Hawks Fans: Safety in numbers and changing landscapes

I have to say I’m pretty impressed with you, my fellow Hawks fans.

Despite the fact that things are in slow motion this time of year, y’all have really kept up the discussion (intelligently, I might add) at a pretty high rate, even when it may or may not seem like there is a lot to talk about. Or maybe it’s not that there isn’t a lack of subject matter, as much as there is so many things that have been re-hashed over and over. Yet things have not gone stale, and that is thanks to you. So, let’s keep it going…

 

Bench Mob

I think that the idea of watching this team under Larry Drew really has sparked a great deal of discussion, despite the various supposed or assumed circumstances surrounding his hire. One issue in particular that many are probably anticipating is how he will use his bench. After years of watching a Hawks rotation that was comprised primarily of seven and sometimes guys (I’d say Mo Evans’ status as a rotation player was in a constant state of flux), should we expect a lot of change? Is there a “safety in numbers” line of thinking with Drew and his staff? Even more to the point, does he truly feel that he can go a solid eight, nine, or even ten deep with the current roster he has (plus whomever gets signed between now and the start of the season)?

There are a lot of questions here, and they won’t be answered until that first buzzer sounds, though we should get some pretty good hints of what is to come during the preseason (where we will also get to see that vaunted offense). Okay, so we know Jamal Crawford and Zaza Pachulia are rotation players. What of Mo Evans? Will he get consistent minutes? Maybe we should be asking whether or not he’ll earn them, and where he’ll get most of his playing time. Jeff Teague is expected to see an increase in minutes as well, becoming a part of the rotation. That automatically gives the Hawks a nine man rotation. Will Josh Powell be a regular in the frontcourt as well? He reportedly came here to get more playing time than he was getting with the L.A. Lakers, but he will have to provide something that is missing, for that to happen. What of Jason Collins? Is he another Mike Woodson scapegoat conduit or a useful player? 

There is another view we can take on this “safety in numbers” theory, and it applies to Drew’s offense. All five guys on the attack, he says. Well, that is certainly better than one guy on the attack by himself, with the variation of such an offense being that the ball is passed to another guy who goes on the attack by himself. But….might it be too complicated? Will guys who have gotten the lion’s share of the shot attempts get the same number of attempts, or will that change? Will the Hawks learn to “ride the hot hand”, or will Drew call for a strict offense that requires sharing of the ball regardless of what is happening on the court? While the latter is probably unlikely to be the case, you just never really know until the games are played. So much depends on the players buying into and committing to a workable scheme.

To this point, the Hawks have gotten by on talented players, despite the fact that we sometimes undervalue what we have. The front office and ownership seem to think that the current roster has enough talent, but that it could be better utilized. How much better?

What are your thoughts? Is there safety in numbers?

 

If you wanted another big man….

You got your wish. Well, sort of. With the addition of Kenny Gattison, the Hawks put a tough guy on their bench, but he’ll be wearing a suit full-time. A gritty and effective role player when he was in a jersey, Gattison should be bringing that attitude to practices (we certainly hope). Fortunately, he also brings some experience on the sidelines, having spent a couple years in New Jersey under John Calipari, and more recently several years in New Orleans, including under Byron Scott. One wonders – will he be another “big man” coach, same as Ty Hill, or will his area of concentration be elsewhere? What do you think of this addition to Drew’s staff?

 

On The Horizon

Regardless of how we think of them, some members of the Hawks front office are wanted by other teams. As Hawks beat writer Michael Cunningham reports, director of pro personnel Steve Rosenberry is apparently headed to Portland to become an assistant GM. Meanwhile, current Hawks assistant GM David Pendergraft could be taking Steve Kerr’s old job in Phoenix. So what does that mean for the Hawks? While we probably don’t care too much as fans who the new director of pro personnel and college scouting would be (seriously, did you even know who Rosenberry was before this?), there is perhaps a modicum of interest in who Sund would replace Pendergraft with, should he be moving to the Arizona desert.

