“We’re not playing hard enough”, say the Hawks

Is that all it has really come down to? Every time you turn around, some guy wearing a Hawks jersey is saying, “we’re not playing hard enough.” Oh, wait just a second. I forgot the rest of what has become a sickening cliche. They’re not playing hard enough “…all the time.”

Really. Is that your final answer?

It’s amazing. A fan base that is constantly accused of not caring enough is now being told by the team’s players that apparently, they don’t care enough. For all the criticisms of the moves that the Atlanta front office made or didn’t make (for whatever reasons), nothing is as ominous as that which just keeps coming up in print after every game, win or loss. The assertion being made at the moment is that it’s not about what the Hawks can’t do, it’s about what they won’t do.  Now of course, your first indication might be to point to the Hawks’ record, which at 7-4, would not indicate that things are nearly as bad as we make them sound. That is, until you examine precisely who the Hawks have beaten, and in what fashion.

Let’s not push the panic button. Why? Not because it’s too early in the season. That would be the easiest cliche to latch onto. No, we don’t need to push the panic button because panic is what happens when that what you least expected and least predicted to happen, is exactly what happens. It’s when you have nearly every reasonable expectation of being safe, then finding out you’re in a lot of danger. Panic is when you don’t know what to do. But the Hawks swear up and down that they do know what to do. They just won’t do it…all the time.

 A mere eleven games into the season, Larry Drew sounds like a man who isn’t beaten yet, but you have to wonder just how much he can take. The man has listened to and observed the same issues for the last six years. Now, as head coach of the same crew, he has to find a way to convince a group of guys to do the very things they already seem to know that should be doing.

The Fault Line

Where do you place Larry Drew on the infamous “fault line?” Is he doing his job? Has he given the team a good guideline and gameplan? Despite the turnovers, which some would argue are a natural by product of the situation and obligatory learning curve, Drew’s offense seems to take better advantage of the team’s talents than we’ve ever seen before. With the exception perhaps of Jamal Crawford, guys “get theirs” without having to make a concerted effort to do so. In fact, it’s good enough to where some teams find themselves going to a zone offense just to slow Atlanta down. All during camp and preseason, everything out of the mouths of the players suggested that they were very pleased with the new offensive scheme. Okay, so then why deviate from it?

Defensively, Drew has decided against scheming to hide the abilities or efforts of some players, and simply holding guys accountable for defending. It doesn’t always work (the argument here is usually that it centers on ability), but there have been concerted flashes of effort from previously unlikely sources. So is Drew to blame here? What is he doing wrong?

Two guys need to be paying very close attention right now. Michael Gearon and Rick Sund. If you think the idea of the core of this team comes from Rick Sund, you might want to think again. Two theories abound here. Either Sund has come up with the idea of the core of Hawks players, and has sold Gearon on the concept…or the concept is Gearon’s , and Sund simply complies with his wishes, offering little or no input. Perhaps neither theory matters at the moment. What does matter is how much attention these guys are paying to what their players are saying and doing. Obviously the answer to the fan base during the offseason, was that the team as constructed merely needed a new guide. Now the new guide is saying some of the exact same things the old guide was saying. Again, didn’t the new guy bring a new plan? Didn’t the players say they liked the plan? Has there been any evidence to suggest that the new plan is ineffective or otherwise flawed?

All this time, we as fans screamed for changes, horrified at the efforts and results of last season’s playoffs. Sure, there was a lot of hollering about coaching, and that had plenty of merit on it’s own. But there was also a lot of hollering about the roster. Of course, that was when times got tough, especially at the end of the season. Here we are at the beginning of the season, and already the looks have started, with the finger pointing right around the corner. And the noise…the noise is coming from the players themselves.

Is this overreaction? Analyzing too early? Well, after which of the Hawks seven wins has there not been a caveat of some type attached, by the players themselves? Why all this noise from a group of guys with a winning record so far? And what ever happened to being one of the best home teams in the League? Seven games in, the Hawks are an even 3 and 3 at home, and 4 – 1 on the road. Should we rejoice in this?

