Lets destroy the OldGuys (celtics) tomorrow! Oh and if you are going to the game (like me) make sure you taunt Boston players and fans alike. Thats all I ask. The more personal insults the better. Make it a living hell for those guys and their bandwagon fans.
Glad to see a new Hawks blog up and running! I think we have a pretty good team this year. Al Horford is amazing! (I guess I am biased cause I am a Gator fan). Anyways, Go Hawks!!
WHAT EVER IT TAKES THE HAWKS NEEDS TO GET AL JEFFERSON FROM THE TIMBERWOLVES TO COMPLETE THIS RUN AT A CHAMPIONSHIP, GIVE UP MARVIN,AC, AND A #1 PICK. WHAT IS YOUR TAKE?
FINALLY!!!! God has saw fit to shine light on the Atlanta Sports Universe(Well except for the Thrashers)…I’m starting to lose my mind!! But one thing I do know is: Wednesday 7:00pm Hawks vs Celtics!!!!:) Time to show the world what we’re about, Philips Arena is going to be CRAAAZZZYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!
It’s about time the Hawks get some recognition from the local media in this town.
The Atlanta Spirit may be broke and bouncing from one lawsuit to another – but our HAWKS are going to make Atlanta proud !!! Post Season is going to be a regular thing in the ATL from now on !!
Congrats to you two from a long-time Sekou blog reader but only an occasional poster, as I don’t have the League Pass and get to see so few games on the TV. (Hawks network games blacked out here in NC) But I get to see tomorrow’s game! Go Hawks!
I have been a Atlanta Hawks Fan all my life. I am 49 years old & I can’t ever remember a better looking Hawks team. The entire starting line is sound. We even have a gooding looking pench. This team should monday night 12/15/08 that we can not only compete with the best in the nba. But, we can defeat them. This team rivals the Hawks of 1958-59.
Well, well, well. The boys finally showed up for work. It’s about time fellas. Glad to have you join the party. And maybe now instead of busting my dome over something I can join in here and bust yours. Ha. This ought to be a trip for us all.
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well, i can say we will certainly have a little more room on the sekou blog now that we have gotten rid of you two hacks so aptly named. thank you ajc!
heh heh, luv ya, mean it and good luck and form going forward.
Not that I would be a better blogger (of course I would), but perhaps you might learn, Ray, that the punctuation goes inside the second quote mark. For example: “Oh boy, these Hawks Hacks are a couple of geniuses,” Marvin said.
Oh, by the way, what qualifies you to “break down,” anything but the salad bar?
Thank god they finally allowed people who know about the Hawks to run this. The last guy was a disgrace. Looking forward to finally having some real discussion about our team!
Glad to see that two of the faithful members of Sekou’s “family” have branched off on their own. Ando, are we going to be subject to a lot of debates regarding Atlanta’s financial status from time to time? Ray, hope you will be the calming yin to Ando’s raging yang LOL. Looking forward to the great blogs between you two. Congratulations!
I’m so glad you guys restarted a fan blog…I’ll enjoy reading you and your reader’s comments during this excellent season. With the international market turmoil…it’ll be interesting to see whether Childress stays in Greece…I know there is an out for Childress…is there an out for the Greek team?
I hear all this talk about Boston or Houston signing Dikembe Mutumbo. How about the Hawks make him an offer to return. He’d be a good fit playing some minutes at center so Al could move to PF. The man can still play.
Congrats Ray and Ando. I dont post much but do read Sekou’s blog quite often. You both definitely have the passion and guts to run a fan site. Good luck!
The main thing with the Hawks is we have to many guys playing out of position. JSmoove need to be moved to the 3 and Al to the 4. We need to offer Bibby a 2 year extention and trade Marvin or ZAZA for someone like Chris Kaman or Joel Prizybilla, this will give us rebounding and shot blocking that we miss against the elite team. I like our current team, but it won’t win a championship which is the goal of the Hawks.
Now I wonder what will happen with 3rd shift on Sekou’s blog now that the late shift has its own gig. I wish you all the success of a Law & Order spinoff. They just keep going and going like that Energizer Bunny…or an Ando post
You want a leaguewide topic…How about you’re fired and you got the best end of that deal. With all the recent NBA firings, are any of those teams better off in the short or long run for getting rid of the coach less than 1/3 of the way into the season? No camp with the new coach in charge. No opportunity to select from a broader group of coaching candidates.
*Just checking to see if new blog has old formatting rules* or **do I need to learn new tricks?**
How is it that [we don't even make the list of games to be voted on](http://www.nba.com/FanNight/) for Fan Night?
Congratulations on the position fellas! Hopefully yall will be better than the other guy who used to do this. I think the Hawks will win tomorrow but the key will be Bibby vs Rondo. Bibby is gonna have to play like his younger years in vancouver and sactown for us to win it tomorrow!!!
keys to victory tomorrow:
1. Hawks need to shoot atleast 48% from the field
2. Shoot 80% free throw
3. Get 48+ rebounds
4. Shoot 40% from 3pt.
5. Score 100+pts
6. Fewer than 14 turnovers
7. 30pts from the bench
8. 18+ assists
Any 3 combinations will get the Hawks a victory. All of this came from analysis of last season’s stats.
watch how many people come to the game with celtics gear on. 3 yrs ago, not even the diehards wore celtics green, now everyone and their grannies sport the celtic green. if you are from atlanta, work in atlanta, pay state taxes in ga., YOU need to be cheering for the home team which is the ATLANTA HAWKS!! don’t ride jocks, it is bad for your health
Coach Woodson, Doc uses his bench to perfection. It may be to late to go to our bench. You should have been using them during the indy, philly, charlotte games so that you can go to them in the big game. there is no way that you can put solo in against garnett or powe and he ain’t seen no time in 3 games. law would be a better defender on rondo than bibby, but you failed to get him ready.
Please put Horford at the 5. He gets too many fouls at the 4 gaurding garnett.
Congrats guys, good to see someone seize the ball and run with it. Now bring it like always… do you! Hope Woody can get the team to run the Celtics out of town. It all depends on how the Bibby / Rondo match up shakes out; should be an exciting game. Again congrats Ray & Ando!
Ha Ha, this is funny. Maybe you guys will start to get locker room passes etc with your newfound media position. I have been a longtime follower of the blog and have posted under various names throughout the years of both misery and celebration. I look forward to the breakdowns and will be sure to input my 2 cents. Good luck with it
“BLACK PRIX” you are one of those jock riders that i was talkin’. were you supportin’ the celts 3 yrs ago? no! but now sense they are hot you are on them. i am goin’ to remember your handle, 3 yrs from now when they dismantle the team due to age/money, i want to see you supportin’ them then. i been wit’ the hawks durin’ the 13win season thats why i can scream so loud now. not a bandwagon jumper.
As a blogger on the original Sekou blogs of four years ago, I can honestly say that you Hawk fans are in good hands with Ray and Ando. There won’t be a pair that brings more honest, intense, and heartfelt love for the Hawks.
I just wanted to make sure I got a post in here, so in years to come I won’t be labeled a bandwagon jumper. I can say that I’m OG and posted on the very first Big Ray and Ando blog.
I also think we need to get T-shirts for us persevering Hawks fans, to segregate us from the folks who just started paying attention post-Horford. I’m thinking something like, “I survived Lon Kruger” or “I remember 13-69″ or “I can’t believe we traded for J.R. Rider.”
And since this is a all-NBA blog, did anyone else notice that the nerdy disturbed guy in the new ESPN bus commercial is the same guy who did “the” Glibert Arenas video. If not, he’s a dead ringer for him. (NSFW link: http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1893214 )
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Congrats Big Ray and Ando…do a good job here and you’ll have your own TV show (like Mike & Mike in the morning) “Ray and Ando Comin At You”….from the Big A
It looks like you got it MannyT — just post the address, and it will link up automatically. I think this is standard vBulletin command software. So you and do stuff like [i]italics[/i] and [b]bold[/b] type much easier.
Hopefully this new board’s software will carry over to Sekou and DOB’s blogs — because, to be honest, if it wasn’t for those two guys, I’d have quit coming to ajc.com a long time ago!
I have been a Hawks fan for 20+ years. This team (and more importantly, coach) is NOT a serious playoff contender. We were nearly 20 games under .500 last year, never played anything close to a competitive game away from Phillips in the playoffs, and all of the suddden we are serious contenders? Lets start with an above .500 season and then let us get excited. Can Woodson!
dang guys, nice job of moving from the sekou blog to having your own. personally i have been a hawks fan since i grew up here, but i moved around a lot still managing to watch them on t.v. Now I am grown now and can somewhat affort to actually go to the arena and watch them play. Would be nice to see them make a move and get some size down low in the paint. what do u think?
We really appreciate the support and encouragement in this endeavor. Ando and I feel very honored to get the opportunity to do this. Truthfully, any of us could do this. So many guys from Sekou’s Beat Blog have such incredible talent, and we are just two of those many, many contributors from that nationally famous blog. As always, pile in and pile on as you please. The more, the better!
Marvin Hamlisch,
Good correction on the grammatical error. I’d use the excuse of what I was drinking when I posted, but that’s poor sport. Now you really don’t want to go there with me on salad bars. I’ll break ‘em all down! As for what qualifies me to break anything sports related down….nothing. I’m a fan, and this is a fan’s forum. So if you can blog better, then bring it, because you’ll only make THIS blog the better for it! Looking forward to your contributions. Seriously.
If you are going to the HAWKS/Celtics game tomorrow, you better wear your shock the world tshirt that was giving out during the playoffs. The players want us to go NUTS so lets GO NUTS
Sam, on the REAL blog just posted that he doesn’t believe tomorrow nights’ Celtics game is a “statement”, in his opinion (IMO, he says, forgetting the H? Guess not, huh, Sam).
I have to concur, and intended to address that very point tonight.
It’s not a “statement” game. But it is a measuring stick, in the truest since of the term. We should be able to measure quite a bit about the Hawks, after tomorrow night. We know what they did, in taking the C’s to 7 games last spring. We know what they did, 4 weeks ago, in about as quality of a game a team can have while still coming out with an L.
So now we’re playing the red-hot, World Champion Celtics, at home. And they know what we did last spring and four weeks ago (their quotes, in Sekou’s article, highlighted their respect for the Hawks, and the acknowledgment that they must bring their best effort if they want to win here in Atlanta). They know what we did against the Cavs on Saturday.
So the truth is that both teams go into this game with full respect for their opponent, and understanding the implications of a win. Or a loss. There can be know excuses from either team, should they lose. The outcome of this game will literally measure the level of the Hawks’ growth, from last spring to now.
Match ups are, as always, critical to the expectations for the game. I mentioned last night that the Bibby-Rondo match up is huge (something that many folks have noted, so it’s obviously not a novel comment). Both are playing great. Maybe Rondo caught Bibby by surprise last spring. Maybe Bibby wasn’t 100% healthy. Or maybe Rondo’s length and athleticism are just a challenging match for Bibby. But, again, we should be able to measure where things stand, NOW, based on how it goes down between those two.
More important is how Woody plans on handling minutes and rotations on his front line. The Hawks (Woody) have done a pretty good job of imposing their will on other teams, as it relates to matching up. But the C’s front line is one of the ones in the league that really challenges Horford-as-center. Me, I don’t think it’s the best, defensively, to have Horford guard Perkins, Smith cover KG, and Marvin take Pierce (if he’s limited, it will really minimize this point). Zaza on Perkins, Horford on Garnett, and Smith hounding Pierce, should be much stronger. Of course, that then limits Marvin’s minutes, and it makes us a much weaker shooting team, on offense. So the Hawks are going to have to pick their poison, on one end of the court.