Having been in the league well over 30 years, Sund surely has numerous contacts, and for every guy who wants to be a GM some day, there’s a guy who knows that becoming an assistant GM is stepping stone leading up to that in most cases. If I recall correctly, Pendergraft is currently over all scouting. So, whoever would replace him (again, if he goes) would presumably take over that task and responsibility. But what do we think of Pendergraft? Has his scouting experience and expertise shown to be worth something, or would we be anticipating an upgrade? To be totally honest, there is only so much to work with. Under Sund and Pendergraft’s watch, the following guys have been drafted by the Hawks – Jeff Teague, Sergei Gladyr, Pape Sy, and Jordan Crawford (correct me if I’ve missed anybody). Even with Teague, we still don’t quite know what we have. However, we shall hopefully enjoy finding that out.

Thoughts, my fellow Hawks fans?

 

(UPDATE): One more thing. Did you see this one coming, and does it make Boston a tougher matchup for us?

193 comments Add your comment

soldierman

August 4th, 2010
7:59 am

I think it’s going to be a realy good season. Can’t wait to see what the drew man has in store with this offense. You heard it hear frist. Marvin Williams has a breakout year.

westurd

August 4th, 2010
8:25 am

Marvin Williams….breakdown year (Wait, that was the last two years)

Swingman912

August 4th, 2010
8:32 am

Movement of the ball will definitely be better, but in order for it to be completely effective, everyone has to to buy in. So even if Joe has the hot hand, we shouldnt go back to the stagnant Iso offense, because we become 1 dimensional again. Keep the offense going, so the opposition will have to be aware of all players on the floor, not just the hot hand…….Its possible players like Marvin, who were considered to be under-achievers, should really floursish in this system, while our mainstays like Joe, Smoove, and Boss, numbers may drop a little, but efficiency should definitely be on the rise……..I feel Teague should be the starter. I know he may still be raw, but there’s no better way to learn than experience, and he’s still mobile(unlike Bibby) to drive to the cup and stay in front of opposing PG’s. Let him take the lumps and learn from them. Lett Bibby come off the bench and be a spot up shooter, and the mentor to Teague……….the anticipation is KILLING ME!!!……….CHUUUUUUUUCH

Stotts Era

August 4th, 2010
8:53 am

give me one good reason i should have confidence in larry drew? b/c in my mind its all on him

The Real JC

August 4th, 2010
9:11 am

Wow, another giant ego on the Celtics? Screw coach of the year, Doc Rivers deserves the Nobel Peace Prize!

[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Kris Willis, Michael Cunningham. Michael Cunningham said: AJC's fan blog: Hawks Fans: Safety in numbers and changing landscapes http://bit.ly/ac8mgh [...]

The Real Hawk

August 4th, 2010
9:21 am

Let’s see: still small in the middle, stll no proven scoring small forward.

Melvin

August 4th, 2010
9:45 am

KG, Shaq (not official yet), J.O’Neal, Big Babe and KP (healthy before the playoffs)…. That’s safety in numbers. Oh yeah, Rasheed hasn’t retired yet…

Melvin

August 4th, 2010
9:53 am

Tweet from Kevin Durant. How can you not like this kid:
“To be honest I appreciate Kenny smith comments but I’m not on dwade melo dirk Paul p level, I ain’t done nothing yet…but stay tuned!”

And the Hawks 126 mil dollar star won’t even apologize to the fans for his comments that was misunderstood (at best). Joe just don’t get it…

doc

August 4th, 2010
10:03 am

nire go back and reread my comments in my last comment to you regarding why the owners changed their tactics on spending. i never focused my comments on shaq but on getting a big and there were some out there but that is all you spoke about. yes, i would have liked shaq. my comments were civil and spoken as a fan, admittedly. also think once the heat got the threesome the askg saw the handwriting on the wall though it may be short sighted like their non-use of mle last year and this. as a fan i want to see improvements made to the roster, simple minded yes, but as a fan.

as far as your style of canniblogging you might take heed to these sage words:

What’s the old saying about walking a mile in someone’s shoes before criticizing them? Try keeping some modicum of that in mind before you bash them. It’s a good rule to live by in life …. author is nire. go figure.

niremetal

August 4th, 2010
10:05 am

Melvin,

Enlighten me. When did Joe say he was at the level of those guys? Because I see zero connection between Durant’s statement and Joe, except that it gave you an opportunity to bash Joe.

niremetal

August 4th, 2010
10:07 am

Doc,

Tell you what. Stop criticizing people for things you clearly don’t know and I’ll stop criticizing you for criticizing them for things you clearly don’t know.

O'Brien

August 4th, 2010
10:13 am

Ray,

I think Mo Evans will get consistent minutes, but it will not be enough for his liking.

LD has options, because he might go with Jamal at PG, Mo at SG, and JJ at SF for spot minutes. Or JJ at SF and Jamal at SG.

Just like the effect LD will have on the Hawks, I think the loss of Thibodeau can affect the Celtics and their defense negatively.

Dont you have to be in shape to play in LD’s pentangle offense? I can’t wait to see what shape Collins is in.

El Bravo

August 4th, 2010
10:17 am

Big Ray, what a great place for Shaq to land at. A veteran team that does most of it’s damage on the half-court set. He is going to be very effective there. The Hawks are now no better than fourth in the East…

Astro Joe

August 4th, 2010
10:50 am

I guess we have to wait until Sund is convinced that the combo of the CORE and Drew won’t exceed the 2nd round before we see any significant change. And until then, the ASG shouldn’t expect any significant change in revenue. Kind of stuck in an ugly cycle… team needs more revenue before increasing spending while fans need something new before spending their well-earned disposable income on this product. Meanwhile, players aren’t likely to accept a discount to play here because we’re not legit title contenders AND due to a sometimes disinterested fan base. Someone has to go out on a limb to break the cycle, either ownership, the fan base or a player who can make a difference (and will accept less). I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for the Atlanta sports fan to come to the rescue.

Melvin

August 4th, 2010
10:56 am

Nire,

I never say Joe did. I admired the humblest and a swagger in the statement by KD. I post several of his tweets in the past and it’s easy to see why he is well like by the public. As for Joe, I would have preferred Joe apologize to the fans (or at least clarify his statement) but hey, I guess that’s not something he’s interested in doing it. Just b/c I criticized a guy, doesn’t mean I’m bashing him.

doc

August 4th, 2010
11:04 am

nire, i guess then if you wont heed your own words, it is live by the sword and die by the sword.

not going to say i am sorry that i have my opinions, just like you. are you the only one here that is allowed to criticize? are you really that omnipotent? you say things like you know all and are sadly proven wrong over and over. even after your diatribe with stevew who seemed to do his research over and over while MC was away to end in, “well if MC heard it maybe it is so and i wonder why?”. you also speak of me without knowing any of my background.

so shall we all sit here not critique or criticize and sing kumbaya?

well here it is maybe we can sing it in rounds:

Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya,
Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya,
Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya, oh, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya,
someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya, oh Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s praying, Lord, Kumbaya,
Someone`s praying, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s praying, Lord, Kumbaya, oh Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s crying, Lord, Kumbaya,
someone`s crying, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s crying, Lord, Kumbaya, oh, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s sleeping Lord, Kumbaya,
someone`s sleeping, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s sleeping, Lord, Kumbaya, oh, Lord, Kumbaya.

feel better alrteady.

nire, ludicrous.

ray, nire seems to want you to shut this thing down because people criticize the hawks and management. blog police are out in full force, watch out sir this thing will come to a screetching halt if we heed his warnings.

gee, isnt there a woody hater around these parts that criticized him to no end? did he know what EXACTLY woody had to put up with this two penny operation, how his hands were tied to limited rosters. did he walk in his shoes before he criticized a guy who avg 50 wins a year in two seasons? though not a strong supporter of woody i am open to the idea we might just find out how good woody was. just maybe. in the mean time nire, at least stop the self-righteous hypocrisy. nire, there is no grace to your objections, especially against astro, melvin and others. what was it that someone said last week to you, just because you yell bullsh!t it doesnt make it fact.

btw, i would love to see you walk up to horford and tell him he doesnt know what he is talking about because he is not a gm or a businessman, as if you do. too funny, loved that image from the first time you made the statement.

