In this together

53 wins.

That’s been the answer for any question or challenge in regard to what the Atlanta Hawks tend to do in games. It has worked for 53 wins. Should any of us be surprised at what we saw in game 5, or just disappointed? You would probably get a different answer from fans as you would from players, or coaches for that matter. The problem, of course, is that what has gotten the Hawks to 53 wins in the regular season, does not seem to be getting them to 4 wins in a playoff series. Or maybe I’ve got that backwards. It’s what they’ve managed to overcome for 53 wins that is hurting them now. That “what” seems to be a myriad of things. The usual buzz words are floating around- “energy”, “focus”, “execution”, and a host of others.

Cliches, all of them.

Yet in the midst of our doldrums, we have to remember that the series is not yet over, even if it feels like it is. Not officially, anyway.

Piecing it Together

After winning the first two games, it’s like the Hawks thought they had it all in the bag. Only, that doesn’t make sense when considering how they’ve played on the road this year. They proved they could lose in anybody’s arena, at any time. So they came out flat and disinterested for the most part in game 3, and got a royal spanking for their efforts (or lack thereof). Then came game 4, where they remembered to bring the energy and effort, but forgot execution. Fast forward to game 5, and the execution is there, but not for the entire game, much less when it counted most.

Atlanta just cannot seem to bring the total game all at once. In the regular season, a 3 game losing streak isn’t all that bad. In the regular season, you have time to bounce back. The playoffs are different. Lose three games, and you are on the brink. Lose three in a row and you are all but finished. Only the most mentally tough teams seem to be able to manage this, and even then, not many of them do. Are the Hawks that tough? A big question, and one that may already have the inevitable answer. Only one thing is certain in this series right now, and that would be that the Milwaukee Bucks’ toughness can’t be questioned. Down 0-2, the Bucks stormed back and took the fight right to the Hawks’ doorfront. Then they kicked the door down. Now the fight goes back on the road, in front of a raucous crowd that will cheer every good Bucks play, and jeer every Hawks gaffe. Oh, and they’ll probably have some very special signs made up for Josh Smith.

 

Against all Odds

Remember when this was supposed to be Milwaukee, what with the loss of center Andrew Bogut? The shoe is now on the other foot. Now it’s Atlanta that is trying to beat the odds. The odds that they can win on the road. That they can come from behind, late in a playoff series. They they can play the total game from start to finish.

You would think that an inspiring road win (if it happens) may lead to a triumphant return home, where the Hawks could close things out and head to the second round. But even if that does happen, will it be all that triumphant? Will the Hawks be the better for it? Or will they be tired, disillusioned, and ready prey for the Orlando Magic, possibly even succumbing to a second straight round 2 sweep? Maybe we’re just entertaining dark thoughts, rather than showing faith in our team, as Bucks fans showed faith in theirs (ok, maybe it’s just me with the dark thoughts here).

How about the team? What would their perspective be? Do they have enough moxie, enough heart, to want vengeance? Surely they want to prove that capturing the third seed in the playoffs was more about what they earned and gained, rather than what the Boston Celtics lost. Clearly they would want to show that they are indeed improved, and that 53 regular season wins was no aberration. Having missed the opportunity to do this in games 3, 4, and 5, the Hawks now find themselves with all of this and more on the line in game 6.

A tough lesson before moving on, or a swan song of a supposed bird of prey? Which do we get to see on Friday?

Whichever it is, the Hawks are in this together. Maligned coach, soon-to-be free agent star, and all.

 

 

232 comments Add your comment

Hawk Str8Talk

April 29th, 2010
1:42 am

The thing I’m not sure you realize, but they aren’t in it together. Pieces of this have been apparent all year. The Hawks are talented – talent can breed wins over teams that aren’t as talented as you, but when you have to match cerebral with that talent (which is the essence of playoff success) – the Hawks haven’t shown a good account of themselves at all. And therefore, you have 2-3 going back to Milwaukee. It’s the psychology of the coach, players, management, and even fans who fail to realize what prepares you for playoff success. It’s not one defensive strategy, it’s not one playing rotation, it’s not isolation plays to win games in the 4th quarter…those things have been biting the Hawks for 2 years now. It’s why I’ve said for 2 years on my blog that we are sentenced to 2nd round basketball at BEST. That’s what we are faced with right now…even if we win the series, that won’t change. Wish I believed it would…www.hawkstr8talk.com

Big Ray

April 29th, 2010
2:05 am

hawkstr8talk

“The thing I’m not sure you realize, but they aren’t in it together. Pieces of this have been apparent all year.”

I realize far more than I write. However, I don’t like to blog with a conclusive mindset, regardless of what my thoughts are.

To address the second part of that statement, I’d actually argue that evidence of a “lack of togetherness” was apparent LAST year, and only became moreso as some roles expanded and grew, others were added, some diminished, and some failed to adjust accordingly. This was coming to a head for some time, but it actually took some growth and maturity from certain players for it to really happen. I think you know partially where I’m going with this, and I tell you- it was becoming obvious LAST year, involving a couple of players for certain. We can get into that later.

Having said all of that, the Hawks are in this together. What I mean by that is simple: they will win or lose as a team and coaching staff. Maligned as Woodson is, he wins or loses with this team until this year is over for the Hawks. Same for Joe Johnson, who will not be a free agent until the Hawks are done on the hardwood.

After that, all bets are off. D-Day isn’t here yet, but it’s fast approaching. Might be just a game away (unofficially, but you get the point).

Big Ray

April 29th, 2010
2:08 am

As for the bulk of your post, I agree with several parts, and would even seek to expound upon it. Of course, what you’ve just said has been hashed over by many here, and for quite some time. Longer than 2 years for some…

This summer promises more change (and possibly more than we anticipate…or possibly less), and that may be true regardless of whether we can get out of the first round.

vava74

April 29th, 2010
3:14 am

Charley Rosen @ msn.foxsports.com:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/Atlanta-Hawks-have-talent-but-Milwaukee-Bucks-have-guts

Enjoy everyone! I particularly love the last sentence!

[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Michael Cunningham. Michael Cunningham said: AJC's fan blog: In this together http://bit.ly/dfvaw9 [...]

Big Ray

April 29th, 2010
4:07 am

Vava ,

Definitely a loaded article. Of course, that is what Mr. Rosen gets paid for…

Big Daddy

April 29th, 2010
6:07 am

Big Ray, I will always be a Hawks supporter as I have with all Atlanta teams through the good times and the bad. So, no matter what, I will be cheering them on next year to do the best they can.

That said, I am so disappointed like many of the post from the other columnist and people commenting. Yes, it would be nice to have the Hawks play well in Milwaukee and come back here and win the series. However, given that they have had only one win in 10 tries on the road does not speak well of that possibility. Jamaal would have to have the game of his life and he has been mostly missing during this series, only hitting 4 shots last night “at home”. Joe would have be have his usual good game and Marvin, Josh and Al would have to stop the drive on Jennings by collasping in the paint any time it looks like he is thinking of making a drive. Finally, Mike Bibby, of all people would have to be the hero of the game. Why Mike? Because he has the most playoff experience and is supposed to be the floor general and direct the offense. We brought him here to help with the offense and he did that. Woody pulls him too quickly since we got Jamaal and with Jamall not producing we need him to leave Mike in and let him run the offense.

A lot of people would say Mike is too slow to guard the other teams guards. Adjustments can be made for that. I lived in Charlotte for several years when Mugsy Bogues was the point guard and they made adjustments anytime someone tried to post him up so that he was not a liability on defense. It can be done, but it takes the coaches to recognize it and make the proper changes.

That gets to the crux of the problem. I have been a Woody supporter and have refrain from bashing him. I have made comments that the coaching staff will have to make adjustments and changes on the fly to be successful and I have not seen that. What I have seen is that we get outcoached too many times. Even if the players don’t execute, in the end, it will be the coaches who take the fall for not making, motivating or coercing them into following their plan. I believe Woody and the coaches he has assembled may have reach the peak of their capabilities. I say that with the understanding of how far the team has come with Woody at the helm. Yet, in a time where innovation seems to be necessary, The coaching staff has not made the adjustments and changes necessary. And, the players have not been able to hit their shots down the stretch.

We are playing a team that is without two of their primary starters, one of them an All-Star Center and they have competed against a superiorily talented team. That is coaching. Imagine where we would be if they had Bogut and Redd with Jennings coming off the bench and we had lost Al and Bibby and had to start Zaza and Rook. We would probably be talking, wait until next year right now.

I hope the Hawks actually show up in Milwaukee. This has got to have the players down. But they get paid a lot of money to be professionals and compete. It is the direction they are given that makes the difference between how well they play as a team that makes the difference. In that regard, I hope the coaches show up as well.

O'Brien

April 29th, 2010
7:18 am

Your honor, I present Exhibit A:

Date/Opponent/Hawks 4th quarter points/Result

11/6/2009 Bobcats 14 (L)
11/26/2009 Magic 11 (L)
12/5/2009 Mavericks 16 (W)
12/29/2009 Cavs 10 (L)
12/30/2009 Cavs 16 (L)
1/4/2010 Miami 17 (L)
1/18/2010 Thunder 16 (L)
1/27/2010 Spurs 16 (L)
2/10/2010 Miami 12 (L)
2/19/2010 Suns 14 (L)
2/21/2010 Warriors 14 (L)
3/6/2010 Miami 17 (L)
3/24/2010 Orlando 18 (W)
4/3/2010 Pistons 17 (W)
4/7/2010 Pistons 16 (L)

That is 15 games this year in which the Hawks scored 18 points or less in the fourth quarter. Their record in those games? 3-12.

Whenever we mentioned these kinds of droughts, some people were quick to point out how the Hawks were 4th in offensive efficiency. Well, where has that offensive efficiency gotten us?

On the brink of elimination to a team with a first year HC, a rookie PG, and missing its 2 best players. (By the way, which Bucks starter would start for the Hawks right now?).

From Rosen: “And exactly how did the Hawks try to manifest their spectacular advantage in talent? By running an endless series of isolations — 42 to be exact, which accounted for nearly half of their 83 total shots, which produced 40 points”….”Compare this situation with the Bucks, who ran 17 isos that generated only nine points”.

When the going gets tough, people resort to what they know. When the game gets tight, the Hawks go back to what they do, which makes me think is also what they practice. And when something happens that often, the HC ultimately takes the blame (although JJ and Crawford stunk it up tonight).

O'Brien

April 29th, 2010
7:25 am

* Correction: This is actually Skiles’ second year as HC of the Bucks.

Don't give up

April 29th, 2010
8:44 am

were still going to win

Milwaukee Iron

April 29th, 2010
8:56 am

From the start the Hawks thought the Bucks as nothing more than a bump in the road on their way to the second round, talent does not always equal wins, throw in the disrespect they show to the city, get the fans fired up and here is what you get, 3-2 Bucks lead, and you are one game from elimination. FEAR THE DEER!!

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
9:17 am

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
9:22 am

OB, let’s do the math… 15 quarters against a base of 82 x 4 quarters or 15/328 = 5%. So for a normal day worker like myself, that would be akin to taking my 52 weeks and focusing on less than 3 weeks.

niremetal

April 29th, 2010
9:28 am

Astro,

Congratulations. That is the most astoundingly stupid defense of Woody that I have ever seen.

doc

April 29th, 2010
9:38 am

aj EVERYTHING pointed to the playoffs. either you are ready or you arent. we werent and arent ready because we have only one way to play. simple math. woody hasnt gotten it done and we have al seen this coming. ummm we look like a deer in the headlights. heh heh we got slammed by a running deer instead, broadside and it has damaged the vehicle. i wonder if it is totaled?

never liked the bibby trade for what it cost, essentially chills and liked aj. seems sekou sorta said the same thing. chills was a go getter and a no quitter. kind of a glue guy that got no respect from his elders. probably because he was a whole lot smarter than them and the coach. stanford and the world does that to a guy.

MannyT

April 29th, 2010
9:48 am

Astro,

You minimize the 3 weeks when your boss is shadowing you to do your eval for all the weeks that you did good work, but no one was there.

The Sekou interview was great. Thanks for posting the link. He provides some brutal honesty. It’s not surprising, but it is rarely said.

While it would be easy to tear into Woody after this, until the season is over, I’ll just go with the simple view. I may not like his way, but if he wins, I have to keep my mouth shut. He’s got some work to do on Friday and hopefully on Sunday.

BWAF

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
9:52 am

nire, thank you.

MannyT

April 29th, 2010
9:52 am

doc

How can you put the Chills departure on the Bibby trade? I need you to connect those dots for me.

I can see putting it on Sund’s methods, but not on the Bibby trade. I doubt Sund pays Chills what he wanted if Bibby was never a Hawk. Then again, if Bibby’s never a Hawk, I am not sure that Woody gets that 2nd contract. Not sure that Sund is here either.

I do agree about Chills being a glue guy. Most good teams have one or two.

BWAF

vava74

April 29th, 2010
9:56 am

Sekou’s interview was awesome.

Astro, thank you for posting it, in particular because it backs all my thoughts about the Hawks and goes against yours.

