In this together

53 wins.

That’s been the answer for any question or challenge in regard to what the Atlanta Hawks tend to do in games. It has worked for 53 wins. Should any of us be surprised at what we saw in game 5, or just disappointed? You would probably get a different answer from fans as you would from players, or coaches for that matter. The problem, of course, is that what has gotten the Hawks to 53 wins in the regular season, does not seem to be getting them to 4 wins in a playoff series. Or maybe I’ve got that backwards. It’s what they’ve managed to overcome for 53 wins that is hurting them now. That “what” seems to be a myriad of things. The usual buzz words are floating around- “energy”, “focus”, “execution”, and a host of others.

Cliches, all of them.

Yet in the midst of our doldrums, we have to remember that the series is not yet over, even if it feels like it is. Not officially, anyway.

Piecing it Together

After winning the first two games, it’s like the Hawks thought they had it all in the bag. Only, that doesn’t make sense when considering how they’ve played on the road this year. They proved they could lose in anybody’s arena, at any time. So they came out flat and disinterested for the most part in game 3, and got a royal spanking for their efforts (or lack thereof). Then came game 4, where they remembered to bring the energy and effort, but forgot execution. Fast forward to game 5, and the execution is there, but not for the entire game, much less when it counted most.

Atlanta just cannot seem to bring the total game all at once. In the regular season, a 3 game losing streak isn’t all that bad. In the regular season, you have time to bounce back. The playoffs are different. Lose three games, and you are on the brink. Lose three in a row and you are all but finished. Only the most mentally tough teams seem to be able to manage this, and even then, not many of them do. Are the Hawks that tough? A big question, and one that may already have the inevitable answer. Only one thing is certain in this series right now, and that would be that the Milwaukee Bucks’ toughness can’t be questioned. Down 0-2, the Bucks stormed back and took the fight right to the Hawks’ doorfront. Then they kicked the door down. Now the fight goes back on the road, in front of a raucous crowd that will cheer every good Bucks play, and jeer every Hawks gaffe. Oh, and they’ll probably have some very special signs made up for Josh Smith.

 

Against all Odds

Remember when this was supposed to be Milwaukee, what with the loss of center Andrew Bogut? The shoe is now on the other foot. Now it’s Atlanta that is trying to beat the odds. The odds that they can win on the road. That they can come from behind, late in a playoff series. They they can play the total game from start to finish.

You would think that an inspiring road win (if it happens) may lead to a triumphant return home, where the Hawks could close things out and head to the second round. But even if that does happen, will it be all that triumphant? Will the Hawks be the better for it? Or will they be tired, disillusioned, and ready prey for the Orlando Magic, possibly even succumbing to a second straight round 2 sweep? Maybe we’re just entertaining dark thoughts, rather than showing faith in our team, as Bucks fans showed faith in theirs (ok, maybe it’s just me with the dark thoughts here).

How about the team? What would their perspective be? Do they have enough moxie, enough heart, to want vengeance? Surely they want to prove that capturing the third seed in the playoffs was more about what they earned and gained, rather than what the Boston Celtics lost. Clearly they would want to show that they are indeed improved, and that 53 regular season wins was no aberration. Having missed the opportunity to do this in games 3, 4, and 5, the Hawks now find themselves with all of this and more on the line in game 6.

A tough lesson before moving on, or a swan song of a supposed bird of prey? Which do we get to see on Friday?

Whichever it is, the Hawks are in this together. Maligned coach, soon-to-be free agent star, and all.

 

 

232 comments Add your comment

Hawk Str8Talk

April 29th, 2010
1:42 am

The thing I’m not sure you realize, but they aren’t in it together. Pieces of this have been apparent all year. The Hawks are talented – talent can breed wins over teams that aren’t as talented as you, but when you have to match cerebral with that talent (which is the essence of playoff success) – the Hawks haven’t shown a good account of themselves at all. And therefore, you have 2-3 going back to Milwaukee. It’s the psychology of the coach, players, management, and even fans who fail to realize what prepares you for playoff success. It’s not one defensive strategy, it’s not one playing rotation, it’s not isolation plays to win games in the 4th quarter…those things have been biting the Hawks for 2 years now. It’s why I’ve said for 2 years on my blog that we are sentenced to 2nd round basketball at BEST. That’s what we are faced with right now…even if we win the series, that won’t change. Wish I believed it would…www.hawkstr8talk.com

Big Ray

April 29th, 2010
2:05 am

hawkstr8talk

“The thing I’m not sure you realize, but they aren’t in it together. Pieces of this have been apparent all year.”

