Blending in, standing out, surviving the game
Have you ever seen that movie “Surviving the Game”, with former rap star-turned television and movie actor, Ice-T? I always liked that movie. Not just because of Ice-T. I liked the performances and characters played by Charles S. Dutton and Rutger Hauer as well. Not to mention that crazy Gary Busey. Dude has always been crazy in his roles. I’m not even sure he was acting. But that was one of the things (or should I say “themes”) that came to mind when I thought about Hawks training camp. That and the reality television series, “Survivor” (something I tired of somewhat quickly, for various reasons), to a much lesser extent.
Training camp will not feature such brutal action as Ice-T’s movie (or so we hope, we don’t need any injuries). Nor will it feature the drama of forged alliances-turned-betrayals, as we saw in “Survivor.” No necklace of immunity (sorry, Mario West), and no “me against the world and these crazy group of guys with guns” (VaVa74 will be relieved, heh heh). But somehow I can imagine the intensity level being similar, in some ways, even though we fans don’t get to watch. Competition will be fierce when scrimmages start, but preparation is the name of this game. Cohesion. Camp invitees, particularly the ones new to the team, need to figure out the right combination of blending in, standing out, and surviving the game. And make no mistake. Training camp IS a game….of sorts. Players have to learn to blend in by learning the existing system, fitting into, and executing plays. They have to stand out, in a manner of speaking, by either showing that they bring a certain element or elements to the game in a way that others can’t. Or that they add something to the team that doesn’t presently exist, or exists in a smaller, lesser capacity. Accomplishing both, building early chemistry with existing team members, and staying healthy are all necessary parts of surviving the game that is training camp.
Training camp is where invitees get to show a little bit more of themselves. Where they get to shop their wares to a team in more of a vaccum than say, minicamp or summer league. And I think it works both ways. We tend to assume that this setting is just for teams, so they can see if a player fits a need or role of some kind. But it’s probably also like that for the player. Yeah, you want a job, but you also need to “get in where you fit in” as the saying goes. As a player, you need to consider what works best for you. Even before an offer is made (IF it’s made), a player has to be thinking certain things, don’t they? Do I actually fit on this team in some capacity? Do I really have a chance at helping this team and adding positively to their chemistry? What roles might I be able to fill, and what needs could I meet? What ARE this team’s needs? Could my acquisition be based on a trade of an existing player on this team, or a trade involving me? That last part is something most players will shrug off in interviews. They’ll say it’s not something they have time to think or worry about. But surely it crosses their minds at some point.
It’s obvious that not everybody who gets invited to camp will be given a roster spot. In fact, not everybody invited to a training camp will get a roster spot in the NBA. Some will go over seas, others may go to the D-League. You never know.
Can you tell where a team is at, in part, by who they invite to camp? Can you tell what a front office is thinking (or the coaching staff ) by who they invite to camp? I think you can at least do so speculatively, but I’m sure it’s not an exact science. Seriously, look at who the Hawks have invited to training camp, and compare it to who they have invited in the past. Last year, the guys invited to camp (not the guys who were signed up for the season) included Thomas Gardner, Othello Hunter, Olumide Oyedeji, Marcus Hubbard, and Mario West. In 2007, it was Steven Smith, Antywane Robinson, and Jamal Tatum, and Mario West. The last time the Hawks had a training camp roster of nearly this size was in 2006, when the invitees included Lionel Chalmers, Cedric Bozeman, Andre Brown, Andreas Glyniadakis, Matt Freije, and Kaniel Dickens. Granted, these guys were all either rookies or players with just one year of NBA experience.
Okay, we know the deal with Mario West. And this is the second time that Frank Robinson has shown up at a Hawks camp, so we kind of know the deal with him, too. But look at some of the others for this year’s training camp roster, and what kind of players they are. Courtney Sims is the D-league player of the year, with a combination of size and skill that may be more underrated than we think. Garrett Siler is a non-drafted also-ran so far, but he’s bigger and possibly a more credible center prospect than we’ve invited to camp in a long time. Juan Dixon. Juan Dixon? (As HB Ando remarked to me the other evening) Where did he come from? Dixon isn’t Flip Murray, but he’s also nothing to sneeze at. We’re talking a low-salary end of the bench combo guard who won’t hurt you when he comes in the game. Hmmmm. Interesting. Aaron Miles is a perennial summer leaguer who has spent more time over seas than he has in anybody’s camp. Othello Hunter is an intriguing young forward who made the team last year, and may have more wrinkles to his game than we know about. And then there is Mike Wilks, who actually began his NBA career by playing for the Hawks several years ago (’02-’03). Wilks is a journeyman point guard who has the unique and dubious honor of having played for eight different teams, yet managing to keep his jersey number (29) the same, the entire time. Strange, huh? And you thought only John Hollinger could come up with obscure stuff….yeah, well so can Wikipedia.
People always talk about finding the “diamond in the rough.” Training camp is rarely where you find this. Very few of us get excited about training camp invitees, and for good reason. These guys are mostly looking for another contract so they can simply earn a living. Some are down on their luck after injury. Others are not far from retirement. But the possibility remains that you can sometimes find lesser valued gems and (more likely) useful metals in this venue. Will the Hawks find one (or more) in this crop of invitees? Hawks fan and well-known ”link master” blogger Ariose says this is never an easy decision to make, but if the Hawks want to make a serious run in the playoffs both this year and in the future, they need to sign big men Garrett Siler and Courtney Sims. He goes on to add, “Hey, in the playoffs we need every foul we can get against teams like Cleveland and Boston. And a guy like Courtney Sims has a versatile game. I was glad we got Collins and Smith, so we wouldn’t have to worry about Al getting into foul trouble too soon, and the frontcourt breaking down as a result. At the same time, I kind of like the idea of giving a guy like Frank Robinson a shot.”
Do the Hawks need another guard more than they do another big man, or is it the other way around? Is Courtney Sims a guy who will make you regret not taking a chance on him? The Hawks roster is more stocked and stable than it has been in over 5 years. So who makes it out of camp? And why?
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111 comments Add your comment
Ariose
October 3rd, 2009
12:51 am
First!!!
niremetal
October 3rd, 2009
12:51 am
I’d like to see the Hawks sign Siler and immediately stash him in the D-League until and unless injuries and wear/tear force us to call him up. Sims? He really should have to blow us away to use a roster spot on him. Not a single player who has won the D-League MVP has become an NBA rotation player. And the D-League is no longer brand new…this will be its 9th year. So that MVP is something to be proud of, but we shouldn’t take it to mean that he will ever be an NBA contributor. Yes, we need as many fouls as we can manage in the playoffs. But we can only dress 12 players a game, but we already will be dressing 5 PF/Cs every night (Horford, Zaza, Collins, Smoove, Smith), and NO team in the entire NBA uses 6 big men in a game.
RandMo’s fouls are just as good as Sims’, and we have a greater need for depth elsewhere – namely on the wing and at PG. Signing a seventh big man is useless unless we plan to stash him in the D-League. As for the D-League route, there’s absolutely no reason to take on the expense of doing that with two players. And I’d rather do it with Siler than Sims. I don’t think we’ll ever lose sleep over passing up Sims.
12 guys under contract already – our starting 5 plus 1 PG (Teague), 1 combo guard (Crawford), 1 swingman (Mo), 2 PF/Cs (RandMo/Joe), and 2 Cs (Zaza/Collins).
With those numbers, I think retaining Hunter is a must because we don’t have any combo forwards coming off the bench (sorry, but I haven’t Joe Smith getting minutes at SF since the late 90’s). If Marvin goes down, we’ll need to at least have the option of bringing in a guy like Hunter. We most certainly do NOT need another big man to eat up active roster space. We also have enough guys who can handle the point in a crunch that we don’t really have any need for a pure PG – if we get a G, I think it needs to be a combo guard or 2-guard.
