Hawks Fans: Jamal Crawford – Pay him or trade him?

Paging Rick Sund. Paging Rick Sund. I hope you’ve enjoyed your vacation, because it might be getting cut just a bit short, what with Jamal Crawford making some noise.

Then again, Sund is not known for being a quick mover in this business. Here’s a question for you right out of the gate, though. Will Sund move with near the swiftness in either paying or dealing Jamal, as he did in acquiring him? Of course, such a question comes with some caveats. One is that we don’t know whether that trade (in which the Hawks sent guards Acie Law and Speedy Claxton to Golden State for Jamal Crawford) just fell into Sund’s lap, or if it was something both the Warriors and the Hawks were planning for some time, or what. Does it really matter? As it stands, Sund is not known for hurrying to make any move (see Josh Smith, Josh Childress, etc), outside of the quick and attractive offer made to Joe Johnson shortly after the free agency period began. Where does Jamal and his demands stand?

So Jamal would rather be somewhere else playing than in Atlanta, if he can’t get an extension he finds to his liking? Isn’t this the same guy who signed a clause in his contract with Atlanta, stating that he would not opt out of the final year of his contract (that would be THIS year), in the trade that brought him here? Do you think he’s being selfish, or is he doing the smart thing from a business standpoint? Is this related to the looming Collective Bargaining Agreement, or is it personal? While you think about that, let’s look at the two options Jamal has put on the table, and what either of them could mean for the team.

 

PAY HIM !

Do you even have to think about it? Jamal is the reigning Sixth Man of they Year. He averaged roughly 18 points per game, which is no mean feat in the NBA. He was the second option on offense. Not only that, but aside from Joe Johnson, who else on this team is  a bonafide scorer/shooter at that level? I’m not talking about just being able to score in the teens. I’m talking about being able to lead a team in scoring. Being able to put up 20 or 30 points on any given night. Being able to take an opponent off the dribble. Being able to create your own shot anywhere inside the half court line. Who else on this team (again, aside from Joe) can do his own thing, and still score 18-20 or more, even on a bad shooting night (i.e. 7 for 21)? Josh Smith? Al Horford? That is the closest you’re going to get, and neither of those guys can get to the line enough to make up for bad shooting or a stifling defense. Not yet, anyway.

What happens if Joe Johnson incurs a serious injury? Who then can step up on offense? Mike Bibby? Sure, he has the range and the stroke, but is he still capable of getting those kinds of points for a couple of games? How about five to ten games? Twenty? Can Marvin Williams do it? Do I really have to ask? Lose Jamal, and you put some pressure back on Joe Johnson and the others. Lose Jamal, and you lose some things. You lose a guy who will take and make a long 3-pointer as the buzzer sounds, without flinching. You lose a guy who can excite the crowd. You lose a guy who can energize the team off the bench. Unless of course you think there are others on the bench who can come in and be that potent a threat. Can Mo Evans do that? Without Jamal, is the bench more than a bunch of also-rans?

 

TRADE HIM!

Pay him more money, are you crazy? We just signed Bibby to a contract before last season, that pays him roughly $6 million per year, and what was the reward? We got to watch his game decline as the year wore on. The same thing could happen with Jamal to some extent, as he is not going to get better as time goes on, not at the age of 29 or 30. Besides, we have two major things going for us – One is Larry Drew’s phenomenal offensive approach, which will not be based on isolation plays. Two, we have Jordan Crawford, who is a talent in his own right. And we don’t want him to rot away on the bench all season the way Teague nearly did last season, do we?

Look how stacked we are at the shooting guard position. There is Joe Johnson, Jamal Crawford, Mo Evans, and Jordan Crawford. Is this good team balance? How do you divide those minutes up without moving Joe and Jamal to other positions (small forward and point guard, respectively)? Is that efficient use of the team, or will it create matchup problems the Hawks don’t want to find themselves in? Also, doesn’t this team need a guy more suited to backup small forward? How about a third point guard in case Teague doesn’t pan out so well, or struggles all season? What about a better big man that the bench currently boasts? Couldn’t moving Jamal address one or more of those positions? Besides, the development of Teague and Jordan Crawford is pivotal for future considerations.

Back to Drew’s offense. If the idea is to move the ball around more and make more potent and efficient scorers out of the entire lineup, then will Jamal’s scoring prowess be needed at the level it was last season? Would he get the kind of shots and stats that made him Sixth Man of the Year last season? If not, does that diminish his value to the team? This team has one guy who can go into isolation mode if necessary, and will have to learn not to do so on a regular basis. Why keep a second one who might have the exact same issues?

 

So which route do you think the Hawks should go? Pay Jamal, or trade him….and why? Also, if he’s extended, how much should he be paid? The Hawks might want to be careful here, as an extension must also be reached with Al Horford, if the they don’t want to play the “watch, then match” game next summer, the way they did with Josh Smith. It’s rarely wise to do that with an All-Star player, particularly a young and promising one. Also, what ramifications might this have on the payroll? The Hawks want no part of the luxury tax, Pape Sy may not come over this year (if that buyout doesn’t work out), and the 13th roster spot has to be filled at some point.

201 comments Add your comment

[...] Hawks Fans: Jamal Crawford ? Pay him or trade him?Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog)He averaged roughly 18 points per game, which is no mean feat in the NBA. He was the second option on offense. Not only that, but aside from Joe Johnson, …and more » [...]

NikkiFree

August 28th, 2010
3:02 pm

ASG really mucked things up when they signed JJ to that absolutely ridiculous contract. I refuse to go to any games or cheer for the Hawks again until there are new owners or JJ is gone — whatever comes first. Of course, I’m just one person so I won’t matter.
I like Jamal Crawford. Unfortunately, with ASG spending so much money on JJ it has cost them resigning Crawford. Good luck wherever you go, Jamal. Atlanta will continue to be fair to middling for years to come thanks to poor ownership/GM decision-making.

STRETCH

August 28th, 2010
3:11 pm

TRADE…its a no brainer! Got too many SG’s.

Steve

August 28th, 2010
3:11 pm

Trade him and get some value.

STRETCH

August 28th, 2010
3:24 pm

Wow Steve…looks like U and I are the only ones who gives a damn i guess? LOL!

Josh Kinsey

August 28th, 2010
3:30 pm

Follow me on twitter @jkinsey60 for all things hawks!! plus all GA Sports!! I have already posted a trade on my twitter account for the hawks to get rid of Jamal!!

BrittishAnger

August 28th, 2010
3:33 pm

Who else would want him and what would we get in return? Until those answers outweigh “The Difference” he’s brought us, I say lets at least start talks about a possible extension. I honestly think ASG would prefer to deal with both Jamal and Al next off-season when all the one-year back-ups can get waived and when they can get a decent skew of how much one player will deserve over the other. I also believe Jamal shouldn’t join this march of conjoined-trade-fetus garbage along with ‘Melo and Chris…Even for the ugliness of our season long failings with Orlando, nothing occurred that tells me Jamal’s current state is warranted or even validated…Sure, Hawks fans haven’t had much to discuss this offseason, but I’d swear on three copies of Maniac Magee I wasn’t looking for this….

antoinette

August 28th, 2010
3:35 pm

Trade em, why get paid way less when u have to do way more 2 capture a win.and joe doesn’t wanna win,

[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Samantha Stone, Vacation People, Cathleen Ann Mackay, Nubyjas Wilborn, Michael Cunningham and others. Michael Cunningham said: AJC's fan blog: Hawks Fans: Jamal Crawford – Pay him or trade him? http://bit.ly/bzF3g9 [...]

Brazil Boy

August 28th, 2010
4:03 pm

Trade em to the Suns for Childress and Lawal!

MaxxHawk

August 28th, 2010
4:10 pm

MC- Say we were to trade Jamal, what do you think are the most likely trade scenarios, meaning who do you think are the most likely players we would acquire for him?

000

August 28th, 2010
4:19 pm

trade him and lets get Greg Oden and frutty Fernandez

NCBravesFan

August 28th, 2010
4:57 pm

I’d trade him for a few reasons, most notably:

1. I doubt the Hawks will be willing to pay Jamal and Al Horford. Al is more important to the team long-term.

2. He’s not getting any younger, and we have younger replacements.

3. He’s not a good defender.

FWIW

Jay B.

August 28th, 2010
4:59 pm

Since patience is a virtue, GM Sund should be patient, see how Jordan Crawford looks in the new offense, and then just before the trade deadline send Jamal and Maurice Evans to Sacramento for the expiring contracts of C Samuel Dalembert and SF Antoine Wright.

Dalembert brings shot-blocking, defense and rebounding while Wright is a bigger defender at SF than Evans. And, if they don’t work out, use them next off season in a sign-and-trade, say to Dallas for Tyson Chandler.

Thoughts?

Basketball Knowledge

August 28th, 2010
5:01 pm

You guys don’t know NOTHING about basketball. It kills me to hear you fools talk about trading Crawford. He is a bona fide star in the NBA. He is BETTER than Joe Johnson, especially considering the money angle. If Sund doesn’t move quickly and looses Crawford, he should be kicked out of the league. It is my opinion his management style sucks anyway.

drmaryb (*_*)

August 28th, 2010
5:26 pm

Blu-Ray
(DP 1050)

Jamal also made more career 4 point plays than Reggie Miller last year as a Hawk! For the first time in his career, Jamal can become an UFA and choose his own team. And, he chose the Hawks!

What else does the “A” want, if not to sign and pay players that actually want to play here?

Word on the street is Sund is not worried about Jamal’s trade demand and will offer him an extension next week that they are sure he will sign.

atlienforlife

August 28th, 2010
5:29 pm

First of all, I’m not the biggest joe johnson fans, but there is no way that crawford is BETTER then him. Jamal is an awful defensive player and very limited passer. He is a hired gun, and in woodsons iso offense, he looked good.

atlienforlife

August 28th, 2010
5:33 pm

I say call denver, and see if they are willing to take Jamal, Marvin, and either teague or Jordan, for Melo.

Bibby, Teague or Jordan
Joe Johnson,
Carmelo, Evans
Josh, Josh Powell

Nice Squad!!!
Horford, Zaza

c. wheeler

August 28th, 2010
5:40 pm

Enter your comments here

Remarkable

August 28th, 2010
6:05 pm

Why do either? Keep him, make him play out his contract, then use the cap room next year to sign Al or better a true center. Al Horford is a great guy. I like him a lot, but he is not a center, he is a powerforward. One of the three Smith, Williams, Horford) has to go to make room for a true center. Jamal gave his word he would play out his contract. Make him keep it. Why do we let athletes renig on their contracts?
I’d like to keep Jamal for two or three more years, but not at the price I think he wants. The pay scale has to go DOWN from here on in, not up.

drmaryb (*_*)

August 28th, 2010
6:51 pm

Remarkable

Jamal does not have to stay here after next year on our terms.
He will be a UFA. If we want him we will have to pay markeþ value or he walks.

It will be his last contract and he better look out for himself!
Bump these Hawks!

O'Brien

August 28th, 2010
7:34 pm

Ray,

I think the hawks plan is to let jamal play out his contract. That gives Jordan 1 year of development, and then when Jamal walks next offseason, they would use it to give horford his raise.

If I am rick, I would try and trade Jamal for an expiring big (like pryzbilla, Chandler, dalembert). The problem is I don’t know who is available, and That’s why I Think Jamal should have been traded already.

We resigned jj, drafted Jordan, and Evans said he was staying. Between Evans and Jordan, I think they would have done a decent job filling the backup SG spot. Then we could have signed Carney, wilkens, etc as the backup SF.

dstdeelite

August 28th, 2010
8:30 pm

I’m sorry but when did Mo Evans become a servicable replacement for anybody? I watched 82 games last year and I missed that. I love JC but for the right price. Same with JJ…I wanted to keep him but at the right price. We see how that went.

niremetal

August 28th, 2010
9:20 pm

Astro,

In response to your last post directed against me: First, I was calling the person who posted at 9:53 am a coward, because he hid behind a made-up handle when insulting me. If that was you, then yes – you are a coward. If not, then you’re just a lying jackass.

And you are a lying jackass. You set up a straw man with me on that last thread, for the billionth time. But since you are either too dumb or too dishonest to acknowledge that was what you are doing, I’m using the more blunt, less precise term – lying. You made it sound like I said something that I didn’t. That makes you a lying jackass. Same as you always have been.

Stop being a lying jackass, and I’ll stop being a blunt jackass. But until then, why the hell should I be civil with someone who has absolutely no problem with twisting my words, and keeps on doing it no matter what I say to him?

Bluestreak

August 28th, 2010
9:37 pm

Jamal is not a Bona Fide Star in the NBA. He had a great year last year, but this guy is on his 6th or 7th team. Bona Fide starts don’t get traded around like that. So we should get held up by a guy who doesn’t want to live up to his contract? I think not. Either make him play through his contract (which really isn’t the best idea, since a malcontent on the team is not good) or trade him high and get the most you can.

niremetal

August 28th, 2010
9:39 pm

And the Hawks should trade Jamal. But the idea O’Brien floated on the last thread – trade him for an expiring big – won’t take, unless there’s a team that has an expendable expiring big with a greater need at the wing (I don’t see any). Because why would a team with an expiring big man trade that expiring big man for Jamal? It wouldn’t save them any money, since both guys will be expiring at the same time. The reason expiring contracts are valuable is not because they can be flipped for other expiring contracts; it’s because they can be flipped to a team looking to unload a player with a long-term contract (in which case, acquiring the expiring deal would make money).

