A Few Trade Thoughts
Emeka Okafor goes up for a shot….and gets rejected by the Hawks one-man SWAT team, Joooooooosh Smiiiiiiiith! Well, that’s not how it was said by the announcer, but that’s what I heard in my own head (I like to call it selective announcement…I use it sometimes when Dominique is talking).
Gotta love it. As I watched this play happen, another thought popped in my head: I haven’t seen too many of those from Amare Stoudamire. It’s not often that you see him sky over a teammate AND the opposing player for a block. The desire. The timing. The sheer effort and elite physicality of it. It boggles the minds of opponents, teammates, and fans alike. It makes a lot of opponents nervous around the rim, because once Josh does it…he’s liable to do it again. Soon. Does Stoudamire inspire such feelings in opponents? By the way, if you’re miffed that I’m not spelling the guy’s name “right”, I reserve the right not to. After all, what can you expect from a hack?
Early and mid February is always a fun time if you follow the trade rumors. I swear it’s more about the anticipation than anything else. Yet every year, something happens that changes things. Really changes things. If not for the whole league, or one of the conferences, then at least for a couple of teams. Last year was a dominoe effect out West, the likes of which has not been seen in some time. One team made great strides. Two others have found themselves either in limbo, or on a downward spiral. What will this year’s trade deadline frenzy bring?
As most of you already know, Al Horford and Josh Smith have been the most oft-mentioned names on the subject of trade here in Hawksville. Well, lately anyway. Usually it’s Marvin Williams (year after year). This time it’s Smith and Horford, a pair of forwards that you’d think wouldn’t be mentioned as much in trade talk. The reason? Well, the aforementioned Phoenix Suns power forward of course-Mr. Stoudamire. The question is simple. What would we or should we give up to get this guy? Some people have advocated throwing everything at the Suns but the kitchen sink (and maybe that, too). Of course, we’ve just about done this once already, but that’s another story. Others say Stoudamire isn’t worth the bother, despite all-star status, and high-level performances from year to year. Some would say that Stoudamire is what he is primarily because of the Suns’ otherworldly point guard, Steve Nash. While this matter is certainly debatable, I’m inclined to think this is no more true for Stoudamire than it is for Marion. Nash makes anybody worth their NBA socks better, but both of those guys have talent of their own.
Those who want the Hawks to acquire Stoudamire end up hashing out whether it is better to center the trade package around Josh Smith or Al Horford. Both ideas have their merits, if you want the trade to happen. No matter which it is, if the Hawks are able to acquire Stoudamire, the situation is a risky one. Stoudamire could opt out of his contract in 2010 (or afterwards, I forget what exactly the deal is). And he’s not known for his defense. Questions abound about his attitude (though there have been tumultous changes in Phoenix lately), and his character abound, though I don’t recall him getting into any particular trouble. But one big question remains. Do the Hawks even have a chance at Stoudamire? Perhaps. But then, perhaps not. Some media sources are saying that Stoudamire is headed elsewhere, and that it will be a Western team that he goes to, as the Suns try to reload with a bit of youth. Who knows. One rumor is as “reliable” as another, after all.
Getting past that one, should the Hawks even make a move of that magnitude? Or should they try something more subtle? Should the Hawks just weather the storm of rumors, frantic phone calls, and general knee jerk reactions? Is Chris Bosh (another name mentioned in trade rumors, and amongst the Hawks faithful) a better answer? It’s true that the Hawks appear firmly entrenched as the 4th seed in the East. For now. Lord knows things can change over the next 34 games (including tonight’s contest). One wonders if there is a way to make a move that makes this team better both now and in the future, without completely upsetting the chemistry?
Well, back to the game, where we trail the Bobcats by a about a half-dozen points. Emeka Okafor already has a double-double, we’re shooting 10% less than the ‘Cats, and nobody in a Hawks uniform is playing very well, save Mo Evans. I have to add that Bibby seems to be picking it up a bit. Charlotte always gives us a hard time, but it would be nice to get a win against these guys on the road, especially without Joe Johnson. This would go a long way in helping to build consistency, and therefore confidence….and therefore more consistency.
Meanwhile, those trade winds continue to blow. Your thoughts?
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101 comments Add your comment
Big Ray
February 6th, 2009
9:02 pm
Between Marvin and the Flip/Mo squad, we may pull this out yet…
Big Ray
February 6th, 2009
9:26 pm
Marvin has really been having a fantastic game from the line. He’s been huge tonight. That, and the Hawks have really made the ‘Cats work for what they get in the 4th quarter. Still a tight game, but there’s no feeling of a momentum change (and hopefully it stays that way).
Big Ray
February 6th, 2009
9:30 pm
You really have to wonder why Marvin doesn’t show this aggressiveness every game. Of course, I have a few ideas as to why, but they may be premature.
Matt =niremetal
February 6th, 2009
9:43 pm
Whatever the reason, Ray, he played like the second coming of Paul Pierce tonight – except better on defense. If he brought it like this every night, people might stop replaying the ‘05 draft. I’ve always known Marvin had it in him. The only question was whether he’d ever figure out how to use his unreal natural abilities. Hope springs eternal that he finally has…
Big Ray
February 6th, 2009
9:52 pm
Can’t complain about a win on the road, especially against a team that gives us the fits all the time.
Despite playing against a front line that featured the 7-foot Diop, flanked by Okafor and Diaw, we prevailed. And that was with Horford playing a light 29 minutes or so.
Marvin was fantastic tonight, scoring 18 of his 29 points from the line. We really needed that, both the scoring and the free throw accuracy. If only we could get that type of aggression out of him most of the time. I think we could if we didn’t run our offense through the backcourt all the time.
It was great watching him and Horford passing the ball to each other down low.
Mo and Flip were great for us as well, and Zaza was aan absolute stalwart for us, as has become the norm.
Josh Smith had a bad game offensively and on the glass, but he was an absolute terror on defense. Is 5 blocks enough for ya?
Speaking of bringing Josh Smith in, **that was a very good move by Woody. So was going to Marvin with the ball repeatedly, instead of trying to go elsewhere for scoring. Good job, Woody.**
The way the game ended was crazy. Josh gets brought in and does just what we needed him to do: play very good “D” and stop a shot, which he did. Bibby and that airball jumper nearly gave me a heart attack. Shannon Brown looked scared the whole time he was in there, and it showed in his play. One mistake after another…
But we got the win. On the road. We’re officially 8 games away from matching last year’s win total. Let’s get it done quickly, so we can move on past that. I’m looking forward to the first winning season in years.
Big Ray
February 6th, 2009
10:02 pm
Matt,
It’s clearly there, as we’ve seen the switch get flipped on this year. I no longer question the talent. What I question NOW, is the offensive design. All too odd that Marvin shows more in a game where the offense isn’t run exclusively through the backcourt.
We are seeing so much more from our frontcourt with Joe out, and I’m not blaming Joe…I’m blaming design (another way of stickin’ it to you-know-who). Seems to me that we just won two games on the road without Joe, and both times…it was due in large part to getting the ball to our forwards. This should be telling the team AND the coaching staff something.
Run the offense through the frontcourt. This will allow the guards better opportunities to score.
Art Vandelay
February 6th, 2009
11:03 pm
If the Hawks give up Al Horford in ANY trade, especially one for a guy as iffy as Stoudamire, I’m turning in my fan card after 30 years. He’s the heart and soul of this team, and shouldn’t even be a topic of discussion. If we can’t get a solid big man to help him down low without giving up core components of the team, then we should just dance with what brung us and hope to win a series in the playoffs. This team is not an Amare Stoudamire away from being a championship contender. We’re getting there, but we have more holes to fill than that — it’s not worth mortgaging our future for an above-average big man who plays like a small forward.
doc
February 6th, 2009
11:09 pm
preach to the choir ray. looking forward to seeing the guys tomorrow as i have missed the last three games due to being out of town. pretzel time in the big city.
Ariose
February 6th, 2009
11:34 pm
We can Manage with our Bigs this season and still make it to the second round. How abour we solve a smaller simpler problem first……..MIKE MILLER!!!!!!!
LOL, but seriously……just lookat at their ages Smooove is four yyears younger and better defensively. He plays the same postition and he is nowhere NEAR his prime. Once he Fixes his jumpsot, he will be prety much unstopable…….he’s already pretty darn good right now.
We’ve already got him locked up for the next five years……we’ve been through the struggles with him, why let someone else reap the benefits of a more finished product? The same line of thinking goes for all of the young guys on our roster……they’re all pretty good already.
Now lets look at injuries:
S.T.A.T: Two Surgically repaired knees(Microfracture surgery…….missed most of 06-07 season)
J-Smoove: Quad injury(Missed one game in 07-08 as a result) And 12 games this season with a High ankle Sprain
Smoove OBVIOUSLY Jumps higher too lol…
~Sir Links A Lot~
HB Ando
February 7th, 2009
12:24 am
doc, how can you look forward to seeing “the guys” if I’m not going (heh heh)?
Nice win tonight. After a truly bad January, the Hawks have taken two road wins, without JJ, against inferior teams. Wait, hold on, this isn’t a back-handed compliment. These two games are a sign of maturity and validation for this years’ team. These are the kind of games pretenders lose. There is definite value in the Hawks “learning” how to win without JJ. To do so with a less than dominant outing from Horford, compounded by the production of the Bobcats’ front line, speaks volumes. Of course I’m sure the Bob’s are wondering how their whole team shot only 8 more total free throws (28-20) than Marvin Williams, playing on their home floor. But it should be a reminder to folks who get bent out of shape when they think the Hawks get a raw deal from the officials, in any particular game. These things have a way of working themselves out, over the course of an 82-game season.
I don’t want to get too deep into the Stoudamire (sp?) discussion here. We’re going to do some more trade talk in the coming week. But my gut tells me we won’t be involved in any Amar’e (really, was the addition of the apostrophe necessary?) trades. Trading Marvin for anyone other than another compelling player, also on a rookie contract, doesn’t make any sense. Whatever you think about him, he’s worth more than his base-year salary, which will be his cap number. And I don’t see any way we give up any two of Marvin, Josh or Horford.
