of the exact same things the old guide was saying. Again, didn’t the new guy bring a new plan? Didn’t the players say they liked the plan? Has there been any evidence to suggest that the new plan is ineffective or otherwise flawed?

All this time, we as fans screamed for changes, horrified at the efforts and results of last season’s playoffs. Sure, there was a lot of hollering about coaching, and that had plenty of merit on it’s own. But there was also a lot of hollering about the roster. Of course, that was when times got tough, especially at the end of the season. Here we are at the beginning of the season, and already the looks have started, with the finger pointing right around the corner. And the noise…the noise is coming from the players themselves.

Is this overreaction? Analyzing too early? Well, after which of the Hawks seven wins has there not been a caveat of some type attached, by the players themselves? Why all this noise from a group of guys with a winning record so far? And what ever happened to being one of the best home teams in the League? Seven games in, the Hawks are an even 3 and 3 at home, and 4 – 1 on the road. Should we rejoice in this?

 

HAWKS VS PACERS

Every year there seems to be a team that flies under the radar for a while, before coming up strong. Arguably, the Bucks were that team in the East before suffering the loss of starting center Andrew Bogut at the most inopportune of times. This year, the sleeper team is not what some would call a sexy pick. It’s amazing what an offseason will do for some teams, and some players. Everyone watches the wonder that is John Wall up in Washington, D. C. Chicago’s once bright future is in doubt with the loss of newly signed Carlos Boozer, and the fact that they still must lean too heavily on pg Derrick Rose. But what of Indiana?

No one on their squad short of Danny Granger gets any headlines, yet here the Pacers are, chugging along with a .500 record, not quite the one dimensional joke that they were last season. Indiana has only been truly blown out in one game, a 101-75 loss in Philadelphia back in early November. On the other end of the spectrum, they completely crushed Denver 144-113 about a week later.

Here’s the deal with Indiana – you can’t just game plan to contain Granger and let the rest of the guys do their thing. For the first time in a while, the Pacers have a fairly solid starting lineup. Guess what that means? They also have a somewhat viable bench, as the guys they were forced to start last year are now reserves. Let’s get into the key players.

Backcourt

The addition of Darren Collison to the Indiana lineup has given the Pacers a solid pg with some decent size and shooting capability. Collison has yet to show exactly where he belongs in the East pecking order of point guards, and doesn’t figure to be too very high in a field that boasts Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, John Wall, and other credible names (forgive me if I don’t mention them all). But, Collison has proven that last season was no fluke, when he filled in admirably for the injured Chris Paul in New Orleans. Third on the team in scoring and first in assists, Collison is shooting quite well from the field and adds some credible defense as well. Collison’s play allows the Pacers to bring the lightning quick but fragile TJ Ford off the bench, instead of burning him with starter’s minutes.

Point guard play isn’t the only thing that has improved Indiana, though. The return of guard/forward Mike Dunleavy gives them another legit perimeter threat with size. The heady Dunleavy can play the two or the three, and makes it even harder for defenses to key in on Danny Granger. As a result, Granger is shooting 48% from the field and 42% from beyond the arc, scary numbers indeed when you’re talking about a guy with his talent. But that’s not all. Dunleavy also defends a bit, and provides both passing and is a legit rebounder. Better yet, he allows the Pacers to choose between Dahntay Jones and Brandon Rush when deciding who to bring off the bench, rather than having to thrust either one into the starting backcourt.

The Frontcourt

Literally the biggest story for this franchise is the seemingly quite sudden transformation of center Roy Hibbert. Gone is the slow, soft, and largely ineffective first round project that we saw last season. In his place is a guy who is second on his team in scoring, first in rebounding, and someone who looks like he could keep New Jersey’s Brook Lopez from making the all-star team a second year in a row. Whatever Hibbert did in the offseason has paid off, and it’s showing even against the better front lines in the NBA, as his potential looks to be catching up with his size.

Beside Hibbert is the energetic, athletic, and physical specimen known as Josh McRoberts. He’s neither Troy Murphy nor Jeff Foster, but what McRoberts gives up in scoring talent and outright rebounding/toughness, he’ll make up for with hustle and effort. Behind him is Tyler Hansbrough, a smart hustler who shoots a very high percentage from the floor, and provides enough rebounding and effort when McRoberts inevitably gets into foul trouble.

Here’s the Deal

The Hawks are still more talented than the Pacers. I believe they’re still 10 to 12 points better on a given night, in which they play as they should. But the Pacers are on the cusp of proving to be a team that can’t be ignored or run roughshod over anymore. They’re healthier, they’re deeper, they’re experiencing some success, and they would like some more. If the Hawks lose focus in this game, they will lose this game, plain and simple. If they “don’t play hard enough”, I’ll wager that the Pacers will embarrass them. Now is not the time for this foolishness, and this ain’t Minnesota, where the talent pool alone all but guarantees a win for the opposing team.

Matchup to Watch – Al Horford vs. Roy Hibbert

Last season, Al Hoford made Roy Hibbert look like a draft bust, despite giving up a solid 4-5 inches and probably 40 pounds to the 7′2″ 280 lb center. Will the Hawks start Horford at center against Hibbert, and will it have the same results? Hibbert still gives up the quickness and ability to run the floor to Horford, but his improved game could be a load for Al on the other end of the floor. Could Hibbert force the Hawks to adjust the matchups?

For the sake of Afterthoughts – Jeff Teague vs. TJ Ford

Quick meets quick. Undeniably, Ford has the better jumpshot right now, but his quickness is a problem anytime he’s on the court. He’ll shoot past Bibby and make Jamal run through one screen too many, so maybe Teague gets another shot to make his presence felt here by keeping Ford from running the Hawks into the ground while Collison gets some rest. In fact, without such an effort, the Hawks could get into all sorts of trouble on the defensive end.

On the other side of the ball, Teague simply must improve his attack. The kid knows how to pass the ball, often to the right people and at the right times, but he continues to be no threat to score.

311 comments Add your comment

wordsmithtom

November 15th, 2010
5:01 am

Concerns abound, but no panic button here. Bench didn’t lose that 15 point lead….nor did it create that stinking 10 point opening deficit. 2rd and 3rd quarter Hawks outscored Wolves. It was starting unit that didn’t clamp down.

As I have said several times, I expect the first half of the season to be a journey, with ebbs and flows, as the team adjusts to a different style of play. MW played better before he hurt knee. He was still gimpy last two games. Teague still a concern; can he become more aggressive on the offensive end? I like the idea of throwing him in early against Ford. We NEED TO KNOW if JT is the answer before addressing the JC1 issue. It is my hope we can move him for a more aggressive backup 3 (I really doubt we can obtain a viable 5 for him…few GM’s are stupid) , as our weakest link is at 1 and 3. When they extended Horf, the handwriting was on the wall. He’s our future. JC1 remains a hired gun with limited ammunition.

For the next six weeks, we’ll see sausage being mad. Nothing that will help our fan base grow comfortable, but part of the growing process.

Strong effort by Horf yesterday. 10-10 FT after that Utah flub…still we can’t blame that loss on Horf’s FT misses alone. A lot of blame to pass around.

I predict this team stays together, for the most part, through the season. We do see some kind of adjustment by Feb, however, as we will know about JT by then, and whether MW and Mo can handle the 3 by themselves.

vava74

November 15th, 2010
6:45 am

Jamal must go. Pronto. Until that happens, we will not make any progress.

We have a problem at the PG spot, something we know since last year.

Bibby’s shot has gone AWOL again worsening the problem and when he comes out, in goes Jamal who stops running the motion offense and has been playing with little if any passion on both ends.

It should be Teague coming in for Bibby to bring defensive effort (if not constant results) and to keep the offense flowing.

His drive and dish game and his good passing (when he is not deferring too much in a state of numbness and making half hearted entry passes) suits the motion D.

If that fails, then we can simply limp into the end of the season.

Hawk n the Ham

November 15th, 2010
6:53 am

Does Larry Drew need to call the player’s mamas in the film room? Maybe that will straighten them out.

vava74

November 15th, 2010
6:55 am

By the way:

Josh has major concentration issues. My impression is that Josh’s mind wanders off when we are up by 10 or so in the 4th quarter and that is when he starts to make stupid mistakes.

However, I have faith the he will improve as the season progresses.

vava74

November 15th, 2010
6:56 am

Hawk n the Ham,

Yeah, we always get the feeling that the Hawks is just a bunch of kids… who need some stern “motherly love” (ie. some pulling of the ears)…

wordsmithtom

November 15th, 2010
8:19 am

Vava74, Woodson “ate the seed corn” by not playing Teague and riding his core 8. We’re paying for that now. Yes, we knew there was this problem at point. They can’t pull the lever on JC1 until they know the answer to “is Teague ready”.
We knew this would be a work in progress. We did not know we’d deal with injury at the weakest depth link (3). This complicates the trade decision, but does not put it off for long. You’ll get a trade by Feb….

Willie Coyote

November 15th, 2010
8:20 am

The fact that the effort still isn’t consistent is what is most maddening. That is unacceptable and everyone on the roster is guilty. Their mental makeup is not adequate to be a true contender.

Take notes from Boston’s level of professionalism; they truly commit to defending and play as unselfishly as anyone. That is the team to immulate (not that circus in South Beach).

I wonder what trades are available for this team.

Willie Coyote

November 15th, 2010
8:23 am

Has anyone else noticed that Josh’s perimeter shot is all of a sudden better than Marvin’s? That was supposed to be one of Marvin’s strong points but he can’t seem to make an open shot anymore either.

vava74

November 15th, 2010
8:37 am

wordsmithtom,

Teague will never be ready with Jamal subbing Bibby before him

O'Brien

November 15th, 2010
8:53 am

“expect the first half of the season to be a journey, with ebbs and flows, as the team adjusts to a different style of play.” wordsmithtom .

Fair enough. But adjusting to a different style of play does not explain or excuse their lack of effort at critical points during the games.

vava74,

One of the issues I have with Josh, is in his mind, he believes he can get away with some of the bad plays/bad shots because of the amount of good plays he makes.

I think his mindset needs to change. He was improved his game just about every offseason, but he should not focus on the good plays as much. Instead, focus on the bad plays during the course of the game, and improve on it going forward.

O'Brien

November 15th, 2010
9:09 am

Doc, from the previous blog.

The reason why Utah got Jefferson for nothing, is because when Boozer left for Chicago, the Jazz got a player exception (I think it was for $10 mil), which they traded to Minny for Jefferson.

Ironically, the Hawks have a $3.6 mil TPE from the Childress deal, and I would not be surprised if they let it expire.

I’m not sure Horford and Jefferson would be a good combination though. Jefferson might be a better front court scorer than Josh, but Josh is a better help defender, and has the higher ceiling with his versatility, and health.

And on this team, given our lack of perimeter defense and inconsistent PG play, I think Josh is a better fit.

There would be some flexibility because both Horford and Jefferson can play PF or center, but I would not have traded Josh for Jefferson.

dstdeelite

November 15th, 2010
9:32 am

I love my Hawks but until they decide to defend for 48 minutes (or 42 according to Zach Randolph), we will continue to get trounced in the playoffs.

O'Brien

November 15th, 2010
9:43 am

It is disappointing that 11 games in, we are already talking about a 4 game losing streak, and facing adversity. However, something like this could make us better in the long run.

So far, the Hawks have won on the road (and competed well in Orlando), so maybe not having homecourt may not be as big an issue as it was under Woody.

If it costs a few wins to get the bench ready for the playoffs, I’m okay with that. However, that does not change my expectation of this team.

Regular season wins are important, but I expect this team to get to the second round of the playoffs, and win a couple games. Anything less, will be a disappointment imo.

And after winning 53 games last year and getting blown out in the playoffs, I think LFD will be judged on how he does in the playoffs.

Astro Joe

November 15th, 2010
10:45 am

Didn’t we win like 18-19 road games last year? It wasn’t great but it wasn’t as if we won 12 either.

The Hawks are proving me right… it’s the players. Both individually AND as a collective unit. Lack of leadership, lack of fire and the lack of toughness will limit this squad’s altitude far more than coaching strategies. The players seem far too comfortable sneaking by on their considerable personal talents, only to realize that most other teams can compete on pure talent and those that can’t (see Bucks) have the discipline to execute the schemes designed by their coach. Maybe it is less about playing harder and more about playing smarter. But whichever it is, the problem sits at the feet of the players, individually and collectively.

MannyT

November 15th, 2010
10:47 am

Too early to judge LD. I remember a NFL coach that started 0-5 and turned out ok. I beleive Joe Gibbs won 3 Super Bowls. Give LD time to learn & adapt in his new role. He’s got enough NBA expereince, but he needs time in the big coach seat prior to judgment.

That said, the Hawks schedule is easier in the earlier season. More tough games are in 2011.

Looking toward the Pacer game, this game is exactly the type that makes me nervous (and should also make the Heat uncomfortable.) The Pacers have a real post up center and a quick PG that can score & assist and enough size to defend on the wings. I’m a bit nervous about this one.

On another note…Sactown wanted Teague 4 Thompson
http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-101112-14/testing-early-trade-winds

Astro Joe

November 15th, 2010
10:49 am

Ray, you make a great point. We shouldn’t be thinking “well, it’s just 11 games”, because this is essentially a 3-4 year problem going back to the first playoff-bound Hawks squad. Samec core, many of the same coaches, same problems. The frustration voiced by Drew sounds like that of a guy who is sick and tired of the same ole problems. The same ole whining. But he asked for this mess and knew exactly the challenges when he lobbied for the job… unless, of course, he thought that Woody had something to do with the continued lack of focus and effort.

steve brown

November 15th, 2010
10:52 am

Give me Josh Childress (comes to play) over Marvin Williams (plays now and then), Teague is no better than our previous draft busts at point guard(maybe worse), and we have no real center. Josh Smith will forever win some and lose some with his lunacy in the clutch. We should win 50 again but I would feel better if Jamal was resigned-as he is one of our four best players (Smith, Horford, Josh and Jamal).

Astro Joe

November 15th, 2010
10:53 am

Thompson is averaging just 15.4 minutes per game off the bench and has been shopped by the Kings, who according to one source with knowledge of the talks offered the 6- 11, 250-pounder to Atlanta in a deal featuring young point guard Jeff Teague. The Hawks declined. ESPN.com

Please, say it ain’t so. Thompson and Horford would be AMAZING next to each other. Please, say it ain’t so.

yodaddy

November 15th, 2010
11:21 am

Only trade to entertain is that of a Steve Nash to Atlanta type thing that sends away Crawford and hopefully Bibby (nothing wrong with Bibby but can’t have Bibby & Nash on the same team…we’d have to zone it up all game). Nash is a leader and always plays hard so that is what we need. the Suns might throw in a Jared Dudley or something and we’d be good to go.

Defense will remain the same but there will be a lot less mental breakdowns during games because Nash will run the offense and tutor Teague.

doc

November 15th, 2010
11:41 am

big ray from previous blog;

no, jefferson is not a great defender or known for it but it seems you might have overlooked he played against the two all stars from the east roster of 2010 on back to back games last week and “held his own”. he held them below their avg as his team won against two teams playing at home. didnt we all get glassy eyed about the great job twin did on dwight to hold him to 18 points in 22 minutes while adding, was it no points or rebounds or was that the next game he didnt put anything on the board? guffaw. in direct competition, al j did better than both al h or DH outscoring the latter 23 to 14 and being equal on the boards. i watched him closely against the hawks and he was a presence in the middle and made some good defensive plays down the stretch. if he didnt get the bound he punched it out to someone else. he was solid ray on both ends of the court. he is not as athletic as josh and may not have the upside but he still runs the court well. since we give up so much in josh is why i suggested a guard passing off teague like telfair, corey or luke, all players we have coveted over the years of desiring wings and points. salaries might have fit as well. even the johnson? kid might look better than teague. seems like a nice young player. i also think it would have been good for them to balance josh’s athleticism and bounce with love ponderous way.

for aj, i was reading up on the jazz and sloan gave your guy, tyrone corbin, cred for talking him into the zone they went into to shut down the hawks. where has that been done before?

since i was the one who suggested the mcgee and henrich for teagie and josh i will tell you we wouldnt need a lot of scoring from mcgee but if he can play 35 minutes he might have similar numbers of rpg and ppg as al, allow al to blossom at pf while giving us the post presence eraser if his blocks went up as well in bpg. i dont feel he needs to be a scorer. the starters would be henrich, jj, marvin, al and mcgee with bibby, zaza, mo, powell and jamal coming off the bench. i could live with that, i think.

.keep up the usual good work BR. after reading your thorough assessment, i am concerned that this team is up and coming and you didnt even get solo off the bench to help out either. i might be more concerned these guys in the long run could be tougher than the bucks. we know foster and granger eat us up every time they set foot on the court against us. do they salivate too? throw in collison, ford and hibbert it does not seem like a blow out is in the makings here. i am not sure if you can say confidently we are 10 to 12 better than they are. might want to take that bet. ;-) not a betting man either.

doc

November 15th, 2010
11:48 am

o’b yeah, i remember that about al j. doesnt seem fair does it? ;-)

doc

November 15th, 2010
12:05 pm

aj, i think it was a job interview rather than “lobbying”. it demeans LD to suggest that. you sound just short of samuelesque saying that.

Astro Joe

November 15th, 2010
12:12 pm

doc, I guess I was referencing the rumors that Sund preferred Casey. Unlike Samuel, I recognize that it was time for Woody to go. I just would have opted for a compete culture change and not for an incremental one. The status quo was broken last year and it looks incremntally better this year. For a team that hasn’t made it to Game 5 of the 2nd round, Ithink you need more than a plan that moves forward in small increments.

Astro Joe

November 15th, 2010
12:13 pm

Oh, and doc, witht he ASG, thereis A job interview, but a series of interviews. Kind of like “lobbying”, as it takes time, iterations and negotiating.

Astro Joe

November 15th, 2010
12:15 pm

doc, one more thing, who is playing center for the Wizards when we acquire McGee?

