Hawks Fans: Jamal Crawford – Pay him or trade him?

Paging Rick Sund. Paging Rick Sund. I hope you’ve enjoyed your vacation, because it might be getting cut just a bit short, what with Jamal Crawford making some noise.

Then again, Sund is not known for being a quick mover in this business. Here’s a question for you right out of the gate, though. Will Sund move with near the swiftness in either paying or dealing Jamal, as he did in acquiring him? Of course, such a question comes with some caveats. One is that we don’t know whether that trade (in which the Hawks sent guards Acie Law and Speedy Claxton to Golden State for Jamal Crawford) just fell into Sund’s lap, or if it was something both the Warriors and the Hawks were planning for some time, or what. Does it really matter? As it stands, Sund is not known for hurrying to make any move (see Josh Smith, Josh Childress, etc), outside of the quick and attractive offer made to Joe Johnson shortly after the free agency period began. Where does Jamal and his demands stand?

So Jamal would rather be somewhere else playing than in Atlanta, if he can’t get an extension he finds to his liking? Isn’t this the same guy who signed a clause in his contract with Atlanta, stating that he would not opt out of the final year of his contract (that would be THIS year), in the trade that brought him here? Do you think he’s being selfish, or is he doing the smart thing from a business standpoint? Is this related to the looming Collective Bargaining Agreement, or is it personal? While you think about that, let’s look at the two options Jamal has put on the table, and what either of them could mean for the team.



Do you even have to think about it? Jamal is the reigning Sixth Man of they Year. He averaged roughly 18 points per game, which is no mean feat in the NBA. He was the second option on offense. Not only that, but aside from Joe Johnson, who else on this team is  a bonafide scorer/shooter at that level? I’m not talking about just being able to score in the teens. I’m talking about being able to lead a team in scoring. Being able to put up 20 or 30 points on any given night. Being able to take an opponent off the dribble. Being able to create your own shot anywhere inside the half court line. Who else on this team (again, aside from Joe) can do his own thing, and still score 18-20 or more, even on a bad shooting night (i.e. 7 for 21)? Josh Smith? Al Horford? That is the closest you’re going to get, and neither of those guys can get to the line enough to make up for bad shooting or a stifling defense. Not yet, anyway.

What happens if Joe Johnson incurs a serious injury? Who then can step up on offense? Mike Bibby? Sure, he has the range and the stroke, but is he still capable of getting those kinds of points for a couple of games? How about five to ten games? Twenty? Can Marvin Williams do it? Do I really have to ask? Lose Jamal, and you put some pressure back on Joe Johnson and the others. Lose Jamal, and you lose some things. You lose a guy who will take and make a long 3-pointer as the buzzer sounds, without flinching. You lose a guy who can excite the crowd. You lose a guy who can energize the team off the bench. Unless of course you think there are others on the bench who can come in and be that potent a threat. Can Mo Evans do that? Without Jamal, is the bench more than a bunch of also-rans?



Pay him more money, are you crazy? We just signed Bibby to a contract before last season, that pays him roughly $6 million per year, and what was the reward? We got to watch his game decline as the year wore on. The same thing could happen with Jamal to some extent, as he is not going to get better as time goes on, not at the age of 29 or 30. Besides, we have two major things going for us – One is Larry Drew’s phenomenal offensive approach, which will not be based on isolation plays. Two, we have Jordan Crawford, who is a talent in his own right. And we don’t want him to rot away on the bench all season the way Teague nearly did last season, do we?

Look how stacked we are at the shooting guard position. There is Joe Johnson, Jamal Crawford, Mo Evans, and Jordan Crawford. Is this good team balance? How do you divide those minutes up without moving Joe and Jamal to other positions (small forward and point guard, respectively)? Is that efficient use of the team, or will it create matchup problems the Hawks don’t want to find themselves in? Also, doesn’t this team need a guy more suited to backup small forward? How about a third point guard in case Teague doesn’t pan out so well, or struggles all season? What about a better big man that the bench currently boasts? Couldn’t moving Jamal address one or more of those positions? Besides, the development of Teague and Jordan Crawford is pivotal for future considerations.