I will say that Stoudamire is a complex player to assess. Folks here who are minimizing his physical skills seem a little uneducated. He may be the most dominant finisher, in traffic, in the league. But questions about his defensive commitment, his seeming fascination with being a small forward (not unlike Josh Smith) and how he fits in from a chemistry standpoint are seemingly valid. And I don’t think any of us know the answers. At the end of the day, I think he’s a guy the Hawks don’t take a run at.
One last thing, I don’t care how well Marvin plays, the idea that he’ll ever approach the elevated level of dominance, AT HIS POSITION, as Chris Paul, thus justifying Billy Knight’s decision to draft him, is sheer lunacy. Not gonna happen.
Not gonna happen………..
OK, really the last comment: what ever happened to the last defenders of Shelden Williams? Crickets…………………….One of the worst top-five picks ever. Not because he failed to live up to expectations. But because no one but Billy Knight ever had anything close to #5 overall expectations to begin with. Not his fault, but it’s still one of the most stupefying draft choices an NBA GM has ever made in the last few decades, because almost every other top-5 flop came at least was perceived to have major upside/potential (yes, even Darko).
Matt =niremetal
February 7th, 2009
1:15 am
Off topic, but I have to say that this is by far the best basketball “mix” I’ve ever seen, in terms of both the selection of footage and the appropriateness of the music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbqdxlZr4_0
Look at the pass at the 1:50 mark. Talk about threading the needle…
Ariose
February 7th, 2009
1:30 am
Matt, yeah i’ve seen that mix before…..Stockton is a Beast. He could’ve played five more years if he’s wanted.
Big Ray
February 7th, 2009
8:19 am
I think Ando has it down: Amare’s not coming here.
Ariose,
I think you’ve seen all of the mixes. Even the ones not available yet, lol!
There was a time that I thought Mike Miller was someone we really needed, and an upgrade over Marvin Williams. This year, Marvin has proven me to be VERY wrong about that. Miller has good skills, don’t get me wrong. But he’s also inconsistent. One night, he fills all the stat categories. The next, he doesn’t give you much. The guy is in limbo in Minnesota, and he doesn’t have the defensive intensity to do much for us.
Would I like somebody like him off the bench? Yeah, though where he plays is a question. We have Flip and Mo, who have been more good than bad for us (by far, really). That leaves ball-handling, which effectively takes Acie out of the mix altogether.
Marvin has turned a corner. He can score from anywhere on the floor now, he can rebound, and he has shown a level of aggression on defense that was unheard of before now. He’s actually gotten to where he will block a shot per game, and will sometimes block 2 or 3, in spectacular fashion (as Raymond Felton found out).
I’ll always like the idea of more size in our frontcourt, but if our three guys are healthy and determined to win, then we can do heavy damage against damn near anybody.
The key to all of this is design. Our frontcourt is young, athletic, talented, and a flat out mis-match nightmare for opponents if properly utilized. We need to run the offense through them. Our backcourt tandem is skilled and dangerous, but also over-worked and the focus of most opposing teams’ defensive schemes.
Time to change the tide of battle, and that can only come from the head coach.
Melvin
February 7th, 2009
9:19 am
It’s getting near the trade deadline and the rumors will fly but I share the same views as this SI.com report for the Hawks.
Atlanta Hawks
• Team payroll: $68 million
• Potential trade assets: G Mike Bibby, C Zaza Pachulia
• Outlook: League sources say Atlanta has zero interest in trading Bibby, who is in the final year of his contract. While the Hawks are hoping to build on last season’s strong first-round playoff performance against Boston, general manager Rick Sund is using this year to evaluate talent and determine which players are in the team’s long-term future. Factor in a pending court battle over co-owner Steve Belkin’s 30 percent stake in the team and the fact that the Atlanta Spirit Group (which owns both the Hawks and the Atlanta Thrashers) reportedly lost more than $50 million in the last two years, and it’s highly unlikely Atlanta will be buyers
Melvin
February 7th, 2009
9:24 am
I wouldn’t mind seeing the Hawks acquire Roy Hibbert from the Pacers. A young (extremely) big guy with good rebounding, passing, defense and low-post skills. I think he could mature with our current core and provide great mins off the bench. We can send them this year 1st rounder which is consider to be a weak draft by analysis…
Big Ray
February 7th, 2009
9:55 am
I could go for Hibbert as well. It might take more than this year’s 1st rounder to get him, and I’m not sure they want to give him up anyway. Guys that size who are actually contributing are hard to come by. Remember, anything that we don’t see as very valuable is likely no more valuable to another team.
But yeah, if they’re selling, I’m buying if I’m Sund/The ASG.
Big Ray
February 7th, 2009
9:56 am
I think we need to get after teams that have a plethora of bigs available. I’m just still stuck on what we should be offering. I guess it depends on the team we would be dealing with (and what their needs are), as well as who we’d be trying to get.
Melvin
February 7th, 2009
10:12 am
Ray, you make a valid point. I guess Sund will have to be creative. Channing Frye and Stromile Swift could be good options as well. Keep in mind that we don’t have a legit backup 4 on our roster. Acquiring another 4 man would give us the option of keeping two bigs on the floor we need to get away from small ball.
Melvin
February 7th, 2009
10:13 am
Doc, I will look for you at halftime.
St. Bernard
February 7th, 2009
11:47 am
Has there been any evidence that the Hawks are shopping? Is there any evidence Woodson will play whoever they pick? Add Acie and Salim and two or three foreign guys to that wasted pick list (it’s a wasted pick if we don’t play them). Thank goodness BK has left the building. Now, we have to wait for the owners to find some money and a new coach. Until then, all this roster talk is useless.
Ariose
February 7th, 2009
1:07 pm
Ray, ou might be right about me and those mixes lol.
As far as miller is concernd, I figured he’d be just as deadly as he was on team USA in 07′. With Joe, Josh, and Marvin penetrating and opposing defenses collapsing, he will be left all alone on the peremeter to do his favorite thing, shoot. Then you add guys like Flip, Mike and Mo who can take pressure off of Miller with their shooting abilities……I just don’t see us being stopped.
I beleive if he came here, he would have the same effect that Kyle Korver had on the Utah Jazz when he was aquired by thme around this time last season. I know it would take minutes away from other wing/peremeter players, but wih so many weapons, it will really lighten JJ’s load and keep defenses from keying in on just one guy(Miller Would be Boston’s worst nightmare)….beside if we’re winning I doubt our guys(With their awsome characte unlike Amare
) would mind being a litle more unselfish offensiveley and giving up some minutes for Miller.
Melvin, I’ve been saying since last summer that we should try to aquire channing Frye, I think he is a cheaper Resheed, and I know Woodson will push him to become a better post defender……besides, portland isn’t using him (Pryzbilla is the first big off of their bench).
Ariose
February 7th, 2009
1:10 pm
Hey! Can’t we trade the rights to Dereck Andersen the big man from Austrailia?
Big Ray
February 7th, 2009
1:56 pm
Ariose,
It’s David Andersen. Derek is a two-guard known for his defense.
Those rights are no good if Andersen never comes to the NBA, and dude is already 27 or 28 years old, which to me means he isn’t coming. But what do I know…
I’m all about taking the pressure off of Joe, and Miller brings us another shooter, but we don’t seem to know how to consistently use what we have. Running the offense through the frontcourt is a way to take the pressure off of JJ, and we don’t need to continue trying to win games from the outside. When we do that, we get into trouble. Still, I always liked Miller. But when you’re talking about taking minutes away from somebody, either he’s in the starting lineup (not a good idea), or he’s coming off the bench. In which case, he’s taking minutes from Flip or Mo. This guy plays 30 minutes a game. He needs to play at least in the mid/high 20s to be effective. Who you gonna sit?
Melvin,
I’d rather take a chance on Frye, though he was recently removed from the Blazers’ rotation (not sure why). Swift is a dog. He’s fresh off an injury, and wasn’t high on the Nets’ depth chart before then. I don’t know what that guy’s problem is, but he just can’t get it done out there. At least we’re not trying to get Sean Williams, as Clyde would have us do. That guy is so terrible that they sent him down to the D-League, and the D-League team kicked him out…
Ariose
February 7th, 2009
2:48 pm
Ray, My bad lol……..I was just tryin’ to keep you on your toes heh!
I see your point about adding Miller…..IDK but i’d still love to have him here…..but I guess there’s no use beating a dead horse lol.
~Sir Links A Lot~
Big Ray
February 7th, 2009
3:00 pm
I’d not mind having him either, Ariose.
In other news, it looks like the Suns are in full fire sale mode. Apparently O’Neal is on the block as well (go figure). The Suns want to cut payroll and get some more youth, so they can start rebuilding AGAIN.
Ariose
February 7th, 2009
3:04 pm
I know this is crazy! I’m pretty sure only the struggling teams would be willing to part ways with their youth though.
I Wouldn’t put it past boston to Make a deal for Grant Hill or Matt Barnes that involves Bill Walker.
~Sir Links A Lot~
Ariose
February 7th, 2009
3:06 pm
The Orlando Magic Could use Barbosa…..JJ Redick and Brian Cook might get the deal done.
Matt = niremetal
February 7th, 2009
3:26 pm
Ray,
Again? Way I see it, they haven’t rebuilt really in 6 years. Trading Marion for Shaq was an effort to make a deeper playoff run, I think, not an effort to rebuild. If they wanted to win a title with Nash, last year may have been their last shot – although the way I see it, their title window closed after they traded JJ to the Hawks. Now, they probably figure that it’s time to call it a day and build for the future.
They probably want to keep Nash (who turned 35 today) until the end of the year, since this is the last year of his contract that’s guaranteed. But Shaq and Amare get paid a total of $36M next year – all guaranteed. If they wanted to cut payroll and rebuild, they should do it now before the next luxury tax calculation.
I’d give up Josh and Horford to get Amare in a flash. Due to Amare’s trade kicker, we’d have to throw in someone extra – either Zaza, Mo, or some combination of lower salaried players. But Amare is a franchise player, any way you cut it. You can gripe about his defense, but the truth is that a trio of him, JJ, and Bibby would be as potent on offense as any trio in the NBA, and it would make Atlanta popular destination for free agent vets over the summer – especially if Marvin can find a way to maintain his current productivity.
That being said, a trade like that would so deplete our frontcourt depth that it is tough to see Sund pulling the trigger, absent some guarantee that we could sign a PJ Brown or Robert Horry right after (or that Woody would suck it up and give some minutes to RandMo and Othello). Given Amare’s history, no way we can make a trade that will require us to bank on him putting in 42 minutes a night.
