A Few Trade Thoughts

Emeka Okafor goes up for a shot….and gets rejected by the Hawks one-man SWAT team, Joooooooosh Smiiiiiiiith! Well, that’s not how it was said by the announcer, but that’s what I heard in my own head (I like to call it selective announcement…I use it sometimes when Dominique is talking).

Gotta love it. As I watched this play happen, another thought popped in my head: I haven’t seen too many of those from Amare Stoudamire. It’s not often that you see him sky over a teammate AND the opposing player for a block. The desire. The timing. The sheer effort and elite physicality of it. It boggles the minds of opponents, teammates, and fans alike. It makes a lot of opponents nervous around the rim, because once Josh does it…he’s liable to do it again. Soon. Does Stoudamire inspire such feelings in opponents? By the way, if you’re miffed that I’m not spelling the guy’s name “right”, I reserve the right not to. After all, what can you expect from a hack?

Early and mid February is always a fun time if you follow the trade rumors. I swear it’s more about the anticipation than anything else. Yet every year, something happens that changes things. Really changes things. If not for the whole league, or one of the conferences, then at least for a couple of teams. Last year was a dominoe effect out West, the likes of which has not been seen in some time. One team made great strides. Two others have found themselves either in limbo, or on a downward spiral. What will this year’s trade deadline frenzy bring?

As most of you already know, Al Horford and Josh Smith have been the most oft-mentioned names on the subject of trade here in Hawksville. Well, lately anyway. Usually it’s Marvin Williams (year after year). This time it’s Smith and Horford, a pair of forwards that you’d think wouldn’t be mentioned as much in trade talk. The reason? Well, the aforementioned Phoenix Suns power forward of course-Mr. Stoudamire. The question is simple. What would we or should we give up to get this guy? Some people have advocated throwing everything at the Suns but the kitchen sink (and maybe that, too). Of course, we’ve just about done this once already, but that’s another story. Others say Stoudamire isn’t worth the bother, despite all-star status, and high-level performances from year to year. Some would say that Stoudamire is what he is primarily because of the Suns’ otherworldly point guard, Steve Nash. While this matter is certainly debatable, I’m inclined to think this is no more true for Stoudamire than it is for Marion. Nash makes anybody worth their NBA socks better, but both of those guys have talent of their own.

Those who want the Hawks to acquire Stoudamire end up hashing out whether it is better to center the trade package around Josh Smith or Al Horford. Both ideas have their merits, if you want the trade to happen. No matter which it is, if the Hawks are able to acquire Stoudamire, the situation is a risky one. Stoudamire could opt out of his contract in 2010 (or afterwards, I forget what exactly the deal is). And he’s not known for his defense. Questions abound about his attitude (though there have been tumultous changes in Phoenix lately), and his character abound, though I don’t recall him getting into any particular trouble. But one big question remains. Do the Hawks even have a chance at Stoudamire? Perhaps. But then, perhaps not. Some media sources are saying that Stoudamire is headed elsewhere, and that it will be a Western team that he goes to, as the Suns try to reload with a bit of youth. Who knows. One rumor is as “reliable” as another, after all.

Getting past that one, should the Hawks even make a move of that magnitude? Or should they try something more subtle? Should the Hawks just weather the storm of rumors, frantic phone calls, and general knee jerk reactions? Is Chris Bosh (another name mentioned in trade rumors, and amongst the Hawks faithful) a better answer? It’s true that the Hawks appear firmly entrenched as the 4th seed in the East. For now. Lord knows things can change over the next 34 games (including tonight’s contest). One wonders if there is a way to make a move that makes this team better both now and in the future, without completely upsetting the chemistry?

Well, back to the game, where we trail the Bobcats by a about a half-dozen points. Emeka Okafor already has a double-double, we’re shooting 10% less than the ‘Cats, and nobody in a Hawks uniform is playing very well, save Mo Evans. I have to add that Bibby seems to be picking it up a bit. Charlotte always gives us a hard time, but it would be nice to get a win against these guys on the road, especially without Joe Johnson. This would go a long way in helping to build consistency, and therefore confidence….and therefore more consistency.

Meanwhile, those trade winds continue to blow. Your thoughts?

101 comments Add your comment

Big Ray

February 6th, 2009
9:02 pm

Between Marvin and the Flip/Mo squad, we may pull this out yet…

Big Ray

February 6th, 2009
9:26 pm

Marvin has really been having a fantastic game from the line. He’s been huge tonight. That, and the Hawks have really made the ‘Cats work for what they get in the 4th quarter. Still a tight game, but there’s no feeling of a momentum change (and hopefully it stays that way).

Big Ray

February 6th, 2009
9:30 pm

You really have to wonder why Marvin doesn’t show this aggressiveness every game. Of course, I have a few ideas as to why, but they may be premature.

Matt =niremetal

February 6th, 2009
9:43 pm

Whatever the reason, Ray, he played like the second coming of Paul Pierce tonight – except better on defense. If he brought it like this every night, people might stop replaying the ‘05 draft. I’ve always known Marvin had it in him. The only question was whether he’d ever figure out how to use his unreal natural abilities. Hope springs eternal that he finally has…

Big Ray

February 6th, 2009
9:52 pm

Can’t complain about a win on the road, especially against a team that gives us the fits all the time.

Despite playing against a front line that featured the 7-foot Diop, flanked by Okafor and Diaw, we prevailed. And that was with Horford playing a light 29 minutes or so.