This all goes back to the long-standing discussion regarding whether the Hawks can ever reach their potential, in the coming years, with Horford at center.
Sautee addresses utilizing the high-low with one of our young bigs, and notes that a strong post game, on offense, is still lacking with these guys. But the challenge, without obtaining a legit big who can face the basket and stretch opposing defenses, while allowing Horford to slide over to the four, is that Horford at the elbow still leaves us without a legit post scorer, other than JJ (versus opposing two’s). And we really don’t want JJ taking a beating down there, and minimizing both his outside shooting and play-making ability from the perimeter.
Guess we’ll see.
Should be crazy loud at Philips, and that’s one of the greatest things about an improved Hawks team!
Thanks to all our brothers from Sekou’s blog, as we feel like we represent all of us.
P.S. Astro, thanks for the props. But I know Ray is disappointed that you only approved of my half of the partnership……..
Just read Sekou’s article on Hawks and Celtics players sounding off. It looks to me like we are getting much more respect out of these guys than we used to. Conspicuously missing however, is a comment from Kevin Garnett….
We’re trying to get something down about that. Apparently, the program that this runs on is a bit of a guinea pig. We’re also working on some other odds and ends. As it stands right now, this blog is not in the usual Hawks Hack spot. Hopefully, I will find out soon enough when and if it will be.
Big Ray, I would have never of seen this if not for the front page link. So someone on the web team loves you guys. Oh, and you have to give me the ! in Don! because there’s a lot of Don’s running around on the boards, and a couple of them are … well … not nice people.
Anyway, as a dislocated Atlanta fan living in Jersey near Philadelphia — if you ever want the talk radio scoop on this end about the Hawks, or just wonder what it’s like to live next to a town that boos Santa — just let me know. Right now it’s pretty funny listening about all the 76ers issues, and having the whole basketball-crazed masses ready to take pitchforks to the streets because their team is waaaaaaaaaaay under performing.
Trust me, there are days when the Hawks don’t look like they’re playing to their potential — but its been two solid months of under achieving up here. Let me tell you, the Sixers should thank their lucky stars that the Phillies won the world series, and that the Eagles consistently provide lots of cover drama — or else it would look like one of those really bad street demonstrations on game nights outside the arena here.
Anyway, I think the Hawks’ game tomorrow night will turn a long way on how good Pierce’s knee is. As good as the Celtics are, they can’t replace his scoring without losing part of their team rhythm. Pierce takes the pressure off of KG and Rondo to score, and when Ray has to ignite their offense, he seems to wear down pretty quickly.
I will try to remember to have your name typed right, but I swear it makes me feel like I’m yelling at you, LOL!
The Sixers are definitely underperforming, and the bad thing is that people who don’t know it, will soon find out that Maurice Cheeks wasn’t the real problem. Did Cheeks suddenly tell Iguodala to start underperforming? No. Did Cheeks fail to add some true shooters to the team? No. And there it is.
Having said THAT, can another coach come in there and be succesful with the squad? Possibly, but one wonders just HOW effective that coach would be. More often than not, the kinds of coaches that can take a squad and make it perform better than it ever has, are the same kinds that require creative control. Need an example? Try D’Antoni. He comes in an changes the climate in New York immediately. But he also has creative control (or at least some help from Walsh, the GM). Suddenly, Chris Duhon is the starting pg. David Lee is no longer coming off the bench. Out goes Crawford and Randolph. Marbury is a goner (sooner or later). And the Knicks are no longer such an eye-sore to watch.
I think Philly has potential still, but it’s hard to say how you’d make it work. They were built to run, and then….enter Brand. Running? Uh, not Brand. Which is why I suspect he turned down an even bigger payday in Golden State (where the reported offer was in excess of $90 million). And we all know what kind of ball they play in Golden State. I don’t know how you make it work in Philly, but somebody has their work cut out for them. And that person should be Ed Stefanski….
-JK, I don’t think there’s much we could offer Minny to dislodge Al Jefferson (and it would take some package including Al Horford if it was even possible). Now, as many, including doc, have noted, McHale is a perennial favorite for worst GM of the year. But he’s no longer the GM, and I don’t see Jefferson anywhere but Minnesota.
-Tommy T-I don’t think Chills’ team has an out. And given the economy, stateside, and worldwide, I’m not sure he’s thinking about returning to the NBA right now. His owners are billionaire brothers, so I don’t see him returning before he gets the full value of his 3-year, tax-free deal.
-Josh- I agree that Mutombo could be of value here. But I don’t see him going anywhere but back to Houston or up to Boston, for a shot at a ring.
-Greg- Been saying the same thing for six months. The long-term future of this team’s front line is built around Josh and Al. At this stage, the optimal scenario would see the Hawks adding a big man who could defend the five, and provide us with a consistent, legitimate face-up game, from around 20 feet. By stretching opposing defenses, Horford could develop his post game, and Josh would see far less crowded lanes to attack. Additionally, Horford could avoid the wear-and-tear of pounding on opposing centers, dominate opposing fours, and Josh could be the ultimate nightmare defending opposing 3’s.
-Banshee- We’re 15-9, so legitimate playoff contenders we are. I’ve been accused of being hyper-critical, over the years, but you have to call it like you see it. Beyond the record, a thorough observation of the other Eastern Conference teams finds no one else standing out, other than Boston, Cleveland (who we just beat), Orlando (who we’ve already beaten), and the uncertain memory of Detroit (who I can’t discount, but who looks awful vulnerable). After that, it’s a pretty wide open field, with lots of potential playoff contenders, and no real track record for any of their current line ups. Major injuries could end up playing a critical role in how the East shapes up (one only has to look at Washington, without Arenas and Haywood, for a team who’s expectations have been obliterated by health).
Well, I’m glad I bookmarked the site last night. Looks like the only way in now.
We need to pressure Pierce on the offensive end. Make him play defense (not that he doesn’t), but make sure he has to work so hard on that end that it affects his offense.
Whomever he is guarding should take it straight to his chest.
The other big need for tonight is offensive rebounds. When you play against a great defense, you need all the extra possessions you can garner to offset the lower percentage they will force us to shoot.
And if we’re gonna live by the three……… well I hope we hit a good percentage.
Well, Congrat on the new site. I got the link from Sautee on the other blog. You guys have taken this thing to another level and that should be commended. Hawks talk should be this way.
Bibby has to take care of business tonight. He can’t let Rondo break down the defence and dish/score. Bibby has to keep him out of the line and that will prevent the fouls to the front court. In the future how do i get back to the blog? I need my way in. Yes sir! Congrats again.
What’s it going to take for AJC to add a link to this area with the other ‘fan blogs?’ Without Sautee’s kind link in Sekou’s blog, I could not find my way back here. Now bookmarked, but jeez AJC, get the link out there on the main Sports page!
It’s my understanding that they are working on it. I don’t know when it will be up and running normal, and I’m sorry that I don’t have a better answer at the moment. Patience, my young Jedi. Or so I keep telling myself…lol!
HomeGrown aka E.J.,
You’re right that Rondo cannot be allowed to play his game against us, or it will be curtains, and very quickly. However, I would not lay that task solely at the feet of Bibby. I do not believe Bibby to have the speed (and certainly not the length) to contain Rondo, injury or no injury (as was the excuse during the playoffs last season). However, Bibby has been playing good, solid defense to the best of his somewhat limited ability.
Our team defense will be the bigger factor. Bibby will have to make some good individual plays on defense (as will others…and this is something that guys like Horford and Smith excel at), but it will be very important that guys rotate quickly and accurately. In other words, proper execution of team defense will be PARAMOUNT.
But that also leaves room for another idea that some will no doubt get sick of me bringing up: the use of Acie Law. While we also have Flip Murray as an option if Bibby is getting torched, and the others are unable to help him, Law is a guy you want to use. Why? Because good defense isn’t just about staying in front of your man. It’s also about making HIM work hard on defense when you’re on offense. Law and Flip will both drive to the hole, which means that defenders will have to work harder physically to stop them. It also means that they will be much more likely to draw fouls. We all know that drawing fouls causes problems on the defensive end. That’s one of the disadvantages with Bibby, although lately he has seemed to be a bit more aggressive in that area (whereas previously he would only drive or try to penetrate maybe once or twice in an entire game). We’re still going to need his shooting, but the Celts know this and will probably defend it like crazy. Enter Marvin Williams…
At the same time, our guys have to be careful about driving to the basket, as the Celts are not stupid by any stretch. They WILL try to draw charges. Maybe not early and often, but certainly after someone has managed to penetrate the defense enough times for it to be a concern.
I agree with that thought. You have to make your man work on both ends of the court. If Rondo doesn’t have to keep up with Bibby on the drive, then that gives him that much more time to catch a breath or two. AC WILL drive the lane, and that will make him work on both ends.
I also agree about the team defence. Al and JSMOOTH do a great job of rotating to the open man. This makes us very hard to score against because they are both long and can block shots. No easy looks means the shot clock is running down and that creates a desperation, shot clock beating basket. If they make those, then fine, but it is still good defence.
Good point on the offensive rebounds. An offensive rebound is demoralizing for a defense, especially if you’ve been making that defense work hard. In some ways, it’s like making the extra pass: good things usually happen, and you can catch guys off guard. In fact, it’s not too uncommon for one or more of the five guys on the floor to slack off a bit, due to fatigue or otherwise, when the opposing team gets a fresh 24. Sounds like a good time to throw an alley-oop to Smoove, Solo, or big Al…or Mo Evans…or Marvin.
Another thing involving the offensive rebound is how to make use of it. Going back up with it is not a bad idea, particularly if you have good position down on the block. But do you go back up to score, draw the foul, or both? If you’re not a notoriously strong finisher, trying to draw the foul may be the best route. That’s not to say that you shouldn’t try to make the shot, but if you draw the foul, then you at least have a chance at two uncontested points.
On the other hand, you could pass the ball back out. I’m in favor of this as well, when the situation calls for it. But I also think there are better ways to do it than to just pass it back out, let the defense settle in, and then try to figure out how to get a shot. And too often, that’s exactly what we do. I think a better idea is to pass the ball back out (if it’s feasible in the situation…no need to force turnovers) to one of the guards, then immediately have one of the bigs (preferrably Horford) come back out to the high post and receive the ball. Then run a variety of plays through the high post. That is so much better than constantly dribbling the clock back down, only to get a contested long ball shot from one of the guards…or an uncontested, but misguided long ball shot from Smoove…
Sautee, the more time I spend on this thing, the better I will get. Pratice makes Perfect! Just one question: What is the Liar’s Table? I have learned about BWAF, now the Liar’s Table, What’s next? I am!
Congrats Ray and Ando. How fitting that you guys are the new Hacks, after being the backbone of Sekou Blog for so many years. Also, kind of ironic that Ando is one of the new Hacks after he blasted the old Hack into never, never land with one of his classical departure comments. Good riddens to the old Hack and glad to have you guys to replace him. I will be following along. Good Luck…
Interesting side-by-side of this years’ Celtics and and Lakers, and the 95-96 Bulls, who were also 23-2 at this point in their record-breaking season. The Bulls lost game 26, on the road, to a talented, young Pacers team, led by a great shooting guard in Reggie Miller (see any similarities).
This game couldn’t be more hyped, with prime time coverage on ESPN (how long since the Hawks played to this kind of TV access).
I truly expect that the Celtics players know how important this game is to the Hawks and their fans, and that they see a value in not letting us get the kind of confidence and momentum a win would generate. They know this is still a young team, learning how to win, and believe that a loss tonight could break our will and have us question whether we are legitimately ready to play with the big boys.