Ariose
February 7th, 2009
3:34 pm
Ha!……matt I don’t even know what Else to say but that. Al AND Josh???????? Thats like 27pts 17Reb 7ast and 5blks?….and lots of lumps for anyone who dares to come into our paint…..aske Emecka, Shanon Brown and Raymond Felton from last nights.
…..REALLY?……..Come on…..For a Prima donna/Ball Hog who is allergic to defense……last time I checked Steve Nash was the ONLY untouchable on the Suns roster(I’m pretty sure hge’s their franchise) and that means a lot considering all of the big name vets on their squad.
~Sir Links A Lot~
Matt = niremetal
February 7th, 2009
3:53 pm
Ariose,
First, summing up the stats of two players is misleading because it neglects the likelihood that one or two other players’ stats will increase in their absence. You don’t think Marvin will grab a few more boards per game if Josh is gone?
Yeah, I’d trade both. I know I’ll get lambasted around here for that, but I want to see the Hawks win a title. They won’t do it unless they get an elite offensive player to complement Joe. Josh and Horford will never be that player, and neither will Bibby. Marvin might, but I’m not willing to bet on it. Amare is that type of player already. He’s only 26 – just 3 years older than Josh and 3.5 older than Al. He scored 25ppg for a 50-win team last year, and would be scoring the same this year if Shaq hadn’t hit an offensive renaissance.
He’s a franchise player. He’s the type of player you can build a title contender around. Josh and Al are very good players but they are not franchise players, and they never will be. We need a player like Amare to have a shot at a title, but you can’t get a player like him without giving up a LOT in return. I promise you that there are multiple teams who would be willing to pay a similar price to get him if push came to shove. Of course, if the Suns are sufficiently desperate to unload his salary, a team might be able to get him for a lot less – but look at the KG deal if you want to know what it takes to get a franchise player.
HB Ando
February 7th, 2009
4:46 pm
Matt, I wouldn’t trade both those guys for Amar’e either. Since the Suns are looking at rebuilding/cost cutting, though, I would trade Josh and the rights to Childress. But I’d want to expand the deal to get some one like Barnes here, to fortify the wing depth. A front line of improving Horford (who, unlike Shaq, does not require so many touches as to piss off Stoudemire, and who will do a lot of the dirty work Amare seems to shun), Marvin (who is clearly now capable of a top-3 scoring load) and Amare would be really dangerous (especially as Marvin and Horford continue to grow rapidly as players).
Make them take Speedy’s contract, so we can get some additional depth and I’d consider it.
But, again, I just don’t see the Hawks being the winner of the Amar’e sweepstakes.
Another problem that I’d want resolved before finalizing such a deal is that both Amar’e and Joe would be potential free agents in the same summer (a may be wrong on this). No way I don’t require one of them to sign an extension before closing such an acquisition. Atlanta doesn’t have the respect of players around the league, enough, to have two such stars both be unrestricted in the same summer.
Ariose
February 7th, 2009
5:01 pm
Matt, I agree with Ando lol….But you guys don’t forget that if Niqe= The Human Highligt Film then Smoove=The Human Eraser. There will be a void left behiend.
*~Sir Links A Lot~*
MannyT
February 7th, 2009
5:28 pm
In the midst of the ownership trial, I’d be shocked to see the Hawks make any trade of significance unless they get to use someone else’s money
Amare’s contract situation makes the downside of going after him far too large. If you want to stick your neck out on switching team chemistry for a big, go after one of the guys that we will see tonight–Camby or Kaman. Not checking the numbers at the moment, but Zaza & AC might make that deal work. We know AC is in Woody’s long term doghouse, so it’s not a big stretch to make one of those deals happen. We might have to include Mo Evans to make the numbers fit.
Marvin seems to do better in an offense that does not have JJ & Bibby dominating the ball. Evenif the 4th quarter when he was the go to guy, he shared the ball from time to time…it’s just who Marvin is. No he won’t be Chris Paul, no he won’t be a dominator with the agressiveness to give grandma an elbow to score the winning basket, but he is a good player.
All the haters from past seasons will miss him when he’s gone. Some will also miss Zaza when they find that other teams will gladly give him a raise over his Haws salary to be their backup center.
Ando…I know you cannot get over BK, but really. The way you pulled Chris Paul and Shelden into this blog was weak! At least wait for a relevant moment to beat your dead horse. No need to reign over the dog food/glue factory forever just to drag BK into the mix. really.
Is Ray going to have to containerize your BK comments at the port for inspection prior to posting
doc–I look forward to seeing you tonight.
BWAF
MannyT
February 7th, 2009
5:30 pm
Suddenly, AC might not be such the fair haired stepchild to Woody…karma is a bee witch.
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/hawks/stories/2009/02/07/atlanta_hawks_mike_bibby.html
BWAF
HB Ando
February 7th, 2009
5:42 pm
No Bibby tonight?
Does this not give Woody an “excuse” to finally let Law get some burn? It’s the Clips, a roster obliterated by injuries. Put Law on the floor for 30+ minutes and let him make his statement, one way or the other. If Woody won’t play him, with both JJ and Bibby out, they really ought to look to trade him (I’ve never suggested trading Law, even ONCE, since he’s been here). He’s a wasted asset in Atlanta if Woody has that little trust in him, especially in a home game against the moribund Clips.
Just sayin’……..
canester
February 7th, 2009
8:27 pm
ZA-ZA, SPEEDY CLAXTON, MARVIN, AND 1 FUTURE FIRST ROUND PICK = STOUDAMIRE
Matt =niremetal
February 7th, 2009
9:13 pm
Canester – dream on.
doc
February 7th, 2009
10:24 pm
manny t expect another discourse from ando after al thornton a later round draft choice at the three spot torched us. how much do you want to bet he brings up the chris paul debacle within the next 24 hours?
good to see the guys on the table tonight. fyi, melvin made it to the jumbotron on the kiss cam. for the enquiring minds, he kept it clean and respectable.
Mitun Patel
February 7th, 2009
11:52 pm
but consider this Ray, what do you think the Hawks going to do for the next two offseason, you got Bibby, Zaza, Marvin Williams, Flip Murray free agents after this season for the hawks and the big names 2009 offseason are Carlos Boozer, Kobe, Jermaine O’Neal, Quentin Richardson, Shawn Marion, Lamar Odom, Drew Gooden. the year 2010 is something the Hawks have to really think about because that year will be huge of having all these big names stars that are in the free agent market in 2010 with Lebron, Dirk Nowitzki, Tracy McGrady, Yao Ming, Dwayne Wade, Steve Nash, Amare Stoudemire, Shaq (which he most likely retire soon), Manu Ginobili, Chris Bosh, and Joe Johnson.
i would extend contract of Bibby and Joe and work my way to save some moneys for these players for 2010.
HB Ando
February 8th, 2009
1:27 am
doc, you should be ashamed making a prediction about me, without acknowledging that you just hung out with me and Manny at the game, and that this very issue was discussed.
Yes, the performance of Thornton, and the track record of other non-lottery swings, like Josh Howard (heck, Josh Smith), DOES reinforce my general opinion that taking wings, in front of compelling points or centers, unless they have established a fairly obvious, production-based likelihood for greatness (Durant and Beasley come to mind), is bad thinking. Heck, look at JJ and Paul Pierce, both multi-dimensional swings, coming out of college, who both fell to 10 in their respective drafts.
Want to give a big shout to a good friend, who gave me two prime seats tonight. You know who you are, bro, and I appreciate it.
What an ugly loss. Nothing to do after a game like this but erase it from your memory and focus on the next opponent. Clips played their best game of the year. Stuff happens….
doc
February 8th, 2009
6:21 am
stolen thunder!
Big Ray
February 8th, 2009
7:26 am
Yeccch, what a game.
Our defense was a joke, giving up 57% shooting to the hot Clippers. It didn’t help that they were hot, either (did I mention they’re hot at the moment).
Woody should have said “no” when Joe asked if he was needed. But he just couldn’t do it, could he? Joe looked like he had the flu. He wasn’t ready. Woody should have let the guy rest, and get back to full strength. All that, and he still managed 17 points, to go with a couple of assists and rebounds, as well as 3 turnovers.
One thing that I recall saying was that if Bibby was ever out, things would be rough. Well gee whiz, looks like they were. The offense is herky-jerky, disjointed without him, and one would think that this wouldn’t be a problem as long as you have a reliable backup point guard. Oh wait. We don’t have one of those, **because Flip is NOT a pg, and Acie doesn’t get enough decent playing time to be one.**
Marvin should have gotten the ball more, and taken more shots. After watching him go to the line for 20 attempts against Charlotte, and start on that path against L.A., all I can say is same ol’, same ol’. We go away from the guys that are doing well.
Josh manned-up big time on the boards, and got some nice blocks, but it wasn’t going to be enough. He ended up shooting over 50% from the field again, but also matched Joe with 3 turnovers. Man, has he got to improve that free throw shooting…
Acie didn’t play spectacularly, but he wasn’t bad, either. Didn’t shoot well, but collected 8 points and 6 assists, with 2 turnovers (yes, that’s a 3-to-1 ratio). He did look out of sync with the team defensively at times, but that can be improved with…oh, do I really have to say it? One thing is for certain – nobody ran him into the ground. Baron Davis and Eric Gordon had pedestrian numbers between them, combining for 24 points and 11 assists. Say what you want, but that’s decent individual defense. And Acie certainly played better than Flip did. As others have already mentioned, he had the “best” +/- rating of all the starters, for what that’s worth. I’d like to see him in this role for a second or third game though, as that would give us a better idea of what he’s capable of.
Bottom line: we got outscored in every quarter, and the energy was often not there.
Highlights include dunks by Marvin and Josh, blocks by Josh (rejecting a Thornton dunk attempt), and that’s about it…
Big Ray
February 8th, 2009
7:41 am
Doc,
That would be the entire idea behind your post. What’s the matter, you short on thunder these days? Heh, heh, heh…
MannyT,
So Ando can’t get over BK, and you can’t get over Ando not getting over BK. Talk about a vicious cycle, forever perpetuated by the kettle yelling at the pot….gotta love it:).