Astro Joe

August 4th, 2010
11:07 am

doc, well, I feel better. Can we sing “Let There be Peace on Earth” next? Please? :)

MannyT

August 4th, 2010
11:07 am

@Melvin, from last blog.

Spend your $$ as you please, but keep these things in mind:
* The expectation is that our current personnel will be used differently under LD.
* Hawks have played well against the Celtics recently…and they are getting older.
* The Heat will be a hot ticket.
* With the Wiz adding John Wall, we have the most interesting division in the NBA.
* There are flex plans to get less than a season ticket.

Do I expect a better home record this season, NO.
Do I expect a very good home season, YES.

Hope to see you at some point in the Highlight Factory.

Melvin

August 4th, 2010
11:17 am

Manny T,

Come on, you should know I’m just talking trash. You know I will be at the Philips Arena this season. I at least want to contribute some monies to help this organization…

Astro Joe

August 4th, 2010
11:26 am

Jeff Schultz’ current blog captures a lot of what the city is feeling about the Hawks during the off-season. I suspect that one of the primary objectives of any sports team’s off-season is to keep/get fans excited for the coming season (something the Falcons and Braves do quite well here). If you’re the OKC Thunder, I’m sure it is keeping fans excited. If you’re the Knicks, it’s getting fans excited. I think the Hawks have utterly and completely failed to excite their fan base this summer. Cutting Woody free was a good and needed step. Resigning Joe was the right move. Jordan Crawford was a nice late draft pick-up. But none of those moves moved the needle of excitement. Casual fans will likely look at the roster in November and ask “what changed?” And let’s face it, it is the casual fan that makes the difference between 12k in the arena and 18k in the arena. The fan who likely never blogs about our Hawks.

Melvin

August 4th, 2010
11:29 am

Doc,

Looks who else agree with you, Astro and I.

From Sekou twitter page:
RT @docktora: this is dead on…hawks ownership mess continues to hold team back. amazing they’re as good as they have been http://bit. … about 1 hour ago via web

niremetal

August 4th, 2010
11:33 am

not going to say i am sorry that i have my opinions, just like you. are you the only one here that is allowed to criticize? are you really that omnipotent?

Nope, and you can stop being disingenuous, thanks. I am fine with you or anyone else criticizing based on the things they do see and know. But criticizing people for things that you have no f*cking clue about? That’s different, in my view. My tack is that I avoid criticizing based on things I don’t know. I generally assume that people have good reasons for doing the things they do absent reliable, concrete evidence to the contrary. You don’t seem to live by that rule. So I call you out.

If a layman was criticizing your medical practice based on speculation as to what they thought your motivations and behind-the-scene actions were, I have a feeling you’d be miffed. But you have no problem doing it to other people. That’s my issue.

Feel free to criticize based on things you do see. You’ll notice that while I get into long debates about whether players and coaches deserve particular lines of criticism, I don’t say that fans shouldn’t criticize players or coaching as a rule. The reason is that we actually do see with our own eyes what goes on during games. So criticizing a player or coach is fair game in my eyes (unless it’s stuff like “I don’t think Player X works hard enough in the offseason,” because we don’t know what most players do in the offseason or “Coach X doesn’t do enough of Y during practice,” because we don’t see what goes on during practice).

I also have no problem with people criticizing particular free agent signings or trades – as long as they stick to discussing the personnel moves themselves, without speculating as to the behind-the-scenes stuff as they don’t know. You don’t like the Crawford trade? Fine, neither did I. Don’t like the re-signing of Collins? Fine, neither do I. Think other players would have been a better fit than Collins for the team? Fine, so do I. Those are all things that present no problem to me, because we know that Collins has been re-signed.