O'Brien

November 15th, 2010
12:24 pm

AJ,

If that deal was offered to the Hawks, this is where Rick’s roster decisions limit the Hawks flexibility. Teague is the only backup PG, so trading him would mean more minutes at PG for Jamal.

If Rick had signed a 3rd PG this offseason, then maybe he would have been more open to moving Teague.

I remember reading that over the offseason, Rick had trade offers for Jamal, but declined.

I think Rick is sold on this team and its players, despite their mental makeup, and despite their history.

O'Brien

November 15th, 2010
12:27 pm

“doc, one more thing, who is playing center for the Wizards when we acquire McGee?” AJ .

Ray had a good point on the previous blog. Although Washinton has a bunch of no name centers behind McGee, how come he is only playing
24 mpg.

Rufus1

November 15th, 2010
12:32 pm

Trade

I would love to have Jason Thompson, but we can’t give up Teague to do it.

joBjo

November 15th, 2010
12:37 pm

Joe is making the big bucks and has to lead by example. Why should the others hustle and dive on the floor if the big bucks guy won’t?

doc

November 15th, 2010
1:09 pm

aj i think of it as going through the process. ;-)

aj, you also know that i preferred a bit of a change in culture if we werent going to shake up the roster. honestly, i cant say anything has changed from my assessment of this team last january except there is more ball movement. even my daughter sees that. unfortunately, there is no significant change in player movement on offense at critical times nor intensity on defense. still a work in progress where they have to learn every possession is important.

o’b and aj, as far as mcgee, i put a big if there when i said “if he is capable of playing 35 minutes”. that is my criteria. i guess if they have 3 guys behind him it would come from one of those three but that would be their worry not mine. ;-) if he isnt able to play 35 minutes then i would not do the trade.

niremetal

November 15th, 2010
1:17 pm

I think Horford has the mental make-up to do what needs to be done. The problem is that, for whatever reason, he hasn’t gotten his teammates to buy into him yet. Probably has something to do with the fact that there are two other captains. The three-headed captaincy is the worst decision Larry Drew has made. Joe should never have been named captain in the first place (and I truly don’t think he would have been offended if Drew had asked him to step aside), and Josh sure as hell has never been captain material.

niremetal

November 15th, 2010
1:18 pm

Oh, and Jason Thompson is a POS. No thanks. Especially if the price is the only PG option who has a prayer of staying in front of quick PGs.

Rufus1

November 15th, 2010
1:35 pm

Bibby and Jamal the Problem…..

I understand they are defensive liabilities and I am willing to accept that if the can hit WIDE OPEN SHOTS…..They have been missing OPEN 3 and 2, those missed shots are the difference between a lose and a victory. They hit those shots early in the season.

We have stated many times before, that if Bibby and Jamal aren’t hitting shots, they have little to no VALUE. They will hit those shots more often then not in the future…WE WILL BE FINE.

Astro Joe

November 15th, 2010
1:40 pm

You make that Thompson trade and then shore things up by dumping Jamal or Zaza. What is not likely to happen is finding one team that can meet all of our needfs, so at least 2 deals would be required anyway. Any chance you could trade a small for a big, I think you do it in a nano-second. If Sund is afraid to pull the trigger on deal 1 then deal 2 won’t ever happen. The personality make-up of this team suggests that the status quo won’t lead to a satisfying conclusion.

Astro Joe

November 15th, 2010
1:44 pm

The Summer of Sameness continues to bear eerily similar fruit. This from ESPN:

Bizarre coincidence or something more telling? The Hawks are the only team in league history to win their first six games and then lose the next four … and now they’ve done it twice in the past three seasons.

niremetal

November 15th, 2010
2:20 pm

You’d rather have Thompson than Zaza??? Have you seen Thompson play? He has the strength and defensive instincts of a teacup poodle. No way. He is a tall leaper with a terrible basketball IQ, no toughness, and absolutely no defensive ability. He wouldn’t get minutes ahead of Jason Collins here, much less Zaza.

Astro Joe

November 15th, 2010
2:39 pm

nire, yep, I would most definitely prefer Thompson to Zaza. I have no idea what Thompson could do in a better culture but I like his skill set far better than what Zaza offers. I liked the path he was on in his first 2 seasons and would love to have a versatile big with upside, size and a skill set that could help this team.

niremetal

November 15th, 2010
2:48 pm

I don’t think Thompson has much upside. He is tall, has a jump shot, and can jump high. That does not equal upside. If it does, then bring me Solomon Jones. He doesn’t even have Javale McGee’s nose for blocking shots, which some have misinterpreted as a sign that McGee is not, in fact, a scrub.

Thompson just doesn’t have the body type, defensive skills, or basketball IQ you need to be a rotation big man on a decent team. He scored some points in his first couple teams, but Urkel could have averaged 10 points a game on the Kings the past couple years. He’s at best the 4th big man in the rotation of one of the league’s worst teams (behind Cousins, Landry, and Samuel freaking Dalembert). He’s battling Darnell Jackson for the honor of being the 4th big man in that esteemed group. He sucks.

Astro Joe

November 15th, 2010
3:01 pm

nire, in a nanosecond, I would make that deal. Teague for Thompson. And then I’d ship off Zaza or Jamal for some PG/win defense help. I hear you, I just disagree. And the good thing, he is cheap and only has a 1.5 years left on his contract (if he sucks like you suggest).

Here’s the thing, if we’re talking about moving a member of the core, then we’re obviously asking for better in return. But if we’re trading someone from position 8-n off the bench, then I’m not expecting to get back Troy Murphy. Heck, it would be nice to see a trade made where we actually get back a player and not an exemption or 17th round draft pick.

O'Brien

November 15th, 2010
4:31 pm

If I’m trading with Sacramento, I want Dalembert in the deal. I would do Jamal and ZaZa for Dalembert, Jason Thomspon and Antoine Wright.

But of course, it takes 2 teams to agree on a trade, and I I’m not sure either of them will like it enough.

niremetal

November 15th, 2010
4:41 pm

I don’t think the trade was ever discussed. I frankly don’t see why either side would be interested.

WALL MAN

November 15th, 2010
4:53 pm

HEY EVERYONE,DONT YOU THINK ISTIME TO HOLD JOSH SMITH SCCOUNTABLE??TREMENDOUS POTENTIAL ,QUESTIONABLE MENTAL MATURITY,NO HES NOT THE MAIN ISSUE ON THIS TEAM ,BUT HE REALLY NEED SOMEONE TO MENTOR HIM NOT ONLY AS A ATHLETE,BUT ALSO AS A YOUNG ADULT

ATL FAN

November 15th, 2010
5:22 pm

Wow, many problems with the Hawks.

No true PG, Jamal stops our offense anytime he’s in the game, lack of defensive effort, Marvin’s jumpshot is completely gone, and Teague has been struggling as well. The only bright spots we’ve seen this year is Al Horford’s mid range game and the new production Zaza brings off the bench. Even if we do make the playoffs, there is no way we can advance even past the first round with this core of guys. The season was over before it even started.

vava74

November 15th, 2010
6:13 pm

A lottery pick who has failed to make it Sacramento after 3 years in the league…

Is it because he is so good that he did not adapt to his lesser teammates?? :-)

You constantly complain about bad moves and think that Thompson is worth giving up in Teague?

vava74

November 15th, 2010
6:19 pm

We just have to dump Jamal and wait 8 to 12 games until the team breaks off the habit and stop being addicted to his scoring spurts in the second quarter and buy in completely into team play.

People may overlook and say that it was worthless but with Teagud loose to work free, ignoring Jamal and balling with Zaza and Jordan, we forced Skiles to bring back the starters.

Teague is just a fed games with consistent minutes sans Jamal to take over.

vava74

November 15th, 2010
6:21 pm

vava74

November 15th, 2010
6:22 pm

Big Ray

November 15th, 2010
6:54 pm

wordsmithtom ,

I must agree with the idea that there would be an adjustment period. As others note, it’s the lack of effort (or the consistency thereof) that is so maddening.

dtsdeelite ,

I wonder how much of that is truly personnel? Can you get guys like Jamal to play defense every minute that he is on the floor? How about some of the others? Everybody is guilty of slacking off at some point, but some are much more horrendously guilty than others.

Big Ray

November 15th, 2010
7:52 pm

Vava ,

I think we have gotten to the point where the entire team is having consistency issues. Josh Smith is an easy target, and part of that is certainly his own fault. When he makes a bad play, it’s a glaringly bad play. Part of it has to do with who he is, and how he makes his mistakes.

But I see other issues. Some of our less likely “whipping boy” targets are having issues. You’ve correctly noted that Jamal seems like a bad fit half the time. Well, he is exactly the same player he was last season, doing the exact same things. Last season was a SMOY campaign and he was second leading scorer on the team. Now, in an offense that doesn’t feature his individual talents on their own account, he is less of a solution, and more of a problem than before.

Here’s where the consistency issue rears it’s head. Love him to death, but Al Horford is not doing the job on the glass. How many times have we seen him get less than three rebounds for the entire first half, leaving the job to guys like Smith or Pachulia? Out of the first 11 games, Horford has recorded double digit rebounds 5 times. He’s been getting quite a few minutes a PF, so what’s the problem?

By contrast, Smith (who as we know is a far less fundamental player in this category) is leading the team in rebounding and has one more double digit rebounding game than Horford does. Here’s the kicker: Smith has spent more time further away from the basket, having seen significant minutes at the SF position.

The inconsistency is all around, I’m afraid. Not just with the “usual suspects.”

Big Ray

November 15th, 2010
8:06 pm

Wall Man ,

Definitely. Smith has to be held accountable for his actions, and I think Drew is doing that. More than ever, Smith has become a major cog for this team. He’s been playing some really good games, and hasn’t had a string of stinkers yet.

Here’s the deal, once again – it’s a collective issue. Nobody is exempt at this point. All must be accountable, even as they are to be held so individually.

Astro Joe ,

True. It is most definitely a player issue.

Which….makes all the arguments about the selection of a coach mean what, exactly?

I still believe that management made a good decision in changing the coaching approach. I think Drew (as perhaps would any other viable selection) has given these guys a reason and a setup that will allow them to be more successful. I also think he has given management and ownership a potentially more exciting product (and it works, when the players do what they are supposed to). I think THAT was part of the sell when it came to giving him the job.

And, though he knew the issues before he took the job, why would that deter a guy from going after a raise, a promotion , and adding to his resume? Drew knew precisely what he was doing. He’s not there to sell the product that ownership and managment put on the floor. He’s there to show he can do different things with that product, than have been done before.

At the same time, issues with players fall right into the lap of front office management. It doesn’t surprise me, as I’m sure it doesn’t surprise you. Where did this “core” concept truly come from? Who likes these players so very much? Why would they not explore the cheapest, least difficult “solution” or change option, before delving into the more difficult ones?

As you well know, much easier (and cheaper) to change the coaching philosophy first, then try moving players around. It’s far less of a gamble, less likely to upset an already fickle fan base, etc. Clearly the thought process has been “let’s see if we can fit a system to the personnel we’ve got, before blowing this thing up again, or changing any major parts.”

I’d say the proof is in, just as you are saying so. The problems exist moreso on the roster than anywhere else. Then again, 25 games later, maybe the solution to such problems will present itself. For now, it’s only too easy to say “ha, I knew it was the players.” Got any solutions?

Big Ray

November 15th, 2010
8:07 pm

For the record, I don’t….LOL. Not any that couldn’t be picked apart in a matter of minutes, that is.

Big Ray

November 15th, 2010
8:11 pm

MannyT ,

The funny thing is, you don’t hear much about Larry Drew being at fault here. The players are telling on themselves so much, nothing Drew does will gain any significant attention. He uses his bench prodigiously, so that’s one non-Woody trait. He plays Teague during serious minutes of the game. Another non-Woody trait. He doesn’t run an offense that tends to bog down predictably. He doesn’t run a gimmicky switch defense all the time.

Drew is being judged almost solely on what he does or doesn’t do in comparison to his predecessor, from what I’ve seen. Is that truly judging him as a coach? Not really.

In the meantime, I share your consternation where Indiana is concerned. This is the type of fire that is either going to forge a stronger unit, or burn these guys straight up. Already, the malignant stares and post game comments have started. Finger pointing is next.

Hawks either rise up or fly apart. We’ll definitely know before February comes around. Definitely.

O'Brien

November 15th, 2010
8:39 pm

Big ray,

Good point about LD being judged by how different he is from woody.

Because there has been a couple games where he stuck with the bench too long (dead in the water). I understand he wants to bring the bench along, but he also needs to realize when he needs to make a move.

Or the Phoenix game down the stretch when he had bibby in playing defense. None of the players went to help bibby, but I think there have been things LD has done as mistakes, but they get overlooked.

Or when he leaves horford on the bench too long. Part of it is he still a rookie coach, and part of it is he is anti-woody. But there are things he needs to work on as well.

Big Ray

November 15th, 2010
8:52 pm

O’brien ,

I believe you’re right. Surely Drew has plenty to work on. I’ll be the first to say I haven’t the first clue on how to find that balance between developing the bench and taking them out of the game when things aren’t clicking.

I do like his response to that – “I need to try different combinations.” I believe he’ll do it, which is what makes me okay with those mistakes (while still acknowledging they are indeed, mistakes). But there I am, doing exactly what I accuse everybody else of doing – believing him because….he’s not Woody. Woody says he’ll make a change, we never saw it. My only defense is that I watched him take Jamal out of his usual spot in the 4th quarter (late in the last game) and go with somebody else (was it Mo and marvin?). That was a departure from what we’re used to.

That whole bench thing is so tricky. How long do you leave certain guys in? Do you sacrifice some leads, and yes maybe even some wins by committing to the development of a particular bench unit? Will it pay off? We’re still handcuffed by the chicken vs. egg argument: Is the bench simply ineffective because they’re simply ineffective, or are they ineffective because they haven’t grown as a unit?

Glad I don’t have to make these decisions, but it seems that Jamal Crawford is the popular villain in this story for the moment. And those who paint him as such may just be right…

Big Ray

November 15th, 2010
9:27 pm

On Javale McGee, this is from the last blog:

O’brien ,

I’ve coveted Hinrich for a while now, but I don’t think he’ll ever wear an Atlanta jersey. I kinda hate the thought.

Josh/Teague for McGee/Hinrich, huh? I do have to say it’s interesting. He gives us a seven footer with a bit of size (and definitely some athleticism). How’s his attitude and work ethic? Now here’s the real question – why’s this kid only playing 23 mpg if Washington has 3 no name centers behind him? His field goal percentage is rich (62%), but beyond his blocks (2.9 per game), there is very little reason to get excited (7.5 ppg, 5.9 rpg).

On this rumored trade offer of Jason Thompson for Jeff Teague:

Interesting. What I find interesting is a few things.

1) Jason Thompson was kept in favor of Spencer Hawes, another sizeable guy who was shipped out. I thought Thompson had showed quite well against us when we played the Kings last season, and was well on the path. He put up 22 points, 12 rebounds, and 5 assists in one game against us, then 14 and 5 in the other.

Dalembert came in the Hawes trade. I don’t if Thompson is as bad as some people say he is. What I do know is that the only person who gets significantly more rebounds than he does, is Samuel Dalembert. And with the exception of the hard-working Carl Landry, none of the Kings bigs are shooting any better than Thompson is.

Sac-Town is in a state of serious flux, and nobody knows what is what with their bigs. I’d argue no way is Thompson any dumber than the goonish and enigmatic Dalembert, who only sees the court because he can rebound when motivated, and because he is the only consistent threat as a shot-blocker. Otherwise, the man is a malcontent and a foul magnet. Seriously, look at the other guys. Landry, as good as he is, manages less than one more rebound per game than does Thompson, despite getting twice the minutes, roughly.

Cousins is a beast and a lottery pick, so he gets his playing time. But 22 minutes a game and 6.2 boards isn’t wowing me. No one of consequence on the team is shooting 46% or above, save Landry (47%) and Udrih (47%).

2) This trade that never happened has Marc Stein and ESPN attached to it. Automatically, the situation is questionable. The Kings do need another pg, but the Hawks need one as badly. The difference is the Hawks may find themselves in a better position to acquire one through trade, than Sac-Town will. But here’s the kicker – the rumor states that the trade “featured” Teague and Thompson. Does that not suggest that something else was involved? Who was it? What was it, that made Sund (or Gearon) say nay to the proposal, assuming it ever even happened?

superiorblogman

November 15th, 2010
10:32 pm

This game should prove to you inferior bloggers that the Hawks will always be an inferior organization. The Hawks picked Marvin Williams over Danny Granger and Jeff Teague over Darren Collison. The PG and SF positions will be Indiana’s 2 advantages at gametime. What a joke you idiots are.

niremetal

November 15th, 2010
11:45 pm

Yeah, Danny Granger. Yeah, THAT is the #1 “what could have been” that I think about with respect to the Marvin pick :roll:

kwooden1

November 16th, 2010
1:03 am

These are my thoughts in terms of these first 11 games, including the fact that I’ve missed at least 6 of the games. The offensive clearly works well, but they don’t execute it all the time. (its not instinctive yet) I don’t think much of stats, but to make my point the HAWKS opponents are grabbing 2 more offensive rebounds, getting 2 more steals and attempting 7 more shots per game than the HAWKS. The HAWKS aren’t an efficient offensive or defensive team at this time. I think that is the reason they give up leads throughout the game.. I don’t think their roster is as bad as some on the blogs say, I would actually like to see the roster for a least 20 games before making any judgments.

For the next 10 games, I would like to see Jeff keep the ball in his hands longer and setup Mo and Jamal more often. I would also like to see more guys stay back to secure defensive rebounds. Most of all I would like to see more consistent execution of the offensive. If those things can happen, I think the team will take another step forward in terms of growth for the Playoffs.

GO HAWKS!!

Big Ray

November 16th, 2010
2:22 am

kwooden1 ,

Good points, all. On the subject of Teague, I don’t think he can accomplish this without a little barking. Mo Evans has few issues with being set up in a position to score, or playing within the flow of the offense. Jamal is a different story. Teague must communicate with him to get within the flow of the offense. If he keeps dumping the ball off to Jamal as soon as he gets across the court, then Jamal is going to continue to assume that the offense is on his hands. Jamal will do what Jamal does – run things his own way. Not out of selfishness or malice, but out of pure habit. Teague has to take control when he’s out there, or he’ll continue to be little more than a byline in the offense.