The fact that only Zaza and RandMo attended the handing over of the 6th man award was for me a huge shock. I thought that they were a tight knit group.

Maybe they were closer and the recent loses have caused this breakup, however, this is inexcusable.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
10:05 am

doc, I obviously was a big Chill fan from day one… it was clear that he brought both tangible AND intangible benefits to this team. Ball movement was less of an issue when Chill was here in part because he moved without the ball and created easy scoring opportunities. Too many fans focused on his shooting stroke instead of his 55%+ FG% and double-digit production off the bench. I didn’t see the value in Anthony Johnson that Sekou referenced, but obviously, Sekou was in a great position to see the dynamic back in those days. I kind of expected him to mention Ty Lue, but he went with AJ.

I guess I’ve written way too many performance evaluations and have attended far too many HR-sponsored courses about employee evaluations to bring a fan’s sensibility to the discussion. I’m all for judging a coach based on playoff performance… just can’t quite see using arbitrary piece parts that equal a 5% sample to say if a guy is good or not.

If Sund chooses to let Woody walk because of poor playoff performance, I’m good with that. One could easily argue that our best playoff performance happened 3 playoff series ago against Boston. And judging an employee during the company’s most important period is absolutely fair. But I wouldn’t use a random sample of 5% during regular season games to say that he is not the right coach.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
10:13 am

Vava, it really doesn’t. I’m all for using the playoffs to evaluate a coach, just don’t support some of the negative comments made during a 53-win regular season. And I have always believed that this team lacks player leadership… I have said that ad nauseum. And I truly believe that if we hire Red Auerbach from the grave and we don’t have a player who can lead his peers, that our ceiling will remain lower than the talent suggests.

NBA history shows a clear relationship between talent, quality coaching AND player leadership. One can choose to focus on any one of those aspects, but the reality is that all 3 are required to truly “do something special”.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
10:21 am

I think RandMo thought that there would be some food at the SMOY ceremony. In the pictures, it looked like he came with fork in hand.

Melvin

April 29th, 2010
10:26 am

Astro,

Nice link. Some great insight by Sekou. Charles Barkley interview was good as well. I like some of the points that he brought up in reference to Joe Johnson. This summer will be interesting from management down to the players. I think a shakeup is coming.

O'Brien

April 29th, 2010
10:38 am

doc,

I’m with Manny. I dont think getting Bibby had anything to do with Chills. Sund never thought that highly of Chills, and even implied he was a utility player.

I also get the impression that although Woody had him on the court at the end of games and gave him PT, Chills wanted to be the starter. If I’m mis-remembering let me know, but Chills made a comment along the lines of once Woody has a certain role for you, he didnt think Woody was flexible enough at changing your role.

AJ,

I am not using a random sample of 5% to suggest that he is not the right coach, or that he is not good at his job. But when that behavior is repeated at the most crucial time of the season, then it becomes an issue.

I will try an analogy (I dont know if I can pull it off though).

Imagine if the CEO is visiting your branch, and your boss has emphasized to you and your team, how important it is, because the CEO will be observing your behavior, and will use it to make a decision on your future employment with the company.

During his visit, he notices an unfavorable type of behavior. And when he reviews your file, he noticed that you behave the same way 5% of the time. Should he ignore that 5% sample, combined with his own personal observations, along with the stockholders observations?

I agree that its not all on the coach. But as we know, we can’t replace all the team members, so the easiest thing to do is to replace the coach, and make some tweaks to the roster.

I enjoyed the Sekou interview. He said when he asked Woody about adjustments, Woody said ‘we are not going to change what we do. Guys just need to play harder’. Typical Woody response.

From Sekou Smith on nba.com’

“We’ll just have to go up to Milwaukee and see what we can come up with,” Johnson said.

Sekou writes ‘Does that sound like a plan to you? Didn’t think so’.

Good stuff Sekou.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
10:47 am

OB, your example sounds more like a playoffs than a sample of the regular season. Your regular season example doesn’t involve “life/death” situations… as evidenced by their 3rd seeding. I don’t equate a Janaury game against the Thunder to a visit from the CEO.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
10:51 am

Sorry, OB, I re-read your analogy… if my 5% is bad compared to top 3 performance on the other 95%, then while he may say something, I actually expect him to hand over some stock options because chances are, I’m bringingin more revenue thanmost of my co-workers. Because my guess is that CEO had a bad 5% when he was coming up through the ranks also.

Lastly, what would be considered an acceptable rate if 5% is bad? 2%? 1%? Seems like that would be good to know when making an evaluation, right?

niremetal

April 29th, 2010
11:27 am

Astro,

I can’t believe you’re still pushing that load of manure. Your analogies from the world of 9-5 jobs are, as usual, completely off-base. In the NBA, the fourth quarter is the time of game where the most coaching has to be done. Players play harder then than they do during the rest of the game. Dealing with fouls and clock management makes tactics much, much more important. Each possession is contested and strategized more carefully. So it’s absolutely idiotic to pretend that all parts of the game are created equal.

niremetal

April 29th, 2010
11:29 am

Seriously, you sound like an idiot every time you start talking about your job as if it is comparable to coaching or playing in the NBA.

vava74

April 29th, 2010
12:17 pm

nire,

a bit on the rough side, but well put anyhow.

First, we are not talking about a random 5% sample, but a sample of “stress situations” which is when you see what people are made of.

This sample alone allowed a pretty good extrapolation on how the Hawks would fare in the playoffs.

The sample is SIGNIFICANT and carried a very simple lesson: Woody does not know enough coaching to guide a team when things get tough.

If you want a stupid work/daily life analogy, I’ll put it this way:

Imagine that the Hawks are firemen. During the year, in normal daily life situations, they are fairly competent: take cats from tree tops, break an occasional door, put away small fires and an occasional big but non complicated fire here and there.

However, in a real nasty fire situation, they lack the knowledge to react properly under pressure. Have poor coordination and only know how to use water to put away “solids’ based” fires.

When they face a fire where there is an oily and liquid element (and you cannot use water), they continue to use water because their chief says: it worked with the other fires, it must work with this one as well! Just put more effort in it and get more hoses flowing.

What happens? Water (switching D) spreads the burning oil and they all die.

That’s the Hawks!

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
12:18 pm

nire, again, I thank you.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
12:27 pm

Does anyone think that with some research, we could find all kind of good samples and data related to a 53-win season? I certainly won;t put forth the effort, not after being a .400 playoff team right now… but that’s the problem with a 5% sample against a team that lost 35% of their games. No doubt, one could find problems under the microscope… I’m fairly certain that the Lakers found issues in their regular season losses last year also.

And regardling last night specifically (in relation to lack of 4th quarter offensive execution/strategy), I’m of the opinion that giving up 30 points means far more than scoring 18. If we lost a 9 point lead with 4 minutes left and we lost the game by 4, doesn’t that equate to a 39 point pace for the Bucks on a per quarter bases? Yet, we’re using poor 4th quarter offense to discuss last night’s loss?

Lastly, I will most certainly defend a 53-win team… I just can’t defend a .400 playoff team.

niremetal

April 29th, 2010
12:31 pm

The problem, AJ, is that it was predictable that the team’s collapses in the 4th quarter would repeat themselves in the playoffs. During the regular season, teams only really play their hardest when it’s close and late. During the playoffs, teams play that way for most-to-all of every game. So how you perform in the 4th quarter during close regular season games has particularly good predictive value for the playoffs.

It’s not like anyone around here ever said that or anything. Oh wait – people did? Several people? Repeatedly?

Nevermind.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
12:33 pm

Vava, I’m not saying that 4th quarter issues aren’t a problem… I just wouldn’t give it as much weight as others. If your fire chief showed no signs of learning and getting better with fighting different types of fire, i’d be concerned. But I persoanlly saw this team become much beter from the beginning to the end. It doesn’t mean that we are where we’d like to be, but there was growth. And unlike you, I do believe that in some cases (if not many), the chief is telling them to throw sand on the fire and some of the fire fighters are throwing water regardless… or they throw the sand but miss the fire.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
12:37 pm

nire, but are there no examples of good late and close execution or have we simply not taken the time to search for them? I know I haven’t. Maybe there aren’t, although one would think that a 53-win team with some exciting last minute victories must have executed in late/close games at some point. But maybe not.

An above .500 record against winning teams is another good predictor. I’d venture that there are others.

Let’s not sit here and act like we’re debating an exhasutive set of data for and against the issue. Wer’re debating a one-sided view.

niremetal

April 29th, 2010
12:50 pm

AJ,

O’Brien posted the number of times the Hawks scored 18 or fewer points in the 4th quarter. Why don’t you go back and look to see how many times we held opponents to 18 or fewer points in the 4th quarter, hmmm?

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
12:58 pm

nire, I have ZERO desire to defend a 53-win team after a decade of futility. Not to mention that the best way to conduct any analyses would be to benchmark our team’sperformance against the best in class. And I most certainly have no desire to spend my time analyzing our 4th quarter woes/successes against the Lakers, Celtics, Spurs and other recent title winners.

And who defined 18 as the standard of excellence anyway?

Just admit that we’re debating using an imperfect set of data and assumptions. While discussing the warts of a team that won 65% of their games. Pardon me if I’m not interested in opening an Excel spreadsheet to have that debate.

niremetal

April 29th, 2010
1:07 pm

Admit that people have been saying all season that we have no offensive gameplan beyond ISO-ball, that it caused problems before, and that it’s causing more important problems now.

But you won’t. Whatever, AJ. You have an incredible talent for talking out of your butt, changing the subject, and addressing caricatures of other people’s arguments instead of actual arguments. Like Woody, you’ll never change.

doc

April 29th, 2010
1:09 pm

15 mil went ti bibby, it was destined they werent going to pay chills legit money for what he delivered.

aj and manny t, simple math, when the trade was made i even commented to that effect. allocation of funds within the cap manny t, how could they spend more on chills even if they wanted to on a budget? aj, where and why did roachy go and who did we get in return on the braves? compare that with chills and mo …. 8 mil vs 2 mil almost exact the same costs, no?

look backs to the wall, let us see where it gets us, only dont come up with comments like that aj. the team had to be ready to go in the playoffs, period. it doesnt matter what they did during the season, everyone knows it if they lay an egg aj, maybe except an apologist like you. again let us see what happens as manny t says. if he escapes then i like houdini as my coach.

O'Brien

April 29th, 2010
1:11 pm

AJ,

I remember earlier in the year, we had a discussion that how the Hawks played against teams like the Knicks does not matter as much, because teams like the Knicks wont be in the playoffs.

However, those games in which we scored 18 points or less in the fourth, were against 10 different teams. Of those 10 teams, 8 of them made the playoffs. So to me, although it was only a 5% sample, the probability that we would do the same thing in the playoffs was higher because of how badly we executed against playoff teams during the regular season once the game gets tight.

That being said, Hawks have a chance to man up on Friday night, and win game 6. And I will be rooting for them all the way (even if that means Woody keeps his job).

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
1:18 pm

nire, by admitting that people around here have said that our offense is lacking is to assume that people around here are subject matter experts on the issue. Sure, I have read those arguments, I have also read arguments that the ASG are cheap. And we know that you refuse to accept that so do I need to accept the opinions that I don’t hold true just because of sheer volume?

You want me to admit that we are an iso-based offense? Is that what you’re looking for? I don’t think so because that argument is easily defeated. Do you want me to say that our late/close offense relies too heavily on iso, then yes, it does. But again, without knowing how often comparable plays are run for the best-in-class teams, it essentially leaves me judging without a standard. Have you ever judged anything without a standard? Of course not, you often use great websites to define the standard… so why should we deviate from that now?

If the argument is that late.close performance is an indicator of playoff success, I would say tha makes perfect sense to me. It’s certainly not the lone predictor but it is likely a very good one. Is it as good as defeating a team 2 of 3 times? I wouldn’t think so.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
1:20 pm

doc, go back and look, I’m not the one who brought regular season data into today’s discussion. I agree with you, that regular season is old news… but I’m not the one who brought it to today’s liar’s table meeting.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
1:22 pm

And how is it that I am “talking out of my butt” when I suggest the need for a baseline which is a frequently used tactic by you to invalidate opinions? Riddle me that nireman?

niremetal

April 29th, 2010
1:27 pm

I didn’t say you were talking out of your butt on this particular occasion, AJ. Just that it’s something you’ve shown a repeated talent for.

niremetal

April 29th, 2010
1:31 pm

And by the way – when I respond to people who say ASG is cheap, I actually do research first and find -the baseline. I don’t attack people for not providing a baseline and then call it a day. If I had just said “aha, but what do other teams spend?” and left it at that, I’d be like you. But I do more than that. I actually go out and post what other teams DO actually spend. Telling somebody they are looking at things out of context is pretty useless if you don’t provide an alternative context in which to view it.

doc

April 29th, 2010
1:35 pm

ob, maybe some of that was implied in the interview with sekou for the team and the coach.

anyway as ray asys he is a high draft pick we didnt get much milage out of, seems to be the way the asg operates.

doc

April 29th, 2010
2:03 pm

aj, good fodder for discussion. no problem with it at all. we are all disappointed expectations havent been met none more than the guys in the locker room that ran out of there before any interviews could be made for whatever reason. i really hope they pull it together and rally around ehtmselves because with fans booing that is all they have right now. should be interesting drama on friday night.

incidentally, as far as rosen, the bucks threw in some hard fouls and it was called good playoff basketball. zaza didnt seem to really do more than kurt did on several occasions with emphasis and zaza got ball as much as body. cheap shot it wasnt. sorry to see the refs call that one and defer in milwaukee in similar circumstances. just the same it had to be done.

i think we have reaped what we have sewn and that is what woody must realize. the nire try harder is the only response woody has even if it is the wrong thing i might add is the woody way. so it does not shock me that a team has done to us what the knicks did, the lowly knicks. the blueprint was there and the bucks were the perfect team to do it with a quick point guard to rattle our cages. but no, we are not going to have to change anything is the woody way. that is why i have lost interest in this team and am not choosing to watch live basketball this playoff season, something about discretionary spending.