Marvin was fantastic tonight, scoring 18 of his 29 points from the line. We really needed that, both the scoring and the free throw accuracy. If only we could get that type of aggression out of him most of the time. I think we could if we didn’t run our offense through the backcourt all the time.

It was great watching him and Horford passing the ball to each other down low.

Mo and Flip were great for us as well, and Zaza was aan absolute stalwart for us, as has become the norm.

Josh Smith had a bad game offensively and on the glass, but he was an absolute terror on defense. Is 5 blocks enough for ya?

Speaking of bringing Josh Smith in, **that was a very good move by Woody. So was going to Marvin with the ball repeatedly, instead of trying to go elsewhere for scoring. Good job, Woody.**

The way the game ended was crazy. Josh gets brought in and does just what we needed him to do: play very good “D” and stop a shot, which he did. Bibby and that airball jumper nearly gave me a heart attack. Shannon Brown looked scared the whole time he was in there, and it showed in his play. One mistake after another…

But we got the win. On the road. We’re officially 8 games away from matching last year’s win total. Let’s get it done quickly, so we can move on past that. I’m looking forward to the first winning season in years.

Big Ray

February 6th, 2009
10:02 pm

Matt,

It’s clearly there, as we’ve seen the switch get flipped on this year. I no longer question the talent. What I question NOW, is the offensive design. All too odd that Marvin shows more in a game where the offense isn’t run exclusively through the backcourt.

We are seeing so much more from our frontcourt with Joe out, and I’m not blaming Joe…I’m blaming design (another way of stickin’ it to you-know-who). Seems to me that we just won two games on the road without Joe, and both times…it was due in large part to getting the ball to our forwards. This should be telling the team AND the coaching staff something.

Run the offense through the frontcourt. This will allow the guards better opportunities to score.

Art Vandelay

February 6th, 2009
11:03 pm

If the Hawks give up Al Horford in ANY trade, especially one for a guy as iffy as Stoudamire, I’m turning in my fan card after 30 years. He’s the heart and soul of this team, and shouldn’t even be a topic of discussion. If we can’t get a solid big man to help him down low without giving up core components of the team, then we should just dance with what brung us and hope to win a series in the playoffs. This team is not an Amare Stoudamire away from being a championship contender. We’re getting there, but we have more holes to fill than that — it’s not worth mortgaging our future for an above-average big man who plays like a small forward.

doc

February 6th, 2009
11:09 pm

preach to the choir ray. looking forward to seeing the guys tomorrow as i have missed the last three games due to being out of town. pretzel time in the big city.

Ariose

February 6th, 2009
11:34 pm

We can Manage with our Bigs this season and still make it to the second round. How abour we solve a smaller simpler problem first……..MIKE MILLER!!!!!!!

LOL, but seriously……just lookat at their ages Smooove is four yyears younger and better defensively. He plays the same postition and he is nowhere NEAR his prime. Once he Fixes his jumpsot, he will be prety much unstopable…….he’s already pretty darn good right now.

We’ve already got him locked up for the next five years……we’ve been through the struggles with him, why let someone else reap the benefits of a more finished product? The same line of thinking goes for all of the young guys on our roster……they’re all pretty good already.

Now lets look at injuries:

S.T.A.T: Two Surgically repaired knees(Microfracture surgery…….missed most of 06-07 season)

J-Smoove: Quad injury(Missed one game in 07-08 as a result) And 12 games this season with a High ankle Sprain

Smoove OBVIOUSLY Jumps higher too lol…

~Sir Links A Lot~

HB Ando

February 7th, 2009
12:24 am

doc, how can you look forward to seeing “the guys” if I’m not going (heh heh)?

Nice win tonight. After a truly bad January, the Hawks have taken two road wins, without JJ, against inferior teams. Wait, hold on, this isn’t a back-handed compliment. These two games are a sign of maturity and validation for this years’ team. These are the kind of games pretenders lose. There is definite value in the Hawks “learning” how to win without JJ. To do so with a less than dominant outing from Horford, compounded by the production of the Bobcats’ front line, speaks volumes. Of course I’m sure the Bob’s are wondering how their whole team shot only 8 more total free throws (28-20) than Marvin Williams, playing on their home floor. But it should be a reminder to folks who get bent out of shape when they think the Hawks get a raw deal from the officials, in any particular game. These things have a way of working themselves out, over the course of an 82-game season.

I don’t want to get too deep into the Stoudamire (sp?) discussion here. We’re going to do some more trade talk in the coming week. But my gut tells me we won’t be involved in any Amar’e (really, was the addition of the apostrophe necessary?) trades. Trading Marvin for anyone other than another compelling player, also on a rookie contract, doesn’t make any sense. Whatever you think about him, he’s worth more than his base-year salary, which will be his cap number. And I don’t see any way we give up any two of Marvin, Josh or Horford.

I will say that Stoudamire is a complex player to assess. Folks here who are minimizing his physical skills seem a little uneducated. He may be the most dominant finisher, in traffic, in the league. But questions about his defensive commitment, his seeming fascination with being a small forward (not unlike Josh Smith) and how he fits in from a chemistry standpoint are seemingly valid. And I don’t think any of us know the answers. At the end of the day, I think he’s a guy the Hawks don’t take a run at.