Big Ray

November 16th, 2010
2:23 am

LOL @ Niremetal ….

Ed

November 16th, 2010
5:58 am

LD doesn’t stand a chance as long as a key player is openly defying the change Larry brought to the offense. JC didn’t get his request for a trade or new contract so he’s going to do as he pleases all the way while attempting to keep his numbers up to last year’s.Really anyone that won’t buy in needs to be benched until they have a change of heart or are traded. Josh IMHO needs to be traded to a strong team that will keep him in check, and where Smith wouldn’t have a problem fitting (his game) end.

O'Brien

November 16th, 2010
7:47 am

Big Ray,

I would be surprised if a trade proposal came from the ATL side. It just doesnt seem like Rick’s style, especially so early in the season.

kwooden1,

I dont know why Teague feels like he has to give the ball up to Jamal. And he can’t blame that on Woody, because Woody is gone. As a PG, he needs to call some plays, run the offense, tell guys where they need to be on the floor etc.

But I hardly see any of it. In transition he is good, because he just goes, and doesnt have to think about it. But in the halfcourt, he defers to Jamal a lot. And in the half-court, he is hesitant to shoot.

We need him to play better as the season goes along, especially since Bibby has slowed down the last few games. And we will need solid PG play in the playoffs

wordsmithtom

November 16th, 2010
8:40 am

Next 3 games will tell a lot about the potential for this year. Tonight is a test, no doubt. And Dallas and Boston pose challenges. We will see if the return of Mo and Marvin will make a difference. I suggest they will, but we will see.

As for effort, the only stinker was the Bucks game; the other losses were close, and we played shorthanded.

No excuses now….

wordsmithtom

November 16th, 2010
8:43 am

Off topic: anyone see that AJC pix this morning of a guy from Kennesaw dunking over GaTech guy in a rout? Ugly game for Tech. Does not bode well when you lose that badly to a NOBODY.

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
9:33 am

Big Ray, going back to last night… hiring the team’s lead assistant was not going to change the culture. Again, I was all in support of firing Woody after the playoffs. There are two steps here. Fire, Woody. I’m 100% behind that move. Now, comes the next decision. Firing Woody and hiring Drew should NOT be viewed as one decision. If the culture was bad (as reported by Al Horford among others) and replacing the players is either expensive, risky or difficult, then why attempt to change the culture by hiring someone who was an integral part of the culture for 6 years? And this doesn’t mean that Drew is a bad strategist… it just means that (IMO) he’s in the wrong place at the wrong time. This team needed a cultural change agent, not a motion offense guru.

Reports of Horford and Smith jawing at each other. Previous reports of alleged chemistry issues. Statements about “not trusting each other”. Confessions of a lack of effort by the players. Someone needed to come in and rip apart the lockerroom culture. Even if all of the players bonded together in shared hatred of their new coach, that would have been better than more of the same player-related issues from the past year or so. Drew was supposed to fix that by bringing accountability. Yet, how many examples of accountability have we seen so far? Is he really going to bench Horford for Zaza when our center produces less than 6 rebounds? When Joe & Jamal get iso-happy, do we really want to see JC2 in crucial portions of a game?

The Drew hiring comes off to me like someone said in a closed-door meeting “look guys, we’re close. If we introduce too much change, we could slide backwards and lose the gains of the past 2-3 seasons. So let’s opt for a modest change. Hire Drew, give him 2 years guaranteed, see what happens with the new CBA and re-group once the new labor agreement is in place and Drew’s contract is expiring”.

But I disagree with the very first premise, “look guys, we’re close”. I’ve said it ad nauseum, this team’s ceiling (IMO) is the 2nd round. Meanwhile, we have another 1.8 seasons to wait for the experiment to conclude.

vava74

November 16th, 2010
9:37 am

I will repeat this to exhaustion:

until Jamal falls off the rotation and Teague is the first man off the bench to relieve Bibby the second unit will not produce and we will continue to be exploited by any team which has a moderately fast PG.

It’s that simple.

Our first unit has come out strong in almost every single game. Then Jamal comes in and all goes South.

There were a few exceptions, but this is the norm.

vava74

November 16th, 2010
9:51 am

Ray,

Horford is only averaging 31 minutes per game.

His rebounding rate per 38 minutes is 11,11.

Josh’s per 38 minutes is 10,74.

Now comes the interesting stat:

Last year’s numbers:

Al per 38 min – 10,67
Josh per 38 min – 9,33

BOTH HAVE IMPROVED (so far) THEIR REBOUNDING NUMBERS.

vava74

November 16th, 2010
10:20 am

However, team wise:

09-10 – rebounds per game 41,7

10-11 – rebounds per game 41,18

There is a decrease on the rebounding average.

If you associate this stat with the FG%:

09-10 – .468

10-11 – .493

You will see that the decrease can be mitigated – eventually – but a lower number of offensive rebounds available.

However, that does not explain all.

Now, if you look at JJ, Jamal and Bibby’s rebounding numbers, maybe you will find an explanation:

JJ per 38:

09-10 – 4,647
10-11 – 3,985

Jamal per 38:

09-10 – 3,104
10-11 – 2,189

Bibby per 38:

09-10 – 3,185
10-11 – 2,996

HOWEVER,

Our back court snatching less rebounds and the front court snatching more could be the result of less switching, in which case maybe the frontcourt should have better numbers…

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
10:23 am

When comparing various defensive stats from this year vs. last year, things are generally the same or a hair better than last season. That is good news, especially when considering the absence of Marvin and Mo. That surprised me, considering that we have allowed some lottery-bound teams to score against us (e.g. 100+ points for the T’Wolves the other day).

O'Brien

November 16th, 2010
10:41 am

wordsmithtom,

As a GT, I have been frustrated with Paul Hewitt. Unfortunately, Tech is stuck with him.

I’m not sure if you are aware, but after they made the final 4 a few years ago, the Athletic Director at the time gave him an automatic rollover contract (basically a lifetime contract).

So if they ever fire him (whether thats this year, last year, or next year, or whenever), they will have to pay him ~$7 mil.

O'Brien

November 16th, 2010
10:50 am

LD was not my first choice as HC. But the biggest advantage of his hire (imo) was that he had a first hand knowledge of the issues.

And when Woody was here, LD was the guy players would go to when they had issues, so there was some level of comfort between him and them.

What I should have kept in mind is that just because he has first hand knowledge of the issues does not mean it will be easy for him to fix them.

Right now, we have no idea how long it will take to change the culture, or if the culture will be changed with the current players.

Its still only 11 games though, so there is still time. I’m just tired of hearing the same excuses this year like we have heard for the last 2 years under Woody.

Will

November 16th, 2010
10:57 am

The main problem for the hawks, is that they do not have a legit floor leader.
They do not even talk or communicate on the court at all.

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
11:17 am

Stupid vava, with his European “commas in place of periods for decimal points” numbers…

Hawk n the Ham

November 16th, 2010
12:16 pm

*In the film room*

LD, “Ok Bibby, there you go AGAIN getting burned off the pick and roll. Do I need to call your mama?”

Bibby, “No sir.”

LD, “I will.”

Bibby, “No sir, my defense is good.”

LD looking over his back shoulder to the door, “Mama Bibby! Mama Bibby, come in please!”

Bibby, “CRAP.”

Stevo

November 16th, 2010
12:39 pm

i was wondering if any of you people still think teague is worth anything? he is wholly incapable of unseating bibby, which would not be that hard for any second year player with any kind of real non-role playing future. maybe some of you will recognize (although i doubt you can be honest enough with yourselves to do so) that sometimes a player doesn’t play that many minutes because he is just not very good. the guy has absolutely NO jump shot, and quickness will pretty much do you no good if your opponent can play five feet off of you without fear. And truly, this was obvious to any of us who saw him play for even a few minutes. yet most of you, somehow, just envisioned that it was just about getting the pt he needed to blossom. i hope you all are suitably embarrassed for yourselves (i know you are not…). and you know who you are.

doc

November 16th, 2010
12:46 pm

o’b, i expect woody knew what the issues were too. a novel concept around here, but he had to coach around them as well, what any manager or coach does. how he chose to manage got him fired. isnt that what happens everywhere? woody wasnt as articulate to the media nor transparent which could be good or bad.

we are where we were two years ago under woody. we win first 6, lose next four. it is the only time in the history of the nba that a team has done that. will we still be above .500 in eight days? could be close.

O'Brien

November 16th, 2010
1:16 pm

doc,

I dont put too much into the win first 6, lose next 4 (although we’ve done it twice in the last 3 years). If we had won the first 4, then lost 4, but won the next 2, the record would be the same 6-4. Or if we had lost the first 4, then won the next 6, same record.

As for Woody and the issues, I dont think he put enough effort into trying to address. imo, LD is putting the effort in, but with the same players, and LD being around for the last 6 years, culture change has been slow.

O'Brien

November 16th, 2010
1:18 pm

Stevo,

Aren’t you a little premature in writing off Teague, who is in his second year, especially since this is the first year he has been getting consistent PT?

And for the record, most of us were not saying that Teague just needed the minutes to blossom. What we were saying (last year), is that Teague needs more minutes so that the Hawks could find out if he is the answer or not.

Do you really think it should be easy for a second year player, who was the 7th PG taken in the draft to unseat Bibby? Give the kid some time.

I agree that so far he has not been impressive, especially on offense. But he is better than Bibby when it comes to perimeter defense, and Teague does a good job of pushing the ball in transition.

His passing is ok, but he has no jump shot at all. However, Rondo’s jump shots are almost as bad as Teague’s. So there are other ways Teague can contribute. He just needs to keep working on it.

Maybe he doesnt develop into a starter. Maybe he improves just enough so he can be a solid backup for 15-18 minutes per game. There’s nothing wrong with that, is there?

But if he doesnt improve enough in time, then Rick needs to make a move to bring a better PG in here.

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
2:55 pm

OB, LD is more prescriptive with the media than Woody was. Woody would say “we want to win the SE division”. LD says how he plans to use specific players and employ specific schemes. But it doesn’t mean that LD doesn’t want to win the SE division just like it didn’t mean that Woody wasn’t attentive to details. Remember when Sekou asked Woody after Game 5 of the Bucks series if he would change his switching defense approach? Woody said “no”. And when Game 6 started, Woody had changed the scheme.

LD is a better salesman than Woody. He has implemented a fan-friendly offense and gives great fan-friendly quotes. But when you look behind the curtain, it all looks pretty much the same. Like Big Ray said, “we’re not playing hard enough”.

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niremetal

November 16th, 2010
5:17 pm

He has implemented a fan-friendly offense and gives great fan-friendly quotes. But when you look behind the curtain, it all looks pretty much the same.

So it looks pretty much the same, except that Drew implemented a new offense that addressed the single biggest failing of Woodson – not just according to fans, but according to Hubie Brown, Mike Fratello, and anyone else with a functioning brain who watched a Hawks game. Except for that one, tiny, insignificant, piddling little change (and getting rid of the “always switch” defense, and actually adjusting his rotations in-game based on how guys are actually performing in real-time instead of dogmatically making the same substitution patterns, and holding players accountable by calling them out during practice in a way that never happened under Woody…all of which were other issues with Woody that were voiced by players and coaches, past and present) it’s all “pretty much the same.”

Oooooook…

vava74

November 16th, 2010
6:48 pm

Less excuses to lose this one:

Darren Collison, Tyler Hansbrough out

vava74

November 16th, 2010
6:54 pm

nire,

Was that really you? :-D

Since we are on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_mark

vava74

November 16th, 2010
7:22 pm

Hibbert is not only 7′2” but he has also huge arms… if he gets his act together on D (and I don’t mean blocked shots) he will be a very interesting player

vava74

November 16th, 2010
7:30 pm

oh my goodness… the minute we get a lead, we fall asleep…

vava74

November 16th, 2010
7:31 pm

where’s everybody?

vava74

November 16th, 2010
7:36 pm

there’s no place like home…

someone give a pair of ruby high heels to Teague!

vava74

November 16th, 2010
7:37 pm

I think I will go TS style and post under several names to keep me company…

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
7:40 pm

nire, until we see how it works in the playoffs, we only have the regular season record to evaluate the coach. And so far, it looks basically the same to me. I recall someone saying the Jamal trade would be good because it would give Joe a little freedom during the playoffs. That didn’t quite work out, he was the SMOY but the playoffs ended the same (and Joe struggled). So yeah, so far, a 7-4 start doesn’t feel a lot different than the last 2 years. And the issues with effort haven’t been resolved by ball movement. The car looks better but runs the same.

vava74

November 16th, 2010
7:50 pm

Our pick and roll D sucks.

Mostly due to lack of effort.

Teague was being lazy or very distracted… always positioning himself in the wrong spot and easily picked.

We started boxing out and then stopped.

Marvin looks horrible…

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
7:57 pm

until we see how it works in the playoffs, we only have the regular season record to evaluate the coach. And so far, it looks basically the same to me.

…except for all the ways in which it’s different.

vava74

November 16th, 2010
8:00 pm

and JJ looks a ghost…

vava74

November 16th, 2010
8:03 pm

Bogus call alert!

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
8:04 pm

You know you’re not giving it your all when TJ Ford outworks you for a rebound…

vava74

November 16th, 2010
8:10 pm

we are being out rebounded 12-25 at the half…

vava74

November 16th, 2010
8:12 pm

Jamal with a (+-) of -9 so far which is just about average to what he has been doing for us…

Collins with a (+-) of +7 so far (he can thank Bibby though)

And, we all know that our luck at the 3 point line will not continue at this level…

Big Ray

November 16th, 2010
8:14 pm

Astro Joe ,

Per your 9:33 a.m. post, you’ll get ZERO arguments from me. ZERO.

As to this game so far…..

I have a criticism for Larry Drew, coupled with a question.

Why, Larry, did you not bench Josh Smith early in the first quarter? That dribble up the court ending in a 20 foot jumper a mere 2 seconds into the shot clock would have been reason enough. Follow it up with another dribble up the court and a wildly errant pass behind Mike Bibby, and I find your conduct (or lack thereof) questionable. Heh….but I’m just a fan.

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
8:15 pm

nire, are you saying the record is different? If scheme were more important than the record, then wouldn’t Eddie Jordan still be in Philly and Jim Cleamons in… where did he coach for 5 minutes again?

This team is GREAT in the first 6-8 minutes…. pretty much dominant. vava, any idea why things go south after the first 6-8 minutes? :twisted:

Let’s hope they can pull away in the 2nd half.

vava74

November 16th, 2010
8:16 pm

Ray,

Because Josh was the only guy rebounding the rock?

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
8:19 pm

Because accountability sounds good until you look at your bench options?

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
8:20 pm

AJ,

What are you saying? Are you saying that the team looks the same? Or are you saying that its record is the same? Can’t have it both ways.

Miles D

November 16th, 2010
8:20 pm

No longer can we blame the coach! Whether it be Woody, Drew, or any other coach the results will always be the same, & here’s why! Its all about mentality! We are not mentally tough & guys don’t seem to want to be! They are mentally fragile, period! When hit with a challenge they give up! When teams get physical with them they give up! But, it goes much deeper than that. Its the lack of fundamentals and pure basketball IQ! Marvin ain’t tough, Josh don’t know how to stay on the floor, Bibby is just too slow, Al is guarding guy too big, and Joe needs to step his D up! They can’t defend pick & roll, stand & watch too much on O, & look for someone else to bail them out when out of position! And alot of it comes from guy being too comfortable. They’re not worried about losing their position cause we don’t have adequate replacements! Thats is on OWNERSHIP & GM! Coach can only coach who he has and those who allow themselves to be coached!

vava74

November 16th, 2010
8:24 pm

Astro,

Jamal springs to mind… +- of -9 today in spite of not being shooting that bad with a 2-5 including a 3 pointer…

If had come colder as in past games… yikes!

I’ll now give an example which will annoy niremetal, since he loathes every day life analogies…

My father was an employer throughout his life, with a staff ranging 50/60 working in shifts/groups.

He once told me something which I always thought to be true, after my observations:

normally, the good always level themselves with the bad and not the opposite.

this same principle has been proved right by communism’s failure.

Jamal is the bad apple. He does not know and most of the time not even tries to:

1. Play within a structure;

2. Play D.

That has a domino effect on the team and in particular, I think his presence is particularly damaging to the bench players who have less quality and need more structure to produce.

He doesn’t look to be a bad guy and maybe he simply does not get it, but the fact is that if you want to implement anything resembling a defensively effective team, we need to ditch Jamal pronto and limit Bibby’s minutes, in particular when, unlike today, his shot is off.

Big Ray

November 16th, 2010
8:27 pm

Halft time assessment:

Joe is struggling because Indiana has decided to clamp down on him hard. However, he’s not being selfish with the ball at all, and that is commendable, if nothing else. In fact, he’s made some good plays.

Al Horford is struggling in part because of foul trouble, but also because Hibbert is better. And I mean obviously better. Hopefully Al can get something going in the second half, which he seems to do these days. We need him out there.

Jason Collins is a better defender than we’re giving him credit for, but his positioning for rebounds is less than optimal, and despite losing weight, he has very little lift. As a result, smaller guys are beating him to rebounds. Offensively, he doesn’t give a lot.

Josh Smith has atoned for much of his foolishness by sticking mostly with a low post game that the Pacers can’t seem to stop. His shot blocking has been incredible. His defense has been barely adequate. Yes, there is a difference.

Jeff Teague may or may not have been having a Marvin Williams moment (i.e., he’s playing well because he’s from Indiana). Either way, he was a boost off the bench. But I’m not mad at him not getting more minutes because….

Mike Bibby is playing as well or better than anybody in a Hawks uniform, and I mean exactly that. His defensive hustle has been quite good, nearly intercepting passes 3 or 4 times. Sure, he’s been eaten up on the pick and roll a couple times (foot speed), but so has Teague (what’s your excuse?). Meanwhile, he has been a major boost on offense. 13 points, 6 assists. Bibby is the MVP for the Hawks tonight, so far.

