Hawks take first swing at old foe
Today, the Hawks get a shot at an old foe, an old adversary that’s been around for as long as anyone can remember. One they’ve never been able to best, at least in more recent years.
Are we talking about the Lakers? Not precisely. We’re talking about….THE ROAD.
While this year’s early west coast swing isn’t quite as daunting as last year’s visit to the Texas Triangle (which was actually almost 20 games into the season), it’s still….THE ROAD.
Rick Sund and Mike Woodson talk about the Hawks winning 50 games or more, and how doing better on the road is the second, and perhaps more pivotal key to doing just that. Well, if the Hawks want to change their fortunes away from home, now is the time to do it. Most teams are not quite in fine form this early in the season, and have some inconsistency issues. Mighty San Antonio proved that by avering 113 points in near-20 point wins over Sacramento and New Orleans, contrasted with a 92-85 loss to Chicago. While entirely explainable, consider that Chicago beat a top Western team, then got blown out by the Celtics. And the Lakers? Well, after getting an unimpressive win against their ugly stepsisters, they went and lost to a Mavericks squad that couldn’t beat the Washington Wizards…who lost to…you know…the Hawks.
Bottom line here? The Lakers are the reigning champs, but they are beatable this early in the season for certain. And, if the Hawks want to up that road win total this season, then starting right here, right now, is as good an idea as any. Momentum means so much, and a win against the Lakers could lead to more against the next few opponents.
But enough of that, let’s get into a bit of game breakdown. To do that, we’re going to take a walk down memory lane , and then talk about which opposing player may cause the most problems for the Hawks in each west coast game. We’ll leave the Charlotte Bobcats for later.
HAWKS VS. LAKERS
What you might remember
Lamar Odom getting 20 rebounds, and Josh Smith getting none. Sure, Smith came back and played much better in the last meeting of the two teams last year, but it’s arguable that the Lakers were on cruise control by then, and that was in Atlanta. The embarrassing performance came at the Staples Center. Let’s not also forget Joe Johnson shooting 6-17 because he was basically by himself out there, and not getting ANY help from ANYBODY. These two guys are arguably the most pivotal players on this team right now, for both similar and different reasons. You better believe the Lakers know it, too.
Game maker/breaker nomination
Ron Artest is my pick here. Everybody knows who Kobe Bryant is, and what he can do. Gasol and Odom are familiar as well. Artest is the new guy in town, and he is one tough customer. In a way, he’s very often what we want Josh Smith to be: a tough defender who is also a consistent enough scorer at a high enough level to be a second or third option every single night. At any rate, Artest will be a tougher, if not THE toughest swing forward that Josh Smith, Marvin Williams, and Joe Johnson may face all season. Make no mistake, all three aforementioned guys will see some Artest action during this game. And Artest is capable of disrupting each of those guys’ games….on either end of the court, at that.
HAWKS VS. BLAZERS
What you might remember
Brandon Roy taking over the game with his one-on-one plays late in the fourth quarter. It was nothing, if not embarrassing. Brandon Roy is one of the best in the game right now, but what he did to us in Portland was just plain nasty. And that tall guy they call “soft”? Well he (Lamarcus Aldridge) helped set Roy up by being more than a credible threat (24 points, 11 rebounds on 11-20 shooting) himself. Yes, I know. Joe Johnson destroyed those guys with a 35 point outburst when we got back home. But we’re not talking about what happens on home court.
Game maker/breaker nomination
If he were healthy, I’d might be tempted to go out on a limb and maaaaybe pick Nick Batum. I’ll explain somewhere other than this blog post if you’re interested. But Batum is out, so I’m stuck between more popular and sensible options like Travis Outlaw and Lamarcus Aldridge. Why Outlaw? Because his shooting range and size make him dangerous, and McMillan knows just how to use him against us. Outlaw can put up 20 against you without pause, and he can do it from the bench. Why Aldridge? Easy. He’s the Yin to Roy’s Yang. Or perhaps vice versa, I don’t know. Either way, he’s a near 7-footer who, while lacking the range of a Troy Murphy, is a superior athlete with a better midrange and inside game. Why NOT Roy? Same reason why NOT Kobe: we already know what he can and will most likely do.
HAWKS VS. KINGS
What you might remember
I don’t know about y’all, but outside of Al Horford’s 18 and 18 performance, and Mike Bibby’s torrid shooting…I don’t remember much about this game. Kevin Martin’s 32 point, 11 rebound performance was certainly nothing to sneeze at, of course. Oh wait, I do remember something. Something about Sacramento fans saying that Bibby was trash, and he only had about 1 good game in every 5 games. Huh. I guess they figured out which game was his good one….
Game maker/breaker nomination
It would be easy to go with Kevin Martin, seeing as how he’s far and away the team’s most productive player and leading scorer. But…his input is more or less expected (especially considering he’ll take every shot he can), and so I’ll go with Tyreke Evans as my darkhorse. Why Evans? Well, he’s a very talented lead guard at 6′6″, and well…the Hawks have had a history of not taking a rookie, first year, or second year player seriously enough. Remember Corey Brewer’s 18 rebounds? More notably, there was Al Thornton’s 31 point performance against us. Evans probably won’t be a franchise savior for the Kings this season, but sooner or later he will break out. We’d prefer it not be against the Hawks.
ON THE FLIP SIDE
So, we’ve talked about the opposition. But what about the Hawks themselves? That’s where YOU, my fellow Hawks fans, come in! Which Hawks players do you see as the keys to victory in these next three road games? Oh, and don’t hesitate to take a crack (or several) at the analysis above, or anything else on your mind where these games are concerned.
NO PLACE LIKE HOME
I don’t know whether to be jealous or not. I didn’t get to the first two home games of the season, but the snacks were plentiful, the seating comfortable, and the conversation amicable (thanks go to Sautee for doing enough whooping and hollering for us both during the Wizards game…I had a standing order from the sleeping wife to not holler at the top of my lungs every time the Hawks made a good play, or the refs a bad call).
But for those of you who made it to Phillips Arena, how nice was it to be back in the “Highlight Factory?” I can’t wait to get back there and take a stroll to the Pretzel Stand, or chat some of you up at the Taco Mac. Good times are ahead, of that I’m sure.
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Guides
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2010 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
268 comments Add your comment
niremetal
November 1st, 2009
10:37 pm
From the last blog (because it’s too good to miss):
You can’t make this stuff up. Manu Ginobili hit a bat out of midair that flew from the rafters onto the court during a game. On Halloween.