My hope is that the Hawks will make a trade using Jamal’s contract not unlike the ones they used to get Bibby and Jamal in the first place – acquire a good, but probably slightly overpriced player on a longer-term deal with a team that’s either looking to rebuild or has a glut of players at a position of need. Potential targets include Marcus Camby (assuming the Blazers trade Rudy, they’ll need a wing to come off the bench, and they’ll still have Oden/Prz/Aldridge), Iguodala (the rumor mill is building that the Sixers are ready to fold the tent), Devin Harris (loooooong shot, since I don’t think the Nets need the cap space), or Nene (he has a big player option coming up next summer that the Nuggets will likely want to avoid).

Ironically, for all the talk about Billups and Melo, I think Nene is our most likely target on Denver. Other teams can and will offer way more attractive packages for Melo than we can, and since Billups’ deal is not guaranteed past this year anyway, the Nuggets have no incentive to flip him for an expiring deal and won’t be looking to take on long-term contracts if they’re blowing the team up. Nene, on the other hand, is basically in the same place this year as Jamal was when we acquired him – he has a pricey player option that he’s likely to exercise and that most teams won’t want to pay (because let’s face it, Nene ain’t worth $11.5M/yr anymore), so he might not draw that much interest if the Nugs decide to nuke the roster.

niremetal

August 28th, 2010
9:40 pm

* (in which case, acquiring the expiring deal would save money).

niremetal

August 28th, 2010
9:41 pm

* a glut of players at a position where the Hawks have a need

hawksfan23

August 28th, 2010
10:10 pm

i know it is better to trade him than have an unruly player but he is a scorer that makes his own play which we dont have besides johnson, but i would like to get 10 mil off the books my thought is that asg is saving there big moves for next off season but if we could do something now why not? say a trade involving the nuggets sending jamal, marvin, and somebody else for anthony! that would make us contenders and cap releif . i know its hard to believe but i still think asg are saving up for something big but why not make a big move right now to make us a contender instead of trusting in your core?

O'Brien

August 28th, 2010
11:04 pm

Nire,

I like Marcus camby too. But I don’t think Portland will trade him because he is fairly healthy. I think they are more likely to trade pryzbilla because he has injury history, and they already have oden with his injury issues.

Would Portland do pryzbilla and Fernandez for Jamal?

the Guru

August 28th, 2010
11:05 pm

The hawks should make a blockbuster trade get a bonifide bigman for Jamal. He is a huge piece But he has a lot of value and his contract is expiring and we ain’t gonna pay him so make the trade for NeNe . Mr. Sund

Astro Joe

August 28th, 2010
11:07 pm

They should have traded for Dalembert after Cousins showed his stuff in the summer league. And shortly thereafter, there was a report that Sactown wanted to find a shooter off the bench. But sameness (and inertia) reigns.

nire, whatever man. Your insistence that someone is distorting your opinion, twisting your words and assaulting your honor is growing as old as the corn on the bottom of my foot.

O'Brien

August 28th, 2010
11:12 pm

I think it was Najeh who first proposed it, but I think it works for both teams. When Brandon Roy misses games, Jamal would fill in nicely anew they would get rid of Rudy. And we would get a serviceable big and SG.

You suggested the hawks trade for a longer term player, but I don’t think that will work. Next season mo comes off the books, but horford will probably get a raise to more than $13 mil. And the hawks do NOT want to go into luxury tax. That’s why I think they need an expiring contract for Jamal.

Dr, Dee

August 28th, 2010
11:24 pm

Give Jamal a contract and trade Joe / Bibby for Chandler / C. Butler / Domonique Jones. The results; the Defence will improve, the scoring will remain the same, and their will be 25 million in salary reduction for next year.

niremetal

August 28th, 2010
11:45 pm

Melvin

August 29th, 2010
12:17 am

Will the Hawks consider trading Jamal for a big if they sign Ethan Thomas…

D.S.G.B.

August 29th, 2010
12:22 am

trade jamal and marvin for melo. i think that is a good trade the salaries are pretty even and well actually have more salary room.

doc

August 29th, 2010
1:20 am

astro, knowing you are no coward watching you for six years now i will point out that though you are now in favor of trading jamal you were never in favor of him being here. if he hadnt been here last year we would not have won the 53 games you have held so dearly too and enjoyed so much last year even in the face of the many flaws that we pointed out to you and the others on the train of over enthusiasm last year and te 53 wins you gave cred to woody on and talked about incessantly this summer. if that benchmark werent there and jamal gone you would lose a great big part of your steam you have been building on this summer to point out how woody should not have been fired and will remind us of if ld falls short, no? can you stand to see all your puff of the summer go up in smoke if jamal is traded?

dont like melo’s game but could stand it if we traded marvin and bibby for him and maybe one of their lesser bigs in a heart beat even if it was for only one year. then i would look to the choices we would have to convert jamal into a longer term arrangement for a point guard and or big.

i_am_soulstar

August 29th, 2010
1:55 am

Package Jamal Crawford, Marvin WIlliams, Bibby, and a 1st round pick
& trade for
Carmelo Anthony (extend and trade) and JR Smith

It works on ESPN trade machine..

And Denver would go for it because they have are going to have headache finding someone to take JR Smith. So you have to believe that the most eligible suitors for the Melo trade are those will take JR as well.

We not only get a starting lineup of

PG Jeff Teague
SG Jos Johnson
SF Carmelo Anthony
PF Josh Smith
C Al Horford

but we also get rid of all of our bad contracts. Denver gets Smith out of there, gets a young SF with lots of potential in Marvin, and the reigning 6th man of the year. Everybody wins!

truthspitter

August 29th, 2010
2:40 am

Trade him and it should not even be a lengthy discussion

MaxxHawk

August 29th, 2010
3:32 am

I meant Big Ray! My fault!

MaxxHawk

August 29th, 2010
3:33 am

But seriously, Jordan Crawford is a Jamal clone who can Defend better. If we could get a bonafide 7fter for him we should def trade him, no question

vava74

August 29th, 2010
4:26 am

Ray:

“You lose a guy who will take and make a long 3-pointer as the buzzer sounds, without flinching.”

You forgot to add a very important conclusion: “and miss in the clutch”

http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM

Look at his clutch stats… and you guys that say that he is better than JJ, compare them with JJ’s…

vava74

August 29th, 2010
4:28 am

My take:

nothing wrong with Jamal’s demands. It’s a business decision for him in light of the impending CBA.

nothing wrong if we decide to trade him and it would not have been wrong at all if we had tried to trade him before he diminished his value with the trade demand…

wordsmithtom

August 29th, 2010
6:39 am

Jamal wouldn’t play defence. He needs the ball…hardlly in keeping with LD’s intended offence. I think he’s doing us a favor asking for a trade now….while he still has value, ship him for a piece, one with an expiring contract. But, no hurry. If they get a Thomas thug in FA, then a 3 will do, as JC3 and Mo give us adaquate backup at 2. If no inforcer for bench, then a trade for a 1 makes sense. As long as it’s an expiring contract to help with next year’s signing of Al. Al’s the future; not Jamal.

kwooden1

August 29th, 2010
8:31 am

We have a problem with the number of shooting guards, but I don’t think we can solve anything right now with the situation. We can look for a decent big with Jamals contract, but the HAWKS have a problem with money. They’re clearly going to have to pay Horford next year. What I think the ASG is going to do is let JC play out his contract and let him go to pay Horford. If we have a great season then they might consider paying him, but that is the only way. I’m not certain there is a better plan than that because the HAWKS will have to pay somebody if they don’t pay JC. I wouldn’t mind trading him for Camby, but he’s been Portland’s only reliable Center so I doubt they would go for it.

Tha Real Hawk

August 29th, 2010
9:27 am

I am always amazed when supposed fans call for trades when a player asks for more money. Usually it can be after the player did nothing special. That is not the case with Jamal. Winner of 6th Man Award. Leading scorer in the playoffs. Winner of more games through last minute shots.
It’s just jealousy on the part of the fans and being cheap by the Hawks.
The management has shown all summer that they will not pay to improve this team and still the lemmings say “trade him.”
This is why we have the team we have: bad management and kool aid drinking fans.

O'Brien

August 29th, 2010
9:36 am

Nire,

I don’t think Portland can do any better. In the last 5 seasons, pryzbilla played more than 77 games twice, and in that same time, he missed over 100 games, including 50 last year.

Roy missed 17 games last year (and IMO, he came back too early, but he wanted to help in the playoffs). In 06-07, roy missed 25 games. With Jamal on board, they have the reigning SMOY who could fill in for Roy.

Plus they lost some ball handling when they got rid of Steve Blake, and nate’s offense from what I have read utilizes the ISOs as well, so Jamal would fit right in. And they would get rid of Fernandez.

Maybe we can throw in a second round pick too.

Astro Joe

August 29th, 2010
9:38 am

doc, absolutely. He helped me enjoy last season’s first 84 games, without a doubt. But you may recall that I was never too thrilled with a $10M “Flip Murray” on a team with a middling payroll. Once Joe signed, I thought that trading a SMOY with an expiring contract would be the smartest thing possible. Between Joe, Mo and JC2, I think we can cover the 48 minutes at SG with little problem.

I only mentioned Etan Thomas a few dozen times in the past 6 months, so I am happy to hear that he may be added to the roster. Obviously, he’s no savior, but I always liked his work ethic and this team is in desparate need (still) of tough, blue-collar, won’t-back-down players. If nothing else, Powell and Etan will bring a little brute to the team.

Astro Joe

August 29th, 2010
9:39 am

Co-sign vava at 4:28 (which is too dang early for me).

O'Brien

August 29th, 2010
9:44 am

P.S. – even if Portland can do better ( in terms of value), I think Jamal Would be the best fit.

Bill

August 29th, 2010
10:03 am

The best option for the Hawks would be to trade Bibby & Marvin, but who would take their salary & what could you get back ?? What would you want for Crawford ? The Hawks nedd a true quality center so Al could move to Power Forward, Josh to the 3. What would it take for the Hawks to get Marc Gasol from Memphis (he could be the center answer plus he is young enough to be a huge part of our core team).
The Hawks have some question marks ( Teague, Williams, the bench if they trade Jamal plus the East got a lot better during the off season).
Your opinions ???

Big Ray

August 29th, 2010
10:05 am

wordsmithtom ,

I’d take a thug and a 3 as well. But who should we go after?

Big Ray

August 29th, 2010
10:14 am

Vava ,

I think it’s a business decision as well. On the clutch shooting….was he not clutch against Phoenix and a few other teams? Aside from JJ and Bibby, who do you want taking a long distance shot at the end of a game? Bibby’s shot has to be an open one, just about, and I’ve seen both guys miss plenty of clutch shots.

niremetal

August 29th, 2010
10:19 am

O’Brien,

I think you’re missing the point. Przybilla’s trade value isn’t as a player. It’s as an expiring contract. Trading him for another expiring contract would make little sense.

Big Ray

August 29th, 2010
10:19 am

Bill ,

I can’t lie. I like Marc Gasol. But I’ll wager the Grizzlies like him a lot, too. Judging how they look down low, I’d say that acquiring Gasol means parting with Al Horford. Want to do that deal? And no, nobody is taking Bibby or Williams for the money we signed them to.

BrittishAnger ,

I hope that Sund has kept some ideas in mind all along about Jamal. Many of us considered him to be a most likely trade candidate at some point. Who knew he would be the first to speak an official word on the subject?

Big Ray

August 29th, 2010
10:22 am

AJ ,

Etan Thomas is a decent enough addition to the roster. I just hope he can be in good enough shape to get the PT it would take for him to make a dent for us down low. Otherwise, just another “past the point of usefulness” vet. Hope he’s got something left. We sure could have used him pre-heart condition…

Big Ray

August 29th, 2010
10:25 am

Basketball Knowledge ,

Jamal is better than Joe? Okay. Prove your argument. :)

Maxxhawk ,

I don’t think we know for sure that Jordan is a better defender than Jamal. He’s yet to play a single NBA game, or against an NBA starter. Just sayin’……

niremetal

August 29th, 2010
10:31 am

On a related note, Jamal is in for a VERY rude awakening during the next year if he thinks his market value is on par with Ginobili, Terry, or Gordon. As MC pointed out, Terry and Gordon were younger (and Gordon MUCH younger) when they signed their extensions. As for Manu, he is a far, FAR better all around player than Crawford. So is JT, for that matter.

Next summer, Crawford will be a 31 year old shooting guard whose only marketable skill is that he can be an explosive scorer when his shot is on. When it’s off (which is decently often), he is quite literally one of the most detrimental players to have on the floor in the NBA because he is useless defensively and doesn’t do any of the “little things.” And he wants a $10M+/yr contract at his age?

Jamal, if you’re reading this – go get a new agent. The one you have is giving you bad advice.

doc

August 29th, 2010
11:04 am

aj, etan has been a name, much like kurt thomas, that has been on our begging list for several years. i am not sure but maybe it was honest abe who was one of his cheerleaders before he underwent his aortic reconstruction. he is a second legit back up something we havent seen here ever it seems. maybe he still has enough in his tank to resemble the starter he wanted to be in his battles with brendon. we will see if they get him or whether someone comes in a steals him from under our noses for an extra coke and a hershey bar, figuratively speaking of course. ;-)

manu is one of the mainstays in san antonio. he was never the starter but the finisher. go back and read from almost day one, i dont care about who starts, really how many minutes a guy gets but who is finishing games. they are the guys reliable and team players with multiple skills. that is why it was so foolish that chills was summarily allowed to go his way as he had not been a stater but a finisher. that is a very under rated category. it is one that doesnt get the bucks, looks or respect but it is necessary to have five of them on the floor at the end of games. i dont think jamal is quite of that ilk but really close when he is hot. he is more of a comeback type of guy that can get hot and pour it on to make a lost game winnable. me, i’d rather not be in the position to be out of a game and need a guy like that but with our hawks it may be a necessary evil.

vava, by those numbers isnt josh our mr clutch? i think that was how it looked during the season as i didnt go back and restudy it today. those numbers for the most part are of course a too small sampling size which is true for many of these stats that wouldnt hold up under real close scrutiny of other variables but are fun to refer to anyway as a fan. maybe id like to see a comparative assessment of shots total shots taken in the fourth quarter of close games that brings a tie or lead as a measure, rather than whatever their qualification is regarding length of time left in a game or direct outcome.

doc

August 29th, 2010
11:05 am

“fantasy game looks”

sam'l

August 29th, 2010
11:22 am

Did Jamal play lousy defence? I don’t know. I was too busy watching him create an offence on a team that didn’t have one. I would say, take him out behind the gym and tell him…..you have to play defence……the whole team has to learn to play credible defence.