Matt,
I agree about Stoudamire. He’s a franchise level player. But I have a hard time with the specs of your trade. I mean, should we drop pants and grab ankles for Robert Sarver AGAIN? The trio of Bibby, JJ, and Stoudamire would certainly be enough to compete VERY well. But as you say, those guys would be averaging low 40s in minutes played per game, and we CANNOT count on Woody to play the bench worth anything.
I don’t know dude, I’m always tantalized by the idea of adding a guy like Stoudamire. But letting Josh and Al go for him….I think that’s akin to the aforementioned analogy.
By the way, you’re right. Phoenix hasn’t rebuilt in that long, I was exaggerating, because I felt like they might as well have been rebuilding when D’Antoni left…The trade for Shaq was definitely to make a deeper run (but he was not even used properly), and I also feel that it was a reaction to the Lakers picking up Gasol. They built a different offense around Shaq, now they’re shopping him (apparently). But again, you’re more accurate on your take.
Big Ray
February 8th, 2009
8:17 am
**Sixers beat the Heat** last night. These guys **look** better on paper with Brand, but did I NOT say they are MORE DANGEROUS **without** him?
Talk about a good balance of starters/reserves. These guys had **9**, that’s right **9** guys play 20 minutes or more, and ended up with **7** of those guys scoring in double figures, **including Royal freakin’ Ivey.** Wow. I’m telling you, watch these guys make a push. They’re now 25-24, one game behind the Heat, who they just beat last night. Will they overtake us? I’m not going that far just yet, but with 32 games left, we don’t exactly have a thick cushion under our butts…
stendec
February 8th, 2009
9:49 am
Will not post again for a long time. Lost fire for sports. Only son of niece murdered. The Heavenly angel was only a few months old.
A parting gift for all my Thrasher friends. Yes, I said friends:
http://hubpages.com/hub/Pete-Maravich-Pictorial
“There’s a place…where I can go…when I feel low…when I feel blue…when I’m alone.” The Beatles.
God bless.
doc
February 8th, 2009
10:08 am
ray been saying that a long time about the sixers, they gelled late last year. some think they arent our boys concern. i think they are along with the pistons and miami. dont know if there are any other teams with the will to try and chase us down unless there is a complete collapse by our guys.
Matt = niremetal
February 8th, 2009
12:10 pm
Hey, if we can trade Josh, Speedy, and change to get him, I’d be fine with that. But something tells me that the Suns won’t be willing to take on both of their contracts for next year. Even if they were, some team will most definitely offer them a better deal. My suspicion is that we would have to include Horford in the deal or else the Suns will take their business elsewhere.
I doubt the Suns will trade Amar’e to a West rival, so that means Chicago, Miami, and Detroit will make the hardest run at him, if you believe the rumors. Let’s look at how this would look from the Suns’ perspective. Miami could do it just by giving up Marion. My suspicion is that this is the most likely trade, assuming that the Suns would consider bringing Marion back even for a few months just a year after they traded him. But this trade would clear all of Amare’s cap space as of the end of this season.
Otherwise, Detroit could trade Iverson’s expiring contract in exchange for Amare and Grant Hill (whose contract is also up at the end of the year). Again, that would clear the entirety of Amare’s cap space at the end of the year. Alternatively, the Pistons could send the expiring contract of Rasheed plus Kwame Brown (who has a player option for next year). That would mean that, at worst, the Suns would have to pay Brown $4.1M next year.
Chicago also has two big expiring contracts that they can unload – Gooden’s and Gordon’s. Throw in Tyrus Thomas, and the salaries match up. Again, the Suns would leap at the chance to clear that much cap space – all they’d have to deal with next year is the $4.4M that Thomas will be getting paid, and Thomas seems like the type of player who would improve by a couple steps after playing alongside Nash for a year.
The Hawks can’t offer them anything like that. The only expiring contract we have is Bibby’s, and we wouldn’t trade him unless we got back a solid point guard (and the only one the Suns have is…Nash). Speedy’s contract pays him more next year than Thomas or Brown, and he probably won’t even play a minute, so the Suns would take any of the above-mentioned deals before a package that included Speedy. Since Childress is currently is a free agent (albeit a restricted one), trading his “rights” adds nothing in terms of cap space, assuming we’re even allowed to trade his rights. That means he can’t get included unless it’s a sign and trade AND unless the Greek team agrees to release him from his contract. Even if the Greek team was, something tells me that if the Suns are rebuilding, they won’t be willing to sign Childress to a multi-year deal at even the mid-level exception – especially since Smoove’s contract is guaranteed for the next 4 years.
If we can convince the Suns to take Josh and Speedy or Josh and Josh in exchange for Amar’e, I say go for it. But something tells me they would rather do one of the cap-clearing deals listed above.
That means the only way to cobble together enough salary to land Amar’e is to trade Josh along with either Marvin or Horford. Maybe the Suns would be willing to take on Josh’s salary if they got a young player with that much upside in return. Otherwise, I’m certain they’d prefer the cap space.
I’d pull the trigger on giving up anyone save JJ to get Amar’e. With him and JJ, we instantly become an honest-to-heaven contender to win the East. But as I said, we can’t do it without giving up at least 2 players we wouldn’t want to part with – and ironically, the Suns probably would still turn down Smoove and Horford or Smoove and Marvin, because something tells me that they won’t be interested in taking on Smoove’s contract.
Matt = niremetal
February 8th, 2009
1:28 pm
Ray,
Hey, if we can trade Josh, Speedy, and change to get him, I’d be fine with that. But something tells me that the Suns won’t be willing to take on both of their contracts for next year. Even if they were, some team will most definitely offer them a better deal. My suspicion is that we would have to include Horford in the deal or else the Suns will take their business elsewhere.
I doubt the Suns will trade Amar’e to a West rival, so that means Chicago, Miami, and Detroit will make the hardest run at him, if you believe the rumors. Let’s look at how this would look from the Suns’ perspective. Miami could do it just by giving up Marion. My suspicion is that this is the most likely trade, assuming that the Suns would consider bringing Marion back even for a few months just a year after they traded him. But this trade would clear all of Amare’s cap space as of the end of this season.
Otherwise, Detroit could trade Iverson’s expiring contract in exchange for Amare and Grant Hill (whose contract is also up at the end of the year). Again, that would clear the entirety of Amare’s cap space at the end of the year. Alternatively, the Pistons could send the expiring contract of Rasheed plus Kwame Brown (who has a player option for next year). That would mean that, at worst, the Suns would have to pay Brown $4.1M next year.
Chicago also has two big expiring contracts that they can unload – Gooden’s and Gordon’s. Throw in Tyrus Thomas, and the salaries match up. Again, the Suns would leap at the chance to clear that much cap space – all they’d have to deal with next year is the $4.4M that Thomas will be getting paid, and Thomas seems like the type of player who would improve by a couple steps after playing alongside Nash for a year.
The Hawks can’t offer them anything like that. The only expiring contract we have is Bibby’s, and we wouldn’t trade him unless we got back a solid point guard (and the only one the Suns have is…Nash). Speedy’s contract pays him more next year than Thomas or Brown, and he probably won’t even play a minute, so the Suns would take any of the above-mentioned deals before a package that included Speedy. Since Childress is currently is a free agent (albeit a restricted one), trading his “rights” adds nothing in terms of cap space, assuming we’re even allowed to trade his rights. That means he can’t get included unless it’s a sign and trade AND unless the Greek team agrees to release him from his contract. Even if the Greek team was, something tells me that if the Suns are rebuilding, they won’t be willing to sign Childress to a multi-year deal at even the mid-level exception – especially since Smoove’s contract is guaranteed for the next 4 years.
If we can convince the Suns to take Josh and Speedy or Josh and Josh in exchange for Amar’e, I say go for it. But something tells me they would rather do one of the cap-clearing deals listed above.
That means the only way to cobble together enough salary to land Amar’e is to trade Josh along with either Marvin or Horford. Maybe the Suns would be willing to take on Josh’s salary if they got a young player with that much upside in return. Otherwise, I’m certain they’d prefer the cap space.
I’d pull the trigger on giving up anyone save JJ to get Amar’e. With him and JJ, we instantly become an honest-to-heaven contender to win the East. But as I said, we can’t do it without giving up at least 2 players we wouldn’t want to part with – and ironically, the Suns probably would still turn down Smoove and Horford or Smoove and Marvin, because something tells me that they won’t be interested in taking on Smoove’s contract.
Matt = niremetal
February 8th, 2009
1:48 pm
Hey, if we can trade Josh, Speedy, and change to get Amare, I’d be fine with that. But something tells me that the Suns won’t be willing to take on both of their contracts for next year. Even if they were, some team will most definitely offer them a better deal. My suspicion is that we would have to include Horford in the deal or else the Suns will take their business elsewhere.
I doubt the Suns will trade Amar’e to a West rival, so that means Chicago, Miami, and Detroit will make the hardest run at him, if you believe the rumors. Let’s look at how this would look from the Suns’ perspective. Miami could do it just by giving up Marion. My suspicion is that this is the most likely trade, assuming that the Suns would consider bringing Marion back even for a few months just a year after they traded him. But this trade would clear all of Amare’s cap space as of the end of this season.
Otherwise, Detroit could trade Iverson’s expiring contract in exchange for Amare and Grant Hill (whose contract is also up at the end of the year). Again, that would clear the entirety of Amare’s cap space at the end of the year. Alternatively, the Pistons could send the expiring contract of Rasheed plus Kwame Brown (who has a player option for next year). That would mean that, at worst, the Suns would have to pay Brown $4.1M next year.
Chicago also has two big expiring contracts that they can unload – Gooden’s and Gordon’s. Throw in Tyrus Thomas, and the salaries match up. Again, the Suns would leap at the chance to clear that much cap space – all they’d have to deal with next year is the $4.4M that Thomas will be getting paid, and Thomas seems like the type of player who would improve by a couple steps after playing alongside Nash for a year.
(Part II in a sec)
Matt =niremetal
February 8th, 2009
1:49 pm
Hey, if we can trade Josh, Speedy, and change to get Amare, I’d be fine with that. But something tells me that the Suns won’t be willing to take on both of their contracts for next year. Even if they were, some team will most definitely offer them a better deal. My suspicion is that we would have to include Horford in the deal or else the Suns will take their business elsewhere.