Here’s the picture. And here’s the story.
niremetal
November 1st, 2009
10:43 pm
Lakers key: Bynum/Odom
Blazers key: Aldridge (if Josh can keep him under wraps, the Blazers will have a tough time establishing an inside game on offense – and that, in turn, depends on Woody not stubbornly sticking to the switching D)
Kings key: I agree – Evans
kirkinga
November 1st, 2009
10:48 pm
Too much jump shooting so far for the Hawks. Somebody needs to drive to the basket.
Reggie (The Bird and Indian)
November 1st, 2009
10:48 pm
Joe looks good tonight. He’s got a little fire.
Reggie (The Bird and Indian)
November 1st, 2009
10:56 pm
He’s feeling it!
Reggie (The Bird and Indian)
November 1st, 2009
10:57 pm
WOW!
niremetal
November 1st, 2009
10:58 pm
Holy sh!t…
doc
November 1st, 2009
10:59 pm
nire thanks for the bat show. quite a sight.
no taking up for jj tonight. he is on fire. already made phil make a change to put artest on him. this is what i remember about jj when he got here, want to see it some more.
niremetal
November 1st, 2009
11:04 pm
JJ was looking great, but LOTS of credit has to go to the other 4 guys on the floor, all of whom were making Kobe fight through multiple screens to stay with JJ. In the long haul, I don’t want to see JJ in a shootout with Kobe…but damn….
niremetal
November 1st, 2009
11:07 pm
Always ticks me off when I saw what Jamal did there – didn’t get a call on one end, and complained to the ref instead of running back on D. And Josh was stuck guarding Kobe as a result…
Wabe
November 1st, 2009
11:10 pm
JJ pretty much put his signature on that first quarter. But someone else on the Hawks needs to step up. Can’t go back to the old ways of putting it all on JJ’s shoulders.
Also must limit TO’s. Too many TO’s in that first quarter.
Wabe
November 1st, 2009
11:12 pm
The TO’s…
Gotta take care of that rock.
Big Ray
November 1st, 2009
11:13 pm
Good gracious. Joe is on FIRE. Love to see him get a 40-point game, with two exceptions: 1)Not if the Hawks lose, and 2) Not if he has to play 40-some odd minutes to get it.
I agree with Wabe , somebody has to step up as well, rather than tempt Woody…
Big Ray
November 1st, 2009
11:14 pm
Nire ,
I caught that on NBA.com. Too funny. Ol’ boy’s got a mean left hook, eh?
niremetal
November 1st, 2009
11:16 pm
Why has been JJ been off the floor for so long after the start he had? I want to see JJ get fewer minutes, but I want those minutes to be taken when he’s NOT scoring 18 points in 9 minutes…
Wabe
November 1st, 2009
11:21 pm
Just a thought, I understand Luke Walton has size on Crawford, but why double? Not good basketball IQ to me…
niremetal
November 1st, 2009
11:25 pm
I can see it now. Woody will cite this as why he should neverrest JJ instead of figuring out that he needs to make better decisions on when to rest JJ.
Big Ray
November 1st, 2009
11:38 pm
The good news: We’re not losing the battle on the glass, we’re hitting free throws, and JJ looks nastier than Kobe does.
The bad news: We’re losing the battle of turnovers, and the Lakers are shooting better from the field, and the arc.
Big Ray
November 1st, 2009
11:40 pm
Nire ,
Don’t say that out loud!
Big Ray
November 1st, 2009
11:43 pm
Ick. Second quarter a little less competitive than the first.
Backcourt doing all the heavy lifting.
Frontcourt reserves playing as well or better than the starters, and that isn’t saying much.
Wabe
November 1st, 2009
11:45 pm
Didn’t like the way we finished that half. Some really bad shots and then struggled to transition back on defense giving the Lakers some easy buckets.
Gotta tighten up the defense in the second half and limit the TO’s. I know they’ve got size inside, but we really need to attack the basket and continue to draw some fouls. That should keep this thing tight going into the 4th.
Big Ray
November 1st, 2009
11:52 pm
Amen, Wabe ….
Big Ray
November 2nd, 2009
12:07 am
Wow. Bibby is serious. Love to see it.
Al and Josh playing the assist-to-turnover game. Not good, fellas…
Wabe
November 2nd, 2009
12:09 am
That’s not what I meant when I said tighten up the DEF.
And common REF, there was definately contact down there with Horford.
niremetal
November 2nd, 2009
12:10 am
It was a slow downhill progression from the moment Woody pulled JJ when he was at the hottest he’s been in a long, long time. Incredible.
Big Ray
November 2nd, 2009
12:12 am
Al working the boards, but if it wasn’t for JJ, he wouldn’t have any help.
Wabe
November 2nd, 2009
12:13 am
2 big offensive boards for Odom already…
Gotta clean up on the glass.
Wabe
November 2nd, 2009
12:13 am
Another one…
niremetal
November 2nd, 2009
12:17 am
It’s remarkable. I will never understand this. Woody pulls starters when they’re hot and leaves them in when they’re ice cold.
Wabe
November 2nd, 2009
12:20 am
Man, after keeping it pretty tight for 2 1/2 quarters, the Hawks have lost their composure. Too many easy buckets for LA, and too many turnovers for our Hawks.
It seems every bucket LA has gotten are easy uncontested fastbreaks or right there in the paint.
It’s getting so ugly it’s hard to watch. The turnovers are really pathetic. You’d think Woody would’ve stressed that at halftime.
Wabe
November 2nd, 2009
12:22 am
On top of that, they’ve settled for too many jumpers. I understand the REFS aren’t blowing the whistle, but you’ve got to continue to attack the basket. This holds especially true when the perimeter game is as ice cold as it is.
niremetal
November 2nd, 2009
12:23 am
They swarmed JJ and Crawford, and once again, the Hawks had no Plan B for when the isolation plays weren’t working.
Wabe
November 2nd, 2009
12:24 am
Joe Smith played some good minutes in that first half. Really surprised we haven’t seen him here in the 2nd half.
Wabe
November 2nd, 2009
12:25 am
Disregard that last post. He finally checked in here with less than a minute left here in the third.
Big Ray
November 2nd, 2009
12:26 am
I’d sit JJ right about now. Let him rest, we are NOT going to win this game, Woody, and the man need not work his butt of for no reason. Let the reserves get some time, tinker with a different lineup (perhaps letting Collins or somebody else play would help, Marvin and Josh aren’t getting a damn thing done), etc.
niremetal
November 2nd, 2009
12:28 am
Yup.
