All-Star Weekend Ramblings
Hmm, where to start? Well, let’s stay true to the title and just ramble on. In no order of perceived importance:
-Miami Heat- During the lengthy, pre-season disagreements about where the Hawks would finish this year, the Heat were one of the teams I defended, in crafting an apparently inaccurate prediction for the Hawks (along with the Sixers and a couple of other underwhelming Eastern conference foes). There wasn’t much support for the idea that the Heat would rebound from last years’ worst NBA record, to a challenge for this years’ Hawks. But one of the primary points I made was that Riley never stands pat. So with the Heat a mere 3.5 games behind the Hawks, the Heat have acquired a big man that, if healthy, could make a tremendous impact the rest of the way (I know, big if). But the point is that the Heat knew they could not compete for the Eastern crown without the “potential” that O’Neal represents.
Ray makes a very interesting point when he says, “We’re not competing for a championship this year. Unless somebody can show me different, that is. If you’re going to go for a one-year, one-shot deal….it better be for a championship, not a 4th best seeding in the playoffs. But hey, that’s just MY opinion…”
Yet the Heat have seemingly found the soft spot in that argument. They’ve traded an expiring contract, for a potential difference maker, in O’Neal, without mortgaging their immediate future. Is Bibby not our Marion? Is it not clear that this Hawks team, as you point out, is no more than a fourth seed, left unimproved?
If you believe that this team will re-sign both Bibby and Marvin, and that this roster, unchanged, WILL compete for championships, in the next few years, then it’s reasonable that you believe the Hawks shouldn’t make a major deal. But if you don’t, where does that leave the Hawks, in YOUR (not just Ray, but anyone who feels that way) opinion?
In MY opinion, the Heat were a team we didn’t want to see in the playoffs, BEFORE this trade. Now, if O’Neal can stay healthy (I know, a big “if”, but Marion was leaving either way, so how much did they risk), and throwing the defensive value of Moon into the mix, I don’t think the Hawks, as they are currently constructed, want any part of the Heat come playoffs.
So, are we to be happy with this years’ Hawks, no matter how things turn out, with the assumption that this will be the best Hawks team in a decade, no matter what? Or do we look at the roster, project some tough choices that may have to be made this summer, and seek a move or two that optimize THIS years’ team, AND look towards the coming years as well? I guess I’m saying that Ray’s points seemed to suggest an either/or scenario. I think the Heat’s move highlights that you can take a shot at maximizing this years’ team, while still planning for the future (or at least not mortgaging the next few years).
The truth is that Bibby is unrestricted, and Marvin is restricted, this summer (Zaza is unrestricted, as well, a point that seems to be flying under the radar). And JJ has one more year after this one, with no literal control over what he will do. Folks around here spend 90% of their time discussing who the Hawks should keep, long-term, but the 10% spent considering whether all of these players INTEND to stay here is likely inadequate, relative to the question.
So, to counter what I think was Ray’s position, I don’t believe a serious effort to make this years’ Hawks team a legitimate contender for the Eastern crown has to come at the cost of future potential. And I think the Heat’s trade underscores that opinion. It’s not likely that the Hawks can make a trade that thrusts them into the mix of the Eastern elite. But I guarantee you that neither the Celtics, Cavs or Magic want to take on the Heat, come playoff time, if Wade, O’Neal, Beasley (who will now blow up with the exodus of Marion, who plays the same position as the rook), and the versatile Moon, are all healthy in April.
With one week left before the trade deadline, my stubborn position that the Hawks would be financially compelled to move Bibby is down to the wire. If they don’t, then I will be left to scratch my head (and chow down on some crow). I can only assume that the organizations’ commitment to pay out the full, projected $68 million payroll, despite some well-reported information that points towards even greater losses this season, and with the upcoming resolution of the Belkin buy out, is part of an overall end-game that will all make sense in the future.
The truth is we’re the 4th seed, with 3 legitimate threats to that slot: Philly, Miami and Detroit. Based on injuries and ineptitude, there doesn’t appear to be any remaining Eastern teams that can expect to make a run on us, or the other three. So it’s hard to imagine anything worse than a 7-seed. That’s a great season for a team that has floundered for over a decade. And if that’s enough for you, or the organization, for THIS season, it’s hard to argue with your position. But Ray previously mentioned a high-flying Bulls team, which came crashing to earth, in a mere year.
And while I have been largely absent from the never-ending Woody assessments, you can’t have this discussion, without articulating how much his coaching has, and will for the remainder of his tenure, has either optimized, or limited, the fortunes of this Atlanta Hawks team.
I’ll end with the opinion that there are a handful of plausible, deadline trades that could not only improve the possibilities of this years team, but strengthen the franchise for the coming years. And most of those deals would likely include Bibby, who’s massive and expiring contract, combined with my belief that he’ll never play better than he has this year, make him the obvious chip to make both a run at maximizing this season, while solidifying the structure of the coming versions of the Atlanta Hawks.
I had a lot of other things I wanted to discuss, but I’m over a thousand words, and most of you know that I’m all about being concise and succinct……..
Be sweet to your girls this weekend!
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101 comments Add your comment
richbrave
February 13th, 2009
10:59 pm
HB:
Certainly mean’t no disrespect in my solitary shout out to RAY. So here’s one for you. A Valentine sent with love and kisses big guy.
Waitin’ to see if the HAWKS dump contracts by the deadline. You’re nothing if not consistant. Your arguments regarding re-signing WILLIAMS and moving BIBBY always made sense to me. So I’ll bring two forks to that pie-eating contest. Where are those crows anyway?
Big Ray
February 13th, 2009
11:02 pm
I’ll take a stab in the dark and assume there are no comments here yet because everyone is watching the Rookie/Sophomore game and trying to figure out how the rooks (and all those wonderful 7-footers) lost the lead and are now behind the Sophs by half a dozen….
Big Ray
February 13th, 2009
11:09 pm
RichBrave!
Caught your halloa on the last blog, tried to reply, and it caught somewhere in cyberspace. Well, at least that’s my story, and I’m sticking to it
.
Ando,
Great post. One can only wonder if management will sit on their hands or pull a trigger on something. As for head scratching, that’s to be expected when trying to figure out anything that’s going on in the owner’s box…By the way, “Riley never stands pat” gets my nomination for “Pun of the Year.”
It’s a close one in the rookie/sophomore game. Sophs are gonna pull it out. So much for MannyT’s rookie 7-footers….heh heh heh.
HB Ando
February 13th, 2009
11:13 pm
Watching Beasley and Durant. Like I said above, with Marion cleared out, watch Beasley explode from here on out. Durant is just sick.
I’ll reiterate what I said about a week ago, regarding Marvin: he’s solid, but he’ll never be anything close to the forward that Chris Paul is as a point guard. And as far as the drafting strategy I mentioned last week, a guy should be a dominant 3-4, at the college level, to go in front of a top point or center. Durant and Beasley stepped into the NCAA and exploded, as true freshman. There wasn’t any doubt, at least in my mind, that both of them would be impact players in the NBA. At the end of the day, Marvin was taken second for the same reason that Darko was taken second: potential and projected upside.
While a 20-year old Durant is quickly becoming one of the most dominant scorers in the league, 22-year old Marvin is still falling well short of replicating the production of the player he was drafted to replace, Al Harrington.
For those of you who read Bill Simmons’ annual “trade value rankings” was I the only one who noticed that the 2 primary players Billy Knight egregiously ignored, Brandon Roy and Chris Paul, were ranked the 9th and 3rd most untradeable players in the NBA? For Shelden and Marvin….
Yeah, I know, let it go….
I can’t……
HB Ando
February 13th, 2009
11:17 pm
Ray, my Riley line is kind of like that Kenny Mayne-Pat Summitt commercial, LOL.
HB Ando
February 13th, 2009
11:20 pm
Rich, thanks for making me feel better about myself. I may well turn out to be nothing if not redundant. I also may turn out to be nothing if not dead wrong. What are ‘ya gonna do?
Watching Durant and Beasley, I can’t help but think about the quote I’ve heard attributed to ‘Nique, regarding the pre-draft Marvin: “He’s a once in ten years kind of talent”.
Guess nobody told Marvin…………
Big Ray
February 13th, 2009
11:21 pm
I wonder if the Heat are actually done dealing? They may not be. You know how Riley is…
HB Ando
February 13th, 2009
11:26 pm
I wonder more if Colangelo is going to turn around and package Marion. I’m not sure how much value he gets out of the cap space of an expiring contract in Toronto….
Big Ray
February 13th, 2009
11:29 pm
Ando,
The Blog Crimes Unit recovered the real tape of that conversation. Apparently ‘Nique really said this:
“This is a pick that only comes around every once in ten years. Only once in ten years do we see a GM skip over the best player in the draft for a guy who didn’t even start for the team he only played one year for.”
Unfortunately, ‘Nique forgot about other notable GMs and their picks, such as Dumars and Paxson. Of course, even blind squirrels find nuts. But even those two never passed over transcendant lead guards. Paxson was smart enough to get Rose, and Dumars was smart enough to get Stuckey. Sigh….
HB Ando
February 13th, 2009
11:33 pm
Thanks for clarifying, big fella. ‘Nique CAN require interpretation……..
Ariose
February 14th, 2009
1:02 am
Just throw acie under the bus ray…..Stucky is’t a great shooter, neither is CP3or Deron, they’d all be riding pine.
You guys have got to let this hindsight crap go. I like marvin’s game. He’s rebounding well and he’s finally growing into his body and becoming coordinated on the court(It took Nique’ a while too).
I know Marvin is coming back unless Granger is avilable he’s coming back. If marvin was a PG he’d be riding the bench so let’s all be grateful that he’s not.
cp
February 14th, 2009
1:43 am
I doubt we make any moves but if we do I would call the Kings up and see if I could get Garcia and Moore. I would easily take Garcia over Evans. Garcia is a better defender, can handle the rock, and can hit the j. His only question mark is his health. If he is healthy I would love to have him on this team. Moore would give us some shot blocking and rebounding. Who would we have to give up to get them I have no idea but probably expiring contracts seeing how they are losing a lot of money. It would probably be something like Evans and Pachulia for Moore and Garcia. I have to go check the salaries and more than likely they wont match but this is just one scenario I have been thinking about.
richbrave
February 14th, 2009
10:18 am
HB:
Right or wrong it is a rightous take. Money for the ASG is a concern unless they have a revenue stream undisclosed in clandestine venues.
Stinky
February 14th, 2009
11:09 am
Are yall seriously considering trading Bibby? We saw what happened when he’s not out there (20 point blowout at home to the Clippers). If we want to advance in the East Bibby has to be here. If we’re gonna make a trade, how about trying to get a Chris Wilcox or Joe Smith type of player for ZaZa or Marvin Williams & a 2nd rounder for Caron Butler. Are those trades viable? I think Bibby has to be considered untouchable this season based on our record & his play.
doc
February 14th, 2009
11:22 am
nice stuff ando. as far as collapses only look to the raps and the wiz to know there is no assurance for next year or the year after. i will take it as it comes. one and done may be it and the BASG will have to take the criticism along with my boy rick. that will come. cudos if they are able to make the grade to have a true power house and savvy to continue it. i am not a betting man but wouldnt bet on it. i am not going to let the future mess up enjoying the moment. hear you both though and have argued along similar lines. will pick up the argument in the off season.
in the mean time roses are on the way to my girls as we speak. taking care of all the girls in my life and suggest all do the same. the slam contest is not worth it. heh heh
James Banks
February 14th, 2009
11:48 am
HB Ando,
Coaching does matter! Do you honestly believe that the Hawks coaching staff has “developed” any of its young players?
You continue to give BK a lot of heat for drafting Marvin Williams and Shelden Williams. Coaching does matter-don’t you think B. Scott and J.Sloan are better head coaches that Woodson? Both Paul and D. Williams get more shot attempts per game than Marvin (at worst, Paul and D. Williams are the #2 scoring option for their respective teams while Marvin is the Hawks’ 4th option). Don’t you think that Marvin’s numbers would be comparable to Paul or D. Williams if he had the same amount of shot attempts. Marvin may have been drafted to replace Al Harrington but has never come close to Harrington’s shots per game average. How can you expect him to put up 20pts a game if he is the team’s 4th scoring option. Mye biggest knock against Marvin is that he is too unselfish.