When has Jamal Crawford ever been an “unruly player”.? His attitude (and Horford’s) have been about the best I’ve seen. You can’t trade Jamal Crawford……that would be stupid.

Make Teague and the other Crawford learn from Price (and possibly Bibby). Make Bibby an assistant coach. Look at the idea of involving ten strong, agile men in a swarming, never say die defense.

Someone said they didn’t seen anything from Evans last season. He had a bad year…he was better before last year….same with Wiiliams.

If…..Drew can inject some enthusiasm, brains and intelligence into Williams, Evans, Pachulia and Teague, rookie Crawford…….and have 10 players who all play defence……….you might get 60 wins……

The situation in Miami will become increasingly unstable after a few losses. Certainly the refs will e under league-wide pressure to start calling Wade for his numerous palms and LeBron for his
extra hop to the basket. Perhaps Dwight Howard will be limited to just 6 fouls per game like everyone else. Just this factor alone would make the Hawks contenders.

In the words of Britney Spears, leave Jamal alone….. .

O'Brien

August 29th, 2010
1:12 pm

Nire,

I got it now. And I agree on Jamal in for a rude awakening. Between a new CBA and his age, he could be looking at a 20-30% pay cut.

AJ,

I noticed etan Thomas only appeared in 23 games last season for OKC. Was he injured, or was it Because he was third string?

gatorboyVee

August 29th, 2010
2:54 pm

Hello…to all the IDIOTS talking about trading Crawford are just not getting it!!!! He won the 6th man award last year….a bona-fide scorer and stud…and these IDIOTS think that he can just be traded for ANYBODY to fill the slot!!!! Atlanta fans have a crazy knee jerk reaction everytime a player wants a larger contract or something…he should just be traded for some other “cheaper” or more “deserving” character type player, who usually sucks!!!!…thats STUPID thinking at it`s best…thats why this city will never win a major championship in BBall of Football!!!! EVER!!!! Quit being cheap and play PLAYERS for what they are worth…this should be a no brainer…give the guy an extension…or it`s going to be a long season!!!

i_am_soulstar

August 29th, 2010
3:27 pm

I don’t think people want to see him go, we just understand that we’re dealing with with the ASG here. Seeing how Horford’s due for a raise, the real question is will the ASG go over the salary cap to keep Crawford. If history is any indicator, then they probably won’t.

Wink

August 29th, 2010
5:57 pm

First – Pay HIM.

Second – it’s not personal.

Third – it’s good business for ASG too!!!

Now for REALITY:

They want pay him. This allows the ASG to observe him in LD’s unique offense. They will probably move him at the trade deadline.

Jamal was insurance for Bibby & JJ during their respective contract negoiations. The removal of the player option was a way to guarantee they would at least have Jamal as a scoring option, if JJ signed with another team. Since both JJ & Bibby are signed policy has matured. By the way, Jordan Crawford was the insurance policy, should Jamal take his current stance. This is why SG appears crowded.

For Jamal it can’t be personal, because he okayed the contract giving up his right to opt out. However, if you just saw JJ break the bank and saw first hand how Sund deals with Free Agents (Josh, Chillz) and then add in CBA agreement expiring, your “SMOY”, now would be a good time to ask for an extention or a trade. Jamal either will get his extension which I think he really wants or he knows there is a job waiting for him somewhere in the NBA, without going through the Sund FA freeze.

Lastly, it should make sense that if you signed JJ your leading scorer to 6 years, surly your second leading scorer in the season & PLAYOFFS, deserves to be given a little security as well. Really, the guy gave up his opt out clause and added tremendous value to the team.

I might also add, when the shot clock is running down in the Brand NEW offense; there is quite a bit difference in Iso Joe & Iso Jamal. Iso Joe you are looking at a dancer vs Iso Jamal is head to the basket. My preference to beat the shot clock I would prefer the 2nd option, Iso Jamal.

I wish they would just pay the man, give him his extension and move on. I would not welcome the ASG selling the bill of goods that they would use Jamal’s money to address a need. They will only stash it away with the 3mil, 2.7mil under cap, cap exemption they have, along with other assets they sent overseas; were it not mandatory that they have a 13th player signed that slot would stay vancant as well.

ASG Cheap!!!!!!

Astro Joe

August 29th, 2010
8:34 pm

OB, honestly, I’m not sure of the reason for his lack of time. I actually thought that he started the year with the T’Wolves. Again, I lost track of him. He was an undersized center who played with tenacity and defended well in the post and was a good shot blocker in his “prime”. But I’m not delusional, he was never much more than a good reserve. Hopefully, he has another “good reserve” half-year left in him… when you rent players one year at a time for the minimum, that’s all you are asking for… 40 good games. Somewhere in between the 65+ good games we received from Flip 2 years ago and the 8 good games we got from Joe Smith last year. Speaking of my man Joe, is he still out there looking for a job?

Astro Joe

August 29th, 2010
8:43 pm

Wink said “Lastly, it should make sense that if you signed JJ your leading scorer to 6 years, surly your second leading scorer in the season & PLAYOFFS, deserves to be given a little security as well. Really, the guy gave up his opt out clause and added tremendous value to the team”.

I don’t think it makes sense to tie up over $25M of a $70M payroll in the SG position (or $30M if he stays for this season). Secondly, Jamal was asked to give uo his opt clause to accept a trade to the Hawks. The trade-off was getting away from Nellie (who was treating him like an ugly step-child) AND his best chance at a playoff berth. He got his pay-off, the playoffs, a coach who used him extensively AND a SMOY award. In return, he gave the Hawks a few more wins. Both parties got something out of the deal. No need for either to have an attitude of “you woe me”.

Astro Joe

August 29th, 2010
8:44 pm

“you owe me”.

O'Brien

August 29th, 2010
9:21 pm

AJ,

Right now, the Hawks have 40% of their payroll tied up on one position, SG.

JJ – $16.3 mil, Jamal – $10.8 mil, Jordan – $1 mil.

Which is why Jamal should have been traded already.

Mike

August 29th, 2010
10:18 pm

Crawfords one of the coldest players in the league. ATL doesn’t deserve him. Joe johnsons honestly jealous of crawfords K and overall game. Trade him to the Knicks so we can have our hero back. He could be Mellos new JR. Bring back jerred jefferies!

King Teezo

August 29th, 2010
10:25 pm

I see plenty of ppl do not agree with JJ getting a max deal, but according to the terms of the NBA it is what he was owed by ATL or any other team that wanted him, its called a raise…Im pretty sure when you are do for a raise at your current job that you wanna get the max, if not you’re looking for a new career plain n simple…JJ was gonna get $100 million regardless, just ATL had an extra year to offer…I’m a Hawk fan to the bone and yea the amount he got is a lot, but he deserves it for coming to a team that looked like a JV squad a few years ago and really ever since S. Smith and Blaylock left…You can say for sure that without JJ ATL would be a lottery team…As for Crawford, he just needs to kick back and play his heart out this season to up his value for next year b/c no team is gonna offer him an extension, trade or not unless its MIN or some other bottom of the barrel team…Its not like he helped ATL advance thru the playoffs b/c the same thing has happened 3 years in a row, early exits…Peace…

doc

August 30th, 2010
1:35 am

You guys are playing with numbers and it isnt as though when jj comes out Jamal exclusively the guy in. They do interchange between Jamal doing point and jj doing the three. Throw in that LD’s offense may need less of a point then they play plenty together. Why don’t you guys say it truthfully that about 28 mil of 67 goes to an avg of 42 of the 98 points per game. Looking at it that way it is about even production for pay.

vava74

August 30th, 2010
6:44 am

Jamal cannot start on a real playoff caliber team and last year he was over used by Woody.

He harmed us in many occasions in almost the same measure as he helped us. He should have been used more sparingly.

Spectacular? Yes, extremely, but also a huge liability. Nothing against him, but he simply can’t play D and its a two way game.

Last years’ team was weaker that 08-09: less defense, less toughness.

Better record almost purely on account of lack of significant injuries and Josh and Al’s progress.

Jamal added showmanship more than actual results and accelerated Bibby’s decline (which lead also to a worse 4th quarter management and lot of droughts).

I love the guy, seems a stand up character, but he should be getting 20/24 minutes of play time only and carefully managed.

O'Brien

August 30th, 2010
7:11 am

doc,

The 42 points were partly based on Woody’s ISO offense where JJ and Jamal had tons of opportunities.

But LD has said he expects more from Al, and that Marvin didnt know his role, and that Teague will get the opportunity to earn more PT, so I think JJ and Jamal’s 42 ppg will go down with more ball sharing.

Plus LD’s defensive philosophy was “guard your man or else”. One thing Jamal cannot do very well, is guard his man, and if Teague earns his PT, then Jamal’s PT could (and should) decrease.

If the Hawks were a team who was wiliing to go into luxury tax, then I would feel more strongly about keeping Jamal. But given our $ limitations, I think that $10.8 mil could be better utilizied.

drmaryb (*_*)

August 30th, 2010
7:59 am

Swiss Bank Account!

Wink said: ” They will only stash it away with the 3mil, 2.7mil under cap, cap exemption they have, along with other assets they sent overseas; were it not mandatory that they have a 13th player signed that slot would stay vancant as well.”

Do you think the ASG maybe have a Swiss Bank Account to stash their savings?

Astro Joe

August 30th, 2010
9:07 am

doc, in a league where centers are still important and PGs are exponentially growing in import, it feels like a bad distribution of funds to me. We can likely live with it for another season, but I am steadfast against signing a back-up SG for more than $4M in the long-term.

O'Brien

August 30th, 2010
11:21 am

Traditionally, PG has been one of the most important positions in the NBA. And if Teague does not pan out, we will be looking for a PG again next offseason. By then, Bibby should be a backup, or traded. And good PGs dont come cheap.

Another important position is center, and our all star center will be in line for a big pay raise next offseason.

So the Hawks will be mindful of that in whatever decisions they make.

doc

August 30th, 2010
11:22 am

how can you guys argue that they both play the same position when one played 40 mpg and the other played 31 mpg. they both played starter minutes and delivered results worthy of what they are being paid. simple math suggests that. is marvin more important than jamal? can we wait until this experiment is done with with the LD offense before we put all our eggs into that basket unless you deliver me a qualified big man for jamal to share the load and somehow pick up another wing man to boot? he aint no backup anymore than chills was not starter ilk. they were both finishers. i put my money on those type of guys and why manu is close to worth the price san antoine is paying him. dont give away jamal nor even sign him long term if it means sacrificing the only thing and the true saving grace for the askg of what fell into their laps to save them from their ignorance mr al horford. make him an offer just like you did jj so he can refuse it and keep going, then reassess at all star time.

Big Ray

August 30th, 2010
1:14 pm

Here’s the thing: what’s being reported is that Jamal wants an extension. Not a word has been said about how much money he wants. And I think he and his agent are quite well aware of what the new CBA will mean for players….hence the hedging for a contract NOW….

Big Ray

August 30th, 2010
1:26 pm

Doc,

No kidding, it’s the finishers that make a difference. Can’t remember how many times Jamal finished a game instead of either Bibby or Williams. How about 82 times? ;)

At the same time, I don’t want too much dough tied up in SGs either. And, I wonder what the Hawks would be willing to pay Jamal. My guess is they’ll go the route of making him play the year out. Either that or trade him if they think they can get more useable pieces that way, but I’m not seeing how that works out, as I don’t know what we could get. What I don’t see is an extension. Not with Horford on the horizon. And they are NOT going into luxury tax for any reason (say what they will, but Gearon pretty much set the bar at Lebron being a good reason to do so), so….

Astro Joe

August 30th, 2010
1:50 pm

What I find strange is that almost (if not all) of the reports are coming from media outside of Atlanta. Why not use media members with a direct line to Sund? Either the AJC crew or Sekou?

Sorry, but if Sund suddenly decides to start offering contract extensions (which seems to be something he doesn’t do), then Jamal needs to stand in line behind Horford.

doc

August 30th, 2010
3:52 pm

aj he “offered” jj an extension just last year didnt he? why say he doesnt and has anyone really deserved one besides jj and maybe al. jamal at least deserves time at the table is my suggestion, see where folks are, how contentious it might be and then make a decision. i like al but i dont now if he is the caliber say durant, roy or paul were the most recent guys to get extensions before their time was due. i still see al hopefully going up, where those guys showed they were already there. i dont want to hang my hat on a 14/9 center for the max is all i am saying.

practically speaking, it behooves jamal to go now to a team that could pay more by him being a part of their team now and resign him than to wait to be dealt is how they described it in one of the articles i read about it. also jj and sund knew if jj waited he stood to gain from it in terms of what the hawks could offer before and after the season. however, they went through the formality anyway.

drmaryb (*_*)

August 30th, 2010
4:00 pm

Well Fellow Bloggers!

Some more breaking newz: Turner settles sale dispute with David McDavid.
The terms of the 281M settlement are not disclosed, but Turner Broadcasting does not want to drag out this seven year dispute any longer.

McDavid originally sued for 450M.

O'Brien

August 30th, 2010
5:32 pm

More Breaking news. From hoopshype.com by way of hoopsmarket.com;

Finally, the Atlanta Hawks have reached an agreement for the buy-out of Pape Sy with Le Havre, the current club of the 22-year-old French guard.