One last thing, I don’t care how well Marvin plays, the idea that he’ll ever approach the elevated level of dominance, AT HIS POSITION, as Chris Paul, thus justifying Billy Knight’s decision to draft him, is sheer lunacy. Not gonna happen.

Not gonna happen………..

OK, really the last comment: what ever happened to the last defenders of Shelden Williams? Crickets…………………….One of the worst top-five picks ever. Not because he failed to live up to expectations. But because no one but Billy Knight ever had anything close to #5 overall expectations to begin with. Not his fault, but it’s still one of the most stupefying draft choices an NBA GM has ever made in the last few decades, because almost every other top-5 flop came at least was perceived to have major upside/potential (yes, even Darko).

Matt =niremetal

February 7th, 2009
1:15 am

Off topic, but I have to say that this is by far the best basketball “mix” I’ve ever seen, in terms of both the selection of footage and the appropriateness of the music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbqdxlZr4_0

Look at the pass at the 1:50 mark. Talk about threading the needle…

Ariose

February 7th, 2009
1:30 am

Matt, yeah i’ve seen that mix before…..Stockton is a Beast. He could’ve played five more years if he’s wanted.

Big Ray

February 7th, 2009
8:19 am

I think Ando has it down: Amare’s not coming here.

Ariose,

I think you’ve seen all of the mixes. Even the ones not available yet, lol!

There was a time that I thought Mike Miller was someone we really needed, and an upgrade over Marvin Williams. This year, Marvin has proven me to be VERY wrong about that. Miller has good skills, don’t get me wrong. But he’s also inconsistent. One night, he fills all the stat categories. The next, he doesn’t give you much. The guy is in limbo in Minnesota, and he doesn’t have the defensive intensity to do much for us.

Would I like somebody like him off the bench? Yeah, though where he plays is a question. We have Flip and Mo, who have been more good than bad for us (by far, really). That leaves ball-handling, which effectively takes Acie out of the mix altogether.

Marvin has turned a corner. He can score from anywhere on the floor now, he can rebound, and he has shown a level of aggression on defense that was unheard of before now. He’s actually gotten to where he will block a shot per game, and will sometimes block 2 or 3, in spectacular fashion (as Raymond Felton found out).

I’ll always like the idea of more size in our frontcourt, but if our three guys are healthy and determined to win, then we can do heavy damage against damn near anybody.

The key to all of this is design. Our frontcourt is young, athletic, talented, and a flat out mis-match nightmare for opponents if properly utilized. We need to run the offense through them. Our backcourt tandem is skilled and dangerous, but also over-worked and the focus of most opposing teams’ defensive schemes.

Time to change the tide of battle, and that can only come from the head coach.

Melvin

February 7th, 2009
9:19 am

It’s getting near the trade deadline and the rumors will fly but I share the same views as this SI.com report for the Hawks.

Atlanta Hawks
• Team payroll: $68 million
• Potential trade assets: G Mike Bibby, C Zaza Pachulia
• Outlook: League sources say Atlanta has zero interest in trading Bibby, who is in the final year of his contract. While the Hawks are hoping to build on last season’s strong first-round playoff performance against Boston, general manager Rick Sund is using this year to evaluate talent and determine which players are in the team’s long-term future. Factor in a pending court battle over co-owner Steve Belkin’s 30 percent stake in the team and the fact that the Atlanta Spirit Group (which owns both the Hawks and the Atlanta Thrashers) reportedly lost more than $50 million in the last two years, and it’s highly unlikely Atlanta will be buyers

Melvin

February 7th, 2009
9:24 am

I wouldn’t mind seeing the Hawks acquire Roy Hibbert from the Pacers. A young (extremely) big guy with good rebounding, passing, defense and low-post skills. I think he could mature with our current core and provide great mins off the bench. We can send them this year 1st rounder which is consider to be a weak draft by analysis…

Big Ray

February 7th, 2009
9:55 am

I could go for Hibbert as well. It might take more than this year’s 1st rounder to get him, and I’m not sure they want to give him up anyway. Guys that size who are actually contributing are hard to come by. Remember, anything that we don’t see as very valuable is likely no more valuable to another team.

But yeah, if they’re selling, I’m buying if I’m Sund/The ASG.

Big Ray

February 7th, 2009
9:56 am

I think we need to get after teams that have a plethora of bigs available. I’m just still stuck on what we should be offering. I guess it depends on the team we would be dealing with (and what their needs are), as well as who we’d be trying to get.

Melvin

February 7th, 2009
10:12 am

Ray, you make a valid point. I guess Sund will have to be creative. Channing Frye and Stromile Swift could be good options as well. Keep in mind that we don’t have a legit backup 4 on our roster. Acquiring another 4 man would give us the option of keeping two bigs on the floor we need to get away from small ball.

Melvin

February 7th, 2009
10:13 am

Doc, I will look for you at halftime.

St. Bernard

February 7th, 2009
11:47 am

Has there been any evidence that the Hawks are shopping? Is there any evidence Woodson will play whoever they pick? Add Acie and Salim and two or three foreign guys to that wasted pick list (it’s a wasted pick if we don’t play them). Thank goodness BK has left the building. Now, we have to wait for the owners to find some money and a new coach. Until then, all this roster talk is useless.

Ariose

February 7th, 2009
1:07 pm

Ray, ou might be right about me and those mixes lol.