Back to Drew’s offense. If the idea is to move the ball around more and make more potent and efficient scorers out of the entire lineup, then will Jamal’s scoring prowess be needed at the level it was last season? Would he get the kind of shots and stats that made him Sixth Man of the Year last season? If not, does that diminish his value to the team? This team has one guy who can go into isolation mode if necessary, and will have to learn not to do so on a regular basis. Why keep a second one who might have the exact same issues?


So which route do you think the Hawks should go? Pay Jamal, or trade him….and why? Also, if he’s extended, how much should he be paid? The Hawks might want to be careful here, as an extension must also be reached with Al Horford, if the they don’t want to play the “watch, then match” game next summer, the way they did with Josh Smith. It’s rarely wise to do that with an All-Star player, particularly a young and promising one. Also, what ramifications might this have on the payroll? The Hawks want no part of the luxury tax, Pape Sy may not come over this year (if that buyout doesn’t work out), and the 13th roster spot has to be filled at some point.

201 comments Add your comment


August 30th, 2010
11:38 pm

I say trade him, Marvin, Bibby, and Josh. Time to start over and stop over paying for BS play. I mean come on. By no means they should have never paid J.J all of that money he could have walked. He is not worth that much. No one on the Hawks team can take over a game by themselves! Then with the Coaching search they should have hired outside of the organization. Spend money on the coaching staff and go from there. How about going after a Center! An stop drafting all of these damn FORWARDS…. OMG the team has more needs else where you know.


August 30th, 2010
11:45 pm

Oh…hello person from 2005.


August 31st, 2010
2:48 am


“Or are we only talking 4th quarter stats? Either way, we would not have won 53 games last year without him producing the way he did in the 31 mpg that he played. And that’s what Doc was talking about…”

My take is that we would have won 53 games as well with Flip given the fact that we had an injury free year and Josh and Al evolved significantly.

Jamal’s 4th quarter stats may have justified Sund’s decision but he did not live to the expectation.

The fact is that the hawks last year were WORSE finishers than in the previous year when bibby still finished games with his clutch shooting.

Again, I’m not saying that Jamal was a disaster, but his presence on court to close tight matches was not positive since his clutch shooting was poor, his PG skills are pedestrian and he defends even worse than Bibby did in 08-09.

Jamal helped us being a better 1st to 3rd quarter team (leading to easy wins) but he was directly connected to our 4th quarter woes.

Plain and simple.


August 31st, 2010
7:30 am

vava, “My take is that we would have won 53 games as well with Flip given the fact that we had an injury free year and Josh and Al evolved significantly.”

kidding right, not serious for sure. flip, had a terrible year last year and didnt come close ever to being the player crawford is. maybe crawford didnt win games att he end but he was responsible for some really interesting comebacks and had pleasant nights when jj wasnt doing jack sh!t. flip was special in his year here for the price we paid him. he has also proven to be a journeyman of the first degree.

i am not sure you can put the onus on one player for the fourth quarter blues, vava. jj had his hands on the ball most of those times didnt he? even MC had to agree iso-joe sucked as he did his analysis if you remember. it was a total team failure in the fourth quarter as the whole team faltered and flailed, changing everything they did in the first three quarters into the fourth. it was why i quit going in january, i was sick of it. also i think i remember jj stats deteriorated from the first half to the second half why not also point to that? how many times did he blow up in first quarter looking like it was his night to put up a huge 35 to 40 only to fall back and end up with his usual 25 on 23 shots. look your defamation of jamal on your conjecture is just that, conjecture with no real substance. i’ll take it as that. yes i know that jamal is a luxury and not one we can afford next year at this price so i am not arguing that or coming close, just calling it is for what it is.

“finishers” are a quality guy who plays when the game is on the line. it is overlooked by the casual fan but coaches look to it and it is often suggested as a quality for some non-starters by the media. it is what i look for at the beginning of the season on most teams to see the real players to lookf for in the clutch and watch expectantly when my team is playing them with some trepedation. horry was one, powe another in some instances, hated to see them come in late to play my team. these are guys unheralded and not appreciated by those that only look at the game from a fantasy game numbers perspective. for that reason, while i look to stats, i realize they fail to tell all of the story. i really think it is not an obsession and you know exactly what i mean, at least i hope so considering your expansive appreciation and knowledge of the game. if you want to play dumb or devil’s advocate so be it, it is what it is.


August 31st, 2010
7:46 am


Part of Jamal’s (and the team’s) fourth quarter issues are because of Woody. So under LD, it is possible that his clutch stats will improve (just like we are hoping Marvin’s numbers will improve under LD).