So unless someone else is an absolute terror in the preseason, the only ones I think are worth considering are Hunter, West, Robinson, and Dixon. Of those, I think we all know who I’d go with…
Ariose
October 3rd, 2009
1:17 am
Nire, If it comes down to it, Smoove can play SF and Sims or Siler or someone else can fill in at his PF spot. Speaking of sims, the guy is 6′11 has a sweet strok and averaged 23&10 last season, he may be our next backup PF(Joe smith is’t going to be around forever….he’s no spring chicken). Also Othello Hunter plays in the post. I’ve NEVER heard of him swithching over to play SF…and he’s no Brandon Bass or Chuck Hayes(obviously or he’s have a job right about now). There’s no need for him to be on our roster.
Siler and Sims would be projects(investing in the future), yes but that’s how most bigs get their start(and they can help us right now in some capacity if need be). Look at Andrew Bynum. Like I said, Collins and Joe Smith arent young and in the playoffs, depending on who we play,we may need bigger bodies instead of smaller ones like Smoove and Joe smith.
I don’t know what the deal is with you people and Othello hunter, but I don’t remeber him going to the D-Leauge and putting up anthing NEAR 23&10 last eason is his two games. And I don’t want to hear a lame excuse like he needs time to adjust down there, bucase i’ve seen plenty of legit players(Louis Williams, Will Bynum, Shannon Brown, Coby Karl etc) go down there and embarras those D-leaugers on their first try.
Hunter Was nice, but this isn’t Ametuer hour anymore, For the first time in a long time, we can really do something special. We have no room for project that WE KNOW don’t have a real future here and isn’t going to pan out in the long run. You heard Jamal Crawford. Everyone is talking about winning a Title…..it’s time to get serious and leave the groupies behiend…..we need more BEEF! The more the better.
Siler, Sims, and either leave the last roster spot open or give it to G.Green, Stackhouse, or maybe Frank Robinson(3rd pg/combo guard)
niremetal
October 3rd, 2009
1:29 am
Ariose,
Siler and Sims would be projects(investing in the future), yes but that’s how most bigs get their start(and they can help us right now in some capacity if need be). Look at Andrew Bynum.
Couple things. First, Hunter is actually just 6 months older than Siler and is 3 years younger than Sims. Second and more important…Bynum was drafted in the lottery. Siler went undrafted. So was Sims. So was Hunter for that matter, but as I’ve said many times – if you’re an American who is 6′11 or taller, you’re not gonna go undrafted unless you’re a bona fide scrub. There has been one and only one exception to that rule in the past 12 years – Brad Miller.
Hunter slimmed down and was much quicker this summer…I’m surprised you don’t remember that from the mini-camp coverage.
You’re calling for Siler AND Sims? Why??? Do you seriously think we have more need for a 5th string center than we do for a combo guard or forward? If two of our PF/Cs go down (say Horford and Joe Smith), we still have 2 big men available to come off the bench assuming Zaza gets plugged into the starting lineup (Collins and RandMo). But if two of our wings go down (say Marvin and Crawford) and we have to put Mo in the lineup, we suddenly will have NO ONE coming off the bench who can play the 2 – and really, no one left who has played much time at the 3…take a look at 82games.com and you’ll see that Woody stopped using Josh at the 3 altogether last year. There’s a reason for that.
I don’t see how you can look at the roster and decide we should sign Siler OR Sims, much less BOTH. I don’t think it’s quite sunk into yet that we finally have an overabundance of beef. What we need now is to work on our leaner food groups
Ariose
October 3rd, 2009
1:45 am
LOL, Well I was calling for G.Green($800K!!!) and I was fine with the possibillity Stack coming in, but Now I don’t know what Rick is thinking. I hope Othello’s jumper has improved enough to play SF, If we do sign him. Like I said, Sims and Siler would be investments for the future, but I really wanna see Siler bang against the Big Diesel for some reason
Tomorrow the REAL scrimmaging starts, so we’ll know who’s the real deal or not……FINALLY!!!
niremetal
October 3rd, 2009
1:45 am
Here’s that link on our player rotations for last year, showing no lineups that we used where Josh played SF:
http://www.82games.com/0809/0809ATL2.HTM
niremetal
October 3rd, 2009
1:47 am
There’s the (800k!!!!!!) I was looking for. For a second I thought you were going soft on me
Ariose
October 3rd, 2009
2:23 am
I personally remeber Woodson experemnting with Josh at SF last year. Late in the season against Boston. I think he did it in another game as well.
Ariose
October 3rd, 2009
2:43 am
Hawks Preview:
http://dimemag.com/2009/10/atlanta-hawks-09-10-nba-season-preview/
Harry Hawk
October 3rd, 2009
2:52 am
We need some more Prince Henry Stouts on this team, folks.
chuckw/deadjournalist
October 3rd, 2009
9:25 am
i think part of the other question around these spots would be which players you would be least likely to be able to re-sign if a significant injury arose at the 2/3. who of the ‘rio/robinson/dixon combo would be most likely to play a significant role? as much as i love ‘rio, his offensive limitations are so pronounced, maybe dixon is a guy they keep around.
given that the hawks’ haven’t used the d-league (save a couple of game for gardner and hunter on a west coast trip last year) since they were affiliated with arkansas and let donta smith play out the rest of his contract for the rimrockers, i doubt this is the year they use it to get game experience for siler.
frankly, even if they were to keep sims or robinson i doubt they would stick long – need i remind the old-timers that guys like fred vinson, steve wojciechowski, matt maloney and (are you ready for this?) sergey bazarevich broke camp with the hawks only to be toss to the curb by the first of the year.
niremetal
October 3rd, 2009
12:37 pm
Ariose,
You see Sekou’s latest on Othello?
cp
October 3rd, 2009
1:34 pm
Hunter has been receiving great reviews all summer. I think he makes the team if he keeps it up. I have no idea who gets the other spot. I don’t see Mario making this team. I think it comes down to Siler and Sims. Juan Dixon looked horrible last year so I don’t know how much he has left to offer.
Ariose
October 3rd, 2009
1:37 pm
“Almost exactly alike,” Murray said of the two systems. “So much of this stuff comes from when Woodie and Larry were coaching together.”
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/story/982410.html#
Oh, but flip, we’ve got a new system…..I hope….
Ariose
October 3rd, 2009
1:39 pm
Nire, I saw it, i’m not as enamored with the guy like some of you, but I’d love for him to prove me wrong. But when you can add a guy like Stack or Green for the same price….
KevinA
October 3rd, 2009
1:41 pm
nire, Ariose,
I think you both made credible arguments. One thing that would help our flexibility is if Crawford could defend the #2. Then we could just pick the player with the most upside instead of trying to fill a slot. This flexibility wound give Woody the opportunity to move JJ to the three.
I know some of you think this a given but I am skeptical until we see him play. There is just to much written information about Crawford about his lack of defense.
We know JJ can play the #3, the million dollar question is wether Crawford/Bibby/Teague in combinations can be good enough on defense to handle the #1 and #2.
If the guards can work it out I would go big like Ariose wants. If our guards cannot guard well enough and JJ cannot move to the #3, I would think Hunter is the man.
KevinA
October 3rd, 2009
2:19 pm
niremetal
October 3rd, 2009
12:51 am
But we can only dress 12 players a game.
Excellent point. Why in years past including this year why wouldn’t we put a Siler, Sims and Hunter in the D League. Does the coach want them in practice so they know the plays better or thinks they will develop better in practice? Is it just to expensive? Like Rand Mo for example – no chance to play riding the pine. What is better for their carreer and skill developement.
Do teams lose rights in the D League? Can any team snatch them?
niremetal
October 3rd, 2009
2:23 pm
Again – the problem is that if any two of the four players I mentioned get hurt (Mo, Crawford, JJ, Marvin), we will have NO ONE left on the roster who is capable of playing the 2, and NO ONE who played more than a handful of minutes at the 3 last year. Not one player. THAT is a problem, and one we dodged last year because JJ, Flip, and Mo all went for basically the entire season without getting hurt. If we’re not so lucky this year, we’ll be royally screwed. On the other hand, if two big men get hurt, then we’re not royally screwed because we have six PF/Cs under contract.
Again, we need to get past the idea that we have a depth issue at the big man spots. We’re so used to that being the case that we’re having a hard time looking at the roster and realizing that we have NO need to spend another roster spot on a big man this year.