Wabe
November 2nd, 2009
12:29 am
This is the 2nd game in a row that the Hawks have come out and put together a poor 3rd quarter effort. We saw it at home vs. Washington and it happened again tonite. Tonites 3rd quarter really killed any chance of our Hawks pulling one out in LA.
niremetal
November 2nd, 2009
12:32 am
We’ve only forced the Lakers into 8 turnovers. Al and Josh have committed 9 by themselves – and at least 3 of those that I’ve seen were them trying to force the ball to JJ. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! When will Woody make adjustments?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
niremetal
November 2nd, 2009
12:42 am
Um…WHY is JJ back out there? Night folks…time to get ready for work.
MannyT
November 2nd, 2009
12:47 am
4th quarter gut check–Is our 2nd unit good enough to turn a blowout into something competitive?
BWAF
MannyT
November 2nd, 2009
12:50 am
So much for that 2nd unit thing…and the 1st team did so well that they have earned their 4th quarter time? hmmm
It is getting closer. WWWD–What will Woody do?
BWAF
Big Ray
November 2nd, 2009
1:02 am
Joe outrebounded everybody but Lamar Odom, and matched Al Horford in that category. He also shot 50% from the field and dished out 4 assists, with just one turnover.
His approach to this game is one of the few things that DIDN’T hurt us tonight.
Big Ray
November 2nd, 2009
1:28 am
Ugh.
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.
Joe was nearly the only bright spot. After a blazing hot first quarter, Woody yanked him and things got a bit out of hand entering the half. After that, Joe just tried to help, for all the good it did us. He played great, no doubt about it. 50% shooting, 9 boards, 4 assists, 1 turnover.
Josh played crappy. 7 assists and 2 steals aren’t going to make up for not attacking the rim, 5 measley rebounds, and 5 turnovers. Going to the jumper when you never tried hard enough at attacking is very stupid.
Marvin. I don’t want to talk about it. All I’m going to say is he justified Woody’s decision to play Crawford 30 minutes.
Al did some decent work on the boards, but he also was less than pleasing elsewhere. Instead of being a big contributor to the team’s assist totals, he was a big contributor to the turnover totals. Ouch. Never got into a rhythm offensively, due to a variety of factors. Foul trouble didn’t help, either.
Bibby actually played well, at least offensively. I wasn’t enamored of his defense, but he tried to help Joe with the counterpunching. Lord knows nobody else was, aside from Jamal Crawford.
Speaking of which, Jamal was anemic on “D”, but I also don’t expect a cat to change it’s stripes overnight. On offense, he got his buckets, and a few trips to the line helped to make up for some ill-advised 3-point attempts. But he also contributed to the big plate of turnovers that we served up to the Lakers, adding 4 of his own to the total.
Joe Smith was a bit of help from the bench, and Jeff Teague looked good in mop-up minutes. Beyond that? Not much to be happy about.
We only lost by 8, so it wasn’t a total blowout like the Orlando preseason game, even though we were down by 20 or so for a while.
There’s a saying: “when faced with adversity, people often do not rise to the occasion, but are reduced to their level of training.” I would contend that the very best rise to the occasion, while the rest are reduced, but the bulk of this is all too true for the Hawks. You can guess where I’m going with that one….
Big Ray
November 2nd, 2009
1:30 am
MannyT ,
If you ask me, the bench made the final score look more competitive, if nothing else. I’ll hand them that, and most of that credit will go to Mr. Teague, with an added dose coming from Mr. Crawford.
Big Ray
November 2nd, 2009
1:30 am
Nire ,
Your guess is as good as mine….
kirkinga
November 2nd, 2009
2:10 am
The Hawks lost because their frontline was outplayed by the Laker’s bigger more physical frontline. This is not news. There were also too many jumpers taken (and missed) by the bigs at the start of the game. This set an ominous tone for the game. No way our starting bigs should only have gotten 5 freethrow attempts for the entire game. There were opportunities to drive that were not taken even when the basket was just a few feet away.
Second, Kobe played only 2 minutes more than JJ but got twice the number of shots. He made almost as many as JJ took. JJ shot a tick better. If everyone is serious about JJ playing decreased minutes then there are some nights were others must fill the scoring void.
Add these two up and you get a loss. On the bright side, those worried about minutes played should be pleased. The Laker’s starters played heavier minutes, they played the number of minutes that would make some howl had the Hawk’s starters played as long.
Oh well, let’s see how the team responds to a loss.
Go Hawks!
Big Ray
November 2nd, 2009
5:56 am
Well said, Kirk .
vava74
November 2nd, 2009
9:25 am
My take on yesterday’s game:
I think that this time everyone around here missed the focal point of the problem, including – this is a surprise – niremetal.
Everyone contributed with bits n’ bobs which have to be, in my opinion, nit picked with care in order to determine the root of the problem and eliminate what is irrelevant.
Woody’s role:
I will start by analyzing JJ’s hot hand and Woody’s decision to take him out of the game.
In my opinion Woody was spot on with his decision: Phil Jackson is a genius who knows that when the Hawks fall in love with the jump shot, they are very easy to beat once you “turn on” the defense on JJ.
So, Phil “invited” us to shoot from outside, playing JJ (who got hot early) and Bibby (who did not get hot early) soft, but keeping the paint protected.
Consequences? The team entered into jump shooting mode and people, let us be frank, this was not Woody’s fault.
So, why Woody took out JJ?
He understood that if we continued to ride JJ, he would get tired and SOONER OR LATER the Lakers would change their strategy and would tighten the defense on him completely putting us out of the game.
Any team depending so badly from just one hot hand seldom wins the game, in particular away from home and with the refereeing that we see in the NBA.
So, by taking JJ out of the game, Woody tried to, and succeeded to some extent, keep us in the game involving other players and breaking our JJ dependency.
In particular, I think Woody was trying to get the game back to the front court and to get Crawford hot so we could, later in the game, have two threats instead of just one.
Where I concede that Woody is/was wrong is on the switching defense: we cannot use this all the time, specially when we are facing a team like the Lakers who have a slow PG which Bibby should be able to defend at least moderately well.
So, what happened??? Same old sh*t, that is what happened…
In particular: J-Smoove
What happened was what typically happens to the Hawks: J-Smoove reverted back to his childish and egotistical mode, envious of JJ’s hot hand, he started breaking plays, not entering the paint and shooting brick after brick.
J-Smoove was the main culprit that we did not have any inside game and was making shots that should have been reserved to Marvin (another sleep walking night).
How can you have any degree of success when you only have one player in the paint and everyone else in the perimeter??? Is this Woody’s fault? I can guarantee you that Woody’s instructions do not preview shooting from the outside after 1 pass, not hitting the boards, not driving, …
People around here gave little importance to J-Smoove’s voicing his opinions in the huddle during the media day questioning a play Woody designed. Well, that was a sample of Josh’s disruptive behavior.