As far as miller is concernd, I figured he’d be just as deadly as he was on team USA in 07′. With Joe, Josh, and Marvin penetrating and opposing defenses collapsing, he will be left all alone on the peremeter to do his favorite thing, shoot. Then you add guys like Flip, Mike and Mo who can take pressure off of Miller with their shooting abilities……I just don’t see us being stopped.

I beleive if he came here, he would have the same effect that Kyle Korver had on the Utah Jazz when he was aquired by thme around this time last season. I know it would take minutes away from other wing/peremeter players, but wih so many weapons, it will really lighten JJ’s load and keep defenses from keying in on just one guy(Miller Would be Boston’s worst nightmare)….beside if we’re winning I doubt our guys(With their awsome characte unlike Amare ;-) ) would mind being a litle more unselfish offensiveley and giving up some minutes for Miller.

Melvin, I’ve been saying since last summer that we should try to aquire channing Frye, I think he is a cheaper Resheed, and I know Woodson will push him to become a better post defender……besides, portland isn’t using him (Pryzbilla is the first big off of their bench).

Ariose

February 7th, 2009
1:10 pm

Hey! Can’t we trade the rights to Dereck Andersen the big man from Austrailia?

Big Ray

February 7th, 2009
1:56 pm

Ariose,

It’s David Andersen. Derek is a two-guard known for his defense. :)

Those rights are no good if Andersen never comes to the NBA, and dude is already 27 or 28 years old, which to me means he isn’t coming. But what do I know…

I’m all about taking the pressure off of Joe, and Miller brings us another shooter, but we don’t seem to know how to consistently use what we have. Running the offense through the frontcourt is a way to take the pressure off of JJ, and we don’t need to continue trying to win games from the outside. When we do that, we get into trouble. Still, I always liked Miller. But when you’re talking about taking minutes away from somebody, either he’s in the starting lineup (not a good idea), or he’s coming off the bench. In which case, he’s taking minutes from Flip or Mo. This guy plays 30 minutes a game. He needs to play at least in the mid/high 20s to be effective. Who you gonna sit?

Melvin,

I’d rather take a chance on Frye, though he was recently removed from the Blazers’ rotation (not sure why). Swift is a dog. He’s fresh off an injury, and wasn’t high on the Nets’ depth chart before then. I don’t know what that guy’s problem is, but he just can’t get it done out there. At least we’re not trying to get Sean Williams, as Clyde would have us do. That guy is so terrible that they sent him down to the D-League, and the D-League team kicked him out…

Ariose

February 7th, 2009
2:48 pm

Ray, My bad lol……..I was just tryin’ to keep you on your toes heh!

I see your point about adding Miller…..IDK but i’d still love to have him here…..but I guess there’s no use beating a dead horse lol.

~Sir Links A Lot~

Big Ray

February 7th, 2009
3:00 pm

I’d not mind having him either, Ariose.

In other news, it looks like the Suns are in full fire sale mode. Apparently O’Neal is on the block as well (go figure). The Suns want to cut payroll and get some more youth, so they can start rebuilding AGAIN.

Ariose

February 7th, 2009
3:04 pm

I know this is crazy! I’m pretty sure only the struggling teams would be willing to part ways with their youth though.

I Wouldn’t put it past boston to Make a deal for Grant Hill or Matt Barnes that involves Bill Walker.

~Sir Links A Lot~

Ariose

February 7th, 2009
3:06 pm

The Orlando Magic Could use Barbosa…..JJ Redick and Brian Cook might get the deal done.

Matt = niremetal

February 7th, 2009
3:26 pm

Ray,

Again? Way I see it, they haven’t rebuilt really in 6 years. Trading Marion for Shaq was an effort to make a deeper playoff run, I think, not an effort to rebuild. If they wanted to win a title with Nash, last year may have been their last shot – although the way I see it, their title window closed after they traded JJ to the Hawks. Now, they probably figure that it’s time to call it a day and build for the future.

They probably want to keep Nash (who turned 35 today) until the end of the year, since this is the last year of his contract that’s guaranteed. But Shaq and Amare get paid a total of $36M next year – all guaranteed. If they wanted to cut payroll and rebuild, they should do it now before the next luxury tax calculation.

I’d give up Josh and Horford to get Amare in a flash. Due to Amare’s trade kicker, we’d have to throw in someone extra – either Zaza, Mo, or some combination of lower salaried players. But Amare is a franchise player, any way you cut it. You can gripe about his defense, but the truth is that a trio of him, JJ, and Bibby would be as potent on offense as any trio in the NBA, and it would make Atlanta popular destination for free agent vets over the summer – especially if Marvin can find a way to maintain his current productivity.

That being said, a trade like that would so deplete our frontcourt depth that it is tough to see Sund pulling the trigger, absent some guarantee that we could sign a PJ Brown or Robert Horry right after (or that Woody would suck it up and give some minutes to RandMo and Othello). Given Amare’s history, no way we can make a trade that will require us to bank on him putting in 42 minutes a night.

Ariose

February 7th, 2009
3:34 pm

Ha!……matt I don’t even know what Else to say but that. Al AND Josh???????? Thats like 27pts 17Reb 7ast and 5blks?….and lots of lumps for anyone who dares to come into our paint…..aske Emecka, Shanon Brown and Raymond Felton from last nights.

…..REALLY?……..Come on…..For a Prima donna/Ball Hog who is allergic to defense……last time I checked Steve Nash was the ONLY untouchable on the Suns roster(I’m pretty sure hge’s their franchise) and that means a lot considering all of the big name vets on their squad.