Everyone knew the Hawks needed a center and would take a center in the 2006 draft. I think we can all agree that Coach K is a great coach and that Shelden Williams was an All-American for him. Take a look at the centers available when the Hawks picked at #5 and tell me who should they have drafted? Patrick O’Bryant, Mohammed Sene, Hilton Armstrong and Josh Boone were the other centers available that were drafted in the first round that year (none of them are playing a significant role for their team)and tell me who they should have drafted ? And please don’t say they should have drafted Brandon Roy because you know that you would have demanded his immediate dismissal for drafting another swingman with Joe Johnson, Josh Childress, Josh Smith and M. Williams already on the roster.
BK’s job was to obtain the talent and I think he did it well. No, he wasn’t perfect (signing Claxton turned out to be a terrible idea) but look back at his draft choices: Boris Diaw, Royal Ivey, Childress, Smith, M. Williams, Salim Stoudemire, S. Williams, Solomon Jones, Al Horford and Acie Law and all are playing in the league except Stoudemire and Childress (who should be and will be again). The coaches job is to mold, shape and improve the obtained talent. Again, does anyone truly believe the Hawks coaching staff has improved the team’s talent. Coaching does matter.
Right now, the Hawks are no better than a number four seed. I think we all agree that Horford is a warrior but he really needs to be moved to the PF position. Trading Bibby will not get you the big man and the PG (to replace Bibby)you need to compete for a championship this year nor will it produce a salary reduction for a team that is bleeding red ink. So let’s look to the future. I proposed this idea in Sekou’s blog and would love your opinion on this. Trade Joe Johnson and Maurice Evans to Memphis for O.J. Mayo, Darko Milicic and Mario Jaric, Release Bibby, Pachulia, Hunter, Gardner and the rights to Childress. Re-sign Jones, Murray, West and Williams, sign Channing Frye and Melvin Ely as free agents and trade your first round draft choice for cash considerations. You’ll go into the 2009-10 season saving about $15 million in salaries and have Mayo, Williams, Smith, Horford and Frye as starters with Law, Murray, Jaric, Milicic and Ely as a second team with Morris, Jones, West and Claxton filling out the roster with Claxton’s expiring contact becoming a valuable trading chip.
St. Bernard
February 14th, 2009
12:11 pm
We wasted how many picks during the BK years?! WOW! I think Bibby should be dealt if there’s a real profit to us, but it has to be a profit. I’ll deal Williams as well if we can maximize the trade. How about the rights to Childress? Is that worth anything?
IF Woodson won’t play young guys and he’s going to stay here, then don’t bother bringing in the Acie type players!
Sautee
February 14th, 2009
1:03 pm
James Banks
While I’m intrigued by your trade proposal, and I like the “out of the box” thinking it shows, I doubt seriously that the Grizz, after giving up Kevin Love AND Mike Miller to get Mayo, would let him go. My guess is that you can count on Mayo being there at least til the end of his rookie contract.
MannyT
February 14th, 2009
3:15 pm
Instead of looking for the championship or bust bus this season, accept the fun of the improvement. The Hawks have not done this well since the 1990s. If they continue on this route (around 50 wins) and get into the 2nd round of the playoffs, they will have had a great season.
During the offseason, it will be time for your boy Rick to earn his keep. Whatever the team looks like in November, these are factual building blocks for the near future.
Expiring contracts total about $20 Mil (Bibby, Zaza, Solo)
We have two draft picks
Marvin is a restricted free agent
We still have Chills NBA rights
Josh will no longer be a BYC player for trade purposes once we get to July.
These facts allow us to have several options for remaking the team without going through a complete talent purge like BK had to do when he took over.
Ding!
ANDO, you skipped the part where 3 of the guys that BK did bring to this team are on that top 40 list (JJ, Josh & Al). Sure he blew it with Shelden. I’ll even let you have fun with Marvin on the potential versus performance argument. I’ll still take BKs performance as average during his tenure when compared to his peers. When compared to the guy he replaced, he was far superior.
If you have facts to dispute that, bring ‘em. Your dislike of the dude doesn’t change the players. In fact, BKs 2nd biggest mistake after Shelden was Woody. He tried to correct it, but that didn’t work out too well.
As pointed out previously by several including YOU, this ASG isn’t likely to take on additional financial obligations in the short term. We will not dip into luxury tax range with the ownership in flux and hemorrhaging cash. Given NBA trade rules, is a 30 year old Bibby going to get you a cheaper, useful center…probably not. Trade rules and trade trends work against it.
Your best chance for a trade that doesn’t totally screw up the current run is to get a functional but worse PG and a mediocre center that is a little better than Zaza. Because the team that best fits that deal is competing with the Hawks for a playoff spot (Pacers) I doubt they will do any deal to help us…especially since they fixed their PG issues when they picked up TJ Ford & Jarred Jack.
Base Year Compensation rules value Josh’s contract at half its actual value for trade purposes until July. Thus I don’t see big money moves to get better and decrease salary and bring a center here.
If you really like the old days so much, start your bring back Babcock campaign. Let me know when to bring my camera to see you and your sign at Philips for that one
In the spirit of PTI end of round, I win
My hoops focus will be on JJ and his attempt to handle the young bucks in tonight’s HORSE competition. I am also interested to see how Bibby does in the 3 pt shootout.
BWAF
MannyT
February 14th, 2009
3:20 pm
Instead of looking for the championship or bust bus this season, accept the fun of the improvement. The Hawks have not done this well since the 1990s. If they continue on this route (around 50 wins) and get into the 2nd round of the playoffs, they will have had a great season.
During the offseason, it will be time for your boy Rick to earn his keep. Whatever the team looks like in November, these are factual building blocks for the near future.
Expiring contracts total about $20 Mil (Bibby, Zaza, Solo)
We have two draft picks
Marvin is a restricted free agent
We still have Chills NBA rights
Josh will no longer be a BYC player for trade purposes once we get to July.
These facts allow us to have several options for remaking the team without going through a complete talent purge like BK had to do when he took over.
Ding!
ANDO, you skipped the part where 3 of the guys that BK did bring to this team are on that top 40 list (JJ, Josh & Al). Sure he blew it with Shelden. I’ll even let you have fun with Marvin on the potential versus performance argument. I’ll still take BKs performance as average during his tenure when compared to his peers. When compared to the guy he replaced, he was far superior.
If you have facts to dispute that, bring ‘em. Your dislike of the dude doesn’t change the players. In fact, BKs 2nd biggest mistake after Shelden was Woody. He tried to correct it, but that didn’t work out too well.
As pointed out previously by several including YOU, this ASG isn’t likely to take on additional financial obligations in the short term. Given NBA trade rules, is a 30 year old Bibby going to get you a cheaper, useful center…probably not. Trade rules and trade trends work against it.
Your best chance for a trade that doesn’t totally screw up the current run is to get a functional but worse PG and a mediocre center that is a little better than Zaza. Because the team that best fits that deal is competing with the Hawks for a playoff spot (Pacers) I doubt they will do any deal to help us…especially since they fixed their PG issues when they picked up TJ Ford & Jarred Jack.
Base Year Compensation rules value Josh’s contract at half its actual value for trade purposes until July. Thus I don’t see big money moves to get better and decrease salary and bring a center here.
If you really like the old days so much, start your bring back Babcock campaign. Let me know when to bring my camera to see you and your sign at Philips for that one
In the spirit of PTI end of round, I win!
My hoops focus will be on JJ and his attempt to handle the young bucks in tonight’s HORSE competition. I am also interested to see how Bibby does in the 3 pt shootout.
BWAF
O'brien
February 14th, 2009
3:23 pm
If I’m not mistaken, Woody said that the goal of this team is to host a playoff series, so I dont think the Hawks are thinking championship this year. The best we can hope for is a first round victory (if we have home court).
I hope Bibby has a great playoff showing, but if he does, it will be hard for the Hawks to resign him at the price he is looking for, and then what do we do for a PG next year?
If we are not going to make a move, I think we should offer a Bibby an extension before the seaon is up.
Ariose
February 14th, 2009
4:38 pm
Bibby has been good for more than just his deft shooting touch this season. He’s also helped the Hawks take care of the ball as well as just about any team in the league. Atlanta’s 13.0 turnovers per game ranks seventh in the league. And Bibby’s 3.09 assist/turnover ratio ranks eighth in the league…..
Najeh Davenpoop
February 14th, 2009
4:49 pm
Ando, I agree that the Hawks are not an Eastern Conference title contender right now, but I am not nearly as worried about playing Miami or Detroit in the first round as you seem to be. I don’t think the Hawks are going to lose a first-round series with home court advantage to any of those teams. I can see the benefit to trading Bibby, but do you have any specific ideas in mind as to what the Hawks could realistically receive in return that would improve the team to near Orlando’s level?
blast
February 14th, 2009
6:44 pm
I think it was Ariose who said this on an earlier post. Baby Steps. You must first learn to crawl, then stand, then walk. For years the Hawks have been crawling, last season they stood up a little, this year they are finally walking. Next they have to run. Baby Steps. Even after last year’s playoffs, none of us expected the Hawks to be 31-21 halfway through. I have said for long the Hawks cannot win a championship this year. A 2nd round playoff series will be good enough for me. To get to that next level, they have to tinker with the lineup.
I know Bibby’s expiring contract is like a beacon of gold to some folks here. Bibby is not going anywhere this season. The Hawks will be stupid to trade him now. They need to offer him an extension before the season ends. If they won’t play Acie, they need to package him in a deal. If the Hawks can land a decent enough, tough center, then they will have a more balanced team. I really think Mike Bibby will want to remain with the Hawks if they treat him right. When was the last time he was able to participate in the All Stars in his own hometown in front of all his friends and family? And with what team? He says he loves his teammates and they are his family away from home. Mike is having a ball, man! Playing with the Hawks!
Go Hawks!
PD
February 14th, 2009
7:45 pm
The Hawks should trade Marvin, Speedy and Zaza to the Suns for Amar’e.
The contracts matchup and you get the points and rebounding from Amare to make up for for both Zaza and Marv.
The Suns would have to make Speedy retire.
Big Ray
February 14th, 2009
9:10 pm
Ariose,
I’m not throwing Acie under the bus. You have to know me better than that, considering how much I’ve lobbied for him to get more PT. Stuckey might indeed be a bench sitter here. That’s the difference between Dumars and his bosses, versus Knight/Sund and the ASG.
Dumars knows how to judge whether or not a coach can take the team to the next level or not, and was not afraid to make a change (which he did) if he thought it necessary. Ownership supported his decisions.
Knight on the other hand, tried to make the change (perhaps a bit too late), and was rebuffed by ownership. Meanwhile, Sund has not tried to, as he must give Woody time, so that he can properly judge him.
You can call Stuckey a guy who doesn’t shoot all that well, but at least he was given the playing time to prove himself. He proved himself well enough, as Dumars was willing to let Billups go. Stuckey is a Wade-type of player, if not quite as developed or talented. I think Acie could match his numbers if he got the same amount of minutes (and no, that won’t happen while Bibby is here).
Either way, Stuckey is a lead guard, averaging roughly 14ppg/5apg/3.5rpg. He’s a good pick, a favorite of the GM, who will make sure that Curry starts and plays him. But that’s how things are run in Detroit.
Big Ray
February 14th, 2009
9:14 pm
PD,
Nice thought, but it probably won’t happen. Then again, you just never know. Nahhhhh…:)
Najeh,
If you would be so kind, could you please re-post that trade idea that Bill Simmons came up with?
Big Ray
February 14th, 2009
9:25 pm
Bibby untouchable? Again, is this guy going to lead us to the NBA Finals? How about the Conference Finals? Yes? No?
Let me put it another way for those who are so caught up in the “now” and care nothing for the future at all. There’s a wonderful quandry waiting for you. It’s like this: the better Bibby plays, the harder he will be to re-sign after the season is over, as he will command more money and have plenty of suitors.
That’s right. You can’t tell me how wonderful he is, then automatically assume that he will get no offers from other teams, and that he just wants to play in Atlanta the rest of his career, for whatever the Hawks can afford to pay him. Heh. As IF…sorry, but no having it both ways.
And here’s the best/worst part, depending on how you view things. When the season is over, and if dude walks….you end up with three guys staring at you: one is an off-the-bench offensive spark plug who doesn’t make his teammates better on either end of the floor, another gets a disjointed 9 minutes per game, and the last one will probably never suit up and play a single NBA game ever again. Feel comfy with that?
But hey. We’re going to maybe get the 4th seed in the playoffs for this one year. Life in the NBA couldn’t POSSIBLY get any better. Who cares what happens after that?
Ariose
February 14th, 2009
11:53 pm
Ray, I was just joking lol. I knew what you meant
Najeh Davenpoop
February 15th, 2009
2:17 am
I believe Bill Simmons’ trade proposal was Caron Butler, Juan Dixon, and Darius Songaila for Marvin Williams, Acie Law, Speedy Claxton, and a future first-rounder.