 

HAWKS VS PACERS

Every year there seems to be a team that flies under the radar for a while, before coming up strong. Arguably, the Bucks were that team in the East before suffering the loss of starting center Andrew Bogut at the most inopportune of times. This year, the sleeper team is not what some would call a sexy pick. It’s amazing what an offseason will do for some teams, and some players. Everyone watches the wonder that is John Wall up in Washington, D. C. Chicago’s once bright future is in doubt with the loss of newly signed Carlos Boozer, and the fact that they still must lean too heavily on pg Derrick Rose. But what of Indiana?

No one on their squad short of Danny Granger gets any headlines, yet here the Pacers are, chugging along with a .500 record, not quite the one dimensional joke that they were last season. Indiana has only been truly blown out in one game, a 101-75 loss in Philadelphia back in early November. On the other end of the spectrum, they completely crushed Denver 144-113 about a week later.

Here’s the deal with Indiana – you can’t just game plan to contain Granger and let the rest of the guys do their thing. For the first time in a while, the Pacers have a fairly solid starting lineup. Guess what that means? They also have a somewhat viable bench, as the guys they were forced to start last year are now reserves. Let’s get into the key players.

Backcourt

The addition of Darren Collison to the Indiana lineup has given the Pacers a solid pg with some decent size and shooting capability. Collison has yet to show exactly where he belongs in the East pecking order of point guards, and doesn’t figure to be too very high in a field that boasts Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, John Wall, and other credible names (forgive me if I don’t mention them all). But, Collison has proven that last season was no fluke, when he filled in admirably for the injured Chris Paul in New Orleans. Third on the team in scoring and first in assists, Collison is shooting quite well from the field and adds some credible defense as well. Collison’s play allows the Pacers to bring the lightning quick but fragile TJ Ford off the bench, instead of burning him with starter’s minutes.

Point guard play isn’t the only thing that has improved Indiana, though. The return of guard/forward Mike Dunleavy gives them another legit perimeter threat with size. The heady Dunleavy can play the two or the three, and makes it even harder for defenses to key in on Danny Granger. As a result, Granger is shooting 48% from the field and 42% from beyond the arc, scary numbers indeed when you’re talking about a guy with his talent. But that’s not all. Dunleavy also defends a bit, and provides both passing and is a legit rebounder. Better yet, he allows the Pacers to choose between Dahntay Jones and Brandon Rush when deciding who to bring off the bench, rather than having to thrust either one into the starting backcourt.

The Frontcourt

Literally the biggest story for this franchise is the seemingly quite sudden transformation of center Roy Hibbert. Gone is the slow, soft, and largely ineffective first round project that we saw last season. In his place is a guy who is second on his team in scoring, first in rebounding, and someone who looks like he could keep New Jersey’s Brook Lopez from making the all-star team a second year in a row. Whatever Hibbert did in the offseason has paid off, and it’s showing even against the better front lines in the NBA, as his potential looks to be catching up with his size.

Beside Hibbert is the energetic, athletic, and physical specimen known as Josh McRoberts. He’s neither Troy Murphy nor Jeff Foster, but what McRoberts gives up in scoring talent and outright rebounding/toughness, he’ll make up for with hustle and effort. Behind him is Tyler Hansbrough, a smart hustler who shoots a very high percentage from the floor, and provides enough rebounding and effort when McRoberts inevitably gets into foul trouble.

Here’s the Deal

The Hawks are still more talented than the Pacers. I believe they’re still 10 to 12 points better on a given night, in which they play as they should. But the Pacers are on the cusp of proving to be a team that can’t be ignored or run roughshod over anymore. They’re healthier, they’re deeper, they’re experiencing some success, and they would like some more. If the Hawks lose focus in this game, they will lose this game, plain and simple. If they “don’t play hard enough”, I’ll wager that the Pacers will embarrass them. Now is not the time for this foolishness, and this ain’t Minnesota, where the talent pool alone all but guarantees a win for the opposing team.

Matchup to Watch – Al Horford vs. Roy Hibbert

Last season, Al Hoford made Roy Hibbert look like a draft bust, despite giving up a solid 4-5 inches and probably 40 pounds to the 7′2″ 280 lb center. Will the Hawks start Horford at center against Hibbert, and will it have the same results? Hibbert still gives up the quickness and ability to run the floor to Horford, but his improved game could be a load for Al on the other end of the floor. Could Hibbert force the Hawks to adjust the matchups?