~Sir Links A Lot~

Matt = niremetal

February 7th, 2009
3:53 pm

Ariose,

First, summing up the stats of two players is misleading because it neglects the likelihood that one or two other players’ stats will increase in their absence. You don’t think Marvin will grab a few more boards per game if Josh is gone?

Yeah, I’d trade both. I know I’ll get lambasted around here for that, but I want to see the Hawks win a title. They won’t do it unless they get an elite offensive player to complement Joe. Josh and Horford will never be that player, and neither will Bibby. Marvin might, but I’m not willing to bet on it. Amare is that type of player already. He’s only 26 – just 3 years older than Josh and 3.5 older than Al. He scored 25ppg for a 50-win team last year, and would be scoring the same this year if Shaq hadn’t hit an offensive renaissance.

He’s a franchise player. He’s the type of player you can build a title contender around. Josh and Al are very good players but they are not franchise players, and they never will be. We need a player like Amare to have a shot at a title, but you can’t get a player like him without giving up a LOT in return. I promise you that there are multiple teams who would be willing to pay a similar price to get him if push came to shove. Of course, if the Suns are sufficiently desperate to unload his salary, a team might be able to get him for a lot less – but look at the KG deal if you want to know what it takes to get a franchise player.

HB Ando

February 7th, 2009
4:46 pm

Matt, I wouldn’t trade both those guys for Amar’e either. Since the Suns are looking at rebuilding/cost cutting, though, I would trade Josh and the rights to Childress. But I’d want to expand the deal to get some one like Barnes here, to fortify the wing depth. A front line of improving Horford (who, unlike Shaq, does not require so many touches as to piss off Stoudemire, and who will do a lot of the dirty work Amare seems to shun), Marvin (who is clearly now capable of a top-3 scoring load) and Amare would be really dangerous (especially as Marvin and Horford continue to grow rapidly as players).

Make them take Speedy’s contract, so we can get some additional depth and I’d consider it.

But, again, I just don’t see the Hawks being the winner of the Amar’e sweepstakes.

Another problem that I’d want resolved before finalizing such a deal is that both Amar’e and Joe would be potential free agents in the same summer (a may be wrong on this). No way I don’t require one of them to sign an extension before closing such an acquisition. Atlanta doesn’t have the respect of players around the league, enough, to have two such stars both be unrestricted in the same summer.

Ariose

February 7th, 2009
5:01 pm

Matt, I agree with Ando lol….But you guys don’t forget that if Niqe= The Human Highligt Film then Smoove=The Human Eraser. There will be a void left behiend.

*~Sir Links A Lot~*

MannyT

February 7th, 2009
5:28 pm

In the midst of the ownership trial, I’d be shocked to see the Hawks make any trade of significance unless they get to use someone else’s money ;-)

Amare’s contract situation makes the downside of going after him far too large. If you want to stick your neck out on switching team chemistry for a big, go after one of the guys that we will see tonight–Camby or Kaman. Not checking the numbers at the moment, but Zaza & AC might make that deal work. We know AC is in Woody’s long term doghouse, so it’s not a big stretch to make one of those deals happen. We might have to include Mo Evans to make the numbers fit.

Marvin seems to do better in an offense that does not have JJ & Bibby dominating the ball. Evenif the 4th quarter when he was the go to guy, he shared the ball from time to time…it’s just who Marvin is. No he won’t be Chris Paul, no he won’t be a dominator with the agressiveness to give grandma an elbow to score the winning basket, but he is a good player.

All the haters from past seasons will miss him when he’s gone. Some will also miss Zaza when they find that other teams will gladly give him a raise over his Haws salary to be their backup center.

Ando…I know you cannot get over BK, but really. The way you pulled Chris Paul and Shelden into this blog was weak! At least wait for a relevant moment to beat your dead horse. No need to reign over the dog food/glue factory forever just to drag BK into the mix. really.

Is Ray going to have to containerize your BK comments at the port for inspection prior to posting ;-)

doc–I look forward to seeing you tonight.

BWAF

MannyT

February 7th, 2009
5:30 pm

Suddenly, AC might not be such the fair haired stepchild to Woody…karma is a bee witch.
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/hawks/stories/2009/02/07/atlanta_hawks_mike_bibby.html

BWAF

HB Ando

February 7th, 2009
5:42 pm

No Bibby tonight?

Does this not give Woody an “excuse” to finally let Law get some burn? It’s the Clips, a roster obliterated by injuries. Put Law on the floor for 30+ minutes and let him make his statement, one way or the other. If Woody won’t play him, with both JJ and Bibby out, they really ought to look to trade him (I’ve never suggested trading Law, even ONCE, since he’s been here). He’s a wasted asset in Atlanta if Woody has that little trust in him, especially in a home game against the moribund Clips.

Just sayin’……..

canester

February 7th, 2009
8:27 pm

ZA-ZA, SPEEDY CLAXTON, MARVIN, AND 1 FUTURE FIRST ROUND PICK = STOUDAMIRE

Matt =niremetal

February 7th, 2009
9:13 pm

Canester – dream on.

doc

February 7th, 2009
10:24 pm

manny t expect another discourse from ando after al thornton a later round draft choice at the three spot torched us. how much do you want to bet he brings up the chris paul debacle within the next 24 hours?

good to see the guys on the table tonight. fyi, melvin made it to the jumbotron on the kiss cam. for the enquiring minds, he kept it clean and respectable.