Yeah, Joe Smith and Collins are probably one-year rentals. But why the heck is that a problem? We’ll sign two more veteran big men next summer to replace them. That’s what playoff teams do with their 9th and 10th roster spots – fill them with players who are ready contribute RIGHT NOW if need be. When you’re a playoff team looking to move higher, you can’t burn a roster spot on a young big man who has a 1 in 25 chance of becoming a rotation player (and that seriously is about right for the odds of an undrafted rookie free agent big man ever becoming a rotation player). At least not when you have a potentially dangerous lack of depth on the wing.
Don’t think about the lean times of the past when 1 injury to Zaza would leave us useless in the middle. Look at our roster NOW. We’re a playoff team with 6 big men under contract. I won’t object to burning one more on a PF/C. But you have to be consciously ignoring the depth chart to say we have any need at all two burn two.
niremetal
October 3rd, 2009
2:24 pm
*to burn two
niremetal
October 3rd, 2009
2:31 pm
KevinA,
We can sign players and ‘option’ them to the D-League (as it were) if need be. If we take the sign-and-assign route, other teams can’t touch them…but we have to pay that player a full NBA salary and he still takes up one of the 15 roster spots. If we don’t sign the player to an NBA contract, other teams are free to sign him whenever, even if he plays with our D-League “affiliate” (Anaheim, which is also the D-League affiliate for the Clippers).
And honestly, I have no idea whether a player gets better experience playing games in the D-League or playing in practices in the NBA. It probably depends on whether he’s starting on the D-League team and on how well the practices are run on the NBA team. My natural inclination is that it’s usually better to play in both practice and games against fringe-NBA talent than it is to just practice against real NBA talent. But with the depth we have now, who knows…maybe it’s better to keep them traveling with the team.
niremetal
October 3rd, 2009
2:41 pm
I’ll also admit that this is all influenced by The Breaks of the Game, a book I read on an injury-ravaged Blazers team from the ‘79-’80 season. You could only dress 10 players a night back then, and they had to scramble and sign a Continental League player just to fill out those 10 spots at one point. They too many undersized guards, way too many PFs, not enough wings or Cs, and consequently had guys playing out of position for much of the year, which led to more injuries (which happens more often when you have PFs chasing around quicker wings and trying to muscle up against bigger Cs). Wasn’t a pretty season…
Ariose
October 3rd, 2009
2:57 pm
Nire, thats fine, but when has Othello ever proven he can play SF? I’ve been calling for an extra wing this whole summer(or at LEASt Flip so JJ can swing to the SF if need be) Obvioulsy Rick has other plans though. I’m just looking at the current possibilities that Rick has given us based the players that he has signed for training camp. Othello has never played SF and he has no credentials as a great peremeter shooter(despite what Sekous says….he says he improved, but where was he coming from in the first place? Bad to tolerable? Good to Great?). So, i’m going to assume he’s still an undersized PF unless Sekou et al. informs me otherwise. If we look at him in that light(as an undersized PF) then we can obviously do a lot better(like I said, he’s no Brandon Bass). Siler and/or Sims(23&10) are clearly better fits at PF/C than Othello.
Lets not rule out the possibility of Rick only signing one training camp FA (Likely Siler) if Woodson doesn’t like what he sees from the rest. That leaves the door open for Sund to still go out and Sign a wing(Green, Stackhouse, or Wally Sczerbiack) that’s probaby what Woodson prefers anyway knowing him.
I cannot accept Othello as a wing when there are tons of players out there better suited for the job that we can aquire for roghly the same price…..BTW, aren’t the players talking Campionchip? Somehow I don’t think Othello fits with that mold.
Ariose
October 3rd, 2009
3:00 pm
*championship
Ariose
October 3rd, 2009
3:05 pm
Also, I seriouly doubt we sign one of those guars. Especially Dixon(i’m not even going to go there lol…). Teauge is going to embarass them all anyway(just like he did during the minicamp). If we need a third guard, PDX has plenty of them. We can just trade for Patty Mills….he’s be a nice 3rd guard (even though we need size lol)
Ariose
October 3rd, 2009
3:07 pm
*guards
*Teague
BTW, he wouldn’t embarass Mills in Training Camp…..and Mike Wilks is 31….
Ariose
October 3rd, 2009
3:11 pm
Tweets From Hawks PR man Arthur Triche:
“Finally, some scrimmage action will take place…guaranteed! Why?? Because the officials are here”
“Blue Team (mostly starters) beat the White Team, 43-30 in 2 quarters of scrimmage Saturday. First unit looked real good, no surprise there.”
“Johnson led Blue unit w/10 pts, Smith had 9, Bibby 8, while Garrett Siler had 7 for the White team. Woodson said he would go 3 qtrs Sunday.”
“Teague didn’t score in his first action, was paired with Jamal Crawford on the White squad.”
niremetal
October 3rd, 2009
3:46 pm
Ariose,
Hey, you’ll never see me call for us to go after Wilks
. My take is that we need a combo forward, a swingman, and maybe a combo guard – ie we need guys who can switch between the 4 smallest positions on the floor. The reasoning is simple: Right now, we’ve got 5 guys under contract who we would expect to be able to provide minutes at PF/C (Horford, Zaza, Collins, Joe Smith, and RandMo), 4 guys at PF (Josh, Joe Smith, Horford, RandMo), but only 3 guys at SF (Marvin, Mo, JJ), 3 at SG (JJ, Crawford, Mo), and 3-4 at PG (I know you can name those 
).
You can argue that Josh should be counted at SF if you want…but then you have to accede to counting Marvin at PF because Marvin played significantly more PF minutes than Josh played SF minutes last year. Again, check that 82games link – according to it, Josh spent zero time at SF last year, your memory to the contrary notwithstanding
. And that makes perfect sense, because it has become pretty clear, I think, that on both ends of the floor, Josh’s tools make him a nightmare around the basket for opposing teams, and an unpleasant dream on the perimeter for us (even moreso than his perimeter offensive game, his on-ball perimeter D is atrocious). So the idea that he can be expected to play minutes at the 3 HAS TO END.
As for Hunter, from the sounds of the way he was playing during minicamp, Hunter has worked hard to turn himself into a combo forward. His issue was never that he didn’t have the athleticism to play the 3…like with Josh, the question is one of finesse, touch, and handles. The summer coverage made it sound like he improved his jumper and his handles significantly.
Anyway, I have a feeling he will at least survive long enough to play a few pre-season games, and we’ll see how he’s doing then. If he doesn’t look capable of providing minutes at the 3 and if the Smiths stay healthy through camp, then I will reluctantly agree that he should be cut.
In any case, we have absolutely, positively, and in every freaking way NO NEED for another player whose only positions are PF and C.
I’m really not trying to pick on you, Ariose, and I think you know that. This all really dawned on me when I was in Italy and I looked at our post-Collins signing roster and that 82games link. I consciously forced myself to divorce from the past and realize that it’s no longer 2004-2007. Josh isn’t a wing, we don’t need bigs, and ASG has spent the money needed to fill out the entire 12-man active roster with 11 vets and a first round draft picks, all getting guaranteed money before training camp had even started – that last part was something that even I, the eternal defender of ASG, didn’t expect to happen.
The time for big man projects is over. The remaining spots need to be taken by people who might actually be needed this year. 4 guys would need to get hurt before Woody would be forced to play Siler or Sims, if they were on the roster. Only 2 guys would have to get hurt before Woody would be forced to play Mario West or (if he can play SF) Othello Hunter, if they were on the roster.
Maybe we need to send all our fans into a hypnosis chamber…that might be the only way to get everyone to realize that the face of this team has totally changed from 2-3 years ago.
cp
October 3rd, 2009
3:53 pm
How is Siler or Sims better than Hunter? Hunter has actually played in real NBA games. He has been talked about all summer from guys on the team and guys who cover the team as a player that has improved greatly. He also played well in those two NBDL games from last season. I fail to understand how two guys, one who has never played an NBA minute, are better than a guy who knows the system and is getting praised by a coach who rarely gives any young guys and type of props. Ariose im with you on some things but I don’t get your stance on Hunter at all. Gardner was putting up 20 a game when he played in the NBDL too so should we bring him back also? Even Sund was talking about how much he liked Hunter and how he could be a diamond in the rough if given time and opportunity. I still think Hunter and Siler make the team.