Sy was selected with the 53rd overall pick in the last NBA draft by the Hawks, after averaging 5.2 points and 1.7 rebounds per game in the last French Pro A league for Le Havre .

If this is true, is he the 13th guy, or the 14th guy?

Melvin

August 30th, 2010
5:32 pm

Rufus1

August 30th, 2010
5:58 pm

Hawks Offseason..I am Happy

Big man depth, new coach, new small forward, new offense and the promise that our young PG will get his chance….I can’t complain.

Astro Joe

August 30th, 2010
7:27 pm

doc, I say that because Sund has been quoted as saying that he likes guys to play on the last year of their deal. Joe was an exception, which is why I used the term “seems” as opposed to making it a definitive statement. Maybe I should have sugested that he “usually doesn’t” offer extensions. The value of Joe and Jamal are not in the same time zone. For that matter, neither is the value of Jamal and Al. Thus, if Sund is going to do something “unusual”, I’d suggest Al gets the special treatment. Did Aldridge get an extension? I think so. Al Jefferson did. There have been plenty of bigs who are not quite of the “superstar” caliber who have received extensions prior to hiting RFA status. There is a level between a max extension and a healthy extension… Al falls in the latter (IMO). The next level down is no extension with the possibility of becoming an RFA (Rudy Gay). And then, there is Josh Smith… allowing him to sign an offer sheet.

Astro Joe

August 30th, 2010
7:35 pm

OB, I assume 13th since we haven’t heard that any other player has actually signed a deal yet (i.e. Etan Thomas). I wonder if the Hawks will go so far as to actually send Sy to the NBDL?

Big Ray

August 30th, 2010
8:04 pm

AJ ,

I’m not sure what’s going on with the media stuff, but I’ve noticed a trend there. What I’ll say is that issue is most likely NOT with the local media at all.

As for Jamal and contract extensions, dang right he gets in line behind Horford.

vava74

August 30th, 2010
8:08 pm

doc, ray,

I don’t understand that obsession about Jamal being a “finisher”.

We had major problems last year finishing games and apart from the game winner against PHO Jamal was not effective in the clutch both as a shooter and as a PG.

Yes, he was a finisher but not a good one.

I know you diced the clutch stats I presented the other day but if you read the fine print where these stats are explained you will easily conclude that Jamal WAS NOT EFFECTIVE IN THE CLUTCH AND NOT A GOOD FINISHER.

Actually Jamal’s best periods and most effective shifts were in the first half when he help break open a lot of games.

His second halves were – at least as I recollect them – far worse.

Our poor 4th quarter record should be enough for you guys to understand that you cannot value a guy because he was a “finisher” when:

a) he was a finisher under a bad 4th quarter head coach;
b) team stats in the 4th speak against him;
c) his own stats speak loudly against him.

Big Ray

August 30th, 2010
8:09 pm

I also like the quick breadown of levels of attention given to players, in regard to contract extensions. Memphis took Rudy Gay from the level of no extension at all to a well paid player, where many pundits and “experts” criticize the size of his contract.

The Hawks did let Josh Smith sign an offer sheet. But then, we have to remember that he was offered an extension by the previous front office puppet…er…regime, and not the current puppet…dang this keyboard…er…regime. ;)

Big Ray

August 30th, 2010
8:23 pm

Vava ,

I don’t understand that obsession about Jamal being a “finisher”.

Okay, I understand that you think Jamal was mostly useless as a clutch player, but if you read Doc’s 11:22 a.m. post, you would see that we are talking about an entirely different subject.

Doc’s argument is that though Jamal is called a backup player, he figured into the gameplan prominently, much like Josh Childress did when he was here. When Doc says “finisher”, he’s talking about a guy who is in the lineup as the game winds down. Most of the time, Jamal was in the lineup at the end of games (unless the score was well in hand), replacing either Marvin or Mike Bibby. So, he was a “finisher”. Nobody is saying he’s Mr. Clutch in this conversation, and your opinion to the contrary is duly noted, I promise you.

As for dicing your stats, there was nothing to dice. I know full well that Joe was the best clutch shooter on the team. I also know that outside of him and perhaps Mike Bibby, Jamal is the only other guy that most people would be okay with handing the ball to for a final shot (most likely an outside shot) at the end of a game, regardless of what 82games.com has to say. Although, Al Horford’s 18-footer is becoming nice, and if he gets to where he hits it as often as Tim Duncan hits that bank shot jumper of his, then that becomes a high quality shot attempt.

Big Ray

August 30th, 2010
8:37 pm

Vava ,

Here’s what I find funny. Rick Sund was quoted as saying that it was Jamal’s 4th quarter stats that convinced him to make the deal to acquire him. As for the man’s own stats speaking loudly against him…well:

a) he was a finisher under a bad 4th quarter head coach;
b) team stats in the 4th speak against him;
c) his own stats speak loudly against him.

I agree to an extent, but….

a) who won 53 games
b) are you going to blame TEAM STATS on this guy, or just individual stats?
c) His own stats include shooting the highest regular season field goal percentage of his career (with the exception of his 2nd year in the league), his best total 3 pt % (again, his second year was best), and winning Sixth Man of the Year.

Or are we only talking 4th quarter stats? Either way, we would not have won 53 games last year without him producing the way he did in the 31 mpg that he played. And that’s what Doc was talking about….

It doesn’t matter how “we guys” value him. What matters is how the Hawks front office and ownership values him.

drmaryb (*_*)

August 30th, 2010
8:46 pm

Not For Sale!

Blu-Ray
(Mega Pixels)

IF the Hawks/Thrasher/Phillip’s Arena Rights were illegally sold to the ASKG?
Then, why can’t the sale be reversed and offered to McDavid now, provided he can still afford to make said purchase. Or, form his own partner ship group now that he is not as strong financially as he was then.

Provided, he would even still be interested in the current market.
Based on what Golden State sold for, the valued price may be even less if appraised now.

I’m just wondering.

Big Ray

August 30th, 2010
8:59 pm

drmaryb ,

I wish I knew the answer to that question. You are probably better off asking Nire , as he might well know the implications and ramifications involved. Of course, I also don’t think he can reveal all that he knows…

Melvin ,

I’ll believe it when the AJC or David Aldridge reports it, LOL. But all I can say is “huh…wow…”, because I really didn’t see it happening. Could be interesting, no?

niremetal

August 30th, 2010
9:29 pm

Drmaryb,

Fortunately, the answer to your question is pretty boring ;) . Courts will not “undo” complicated transactions like that. The remedy for McDavid is collecting damages, not undoing the sale of the team to ASG. Trials arising out of a failed transaction take years to unfold and complete. If courts could go in after the fact and void mergers/acquisitions/sales years after they had been consummated, there would be too much chaos and uncertainty for everyone involved…

kwooden1

August 30th, 2010
9:33 pm

Right now I would rather have Sy than Thomas. I watched Thomas for several years with the Wizards and he’s a good player, but really a C/PF. He never appeared to be much taller than 6′9″ even if he’s actually 6′10″. I don’t see much difference between him and Powell. I like to see if Sy can take Mo’s job backing up Marvin. I like Mo’s work ethic and strength, but he’s stuck in the role of SF on this team and that just isn’t the best position for him. I wouldn’t mind a 2nd unit of:

Crawford
Evans
Sy
Powell
Zaza

But were does that leave Bibby and Teague?

Big Ray

August 30th, 2010
11:04 pm

See? I knew Niremetal would have the answer! :)

Kwooden1 ,

No difference between Powell and Thomas? LOL, I haven’t seen Powell enough to be able to say that, myself. But what I have seen is nothing like Etan Thomas. Powell is more like Leon Powe in a way. Meanwhile Thomas is more like….Brian Grant.

I’ll take another C/PF. As long as he gets the job done.

Big Ray

August 30th, 2010
11:05 pm

I agree with seeing if Sy can take Mo’s job as backup SF, but I don’t know that it will happen that way. He has the height (6′7″). May or may not have the strength, but he does seem to have the length.

Thomas

August 30th, 2010
11:38 pm

I say trade him, Marvin, Bibby, and Josh. Time to start over and stop over paying for BS play. I mean come on. By no means they should have never paid J.J all of that money he could have walked. He is not worth that much. No one on the Hawks team can take over a game by themselves! Then with the Coaching search they should have hired outside of the organization. Spend money on the coaching staff and go from there. How about going after a Center! An stop drafting all of these damn FORWARDS…. OMG the team has more needs else where you know.

niremetal

August 30th, 2010
11:45 pm

Oh…hello person from 2005.

vava74

August 31st, 2010
2:48 am

Ray:

“Or are we only talking 4th quarter stats? Either way, we would not have won 53 games last year without him producing the way he did in the 31 mpg that he played. And that’s what Doc was talking about…”

My take is that we would have won 53 games as well with Flip given the fact that we had an injury free year and Josh and Al evolved significantly.

Jamal’s 4th quarter stats may have justified Sund’s decision but he did not live to the expectation.

The fact is that the hawks last year were WORSE finishers than in the previous year when bibby still finished games with his clutch shooting.

Again, I’m not saying that Jamal was a disaster, but his presence on court to close tight matches was not positive since his clutch shooting was poor, his PG skills are pedestrian and he defends even worse than Bibby did in 08-09.

Jamal helped us being a better 1st to 3rd quarter team (leading to easy wins) but he was directly connected to our 4th quarter woes.

Plain and simple.

doc

August 31st, 2010
7:30 am

vava, “My take is that we would have won 53 games as well with Flip given the fact that we had an injury free year and Josh and Al evolved significantly.”

kidding right, not serious for sure. flip, had a terrible year last year and didnt come close ever to being the player crawford is. maybe crawford didnt win games att he end but he was responsible for some really interesting comebacks and had pleasant nights when jj wasnt doing jack sh!t. flip was special in his year here for the price we paid him. he has also proven to be a journeyman of the first degree.

i am not sure you can put the onus on one player for the fourth quarter blues, vava. jj had his hands on the ball most of those times didnt he? even MC had to agree iso-joe sucked as he did his analysis if you remember. it was a total team failure in the fourth quarter as the whole team faltered and flailed, changing everything they did in the first three quarters into the fourth. it was why i quit going in january, i was sick of it. also i think i remember jj stats deteriorated from the first half to the second half why not also point to that? how many times did he blow up in first quarter looking like it was his night to put up a huge 35 to 40 only to fall back and end up with his usual 25 on 23 shots. look your defamation of jamal on your conjecture is just that, conjecture with no real substance. i’ll take it as that. yes i know that jamal is a luxury and not one we can afford next year at this price so i am not arguing that or coming close, just calling it is for what it is.

“finishers” are a quality guy who plays when the game is on the line. it is overlooked by the casual fan but coaches look to it and it is often suggested as a quality for some non-starters by the media. it is what i look for at the beginning of the season on most teams to see the real players to lookf for in the clutch and watch expectantly when my team is playing them with some trepedation. horry was one, powe another in some instances, hated to see them come in late to play my team. these are guys unheralded and not appreciated by those that only look at the game from a fantasy game numbers perspective. for that reason, while i look to stats, i realize they fail to tell all of the story. i really think it is not an obsession and you know exactly what i mean, at least i hope so considering your expansive appreciation and knowledge of the game. if you want to play dumb or devil’s advocate so be it, it is what it is.

O'Brien

August 31st, 2010
7:46 am

vava,

Part of Jamal’s (and the team’s) fourth quarter issues are because of Woody. So under LD, it is possible that his clutch stats will improve (just like we are hoping Marvin’s numbers will improve under LD).

And I dont think Flip would have had the same effect. Jamal is a better passer and a better scorer than Flip.

As for Sy, nothing against the young fellow who was drafted 57th, but I know very little about him or his game, so I dont have much expectations for him. But LD likes him, and the Hawks could use all the help they can get, so I hope he earns PT.

However, I think it would have made more sense for the team to sign a guy like Rodney Carney (vet minimum) for 1 year, and give Sy another year to develop (whether that’s overseas, D-League, or even on the bench as the 15th guy).

But if Sy can beat out Mo, or just provide some perimeter defense, that would be awesome.

john

August 31st, 2010
8:01 am

The bottom line is that Al Horford has to get paid first so why not package Jamal and Josh Smith for Melo and J.R. Smith as Sekou stated on nba.com Sund needs to come off vacation and close the deal. Melo and his wife would love to return to Atlanta because this is where she lived before taking the job in NYC to work for MTV. I would also try to give them something else as bait to make Denver jump at this offer. Melo, Joe, and Al now thats a big 3 and we would compete with Miami instantly what do you think BIG RAY!!!!!!!!

Tha Real Hawk

August 31st, 2010
8:58 am

rusty

August 31st, 2010
10:34 am

how could anyone compare jc to flip. the reason we would fall apart in the 4 th quarter was because jj started hogging the play making the rest of the offense to come to a screaching halt. he is not the man i want to see with the ball with the game on the line. this is probably what caused all the team dissatifaction

vava74

August 31st, 2010
10:54 am

Jesus… I was not comparing JC to Flip as individual players.

I was saying that JC was overused and his production in the 4th quarter was sub-par and IMO one of the causes for our poor finishes.

Consequently, I also said that JC was not a real “finisher” in the way that doc has been saying he is in his posts.

He was a “finisher” because Woody made the mistake of playing him down the line when our offense was getting even less structured that it was already by default.

What I also said is that Jamal’s excessive minutes accelerated Bibby’s deterioration and Bibby’s absence at the end of games was ONE of the causes IMO that we had poor finishes.

I also stated that Jamal was crucial in many blow ups, mainly during the first half or the third quarter.

JJ was indeed a culprit himself of excessive ISO plays but his clutch stats prove that – ON AVERAGE – his performance in the last 5 minutes of the game with the score on the line WAS EXCELLENT. Just check http://www.82games.com again and compare with JC’s.