I realize far more than I write. However, I don’t like to blog with a conclusive mindset, regardless of what my thoughts are.

To address the second part of that statement, I’d actually argue that evidence of a “lack of togetherness” was apparent LAST year, and only became moreso as some roles expanded and grew, others were added, some diminished, and some failed to adjust accordingly. This was coming to a head for some time, but it actually took some growth and maturity from certain players for it to really happen. I think you know partially where I’m going with this, and I tell you- it was becoming obvious LAST year, involving a couple of players for certain. We can get into that later.

Having said all of that, the Hawks are in this together. What I mean by that is simple: they will win or lose as a team and coaching staff. Maligned as Woodson is, he wins or loses with this team until this year is over for the Hawks. Same for Joe Johnson, who will not be a free agent until the Hawks are done on the hardwood.

After that, all bets are off. D-Day isn’t here yet, but it’s fast approaching. Might be just a game away (unofficially, but you get the point).

Big Ray

April 29th, 2010
2:08 am

As for the bulk of your post, I agree with several parts, and would even seek to expound upon it. Of course, what you’ve just said has been hashed over by many here, and for quite some time. Longer than 2 years for some…

This summer promises more change (and possibly more than we anticipate…or possibly less), and that may be true regardless of whether we can get out of the first round.

vava74

April 29th, 2010
3:14 am

Charley Rosen @ msn.foxsports.com:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/Atlanta-Hawks-have-talent-but-Milwaukee-Bucks-have-guts

Enjoy everyone! I particularly love the last sentence!

[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Michael Cunningham. Michael Cunningham said: AJC's fan blog: In this together http://bit.ly/dfvaw9 [...]

Big Ray

April 29th, 2010
4:07 am

Vava ,

Definitely a loaded article. Of course, that is what Mr. Rosen gets paid for…

Big Daddy

April 29th, 2010
6:07 am

Big Ray, I will always be a Hawks supporter as I have with all Atlanta teams through the good times and the bad. So, no matter what, I will be cheering them on next year to do the best they can.

That said, I am so disappointed like many of the post from the other columnist and people commenting. Yes, it would be nice to have the Hawks play well in Milwaukee and come back here and win the series. However, given that they have had only one win in 10 tries on the road does not speak well of that possibility. Jamaal would have to have the game of his life and he has been mostly missing during this series, only hitting 4 shots last night “at home”. Joe would have be have his usual good game and Marvin, Josh and Al would have to stop the drive on Jennings by collasping in the paint any time it looks like he is thinking of making a drive. Finally, Mike Bibby, of all people would have to be the hero of the game. Why Mike? Because he has the most playoff experience and is supposed to be the floor general and direct the offense. We brought him here to help with the offense and he did that. Woody pulls him too quickly since we got Jamaal and with Jamall not producing we need him to leave Mike in and let him run the offense.

A lot of people would say Mike is too slow to guard the other teams guards. Adjustments can be made for that. I lived in Charlotte for several years when Mugsy Bogues was the point guard and they made adjustments anytime someone tried to post him up so that he was not a liability on defense. It can be done, but it takes the coaches to recognize it and make the proper changes.

That gets to the crux of the problem. I have been a Woody supporter and have refrain from bashing him. I have made comments that the coaching staff will have to make adjustments and changes on the fly to be successful and I have not seen that. What I have seen is that we get outcoached too many times. Even if the players don’t execute, in the end, it will be the coaches who take the fall for not making, motivating or coercing them into following their plan. I believe Woody and the coaches he has assembled may have reach the peak of their capabilities. I say that with the understanding of how far the team has come with Woody at the helm. Yet, in a time where innovation seems to be necessary, The coaching staff has not made the adjustments and changes necessary. And, the players have not been able to hit their shots down the stretch.

We are playing a team that is without two of their primary starters, one of them an All-Star Center and they have competed against a superiorily talented team. That is coaching. Imagine where we would be if they had Bogut and Redd with Jennings coming off the bench and we had lost Al and Bibby and had to start Zaza and Rook. We would probably be talking, wait until next year right now.