I doubt the Suns will trade Amar’e to a West rival, so that means Chicago, Miami, and Detroit will make the hardest run at him, if you believe the rumors. Let’s look at how this would look from the Suns’ perspective. Miami could do it just by giving up Marion. My suspicion is that this is the most likely trade, assuming that the Suns would consider bringing Marion back even for a few months just a year after they traded him. But this trade would clear all of Amare’s cap space as of the end of this season.
Otherwise, Detroit could trade Iverson’s expiring contract in exchange for Amare and Grant Hill (whose contract is also up at the end of the year). Again, that would clear the entirety of Amare’s cap space at the end of the year. Alternatively, the Pistons could send the expiring contract of Rasheed plus Kwame Brown (who has a player option for next year). That would mean that, at worst, the Suns would have to pay Brown $4.1M next year.
Chicago also has two big expiring contracts that they can unload – Gooden’s and Gordon’s. Throw in Tyrus Thomas, and the salaries match up. Again, the Suns would leap at the chance to clear that much cap space – all they’d have to deal with next year is the $4.4M that Thomas will be getting paid, and Thomas seems like the type of player who would improve by a couple steps after playing alongside Nash for a year.
Matt =niremetal
February 8th, 2009
1:49 pm
Hey, if we can trade Josh, Speedy, and change to get Amare, I’d be fine with that. But something tells me that the Suns won’t be willing to take on both of their contracts for next year. Even if they were, some team will most definitely offer them a better deal. My suspicion is that we would have to include Horford in the deal or else the Suns will take their business elsewhere.
I doubt the Suns will trade Amar’e to a West rival, so that means Chicago, Miami, and Detroit will make the hardest run at him, if you believe the rumors. Let’s look at how this would look from the Suns’ perspective. Miami could do it just by giving up Marion. My suspicion is that this is the most likely trade, assuming that the Suns would consider bringing Marion back even for a few months just a year after they traded him. But this trade would clear all of Amare’s cap space as of the end of this season.
Otherwise, Detroit could trade Iverson’s expiring contract in exchange for Amare and Grant Hill (whose contract is also up at the end of the year). Again, that would clear the entirety of Amare’s cap space at the end of the year. Alternatively, the Pistons could send the expiring contract of Rasheed plus Kwame Brown (who has a player option for next year). That would mean that, at worst, the Suns would have to pay Brown $4.1M next year.
Big Ray
February 8th, 2009
3:30 pm
Stendec,
I am truly sorry to hear that. God Bless. See you around.
Doc,
I see Philly as a threat. Without Brand, they are simply dangerous. All they lack is shooters, and there is no guarantee that Ed Stefanski won’t get them one or two. They made it in ahead of us last year without them….These guys could eat into our “cushion” about as much as Miami and Detroit if we’re not careful. Especially if we experience any more key injuries down the stretch, and are unable to adjust.
By the way, check your e-mail. Some points made that I have not expressed on the blog…either of them.
doc
February 9th, 2009
11:24 am
gee, maybe we can talk 2004 again here too. heh heh
seems like sund had us pegged about where most of us thought we would be, about .500. still possible and really i wouldnt slam these guys if it fell to that with the schedule coming up. it will be about how they play rather than if they win.
Rod form College Park
February 9th, 2009
11:31 am
All this love for Marvin amazes me. So this guy has about 6 great games in an Atlanta Hawks uniform, over a 3 year period and he is the next coming of Michael Jordan. Can we please remember that this guy was the # 2 pick in the draft. Someone actually said he is our best on ball defender. Are you kidding me. This guy can not guard anyone. Power forwards abuse him, small forwards go right by him, and guards kill him also. I will admit that he has improved a little, but being goofy is not something that you can overcome. The guy is 6′11 and falls everytime he goes to the hole. Did you not see how the kid from the Clippers (Al Thorton) eyes lit up every time he saw Marvin guarding him. This guy was a second round pick, and Marvin was the second pick in the draft, and he is a much better player than Marvin. Josh does make some bone headed plays, but let’s remember where we drafted him. I actually hope Marvin does continue to play well over the next week or so, so we can trade him and actually get something in return, because over a 3 year period, he has really not given us much at all. He should be the guy that we consider trading as he is probably one of the worst young small forwards in the league, but for some reason Atlanta fans think he will be great?????
Sautee
February 9th, 2009
2:27 pm
Hey Rod, get your facts straight. Thornton was NOT a second rounder, but 14th overall. And Marvin is 6′ 9″, NOT 6′ 11″. And the “falls every time he goes to the hole” thing MAY have been true LAST year, but NOT SO this year. And tell me exactly WHO says that Marvin is “the next coming of Michael Jordan”? Who?
And after the second Celtics game, Woody said Marvin had done a “great job” guarding Finals MVP Paul Pierce. But you say he “cannot guard anyone”?
If you have to fall back on exaggerations and hyperbole to enhance your point, then you MAY not have a very valid point. Think before posting.
Rod form College Park
February 9th, 2009
3:13 pm
Sautee,
If you don’t see Marvin falling 60% of the time he drives to the hole, then I really have to question if you do actually watch the games. You can’t just look at the box score and say he had a great game. So because Woody says Marvin had done a great job guarding Paul Pierce that means he did. Woody also says he will find wasys to play his bench more, is that true? MArvin was a terrible defender last year, and now is is a below average defender. He can’t guard the 2 position. Most 3’s go right by him, and he can’t guard anyone at the 4. You are correct about the draft position, but the question is, IS MARVIN WILLAMS BETTER THAN AL THORNTON? HOW ABOUT DANNY GRANGER? HOW ABOUT RUDY GAY? HOW ABOUT JOSH HOWARD? HOW ABOUT TASHAUN PRINCE? HOW ABOUT IGUODALA? HOW ABOUT DURANT? The point is he was drafted higher or the same position as all of these players, and his game is not comparable to any of them. Would you rather Marvin Williams are any of the guys listed above? The comment was made for people who see Marvin have 2 great games, and then decide that he is one of the guys that we should build our team around. I actully thought a lot before I posted. Tell me what you think. I think my point was very valid.
Wink from Lithonia
February 9th, 2009
3:19 pm
Amare, Horford, Marvin, Bibby & Joe would make a good starting five. Keep our rights for Childress. Trade Josh, Mo, Speedy, AC. Get back Barnes for bench.
We would have to sign Marvin & Bibby in the off season. Extend Amare next year for consistency & prepare to sign Joe in 2010. Use remaining draft picks to stock bench & find a Defensive minded center, since we would be getting rid of Josh our only shoot blocking player.
Melvin
February 9th, 2009
6:24 pm
My condolences to your family Standec.
Finally getting back to a computer since Saturday. Quick observation about the Clips game. First, good to see the guys (Manny Tee, Doc, Ando, Ando friend and the Foxxy lady that accompany Doc. Doc, you should have been on the Kiss cam two. You lucky dog… Shout out to my sales exec (Jacob) b/c my seats were so close to the Hawks bench I could have High-Five Speedy after Marvin’s vicious dunk… Forget about the game, we couldn’t beat those guys on that night regards of who put on a Hawks uni. Those guys were hitting all kind of shots. I mean if the shot left their hand, it went in. Ain’t no defense for great offense.
For the life of me, I can understand why folks want to label Josh a knucklehead. I intentionally watch the guy as he interact with Woody and his teammates. The guy stood at attention everytime Woody got in his face as if he was in the military. On the bench, he seeme to interact with Gardner the most. Also, he seem to be the only guy that wasn’t happy with the performance (just my observation). He just shook his head after ever made Clippers basket while other teammates was chuckling.
I hate to say it but Joe had no business playing on Saturday nite. He was loafing at best. I could see the sickness all over him. And I couldn’t understand Woody reason for not allowing Marvin to guard Al Thorton. Joe was clearly not himself and Thorton had a fields day outworking Joe when the ball was in his hands. Oh well, these are just my thoughts… By the way, I would trade Bibby for Baron in a heart beat….
Doc, when I grow up, I want to be just like you. You LUCKY DOG….
caz1158
February 9th, 2009
6:39 pm
Why would you trade j/Smith & Horford for Bosh or Stodamire. I agree both are solid pro’s but Bosh is soft around the basket and Stoudamire may have seen his best days(not nearly as agressive as he was). I’m not a big J/Smith fan (to inconsistant), I am though of Big Al. If you could package some of the other talent with J/smith then maybe. But not for the two mentioned, I just don’t think that it makes us any better when all is factored in.
doc
February 9th, 2009
7:03 pm
it is all good melvin.
Sautee
February 9th, 2009
9:58 pm
Hey Rod From College Park, You’re full of ish.
I just went back and watched the tape from the Clippers game (to be SURE my memory wasn’t going), and Marvin drove the ball 6 times, and never fell once (60% would be falling at LEAST 3 times). But THIS is where you’re full of it…. Thornton only scored 4 points while Marvin guarded him – once when he went for the steal on the entry pass, and another where Josh got beat and Marvin helped and couldn’t get back in time after the dish (They scored, but Marvin made the right play).
So what is this crap about “Thornton’s eyes lighting up every time he saw Marvin guarding him”. Most of Thornton’s point were scored off of Joe. (See Melvin’s post).
And for a terrible defender, there were only 2 other baskets scored off his defense – both by Randolph, deep in the paint on a switch. That’s 4 total made shots he allowed to his man. FOUR!
Pitiful defense, just like you said. And you had the gall to ask ME if I watched the games?
Look, if you don’t like the guy’s game you can say so without making ish up to support your arguments (Thornton a 2nd rounder?, Marvin 6′ 11′?, 60% falling?)
And while Woody’s credibility is low on the blogs, I’ll still wager he knows more about good NBA defense than you do, so I’ll take his word for it on the Boston game.
Defense is the one place Woody DOES have credibility.
As far as your list of small forwards, I’d take Durant and Granger over Marvin, hands down, and probably Gay. The rest I’d have to think hard about, so I guess he’s close enough to them. But have you considered that if any of those forwards played here, as 4th option the way Marvin does, they’d likely have similar numbers.You have to allow for Manny T’s WUF – Woodson Undervaluation Factor. Durant might overcome it as Horford did, but the rest would likely be in Marvin’s shoes.