Melvin

April 29th, 2010
2:05 pm

Not only are the Hawks players (and coaches) are at odds. Now the Hawks fans are at each others necks…..LOL. This team is driving all of us crazy and I wouldn’t be surprise if they take us on another emotional roller coaster tomorrow night and beat the Bucks…

niremetal

April 29th, 2010
2:13 pm

Melvin,

I’m seriously giving 50:50 odds on that game. Vegas currently has the Hawks as 2-point favorites.

O'Brien

April 29th, 2010
2:44 pm

I brought regular season stats to the table to establish a pattern of behavior, especially against playoff teams. I will add this, and then I’ll leave it alone.

The Hawks played 44 games against playoff teams (7 teams in the East, 8 in the West. For the record, I did not go through the schedule, but I assumed 2 games for each West team, and 4 games against the East teams). In 12 of those games, the Hawks failed to score more than 18 points.

Based on those ‘nimbers’, whenever the Hawks played a team that made the playoffs, they failed to score more than 18 fourth quarter points 27% of the time. Is that a better sample size then?

doc,

The Bucks got major contributions from their rookie PG, who is quick, but has a questionable shot selection. On the Hawks bench, you will find a rookie PG who is quick, but not a good shooter. And in the next round, Nelson is waiting (He went for 30+ in 2 of the games against the Bobcats).

Melvin

April 29th, 2010
4:00 pm

So much is made of Teague jumpshot but there are plenty point guards in this league that are effective without a reliable jumpshot. Rondo, Harris, Paul, Rose, Parker, Kidd just too name a few. Teague had 25pts and 15ast in his only games where he played 30+ mins. I’m not saying we should expect that type of performance from him every game but only to show he capable of being productive when getting a fair opportunity. Similiar to what Sekou is saying in his interview.

Did anybody else caught the graphic last night during the game where they showed the coaches who have COACHED UP their teams this year? Needless to say Woody was not on their list. McMillan, OKC coach, Sloan and Skiles may there list.

Melvin

April 29th, 2010
4:00 pm

Nire,

I wouldnt bet the rent money on the Hawks….

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
4:03 pm

OB, you mean Nelson exceeded his regular season performance against Felton and Augustin? So just being young, quick and utilized consistently during the regular season isn’t always enough to stop the opposing team’s PG? Say it ain’t so.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
4:07 pm

nire, just because one law firm has the resources to look under every rock doesn’t mean that the evidence they find refutes the lesser evidence of the less-resourced law firm. Or in my case (again), I;m not wasting my time searching for playoff success predictors that are baselined against best-in-class teams.

Y’all ain’t making me work on the blog too. Dammit!

Melvin

April 29th, 2010
4:18 pm

Astro,

You must admit that Sekou pretty much threw Woody under the bus…lol

doc

April 29th, 2010
4:18 pm

o’b we might be able to agree but what is the point on mentioning teague to me?

MannyT

April 29th, 2010
4:56 pm

@Melvin, I think the bloggers are often at each others necks. Most often in the summer, but it happens all year around when we are not on a major winning streak. You think Sekou’s opinions might have anything to do with his scoop about Woody’s departure that mysteriously departed a few years ago. Not a grudge thing, but a freedom from suppressed opinion as a national writer that might have not worked when he was the local beat writer.

@doc, yes there was money spent on Bibby, but the difference between the NBA and MLB are the trade rules. It’s easy to trade a baseball player for a goat, 3 bats, and a 2017 prospect. In the NBA, you have to have a little salary matching, which often leads to talent mismatches. Chills deal would have been the same year as Josh Smith’s and before Marvin. I think they could have fit it in under the luxury tax, but I don’t think it was appealing to Sund. After Chills left, he immediatly spent about $4 mil (total on Mo Evans & Flip Murray). If that had been Chills and a minimum deal, the difference was probably about 3 mil. That would have put the Hawks within a few dollars of the luxury tax.

My opinion, if BK were GM, Chills would still be here. However, I doubt the Crawford deal happens. Not sure what would have become of Bibby last summer.

Anyhow–One of the most interesting things about Friday’s game is that the Hawks are definitely the better team–on paper. I don’t recall the last time the Hawks were the better team on paper and had their backs aginst the wall. It will be historic or hysteric, depending on the outcome.

…and on an unrelated note, kudos to Marvin for having his best playoff game in the midst of all the chaos.

BWAF

O'Brien

April 29th, 2010
5:22 pm

doc,

I think I got my wires crossed up.

Big Ray

April 29th, 2010
5:25 pm

I seem to remember Rick Sund talking about acquiring Jamal Crawford, and how one of the things that made his acquisition so attractive is what Jamal was able to do in the 4th quarter. Well, we saw evidence of that all through the regular season.

We have yet to see it in the playoffs.

Big Ray

April 29th, 2010
5:28 pm

Melvin ,

Naw. Sekou just happened to notice Woody at the wheel of the wrecked bus. And he did what any self-respecting journalist would do. He pointed it out. ;)

Big Ray

April 29th, 2010
5:37 pm

Melvin ,

The jump shot thing continues to elude me as well. Oh, don’t get me wrong, I understand that Teague very badly needs to work on his jumper. But so many times I’ve heard about his jumper and his defense, and how horrible he is at both, and somehow this is an explanation (often times the ONLY explanation) for why he hasn’t gotten many minutes.

Yet we watch a smarter coach with a playoff team play a rookie pg who shot 37% from the season. This kid gets the majority of his scores by using his quickness to get to the basket. He gets lost on defense as much as any other rookie (unless of course, you want to tell me he has shut his counterparts down throughout the season, and the playoffs as well). But he does get steals. Sound familiar?

I never called for Teague to start, but would even 15 mpg have killed us? If playing him more in a few more games made us a better team but actually did contribute to losing a few more regular season games (and I’m still not sure it would have) have been worth the cost? I think so, in a series where we can’t stop a rookie pg who is quicker than anybody on our roster (except Teague), yet has a streaky, unreliable jumper, and is not defensive dynamo (though he does often give the effort).

How many games did Jennings shoot the Bucks out of, as Ridnour had to come off the bench and supplant him, restoring order.

Crystal ball never has worked, but I could see Teague improving over time on the court. Eh…we’ll just have to wait until next year. Meanwhile, I hope he works hard over the summer…

MannyT

April 29th, 2010
5:48 pm

@Ray, so the car wreck in Milwaukee was more of a literal thing for the Hawks. ;-)

As for team chemistry, seems that Zaza & RandMo didn’t get the memo that they are 13 armies of one and not one army of 13 when they went to see Jamal get his award.

I guess the playoffs show that all differences are not good ones. Jamal needs to step up.

It was interesting to see that Lorenzen Wright left his mark on the team as they were so creative as to put popcorn in Teague’s car. :roll: At least mix it up a little bit and get those packing peanuts…no oil/butter in the ride.

BWAF

doc

April 29th, 2010
7:05 pm

and where is the leadership of bibby lately or last night when jj fouled out. wasnt he the answer to the problem of ball movement, overall direction and the guy who could call out his teammates when necessary? where has bibby gone except to show some flash early in games to not be heard from.

glad to know rand mo is still around, havent heard his name in a long time.

zaza wanted to make a major contribution as a second unit this year, guess woody didnt quite see it that way. seems like essentially we are playing a 6 man rotation and they are using a 9 man rotation with their two all stars injured. tell me what is wrong here and am i missing something?

manny t my point on bibby is we took on a huge amount of salary and got rid of salary that was expiring anyway, no? that limited what we could ultimately offer chills and maybe find a point guard on the market as well that year all within a budget of 15 mil that bibby cost us, no? that would have still kept us under the cap. yes, maybe we dont get crawford this year and get stackhouse instead and have a reliable point guard that is a leader a very flexible 6th man in chills and maybe one other player. we also wouldnt have 6 mil locked up for 2 more years in bibby whose wheels came off before he got here. we backed into that thing with the collapse of the pacers two years ago if memory serves me. not sure we wouldnt have done as well with a j as he looked pretty good when given the chance to drive the magic bus last year until his coach made the mistake to bench him. bibby was hurting bad after he came for several games and not at full speed. not sure why folks think his limping around made us that much better as our overall per cent win rate didnt improve that much with him. just saying. old history i know but it has ham strung us now and in the future unless bibby gets some of your magic beans.

doc

April 29th, 2010
7:20 pm

one other thing, i dont know it if it is true but i quit listening to woody a long time ago. maybe his team hasnt quit on him as i have been prone to say and note. unfortunately, i think they have stopped listening to him and that is just as disastrous.

now, did woody go to the 6th man award presentation?

O'Brien

April 29th, 2010
7:44 pm

Doc,

I liked the bibby trade because it increased our chances of making the playoffs.

However, I was not a fan of resigning bibby last offseason (especially if we are giving him a third year guarantee).

Interestingly enough, if it wasn’t for the Pacers and bibby, woody might not have gotten that 2 year extension.

My question is, for a team that has had the same starting lineup for almost 3 seasons, the same HC for the last 6 years (Josh, Marvin jj, and zaza have also been here a while), so why do we look so disorganized and lost at times?

EVOLONE

April 29th, 2010
7:51 pm

Josh Smith and the rest of the Hawks need to know that there is something to do in Milwaukee it called…………………………………………….WIN……..try that out for a change.

niremetal

April 29th, 2010
7:52 pm

Ray,

Of course, in order for playing Teague to make any difference at ALL defensively, we’d have to stop switching. And we know how likely THAT is…

doc

April 29th, 2010
8:10 pm

good point nire. we want folks to switch right?

o’b i say we get there anyway without bibby. it wasnt a rush of wins that got us there is my point.

doc

April 29th, 2010
8:20 pm

since this was just posted by MC i wasnt plagerizing him earlier but it seems he is making a similar point about bibby.

from MC:

“The Hawks would be a different team with someone like ‘Zo. Mike Bibby certainly has the pedigree to be that guy but his role has diminished and he may not have the personality for it. Joe Johnson is the team’s star but he seems to be a quiet type. Smoove, Al, and Marvin are too young still.”

sadly bibby is not exuding that brashness that he brought. not sure why he has delegated himself to a lesser role for the team of being the guy who has been there and shake things up like he did in boston but with his teammates but he hasnt. he looks disinterested right now like he wants the season to be over and that may be where this whole yeam is that has folded right in front of our eyes. at this stage you have to be ready to do anything to keep the season alive. i just dont see it in these guys, sorry just dont.

where is the swagger?

doc

April 29th, 2010
9:05 pm

nire, about that cheap owner label. didnt we have the lowest payroll in the league for four years until they opted to pay up when bibby came in? werent we at the bottom of the expenditure list and hovering around minmum cap? we really had to sign jj to meet payroll obligations is the way i saw it so there wasnt a debacle like signing kenny anderson and one of the over the hill barry brothers to meet payroll. we had to spend that money and what better way, if he hadnt been signed after the cba where things happened fst we would have had nothing but a bloated payroll for who we would have had to sign. i guess four years att he bottom of the payroll list did seem to be cheap to me but of course it was part of the plan as they brought in draftee after draftee say instead of holding on to some of the bigs that slipped through our hands or the occasional sheed who was sent away for nothing or the delk debacle where he was paid to not play to fill payroll. maybe you can analyze it otherwise but they were the cheapest owners around for four years werent they?

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
9:06 pm

Melvin, Sekou most certainly did not hold back and he most definitely threw Woody under the bus, the RV and the tractor traylor (I wonder how much he weighs these days).

But, I hope y’all also heard him say “they don’t hold each other accountable”… and he was referencing the players. As I said earlier today, if we hire Red Auerbach but continue to miss the leader(s) that ensure peer accountability, our success will not likely match the team’s talent. Let’s see if Sund makes an attempt to address that gaping hole this summer.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
9:25 pm

Mike Woodson

April 29th, 2010
9:28 pm

Okay guys, okay! Yes we are all in this together. But I have got one game to get this right. I know I said we only made one pass on offense last night, thats the play I called, yes I call plays, well at least one; you guys figured it out a long time ago, yes “Iso Joe”. After Joe fouled out I had to go to option 2 “Iso Jamal”. I know I usually blame the defense for our inability to hold a 9 point lead with 3:22 to play, but since we did not score from the 4 minute mark to the 19 second mark, I thought I would change up and blame the offense.