Mitun Patel

February 7th, 2009
11:52 pm

but consider this Ray, what do you think the Hawks going to do for the next two offseason, you got Bibby, Zaza, Marvin Williams, Flip Murray free agents after this season for the hawks and the big names 2009 offseason are Carlos Boozer, Kobe, Jermaine O’Neal, Quentin Richardson, Shawn Marion, Lamar Odom, Drew Gooden. the year 2010 is something the Hawks have to really think about because that year will be huge of having all these big names stars that are in the free agent market in 2010 with Lebron, Dirk Nowitzki, Tracy McGrady, Yao Ming, Dwayne Wade, Steve Nash, Amare Stoudemire, Shaq (which he most likely retire soon), Manu Ginobili, Chris Bosh, and Joe Johnson.

i would extend contract of Bibby and Joe and work my way to save some moneys for these players for 2010.

HB Ando

February 8th, 2009
1:27 am

doc, you should be ashamed making a prediction about me, without acknowledging that you just hung out with me and Manny at the game, and that this very issue was discussed.

Yes, the performance of Thornton, and the track record of other non-lottery swings, like Josh Howard (heck, Josh Smith), DOES reinforce my general opinion that taking wings, in front of compelling points or centers, unless they have established a fairly obvious, production-based likelihood for greatness (Durant and Beasley come to mind), is bad thinking. Heck, look at JJ and Paul Pierce, both multi-dimensional swings, coming out of college, who both fell to 10 in their respective drafts.

Want to give a big shout to a good friend, who gave me two prime seats tonight. You know who you are, bro, and I appreciate it.

What an ugly loss. Nothing to do after a game like this but erase it from your memory and focus on the next opponent. Clips played their best game of the year. Stuff happens….

doc

February 8th, 2009
6:21 am

stolen thunder!

Big Ray

February 8th, 2009
7:26 am

Yeccch, what a game.

Our defense was a joke, giving up 57% shooting to the hot Clippers. It didn’t help that they were hot, either (did I mention they’re hot at the moment).

Woody should have said “no” when Joe asked if he was needed. But he just couldn’t do it, could he? Joe looked like he had the flu. He wasn’t ready. Woody should have let the guy rest, and get back to full strength. All that, and he still managed 17 points, to go with a couple of assists and rebounds, as well as 3 turnovers.

One thing that I recall saying was that if Bibby was ever out, things would be rough. Well gee whiz, looks like they were. The offense is herky-jerky, disjointed without him, and one would think that this wouldn’t be a problem as long as you have a reliable backup point guard. Oh wait. We don’t have one of those, **because Flip is NOT a pg, and Acie doesn’t get enough decent playing time to be one.**

Marvin should have gotten the ball more, and taken more shots. After watching him go to the line for 20 attempts against Charlotte, and start on that path against L.A., all I can say is same ol’, same ol’. We go away from the guys that are doing well.

Josh manned-up big time on the boards, and got some nice blocks, but it wasn’t going to be enough. He ended up shooting over 50% from the field again, but also matched Joe with 3 turnovers. Man, has he got to improve that free throw shooting…

Acie didn’t play spectacularly, but he wasn’t bad, either. Didn’t shoot well, but collected 8 points and 6 assists, with 2 turnovers (yes, that’s a 3-to-1 ratio). He did look out of sync with the team defensively at times, but that can be improved with…oh, do I really have to say it? One thing is for certain – nobody ran him into the ground. Baron Davis and Eric Gordon had pedestrian numbers between them, combining for 24 points and 11 assists. Say what you want, but that’s decent individual defense. And Acie certainly played better than Flip did. As others have already mentioned, he had the “best” +/- rating of all the starters, for what that’s worth. I’d like to see him in this role for a second or third game though, as that would give us a better idea of what he’s capable of.

Bottom line: we got outscored in every quarter, and the energy was often not there.

Highlights include dunks by Marvin and Josh, blocks by Josh (rejecting a Thornton dunk attempt), and that’s about it…

Big Ray

February 8th, 2009
7:41 am

Doc,

That would be the entire idea behind your post. What’s the matter, you short on thunder these days? Heh, heh, heh…

MannyT,

So Ando can’t get over BK, and you can’t get over Ando not getting over BK. Talk about a vicious cycle, forever perpetuated by the kettle yelling at the pot….gotta love it:).

Matt,

I agree about Stoudamire. He’s a franchise level player. But I have a hard time with the specs of your trade. I mean, should we drop pants and grab ankles for Robert Sarver AGAIN? The trio of Bibby, JJ, and Stoudamire would certainly be enough to compete VERY well. But as you say, those guys would be averaging low 40s in minutes played per game, and we CANNOT count on Woody to play the bench worth anything.

I don’t know dude, I’m always tantalized by the idea of adding a guy like Stoudamire. But letting Josh and Al go for him….I think that’s akin to the aforementioned analogy.

By the way, you’re right. Phoenix hasn’t rebuilt in that long, I was exaggerating, because I felt like they might as well have been rebuilding when D’Antoni left…The trade for Shaq was definitely to make a deeper run (but he was not even used properly), and I also feel that it was a reaction to the Lakers picking up Gasol. They built a different offense around Shaq, now they’re shopping him (apparently). But again, you’re more accurate on your take.