The great value in that thought is that the Celtics will have no excuses if the Hawks win, and our confidence will rise to unprecedented levels, giving the organization a real opportunity for major momentum going into the new year.
There truly is a lot riding on this game, psychologically.
They have to get it done on the boards. They have to keep Rondo from having his way, as he is STILL their fourth wheel. And, watching the way guys like Powe and Allen have been playing, we need to minimize the impact of their second unit, which is really athletic and aggressive, on both ends of the court. Mo Evans and Marvin will be critical in those secondary match ups.
As I mentioned before, I’m anxious to see if Woody goes to Zaza, early and often, to match up with Perkins and rotate Horford and Smith over to KG and Pierce. Gotta go to the boards hard tonight.
I’ll be watching BIBBY’s play in the offensive zone, and whether the CELTICS successfully iso on him on defense as they did this spring in the play-offs. Its time to rise up MR.B and show HAWKS fans what you’ve got.
Enter your comments hereyo yo!! i leave for a little bit and come back to you two running a blog. how sweet is that. kudos to both of you. i do wonder if ando still has free reign to blast people like he always does. HAH!
Well…well…well, my two sons! You’ve finally made the bigtime! lol! That’s what’s up. Looking forward to hackin it up witcha. Great way to get it started on the biggest home game of the season!
After a solid, but slightly jittery start, our guys have calmed down and gotten right to business. GREAT ball movement so far, and ya’ll know you have to give Josh Smith mad props for fakin’ the three (okay, he probably WAS thinking about shooting it) and then passing to Marvin for a pretty deuce!
Then there was the marvelous Marvin fast break pass to Horford!
Big Al already looks like he’s going to try and get more rebounds than anybody else. The lid on the basket is going to come off any second now.
Notice that the Celts aren’t letting Joe even get a look at the basket….AT ALL. And we are still right on them….
Okay, Joe needs to just take what the defense is giving him and stop trying to force a way to find his shot. Clearly Boston wants to make us beat them with other players. We can do that. Pass the ball Joe, your opportunity will come….
Josh Smith doesn’t need to be trying to “shake and bake” anybody from 20-something feet out. All he’s going to do is lose the ball….which he did. Better to set up closer to the basket, make his move, and continue to draw fouls.
But he’s not the only one trying to force things. Joe doesn’t have any turnovers, but he’s forcing some shots. We can beat Boston without Joe scoring 30. We just have to keep running, keep playing good defense, and keep sharing the ball.
Josh needs to start fighting harder for rebounds. Big Al is already giving a herculean effort in this area, but a little more effort from Josh will result in us dominating the boards. Good thing our guards are helping in this area as well.
Mike Bibby is playing his butt off…His effort is dwarfing JJ’s. Wow.
Okay, how many bogus calls can you expect to have to endure ON YOUR OWN HOME COURT??
First the OBVIOUS double dribble by KG when Josh had him all bottled up, and then the sham Pierce grimaced and groaned his way into against Marvin. That is just straight up BS. Marvin is playing great, and on that play, all he did was put a body on Pierce. All I can tell Pierce is tie a kerosene rag on both of your ankles….that way no ants crawl up your legs and try to eat your candy arse!
Yes, Josh! Now THAT is the way you do things! Dunk on their heads, no more George Gervin imitations with finger rolls. Just dunk it!!!
Here we are late in the 4th quarter, and all I can hope is that our guys have enough left in the tank to finish it off. The bench hasn’t been playing much.
Celtics take another heartbreaker from us, and MAN does this hurt. This time we gave it to them.
Almost no bench play on our part, while Rivers uses his bench to wear us down in the late third and early fourth quarters. An early assessment of minutes played by both teams’ benches would be misleading. Boston had 4 bench players in double figures in minutes. We had 3. Not a big difference, right?
Wrong. It’s all about WHEN these guys played. Our bench players played mostly in the first half, very sparingly (or not at all) in the second half. Meanwhile, Doc Rivers used his bench with one starter (Ray Allen) for a good stretch, then brought in the rest of the starting lineup with about 5 or 6 minutes left to play….fresh and ready to go.
I was ready for someone to punch KG in the head. I mean this guy is the biggest douchebag in the history of the NBA. We saaw his true colors last year when somebody stands up to him like ZaZa did. I mean this guy got punked at by Matt Bonner at one time!!! I think the Hawks should trade for Brian Scalabrine hahaha!!!!!!
Hawks have tons of energy and athleticism – a great young team. But maybe their whiney fans (that couldn’t even fill their home court for “the biggest game of the year”) need to cop to the fact that the Celtics are OUTSTANDING. 24-2! 16 straight wins! And two of those 24 came at the expense of the Hawks. Stop acting like a regular season game against the C’s is the be-all/end-all. Just get into the playoffs. You’d kill to have Pierce, Garnett, Allen and Rondo wearing those stupid looking Hawks jerseys. G’night, bitches. Better luck next time.
Like I said on SS’s blog, the missed free throws hurt. Not only from Joe but Marvin and Josh..The lack of an offensive scheme is also a concern… It looks like we just make up play as we go…. Evans is not a finisher. For all of his athletic ability he struggles finishing at the rim for some reason. The past few weeks he has blowed a lot of easy lay ups and dunks. This is where we miss Chill. He was a great finisher… Chills sounds like he made a mistake chasing the money… I’m guessing we use his rights to add some pieces next year…. Hard fought game that I felt we should have won.
BIG RAY: I certainly agree in regard to your takes on two points. ONE, the celts were determined to lock down jj tonight. He just HAS to pass the ball. The commentary of Marc Jackson lauded JJ’s unselfish play and how he was passing to teammates. Yet at the end of the game, I saw a lot of dribbles from joe, some attempted drives on his part, a LOT of wide-open Bibby and Williams, and not a lot of that unselfish play that Jackson was crooning about. That fact alone may have cost the Hawks the game. Of course, he may have just been doing what he was instructed to do by Woodson. Who knows. I wasn’t in the huddle. And TWO, until the bench contributes in big games like this one, the Hawks are going to fall short against the strongest teams in the NBA. Good points.
It’s not rocket science…we will always struggle in the last 3 minutes of a close game because our coach does not believe in running plays. The only play in the playbook is the high guard screen outside of the arc with Bibby and JJ. And for the record, ISO JJ is not a play. That’s just what we do.
These guys need to take a page from the Romy and Witten with the Cowboys and just make up their own plays in the hotel rooms…
Did like Bibby’s play for the most part. His height is a distinct disadvantage, but he kept it together tonight. He even foiled one late jumper with great defense. Overall, I give him a B+. He played a good game, and should have received more passes from johnson when he was open.
gee it is great to go through this blog and see how well received the dynamic duo is … batman robin extraordinaire. also good to see it is sooo positive here that i feel good. it is so much better than that other negative blog.
i cringed when biiby seemed to get suck with pierce, though even with that pierce didnt go off. well fought game.
Where is the love for Marvin? He played a heck of a game tonight. He was scrapping on defense and on the boards. While Josh played fumblerooski, Marvin’s hands were much more steady than usual. Maybe he needs that UNC style big spotlight on his game to calm down.
I wish Woody had played Zaza more in the first half. He seemed to be in the right place at the right time to scrap inside. However, the egg timer went off and back to the bench–no regard for his positive impact on the game.
As for Joe and passing out of the double team, it seems that the most successful teams have the defense spread out and the 2nd pass after the double is the one that gets the open shot. We don’t seem to move the ball well with that 2nd pass to get an open look. Probably something to do with our offensive scheme or is it the offensiveness of our scheme…hmmm
Oh well, let’s take it out on Golden State on Friday.
Spyder, bench has got to play to contribute. There has been an ongoing discussion, amongst long-standing blog members, about Woody’s unwillingness to use his bench. Early in the season, he seemed to have evolved. But in the last few games, he’s reverted to his old ways. Tonight, the starters played 199 of a possible 240 minutes, with an 8-man rotation. These numbers are even more drastic than Saturday’s win against the Cavs, when the bench combined for 53 minutes.
While you can’t argue with the win against the Cavs, or the near-win, against the Celtics, the fact that Woody has reverted to overplaying his starters just revisits the old concerns about him risking the teams’ playoff potential for immediate gratification. The fact that the Hawks had a 6-9 run, while Josh was out/shaking off the rust, underscores just how quickly things could turn south if a key member of the team had a serious injury.
The seemingly accurate observation that the Hawks have to lean on the high guard screen is less about a lack of creativity, and more a concession that we still don’t have a legitimate low-post scorer. The reason that flaw seems to be exposed late in games is that ALL NBA games grind down to half-court sets, when the outcome is close, or during the playoffs.
As far as Bibby needing more passes when open, I’m not seeing him open that much. Clearly his game is now built on catch-and-shoot. But JJ has never been selfish, and Bibby isn’t that quick. And the box score suggests that, once again, young Rondo got the best of the PG match up.
Manny, you know that I struggle to identify with cynicism, but I feel you. Ray hit it on the head, regarding the Hawks playing starters against the Celtic bench, early in the fourth quarter. We were on the phone, and it was so obvious that the implications of that match up would result in Boston playing well-rested starters, against our tiring starters, at the end of the game.
But that point seems like a micro-analysis. I posted about KG wandering his way to a 2-10 night, mid way through the 4th quarter, over on SS’s blog. And then, seemingly out of nowhere, there’s the KG that folks think of, when discussing the best players in the NBA. Next thing you know, he’s closing with a 5 for 5 FG performance.
As I’m typing, Walton is dogging our offensive approach, and highlighting how Rondo is the superior PG, over Bibby. OK, Sekou, I know you don’t like Walton. Who does? But the numbers, and a thorough observation of the whole game, actually support his points…..
I did not see/hear Walton and I am not trying to put Bibby above Rondo, but they play very different roles for their teams. Bibby is more like our version of Ray Allen. Hit the open jumpers and give us a good punch on offense. We don’t expect much defense from him.
Rondo needs to play strong D for the Celtics. He is a younger version of what Claxton was supposed to be in Atlanta. Provide on-ball pressure and disrupt the offense without letting the other PG break you down and attack the lane.
As for our bench, the proper time to give them a chance was during the first 23 games when we had 8 back to backs (16 games). If Mario only gets 5 minutes, do I worry about him fouling out…probably not. If AC makes a mistake or two in his 10-15 minutes will that cost us the game? Maybe, but it’s more likely that one of the rested starters will make up for it because of 32 very active minutes instead of 32 good minutes and 10 energy conserving minutes on the court.
The only thing more frustrating than Woody is the radio broadcast joke on 790. Sometimes you hear some games unless there is a GaTech game, or there are too many stars in the sky. I was in the parking lot just before the game started and I laughed when they said they were cutting over to the Tech game, but you could hear the Hawks on NBA.COM I guess I need to get my ride upgraded with a high speed internet satellite connection ;-0
The Hawks will never go anywhere until they get a BIG MAN, and Josh stop shooting all those juup shot and go to the Hole,and tell Joe stop dribbling so much and shot the Ball.
Big Ray, and MY boy HB Ando- ya’ll know I’ve GOT to come through here late night! Before I get to this game, (I’d be remiss if I didn’t point this out) yeah, you’re fans. But this is no accident- you’re also a couple of damn good writers (with equally distinctive styles). Ray, that intro was a gem. I’m proud to see this happen. Now, the brass tax-
First of all, if the continuation rule applied to ALL of the teams in the NBA, we win this by four. There’s no excuse for the kind of (no) calls these refs were making in the second and third quarters.