I also think that either by jealousy or by simple incompatibility JJ + Crawford was not a tandem to close games as good as was JJ + Bibby in 2008-09.

Bibby is known to be able to find the right spot to receive the pass out of the double team on JJ and he is still a decent pick ‘n roll PG.

Jamal is neither of that since he is much less cerebral in finding the right spot to receive the extra pass and is not a playmaker at all.

I like Jamal, he seems to be a stand up guy, but he is not suited to play 30+ games and in my opinion only in set cases should be called to play the last minutes of a tight match (mainly whenever there is the possibility of making substitutions in and out of TOs and FTs interruptions).

vava74

August 31st, 2010
10:58 am

vava74

August 31st, 2010
11:23 am

And while we are it, here are Flip’s clutch stats for 2008-09 (multiplied per 48 min):

ATL Murray Games37 Minutes78 (+-)29 (+-) +18 FGA 19.7 FG% .406 3ptA 5.5 3pt% .556 FTA 9.2 FT% .730 Points 25.8 Assisted 76% REB 4.3 ASS 2.5 TO 2.5 BLK 1.2 STL 3.7

And Jamal’s clutch stats with us in 2009-10:

ATL Crawford Games 36 Minutes143 (+-)45 (+-) +15 FGA 19.1 FG% .246 3ptA 8.4 3pt% .120 FTA 10.1 FT% 86% Points 19.1 Assisted 28% Reb 3.7 Ass 3.7 TO 1.7 Blks 0.0 Stls 1.7

Several striking facts:

FG% and 3pt% by Jamal were atrocious, with a 28% percentage of his points being assisted, which means that ISO Jamal was disastrous in the clutch.

Flip had excellent defensive stats in the clutch, with a lot of his blocks and steals coming during that period whilst Jamal had no blocks and fewer steals.

Flip had more turnovers but rebounded a bit better.

Jamal had more assists.

vava74

August 31st, 2010
11:28 am

Correction, SOME stats are per 48min.

And I honestly don’t know why there are two (+-) columns and frankly I don’t have the time to investigate it now.

vava74

August 31st, 2010
11:35 am

And don’t get me wrong, last Summer I was all over this blog pointing out Flip’s atrocious playoff stats and saying that we should not be worried at all about losing him when we got Jamal.

Now, in retrospect, I believe that our back court lost some toughness with Flip’s departure and if we can rely on the stats above (which seem to corroborate a naked eye analysis) we became must weaker defensively by replacing Flip with Jamal.

rusty

August 31st, 2010
12:02 pm

well i guess it was my eyes betraying me,because down the stretch of many games with atlanta holding a lead going to the 4th quarter,i would see jj starting to monopolize the ball & taking most of the shots with our lead going down the tubes

vava74

August 31st, 2010
12:13 pm

rusty,

that also happened, but read the stats.

it is customary that we tend to concentrate on the negative and become selective in the information we collect with our own eyes when we have a prejudice against something.

in this case, there is a prejudice common to many hawks fans built against JJ which, although it has a base justifying it, is waaaaaaaaaay exaggerated.

JJ’s clutch stats in 2009-10 were terrific.

the problem is that we had no plan B besides some ISO-Jamal opportunities (with the results shown on the stats) and some ISO-Al or ISO-Josh plays – these with pretty decent results (Al shooting .500 from the field and Josh .423 – which includes his bone head jump shots).

Interesting stats:

Josh was the 10th best rebounder in the clutch and Al the 14th best – even playing a switching D which kept them from being nearer of the basket (with 15,7 and 15,4 rebounds per 48 minutes of clutch).

Al had better blocking stats in the clutch than Josh, although only marginally (2,0 to 1,9 blocks per 48 minutes of clutch).

Here I think that the switching D had a huge negative impact.

vava74

August 31st, 2010
12:31 pm

You should also look at JJ’s turnover stats in the clutch.

I bet that you would swear that he lost many possessions in the clutch running against double and triple teams…

check again and compare with Carmelo, Lebron, Nash, Nowistki, Paul, Roy, Bryant…

he has lower TOs per 48 minutes than all those guys and in relation to some of them its a no contest.

Another funny fact and a testimony that our switching D was abused in the clutch?

Jamal Crawford, of all people, has the best steals average per 48 minutes in the clutch for the Hawks with 1,7…

doc

August 31st, 2010
1:37 pm

vava, you can quote all the stats for the two based on minutes, only flip is a premanant 22 mpg guy and jamal is a 35 mpg guy during their careers. that is where stats lead folks into mistaken arguments. flip has never been in a role to give the kind of minutes jamal had to last year because a certain point guard began to falter named bibby. i imagine flip is not the kind of guy who can give over time like jamal did last year. who could have played the extra 10 to 15 mpg last year that jamal did? flip played well in his role. jamal was superlative doing what he had to do which was to play starter minutes that flip has only done once in his career several years ago.

if i could post both player career summaries you could check it out but i get put into the hold category so here is one:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3407/career;_ylt=Anfs5jit96yTr8PKH5l3fyRzPKB4

check flip murray under payer for the other to compare.

they were different years with totally different needs and roles. my guess flip maybe breaks down in some way when asked to perform more and why he has never been called on to do it. i also felt woody had more confidence in jamal than he had in flip, again just my own suspicion. when there is so much data suggesting flip is not a 36 minute guy ever in his career such numbers you project mean absolutely nothing to the reality of what is and 12-14 mpg on avg in the nba is a huge difference. i loved what flip did, dont mistake my sentiments here and gave him a standing o when he came back in another uni.

Big Ray

August 31st, 2010
1:51 pm

John ,

I think taking on JR Smith is a mistake. He has all the talent in the world but can be as streaky as Jamal Crawford. He also has issues off the court (recent ones at that), which can be troublesome and distracting. I also think Carmelo would prefer to be in New York, but that’s nothing more than speculation on my part. Having said that, I respect Sekou Smith a great deal, and adding those two current Nugget players makes us VERY dangerous offensively.

On the defensive side of the ball? We’d be worse. For certain.

wordsmithtom

August 31st, 2010
1:52 pm

Ball Don’t Lie has an article saying they don’t blame Hawks or Jamal for this trade idea. They’d trade him for a point guard.
I think it’s best to wait till after camp to see what shakes out. See who really wants to play and who may have pieces elsewhere before making a decision. He won’t hold out…too much at stake…and we lose nothing by waiting, probably gain more. A lot of decisions to make by end of camp. No sense being rash.

like Jamal; it’s just business. He doesn’t have the chops for defence; we need defence…and we need more point help. It’s just business.

Big Ray

August 31st, 2010
1:55 pm

http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-hawks/crawford-named-sixth-man-498405.html

Crawford led the team in scoring 27 times this season and proved a high-caliber finisher.

“Without him, a lot of games, we probably wouldn’t have won,” guard Joe Johnson said. “I’m very thankful for him.”

Yep sounds like jealousy, incompatibility, and a none too great finisher to me. And since we could have done as well with Flip Murray, how come we didn’t ? And why didn’t HE win SMOY? I’m confused…. :twisted:

Stirrin’ the pot…stirrin’ the pot…

Big Ray

August 31st, 2010
1:56 pm

wordsmithtom ,

I agree that no hurried moves need be made (unless a nice deal comes along).

Big Ray

August 31st, 2010
1:58 pm

O’brien ,

Sy struggled at times against the better summer league competitors. And sometimes he did okay against them. He is not used to the NBA game, but he appears to have all the necessary physical tools and a level of aggression to go with them. Translation: he’ll get Mario West minutes while working hard in practice every day. That’s my guess, anyhow. Assuming he’s coming over, which has not been officially announced, so I’m holding my breath on that one.

Melvin

August 31st, 2010
2:22 pm

I think that the per 48 min stat is the most useless and misleading stat there is. What’s the purpose of projecting a player production over 48 mins when most players do not play the entire game (48 mins)?

Astro Joe

August 31st, 2010
2:30 pm

Ray, Jamal is clearly better than Flip. But I would still take a $1.5M sniper off the bench over a $10M sniper off the bench, because (in a perfect world) I’m getting better value out of the remaining $8.5M from other positions. I don’t too much care what the player’s name is, on a team with a middling payroll, spending $10M on a bench sniper just doesn’t seem prudent especially a one-dimensional player.

Would I have taken 6 less wins last year (with the same playoff outcome) and $10M in cap relief this summer?

Melvin

August 31st, 2010
3:24 pm

Melvin

August 31st, 2010
3:26 pm

*Why rush to re-sign Horford?

Astro Joe

August 31st, 2010
4:24 pm

Melvin, I’m not sure that the Hawks get the same benefit as other teams. It seems to me that Duncan and Kobe were probably far happier with their teams (and prospects for multiple titles) when they were faced with a comparable contract situation. I could be wrong about Kobe… I don’t recall if he won a title while still on his rookie deal or not. All I know is that we were the only team to lose an American born lottery pick to a European team during the RFA period. Am I really supposed to assume that the standard for other successful franchises (like the Lakers and Spurs) is the standard for the Hawks?

Melvin

August 31st, 2010
4:46 pm

Astro,

But the fact remains that the Horford will be a RFA so the Hawks will have the last right of refusal…..

vava74

August 31st, 2010
7:41 pm

Melvin,

the clutch stats I posted are not pure “per 48min” stats like for instance the ones you will see on http://www.nba.com and which useless since a guy who plays 5 minutes of garbage time and averages 3ppg would project as a 28,8 points per 48 minutes player.

These stats are the average stats amassed by players during the last 5 minutes of the game and/or overtime WHEN the result is closer than 6 points (5 or less) which means when the game is on the line. – please read the header explaining this at http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT12.HTM

Then, some of the average stats are multiplied per 48 minutes so you can better compare players who had more minutes in the clutch with players which had less minutes.

Ray,

I was not stating that JJ and Jamal did not gel due to jealousy, I mentioned that as a “possibility” along with Jamal’s poor perception on where to be to get the pass out of the double and triple teams.

Personally I don’t think (and never did) that JJ was jealous of Jamal. I simply mentioned that since many do think that.

On the 6th man award: the award is an individual prize and is only collaterally connected with team success.

Difference between 47 — 53 wins (08/09 – 09/10)

Must I mention again that last year we were virtually injury free and that during 2008-09 we lost JJ, Al, Josh and Marvin for significant stretches?????

AND you have the nerve to quote journalists to confirm that he was a good finisher?????? As we all did not know that most journalists merely repeat nonsense after nonsense?

I will post this again and I will continue to do it until you block my IP: http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT12.HTM

JAMAL WAS NOT A GOOD FINISHER LAST SEASON

JAMAL EXCELLED MOSTLY DURING THE MID PART OF THE GAMES (and was CRUCIAL IN MANY OCCASIONS AND ONE OF OUR MAIN IGNITORS).

I am not taking anything from him, I am simply battling a miss conception.

The PHO’s game winner trey was AN EXCEPTION.

doc

August 31st, 2010
8:50 pm

Ray I had one that didn’t make it then was told I was posting a duplicate
Unfortunately by this software can’t cut and paste without losing it

doc

August 31st, 2010
8:54 pm

Melvin especially when jc1 has avg mid thirties in his career and flip low twenties. Guess there is a reason? Jc1 took up the slack when Bobby fell off the ability to play extended minutes curve. Flip would not have been able to do this based on his history and jt0 would have been exposed trying to make up the difference.

drmaryb (*_*)

August 31st, 2010
10:55 pm

Jamal will get an extension. You already know what ure gonna’ get.

Al will have to play for pay. He will be signed under the new CBA after signing a contract that the Hawks will match! If, he is an All-Star again?

The price will be steep, but for only three years term. ASkG should wait and see about Horford’s money.

ugg

August 31st, 2010
11:00 pm

Hi, admin, I like your blog,chi flat irons but how can I subscribe to the blog itself?

Big Ray

September 1st, 2010
12:42 am

Astro Joe ,

True, but as you say – “In a perfect world.” $10 million in cap relief means what around here? More room to upgrade the team? More room away from luxury tax? What?

Big Ray

September 1st, 2010
1:13 am

Melvin ,

I think Kelly’s point is what it usually is: another opportunity to bash the Hawks (both the team and the front office). Trust me, if anything goes sideways with Al Horford and his contract situation, this guy will be first in line to bash us again. He didn’t say anything we didn’t already know…Hawks could make Horford an offer, or they could let the market do it. Gee whiz, what a concept…

Having said that, the Hawks may have painted themselves into a rough spot when they paid JJ the way they did. Who knows how things will go with Al. The point has nothing to do with whether he is a malcontented type or not. He is a businessman.

Big Ray

September 1st, 2010
1:33 am

Doc and Vava ,

Posts rescued from the blog monster…

drmaryb (*_*)

September 1st, 2010
2:21 am

The Closer!

Kobe is the Closer.
I have never heardf of the term, The Finisher used in Basketball?
I reckon a finisher is the opposite of a starter?

vava74

September 1st, 2010
3:23 am

thanks Ray.

My crusade against Jamal’s “finisher” label continues!

O'Brien

September 1st, 2010
7:19 am

Big Ray,

Do I have a post in the blog monster? I tried to post one talking about 3 teams being rebuffed by Rick when he was approached with trade offers for Jamal (BEFORE his pay me or trade me).

As for Al, what is the max the team can offer him right now? 5 years, $82 mil?

Rick has his work cut out for him again. Josh got 5 years, $60 mil, 2 years ago, and last year Rick offered JJ a 4 years, $60 mil extension.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I’m thinking they will offer Al an extension in the 5 years, $65 mil range.

Astro Joe

September 1st, 2010
9:18 am

OB, your proposal for Al sounds about right to me. If Smith received ~$58M after some headache issues (which have since been mostly resolved), then Horford’s resume suggests at least a $10M premium. Somewhere between $65M-$70M seems to make sense to me.