I finally admit it looks like the jig is up! I mean I tried to make them think I would be going to Philly, so they would offer me a contract, but I did not see us losing at home, since we won 37 games at the “Highlight Factory”. I want to thank my good friend Larry Brown for dropping that rumor. I was sure with a win I would have a contract before we went back to Milwaukee.

My hat is off to Scott Skiles for exposing my defensive flaws for all to see. I mean usually if you switch everything, the offensive guy is never able to just turn the corner, but if you get us tired from all the switching, run the shot clock down and end up with your guard on our bigs, you will have a clear advantage to go to the rim, while the other players stay home on there man; I really believe it sound because they are at the end of the shot clock. Also, switching your bigs off on Bibby at the end of the shot clock is also pretty cute Scott!

So this guy name Wink has been saying I should start my bench players, since they play with more urgency & fear of me than the “Fear of the Deer”. Seems some guy named Wilken won a championship in Seattle by starting his bench players. So I have one game, and nothing to lose. Maybe Teague can start to defend Jennings, really he has to be better then having Bibby, Horford or Josh chasing him. I think giving Marvin the assignment of shadowing Salmons, all over the court could limit his touches. I Jamal can also start too, since the season is over & he has won the sixth man award, we can put him on the floor to start. Now I need bigs, hmmm…I still start Horford, but at power forward on defense, save his fouls. I am start Collins at center, since he is old school enough to knock the crap out of Kurt Thomas, bang him early and often. Now I starting to see how this could work, we would have designated scorers, rebounders, and good defense from the start. Allow my regular starters to come off the bench to destroy their second unit. If I understand this correctly, I then put the best possible unit on the floor to close the deal in the 4th. That’s when I am suppose to earn my keep as a Coach….yeah I get it now! I demand they move the ball, I am the Coach. I tell Josh if he hoist that 3 pointer, with the game in the balance…I am yanking his a$$ out… don’t let Mo or Josh close out the game. Then I tell JJ it contract time…go get it! Everybody else crash the boards, now I can use Joe Smith with all his veteran savy to help take us home and reward Marvin for his efforts by resting him next to me. Going offense defense as the game dictates. Put Josh & Horford in the paint, where we have an obvious advantage. In put the directive, “No Layups”, why because I am the Coach, if only for this one game….yeah that’s the ticket. I can get my own sign “Fear the Crow”.

Honestly, though fans, I have had a good run from 13 to 53 wins, I apologize for the 1 for 10 record on the road during the playoffs, but after Friday maybe it will be 2 for 11. I promise not to call a time out, if just for a day I will act like Phil and let the team play. I now see we get nothing out of time outs and I promise win or lose, I want make excuses and blame players for not moving the ball, after all they are running the one play I taught them. If I can remember, I will try not to have Horford & Josh or Mo shooting 3’s with the game on the line. Oh yeah before I forget, I will remind the player to play with energy for 48 minutes like Skiles does, especially in the 4th quarter…oh oh yeah we will box out on the defensive end of the floor. If they get someone extremely hot during the game I will make sure to put Mario for at least a couple minutes or til all his fouls are used, since he is our best defender.

Got to go now to make sure all the players are in; I will do a double check on Josh to make sure he is not on the town. Wish us well tomorrow! If we lose see you when I see you!!! “Fear the Crow”

Coach Woodson

O'Brien

April 29th, 2010
9:29 pm

AJ,

Thats similar to what MC posted in his blog. That the Hawks need a player like Zo to tighten them up, because Woody will tell them one thing, and then 10 minutes later, their messing up again (which reinforces the point that we can’t put all the blame on Woody. Players still have to execute).

The interesting thing however, was that MC said he wrote that blog 2 weeks after he was assigned to the Hawks. So in 2 weeks, he could already see that the Hawks didnt have someone to hold the players accountable.

Melvin

April 29th, 2010
9:43 pm

Astro,

Maybe you should read MC blog. He talk about how this team need a player like Zo. A no nonsense vet that could lead the troops in the lockerroom and on the court. And I agree with him totally. Maybe we should sign Ben Wallace and Grant Hill this offseason. Two vets that could be vocal on and off the court and still have some game left in the tank….

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
9:48 pm

OB, I’d guess that any experienced beat writer who has covered a team sport can recognize a leadership void. Imagine if you were a beat writer and suddenly were transferred to cover the Kansas City Royals… wouldn’t one of the first things you’d try to learn is who is the team leader? And isn’t that the player you’d most like to build a relationship with so that you can write the best articles for your employer? I’m guessing that MC kept looking around and came up with blank stares and/or empty words.

doc

April 29th, 2010
9:51 pm

guys, again why not bibby for that role? he has cleaned up financially the last two years since he got here.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
9:53 pm

OB & Melvin, I’ll read it but surely you guys aren’t surprised to know about the void, are you? It’s certainly been mentioned by many bloggers. Watch any successful team during TOs and you’ll often see the team’s leader barking as much as the coach. Heaven knows, a guy like Chauncey Billups is constantly in his teammates’ ear (along with kenyon, and Melo is the team’s best player). And who have you seen do that for the Hawks over the past few years, and specifically in a big game/tight situation? Likely, no one.

Melvin

April 29th, 2010
9:56 pm

The Mavs were down 21pts to the Spurs in a closeout game and they coach have enough guts to play a rookie PG (25th pick) who spark the team to comeback and take a 1pt lead in the 3rd qtr. Mean while in Hawksland, our PG should get much playing time b/c his head coach did get playing time when he was a rookie….SMDH

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
9:57 pm

doc, you well know that leadership is less about someone’s contract and more about their personality and natural leadership skills. IMO, Bibby brought this team confidence and some swagger… but I don’t think that he has the personality nor desire to lead his peers.

Do y’all remember Sam Cassell… that’s the kind of guy I’m talking about.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
9:59 pm

Melvin, maybe in our close out game if we’re down by 25, Woody will use his “last resort” too. That’s essentially the scenario you just painted… desperate times require…

Melvin

April 29th, 2010
9:59 pm

Also, the Spurs headcoach (who has 4 rings) has his all star PG coming off the bench playing behind a 2nd year player who was drafted in 2nd round (38th).

Melvin

April 29th, 2010
10:04 pm

Astro,
We was down 20+ pts in game 3 and we didnt see Teague until late in the 4th qtr. So no, i don’t expect to see him play tommorrow nite unless the Hawks are up by 20+ with a few mins left in the 4th.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
10:10 pm

I thouht you mentioned a close out game, not when we’re up 2-0. Did I miss something?

O'Brien

April 29th, 2010
10:11 pm

AJ,

Us bloggers have had this discussion for years, because JJ is a lead by example guy, Horford and Josh are still young, Bibby is not that guy (and we havent seen anything from Joe Smith).

If us fans and the beat writer sees it, I wonder if Sund has also noticed it? And regardless of whether we resign Woody or not, Sund needs to sign a player to help fill that leadership void.

Melvin,

I think Grant Hill loves it in Phoenix, and Wallace will probably want to stay in Detroit. I think Wallace could be a fit here, but If Miami does not resign Haslem, thats the guy I want.

Even when the hawks are down 20 points (especially if its early), Woody still believes his starters give us the best chance at winning (even if they are the ones who gave up the 20 point lead in the first place).

In Woody’s words to Sekou, “we are not going to change what we do”.

doc

April 29th, 2010
10:12 pm

durant is the anti-melo. heh heh

Melvin

April 29th, 2010
10:23 pm

Astro,

If the we are down by 20 tomorrow night, I want you to help Woody clean out his office on Saturday morning.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
10:24 pm

OB, I’d love Haslem for leadership, but having Hill’s lovely wife (Tamia) in the stands wouldn’t be too bad.

So let’s see… we need to vocal leader, a defensive PG (who won’t mind getting very few minutes) and a perimeter center who can grab defensive boards. Oh yeah and a coach, SF (starting and back-up) and potentially a replacement for Joe.

Got that Sund, now get to shopping.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
10:26 pm

Melvin, imagine if you were Carlisle, had a luxury-level team, Cuban as your boss, the #2 seed and losing a series 4-1 to your in-state rival. How does that scenario suit you?

Melvin

April 29th, 2010
10:30 pm

Is it me or did Woody paint the same example with two different results? Dang, no wonder the players are clueless at times and don’t pay attention while Woody scribble maddest on the chalkboard…LMAO

““The first two games we sacrificed the ball,” Woodson said. “If the ball goes inside and they don’t double you, go play. If they don’t double, then kick the ball [out]. It’s simple.””

Melvin

April 29th, 2010
10:35 pm

Astro,

At least it’s a veteran team that has the same head coach and it’s big 3 who all won 4 championship rings together. Better that than being down 3-2 and have to win a closeout road game to a lower seed team missing 2 all star caliber players and rookie PG.

doc

April 29th, 2010
10:38 pm

looks like melvin called and raised on that one astro. and i dont know gambling.

O'Brien

April 29th, 2010
10:48 pm

If you’re Mark Cuban, what do you do?

I know its the Spurs, but the Mavs have been eliminated in the first round 3 out of the last 4 years (despite changing coaches). If I’m Woody, I’m pointing to the Mavs to help my case. Different coach, same result. I can’t help but wonder maybe Dirk is just not good enough to carry a team.

Bill Simmons wondered if the Mavs would have been better off if they had kept Devin Harris, their two #1 picks, and the additional $10 mil they would have saved. Because what has Jason Kidd done for them?

As for tomorrow’s game, Pressure is on the Bucks, because if they dont win tomorrow, it will be hard for them to win game 7 at our place.

But there is also pressure on the Hawks and Woody not to lose to the #6 seed without its 2 best players, after being up 2-0.

As much as I have been on Woody, this series is not over yet. (FWIW, If the Hawks lose tomorrow, then I think Woody should not be resigned).

However, I am hoping Woody coaches his best game of the season, and I’m hoping the players play their best game of the season.

Lets bring game 7 back to ATL.

niremetal

April 29th, 2010
10:51 pm

Doc,

First off, the Hawks only had the league’s lowest payroll once – in 2006-2007. They were near the bottom in 2004-2005 and 2005-2006 (in which only the 2nd year expansion Bobcats were lower), but weren’t dead last. After the Bibby trade in 2007-2008, they basically came back to the pack.

As for those four years, well they were rebuilding. And there’s two approaches you can take to rebuilding/retooling when you are in the position the Hawks were in back in 2002-2003. Approach 1 is the model of perpetually retooling yourself by trades and MLE signings (which the Kings and pre-Donnie Walsh Knicks did). Approach 2 is to blow up the team, collect draft picks, and clear cap space to sign a couple free agents.

The Hawks did one of the more extreme versions of Approach 2 in recent memory, but many teams go down to barebones payroll levels for a couple years when they’re trying to rebuild. IMHO, having a higher payroll when you’re trying to rebuild is generally a bad idea, since being anywhere in the vicinity of the cap prevents you from signing free agents or trading for players with high salaries. If you’d rather the Hawks have spent their payroll signing several more Speedy Claxtons in order to beef up the payroll, you wouldn’t be alone. But I think that’s a terrible way to rebuild a franchise, and it’s really the only way to increase payroll when you’re a team in the cellar – keep signing guys to the MLE. But that can backfire when those MLE guys turn out to be busts and you’re stuck with a bunch of $6M/yr long-term contracts (that’s the position the Wizards find themselves in now).

The Hawks’ approach to rebuilding was to save its money so that when the opportunity arose, they could sign or trade for the players you want. If the Hawks had spent $6M on a free agent in 2004-2005, they wouldn’t have had the cap space to get JJ at all. If they had used the MLE in the summer of 2007, they wouldn’t have been able to trade for Bibby without running afoul of the luxury tax.

Bear in mind that the ASG’s low payroll notwithstanding, they signed Speedy to a cap space (ie greater than MLE) contract in 2006. That was a bad idea. And one need only look at the other guys signing MLE and just-above-MLE contracts during those years (Mike James, Marko Jaric, etc) shows that building payroll for its own sake is rarely a winning strategy.

I agree that the team made bad decisions on HOW they built the team during those years. Really, Knight/Sund/ASG stumbled onto a 50-win roster. But I think that was because of poor personnel decisions, not fiscal stinginess.

niremetal

April 29th, 2010
11:07 pm

Put another way: I think the payroll would have been higher sooner if the Hawks had picked CP3 instead of Marvin. But since Marvin didn’t perform to expectations, they decided it was better to keep the payroll low and keep building through the draft instead of going out and signing more mediocre players for the MLE in the summer of 2006 or 2007 – which might result in more wins in the short term, but rarely help in the long-term for a non-contending team.

Bear in mind that after the signing Speedy, the Hawks were effectively over the cap – that is, the amount of the MLE exceeded the amount of cap space they had, which meant that they couldn’t sign any player for more than the MLE. So any free agent signings would have to be for that amount. And if you go check out the MLE signings during the summers of 2005, 2006, and 2007, I think you’d agree that signing them wouldn’t have gotten us to the playoffs any faster – and even if they did, their contracts would be deadweight right now.