The only obstacles I see with that trade are that a) Speedy’s contract is covered by insurance as long as he’s a Hawk which benefits the DASG, as Astro Joe pointed out, and b) the Hawks may be reluctant to trade Marvin within the division and risk that he becomes a star (I’ve always thought that’s a stupid reason, but teams do take that into consideration).
Big Ray
February 15th, 2009
4:57 pm
Najeh,
Thanks for the refresher. Other than what you mentioned as obstacles, I don’t see much wrong with it. I would LOVE to have Butler. He makes that deal for me all by himself. Already all-star level, he’s a very tough defender who will make things easier on Joe (the guy can guard opposing 2s). He’s a very certain 2nd threat on offense, and knows how to play with other 20+ppg scorers. Dixon is a good vet to have coming off the bench. Songaila is a hustler that’s crafty around the basket.
I understand to a point, the idea of not trading a guy within the division on account of him becoming a star. Well, here’s the rub. If you’re so sure that he CAN become a star, then how about putting him in position to be that star on your OWN team? What a concept….
Interesting.
So Kerr will fire a guy that he picked. A guy who was part of a **winning record**. In his first year, no less. Heh, heh, heh.
I guess you have to lose 4 years in a row in order to be untouchable…
The Suns reek of desperation. Make a splendid mess, then try to clean it up twice as fast as you made it. That’s the GM way. At least Kerr is allowed to try and fix his horrendous mistakes. Knight wasn’t allowed such leeway in that one key area. Nor will Sund be, I suspect, unless he has a silver tongue.
Then again, you’ll never have much to fix if you don’t do much in the first place. Heh.
richbrave
February 15th, 2009
8:45 pm
Everybody wants BUTLER, but he has a clause allowing trades with his say-so only. He would have to want to come to ATLANTA. JUAN’s is an expiring deal and the WIZARDS’ only wiggle room for the #1 pick in the draft. SONGAILA’s expires in 2010. Thw WIZ have J-CRIT, and he is the anointed successor to ARENAS. They don’t need LAW or CLAXTON. What would they do with another #1 pick? They don’t have cap room to sign the one coming up now. BUTLER has one of the least egregious contracts financially on the LIZARDS right now. Why take on MARVIN’s deal even if they could? “Duck” doesn’t fit well into D.C.’s system – that is, assuming there is one when the new coach arrives. GRUNFELD wants long-lean players with quickness and speed. This deal doesn’t make sense at all for the WIZARDS.
richbrave
February 15th, 2009
9:15 pm
HB:
WIZARDS have a contractual $75,906,000 on the books for 2009-2010. Taking on WILLIAMS, LAW and CLAXTON would ADD another 470,000 to the total. And they’ve got a high,HIGH draft pick coming up. Unless they can restructure some deals, they won’t even be able to sign their 1st round pick for 2009. What’s the cap limit for next season?
richbrave
February 15th, 2009
9:20 pm
SONGAILA is up in 2009-2010 with a player option for 2010-2011 just south of 5 MILL.
HB Ando
February 15th, 2009
10:02 pm
RB, I’ve not really given any thought to this Butler chatter. He’s a great player, but the Hawks pressing need is a center. The cap for next year has not been determined. But I just read an article, quoting Stern, that suggested that the cap might actually GO DOWN, placing many teams that are currently on this years’ luxury tax bubble actually over it next season unless they reduce payroll. The implications of such a possibility mind-boggling. It would force almost every team in the league to re-evaluate their payroll planning. It would certainly suggest that on top of every other consideration that the ASG is dealing with (operating losses, the Belkin buy out, etc.) if the intent is to re-sign both Bibby and Marvin (which I continue to find unlikely), then it will be even harder to accomplish such a plan.
Trade deadline is Thursday. Like everyone else, I’m anxious to see if the Hawks are going to make any moves, as the nature of any deal they might make would likely say a lot about both the finances and the direction of the franchise.
Melvin
February 15th, 2009
10:14 pm
Forget his playing ability. The Hawks could have use Chris Paul for his off the court showmen ship… I know, I know Ando but I just realize how big of a MISSED this was for the Hawks… Man, the exposure this franchise could of had with that fella… Can’t imagine the ASG losing $174 mil had they drafted Chris Paul… Sorry fellas I hate to bring up the past but like I said his off the court impact just hit me….
HB Ando
February 15th, 2009
10:16 pm
Hmm, more undermining reports about the ASG’s financial health. I assume most of you have seen Steve Hummer’s article about the Thrashers today. He highlights that the Thrashers are 29th out of 30 in attendance, and restates the annual losses of the ownership group, since 2004, at an average of $24 million/year. I just can’t find any math, based on what little I know about the partners of the ASG, that suggests that they can absorb these types of losses AND be faced with an upcoming buyout of Steve Belkin for what could be a devastating amount.
It is exactly these financial reports that generated my belief, since the beginning of the summer, that the ASG could not afford a $68 million payroll, and that moving Bibby’s expiring, $15 million salary, was one of the most obvious ways to minimize losses. I still don’t know how they’re hanging in there, in this economy, with flat ticket sales. Obviously, the Hawks are a better team for having Bibby in uniform this season. But I just don’t understand how they’re pulling it off.
Guess we’ll have a clearer picture if Thursday’s deadline comes and goes with no reduction in this years’ payroll. If it does, Hawks fans can certainly rest easy that the best local product in over a decade will remain intact, if unimproved, for the remainder of the season.
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m kind of anxious to see how this will play out later this week.
HB Ando
February 15th, 2009
10:23 pm
Melvin, you said it………
Melvin
February 15th, 2009
10:52 pm
Hmmmm, Doug Collins just said the owner (or GM) of the Suns said this weekend that they made of mistake by not signing Joe Johnson. Let’s see the Suns got Diaw and 2 1st round picks from the Hawks. So that’s 3 1st round talents they received in return from the Hawks and they still say they was on the losing end of that deal… Oh my, maybe Billy did get that one right…
Don!
February 15th, 2009
11:35 pm
Random thoughts — and most of the good points have already been made.
1. Until the ownership situation is settled, none of this really matters.
2. We need a center. We likely have an overage at the 2-3-4, which will take care if itself in the off season.
3. We need to decide now what we’re going to do with Acie. There are GMs in this league who like his potential (still), but everyone agrees that he doesn’t mesh with Woody’s style and desire to play in a tight 8-man rotation.
4. Bibby is the key to the off season. If we keep him, how much will it cost? If you had to make a choice between keeping him and Marvin on a four-year contract — would you be willing to mortgage the team’s future on that decision?
5. Are you content to be (at best) the fourth best team in the East? Because that looks to be the ceiling with this group. Let’s be honest, this is a good team — but something big would have to happen for them to be great. Boston got KG, and Pau was gifted to LA. Cleveland won LeBron in the lottery, and Orlando got Dwight. The Spurs are still the Spurs, and let’s just not mention CP3, okay? I love Joe Johnson, and he’s worth every cent (and every player) we’ve invested in him — but he can’t carry this team to a championship alone, and this supporting cast is just missing something.
5. The core of this team for the next three years is Big Al and Josh — and they really share the same position. That’s not a recipe for success — and there’s no way you would want to trade either.
6. Something has to give. We’re at the same spot the Bulls were two years ago … almost good enough to compete — but not quite there. The Bulls tried to make the moves to become contenders, and blew it. How can we learn from their mistakes?
7. Last one, I promise. Where can the Hawks turn to find one more quality player — a difference maker — to get them over the hump, without mortgaging the future? We could either get lucky in the draft, either an underrated big man from college, or by maybe signing an overseas player who wants to make the jump over here. I think bigs are the most likely to be undervalued overseas right now. Of course, the other option is to take on someone else’s problem — think about someone like Eddy Curry — and pray.
Anyway, I think we can make the moves to bring a trophy here to Atlanta in the next couple of years — but I’m not sure if the group on the court, and definitely not the ones off the court are the ones to make it happen.
Later,
Don!
doc
February 16th, 2009
12:04 am
stuckey doesnt shoot well? uuumm about 46%. what do you guys want? if you say it is because he gets to the basket for lay ups then i say what is wrong with that?
so, finally some sense on how the suns have imploded since they got rid of jj for essentially nothing to show for it except maybe richardson and lopez. i dont think they got anything of value for rondo did they? yup, that was a smooth move for us an all star and horford to boot. say what we could have rondo? yup, sitting right next to speedy as a guard that cant shoot.
ando, the thrashers rank about the same in salary for the hockey team, problem is they depend on gate for the income in the nhl. they are also dead last for record the last ten years about where the hawks land i imagine. sad thing is their drafting has been far worse than bk could ever be accused of by even you. good thing you have no interest in hockey or you would be sort of a full fledged lunatic by now.
has anyone figured out the real payroll for the hawks since chills and speedy wont count for real dollars? about 40 mil for jj, smash and bibby then what? another 14 mil for the next top five players then what? those top three players represent the whole hockey team budget. i would estimate the true total salary about 62-64 mil and maybe less.
HB Ando
February 16th, 2009
12:20 am
Don, good points, all. This Acie thing has a couple of obvious, differing perspectives. Certainly, Woody isn’t interested in using him as long as Bibby is here. And if Woody isn’t interested in using him ever, something only the insiders in the organization can know, then using him as a trade asset makes good sense. But the flip side is that Acie is either insurance if we trade, or fail to re-sign Bibby. And there’s the additional perspective that Woody’s opinion of Acie is only as pertinent as long as he’s the head coach here. Both of those alternatives exist, though to what extent none of us fans can accurately gauge.
On points 1 and 2, you probably know my opinions well enough to know I agree.
As far as Curry, I simply don’t understand your, or anyone’s, ongoing fascination with a guy who clearly has no motivation to be a great player. He was blessed with the size and physical talent to be a perpetual all-star. He will never, ever, be a part of the annual celebration we watched on TNT tonight. I just don’t get how anyone can still believe he’s ever going to change his stripes. He’s a dog and he always will be. Any mention of guys like him, or Stromile Swift, befuddle me.
None of us can know how the organization is approaching the remainder of this year, or the planning/goals of the coming years. The Bulls ARE a cautionary tale of how quickly an apparently emerging team can fall flat, after one seeming break-out season.
To me, it’s pretty obvious that even if the Hawks keep this core together, re-signing Bibby and Marvin, they still don’t project to develop into a legitimate threat, in the next 3-4 years with the Eastern teams in front of them (though clearly much can change with those teams as well). There is the clear concern that they can’t afford to keep both. If you believe that, then you have to ask how they can keep both AND add the type of quality center they would seemingly need to challenge the folks above them. And if that combination, keeping Marvin and Bibby, and adding a ready-to-compete, legitimate center, is just not reasonable, then you have to question who is the odd man out.
Like I said, if they do nothing before Thursday’s deadline, then these points are moot until summer, when, hopefully, the legal issues with Belkin will be resolved. If that is the case, then we can all sit back and watch the remainder of the season, hanging with the “ones who brung us”. If they do make some kind of move, any kind of move, by the deadline, I can’t help but believe it will provide some clues as too the future plans of the franchise.
Wasn’t a classic all-star game tonight. But Shaq turned back the clock one last time, and that was pretty cool. Paul had another in what will likely be another decade of games that make Hawks’ fans like me continue to cry in our milk. Unfortunately, JJ turned into OJ for the night (as in 0-fer). Or, if you prefer, you could call him Do Johnson (as in doughnut). Either way, it wasn’t pretty. But given the way Woody rides the dude into the ground, you have to give him a pass for being out of gas, and be simply happy he survived the night without getting injured. I’m sure Woody will be ready to play him for about 44 minutes, first game back though……..
HB Ando
February 16th, 2009
12:22 am
doc, Hoopshype lists the full, current roster, and each of their individual salaries. The number equates to the $68 million they attribute to this years’ Hawks. I didn’t see anything that looked out of line. Let me know if you check and see something I missed.
richbrave
February 16th, 2009
8:44 am
HB:
I’ve been deluging the WIZARDS and WASHINGTON POST blogs with a blitz of postings to go after H. THABEET in this draft. Like you, I recognize the one and five positions to be the most important on an NBA team. I even advocate tampering as the CONNECTICUT center is still a junior. And of course, I get much flak from the best athlete advocates who say “GRIFFIN or ADRIEN” to which I say, “IF you get the chance to secure a franchise center you have to grab him” even when he’s not the best player available. And at 7′3″ 265 that’s what he is. I pointed out to the WIZARDS faithful how SHAQ destroyed the hapless LIZARDS not to mention ANDRAY BLATCHE’s knee whilst he is far past his prime. With someone to assist with his bulk, the WIZ could have won that game – and most others.