The ESPN broadcast was strong. Liked the play-by-play (dude was working that new-shcool Tirico style) and the color guy- much higher quality than your typical ESPN broadcast.
Boston defended us the only way they know how- lock down Johnson and make the likes of Smith, Bibby and Williams beat you. The Hawks defended Boston the only way THEY know how- let Rhondo have whatever he wants, because you can’t leave the big three. It worked for both teams- hey, you hold any NBA team under 90 points, you’ve done your job.
Like HB said, it’s not a statement. It’s a measuring stick. We measure up pretty well with this team- the “team to beat” in the East (sorry, Bronny). They’re still on the right track- tell the truth ya’ll- have you EVER seen ANY Hawks team play defense like this? ‘Nique and them didn’t play this kind of D. The Jason Terry crowd? Please.
Oh, and sorry you’re having such a rough time over there in Greece, Chills. Here’s a couple grand- you can use the bills to sop up those tears. There’s just not enough room for those big fish when they wind up in a Euro pond…
Bleh, the Hawks outplayed the Celts last night — but the Celts out executed us down the stretch. Little things like the right outlet, and positioning under the boards. Of course, the kicker was JJ’s missed free throw, and I know he feels bad about it — but it shouldn’t have come down to just that.
Anyway, we can’t afford a hangover. We still need to make the most of this home stand because we have another rough patch in the schedule come January. I think the team’s doing better than expected — but not as well as they could — so as long as we improve heading towards the end of the season … I’m really looking forward to playing games in March for playoff positioning instead of just to get in.
As far as the new blog goes — we need to get a solid link going on the main sports page alongside the Falcons’, Braves’ and Thrashers’ fan blogs. I don’t know what the hold up on that is.
Hopefully everyone has a safe and happy holiday season — all the best to you all from me and my family up in South Jersey, i.e. the evil suburbs of Philly. And don’t watch the replay on Brand’s shoulder from last night — it’s almost as bad as Theisman in its own way. Ouch …
Has everyone left Sekou’s blog and come over here. I just went and read the blog and I’m like where are all the normal posters. I think doc and IMUS were the only posters I was familiar with. But the really bad thing was every other post I’m like did you even watch the game. WTF are you talking about. Big time quality drop-off. Oh well
Thanks for the kudos, my man. Glad you came over, and I’m looking forward to more of your contributions. They truly enrich a blog.
Some of the ref calls aggravated the crap out of me. Particularly the botched KG-double dribble, and the Pierce-flop/travel missed calls. And you’re right about how we match up to these guys. Tell me something. After Josh threw down that thunderous dunk, he had the look of “Damn, that felt good!” So….what does it take for him to do that no less than 5 or 6 times a game? I realize somebody said “Hey dude, you don’t want to be known as just a dunker.” But…it works just fine for guys like Amare Stoudamire and Dwight Howard…just fine indeed.
As far as Chills goes, I think he’s discovering an age old adage: “Life is a series of trade-offs.”
Sautee,
Excellent point. Rondo sees us for what we are: a team that plays to it’s perceived competition all too often.
So, to build off of a theme, should Friday’s Warriors tilt be called, “Let-down game?”
Because the history of sports is littered with teams who get fixated on “The Big Game”, and subsequently fall flat in the game before, or after, said game. The Warriors represent the junior version of the Suns, circa ‘04-’07; a team that can beat anyone on any given night, but who aren’t really a threat from a playoff series contention standpoint. At this stage, their not even as good as D’Antoni’s Knicks, in this category.
But they are a “any given night” kind of team, requiring discipline and focus. And if the Hawks show up either stuck on Wednesday’s game, or over-confident from yet another near-miss, with the World Champions, then an unexpected, and unacceptable (for a team that is now positioned for serious, Eastern Conference respect), outcome is not out of the realm of consideration.
As an aside, tomorrow night is the Hawks’ town hall meeting, set up for season ticket holders. The Hacks will have representation at that forum, and are open for requested questions of the organization (with no realistic expectation that the Hacks will get even one, if not many, questions answered).
My question for the ASG. What’s the deal with the (lack of) radio coverage? Especially when Tech has a game. They used to move it over to FM. Now they just blow it off as if the Hawks don’t exist.
I do wonder what Sund’s biggest surprise is since the start of the season. I’m sure there’s one that he won’t say publicly, but I’ll take the other one.
Isn’t that suspended guy named Moped Ellis
As for the Warriors game…the Hawks will get sucked in for awhile. It gives them an excuse to run and we know the players like to run. They should settle down at some point and make this a solid bounce back from Wednesday.
If Woody really wants to slow this game down, he plays Zaza more and forces the GSW to play post defense. If the worst case reaction comes out, Woody goes small to match up with their small line up. We might see Joe at the 4. It can work, but it’s not playing to OUR strengths.
I’m with Manny T- if ya’ll get a word in edgewise, ask about the inconsistent t.v./radio coverage. Tell ‘em how embarrased me and the bwaf inventor are about the whole thing.
I hope they heard what Rhondo said, “If they played this hard every night…” Am I crazy, or didn’t we run Golden State out of the building LAST year? Should be fun to watch.
Why DOESN’T Smith dunk more? A lot more? And here’s another question I have-
Who are they going to bring in that can work with Smith and Williams (and really Horford as well) on their post moves? Look, they bring in a shooting coach, next thing you know, we’re at the top of the league in threes. This is an extremly talented (and extremly young) frontcourt- and all three of them could stand to improve down there offensively.
Put it like this: IF the Hawks could pry assistant coach Phil Johnson away from the Utah Jazz combined with Head Coach Mike Woodson’s defensive strategies, the Hawks would win the NBA championship at least two years in a row (if not three). That’s how close they are; they’re at the cusp of greatness. A little fine tuning…and it’s on!
For now, the C’s will reign because they have it together.
“And we have to play to win, not to lose.” a quote from bibby.
i guess that about sums up what we saw and what the team has to work on. it is still about growth. the team was strung tight against the C’s as there efforts on the long shots, the free throws and close in were all of their marks. it was a team that knew each possession was critical but only the whole team choked in the full extent of the game in that no player stood up and put the team on their shoulders. it wasnt a lack of trying and that is to their credit. in the end the other guys showed their cool with critical stops and critical scores. we didnt do it at either end.
tonight we have to adjust to knowing that there will be more possessions but each as critical. unfortunately if the team loses its focus or comes up cold, both recent tendencies then they could get buried fast.
the key to shaking it off is to get their strut back, to sink shots at the beginning and play defense to let the warriors know they are the pretenders in the game not the other way around.
i also commend you guys for your remarks, on point as usual. also look forward to spending some time with ando as he does his research tonight from the game tonight. i will get a preview maybe f his remarks to lend to you in a wrap up segment.
Please ask about the lack of utilization of the NBDL for guys like Othella Hunter now (and Solo in the past). And of course, the Speedy question… as there does not appear to be a down-side to submitting retirement papers due to injuries.
Astro…slow your roll on the retirement thing. First, Speedy would have to agree. If he thinks he can come back, why retire unless there is a buyout in the wings. (As if the ASG wants to spend more money in this economy.)
Also remember the fear that Portland has right now. If Darius Miles plays in 10 games this year, they lose all of the cap relief they got from his “retirement.” You really don’t want to be cap-jammed in the summer of 2010 when JJ is a free agent, you have to figure out if you are extending Al, and all the big name free agents are out there. (Not saying we will get one of the big names, but we should be able to get someone to help.)
Time to go hear what Mr. Sund, and the attending fans, have to say at the “Town Hall” meeting. Oh, and watch what looks to be a major offensive exhibition. Interesting to see if the Hawks try and slow the pace down, or just pin their ears back and put it into overdrive. Not sure if that’s the best way to beat the Warriors, but it would be a lot of fun to watch……
Okay, this is not good. We’ve gotten away from playing the harassing, turnover-inducing defense, and allowed Wright, Belinelli, and Azubuike to get into somewhat of a groove…and lost the lead at the same time.
Josh Smith looks totally out of it. He’s not doing what he normally does on defense. He should have about 5 blocks already. Marvin, on the other hand, is looking great on offense, even finishing with contact on one fast-break play. Must be the Chad Johnson haircut…or bad imitation thereof.
Now they’re beating us on the boards, and it’s starting to show. Gotta get back to Hawks basketball.
Well, we finally tied it, but we’re making it look like this is a competition. The problem is that it shouldn’t be. One of the teams is scrappy on both offense AND defense. The other is jacking up shots and being lax on defense. We’re the second team. Time to get it in gear.
Speaking of which, why does Flip Murray get the second span of playing time while Acie gets snubbed? Acie comes in for 7 minutes or so, produces a quick 5 assists, then goes back out. Flip comes in and turns it over 3 times, but he gets the second call. Riiiiiight…
Heh! I like the new Josh Smith move: fake the jumper (you know, the one most teams are praying he shoots), then pass it to the open teammate for an easy, uncontested shot. Tell you what, he may not be scaring the defense by faking the shot, but he is freezing it….they start looking for the rebound, and STOP playing defense. It works…..for now at least.
Nice “recovery” by the Hawks after letting Golden State play their game for a while.
Woodson did some out of character things tonight as far as the bench was concerned. Can’t complain, though. I was surprised to see Bibby play so little in the second half. Hmmmm. Well, like I said, can’t complain.
Josh Smith is not a dumb player, I don’t care what ANYBODY says. No way do you follow 5 turnovers with 7 assists like that. Dude changed part of the game with his passing ALONE. Still, you have to wonder what is wrong with him. He’s not all over the place like he used to be. I don’t think it’s lack of effort. I think it’s lack of confidence that his physicality is back on-line. Which means that it might NOT be….
It almost seems like there has been a Freaky Friday swap between Josh and VeintiQuatro.
Josh’s ball handling looks more uncertain as he gets close to the basket. Marvin is going for his. Tapping out offensive rebounds, dunking on folks…now all he needs are some touchdown celebrations and a hair/barber sponsor. Marvin’s note to self–don’t ask Shelden Williams.
Glad that the Hawks pulled it out. Early in the game it looked like the bench was very appreciative of their holiday gift from Woody (i.e. playing time.)
Well, I wondered about a “let down” game, and saw just that in the first half. And not just the team, but the fans as well. Seemed to be a big hangover from the major event that was the Celtics game on Wednesday. Fortunately, the Hawks shook it off in the fourth quarter and took care of business.
Given that the Warriors were without Jackson and Maggette, not to mention Ellis, there really isn’t a plausible explanation for them to have lost. Still not sure why Nellie wasn’t playing Anthony Randolph, either.
But a win is a win.
With regards to the “town hall” meeting, it was something of a disappointment. We got 45 minutes of Bob Rathbun, deferring really good questions to Rick Sund, who finally showed up after “getting stuck in an elevator”, to take about 5 questions.
But the evening was compelling, as Manny T, doc, Jhan and Ando all got to challenge each other on a range of points regarding the Hawks.
The discussions, before, during and after, were actually more fun than the game.
Also got in a post-game chat with Sautee.
Notable was Marvin’s performance, which continued a developing theme that he’s at his best in Western Conference-style games, and may draw a better offer, from a team on the Left Coast, when his restricted free agency comes to market this summer. He just seems more comfortable, and confident, when the game is played at a quicker pace.
Sund was asked about Bibby’s near-term future here, and seemed to indicate that unless an offer was received, that would make the team better this year, he wasn’t likely to be moved, based on financial issues. I guess we’ll know for sure when the trade deadline is passed. They’re definitely better with him on the floor. But I can’t shake my opinion that his contract is the difference between profitability and 7-figure loss this year. And I still don’t believe he’ll be here at the end of the season.