You wanted to hear what I think, so here:
I think you need to make your points WITHOUT needless untrue embellishments. When you use over-the-top hyperbole (60%) you dilute the very point you try so hard to make. Everybody’s opinion is just that. An opinion, and that’s enough without the exaggerations. Had you said “he falls all too often” no one would have comeback at you, because THAT would be your opinion. When you state it as if it’s a fact, you get unwanted feedback if you are incorrect.
And that’s MY opinion – no better than yours, but you asked what I thought.
doc
February 9th, 2009
10:30 pm
rod, and there you have it. time to reconsider you options rod, severe egg on your face now. better do your homework around here than just make up the facts. glad to see many coming up to say you are way off base. if you want to be the clown that is cool, just let us know when you want us to laugh out loud as most of us were chuckling under our breath. we thought it might be rude to do otherwise.
i know as a true hawk fan you just got a bit carried away it was a pretty sick loss the other night. that we understand, just dont misconstrue so many facts within such a short two or three paragraphs nor put the blame where it wasnt deserved. maybe credibility wasnt necessary in the bush white house, it is here and maybe will rise once again in the nations capital. okay i got carried away on that one a bit.
Sam from the Swats
February 10th, 2009
9:49 am
I agree with Rod from College Park. Marvin is too high of a pick to be a role player. He has a hard time getting his own shot. The one thing he can do is rebound. His dribbling skills are mediocre. He is inconsistent when he drives to the hole. He tries to get the foul more than just going up, using his frame, and carrying defenders into the goal like he should be. He was a number #2 pick and I would take Al Thornton now before Marvin Williams. He’s too inconsistent and he disappears in games too much for me. Since you want to bring up stats, ok here you go:
Danny Granger – 25.6 ppg, 5 rebounds per game, 44.1% fg, 3 asst, 1 stl, 1 blk per game
Caron Butler – 20.4 ppg, 5.7 rebounds
Rashard Lewis – 18.6 ppg, 5.9 rebounds 41.5% 3pt fg %
Andre Iguodala – 17.8 ppg, 6.1 rebounds, 47.3% fg
Richard Jefferson – 17.5 ppg, 4.8 rebounds
Where’s Marvin? In due time, give me a second.
Gerald Wallace, 16 ppg, 7.4 rebounds, 46% fg
Oh wow, Josh Smith drafted 13 spots lower, 16 ppg, 7 rpg, 1 stl, 1 blk
Charlie Villanueva – 15.6 ppg, 6.6 rebounds, 46.1% fg
Luol Deng – 14.7 ppg, 6.2 rebounds, 1 steal
BORIS DIAW – 14.5 ppg, 6.6 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 steal
and finally Marvin Williams – 14.2 ppg, 6.5 rebounds, 46.3% fg, 81% free throw, we picked him #2 to shoot 81% free throws. Now watch this:
How much of a diffence is 14.2 ppg, and 6.5 rebounds from 13.7 ppg and 5 rebounds? That’s Thaddeus Young’s stats. Don’t try to call people clowns and bring up stats. I will make a clown out of you. Marvin is mediocre, if that. I just gave you 10 forwards that are statistically as good or better.
Sam from the Swats
February 10th, 2009
10:11 am
Oh I forgot Kevin Durant 25.6 ppg and 6 rebounds. That folks are stats from a guy that was picked number #2.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 10th, 2009
10:14 am
Marvin didn’t ask to be picked #2. I criticize his game as much as anyone, and I’m not disputing any of the stats listed above by Rod and Sam, but it’s not fair to ask him to live up to a draft position he didn’t create. Billy Knight is the one who should be held accountable for that. It’s not like he would have been any better or worse if he was picked in the mid-teens like Josh Smith or Danny Granger.
Rod form College Park
February 10th, 2009
10:42 am
Doc and Sautee,
I’m full of ish? I’ve got egg on my face? Halarious. First of all if we want to talk about credibility, Sautee states that he would only take Durant, Granger, and probably Gay over Marvin, and the others he would have to think about. Your credibilty is gone right there. You would not take Iguodala over Marvin? I’m sure the Olympic commitee really had to think long and hard about whether they wanted Tayshaun Prince or Marvin Williams. Marvin never fell going to the hole? Check your game tape again. He falls taking off his warm ups. Thornton only got 4 points while Marvin was guarding him? Really. How are you so sure about that? Don’t the Hawks switch on most defensive possesions. How do you know who was supposed to be guarding him? You will take Woody’s word for it that Marvin did a good job on Paul Pierce last year? Really. Woodson did say that he would reduce Joe’s minutes this year also. Has he done that? Woodson said that we would get out and run more, have we done that? Woodson is known for his defense. Really? What have you seen from the Hawks in his tenure other than Josh Smith making block after block that would lead you to believe that. One minute Woody is the be all end all, and the next I have to think about the WUF. Come on man. Make up your mind. Sam from the Swats, add Al Thorton to the stats also. 16.9ppg, 5.2 rebounds. I have TIVO also, and I saw the same game differntly than you. Does that make me full of ish? Actually the only point where I was off was Thorton’s draft position. I see Josh and Marvin on a regular basis, and I hate to tell you, but they are not the same height (6′9). Maybe you can pause your TIVO long enough to get just the right camera angle, and you will see that one is taller than the other. Don’t believe everything you read fellas. Egg on my face…Halarious……..
Rod form College Park
February 10th, 2009
10:46 am
Sautee,
Oh yeah, I don’t like his game. Does that make you happy?
Sam from the Swats
February 10th, 2009
10:50 am
Najeh, it may not be his fault that he has to live up to number #2 draft status. I bet you this, he’s not complaining when he’s depositing that number #2 draft money in his account.
doc
February 10th, 2009
12:14 pm
rod, i think the disagreement was more along the lines of fact vs opinion. what you threw out there were non-facts as facts to support your opinion. there is a word to describe it, hyperbole or exaggeration of truth to support your claims. it isnt about whether marvin is the man or not. if you aint got the facts then say it and follow with marvin aint your guy. again the issue was fact vs fiction, the fiction part of your game you got. it fits so well with the rest of us here at he liars table.
you are welcome to your opinion or lies but if you are called out when you state your lies as truths expect someone to object as many did. guess that was my point, not whether marvin was as good as all the erst playing his position as he clearly isnt or whether he can ever live up to the second pick which thus far he hasnt but like najeh says it wasnt his fault for that blame it on the hawks and whoever convinced the team to go there. there have been plenty of players to exceed their position and not live up to the position. ultimately one has to get over that too or forever be disturbed by something that will never change also a definition of crazy. it is also a choice.
personally, i think marvin is improving and has showed he can play when given the opportunity. gifted, but not as billed, hawk hype not his.
oh, by the way the eye ball it measurements are not facts but perceptions. nice facts on stats though.
KevinA
February 10th, 2009
2:19 pm
Don’t trade the future for short term gains. A player’s prime is usually 27-32. JJ is just entering his prime. Marvin, ZaZa, Acie, Al, Josh and (Childress?) are 3 years from the beginning of their prime. Will Acie be the point guard of the future? We have a couple of years to decide. Until then Bibby is great short term solution. ZaZa and Al will continue to get better. I agree we need a true starting center but I would not trade either of these guys. Our future center can come from draft picks and Speedy when he comes off the books. We have a couple of years to decide on Acie and a starting center. I see no reason to make big deals at this time. 3-4 years from now is the time frame for a big push for being an elite team. This is not a race, but a process. Give these kids a few years with all the bumps and lumps that come with it. We may end up with 8 or 9 years watching a great team in the making.
Rod from College Park
February 10th, 2009
2:28 pm
Doc
Nate Robinson is 5′9. Really!!! Just because ESPN says you are a certain height does not make that the case. If that is the case I am only 6′3(not). Everybody stops growing at 19. (Right). But you guys are the experts. Everything I stated was a fact except for the draft position of Al Thorton, and does that really matter. He was drafted after Marvin, and he is a much better player. I actually stated that he falls 60% of the time he goes to the hole. I did not state in the Clippers game he fell 60% of the time. Do you have the numbers for everytime he has gone to the hole since he has been a Hawk. I would be interested to know what actual numbers are. Halarious. I am sure you guys do have it because you guys are the experts. Does that make you guys feel better. Appreciate the english education, but I am very well educated, and know exactly what hyperbole means. I’m still wiping the egg off my face. LOL
doc
February 10th, 2009
3:41 pm
rod, there you go again. where is your data from on the falls? have i missed a category, did you see that somewhere on a site or a scout report or have you diligently recorded every time he has the ball and falls. you are still fabricating dude, cant help it i guess.
heh heh, guess i cant stop pointing it out to you. my bad.
Rod from College Park
February 10th, 2009
3:48 pm
Doc,
I did tell you I see them on a regular basis. That might be my job. You never know.
KevinA
February 10th, 2009
4:08 pm
In contradiction to my last post what do you think of this trade. Steve Nash, Barbosa, Stoudemire for Josh JJ and Acie. According to trade machine with espn the deal would work. I would turn the Hawks into a running team. Could Woody handle it? lol Would Nash get the best out of Marvin and Al? How much would we lose on defense. Would we have trouble scoring?
Melvin
February 10th, 2009
4:25 pm
The Wizards are coming to town and the Hawks are struggling. Just what the Doctor order. A game against the worst team in the league. Can we get the ship turn back in the right direction with a convincing win over the Wiz tonite??? Stay tuned…
doc
February 10th, 2009
4:27 pm
rofl rod. okay, i will look for the guy in the stands tonight that has the pen in hand and makes a mark every time marvin has the ball and falls. you do know i have tix for the year. bet there are going to be a few at home folks making sure you get it right tonight, too, bro.
it is all good.
kevin a, the question is can steve nash shoot the ball and is he able to hand the ball off when he crosses mid court so barbosa can shoot it when the time is right for him?
KevinA
February 10th, 2009
5:06 pm
Nash gets 13.8 per gm – Bibby gets 16. Nash shoots a higher %. The biggest diff is the style of play. You want to play up temp?
Sautee
February 10th, 2009
6:24 pm
Rod (is it from or form?) College Park
About this: “You would not take Iguodala over Marvin? I’m sure the Olympic commitee (sic) really had to think long and hard about whether they wanted Tayshaun Prince or Marvin Williams.”