I see ZaZA’s and SOLO’s contracts are expiring(if the on-line data site I consulted for WIZ contract info is correct) and that there is only 40,000,000 committed for 2009-2010. You could take on the WIZ pick(a probable top three) and BUTLER at 7.8 million, but would have to give up something of equal value being either HORFORD or SMITH both of whom are signed for several seasons. But this almost certainly would give you the pick needed to get THABEET in the event he is available. In that case, you could move HORFORD or SMITH to #4 and have BUTLER at #2 or #3. This conjecture gets complicated and long-winded so I’ll stop now. I was just ruminating on the possibles of a VALID trade between ATLANTA and WASHINGTON. At this point, it too soon to say anyway.
Big Ray
February 16th, 2009
9:20 am
Heh. Doc still disagrees vehemently with Ando on the particulars of acquiring JJ from the Suns….
I wouldn’t be surprised if the trade deadline went right by with management sitting on its collective hands.
Here’s a thought (though my likeness will no doubt be burned in effigy for saying it): Bibby is still ultimately tradeable by the deadline. And without him, the Hawks could still make the playoffs. Why? Well, Bibby does make us a better team than we’ve been without him. But we’ve won 3 games already this season. Winning only 10 of the remaining 30 still gives us 41 wins and a .500 record, which will probably be good enough for a 7th or 8th seed, I’m guessing. And that’s assuming that we would only win 10 games without Bibby.
I wonder if that thought hadn’t occurred to management? Just a thought, not a wish or desire. Just a wild thought. I see the flamethrowers heating up in the not-so-distant distance…:)
doc
February 16th, 2009
10:35 am
yeah, ando and take the figure they give of sppedy and subtract it by the amount they get from insurance for speedy of 6 mil plus the one or two mil that they have to ultimately pay him and you get uh … 62 to 64 mil. i think that was my estimate before going to the site. so what is your point?
ray, not ando just anybody else as it continues to surface. i think most recently it was obrien, realist and a few more that want to rewrite history. wasnt it realist that took sekou on last week spouting off the virtues of the suns and how they were still our peers. funny he didnt respond to either me or sekou. as a greta detective once said …just the facts, mam. he also hasnt been heard from since the latest about their franchise. i havent changed my tune one bit and as it came down it pretty much has done tem in, that is sarver’s ego which i pointed to long before anyone else did. i would hate to be one of his minority partner’s npw.
doc
February 16th, 2009
10:54 am
i guess taking those figures into account ando it answers where we are without chills salary. adding the chills salary that they dont spend but fits into their “legal” cap space takes them to what about 74 mil? i think it means we are done making deals and any deal would have to come out cheaper for us in the long run as 75 is the high level mark tax purposes, correct? maybe resident expert manny t can add something to the info out there.
anyway, bottom line is i dont expect any salary added out right as we are pushing the upper limits unless basg wants to enter a new realm of fiscal spending. i doubt any trade for bibby would mean adding any long term salary so they are stuck playing this one out just as it is. no big cheap bodies to the rescue unless they trade chills and his salary to avoid spending over the limit is the way i see it. if they want to improve this team now, chills is the card they can play, not bibby it seems to me playing on the last thread you guys posted.
Melvin
February 16th, 2009
11:40 am
Not so fast on the Speedy contract. I think the Hawks only receive insurance payments if/when Speedy declares a medical retirement. Until that happens, Hawks are on the hook for payment of his contract…
doc
February 16th, 2009
11:57 am
melvin, it is a complex subject. the insurance package is done by the year or even partial years in some cases, i think. so at the end of the year if criteria are met then it pays off. it was difficult to get my boy rick to explain it at the town hall but i think that was the summation for speedy this year. that has also been the way it works on baseball most notably from the info on hampton through the years. it can even be for loss of partial services if it is an extended stint on i r in high risk contracts. for baseball there is a goal of avoiding long term contracts because insurers wont ante up for more than three years at a time and was part of the discussion this year for the long term deals on pitchers.
Melvin
February 16th, 2009
1:46 pm
And there you have it. Speedy will be a member of the Hawks for the 09-10 season… I must admit, after seeing Speedy up close at the Clips game. He’s sharp dresser…..
Big Ray
February 16th, 2009
4:52 pm
Doc,
Just an observation. I have neither the ego or the interest to join in your current clash.
You know what the deal is with “Realist”, or had you forgotten. Recall that he will not answer you if you have him pegged. And his agenda has not changed, as is obvious.
I have no love for Sarver, and don’t desire him in the ATL. But I’d rather have one egotistical majority owner than several egotistical guys who are constantly fighting. You watch, somebody will argue with even THAT point. I swear….
Nobody is rewriting history here, just observing it again. If you find it bothersome, do what you’re always suggesting that others do…scroll on bro’. That’s what I do, as it retains my interest no longer, though I fear it’s a burr stuck fast in YOUR saddle. Oh well.
Payroll. It is what it is. It will be what it will be. And these guys finally learned how to keep secrets, so we sit and wait while boasting amongst ourselves about what we see happening or not happening. Yep, all things are the same as they usually are…
MannyT
February 16th, 2009
5:43 pm
Lately, my posts have not made it through the technovoid. I’ll try to be very nice to both the censors and the gizmogeeks.
Don! let me wrap my difference maker thoughts (for offseason free agent acquisition) into a rolling conversation that several folks have had. A difference maker for the Hawks is probably not a big stat guy, but someone who makes the whole deal work better. In some ways, that’s what I would say Chills did for us. Not rehashing his departure and not suggesting that we try to get him back in a Hawks uniform, but I am saying that we need someone who does not command the ball on offense, but makes the team a lot better.
Earlier this year, Ray and I went back and forth on the whole +/- thing as a way to see the contributions. If you take that to a higher level, you get SHANE BATTIER!!!!!!!!! Why, check out this article. It is the best one I have read on a true glue guy. None of the tangibles, all of the intangibles.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
We won’t get Shane, but this is the type of player we need on the court to make us better without breaking the bank.
As for all of Ando’s money talk, I could say a lot, but it looks like the commish has a life preserver out for many of his teams.
http://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/article/61537
…and if you cannot find the sugar daddy to make all of your money issues go away, maybe the ownership splits into 2 separate groups after the deal is settled. One side gets the Hawks and most of Philips. The other side gets the Thrashers and a little of Philips. I don’t have details, but this would decrease the need for the sugar daddy/momma pockets to be as deep. If you cannot get a dime, find two folks with nickels and make it work.
BWAF
doc
February 16th, 2009
6:15 pm
no ray, it doesnt bother me in fact it humors me, like when realist and yes i know comes on and has to eat crow with each assertion. funny that is all it is. history is right now and i am still pleased to have jj on our side, even if he is lame right now. heh heh
Big Ray
February 16th, 2009
6:51 pm
Doc,
Pleased to have him too, and wish the jockey would cut him some slack. But like you, I fear a hard March comes for him.
Glad that you find humor in the goings on. Without it, we have only cursing or crying.
Ando,
I’m going back to night shift. Tomorrow. It’s on, baby. Cue the Mission Impossible music, as we have to go covert for some of the late night trash talk sessions.
HB Ando
February 16th, 2009
10:18 pm
doc, I don’t have the energy to go back through years of blog archives, but I’m a bit confused by your suggestion that you first highlighted the impact of Sarver’s ego. In fact, that was the gist of my initial, and ongoing, position that Sarver, unwilling to cross the luxury tax threshold, and too strong of ego to match a $70 million salary offer, for a fourth option, who publicly stated he didn’t want to be a member of the Suns, didn’t want Sarver’s money, and wanted to go to Atlanta, was absolutely NOT going to match the offer sheet Billy extended to JJ. As my unwavering position remains, there was no reason to give the Suns anything for JJ. Billy got bluffed, a point that was confirmed, years ago, in front of both myself and another prominent blog member, and season ticket holder, by one of the partners in the ASG.
It’s a tad ironic that you are accusing others of rewriting history when your supposed version of the facts ignores the ongoing evidence, as it relates to Sarver, that my steadfast position was on point from the moment Billy overpaid for JJ. Your seeming perspective is no less disingenuous than Sarver’s statements that letting JJ go was a mistake, when the truth is that he never would have gone into the luxury tax, and paid his fourth option $70 million, after that player publicly disrespected him.
It’s funny how folks like to grumble about my penchant for repeating myself, but none of them want to acknowledge that the only reason I’m forced to is to combat efforts to re-create either the history of events, or attempts to misrepresent the specific nature of my long-standing, and consistent, positions on those events.
The truth will set you free……..
Big Ray
February 16th, 2009
10:24 pm
hee hee hee hee hee….;)
doc
February 16th, 2009
10:35 pm
ando as my daughters say talk to the hand cause the face aint listening or if you want truth talk to colangio and he will set you free. back then i thought you seemed to think sarver was smart and cool and out thought the hawks. you know really pulled one over on us. in the long run he blew it as history shows in hindsight. i felt he had blown it then, er, not in hind sight and continued to say it against all odds as he made stupid after stupid move to cover his mistake. i said it with each and very move though it might irk you a bit even now. he was a tyrant and continues to be one. i knew what you thought of bk for sure. yes, you did call the paul thing right. heh heh
oh yeah, as a reminder, what sarevr now has to show for the jj trade is lopez and a guard on suspension named richardson for driving 90 mph in a 35 mph with a 3 year old in the car with him not in a child’s seat. keep talking my friend as i got the hand up. short sighted to save a few mil and it has cost him how many mil?
yup, you got the paul thing right.
MannyT
February 16th, 2009
10:46 pm
doc, Ando
The first guy that shows up at a game with a reasonable facsimile of Sting’s outfit wins the argument!
Free, free, set them free.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imcDIdkL5mY
Nothing like selective memories and fashion nostalgia.
BWAF
HB Ando
February 16th, 2009
10:46 pm
doc, you’re nuts, bro. My position on Sarver, as stated above, is and has been exactly as I just stated. He didn’t want to go into luxury tax land, and his ego was far too fragile to let JJ dismiss his interest in playing for the Suns. JJ asked Sarver, publicly, NOT to match the term sheet. Said he didn’t want to play for his team or his $70 million. Any suggestion by you, that diverges from that perspective, is simply inaccurate.
And what the Suns did with those assets is an apples-to-oranges comparison of what the Hawks COULD have done with them (though suggesting that Billy would have optimized the value of those assets would be a case of me conveniently ignoring just how badly Billy mishandled the assets HE DID keep).
And I notice that you, of equal convenience, stay well clear of the very serious reality that the only saving grace of the whole deal came when Billy failed so abysmally in his planned rebuilding time line that he was lined up to give the Suns the fourth overall pick in 2007. And it was only through the grace of divine intervention that we bumped up a slot and got Horford. So, speaking of revisionist history, how dismissive would you and others be, of the final cost of JJ, if that pick had ended up in the Suns hands? We wouldn’t be talking about Robin Lopez, that’s for sure.
But hey, whatever story makes you feel like a genius is OK with me, bro…..
HB Ando
February 16th, 2009
11:06 pm
Manny T, if I dress like Don Johnson, from vintage ‘Miami Vice’ days, do I win? You could could play Tubbs to my Crockett. We could ride around in your Ferrari and rule South Beach. Then we could take out the mad chemist, type cast as doc, and shut down his vast warehouse of designer drugs, saving the youth of South Florida, and settling a ‘not guilty by reason of criminal insanity’ verdict for doc, accepting that his being housed in a high-security psych facility was better than letting him walk the streets. And we could safely assume that we had set up future episodes when ‘doc’ inevitably escaped, and sought his vengeance on those who had interfered with his destiny.
doc
February 16th, 2009
11:08 pm
i thought we were talking about salary cap ando.
manny t, sting is my hero. two people i would trade places with .. tom seaver and sting.
since you chimed in ando and i wasnt baiting you but maybe ray was, heh heh. ando, it is not how you might think it might have come out, it is how it DID come out. get over it, we are in the 21st century and jj is on our team along with horford and richardson and lopez are on their team. the only way to evaluate it is how it turned out dude no matter how it did. i will take the former guys. yes paul is on the hornets and roy is on the blazers but those are different stories in and of themselves for different reasons. sometimes folks got it right, luck or not and sometimes not. you cant say it is all stupidity when it is wrong and all luck when it its right. you can but folks tend to see through it.
now, my batting avg of .500 in college consisting of two hits in four years was all luck and the double off the fence was true blind squirrel stuff. my success in the operating room wasnt and was conceived by hard work and many hours of hard work and anticipation. ando, i assure you, i do know the difference. maybe it is just luck that paul hasnt had an injury or roy has a coach that sees the potential and takes the development of that kid seriously and holds himself accountable for that kid getting it right and we look bad for it. was it luck and for whom? a woody type of player or not? bottom line, we got the drop on sarver even though it looked like it was a steal at the time, luck or not.