Marvin has shown some of his old clumsiness and isn’t contributing much beyond a few baskets. I’m disappointed. Maybe I shouldn’t be, I don’t know.

Jamal – he hit a 3.

Mo – Stats ain’t showing much, but his defense/hustle is better than most guys tonight.

Zaza – not having an effect.

Powell – good defense for the two minutes he was in there.

Okay, here we go….

Melvin

November 16th, 2010
8:28 pm

Why isnt Marvin guarding Granger? Heck, even Granger is guarding Joe. Very well at that…

Big Ray

November 16th, 2010
8:28 pm

Miles D ,

You think it’s an ownership and GM issue, do ya? ;)

Big Ray

November 16th, 2010
8:29 pm

Melvin ,

On Hibbert….”you told me so.” :)

Big Ray

November 16th, 2010
8:30 pm

Marvin isn’t guarding much of anything at the moment.

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
8:31 pm

nire, every one of my previous posts is about the record… the one thing that matters. And that is essentially the same.

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
8:32 pm

If the bench produces, we should have a W tonight.

Melvin

November 16th, 2010
8:32 pm

Just face it people, Josh is a better shooter….LOL

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
8:33 pm

Melvin, undeniably better. I still would prefer him shooting 80% of his shots from the paint.

lukas

November 16th, 2010
8:46 pm

The way LD is handling Al’s minutes is terrible!!! no wonder why he doesn’t want to be agressive on defense anymore!!

vava74

November 16th, 2010
9:09 pm

I hope that it is still due to his ankle… but where is the Teague that dunked on Lamar Odom?

He now hardly penetrates… he looks like Bibby without the outside shot!

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
9:11 pm

Gee, AJ, that’s funny. Because up until I called out all the ways in which the Hawks look different from last year on the floor, you hadn’t said one mumblin’ word about the record today. Nope, not one. You talked about the culture, the chemistry, the effort, the defensive stats, the offense, the quotes in the paper, and what’s going on behind the curtain. But until I called out the ways in which the Hawks look different, you hadn’t said jack about the record. You only brought that up once I challenged your “it looks the same” statement.

Sorry, but you can’t rewrite your own posts on this blog. Nice try, though.

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
9:19 pm

nire, and what does offense have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that because the offense is different that the team is different? The offense is a paint job… the car is the same. I’ll try to be more explicit for those who need specifics to understand the nuance.

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
9:25 pm

Josh thinks that because he’s hitting his jumper more, he should have the green light to shoot them no matter the game situation, no matter how matter how much time is left on the clock. That’s a problem. He is shooting 45% on long 2s coming into this game, and is 2 of 7 on them tonight.

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
9:28 pm

vava, that Lakers game was when the Hawks were getting blown out and he could go in attack mode. We saw the same a few games ago against the Bucks. When Teague gets minutes in a tightly contested game, he appears to afraid to make a mistake… and too willing to defer to his “big brothers”. But in garbage time, he can be his own man. That Lakers agme (as I remember) was essentialy a blow-out until the Lakers bench gave up too many easy shots and Teague exploited their lack of effort. Van Exel seemingly was brought in to get Teague to treat every game like it is garbage time, but that is clearly a work in progress. And, one more time, Teague definitely plays better when he is either ignoring Jamal (Bucks game) or is playing without Jamal on the floor with him.

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
9:28 pm

Astro,

YOU were the one that brought up the culture, the chemistry, the effort, the defensive stats, the offense, the quotes in the paper, and what’s going on behind the curtain. Not me. You. If the record is the only thing that matters, why did you bring all of it up?

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
9:29 pm

Good win. Much better effort on defense.

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
9:30 pm

Wow, only 7 turnovers tonight. I wonder if that is a season low?

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
9:30 pm

And if you’re gonna say, “well Ray and Vava brought some of that up,” fine I’ll grant you that. But why did you humor them and continue the discussion on all those things without saying one damned word about the record?

Sorry, AJ. You can’t rewrite your posts. You didn’t talk about the record today until after my first post calling out the differences.

O'Brien

November 16th, 2010
9:31 pm

doc,

After a game like this, you see why it is a big risk to trade Josh Smith. He is still young, and has immense potential. If he can ever put it together consistently, he will be almost unstoppable.

MC had a good blog up, about setting Horford free. I dont know why LD does the same thing Woody does and keep him on the bench just because of a couple fouls early.

And the fact is Al is shooting 65% from the field. Shouldnt he be getting more shot attempts?

AJ,

This is still LD’s first 11 games. Change will not happen overnight, even if Doc Rivers or Phil Jackson was the new Hawks coach.

Woody had 6 years, and he contributed to the issues that LD is dealing with (imo). he helped mold these players into the players that they are (good and bad).

Its possible LD contributed to the issues too, but it comes down to the HC’s responsibility.

The playoffs is what really matters, but we are not there yet. Hopefully LD can get the players to buy in to whatever he’s selling.

Although they’ve taken a step back at home, they are 5-1 on the road. That is a big difference from last year?

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
9:32 pm

Oops, 9 TOs.

vava74

November 16th, 2010
9:41 pm

Astro,

My feeling is that we only won because we shot uncannily well from 3 point land…

We were out rebounded 30 – 42…

Where we can see a huge difference is that JJ is not well and within this offense he does not force it too much.

Everyone had the opportunity to contribute:

Collins had 1 jump shot; Zaza had 3 and made 2 within the flow of the offense and these are guys who would never be confident to shoot last year (well Collins wouldn’t even be able to).

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
9:42 pm

nire, so are you saying that the team is different or are you just trying to say that there are aspects that are different even if those aspects appear meaningless in the grans cscheme of things? Kind of like Joe’s red sneakers that he didn’t wear last year. Different, but unimportant.

Melvin

November 16th, 2010
9:42 pm

JSmoove to the rescue….

Big Ray

November 16th, 2010
9:47 pm

Well, of all the victories against non-playoff teams, I’ll say this has to be one of the better ones. Hawks didn’t just pull it out, they ended with a double digit win. I think it would have been disapointing if it had been any less.

Josh Smith once again rises to the occasion for his team after making some mistakes that brought us back to 2007.

I don’t know what to say about Horford’s minutes. I thought he should have played more, but then….don’t we want to be in a position where we don’t need him for 38-40 minutes and still have a legit win over a team we should be beating?

Two things on Horford: his offensive growth has made him into a new weapon, and I think he’s capable of playing extended minutes at PF because of it. However, his rebounding continues to concern me. 30 minutes is still 30 minutes, and I’m not impressed with 6 rebounds. I’m not impressed with Josh having 8 either, and to be honest, with the lack of help elsewhere , we got embarrassed on the glass by Indiana.

Let me put that in clearer context. Pachulia, Powell, Marvin, Mo, and Collins all combined for 67 minutes played, and a whopping 8 rebounds. That’s disgusting, sorry.

Highlights:

Crawford’s 5 assists.

Teague’s better than usual play on offense.

Josh’s offensive game after the first quarter, and his increased overall defensive effort/intensity.

Mike Bibby. All game long, really.

Mo Evans’ hustle.

Good win. Indiana is clearly no longer a team to be trifled with as one pleases, but we also can’t count this as a “proof” game until they show themselves to be one of 8 Eastern Conference playoff teams.

All the same, a rather solid win on the road against a team featuring a legit pivot player in Hibbert (he had a pretty dang good game, though we clamped down on him late) and a legit star in Granger.

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
9:48 pm

AJ,

I’ll answer that as soon as you answer this: If the record is the only thing that matters, why didn’t you bring it up until after I called out some differences between this year’s team and last year’s?

I’m not going to let you change the subject on me like the AJ of old. I thought you were past that stuff. You had NOT been talking about the record AT ALL when I posted my response to you.

Big Ray

November 16th, 2010
9:49 pm

Vava ,

I think you hit the nail on the head. We won because of our three point shooting (thanks to Bibby and Jamal…and even Teague!).

The nice thing about Joe was he really didn’t force much of anything, our offense didn’t require that he or anybody else force anything (unlike in times past), and he also isn’t going to be worn out after playing 43 minutes, guarding Granger all night long, and having taken 20+ shot attempts with defenders draped off of him. Thank you, Larry Drew….

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
9:53 pm

Drew just conceded that he has to “live with Josh’s growing pains”. Funny, I guess the guy who coached Josh during his first 6 years didn’t have to live with those same growing pains.

OB, I don’t think a head coach can convince players not to quit on each other. I don’t think coaches can teach effort. And most coaches will side with dealing with “growing pains” over applying “accountability” and using inferior players. But fans like to hear that someone can bring out the dog in a player, preach accountability and “not allow a team to fail” on the road (or whatever he said recently). It all sounds really, really good.

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
10:03 pm

nire, I’m not changing the subject. The subject was sameness, right? I said the team looks the same, and you assume I meant something about the on-court asthetics. Can you prove that “looks the same” wasn’t in reference to a 6 game winning streak followed by a 4 game losing streak (which I mentioned a few days ago)? Or when I mentioned our 11-2 record last year? Or when I mentioned being in 1st place in the SE division at the All-Star break last year? And maybe I didn’t say that here, maybe I said it on MC’s blog. But I know I have been talking about the record for the past few days. You enjoy internet research, if I failed to mention it in the last 12 hours but mentioned it in the previous 48, what would that mean? I’m quite confident in my focus on the record as the bottom line, with issues like chemistry driving that record. Heck, you may even find some posts from last year where I spoke eloquently about 50+ wins… or during the summer when I asked about 50+ wins. But now, you want to say that because I didn’t mention record in the previous 8 houirs, that I haven’t been conscious of the Hawks’ regular season record. OK, that is truly laughable.

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
10:16 pm

AJ,

I’m saying the Hawks’ record was not what you were talking about when I responded to you. I’m sorry, but it wasn’t.

In the post I was responding to, you said nothing about the record.

You DID mention the offense. You. Yourself.

You DID mention the switching defense. You. Yourself.

You DID mention comments to the press. You. Yourself.

Earlier in the day, in the only other post of yours that I had read on the issue of “sameness” (you’ll have to forgive me for not going back and reading every post you’ve made here and on MC’s blog to see everything you have talked about for the past few days :roll: ), you discussed effort. You. Yourself. You also discussed the culture. You. Yourself. You mentioned accountability. You. Yourself.

But all of a sudden, when I responded and pointed out the differences in offense, switching defense, and accountability – all things you had discussed YOURSELF earlier TODAY – voila! That doesn’t matter. Neither Then, all you wanted to talk about is the record. Something that, in the posts of yours that I had read and clearly was responding to – the ones where YOU YOURSELF talked about culture, effort, switching defense, offense, and accountability – you had not said one. damned. word.

You were the one who first talked about all those things, AJ. Not me. You. Why is it then that when I talked about them, all you wanted to talk about was the record? What’s so “laughable” about me asking that?

Big Ray

November 16th, 2010
10:22 pm

I think anybody who coaches Josh has to live with his growing pains. You know, kinda like anybody who coaches Ron Artest needs to have a psychiatrist who likes to travel a lot between October and April. Hey, I’m not blaming Drew. Dude has made certain changes that I think are beneficial to the team, provided the team stays within his guideline.

I like the accountability, even if it shows just how bad this team can be, defensively. I hope it forces change that only a front office can effect. Personally, I think the accountability has resulted in making Bibby play better defense at times (though not in every single game), and exposes Jamal (while also forcing a smidgen more effort from him as well at times). I’d rather have these kinds of growing pains that all but force the hand of management. No, really.

As for the offense, we lose a game like this under the former coach because we would not feed Horford the ball in the second half, Joe would take 20+ shots and still not be able to carry us, and our only hope would have been ISO Jamal. Just sayin’….

Big Ray

November 16th, 2010
10:23 pm

Meanwhile, back to Astro and Nire…..LOL

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
10:23 pm

This isn’t that hard, AJ. I have absolutely no problem discussing why I think the Hawks are a different team despite having the same record. That most certainly IS a valid point and a good topic for conversation. But come on, AJ. I was talking about the exact issues you were talking about. It’s just bizarre to pretend that you weren’t. If you think all of the things that you yourself were talking about are, in fact, irrelevant, that’s fine. But at least man up and admit that you yourself HAD been discussing those things.

Then, I would be more than happy to discuss why I think the Hawks are a different team in significant ways despite having the same record.

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
10:30 pm

nire, if I offer up 4 reasons for something, and someone challenges those 4 and I repsond with an 5th reason, is that someohow against the rules of blogging? Even if the 5th has been a consistent themse for months? That makes no sense to me. My posts are not about a daily thought for me… I don’t think chemistry issues one day and think lack of effort the next. They are BOTH issues, even if I don’t choose to include them. I still think the dysfunction of ownership casts a shadow on this team, but I don;t discuss it in each and every post.

At this point, you’re not even trying to argue my point, just argue the mechanics of the debate. That’s silliness. The subject isn’t when I introduce an argument, it is the validity of that argument. You want to debate time, I prefer to debate the issue. The issue is sameness.

vava74

November 16th, 2010
10:32 pm

I will intrude:

Last year Astro you were perfectly happy with a product that brought 53 wins, even though many, including myself from roundabout the all star break, pointed that we would not be successful in the playoffs with the “system” which Woody had in place…

Now, all of the sudden you complain about us not being different in a way that you did not thought necessary last year?

Last year’s Astro would say that 8-4 was pretty good and that 50+ wins was all that you needed to be happy…

And, you know the funny thing? Although these Hawks still share some of the most obvious problems of last year’s Hawks, we did make progress in some areas which COULD translate in a better performance in the playoffs.

Our main problem is mostly FOCUS from game to game and within games and no longer a complete inability to deal, for instance, with zone defenses.

Both Al and Josh took yet another step forward offensively – keeping fingers crossed on Josh’s jump shot – and the string of bad games came with BOTH our SF out or severely limited (Mo tonight was clearly struggling and Marvin left the game limping) and with our back up PG fresh from an ankle sprain which seems to have put his mental set up back to zero.

And, we cannot disregard that the two guys missing are supposed to be 2 of the better perimeter defenders in the team.

We have a sample which is good enough to see the progress in some important areas and small enough to hope that the negative things we are seeing can still be corrected.

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
10:39 pm

*sigh*

AJ, you said:

nire, every one of my previous posts is about the record… the one thing that matters.

If record is the one thing that matters, why did you bother discussing the culture, the chemistry, the effort, the defensive stats, the offense, the quotes in the paper, and what’s going on behind the curtain?

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
10:41 pm

And if “every one” of your previous posts was about the record, why did you mention the culture, the chemistry, the effort, the accountability (almost had forgotten that one), the defensive stats, the offense, the quotes in the paper, and what’s going on behind the curtain?

O'Brien

November 16th, 2010
10:45 pm

Vava,

Exactly. Some of the minor changes we have seen can be an improvement for the playoffs.

How many games did we see last year where despite the fact that jj was struggling, we still went ISO jj in the fourth.

How many games last year did we see where woody tried different combinations? He was robotic at times with his substitutions.

So although the results are not there yet in terms of won-loss record, there is progress within the game. Hawks Just need to keep working, LD just needs to keep teaching and preaching , and rick needs to make a move if necessary.

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
10:47 pm

And frankly, on the substantive issue of “sameness,” I’m willing to just co-sign Vava’s 10:32 post and leave it at that. As long as Vava stops using commas where they should be periods in decimal numbers ;)

O'Brien

November 16th, 2010
10:50 pm

Props to Frank Wren of the braves. 2 years ago, our biggest need was pitching, so he goes out and signs Derek Lowe and KK (although they have necessarily worked out as hoped).

This year, we needed an offensive boost, and he trades for Dan uggla, a 30 HR, 90 RBI threat.

Looking forward to the braves season. Hopefully chipper is healthy and plays well.

Ok. Back to basketball :smile:

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
10:51 pm

This is an American blog, Vava. We use dollars for money, miles for distance, and periods for decimal marks.

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
10:51 pm

nire, this argument started yesterday with myh 10:45 am post. From there, I made another comment about the team’s history. doc, took exception with “lobbying”. Big Ray addressed me in the 9:00 hour last night. My post this morning was in direct reference to Ray’s comments. It all started with a post about last year’s road record. But because I failed to mention record today… I guess I am guilty as charged. I guess I need to reiterate every point to every new blogger who addresses me, assuming that they did not read any previous posts. Biy, that should make this blog really exciting, having to read the same thing every time.

vava, my point remains, if you’re going to dump your long-time girlfriend because you are tired of her family, her values and her issues related to her family life, then you don’t start dating her younger sister. Go date someone not associated with that chick. MC said something about a “complete rejection of Woody’s program” and yet they hired his lead assistant. So when those same family issues reappear, are we supposed to be surprised? Disappointed? Hopeful that it will get better by the playoffs? I’m a fan so I fall in the latter category, even though I have my doubts.

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
10:59 pm

vava, I said some of those same things last year. Al and Josh took a step forward. Remember the previous season, it was the Joe and Bibby show. Someone used to routinely post the percent of shots taken by the backcourt… until they stopped because the distribution shifted over the course of the season. Remember when the season started, Al wasn’t even a part of the offense… it changed as the season went on (resulting in an All-Star appearance). Remember how Josh became a point forward last year? That was new and happened during the course of the season. Remember when Josh took awful 3 pointers in ‘08-09? That stopped last year. There were advancements made last season, which proved meaningless when the team was faced with playoff adversity. Excuse me if I have yet to see any maturation in how they handle adversity.

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
11:04 pm

AJ,

I’m not saying that discussing the record isn’t a valid topic. On the contrary, I’ve said three times that it is. All I care about is that you don’t seem to willing to admit that the record was not, in fact, the ONLY thing you have been discussing. On the contrary:

1) You DID talk about the things that I brought up in my first post. You DID cite things BESIDES the record as evidence of the Hawks’ sameness.
2) Thus, it appears that you do view things beside the record as relevant to the issue of “sameness.”

Where in that am I wrong?