Big Ray

February 8th, 2009
8:17 am

**Sixers beat the Heat** last night. These guys **look** better on paper with Brand, but did I NOT say they are MORE DANGEROUS **without** him?

Talk about a good balance of starters/reserves. These guys had **9**, that’s right **9** guys play 20 minutes or more, and ended up with **7** of those guys scoring in double figures, **including Royal freakin’ Ivey.** Wow. I’m telling you, watch these guys make a push. They’re now 25-24, one game behind the Heat, who they just beat last night. Will they overtake us? I’m not going that far just yet, but with 32 games left, we don’t exactly have a thick cushion under our butts…

stendec

February 8th, 2009
9:49 am

Will not post again for a long time. Lost fire for sports. Only son of niece murdered. The Heavenly angel was only a few months old.

A parting gift for all my Thrasher friends. Yes, I said friends:

http://hubpages.com/hub/Pete-Maravich-Pictorial

“There’s a place…where I can go…when I feel low…when I feel blue…when I’m alone.” The Beatles.

God bless.

doc

February 8th, 2009
10:08 am

ray been saying that a long time about the sixers, they gelled late last year. some think they arent our boys concern. i think they are along with the pistons and miami. dont know if there are any other teams with the will to try and chase us down unless there is a complete collapse by our guys.

Matt = niremetal

February 8th, 2009
12:10 pm

Hey, if we can trade Josh, Speedy, and change to get him, I’d be fine with that. But something tells me that the Suns won’t be willing to take on both of their contracts for next year. Even if they were, some team will most definitely offer them a better deal. My suspicion is that we would have to include Horford in the deal or else the Suns will take their business elsewhere.

I doubt the Suns will trade Amar’e to a West rival, so that means Chicago, Miami, and Detroit will make the hardest run at him, if you believe the rumors. Let’s look at how this would look from the Suns’ perspective. Miami could do it just by giving up Marion. My suspicion is that this is the most likely trade, assuming that the Suns would consider bringing Marion back even for a few months just a year after they traded him. But this trade would clear all of Amare’s cap space as of the end of this season.

Otherwise, Detroit could trade Iverson’s expiring contract in exchange for Amare and Grant Hill (whose contract is also up at the end of the year). Again, that would clear the entirety of Amare’s cap space at the end of the year. Alternatively, the Pistons could send the expiring contract of Rasheed plus Kwame Brown (who has a player option for next year). That would mean that, at worst, the Suns would have to pay Brown $4.1M next year.

Chicago also has two big expiring contracts that they can unload – Gooden’s and Gordon’s. Throw in Tyrus Thomas, and the salaries match up. Again, the Suns would leap at the chance to clear that much cap space – all they’d have to deal with next year is the $4.4M that Thomas will be getting paid, and Thomas seems like the type of player who would improve by a couple steps after playing alongside Nash for a year.

The Hawks can’t offer them anything like that. The only expiring contract we have is Bibby’s, and we wouldn’t trade him unless we got back a solid point guard (and the only one the Suns have is…Nash). Speedy’s contract pays him more next year than Thomas or Brown, and he probably won’t even play a minute, so the Suns would take any of the above-mentioned deals before a package that included Speedy. Since Childress is currently is a free agent (albeit a restricted one), trading his “rights” adds nothing in terms of cap space, assuming we’re even allowed to trade his rights. That means he can’t get included unless it’s a sign and trade AND unless the Greek team agrees to release him from his contract. Even if the Greek team was, something tells me that if the Suns are rebuilding, they won’t be willing to sign Childress to a multi-year deal at even the mid-level exception – especially since Smoove’s contract is guaranteed for the next 4 years.

If we can convince the Suns to take Josh and Speedy or Josh and Josh in exchange for Amar’e, I say go for it. But something tells me they would rather do one of the cap-clearing deals listed above.

That means the only way to cobble together enough salary to land Amar’e is to trade Josh along with either Marvin or Horford. Maybe the Suns would be willing to take on Josh’s salary if they got a young player with that much upside in return. Otherwise, I’m certain they’d prefer the cap space.

I’d pull the trigger on giving up anyone save JJ to get Amar’e. With him and JJ, we instantly become an honest-to-heaven contender to win the East. But as I said, we can’t do it without giving up at least 2 players we wouldn’t want to part with – and ironically, the Suns probably would still turn down Smoove and Horford or Smoove and Marvin, because something tells me that they won’t be interested in taking on Smoove’s contract.

Matt = niremetal

February 8th, 2009
1:28 pm

Ray,

Hey, if we can trade Josh, Speedy, and change to get him, I’d be fine with that. But something tells me that the Suns won’t be willing to take on both of their contracts for next year. Even if they were, some team will most definitely offer them a better deal. My suspicion is that we would have to include Horford in the deal or else the Suns will take their business elsewhere.

I doubt the Suns will trade Amar’e to a West rival, so that means Chicago, Miami, and Detroit will make the hardest run at him, if you believe the rumors. Let’s look at how this would look from the Suns’ perspective. Miami could do it just by giving up Marion. My suspicion is that this is the most likely trade, assuming that the Suns would consider bringing Marion back even for a few months just a year after they traded him. But this trade would clear all of Amare’s cap space as of the end of this season.