And I dont think Flip would have had the same effect. Jamal is a better passer and a better scorer than Flip.

As for Sy, nothing against the young fellow who was drafted 57th, but I know very little about him or his game, so I dont have much expectations for him. But LD likes him, and the Hawks could use all the help they can get, so I hope he earns PT.

However, I think it would have made more sense for the team to sign a guy like Rodney Carney (vet minimum) for 1 year, and give Sy another year to develop (whether that’s overseas, D-League, or even on the bench as the 15th guy).

But if Sy can beat out Mo, or just provide some perimeter defense, that would be awesome.


August 31st, 2010
8:01 am

The bottom line is that Al Horford has to get paid first so why not package Jamal and Josh Smith for Melo and J.R. Smith as Sekou stated on nba.com Sund needs to come off vacation and close the deal. Melo and his wife would love to return to Atlanta because this is where she lived before taking the job in NYC to work for MTV. I would also try to give them something else as bait to make Denver jump at this offer. Melo, Joe, and Al now thats a big 3 and we would compete with Miami instantly what do you think BIG RAY!!!!!!!!

Tha Real Hawk

August 31st, 2010
8:58 am


August 31st, 2010
10:34 am

how could anyone compare jc to flip. the reason we would fall apart in the 4 th quarter was because jj started hogging the play making the rest of the offense to come to a screaching halt. he is not the man i want to see with the ball with the game on the line. this is probably what caused all the team dissatifaction


August 31st, 2010
10:54 am

Jesus… I was not comparing JC to Flip as individual players.

I was saying that JC was overused and his production in the 4th quarter was sub-par and IMO one of the causes for our poor finishes.

Consequently, I also said that JC was not a real “finisher” in the way that doc has been saying he is in his posts.

He was a “finisher” because Woody made the mistake of playing him down the line when our offense was getting even less structured that it was already by default.

What I also said is that Jamal’s excessive minutes accelerated Bibby’s deterioration and Bibby’s absence at the end of games was ONE of the causes IMO that we had poor finishes.

I also stated that Jamal was crucial in many blow ups, mainly during the first half or the third quarter.

JJ was indeed a culprit himself of excessive ISO plays but his clutch stats prove that – ON AVERAGE – his performance in the last 5 minutes of the game with the score on the line WAS EXCELLENT. Just check http://www.82games.com again and compare with JC’s.

I also think that either by jealousy or by simple incompatibility JJ + Crawford was not a tandem to close games as good as was JJ + Bibby in 2008-09.

Bibby is known to be able to find the right spot to receive the pass out of the double team on JJ and he is still a decent pick ‘n roll PG.

Jamal is neither of that since he is much less cerebral in finding the right spot to receive the extra pass and is not a playmaker at all.

I like Jamal, he seems to be a stand up guy, but he is not suited to play 30+ games and in my opinion only in set cases should be called to play the last minutes of a tight match (mainly whenever there is the possibility of making substitutions in and out of TOs and FTs interruptions).


August 31st, 2010
10:58 am


August 31st, 2010
11:23 am

And while we are it, here are Flip’s clutch stats for 2008-09 (multiplied per 48 min):

ATL Murray Games37 Minutes78 (+-)29 (+-) +18 FGA 19.7 FG% .406 3ptA 5.5 3pt% .556 FTA 9.2 FT% .730 Points 25.8 Assisted 76% REB 4.3 ASS 2.5 TO 2.5 BLK 1.2 STL 3.7

And Jamal’s clutch stats with us in 2009-10:

ATL Crawford Games 36 Minutes143 (+-)45 (+-) +15 FGA 19.1 FG% .246 3ptA 8.4 3pt% .120 FTA 10.1 FT% 86% Points 19.1 Assisted 28% Reb 3.7 Ass 3.7 TO 1.7 Blks 0.0 Stls 1.7

Several striking facts:

FG% and 3pt% by Jamal were atrocious, with a 28% percentage of his points being assisted, which means that ISO Jamal was disastrous in the clutch.

Flip had excellent defensive stats in the clutch, with a lot of his blocks and steals coming during that period whilst Jamal had no blocks and fewer steals.

Flip had more turnovers but rebounded a bit better.

Jamal had more assists.


August 31st, 2010
11:28 am

Correction, SOME stats are per 48min.