Melvin, Dwyer’s argument could seemingly be made for every player at this point in their contract. But I disagree. i think there are a few players who fall below the “max” distinction who still should not hit RFA because they are undoubtedly a cornerstone of the franchise.

If the Hawks opt not to offer an extension, I sincerely hope that Sund sits down with Al and has an old fashioned man-to-man talk. Don’t let any misperceptions exist and don;t let the agents convey the sentiments from the team. Treat him like an adult, like someone who understands the business side of the industry. Heck, treat him like he is truly the team’s leader and deserves a little more dialgoue with the front office than employee #10. There is a way to annoint Horford as the “chosen one” during this off-season without extending his contract. But it all starts with a face-to-face chat.

Melvin

September 1st, 2010
11:17 am

Vava,

I understand the clutch stat however, whenever you mutliply a player production over 48 mins it becomes a misleading stat b/c it moves the data away from the true facts. Simply b/c players do not play for 48 mins per game. Hence, your reference to why the 48 min multiplier is used. Those stats make for interesting reading but they are useless… I think my B.S. in Mathematics has taught me a thing or two in statistics…

O'Brien

September 1st, 2010
11:57 am

Melvin, Vava,

Since the ASG’s actions (or lack of) have implied that most of the problems last season were due to Woody (directly and indirectly), how much emphasis should we put on the players statistics that were achieved under Woody?

I think there is some grey area there, and given a new coach, and a new offense, it will be different to see the change in the nimbers.

AJ,

Rick’s policy is he usually waits until the player’s contract is up. And given the possibility of a more owner friendly CBA (and a possible lockout) on the horizon, he might not offer an extension at all.

If he doesn’t offer the extension, I would hope his actions would be along the lines of your 9:18 post.

doc

September 1st, 2010
12:48 pm

Yes dr m b a finisher is the guy you want on the floor at the end of games. It is different from starter and not related to clutch or closer. Often guys start but don’t finish. I think the money is on the finisher and is ignored as to their importance to a team. Bobby wasn’t a finisher last year a lot of the time, Jamal was as he continued to play starter minutes though coming off the bench. Ginobli finishes doesn’t start and plays big minutes when healthy. I want him giving me a chance to win not necessarily to take the last shot.

I think cava is wanting to make this a different discussion. It is about who you want on the floor at the end of a game, a finisher.

vava74

September 1st, 2010
1:05 pm

doc,

Jamal is a scorer/shooter who shot badly in the clutch

He is a bad defensed and a subpar playmaker.

Why the hell would you want to have him as a finisher?

The only really good stat he brought last year in the clutch was his FT%.

vava74

September 1st, 2010
1:09 pm

doc

September 1st, 2010
1:54 pm

yes vava, he drove the ball and got into the lane and got foul shots, which he made. jj cant do that and it is needed in the late parts of games. maybe he should have had that responsibility more often. who else do you want in there vava, bibby or marvin, who both had terrible years offensively and defensively? who did they stop all year? it seems this is more of a personal thing vava. you dont like him, so be it. you wont find value in the guy no matter how many rational efforts are made to you.

he was the sixth man of the year because of his role last year as part of the team that got 53 wins. are you going to argue that and say all the voters are idiots and you are the smartest basketball guy in the world because you disagree with them? i guess in my mind he had to be a finisher. he was not the guy choking the ball as game clocks ticked down when woody went to his prevent offense much like woody hayes went to his three yards and a cloud of dust or smith went to his four corners offense. there lies the problem which we get to see if it is fixed with LD in command.

look, i am not arguing this is the guy we need to sign for a long term huge contract only giving him his due nor do i say let us hitch our wagon to long term, as they say. much as we would have sunk without flip we would have faltered tremendously without jamal there to pull it out on many occasions. flip couldnt have played those minutes as he never has in his career certainly not in his thirties. bibby hadnt gone to the trash heap yet while flip was here is my argument against your silly 48 minute meaningless stats. teague couldnt have competently made up the difference is my guess. jamal was the only guy who could go deep and drive to the basket to get fouls, again maybe that should have been done more often and his talents were wasted as the clock ran down in games. woody’s game also got us 53 wins, so it aint bad either. look vava, i get it, you dont like jamal’s game. that is fine and i accept that. history is history and the guy won the 6th moy. if that isnt a finisher when a guy is on the court while winning it as the clock ticks down then i will stand wrong.

wordsmithtom

September 1st, 2010
2:08 pm

Jamal was a finisher for Woody because Woody liked shooters….witness ISO hell. That was then; this is now. If you just look at FT%, Marvin had a better % than Jamal, yet he sat on the bench. With his bulk, FT%, and defence, I’d venture to say MW SHOULD have been a finisher more often than he was.
Again, new coach, new philosophy of ball and player movement. I expect a lot of change this year, but the biggest is the way the offence is run.

Melvin

September 1st, 2010
2:18 pm

“Jamal was a finisher for Woody because Woody liked shooters..”

Wordsmithtom,

Was Josh Childress a shooter b/c I recall him finishing more games than Marvin. I agree with Woody on that perspective, having JChill or Jamal finishing the games over Marvin…

Melvin

September 1st, 2010
2:20 pm

Speaking of JChill, if the Hawks trade Jamal then I would have preferred to re-sign Chills. However, that is hindsight (or having a plan)…

wordsmithtom

September 1st, 2010
3:03 pm

JChill is a different kind of player than Jamal. Chill could create his own shot, play defence, as well as weok down low. Jamal is one dimentional, ala Villie Johnson. If he’s hot: great. If not, not so. Way too often he stayed in when he was “not so”, to the detriment of morale IMHO.

Marvin finished very well when JJ wasn’t there. Some say he’s soft. Ask Ford if he’s soft; ask Rondo if he’s soft. He looks awkward, but he’s far from soft. And he shoots 90% from the free throw line. That’s the kind of player you want at ends of games; guys who can hit that +1.

Melvin

September 1st, 2010
3:37 pm

wordsmithtom,

It was Horford who laid the smack down on Ford. I can’t remember any incident with Rondo….

wordsmithtom

September 1st, 2010
3:43 pm

Williams got a flagrant T for whacking Rondo during the 1’st Boston playoff.

Seriously, if you’re trying to catch up; sure…use your shooters. If you’re protecting a lead, have people who can body up, who can shoot FT’s, who can defend. Way too often, what worked in Q3, was extended into Q4 where it DID NOT WORK.

Tell me you want Jamal with a body on anyone instead of Marvin bodying him. Marvin’s just as large as Horf. Get close to him, you’ll see how large he is.

doc

September 1st, 2010
4:11 pm

word what about ford and marvin? if you are talking about a collision with a hawk it was with horford in horford’s rook year on a supreme effort to get back and not a cheap shot out of frustration. i would rather you be asking me to ask lebron about how tough marvin is as they are the same size. look i would possibly put a hurt on ford or rondo if they are in the air and i run into them. i assure you lebron wouldnt blink. let marvin hurt someone his size then we can talk about how tough he is. too funny.

northcyde

September 1st, 2010
4:14 pm

Vava . . . you can present concrete evidence to people, and they still won’t believe it. Jamal last year did exactly what you said. When the game was tight, he didn’t perform well AT ALL. ( minus the memorable Phoenix game ).

What Jamal did well last year, was blow games open in the middle part of halves. All people have to do, is go back and re-watch some of those games last year. In fact, I wish that people would record more Hawk games, so that they can go back and re-watch them from time to time.

That was Jamal’s main contribution to this team. He helped extend leads. What he didn’t do well, was finish off games ( on either end of the floor ).

Guys like Rusty will criticize Joe Johnson, regardless of what kind of game he’s having. I distinctly remember a late regular season game @ Milwaukee, in which JJ was KILLING the Bucks in the 4th quarter. He scored on something like 5 consecutive possessions at one point. The problem, was that the Hawks couldn’t stop the Bucks on the other end.

So when JJ did finally miss a shot or two near the end of the game, Rusty, and guys who are aganst ISO JJ, blamed JJ for the loss, instead of our inability to get stops on the other end. Forget the fact that he was something like 7 – 9 FG for the quarter, the “ball hog” label was still placed on JJ, as well as blame for the loss.

Jamal, to me, serves the same purpose as J.R. Smith does for Denver. They are high scoring, high shot volume sparkplugs who can take over the game. But you MUST get them out of the game, if they are ineffective ( even during a short stretch ).

But honestly, with as poorly as Marvin and Bibby started playing in the 2nd half of the season, along with Mo Evans, Woody had little choice but to play Jamal at the end of close games.

Ideally, a guy like Jamal on a team like ours, should only be logging 24 – 36 min per game . . . not 30 – 32 min per game.

O'Brien

September 1st, 2010
4:21 pm

wordsmithtom,

Marvin had a flagrant foul on Rondo the last game of the season, and was suspended for the season opener. However, that play did not change my mind about Marvin being soft.

Melvin,

I dont blame Rick for not resigning Chills, given his price tag. However, I would have gone after Matt Barnes to be my backup SF.

I would have traded Jamal for bench depth (either front court, PG, or a combination of both). And I would have let Mo and Jordan handle the backup SG spot.

With a legit backup SF, we wouldnt need JJ to play SF, so he could play 35 minutes at SG. Mo and Jordan can handle the other 13 minutes.

But I dont know what Rick’s options were.

Melvin

September 1st, 2010
4:55 pm

wordsmithtom,
forgot about the Marvin flagrant foul on Rondo play…

Doc,
too funny. i was thinking the same thing. lets see him do that to a guy his size…

OB,
Agreed with your post. Although I would like to dump Mo and his salary.

#5,329,674fan

September 1st, 2010
5:51 pm

hawks need to pay crawford, makes the roster look more city friendly when Sund takes them to Seattle so all the Washington boyz can play for a more appreciative fanbase

doc

September 1st, 2010
6:04 pm

northcyde, you just repeated my argument just about exactly. not sure about the comment on his efficiency as his numbers of shots to get points were often less than jj as he got to the lane more to draw fouls upping his points per field goal taken. if jamal were not here we would have sunk like the titanic. he played starter minutes because no one else was there to pick up the slack, including marvin at 8 mil, hugely unreliable with the ball in his hands close to or away from the basket. no one on that team played well in the fourth quarter including the coach coming down the home stretch of the season.

as far as the “clutch numbers” quoted by vava and accepted as truth by you, when vince carter is top ten, i begin to think the source might be tainted. duncan, pierce, d williams and garnett rank way down the list as well and not that far above crawford, now, what does all that mean? nash terrible on defense ranks high, nowitsky with the tag of a choke artist is third. again what does it mean?

may i ask, what is wrong with a guy who comes off the bench to either rally you when you are down or extend the lead if you have one and a guy like jj sits down? you talk like that is a piece of trash rather than a very good piece of insurance. also iso joe is not a derogatory remark against jj but more a reflection of the lack of offense the hawks had in the fourth quarter. again, it was a strategy by woody to manage the clock and slow possessions as well as decrease turnovers as the ball is not moving, why some football coaches prefer the run in tight situations as there are fewer potential mistakes. sadly, it took the hawks away from what they seemed to do best. stops were also a legitimate problem for the team as they did it well early in the season but couldnt do it later. at the beginning of the season their win margins were huge only to crumble towards the end losing leads rather than extending them. all that cant be hung on jamal, sorry the arrow is mis-aimed there.

i doubt we win 53 without jamal and instead have flip, again a guy who has only once in his career been asked to play that many minutes per game. it is where this discussion started, i think. after crawford’s second year he has only been below what he played with us last year and last year, numbers wise for minutes played, was one of his lowest but a very highly productive 31 mpg.

doc

September 1st, 2010
6:15 pm

correction for clarity …after crawford’s second year he has only been below what he played with us last year “once” and last year, numbers wise for minutes played, was one of his lowest but a very highly productive 31 mpg.

vava74

September 1st, 2010
7:06 pm

doc,

I like Jamal’s game, however, I don’t get blinded by his shot against PHO.

northcyde – with whom I seldom agree – was spot on @northcyde 4:14 pm.

Jamal broke open games and extended leads. He was terrific at that. But down the line? Nope.

As for the stats being tainted? Come on… is that your argument? Stats do not match your PERCEPTION than stats must be wrong?

I would also like you to check Marvin’s stats in the clutch (same page) and you will see that he had good shot % to go along with the fact that he is a bigger body and much better defensively than Marvin.

Actually, I distinctively remember us being able to hold on to leads in several games with Marvin on the court and then collapsing when Woody got Jamal in again.

These stats are not gospel but tell a lot. I know that it is surprising to see Carter and Nowitski high on that list but Nowitski has greatly improved his clutch performance recently and Carter was working in a very favorable environment which took him a lot of pressure (people clogged the middle to stop Howard, Nelson broke defenses open with his combination of speed and outside shot and Carter had a lot of space to maneuver.

As for Garnett not being there? Garnett has been a notorious choker in the clutch. It’s well documented, even in the years in which his legs were good. Last year he simply was not playing at his normal level so it is pretty normal to see him low.

As for Nash, the stats are sorted using the offensive stats, so I don’t see why he would not be high.

vava74

September 1st, 2010
7:13 pm

Again on Carter:

I went to compare Carter’s clutch stats in 08-09 and 09-10:

He improved significantly from 08-09 to 09-10 in points per 48 minutes of clutch (he leapfrogged JJ).

However, that was obtained with much lower FG% and 3pt% BUT WITH A LOT MORE FTA: +10 from one year to another.

Simple explanation: Carter’s game was whistled differently since he joined ORL and he started getting a lot of ref protection.

Big Ray

September 1st, 2010
7:17 pm

Funny thing about “facts.”

I don’t see people arguing about the actual facts. I see people trying to use the facts to support an assertion.