HB Ando
February 16th, 2009
11:20 pm
As someone else mentioned, and you acknowledged the limitation of your understanding, the current payroll implications, especially as they relate to recouping some of Speedy’s outlay, via insurance, are unclear. So don’t say the payroll is $62-63 million, based on insurance, and then admit you’re not clear of the exact parameters. Obviously, we’re talking about more than salary cap. Your counterpoints, as they relate to Sarver and JJ, have nothing to do with OUR payroll issues, so quit being so slippery.
Billy clearly didn’t intend to have the 4th overall pick in ‘07, when he agreed to give up the pick with top-3 protection. So casually dismissing what a catastrophic misstep that was, based on the luck that saved the Hawks from paying the piper evades the concerns that have, and continue to, swirl around the management of this franchise.
The idea that Paul and Roy are the product of optimal coaching environments, is nonsensical. Stars impose themselves on their sport, just like these two have done. Can you seriously suggest that two players, that a writer like Bill Simmons ranks as the 3rd and 9th most valuable trade assets in the NBA, are mere byproducts of their systems, and would have somehow failed to make the floor under Woody? What a bunch of hogwash…..
Blah blah blah…..I know you well enough to know YOU don’t even believe the BS you are offering up right now. You’re just being cantankerous and you (should) know it….
Big Ray
February 16th, 2009
11:27 pm
Oh no you don’t, Doc.
I did NOT start a single thing, on this blog OR Sekou’s. That was all YOU, my friend. I understand both points of view (His and yours), and I also understand PRECISELY why y’all are still arguing about it, and so do the two of you. Heh.
Big Ray
February 16th, 2009
11:30 pm
Ando,
Right you are. Transcendant players make their mark upon their sport. So Chris Paul wouldn’t be AS GOOD under Woody. So maybe he wouldn’t average 25 and 10. Would we sniff at 19 and 8, which is more than Bibby can put out in a contract year? I think not.
You and Doc are just TOO much.
doc
February 16th, 2009
11:41 pm
have we seen horford’s game grow and change? not yet. as far as bk expecting horford no, but no one expected speedy to stay injured any more than the braves expected hampton to go down for the length of his contract. that was one that looked great on paper coming in having a great pitcher whose salary was going to be paid by someone else, cool. just it didnt work out, bad luck or poor anticipation? tunes change as does luck. i imagine the suns folks that were trashing him and us in his first season here are really feeling pretty stupid now with sarver. and they dont come around much anymore.
yes, coaching can be huge as can systems and players around stars. paul has a coach that is good for him and can teach him something of value about playing guard. roy has a coach that is nurturing him well. again when guys turn out well it has to be something other than just the player and be something that is bigger than the individual. it may be why some guys mature late and bloom into stars ala the one two punch that was recently in detroit. no one was predicting what roy has done as there were many questions swirlling around him before the draft. paul had fewer questions and came into a perfect system for him with no one to have to share stardom with.i dont see their success within the framework for what is around them doesnt make them any less ando.
doc
February 16th, 2009
11:53 pm
back to pay roll, no ando i wasnt going to play or say i was an insurance underwriter expert. i was just what had been gleaned at the same event both of us attended as i understood it. so yes the figure of 62 to 64 mil has been in play all season if the i’s are dotted and t’s crossed for the insurance company. again my point, if we make a move, it is on chills dime not bibby’s nor speedy’s and they dont intend to pay out any more than where they are which in reality is well below the cap limit. this late in the season they have room to add someone without giving up a player which would be ideal and only add 2 mil to the pay roll officially.
ray, i guess i just repeated what you said on different terms as you were posting it. chicken!
doc
February 17th, 2009
12:05 am
would paul and jj co exist and have similar numbers? it seems that jj needs the ball in his hands more than we expected. when bibby came here i thought it would be good for his game because he could get to a spot and have a first rate point deliver it to him for spot ups. we thought it had been difficult for jj to score without a point. it seems that hasnt turned out and may have the ball even more. maybe the jj thing would have snuffed paul a bit as well having to share the ball which he doesnt in n. o. now.
HB Ando
February 17th, 2009
12:14 am
doc, I thought we were talking about the JJ acquistion, and Sarver. You said we were talking about salary cap. Now you seem to be talking about Woody, and his impact on Horford. Man, just pick a subject, and try to stay on it for at least one full exchange, so I don’t feel like I’m chasing shadows.
You say, “no one expected Speedy to stay injured”. What? In his five NBA season, prior to Billy signing him to a free agent contract (a few months after publicly stating in the AJC that, to paraphrase, “I don’t agree with the people who think we need a point guard”, and “I just think I know more than everyone else about basketball”), Speedy Claxton missed 120 of a possible 410 games, or just a hair under 30% of ALL his teams’ games.
Your statements about Roy are even more ironic, given that you have spent countless time, in our blog community, taking lead credit for pointing to him as your #1 prospect in that draft. And no one, NO ONE, save for Billy Knight (a point that was highlighted in a DraftExpress.com article, right after the draft) saw Shelden as a #5 pick. So passing on Roy was, from just about any angle, unforgiveable. Portland is widely regarded as a team of young talent, that has developed surprisingly fast. Roy has risen, on his own, to establish himself as the leader of that team.
This idea that guys like Paul and Roy would have disappeared under the guidance of Woody is nonsense. Johnson blossomed under him. So has Josh Smith, who came in drafted AFTER Childress, behind Harrington, and watching the Hawks, a year later, draft yet another player at his position, Marvin Williams. So if Woody is the killer of young players, how do you explain Smith’s emergence? It seems rather convenient to assume that guys like Paul and Roy would have failed to match their success, if they had ended up in Atlanta.
You seem to be all over the place, shifting, sliding, shadow-esque. The one thing consistent in your recent points seems to taking credit for many previous predictions, and dismissing the previous opinions of others. It might be easier if, while you’re patting yourself on the back for your unfathomable genius, you stick to a couple of specific points, for conversations’ sake, so that a logical discussion, towards a plausible conclusion, can actually take place.
If only I could get Waffle House to scatter my hash browns as broadly as your evasive lines of reasoning, those would be the best, crispiest ‘taters of all time…………
HB Ando
February 17th, 2009
12:23 am
doc, if JJ played with a point guard as gifted as Paul (which, actually, he has noted, when the subject has been previously brought to his attention over the past few years), he’d average 30 points a game, take far less physical wear-and-tear, and, yes, he’s average a few less assists. This fan community has DEMANDED he assert himself as THE MAN, despite his naturally unselfish nature. And if Paul had a wing man as gifted as JJ, and the rest of the cast here, he’d average 15 dimes. Look at the players he’s had on the court with him. Are you kidding? JJ diverts so much defensive attention that Bibby is having his best season in years, despite clearly being a step slower than he was in his prime.
This whole line of reasoning, from you, is basically nonsense.
There is no logical, defensible position that either Paul or Roy would have failed to blossom in Atlanta, because of Woody. It’s just blather.
doc
February 17th, 2009
1:10 am
ando, good point about smith and his emergence and one i have made in a different context and as an argument for woody. there was also no one for smith to replace nor be replaced by and they just about beat each other down before it cmae tigether and some have their doubts even now. before you forget you brought smith up in this. honestly, we dont know what roy and paul would have done here and it is all speculation. would woody have handled the point differently as some surmise? i wonder if jj and paul would have co-existed or paul would have had his big numbers if jj needs the ball. all speculation but i brought them into the conversation as you had implied it when you spoke of bk and his capacity to mishandle things. horford is part of the conversation as he was part of the suns trade or non trade, luck or not. not quite as much hash as you think.
as you say it is of opinion and who would have predicted that roy and paul would have been suggested as top ten players within three years of their draft class. no, i didnt feel the need to pat myself on the back about roy and doubt i said he was that good. they are all part of their system just as another oversight deron williams is after a very tenuous start in utah. jj wouldnt have been an all star as the fourth option in phoenix or he would have pushed someone else out the door earlier and achieve it anyway, canyou say you know otherwise? even sarver could have used him as trade bait if it wasnt going to work out. sarver was too stupid to see what he had in his hands and bet on the fact the hawks would gift wrap him something or he would choose more wisely. wrong bet, stupidity or bad luck; bird in the hand stuff, no?. who knows? most players are products of their environments and the players around them and coaches. they arent insulated from that, funny you would even argue that, as there are few players that could possibly go it alone. i would guess none. foolishly i say, mj needed zen man and his system. magic needed his pardners, bird needed mchale, johnson and the chief. i guess all one can say of the speculative part of all this and why this forum is so much fun is ….
only the shadow knows.
dude, it is the liars table. i really thought you had more flexibility in your brain. maybe, it is i didnt use my commas correctly. my bad. and as i said each player is a different story.
now, be kind to your elder.
ray as far as the instigator thing, go back and see my reference to the sarver thing was based on melvn’s comments fromcollins about saver. you followed with; “Heh. Doc still disagrees vehemently with Ando on the particulars of acquiring JJ from the Suns”. in another thread i even commented it was in reference to other bloggers intentionally not mentioning ando. while i was talking about salary cap with ando, he ultimately piped in on the sarver thing as though i was talking to him. again my play was off collins/melvin not ando. geez, i can say what ando wants to say about that subject as well as he can by now.
Big Ray
February 17th, 2009
3:14 am
Doc,
What you call instigation, I call premonition. With a sense of deja vu. Your comments:
“so, finally some sense on how the suns have imploded since they got rid of jj for essentially nothing to show for it except maybe richardson and lopez. i dont think they got anything of value for rondo did they? yup, that was a smooth move for us an all star and horford to boot. say what we could have rondo? yup, sitting right next to speedy as a guard that cant shoot.”
That about sums it up. Gee, making comments like that on a blog that Ando co-hosts isn’t wrong, but I don’t suppose the thought occurred to you that it might spark up old arguments. Nah. I make light of the situation and get called an instigator for my trouble. Heh. Alrighty then.
Enjoy your amusement. I’ll be scrolling from now on….
doc
February 17th, 2009
7:25 am
again ray it innocently followed the comment and i quote,
Melvin
February 15th, 2009
10:52 pm
Hmmmm, Doug Collins just said the owner (or GM) of the Suns said this weekend that they made of mistake by not signing Joe Johnson. Let’s see the Suns got Diaw and 2 1st round picks from the Hawks. So that’s 3 1st round talents they received in return from the Hawks and they still say they was on the losing end of that deal… Oh my, maybe Billy did get that one right…
ray, it seems i was jumped by the tag team the assassins one and two on this one. kind of like an double omelette to go with the hash browns.
those comments were also before ando’s comments about how roy and paul would have thrived in woody’s “system”. i think you did scroll on that one or was faint of heart bud. i do have a sense of rondo, not clearly as gifted, not playing much in our scheme nor maybe d. williams if he had come here. yeah, roy and paul might have made it, only based on what i have seen and read on how woody brings along points it would not have been as smooth as the transition they have had in portland and new orleans respectively. even the vet aj chafed at the way woody used him. funny, he even said how smith had thrived here. the times that smith and woody have butted heads and were several was when smith went off script, control freak woody is, no? seems ando overlooked that in his arguments last night. eventually paul and roy would have spent their time in woody’s dog house admittedly only an opinion. okay, keep it quiet so you dont disturb your co-author. we are cool.
richbrave
February 17th, 2009
7:49 am
Wow, doc, big ray and the hits just keep comin’. Roll on blog, roll on. BTW doc, CRITTER continues to get some burn. He does have potential, long, lean and quick, all the traits that ERNIE GRUNFELT likes in his playa’s.
doc
February 17th, 2009
8:26 am
richie as i said the most impressive thing i didnt realize about crit was how quick he was even in the pros for being so long. it might take him a bit to catch up to it. if he does watch out. i am surprised his shot seems to have deteriorated at the higher level as has acie’s.