And I honestly don’t know why there are two (+-) columns and frankly I don’t have the time to investigate it now.


August 31st, 2010
11:35 am

And don’t get me wrong, last Summer I was all over this blog pointing out Flip’s atrocious playoff stats and saying that we should not be worried at all about losing him when we got Jamal.

Now, in retrospect, I believe that our back court lost some toughness with Flip’s departure and if we can rely on the stats above (which seem to corroborate a naked eye analysis) we became must weaker defensively by replacing Flip with Jamal.


August 31st, 2010
12:02 pm

well i guess it was my eyes betraying me,because down the stretch of many games with atlanta holding a lead going to the 4th quarter,i would see jj starting to monopolize the ball & taking most of the shots with our lead going down the tubes


August 31st, 2010
12:13 pm


that also happened, but read the stats.

it is customary that we tend to concentrate on the negative and become selective in the information we collect with our own eyes when we have a prejudice against something.

in this case, there is a prejudice common to many hawks fans built against JJ which, although it has a base justifying it, is waaaaaaaaaay exaggerated.

JJ’s clutch stats in 2009-10 were terrific.

the problem is that we had no plan B besides some ISO-Jamal opportunities (with the results shown on the stats) and some ISO-Al or ISO-Josh plays – these with pretty decent results (Al shooting .500 from the field and Josh .423 – which includes his bone head jump shots).

Interesting stats:

Josh was the 10th best rebounder in the clutch and Al the 14th best – even playing a switching D which kept them from being nearer of the basket (with 15,7 and 15,4 rebounds per 48 minutes of clutch).

Al had better blocking stats in the clutch than Josh, although only marginally (2,0 to 1,9 blocks per 48 minutes of clutch).

Here I think that the switching D had a huge negative impact.


August 31st, 2010
12:31 pm

You should also look at JJ’s turnover stats in the clutch.

I bet that you would swear that he lost many possessions in the clutch running against double and triple teams…

check again and compare with Carmelo, Lebron, Nash, Nowistki, Paul, Roy, Bryant…

he has lower TOs per 48 minutes than all those guys and in relation to some of them its a no contest.

Another funny fact and a testimony that our switching D was abused in the clutch?

Jamal Crawford, of all people, has the best steals average per 48 minutes in the clutch for the Hawks with 1,7…


August 31st, 2010
1:37 pm

vava, you can quote all the stats for the two based on minutes, only flip is a premanant 22 mpg guy and jamal is a 35 mpg guy during their careers. that is where stats lead folks into mistaken arguments. flip has never been in a role to give the kind of minutes jamal had to last year because a certain point guard began to falter named bibby. i imagine flip is not the kind of guy who can give over time like jamal did last year. who could have played the extra 10 to 15 mpg last year that jamal did? flip played well in his role. jamal was superlative doing what he had to do which was to play starter minutes that flip has only done once in his career several years ago.

if i could post both player career summaries you could check it out but i get put into the hold category so here is one:


check flip murray under payer for the other to compare.

they were different years with totally different needs and roles. my guess flip maybe breaks down in some way when asked to perform more and why he has never been called on to do it. i also felt woody had more confidence in jamal than he had in flip, again just my own suspicion. when there is so much data suggesting flip is not a 36 minute guy ever in his career such numbers you project mean absolutely nothing to the reality of what is and 12-14 mpg on avg in the nba is a huge difference. i loved what flip did, dont mistake my sentiments here and gave him a standing o when he came back in another uni.

Big Ray

August 31st, 2010
1:51 pm

John ,

I think taking on JR Smith is a mistake. He has all the talent in the world but can be as streaky as Jamal Crawford. He also has issues off the court (recent ones at that), which can be troublesome and distracting. I also think Carmelo would prefer to be in New York, but that’s nothing more than speculation on my part. Having said that, I respect Sekou Smith a great deal, and adding those two current Nugget players makes us VERY dangerous offensively.

On the defensive side of the ball? We’d be worse. For certain.


August 31st, 2010
1:52 pm

Ball Don’t Lie has an article saying they don’t blame Hawks or Jamal for this trade idea. They’d trade him for a point guard.
I think it’s best to wait till after camp to see what shakes out. See who really wants to play and who may have pieces elsewhere before making a decision. He won’t hold out…too much at stake…and we lose nothing by waiting, probably gain more. A lot of decisions to make by end of camp. No sense being rash.

like Jamal; it’s just business. He doesn’t have the chops for defence; we need defence…and we need more point help. It’s just business.