I don’t think they planned to screw up their draft picks and get to where they are now. I think they decided that it would be better to endure a couple more years of not competing for a playoff spot than to panic and spend $25M on Darius Songalia.

HB Ando

April 29th, 2010
11:16 pm

For all of the conspiracy theories you guys glutton yourselves on, none of you ever really pondered that Sekou and Ando both moved on at roughly the same time? Did it never occur to any of you that the guy several of you met, supposedly Ando, might have just been an actor on Sekou’s payroll? That Sekou may have been the writer behind every single Ando post ever written? Yet when Sekou moves on, none of you wonder why Ando was soon to follow?

Nire, thank you for assuming the role of the guy who has to waste inordinate time and words dealing with Astro’s never-ending nonsense.

Better you than me, sir.

Hope you are all well.

Melvin

April 29th, 2010
11:25 pm

Oh my, a HB Ando sighting…. Will he be the Hawks lucky rabbit foot…

Melvin

April 29th, 2010
11:27 pm

HB,

I met you. And you ain’t Sekou and Sekou ain’t you…. Nice to see you are still kicking…

doc

April 29th, 2010
11:29 pm

nire …

“I agree that the team made bad decisions on HOW they built the team during those years. Really, Knight/Sund/ASG stumbled onto a 50-win roster. But I think that was because of poor personnel decisions, not fiscal stinginess.”

truth nire, only belkins was into the stingy way and was adamant they stick to the original plan to not spend. once they fell apart i think stinginess was crucial to keep operating expenses at a minimum until they caught a wiff of the playoffs then made their move to spend more. not saying i blame them just along the way the pockets could have been opened earlier to match jj with something better than rooks coming along.

nire again ….

“Put another way: I think the payroll would have been higher sooner if the Hawks had picked CP3 instead of Marvin.”

agree totally and was what i was saying the other day, not sure they wanted to raise the team up too quickly wanting instead to wait and build slower. just my take on why they put so much into marvin and continued to say point guards arent that important. that was BK’s take as he loaded up on long bodies for his prototype building project. how it turned out still is telling as he isnt judged a success as he continues to be unemployed. that is my guess. some of our colleagues on the blog would have come up with a better team sooner if left to the draft. too many holes in what was actually returned on that investment by draft.

as far as bigs they let go i was not thinking songalia but the guy in carolina nad the other injured in portland. werent they hawks?

nire, you are cutting hairs there, we were within the bottom three for ~4.5 years until the trade was made for bibby. i guess only the bobcats and portland were in our category if memory serves. the minimum was around 39 mil and we were close to it starting with the 2003 season after bk blew up things appropriately and continued there until the winter of 2008. that is a long time for fans to be patient, understandably during a corporate divorce which was a factor.

doc

April 29th, 2010
11:34 pm

ray, now that was as good of an imitation as you have ever come up with only waaaaay tooooo short.

HEH HEH

MannyT

April 30th, 2010
12:31 am

If Ando puts on a red cape and tights, he looks just like Sekou…hmmm

I left out the part about drinking 17 beers or shots and then he looks like Sekou.

Details…

…and I think I’m more likely to find a winning lottery ticket blowing down the street than to find Grant Hill playing for the Hawks.

BWAF

O'Brien

April 30th, 2010
7:02 am

With Sekou putting Woody on blast, I wonder where Ando stands on the matter.

Ray,

Great post on MC’s blog. You play how you practice, especially when you’ve been playing in the same system for so long (Josh – 6 years, Marvin, JJ and ZaZa – 5 years, Bibby and Al – 3years).

Melvin,

Carlisle flip-flopped. And he is getting blasted for it.

Kidd has played horrible this series. He averaged 8 pts, 7 assists, 6 rebounds, 9-28 from 3 (14-46 overall), but still played 41 mpg. Last night, the Mavs were down big. They bring in Beaubois (their rookie G, drafted #26), and he gave them a spark (16 pts in 21 minutes, and he had the second highest +/- on the team), and helped the Mavs make a run to get back close.

But in the fourth, Carlisle does not play Beaubois until the 2:44 mark in the fourth quarter. Geez. Whats wrong with these coaches? The rookie helps your team make a run, and you hardly give him any PT in the fourth.

Melvin

April 30th, 2010
9:39 am

OB,

My post was during the 3rd qtr comeback. I was shock to see the rookie not playing in the 4th as well. I heard one of the announcers make the same observation.

Astro Joe

April 30th, 2010
10:17 am

Ando, there’s $100 toll to re-enter these blogs. I assume that you’ve spent the past few months wrapping pennies and cleaning windshields to re-pay your debt. Right?

Melvin, Mavs have lost in the first round as a #1 seed and as a #2 seed. I kind of dubt that Mavs fans are feeling particularly great about this current 3-4 year playoff stretch. And last time I checked, the Hawks still have a chnace to advance to the 2nd round… not so much for the Mavs.

niremetal

April 30th, 2010
10:25 am

Then again, the Mavs were playing the Spurs, a perennial contender that is not missing any rotation players. The Hawks are playing the Bucks, a team that hadn’t posted a winning record in 7 years and is missing its two best players.

Melvin

April 30th, 2010
10:41 am

Interesting point of view on Joe (not) going to the Bulls from yahoo sports…

“the two most-discussed targets are Atlanta’s do-it-all wing Joe Johnson and Toronto big Chris Bosh.

Chicago radio guys ceaselessly talk up Joe Johnson, I don’t know how Nick Friedell suffers these loons, and you get a lot of Johnson talk on the chat boards and ICQ logs. And as nice as Joe’s stats are this season, you also have to understand the sheer amount of minutes he plays and how much he has the ball in his hands. I’m not calling him selfish, but I should point out he has more chances to put together nice box-score stats than just about any other player in this league outside of Cleveland.

And when you factor in all those possessions that are used up, pace, minutes and play relative to the rest of the league, he finishes out at a 19.3 PER. Which is good, but hardly the work of a franchise player. And some Bulls fans have pointed out — including one Real GM message board poster that I cannot locate right now but will surely be credited when I find his posts — Johnson’s stats at age 28 scarily resemble Jalen Rose’s stats at the same age, the year before Chicago traded for him.”

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-Chicago-Bulls-Gone-Til-November;_ylt=AkzlgvDoTznzXPLFYbqSqse8vLYF?urn=nba,237694

Melvin

April 30th, 2010
10:44 am

Nire,

I told Astro similiar things last night… He’s ducking and weaving…LOL

Melvin

April 30th, 2010
10:47 am

Astro,

You forgot to mention that the Mavs were in the finals in 2006 along with those stretch of playoffs letdowns.

niremetal

April 30th, 2010
11:00 am

Kelly Dwyer absolutely despises the Hawks, Melvin. Nothing new there…

Astro Joe

April 30th, 2010
11:01 am

Melin, yes, and since then? I don;t know guys, seems like we’re still in it as a #3 seed and they lost as a #2 seed. But I guess that doesn;t matter… still being in it. Because we’re playing college ball where style points count I guess.

Melvin

April 30th, 2010
11:02 am

Astro,

I just hope we are still in it after this weekend….

niremetal

April 30th, 2010
11:04 am

They lost to the fully-healthy Spurs, Astro. We’re 1 game away from losing to the depleted Bucks. Are you really so disingenuous that you can’t admit that the Hawks should have had an easier time handling these Bucks than the Mavs did the Spurs?

Astro Joe

April 30th, 2010
12:07 pm

nire, we’re operating under two different assumptions. Losing a series to the Bucks is clearly worse than the Mavs losing a series to the Spurs… but in case uyou haven’t noticed…WE HAVEN’T LOST THE SERIES YET!!!!

Can we hold the funeral after the death or must we do it while the patient is on life supprt? The Mavs, they’re DEAD. The Hawks… NOT. Is that up for debate at 12:07 PM EST on Friday, April 30?

niremetal

April 30th, 2010
12:41 pm

We’re in exactly the same place that the Mavs were in 24 hours ago, Astro. The difference is that we are in the same place while facing a team far inferior to our own in terms of both talent and experience.

I haven’t rung the funeral bells yet. But unless you’re one of those people who thinks that it’s bad karma to write a will or take out a life insurance policy, I don’t see the problem with discussing what a disaster it would be if the Hawks do lose the series.

Astro Joe

April 30th, 2010
1:19 pm

nire, I obviously can’t stop anyone from discussing all the gloom and doom associated with the Hawks. have at it and enjoy.

Melvin

April 30th, 2010
1:28 pm

Well, I hope it won’t be a death at the funeral tonight…ok, ok, i couldn’t resist.

niremetal

April 30th, 2010
1:41 pm

The Hawks aren’t guaranteed anything beyond their next 48 minutes of play, and neither is Woodson, whose contract ends the moment the Hawks’ season does. But if Woodson is going out — and after three straight losses in their Eastern Conference first-round series against the Milwaukee Bucks, the rumblings about his departure are stronger than ever — he will go out his way.

Facing a close-out situation in Game 6 Friday night on the Bucks’ home floor, Woodson insists he will stay the course. There will be no major change in the Hawks’ defensive approach, no wrinkles in what they do on offense or in how they plan to deal with a team that has snatched the momentum in this series from the higher-seeded Hawks.

http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/sekou_smith/04/30/woodson/

That last sentence…oy…

Daniel

April 30th, 2010
2:13 pm

Just like all the regular bloggers on here, I am depressed, disgusted, disappointed, and really have nothing of value to contribute. no one could see this coming (no clyde or jeje or whatever, I don’t believe you.) Dark days in Atlanta indeed.

I hold out hope, please, please, don’t make us fans out to be fools yet again!!!!

O'Brien

April 30th, 2010
2:20 pm

Thanks for the link nire. Another interesting point to me was “Like Woodson, Hawks’ captain and four-time All-Star Joe Johnson will be a free agent this summer, too. While there is no indication that his fate is tied to Woodson’s, there is little chance one will return without the other.

Woodson’s first contract was up three years ago, after he guided the Hawks to their first playoff appearance in 11 years. Johnson was the one player that spoke out in support of his coach before Woodson was rewarded with a two-year extension”.

Personally, I would love to see JJ come back, but I wouldnt mind seeing a new HC, who hopefully will have some new ideas (offensively and defensively).

Melvin,

If you’re the Bulls, and you have to choose between Bosh and JJ, who are you taking?

I’m taking JJ. I like Bosh, but what has he done for Toronto? I think JJ and Rose would make one of the best backcourts in the league, and they still have Noah, Deng and Gibson who are young front-court players.

Astro Joe

April 30th, 2010
2:35 pm

I think Bosh is overrated. A lot closer to SAR than KG in terms of impact (IMO).

Regarding Sekou’s article… we’ve seen this before in other team sports. If there aren’t many options that have been practiced and executed during 87 previous games, is it really a good idea to try to install a new wrinkle in 48 hours? Also, if you did want to offer a new wrinkle, exactly what would be logical to share with the media prior to the game? Would you even say “we have a secret in store for the Bucks?” Why? You only need to give the players confidence, not your fan base.

And yes, being a one-trick pony on defense is clearly the result of poor coaching and game-planning. But it makes no sense to try and resolve that in 48 hours… especially with a group of players who evidently haven’t shown attention to detail.

niremetal

April 30th, 2010
2:49 pm

Fair point to a degree, Astro. But sticking with something that clearly isn’t working is a recipe for disaster in the playoffs, where you have to play the same team 4-7 times in a row. I’m not calling for a huge change. Just maybe something like “show a trap on Jennings off screens instead of outright switching.” Just something to give them a different look. Hopefully he’s cooking something up like that, but if not….well, I have a feeling we’ll see more of Jennings breaking down Zaza and Al tonight.

Melvin

April 30th, 2010
3:00 pm

OB,

Don’t put me on the spot like that. I’m just reporting the news. However, I’m not a big Bosh fan. He’s too soft for my liking. But the yahoo guy did have a point, can Joe and Rose work in the backcourt together b/c both seem to need the ball in their hands and Joe is older than Bosh. The Bulls dont have a low post scorer and i think finding a good big that cant get you 20/10 is harder than finding a 20pt scorer on the perimeter. Heck, do you really need an all-star SG next to Rose or just a guy who could compliment him???

Astro Joe

April 30th, 2010
4:04 pm

nire, I don’t disagree. I expect some wrinkle, but frankly, there is no good reason to share any such strategy with the media in advance of the game. At least my pea-brain can’t think of any good reason to disclose such info.

HB Ando

April 30th, 2010
6:08 pm

Classic Joe: you defiantly refused to up your action from $50 to $100. Begged you to. So here, now, you pretend it’s $100. Too funny! Circuitous Joe at his finest!

Based on your math, the Hawks need to win twice to take the series. Ha ha!

I’m sure you have a nugget of wisdom to reference from your never-ending stories from “the life and times of a middle (almost, maybe) manager, in corporate America”. How the writers/creators of “The Office” were able to construct they’re well-known sit com, without your prodigious insight and experience on the front lines is beyond me.

Melvin

April 30th, 2010
7:16 pm

i dont like the fact that Bennett Salvatore is calling our game.