Ariose
October 3rd, 2009
4:25 pm
Nire, I have no problems admitting that we are stocked at the PF/C position. But, like I said. What has Rick given us to work with in Training camp? Ray, asked me who would be a “Diamond in the Rough” out of the training camp invitees. I just call it like I see it. Siler & Sims are better prospects with more potential than Othello Hunter and Mario West. Now looking OUTSIDE of who rick filled our trainig camp roster with, there are TONS of options. I do not think the best option is on the trainig camp invite roster. Like I said, Stack, Green, or Wally would be ideal. BUT looking at the traing camp roster: I’d either go with Siler, Sims, or Frank Robinson. We could ALSO use Siler/Sims in trades….I think their size would be appealing to some teams looking to deal(likely a team dumping a bigger salary but want youth in return).
As far as Josh not being able to play SF, we just going to have to disagree. I’ve said many times that the best use of his “skills” and the position that maximies his ability is the PF position, BUT if need be, i’d rather have him at SF than Othello Hunter ANYDAY and I think most would agree with me there.
I know what you’re thinking. From an offensive standpoint that’s a HORRIBLE idea. I agree, but look at our personell. He ONLY has to play the SF role on the defensive end. Al Horfod and Joe Smith (our other resident Power Forwards) are BOTH significantly better shooters than Josh smith. So, on OFFEENSE, Josh can park his butt in the paint where he belongs and Joe Smith or Horford can pick and Pop with our guards on the peremeter. This does not leave us at a disadvantage either b/c it will be Smooove and whoever the Center(Zaza or collins) is at the time down in the paint collecting offensive rebounds etc. Problem solved. This also gives us an advantage. Al/Joe Smith gets a Big out of the paint on offense while Smoove gets to rebound/score against his smaller Wing counterpart. Win/Win
…..and I dont care what 82games said. I know smoove played minutes at SF last season dammit! SEKOU KNOWS THE TRUTH!!!!!
I left Mario off, he can play SF I agree, but Rick is really slipping what about Stack? What about G.Green($800K!!!!)
niremetal
October 3rd, 2009
4:29 pm
You forgot the ($800k!!!!!!!) on the first pass, Ariose
Ariose
October 3rd, 2009
4:30 pm
CP, he did play well in those NBDL games, But did he average 23&10 in the NBDL like Sims did? I aagre, Hunter has potential, but like Ray said, this is a better training camp (player-potential wise) than we’ve had in a long time. I just thinks there’s bettter prospects than Othello. I could be worong, It’s just my opinion. I’m open to being wrong, whater makes the team better is what I want. But right now, without any real scrimmage action to pull from i’d have to say that Siler/Sims > Othello Hunter.
Ariose
October 3rd, 2009
4:41 pm
Nire lol….I just like Rick i’m slipping ha.
cp
October 3rd, 2009
4:47 pm
No he didn’t because he was busy being in the NBA. I feel you Ariose but I still don’t see how either are better projects. One guy put up 23 and 10 in the NBDL but still couldn’t stick on a roster. I’m sure if we would have left Gardner or Othello down there they would have put up monster numbers too. The fact that Woody is praising Hunter is enough for me. Like I said the coach, players, and guys who cover the team are impressed with him. I haven’t seen those comments about the other two. But we will see who does make the team. Its crazy how we are actually debating who will make the last two roster spots lol. In years past these guys would have been the 7th or 8th man off the bench. My how times have changed around here.
Ariose
October 3rd, 2009
4:52 pm
Cp, I agree lol. It’s really sad hehehe… But it’s a good problem to have. Regardless, I still say we win 55-60. That’s my nuber and i’m sticking to it
Ariose
October 3rd, 2009
4:55 pm
CP, you might be right though. Plying against Josh Smith and Al Horford in practice every day probably has othlello way more prepared than Sims is. Nire, is probably right though, I just need a hypnotist to get rid of this lingering big man sydrome i’ve aquired over the last 5 years.
Ariose
October 3rd, 2009
5:33 pm
“Jones finished the game with 11 points, 7 rebounds and 3 blocks in 25 minutes. He was able to get to the line and also showed the ability to hit the 12-15 foot shot from around the free throw line. Very nice debut for the big fella in front of the home fans.”
http://www.indycornrows.com/2009/10/2/1067100/bulls-104-pacers-95-plenty-to
niremetal
October 3rd, 2009
6:04 pm
Yeah, Indy is a good fit for Solo with its uptempo game and help-heavy D (read: no one can defend one-on-one, so there’s lots of opportunities for blocks).
We’ve seen the same thing play out here – once Marvin stepped up his D, Josh got a lot fewer blocks simply because he had fewer opportunities to get blocks. Josh’s D didn’t backslide this past year; he just didn’t need to flex his shot-blocking muscles as much as he used to.
Yet another reason why whoever created the box score should be shot.
KevinA
October 3rd, 2009
6:14 pm
I hope we didn’t dump Jones for salary cap issues = trying to free it up for JJ. I understand Joe Smith/Collins has seasoned experience but at some point youth makes up for experience. Jones really never hurt us with limited playing time and if he works out for the Pacers it will be hard to swallow.
Did ya’ll forget to comment on the defense of the guards allowing JJ at the #3? Lets lay the line in concrete. Will they be good enough at defense or are you willing to back down a little from the great expectations of Crawford and Teague. Not willing to get in to blood here. Just pointing out differences in opinions. As always I am interested in yours.
KevinA
October 3rd, 2009
6:27 pm
niremetal
October 3rd, 2009
2:23 pm
Again – the problem is that if any two of the four players I mentioned get hurt (Mo, Crawford, JJ, Marvin), we will have NO ONE left on the roster who is capable of playing the 2, and NO ONE who played more than a handful of minutes at the 3 last year. Not one player.
When I suggested we resign Flip – just in case – I was inundated with comments that we were already overloaded at these positions. Now Larry Brown is happy to have Flip who can play the #1 or #2 spot for hardly nothing. West is and will not be the answer – Flip could have been. Yep – would have cost a million. Million well spent.
niremetal
October 3rd, 2009
6:34 pm
Solo’s salary in 2010-2011 is just $1.5M and expiring to boot, which would make it a piece of cake to unload in a trade, so it’s really not a cap concern. It’s never too hard to sell teams on acquiring young, cheap big men with expiring contracts. Even if that weren’t the case, the “cap hold” rules mean that we’re saving pretty much no money in cap/tax space by not signing Solo.
If Solo succeeds in Indy, it will speak much more to Woody’s failure to utilize him than to any cap concern issues. If he’d played 15 minutes a game here and shown something in those minutes, the Hawks wouldn’t have felt the need to go out and ‘replace’ Solo with a couple veteran. As it stands, he played sporadically and usually for less than 12 minutes when he played at all. And even when he did get in, I don’t think he saw a single play run for him.
Remember the story when Solo left that said that Sund and Woody sat him down and told him bluntly that he wouldn’t get any more PT than he did in the past, even if he stayed. That pretty much tells you all you need to know about why he didn’t get re-signed.
KevinA
October 3rd, 2009
6:45 pm
Mercy GA comes back, wild game
KevinA
October 3rd, 2009
6:47 pm
Like I said, hard to swallow. Nobody said Woody was perfect.
niremetal
October 3rd, 2009
6:57 pm
Kevin,
As to Flip…
First, getting a combo guard was third on my list of priorities (after combo forward and swingman).
Second, I’m talking about a training camp guy who can play in an emergency, not a rotation player. Which leads to…
Third, the issue with Flip for ME at least was less “he’s too expensive” than “every minute he plays will be a minute that otherwise would have gone to Teague.” I have no problem getting a training camp guy who will play behind Teague and only get PT in garbage time and if disaster strikes.
But – and this is the final and biggest point – Flip would never have agreed to such a role. He is coming off a career year, and I can’t imagine he’d ever accept the role of 3rd guard off the bench. Remember this isn’t NBA Live…we can’t just offer a player a contract and get him to take it.
That was my thing. If I were Sund, I wouldn’t bring in Flip if he was going to take minutes from Teague. And Flip wouldn’t have agreed to come here and take on a role without those minutes. So there was no plausible way to get him here without stunting Teague’s growth.