For the sake of Afterthoughts – Jeff Teague vs. TJ Ford

Quick meets quick. Undeniably, Ford has the better jumpshot right now, but his quickness is a problem anytime he’s on the court. He’ll shoot past Bibby and make Jamal run through one screen too many, so maybe Teague gets another shot to make his presence felt here by keeping Ford from running the Hawks into the ground while Collison gets some rest. In fact, without such an effort, the Hawks could get into all sorts of trouble on the defensive end.

On the other side of the ball, Teague simply must improve his attack. The kid knows how to pass the ball, often to the right people and at the right times, but he continues to be no threat to score.

311 comments Add your comment

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
11:26 pm

In any case, I’ll take 8-4. And I’ll definitely take the 3-day layoff. Hopefully the guys will come back nice and rested for the upcoming crunch.

Astro Joe

November 16th, 2010
11:35 pm

nire, if all we talk about is record on this blog, Ray will be out of business. Of course it is all about the record…. but it’s the other stuff that makes for an interesting blog. Surely you’re not suggesting that Ray’s next blog should consist exclusively of “8-4… now discuss”.

niremetal

November 16th, 2010
11:59 pm

Of course not, AJ. As I said, I’m fine with talking about the record. But you’re the one who said that the record is “the one thing that matters,” not me. You cite stuff other than the record as evidence of sameness and then dismiss my use of the same damned type of evidence to show lack of sameness.

And of course, I didn’t even address your straw man line “if scheme were more important than the record” line – the exact type of putting words in my mouth bull$h!t that you promised to cut out at the beginning of this year. A tip: Don’t make promises if you can’t keep them.

Good night, AJ.

Miles D

November 17th, 2010
1:27 am

Big Ray,

U already know! So, when everybodys wondering whats goin on with our Hawks! They ought to just keep that in mind! When ownership makes a commitment to getting us to the next level…then that when we will get there! Til then, same ol’, same ol’. First round and done! If, we even make it that far, but I atleast think we will though!

[...] it for him. Team officials have noticed McRoberts' struggles in other areas of the game. …“We're not playing hard enough”, say the HawksAtlanta Journal Constitution (blog)IC Cold Links: Pacers Face Tough Matchup Against Hawks [...]

O'Brien

November 17th, 2010
7:55 am

Good win last night. And 5-1 on the road gives them the confidence that they can win on the road. They did not have that road confidence last year.

9 turnovers was great to see. If we keep turnovers to 10 and under, we will be in every game.

Josh was amazing last night. So far, he should be the leader for DPOY. A couple bad decisions sprinkled in, but he is still a work in process.

And we shot well from 3, going 8-15 (even Jeff Teague went 2-3). BTW, Marvin is now 2-14 from behind the 3pt line. Where is his 3 point shot? And I’m surprised that JJ has had the struggles he is having.

One concern. Rebounding . Outrebounded by 12.

Hibbert had 15 in 33 minutes, while Horford had 6 in 31 minutes. I dont know what’s up with Al, but his last 5 rebounding games? 5, 6, 8, 10 and 6. He needs to step it up.

I think Josh and Al should have at least 10 rebounds each game.

doc

November 17th, 2010
8:11 am

o’b, yes i agree. i have been one of the stalwart advocates of josh from the first time he stepped on the court. he has something that oozes forward. i dont want him moved. i have also said the combo of josh and al has the potential to rank right up there among the best and got shouted down for putting them on such a pedestal. i am also quite aware that this team is very unbalanced and has no true post presence and al might be playing out of position unless josh become a three overnight, wishing and hoping aside. personally, i want to see how good they can be together over years. it could be very special.

if we are to do anything within the constraints of the budget we will have to give to get because our ownership is not going to go beyond the tax zone. so, i feel josh is the safer player to trade if you want quality at any of the positions that leave us very vulnerable to the big boys at playoff time, perimeter and interior.

yes, it is a very risky maneuver to trade him but again my point is either get happy with what we got or take the bitter pill we cant keep it al and move on. when the team goes sour, some tend to point the finger at josh. if he is truly the one out of synch then shouldnt he be the one to get what is needed? he is truly the guy with trade value. we might fall into something later when folks want to trade something for nothing, we can hope for it. i really think it is ludicrous at times to talk trades anyway but at times i cant resist to stir the waters if only to suggest before you jump realize you cant get without giving.