I hope the Hawks actually show up in Milwaukee. This has got to have the players down. But they get paid a lot of money to be professionals and compete. It is the direction they are given that makes the difference between how well they play as a team that makes the difference. In that regard, I hope the coaches show up as well.

O'Brien

April 29th, 2010
7:18 am

Your honor, I present Exhibit A:

Date/Opponent/Hawks 4th quarter points/Result

11/6/2009 Bobcats 14 (L)
11/26/2009 Magic 11 (L)
12/5/2009 Mavericks 16 (W)
12/29/2009 Cavs 10 (L)
12/30/2009 Cavs 16 (L)
1/4/2010 Miami 17 (L)
1/18/2010 Thunder 16 (L)
1/27/2010 Spurs 16 (L)
2/10/2010 Miami 12 (L)
2/19/2010 Suns 14 (L)
2/21/2010 Warriors 14 (L)
3/6/2010 Miami 17 (L)
3/24/2010 Orlando 18 (W)
4/3/2010 Pistons 17 (W)
4/7/2010 Pistons 16 (L)

That is 15 games this year in which the Hawks scored 18 points or less in the fourth quarter. Their record in those games? 3-12.

Whenever we mentioned these kinds of droughts, some people were quick to point out how the Hawks were 4th in offensive efficiency. Well, where has that offensive efficiency gotten us?

On the brink of elimination to a team with a first year HC, a rookie PG, and missing its 2 best players. (By the way, which Bucks starter would start for the Hawks right now?).

From Rosen: “And exactly how did the Hawks try to manifest their spectacular advantage in talent? By running an endless series of isolations — 42 to be exact, which accounted for nearly half of their 83 total shots, which produced 40 points”….”Compare this situation with the Bucks, who ran 17 isos that generated only nine points”.

When the going gets tough, people resort to what they know. When the game gets tight, the Hawks go back to what they do, which makes me think is also what they practice. And when something happens that often, the HC ultimately takes the blame (although JJ and Crawford stunk it up tonight).

O'Brien

April 29th, 2010
7:25 am

* Correction: This is actually Skiles’ second year as HC of the Bucks.

Don't give up

April 29th, 2010
8:44 am

were still going to win

Milwaukee Iron

April 29th, 2010
8:56 am

From the start the Hawks thought the Bucks as nothing more than a bump in the road on their way to the second round, talent does not always equal wins, throw in the disrespect they show to the city, get the fans fired up and here is what you get, 3-2 Bucks lead, and you are one game from elimination. FEAR THE DEER!!

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
9:17 am

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
9:22 am

OB, let’s do the math… 15 quarters against a base of 82 x 4 quarters or 15/328 = 5%. So for a normal day worker like myself, that would be akin to taking my 52 weeks and focusing on less than 3 weeks.

niremetal

April 29th, 2010
9:28 am

Astro,

Congratulations. That is the most astoundingly stupid defense of Woody that I have ever seen.

doc

April 29th, 2010
9:38 am

aj EVERYTHING pointed to the playoffs. either you are ready or you arent. we werent and arent ready because we have only one way to play. simple math. woody hasnt gotten it done and we have al seen this coming. ummm we look like a deer in the headlights. heh heh we got slammed by a running deer instead, broadside and it has damaged the vehicle. i wonder if it is totaled?

never liked the bibby trade for what it cost, essentially chills and liked aj. seems sekou sorta said the same thing. chills was a go getter and a no quitter. kind of a glue guy that got no respect from his elders. probably because he was a whole lot smarter than them and the coach. stanford and the world does that to a guy.

MannyT

April 29th, 2010
9:48 am

Astro,

You minimize the 3 weeks when your boss is shadowing you to do your eval for all the weeks that you did good work, but no one was there.

The Sekou interview was great. Thanks for posting the link. He provides some brutal honesty. It’s not surprising, but it is rarely said.

While it would be easy to tear into Woody after this, until the season is over, I’ll just go with the simple view. I may not like his way, but if he wins, I have to keep my mouth shut. He’s got some work to do on Friday and hopefully on Sunday.

BWAF

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
9:52 am

nire, thank you.