The problem lies precisely on the fact that J-Smoove could be the cornerstone for our success if he realized what he can do and what he cannot do.
When we suffered those 18-0 in the 3rd period, there was (amongst other mistakes by other players) J-Smoove with 2 TOs, one by taking the ball up court as if he was “the man” and with a lazy pass to JJ.
Yes, other players underachieved (Marvin, Al, …) and JJ went 1-8 in the second half, however, this all comes as consequence to the above.
Let us imagine that we did not have those 2 TO: 18-0 could immediately go down to 14-4 (quite different) and eventually the Lakers’ momentum would have been broken… maybe the 18-0 would have been 10-6 or 10-8…
We know that Zaza will have his 1 or 2 dum TO’s, however, we should expect that Josh diminishes/eliminates his, specially in light of the fact that we all want him to become an All-Star.
More J-Smoove In retrospective:
If we look back to the Indy game, J-Smoove had an APPARENTLY good game.
However, as I had already pointed out, during the first half, whilst he was “hot”, Troy Murphy almost matched his points (only -2) and assists (only -1) whilst having a huge advantage in rebounding (+6 or 7) and the result was that we were up by only 1 at the break.
It was only when J-Smoove started to work down low defensively and stopped trying to be the center of the attention that we pulled away and secured the win.
Against the Wiz he had a very good overall game, however, with that game his mind set reverted back to the childish self he typically is, which is to think that he is the man.
JJ’s words after the game were, in my opinion, correct and mainly directed to J-Smoove and to Zaza (I would not have voiced them publicly though).
Marvin:
People complain – justifiably – about Marvin, however, we have to realize that there was no ball movement and no inside-outside game without which Marvin does not get the open looks he needs to shoot the rock or to drive and get to the line.
I strongly believe that J-Smoove is to blame for some of Marvin’s lack of involvement since he was breaking plays, stepping into his areas and was taking the shots which should have been reserved to Marvin (whilst neglecting to hit the boards and working down low).
Notwithstanding the above, let us all hope that J-Smoove learned his lesson and that we can put this in perspective: we played badly but we fought back to make it “a palatable defeat”. Now, let us focus on Portland.
Final notes:
Props to JT0!!! Let him run circles around Andre Miller on Wednesday.
If I were Woody, I would talk to Josh and if he did not acknowledged his responsibility, I would bench him and play Joe Smith against Portland.
vava74
November 2nd, 2009
9:37 am
The front court collapsed because Josh refused to play down low and keep up with the tasks assigned to his role as a PF.
He basically left Al alone and occupied the zones assigned to Marvin.
He broke plays, launched stupid jump shots, made bad passes and tried to carry the ball up court as if he were man.
All these things completely foiled whatever game plan we had.
Like this, it is easy to hate Josh with the exact same intensity as we love him sometimes. Yesterday was hate night.
Anyone thinking he is the man who will lead us anywhere, look again please.
Yes, he is spectacular and can change a game in our favor, however, he does the opposite as well.
People have to realize that BBall, like any team sport, involves a high degree of coordination between players and “creativity” only plays a limited role.
Look at the triangle offense and how orchestrated it is (and how successful).
Phil Jackson would never get along with Josh, he would trade him in no time.
If Josh does not change his mind set, I say: trade him.
niremetal
November 2nd, 2009
10:16 am
The Hawks are running more and more sets that place Marvin on the weakside, which makes it very difficult for him to get touches. I don’t see that changing, so Marvin’s stats might turn out to be even more anemic this year than in years past. I hope I’m wrong…
niremetal
November 2nd, 2009
11:13 am
And Vava – I agree that you generally don’t overwork a player just because he’s having a better-than-average game. But JJ wasn’t just better-than-average. He was on pace to score 80 points at the time that Woody pulled him. I’ve never, ever, ever seen a coach pull a player who was as hot as JJ was as early as he did. To quote someone else who watched the game last night, it was the craziest sh!t I’ve ever seen Woody do.
If JJ had “just” scored 8-10 points in the first 9 minutes, I have no problem with pulling him for the sake of rest. But he had scored 18 points in 9 minutes. A six-year old knows not to pull a player when he’s that hot that early. You don’t mess with a guy who is in a once-in-a-lifetime groove like that.
vava74
November 2nd, 2009
11:57 am
Nire,
I still disagree!
Phil coaxed us into playing a jump shooting game. JJ could have gone and scored 50 (I doubt that he would keep on scoring like he was) but we would lose by 20 anyhow because everyone else would be standing around (like always).
The Lakers were playing JJ extremely soft and even gifted him a dumb +4. Don’t underestimate Phil Jackson’s bag of tricks.
JJ was hot, however, the Lakers were not defending him at all. None of his shots were contested hence I would not qualify his status as being “in the zone”.
As soon as Phil changed his defense on JJ we would be in “no motion offense” mode and Phil would either double team or glue Artest to JJ completely taking him out of the game.
I still think that Woody made the right decision, which was in line with what everyone always asks for – including you – here in the blog: diversity of offense, more players involved, …
The problem was that J-Smoove also wanted to show that he also had a hot hand and could drain the J’s, when in fact he carries most of the times an iceberg instead of a hand.
This is clear as water for me: BBall is a coordinated effort by 5 people on court. If one of them does not dance to the tune, all others will be out of sync as well.
King Beef
November 2nd, 2009
12:20 pm
vava 74 your Josh Smith obsession is scary. It is his fault that Marvin plays like a sissy. He is going on Marvin’s area on the floor. He was being selfish. Smith led the team in assists last night like he does for the year. You have one sentence about everyone else on the team not playing well. Then you go right back into your Smith hate. When are you going to say Zaza got paid and hasn”t done a thing since then. Marvin falls all over the place like he always has. Why am I even bothering? The team lost not just Smith. Joe played well for one quarter. Smith didn’t play well but neither did the rest of his team.
niremetal
November 2nd, 2009
12:42 pm
Vava,
When Kobe is on fire and is on pace to score 50, Phil doesn’t bench him while he’s still on fire. He waits until he misses a couple or until he’s looking tired and less willing to shoot. I’m amazed that you’re even trying to argue this. No coach in their right mind benches a guy who scores 18 points in 9 minutes and is on pace for 80 when it’s that early in the game. None.
I agree that JJ wasn’t likely to score 80 or even 50. And I agree that we needed more variety in our offense over the course of the game. But you don’t do it when someone looks like they could – for one of the very few times in his career – be capable of almost singlehandedly carrying the offense to victory. Wait until the man looks tired or misses a couple shots. Don’t do it preemptively. Not when a guy is playing like Kobe did on that night when he scored 81.