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
11:07 pm

I’m more than willing to move on and discuss the substance of this with you, AJ. But you have to man up and admit that you did talk about things besides the record as evidence of the Hawks’ sameness.

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
11:14 pm

Yes, nire, I listed all of the aspects of the current team that seem the same to me as the past few teams. Yes. And I used the team’s record as the ultimate stat to back my assertions. And during the summer, when we read about the new coaching philosophy, what did I want to talk about? Projecting the record. If it doesn’t change the wins, what’s the point? If hiring Drew results in a comparable record, then give me Bill Laimbeer, Dwayne Casey or swing for the fences and give Mark Jackson a try. Hell, call Del Harris. Those choices would feel like a true divorce, and not dating the sister of the ex-wife. And maybe the players wouldn’t be so quick to lapse into their comfortable sameness.

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
11:23 pm

Ah, see now we’re getting somewhere, AJ. Because can’t have it both ways. If the record is “the one thing that matters,” and you have to admit that your earlier statements about things besides the record (culture, effort, etc) were beside the point on the issue of “sameness.” If things besides the record are relevant, then you have to renounce your statement that the record is “the one thing that matters” on the topic of sameness.

In any case, I again just co-sign Vava’s 10:32. I can’t improve on that.

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
11:26 pm

In any case, I’ll take 8-4. And I’ll definitely take the 3-day layoff. Hopefully the guys will come back nice and rested for the upcoming crunch.

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
11:35 pm

nire, if all we talk about is record on this blog, Ray will be out of business. Of course it is all about the record…. but it’s the other stuff that makes for an interesting blog. Surely you’re not suggesting that Ray’s next blog should consist exclusively of “8-4… now discuss”.

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
11:59 pm

Of course not, AJ. As I said, I’m fine with talking about the record. But you’re the one who said that the record is “the one thing that matters,” not me. You cite stuff other than the record as evidence of sameness and then dismiss my use of the same damned type of evidence to show lack of sameness.

And of course, I didn’t even address your straw man line “if scheme were more important than the record” line – the exact type of putting words in my mouth bull$h!t that you promised to cut out at the beginning of this year. A tip: Don’t make promises if you can’t keep them.

Good night, AJ.

Miles D

November 17th, 2010
1:27 am

Big Ray,

U already know! So, when everybodys wondering whats goin on with our Hawks! They ought to just keep that in mind! When ownership makes a commitment to getting us to the next level…then that when we will get there! Til then, same ol’, same ol’. First round and done! If, we even make it that far, but I atleast think we will though!

[...] it for him. Team officials have noticed McRoberts' struggles in other areas of the game. …“We're not playing hard enough”, say the HawksAtlanta Journal Constitution (blog)IC Cold Links: Pacers Face Tough Matchup Against Hawks [...]

O'Brien

November 17th, 2010
7:55 am

Good win last night. And 5-1 on the road gives them the confidence that they can win on the road. They did not have that road confidence last year.

9 turnovers was great to see. If we keep turnovers to 10 and under, we will be in every game.

Josh was amazing last night. So far, he should be the leader for DPOY. A couple bad decisions sprinkled in, but he is still a work in process.

And we shot well from 3, going 8-15 (even Jeff Teague went 2-3). BTW, Marvin is now 2-14 from behind the 3pt line. Where is his 3 point shot? And I’m surprised that JJ has had the struggles he is having.

One concern. Rebounding . Outrebounded by 12.

Hibbert had 15 in 33 minutes, while Horford had 6 in 31 minutes. I dont know what’s up with Al, but his last 5 rebounding games? 5, 6, 8, 10 and 6. He needs to step it up.

I think Josh and Al should have at least 10 rebounds each game.

doc

November 17th, 2010
8:11 am

o’b, yes i agree. i have been one of the stalwart advocates of josh from the first time he stepped on the court. he has something that oozes forward. i dont want him moved. i have also said the combo of josh and al has the potential to rank right up there among the best and got shouted down for putting them on such a pedestal. i am also quite aware that this team is very unbalanced and has no true post presence and al might be playing out of position unless josh become a three overnight, wishing and hoping aside. personally, i want to see how good they can be together over years. it could be very special.

if we are to do anything within the constraints of the budget we will have to give to get because our ownership is not going to go beyond the tax zone. so, i feel josh is the safer player to trade if you want quality at any of the positions that leave us very vulnerable to the big boys at playoff time, perimeter and interior.

yes, it is a very risky maneuver to trade him but again my point is either get happy with what we got or take the bitter pill we cant keep it al and move on. when the team goes sour, some tend to point the finger at josh. if he is truly the one out of synch then shouldnt he be the one to get what is needed? he is truly the guy with trade value. we might fall into something later when folks want to trade something for nothing, we can hope for it. i really think it is ludicrous at times to talk trades anyway but at times i cant resist to stir the waters if only to suggest before you jump realize you cant get without giving.

ray, pretty awesome, you called it. on a good day we are 10 – 12 points better is what you said and that is what transpired. i am glad i didnt talk up that bet. ;-)

doc

November 17th, 2010
8:51 am

o’b, that is the dilemma. how can you expect those numbers when they are often physically outmatched in the post. live by the sword or die by the sword. al isnt going to be able to do those things against the big boys. he doesnt have the bulk or the lift to do it plain and simple. dont put an expectation on something that cant get there. we need something bigger, collins aint it as he is nothing more than an immobile tree

vava74

November 17th, 2010
9:32 am

doc,

Collins was instrumental in getting Hibbert out of rhythm last night.

Posted a +- of +7 in his 5 minutes of daylight.

Got called for a phantom call when he defended Hibbert very well, so his +- should have been +9 and Hibbert’s point total less 2 points.

Just wanted to check if you saw it. :-D

Astro Joe

November 17th, 2010
10:03 am

Drew said that he wanted his guards to release and defend against the fast break, so he consciously traded off rebounds for transition defense. Obviously, it worked. The problem is when they lose in both areas, rebounding AND transition defense. But last night they looked good. Josh is beginning to play well on the road, if he keeps that up, then that could easily take this team up a notch.

Didn’t Horford leave early in the 2nd quarter with 2 fouls only to finish the game with 2 fouls? Drew needs let Horford play through foul problems until he proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is incapable of playing through foul problems. My guess is that Al will figure it out (and quickly).

Astro Joe

November 17th, 2010
10:09 am

Isn’t it about time for Teague’s minutes to increase? Not from around 15 to 24, but if he is maturing under this new regime, it seems like his minutes should be ramping up… but that doesn’t appear to be the case (excluding the extended garbage time during the Bucks game).

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=4015

doc

November 17th, 2010
10:50 am

vava, collins is one dimensional at best, if that. he is improved because he was non-dimensional outside of his weight last year. i didnt see it nor was it given much credence on the summary by MC.

my comments in context of discussion involves the discussion on being overwhelmed on the boards with o’b. when we stop making them we will have to have a plan to gather up the misses. i also didnt get to finish my remarks because i had gone away from the window accidentally and have learned if i go back everything is lost.

o’b, one of the obvious issues with baord work and having undersized josh and al we dont get any support form the sf on this issues. marvin and mo had a combined 4 boards last night. some point guards or tows get that on bad nights.

doc

November 17th, 2010
10:55 am

vava, let collins have a plus 5 in 25 minutes and i will give him cred. the last time we had this discussion i gave you some other ludicrous pluses from games. i never heard back from you.

Melvin

November 17th, 2010
11:30 am

“– J.J. came out on the losing end of his tussle with Danny Granger, who is a big, strong guy. J.J. can’t displace Granger like he can most defenders. The matchup wore J.J. down and frustrated him at times–he and Granger got double technicals in the third quarter.” – MC

I still want to know, why the Hawks stalwart defensive SF was not defending the Pacers dynamic scoring SF?

Melvin

November 17th, 2010
11:31 am

Doc,

In Josh we trust, you know this old buddy. I’m trying to re-arrange my schedule to make it down for the Mavs game this weekend.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
11:49 am

Melvin,

First off, you need to work on your reading comprehension, given the fact that “J.J. can’t displace Granger like he can most defenders” is a clear reference to the fact that Granger was guarding JJ, not that JJ was guarding Granger.

Second, yeah JJ was guarding Granger for most of the game while Marvin was guarding Troy Murphy. Because Granger was playing SG. Troy Murphy was at SF. Which you would have known if you actually bothered to watch the game.

By the way, you still haven’t told me which it was during the Miami preseason game where you talked about LeBron going off on Marvin despite the fact that LeBron scored most of his points while Marvin was off the floor – were you lying or talking out of your ass? You never answered that one. Because it clearly was one or the other.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
11:50 am

*Dunleavy was at SF. Sorry, got my white boys mixed up.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
11:57 am

And, in case you still need to be led around by the hand, Melvin – Dunleavy is taller and Granger is quicker for the Pacers. Marvin is taller and JJ is quicker for the Hawks – doubly so since Marvin’s still recovering from a knee injury. Yeah, it’s real tough to figure out who should match up with who in that match up. From the opening tip onward, the Pacers put Granger on JJ and Dunleavy on Marvin. Hawks did the inverse at the other end. Yeah, that’s real rocket science there, Melvin.

I’ve actually started using the term “pulling a Melvin” when people just start talking out of their ass on a daily basis. Because you’re the absolute master of it, Melvin. You’re in such a rush to confirm your own preexisting biases that you start talking without knowing what the hell you’re talking about. All. The. Time.

vava74

November 17th, 2010
12:21 pm

doc,

Collins:

AT ORLANDO:

MINUTES 21:59 FG 3-6 (+-) +15 2 REB 2 ASS 6 PTS

AT MINNESOTA:

MINUTES 21:03 FG 2-3 FT 2-2 (+-) +13 3REB 2ASS 6PTS

vava74

November 17th, 2010
12:23 pm

vava74

November 17th, 2010
12:31 pm

doc,

just an extract if you don’t feel up to punching the link:

Offense: Pts per 100 Poss. with Collins on the floor112. without Collins on the floor 1 113.3 -1.1

Defense: Pts per 100 Poss. with Collins on the floor 81.7 without Collins on the floor 114.0 -32.2

vava74

November 17th, 2010
12:36 pm

With the above, I am not saying that Collins is the Michael Jordan of defensive Centers.

But I am clearly defending the following:

1. Collins is a good defensive player whose contribution does not translate into stats shown on boxscores.

2. Drew has been using him wisely and maximizing his skills and perhaps it is advisable for the Hawks that Collins continues to get steady minutes off the bench.

3. You can bet your behind that you would not get the same results with any of the Whitesides, Ortons, or whatever young big project you could find on the draft and/or via free agency.

O'Brien

November 17th, 2010
1:20 pm

From MC’s blog;

“Al picked up his second foul early in the second quarter and L.D. again gave him the hook. Horford said he was “frustrated” by having to sit.”MC .

LD is pulling a Woody. Whenver Horford has 2 first half fouls, he sits for an extended period of time.

By the way, in 12 games this year, Horford finished with 5 personal fouls once. These are his fouls for each game; 3, 4, 3, 3, 3, 5, 0, 4, 0, 3, 2, and 2 last night.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=3213

Drew needs to let him play through it for a change. Because if he pulls him for extended minutes against the big teams (like he did against Orlando), it will cost us.

Melvin

November 17th, 2010
2:32 pm

Nire,

I can’t post the link now but I will post it tonight. Until then, feel free to look at last night box scores and you will see Granger listed at Forward and Dunleavy at guard, so I don’t know where the hell you are getting this Granger playing guard mess from. Oh yeah, maybe it’s just to prove your point.

And if the Pacers felt that Granger (who I think you said in the past was weak defensively) is a better matchup for JJ on the defensive side then why wouldn’t the Hawks use Marvin on Granger who is stronger, taller and a good defensive player according to your analysis on Granger? Why wear down Joe by letting him defend Granger the WHOLE game? Ray pointed out to you during the preseason that Joe guarded Granger in the past, so why you referencing Marvin’s knee as an excuse for not guarding Granger is just your way of trying to prove your weak point again. I recall Mo guarding Granger on a few plays last night and he’s a few months removed from knee surgery. So stop making these weak excuses for Marvin.

“And, in case you still need to be led around by the hand, Melvin – Dunleavy is taller and Granger is quicker for the Pacers. Marvin is taller and JJ is quicker for the Hawks” – Nire

“By the way, you still haven’t told me which it was during the Miami preseason game where you talked about LeBron going off on Marvin despite the fact that LeBron scored most of his points while Marvin was off the floor – were you lying or talking out of your ass?” – Nire

Base on your theory, Marvin was the defensive catalyst against Lebron but he’s not a good matchup with Granger who’s similar in height to Lebron but lighter. Are you willing to say Granger is quicker than Lebron? If not, then why is Marvin a good matchup for Lebron but not Granger?

Melvin

November 17th, 2010
2:54 pm

“Second, yeah JJ was guarding Granger for most of the game while Marvin was guarding Troy Murphy. Because Granger was playing SG. Troy Murphy was at SF. Which you would have known if you actually bothered to watch the game.”

Here’s yet another dumb statement where you try to sound like a basketball guru. Please inform us, how you know Granger was playing SG, since the boxscores listed him at forward in which are use by the PA announcer during players introduction. Is this another one of your inside Intel sources that you can’t reveal to the public infer of being cut off from privy info?

Nire, you may not be talking out of your ass but your breathe smells like shit….

Melvin

November 17th, 2010
2:55 pm

Ray,

Blog master got one of my post, please rescue when you get a chance sir.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
3:00 pm

Melvin,

Yeah, because looking at the Yahoo box score is the best way to tell what position someone is playing during a game. Oh wait, no it’s not. Watching the game is the best way to tell. Which is what I did. And it was easy to tell that Dunleavy was consistently assigned to guard the Hawks SF and was placed away from the top of the key throughout the game, which means *gasp* he was playing SF! Too bad you never watch what’s going on during the game, Melvin. Because you think all you need to know about basketball can be learned from reading the box scores and ESPN player profiles.

I never “used Marvin’s knee as an excuse.” But because you invariably show how terrible your reading comprehension is (in other words, because you’re an idiot), I’m not surprised that you think so. I said JJ is quicker than Marvin. I said that fact was “doubly” true because of Marvin’s knee. Do you see the difference, little buddy? Or do you need to go back to high school and take English again?

Yeah, JJ has guarded Granger in the past…because that’s the matchup that made the most sense given the Pacers’ personnel. They have Granger, Dunleavy, and Murphy. We have JJ, Marvin, and Josh to guard them. Josh is the strongest and least agile. JJ is the shortest and quickest. Marvin is the tallest and longest. Given their respective skill sets, the most sensible matchup is to put JJ on Granger (the shortest and quickest of those 3), Marvin on Dunleavy

Base on your theory, Marvin was the defensive catalyst against Lebron

Something else I never said, Melvin. Stop lying and learn to read. And go watch some actual basketball games while you’re at it so you know what the hell you’re talking about.

You’re an idiot, Melvin. A dishonest idiot. A dishonest idiot who talks out of his ass incessantly. And you’re a gutless one, at that, because you don’t even have the guts to speak up and say which it was – were you lying or talking out of your ass when you laid the blame on Marvin during the Miami game?

Which was it, Melvin? Until you man up and answer that, why the hell should anyone care what you have to say? Because you sure as hell don’t know enough about basketball to make it worthwhile.

Astro Joe

November 17th, 2010
3:08 pm

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
3:10 pm

*Given their respective skill sets, the most sensible matchup is to put JJ on Granger (the shortest and quickest of those 3), Marvin on Dunleavy (taller but slower), and Josh on Murphy/McRoberts (tallest, strongest, less agile of the 3).

Oh, and by the way you dumb useless liar – I’ve never said that Marvin is a vastly superior defender to JJ. On the contrary, I’ve said that they both are very good defenders, but that Marvin’s height and length makes him more versatile. The matchup of who is assigned to guard whom varies based on the matchup. But hey, I wouldn’t expect someone as ignorant as you – who thinks defense is soooooooo overrated anyway – to actually be able to appreciate little nuances like that.

O'Brien

November 17th, 2010
3:11 pm

In other news, Eva Longoria will soon be a free agent.

From espn.com;

LOS ANGELES — Eva Longoria has filed for divorce from Tony Parker, citing irreconcilable differences..

Maybe she didnt want to stay in San Antonio after all.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
3:11 pm

*Marvin’s height and length makes him more versatile, while Joe’s agility makes him a better choice to guard quicker players.

doc

November 17th, 2010
3:24 pm

okay vava, i will laugh at myself for going there, only you didnt find a game collins has played 25 minutes, not quite the criteria i requested. ;-) close but no cigar.

in all seriousness there have been twelve games played, collins has played in 7. he has played 20 minutes in 2, 10 minutes in one game less than 5 minutes in 4. please dont try to blind me with those numbers as the sampling error is huge. i can remember when after about five games aj was in a dither about josh’s fg% being so low for a pf. it now rests above 50%. several of us suggested that and astro kind of conceded the point.

please dont try to make collins out to be a world beater in any way with your numbers or otherwise. he is a tree out there plain and simple. his plus minus if a regular rotation guy would not look like that or i would hope LD would use him. he is also a foul machine when in the games he gets in. he is a necessary evil on this team that historically cant find a way to get a legitimate defensive threat in the post. i find your points 2 and 3 valid though.

may i add, point 3 in no way reflects on collins or meeting present needs but the need to be somehow developing a big player instead of having pape sy on the bench filling out that position. that is a sad oversight for the future as point guards from france beyond parker are not nba quality certainly not a second stringer in france. again, it has nothing to do with the discussion on collins and his relevance to the 2010 hawks. i wouldnt suggest any of those guys as having the ability to step in and play meaningful minutes on a regular basis. that also describes collins in a way.

if you point out that collins is a very narrow and limited player with some defensive skill and utility against the perfect opponent for him then fine. specialty artists with that limited range is not what i have in mind to fill the void that needs to be filled. with discussions around al j earlier this year and his inability to play defense, he seemed to have very good games against the best and filled out the score sheet. there are other players that might be able to do the same in limited minutes and limited salaries and i hope we finally land one one day. just now i dont consider collins that guy.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
3:24 pm

You know what? Forget it, Melvin. You lack either the honesty or mental capacity to respond to my posts accurately. You constantly ascribe views to me that I’ve never stated (which means you’re either a liar or an idiot), which is why I feel more than justified in insulting you.