MannyT

April 29th, 2010
9:52 am

doc

How can you put the Chills departure on the Bibby trade? I need you to connect those dots for me.

I can see putting it on Sund’s methods, but not on the Bibby trade. I doubt Sund pays Chills what he wanted if Bibby was never a Hawk. Then again, if Bibby’s never a Hawk, I am not sure that Woody gets that 2nd contract. Not sure that Sund is here either.

I do agree about Chills being a glue guy. Most good teams have one or two.

BWAF

vava74

April 29th, 2010
9:56 am

Sekou’s interview was awesome.

Astro, thank you for posting it, in particular because it backs all my thoughts about the Hawks and goes against yours.

The fact that only Zaza and RandMo attended the handing over of the 6th man award was for me a huge shock. I thought that they were a tight knit group.

Maybe they were closer and the recent loses have caused this breakup, however, this is inexcusable.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
10:05 am

doc, I obviously was a big Chill fan from day one… it was clear that he brought both tangible AND intangible benefits to this team. Ball movement was less of an issue when Chill was here in part because he moved without the ball and created easy scoring opportunities. Too many fans focused on his shooting stroke instead of his 55%+ FG% and double-digit production off the bench. I didn’t see the value in Anthony Johnson that Sekou referenced, but obviously, Sekou was in a great position to see the dynamic back in those days. I kind of expected him to mention Ty Lue, but he went with AJ.

I guess I’ve written way too many performance evaluations and have attended far too many HR-sponsored courses about employee evaluations to bring a fan’s sensibility to the discussion. I’m all for judging a coach based on playoff performance… just can’t quite see using arbitrary piece parts that equal a 5% sample to say if a guy is good or not.

If Sund chooses to let Woody walk because of poor playoff performance, I’m good with that. One could easily argue that our best playoff performance happened 3 playoff series ago against Boston. And judging an employee during the company’s most important period is absolutely fair. But I wouldn’t use a random sample of 5% during regular season games to say that he is not the right coach.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
10:13 am

Vava, it really doesn’t. I’m all for using the playoffs to evaluate a coach, just don’t support some of the negative comments made during a 53-win regular season. And I have always believed that this team lacks player leadership… I have said that ad nauseum. And I truly believe that if we hire Red Auerbach from the grave and we don’t have a player who can lead his peers, that our ceiling will remain lower than the talent suggests.

NBA history shows a clear relationship between talent, quality coaching AND player leadership. One can choose to focus on any one of those aspects, but the reality is that all 3 are required to truly “do something special”.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
10:21 am

I think RandMo thought that there would be some food at the SMOY ceremony. In the pictures, it looked like he came with fork in hand.

Melvin

April 29th, 2010
10:26 am

Astro,

Nice link. Some great insight by Sekou. Charles Barkley interview was good as well. I like some of the points that he brought up in reference to Joe Johnson. This summer will be interesting from management down to the players. I think a shakeup is coming.

O'Brien

April 29th, 2010
10:38 am

doc,

I’m with Manny. I dont think getting Bibby had anything to do with Chills. Sund never thought that highly of Chills, and even implied he was a utility player.

I also get the impression that although Woody had him on the court at the end of games and gave him PT, Chills wanted to be the starter. If I’m mis-remembering let me know, but Chills made a comment along the lines of once Woody has a certain role for you, he didnt think Woody was flexible enough at changing your role.

AJ,

I am not using a random sample of 5% to suggest that he is not the right coach, or that he is not good at his job. But when that behavior is repeated at the most crucial time of the season, then it becomes an issue.

I will try an analogy (I dont know if I can pull it off though).

Imagine if the CEO is visiting your branch, and your boss has emphasized to you and your team, how important it is, because the CEO will be observing your behavior, and will use it to make a decision on your future employment with the company.

During his visit, he notices an unfavorable type of behavior. And when he reviews your file, he noticed that you behave the same way 5% of the time. Should he ignore that 5% sample, combined with his own personal observations, along with the stockholders observations?

I agree that its not all on the coach. But as we know, we can’t replace all the team members, so the easiest thing to do is to replace the coach, and make some tweaks to the roster.

I enjoyed the Sekou interview. He said when he asked Woody about adjustments, Woody said ‘we are not going to change what we do. Guys just need to play harder’. Typical Woody response.