Facts:

1. Stats show Jamal Crawford did not have a high “clutch shootinger” percentage.

2. Jamal was in at the end of a lot of games, moreso than at least one starter (Marvin Williams) and probably moreso than a second starter (Mike Bibby).

3. Rick Sund was quoted as saying that one of the things that sold him on the acquisition of Jamal Crawford was his 4th quarter stats.

4. Anything below 50% is less than half of a whole.

5. Finisher is not the same word as closer or clutch shooter. Look them up in the dictionary.

Now that we’ve established a few facts (and I’m sure that somebody will want proof on the Rick Sund quote, but you can look it up for yourself), here are my predictions of how those facts will be used:

1. Somebody will say that there is more value in what Flip Murray than there is in Jamal Crawford. Whoops, somebody already said that.

2. Somebody will say that Jamal is not a good game finisher or clutch shooter. Wait, somebody already said that, too.

3. Somebody will say that people will ignore facts no matter how much you present them. Darn it…I could have sworn I’ve heard that one before.

4. Somebody will use this as an indictment of Woody (playing Crawford during the clutch moments of games….what, nobody on his staff kept track of Crawford’s awful clutch stats throughout the season?). What? Indict Woody? Inconceivable!

5) Someone will use this to indict Sund. Get in line.

6) This will be connected to the ASG, which will result in numerous modifications to the acronymical title. Yep, I can see that happening somewhere in the future. What, there are already 12, 384 versions?

Man, I suck at making predictions. ;)

Big Ray

September 1st, 2010
7:51 pm

Vava ,

I think the stats are pretty interesting…in doses. Like you said, they aren’t gospel. A guy can be as clutch as they come, but what about his team as a whole? Let’s say a guy has a high shooting percentage in clutch situations, but his team only wins 30 games in a season. Those clutch stats are great for fantasy leagues and for perhaps that individual player’s contract negotiations.

I’m not up in arms about Jamal and what he does at the end of games. There is no reason to be, because what this TEAM has been able to do in the clutch has been the problem. If the whole team is subpar in the clutch, I see little point in needling a single player for it. I know the original post article stated that he “will make and take shots at the end of games”, but that’s one proposed side of a two-sided argument, not my own personal opinion. I say value the guy for what he brings you.

Northcyde ,

Yes, Jamal did exactly as you say. So there must be some value in a player who gives and extends the lead for a team that does not finish close games out very well as a whole, no? The question is, HOW MUCH VALUE? The question stands. Pay him, trade him, or play him his final season without doing either? What say you…

Also, I noticed you say he should be logging 24-36 mpg, rather than 30-32 mpg. Did you mean 24-26 mpg? Because 30-32 is within the range of 24-36, so I’m missing your point a bit.

Big Ray

September 1st, 2010
7:52 pm

O’brien ,

Looked for your post that you said the blog monster might be munching on. Couldn’t find it, sorry…

Big Ray

September 1st, 2010
7:54 pm

Vava ,

Those stats on Carter, as you presented them, would suggest that there is quite a difference in the foul calls you get on a very bad team, versus the ones you get on a very good team. Heh…but we know no such concept exists, though, right? LOL.

doc

September 1st, 2010
8:52 pm

vava …”Simple explanation: Carter’s game was whistled differently since he joined ORL and he started getting a lot of ref protection.”

rofl csl rofl rofl csl

yes very simple vava … too simple. one can say anything they want with stats. if it is that simple, it proves how worthless the stats are. the boston c’s were at the midrange to bottom for your clutch stuff but they go to the finals and lose in the seventh game because they didnt have their center on the bench with a blown out acl. yeah, i am all over those stats vava, all over them. carter didnt deliver again and his team didnt go anywhere beyond a full team thrashing of the hawks. problem with the stats on many of these is they are probably not a complete appropriate sampling size to compare among other errors to put much relevance/credence to them. anyway i hope we have as good an extender as jamal was this year if he wasnt a good finisher. i think we might need it.

ray yes, i agree and said it as well, it was team effort, not due to one guy. to single him out is unnecessary. would jamal’s stats be better if the ball had been in his hands more to draw fouls? ummm maybe.

Big Ray

September 1st, 2010
9:23 pm

Doc ,

Could be. He did seem better at drawing fouls than most others. And he hit those foul shots. Is there a stat for clutch free throws? :)

doc

September 1st, 2010
9:29 pm

vava … “northcyde – with whom I seldom agree – was spot on @northcyde 4:14 pm.”

since he agreed with you, well, i can say without a stat book on it, when someone agrees with you, you can agree right back 100% of the time. another funny for my evening.

but wait, didnt northcyde also say … “But honestly, with as poorly as Marvin and Bibby started playing in the 2nd half of the season, along with Mo Evans, Woody had little choice but to play Jamal at the end of close games.”

hmm didnt i also say something like that before him? so you were agreeing with me, too? thanks! ;-)

so let me repeat ….

“yes vava, he drove the ball and got into the lane and got foul shots, which he made. jj cant do that and it is needed in the late parts of games. maybe he should have had that responsibility more often. who else do you want in there vava, bibby or marvin, who both had terrible years offensively and defensively? who did they stop all year? it seems this is more of a personal thing vava. you dont like him, so be it. you wont find value in the guy no matter how many rational efforts are made to you.

doc

September 1st, 2010
9:43 pm

vava the lakers have no clutch players either, gasol at 19 and fisher and artest below him and none others except kobe up at the top. all c’s below 24. battier down at the vey bottom? what does this really mean when the best teams in the nba are so poorly represented in this gospel you try to sell me vava, do you have another simple answer? or is it seriously flawed?

Melvin

September 1st, 2010
11:46 pm

doc,

There’s probably a stat for every aspect of the game. Some are useful and some probably not. I’m willing to bet that not many head coaches spent a lot of time analyzing individual player stats because most are not useful when it comes to team success or failures.

doc

September 2nd, 2010
12:13 am

yeah melvin, odd isnt it that a stat for clutch doesnt contain more than one player from the top two teams in the league in the top half. seems if it were meaningful then maybe more would be on there or it is a very over rated stator even worthless stat as given here. guess they dont have any finishers on any of those teams, eh? maybe we can say crawford is a close gap or extender guy if he isnt a finisher. we certainly know he isnt a clutch player or a closer.

also, i wouldnt want a smart guy like shane battier on my team now that i know his clutch stats are so low. i dont think he would qualify to even play in the second half, right? kind of absurd, isnt it, that a heady, smart, intense, well rounded and excellent defending ballplayer isnt among the top half?

vava74

September 2nd, 2010
2:46 am

doc,

FIRST, better teams have fewer players in the ppg48 of these clutch stats because:

a) they have a dominant clutch player who absorbs most points in the clutch (Lakers, Cleveland, …); and or
b) have many players who contribute in the clutch so the ppg48min stat does not show them (Boston, Lakers as well, …)

SECOND, please look at the stats again AND mainly into what I focused on my criticism of Jamal as a “finisher”:

I did not focus on points per 48 minutes of clutch time. There Jamal, due to his FTs his still rated pretty high and as you say (I did not deny it) makes him still decently useful.

I focused on FG% and 3pt% to illustrate that Jamal’s reputation as a guy who makes big shots in the clutch is TAINTED BY FACTS which in this case are last years’ stats.

That, complemented with the FACT that he is a poor defender makes it, IMO, a poor finisher.

THIRD,

Marvin’s lack of play and involvement in a offense which was mostly ISOs after ISOs (being that he is not a good ISO player) hinder any analysis of what he could contribute in the clutch offensively.

HOWEVER, defensively, he always contributed when called to play the last minutes.

FOURTH, given the fact that Jamal is, as a player, a “free spirit”, Drew’s organized offense will probably be a lot less suited for his game style.

Allegedly there will be a lot less monopolized ball possession and Jamal has always been more effective as an ISO player than inserted within set plays (my impression is that as a spot shooter his percentages are lower than when he shoots off a long dribble sequence).

Ray,

Stop being so “Astro”. I already said DOZENS of times that I like Jamal and that he was very important to blow games open.

However, I said that the way he was over used, in particular to close games, was IMO detrimental to the team effectiveness and erased in many occasions his positive influence (gained earlier in the game).

For me, there is no question that a player who is such a poor defender, a mediocre playmaker and which was shooting poorly in the clutch throughout the year, as stats prove, should have been used differently.

I directly challenged a sentence in your Blog which is IMO blatantly wrong:

Jamal’s value for this team does not come from the fact that he is a good “finisher” (which he is not).

Jamal’s value for this team is as spark plug off the bench for 20/25 minutes per game and that is not worth more than 5/6 million per.

I don’t give a sh!t that he won SMOY: he won it because Woody overused it AND it is conceivable that if Woody had limited his minutes and his PPG averaged had been 3 points less (lets say 15ppg) but we had won 6 or 7 games more, that he would have gotten the award anyhow.

Hence, I also said that it is conceivable that 53 win mark could have been reached with Flip and I justified this extrapolation with a couple of arguments:

1.His clutch shooting in 08-09 was MUCH MUCH better than Jamal’s in 09-10 (just an example: .500 from 3 point land against .120);
2. He is/was a much better defender (as the clutch stats for steals and blocks seem to corroborate beyond any doubt).

vava74

September 2nd, 2010
6:20 am

doc,

don’t be an a**.

Battier is a good defensive player, hence he is clearly a finisher regardless of his ppg per 48 in the clutch.

When he is on court to finish a game, he is not there to score and he is not asked to shoot (hence his 6,7 FGA per 48 minutes of clutch which make his low shooting percentages in the clutch irrelevant).

On the contrary:

Jamal is a very very poor defensive player, which means that his presence in the closing moments of a game, in the clutch, as a finisher, can only be justified if he can bring offense.

Shooting .246 from the field and .120 from 3 point land DOES NOT QUALIFY.

vava74

September 2nd, 2010
7:17 am

doc,

When a team has an extremely dominant clutch player like Lebron and Bryant, the rest of the team mates will obviously appear on the points per 48 minutes of clutch stat very low.

The same is also applicable when a starting 5 has more than 1 option for the clutch shots like BOS and even the Lakers which makes the 2nd, 3rd and 4th players of a given team on the points per 48 minutes of clutch low since the points are distributed amongst them.

I am under the impression that you simply can’t read and interpret stats or you are unwilling to do so.

I repeatedly said that stats are not gospel however given the fact that Jamal is a poor defensive player his offensive stats had to be good to justify the “finisher” status.

Never, in my posts there was any claim that I did not like Jamal or that I consider him a bad player.

He is – and you can’t deny it – a “one trick pony” which did not perform well in the clutch, leading to my conclusion that he should have been used more sparingly and significantly less to close games.

Also:

The stats on that page appear sorted by Points per 48 minutes of Clutch.

However, if you click on a different column, they will be sorted by that particular stat.

For instance: Assist per 48 minutes of clutch: you get Nash at the top, followed by Deron and Wade.

So, there is a lot more to analyze than just merely the page as it loads by “default”.

O'Brien

September 2nd, 2010
7:22 am

Didn’t VC miss some crucial FTs down the stretch of a playoff game in Orlando?

The only reason Jamal should be in a game at the end is for offensive purposes.

Given LD’s emphasis on defense, it will be interesting to see if he goes with Marvin at the end of games instead of Jamal (assuming Jamal is still here).

The Department of free insults

September 2nd, 2010
8:30 am

I am under the impression that you simply can’t read and interpret stats or you are unwilling to do so.

It is always funny when disagreeing turns into insulting. Says so much more about the person offering the insult, than the person it was aimed at. Cannot win an argument? Just turn to insulting a person intelligence.

doc

September 2nd, 2010
8:47 am

vava, “When a team has an extremely dominant clutch player like Lebron and Bryant, the rest of the team mates will obviously appear on the points per 48 minutes of clutch stat very low.”

exactly, and who had the ball in his hands and was so dominant on the hawks? wasnt it jj and makes your argument based on this particular skewed statistical evaluation severely flawed, worthless and senseless when trying to use it to devalue jamal? thank you for clearing it up in your own words for everyone and yourself and hope you are honest enough to se it and state it yourself. either it is so narrow focused, again based on sample size error, or or teams spread it around like the celts do and no one is dominant again sampling error issue. i would never consider paul pierce to not be a clutch player. i cant stand the guy but recognize he has the heart of a lion and has driven the stake home way to many times to not be considered high on any list.

one other category no one has brought up and another i consider special in jamal. jamal’s ability to make four pointers where he has the nba record suggests a special quality and one more reason i would put jamal on the court at the end of games. again i will echo northcyde and repeat myself, who did you want on the court last year at the end, marvin, mo, teague, bibby or jamal? four pointers arent clutch either? the guy is a triple threat on offense to drive, score deep at the three point line or make free throws as well as almost anyone. i’ll take that.

face it woody had confidence in one guy and one guy only and it was jj who dominated the ball and by this design makes your assessment flawed by your own evaluation of other teams. how can you say that jamal fell short in this category when it wasnt his time to shine by design? how can you ignore how dominant jj was with the ball in crunch time then try to use this invalid stat to assign such a low impression on jamal based on it when he was in an offense that had a dominant player by design. arent you manipulating it the way you want it? it is either one way or the other? look, say it is your opinion and that is fine, we can argue from there or not but please dont try to use these stats, again so very flawed by your own admission to make your argument. though no statistician i know how stats are used AND misused vava, part of the training i had. you can pack that shot in and yake it home with you as you blatantly misuse this drek.

so your statement:

He is – and you can’t deny it – a “one trick pony” which did not perform well in the clutch, leading to my conclusion that he should have been used more sparingly and significantly less to close games.

is an impression of yours and opinion and is not based on any facts you have presented. fine, it is your opinion and one you may get others to agree but please dont use smoke and mirrors statistics as gospel when you turn around and give the perfect argument yourself why it is invalid, to make your point, no? again, i will take him as others have and given him credit for as being a very important cog last year winning the smoy award for his talents and efforts and was a guy who stepped up to fill a very huge void left as marvin and bibby tanked during the year. call him an “extender” if you will and not finisher but again who did you want out there instead at the end of games? oh, please dont say flip could have done it as a very strong stat of mpg in a season over a career suggests otherwise. flip is a short term fix and always has been with no history of being a guy who can stay on the court for extended minutes. that is a stat based on history you can take to the bank.