ray, pretty awesome, you called it. on a good day we are 10 – 12 points better is what you said and that is what transpired. i am glad i didnt talk up that bet. ;-)

doc

November 17th, 2010
8:51 am

o’b, that is the dilemma. how can you expect those numbers when they are often physically outmatched in the post. live by the sword or die by the sword. al isnt going to be able to do those things against the big boys. he doesnt have the bulk or the lift to do it plain and simple. dont put an expectation on something that cant get there. we need something bigger, collins aint it as he is nothing more than an immobile tree

vava74

November 17th, 2010
9:32 am

doc,

Collins was instrumental in getting Hibbert out of rhythm last night.

Posted a +- of +7 in his 5 minutes of daylight.

Got called for a phantom call when he defended Hibbert very well, so his +- should have been +9 and Hibbert’s point total less 2 points.

Just wanted to check if you saw it. :-D

Astro Joe

November 17th, 2010
10:03 am

Drew said that he wanted his guards to release and defend against the fast break, so he consciously traded off rebounds for transition defense. Obviously, it worked. The problem is when they lose in both areas, rebounding AND transition defense. But last night they looked good. Josh is beginning to play well on the road, if he keeps that up, then that could easily take this team up a notch.

Didn’t Horford leave early in the 2nd quarter with 2 fouls only to finish the game with 2 fouls? Drew needs let Horford play through foul problems until he proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is incapable of playing through foul problems. My guess is that Al will figure it out (and quickly).

Astro Joe

November 17th, 2010
10:09 am

Isn’t it about time for Teague’s minutes to increase? Not from around 15 to 24, but if he is maturing under this new regime, it seems like his minutes should be ramping up… but that doesn’t appear to be the case (excluding the extended garbage time during the Bucks game).

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=4015

doc

November 17th, 2010
10:50 am

vava, collins is one dimensional at best, if that. he is improved because he was non-dimensional outside of his weight last year. i didnt see it nor was it given much credence on the summary by MC.

my comments in context of discussion involves the discussion on being overwhelmed on the boards with o’b. when we stop making them we will have to have a plan to gather up the misses. i also didnt get to finish my remarks because i had gone away from the window accidentally and have learned if i go back everything is lost.

o’b, one of the obvious issues with baord work and having undersized josh and al we dont get any support form the sf on this issues. marvin and mo had a combined 4 boards last night. some point guards or tows get that on bad nights.

doc

November 17th, 2010
10:55 am

vava, let collins have a plus 5 in 25 minutes and i will give him cred. the last time we had this discussion i gave you some other ludicrous pluses from games. i never heard back from you.

Melvin

November 17th, 2010
11:30 am

“– J.J. came out on the losing end of his tussle with Danny Granger, who is a big, strong guy. J.J. can’t displace Granger like he can most defenders. The matchup wore J.J. down and frustrated him at times–he and Granger got double technicals in the third quarter.” – MC

I still want to know, why the Hawks stalwart defensive SF was not defending the Pacers dynamic scoring SF?

Melvin

November 17th, 2010
11:31 am

Doc,

In Josh we trust, you know this old buddy. I’m trying to re-arrange my schedule to make it down for the Mavs game this weekend.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
11:49 am

Melvin,

First off, you need to work on your reading comprehension, given the fact that “J.J. can’t displace Granger like he can most defenders” is a clear reference to the fact that Granger was guarding JJ, not that JJ was guarding Granger.

Second, yeah JJ was guarding Granger for most of the game while Marvin was guarding Troy Murphy. Because Granger was playing SG. Troy Murphy was at SF. Which you would have known if you actually bothered to watch the game.