Big Ray

August 31st, 2010
1:55 pm


Crawford led the team in scoring 27 times this season and proved a high-caliber finisher.

“Without him, a lot of games, we probably wouldn’t have won,” guard Joe Johnson said. “I’m very thankful for him.”

Yep sounds like jealousy, incompatibility, and a none too great finisher to me. And since we could have done as well with Flip Murray, how come we didn’t ? And why didn’t HE win SMOY? I’m confused…. :twisted:

Stirrin’ the pot…stirrin’ the pot…

Big Ray

August 31st, 2010
1:56 pm

wordsmithtom ,

I agree that no hurried moves need be made (unless a nice deal comes along).

Big Ray

August 31st, 2010
1:58 pm

O’brien ,

Sy struggled at times against the better summer league competitors. And sometimes he did okay against them. He is not used to the NBA game, but he appears to have all the necessary physical tools and a level of aggression to go with them. Translation: he’ll get Mario West minutes while working hard in practice every day. That’s my guess, anyhow. Assuming he’s coming over, which has not been officially announced, so I’m holding my breath on that one.


August 31st, 2010
2:22 pm

I think that the per 48 min stat is the most useless and misleading stat there is. What’s the purpose of projecting a player production over 48 mins when most players do not play the entire game (48 mins)?

Astro Joe

August 31st, 2010
2:30 pm

Ray, Jamal is clearly better than Flip. But I would still take a $1.5M sniper off the bench over a $10M sniper off the bench, because (in a perfect world) I’m getting better value out of the remaining $8.5M from other positions. I don’t too much care what the player’s name is, on a team with a middling payroll, spending $10M on a bench sniper just doesn’t seem prudent especially a one-dimensional player.

Would I have taken 6 less wins last year (with the same playoff outcome) and $10M in cap relief this summer?


August 31st, 2010
3:24 pm


August 31st, 2010
3:26 pm

*Why rush to re-sign Horford?

Astro Joe

August 31st, 2010
4:24 pm

Melvin, I’m not sure that the Hawks get the same benefit as other teams. It seems to me that Duncan and Kobe were probably far happier with their teams (and prospects for multiple titles) when they were faced with a comparable contract situation. I could be wrong about Kobe… I don’t recall if he won a title while still on his rookie deal or not. All I know is that we were the only team to lose an American born lottery pick to a European team during the RFA period. Am I really supposed to assume that the standard for other successful franchises (like the Lakers and Spurs) is the standard for the Hawks?


August 31st, 2010
4:46 pm


But the fact remains that the Horford will be a RFA so the Hawks will have the last right of refusal…..


August 31st, 2010
7:41 pm


the clutch stats I posted are not pure “per 48min” stats like for instance the ones you will see on http://www.nba.com and which useless since a guy who plays 5 minutes of garbage time and averages 3ppg would project as a 28,8 points per 48 minutes player.

These stats are the average stats amassed by players during the last 5 minutes of the game and/or overtime WHEN the result is closer than 6 points (5 or less) which means when the game is on the line. – please read the header explaining this at http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT12.HTM

Then, some of the average stats are multiplied per 48 minutes so you can better compare players who had more minutes in the clutch with players which had less minutes.


I was not stating that JJ and Jamal did not gel due to jealousy, I mentioned that as a “possibility” along with Jamal’s poor perception on where to be to get the pass out of the double and triple teams.

Personally I don’t think (and never did) that JJ was jealous of Jamal. I simply mentioned that since many do think that.

On the 6th man award: the award is an individual prize and is only collaterally connected with team success.

Difference between 47 — 53 wins (08/09 – 09/10)

Must I mention again that last year we were virtually injury free and that during 2008-09 we lost JJ, Al, Josh and Marvin for significant stretches?????

AND you have the nerve to quote journalists to confirm that he was a good finisher?????? As we all did not know that most journalists merely repeat nonsense after nonsense?

I will post this again and I will continue to do it until you block my IP: http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT12.HTM



I am not taking anything from him, I am simply battling a miss conception.

The PHO’s game winner trey was AN EXCEPTION.