That’s also, by the way, why I’m heavily opposed to Wilks. I definitely could see Woody giving Wilks the minutes that could have gone to Teague, simply because Wilks is more ready to contribute right now and Woody tends to be shortsighted…
niremetal
October 3rd, 2009
7:25 pm
I should follow my own lead from the other blog and temper my certainty-tinged “Flip would never have agreed to such a role” to just what I said after that – I can’t imagine that he’d accept that role. But I do think that is a pretty safe bet…
KevinA
October 3rd, 2009
7:29 pm
I disagree with you on the reasoning of not signing a player because it might slow another’s players development. To me that is nuts. No offense. Like mentioned before, this is not NBA Play station, it’s a mans game. For all we know Teague may be great or an Acie washout.
You have an excellent point that Flip may have not wanted to sign with us because of potential playing time. I wish we could ask Flip that question. In a fair world, Bibby/Crawford /Flip/Teague would all fight for minutes based on performance and execution, not preconditions.
I just saw an interview with Chauncy Billips. He mentioned taking 4-5 years before finding himself. Who else fits into that category for the Hawks? Josh/Marvin/Chills/ZaZ/Al? We are still looking at upside potential.
I do not blame Sund or Woody. Maybe the reason we can’t do all the deals has something to do with the fact we are losing 20 mil a year. Us bloggers don’t know all the facts. We just have to make educated guesses.
niremetal
October 3rd, 2009
7:43 pm
Well, in any case, I think the money was better spent shoring up our big man depth. Like many have said, it’s a very good sign that we’re now arguing about who should take the 12th and 13th spots on the roster…
KevinA
October 3rd, 2009
7:53 pm
Can agree with that.
Big Ray
October 4th, 2009
12:05 am
Heh.
The originator of the box score need not be shot, Nire .
If it weren’t that, it would be something else. You know the deal with stats. They are always going to help or convolute any view of a player.
Big Ray
October 4th, 2009
12:10 am
Thanks once again to Ariose for his link to the Dime Mag write up.
Big Ray
October 4th, 2009
12:13 am
From that link sprang THIS one, which should make interesting reading for any NBA fan, specifically Hawks fans, and even moreso for fans of Al Horford:
http://dimemag.com/2009/08/five-centers-to-watch-for-2009-10/
Big Ray
October 4th, 2009
12:21 am
Too bad Joe or Bibby can’t do for Al Horford what Chris Paul will be doing for Emeka Okafor.
But then, Joe’s not a pg, he’s a sg.
That’s why I’m keeping my eye on Teague for the future. As good as our present backcourt is, the only hope for Horford (more touches in the offense) where our veteran backcourt members are concerned, may actually lie with Crawford, oddly enough (and wouldn’t that shock some folks). And that’s if he really means what he says about passing. Otherwise, it’s Teague. And he won’t be playing but so much this year. With Joe in a contract year and trying to show that he’s an elite player instead of just a really good one, Al may not stand a chance.
Get ready for another season of 11 and 10 per game, with unwarranted criticism of his offensive game… sigh …
MyView
October 4th, 2009
2:41 am
Since Joe plays so many mins., along with Bibby, Teague, and Crawford, I would rather have another big. Seems like you can never get enough of those.
MyView
October 4th, 2009
2:55 am
The national media is not crediting the Hawks enough, and giving the supposed “Big 3″ in the east too much credit. The Celtics are old and it will show this season. Orlando added flash at the expense of cohesion and a 4th qtr recipe that was effective with Turk. Cleveland is still LeBron plus 4 even with Shaq and their cohesion may not be as good which is where they decided game last year. Bottom line, the rest of the “Big 3″ have flaws that can easily derail them to 4th behind the Hawks. So don’t believe the hype Hawks fans. This is setting up to be a special season so let’s get behind these guys.
One thing the college ranking system does is make the media take notice. The NFL notices the true contenders, but basketball media seems to go with history vs the current make-up of its teams.
HAWKSSSSSS44
October 4th, 2009
3:37 am
Y Do people think we need twelve big man.. my gosh.. we got al,josh,joe,zaza,collins, thats enough.. we need another athletic 3 who can play 2 and can guard the bigger quicker 3’s in the league.. stackhouse will do.. say crawfard or joe gets hurt. who is the backup SG then?? nobody cuz u people want all big men..
Big Ray
October 4th, 2009
10:56 pm
Told y’all Crawford was nasty.
Big Ray
October 4th, 2009
10:59 pm
“we need another athletic 3 who can play 2 and can guard the bigger quicker 3’s in the league.. stackhouse will do..”
Makes sense, but how do you find the balance between somebody who can contribute decently when called upon, but won’t be unhappy with basically not playing until/if that time comes?
HAWKSSSSSS44
October 5th, 2009
1:33 am
Yea big ray u have a great point.. If u wany somebody who will take the bench riding i say go or gerald green… If we get stack u kno hes not there to sit on the bench so that takes away minutes from mo (who is actually a key piece) and crawford and maybe minutes from teague… We have 5 bigs, bibby, teague, joe, craw, marv, and mo.. Thats 11.. I say we get gerald green and make 12 then leave open a roster spot for maybe a postseason move like the celtics do.. Who would u go after big ray? And i think we should run pick and roll more wit horford becuz he seems to have a jumper.. Not with smoove becuz he mite back up and shoot the 3 ball lol..
HAWKSSSSSS44
October 5th, 2009
1:35 am
I meant go *for gerald green
Big Ray
October 5th, 2009
2:53 am
Gerald Green, eh? Hmmmm, now where have I heard that suggestion before…
Big Ray
October 5th, 2009
2:55 am
Solo looking good in Indy.
Stephon Curry looking good in Golden State.
Acie Law looking….at a season of DNPs…
Daniel
October 5th, 2009
8:49 am
hey guys, I don’t know which blog has the action. In terms of training camp invitees. I assume we are going to take two players that don’t already have a contract. I have begun to accept the fact that RandMo will be on this team again (I hope he realizes how lucky he is). Based on team needs I see the Hawks going with Hunter and Mario, again. The obviously need another guard, preferably a point, Mario already has Woodson’s support so I doubt Dixon or Robinson can beat him out. We will see. Hunter gives another body to play the swing position, which after Mo is thin. Sims and Siler will be back in the D-league.
WR
October 5th, 2009
9:54 am
Big Ray, nice read, I really like this Hawks team, the combination of veterans and youth could and should lead to something special. For the first time in a while, I think the team can be very sustainable even in the face of injuries, hopefully they won’t happen but history has taught us otherwise. I’m hoping for the best from Joe as he tries to prove he belongs amongst the elite, if he has any sense at all he will quickly realize that Crawford may be the biggest key to him getting there. The biggest difference between Crawford and Joe in my opinion is that Crawford doesn’t believe he can be stopped, even if all five guys on the opposing team are trying to guard him, Joe tends to fizzle amongst constant double teams, so hopefully this year he will make a liar out of me.
Brian
October 5th, 2009
5:59 pm
I would love to see Frank Robinson make the team, he seriously doesn’t get enough publicity as he should.
Big Ray
October 5th, 2009
9:13 pm
WR ,
Great to have you around! I like this Hawks team as well. Interesting viewpoint of Joe vs. Jamal.
Jamal gets knocked for his shooting percentage, and you’re right: he doesn’t meet a shot he doesn’t like. People rather conveniently tend to assume that he’s never met a double team before, and say that his shot selection is just bad.
Conversely, Joe’s shoots a mere 3% better from the field, and automatically it’s everybody’s fault but his own. He faces double teams (I think there are other people in the NBA who do as well). He’s tired (is he the only one?). It’s always something.
And none of it is untrue. But he talks about becoming an elite player. The better you are, the more teams gameplan for you. It’s not how many double teams you are subject to, or how many minutes you play (ask Dwyane Wade, who sees every bit as much as JJ does, on a less talented team). It’s what you do when it happens. What you do to help your teammates help you .
We can even blame Woody for how the offensive runs. And there is some merit in that.
But who’s the team captain? Who’s the guy on the floor? Who does the offense run around? Who has the most influence on the head coach? Who is supposed to be the leader? .