From Sekou Smith on nba.com’

“We’ll just have to go up to Milwaukee and see what we can come up with,” Johnson said.

Sekou writes ‘Does that sound like a plan to you? Didn’t think so’.

Good stuff Sekou.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
10:47 am

OB, your example sounds more like a playoffs than a sample of the regular season. Your regular season example doesn’t involve “life/death” situations… as evidenced by their 3rd seeding. I don’t equate a Janaury game against the Thunder to a visit from the CEO.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
10:51 am

Sorry, OB, I re-read your analogy… if my 5% is bad compared to top 3 performance on the other 95%, then while he may say something, I actually expect him to hand over some stock options because chances are, I’m bringingin more revenue thanmost of my co-workers. Because my guess is that CEO had a bad 5% when he was coming up through the ranks also.

Lastly, what would be considered an acceptable rate if 5% is bad? 2%? 1%? Seems like that would be good to know when making an evaluation, right?

niremetal

April 29th, 2010
11:27 am

Astro,

I can’t believe you’re still pushing that load of manure. Your analogies from the world of 9-5 jobs are, as usual, completely off-base. In the NBA, the fourth quarter is the time of game where the most coaching has to be done. Players play harder then than they do during the rest of the game. Dealing with fouls and clock management makes tactics much, much more important. Each possession is contested and strategized more carefully. So it’s absolutely idiotic to pretend that all parts of the game are created equal.

niremetal

April 29th, 2010
11:29 am

Seriously, you sound like an idiot every time you start talking about your job as if it is comparable to coaching or playing in the NBA.

vava74

April 29th, 2010
12:17 pm

nire,

a bit on the rough side, but well put anyhow.

First, we are not talking about a random 5% sample, but a sample of “stress situations” which is when you see what people are made of.

This sample alone allowed a pretty good extrapolation on how the Hawks would fare in the playoffs.

The sample is SIGNIFICANT and carried a very simple lesson: Woody does not know enough coaching to guide a team when things get tough.

If you want a stupid work/daily life analogy, I’ll put it this way:

Imagine that the Hawks are firemen. During the year, in normal daily life situations, they are fairly competent: take cats from tree tops, break an occasional door, put away small fires and an occasional big but non complicated fire here and there.

However, in a real nasty fire situation, they lack the knowledge to react properly under pressure. Have poor coordination and only know how to use water to put away “solids’ based” fires.

When they face a fire where there is an oily and liquid element (and you cannot use water), they continue to use water because their chief says: it worked with the other fires, it must work with this one as well! Just put more effort in it and get more hoses flowing.

What happens? Water (switching D) spreads the burning oil and they all die.

That’s the Hawks!

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
12:18 pm

nire, again, I thank you.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
12:27 pm

Does anyone think that with some research, we could find all kind of good samples and data related to a 53-win season? I certainly won;t put forth the effort, not after being a .400 playoff team right now… but that’s the problem with a 5% sample against a team that lost 35% of their games. No doubt, one could find problems under the microscope… I’m fairly certain that the Lakers found issues in their regular season losses last year also.

And regardling last night specifically (in relation to lack of 4th quarter offensive execution/strategy), I’m of the opinion that giving up 30 points means far more than scoring 18. If we lost a 9 point lead with 4 minutes left and we lost the game by 4, doesn’t that equate to a 39 point pace for the Bucks on a per quarter bases? Yet, we’re using poor 4th quarter offense to discuss last night’s loss?

Lastly, I will most certainly defend a 53-win team… I just can’t defend a .400 playoff team.

niremetal

April 29th, 2010
12:31 pm

The problem, AJ, is that it was predictable that the team’s collapses in the 4th quarter would repeat themselves in the playoffs. During the regular season, teams only really play their hardest when it’s close and late. During the playoffs, teams play that way for most-to-all of every game. So how you perform in the 4th quarter during close regular season games has particularly good predictive value for the playoffs.

It’s not like anyone around here ever said that or anything. Oh wait – people did? Several people? Repeatedly?