Melvin
February 17th, 2009
10:08 am
Wow. It’s getting HOTT in here. The guns are pointed in every direction. It seems that my name has been link to the Hawks Hack Showdown, I guess I will sneak out the backdoor before someone notice me leaving…heh,heh
Sautee
February 17th, 2009
10:20 am
Melvin,
Even if you’re gone, we all know that it was all your fault. Heh heh.
doc
February 17th, 2009
10:51 am
yeah melvin, where were you when the masked assassins came into the ring? i’ll look to someone else to keep my back dude and those guys wear black masks and shorts. heh heh, anyway i got to go finish the omelette i cooked last night. tastes good with fava beans which are much better for you than hash browns.
Melvin
February 17th, 2009
11:24 am
Sautee, sometimes it’s better to run to live to see another day than to stay and face your fate..lol
Doc, somebody hit me from behind with a chair in the dressing room and knock me out cold. I swear, I was on my way to the ring before that happen…lol
If all fells, I will have Manny T point the jumbotron at you and ANDO during the KISS CAM segment…
doc
February 17th, 2009
11:50 am
ROFL
ant banks
February 17th, 2009
4:04 pm
anyone breakin’ down the lakers game?
richbrave
February 17th, 2009
4:06 pm
doc:
Yeah, I guerss. Didn’t see him at TECH, but I understand it was potent. Don’t know what’s up with that.
doc
February 17th, 2009
6:42 pm
dad gum is this the AJC library? mighty quiet.
Big Ray
February 17th, 2009
8:39 pm
Melvin,
We should file this one under “Cold Case” reports….sheesh. Remind me to avoid announcing ringside at fights, will ya? I’ve never seen the guy holding the microphone get hit before…
RichBrave,
I’m betting that Critt has the same issues Law has when it comes to his jumper: in college, they both used it a lot. In the pros, what time they have been given has come mostly in practice. And who knows how their coaches were telling them to play, and what to do. I’m betting that none of them had either guy shooting much, just distributing. At Tech, Critt was a monster. He could shoot from anywhere. He’s got the skills, but he needs to be brought along. And he needs stability. Three teams in less than 2 years? Ouch. That didn’t help.
Doc,
If Law’s jumper has deteriorated, then the statisticians have been lying to us. He shot well over 50% throughout the preseason, and hit nearly the same from 3 point range, where he took (and made) several shots. I’d say his jumper experienced atrophy instead. With less and less use, it reacts like a muscle would.
Big Ray
February 17th, 2009
8:40 pm
I don’t mess with fava beans. They sound like something that would cause me to clear the ring without throwing a single punch….
Big Ray
February 17th, 2009
8:54 pm
So Othello Hunter gets some time in the D-league. That raises a few questions in my mind. Is this in preparation for a move that’s about to be made? Why couldn’t Hunter get time in the D-League sooner? Why couldn’t Gardner? West? Morris? Why is this happening NOW with a guy like Hunter? Okay, so that’s more than a few…
Melvin
February 17th, 2009
8:55 pm
Ray,
I’m not sure you would be safe as the ring annoucer b/c I remember Mean Gene getting into a few skimish thru out the years…
Melvin
February 17th, 2009
8:59 pm
I wouldn’t read too much into the Hunter move to the D-League b/c they said he will only be there for a few games as he will rejoin the team in Portland… How much could this help his development, beats me. Can’t imagine him being included into the game plan with limited pratice time, unless he’s Iverson…
Big Ray
February 17th, 2009
9:01 pm
Melvin,
I ain’t worried
. I’m in a whole different weight class. Cruiser weight. And since I’m now in the mood, here’s something for round 2:
“At this point, the only thing that slows them down is any miscalculations or mistakes they might make in terms of how they retool that roster this summer,” an Eastern Conference assistant general manager friend told me during All-Star Weekend in Phoenix. “I’ll be honest, I’m stunned they’ve managed to survive all the draft mistakes that have were made the past few years. Not taking Chris Paul and Brandon Roy in successive years is just inexcusable. You normally would have to sacrifice somebody when you botch drafts like that. But I have to give them some credit, they’ve managed to survive and come out with a workable set up for the immediate future.”
…..*whistling innocently*…Hey, if I’m going to be half of a mask-wearing assassin duo, I may as well live up to it and throw a shuriken or two. Heh heh heh…
Can’t wait for tonight’s game. I hope JJ gives Kobe hell, and doesn’t get called for fouls every five seconds. And I want to see Big Al and JSmash do their thing to Gasol and Odom. Maybe Bibby will revisit his old Sacto days on the Lakers, too.
KevinA
February 17th, 2009
9:02 pm
Better yet what about Acie.
doc
February 17th, 2009
9:07 pm
ray if you are talking to me … hand. besides i already directly answered that on sekou’s blog. heh heh, oh yeah!
Big Ray
February 17th, 2009
9:19 pm
Doc,
Not sure which subject you’re referring to. There are a couple on hand. And if you’re going to throw up the hand, then so can I. Heh heh.
Big Ray
February 17th, 2009
9:34 pm
RichBrave,
Your boy Critt looks good tonight off the bench against Minnesota.
doc
February 17th, 2009
9:49 pm
ray i will make it simple for you:
By doc
February 17, 2009 11:19 AM | Link to this
sekou, some well know i have harangued a bit on jj of late. i dont think he is a superstar yet and feel josh will ultimately be the spitrit that takes this team higher, in time. with that said JOE JOHNSON has been the reason that they have a team to build around and why they were able to survive those draft mistakes as implausible as they were. that theme was well beaten up on the hack last night.
jj has been the common thread of our rising from the ashes and he should get mighty credit as nash has to get major cred for their mercurial run and rise. some players are just that valuable no matter the cost. some guys are THE CORNERSTONE even if they arent superstars and jj is that guy for us.
as melvin said bk got the right guy …. though some haggle on the price. own up to it melvin. heh heh
…. now, either duck or bunker down.
Melvin
February 17th, 2009
11:00 pm
Hawks off to a go start up by 9 in the 1st. They need to do better in on the defensive glass. Lakers already have several offensive rebounds.
Melvin
February 17th, 2009
11:05 pm
Hawks goes on a 6-0 run, Phil Jackson calls timeout. Lakers goes on the 8-0 run after the timeout Woody does nothing while his team miss several jumpshots and commit 2 turnovers… Hawks end the 1st with a 1 pt lead….
richbrave
February 17th, 2009
11:06 pm
ray:
I think that’s doc and my boy CRITTER. He gets a deep two-ball just inside the three-line with just over a minute to play which puts the WIZ up for the first time in the 4th quarter. Then he penetrates under the basket and dishes to the corner to MIKE JAMES for a three to ice the game. Assist to CRITTENTON. He’s getting more burn as his level of play improves. He’s definitely on the up-tic. I’m telling you he’s the next to last piece in GRUNFELD’s rebuild of the WIZARDS. THABEET will be the last piece, although I don’t know how they’re gonna sign him with $75.9+ mill already committed for 2009-2010.
Big Ray
February 17th, 2009
11:13 pm
Doc,
Ahhh. Sounds like a defense against yesterday’s “discussion” more than anything else.
On the subject of JJ, I agree with the fact that he’s our cornerstone. That’s an easy thing to say and hang your hat on, since he’s the best player on our team. Here’s where you tap dance the best, though: 1)drafting Roy or Paul changes all of that, leaving you with better options and more than one main guy to build with. And who’s to say that either guy couldn’t/wouldn’t play well in the backcourt with JJ? How much better could we be? And don’t give me any nonsense about either guy not being able to develop under Woodson, as Josh Smith has been able to do it, regardless of how much Woodson has helped or hurt (depending on point of view). Imagining either guard in the backcourt with JJ, who still is not the alpha male we need him to be, and taking on that role…
Don’t want to hear about revisionism? But you won’t let it go…careful, you may dig up more skeletons than you want to fight, old boy.
But wait a minute. Do I not recall the good doctor saying that it may be Josh Smith that takes this team forward, or is my memory failing me?
Then there’s another point to consider: Bibby is what has changed this team, cornerstone or not. He changed the way we played ball. Want to keep going?
Big Ray
February 17th, 2009
11:15 pm
Doc,
But anyway, we could keep chasing the dog’s tail. We won’t agree, it’s that simple, if you want it made simple for all concerned.
doc
February 17th, 2009
11:17 pm
richie, glad to hear it. i was plus minus on him when i saw him this year before the game here on the tube and the one at the phillips. i really liked him as a multi-dimensional payer with some significant upside if given time. samuel did too at the time. i think he may have been a bit younger than most as a freshman in college. to me he was the guy to get as it looked as if we werent going to let the new guy play as it looked. we really had three aged points and the next coming from the draft. we looked set for the upcoming year and to some degree we were since we loaded up the bus and sent them packing to get bibby.
solo doin it man.
Melvin
February 17th, 2009
11:24 pm
Will somebody please block out Lamar Odom…
Melvin
February 17th, 2009
11:34 pm
Joe need to step his game up in the 2nd half. Kobe is treating him like a wet food stamp….
doc
February 17th, 2009
11:36 pm
ray, you are kidding man arent you? that reply was specifically in response to what the friend of sekou said about he is amazed that the hawks could have survived the awful drafts that ignored roy and paul. dude where are you coming from? left field? you better go back and find your fellow assassin as the last i heard from him he was scrambling his brains at the chateau d’ waffielle. you are taking it out of context dude. go back and read when i said it uh after sekou’s column posted this morning to help you out and it had nothing to do with what was said last night and why i said it because sekou made the comment in your quote above; then realize you arent making any sense in the context of just that and nothing else.
look, you know, i said at the time of the draft that roy and jj would be evil together. you cant even say that in terms of paul as joe wasnt ours at that point. it is just that has absolutely nothing to do with the reason we have survived without them, the subject and question raised in sekou’s thread. my response, uhh the cornerstone of jjjjjooooooe johnson. i assure you i aint tap dancing anywhere and only commenting on sekou’s buddies remarks.
geez i even led my comments off with my own admission that i had railed against joe a bit and he wouldnt be the guy to ultimately be the spirit that propels this team higher before i laid the cornerstone comment out there. i still felt the reason we had survived the idiot moves on draft day by bk in terms of overlooking those guys was joe. durn man, what is the point? are you hard of reading?
Big Ray
February 17th, 2009
11:36 pm
Down at the half, with the Lakers pounding us on the boards. Josh Smith got early foul trouble, and has no rebounds, leaving Horford to do the work all by himself. Josh better step it up in the second half.
I see we’re doing the usual: live by the backcourt, die by the backcourt. Guess which one it is so far tonight….
Big Ray
February 17th, 2009
11:41 pm
Doc,
Of course I’m kidding. I thought you said you were having fun with this? What changed?
Big Ray
February 17th, 2009
11:45 pm
Hard of reading? Oh, now that’s LOW, considering where it comes from. I hope this isn’t anything like commas and what not, lol…
doc
February 17th, 2009
11:55 pm
hand, hand, hand, hand, ,,,,,, heheh heh
tag melvin you are it, bed time. look out for the big guy in the black mask and funky shorts also black.
Big Ray
February 18th, 2009
12:18 am
We’re straight up getting whooped. Josh has not one rebound. WTF??!
Big Ray
February 18th, 2009
12:19 am
Odom is killing us, and so is Gasol. Speaking of killing us….Bibby and JJ aren’t helping much.
Can we hit a freakin’ shot? Josh! What is your problem! Grab a damn rebound!
HB Ando
February 18th, 2009
12:34 am
Down 25, with 6 and a half left, and the camera shows the expected blank look of Woody.
Odom 20 boards, and J Smoove zero…….
Guess these guys can’t get to the clubs fast enough……….
Big Ray
February 18th, 2009
12:34 am
At least Zaza showed he came to play. Dude almost has a double-double.
Big Ray
February 18th, 2009
12:38 am
Okay, so Horford had 6 points, 7 boards and 3 steals, largely all in the first half. Why didn’t he play more? I guess this is part of Woody’s “reprogramming” idea. Either that, or they are still trying to work Big Al back into the swing of things slowly.
If not, I’d have kept him in the game WITH Zaza, or figured out how to work Solomon Jones in more. Why? Because Josh Smith wasn’t playing worth a crap.
HB Ando
February 18th, 2009
12:47 am
Not a foul….
Damn!
Big Ray
February 18th, 2009
12:56 am
Heh, heh. We get beat like a drum on a night Kobe manages only 10 points on 4-12 shooting.
Yes, the Lakers are tops in the NBA.
**I won’t blame Woody** for Josh Smith not blocking out, and not grabbing a **single freakin’ rebound**. I’m so mad about that I cannot see straight. I didn’t see the game (followed it on yahoosports), but unless somebody who saw the game can tell me different, I’m going off of sheer lack of effort.