Pulling JJ for a 20 minute (in real time) period when he was playing like he was completely destroyed JJ’s rhythm, and was beyond insane and retarded. And I seriously will lose a very significant amount of respect you if you keep arguing with a straight face that it was the right move.
niremetal
November 2nd, 2009
12:48 pm
As far as the Lakers not playing D – bullsh!t. They weren’t trapping him like the Magic did, but only 2 of his looks were wide open, and most of those first 18 came either in the paint or at the line.
That’s the remarkable thing: For years, Woody has refused to pull Woody from the game even when he’s cold, and he’s refused to pull him when he’s just playing “ok” but isn’t exactly carrying the team. And then the one time Woody does choose to pull JJ that early is when JJ is playing like the second coming of MJ. I want JJ to get rest and I want to see more variety in our offense. I just didn’t want to do it on the one and only night since Game 4 of the Celtics series where JJ looked like MJ.
niremetal
November 2nd, 2009
12:50 pm
Sekou said it better than I could:
It didn’t help that the Hawks’ momentum early was halted by a head-scratching substitution. Joe Johnson was on a tear in the first few minutes of the game, piling up 18 points on 7-for-8 shooting, when Woodson inexplicably pulled him from the game with 2:39 to play in the quarter. For all the times we’ve moaned and groaned around here about JJ playing too many minutes, this was not the time to interrupt his flow. The playing rotation be darned, let the man shoot until he missed five straight. He stays on the floor until he misses, right?
Not this time.
niremetal
November 2nd, 2009
12:51 pm
Lakers star defender Ron Artest deserves a lot of credit for holding Johnson to just one field goal the rest of the way (Kobe Bryant certainly had no luck slowing Johnson down), but in hindsight, that quick and unexpected hook from Woodson seems even more perplexing after the fact.
vava74
November 2nd, 2009
1:20 pm
King Beef,
The fact that Josh’s best stat was his assists’ total is scary by itself. Specially when he failed to do everything else he is supposed to do.
One can lead the team in assists and still be playing selfishly: if you fail to do your job and try to do the job of others in order to shine: a PF not rebounding, nor defending, but leading the team in assists AND in turnovers.
I was not defending Marvin, I was explaining why everything crumbled. Mavin’s game and role is still limited and it surely does not help if the ball does not rotate and he does not get his open looks from the corner from where he consistently is starting to be a 3pt threat.
You obviously don’t like discipline and do not understand the importance of knowing your role within a team, hence you consider that I am attacking Josh moved by an obsession and not by observing his role in yesterday’s fracas!!!
Before Marvin was falling all over the place or Zaza was failing to do what he is paid for (which I acknowledged thoroughly above), Josh was already impersonating Mr. Hyde and breaking plays.
Also, Josh is the second best paid guy in the roster and supposed to be the All-star-better-than-JJ-who-should-take-over-the-role-as-the-go-to-guy.
Don’t get me wrong, I love watching J-Smoove, however, I am fully conscious that in order for the Hawks to be successful, he has to stop behaving childishly and play according to his designated role, within a team-play concept.
niremetal
November 2nd, 2009
5:19 pm
This reply is aimed at Daniel:
Daniel,
You make some good points in your post at 3:39. But I have two big issues: First the invocation of Doc, and second your assertion that Woody does have an offensive system. Doc had shown his coaching chops when – as a rookie coach – he took an extraordinarily depleted Magic team in 2000 and took them within a game of the playoffs. He realized that he would never be able to beat opposing teams on talent alone, so he pushed the pace like mad and used an honest-to-goodness 11-man rotation where no one played more than 31 minutes a game so that he could be sure the team could afford to keep up the blistering pace and play insanely tenacious defense without getting exhausted.
Celtics fans try to run every coach out of town the moment they start slipping. There were people calling for Doc’s head last year. But unlike Woody, Doc always makes use of the assets at his disposal, and mixes rotations and designs plays based on the players at his disposal. He also makes in-game adjustments better than any coach I’ve seen in the NBA, bar none. If something isn’t working, he doesn’t stick with it out of fear of treading on unfamiliar ground.
As far as Woody having an offensive system…well, that depends on what you mean by “system.” Sekou, Sports Illustrated, the folks on ESPN, me, my dog, and pretty much everyone else in the universe has commented many times on how the Hawks “lack identity” and always seem to end up letting the opposing team dictate the style of play. So if we have an offensive “system,” it’s clear that that system breaks down far too often. That’s why it so often looks like the Hawks’ offensive “system” appears to consist of isolation plays and Josh shooting perimeter jumpers at the buzzer. And if you want to blame the players…well, most guys besides Josh and Zaza have played under well-regarded coaches before they arrived in Atlanta. Most obviously, Bibby played for Adelman, JJ for D’Antoni, and Joe Smith for Flip Saunders (and Adelman before that). Heck, even Horford played for Donovan and Marvin for Roy Williams in college. None of those guys were accused of being unable to execute within their coach’s systems before. In fact, one of the big criticisms of Marvin throughout his career is that he is TOO willing to accept his role in the system instead of imposing his own mark on the game. Horford and Marvin both were touted as having sky-high bball IQs and being eminently coachable when they exited college; JJ, Bibby, and Smith all played key roles on highly successful teams. Something tells me they haven’t suddenly became incapable of executing their coach’s “system” when they arrived in Atlanta.
Now is part of the blame for the Hawks’ woes last night on the players? Yeah, of course. I won’t absolve them. The falling apart in the third quarter last night was due in no small part to ugly fundamental mistakes that no basketball players should make. But even the best teams with the best players go through stretches like that during a game every once in awhile. The difference is that the great coaches figure out a way to not let those lapses happen too often. But we’ve seen this happen with Woody’s Hawks an incredible amount ever since he first arrived in 2004 – the teams will look like worldbeaters for stretches, and then look like a D-League squad that doesn’t know their asses from their elbows minutes later.
A good chunk of the blame for that is on the players. But most of it is on the coach – either he doesn’t have a system, he hasn’t gotten the players to buy into that system, or he hasn’t done what is necessary to make sure that system gets executed in games. In any case, it’s on him.
kingbeef
November 2nd, 2009
5:23 pm
Who appointed him the Allstar better than JJ? I obviously don’t like discipline how would you know that. I watched the game and Marvin was his typical passive self. How do you blame that on Smith. I hope you are not saying he didn’t rotate the ball anymore than anyone else on the team. He didn’t play well but neither did the rest of the team. Horford was terrible also. I didn’t hear you mention him. If the ball is not getting reversed it is usually because the person who has it didn’t swing it. His name is Johnson not Smith. So was Smith being selfish the first two games also. I agree he should be rebounding more but not defending I don’t agree with. Who was guarding Kobe for those 41pts? It wasn’t Smith. It was the same person who got destroyed by Granger. Remember they had to switch Joe onto to Granger because he was destroying Marvin. Marvin is like a ghost there are multiple times during a game when you don’t even realize he is on the floor.
kingbeef
November 2nd, 2009
5:38 pm
Niremetal-
that was a great post. The reason they are so bad on the road is because the offense is different then when they are at home. At home they will run and get easy baskets which opens up the offense for all the players. On the road they play half court which in Woodson’s offense means watching iso Joe. I have never seen a team stand around with the lack of movement the Hawks have on the road. Teams just double Joe and crowd the paint.