Nevermind.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
12:33 pm

Vava, I’m not saying that 4th quarter issues aren’t a problem… I just wouldn’t give it as much weight as others. If your fire chief showed no signs of learning and getting better with fighting different types of fire, i’d be concerned. But I persoanlly saw this team become much beter from the beginning to the end. It doesn’t mean that we are where we’d like to be, but there was growth. And unlike you, I do believe that in some cases (if not many), the chief is telling them to throw sand on the fire and some of the fire fighters are throwing water regardless… or they throw the sand but miss the fire.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
12:37 pm

nire, but are there no examples of good late and close execution or have we simply not taken the time to search for them? I know I haven’t. Maybe there aren’t, although one would think that a 53-win team with some exciting last minute victories must have executed in late/close games at some point. But maybe not.

An above .500 record against winning teams is another good predictor. I’d venture that there are others.

Let’s not sit here and act like we’re debating an exhasutive set of data for and against the issue. Wer’re debating a one-sided view.

niremetal

April 29th, 2010
12:50 pm

AJ,

O’Brien posted the number of times the Hawks scored 18 or fewer points in the 4th quarter. Why don’t you go back and look to see how many times we held opponents to 18 or fewer points in the 4th quarter, hmmm?

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
12:58 pm

nire, I have ZERO desire to defend a 53-win team after a decade of futility. Not to mention that the best way to conduct any analyses would be to benchmark our team’sperformance against the best in class. And I most certainly have no desire to spend my time analyzing our 4th quarter woes/successes against the Lakers, Celtics, Spurs and other recent title winners.

And who defined 18 as the standard of excellence anyway?

Just admit that we’re debating using an imperfect set of data and assumptions. While discussing the warts of a team that won 65% of their games. Pardon me if I’m not interested in opening an Excel spreadsheet to have that debate.

niremetal

April 29th, 2010
1:07 pm

Admit that people have been saying all season that we have no offensive gameplan beyond ISO-ball, that it caused problems before, and that it’s causing more important problems now.

But you won’t. Whatever, AJ. You have an incredible talent for talking out of your butt, changing the subject, and addressing caricatures of other people’s arguments instead of actual arguments. Like Woody, you’ll never change.

doc

April 29th, 2010
1:09 pm

15 mil went ti bibby, it was destined they werent going to pay chills legit money for what he delivered.

aj and manny t, simple math, when the trade was made i even commented to that effect. allocation of funds within the cap manny t, how could they spend more on chills even if they wanted to on a budget? aj, where and why did roachy go and who did we get in return on the braves? compare that with chills and mo …. 8 mil vs 2 mil almost exact the same costs, no?

look backs to the wall, let us see where it gets us, only dont come up with comments like that aj. the team had to be ready to go in the playoffs, period. it doesnt matter what they did during the season, everyone knows it if they lay an egg aj, maybe except an apologist like you. again let us see what happens as manny t says. if he escapes then i like houdini as my coach.

O'Brien

April 29th, 2010
1:11 pm

AJ,

I remember earlier in the year, we had a discussion that how the Hawks played against teams like the Knicks does not matter as much, because teams like the Knicks wont be in the playoffs.

However, those games in which we scored 18 points or less in the fourth, were against 10 different teams. Of those 10 teams, 8 of them made the playoffs. So to me, although it was only a 5% sample, the probability that we would do the same thing in the playoffs was higher because of how badly we executed against playoff teams during the regular season once the game gets tight.

That being said, Hawks have a chance to man up on Friday night, and win game 6. And I will be rooting for them all the way (even if that means Woody keeps his job).

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
1:18 pm

nire, by admitting that people around here have said that our offense is lacking is to assume that people around here are subject matter experts on the issue. Sure, I have read those arguments, I have also read arguments that the ASG are cheap. And we know that you refuse to accept that so do I need to accept the opinions that I don’t hold true just because of sheer volume?

You want me to admit that we are an iso-based offense? Is that what you’re looking for? I don’t think so because that argument is easily defeated. Do you want me to say that our late/close offense relies too heavily on iso, then yes, it does. But again, without knowing how often comparable plays are run for the best-in-class teams, it essentially leaves me judging without a standard. Have you ever judged anything without a standard? Of course not, you often use great websites to define the standard… so why should we deviate from that now?

If the argument is that late.close performance is an indicator of playoff success, I would say tha makes perfect sense to me. It’s certainly not the lone predictor but it is likely a very good one. Is it as good as defeating a team 2 of 3 times? I wouldn’t think so.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
1:20 pm

doc, go back and look, I’m not the one who brought regular season data into today’s discussion. I agree with you, that regular season is old news… but I’m not the one who brought it to today’s liar’s table meeting.