But I’ve been wrong before, as a couple of you never tire of highlighting.
Thanks to both doc and Jhan, who both offered me a seat tonight……
Do we play to the level of our competition, or what?
Against the Celts we looked like one of the best five teams in the NBA for 58 minutes or so. Tonight, I thought we were the Knicks for three quarters. I was expecting to see Starbury courtside talking about his ‘Money for Nothing’ lifestyle.
We’re playing a 7-19 team, without two of its best players … at home … and we’re down in the 4th quarter? Amazing. Thank goodness both teams remembered who they were and where they were at in the last 10 minutes or so.
Whew.
Anyway, the way the Hawks can play in spurts this year both scares and excites me. We can really, honestly play with anyone — both the good teams and the bad teams. I sincerely hope we can get a bit more mentally tough as the season goes along so we can win games at the end — instead of losing them to good teams like the Celts, and also just put teams like the Warriors out of their misery early instead of letting them stick around all night.
Ando according to the Warriors blog, Nellie told Randolph to tell his agent to look for a trade because it would not work out in Golden State. I like the kids game though. He needs some weight but he clearly has a lot of skills.
Damn, CP, that’s bizarre. Just a couple of games ago Randolph had 15 and 10. What’s the whole story? If they want to dump a kid that talented, I’m sure just about every team in the league would be interested in picking him up cheap…..
Great Blog guys. I read this blog and Seku’s blogs just because I’m a huge basketball fan. I like the insight you guys put into not only the hawks, but the upcoming matchups. I hope you keep this up. Good win tonight, but another “where do we stand” game on Sunday (I don’t want to say big game because it’s way too early for that). I hope you guys keep this up. I’m looking forward to it.
P.S. This Boston game is still on my mind. I would love to see all these Boston fans in 2 years when KG, Allen, and Pierce are broken up and they are back where they deserve to be: middle of the pack at best. LET’S GO HAWKS!
From reading the Warriors blog the fans feel that Nellie is doing things to spite Mullin. It’s a big mess over there. A lot of their younger players are or were riding the bench even when they were short handed. If you ever have time go to realgm.com and check the Warriors blog. They seriously want Nellie out of there. When given minutes Randolph seems to play well but he doesn’t get consistent minutes. Wright doesn’t get them either. They also complain about how he plays a lot of 4 guard rotations and leave the bigs on the bench for no reason.
One thing I kind of hinted at in the intro to THIS blog was the second thing Nelson is most known for: his doghouse. He’s known first and foremost as a master of small ball. But a none-too-distant second is the massive doghouse he keeps.
This guys has had as much creative control as he can stand for YEARS. And if he doesn’t like you for some reason, or doesn’t want you to play: you’re just not. As I said in the intro, only Turiaf and Biedrins are constant contributors, the rest of the low post guys don’t know if they’re in a feast or famine.
Nellie’s brand of basketball has won a lot of games over the years, but can you recall a time that it was good enough to get past the second round of the playoffs? His best chances were with that Dallas squad a few years back. Didn’t make it then, and has only managed a very exciting first round knockout against his former team a couple years back, before exiting in the second round.
The Warriors may be young, but they have loads of talent. I know times are rough due to the loss of Davis, Ellis, and more recently Maggette and Jackson. But Sam Mitchell can’t keep O’Neal on the floor. Eddie Jordan never has Arenas. And they’re both out of a job. Nellie’s teams have never played much defense. His offense is no more potent than D’Antoni’s. If he’s playing games in Golden State, Chris Mullin better either come to an understanding with him or bite the bullet and let him go.
Here’s the thing I’ve noticed about Nellie over the years: If he doesn’t get his way, he makes it hell for anybody around. He plays who he wants to play, and that’s all there is to it. He’s never been to the NBA finals, not even with that 50+ win Dallas squad for several years in a row. So do you place all the blame on the injuries (Ellis, Maggette, Jackson)? Nellie was also known (with each team he coached) for having rifts with key players. I’m not saying he’s a bad coach. But a guy who does things like this when the situation is already sour….well, you have to wonder is the future with him getting brighter or dimmer?
Either way, he makes Woody’s doghouse look like club med.
great line there ray buddy about the nellie club med that includes so many super stars you could even call it the taj mahal that is the dog house of all dog houses for coaches. nellie has no contact with players and actually ignores them during games. gosh he lets them play though, up and down man.
fun game last night getting to see some of my compadres and to sit next to the ando form of andro last night at the sund thing and the second half. he is a blast as he is always full of info and ready to disarm any comment you make. sometimes it is best just to say uh huh, other times when there is extra energy to exert to continue the repartee that can get pretty outrageous on both ends. somehow it always sems t getto the point of how big are yours and are you willing to bet on it. guess that isnt news to you guys that are regular readers though. heh heh . really enjoy his comments though, live and here. jhan’s seats are unbelievable but i continue to like my poor man version of box seats where i landed. found a buddy up there to talk bball with, all is good.
BTW props to the support staff that are involved in purchasing and supporting HAWKS season ticket holders, they really do a fine job. folks you really ned to look into the packages that they have and get committed to be regular hawks fans at the phillips. i think you will be really surprised at the over all experience.
Is there a part of Nellie’s bench that has EXILE ISLAND painted on it
doc
Those folks on the support staff do work hard to make things happen. Even last night I was surprised to see my rep come to my seat to work out a mix up we had earlier in the week. Glad I was there.
It also helps to have good fans in the place instead of those carpetbaggers that showed up on Wednesday with the green gear they purchased earlier this year.
Good to see everybody at the game. I too was disappointed in the town hall meeting. Lot’s of good questions didn’t get asked/answered due to the “elevator” malfunction. Maybe next time.
Acie finally got some burn last night. Played great for 7 minutes then back to the bench. Nobody on GS could stay in front of Acie. Still don’t understand why he gets no significant minutes.
He might be able to force the issue in practice, but it’s the coaches that make up those teams as well. Law needs to either show that he can play well with Flip (which isn’t likely unless they use 2 basketballs) or play against Flip in practice to show that he can get some more playing time.
However, there is a wild card that I do not understand. After he showed out in Cleveland last month, he was rewarded with a Javaris Crittenton i.e. DNP-CD
Quick quip on the Piston’s tip: We’re improved and they are in either transition, or a state of flux. It’s at our house, so this should play to a W for the home team. Buuuttt, this is still the Pistons, crafty and savvy veteran team.
With all this talk, this past week, about “traps”, “statements” and “measuring sticks”, this is a good old-fashioned challenge. Time to play. Hope the kids are up to the challenge….
I hear ya CP. Marvin seems to have this “change over night” ability. One day we wake up after a tumultous summer and he’s suddenly a 3-point shooter. A week ago, Marvin couldn’t hit a layup if he was in traffic. Now he can’t be stopped….
Great effort on the glass today by Horford and Williams.
Marvin has also been great about getting to loose balls and tapping out rebounds that he can’t grab. He’s looking better than he ever has, on defense as well. I hope we continue to see this type of effort from him.
While Marvin’s stepped up effort has truly been a blessing with Smith seeming to be so earth-bound, I don’t want it go away when Smith gets his legs back all the way. I want to see Marvin doing these things consistently, every time he hits the floor. It will only make this team that much more dangerous and difficult to defend, especially in those tougher games (i.e. against Cleveland, Boston, etc).
With today’s performance, Marvin has a chance to prove that he doesn’t just do well against western conference foes, which would be a good thing. Then again, proof would have to come in the form of several performances like this one (and the one against Golden State) before we could latch onto that theory.
I’ve miss the last two games, although I did try to listen to the end of the Golden State game on the radio. I was on PIB and couldn’t pick up the game clearly. That’s just a shame.
I watching the box scores, I keep seeing a site that concerns be going into the new year: the minutes that Joe Johnson is logging game-in and game-out. Every game sees him playing around 41 minutes a game.
No complaints considering the Hawks have a real show of winning 20 games before ‘09, but it’s December and the bench is three people deep most nights. It sure would be nice to have another solid bench player.
If the string won’t reach from Philips to where you are, no radio reception after dark. However, I do recall Bob Rathburn mentioning at the Town Hall meeting, that folks with satellite radio can get the games.
Personally, I don’t spend enough time in the car to consider paying for radio service.
You need Woody to define SOLID BENCH PLAYER otherwise, it’s just a waste of a trade to get someone. I think AC & Solo could be added to the rotation, but it doesn’t look likely.
We watched the Celts win it all last year with a 9/10 man rotation. I realize that their bench was stronger than anybody else’s, but surely we can manage an 9/10 rotation. Solo and Acie are worthwhile contributors, in my opinion. Solo has proven it every time he’s gotten minutes this season. And he was getting good minutes early. I don’t know why Woody has truncated his playing time the way he has. Methinks that there is the possibility of a discipline issue lurking, but one never knows.
I hate to think the worst of Woodson in this area, but he doesn’t always leave much room for you to think the best (despite the record). And as CHUCK W says, it’s not a good thing to see JJ piling up 41 minute games, particularly this early in the season. As it is, this “bench issue” will likely be an upcoming blog subject.
It would be nice if we were on the main page where the old Hawks Hack was. Kinda tough working in the underwater cave here…
Maybe you should tag your posts on Sekou’s blog with a link to the front of this site. (i.e. stop before you get to the 2008 part as in http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-hawks-blog
It will be good even when you start a new subject. just code it as below…it won’t work on this system, but it will work on the other one.
[big ray](http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-hawks-blog)
Ray and Ando, please give me your opinions on this:
It’s all too obvious that we lack an inside game. But do you think it’s a lack of ability on the part of Horford and Smith, or is it a design of Woody’s “offensive” (and boy do I mean offensive) scheme?
Another poster on Sekou’s blog mentioned the lack of offensive rebounds between them and wondered about being told “get back, get back” every time down the court.
Are we seriously under-utilizing our two most athletic big men?
Couldn’t Josh, with the right coaching, develop into a Sean Elliott type point forward, creating for his teammates?
Couldn’t Horford be fed on hard cuts to the basket, and at he VERY least, create fouls on the opposing bigs?
And both of these guys have to be near the top of the league in assists for their positions. So what could we do to use these skills?
I’m REALLY tired of Joe doing a Tyronn Lue impression and pounding the ball for 15-18 seconds and either giving it up with 2 seconds on the clock, or shooting agains a double team. We need some inside out.
Sautee, when Joe posts up inside or uses that teardrop shot in the lane, that is the inside ISO Joe. When he dribbles around the 3 point line and gets a pick from Bibby that is outside ISO Joe.
What more could you ask for
As long as we are winning, I doubt Woody will step up to more development of the offense or the bench. It’s kinda like not wanting to change things when you are on the hottest streak of your life.
ents here When Joe realize that the Hawks are more than him and other guys on the TEAM are capable of scoring and carrying this team we will really be someone too fear. When Bibby is hot,get him the ball and get out of the way.Joe and too a larger degree Woody are the reason we struggle on offense.Joe don’t have to prove to anybody that he’s a star and Woody needs to stop feeding him with this stuff.Joe has more players around him that can ball ,so he should let them.
Some people think we lack an inside game because we have insufficient size. While that is a valid argument, we DO in fact, have guys who can score inside with regularity.