Congratulations to us, we let Odom get 20 rebounds, and Pau Gasol a triple-double. Fantastic.
Woody did the right thing by sitting the starters. Bibby and JJ in particular weren’t playing well, no sense in making them play 40+, which is what I was afraid he’d do.
Law and Evans did provide some energy, though Law is clearly not on his shot. His “D” is good though.
In garbage time, our reserves made the final score look better than it actually was. Thanks to them, we only lose by 13, not 25 (which is what it really was).
On the good end, there were a few guys who came to play and maximized their minutes: Zaza (8 points/12boards/3 assists), Solo (7 points/3 boards/2 blocks), and Mario (7 points/4 boards/5 steals).
Did I read that right? Mario had 4 boards in 6 minutes, but 6′9 240 lb jumping jack Josh Smith had **0**?? I’m still mad about that. No effort. No effort at all.
Melvin
February 18th, 2009
11:06 am
Calm down Big Ray. Josh was not guarding Lamar and he pickup 2 quick fouls in the 1st quarter which limited his playing time in the 1st half. Also, he seem to hurt his back in the 1st half as well. Not making an excuse for the guy but it wasn’t as one sided as the stats made indicate. However, he didn’t nor the team played a good game. Like Doc and Big ump (i think) said on the Sekou blog, when Phil call timeout to stop the Hawks 6pt run (in which I posted on last night), they made adjustments and were a totally different team from that point on.
Melvin
February 18th, 2009
11:29 am
On to other news, I watch the game on NBATV last nite and the Lakers crew broadcast the game. Snapper Jones (i that’s his name) made mention to the Suns owner comment last nite. He said Sarver (misp) admitted that his 1st mistake was letting Joe Johnson go… You happy Doc, I out of the dressing room…lol
Also, I notice this comment in the new article on the AJC Hawks page…
“Alex Martins, the Magic’s chief operating officer, said on Tuesday that the club is among as many as 15 teams who intend to tap into a $1.7 billion leaguewide credit facility that will soon be supplemented. It is unknown if the Atlanta Hawks are among the teams acquiring a loan.”
Do you all still think teams will be spluring on FA’s this summer? With half the league in financial trouble, this will have a direct impact on teams payroll and ability to spend this summer (see the Hornets salary dump yesterday). This summer will be an Owners Market b/c some teams will not have the capital to spend. Player’s agents will not have the leaverage to bully teams into overpaying for their clients. Not enough competition in the market. Resigning Bibby and Marvin, advantage BASG.
And if the Hawks are not one of the 15 teams in need of a loan, then I will give the ASG credit. Those guys have deeper pockets than I can imagine….
doc
February 18th, 2009
12:31 pm
thanks melvin, look out for the tall guy in back tights and a mask that has a sledge hammer out and is swinging it at your head.
Melvin
February 18th, 2009
4:23 pm
Doc,
Looks like the ring is clear. You can come out now..heh,heh
Big Ray
February 18th, 2009
7:14 pm
Melvin,
I’ll take your word for it.
Another late game tonight. I’m expecting different results altogether.
Big Ray
February 18th, 2009
7:33 pm
Interesting trades/trade rumors going on out there.
Chicago will miss Nocioni’s gritty play, but Miller is a true center. And John Salmons is quite the bargain with his salary vs. production. Now the Bulls have solved a couple of things: no more need to play a PF as a center, and hope that the other “power” forward has his head screwed on right that particular night (Tyrus Thomas). And Salmons is a steady scorer in case Deng can’t get it together. Boy has **he** not earned his money yet this year…injuries not withstanding.
As for the Kings’ side of things…well, they got better in some ways and worse in others. Gooden and Nocioni are quality guys, but they alone will not help the Kings be a better team.
Meanwhile, can we steal Camby? I know I’m holding out hope for nothing, but it’s more fun than just giving up…
Melvin
February 18th, 2009
8:48 pm
Camby, wishful thinking. We couldn’t bother to offer the Lakers a 2nd rounder in 2012 for Chris Mihm after the guy dunk a few on our heads last nite…
Grizzlies acquire Chris Mihm
MEMPHIS, February 18, 2009 – The Memphis Grizzlies added depth to the team’s frontcourt by acquiring Chris Mihm from the Los Angeles Lakers, Grizzlies General Manager and Vice President of Basketball Operations Chris Wallace announced today. The Grizzlies also received cash considerations in exchange for a 2013 protected second round draft pick.
Big Ray
February 18th, 2009
9:04 pm
Sick, isn’t it Melvin?
I can only hope that there’s truth to what is being said: we’ll have maximum flexibility this summer. Now if somebody could convince me that we’ll take advantage of it. I hope this summer goes better than the last one. By the way, I’ll be counting on your insight tonight. I won’t be able to watch the game again.
Big Ray
February 18th, 2009
9:16 pm
And here’s one for everybody to read, from NBA.com:
By Dave McMenamin, NBA.com Posted Feb 18 2009 1:29PM
LOS ANGELES — You know the old phrase used to describe a girl, “she’s good from afar, but far from good”? Twist it around and it applied to the shooting guard matchup at Staples Center on Tuesday, with the Lakers earning a 96-83 victory. The games of the Lakers’ Kobe Bryant and the Hawks’ Joe Johnson look the same from afar, but are far from the same.
Their bodies just beg for the comparison.
Kobe checks in at 6-foot-6 and 205 pounds. But for the bulk of his career, he was playing at 220. Joe has an inch and 30 pounds on Bryant, but he came into the league at 225.
They both have a versatile offensive game that’s built on the ability to score in a multitude of ways — from deep, off the dribble, catch-and-shoot — while possessing the court sense and passing ability to get others involved.
Entering Tuesday’s game, Bryant was averaging 27.7 points on 47.5 percent from the field, 35.0 percent from 3-point range and 86.9 from the line. Johnson was averaging 21.6 points on 43.3, 34.4 and 80.5 percent, respectively.
Break down Bryant’s points and you’ll find that 14.6 percent of them come on 3-pointers, 27.5 in the paint, 22.5 on free throws and the other 35.4 percent from midrange.
Johnson’s breakdown is 27.3 percent on treys, 26.7 in the paint, 16.9 on freebies and 29.1 percent from midrange.
They score in a similar fashion.
“I’ve always been a big Joe Johnson fan,” Bryant said after the game in which the two beat each other up for three quarters — Bryant going 4-for-12 for a season-low 10 points and Johnson missing 11 of 17 shots to end up with 14 — before neither played a minute in the fourth with the Lakers up by 25. “I felt like it was a big mistake for Phoenix to let him go when they did because I felt like you had another player who could create opportunities for others.”
“He’s extremely versatile,” Bryant said. “Go left. Go right. Shoot it. He’s a very good player.”
It’s a mutual admiration society between the two. “I still like to watch him as a player, I’m still a fan,” Johnson said. “It’s a little different when you’re in the NBA playing against him, but most definitely, I watch him and try to take little things that he used to do and try to put it into my game.”
The whiteboard in the Hawks’ visiting locker room before the game read: “Run Kobe off the three … Make him hit 2’s … Nothing in the paint.” That would be a pretty good plan for Joe, too, according to Lakers assistant coach Brian Shaw, who is responsible for scouting the Hawks.
With one exception:
“I just think Kobe is head and shoulders above everybody in terms of his tenacity and will to compete, that killer attitude and instinct that he has,” Shaw said.
Everything that seemed so similar before starts to bear no resemblance. Bryant’s success starts in his head and the body follows. Johnson is still the other way around.
Maurice Evans, Bryant’s former backcourt mate in L.A. and Johnson’s current backup in Atlanta, agrees. “I think you see a little bit of the mental edge [with Bryant] as far as the confidence level, as far as winning championships and having a greater level of success,” Evans said. “When [the Hawks] played Boston last year and they went to Game 7, Kobe’s been in situations where he’s actually won that game and had that type of success. Once Joe gets that under his belt, I think he can start playing on that level.”
It’s that mental edge that made their USA Basketball experiences so different.
Before Bryant came to the Redeem Team’s rescue, averaging 15 points in the Olympics and scoring a clutch four-point play to help seal the gold medal game in Beijing, Team USA had Johnson playing the two. He averaged just 7.3 points on the team that took home bronze at the 2006 World Championship of Basketball.
It’s that supreme confidence by Bryant that made their All-Star weekends so opposite.
Johnson and Bryant were both selected to play in Phoenix, but Bryant scored 27 points en route to being named co-MVP while Johnson was the only player in the game to go scoreless.
But neither Bryant nor Johnson were the show on Tuesday.
The man of the hour was University of Southern California senior Robert Ward, who banked in a half court shot to win $165,000.
Pau Gasol had the third triple-double of his career, finishing with an effortless 12 points, 13 rebounds and 10 assists. New additions Adam Morrison and Shannon Brown suited up for the first time. After Jordan Farmar turned the ball over late in the fourth, Brown chased down Mario West and made an incredible block where he elevated so high he could have rejected the ball with his armpit, according to Bryant. The play was so awe inspiring that the Staples Center video board operators showed it on replay over and over, even though the block didn’t technically count because Brown was whistled for a foul.
Lamar Odom won a bet with Bryant that he would snag 20 rebounds after just missing the mark the last three games. Odom finished with 15 points and 20 boards. He also said that by winning the bet, Bryant owes him.
“But what he owes me comes in June,” Odom said.
“Kobe did his damage,” Atlanta coach Mike Woodson said, not even knowing about the incentive Bryant put out there to make Odom a game-changer on the glass.
“I challenge guys, I just want to get the best out of them really,” Bryant said. Even when he scored a season low, he had a hand in his teammate corralling a season high.
Johnson’s teammate Josh Smith, playing Odom’s same position, finished the game with zero boards. You think Johnson challenged Smith to do that?
It doesn’t take a genius to see why Bryant thrives.
Big Ray
February 18th, 2009
9:19 pm
To me, one of the biggest things that stands out is the leadership. Scoring 20+ points does not make you a leader. If it does, then Ben Gordon is the Bulls’ leader. Corey Maggette is a natural born leader. And Glenn Robinson should have lead teams to multiple titles.
The other thing is the percentage of points each guy got, and WHERE. And it’s not like this is old news. We’ve discussed it on the blogs to death.
niremetal
February 18th, 2009
9:48 pm
Ray,
(This is a response to a post you made on Sekou’s blog; it won’t let me post it there)
I think JJ is underrated, but you’ll never hear me say that I think he’s on Kobe’s level. But that’s no insult. Kobe is the reigning MVP. He’s a first-ballot Hall of Famer. There are only 2 other players in the whole league who I think have his combination of skill, leadership, and clutch play – Tim Duncan and LeBron. Those are the only three players in the league who turn whatever team they’re on into a contender, assuming they have even a halfway decent coach and serviceable teammates, because their mere presence forces the opposing team to focus everything they have on stopping them – particularly when it’s close and late.
There are some people around here love to bash JJ (and I’m not saying you’re one of them). Truth is, he’s the kind of player who is in the tier right below Bryant – the kind of player you can easily build a playoff team around if you get the right parts, but who won’t get you there on your own. There are about 12-15 players in that category and I’d say JJ is near the middle of that tier. He’s clearly behind guys like Chris Paul (who could crack that Kobe/LeBron/TD tier very soon), Dwight Howard (same), Dwayne Wade (who is veeerrry close to that top tier right now, but who I don’t think has that “killer instinct” that he needs to get over the top), Yao Ming (when healthy), and Kevin Garnett; and comparable to players like Steve Nash (the 2009 model, not the 2006), Dirk Nowitzki (same), Amare Stoudemire, Paul Pierce, Pau Gasol, Brandon Roy, Chris Bosh, Chauncey Billups, Deron Williams, Vince Carter and Carmelo Anthony. At this point, I’d put him ahead of Ray Allen, Carlos Boozer, Josh Howard, or Allen Iverson, none of whom can be the best player on a playoff contender at this point, I don’t think.
The general rule, I think, is this: If you want to get to the playoffs, you need at least 1 guy from the second tier. If you want to go deep in the playoffs, you need at least 2 (or at least 1 guy from the first category). If you want to win a title, you need at least 3 (or 1 guy from the first tier and 1 from the second). Depending on how much depth you have, you can shift between those categories.
The long and short of all this is that the Hawks have what they have. The reason I would be willing to sell the farm to get Amare is that I think they need another “second tier star” like him to have a shot at a title.