By the way, you still haven’t told me which it was during the Miami preseason game where you talked about LeBron going off on Marvin despite the fact that LeBron scored most of his points while Marvin was off the floor – were you lying or talking out of your ass? You never answered that one. Because it clearly was one or the other.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
11:50 am

*Dunleavy was at SF. Sorry, got my white boys mixed up.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
11:57 am

And, in case you still need to be led around by the hand, Melvin – Dunleavy is taller and Granger is quicker for the Pacers. Marvin is taller and JJ is quicker for the Hawks – doubly so since Marvin’s still recovering from a knee injury. Yeah, it’s real tough to figure out who should match up with who in that match up. From the opening tip onward, the Pacers put Granger on JJ and Dunleavy on Marvin. Hawks did the inverse at the other end. Yeah, that’s real rocket science there, Melvin.

I’ve actually started using the term “pulling a Melvin” when people just start talking out of their ass on a daily basis. Because you’re the absolute master of it, Melvin. You’re in such a rush to confirm your own preexisting biases that you start talking without knowing what the hell you’re talking about. All. The. Time.

vava74

November 17th, 2010
12:21 pm

doc,

Collins:

AT ORLANDO:

MINUTES 21:59 FG 3-6 (+-) +15 2 REB 2 ASS 6 PTS

AT MINNESOTA:

MINUTES 21:03 FG 2-3 FT 2-2 (+-) +13 3REB 2ASS 6PTS

vava74

November 17th, 2010
12:23 pm

vava74

November 17th, 2010
12:31 pm

doc,

just an extract if you don’t feel up to punching the link:

Offense: Pts per 100 Poss. with Collins on the floor112. without Collins on the floor 1 113.3 -1.1

Defense: Pts per 100 Poss. with Collins on the floor 81.7 without Collins on the floor 114.0 -32.2

vava74

November 17th, 2010
12:36 pm

With the above, I am not saying that Collins is the Michael Jordan of defensive Centers.

But I am clearly defending the following:

1. Collins is a good defensive player whose contribution does not translate into stats shown on boxscores.

2. Drew has been using him wisely and maximizing his skills and perhaps it is advisable for the Hawks that Collins continues to get steady minutes off the bench.

3. You can bet your behind that you would not get the same results with any of the Whitesides, Ortons, or whatever young big project you could find on the draft and/or via free agency.

O'Brien

November 17th, 2010
1:20 pm

From MC’s blog;

“Al picked up his second foul early in the second quarter and L.D. again gave him the hook. Horford said he was “frustrated” by having to sit.”MC .

LD is pulling a Woody. Whenver Horford has 2 first half fouls, he sits for an extended period of time.

By the way, in 12 games this year, Horford finished with 5 personal fouls once. These are his fouls for each game; 3, 4, 3, 3, 3, 5, 0, 4, 0, 3, 2, and 2 last night.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=3213

Drew needs to let him play through it for a change. Because if he pulls him for extended minutes against the big teams (like he did against Orlando), it will cost us.

Melvin

November 17th, 2010
2:32 pm

Nire,

I can’t post the link now but I will post it tonight. Until then, feel free to look at last night box scores and you will see Granger listed at Forward and Dunleavy at guard, so I don’t know where the hell you are getting this Granger playing guard mess from. Oh yeah, maybe it’s just to prove your point.

And if the Pacers felt that Granger (who I think you said in the past was weak defensively) is a better matchup for JJ on the defensive side then why wouldn’t the Hawks use Marvin on Granger who is stronger, taller and a good defensive player according to your analysis on Granger? Why wear down Joe by letting him defend Granger the WHOLE game? Ray pointed out to you during the preseason that Joe guarded Granger in the past, so why you referencing Marvin’s knee as an excuse for not guarding Granger is just your way of trying to prove your weak point again. I recall Mo guarding Granger on a few plays last night and he’s a few months removed from knee surgery. So stop making these weak excuses for Marvin.

“And, in case you still need to be led around by the hand, Melvin – Dunleavy is taller and Granger is quicker for the Pacers. Marvin is taller and JJ is quicker for the Hawks” – Nire

“By the way, you still haven’t told me which it was during the Miami preseason game where you talked about LeBron going off on Marvin despite the fact that LeBron scored most of his points while Marvin was off the floor – were you lying or talking out of your ass?” – Nire

Base on your theory, Marvin was the defensive catalyst against Lebron but he’s not a good matchup with Granger who’s similar in height to Lebron but lighter. Are you willing to say Granger is quicker than Lebron? If not, then why is Marvin a good matchup for Lebron but not Granger?