Melvin

April 30th, 2010
7:38 pm

Another qtr the Hawks failed to score 20pts…

Sautee

April 30th, 2010
7:47 pm

Melvin,

At least the D was pretty solid.

Melvin

April 30th, 2010
8:03 pm

Hawks offense is painful to watch.

Sautee

April 30th, 2010
8:05 pm

Too much iso. Terrible spacing.

Melvin

April 30th, 2010
8:05 pm

Sautee,

with 2mins remaining in the 2nd qtr and Hawks have not broke 30pts, make that 2 str8 qtrs where they havent scored 20pts….. Should we still reference that they were in the top 5 or whatever in the regular season in scoring or scoring efficient..

Melvin

April 30th, 2010
8:11 pm

Sautee,

At least the Hawks broke 30pts as they finished the half with 31pts… SMH

Sautee

April 30th, 2010
8:14 pm

Melvin,

It’s like watching a train wreck in super slo-mo.

Kiki

April 30th, 2010
8:16 pm

I missed the first half. Can somebody tell me if both teams are playing excelent defense or the offense is sucking hugely?

Sautee

April 30th, 2010
8:19 pm

Kiki,

We’re playing good D. But we have been VERY careless with the ball (8 turnovers already). And no ball movement, just a LOT of ISO.

Kiki

April 30th, 2010
8:23 pm

Thanks Sautee. I don’t know what is happening to this team.

Melvin

April 30th, 2010
8:24 pm

Kiki,

Just forget about the 1st half, it was terrible. Luckily we are only down by 3. If the Hawks can play D like they did in the 2nd half and find some offense, they could win this game.

Kiki

April 30th, 2010
8:41 pm

Melvin

April 30th, 2010
8:53 pm

Nice to see the Hawks put together a run in this 3rd qtr…

MannyT

April 30th, 2010
8:53 pm

DEER IN HEADLIGHTS.

STEP ON GAS!

BWAF

Kiki

April 30th, 2010
9:02 pm

Praying against a typical 4th Q meltdown.

Melvin

April 30th, 2010
9:02 pm

Mo Cheeks. Now that’s my vote for Woody replacement.

vava74

April 30th, 2010
9:06 pm

didn’t catch the first half. thought that the game was 8pm.

good for me. now, will we witness one of the most staggering choke jobs ever?

glad that the bucks are doing their master choke act but, can we beat them at that game?

will we prove our dominance at choking by losing a 15 point advantage in the 4th?

I honestly think we can… let’s all shout: “yes we can! yes we can! yes we can”

Kiki

April 30th, 2010
9:08 pm

JJ keeps missing. Pass the ball please!!

Kiki

April 30th, 2010
9:12 pm

Horford came to win.

vava74

April 30th, 2010
9:14 pm

against this small line up we only needed to do this: Horford in the high post to draw Thomas out, Marvin and Josh doing baseline cuts and trying to get good low post positioning or easy lay ups.

instead we pounded the ball and had JJ take horrible shots… fortunately Jamal seems to have finally shaken his jitters off…

Kiki

April 30th, 2010
9:20 pm

Sorry, JJ is NOT a max player. He’s an all-star.

Melvin

April 30th, 2010
9:21 pm

Damn these Hawks make things hard…

Melvin

April 30th, 2010
9:22 pm

Take Bibby out. They are attacking him on defense.

doc

April 30th, 2010
9:26 pm

damn are we letting them back in the game?

Kiki

April 30th, 2010
9:30 pm

Well doc, JJ is letting them back in the game with his forced shots.

Kiki

April 30th, 2010
9:35 pm

doc

April 30th, 2010
9:35 pm

Enter your comments here

doc

April 30th, 2010
9:38 pm

didnt get to see this one, got stuck in north ga town “watching” on a computer. wish i had. seems some things went right for our guys. maybe some confidence returns as well for game seven.

go hawks!

out of here.

doc

April 30th, 2010
9:39 pm

btw this is the first adversity this team has had all season. no injuries sometimes means the coach and team get complacent.

Melvin

April 30th, 2010
9:44 pm

Great road win by the Hawks. Bring it back to the “A” babe…

vava74

April 30th, 2010
9:52 pm

well, we won, but we sure tried to f**k up this one as well.

I know that Astro will be back with usual load of crap, but the simple fact is that we had no offense again in the 4th and survived this time on account of Crawford.

Let’s hope that he is really back and he plays like this in the 7th.

Good to see Horford aggressive again.

HOWEVER, we were in trouble again and launching stupid shots when we should have tried to rotate the ball.

One of the most incredible things we can always witness in our Hawks games is our typical outcome off a time out:

1 or 2 out of 10 times we get a alley hoop dunk (always when the game is not on the line), the rest 8 or 9 out of 10, we either lose the ball or launch a bad shot with zero quality ball movement.

Sautee

April 30th, 2010
9:57 pm

This could be a defining moment.

Unless we lose Sunday.

Or unless we go down 4-0 to the Magic.

But….otherwise, this could be a defining moment. ;-)

Melvin

April 30th, 2010
11:38 pm

Nire,

Watching the OKC/LA game. Mark Jackson just said he would choose great offense over great defense any day. See, I’m not the only one with that perspective…..

jlewis

April 30th, 2010
11:46 pm

Will somebody mention the defense JJ played tonight please. Other than Jamal Crawford, no one on this team can get their own shot, please realize this. The roster sucks

M.C.

May 1st, 2010
12:04 am

first I would like to applause the Atlanta Hawks for a job well -done ! they did what was expected from them. They eliminated the mass volume from the crowd and stayed focus on winning.
the hawks came together as a unit and shared the ball without any reservations the energy on the court came from all directions. the support came from the bench cheering them on with standing ovation and waving of the logo-towels. the hawks played excellent defense with blocking the bucks key players, in nut-shell this is call process of elimination (GO HAWKS ! ) now if they can use that same MOMENTUM in game (7) the hawks can go forward in the (2) round with that being said I challenge all readers and Hawk’s fans to come-out and support the Hawks wearing white on Sunday May 2, 2010 @ 1:00pm . “lets the bucks know that we don’t fear the deer” the deer fear the bird”"

from a true fan M.C. (Jonesboro)

Big Ray

May 1st, 2010
12:31 am

Had to watch the game from the DVR recording again.

Good road win. I wasn’t feeling too good after that first half.

Second half was much better.

Thank good ness Mike Woodson scrapped that damn switch defense long enough for us to clamp those guys down. Traps worked much better, as did man-to-man defense. I’m not however, impressed with his 2nd half offensive adjustments. All I heard was “I want to see 3 or 4 passes before a shot goes up.” WTF is that? Is that all there is to offense? All the same, he must have gotten some kind of message across, because the Hawks remained tough on defense, and managed to get a few things going on offense. I’m sorry, but I just can’t give him credit for much here, as there weren’t any different play calls that I could see. We played largely the same way, we just finally started getting the ball in where it needed to go, and stopped the circus of ISOs. Why did it take this long to make these adjustments? Didn’t we know what worked in games 1 and 2? All the same, Woody had those guys doing defense they way they needed to. Thank goodness for the defensive wrinkes.

Why? Because the Buck’s gameplan was simple: wait for us to do that stupid switch, then exploit it. I have no freakin’ clue why it took 3 WHOLE GAMES to figure out how that was happening.

After we stopped the dribble exhibitions by JJ and Jamal, we went to the post more, and that created some better looks and opportunities. Meanwhile, Mike Bibby and most notably Jamal Crawford made shots. Jamal was Mr. 4th Quarter. Horford helped out some there as well.

Good thing, too, because Joe was doing everything but what we needed him to do, since his hot start. I’d like to give him props for still managing to get 22 points, but the fact is…he took 24 shots to get there, and he was only 4-4 from the line. That’s not being aggressive, that’s just taking a bunch of shots. Some of those shots were just plain awful. I think he’ll have a much better game 7, though. In fact, I’m all but sure of it. Glad to see his teammates step up and take the load in the second half. His defense looked pretty damn good though, bottling up Salmons like it was nothing.

What stood out to me most was:

Al Horford’s constant battling in the paint, on the glass, wherever he happened to be on the court. We really, really needed it.

The energetic defensive play of Josh Smith, who eventually began intimidating the Bucks, making nearly all of them stay outside for their shot attempts. He stayed calm, played under control, and helped Al fight on the boards. The way those two guys play together and feed off of each other can be beautiful to watch. Loved the blocked shots, but that steal he made that ended up in a basket and foul was pure fuel for the Hawks. Call him a dummy all you like, we need that guy, and he’s headier than you want to believe, as long as he’s focused.

Mike Bibby impressed me with his defensive effort as well, believe it or not. He bodied up to guys, taking away their dribble moves. As bad as he can be defensively, that worked, and Jamal should take a page from that book.

Jamal was composed, aggressive, and effective on offense. Aggressive is not taking a bunch of shots (particularly contested fall-aways). Aggressive is attacking the defense.

Good win, and way to withstand the Bucks final run in the 4th. Now let’s take this thing back to Philips, beat the Bucks, and shut their fans up for good.

Big Ray

May 1st, 2010
12:50 am

Heh, heh, heh…..

Ando STILL gets some of you by the tail…..

Funny comments by the nearly equally long absent MannyT (though I can’t and don’t blame you)…

Big Ray

May 1st, 2010
12:53 am

“Ando STILL gets some of you by the tail…..”

Or did I get that backwards? ;)

Sautee

May 1st, 2010
10:47 am

Wow. Like someone would read this drivel and actually change their mind?

One has to wonder about the purpose behind THAT amount of hate.

MannyT

May 1st, 2010
11:38 am

Be on the look out 8:02 AM

Yet another village has let their idiot wander into the internet.

Hopefully we can return said individual to original, non technical habitat.

O'Brien

May 1st, 2010
12:13 pm

Name me one starter from the Bucks who would start on the Hawks right now?

This is the reason why everyone was so frustrated with the Hawks losing 3 games to the Bucks. The Bucks are not that good (in terms of talent). What they have over us, is coaching, heart, and execution.

Great defense by the Hawks, and it was good to see Woody make some kind of adjustment defensively. Unfortunately, our offense is still bad.

I expect us to come out and win game 7 big, in front of the home fans. However, we will need to be better on offense to have a chance at beating the Magic.

niremetal

May 1st, 2010
4:59 pm

Melvin,

Remind me how many rings Mark Jackson has? ;)

Melvin

May 1st, 2010
6:03 pm

Nire,

I heard ya but how many guys who played during the Jordan era and wasn’t a teammate of Jordan who rings??? There were guys that was better than Jackson that didn’t win a ring either. So are you really going to use that to question one’s knowledge of the game?

niremetal

May 1st, 2010
6:17 pm

Melvin,

1) I was hinting at a broader point: Mark Jackson’s teams routinely got their asses kicked in the playoffs in large part because of Jackson’s atrocious defense. He was routinely called the NBA’s worst defensive guard. So citing him as a source for saying that defense is important has a certain irony to it. It’s kind of like hearing Don Nelson give the same analysis.

2) Mark Jackson played for 3 years before and 6 years after Jordan’s first title (not to mention the 2 years of Jordan’s first retirement) and never won a ring. His team only lost to the eventual champion three times (and one of those was in the first round). They only lost to Jordan’s Bulls once. It’s not like Malone and Stockton, who sniffed the title multiple times as their team’s stars but never made it.

3) In my view, at least, history pretty much settles this argument. Teams that score a lot but don’t play at least better-than-average defense never, ever win titles. Teams with average-to-below-average offenses and stifling defenses do win titles, and routinely. QED, IMHO.

niremetal

May 1st, 2010
6:37 pm

*that defense isn’t important

Big Ray

May 1st, 2010
6:45 pm

A friend e-mailed me and let me know the troll broke in the back door again (imagine that, him going “back door”). Well, the door is closed again for the moment. Man, the hobbies some people have…

Interesting back-and-forth on Mark Jackson (and any other potential head coach candidates). Not sure we can link how a guy played, to how he will coach, or what kind of coach he will be in the NBA. I think it goes without saying that an objective view is different than a subjective view. Once you’ve had a chance to step back and analyze the game, rather than having the subjective view of playing in it, you may begin to change your philosophy.

Having said that, not every player makes a good coach (or even a good GM for that matter). We have to account for learning curve, external influences (Michael Jordan influenced by Larry Brown, for example), and so much more.

A guy can be known for being a heck of an offensive player. Doesn’t mean he can coach. A guy could be known for being a good defensive player, but won’t coach that way. You just never know. I wouldn’t turn my nose up instantly at Mark Jackson as a head coach, but I wouldn’t be jumping up and down with a sign that says “Fire Woody, Hire Mark NOW”, either.

You’re seeing it more and more around the league, though. The Bulls went with Del Negro, and I’m still not sold on that one. Pistons went with Curry, and it bombed. Minnesota tabbed Kurt Rambis. Considering how he used to play, would you worry about his ability to coach the offensive side of the ball? Dude was never much on offense, making his name as a defender/rebounder/hustler. Maurice Cheeks didn’t last long. Neither did Avery Johnson. Scott Skiles got fired from one job, but is in another one now. Reggie Theus, what about him? Does that make them bad coaches or good ones? The only thing I could prove is that it makes them either employed or unemployed.