But there’s a line past which you cross into the realm of things that we, as fans, don’t know. And that’s the line I don’t like to see crossed. Saying “the Hawks only signed Collins because they weren’t willing to spend the money needed for a better player” crosses that line because none of us knows why Collins was signed or what other players (if any) were considered and rejected by the front office for that roster spot. Pretty much all talk of a front office’s motivations and reasoning are based on things that we, as fans, don’t know and don’t see. Thus, I view most of that talk as “crossing the line.” I criticize people when I think they have crossed that line.

It’s not hypocritical. If you think it’s arrogant of me, fine. I freely admit that niremetal is arrogant (Matt has softer edges, but blogs sharpen those edges). But I strongly believe that crossing the line I just discussed is also arrogant. Every time you, Melvin, AJ, or anyone else cross the line and criticize people’s motivations or finances when you do not, in fact, know jack sh!t about those things, you are being presumptuous and arrogant. I will keep calling you out on that arrogance as long as you keep it up.

niremetal

August 4th, 2010
11:37 am

And PS – I have zero problem if you call me out when you think I’m doing the same thing. I always try to recognize the limits of my knowledge about stuff, but sometimes I cross the line without realizing it.

niremetal

August 4th, 2010
11:45 am

Lastly, I admit that my line is somewhat arbitrary because (and now I’m getting into the realm of philosophy and metaphysics), we don’t really know anything with certainty. As the old saying goes, “I know that I know nothing.” Our eyes, ears, and brains can deceive us. But I view discussing people’s motivations and speculation as to their behind-the-scenes actions as particularly dangerous ground to walk into.

MannyT

August 4th, 2010
12:00 pm

@Ray
Yes, the bloggers have kept up the discussion. While the comments are thoughtful, they are more cannibalistic during the summer when there isn’t another game in 2 days to provide momentum.

The more thoughtful folks come here and the less thoughtful, more evil folks tend to stick with the beat blog…until several of their personalities get banned.

Only 6 more days until the full season schedule is released.

All that said, Laissez Les Bon Temps Rouler …and have a fun way to see who is coming & going in the NBA :-)

MannyT

August 4th, 2010
12:17 pm

If people were only critical of things when they had an above average amount of knowledge, the blogosphere, talk radio, cable news punditry and twitter might all collapse into a black hole 8-O

The lack of insight is the engine behind most modern dialog. Does anyone think the ASG ownership & management spend as much time as bloggers do, trying to solve their team issues? If they did, I could predict that they would ALL fall victim to sleep deprivation!

Stay thirsty for the knowledge my friends.

I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance.
Socrates

Dept. of Unintended irony

August 4th, 2010
12:26 pm

“I always try to recognize the limits of my knowledge about stuff, but sometimes I cross the line without realizing it.”

niremetal

August 4th, 2010
12:34 pm

MannyT,

But do we actually know Socrates said that? ;)

D.S.G.B.

August 4th, 2010
12:40 pm

the hawks are gonna be just fine. just wait and see. we will have over fifty wins again and will be in the top four or five teams in the east, we will be in the playoffs, and we will have another chance at gettin further.

MannyT

August 4th, 2010
1:09 pm

…then how about this one…

I know nothing.

Sgt. Shultz, Hogan’s Heroes ;-)

hawksfan23

August 4th, 2010
1:12 pm

as a hawks fan i should know better than to beleive the asg saying they were going over the luxury tax to get better or going over thirteen players to have a deep bench that was stupid of me but as a georgia native i can only anticipate next year because there is one constant i will always be a hawk fan and proudly that will never change despite not having good ownership but hey maybe this is all leading up to something incredible for next year? maybe they will utilize the pieces they will have or maybe it will be another pointkess summer of adding a rookie, and vet min player because i cannot hold back the excitement of josh powell coming here or that we trust jason collins with more minutes , personally i thought joe smith is the best bench player we had, but all in all if we dont resign randolph morriss or the guy who played defense so well (sadly his name has slipped my mind ) i will look at this summer as a positive one

hawksfan23

August 4th, 2010
1:14 pm

mario west that was his name

Astro Joe

August 4th, 2010
1:32 pm

I didn’t realize that Doc Rivers had discussed bringing Ty Lue on board in an assistant coach/player development role. What a ridiculous idea. They obviously must not know that having an assistant on the bench who is <40 will keep them from winning another ring. Maybe we can tell Shaq that we're a better choice because our coaches are older.