August 31st, 2010
8:50 pm

Ray I had one that didn’t make it then was told I was posting a duplicate
Unfortunately by this software can’t cut and paste without losing it


August 31st, 2010
8:54 pm

Melvin especially when jc1 has avg mid thirties in his career and flip low twenties. Guess there is a reason? Jc1 took up the slack when Bobby fell off the ability to play extended minutes curve. Flip would not have been able to do this based on his history and jt0 would have been exposed trying to make up the difference.

drmaryb (*_*)

August 31st, 2010
10:55 pm

Jamal will get an extension. You already know what ure gonna’ get.

Al will have to play for pay. He will be signed under the new CBA after signing a contract that the Hawks will match! If, he is an All-Star again?

The price will be steep, but for only three years term. ASkG should wait and see about Horford’s money.


August 31st, 2010
11:00 pm

Hi, admin, I like your blog,chi flat irons but how can I subscribe to the blog itself?

Big Ray

September 1st, 2010
12:42 am

Astro Joe ,

True, but as you say – “In a perfect world.” $10 million in cap relief means what around here? More room to upgrade the team? More room away from luxury tax? What?

Big Ray

September 1st, 2010
1:13 am

Melvin ,

I think Kelly’s point is what it usually is: another opportunity to bash the Hawks (both the team and the front office). Trust me, if anything goes sideways with Al Horford and his contract situation, this guy will be first in line to bash us again. He didn’t say anything we didn’t already know…Hawks could make Horford an offer, or they could let the market do it. Gee whiz, what a concept…

Having said that, the Hawks may have painted themselves into a rough spot when they paid JJ the way they did. Who knows how things will go with Al. The point has nothing to do with whether he is a malcontented type or not. He is a businessman.

Big Ray

September 1st, 2010
1:33 am

Doc and Vava ,

Posts rescued from the blog monster…

drmaryb (*_*)

September 1st, 2010
2:21 am

The Closer!

Kobe is the Closer.
I have never heardf of the term, The Finisher used in Basketball?
I reckon a finisher is the opposite of a starter?


September 1st, 2010
3:23 am

thanks Ray.

My crusade against Jamal’s “finisher” label continues!


September 1st, 2010
7:19 am

Big Ray,

Do I have a post in the blog monster? I tried to post one talking about 3 teams being rebuffed by Rick when he was approached with trade offers for Jamal (BEFORE his pay me or trade me).

As for Al, what is the max the team can offer him right now? 5 years, $82 mil?

Rick has his work cut out for him again. Josh got 5 years, $60 mil, 2 years ago, and last year Rick offered JJ a 4 years, $60 mil extension.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I’m thinking they will offer Al an extension in the 5 years, $65 mil range.

Astro Joe

September 1st, 2010
9:18 am

OB, your proposal for Al sounds about right to me. If Smith received ~$58M after some headache issues (which have since been mostly resolved), then Horford’s resume suggests at least a $10M premium. Somewhere between $65M-$70M seems to make sense to me.

Melvin, Dwyer’s argument could seemingly be made for every player at this point in their contract. But I disagree. i think there are a few players who fall below the “max” distinction who still should not hit RFA because they are undoubtedly a cornerstone of the franchise.

If the Hawks opt not to offer an extension, I sincerely hope that Sund sits down with Al and has an old fashioned man-to-man talk. Don’t let any misperceptions exist and don;t let the agents convey the sentiments from the team. Treat him like an adult, like someone who understands the business side of the industry. Heck, treat him like he is truly the team’s leader and deserves a little more dialgoue with the front office than employee #10. There is a way to annoint Horford as the “chosen one” during this off-season without extending his contract. But it all starts with a face-to-face chat.


September 1st, 2010
11:17 am


I understand the clutch stat however, whenever you mutliply a player production over 48 mins it becomes a misleading stat b/c it moves the data away from the true facts. Simply b/c players do not play for 48 mins per game. Hence, your reference to why the 48 min multiplier is used. Those stats make for interesting reading but they are useless… I think my B.S. in Mathematics has taught me a thing or two in statistics…


September 1st, 2010
11:57 am

Melvin, Vava,

Since the ASG’s actions (or lack of) have implied that most of the problems last season were due to Woody (directly and indirectly), how much emphasis should we put on the players statistics that were achieved under Woody?

I think there is some grey area there, and given a new coach, and a new offense, it will be different to see the change in the nimbers.