If you ask me, that’s the difference between elite….and NOT.
chuckw/deadjournalist
October 5th, 2009
9:49 pm
nobody called me out on this, but it was driving me nuts.
it wasn’t wojo in ‘98 it was jeff sheppard. same difference.
Big Ray
October 5th, 2009
10:54 pm
ChuckW ,
We’re slipping, so I guess you got a freebie, lol!
niremetal
October 5th, 2009
11:06 pm
Ray,
Well, “mere 3%” is misleading. That’s a bigger difference than your statement lets on. In baseball, 3% is the difference between Ichiro and Shannon Stewart. Closer to the point, if you’re going to use that basis, then Joe shot a “mere 3%” less from the field last season than he did in ‘06-’07. But that 3% accounts for about half of the difference between his 25ppg then and 21.4ppg now. Now what’s the reason for that 3% drop? Well that takes me to…
On the topic of D-Wade and Joe. Well, I’ve never said that JJ is as good as Wade (although he is less of a whiny little turd than Wade). BUT if you’ll recall our conversation from last season, it doesn’t take a lot of time of comparing Hawks and Heat game on League Pass to realize that teams double JJ both a bit more quickly and with taller defenders than they do with Wade (who almost always is doubled by the opposing PG). That extra second of time and several degrees of court vision gives Wade much more of a chance to see the floor and decide on the right move. Hopefully having Crawford around will help that.
But REALLY, we need an offense that involves more ball movement and more off-ball movement. Only then will teams stop collapsing on JJ the second the ball heads in his direction.
And this really is not fair:
But who’s the team captain? Who’s the guy on the floor? Who does the offense run around? Who has the most influence on the head coach? Who is supposed to be the leader?
Come on, now. It’s not JJ’s job to design the offense. To my knowledge, NO elite player has ever had to go and TELL their coach that they need to re-design their offense. Michael and Kobe didn’t have to tell Phil Jackson to design and run the triangle, which forced defenders to stay at home for longer (and I’ll remind you that the switch from Collins to Jackson did not meet with MJ’s approval). No one had to tell Pat Riley to design an uptempo offense to run for Showtime or a more traditional offense when he had Wade and Shaq. No one had to tell Chuck Daly to design a defensive scheme that minimized Isiah’s help defense responsibilities so he could be fresher on the other end. No one had to tell Popovich to run a high post offense with Duncan. No one had to tell Larry Brown…oh, you get the idea.
Isn’t it a little unfair to ask JJ to do things that these other elite players never had to do?
Big Ray
October 5th, 2009
11:44 pm
Niremetal ,
Great counterpoints, as always. A handful of side boggles:
“Come on, now. It’s not JJ’s job to design the offense.”
Did you miss this part? “We can even blame Woody for how the offensive runs. And there is some merit in that.”
Nowhere did I suggest that the team’s offense is JJ’s fault. How are my rhetorical questions unfair? Don’t they all have the same answer? Or does somebody else’s name fit there?
“But REALLY, we need an offense that involves more ball movement and more off-ball movement. Only then will teams stop collapsing on JJ the second the ball heads in his direction.”
Very true. But there are other things to consider here as well. I think we both have criticized Woody’s offensive aspirations often enough. And we’ve both agreed over the course of a year or so that he relies on his vets (more specifically his backcourt vets) for offensive endeavors. Hate to repeat this, but that means Bibby and JJ (and Flip last year). And with Joe, we’re talking about a guy who has the ball in his hands all the time. Do you agree that the offense revolves around Joe? With Joe, we’re talking about a guy who has free reign. We’re talking about a guy who is sucking wind, but tells his coach he doesn’t want to come out (there goes all that argument about how many minutes he plays…OUCH). So, we’re not just talking about Woody (though I put a lot of it on him). We’re also talking about Joe.
“To my knowledge, NO elite player has ever had to go and TELL their coach that they need to re-design their offense.”
Probably quite true. Yet elite players have the trust of their coach and the relationship is more of a partnership than it is teacher/student. Phil had that with both Kobe and Jordan. Popovich has it with Duncan. Two more things: Phil didn’t design and run the triangle offense. Tex Winter did. And JJ said he WANTS to become an elite player, implying that he currently is not. So according to his own words, does he fit this part of the argument from a hypothetical or analogical standpoint? Yes, the devil is in the details sometimes.
As for the field goal percentage, you make a great point about how much of a difference it makes from certain viewpoints.
I really don’t like to use comparisons of JJ and Wade. I think there is a reason why teams go after JJ quicker with the double team, and with taller players. Here’s why (in my opinion):
1)Wade isn’t going to stick around for the double team. Not for nothing do they call him “Flash.” He either makes his move or gives the ball up. And he’s quick (”Flash!”) and not so big, so trying to double him without at least one of the defenders being a point guard is downright foolish.
2)Conversely, JJ will hang onto the ball, and has the incredible ability to play keep-away against up to three defenders. But he’s not nearly as quick as Wade, and therefore cannot move away from the double team once he’s up against it. Oddly enough, more often than not when caught against the double team, JJ is either near the sideline or somewhere in line with the hash mark. Almost never at the top of the key. Therefore, he is more easily trapped if the double team comes quickly.
3)And the taller defenders? Any opposing team MUST use those kinds of defenders, as JJ is bigger and stronger than many 2-guards in the league. Seriously, how many 6′7″ 240 guys do you see playing the 2? Most are playing the 3, and some are even undersized 4s (are guys like Milsap, Haslem, and Landry really any bigger than JJ?). Not to mention, JJ has a high b-ball IQ and can see the court. Taller defenders are a must if you want to cut off his court vision.
niremetal
October 5th, 2009
11:58 pm
Chicken or egg argument with #2 there, Ray – isn’t it possible that JJ hangs onto the ball because the defense gets to him more quickly, thereby cutting off the option of him making a quick move to split the double without leaving himself open to being stripped? I would suggest that’s the answer, since NO ONE accused JJ of holding the ball too long when he was in Phoenix, or even in his first year here in Atlanta.
And yes, JJ is taller. But Wade is usually doubled by guys who are 6′1 or 6′2. With JJ, he’s usually the 6′8 or 6′9. And it’s this case, it’s the relative height that’s important – Wade is covered by players shorter than him, and JJ is covered by players taller than him. Take that for what you will.
Night, all.
Big Ray
October 6th, 2009
5:21 am
Nire ,
You’re right, nobody accused him of holding onto the ball too long in Phoenix. Seems I recall he was the 4th option on offense until Nash went down…..And to be honest, the way he played there is a bit different than the way he plays here.
I know what the immediate alibi is: it has to do with the offense D’Antoni ran and the caliber of players he was surrounded with. All too true.
At the same time, I think the double team gets to JJ quickly for one reason: every team knows what our primary offensive game plan begins and ends with, so there is no need to figure it out. Hence, the quick/immediate double teams. Unfortunately, nobody has really been doing anything to change that. Not Woody, not JJ, not anybody. As to where most of the blame for that gets spread, I think that there is no disagreement between you and I
.
Big Ray
October 6th, 2009
5:30 am
My point about what kind of guys double Wade versus what kind double JJ was intent upon showing how different the two guys are, not who is better than who.
Guys who are 6′1 and 6′2 tend to be faster guys who can stay in front of Wade, and who would have a better shot at harassing his dribble. There are very, very few guys Wade’s height or taller that can match his speed. And everything he does is based on his superior speed. He may be considered a “superstar”, but like you said, he can be a whiny turd, and I think Mo Evans summed it up best when he said that those guys don’t like to be touched. Wade is tough (he always gets back up). But he’s not physical . I noticed that in the playoffs, he dunks all fancy…when he’s open. But he doesn’t dunk on people like Lebron or Kobe will. Or Dwight (obviously). Evans is right, he doesn’t like being touched or hit.
On the other hand, JJ is a much more physical specimen than many give him credit for (including the entire national sports media). He takes plenty of hits ALL the time, and doesn’t get 1/3 the calls that Lebron gets. Taller players are a must, as with his size, range of movement, and superior ball-handling skills, he can hit some of the most difficult shots. He takes some shots that Wade really can’t attempt, despite his own incredible athleticism.