Melvin

November 17th, 2010
2:54 pm

“Second, yeah JJ was guarding Granger for most of the game while Marvin was guarding Troy Murphy. Because Granger was playing SG. Troy Murphy was at SF. Which you would have known if you actually bothered to watch the game.”

Here’s yet another dumb statement where you try to sound like a basketball guru. Please inform us, how you know Granger was playing SG, since the boxscores listed him at forward in which are use by the PA announcer during players introduction. Is this another one of your inside Intel sources that you can’t reveal to the public infer of being cut off from privy info?

Nire, you may not be talking out of your ass but your breathe smells like shit….

Melvin

November 17th, 2010
2:55 pm

Ray,

Blog master got one of my post, please rescue when you get a chance sir.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
3:00 pm

Melvin,

Yeah, because looking at the Yahoo box score is the best way to tell what position someone is playing during a game. Oh wait, no it’s not. Watching the game is the best way to tell. Which is what I did. And it was easy to tell that Dunleavy was consistently assigned to guard the Hawks SF and was placed away from the top of the key throughout the game, which means *gasp* he was playing SF! Too bad you never watch what’s going on during the game, Melvin. Because you think all you need to know about basketball can be learned from reading the box scores and ESPN player profiles.

I never “used Marvin’s knee as an excuse.” But because you invariably show how terrible your reading comprehension is (in other words, because you’re an idiot), I’m not surprised that you think so. I said JJ is quicker than Marvin. I said that fact was “doubly” true because of Marvin’s knee. Do you see the difference, little buddy? Or do you need to go back to high school and take English again?

Yeah, JJ has guarded Granger in the past…because that’s the matchup that made the most sense given the Pacers’ personnel. They have Granger, Dunleavy, and Murphy. We have JJ, Marvin, and Josh to guard them. Josh is the strongest and least agile. JJ is the shortest and quickest. Marvin is the tallest and longest. Given their respective skill sets, the most sensible matchup is to put JJ on Granger (the shortest and quickest of those 3), Marvin on Dunleavy

Base on your theory, Marvin was the defensive catalyst against Lebron

Something else I never said, Melvin. Stop lying and learn to read. And go watch some actual basketball games while you’re at it so you know what the hell you’re talking about.

You’re an idiot, Melvin. A dishonest idiot. A dishonest idiot who talks out of his ass incessantly. And you’re a gutless one, at that, because you don’t even have the guts to speak up and say which it was – were you lying or talking out of your ass when you laid the blame on Marvin during the Miami game?

Which was it, Melvin? Until you man up and answer that, why the hell should anyone care what you have to say? Because you sure as hell don’t know enough about basketball to make it worthwhile.

Astro Joe

November 17th, 2010
3:08 pm

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
3:10 pm

*Given their respective skill sets, the most sensible matchup is to put JJ on Granger (the shortest and quickest of those 3), Marvin on Dunleavy (taller but slower), and Josh on Murphy/McRoberts (tallest, strongest, less agile of the 3).

Oh, and by the way you dumb useless liar – I’ve never said that Marvin is a vastly superior defender to JJ. On the contrary, I’ve said that they both are very good defenders, but that Marvin’s height and length makes him more versatile. The matchup of who is assigned to guard whom varies based on the matchup. But hey, I wouldn’t expect someone as ignorant as you – who thinks defense is soooooooo overrated anyway – to actually be able to appreciate little nuances like that.

O'Brien

November 17th, 2010
3:11 pm

In other news, Eva Longoria will soon be a free agent.

From espn.com;

LOS ANGELES — Eva Longoria has filed for divorce from Tony Parker, citing irreconcilable differences..