Even saying that guys like Avery Johnson and Mo Cheeks don’t have current job offers (that we know of) is misleading. They could have had job offers that they weren’t interested in. You also have to take into account that a guy may not have a job offer because either A) Teams are currently sticking with the devil that they DO know, or B) Maybe the current GM for some teams doesn’t like them, and wants to go in a different direction.

You just never know.

For now, I’m not worried about any of that. Game 7 is tomorrow. That’s what’s up.

MannyT

May 1st, 2010
6:56 pm

@Ray

You can delete my 11:38 AM Comment. It is so out of place now that the 8:02 is gone.

Yes, we are all in this together, but some days it is an odd place to hang out. I’ll still drop in and out. More in than Ando, more out the Niremetal.

For all the angst, one day you bloggers will admit that being a Hawks fan is like being a NASCAR fan. You want to see a good event, but the unpredictability of the wrecks also draws folks in. The low of game 5 increased the interest in games 6 and 7.

Looking forward to seeing which Hawks team shows up tomorrow. Some days, I think the Hawks logo should look a lot like this one :twisted:

To those lurking buck fans, FEAR THE DEERHUNTER. Looks just like a crazed hawk.

BWAF

MannyT

May 1st, 2010
7:02 pm

@BIG RAY Say it again…it’s all about game 7. We can play Sundevil (or Sund angel depending on your perspective and preferred shoulder) most of the summer.

Besides, you are right about type of coach is not related to type of player. Otherwise, Phil Jackson would have been in the hall of fame based on his playing career. :roll:

BWAF

O'Brien

May 1st, 2010
7:11 pm

I dont think a player’s credentials has anything to do with his coaching abilities. Magic tried to coach the Lakers, and that didn’t work. MJ might be a horrible coach.

And if I’m not mistaken, Woody was known more as an offensive player. But as we know, he doesn’t give a $hit about offense.

But If I’m Marc Jackson, I would take a job as an assistant HC first, to learn some more about the league.

Ray,

I’m thinking Hawks win big tomorrow (like our game 7 win over Miami last year). Hawks and Woody already had their wakeup call, and the crowd at Phillips will be rocking.

Big Ray

May 1st, 2010
8:24 pm

MannyT ,

Great comments (and I always appreciate your sense of humor). We’ll chop it up in summer, in the meantime I’ll look for a good win tomorrow. At least I hope so. I could do without a dramatic one, my nerves are frayed at the edges, LOL. I like the Hawks logo… ;)

O’brien ,

Not that I’m in any way qualified to do so, but if I was judging the merits and potential of a guy to be a head coach, I’d go EXACTLY where you suggested. Has the candidate got any meaningful experience as an assistant, and under whom? Jackson isn’t the only one who needs to go that route if he wants a job. I’d even suggest doing that for a number of years (not just one or two).

As for tomorrow, I’m hoping and looking for a big win as well.

Kudos to Woody for finally adding wrinkles to the defense, and to the players for buying into and executing it. Get into the 2nd round, and we will have to adjust again. Can coach and team do it again? We’ll see. But first, game 7…

vava74

May 1st, 2010
8:41 pm

Woody finally making changes to his defense only when we are with our backs against the wall gives me absolutely no solace.

Just shows how much better we could be with a better coach instead of that stubborn fool.

Our offense still sucked and we were 3 or 4 jumpers for the bucks going in and 3 or 4 of ours not going in away from a loss.

Our offense was slightly better in the 3rd quarter only but it only looked better because some of the bad shots (which were still there) went in.

Astro Joe

May 1st, 2010
8:48 pm

Ray, next time you talk to your long-winded ex-partner who just accused me of mis-remembering the wager from 2008, please reference the following:

By HB Ando
October 13, 2008 10:46 PM | Link to this
Last season, the difference between 7 and 10 was six games. While six games isn’t an insignificant number, my point was that Joe uses a six-game difference of opinion to paint himself as reasonable and optimistic and to castigate me as the purveyor of “doom”?
That’s a bit of an overstatement, don’t you think?
My exact point wasn’t that there is no difference between 7 and 10, but that the difference was hardly great enough to continue this ridiculous assertion that I seek to be the grim reaper of the Hawks fortunes.
In other words, Joe, why don’t you try something a little more valid, to build yourself up, than opportunistically jumping on Lacsho’s rant about how my lower expectations are a buzz kill?
In classic Joe fashion, lacking any substance, your response to a detailed rebuttal, regarding front-line rotations, and the issues I highlight, is to, as I predicted, dismissively state that “we have nothing left to discuss” if I think that the difference between 7 and 10 is not that great. This is now four straight years of you calling me out, me responding with actual basketball-related perspectives, and you bailing out and failing to ever finish anything you started.
You did exactly what I predicted you would. You arrogantly dismissed the point, without actually objectifying the facts (six games), and did so as if the very idea was beneath you. Regardless of the basketball issues, you absolutely validated the exact traits I highlighted, regarding your substance-less, and always predictable, style.
Thank you for making my point that much more obvious.
So, Joe, why don’t you put your money where your mouth is: $100 the Hawks don’t make the playoffs. After all the blather we’ve heard from you, regarding your history of corporate management, I have to assume you can afford to risk a measly $100, since you’re opinion is beyond reproach, and you’re so certain I don’t know what I’m talking about (and the difference between 7th and 10th is great enough to tsk-tsk me).

http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/hawks/entries/2008/10/10/new_additions.html?cxntfid=blogs_hawks

Astro Joe

May 1st, 2010
8:50 pm

http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/hawks/entries/2008/10/10/new_additions.html?cxntfid=blogs_hawks

If you read Ando’s 10:46 PM post on 10/12/08, tell me how much of a wager he offered up to me. Maybe my reading skills aren’t what they used to be.

Astro Joe

May 1st, 2010
8:51 pm

My bad, 10/13/08.

Big Ray

May 1st, 2010
8:52 pm

And as I was pontificating about coaches who are employed vs unemployed, this article was written. Huh, guess ol’ Avery isn’t as unwanted as some of us might have thought, eh?

http://www.ajc.com/sports/johnson-to-talk-with-512103.html

Astro Joe

May 1st, 2010
9:00 pm

And yes, Woody did add some wrinkles to the defense and he did the right thing by not disclosing those wrinkles to the media prior to the game.

Astro Joe

May 1st, 2010
9:06 pm

From my vantage point, the Hawks (or Woody in many cases) can’t satisfy some around here unless they win 4 more games in the post-season… 1 against the Bucks and 3 against Orlando. Anything short of that and it feels like some will still b-tch and moan.

vava74

May 1st, 2010
9:28 pm

the Bucks are easily the least talented team of the 16 that qualified for the playoffs (due to Bogut’s injury).

yet, they managed to expose all of Woody’s coaching deficiencies.

it was ONLY when Woody made changes to his scheme (on the 88th game of the year and facing elimination) that we managed to look able to control a “strong” opposing back court.

I think that winning a 7 game series against the Bucks in 7 games will avoid the “laughing stock of the NBA” label we were about to get if we lost the series in 6 games, however, it will still be – if it does happen – embarrassing.

Truth is Told

May 1st, 2010
9:29 pm

HB Ando
10/13/2008
10:46 PM

So, Joe, why don’t you put your money where your mouth is: $100 the Hawks don’t make the playoffs. After all the blather we’ve heard from you, regarding your history of corporate management, I have to assume you can afford to risk a measly $100, since you’re opinion is beyond reproach, and you’re so certain I don’t know what I’m talking about (and the difference between 7th and 10th is great enough to tsk-tsk me).

vava74

May 1st, 2010
9:33 pm

by the way, the Celts are in command of game 1, however, they are being heavily loaded with fouls.

I only saw a few minutes up until now, however, with the Celts up by 8 or 9, they called a charging foul on Rondo instead of a +1 which was outrageous…

A few other commentaries: Mo Williams D sucks like hell. I would say that he is looking like Crawford on D.

Mike Brown seems in the same league of Woody, more or less. Very poor coaching from what I could see.

Astro Joe

May 1st, 2010
9:46 pm

Am I mis-remembering that the Lakers struggled with the Rockets last season sans Yao and T-Mac? Didn’t that series go 7 games?

vava74

May 1st, 2010
9:49 pm

It was embarrassing for the Lakers anyhow. Furthermore, the Lakers’ problems were a clear lack of focus, not a lack of coaching.

Obviously the fact that they went on to win the championship wiped that out, however, are you confident that IF we win the Bucks’ series we will win at least 2 games against Orlando?

I’m not.

O'Brien

May 1st, 2010
9:51 pm

vava,

I have listened to a Cleveland radio station, and hear fans (and the host) talk bad about Mike Brown. Basically, they feel like the only thing holding Cleveland back is Mike Brown. He is a very good defensive coach, but they say he is so focused on defense (Cavs are usually near the top in team defense) that he doesnt pay as much attention to offense as he should (sound familiar?).

And with a loaded roster, they wonder if he will be able to put the right players in the game, and make the right adjustments.

As for the game tonight, I am rooting for the Celtics.

AJ,

It’s not just about wins and losses. I think its also about effort. Because if the Hawks play well, and lose 4-2, most fans will be satisfied.

But if we lose 4-2, and we had double digit leads in 2 of those losses, only to see the offense go ISO oriented, and struggle, then yeah, fans will not be satisfied.

Or if we lose 4-2, but the average margin of defeat is 20 points (in our 4 losses), then fans might not be thrilled either (even if we do win 2 games).

One of the Hawks owners (Gearon Jr) said he expects the Hawks to go far. I wonder what his definition of “far” is.

vava74

May 1st, 2010
9:53 pm

maybe by the 4th game Woody will ditch again the switching D and we snatch a win… since we all know that tomorrow he will get us to play again the switch.

he I am pretty sure that he is now thinking that this way he will surprise the Bucks.

Astro Joe

May 1st, 2010
10:01 pm

Sounds like a lot of reasons to be dissatisfied to me. I wonder if y’all go to your favorite restaurant looking for reasons to hate the food, drinks or service.

vava74

May 1st, 2010
10:04 pm

the celts melted on the 3rd period and are now down by 1…

shooting from outside instead of going in. ‘Sheed plays on account of what? the size his contract or the size of his belly?

niremetal

May 1st, 2010
10:05 pm

Ando,

Not for nothing, but you need to suck up your hurt pride, admit you were wrong, and get back to making posts. You were wrong about the Hawks trading Bibby, wrong about the Hawks making the playoffs, and wrong about the Hawks’ payroll. Fine. Everyone around here has been wrong. But we don’t run away with our tails between our legs when it happens. We man up and admit we were wrong. Yeah, you made the mistake of putting money on it and blustering more than usual, but enough time has passed that you should be able to separate yourself from that and man up.

Come on, man. Enough is enough. Just get it over with, pay any debts you have (and deal with that OFF the blog) and get back here. Because no matter how many clashes people have with you, you were a good contributor to the blog.

niremetal

May 1st, 2010
10:06 pm

I’m with those who say they were satisfied that Woody made adjustments. The biggest thing that I noticed is that we were trapping and staying on some screens involving Jennings and Ridnour instead of outright switching. That was huge. So yeah, I give Woody a lot of credit for the win.

That being said, it won’t cut it to wait until game 6 to make an adjustment like that against Orlando.

vava74

May 1st, 2010
10:11 pm

Hickson is by FAAAAR the best CAV inside and Brown rewards him – after another bucket (5 for 7) by replacing him for Shaq (4 fouls in 10 minutes, 1 for 6 from the field)

O'Brien

May 1st, 2010
10:21 pm

Vava,

Also, shaq can’t run the floor like hickson either.

I hope Celtics can pull it out, because this might be their best chance to win 1 in Cleveland.

vava74

May 1st, 2010
10:33 pm

OB,

the refs just botched a call: it should have been the 6th on Shaq. Instead it was a block by Lebron and 4 second on shot clock with the Cavs up by 3…

It’s obvious that Shaq still commands a respect from the refs that Hickson doesn’t.

nire,

I am not saying that I was not happy with Woody’s changes, it is just they make me even madder at how he has made us play the switching D all the time.

vava74

May 1st, 2010
10:36 pm

now Shaq got away with an offensive goal tending call… a clear one.

vava74

May 1st, 2010
10:42 pm

well, PP shot Boston out of the game, the refs gave a huge boost and the Lebron finished the job.

1-0 cavs

OB, you were right, this was their best opportunity to surprise the Cavs and they blew it.

Also, although I never had any particular sympathy for Garnett, it’s kind of sad looking at him so washed up…

I’m off

Big Ray

May 1st, 2010
10:55 pm

I’ll agree that Woody’s adjustments sufficed in game 6. We still have game 7 coming up, and I’m just refusing to look past that. No talk of Orlando or anything else until then. Milwaukee won’t lay over and play dead.

Niremetal ,

Doesn’t get anymore straight-forward than that. We’ll see what happens in response, eh?

O’brien ,

Curious what Cleveland fans had to say about Mike Brown. I say he’s looking for a job if they can’t at least compete hard in the NBA Finals. Seriously, that team has no business missing out on the Finals like they did last year.