Astro Joe

September 2nd, 2010
8:49 am

I think there is tremendous value in a player who helps to stretch the lead in previously tightly contested games. If nothing else, it could mean that the “Sacred Core” gets more of a break while Jamal is doing his thing. But as another blog mentioned, in a summer where the Hawks invested $120M+ and a 1st round pick in the SG position, it just doesn’t quite follow that they would now offer a contract extension to yet another SG. I will be disappointed if Jamal acts like a malcontent if he is not traded before the season. He arrived with a rep of being a selfish player. IMO, he proved otherwise. Asking for an extension is fine, becoming a malcontent when you don’t get it is not acceptable. Again, I expect that he will handle his business and recognize the need to maintain his trade value by being a good soldier. If he tries to play the diva role, it may cost him some dough in his next contract.

vava74

September 2nd, 2010
8:55 am

FACT:

Jamal: extremely poor defense and .246 from the field and .120 from 3 point land in clutch time.

PERCEPTION:

Ray: “…You lose a guy who will take and MAKE a long 3-pointer as the buzzer sounds, without flinching.”

The “MAKE” bit is the one I contest, at least last year.

vava74

September 2nd, 2010
8:57 am

doc,

Jamal attempted 19.1 FG per 48 minutes of clutch.

JJ attempted 29.3 FG per 48 minutes of clutch.

It’s a significant difference but it not a huge difference.

This means that Jamal had plenty of opportunities to shoot in the clutch (there was no JJ monopoly as many want us to believe). He simply did not drain them at an acceptable pace.

Astro Joe

September 2nd, 2010
8:58 am

Jorge Sierra: Etan Thomas’ manager Carlisle Sealy confirms the 6-foot-10 will take physicals for the Atlanta Hawks on Thursday. Twitter

Jorge Sierra: Pending results of physicals, Thomas will be signing Friday morning at the latest. Twitter

vava74

September 2nd, 2010
9:09 am

Talking about BOS and Pierce’s clutch stats:

BOS Pierce Games40 Minutes 139 (+-)21 (+-)+7 FGA16.6 FG%.375 3ptA4.1 3pt% .417 FTA11.0 FT%78% Points per 48min 22.8 Assisted 50% Rebp48 5.9 Assp484.5 TOp481.4 BLKper48 0.7 STLper48 1.4

As you can see, Piece has pretty good clutch stats, however, note the following:

- he has less FGA per 48 minutes of clutch than Jamal
- he has better FG% and 3pt%
- he has more assists and blocks per 48 (but less steals – rebounds not relevant due to size and position differential)
- he was assisted in 50% of his clutch points

The above shows that Jamal had plenty of shots in the clutch to make his stats meaningful and that those stats are far worse than Pierce’s.

It also shows that Boston had MUCH better ball distribution, less ISO – plays and consequently a lot more assists during the clutch period of games.

Well, you can argue that Jamal would also have had better FG% and 3pt% if our play had more ball movement and more assists.

However, Ray’s whole article focused on Jamal-the-other-guy-other-than-JJ-that-can-create-his-own-shot-and-can-drain-the-3pointer-at-the-buzzer

That is where I strongly disagree with both of view and I am backing my opinion with facts, namely stats which are not being thrown into the blog without interpretation.

doc

September 2nd, 2010
9:36 am

it is monopoly in time WITH the ball, vava and you know it and who had it in his hands creating his shot jj or jamal, kobe or odem, say? how many times did he get it at the end if the clock? did he get it where he needed it or just where he happened to be. if you have the ball in your hand you take your shot not someone else’s poorly designed one out of necessity. problem when you break down your stats across the board as you did earlier they fall apart when it is not of your convenience. go back and figure it out for the low liers in the system like gasol, pierce, duncan, etc and see if the stats still say what you want them to say. stay in your quicksand and i dont have time to go back and review everyone in detail but as i have pressed you on this you will find it just as flawed. is deron williams that poor of a clutch guy he ranks just a few notches above jamal? gee, he is overpaid then isnt he or is he more of a distributor first and and shoot last kind of point guard instead of the other way around? does that influence the numbers? how do you explain it across the board vava? you must if you are going to use stats with wisdom and clarity, true analytical assessments.

doc

September 2nd, 2010
10:24 am

yes, ball movement is critical to guys getting shots where they need it, boston did it well. it was scripted with allen running off multiple screens, pierce stepping in and stepping out to get the ball delivered at his sweet spot. how much did that happen in atlanta or was it more of a dump?

vava, let us then try another one, very simple, with similar numbersfor each guy, though it needs an update and i would love to see one. it may be even more pertinent because it was pre-woody for jamal:

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

who is more clutch now? jj or jamal or neither? yup, jamal when given the last shot was only a fraction worse than jj was he not? maybe they are neither clutch guys or closers like dr mb calls it. maybe crawford deteriorated as he was less the guy to get his shoot when he came here.

vava74

September 2nd, 2010
10:33 am

doc,

where did the stats fall apart?

Deron has better clutch stats than Jamal – across the board – being Assists per 48 min of clutch the main one.

In relation to shooting stats, he is also better, although not great at all .375 from the field and .214 from 3 point land.

Since he is a very good playmaker, a pretty decent defender at the PG slot and his shooting % is “mediocre” but passable for a PG, overall he is a pretty good “finisher”.

Duncan?

Passable FG% .384 to go along with 13FTA per 48min of clutch and excellent rebounding stats 18.4 per 48 minutes of clutch.

I also said REPEATEDLY that these stats were not gospel, but you cannot deny that they are meaningful.

You basically say that Jamal’s clutch FG% and 3pt% are justified because he did not receive any opportunities to launch good shots allegedly because during the last 5 minutes of every close Hawks game JJ is the only guy with the rock on his hands and Jamal only launched “desperation shots”!!!!

Please, give me a break!! You may say that stats don’t tell the whole story – and I accept – but you only present a personal perception on how the last 5 minutes of Hawks’ games developed…

And even if this was remotely true – it is not – JJ’s stats prove that he was the best clutch option.

Also, how come Josh and Al’s shooting % in the clutch are .432 and .500?? Wouldn’t their stats be worse if everyone else was getting only leftover shots as you seem to indicate?

vava74

September 2nd, 2010
10:42 am

doc,

Jamal is an ISO-free wheeling player.

Jamal had very good clutch stats in 08-09 being the “main ISO guy for his team” due mostly to his ability to get to the FT line which generated more points per 48 min of clutch than JJ but with worse FG%.

My whole argument was that WITH US LAST YEAR he did not perform at that level and that his presence on court to close games was not useful in my opinion.

My view is that you cannot have a bad defensive player who excels only in ISO situations playing at the same time that we play JJ with an assigned job as the main ISO guy.

You either play JJ or Jamal on that role, not both of them, hence I don’t consider Jamal a good option as a “finisher” for us (or for any team which already has another “assigned ISO player”).

If he is not in ISO mode he does not bring anything else and gives way to much on D.

doc

September 2nd, 2010
11:46 am

again vava i repeat a question you seem to act like a matador and dodge. who would have been better last year at what he did on the hawks to get us to 53 wins …. bibby, marvin, teague, mo, joe smith, randmo, collins? WHO? he essentially took over the role of bibby in my mind during those situations. he played admirably and out of his comfort zone i imagine and downplayed it himself and very unselfishly i might add, though many questioned his ablility to do it didnt they at the start of the season? isnt that too, worth some considerations vava as you want to make him out to be something he isnt, a defensive player? he wasnt supposed to do what jj did and i said that as well. now, who can or should have replaced him? i know you want something else but it isnt on the hawks roster now or then, why put jamal in the crosshairs because he doesnt fit your ideal?

doc

September 2nd, 2010
12:32 pm

one more thing vava, when jamal was the man at gsw, you might take notice his numbers were better for point production per 48 minutes than jj and ranked among the top ten.

http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

hmmmm, i say the guy was very unselfish last year accepting his lesser role last year. he played his heart out for us, even saying the right things when our season was crashing down around us. one thing i can tell you jj is not mr clutch when it comes to interviews when he is asked to say the right things or say i didnt do my job and i understand others frustrations as i have them myself. heh heh

Astro Joe

September 2nd, 2010
4:26 pm

doc, in that chart that you posted, Joe beat Jamal in most categories except FTAs… where Jamal took 3X as many in clutch situations as Joe… that is why the points were different. Joe was more efficient (and clearly a far superior player overall based on +/-) but failed to get to the free throw line. Or said differently, the stats bear out what most of us suspected based on visual evidence.

doc

September 2nd, 2010
4:34 pm

yes, aj, only havent we said for years the main flaw in jj’s game was his inability to get to the line and how it affects outcomes in close games! so maybe the guy that needed it more in his hands because of that should have been jamal instead of camped out away from the basket where he will do less damage. maybe jj would have been more effective without the ball spotting up where he wanted to be for his shot? would that have built on their strengths instead of their weaknesses?

doc

September 2nd, 2010
4:41 pm

aj, go back and read what i have said through this stream without the benefit of stats, that jj was not as efficient because of this very thing. it is something we have all wondered about, written about and what made the iso-joe so flawed in that situation as he didnt get the calls or he doesnt drive to the basket only falling away from it and contact to get the call. funny, with jamal showing that with gsw, doesnt it sort of dispute the notion that guys on bad teams get the calls while guys on good teams get them? maybe it is a skill as he demonstrates it even on three pointers to get the call while still making the shot.

Astro Joe

September 2nd, 2010
4:53 pm

doc, Jamal clearly knows how to get the call. IMO, that is indisputable. I recognize his value to an elite team, unfortunately, I just think that he is a luxury on a $70M payroll… a luxury that we can’t afford with the type of PG play that is likely to happen (good at best) and a lack of quality big man depth. But none of that takes away from Jamal the player, it just calls into question his long-term viability as a co-worker with the Sacred Core.

Astro Joe

September 2nd, 2010
5:01 pm

doc, Jamal’s ability to get to the free throw line is indisputable, IMO. His value as a player is fairly clear to me. I just think that on a team with a $70M payroll, he is a luxury that we can’t afford. I expect fair-to-middling PG play and fair-to-middling big man play from the bench. Neither will result in a deep playoff run. If the core remains the same (which seems to be the desired goal), I simply can’t see keeping Jamal AND expecting a better result. And to MC’s point a few days ago, if Teague is Drew’s preference to relieve Bibby (a role assigned to Jamal last season), then it appears that the plan is to reduce Jamal’s role. If Teague is increasing his minutes and Josh is seeing time at SF, unless they are sitting the $120M man (doubtful), Jamal is the guy who likely sees his minutes decrease. But again, none of that reduces Jamal’s skill set nor his ability to make something out of very little.

Astro Joe

September 2nd, 2010
5:02 pm

doc, blog ate 2 posts. Super short version, Jamal is exceptional at getting FTAs.

doc

September 2nd, 2010
7:03 pm

aj, maybe ray can do his rescue thing when he comes back on the job. ;-)

vava74

September 2nd, 2010
7:52 pm

doc,

it is pretty obvious that you don’t even read my posts.

check again: 2 hours before your “revelation” post I had already mentioned that Jamal in 08-09 whilst in GS had better points per 48 minutes of clutch time than JJ and pointed out why (FTs).

As for, who would I have had playing instead of Jamal?

Certainly I would have kept Marvin in the game to provide perimeter D and extra rebounding.

Also, Marvin’s clutch stats were pretty decent (.583 from the field, 8,7 rebounds per 48), so, I would have been OK with him taking a few shots, specially in the lane where I believe he is more effective (his 3pt% in the clutch was .000 – due to his diminutive average of 1,1 attempts per 48 minutes of clutch) AND gets the calls to get to the line.

From a play making point of view, I would have preferred to keep Bibby on the floor (defense wise they are equivalently bad) and from a FG% and 3pt%, Bibby had better numbers (not good, but much better).

doc

September 2nd, 2010
9:54 pm

vava respectfully i say i dont think bibby had it in him last year, just dont. i also dont think he brings much since he is so one dimensional now. he cant penetrate, he cant make an uncontested layup much less get into the lane to draw a foul, his defense is worse than jamal and their offensive stats including assists and t o are very similar. just dont get how you would put your marbles with him.

as far as marvin, he cant camp out where you want him to be without moving josh smith out there. he has shown no heart in being the man in the clutch and he isnt one to go for it from downtown. even though he was one of the finishers most of the time he wasnt clutch material based on his psyche and what he has done in the past, so i guess we disagree. i could get rod in here i guess to make an argument for it as well. ;-) many folks see through the mirage called marvin.

yes, sorry to reiterate what you already pointed out. it is significant to say jamal was unselfish and playing out of his usual comfort zone for the betterment of the team.

niremetal

September 2nd, 2010
11:47 pm

Another big body and still no one to come off the bench and defend the perimeter. :roll:

niremetal

September 2nd, 2010
11:48 pm

And now, back to the US Open…

doc

September 3rd, 2010
12:00 am

nire, i am sure the frenchman will sate your thirst when his name is added to the line. it will be about as well as collins, powell and etan have quenched mine for a legit big along with josh, al and zaza.

i thought the u s open was already played in pebble back in june nire.

niremetal

September 3rd, 2010
12:38 am

I’m talking about the US Open that’s played by athletes, doc ;)