Maybe she didnt want to stay in San Antonio after all.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
3:11 pm

*Marvin’s height and length makes him more versatile, while Joe’s agility makes him a better choice to guard quicker players.

doc

November 17th, 2010
3:24 pm

okay vava, i will laugh at myself for going there, only you didnt find a game collins has played 25 minutes, not quite the criteria i requested. ;-) close but no cigar.

in all seriousness there have been twelve games played, collins has played in 7. he has played 20 minutes in 2, 10 minutes in one game less than 5 minutes in 4. please dont try to blind me with those numbers as the sampling error is huge. i can remember when after about five games aj was in a dither about josh’s fg% being so low for a pf. it now rests above 50%. several of us suggested that and astro kind of conceded the point.

please dont try to make collins out to be a world beater in any way with your numbers or otherwise. he is a tree out there plain and simple. his plus minus if a regular rotation guy would not look like that or i would hope LD would use him. he is also a foul machine when in the games he gets in. he is a necessary evil on this team that historically cant find a way to get a legitimate defensive threat in the post. i find your points 2 and 3 valid though.

may i add, point 3 in no way reflects on collins or meeting present needs but the need to be somehow developing a big player instead of having pape sy on the bench filling out that position. that is a sad oversight for the future as point guards from france beyond parker are not nba quality certainly not a second stringer in france. again, it has nothing to do with the discussion on collins and his relevance to the 2010 hawks. i wouldnt suggest any of those guys as having the ability to step in and play meaningful minutes on a regular basis. that also describes collins in a way.

if you point out that collins is a very narrow and limited player with some defensive skill and utility against the perfect opponent for him then fine. specialty artists with that limited range is not what i have in mind to fill the void that needs to be filled. with discussions around al j earlier this year and his inability to play defense, he seemed to have very good games against the best and filled out the score sheet. there are other players that might be able to do the same in limited minutes and limited salaries and i hope we finally land one one day. just now i dont consider collins that guy.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
3:24 pm

You know what? Forget it, Melvin. You lack either the honesty or mental capacity to respond to my posts accurately. You constantly ascribe views to me that I’ve never stated (which means you’re either a liar or an idiot), which is why I feel more than justified in insulting you.

Until you can at LEAST man up and tell me which it was for the Miami game – lying or talking out of your ass – then you’re not worth talking to. Because you need to recognize how often you say $h!t that anyone who actually had bothered to WATCH the game would know was BS. You’ll never man up to doing it constantly (which you do), but you need to at least show that you have the balls to admit what the cause of it was that time, which was the most painfully blatant example from the past few weeks.

Melvin

November 17th, 2010
3:54 pm

“Oh wait, no it’s not. Watching the game is the best way to tell. Which is what I did. And it was easy to tell that Dunleavy was consistently assigned to guard the Hawks SF and was placed away from the top of the key throughout the game, which means *gasp* he was playing SF!”

Oh my goodness, have you EVER PLAYED organizes basketball. Have you not heard of the term CROSS MATCH-UP in some of those basketball books/magazines that you read? Dunleavy played on the wing where most SG’s and SF’s play. The Pacers did not magically change what they do on offense against the Hawks. Granger still played his normal SF position and got the ball in his sweet spots along the perimeter. Only thing the Pacers did differently was have Granger guard Joe (SG) on defense. Nire, it’s very evident that your basketball analysis is weak and you try to name call and be-little people to strength your arguments. So go ahead a write another drawn out post in response to mine, then say how you are wasting your time responding.

“Which was it, Melvin? Until you man up and answer that, why the hell should anyone care what you have to say?”

*just kick my surge protector* laughing at you trying to get me to confess to one of your lame questions, as if we are in court.

Melvin

November 17th, 2010
4:04 pm

Nire,

“Until you can at LEAST man up and tell me which it was for the Miami game”

What is there to man up to? In case you have forgot, my point to you was Marvin defense is overrated especially by some of the bloggers here. If you take offense to that, than you are saying the opposite. You reference one preseason game, proves what? Lebron will abuse Marvin when the game counts and I will be here to remind you of it…

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
4:26 pm

Thanks, Melvin. You just confirmed that in a addition to being a dumb liar who talks out of his ass, you also don’t have the guts to own up when you do it. In other words, you’re a coward.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
4:29 pm

Until you answer the question, Melvin, I’ll be posting this in response to everything you say:

Which was it in the Miami game, Melvin – were you lying or talking out of your ass?

I’m not kidding. Not bluffing. Until you work up the moral courage to admit that you were doing one or the other, I will ask that question of you every single time you post on here.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
4:39 pm

Nire, it’s very evident that your basketball analysis is weak and you try to name call and be-little people to strength your arguments.