OK Let’s compare and see if we can make you understand why I have this OPINION:
Iguodala 17.8 ppg 6.1 rpg $11.3M /yr 1st or 2nd option on OFF
Prince 13.7 ppg 6.5 rpg $9.5M /yr 2nd or 3rd option on OFF
Marvin 14.2 ppg 6.5 rpg $5.6M / yr 3rd or 4th option on OFF
Looks like we’re getting a LOT of bang for the buck with Marvin compared to these two. But hey, I don’t have any credibility, so what would I know? But you asked which I’d rather have, and for ME,”production for the salary paid” would be my first criteria.
You also said this: “Woodson is known for his defense. Really? ”
Yes, Rod, really. You want to call out folks as if they are uninformed, but here’s the very first thing I found about Woodson on the web:
“Woodson was known for getting the most out of defensive players, allowing teams coached by him and Brown to limit opponents to just under 42% shooting.”
But hey, I don’t have any credibility, so I’m probably just making things up.
No, wait, that was YOU. 60 freakin’ percent, eh?
And then there’s this:
“One minute Woody is the be all end all, and the next I have to think about the WUF. Come on man. Make up your mind. ”
Rod, you have NEVER seen me even imply that Woody was the be all end all of ANYTHING! EVER!
I’ve been as tough on him for the short bench as anyone. And for his lack of imagination on offense. And over playing JJ, etc, etc, etc.
But, that said, if you know more about basketball the he does, why aren’t YOU coaching in the NBA? It’s easy to try and point out times when he’s been inconsistent with his statements. I’ve done it repeatedly myself. But that doesn’t mean that EVERYTHING that comes out of his mouth is patently false (unless YOU need it to be to reinforce your point!)
And then you said this to doc: “Appreciate the english education, but I am very well educated, and know exactly what hyperbole means.”
Congratulations on that fine education (dropped out of college myself). Too bad they didn’t teach you how to spell “hilarious”, ‘cause it was hilarious to me, the irony of that misspelling. You might also check on “committee”.
And I don’t make a habit out of pointing out misspellings, but YOU made the point of mentioning that you are “well educated”.
Once again, doc has it nailed. You don’t want to deal in facts. Have a good time in your fantasy world, and come down sometime and visit us, you hear?
And we’ll all be watching to see that 60%.
Harpie
February 10th, 2009
6:50 pm
Why is anyone talking about which players to trade? If they kept the same players and dumped Woodson for a decent coach, sky would be the limit for the Hawks!
Rod from College Park
February 10th, 2009
7:48 pm
Sautee,
I’m sorry. Did not know you were a English teacher. Wow, you are very talented. I did not know that punctuation and spelling were graded on blogs. If that is the case, Doc might have a 3rd grade education. The argument on Marvin was not based on who made more money, but the position the players were drafted, and how much they produce compared to him. He won’t make as much money as those two listed above, because he is not as good as them, which is my point. So now, spelling on a blog equates to your education? You base the fact that Woodson is known for his defense on the first thing you see on the internet. (Halarious)Check the spelling. Try basing it on what he has done with the Hawks. We have been a great defensive team while he has been here haven’t we? I never called anyone out, you called me out. Then your cheerleader did a cheer for you. By the way, Paul Pierce was the 9th leading scorer in the playoffs in round 1. Marvin did a great job didn’t he? I did not choose to be a coach because I played, and had no desire to coach. By the way english teacher, you should not start a sentence with And. You were the one who attacked me. Try looking at the Man in the Mirror. Peace and Blessings.
jhan
February 10th, 2009
8:23 pm
Rod/Sautee – you guys are cracking me up! Nice give & take about Marvin. I sure hope Woody is considered a defensive coach because his offense is very poorly designed.
HB Ando
February 10th, 2009
8:24 pm
Wow, fireworks in Hackville! I love it.
No TV tonight, so I’ll take a 16-point lead at half-time, and the comfort that we’re not going to get punked two games straight, by a lesser team, in our house.
Interesting to hear arguments about Igoudala vs. Marvin. I used to argue with Joe about Igoudala and Deng vs. Childress. Haven’t heard much from Astro on his old, long-standing position that those two were no better than Chills, in quite a while. When looking at Igoudala’s stats, you better add assists and steals. He rapidly pulls away when the full story is told.
I said it the other day, and I’ll say it again. No knock on Marvin, but he’ll never be, to his position, what Chris Paul is as a point guard. And taking a swing, in front of a franchise PG or C, is never justified, unless their production in college, like Durant or Beasley, is so validating, that they are literally “can’t miss”.
Taking Marvin, when you already had Al Harrington, and the previous years’ draft choices, Josh and Josh, just didn’t make any sense……
Sautee
February 10th, 2009
9:34 pm
Rod,
Oooh, I must have struck a nerve! I never trumpeted my own education, that was YOU that did that. So THAT’s what brought on any discussion of misspellings.
“I did not know that punctuation and spelling were graded on blogs.” Not until somebody brags about having been “very well educated”. Then, what you type is fair game, Show us that education. If I’m unsure how to spell something, I look in the dictionary. Of course, I’m a college dropout, so I need that crutch more than some.
By the way, you can’t be an English teacher without a degree. I would have thought with your “well educated” background you’d know that already!
Rod, what I attacked was your looseness with facts. You admitted Thornton’s draft position was a fallacy, did you not? Would you care to try to quantify that ol’ 60% thingy? If you can’t quantify it, can it be a fact? Yet you insist on speaking as if it is. In addition, I still maintain that the whole bit about “Thornton’s eyes lighting up when Marvin was guarding him” was total BS, since he only took 2 shots with Marvin on him!
About this:”By the way, Paul Pierce was the 9th leading scorer in the playoffs in round 1. Marvin did a great job didn’t he?” When I said that about Woodson’s quote, I was referencing the second game THIS YEAR against the Celts. I said NOTHING about the playoffs. WTF are you talking about?
Yesterday at 3:13 p.m. you said this: “Would you rather Marvin Williams are any of the guys listed above?”
And NOW you say this: The argument on Marvin was not based on who made more money, but the position the players were drafted, and how much they produce compared to him. But that’s not what you asked me.
What you ASKED ME was would I rather have Marvin, than the guys listed above. That’s what I answered to, and that would, in my mind, HAVE to factor in production v. salary. Surely a well educated person like yourself can see why I answered as I did. I noticed that you didn’t comment on Marvin’s “bang for the buck” relative to Iguodola and Prince. Too much truth, I guess.
Rod, you certainly have every right to say whatever you feel on this or any blog.
But if you try to fabricate and use hyperbole to prove your point here, you WILL be challenged. If we keep each other honest, we’ll have a better blog. If I bring out something YOU think is fallacious, jump all over me for it (it’s been done before, and likely will again). I don’t mind it being two ways, I just want us ALL to keep it real.
The Man in my Mirror said to tell YOU peace and blessings as well. And he meant it.
Rod from College Park
February 10th, 2009
9:34 pm
Sautee,
Marvin had a great game tonight. 5 points, 29 minutes, 2 of 10 from the floor, 1 fall down, and 5 rebounds. Coach Woodson said he did a great job containing Caron Butler, 9-17 22 points, 8 rebounds. We sure are getting a lot of bang for our buck!!!!!! Some dogs will let you pet them, others will bite. Think about it. My spell check says Sautee is spelled wrong. Maybe the spell check is right?
Sautee
February 10th, 2009
9:49 pm
Spell check doesn’t know about Native American names. And let’s look at the entire year when it’s over and I’ll be glad to go down your list and compare production for the dollar spent. Marvin against your list.
So, I’ll assume that Marvin only drove the ball 1.667 times? (that would give you your 60%)
Stay away from those biting dogs!
doc
February 10th, 2009
10:20 pm
good game tonight in relative terms. wiz are a sorry lot and we made sure they didnt look any better. asists up, points held to less than 100, rebounds up, zaza with a double double on his birthday, a prolonged acie sighting and marvin falls down significantly according to our marvin fall stat keeper.
rich brave the wiz play as bad as their uniforms look. crit had a few nice penetrations, it seems he is very inconsistent thus far. what surprises me is he seems to have lost his shot. still young though, very young.
Sautee
February 10th, 2009
10:37 pm
Ando, as you well know from our conversations, Marvin is NOT, BY FAR NOT my favorite player. I AM thrilled that he’s improved enough to be worth defending in a discussion, since this time last year I was ready to ship him off for a rack of practice balls.
Mainly, I thought Rod was being duplicitous in his attack, so I was really fighting for keeping the blog real. That said, the discussion DID bring out the fact that we ARE getting decent production from him relative to what we’re paying him. Not great, but decent. Enough to re-sign him? Depends on what else falls out, eh?
The trial will be verrry interrrresting, as Arte Johnson used to say.
doc
February 11th, 2009
9:20 am
rod, dont know if you saw it, it seems to me that acie led the team in falls last night. just enquiring but do you just keep up with marvin falls or does your boss have you keeping up with all the hawks. if so maybe you could elucidate on my observation that it seems that acie also blows a few wheels every game. is that a wrong assumption as i dont have the actual figures and it is just a guess? for minutes played it seems his fall rate is higher than marvin’s. did you notice on one fall when he didnt get up quick enough woody as all over him? woody must really appreciate you keeping an eye on this so he can dole out the necessary punishment when it is deserved. also wondered if you have a category for assisted falls like when pushed or maybe it is just a ratio of assisted to unassisted falls. i also know you were real proud of marvin last night when he did a coast to coast run with the ball and didnt fall even when pushed under the basket. he did get to the foul line and missed one of them. i was thinking of you on that play.
rod, you have really added a new dimension of complexity to watching games. team leaders on falls, my guess is marvin, acie, solo and zaza rank right up there, no? just a guess, suspicion, impression, perception, no facts. you are the guy with those.
HOMEGROWN aka E.J.
February 11th, 2009
9:22 am
Good win for the home team. Anytime Woodrow can find time to rest the starters then it is all good with me. What’s up to doc, MannyT AstroJoe Sautee, Ray and Ando, I have missed a couple of games but I will try and make the next one. Pretzels for everyone. (or just me we’ll see how it goes) he he he
Big Ray
February 11th, 2009
3:06 pm
Hey guys.
I see things are hot and poppin’ as usual. Missed out on the Wiz game and some blog battles, but some things are just way more important (any day).