Astro Joe

April 29th, 2010
1:22 pm

And how is it that I am “talking out of my butt” when I suggest the need for a baseline which is a frequently used tactic by you to invalidate opinions? Riddle me that nireman?

niremetal

April 29th, 2010
1:27 pm

I didn’t say you were talking out of your butt on this particular occasion, AJ. Just that it’s something you’ve shown a repeated talent for.

niremetal

April 29th, 2010
1:31 pm

And by the way – when I respond to people who say ASG is cheap, I actually do research first and find -the baseline. I don’t attack people for not providing a baseline and then call it a day. If I had just said “aha, but what do other teams spend?” and left it at that, I’d be like you. But I do more than that. I actually go out and post what other teams DO actually spend. Telling somebody they are looking at things out of context is pretty useless if you don’t provide an alternative context in which to view it.

doc

April 29th, 2010
1:35 pm

ob, maybe some of that was implied in the interview with sekou for the team and the coach.

anyway as ray asys he is a high draft pick we didnt get much milage out of, seems to be the way the asg operates.

doc

April 29th, 2010
2:03 pm

aj, good fodder for discussion. no problem with it at all. we are all disappointed expectations havent been met none more than the guys in the locker room that ran out of there before any interviews could be made for whatever reason. i really hope they pull it together and rally around ehtmselves because with fans booing that is all they have right now. should be interesting drama on friday night.

incidentally, as far as rosen, the bucks threw in some hard fouls and it was called good playoff basketball. zaza didnt seem to really do more than kurt did on several occasions with emphasis and zaza got ball as much as body. cheap shot it wasnt. sorry to see the refs call that one and defer in milwaukee in similar circumstances. just the same it had to be done.

i think we have reaped what we have sewn and that is what woody must realize. the nire try harder is the only response woody has even if it is the wrong thing i might add is the woody way. so it does not shock me that a team has done to us what the knicks did, the lowly knicks. the blueprint was there and the bucks were the perfect team to do it with a quick point guard to rattle our cages. but no, we are not going to have to change anything is the woody way. that is why i have lost interest in this team and am not choosing to watch live basketball this playoff season, something about discretionary spending.

Melvin

April 29th, 2010
2:05 pm

Not only are the Hawks players (and coaches) are at odds. Now the Hawks fans are at each others necks…..LOL. This team is driving all of us crazy and I wouldn’t be surprise if they take us on another emotional roller coaster tomorrow night and beat the Bucks…

niremetal

April 29th, 2010
2:13 pm

Melvin,

I’m seriously giving 50:50 odds on that game. Vegas currently has the Hawks as 2-point favorites.

O'Brien

April 29th, 2010
2:44 pm

I brought regular season stats to the table to establish a pattern of behavior, especially against playoff teams. I will add this, and then I’ll leave it alone.

The Hawks played 44 games against playoff teams (7 teams in the East, 8 in the West. For the record, I did not go through the schedule, but I assumed 2 games for each West team, and 4 games against the East teams). In 12 of those games, the Hawks failed to score more than 18 points.

Based on those ‘nimbers’, whenever the Hawks played a team that made the playoffs, they failed to score more than 18 fourth quarter points 27% of the time. Is that a better sample size then?

doc,

The Bucks got major contributions from their rookie PG, who is quick, but has a questionable shot selection. On the Hawks bench, you will find a rookie PG who is quick, but not a good shooter. And in the next round, Nelson is waiting (He went for 30+ in 2 of the games against the Bobcats).

Melvin

April 29th, 2010
4:00 pm

So much is made of Teague jumpshot but there are plenty point guards in this league that are effective without a reliable jumpshot. Rondo, Harris, Paul, Rose, Parker, Kidd just too name a few. Teague had 25pts and 15ast in his only games where he played 30+ mins. I’m not saying we should expect that type of performance from him every game but only to show he capable of being productive when getting a fair opportunity. Similiar to what Sekou is saying in his interview.

Did anybody else caught the graphic last night during the game where they showed the coaches who have COACHED UP their teams this year? Needless to say Woody was not on their list. McMillan, OKC coach, Sloan and Skiles may there list.