Rick’s policy is he usually waits until the player’s contract is up. And given the possibility of a more owner friendly CBA (and a possible lockout) on the horizon, he might not offer an extension at all.

If he doesn’t offer the extension, I would hope his actions would be along the lines of your 9:18 post.


September 1st, 2010
12:48 pm

Yes dr m b a finisher is the guy you want on the floor at the end of games. It is different from starter and not related to clutch or closer. Often guys start but don’t finish. I think the money is on the finisher and is ignored as to their importance to a team. Bobby wasn’t a finisher last year a lot of the time, Jamal was as he continued to play starter minutes though coming off the bench. Ginobli finishes doesn’t start and plays big minutes when healthy. I want him giving me a chance to win not necessarily to take the last shot.

I think cava is wanting to make this a different discussion. It is about who you want on the floor at the end of a game, a finisher.


September 1st, 2010
1:05 pm


Jamal is a scorer/shooter who shot badly in the clutch

He is a bad defensed and a subpar playmaker.

Why the hell would you want to have him as a finisher?

The only really good stat he brought last year in the clutch was his FT%.


September 1st, 2010
1:09 pm


September 1st, 2010
1:54 pm

yes vava, he drove the ball and got into the lane and got foul shots, which he made. jj cant do that and it is needed in the late parts of games. maybe he should have had that responsibility more often. who else do you want in there vava, bibby or marvin, who both had terrible years offensively and defensively? who did they stop all year? it seems this is more of a personal thing vava. you dont like him, so be it. you wont find value in the guy no matter how many rational efforts are made to you.

he was the sixth man of the year because of his role last year as part of the team that got 53 wins. are you going to argue that and say all the voters are idiots and you are the smartest basketball guy in the world because you disagree with them? i guess in my mind he had to be a finisher. he was not the guy choking the ball as game clocks ticked down when woody went to his prevent offense much like woody hayes went to his three yards and a cloud of dust or smith went to his four corners offense. there lies the problem which we get to see if it is fixed with LD in command.

look, i am not arguing this is the guy we need to sign for a long term huge contract only giving him his due nor do i say let us hitch our wagon to long term, as they say. much as we would have sunk without flip we would have faltered tremendously without jamal there to pull it out on many occasions. flip couldnt have played those minutes as he never has in his career certainly not in his thirties. bibby hadnt gone to the trash heap yet while flip was here is my argument against your silly 48 minute meaningless stats. teague couldnt have competently made up the difference is my guess. jamal was the only guy who could go deep and drive to the basket to get fouls, again maybe that should have been done more often and his talents were wasted as the clock ran down in games. woody’s game also got us 53 wins, so it aint bad either. look vava, i get it, you dont like jamal’s game. that is fine and i accept that. history is history and the guy won the 6th moy. if that isnt a finisher when a guy is on the court while winning it as the clock ticks down then i will stand wrong.


September 1st, 2010
2:08 pm

Jamal was a finisher for Woody because Woody liked shooters….witness ISO hell. That was then; this is now. If you just look at FT%, Marvin had a better % than Jamal, yet he sat on the bench. With his bulk, FT%, and defence, I’d venture to say MW SHOULD have been a finisher more often than he was.
Again, new coach, new philosophy of ball and player movement. I expect a lot of change this year, but the biggest is the way the offence is run.


September 1st, 2010
2:18 pm

“Jamal was a finisher for Woody because Woody liked shooters..”


Was Josh Childress a shooter b/c I recall him finishing more games than Marvin. I agree with Woody on that perspective, having JChill or Jamal finishing the games over Marvin…


September 1st, 2010
2:20 pm

Speaking of JChill, if the Hawks trade Jamal then I would have preferred to re-sign Chills. However, that is hindsight (or having a plan)…


September 1st, 2010
3:03 pm

JChill is a different kind of player than Jamal. Chill could create his own shot, play defence, as well as weok down low. Jamal is one dimentional, ala Villie Johnson. If he’s hot: great. If not, not so. Way too often he stayed in when he was “not so”, to the detriment of morale IMHO.

Marvin finished very well when JJ wasn’t there. Some say he’s soft. Ask Ford if he’s soft; ask Rondo if he’s soft. He looks awkward, but he’s far from soft. And he shoots 90% from the free throw line. That’s the kind of player you want at ends of games; guys who can hit that +1.