The truth is that we’re not going to be able to get much better than JJ for a long time. Players better than him are very hard to come by. We’re seriously talking less than 10 players on the planet that are better than him right now. Draw me up a deal that gets us one of those guys, and I’ll sign up. Otherwise, we should focus on getting another player of his caliber instead of whining that JJ isn’t good enough.
Melvin
February 18th, 2009
9:55 pm
Ray, you hit the nail on the head. “Will we take advantage of the flexibility this summer”. There will be alot of quality players available this summer and for cheap. Again, with 15 teams in finacial trouble, it maybe a bad time to be a free agent… If the Hawks stick their handout for a loan from the league, hopefully we can pickup a few pieces to improve the team… Advantage Owners….
I can’t believe I’m staying up tonite to watch the Hawks after that beat down we took last nite. I must be a LOYAL HAWKS FAN…
KevinA
February 18th, 2009
10:11 pm
On a positive note the heat just lost. The Hawks still own the 3 1/2 lead over the closest three teams.
Melvin
February 18th, 2009
10:19 pm
Josh leave the game at the 7:31 mark in the 1st with 2 fouls. He’s 1-3 with 1 turnover… ugly start for him…
Melvin
February 18th, 2009
10:22 pm
Here’s one for you Ando. The Sac commentators just said that Joe style is similiar to B.Roy of Portland…
niremetal
February 18th, 2009
10:30 pm
Man…Horford didn’t like getting outrebounded yesterday. 8 in 8 minutes. Not bad.
Melvin
February 18th, 2009
10:38 pm
Bibby seem to have the shooting touch in the 1st qtr. And AL is doing his best Lamar Odom impersonation with 9rbs and two nice low post moves to finish in the paint…
Big Ray
February 18th, 2009
11:00 pm
Niremetal,
That response was literally off the freakin’ chain. Excellent persepective, man. Truly excellent. I’m diggin’ that.
Big Ray
February 18th, 2009
11:15 pm
Melvin,
Yeah. Ain’t that something? But check it: they are saying that Joe’s game is like Roy’s, not the other way around…
Bibby’s definitely on, but we seem determined yet again to live and die through the backcourt. Keep feeding Horford. But no, we’ll go away from him in the second half. He’ll end up with 9 points and 17 rebounds.
Melvin
February 18th, 2009
11:15 pm
What a disgrace. Hawks gave up a 13pt 2nd qtr lead and end the 1st half down by 4. All this to a depleted Kings team. There was even a Shelden Williams sighting…
KevinA
February 18th, 2009
11:21 pm
Horford was hot, why did we go away from him? Oh yea we play guard first.
Big Ray
February 18th, 2009
11:22 pm
Let them right back in it, and they don’t even have Miller and Salmons.
richbrave
February 18th, 2009
11:29 pm
ray:
Checked DAVID O’BRIEN’s blog for JUNIOR sightings. Wow. The sky is falling….the sky is falling.!!!!
Big Ray
February 18th, 2009
11:35 pm
Gave up the lead. Sheesh. We better come out better than this in the second half and CRUSH these guys. We can’t continue to be a one-punch team.
niremetal
February 18th, 2009
11:40 pm
Man…sad watching Smoove shoot free throws. He takes in a big breath right as soon as he gets the ball. So nervous…
niremetal
February 18th, 2009
11:41 pm
This is just awful defense…
Big Ray
February 18th, 2009
11:41 pm
That’s a bit more like it. Man, is Horford on a mission or WHAT? Keep feeding him.
Come on, Josh. Get in the groove. Two blocked shots gives me some hope…
Horford is really doing it all, points, rebounds, assists…And Bibby has the hot hand. Yeah, you won’t hear much from me while he’s doing this well.
Big Ray
February 18th, 2009
11:46 pm
RichBrave,
That’s what I heard. I ain’t even trying to go near the blog right now…
Melvin
February 18th, 2009
11:47 pm
Looking a Shreef on the Kings bench, I couldn’t but think what if Josh had his size hands. Whew, that would be nasty…
Melvin
February 18th, 2009
11:51 pm
That should have read “Looking at Shreef”
Melvin
February 18th, 2009
11:51 pm
Enter your comments here
Melvin
February 18th, 2009
11:53 pm
ROFL. Shelden shoots an air ball 3pt shot to end the 3rd qtr and Woody gave him a steer like WTF????? Uh Woody, he’s no longer a member of the Hawks….lol
Big Ray
February 18th, 2009
11:54 pm
Mario West does NOT PLAY, man.
He comes INTO the game, lookin’ to foul somebody’s a$$…didn’t even take him 6 freakin’ seconds!
niremetal
February 18th, 2009
11:56 pm
So frustrating to watch the Hawks play. Remember when JJ went down and Marvin led us to back-to-back victories in his absence? Now that JJ’s back, Woodson is running the entire offense through the backcourt and relegating Marvin to being a spot-up shooter. JESUS FREAKING CHRIST – WHAT WILL IT TAKE FOR HIM TO UTILIZE THE TALENT THAT HE HAS?!?!?!?!?
The answer: He never will. I seriously fear that Marvin will fly the coop at the end of this year, land on the Hornets or Jazz, and average 22ppg. You can laugh now, but he’s so much more talented than just being a spot-up shooter, and in the right offense, he could average 18-20 easy. Alongside a great PG who can run that offense, he could put up All-Star numbers. Mark my words…
Big Ray
February 19th, 2009
12:07 am
Melvin,
That’s funny as hell
KevinA
February 19th, 2009
12:17 am
JJ with 5 turn overs.
KevinA
February 19th, 2009
12:18 am
Flip is out and no Acie.
Hawk Fan
February 19th, 2009
12:23 am
That is some very cool reporting! Great job as usual!Hawk fan
doc
February 19th, 2009
12:26 am
nire werent you the guy singing the virtues of jj earlier in the blog? he could uh pass if he wanted to instead of dominate play or maybe get the ball to guys where they need it without a second left to shoot, maybe not shoot up a three on a sole breakaway with four defenders around the basket, or even maybe give it to someone and set a pick. hmm btw ray, when was the last great defensive play jj has made. can anyone attest to one in the past three months? just asking.
KevinA
February 19th, 2009
12:30 am
Mercy, JJ culd have sealed the game.
KevinA
February 19th, 2009
12:33 am
A win is a win. Should we be worried about the next 5 games?
Melvin
February 19th, 2009
12:37 am
Ray,
Hawks win a nail bitter. I will take the win. Going to bed now. I will read your comments in the morning….
niremetal
February 19th, 2009
12:48 am
Doc,
Come on, man, you know better than that. You can’t just say “pass more” if there’s no offensive plays being run. If no one is moving and no off-ball screens are being set, who is he supposed to pass it to? The positioning on nearly every godforsaken possession is Horford on the block, and the rest of the players stationary on the perimeter.
Here is nearly every possession: Bibby/JJ bring the ball up the court on one side. Horford goes to the block. Marvin goes to the opposite corner. Smoove goes to the opposite wing. Bibby/JJ (whoever doesn’t have the ball) goes to the top of the key. Sometimes, Horford (or Zaza) or Bibby (if JJ has the ball) comes to set a pick. I think I’ve seen Marvin set 1 or 2 off-ball screens this year, but that’s it. NO ONE ELSE MOVES. The players fidget a bit so that JJ/Bibby can get a better angle to pass to them if they get in trouble while driving to the hole, but no one actually moves more than 5 feet from their position at the beginning of the play.
What’s the freaking point of passing in that offense? If no one’s moving to get in a better position to score than you are, what the hell should you do?
You know better, Doc. You’ve seen these guys play.
So no, I don’t blame JJ or Bibby, and I don’t think they’re selfish players. But in Woody’s Mikan-era offensive setup, no one moves. No one works to get teammates open. They stay fixed in their positions like the terracotta warriors. And THAT is not Bibby and JJ’s fault, unless you think they should be teaching the team new plays and running them during practice (which is the coach’s job, last I checked).
Rod from College Park
February 19th, 2009
12:58 am
Niremetal,
Hate to disagree with you, but Marvin is a bum. He will never become a great player in this league, because he just is not that good. Watching the Lakers game now, and wishing we had Ariza, instead of Marvin. He is too inconsistent.
niremetal
February 19th, 2009
1:02 am
Ok, Rod. Ariza over Marvin…just wow.
Big Ray
February 19th, 2009
1:54 am
Niremetal,
Yeah. You preach, and I’ll play the organ while the choir sings. I really don’t know what to say. To Bibby’s credit, the offense moves more since he came, but we only seem to play like that a couple games at a time. Remember some games back where Marvin and Josh were tossing up 20 point games? It’s like Woody couldn’t stand it or something.
This guy is not going to take us anywhere.
Rod,
I know you don’t like Marvin very much, but I’ve seen him play totally different than he has up to this point. His game has changed, whereas his numbers have not.
The offense is dominated by the guards, and you see how they shot against L.A. They always take the most shots, while our athletic forwards are ignored half the time. Against Sacramento, Bibby encountered a lackluster defense, and he got the hot hand early. Ariza is an energetic player, but I’ve seen Marvin play with that same energy. I’ve seen him running around, blocking shots, and dunking. Ariza gets his because of the offense they run. Look at our offense. Considering who is coaching here, I don’t even know if Ariza gets anymore PT than Solo would. And Solo is an energy guy, too.
Anyway, we probably will just disagree on the value of Marvin. There are several guys who perform better. But I really have to wonder what Marvin would do if he was on another team….or if we just ran our offense more through our frontcourt. With two guards who are taking 17-19 shots per game APIECE, and a very stagnant, motionless offense….where does a guy like Marvin get big points?
Melvin,
I’ll take the win, too. I hope we start playing better though. The road ahead doesn’t get easier, and we’ve shown that if we play crappy enough, we can lose at home, too. Still, a better effort and overall performance tonight. Horford was one DETERMINED individual. Good gracious. Where’s the clown Clyde to tell me how bad of a player Horford is…
Big Ray
February 19th, 2009
3:39 am
And Stoudamire pours in yet another monster performance with 42 points and 11 rebounds. Yeah, we definitely should say no to guys like that. They’re not worth anything…
doc
February 19th, 2009
8:11 am
ray, problem is he doesnt perform if he isnt happy. he is a quitter.
nire, i have seen a lot of this team and they do rotate the ball well and cut and screen well from time to time. sometimes their offense also bogs down and the ball ends up in someone’s hands for long periods of time. maybe it is the play calling. notice you didnt really respond to the screens nor big defensive plays. good very good player not above reproach.
okay, happy with a win. just get me to the playoffs healthy, right?
doc
February 19th, 2009
12:39 pm
ray i guess what we have learned is the suns can drop 140 on the clips any night they want to. kind of wonder why we werent able to do it.
nire any more on the legal front?
niremetal
February 19th, 2009
2:05 pm
Haven’t had time to get back to the courthouse since Tuesday. I’ll probably go again this coming Tuesday, though.
doc
February 19th, 2009
3:28 pm
thanks as always good stuff, even when we disagree.
Melvin
February 19th, 2009
4:36 pm
Man, it’s quiet in here. Ray, must still be getting his beauty rest. Guess I will check back later when the Night Owl himself has arisen…
Big Ray
February 19th, 2009
6:54 pm
Melvin,
Been at work since 5 p.m. yesterday. All was well until about midnight (nothing unusual, just listening to my guys do their traffic stops and what not). Then it hit the fan. Two fires (one of them I’m surprised the media didn’t get ahold of), and I damn near got my butt burned three shades blacker…
Then the storm hit. That was fun. One 900+ foot ship lost it’s lines and blocked up the river. There’s nothing like getting a lot of VIPs out of bed at 2:30 a.m. My head still hasn’t hit a pillow, and if there’s a game on tonight, it’ll be a while longer. 26 hours and counting. I’m still young…..
Big Ray
February 19th, 2009
7:14 pm
Melvin,
Beauty doesn’t even belong in the same sentence with me. Ugly helps me do my job better. Don’t know what my wife sees in me. She can do better than this. I always tell her she might get lucky and I’ll get killed on the job. Heh.
Big Ray
February 19th, 2009
7:15 pm
For some reason, she doesn’t think that’s funny. Ah well. Nobody understands cop humor…
Melvin
February 19th, 2009
10:01 pm
Ray,
she will cry all the way to the bank (just kidding)… Glad to hear you made it thru a tough nite. I will finally get some rest nite as well b/c we don’t have a late game. Dang, this west coast trip is hard on me as well….
Big Ray
February 19th, 2009
10:53 pm
Still can’t wait for the game tomorrow night. I’ll get to watch this one, as I’ll be off duty. In the meantime, I’m workin’ up a new blog. See ya on the flip side….