Yeah, ok Melvin. You’re the one who consistently gets caught talking out of his ass and who, as vava put it, “only know[s] to look at boxscores when bball is much more than that.” But I don’t know anything about basketball. Yeah, ok.

Which was it in the Miami game, Melvin – were you lying or talking out of your ass?

O'Brien

November 17th, 2010
7:36 pm

My opinion of Collins.

He is a very good third string center, and against certain players (like Howard), he is a good option for 5 minute stretches. Anything over that (imo), is too much of a risk.

But although he does a decent job on defense, he is also prone to fouling. 12 personal fouls in 69 minutes of playing time, with most of them probably being on the defensive end, because he only has 12 FGA.

Oh, and he only has 12 rebounds in those 69 minutes.

I am pleasantly surpised by his level of play this season, but the guy is a third string/situational center for a reason.

O'Brien

November 17th, 2010
7:39 pm

One guy the Hawks could have signed instead of Etan, is Earl Barron. Earl is 7′0″, 250 lbs, and in 7 games for the Knicks last season, he averaged 12 points and 11 rebounds per game.

I dont know how good he is, but we could have taken a flyer on him, instead of Etan. if Etan gets reular PT, I’m afraid he’ll get hurt again.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
8:32 pm

O’B,

If memory serves, we had Barron in training camp or minicamp a year ago and he didn’t impress. I haven’t seen him play with the Knicks yet, but the team did get a look at him.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
8:39 pm

Funny – it looks like the Suns have both of our 2009 big man minicamp rejects on their roster this year – Barron and Siler. Barron has yet to play in a game. Siler has played a total of 17 minutes over 3 games, with 1 point, 2 boards, 2 blocks, 5 turnovers, and 3 fouls.

Astro Joe

November 17th, 2010
9:17 pm

nire, they just signed Barron in the last 2-3 days… I think after Lopez went down with an injury. He’s probably still learning how to shoot in 7 seconds or less.

O'Brien

November 17th, 2010
9:45 pm

nire,

As AJ said, they just signed Barron a day or two ago.

i didnt know the Hawks had a first hand look at him a couple seasons ago, and I never wacthed him play much.

I just saw that he averaged 12 and 11 with the Knicks over 7 games (although it was the end of the season when teams were out of it), but I figured he might be worth a look (instead of Etan).

Dept. of Unintended irony

November 17th, 2010
10:11 pm

“I’ve actually started using the term “pulling a Melvin” when people just start talking out of their ass on a daily basis. ”

“*Dunleavy was at SF. Sorry, got my white boys mixed up.”

LOL, nire pulled a Melvin. Again.

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
10:16 pm

There’s a difference between mixing up overrated white boys and talking out of your ass, DOUI.

Dept. of Unintended irony

November 17th, 2010
10:20 pm

“Yeah, because looking at the Yahoo box score is the best way to tell what position someone is playing during a game. Oh wait, no it’s not. Watching the game is the best way to tell. Which is what I did.”

Which is why I thought a PF named Troy Murphy was playing shooting guard.
Oops, well one of those white boys. ROFLMAO. If you have ANY idea what Murphy looks like, how could you think Dunleavy (weighing in at about a buck sixty) was Troy?

Melvin

November 17th, 2010
10:24 pm

“Until you answer the question, Melvin, I’ll be posting this in response to everything you say:
Which was it in the Miami game, Melvin – were you lying or talking out of your ass?”

First of all, what point are you trying to prove with that lame question? I have clearly stated in the past that I think Marvin defense was overrated. Now can you be man enough to clearly state your point of view in this matter and stop cherry picking on mine (and others post) without stating your position in response.
Back to your question, if you want to hear that Lebron scored 13 of his 21 1st half pts while Marvin WAS NOT in the game then you should know that in the 2nd half Lebron scored 15 of 17pts while Marvin WAS in the game. That 23 of his 38pts scored while Marvin was in the game. So again, what point are you trying to prove with that stupid question? Man up and state your view for the record.

http://www.nba.com/games/20101021/MIAATL/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore

Melvin

November 17th, 2010
10:25 pm

DOUI,

I wonder if Nire realize that Troy Murphy got traded to the Nets this past summer…

niremetal

November 17th, 2010
10:26 pm

Which was it in the Miami game, Melvin – were you lying or talking out of your ass?