I agree that it is more about scheme than most things. On the one hand, I wouldn’t want Horford to have to go up in the paint all the time against guys who are 3-6 inches taller and 30-50 pounds heavier. On the other hand, Horford is a lot faster than we give him credit for. Watching him drive the ball a couple of times reveals this. A hard cut to the basket makes ANY of our three frontcourt starters difficult to guard. Horford, Smith, and Williams are ALL capable of finishing (Marvin being the latest to join the party…and hopefully he’s staying) on plays like that.
I think one of the keys to making this work is having a second player cut to the paint as well. That gives the first cutter a chance to pass the ball off if/when he draws the defense. And all three of our guys can pass, so it works. In fact, we’ve seen plays like this is spurts, in several games. We’ve seen Marvin flash to the basket, receive the ball from a guard (or Smith or Horford), then pass to whichever guy happend to also flash to the basket, and it’s an easy score.
As you say, design is the key word. I don’t believe those plays are designed, or we’d see them more. What we do see is plays that revolve around JJ or Bibby. And they tend to be ISO plays, or plays that involve the screen-and-roll (the only problem being, after the screen is completed, the roller is forgotten). Bibby is actually executing the screen-and-roll better than JJ is. Much better, in fact. JJ is also having some difficulty in successfully shedding or beating the double team. Part of it is because other guys are not getting themselves open so that he can pass out of the double. But gee, I wonder why that is? Because “ISO” usually means “you ain’t gettin’ the ball back.” However, they must move without the ball to give JJ options. Other times, JJ simply holds onto the ball too long, dribbling precious seconds off the clock before trying a heavily contested long jumper, or flinging a pass to a guy who shouldn’t be taking quick, long jumpshots…like Smith.
No, our offense is heavily guard and perimeter oriented. Good teams will know how to shut this down and make us beat them elsewhere. So we definitely need to employ an offensive scheme that goes through the post some kind of way and generates a lot of points in the paint. With that will come the foul calls and free throws. That, and it will make our post players that much more effective, putting them in a situation where they are most likely to succeed. We’ll see what ol’ Woody does with this. One-trick ponies don’t make it through many races…
I don’t know about the long-term prospects of Woddy’s rotation. I think the style we’re playing is better suited to a 10-11 man rotation, where we can make up in our lack of size in the front court with aggressiveness and energy.
However, Woody seems to be more set on a really tight 8-9 man rotation. Fortunately, we’re young enough to get away with it for now, but even one injury really hurts us. When Josh was out for the month, we were lucky to tread water. Not that JSmooth isn’t THAT good, but just as much of the problem was exposed in our rotation.
A lot of the scribes have called our bench the worst in the NBA. I don’t agree, and as many of you have already posted — Zaza, Solo, Acie, Murray and Evans are solid. Where we fall short is really after that — and I think that’s more a coaches’ decision than anything else. Except Speedy. I think Speedy may have suffered another horrendous toenail injury today getting out of the whirlpool.
Mario deserves more run, Randolph has potential, and we’re never going to find out if Othello Hunter is player — either here or in the NBADL — if he never leaves the bench. I forget who we have after those guys, but that’s because I haven’t seen any of them since … Las Vegas?
Personally, I really think we can get our rotation to a more solid 10-12 with the talent we already have, and over the course of an 82-game season — it can make a big difference. Five minutes here and eight minutes there might not sound like much, but tired players get hurt more — and the last thing we need is that.
I think maybe we should start a ‘Free Mario’ campaign — or simply adopt one of the underused bench players as our blog mascot. Kind of like what’s been done for the Braves’ players in the past. Who knows, maybe just a little bit of blog love could motivate one of our guys — or even convince Woody to give him some run.
In the end, that’s what I’d like to see over the middle third of this season. A little more depth, to keep our main guys healthy and ready for the post season — where you can thin the rotation as much as you want with these three-week long series.
Enter your comments hereCongrats to Big Ray and Don.Those are two of the best comments about the Haweks that I have read. I wish Woody would listen to what you guys are saying.I saw the Hawks operate against ST.when JJ was on the bench and Flip and Bibby were in the backcourt together.I’ve also seen that the BIGS get better looks when AC is in the game and he gets in the paint.I wish Woody would play the second unit more like he did during preseason.I think you could develop a good reserve unit by playing AC,Flip,Mo,Solo and Z.P.This unit along with Morris.I believe could give our starters more rest and also give themselves valuable court time.Oh yeah.that iso with JJ will not work as long as JJ don’t trust his teammates to get them the ball,or because he really thinks he’s the only one that he and Woody wants to shoot the ball.I’m tired of this I’m the man crap,play team ball and I bet you that you JJ will get better looks and your teammates will really grow when they know you trust them.Don’t dribble and take bad shot when you can hit the pick man and make the other teams stop doubling you because the will start believing you will actually pass to the cutter.GO HAWKS….
I just want to see Acie traded, so maybe he can get some CONSISTENT playing time somewhere else. I became an immediate Hawks fan when Acie was signed, but I don’t get to see them play much, since not very many games are televised and I live in the West. I am just basing my observations on stats and seeing the last six games of alternating “7:00 minutes of playing time and DNP, Coach’s decision” is just crazy. How can you build young players with that kind of coaching? Please trade him to some team (and coach), who will develop Acie into the kind of player, and leader, that I know he can be!
Almost a year later, hotel people out here are still badmouthing Mike Bibby for insisting on ordering everything not on the menu for his party of hangers-on (”I want fried chicken just the way my mother makes it . . .”) and then trying to sign Ron Artest’s name and room to a $330 bill. Precluded from doing so by the waiter, Bibby sniffed the waiter with a sneer, leaving no gratuity. This obnoxious behavior occurred a couple days before the Kings traded him to the Hawks.
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Finally, we’re running plays CONSISTENTLY to score inside. It’s working great, as two of our frontcourt starters are scoring in double figures. Bibby is running the screen-and-roll to near perfection.
Perhaps Marvin started going to Chad Johnson’s barber. I don’t know, but it’s working for him. Dude is slashing, driving, and dunking. And drawing fouls. Gotta love it. Didn’t think I’d be saying this, but Bibby is leading this team in ways that Joe Johnson never has. Interesting…
Finishing — as in finishing the season with healthy, motivated players is going to be the problem if we’re not careful. Up by 7 with 2:24 left after Josh hits a 3-pointer — that didn’t seem to be the inside play we’re looking for here.
This team is like a barn cat playing with its food before eating it — no matter how big (Detroit), or small (OKC) the mouse. And sometimes, these mice will bite back … please just don’t let it be this mouse tonight!
Sigh, this is what I wanted to see in the second and third quarters — not this late. These kids need some run in meaningful game situations — not the last minute of trash time.
Hawks win 99-88. And we even had a Solo sighting in the last 30 seconds! Talk about finishing, Acie got a pair of free throws down and Solo (Solo?!!?!) hit a 26-foot three-pointer! Mario had to get into the books too with a technical.
Like I said, this team is like a young barn cat. It just wants to run and ponce, and occasionally it has to gack one up (Celtics) when it tries too hard. I just hope Woody doesn’t run these kids to death before March …
Thanks for coming over, I was beginning to wonder if I should start arguing with myself for amusement!
I really don’t get Woody’s lock-down of the bench. The starters sometimes need a wake-up call (like when they’re not beating the crap out of a league doormat like OKC). And the bench needs to get some serious run, during serious minutes, as you said.
That’s how Boston won last year. With their bench. All through the regular season, and all through the playoffs. No doubts, whatsoever. But then, that would be the difference between Doc Rivers and Mike Woodson.
And times of turmoil are also good times. Look what Poppovich and the Spurs are doing with George Hill, a guy drafted in the 2nd round this past draft. Now you mean to tell me this guy can get serious burn, and Acie Law CAN’T???
Yeah Big Ray, it looks like we have the blog to ourselves a bit tonight. I imagine things will get better when you guys finally get your link on the main sports page, plus it is crunch time for holiday shopping. In addition, it’s kind of hard to get fired up about playing the worst team in the league. I remember the days when that was us … like three years ago.
On the positive side — I do like the spacing Woody has going on offense. I think teams have really started to respect our shooting, and the offense seems to be designed to open the floor up more than in year’s past. When we can get our guys moving to the basket — there should be openings.
Sometimes it just seems like we settle for too many jump shots sometimes when, at least to my eyes, it looks like there’s a lane to the basket. Marvin got a really nice layup late in the fourth, but I really want to see more power moves out of him, Josh and Big Al — especially like the one Josh pulled out against the Celtics last week. One good rim shaker like that can really set the tone for this team, and as a young team they play much better when they have that swagger that comes from being aggressive at the basket on both offense and defense.
Of course, it’s those 10-12 minutes a game that the Hawks seem to have when they lose focus that really hurts. But, I like the spacing in the offensive half-court sets — we just need to get Woody to light a fire under someone’s tail to take the ball to the rack with authority more often.
Winning ugly is the subtitle for this season. Gimpy Josh, short rotations, 3 of top 8 in contract year, 5 of 15 players unlikely to score 82 points this season, A six pack of coaches fired before Christmas–with Woody on solid ground, and we are solidly the 4th best team in the east playing above a 60% winning pace. If I made this stuff up, you would say I was BUI (blogging under the influence.)
Gotta tip your cap to a strange season. At least it’s strange in a good way for us.
How times have changed. Five games for Christmas. The NBA is trying to get me in trouble.
Y’all need to get this blog listed on Garmin, Tom-tom, Google maps, etc.
I love how Bibby is trying to involve the bigs lately. I just wish that Joe would do the same. I’ll say it yet again: We will NEVER be a powerhouse team until Joe starts to truly trust the younguns.
There is now a link to the Hawks Hacks on the Hawks main page of the sports section. However, it takes you directly to the prior blog, not the main page or the current blog.
Progress comes in small steps. Like the 4 years it took Woody to get to a winning record. I suspect your success will be quicker once you get your blog GPS.
Time to kick a few Bulls while they are down tonight.
These ain’t your pop’s Bulls. These guys excel from the perimeter and practically nowhere else. They’ll likely be all over Bibby, so getting the ball in to Horford, Smoove, and Marv will be paramount.
If we run this right, the Bulls froncourt will be in foul trouble in no time flat. Aaron Gray is a big boy who will give all the effort you can ask for…but he’s slooooow. No match for Horford. Noah is quicker, but not strong enough, and he’s been in and out of the doghouse lately. Same for Tyrus Thomas, who can’t focus if you gave him a view-finder…It will be up to Deng and Nocioni primarily, and while Nocioni will make the effort, he’s also fiery (read: technical prone) when getting into foul trouble against more athletic opponents. Deng has been anything BUT the guy who held out and signed for $71 million this past summer. Somebody better figure that one out QUICK, or it’s going to be someone’s job, I guarantee…
And no playing to the other team’s strengths. Kick them down, kick them hard, and don’t give them a good game plan for how to get their revenge on the next game.
Forgot to mention: Drew Gooden is the Bulls’ only true legit hope in the post. And I think he’s either going to be out, or playing with an injury somewhat similar to the one Josh Smith has endured (if I recall correctly).
Unless of course, we aim to let the Bulls bigs have a career night. Better NOT…
Here we are already, not putting our feet on their necks. Aarong Gray has proven he’s not quick enough to guard Horford (though he’s tall enough and long enough). Why hasn’t Horford gotten more touches? Well, I guess he’s gotten a decent amount, as he already has handed out an assist or two…
Josh is trying too hard…AGAIN..I say sit him, talk to him, and let Solo get some much-earned burn.
It would be great to see the Hawks put the defense they have played over the past few games with the offensive ball rotation and mix of inside and out they are playing right now into one complete game.
This ability to attack the rim isn’t new from Marvin go back to some of first year highlights and you might be a little disappointed with what you see. It’s almost like he chooses what he bring on the floor for a season.