Astro Joe

August 4th, 2010
1:35 pm

Doc Rivers is an f’ing idiot. He obviously doesn’t know that having a young assistant coach will impede the team from winning another ring. What a fool.

A. Sherrod Blakely: #Celtics asst. coach Tyronn Lue working out, hopes to make a comeback. Worst case scenario? Back w/#Celtics in player development role. Twitter

rusty

August 4th, 2010
2:14 pm

i dont really know how any one can justify paying jj all that money. sorry to bring up an old sore subject. this man ripped the fans who pays his salery & never had the decency to say he was sorry. didnot every one see how he hurt this team with his ballhoging we should play uptemp. i cant ever remember him pushing the ball on a fast break. i dont think he is capable of leading a fastbreak. i certainly cringed how he tried to take over a gamewith 6 minutes left it usually meant disaster for us. i dont want him taking the last shot in the game. i think he is a choker as he always
has proven in the playoffs. i just cant see him in an uptemo ball movement offense where he would share the ball

doc

August 4th, 2010
2:18 pm

nire, your line is more than arbitrary, it is self deceiving. there are no lines. you always better study the intentions of folks and try to come up with some rationales nire or you will fail miserably. the good ones that do this succeed and it is a knack or intuition that folks have. i saw it first as a management consultant then as a doc running my own practice as well as serving on boards for the hospitals and businesses in the community. you better look deeper than what is face value is the way i see it and call it. competition is out there. do i get it wrong? occasionally, but most of the time pretty close including predicting the pull back once lebron decided he was joining bosh and wade in miami. that is what makes riles so good. by that move he neutered the less committed and bold competition the same way the lakers did in grabbing barnes. they got stronger and the opposition they might have to face in a seven game series got weaker and which is best? probably the latter as they have to deal with it for 82 games.

as far as dividing a line between players, coaches and management not sure why. do you really think you can see it all because it is one the court? how about the way the team went south in disagreement in the end? that wasnt on the court, now was it? guess we cant bring that one up by your lines. how about the lack of enthusiasm lebron had in the series they lost, all mechanical on the court or was something eating at him and his psyche? in todays world of communication someone gets the scoop. players and coaches are under the same types of issues as management and intentions better be known to understand why things are done. for example astro called it right on woody not using teague to save his job and get wins. he said it in an interview. no one told him teague needed to come along all the while he had a pending contract. coaching scared is how some read it. not factual but the right call.

for years we debated the chill thing. in case you missed it, because you did the first go around, he confirmed what i had said had happened between the two negotiating parties. i posted it, i am sure you saw it but quietly dodged it and didnt comment on it. it was chills first interview where he could say it out loud because he was free from the hawks and their management style. yes, it is also important to notice the great corporations and the not so. so far this one has not shown the distinction of what it takes at the top to do what it takes to want to see as a fan and a season ticket holder. i think that is a fact, but by your standard not sure that was something i could say.

as far as the metaphysics thing yeah, i get that pretty good. it is a holographic universe with each and every person having a vastly different viewpoint. i accept that. i dont take it personal nor call out people and call them names or speak or write derogatory of them. usually keep it civil even in disagreement. i think if you go back and look you may find out you dont. maybe you like to do that, i wont read into it because that might cross the line. you do seem to make it personal and probably cross the line there more than anyone this side of truth. so yes, i will call you out to be more graceful and less offensive to make your point. you are certainly educated enough to know the difference holding one of the better minds here on this thoughtful blog, maybe not capable for some other reason.