Until you can at LEAST man up and tell me which it was for the Miami game – lying or talking out of your ass – then you’re not worth talking to. Because you need to recognize how often you say $h!t that anyone who actually had bothered to WATCH the game would know was BS. You’ll never man up to doing it constantly (which you do), but you need to at least show that you have the balls to admit what the cause of it was that time, which was the most painfully blatant example from the past few weeks.

Melvin

November 17th, 2010
3:54 pm

“Oh wait, no it’s not. Watching the game is the best way to tell. Which is what I did. And it was easy to tell that Dunleavy was consistently assigned to guard the Hawks SF and was placed away from the top of the key throughout the game, which means *gasp* he was playing SF!”

Oh my goodness, have you EVER PLAYED organizes basketball. Have you not heard of the term CROSS MATCH-UP in some of those basketball books/magazines that you read? Dunleavy played on the wing where most SG’s and SF’s play. The Pacers did not magically change what they do on offense against the Hawks. Granger still played his normal SF position and got the ball in his sweet spots along the perimeter. Only thing the Pacers did differently was have Granger guard Joe (SG) on defense. Nire, it’s very evident that your basketball analysis is weak and you try to name call and be-little people to strength your arguments. So go ahead a write another drawn out post in response to mine, then say how you are wasting your time responding.

“Which was it, Melvin? Until you man up and answer that, why the hell should anyone care what you have to say?”

*just kick my surge protector* laughing at you trying to get me to confess to one of your lame questions, as if we are in court.

Melvin

November 17th, 2010
4:04 pm

Nire,

“Until you can at LEAST man up and tell me which it was for the Miami game”

What is there to man up to? In case you have forgot, my point to you was Marvin defense is overrated especially by some of the bloggers here. If you take offense to that, than you are saying the opposite. You reference one preseason game, proves what? Lebron will abuse Marvin when the game counts and I will be here to remind you of it…

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
4:26 pm

Thanks, Melvin. You just confirmed that in a addition to being a dumb liar who talks out of his ass, you also don’t have the guts to own up when you do it. In other words, you’re a coward.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
4:29 pm

Until you answer the question, Melvin, I’ll be posting this in response to everything you say:

Which was it in the Miami game, Melvin – were you lying or talking out of your ass?

I’m not kidding. Not bluffing. Until you work up the moral courage to admit that you were doing one or the other, I will ask that question of you every single time you post on here.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
4:39 pm

Nire, it’s very evident that your basketball analysis is weak and you try to name call and be-little people to strength your arguments.

Yeah, ok Melvin. You’re the one who consistently gets caught talking out of his ass and who, as vava put it, “only know[s] to look at boxscores when bball is much more than that.” But I don’t know anything about basketball. Yeah, ok.

Which was it in the Miami game, Melvin – were you lying or talking out of your ass?

O'Brien

November 17th, 2010
7:36 pm

My opinion of Collins.

He is a very good third string center, and against certain players (like Howard), he is a good option for 5 minute stretches. Anything over that (imo), is too much of a risk.

But although he does a decent job on defense, he is also prone to fouling. 12 personal fouls in 69 minutes of playing time, with most of them probably being on the defensive end, because he only has 12 FGA.

Oh, and he only has 12 rebounds in those 69 minutes.

I am pleasantly surpised by his level of play this season, but the guy is a third string/situational center for a reason.

O'Brien

November 17th, 2010
7:39 pm

One guy the Hawks could have signed instead of Etan, is Earl Barron. Earl is 7′0″, 250 lbs, and in 7 games for the Knicks last season, he averaged 12 points and 11 rebounds per game.

I dont know how good he is, but we could have taken a flyer on him, instead of Etan. if Etan gets reular PT, I’m afraid he’ll get hurt again.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
8:32 pm

O’B,

If memory serves, we had Barron in training camp or minicamp a year ago and he didn’t impress. I haven’t seen him play with the Knicks yet, but the team did get a look at him.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
8:39 pm

Funny – it looks like the Suns have both of our 2009 big man minicamp rejects on their roster this year – Barron and Siler. Barron has yet to play in a game. Siler has played a total of 17 minutes over 3 games, with 1 point, 2 boards, 2 blocks, 5 turnovers, and 3 fouls.

Astro Joe

November 17th, 2010
9:17 pm

nire, they just signed Barron in the last 2-3 days… I think after Lopez went down with an injury. He’s probably still learning how to shoot in 7 seconds or less.

O'Brien

November 17th, 2010
9:45 pm

nire,

As AJ said, they just signed Barron a day or two ago.

i didnt know the Hawks had a first hand look at him a couple seasons ago, and I never wacthed him play much.

I just saw that he averaged 12 and 11 with the Knicks over 7 games (although it was the end of the season when teams were out of it), but I figured he might be worth a look (instead of Etan).

Dept. of Unintended irony

November 17th, 2010
10:11 pm

“I’ve actually started using the term “pulling a Melvin” when people just start talking out of their ass on a daily basis. ”

“*Dunleavy was at SF. Sorry, got my white boys mixed up.”

LOL, nire pulled a Melvin. Again.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
10:16 pm

There’s a difference between mixing up overrated white boys and talking out of your ass, DOUI.

Dept. of Unintended irony

November 17th, 2010
10:20 pm

“Yeah, because looking at the Yahoo box score is the best way to tell what position someone is playing during a game. Oh wait, no it’s not. Watching the game is the best way to tell. Which is what I did.”

Which is why I thought a PF named Troy Murphy was playing shooting guard.
Oops, well one of those white boys. ROFLMAO. If you have ANY idea what Murphy looks like, how could you think Dunleavy (weighing in at about a buck sixty) was Troy?

Melvin

November 17th, 2010
10:24 pm

“Until you answer the question, Melvin, I’ll be posting this in response to everything you say:
Which was it in the Miami game, Melvin – were you lying or talking out of your ass?”

First of all, what point are you trying to prove with that lame question? I have clearly stated in the past that I think Marvin defense was overrated. Now can you be man enough to clearly state your point of view in this matter and stop cherry picking on mine (and others post) without stating your position in response.
Back to your question, if you want to hear that Lebron scored 13 of his 21 1st half pts while Marvin WAS NOT in the game then you should know that in the 2nd half Lebron scored 15 of 17pts while Marvin WAS in the game. That 23 of his 38pts scored while Marvin was in the game. So again, what point are you trying to prove with that stupid question? Man up and state your view for the record.

http://www.nba.com/games/20101021/MIAATL/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore

Melvin

November 17th, 2010
10:25 pm

DOUI,

I wonder if Nire realize that Troy Murphy got traded to the Nets this past summer…

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
10:26 pm

Which was it in the Miami game, Melvin – were you lying or talking out of your ass?

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
10:28 pm

I meant Dunleavy, wrote Murphy, DOUI. You gonna tell me you never made a stupid typo?

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
10:30 pm

I stated my view for the record earlier in this very thread, Melvin. See 3:10 and 3:11. But since you are a lying dumbass, you probably didn’t comprehend it very well and/or pretended that you didn’t see it.

Now – which was it in the Miami game, Melvin – were you lying or talking out of your ass?

Melvin

November 17th, 2010
10:30 pm

Man up Nire. Man up….

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
10:32 pm

To remind you of history, Melvin, you blamed Marvin for LeBron going off in the first half despite the fact that LeBron scored most of his points during the times that Marvin was not even on the floor.

So tell us, Melvin, which was it – were you lying or talking out of your ass?

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
10:34 pm

I already told you my view, Melvin. Marvin is a very good perimeter defender. So is Joe. Who matches up on who varies depending on how tall/quick/strong the opposing player is.

It’s hilarious that you’re asking me to man up when I’m not the one who either lied or talked out of my ass but is too much of a COWARD to acknowledge it. I have the courage to answer any question you throw at me. The same can’t be said of you, you dumb lying, ass-talking COWARD.

which was it in the Miami game, Melvin – were you lying or talking out of your ass?

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
10:36 pm

Which was it in the Miami game, Melvin – were you lying or talking out of your ass?

Man up, coward.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
10:42 pm

See, that’s the problem Melvin. I never said a damned word about Marvin’s defense in the second half of that game, Melvin. I thought he did a good job while he was on him, and late in the game Drew put Joe on him on several possessions (and Marvin on a few others) to give LeBron a different look.

But that’s all beside the point. I didn’t say anything about it one way or the other. Therefore, you dumb lying coward, I didn’t say anything that was verifiably, obviously, hilariously WRONG. You, on the other hand, DID speak about Marvin’s defense in the FIRST half and blamed LeBron’s outburst on Marvin despite the fact that LeBron scored most of those first half points while Marvin was out of the game. That leaves only two possibilities – you were either lying when you said that, or you were talking out of your ass.

So which was it, Melvin – were you lying or talking out of your ass?

Man up, coward.

Melvin

November 17th, 2010
10:43 pm

Like I said, I think Marvin is not that good of a defender. The game your reference, the guy he guarded scored more points while Marvin was on the floor. Your question has no relevance to the point you are trying to make. You may be talking out of your mouth but your breathe smells like SH!T…

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
10:44 pm

Still won’t answer, huh? That’s what cowards do.

Which was it in the Miami game, Melvin – were you lying or talking out of your ass?

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
10:48 pm

You’re missing the point, Melvin. The point is that you were either lying or talking out of your ass. That, in and of itself, IS the point. There is no broader point that I am trying to make here about Marvin or anyone else. You are the point. So stop trying to squirm your way out of facing your own cowardice, and answer the question.

Which was it in the Miami game, Melvin – were you lying or talking out of your ass?

Melvin

November 17th, 2010
11:03 pm

Nire,

I already said Lebron scored 13 of his 21 pts while Marvin was not in the game in the 1st half (of a preseason game). That’s all you are going to hear from me (I guess you wanted me to use one of your multiple choice answers, yeah wait on that). Again, now what’s your point since you are so persistent on me answering your question? Either you are saying that it was Marvin defense that bother Lebron or you are cherry picking b/c it’s convenient for your argument? Because you do know there are two halves (4 qtrs.) in the game. So pointing out what you deemed as an inaccurate point in the first half of a basketball game proves what?

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
11:08 pm

It’s really not that hard, Melvin. As soon as you answer that question, I would be more than happy to answer every question your small, simple mind can think of regarding Marvin’s defense, who should guard who, or anything else. But first, you need to prove that you have the courage to admit not just that you messed up, but WHY you messed up. Because I need to know what I’m dealing with when I talk to you. I need to know whether I’m dealing someone who knowingly, intentionally LIED, or merely someone who was willing to cast blame and state conclusions without taking the time to check his facts – ie someone who talked out of his ass.

Have the courage to admit which it is, Melvin. I man up when I mess up. I did it right away earlier when I said Murphy instead of Dunleavy – I corrected myself within a minute without even needing to be prompted. I said it was a stupid mistake. I was thinking about Dunleavy, but said Murphy. I actually remember making a similar mistake a couple years ago during the presidential race, when I got Mitt Romney and Mike Huckabee mixed up (they too look nothing alike – it was just a stupid slip of the tongue). People corrected me multiple times, but I kept messing it up – early on the race, I got in my head that Huckabee was the guy with creepily impeccable hair. That’s beside the point, in any case. The point is that when I say something that is objectively, verifiably wrong, I own up to it and explain why I messed it up. I’m confident enough in myself that I don’t feel that admitting such things makes me look dumb or weak. On the contrary, I actually think that recognizing the source of one’s own mistakes helps you avoid them in the future.

The same, apparently, is not true of you. Which is why I keep on you about this. I know I’m being abusive, but I got pissed when you (for the umpteenth time) put words in my mouth in your 2:32 PM post. At that point, I went from annoyed to really pissed off at you.

Hopefully, all of this will show you that the point I’m trying to make right now has nothing to do with Marvin’s defense or anything other than you. You yourself are the “point” I’m trying to make.

So I’m still waiting for you to show that you have the capacity to man up and tell us which it was when you blamed Marvin for LeBron’s first half outburst – were you lying or talking out of your ass? Which was it. Answer that.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
11:11 pm

Well fine, Melvin. Don’t use my multiple choice. But explain WHY you made that mistake. Have the courage to do THAT. Everyone already knows that you DID make a mistake. But you still haven’t said WHY. What are you so afraid of that you won’t answer the question of WHY?

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
11:57 pm

vava74

November 18th, 2010
3:48 am

Well… I think that settles the Durant-Oden debate…

I feel really bad for the Blazers and their fans, specially since before the end of the season we will hear a similar piece of news about Roy.

The Oden news also means that even if Roy goes down, a Jamal for Priz deal is out of the question now.

Big Ray

November 18th, 2010
3:57 am

Wow, UFC ain’t got nothing on this blog. I think I can muscle out Dana White’s business….LOL

Ok, enough sarcasm and irretrievably bad grammar.

Doc ,

True, Collins was useless last season, and has proven to be more than that this season. I appreciate what he can do as a third string center for specific duties. I have no appreciation for Etan, despite all of our jokes about him needing to do nothing more than be a tough practice player, I’m not even impressed with the results of that. I hear he can blog like a sonofagun, though.

Why do we always see somebody else’s scrub big man (Earl Barron) and wish he was playing for us? Heh….

O’brien ,

Co-sign your last 3 posts…..good stuff….

Vava ,

You know, when I read all that initial stuff comparing Oden to Sam Bowie, I just didn’t want to believe it. Dude is not meant to play b-ball, I guess. Well, shouldn’t say that, considering his age, but it just doesn’t look like it’s going to happen.

vava74

November 18th, 2010
7:01 am

Ray,

The thing that really put me off on Oden was his face.

He looked/looks old.

My uneducated guess (epidermic reaction) back then was that he suffered from a mitigated form of “precocious aging” and that this would translate into injuries to his joints.

However, the comparison to Bowie can only be done in retrospect, since at the time of the draft he had no particular history of severe injuries to his lower body like Bowie had.

O'Brien

November 18th, 2010
7:25 am

One guy I wanted to see interviewed this offseason, was Thibodeau, the defensive guru behind the Celtics.

Thibodeau’s Bulls gave up 37 third quarter points and 29 fourth quarter points to the Spurs (after giving up 37 the entire first half).

I guess coaches can’t do it on their own, no matter the scheme. They need the right players.

O'Brien

November 18th, 2010
7:26 am

With Oden out for the season again, I can’t help but feel bad for Blazers fans. After taking Sam Bowie over MJ (which is understandable, because they already had Clyde Drexler), Bowie never lived up to the hype (partly due to injuries), while MJ went on to become MJ.

And now, they draft Oden (which is understandable, since he was the next star center), and who will have played 82 games in 4 seasons, over KD, who has been a scoring champ, and a gold medal winner on Team USA.

I know BK was horrible in drafting Marvin over CP3 or Deron, but at least Marvin contributes in some way (although he’s still not consistent enough).

And BK was horrible in drafting Shelden over Roy and anybody else. But at least Shelden was part of the deal to get Bibby.

I feel bad for Oden too. Seems like a good guy, but injuries have ruined his career before it even got started.

Astro Joe

November 18th, 2010
7:51 am

nire, I assume you remember the “Oden gets a big contract” wager? I think it was like 80% of the max? I think dude is about to get a short-term contract for maybe 50% of the max with a ton of incentives related to playing time. But not even the Knicks will be giving this guy an albatross of a contract.

Roy was oft-injured in college. And according to avav, Oden’s mug was a dead giveaway. I wonder what Rodman’s face forecasted?

wordsmithtom

November 18th, 2010
8:11 am

Big Ray,
Bosh is Miami’s Marvin…:) Bosh must have been listening: he went off for 35 against the Suns last night. Let’s hope Marvin can top that against Dallas…. A guy can dream, can’t he!

OBrien,
Huge Braves fan. Love the Uggo trade. Chipper’s through. They’ll give him Chip’s $, assuming he meshes, and Braves have a 2-3-4-5 murderers’ row for pitchers to fear. We lose a talented supersub who was a potential free agent anyway. What’s not to like? Can the deal fail? Sure. Ask NY how much they liked the right fielder they got from us…what’s his name now? Funny how Heyward makes us forget.

doc

November 18th, 2010
8:26 am

big ray, i think i agree or understand the your point you are making. my concern plays to the bigger picture which sometimes is lost. i dont want anymore scrub bigs. i dont salivate over them at all. all i wanted and was stressing is we needed a guy to either be “the big”, which is very hard to come by without giving up something or to get a fourth big that can play some legitimate minutes that may have been a previous starter.

i dont think that it was good money spent to pay three guys to do that and do it poorly which is what we did in powell, etan and collins. i think you need four legit bigs that can play real minutes on their own to compete. not sure if this is a consideration, but were they signed because as vets the league would be paying part of it since they were paid under a certain threshold? is that a legitimate question of who is paying these guys? isnt there a cba criteria that has the league paying at least part of a salary if it is under a certain amount and a player being in the league a certain number of years? if so, we are talking about saving money rather than building a team that can truly compete.

vava, agree on the oden thing. it smelled bad and the notion of precocious maturity did come up in discussions about him on the blog as folks considered whether we should try to trade up for him. many were critical for not doing so. i remember even someone pointing out he had a short leg syndrome of 3 inches and wears a lift in his shoe and being shouted down. if so that is a huge structural abnormality and would put him at much greater risk for ankle, knee and hip injuries. structural balance is where it is for non-athletes how can it not be for real athletes? of course it is. i see it daily in my own work with people in physical pain.

Astro Joe

November 18th, 2010
9:11 am

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
9:43 am

Astro,

Yeah, I think you’re right on the contract. Obviously, I didn’t see knee injury #3 coming, but given his past history, I probably shouldn’t have bet on him playing this season.

It’s crazy. None of his injuries seem, medically, to be connected. That seems impossible because each of them was a knee injury, but each was to a different part of the knee, and none seem to be the result of “wear and tear” or him favoring a non-injured knee. This injury actually sounds like it probably existed at the time he broke his patella last year, but since the fractured patella was what they were focused on, they just missed it. I’m normally not one to question doctors (especially since I’m practically engaged to one), but why didn’t they detect it sooner?