Bleh, can we just forget the third quarter ever happened?
With that having been said, will we even have an Acie sighting in this game? Woody’s at least put Solo on the floor for a token minute — but no Acie, or Mario for that matter. Heaven forbid should Joe or Bibby go down with anything serious — because those two will need to be ready.
Up by 10 with 51.4 to go, and still no run for those two.
We’ve looked good in spurts, but really didn’t put our heel to their throat until late in the fourth. Of course, that’s a good time to do it — but if we took care of business earlier, we could lengthen out the rotation.
Bleh, I’m sounding like a broken record — and I guess I should be happy with our record overall. But man, there’s a part of me that is really, really, scared of something happening to one of our key players (again) and then seeing Acie and Mario forced into more minutes before they’re ready — when they should be getting more minutes now.
You’re not the only one who’s scared about this. A bench that is limited will in turn limit you when you need it. A bench out of rhythm can’t help you get into rhythm when your starters are out of it. A bench that doesn’t play, won’t play well for you when called upon.
And if somebody gets injured, you’re screwed. Woody does this to himself. He shortens his rotation for reasons unknown to us. Then, when someone gets injured (and while we hope beyond hope, it may very likely happen again…it’s a long season), the rotation gets even shorter. Guys play more minutes. Harder minutes. Then they’re tired and out of gas. And then we’ll wonder why we can’t finish games.
Never diminish your team’s current record. It’s like not acknowledging that you have two fridges full of food. But never brag about the two fridges, and ignore the need to continue to stockpile food stuffs at a steady rate. Sure, we are a wonderful 19-10. But what will happen when JJ gets hurt? How about Al? Marvin? Josh? Even worse….Bibby?
Yes, I say even worse. Know why? Because if you’re looking closely enough, you are seeing this become Bibby’s team. JJ is the man, for what that’s worth. But he’s slowly no longer becoming the spear-head. It’s Bibby that’s trusting guys, and getting them going in the offense. It’s he that is throwing the ball up the court when the wings get out and run. JJ is going for his, and he’s getting it (he sure did tonight, did he not?). But he’s becoming more Michael Redd (yes, I stole that from my friend Sautee). A shooter. A gunner. The only difference is that he is still putting up good assist numbers. Most of that is not off of playmaking, though. It’s off of being trapped and drawing enough defenders to NEED to pass the ball.
But that’s just how I’m seeing it. I could be wrong. But I feel like the transition is happening right in front of us.
Yeah, I gotta agree it’s becoming Bibby’s team. He’s not the point guard I expected him to be for this team, and you have to give him props for getting everyone involved — even on those nights when he’s our best offensive option. But teams have to have a lead dog, and we have a good one in JJ, and we needed him to go for 40+ on occasion. A player that can do that, is a must for a team to go anywhere in the playoffs. Is there anyone else you want to see at the top of the key with the ball, less than 10 seconds to go in the game when your team’s down by one?
I mean, I love what Bibby’s brought to the team, JSmooth is JSmooth, Hordford is a young beast, and Marvin might eventually meet some of the expectations everyone has for him — but JJ is the stone cold killer this team needs. There’s only about a dozen of those cats in the NBA — and if you team doesn’t have one, you’re not going anywhere. That’s the difference between Dallas and the Lakers. Both teams have a ton of talent — but there’s a reason Kobe has about a dozen nicknames that all mean ‘killer’ in the end.
If there was a version of NBA Jam coming out today (anyone else remember that video game?), I’d be happy to have Bibby and JJ as my team. And for the Hawks, they provide the leadership, and scoring, and stone cold killer attitude we need to finally be winners.
For once, we’re winning the games we’re supposed to win. It wasn’t long ago when we would have found a way to lose these games. However, our defense was MIA tonight. This was the second time we let Rose get his career high — and 117 is too many points to be giving up to the Bulls.
Is it just something about Internet blogs where we just have to find the bad things? Can’t we be happy at 19-10, holding down a #4 seed, with Hollinger giving us a 97.3% chance of making the playoffs? I feel jaded sometimes — while I darn well know I better enjoy this while it lasts!
So, without further adieu — and I may not say this again — THANK YOU WOODY AND THE ATLANTA SPIRIT FOR GIVING US A GOOD TEAM TO WATCH!
One caveat to my Michael Redd comment. Ray and I were speaking of OFFENSE. Before anybody jumps on me, I’ll defend JJ for his defense, which Michael Redd cannot come close to.
And last night’s game was the first time since early in the season that Joe LOOKED like a $14M / Year player.
I’d like to see that at least every other game. Not the point totals, but WHERE he took the shots, and how he involved his teammates early enough in the clock that there was no desperation in their moves. There was a definite flow last night, which Joe can also at times grind to a halt by holding on to the ball too long.
Missed game, but there are still some seriously scary things lurking in the shadows.
I live with the fact that we don’t beat the will out of teams, the Hawks scrum throughout regardless of the level of competition.
Given that reality, I do wonder why Woody doesn’t give the bench more opportunities to play prior to the 4th quarter. They would get some experience (especially against weaker teams). This would have been a way to give the “I want to see more defense” message to the regulars. I don’t think JJ would pout if he averaged 38 mins a game. He and Woody remind me of John Cheney & terrance Stansbury at Temple in the 1980s. (Only player I knew of that averaged OVER 40 mins/game for an entire season in college.)
If you were AC would you want to extend your deal here or move on at the first chance to actually play? If you are Sund and you recognize that Woody won’t play much of a bench, why pay for guys that won’t play. I can see 8 good contracts and 6 or 7 minimums in the future.
…assuming Bibby continues to be successful, there will be very interesting negotiations this summer. How much do you pay for a crafty PG in his 30s who has lost a step when you are over the cap?
I am in total agreement that Woody needs to use the guys on the bench. We have enough talent on this team to play 10 guys a night. Getting minutes and production out of the forgotten guys (especially Acie) is actually crucial to the second half of the season and these guys are not a liability if used correctly. While Acie is not as good of a shooter as Bibby, he’s much better at breaking his man down, getting into the middle of the defense and creating opportunities for others. And he’s also better at defending quicker guards than Bibby. Not to mention, his attributes allow us to change our style of play and show the defense something different.
[...] I come back to find that The Big Three has been getting a little internet celebrity traffic! Big Ray from ajc.com was in the house just last week. Ya’ll go check out Ray’s blog, the guy is [...]
Not sure how that happened, Ray- I put a link to The Hawks Hacks on my blog, and the above link popped up here automatically. I was trying to direct traffic TO your site, not away from it!
In any event-
Games like the one Saturday are a result (much to some folks chagrin) of playing your starters heavy minutes. The chemistry with Atlanta’s starting five has been on a steep incline. I’m not saying these kids (Acie and Solo in particular) SHOULD be languishing away on the bench the way they are, but it’s hard not to notice the benefit. Williams and Smith are playing out of their mind. Horford rarely gets in foul trouble anymore…Woodson has (from what I’ve seen) made a conscious effort to pace Bibby- but with Flip Murray, who they paid big money to come in here and back up the point. I see no reason why Johnson, a 26 year-old superstar (yeah, I said it) in his prime should see any decrease in mpg. Dude is making McGrady money, and he’s playing McGrady minutes. Where does Acie get any pt? I could see arguing Acie OVER Flip, but I can’t see a decrease in Bibby and Johnson’s minutes. Not with the two of them playing at this level.
DecDawg, respectfully, there’s no way Law is a better distributor or better at “breaking people down” than Bibby. I think Acie could be a servicable guard in this league eventually, but right now Bibby is the better player (if slightly slower). Last year Bibby’s defense was suspect, but with the exception of freaks of nature like Rose, he’s done a good job on perimeter D.
BA, I agree with you that Bibby is a better player than Acie. I would never argue that point. But Acie is better at taking his man to the rack than Bibby. What Acie lacks is playing time to help his game grow. I’m sure you would have said the same about Rondo and Stuckey a year ago but look at what playing time has done for them. All I’m saying is that Acie’s can be a weapon for us. I’m not saying that he should replace Bibby but it is in our best interests to help him grow. Whether we are helping him grow to help us in the future or if we want a stronger bargaining chip for a trade. To let him waste away on the bench serves no purpose at all.
And for the record, Bibby is not nearly as quick as Acie and his defense is still suspect. But I understand that Bibby is maybe the most important piece to our puzzle (since he’s the only other person Woodson allows to shoot in the 4th quarter besides JJ).
I think Woody is finally trusting Josh and Al to handle the ball in the post, which is why you’re seeing more layups and dunks in recent games. I’ve been saying for a while (and so have many of y’all) that they need to be fed in the post more, and finally it seems to be happening. I was at the game against the Bulls on Saturday and I really liked what I saw — most of the time when Josh or Al got the ball down low, it either led to free throw opportunities, easy buckets for cutters, layups, or dunks, and it opened up easier perimeter looks as well.
I’m on the Free Acie bandwagon too (at the very least he deserves as much playing time as the ball hog Flip Murray) but overall I’m pretty impressed with Woody so far this year.
I don’t know what that was either, until I read your post, lol! Don’t sweat the small stuff, and I appreciate both your contributions AND your attempts to bring people this way. As I sit here, wondering if I should put up another blog…I have to say that there is an argument both for and against giving Acie PT vs Flip Murray.
On Woody….you either commit to the coach and what the coach wants, or you change coaches. It has to be one or the other, I think. Either give Woody what he wants/needs to do the job he’s being paid to do…or get somebody else in here. Until then, what to do with the guys who get no burn?
I’ll have to say that respectfully, I reject the either/or premise regarding Woody. Last season Ed Stefanski gave Mo Cheeks an ultimatum to play his young players more. And as we all know, it worked, The Sixers got better as the year went on. And yeah, I know what happened this year, but the point is that Stefanski, like Sund, inherited a coach (as opposed to hiring one), and still felt he could give some marching orders. And you’d have to say that beyond the Sixers’ struggles, that they are still better off for getting all that playing time for Williams, Young and their young bigs.
If you remember, Sund said early on that player development was to be a major point of emphasis. So what are we seeing? Journeyman vets getting most of the playing time off the bench, despite playing just like “journeymen”. Meanwhile a lottery pick languishes on the bench DESPITE playing well. And a promising 2nd rounder as well. If I thought they (Acie and Solo) had played WORSE than FlipMo I’d feel differently. But that’s not the case.
Has it been established if Acie was exclusively a “Billy Knight” pick? How much pull did Woodson have in the selection process? I think it’s safe to say Solo was a classic Billy Knight forward type of pick(of course, I know nothing for a fact).
So the debate is FlipMo vs. Acie/Solo? Flip has been streaky, and Evans shot has been off for a couple of weeks. But logic dictates that they’re paying these cats a signifigant amount of scratch. And I don’t think FlipMo has played poorly enough to justify replacing their minutes with the same inconsistent young players they were replacing in the first place. It might be a different story if the Hawks weren’t, say, 19-10!
A decade is long enough with the player development. Every team has three or four guys that almost never play. If two of our three are promising young guys, that bodes well for the next couple of years. I don’t think it means we play them if we don’t have too, especially during a winning streak. The players in front of these guys are for the most part young and hitting their prime, so naturally they’re going to play more minutes.
And yeah, I get Ray’s (and a lot of others) point in regards to injury. But consider this- we lost our second best player for a month, and they weathered the storm. Of course, with this “becoming Bibby’s team” (good line, that one) I shudder to think what would happen, starting Flip…
I said it on draft day two years ago, and I’ll say it again now: I’d rather have Acie than Conley Jr.