Otherwise, Detroit could trade Iverson’s expiring contract in exchange for Amare and Grant Hill (whose contract is also up at the end of the year). Again, that would clear the entirety of Amare’s cap space at the end of the year. Alternatively, the Pistons could send the expiring contract of Rasheed plus Kwame Brown (who has a player option for next year). That would mean that, at worst, the Suns would have to pay Brown $4.1M next year.

Chicago also has two big expiring contracts that they can unload – Gooden’s and Gordon’s. Throw in Tyrus Thomas, and the salaries match up. Again, the Suns would leap at the chance to clear that much cap space – all they’d have to deal with next year is the $4.4M that Thomas will be getting paid, and Thomas seems like the type of player who would improve by a couple steps after playing alongside Nash for a year.

The Hawks can’t offer them anything like that. The only expiring contract we have is Bibby’s, and we wouldn’t trade him unless we got back a solid point guard (and the only one the Suns have is…Nash). Speedy’s contract pays him more next year than Thomas or Brown, and he probably won’t even play a minute, so the Suns would take any of the above-mentioned deals before a package that included Speedy. Since Childress is currently is a free agent (albeit a restricted one), trading his “rights” adds nothing in terms of cap space, assuming we’re even allowed to trade his rights. That means he can’t get included unless it’s a sign and trade AND unless the Greek team agrees to release him from his contract. Even if the Greek team was, something tells me that if the Suns are rebuilding, they won’t be willing to sign Childress to a multi-year deal at even the mid-level exception – especially since Smoove’s contract is guaranteed for the next 4 years.

If we can convince the Suns to take Josh and Speedy or Josh and Josh in exchange for Amar’e, I say go for it. But something tells me they would rather do one of the cap-clearing deals listed above.

That means the only way to cobble together enough salary to land Amar’e is to trade Josh along with either Marvin or Horford. Maybe the Suns would be willing to take on Josh’s salary if they got a young player with that much upside in return. Otherwise, I’m certain they’d prefer the cap space.

I’d pull the trigger on giving up anyone save JJ to get Amar’e. With him and JJ, we instantly become an honest-to-heaven contender to win the East. But as I said, we can’t do it without giving up at least 2 players we wouldn’t want to part with – and ironically, the Suns probably would still turn down Smoove and Horford or Smoove and Marvin, because something tells me that they won’t be interested in taking on Smoove’s contract.

Matt = niremetal

February 8th, 2009
1:48 pm

Hey, if we can trade Josh, Speedy, and change to get Amare, I’d be fine with that. But something tells me that the Suns won’t be willing to take on both of their contracts for next year. Even if they were, some team will most definitely offer them a better deal. My suspicion is that we would have to include Horford in the deal or else the Suns will take their business elsewhere.

I doubt the Suns will trade Amar’e to a West rival, so that means Chicago, Miami, and Detroit will make the hardest run at him, if you believe the rumors. Let’s look at how this would look from the Suns’ perspective. Miami could do it just by giving up Marion. My suspicion is that this is the most likely trade, assuming that the Suns would consider bringing Marion back even for a few months just a year after they traded him. But this trade would clear all of Amare’s cap space as of the end of this season.

Otherwise, Detroit could trade Iverson’s expiring contract in exchange for Amare and Grant Hill (whose contract is also up at the end of the year). Again, that would clear the entirety of Amare’s cap space at the end of the year. Alternatively, the Pistons could send the expiring contract of Rasheed plus Kwame Brown (who has a player option for next year). That would mean that, at worst, the Suns would have to pay Brown $4.1M next year.

Chicago also has two big expiring contracts that they can unload – Gooden’s and Gordon’s. Throw in Tyrus Thomas, and the salaries match up. Again, the Suns would leap at the chance to clear that much cap space – all they’d have to deal with next year is the $4.4M that Thomas will be getting paid, and Thomas seems like the type of player who would improve by a couple steps after playing alongside Nash for a year.

(Part II in a sec)

Matt =niremetal

February 8th, 2009
1:49 pm

Hey, if we can trade Josh, Speedy, and change to get Amare, I’d be fine with that. But something tells me that the Suns won’t be willing to take on both of their contracts for next year. Even if they were, some team will most definitely offer them a better deal. My suspicion is that we would have to include Horford in the deal or else the Suns will take their business elsewhere.

I doubt the Suns will trade Amar’e to a West rival, so that means Chicago, Miami, and Detroit will make the hardest run at him, if you believe the rumors. Let’s look at how this would look from the Suns’ perspective. Miami could do it just by giving up Marion. My suspicion is that this is the most likely trade, assuming that the Suns would consider bringing Marion back even for a few months just a year after they traded him. But this trade would clear all of Amare’s cap space as of the end of this season.

Otherwise, Detroit could trade Iverson’s expiring contract in exchange for Amare and Grant Hill (whose contract is also up at the end of the year). Again, that would clear the entirety of Amare’s cap space at the end of the year. Alternatively, the Pistons could send the expiring contract of Rasheed plus Kwame Brown (who has a player option for next year). That would mean that, at worst, the Suns would have to pay Brown $4.1M next year.

Chicago also has two big expiring contracts that they can unload – Gooden’s and Gordon’s. Throw in Tyrus Thomas, and the salaries match up. Again, the Suns would leap at the chance to clear that much cap space – all they’d have to deal with next year is the $4.4M that Thomas will be getting paid, and Thomas seems like the type of player who would improve by a couple steps after playing alongside Nash for a year.