nire, please, at my age dont arbitrarily try to make rules or draw lines for me as you know and qualify they are really not there, so it makes it sound even sillier on your part. not sure why you frustrate yourself to make them. that is your stuff. let us still talk basketball and the owners are a part of it. sorry, they are as much the problem as the solution so i will continue to make reference to them and their shenanigans right or wrong in my own eyes. by the way the off season is where the glare goes to management, this is their spotlight time to get it right and build for the future or fail miserably not to be seen until novemebr. again, i am not sure why you say they are not part of our discussions and conjecture. that is what papers have done for years with editorialists and beat writers and now as bloggers we get to do it rather than go to the local coffee shop to have these debates.

Rod from College Park

August 4th, 2010
2:52 pm

doc,

Great job. Mr. knowitall can’t be wrong. I wonder who was right about Marvin? Unbelievable!!!!

niremetal

August 4th, 2010
3:24 pm

for years we debated the chill thing. in case you missed it, because you did the first go around, he confirmed what i had said had happened between the two negotiating parties. i posted it, i am sure you saw it but quietly dodged it and didnt comment on it.

It’s amusing that you consider Chills’ statements sufficient to prove his statements as fact, since 1) he didn’t say he knew what had been offered, only what he “thought” was offered and 2) it’s only one side of the story. He was never even in the negotiating room, and was going based on what his agents (who have their own agenda) told him. Again, I have inside info on that particular thing. I don’t give really give a damn whether you believe me on that or not, but I do. You’re wrong about the sequence of events. The offer from Greece was in the works well before Josh even hit the free agent market. Common sense should tell you that’s true, and I’ve tried to explain why many times. But hey, keep selectively reading articles, and ignoring evidence (and common sense) to the contrary. It’s what you’ve been doing for 2 years, so why stop now?

As for players/coaches versus management, I’ll tell you what – the next time I speculate as to a player or coach’s motives without explicitly acknowledging that I am speculating, let me know. I never accused Woody of coaching scared. I accused him of coaching predictably and not making adjustments. And even on the not making adjustments bit, I repeatedly said that it’s possible that Woody had tried to make adjustments but that the players had tuned him out. In any case, I never speculated as to WHY he did the things he did. As far as I can remember, I confined my criticism to what I observed of the team on the court, and didn’t speculate as to the underlying reasons why he did things the way he did. That’s a bright line that I try not to cross.

Same with Josh. Again, as far as I can remember, I never called the man stupid. I often criticized the way he played the game, but didn’t diagnose precisely what was causing his shortcomings or how he could fix it. When he was struggling with his free throws, I said it didn’t appear to be mechanical, and if Mark Price agreed, then his next step should be to see a sports psychologist. I didn’t pretend to know what was causing Josh’s issues at the line and I certainly didn’t draw general conclusions about Josh as a player or a person. I just said he should talk to people who might be able to figure it out.

It’s a fine line, but I don’t think it’s arbitrary. If I see it with my own eyes, I feel comfortable talking about it. I don’t see what goes on in boardrooms or at negotiating tables. The only people who do are team officials and players’ agents. Not even beat writers and players really know that stuff; all they have to go on are what other people, all with their own agendas, tell them. You can ask MC and Sekou and they’ll tell you the same thing (I know because both have told me that – every sportswriter has been burned a few times by an agent or team “source” who fed them misinformation to advance their own agenda). So unless I talk to someone who was there (which I can only do about 2-3 things that involve the Hawks’ front office), I don’t feel it fair to criticize people on those grounds. And when I see someone who does criticize people on those grounds, the devil’s advocate in me comes out because if I were in ASG’s shoes, I’d be pissed that people who have never seen my team’s balance sheets or been at a negotiating table were acting as if they knew why certain things did or didn’t happen.