Here’s two big differences between Brown’s situation and Woody’s:

1) Brown has Lebron. ‘Nuff said.

2) If #1 wasn’t enough, he also has one heck of a stacked roster, a solid 10 deep.

Woody has neither, regardless of how similar they seem.

niremetal

May 1st, 2010
11:08 pm

Ray,

Absolutely right re: not looking past game 7. Shouldn’t have said anything that even remotely hinted that tomorrow’s game was a foregone conclusion. You never know which Hawks are going to show up…

Big Ray

May 2nd, 2010
1:14 am

Nire ,

We’ll find out. :)

vava74

May 2nd, 2010
5:41 am

Well, Mike Brown is no actual wonder BUT he did make an in-game adjustment yesterday putting Parker on Rondo at half time.

That changed the game quite a bit.

Usually Woody starts with “a concept” and either wins or loses the game sticking with it until the end.

Any eventual (very rare) adjustments happen between games, not within them.

O'Brien

May 2nd, 2010
9:22 am

You also don’t know which bucks team will show up. After all, they are being led by a rookie PG on the road for game 7, and I think the fans will be rocking (especially the second half).

I am looking for a better shooting game from JJ (at least 45% FG ), and I’m predicting a good overall game, where he gives us 25, 5 and 5.

Big pressure game for woody and jj. If we lose, chances are woody is not resigned. And If JJ has a bad game and we lose, then more people will be wondering if he is deserving of a Max contract.

Vava,

I remember early in the series last year Wade was lighting us up. And one of the assistants suggested we double Wade. Woody refused.

Which was a big reason why Wade averaged almost 30 a game, and we had to go to a game 7.

Melvin

May 2nd, 2010
10:32 am

Nire,

I know you have shown on numerous occasions how the Hawks are not as cheap as folks make them out to be but my question to you is why do you think the Hawks have the cheap stigma? Case in point, below is a quote from an article in the Boston Globe website.

“The ownership group then hired Sund, who has a history of running teams on limited budgets”

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/articles/2010/05/02/how_now_brown_its_a_familiar_refrain/?page=3

MannyT

May 2nd, 2010
10:59 am

@Melvin–That article also mentioned Rudy Gay as a potential replacement for Joe if he left. I think one of their sources has been mind altered. I’d be shocked if Memphis let him walk as a restricted free agent. I doubt we have the assets to do a sign & trade with them either.

@O’Brien & Ray–If you were Mark Jackson, would you take a drop in visibility to be an assistant coach? Even if the money is comparable, his odds of getting fired are much lower as a TV analyst. I think he waits for his opportunity to get the head job or just stays on TV with Van Gundy.

…and if we need a minor bulletin board thing for today and next week thank the backup center.

BWAF

Kiki

May 2nd, 2010
11:05 am

niremetal

May 2nd, 2010
11:34 am

Melvin,

That article has so many loads of crap that it’s tough to know where to begin. MannyT hit on one. Another is that the Pistons that Sund ran most certainly did not have a limited payroll. Sund does have experience running teams on a budget, but he also has experience running high-payroll teams. Also, the article says that if JJ walks, the Hawks would be under the cap and could make a run at Rudy Gay, which is just wrong. Anyway, the article is pretty devoid of sources, which is a signal that most of it is the author’s speculation.

I’m gonna go off on a tangent here. There are always plenty of people out in the world willing to feed reporters stories that damage the image of people they don’t like. One strong signal that a reporter or columnist is getting their info from a source that isn’t an “insider” is if the reporter cites his source as “a source familiar with the team,” “a source close to the team,” “a source familiar with the situation,” or some other similarly vague description that doesn’t tell you anything useful about the source’s organizational position. When they don’t cite a source at all and instead just say “there are rumors that X is happening,” you can almost bank on it being speculation not based on anything concrete.

Having done some tours in the world of journalism and politics, I can tell you that it’s sadly common, and not at all limited to sports. It’s just as prevalent in entertainment and politics. Reporters are driven by a desire to get read and seen, and they know that most people won’t notice how often they are wrong as much as how often they are right. Their “source” might not even have malicious or misleading intent. Quick story. A few years ago, I was a volunteer for a Senate candidate’s campaign. I had zero access to the candidate himself, and I certainly wasn’t privy to inside campaign information. I was talking to an acquaintance (I wouldn’t say “friend”) of mine who was a freelance political writer one day, and I mentioned that I suspected that the candidate would drop out of the race in a week or two if his poll numbers didn’t improve. To my shock, I read an article by this acquaintance a few days later, citing “a source familiar with [X candidate]’s campaign,” and was directly quoted. Like word for word. I was furious, both because the acquaintance gave me no signal that he was speaking to me in his capacity as a journalist, and because the way he cited me misleadingly indicated that I actually knew something. That was one of the reasons I ended up leaving the political scene for good.

My rule of thumb is: Unless they tell you something about the source’s position relative to the parties involved (for example, “a senior member of the candidate’s campaign staff” or “a source involved in the negotiations”), chances are that what you are reading is someone’s opinion, prediction, or straight-up BS rather than reliable info.

Here’s my conspiracy theory. A lot of the “ASG is cheap” articles and rumors first appear in the Boston Globe. Remember the gem last year about the Hawks dangling Marvin Williams in a S&T for cash? Another appeared the year before saying the Hawks were bluffing about their willingness to match offers for Smoove. Steve Belkin is based in Boston. Just sayin.

niremetal

May 2nd, 2010
11:54 am

To answer your more direct question: Even good journalists generally don’t know jack about the finances of pro sports. They have no conception of the scope of operating and franchise agreements, limited liability, or the distinction between the revenue/assets of a team and the revenue/assets of its owners. If a team spends less money or more money, it almost is always spun as resulting from the owners’ willingness to spend money. In reality, spending is tied almost exclusively to team revenues.

Suffice it to say, there’s a reason you never see pro sports teams go defunct even if its owners go bankrupt: Under the terms of every major pro sports team’s operating agreement, there is an almost shield that exists between the assets of a team and the assets of its owners. If a team is spending less, it’s because the team doesn’t sell many tickets. Now, obviously there is some cause-and-effect relationship between spending and revenues, but in the NBA (and to an even greater extent in the NFL), the league itself earns tons of revenues that are distributed to the individual teams. That’s why the minimum team payroll, salary cap, and luxury tax are all based on a percentage of leaguewide income. How much a team spends over that minimum correlates very closely to the individual team revenues derived from ticket sales, sponsorships, local TV/radio contracts, etc.

Atlanta is a terrible town for pro sports. Been true from the day the team arrived. The team’s ranking in TV ratings and attendance always lags behind its ranking in the standings. Jeff Schultz finally owned up and admitted that there’s a reason he writes more about the Braves’ offseason than he does about the Hawks’ regular season: His readers don’t care as much about pro basketball. That’s why the Hawks don’t earn money, which is, in turn, why the Hawks don’t spend more (and why they didn’t spend more money when Turner owned the team).

When ASG arrived, the team went into rebuilding mode under Billy Knight, trading away every player with a long-term contract to bring down the long-term payroll. When the ASG/Belkin dispute blew up, it coincided with the peak of the Hawks’ rebuilding process and, consequently, its lowest payrolls. Sportswriters assumed that there was a connection between the ASG takeover, the Belkin dispute and the payrolls. That view that was encouraged when both Belkin and ASG accused each other of wanting to run the team on the cheap. First impressions are hard to kick, which is why the stories have stayed around even after the Hawks started spending what most other teams in the league spend (ie the luxury tax threshold minus a couple million dollars). Ta da.

niremetal

May 2nd, 2010
11:54 am

Under the terms of every major pro sports team’s operating agreement, there is an almost complete shield that exists between the assets of a team and the assets of its owners.

niremetal

May 2nd, 2010
11:55 am

And *Atlanta is a terrible town for pro sports, and especially for pro basketball

niremetal

May 2nd, 2010
11:59 am

This concludes your daily filibuster.

dr.maryb

May 2nd, 2010
12:12 pm

Blue-Ray
(Clear Image)

Well, I went to church and prayed for a win today. Paid my tithe & its up to the Hawks to “do the darn thing!”
I’ve been enjoying all the great & intellectual postere from your,s & MC’s blog. Just observing from afar this past week.

Well, I got my popcorn & cherry coke. The beer is for the celebration afterwards. Don’t want to drink & drive.

BTW, Hawks WIN!

dr.maryb

May 2nd, 2010
12:24 pm

Blue-Ray
(Picture Perfect)

I checked out the Bucks blog after G.ame 6. Talk about weak! Seems like kids who didn’t pass their CRCT exams are posting over there. Not one intellectual in sight. Just a bunch of kids saying the same thing over & over! Not one researcher on board!!!

It really makes me for one appreciate all the bloggers on here, who whether you agree with them or NOT,
We all bring heat, passion & some logic. Not to mention – researched facts.

It appears that those fans are just glad to be in the playoffs & have very little hope of winning. They call us Thugs? That’s laughable. Were not even close to being that. All I hear is how tall, long & athletic we are, but no credit for being smart? Go – Figure!

I actually think Joe & Bibby think too much and play less on instincts. When Joe is dribbling? I honestly think he is making assessments instead of just playing what the defense gives you with quicker moves & plays.

Sautee

May 2nd, 2010
1:38 pm

Frontcourt: 6-12

Backcourt: 2-10

Let’s hope that the guards don’t forget the frontcourt.

Melvin

May 2nd, 2010
1:40 pm

Nire,

Great response. I knew that article was full of crap b/c if Joe leave, the Hawks still wouldn’t have cap space to sign Rudy Gay who would probably command at least 10 mil. Hence, why I ask you about the ASG stigma and not the rest of the article. Again you made some valid points in your response. Thanks.

Melvin

May 2nd, 2010
1:47 pm

Nire,

Look like folks may have took my Mark Jackson comment as an endorsement for him as the next Headcoach which not my intent.

niremetal

May 2nd, 2010
2:06 pm

Horford finally stepping up on the boards and dominating, like he should have all series…

Sautee

May 2nd, 2010
2:13 pm

nire,

agreed. His games 3 and 4 were the most disappointing of his career.

Now he’s looking like the Al of March.

Melvin

May 2nd, 2010
2:27 pm

Man, Joe is struggling…

Melvin

May 2nd, 2010
2:28 pm

Josh is for 3333333333333333….lol

niremetal

May 2nd, 2010
2:40 pm

Joe is struggling on offense, Melvin. On the other hand, he has been playing great D on Jennings and Salmons all night. But hey, defense don’t matter, right? ;)

Melvin

May 2nd, 2010
2:43 pm

Man, Joe is struggling with his shot. Is that better?

Sautee

May 2nd, 2010
3:21 pm

Congrats to the Hawks. Harder than it SHOULD have been but they took a gut check and won two elimination games.

Let’s go get the Magic.

Melvin

May 2nd, 2010
3:30 pm

Bring on the Mouse Daddy….

Melvin

May 2nd, 2010
4:15 pm

Nire,

Watching the Lakers/Jazz game, they said Mark Jackson was the Big East defensive player of the year in college…LMAO…

niremetal

May 2nd, 2010
4:21 pm

Melvin,

I think Mateen Cleaves won an award like that too :)

ONTO DISNEY WORLD!!!!!!!!!!

Melvin

May 2nd, 2010
5:47 pm

And neither one could hit a consistent jumpshot to save their lives…

doc

May 2nd, 2010
6:03 pm

fear the deer no longer.

good to get back and find they won handily in seeming control most of the way.

now we get to take on a team that has developed rust and should be easy pickings for our well honed hardened, battle tested and focused hawks. heh heh

Melvin

May 2nd, 2010
6:14 pm

Sloan has his guys playing hard. Wes Matthews, K. Fesenko, Paul Milsap and CJ Miles are not household names but their coach have them performing at max level without two of their starters. Heck, give credit to Skiles for keeping his team competitive with unheralded players such as Ilyasova, L. Mbah a Moute and Delfino. All this has me thinking. What players have Woody turn from a no name to a productive rotational player during his tenure? How about coached somebody up Woody….

Big Ray

May 2nd, 2010
6:39 pm

The Deer Hunter (copyright, MannyT) has done his thing…

Big Ray

May 2nd, 2010
6:41 pm

Melvin ,

The opportunity is there with some of the guys we have on the bench. People keep talking (and rightly so in many cases) about us not having a particularly strong or talented bench. I mean, isn’t that part of the defense for Woody? Well, the opportunity is there…

Working on a new blog…

doc

May 2nd, 2010
8:19 pm

astro:

“Regarding Sekou’s article… we’ve seen this before in other team sports. If there aren’t many options that have been practiced and executed during 87 previous games, is it really a good idea to try to install a new wrinkle in 48 hours?”

yes, a resounding yes, AJ only to add, WTF took you so long?

also seems woody was playing possum a bit when he said there would be nothing new, eh?

i assure you woody cant wait 3 losses before making tweaks and adjustments. afterall AJ, these guys are pros and shoild be coached up to make adjustments moment to moment, tine out to time out; not games.

Big Ray

May 2nd, 2010
8:21 pm

New blog finally up…