In fact, I’ve seen Joe take some shot that only guys like Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant, Vince Carter, and maybe Kevin Durant can take. Shots with a great degree of difficulty. I’ll also argue that JJ’s handle is stronger than Wade’s….
Big Ray
October 6th, 2009
5:32 am
Hence, if you try and cover JJ with players his size or shorter, it’s nearly always a failed effort, as he can shoot over most of them, as he has shown time and again with his high floaters in the lane, and his lengthy fade aways.
vava74
October 6th, 2009
9:43 am
Big Ray,
I think you finally hit the right note on your next to last post: JJ does not get the calls Wade and Lebron get which should account for him shooting at least 3 to 5 FTs more per game.
Furthermore, Wade and Lebron get away with at least 3 or 4 blatant palm and travelling offences per game, giving them and their teams an incredible unfair advantage.
With just those two issues corrected the difference between JJ and the so-called super stars would be greatly diminished and the respective teams’ record would also reflect that with a few more wins to the Hawks and few less wins for the Cavs and the Heat.
At this level of competition the slightest of differences makes a huge impact in the end.
MannyT
October 6th, 2009
10:06 am
Live streaming of camp…RIGHT NOW
http://www.nba.com/realtrainingcamp/
WR
October 6th, 2009
10:18 am
Big Ray and vava74, great points on the officiating but consider this, Joe is quiet in his demeanor, when he does receive bad calls the best you can expect is maybe a frown and throwing his hands in the air. The elite players are constantly working the officials, its part of the game. Even some non-elites work the officials and get away with some awful calls just ask Fisher in LA. If Joe wants to get those calls he has to open his mouth, everyone that remembers the great Micheal Jordan ought to remember him constantly working the officials, when teams were shoot free throws where was Jordan, during timeouts after the huddle where was Jordan, he was always working the officials thats where. Look at Wade, Lebron, Kobe, Chris Paul, Paul Pierce, they live at the free throw line because there constantly on the officials. Now look at a Tim Duncan, yet another quiet star, yes he does get his, but he could get much more if he actually worked the officials as the good ones do.
All of the greats past and present were professionals at getting in the minds of officials, Bird and Magic were two of the best. Most probably will disagree but how good was Clyde Drexler at the sametime how many calls was he really getting in his favor, not many in comparison to others with his abilities,why, because he didn’t work the officials enough. In my opinion if Joe wants to become one of the elite, it will start with him opening his mouth.
KevinA
October 6th, 2009
5:07 pm
Enter your comments here
KevinA
October 6th, 2009
5:29 pm
JJ shoots floaters and many times leans out when he drives. Many times I here JJ is unfairly ignored and does not get the call when driving to the lane. You may be right on one level but for the most part I think JJ gets called on his style of play. Marvin does not have that problem because he is looking for contact. JJ does not on a consistent basis. Percentage wise Smooth gets more calls because they try to hinder his high flying act. If JJ went to the hole with force – he would get the call more often – the finesse stuff just won’t get it. We have to man up and accept what the refs are calling. If JJ wants the call he needs to bang. A smart player would adjust to the ref’s call.
niremetal
October 6th, 2009
7:49 pm
KevinA,
Good points. But I do want to say that I don’t think the Paul Pierce/Manu Ginobili model (create contact) is inherently better than the Ray Allen/Tony Parker model (create separation). JJ certainly falls more into the latter category, with his array of jumpers, floaters, and hesitation-step moves. That model does have its drawbacks, mainly that they can have horrible-looking games when their shots aren’t falling. But the contact-creation strategy also has drawbacks – how many times have we seen Manu and Pierce flail their arms and turn the ball over when they don’t get the call?
JJ is what he is, and he is one of the best “finesse” players in the game today, if not the best. There’s a long tradition of guys like him being 20ppg scorers on title-winning or contending teams, from elites like Monroe/Bird/Drexler to “mere All-Stars” like Toney/Dumars/Pippen/TParker/RAllen. JJ’s style is fine as long as he’s not our first and second scoring option…
Big Ray
October 6th, 2009
9:04 pm
WR ,
Very nice point about the officiating. A lot of people miss that, including me. Garnett is famous for it as well.
Nire ,
I’d also say that JJ has a superior handle to both Wade and Lebron. Seriously. Lebron has to bully and use his big body to get by defenders or keep them at bay. He will also use a serious of moves (again, keeping the body between the ball and the defender) in and around various defenders.
Wade relies on quickness/speed.
JJ? As long as he has room to work with and doesn’t pick up the ball….dude can keep any two, and sometimes THREE defenders from getting it. It’s incredible. Unfortunately it is also necessary at times, and habit-forming at other times. But those times should be over now. Can’t wait to see what he can do this year.
Sautee
October 7th, 2009
10:14 am
Ray,
Those times SHOULD be over now. But does JJ recognize that?
niremetal
October 7th, 2009
12:16 pm
Sautee,
If JJ keeps getting the ball and no one else moves to get open, we’ll be back to square one and we’ll keep on having these arguments ad nauseum. Having Crawford around won’t make a difference if Woody keeps calling ISO Joe and everyone else keeps standing around doing nothing when JJ gets the ball on those plays.
Again, the idea that JJ is a ballhog/selfish player who doesn’t trust his teammates just doesn’t jive with the player he was from 2001 to 2006. No one called him a ballhog until the ISO Joe era started in 2006.
Joe’s recognition will be irrelevant if the offensive “wrinkles” consist merely of Jamal standing still on the wing instead of Flip.
Sautee
October 7th, 2009
8:31 pm
nire,
“Having Crawford around won’t make a difference if Woody keeps calling ISO Joe and everyone else keeps standing around doing nothing when JJ gets the ball on those plays.”
IF, (and that’s a big IF) Woody keeps calling Iso-Joe with the options he has, and with the young’uns presumably somewhat better, then they had BETTER win, or Woody will be toast. He’s making the same noises about running, and moving the ball around. Let’s hope he’s as good as his word.
Fool me three times and I’ll be likely to leave.
Wabe
October 8th, 2009
12:00 am
Won’t lie, I’ve been in Falcons mode lately, but had to come in and check up on how my Hawks kicked off the year. I see Teague had himself a good game and looks to be promising. I’m not as sure what the deal is with the offense as of now, but I’m hoping we’re now in the business of running some half-court sets instead of relying on the ISO’s and the fastbreak opportunities. This team has plenty of options. Everybody returning outside of Flip from last years roster, and now you add guys like Crawford, Teague, Collins, and Joe Smith to the mix – I think we’ve got something to be excited about this year.
Still too early to talk about how great a run we could put together, we’ll see how things go when the season kicks off.
Big Ray
October 8th, 2009
2:21 am
Well, I think the idea of Teague being able to score right out of the gate is a wash. Oh wait, I forgot. It’s preseason, which means we don’t really know if Teague can score or not….
As for our offense, I can remember plenty of times where guys were NOT standing around, and were actually moving. Lots of lob opportunities lost. Lots of slash opportunities. At some point, a guy who runs around the court trying to move without the ball will lose interest in doing so, if he’s not getting it nearly enough. Standing around isn’t always just about the design of the offense. Sometimes it’s about trusting your teammates to take and make shots, even if they don’t always make them.
This is what our veteran guards need to remember. Bibby doesn’t seem to have that problem. I think we all remember the famous incident when he passed it to a wide open Josh Smith, even if he was not in the most optimal position to score. What’s the excuse for not passing it to him when he’s flashing to the rim?
KevinA
October 8th, 2009
8:31 am
Yep just one preseason game under the belt. Teague played great, at least on offense. One thing that was very importand was the way the Hawks limited turn overs. Even with Teague, Hunter, ZaZa and West getting big minutes.
One downside was CP3 running amock with little trouble, but then again he may be the best in the league at doing that from the pg position.
I did not see or hear the game. Can anybody report on the amount of iso plays?
niremetal
October 8th, 2009
3:22 pm
At some point, a guy who runs around the court trying to move without the ball will lose interest in doing so, if he’s not getting it nearly enough.