I’ll try to be more civil in my criticisms of you in the future. I’ll be even more civil if you, Astro, and Melvin can simply admit that 1) what the balance sheet looks like and what gets said at the negotiating table are essential in making proper decisions on constructing an NBA roster; 2) you don’t know what goes on in the Hawks’ balance sheets or at the negotiating tables; 3) that your assertions thus are based on very limited information.

niremetal

August 4th, 2010
3:34 pm

“I don’t think I ever got a formal offer,” Childress said, trying to recall all the back and forth that has gone on since the summer of 2008. “All I wanted was a deal. I just wanted to feel like they wanted me to be a part of their team. And I never had that feeling. It was always, ‘we’ll deal with him when we have time.’ Personally and professionally, I felt like I acquitted myself the right way. I came to work and did what was asked of me. and then when it came time to negotiate, it was like ‘we’ll get to him whenever we can.’ At least that was the attitude that was conveyed to me.”

Just sayin.

niremetal

August 4th, 2010
3:39 pm

Ironically, Rod, the same source that I had for the Childress stuff confirmed something that you’ve said about Marvin. Sadly, I can’t really say much about it because my source’s cover could easily be blown. But you can have satisfaction in knowing that I die a little inside every time I remember that one of your rants about Marvin actually turned out to be spot on.

westurd

August 4th, 2010
3:39 pm

I wih I were excited to see this team hit the floor this season, but as of now it just feels like a continuation from last season…..

I’m so bummed with ASG….and tell me this: Why the F would Al stick around after this season. As much as it will hurt, Al will be leaving us.

I blame this on Joe and ASG……….I’m bitter

Big Ray

August 4th, 2010
4:20 pm

What is this, UFC Basketball blogging?

Big Ray

August 4th, 2010
4:21 pm

niremetal

August 4th, 2010
4:22 pm

It’s August, Ray. What the heck do you expect? :twisted:

kwooden1

August 4th, 2010
4:37 pm

westurd I’m looking forward to seeing the new offensive and a more consistant man-on-man defensive. We’re still a jumpshooting team, which is more of the problem than just the size itself. But, hope that the guys learned the kind of execution they need to bring every night (especially in the Playoffs) to be successful. I’m also looking forward to seeing how far Teague can grow in one season.

I’m also disappointed about the summer, but I also didn’t really expect some big moves to happen.

GO HAWKS!

Astro Joe

August 4th, 2010
4:47 pm

Yeah, I’m looking forward to the man-to-man defense also. I’m sure that the previous coach was making an awful decision by not having Bibby and Jamal play man-to-man defense. No doubt that they will be much improved just because their new coach demands it. Once that screen comes, I’m sure that Bibby will appear Billups-like as he physically defeats the offensive scheme and disrupts the play. It is oh so simple, only our idiot former coach would make guarding the PGs in this league appear challenging for someone like Bibby (or Jamal with the lousy SGs that flood the league). Who cares about installing schemes to match the personnel, demand the personnel to adapt to your scheme. Guard your man or else… no need to add complexity to something as simple and easy as guarding an NBA backcourt player.

Astro Joe

August 4th, 2010
4:50 pm

Ray you should have been here during the singing session earlier. I tried to get the fellows to sing a little “Id Like to Teach the World to Sing” but then doc threw a spit-ball at nire and war broke out again. But at least we got in a good rendition of Kumbayah before the wheels fell off.

Speaking of which, come on guys, join with me…

The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round…

What’s wrong, you don’t know the words?

Rod from College Park

August 4th, 2010
5:00 pm

“Ironically, Rod, the same source that I had for the Childress stuff confirmed something that you’ve said about Marvin. Sadly, I can’t really say much about it because my source’s cover could easily be blown. But you can have satisfaction in knowing that I die a little inside every time I remember that one of your rants about Marvin actually turned out to be spot on.”

Wow. I guess i should say thanks. Hopefully he will prove me wrong and turn into a great player in this motion offense,as so many people seem to think (LOL). I will continue with my initial phrase that I won’t be holding my breath.

doc

August 4th, 2010
5:03 pm

Yeah big ray we are here to talk management

Wait did somebody say management

Slowly I turned … Step by step…