Rod from College Park
November 2nd, 2009
6:35 pm
kingbeef,
You are totally correct concerning Marvin. This guy is about as weak a player as I have ever seen for his size. I argued that we should bench this guy two years ago, last year, and I surely did not think we should give his 7.5 million per to play the invisable man role. What makes it more unbeleivable to me is that as smart as some of these guys are in terms of knowing basketball they continue to give this guy a pass. I argued all summer that Marvin was not our best man to man defensive player. Majority of the main bloggers here told me he was. Who has he done a good job on defensively this year. Granger ate his lunch. Kobe sreamed for the ball when Marvin was guarding him, and drove by him like he was not even there. HE can’t check Odom or Artest if they post him. Caron Butler or JAmison would have destroyed him if they were not hurt. He can’t guard anyone. When he does shoot, he is wide open because teams don’t respect his offensive game at all. He should easily be able to score 20 to 25 points a game based on our terrible offense, because he is the one player no on respects, along with Josh when he is outside of 10 to 15 feet. When we try to post him, he can never finish, or he just passes out of the post. The guy is truely useless, and we will regret the decision to extend him, unless we are able to package him in a deal for a true center.
In reponse to the obsurd comments that VAVA74 made, actually Marvin (#2) was drafted to be the second leading score or the leading scorer on this team. Josh was not. You should direct your anger and frustration at him. As I have have stated before, if Marvin ended up being a Carmelo, Kevin Durant or Danny Granger, where would this team be now? Please don’t give me that stupid what would they do if they were the 4th option mess. They would not me the 4th option, they would be the first or second options, thus giving us a double threat on offense, which is what we have been trying to accomplish for the last 3 to 4 years. It also might have put us on the level of a Boston with the big 3. Marvin is the major problem, and coach Woodson will have to address it, or lose his job period. As most her know, I am not a new Marvin hater. I wonder where some of you were when me and Sam from the Swats were telling everyone this before he signed that contract.
vava74
November 2nd, 2009
7:58 pm
People take things so personal!!!
I was making a point, not exonerating Marvin of his share of responsibility!
We all know that Marvin is not Carmelo. He is what he is and last year he was productive and he might still have space to evolve.
I was making a point about one crucial and frustrating aspect about our second highest paid player since he reverted to a style of play which is very damaging to us.
Take it easy man!
Rollo from Buckhead
November 2nd, 2009
8:43 pm
As most her know, I am not a new Marvin hater
There it is in black and white. Please exit, take the first left and escort yourself to the Marvin hater blog down the street. Thank you for calling. GOODBYE.
Thomas Jefferson
November 2nd, 2009
8:49 pm
“A fanatic is someone who won’t change their mind, and won’t change the subject.”
niremetal
November 2nd, 2009
9:48 pm
Actually, I think that was Winston Churchill. Just sayin
King Beef
November 2nd, 2009
10:35 pm
Vava74, I am not Rod so I don’t have Marvin hate. I am just pointing out your hypocrisy. He is what he is and last year he was productive and he might still have space to evolve. You do realize Smith is the same age as Marvin and he might mature also? Yet you hold him to a different standard than Marvin. I know you are going to say he is 2nd highest paid player on the team. I guess you are going to say he was overpaid also. He outperformed the 2nd pick, 5th and 6th pick Please explain your grading scale on your complaints. Your tunnel vision is amazing. Take it easy, you complained all over this blog about Smith in the third game of the year and you say take it easy. Take your own advice.
vava74
November 3rd, 2009
7:25 am
King Beef,
I am not being an hypocrite. I do have double standards since I have different expectations in relation to Josh and Marvin.
I think Marvin has some space to evolve into a very useful SF, not a star, but kind of a more evolved and complete version of Bowen.
Each year Marvin has improved in some facet of his game, like for instance last year in which he became a 3pt threat. Marvin also looks more “coachable”, although his first 3 games have been extremely disappointing, no doubt about it.
In relation to Josh we all have higher expectations since sometimes his ceiling seems so high. Unfortunately, he repeatedly reverts back to his out of control self.
Marvin contribution to our bad game play has come out of almost complete omission of action, whilst Josh’s came on Sunday out of him actively doing some things he should not done at all.
Rod from College Park
November 3rd, 2009
8:45 am
vava74,
Your logic is flawed. Would you rather someone put forth an effort to get something accomplished, or not try at all?
niremetal
November 3rd, 2009
8:58 am
Depends on whether you’re asking the player to be a star or a role player.
Daniel
November 3rd, 2009
9:00 am
niremental-
First, I don’t think that my post was meant to suggest that I place all the blame on the players. I agree that the Hawks last year and in the game against the Lakers are WAY too erratic for a team that in general plays very well. You have read my statements that the blow out losses we suffered last year were the main issue that I was looking to be resolved this year. In the past, we have excused those losses on the team youth and inexpierence, but I do not believe that is an excuse this year. We lost the game because of the third quarter, when as a group the team played like a D-league squad. Is that the players? the coach? both?
I would say that it is both. I am not giving Woodson a pass here. What I am saying is the analysis of why we lost is wrong. It is not a “lack of an offensive system”, it is not Horford being too small, or Josh turning back into a pumpkin, or even Joe’s substitution pattern. The loss goes to a deeper core issue of how the team handles adversity on the road. Every team does have bad stretches, but good teams limit those events to seldom to rare. Last year even with 47 wins the Hawks had too many bad stretches (poor shooting, turnovers, brain dead defense, etc.) We have had one this year. Is this the same ole, same ole or is this a blip on the radar, where we caught the Champs coming off a loss on their court? I don’t know. A smart coach and team would recognize this pattern, address it, and then not let it continue to define the team. We will have our first glimpse of the answer in Portland.
If you want to assign the erratic play to Woodson, then fine. I can’t argue with you. I happent to think it is more about the players, but really it is a combination of both. I just think the issue is less about x’s and o’s and more about maturity, heart and belief, which is a reflection of the coach and players.