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
9:54 am

O’B,

As much as I despise Pritchard and am glad he’s gone from Portland, I find it very tough to blame him for this in the same way that we can question the selections of Marvin and Shelden. It seems that better scouting could have revealed that that Marvin (and certainly Shelden) wouldn’t turn out to be the superstar that the talking heads (who usually are wrong anyway) were pegging him to be during his freshman year. Unless it turns out that Oden has brittle bone disease or some degenerative disorder that could have been detected in 2007, I don’t think there’s any way Pritchard could have seen this coming. I mean, he’d had a hip and wrist injury before the draft. Nothing to his knees. It’s just tough for me to see how Pritchard could possibly have foreseen this. Can’t say the same about Marvin and Shelden…

doc

November 18th, 2010
10:28 am

nire a lot of folks were questioning his body morph and ability to take the pounding of the nba from the get go. just the same it is impossible to predict who is injury prone and who isnt form the out set.

what did you dislike about pritchard?

Bojo

November 18th, 2010
10:30 am

No need even to consider the Hawks as a contender until they get a legit center and move Horford to forward where he belongs.

Bojo

November 18th, 2010
10:30 am

The “dream team’ is going to be the biggest bust of all time.

O'Brien

November 18th, 2010
10:31 am

nire,

Agreed. I dont blame Portland for either draft decision (Bowie or Oden). When you have the chance to draft a center like Oden, I think you do it, especially when they already had Roy (who needs the ball).

I read an interesting article on ESPN, and they raised an interesting point. When do fingers get pointed (rightly or wrongly) at the Blazers medical staff?

Some of the injuries they’ve dealt with are Brandon Roy (multiple occasions), Zach Randolph when he was there, Darius Miles when he was there, and now Oden on multiple occassions.

Are the medical staff and coaching staff doing all the right things?

Doc,

I think you’re right. The League reimburses the Hawks for half the salaries of Etan, Collins, and Powell, and they are only making the vet minimum to start with.

And the Hawks will be in the same boat next year; Looking for a backup PF, a backup SF, and a third string center.

And although ZaZa is a good backup center, I dont think he is a good fit as Al’s backup. We need a more defensive backup center.

If we could combine ZaZa and Collins into one player, that would work nicely (imo).

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
10:39 am

Doc,

Pritchard was too trigger-happy on trades and free agents, particularly with PGs. The result was a team whose chemistry was consistently well below where it could/should have been. He seemed to be the perfect example of “make change for the sake of making change.” I mean, the team started 5 different players at PG over the course of 3 years (Blake, Jack, Miller, Rodriguez, Bayless), despite the fact that all of their PGs stayed relatively healthy. It showed in transition offense – despite the Blazers having a young, fast team, they finished bottom 5 in fast break points each of the past 4 years. But where it really showed was on defense, where no one seemed to be able to read how to play off screens or move for a double-team. They had enough to talent to win in the regular season the past couple years, but the team’s lack of chemistry was really obvious come the playoffs.

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
10:45 am

Also, Pritchard apparently caused a lot of locker room tension. Word I heard is that he would talk up his players’ talents on the record and then belittle them off the record (with the off-the-record quotes getting reported sometimes without his name attached to it). And it was no secret that he tried to conduct contract negotiations (both for himself and his players) through the media.

He had a great eye for talent in the draft. But that makes him a great scout, not a good GM.

vava74

November 18th, 2010
11:08 am

On Oden,

doc are you kidding?

Is indeed Oden a gimp? with a 3” differential between his too legs?

that on a 7′ 280lbs body should spell disaster.

doc

November 18th, 2010
11:26 am

yeah vava for real. 7 plus footer 280 plus pounds wearing a heal lift was the report. i thought to myself, no way. ultimately, it goes to the back structurally; knees, hips and ankles are suspect first.

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
11:28 am

Doc – all the reports I’ve read say 1 inch, not 3.

doc

November 18th, 2010
11:52 am

nire, let us not quibble over minutia, one inch vs three bro. maybe it was one and a half or three quarters? i didnt measure it. the point is, he had asymmetry requiring a lift is what was discussed before the draft, that portends disaster. if it is to the point he truly was wearing a lift to play then it was a problem from the get go. you have to have symptoms before someone gives you a lift usually, though they really arent that helpful over time.

interesting note from a blazer fan about the draft. note it is the first comment after the article:

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2008/06/quick_nba_draft_review.php

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
12:06 pm

Doc,

Come on. One inch versus three inches is a big difference. It’s not minutiae. You’re a doctor. You know that. You also know that the significance of a discrepancy diminishes with height. You also should know that most athletes have some anatomical leg length discrepancy – not one inch, but some. A one-inch discrepancy is not good, but is not necessarily a harbinger of disaster. A 3-inch discrepancy would be a much, much worse sign. That’s stuff they taught

There have been many athletes who have had successful careers with short leg syndrome.

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
12:07 pm

*stuff they taught my girlfriend in the first week of her ortho rotation.

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
12:20 pm

Andre Agassi had a pronounced LLI and femoral anteversion, which caused him to have that pidgeon walk. But he played high-level tennis – a sport that’s even harsher on the knees than basketball – at an elite level until he was in his mid-30s, long after most tennis players hang em up.

Please, doc. I don’t see how you can argue that LLI is some harbinger of athletic catastrophe, or that the difference between a 1 and 3 inch LLI is “minutiae.” That’s demonstrably not true. The Blazers doctors might not be thorough, but they knew before they drafted Oden that he had an LLI. A first-year resident could tell you that LLI is found in a majority of people and an overwhelming majority of athletes, and you’re gonna talk like it was some fatal sign?

vava74

November 18th, 2010
12:53 pm

nire,

On short and stocky guy like Agassi with a lower center of gravity (he is 5′11” and weighted 177lbs), my guess is that the difference in leg size would always be less serious for him.

Also, Agassi did not need to jump for a living.

Yao’s foot problems derive directly from the fact that he is too big, big beyond the design of the human body (our bones and joints are not prepared for this weight).

Oden is not as big, but still, he has about 120/140lbs (almost the whole Agassi weight) above his hips shifting position and support/lever from one leg to the other.

Melvin

November 18th, 2010
12:56 pm

Looks like AC Law will have to find yet another team. I watched Memphis rookie PG Greivis Vasquez play the other night and this kid looks promising….

http://blogs.commercialappeal.com/the_memphis_edge/2010/11/acie-laws-days-with-the-grizzlies-be-numbered.html

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
1:03 pm

Vava,

Fair points. Bulky big men invariably are at risk for injuries to their knees, back, and feet more than shorter guys precisely because of that. But that’s a problem with big men generally, not Oden in particular. And as I said – the flip side of that is that Oden’s great height reduces the significance of an LLI. A 1-inch LLI on him is the equivalent of a .75-.8 inch LLI on a normal-sized person (assuming that the distribution of their height between legs and upper body is the same). Still significant, and a cause for some concern, but not something that “portends disaster,” and CERTAINLY not something that portends disaster at as young an age as Oden has suffered.

Oh, and even today, it’s impossible to say whether the LLI had anything to do with Oden’s injuries. No one is denying that, I assume.

A 3-inch LLI would be extreme for anyone, though, even Oden. That’s why I feel differentiating between a 1-inch and 3-inch LLI is important, and why I’m baffled that Doc referred to such a difference as “minutiae.”

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
1:08 pm

Oh hi, Melvin – you still haven’t answered the question. I’m just going to give you the benefit of the doubt, assume that you weren’t intentionally lying, and label your hilarious and idiotic statement during the Miami game as “talking out of your ass.” Since you’re too much of a coward to do it yourself, I’ll just do it for you. Hopefully you’ll learn your lesson and not do that in the future. But considering that you have trouble with basic reading comprehension, I doubt you’ll put in the effort.

O'Brien

November 18th, 2010
1:11 pm

Another big man who suffered from foot injuries was Rick Smits.

Doc,

I remember reading about the 1 inch issue before the draft too.

But imagine passing on Oden, only to watch him develop into an all star center for another team, a position which is much harder to fill than SF.

Its like BK taking a SF instead of a PG, when PGs are harder to fill (and was a bigger need).

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
1:17 pm

And btw, Melvin, since you apparently still are too dense to pick up on this – the significance of that moment in the Miami game had nothing to do with Marvin’s defense or any substantive matter. The significance was that it showed, clearly and convincingly, that you do not think it’s necessary to actually watch a basketball game or even to look at a play-by-play to make your judgments. Nope, you think just looking at the box score tells you all you need to know. That moment crystallized in the clearest possible terms just how shallow your thinking on basketball is.

doc

November 18th, 2010
1:51 pm

nire by hippa requirements i doubt the “true” info was never released. anything read was unofficial or conjecture. it would be against the law for any organization, doctor or team to mention it including his going through the physical taking process unless he himself talked about it. the reason it is quibbling is that there is no frigging way to know exactly what the true discrepancy was except to say it was. i think that is the point i am trying to make. it one of the red flags that came up when talking about oden as the pillar of your team for the next ten years.

nire, it was not something under the radar so it was significant whether it was one inch or three. that is the point, not the actual discrepancy. if you know the doc in the blazer organization or the lawyer representing him then maybe you can do the work to truly know what it is, until then it is quibbling. it is not quibbling to mention it was an issue along with maybe his body was brittle. folks even mentioned the precocious aging issue. it was maybe a little carried too far with that because he did look about 40 at 19 but it only confirms how closely his health was looked at, more than most 19 yr olds coming into the nba or at least the hubbub about him. again ti was a red flag. you may or may not agree with that. if you have time to do the research to get the true “facts”, go ahead. i dont have the time. until then it is quibble, i really dont care if it was 1 or 3, it was a problem. if it is about you being right then it is 1, ok?

also if you know that if it were only an inch it wouldnt have made a difference then fine say that. is that the inference? a muscle kinesiologist might disagree with you, but fine. i pointed out the structural problems earlier and it is true even if it is one inch. it would be important, especially if he had a history of probs. the reason i accepted the three inches quote by someone was the fact he was already on a lift.

i do find it fascinating that the blazer fan called it right the next day. so someone was concerned, correctly if not the gm at the time that drafted him.

Astro Joe

November 18th, 2010
1:57 pm

Wow, Acie signed a partially guaranteed contract with Memphis? Memphis?

Melvin

November 18th, 2010
2:22 pm

Nire,

I told you your question has not significance, unless you are willing to say that Marvin was the reason why Lebron scored 5 fewer points while he was on the court. If not, than what point are you trying to make? I have acknowledged that Lebron scored more points while Marvin WAS NOT in the game in the 1st half. So continue to ask the same question. You will not run me off this blog or any other blog not matter how Pissed Off or Name Calling you do. Mr. Cyber Bully…

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
2:27 pm

also if you know that if it were only an inch it wouldnt have made a difference then fine say that. is that the inference?

Nope, I never said that. I just disputed your contention that it “portends disaster” and noted that many athletes have long and successful careers despite LLI.

Melvin,

The point I was making is that you were talking out of your ass. That was the point. There is no other point I was trying to make. Do you understand that, Melvin? Or are you so stupid that even that is too much for your simple mind to comprehend?

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
2:31 pm

Mr. Cyber Bully…

Awwwwwwwwwwww. I’m sorry. Did I hurt your feelings? I’ll just refer you to the post that Ray made to another fool that was always so itching to bash Marvin that he would say things that were demonstrably, hilariously wrong in his rush to do so.

Melvin

November 18th, 2010
2:32 pm

Nire,

You have no point…

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
2:33 pm

And doc,

i do find it fascinating that the blazer fan called it right the next day

So are you saying that you know that his LLI caused or even contributed to his injuries? That’s pretty impressive considering that you never examined him.

doc

November 18th, 2010
2:36 pm

here is a quote from oden about how he has a limp if he doesnt wear orthotics:

http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/11/12/1810430/ian-thomsen-on-greg-oden

also some interesting comments further down about how the integrity of the body and its mechanics are screwed up on the guy.

limps are not a good thing in a person walking the street, a horse or an athlete, it can portend disaster especially if they are trying to run fast or make cuts quickly or heaven forbid jump and land correctly. if your horse limps, stop riding it same kind of goes for people. limps suggest it is structural and it stresses every joint up and down the body, head to toe. if you want a start up read on how important it is, read a book by pete egoscue, the egoscue method. it is in laymen’s terms, so most folks get it when they read it.

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
2:36 pm

Melvin,

It’s ok. Maybe you can go back to school for another year so that you can get to the level of reading comprehension where you’ll be able to grasp that “Melvin talks out of his ass” was, in fact, the point I was making. I doubt it, but maybe. It’s just plain sad that you are so dense that you don’t seem to understand that.

Melvin

November 18th, 2010
2:36 pm

No you didn’t hurt my feelings Nire. You are not in any position to hurt me. I really fine you to be laughable, how you get can get pissed off on a blog with people you don’t know personally b/c they dont agree with you. My life is too good to worry about what some say on a blog… Really, I got a GOOD Life man….

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
2:39 pm

Good find, doc. I hadn’t seen that article yet. That certainly seems to imply that his doctors expressed concern about his LLI causing injuries down the line. From what I understand about his past injuries, that wasn’t the direct cause, but that makes it sound like it affects him enough that it was a contributing factor,

Melvin

November 18th, 2010
2:39 pm

No school needed Nire. I have my degrees and my life is comfortable right now….

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
2:40 pm

That’s good, Melvin. Stupid people who make spelling, grammar, and punctuation errors every time they type (and who think that they can learn everything they need to know about basketball from looking at box scores) are entitled to happiness too. Ignorance is, after all, bliss.

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
2:41 pm

I’m glad, Melvin. It’s good to see that you’ve managed to find happiness despite being an idiot, and managed to find friends despite your tendency to talk out of your ass. That must not have been easy.

Melvin

November 18th, 2010
2:43 pm

But I didn’t make the spelling, grammar and punctuation errors when it count. So feel free to keep point that out on a blog….

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
2:44 pm

No problem, Melvin. You mean “counts” and “pointing.”

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
2:45 pm

Or, I suppose, “don’t make spelling . . . errors when it counts” or “didn’t make spelling errors when it counted.”

Melvin

November 18th, 2010
2:46 pm

Nire,

Exactly…

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
2:47 pm

In any case, I can live with typos. I make them myself. I don’t generally notice them, actually, so it really was quite petty for me to use that as an example. What is more worrisome is how much of a simpleton you are when it comes to basketball. To you, everything about basketball can be learned from a box score. How pathetic.

Melvin

November 18th, 2010
2:48 pm

Have a good day Nire. Gotta go, I have other things to do now…
lol

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
2:49 pm

Ok, Melvin. Wouldn’t want you to miss the shortbus.

Astro Joe

November 18th, 2010
2:56 pm

doc

November 18th, 2010
2:59 pm

nire i really try to be accurate in what i talk about, to the best of my abilities. i am a lot more comfortable talking about the body than contract law. ;-)

i know we differ on our opinions about management but i do have some background there as i was a management consultant before medicine so i am a bit more observant having seen how business’ are run close up and inside the organization. i saw it from a different side, more the productivity side, therefore we have disagreements there as well. my side was not as firm as the law so i understand if you dont perceive some of my insights as credible or even meaningful and that is all right. some are dead right some are dead wrong. in the field of human productivity it wasnt always black and white just as in medicine for example of, in leg length discrepancy, is it relevant.

ok, i will say this to clarify, could i perdict these injuires in oden? if that is your argument that you have been trying to make, uh no. if you change it to the more appropriate in the case of oden, if i am going to spend big bucks on the guy ….would i have signed off on his health that he would not have a higher predictability of having problems, uh not on your life. a horse trader i am not and i would not have put my medical credibility on the line with such a statement. even then i backed up the guy on the blog who was being guffawed at how we are want to do when he brought up the leg length issue because they truly did not know of what they spoke.

glad to have found the article and glad you took the time to check it out. it was pretty topical and timely.

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
3:15 pm

Fair enough, doc.

Really, I think what lies at the root of my gripe about people’s beef with the ASG is not even when they call them “cheap.” It’s when they say they are “poor” or imply that somehow their personal finances affect the operation of the team – or vice versa. People seem to think that the owners themselves take a profit or loss whenever the Hawks sign a free agent or make a trade, or that when they trade a player or pick for cash, that cash goes into the owners’ pockets (an assertion that was made so often this summer that I was blown away). I know from my experience that not only is that not the case, but that can’t be the case given the type of business organization ASG is (LLC operating under a franchise agreement) and the strict operating agreements that all teams have with the NBA. The owners sometime have to make capital contributions, but those are mostly non-discretionary. Beyond that, they only ever “make” or “lose” money when they buy and sell their stake in the team. To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, the NBA ensures that there is a wall of separation between the team’s finances and the owners.

I think that fundamental misunderstanding affects a lot of people’s thinking about ASG. It has made me very jaded when it comes to reading people’s posts regarding team finances. I think even when people get the basic “wall of separation” concept down, many people still don’t quite get that there is no incentive for the owners to make spending decisions based on anything except projected future revenues. Anyway, I’ll stop myself before I go off even further on a tangent…

doc

November 18th, 2010
3:36 pm

well nire, i think personal finances do affect it when it comes to cash calls which it is rumored to have happened but that is not the daily grind most of us are talking about. i think sydel is a lesser owner because he couldnt cough up some extra dough. i think it was written in more than one place but it too is probably conjecture.

i am more concerned about the culture of the organization, nire. it could be a “cheap” culture or one that extravagant. it doesnt matter which the culture it better be one of value and one that seeks value. that is the one that i find missing here, they sometimes dont go after value. if an extravagant one does not find value then the fan suffers as well. money had been an issue especially when it was in the courts and it affected how the team was run, my read. i was pleased to see the commitment they made with bibby though he is expensive and maybe not the value we could have found if more diligent and smarter before hand. that is where we have come up short. i would not like to watch extravagance wasted and maybe more so and be more vocal, if you catch my drift.

in the mean time, LD seems to earning his money and being of prime value as at least we hear from the players through the press the concepts he is trying to come across with. he has also made some pretty nifty in game changes or pre game plans to execute. now, can we beat a true playoff team on our home court? it has been a while, like may, since we did.