I see the opinions on Acie Law are as differing as always. All I ever asked was that the man get sufficient burn to help him develop. You know, 15-20 mpg or something. I agree that his jumper needs some work and I’m not all that interested in talking about why it needs work, although I think that should be obvious. All I can say on that end is that he was lights out in college and during this preseason. Hmmmmm….But bro-man came out nicely against the Clips and moreso against the Wiz. 11 points, 7 assists, 0 turnovers in 15 minutes? Gee, think he could get 15 minutes a night?
I agree that you don’t change the entire offense for one guy. Oh wait a minute….isn’t that precisely what Woody said he’d do for Bibby last year? Hmmmmmm. I guess things like this DO happen after all. Oh yes, I remember the exact quote, too. “I just want Mike to be himself out there. If he doesn’t like how we’re doing things, he just has to come and tell me, and we’ll change it.”
Having said that, Law is no Bibby. And having said that, somebody tell me what we’re going to do if/when Bibby is gone after this season? Got a choice: change the gameplan, force Law to be a shooter just like Bibby (not gonna happen over the summer), or trade him for a Bibby-like pg….
I see by the box score that Woodson did a good thing. He allowed his bench to play a large number of minutes, and played several different guys off of the bench. He also let his starters get some good rest. As a result, the bench outproduced the starting unit points-wise, and we won the game by a good margin. This does wonders for the confidence of the bench players, and will make them more effective next time around. Kudos to Woody on that one.
I realize that he can’t realistically do this every game, but damn if it isn’t good to see him do it in games where the opportunity is there. Let’s hope he continues to do so.
Big Ray
February 11th, 2009
3:29 pm
Rod From College Park,
The tennis match between you, Doc, and Sautee has been energetic and enterataining. I hope the reparte has not caused you to shun this joint.
There are several guys I would have taken over Marvin some time ago. That list has dwindled since. I’m not saying there is only a select few that I’d now take over him. What I’m saying is that Marvin has improved dramatically this year, and that there are outside factors that are limiting his production.
One of those is our offense. Marvin has in the past fallen down more times than that little girl on “Little House on the Prairie.” Not this year, bro’. He’s got much better body control. And unlike years past, he takes much better angles to the basket. Those 20 free throws he shot against Charlotte weren’t due to a bunch of falls. He’s shown some pretty good scoring ability this year.
As always, we must involve the Woodson effect. I still feel like Iguodala is a more dangerous player than Marvin. But does he get better stats here than Marvin? Not if you can’t convince Woody to quit running the offense through Bibby and JJ. As long as that happens, only the most explosive SFs do more than what Marvin is doing right now. Then again, I could be wrong about that as well. But anyway….we’re not trading Marvin for any of those guys, so it’s a bit of a moot point.
By the way, you won’t get mad at me if I tell you it’s spelled “HIlarious” and not “HAlarious”…will you?
Sautee
February 11th, 2009
4:27 pm
Ray,
Is it just my monitor, or did YOU just misspell hilarious trying to correct Rod?
It looks like Hllarious to me.
And dude, I KNOW your educational background!
Life’s funny as he!! sometimes, ain’t it?
I almost wish it had been me…. woulda been even funnier
Rod from College Park
February 11th, 2009
5:27 pm
Big Ray,
Never that. I am from Atlanta, born and raised, and I do subscribe to the I aint neva scared doctrine. While I do respect your opinion I could be a d@*# like Sautee, and say if you make a statement, make sure that you have the correct stats to back up your point. The reason I say that is because all I see this year on both blogs is how terrible Josh is this year, and how much Marvin has improved, but when we actually look at the stats, he has not improved any. Last years stats: 34.6 minutes, .462 FG%, .100 from 3, .822 FT, 5.70 rebounds, and 14.8 ppg. This year: 35.1 minutes, .458 FG%, .364 from 3, .813 FT, 6.40 rebounds, and 14.0 points per game. Now I will say that I have seen him improve his rebounding, and three-point shooting this year, that is all I will give him credit for. He is a defensive liability, has no handles, does not finish at the rim, has balance issues, is not aggressive, can’t create his own shot, has no post up game, and for the second pick in the draft, especially that draft, is an overall bust. My personal opinion is that he will never be anything better than an average to good NBA player, and I must say that I made this observation when he was in college, before we drafted him, and now. I actually pleaded to a friend who was a member of Billy Knight’s staff, and is now an assistant coach in the League to do what ever he could to convince Billy of this. He started out a big Marvin fan, but last year he finally admitted to me that he thinks I might be correct before he left Atlanta. For those who say Marvin is better defensively, I did admit that he went from a walking mismatch last year to a below average defender this year. Maybe if we wait another 3 years, he will become an average defender. I personally believe that I guy with true game, will prosper in any basketball situation, and I just don’t feel like Marvin is that kind of player. I personally would take 15 to 20 starting forwards in the league over Marvin, and that is not taking into account salaries (Sautee).
Concerning the Mike Woodson issues. If if was a fif we would all be drunk. It is what it is. Mike Woodson is not an NBA level coach, and we win games in spite of him. While I do think Marvin would fare better in a system, in which picks were set for him, and he could pick and pop, I still really don’t see how he could really be in a better situation than he is now. He is a standstill jump shooter, and we have a two guard who commands double and sometimes triple teams, and a point guard who you can not leave open. This is my opinion, (based on a couple of stats for Sautee) and I am sticking to it. Concerning the spelling of Halarious, I am a product of the 80’s hip hop scene, we kind of do what we want to do when we want to do it. I won’t get mad at you for “enterataining” either, but watch out for the Blog Spelling Inforcement Cop (Sautee), he might give you a spelling ticket.
P.S. Just so you know, I am not a new Hawks fan just joining the fray. I have been checking the blog out for the last couple of years, and saw this one on day 1 when it was started. I just was not corny enough to actually post. I guess that is what getting older does to you. I had season tickets in the 80’s at the Omni. Saw the likes of Roundfield, Nique, John Drew, John Battle, Willis, Levingston, Carr, Stinger and so on. Grew up idolizing Nique, (hated Jordan), and still have access to season ticks to this day. I probably go to about 60% of the home games, in section 105, and attend about 3 to 4 road games a year with Hawks gear on. This year (LA, CLE, AND NY), so as YOYO says, DON’T TRY TO PLAY ME OUT. (SAUTEE)
Sautee
February 11th, 2009
5:58 pm
Yo (yo) Rod,
About this: “While I do respect your opinion I could be a d@*# like Sautee, and say if you make a statement, make sure that you have the correct stats to back up your point.”
Man, if THAT’s what you thought I said, you got it twisted. I don’t care about “correct stats”, I care about us all keeping it real here. Not making stuff up to support what doesn’t need support to begin with – our opinions. If you state that it’s your “opinion” that Marvin falls 60% of the time, OK. Just don’t state it as a fact, when it’s unsupportable, that’s all.
And if you knew me, I doubt you’d say I was a d@*#. Just a guy who loves the Hawks, an Atlanta native, like you. Hawks fan since ‘68.
And now that I KNOW that you use hip hop lingo, I won’t give you a hard time about your spelling. Fire away.
And other than you taking me wrong, I had NO problem with that last post
Melvin
February 11th, 2009
6:07 pm
“The Portland Trail Blazers have made a strong play for Amare Stoudemire, discussing a package that includes LaMarcus Aldridge, Jerryd Bayless, and Raef LaFrentz’s $12.7 million expiring contract, a person with direct knowledge of the talks told CBSSports.com Tuesday”….
I wouldn’t mind seeing the Hawks becoming the 3rd team in that trade to getting Aldridge in return. Maybe for Horford since the Suns were drooling over him prior to the draft…. Just my thoughts…
KevinA
February 11th, 2009
6:08 pm
Check out ESPN. They have a stat sheet where they extrapolate the numbers to 48 minutes. ZaZa would be an all star. As Kenny Smith says stats can tell you anything. Marvin does the little things. Hustle and defends well.
Sautee
February 11th, 2009
6:18 pm
Yo (yo) Rod,
About this: “While I do respect your opinion I could be a d@*# like Sautee, and say if you make a statement, make sure that you have the correct stats to back up your point.
Man, if THAT’s what you thought I was saying, you got it twisted. I don’t need stats and never said I did. All I want is for us to keep it real here. No need to make unsupportable statements when your opinion is enough.
I, too am an Atlanta native, Hawks fan since ‘68, and I bet if you knew me you wouldn’t say I’m a d@*# .
And now that I know you’re given to using hip hop lingo, I’ll give you a break on spelling.
And other than you taking me wrong, I had no problem with your last post. And by the way, I had high hopes for Marvin, that it’s clear he’ll never fulfill. But I got over that a while ago. Now I think he’s ok for our 4th option. Not great, but ok. I don’t know if I’d re-sign him next year., without all the other stuff shaking out.
KevinA
February 11th, 2009
6:23 pm
Our guards should be the 4th and 5th option at the beginning of games. At the beginning of the third quarter the first and second option should be who ever was hot in the 1st half.
KevinA
February 11th, 2009
6:30 pm
Barbosa, Nash and Amare for Acie, Bibby and Josh. Would we run more?
doc
February 11th, 2009
7:28 pm
nice thoughts there rod. i knew where you sat after i saw a guy fall over in 105 last night when marvin went coast to coast with the ball and didnt fall. i figured it was you. too bad he missed the lay up but did get to the line and ended up missing one of the two.
btw, we have more than a few fallers as ballers dont we with acie, zaza and solo leading the way? i guess acie wanted folks to think he got hammered last night and went down only to have his coach doing the BAWFYG (yell and glare) to get him up and going as he waited for the call. i was on the other end so i dont know if he was hit going through. he also slipped off the court staying well away from woody while making sure to not look his way. bad body language. from your seats you probably could tell some good stories on coach to player interaction.
also in all seriousness, i wondered if you discriminate for when a guy has an assisted fall or unassisted fall or make it as a ratio? just kidding and really enjoyed your comments above, so on target. unfortunately, that acclamation comes from someone with a third grade education so you are more than able to take it with a grain of salt. hyperbole was a pretty good one for third grader though, agree? heh heh, how is the spelling going guys?
oh yeah, my hawk fan credentials go back to the 57 year when bob petite led them to a championship. funny, i became a braves fan the same year when they were in milwaukee. it was the year before i left school after the third grade. i am sure glad a locel med school overlooked it and allowed me to grace their doors and fulfill my destiny.