Daniel
November 3rd, 2009
9:03 am
Also, it was GeeMack who may the Doc Rivers comparison. I just happened to agree with him.
niremetal
November 3rd, 2009
9:05 am
And not for nothing, but $7.5M a year is role player money in the modern NBA – Marvin’s contract is closer to that of Marko Jaric than it is to Carmelo, Granger, or even Caron Butler. And Josh’s contract isn’t exactly superstar money either.
Daniel
November 3rd, 2009
9:14 am
Rod- your consistent attacks on Marvin makes even your legitimate critiques invalid, because it all comes with such vitrol and over the top verbage, that it always seems personal. I am not sure why you can’t see that.
Also, Marvin’s contract is extremely reasonable for a 12-15 point SF with solid team defense. The only issue about his contract is his health concerns. The contract in no way harms the Hawks, unless he develops a chronic back problem. If he improves. I said “if”, the contract then becomes a steal.
Slow your roll.
vava74
November 3rd, 2009
9:28 am
Rod,
My logic is the following: BBall involves orchestrated player and ball movement, spacing, etc…
Marvin has (right now) a limited game which depends on him being fed on certain designated locations to take advantage of his jump shooting (which is good) or his driving with an open lane which leads to FTs (above average when he has some space).
Josh was playing “out of his role” against the Lakers which in my opinion messed up our offensive game (which away from home is already on the weak side normally).
I know that Josh does not mean bad, but when he tries to makes things happen outside the game plan, what is warranted by his position and the flow of the game, that disrupts the (little) offense coordination in place.
His effort was detrimental to the ball being shot by other players with better range and detrimental to our ability to rebound the misses and get second chances, which is what he should be doing with a lot of effort on offense, as a PF.
A badly oriented effort by a player is in many cases worse than a no effort from another because it causes a chain reaction which is more difficult to repair. If everyone sticks to their roles it is easier to identify who is producing less and yank him out of the game replacing him for someone else whilst when a player starts to go wild it becomes almost impossible to pin point what to correct since all runs out of sync.
Maybe it all boils down to Woody not being able to pass the message, however, Josh’s erratic behavior should be easier for him to correct than the technical aspects of the game which sometimes are dependent on having or not talent for a given facet of the game.
I want the Hawks to do well and I do not hate a single player in our team. I really like Josh and I would love him to succeed and help us win.
However, it is he who makes it difficult for himself not being criticized.
I really wish that tonight, against the Kings and the Bobcats he proves me wrong and leads the team in all categories and we win all games. I truly wish for that to happen.
I will gladly eat my words!!!
Rod from College Park
November 3rd, 2009
11:13 am
Daniel,
You take it how you want to take it. Because you don’t like the way I voice what I want to say does not make you right. I don’t like Marvin’s game, and everything I have stated in the past year about his game has been correct. Would you rather pay Marvin 7.5 Millin to be a role player or pay Matt Barnes or Jerry Stackhouse or any other living breathing small forward who can hit wide open jump shots 2 to 3 million a year. Would you rather Marvin or Ariza? Marvin or Childress? If you offfered Marvin’s Contract to either of those guys maybe a little more for Ariza, they would be here. That’s the point. If you can prove to me that everything that I have said about Marvin is wrong, then please be my guest. I argued that he is to passive, and will never be a consistent 20 point scorer in this league. I have argued that for his draft position he is a bust. I have argued that we play better when he is not on the floor. I have argued that we should not have resigned him for that amount. I have argued that he is not the best man to man defender on our team. I have argued that Josh is a better player than him. I have argued that there are 15 to 20 small forwards in the league who are better than him. Where am I wrong? If you don’t like my post, then SCROLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL. YOu have that right. Stop hating on me for being right. Anybody who keeps my team from being great, I have a strong dislike for, and Marvin is at the top of the list. If it seems personal, so what. Marvin will still be able to feed his family and pay his bills no matter what I say. Deal with it, scroll, or start you own blog.
vava74
I understand some of the things that you are saying, but just blaming Josh for everything is absurd. Josh did not make Marvin go 1 for 6 against the Lakers. Guess what, if he went 5 for 6 the game would have been closer. Those shots he missed were wide open jumpshots, and he is a jumpshooter. He did not pull Joe out of the game when he was red hot. He did not make the whole team stop playing defense. He did not design the offense. He did not tell Joe to pound the ball until the shot clock runs out and then pass to the worse jumpshooter on the team. That is why you argument is flawed.
Rod from College Park
November 3rd, 2009
11:26 am
Daniel,
To continue my thoughts, there is a regular person on this blog who actually post as two or three different people who posted
“And not for nothing, but $7.5M a year is role player money in the modern NBA – Marvin’s contract is closer to that of Marko Jaric than it is to Carmelo, Granger, or even Caron Butler. And Josh’s contract isn’t exactly superstar money either.”
Who I don’t respond to anymore, or debate with because I personally don’t feel that he has any true baskeball knowledge, and I am not interested in thet salary cap stuff. He can keep posting, and 99% of the time when I see his name I SCROLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL. You have that right also. This is a public blog.
Rod from College Park
November 3rd, 2009
12:36 pm
These don’t look like all role players to me:
Rasheed Wallace 5.8 million
Devin Harris 8.4 million
David Lee 7 million
Mo Williams 8.8 million
Charlie Villeneuva 6.5 million
Danny Granger 9.9 million
Gerald Wallace 9.0 million
Jameer Nelson 6.1 million
Michael Pietrus 5.3 million
Caron Butler 9.7 million
Shane Battier 6.8 million
Trevor Ariza 5.8 million
Rudy Gay 3.2 million
David West 9 million
J.R. Smith 5.5 million
Andre Miller 6.7 million
Lamarcus Aldridge 5.8 million
Stephen Jackson 7.6 million
Lamar Odom 7.5 million
Ron Artest 5.8 million
Bright Idea
November 3rd, 2009
12:37 pm
Here’s a bright idea: ignore Rod and maybe he’ll go away. Making it clear that no one on the blog thinks his opinion is worth 2 cents hasn’t worked, so pretending that he doesn’t exist is probably for the best.
vava74
November 3rd, 2009
1:00 pm
Rod,
I was not blaming Josh for everything. I was emphasizing a point, namely that our worst games are frequently coincidental with games in which Josh enters his Mr. Hyde mode and that I believe that there is an actual cause and effect relationship between Josh playing out of script and our offense floundering.