Well even if I agreed with that premise (which I don’t), what came first, the chicken or the egg? Even assuming JJ did ignore open teammates occassionally, might not the explanation be that you eventually stop looking for teammates to get open if no one moves to get open nearly enough?
Again – in Phoenix, JJ played in an offense where there was constant off-ball movement. No one called him a ballhog then. He gets 6 assists per game, one of the top 20 in the league in that category, so clearly it’s not like he’s never looking for teammates.
The problem is that in Woody’s version of “ISO,” the players who don’t have the ball are given NO instructions one way or the other on what to do. The result is that most of them stand still 20 feet from the basket without moving. When they do move, it’s often to a place where they have no better a look at the basket than JJ does. What the hell good does it do if a player’s “movement” is to a spot 30 feet from the basket or where the passing lanes are covered? I wish I could get my hands on game-tape from last year, because I remember only a very small number of instances (and I mean less than 20) all year where JJ held onto the ball on an ISO play when a teammate had a clear path to the basket and he didn’t. There is almost NEVER meaningful movement on those ISO plays because the whole purpose of an ISO is to give the isolated player maximum room to operate.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again – I think people see Joe get doubled and think “oh, well if he’s doubled, someone must be open.” That church league mantra is wrong in general because often the open man is so far away or so poorly positioned that a pass is either too risky or useless, and it is complete and utter BS in the NBA, where a single player can cover an 8-foot passing lane just by stretching out his arms, and where defenders are so quick that a guy who appears open when the ball first is passed is often covered like Waffle House hashbrowns by the time the ball reaches his hands. Still, people seem to see JJ get doubled on an ISO play where he’s far from the basket and ASSUME that someone else must be open and in a better position to score. But in the NBA, that just isn’t the case.
niremetal
October 8th, 2009
6:43 pm
Enter your comments here
niremetal
October 8th, 2009
6:45 pm
*should be “less than 10,” not “less than 20.” Although I’ll grant that I only watched about 65 games and might have missed some in the ones I did watch, so “less than 20″ is probably closer to the true number.
Big Ray
October 8th, 2009
9:12 pm
I think we could use a third, fourth, fifth, (and heck a 100th opinion) on this.
I can think of a few times per game where Al Horford alone would get himself into a position to score, and not get the ball. Less than 20 times in a season? Sorry, but that is a bonafide joke. But hey, at least I’m laughing
….
niremetal
October 8th, 2009
9:16 pm
Ray,
Read what I said again – where JJ held onto the ball on an ISO play when a teammate had a clear path to the basket and he didn’t.
You took all of the limitations that I put in italics. Lot easier to laugh when you do that…
Sautee
October 8th, 2009
9:22 pm
nire,
How about the times Al wheeled into the lane, pinned his man, and was ignored by JJ until he had to get out of the lane? I watched this happen over and over. Ray and I would be on the phone, watching a game, and if we said it once, we said it DOZENS of times.
And you KNOW how I am about hyperbole.
niremetal
October 8th, 2009
9:33 pm
And I should have included one more thing – where it was feasible to make a pass to him. Doesn’t do much good if Al has a clear path to the basket but there is a defender standing directly in the passing lane.
Again, I think most people see JJ take a shot, see Horford standing close to the basket, and assume that JJ passed up an open teammate. But a lot of the time, the pass is too risky.
Take a look at the play at 0:56 in this video. I remember a number of times last year where there were situations similar to that (JJ on an ISO, Horford or Josh moving towards the basket) where JJ ended up not getting a clear look at the basket and missed the shot….and people immediately posted “WHY DIDN’T JJ PASS THE BALL TO JOSH/AL???” And I always fumed (often publicly) when I saw those posts because a pass there would likely result in a turnover.
So no, I really don’t think those numbers are a joke. Now I agree that there are MANY times where JJ should see that an ISO play won’t be effective and that he’s better resetting and either calling for a screen or passing the ball to a teammate just to make the defense move. I also saw a number of instances on pick-and-rolls where JJ shot an off-balance jumper instead of passing to a player off the screen who had a clear path to the basket. And I have said before that JJ needs to improve his decision-making off the pick and roll.
But I very, VERY rarely saw instances where a teammate had a clear passing lane and a clear path to the basket on an ISO and JJ didn’t see it. On those plays, players rarely moved. And sadly, the Hawks are one of very few teams in the league that runs ISO plays almost as much as they run the pick-and-roll.
niremetal
October 8th, 2009
9:37 pm
Link didn’t go through. I meant 2:56 of THIS video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMnY4xJTzJk
Again, I’m just talking about the ISO plays. I didn’t say off the screen-and-roll (which by definition involve another player in motion) or plays where there is better spacing between the other players (including Sautee’s post-up plays). I’m just talking about the ISOs. Because those plays are the ones that most obviously involve my pet peeve about the Hawks offense under Woody: Lack of movement.
niremetal
October 8th, 2009
9:45 pm
My point at the beginning of this is that I think the Hawks’ biggest offensive weakness is that they run the ISO play, which pretty much by definition involves no meaningful off-ball movement because that would reduce the amount of room that the isolated player has to operate.
And yes, I would say that JJ passed up incredibly easy assist opportunities at least once or twice per game on average, just like most All-Star playmakers in NBA history not named Magic or Stockton did and do. That’s almost a given when you’re the focal point of the offense. A bigger and more easily correctible problem, in my view, is the 5+ times per game that we call ISO Joe and end up with a wasted possession because Joe couldn’t work his open and his teammates didn’t move.
And with that, I hope our points of disagreement mostly vanish…
Sautee
October 8th, 2009
9:59 pm
“Doesn’t do much good if Al has a clear path to the basket but there is a defender standing directly in the passing lane.”
I have to laugh, nire. I mean except for a few truly bad teams, someone will ALWAYS be in the passing lanes. But you act like Joe has to stand still. As he moves, the ANGLES of the passing lanes change. His biggest fault, IMHO, is pounding the ball in one spot which plays into a defense already covering up passing lanes. As he MOVES, he makes the defense move, OPENING passing lanes that were NOT open if he stood still. I know that you didn’t mean that to be a simplistic as it sounded, but still, HAD to laugh.
By the way, I looked hard at the video (twice), and I can’t figure what your point was.
Big Ray
October 8th, 2009
10:10 pm
I agree. We call the ISO play too much. We both know who is responsible for that.
Sautee
October 8th, 2009
10:13 pm
nire,
“Well even if I agreed with that premise (which I don’t), what came first, the chicken or the egg? Even assuming JJ did ignore open teammates occassionally, might not the explanation be that you eventually stop looking for teammates to get open if no one moves to get open nearly enough?”
This was the point I was speaking to regarding Horford. Which dovetails with Ray’s point.
And it matters not which came first. He ignored open teammates repeatedly as you acknowledged. Not calling him selfish, but those are the facts.
That does NOT mean I want him gone. I want him to facilitate the growth of the front line. If he has the ball that much, then it’s on HIM to involve them.
Big Ray
October 8th, 2009
10:20 pm
Anybody who is calling JJ selfish is ignoring his assists, and doesn’t understand what they’re watching.
But that is NOT the same as saying that there is room for improvement in his decision-making as the primary ball-handler (let’s be honest, he still is). I think Al, Josh, (and to a lesser extent, Marvin) are at the point of where they can really help JJ and the team as a whole (read: become consistent enough threats to where JJ sees far fewer double teams and goes back to destroying the opposition).
Woody’s offense is what it is (we really don’t need to go there right now
). But teams are at their best not through play-calling, but through team chemistry. A coach can’t force that to happen. It only happens amongst the players.
niremetal
October 8th, 2009
10:45 pm
Sautee,
So, you think if Joe moved, the defender wouldn’t move too?
You’re right – the video is a bad example of the phenomenon I was trying to describe (people making posts yelling at JJ for not passing the ball to guys who weren’t really open). The only thing that’s relevant there is that the passing lane to Horford wasn’t open, and a pass to Horford at any moment during the 4-second sequence shown likely would have resulted in a turnover. But since JJ was closer to the basket than Al and wasn’t doubled, it’s a bad example.
So yeah, ignore the video. Heh…
niremetal
October 8th, 2009
10:46 pm
I’ll stop searching for an argument now – I just found out I passed the bar so I can that for a living