Big Ray

November 18th, 2010
4:15 pm

NIRE !

No you did NOT drag that old blog post back up after all this time! LOL, I forgot all about writing that post. Man, that was some foolishness (but I had fun writing it). OMG….I’m embarrassed now….

Melvin ,

Cyber bully? ROFLMBBAO…..that was funny, yo…..

Vava ,

You’re killin’ me. I had to laugh at your comments on Oden, but I totally see where you’re coming from. You know what struck me about him back in college, though? How often he had to go to the bench, and how he was puffing like a bellows on the bench. I mean, dude was breathing with his mouth open. I thought, if his conditioning is this much of an issue NOW, how’s he going to deal with the NBA game?

Big Ray

November 18th, 2010
4:18 pm

Doc ,

Seydel is the one who always seems to “speak out of turn.” He was the one who essentially was quoted in one article as having said that economic/financial issues had forced him to sell back a percentage of his ownership stake in the team. Wish I could find the article, but it was linked to when the ASG was saying that all they had done since purchasing the team, was lose money. This was back when they were still getting a team appraisal done.

doc

November 18th, 2010
5:30 pm

Ray, exactly. that is part of the culture that i am speaking of when i refer to hawks and ownership. it truly is a very diffrrent business model that is closely tied to the people that own it. it is true for many businesses probbly as many businesses there are. as nire says the payoff is down the road whereas most business models require annual success. here i think cilture has a bigger impact. it is more personsal. look to the cultures of the warriors where they decried the former owner or the direct opposites of the lakers and the clips. sorry most businesses would not survive in a true business environment based on competiton, but the clips move on. i mean didnt we seeenough of the rankin smith culture in atlanta to last a lifetime?

ATLANTA RAISED, INDY LIVING DONT ASK ME WHY

November 18th, 2010
6:26 pm

SEND TEAGUE BACK HOME FOR TJ FORD..GREAT TRADE FOR BOTH TEAMS..always, a HAWKS FAN..MISSING THE ATL..NOT

O'Brien

November 18th, 2010
8:47 pm

It’s always interesting to look at old reports before a draft.

NBAdraft.net compared Oden to David Robinson and Bill Russell before the draft.

NBAdraft.net had a N/A for Marvin William’s NBA comparison.

NBAdraft.net’s comparison for Shelden Williams? Emeka Okafor.

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
9:52 pm

I know how bad the Clips are, but man. I feel like I would trade our whole roster to get Blake Griffin. He’s like Amare on offense and in transition, and is just as tenacious on the boards and on D as he is on offense. If he stays healthy, I would bet that he will be a top 5 player within 3 years.

niremetal

November 18th, 2010
10:05 pm

This was the moment that did it for me more than anything. Saw it live on League Pass…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54SnmzkXLic

If you have League Pass, use it to watch a Clips game sometime. Griffin makes it worthwhile.

doc

November 18th, 2010
10:58 pm

the cat has a motor nire

Melvin

November 18th, 2010
11:14 pm

Yeah, Blake is a freak of nature. I wish Josh would use his athleticism to attack the rim like that. No reason why he shouldn’t get more of his points from dunks…

Melvin

November 18th, 2010
11:15 pm

* I wish Josh would use his athleticism to attack the rim like that more often.

Wally Walker

November 18th, 2010
11:16 pm

Again people need to read before making inaccurate statements, Sam Bowie was the best Center in college basketball the year he was drafted. The Trailblazers needed a center not another guard. Matter of fact, Bowie was a 20/10 player coming out of college and was having a solid rookie year before his injury. No one knows what his career would have been as well as the fortunes of Portland. Hinesight is 20 20!
Moreover, the drafting of Marvin Williams over D. Williams or C. Paul was clearly a huge mistake that the Hawks are still suffering from. However, drafting S. Williams was understandable because the Hawks as stated earlier needed SIZE!!! Drafting another wing player after the trade acquiring JJ would not have made any sense. Now, as before, the Hawks still need SIZE. JC1 should be offered to Portland for Joel Prizbilla. There is no way the Hawks can resign JC1, so it makes sense to attempt to improve the team.
Finally, if the Hawks are serious about becoming a legitimate championship contender, a move for a legit big man is mandatory!

doc

November 18th, 2010
11:28 pm

melvin, that is pure smash territory. i was about to say the same thing, that i wish josh would watch it a say, “hmm that looks more fun than this sheed thing i’m doing, let’s go for it”.

doc

November 18th, 2010
11:35 pm

Melvin

November 19th, 2010
12:40 am

Doc,

Maybe Josh wants to be known for more than just a great dunker…

How would you guys like a Jamal for Troy Murphy trade? He would be a very solid backup PF. Also, Troy outside shooting would allow LD flexiblity to play him alongside Josh and Horford…

vava74

November 19th, 2010
3:06 am

Melvin,

If you guys think powell’s D suck, please watch troy carefully.

This guy is present in more poster shots than anyone else in the NBA.

When Kelly Dyer of yahoo made his players’ ranking troy was in 15 out of 20 photos of the supposed top 20 PF in the league plus his own pic AND was in seveal other photos relating to the top 20 for other positions.

Obviously this is not a scientific assessment but since I already thought his d was atrocious I laughed my ass off when I noticed that.

Note that on all pics involving opposing PF only in one he is not looking helpless and beaten… :-D

vava74

November 19th, 2010
3:21 am

BTW, hilarious historical post digging by nire.

I think you may have had a couple of bacardi’s on you when you wrote that Ray…

vava74

November 19th, 2010
3:58 am

Was it here that someone was “drolling” over Earl Barron? Saying that it looked a better signing than any of our bigs?

Here are his impressive numbers against ORL’s Howard and Gortat (after a 9 minute, 0 points 1 rebound effort):

Earl Barron MIN15 FG0-1 FT2-4 3PT0-0 OREB1 DREB0 TREB1 ASS2 STL0 BLK1 TO0 FOULS3 PTS2

Whooa!!!

O'Brien

November 19th, 2010
8:31 am

Vava,

I’m not sure who was “drolling” over Earl Barron, but I did make the comment that I would have looked into him this offseason (Etan’s spot could have been a possibility).

Barron averaged 12 and 11 over a 7 game stretch for the Knicks last year, so I thought he would be worth a tryout. But nire informed me that Hawks actually saw him up close 2 or 3 seasons ago in camp, and they were not impressed.

That being said, aren’t you a little premature in your judgment? Can you really make a decision on him after one game? Much less in Orlando? In only his first or second game of the season?

Dude was just signed, so it’s not like he was practicing every day with the Suns players, learning the system, etc.

Again, I’m not saying he will be a very good backup player, because the possibility is that he sucks. All I’m saying is 1) I would have given him a look for Etan’s spot and 2) Its hard to make a decision either way after one or two games (regardless of how bad the performance was).

niremetal

November 19th, 2010
8:37 am

Doc,

Several of my friends from college (where I was in a light opera company) were at that “flash Halleujah mob” thing. I would have gone if I still were living in Philly (I moved to Wilmington in May).

O'Brien

November 19th, 2010
8:37 am

Wally Walker,

I think one of the biggest complaints about the drafting of Shelden was how it went down, not the drafting itself.

Before the draft, there was a rumor out there that BK promised Shelden he would take him at #5, so Shelden reportedly shut down all his workouts for other teams.

And ultimately, BK was unable to find a trade partner to trade down, because nobody had Shelden rated that highly.

If BK had traded down, and gotten Shelden with the 12th pick for example, I dont think fans would have been so upset. Because you’re right. We needed help in the frontcourt, and Shelden might have been the highest rated big. But to take him at 5th was too big a reach.

O'Brien

November 19th, 2010
8:41 am

As for the Josh and the dunking, I do wish he would dunk more. Recently, he seems more into jump shots, layups, crossovers etc,. than he does dunking.

And even if he is known as just a dunker, he has shown enough versatility this season, so it shouldnt have mattered. Shawn Kemp was a dunker, but he was awesome.

nire,

Taking salary out of the equation, would you trade Josh or Al for Blake Griffin, straight up?

doc

November 19th, 2010
8:48 am

al horford interviewed on 790 this am.

nire so it was advertised rather than spontaneous. sounded impressive with the organ. is it permanently in macy’s?

have sung the hallelujah chorus many times having done choral work in high school and college just never in a department store.

niremetal

November 19th, 2010
8:51 am

O’B,

Yes, either. Maybe even both. Griffin is, I think, the best PF to come along since Duncan. If he can stay healthy (and really, his recovery from surgery seems so complete that there’s no more reason to think he’s more at risk of injury than Josh or Al), it seems all but a certainty that he’ll be a top 10 player. I think he’s a guaranteed 20-10 guy starting next year and, hard as Al plays, he seems to play with such intensity and such a sense of joy that it’s tough to see how it wouldn’t rub off on his teammates. I seriously think having a guy like him around will all but force the rest of the team to play up to his level of intensity – he already has had that effect on the Clips. They are going to lose a lot, but from what I’ve seen, it’s certainly not from lack of effort.

Astro Joe

November 19th, 2010
9:48 am

If a player (Josh or Blake) can score a bunchof points within 5 feet of the basket, how is that a bad thing? It’s like people who complaned that Childress didn’t have a jumper, while he shot 55% from the field. Isn’t the idea to shoot the ball where you have the best chance to make it? If Derrick Rose has the quicks to get to the rim on virtually every possession, why would he stop that and start hoisting deep bombs? Isn’t that why Vince Carter went from unstoppable offensive force to forgettable guard? Because he stopped attacking the rim and started settling for 30% 3-pointers? The idea is to add to your offensive arsenal, not replace your most effective shots for something sexier.

O'Brien

November 19th, 2010
10:17 am

nire,

The Clips seem to have some good young players (Eric Gordon, Blake Griffin, Chris Kaman, and even Eric Bledsoe, who I dont know much about). But this being the Clippers, something will go wrong, or somebody will get hurt again.

I remember vava’s favorite writer (Bill Simmons :smile: ) did an article about Blake after the draft. And he basically talked about the Clippers luck when they get really good players. They get hurt, or the team sucks.

If I’m Blake, there is no way I’m staying with the Clippers and Donald Sterling when my rookie contract is up.

AJ,

Exactly. The aim is to score, in whichever way you can. Dunk, FT, jump shots, whatever.

And if Josh continues to improve on his jumper, it will open up driving lanes for him. Or if he is driving and dunking on people, it will open up space for him to shoot. He can do both.

Melvin

November 19th, 2010
10:18 am

Vava,

I omitted the Hoopshype link in my previous post that said Murphy may be on the trading block. That’s the reason why I made the suggestion. Also, didn’t Kelly Dyer feature one player exclusively for his position rankings? I think he used Ty Lawson in all the pics for the PGs.

Astro Joe

November 19th, 2010
11:18 am

OB, not just score, but score in the most efficient way possible. Volume shooters score. Jamal Crawford scores. A 40% shooter scores. After watching this group of Hawks players for the past 5-6 seasons, I’m not of the opinion that perimeter shooting is a missing skill set.

KevinM

November 19th, 2010
11:48 am

Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to offer a package of Marvin/Bibby or Zaza/Bibby for a quick point guard that complements Teague? We need another quick PG to offset the big minutes that quick point guards need to play…they just wear down in this league.
I just looked at out salaries going forward for the next 2 years. Losing Jamal and even with Bibby coming off the books, our numbers do not decrease enough to bring in a significant piece. The only way we get another starter is to move 2 starters IMO.
Those numbers for Marvin/Bibby/Zaza will continue to eat up the cap numbers that are needed to bring in additional help. Our big 3 takes us to 60% of a 70M cap next year and 64% the following year. I don’t see a lot of flexibility, especially if rumors to decrease salary caps 33% are true. Putting the salary cap at 50M will be just suicide for us going forward.

We have to win with our core 3; there just isn’t a true way to improve this team unless Teague and a couple of rookies get major minutes. We aren’t bringing in equal value for Jamal.

I would have loved to see Cousins on this roster, but Teague has got to start getting more minutes for us to take another step.

We have been lucky to miss Collison and Nelson in those 2 games, or this record would be at .500.

Us missing Marvin doesn’t balance out what other teams haven’t played with. How sad is it that Marvin can’t make this Top 25 SF ranking?…….http://hardcourtmayhem.com/cavaliers/?p=38

Its obvious that there is very little respect for our SF around the league.

vava74

November 19th, 2010
12:08 pm

Melvin,

I went back to check and you absolutely right! My bad!

I don’t usually read what Dwyer writes so I only checked the PF ranking because I was curious about Smoove’s position.

Hence I did not notice that he did it for all positions (weird option to say the least)

Nonetheless, I don’t think Murphy would be a good option.

Yes, he rebounds, but he is useless on man to man D and all that with a 11.98 million price tag for this year (his last) and without guarantee that his contract would be of any use since we do not know what the new CBA will bring.

Astro Joe

November 19th, 2010
12:08 pm

If Marvin scored 18 points/game, I wonder if that would fix our defense against quick PGs? If Marvin shot 55% from the field, I wonder if that would help us better defend 3-point shooters? If Marvin grabbed 2 more boards/game, I wonder if that would be the difference in being a good/bad rebounding team? If Marvin shot 8 FTAs/game, I wonder if our bench would be more consistent? If Marvin locked down elite SFs, I wonder if that would improve our PG play?

I can see why Marvin gets so much attention, he really is the root of most of our problems, huh?

Astro Joe

November 19th, 2010
12:12 pm

I’d take Murphy in a heart beat. I would never turn down a chance to get a top 10 rebounder… especially in exchange for something like Jamal and loose change. A 3 big rotation of Horford, Josh and Troy would work quite well, with each bringing a different skill set.

vava74

November 19th, 2010
12:13 pm

OB,

Barron was without a team for a reason. Probably he is either lazy, a bad character, low bball IQ, … there must be something dead wrong for a young 7 footer like him not being in the league.

Etan may be looking to be washed up but he has a record in the league which is far better than Barron’s.

Ability and Productivity are not coincidental in many cases.

vava74

November 19th, 2010
12:21 pm

So my take is that Barron has a good body, some ability, but does not have either the drive or the discipline to put it on the floor on a daily basis.

The fact that he performed well under Dantoni is also a red flag: his production was better/good under a coach which does not preach any kind of discipline.

I saw a few games and bits of games of this year’s Knicks on leaguepass and I can tell you, having
an inflatable doll coaching the Knicks would probably render the exact same results (or better)…

niremetal

November 19th, 2010
12:47 pm

I have much more respect for D’Antoni than you do, vava. The problem, in my view, is that D’Antoni’s system requires players who can think on their feet much better than most players can, at least in order for the system to be successful. That’s why his teams with Nash/JJ/Marion leading the pack did so well – they all are pretty sharp.

Frankly, I assign the team’s defensive uselessness to personnel – JJ, Marion, and Raja Bell were the only guys on his teams who could defend at all, but none of those guys were quick enough to stay with fast PGs and they had no one who could defend the interior worth anything. Actually, considering what he had to work with, the fact that the Suns never finished lower than 20th in defensive rating (ie points allowed per 100 possessions) during his tenure is impressive.

The Knicks are just a pile of crap. I can’t blame him for not being able to do more with what he’s had there.

O'Brien

November 19th, 2010
12:49 pm

“We have to win with our core 3; there just isn’t a true way to improve this team unless Teague and a couple of rookies get major minutes.” KevinM .

Its not a matter of rookies (or backups) getting major minutes. Its a matter of them earning major minutes by playing well.

vava,

I think D’Antoni made the wrong decision by passing up the Bulls job for the Knicks job. He needs to be an offensive co-ordinator on a coaching staff where there is a defensive coordinator, and a head coach.

AJ,

Better play from Marvin would reduce Jamal’s PT, which would help our team defense tremendously. It could also have a positive effect on our team offense.

KevinM

November 19th, 2010
1:01 pm

OB, the Hawks aren’t going to win with Zaza/Bibby/Marvin/Mo as complements to the core 3.

You know what you are getting with these guys. They cost too much to just sit down. You take minutes away from JC1, you shut down any trade value he might have.

niremetal

November 19th, 2010
1:18 pm

For those who wonder why I blasted McGee and Blatche so mercilessly in DC, it’s plays like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZsgq7uGRpI

vava74

November 19th, 2010
1:55 pm

I think you are all day dreaming when you speak about Dantoni.

The real coach for that team was Nash.

A coach extracts wins from the personnel he has.

The Knicks may be weak but a coach that has a weak team and lets them jack up dozens of 3s with 20 seconds on the shot clock is zero on my book. Zero.

And I was not even talking about D. It’s on offense that everyone can see how weak he is.

Offensive coordinator? To teach to launch I’ll advised shots early in the shot clock???

Nash made it work because Nash commanded the team’s offense, not Dantoni.

Give me a break!!!

vava74

November 19th, 2010
1:55 pm

Delusional is the word I should have used

niremetal

November 19th, 2010
2:36 pm

Vava,

Have you ever read Seven Seconds or Less? The reasoning behind D’Antoni’s system seems sound to me. Basically, the theory is that the best shots can be found early in the shot clock before the defense has a chance to get settled. It’s more intricate than that in the details, obviously, but the logic was impressive, and the results he’s had are tough to argue with. It’s not just Nellieball.

Nash was key, to be sure. But it’s no coincidence that Nash went from “very good” to “MVP” after he moved from Dallas to Phoenix. Both Nash and D’Antoni give each other credit for their own success, and I don’t think it’s fair to say that it was “really” Nash’s doing.

vava74

November 19th, 2010
5:01 pm

Nire,

Nash keeps on going at a high level, Dantoni doesn’t.

That’s the difference.

niremetal

November 19th, 2010
6:11 pm

Vava,

Nash has had the talent to keep going at a high level and D’Antoni hasn’t, so that’s another difference. Donnie Walsh didn’t hire him for nothing. Just sayin, I’m not the only person who thinks highly of him…