Rod from College Park
November 3rd, 2009
2:28 pm
vava74,
I understand your point, and you have the right to have that opinion, I just disagree. I feel like we play our worse games when we go into these scoring lulls, which is why Jamal Crawford should be on the floor more. Your point was taken and understood. I think your argument should be more with Woodson for not defining everyone’s roles as opposed to blaming Josh. Marvin stays in Mr. Hyde mode, so you should be furious with him.
Rod from College Park
November 3rd, 2009
2:32 pm
Bright Idea,
No one would mean I would be replying to myself, and I have never done that. Maybe you are not so BRIGHT. Switch back to your other handle, he actually might say something BRIGHT every blue moon.
niremetal
November 3rd, 2009
5:22 pm
My friend the Photoshop wiz has come up with a new and improved version of the JT-0 pic. Here ’tis – and notice the modified lettering on the front of the GTO:
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/2964/jt0q.jpg
KevinA
November 3rd, 2009
7:29 pm
We shot a lot higher percent of jump shots than in any of our wins. The back court shot a lot higher percentage of the shots than in any of our winning games. The solution? Quit shooting so many jump shots.
Here is the post I put up on the other blog. Not hating on the players or the coach – just disappointed in our style of play.
Balance, Balance, Balance
In the Laker game we lost it. Why I don’t know. Maybe Odem and Bynim are just intimidating or maybe without a home town crowd pushing them we just turn soft.
Here are the numbers.
Marvin/Hunter Evans – 11 shots. This number should be closer to 15.
Josh/Al/ Smith/Collins/Morris – 24 shots. This number should be closer to 32.
JJ/Bibby/Crawford/JT – 47 shots. This number way to high.
Shot Selection, Shot Selection, Shot Selection
Even when the ball did move past the back court we still shot to many jumpers. JT was the only player that seemed to mix his game and was the main reason we made a push when it was to late. Part of the responsibility of the back court is to get the big’s the ball in a position for easy scores. What did they do instead? shoot 7-23 from the 3 pt line. What happened to driving and kicking. What happened to attacking the rim.
If we do not play with balance and attack the rim – look for another loss. Remember the preseason wins? And the 2 wins in the regular season. We had the balance and attacked the rim.
Melvin
November 3rd, 2009
9:21 pm
Watching the Cavs/Wizards game. I bet these Cavs announcers can tell you what size Lebron jock strap is. My goodness, those guys are disgusting…
Melvin
November 3rd, 2009
9:22 pm
Nire,
You should send that pic to Sekou… nice
TheDream
November 3rd, 2009
10:03 pm
Let’s take a look at that list of players and their salaries.
First of all, SOME of the best performers on that list are in contracts that they signed BEFORE they started performing the way they do now, so their current contracts are indicative of what their market value was at the time . Examples are Devin Harris, Mo Williams, JR Smith, and Lamarcus Aldridge . As a matter of fact, Mr. Aldridge is due up for a contract extension now, if you have been following anything in the NBA besides this Atlanta Hawks team.
Second, its disingenuous and misleading to talk about a player’s salary for just the one year. Contracts are complex, and in all likelihood, none of them pay the exact same thing every year. The contracts are usually front loaded, back loaded, or some other configuration. So a player may make 6 million this year, but get 8 million the next, or maybe he got 8 million the year before. If its a two year contract for a total of 14 million, then you automatically think they’re making 7 million a year, yes? But that would be wrong.
Third, guys like Rudy Gay are still in their rookie contract, particularly if the team picked up the 4th year option. Such will be the case with Al Horford, for example. This should be obvious, as no young, current player with Mr. Gays level of production in the NBA makes only 3 million or so a year. Not even the one dimensional ones like a certain Mr. Corey Maggette.
Fourth, a good number of players on that list are EXACTLY what one might call role players. Shane Battier is exactly that. So is Lamar Odom, or would somebody like to explain why he spent most of last year coming off the bench or how many all star games he has played in? Mickael Pietrus is a role player by rote.
Fifth, some of these guys were caught in the economical downturn. Mr. David Lee can certainly relate to that. As can Mr. Rasheed Wallace.
The case of Mr. Wallace is the most curious. I am certain that many would argue that he is a far better player than Mr. Marvin Wiliams, who I must assume the current discussion is about. However, he has not been any better, and in fact statistically worse in some years ever since he left the Portland Trailblazers. His role with the Detroit Pistons would explain a reduction in statistical production, as that team depended on all starters contributing nearly equally. However, after Larry Brown left, Mr. Wallace performed either the same or worse than Mr. Williams ever has. Anyone wishing to bolster a statistically or salary based opinion in favor of Mr. Williams would do well to mention Mr. Wallace. Anyone wishing to do the opposite should never mention Mr. Wallace at all.
I apologize for the lengthy and otherwise unasked for opinion but it was a discussion that I found difficult to scroll past.
Big Ray
November 3rd, 2009
10:16 pm
Josh looks SO nervous on the line.
Wabe
November 3rd, 2009
10:18 pm
Hope the Hawks perform well tonite, their off to a slow start but hopefully things will pickup.
Gotta get the taste of last nights loss to those Saints out my mouth.
Wabe
November 3rd, 2009
10:18 pm
What the hell is Marvin Williams doing?
niremetal
November 3rd, 2009
10:18 pm
Marvin looked good for 3 minutes and then missed an open dunk. Wow.
Big Ray
November 3rd, 2009
10:18 pm
Nice! I was hoping the defender would bite on the jumper fake, but I’ll take a slow, good look at the basket.
Big Ray
November 3rd, 2009
10:19 pm
Wabe ,
I feel you. But the Falcons fought much harder against the NFL’s best team than the Hawks did against the NBA’s best.
niremetal
November 3rd, 2009
10:21 pm
6-5 midway through the first. Building must be cold or something…
niremetal
November 3rd, 2009
10:22 pm
And now Josh misses a dunk too…but how was that a foul on him???? This game is uglier than Craig Sager’s suit so far.
Wabe
November 3rd, 2009
10:22 pm
I hear ya Big Ray. They played far beyond my expectations last night. Would’ve been great to see them come out on top after an effort like that. But that’s football man.
Big Ray
November 3rd, 2009
10:23 pm
Somebody get that ref off the floor, she doesn’t know how to call a game. How do you miss the foul committed AGAINST Smith, then call him for trying to protect his face from ANOTHER opposing player, who is falling on him?!
Wabe
November 3rd, 2009
10:23 pm
I really don’t get that call. Doesn’t make sense if the guys on the floor and you’ve got body’s falling on top of him.
Big Ray
November 3rd, 2009
10:23 pm
Apparently the same refs at the Falcons-Saints game have showed up for the Hawks-Blazers game.
Big Ray
November 3rd, 2009
10:25 pm
Heh. Bibby hasn’t tried that floaters in about 2 years. It shows…