Look at Acie’s college career — the man could flat carry a team. He can pass, he can shoot and he can distribute. None of that has changed, except that he hasn’t been given a chance to do that in Woody’s system.
I don’t know if it’s because Acie hurt his ankle early in the season last year, or if he’s really in the doghouse, or if Flip has compromising pictures of Woody at the Hanna Montana concert from 2006 — but the bottom line is that a legitimate lottery pick is getting almost no run on a team that could use him.
Is Acie perfect? No. Does he have limitations at the pro level? Yes. But he can help this team, right now — and maybe even more in the future. Don’t forget, Bibby’s an unrestricted free agent after this season. If we were to lose Bibby, who takes over?
… oh, I think I just heard Speedy slip on a grape peal back in the player’s lounge area, be right back …
Sigh, it sounds like another 6-10 week recovery period for Speedy.
Anyway, the season is 82 games long. This is the period where you HAVE to work your role players into the system. If you run JJ and Bibby 40 minutes every night for the next two months — they’re going to be worn out — especially if they spend the energy on D that Woody expects them too. And yes, that was a run-on sentence and it still had the letter D and Bibby’s name in it.
Look, I don’t have a hidden stash of Acie jerseys that I’m speculating on, and if you want to take the majority of this post and swap the name Mario with Acie — I’m fine with that. But the problem remains that we need to get about 15 minutes of run a night for one or both of those guys and get JJ and Bibby down to more manageable minutes for a bit. We need this for both now and the future.
20-10. And for the most part, especially in the second half — we looked good. Denver really missed Nene though.
Flip and Mo got all the reserve minutes tonight. I’m beginning to believe that Woody is just not going to play Acie and Mario any meaningful minutes for whatever reason. However, at least he kept JJ and Bibby both under 40 minutes tonight, and that’s pretty important too.
I’m thinking more and more that Woody’s rotation preferences are a lot like Bobby Cremins’ ones back at Tech in the late ’80s. You get 5-6 guys and ride them hard, and one or two more who see a little time. I mean, me and Ray could have been bench players on those teams with Mark Price and John Salley. You would never know any differently from the score sheets, because the other eight guys on the team never sniffed the court.
But hey, we’re 20-10 for the first time in more than a decade. As long as we’re playing like we did tonight, I just have to remember that Woody is the NBA coach, and I’m the anonymous Internet blogger. One of us coaches an NBA team, and the other just thinks he can!
Monkeyman, the next blog article is titled “The Finishing Touch.” The link to getting here is bad, and the AJC techs haven’t yet put this blog out where it is supposed to be yet (it is the Holidays, after all), so you have to either find a link to it, or Google it. Sorry. And while you’re looking through “The Finishing Touch”, I’ll be writing a new one. Good luck finding it, and thanks for coming by….
The either/or approach is merely the beginning. It only stands to sense that you hold the coach fully responsible for player usage and development. I think the 2-year extension for is all about Sund getting the opportunity to assess Woodson over a reasonable amount of time. I don’t know how he feels about all of Billy’s picks. I’m sure he would not have picked all of the same guys. But he probably wants to see what Woody can do with what he feels is useable.
There’s a saying though: Every GM eventually wants to bring in his own guy. Maybe Woody is a guy that Sund likes. Maybe he wants to bring in his own guy. But Sund did not build this team. He’s responsible for brining in Morris, signing Hunter and Gardner, Murray, and Evans. He’s responsible for the loss of Childress and matching the offer Smith got from Memphis. That’s about it.
And yet…it begins with either building your own roster, whether you use existing pieces or blow the whole thing up and start from scratch (as Billy did), then either matching a coach to your creation, or committing the one you’ve already got. Everything else flows from there.
BA,
A very good record covers a lot of ills. Sund did say he was concerned with player development. If Bibby is re-signed for a few more years, then we have less to worry about at the pg position. However, we don’t know that this will happen. Neither do they. A good back-up plan would seem to be in order. Whatever it is (and you can only assume that it exists), it does not seem to currently include Acie. That’s all I can say there. As you rightly fear (and I’ve said it before myself), what happens if Bibby goes down for any significant length of time?
Every wave in the ocean breaks at some point…it’s a cycle of ebb and flow.
What happened to all those AJC sports writers that wanted to change the Hawks coaching staff? How stupid you look. These boys mesh with their coach,he earn the right to coach these boys throughout there Hawks career. Theres good chemistry there. You Crucified Micheal Vick and now you want us to rally around some slow white guy whose riding the back of two great running backs…. to h__ with the AJC writers and to h__ with author blank and the Blank falcons….Go Hawks….
So who does our newfound defensive stopper guard- Granger? I heard Daniels (the guy that wears hearbands similar to my daughters) went for damn near thirty the other night! If Atlanta can rebound half as well as last night, Murphy might dissapear. And it will be interesting to see how Big Al (no relation to Big Ray) handles Nestorovic this time around. Also, can Murray flip his switch like last night again? Is Woody REALLY going to put any of these kids in?
Also, on an unrelated note, how good is this team going to be when Childress comes back next year?
Well, for a new nickname for Mr. Williams, we could go with something like, “Marvelous” Marvin Williams — but that’s just too easy. I think we need to go the same route we took in coming up with JSmooth for Josh Smith.
With that having been said, I like ‘Momentum’ for Marvin. I’m not sure if that should be a stand alone, single name for him — like a super hero, or as part of his real name, like Marvin ‘Momentum’ Williams.
I like Momentum because that’s what he’s always been about. Getting better and gaining speed. When people were (and are) trashing us for taking him over CP3, Marvin never really bit on those sound bites. He just held his ground and started doing his own thing.
Slowly over the last couple of years, he’s started showing the promise we all hoped he had when we drafted him. And now, he’s gaining momentum — just like the Hawks — and in a positive manner as well! Momentum can be a bad thing in the wrong direction (See Detroit Lions, NFL).
But momentum also describes Marvin’s play most nights. He usually doesn’t come out trying to force his game, he just weaves his way into it. He might start with a help on defense, then a tip in off of the offensive glass, then a quick assist kicking out to an open three for Bibby or JJ. But by the third or fourth quarter — he’s everywhere, and when he’s on — you can’t stop him. That’s Momentum.
So, if we’re going to stick Marvin with a nickname, I say ‘Momentum’ is a good one for a good player trying to become a great player on a (hopefully) great team.
OMG! Ray gave Marvin props. Te he he. At the beginning of the year I thought Marv would get to that 18 ppg mark. I was wrong but as Ray said the overall improvement in his game is very noticeable even if the ppg have taken a slight dip. It is really exciting times to be a Hawks fan.
In the meantime, this is a ride to enjoy as long as guys are healthy and playing well. As we have a full squad this go round, I expect the Hawks to win tonight. There will be significant pressure from TJ Ford, but BK’s equal sizing player strategy seems to help a lot now that Woody’s defensive will is finally working on the team.
Not that I have anything useful on the Marvin nickname thing, but if I take some ideas and do a little mixing, I get HowarD (as in Howard the Duck http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_the_duck)
I have to agree with your two key points (Bibby & Marvin) being the biggest reasons for our improvement.
Another reason, which many discounted before this season, is the continued organic growth of our young guys (Smith, Horford & Marvin).
I believe “richbrave” or “Ken Strickland” mentioned this & was immediately chastised for their stance. Hard to argue with that now. Only Josh seems to make the same mistakes over & over & over & over ….
Tonights game should be important to the Hawks. We’re starting to beat the teams we should at home – let’s start beating them on the road.
Being a strong critic of Woody over the years – I will take this opportunity to give him his props! I still believe he is flawed in many areas as a coach, but right now all I can say is “Great Job Woody”!
I think more than anything ever since Bibby came, everyone on this team has just played smarter. Having a veteran with playoff experience can have that effect.
The Pacers are a better team than their record indicates. Marvin has done a good job playing man to man defense against some of the NBA’s best recently, and he’s gonna have to do the same against Danny Granger. The Pacers are missing TJ Ford, so they will have a harder time exploiting the Hawks’ vulnerability against quicker point guards. Another wrinkle the Hawks are gonna have to deal with though is that the Pacers now start Roy Hibbert, which gives them two 7 footers they can use inside between him and Rasho Nesterovic. If the Hawks can box out and keep Granger in check they should be able to win this game, but if they let the Pacers’ big men get boards easily they will be in trouble.
ray, are you doing most of the heavy lifting now, or is H.B. contributing anon? what’s Bibby’s assist to turnover ratio? that says a lot about how effective a pg he truly is.
Man, am I glad y’all found this blog! I hate talking to myself here (or anywhere else). Especially with my partner being AWOL (okay, I know where he’s supposed to be, but something tells me all computers have been hidden from him in the land of holiday in-laws).
Fudd21,
Hey, I have to give credit where it’s due man. I hear ya though, lol! I even have to give credit to Woody, but that I’m saving for another blog. I’d say I agree with you that Marvin now shows the absolute capability to be an 18ppg guy. On this team, I’m not sure he’ll ever be, not if we keep all the same players and play the way we’re playing. The scoring is still largely existing in the backcourt. But hey, if that’s the best way for us to win on most nights, then I’m cool with that. What I’m not cool with is not having a back-up plan when one of the backcourt guys is out. For right now, we better pray, and pray hard that this NEVER happens. Outside of Murray, we have no game-ready replacements. And Murray’s not exactly a replacement for EITHER guy.
Don!,
I still feel like I’m shouting at you, adding the exclamation point to your name. Dude, as far as I’m concerned, Marvin has arrived. I’ll always say that the Marvin vs CP3 argument is an unfair one. It always will be. The draft was all about choice and vision. Billy wanted what he wanted: a lengthy, athletic forward with some good skills. What he passed over was a very special point guard and team leader. A guy who is able to take a less talented group of players, and lead them into the second round of the playoffs. That’s what you draft a dynamic pg for. And that was something we needed, and FINALLY got in Bibby, though I don’t know if we’ll be able to retain his services beyond this season (not a comforting thought). Marvin is now doing what he was drafted to do. He’s doing what this team needs him to do. And that’s how I choose to judge him. Judging him against a guy our GM at the time probably was never interested in (and his head coach reportedly wasn’t either). It’s just not fair.
Having gotten over the CP3 thing, I prefer to compare Marvin to the guy he was set to replace: Harrington.
I agree. Organic growth has been instrumental in the improvement of this team. And yeah, Ken and Rich did take some flak over suggesting that this would take place. However, some of the noise being made over that had to do with the idea that all teams experience organic growth to a point. I think we experienced MORE at the right time, than did many other teams. Either way, Ken and Rich were correct. And Josh does seem to make some of the same mistakes over and over. It’s only a short few of them, like going for the 3 when he should be cutting to the basket, and trying to make a pass play at the wrong time. But he IS cutting down on ALL of his mistakes. A better point guard in rhythm with the team is definitely directly related to a better and more effective JSmooth. That’s what concerns me, though. If Bibby is ever out, will JSmooth still play within his game? He has to be mature enough to do so. But if you’re out there with a guy like Flip, who doesn’t do half the things Bibby does to get a guy the ball in the right place and play within the flow of the game….what will the reaction be? I think I know…
Najeh,
Your suggestion that we put a body on the Pacers bigs is probably the biggest key to winning this game. Nice call, and I think we’ll see the proof that you’re right within minutes…
BA,
I see JJ guarding (and neutralizing) Daniels. Marvin will get Granger. If there is a problem, perhaps Woody will switch things up. The defensive play of Evans and Murray will be a turning point too, I think, depending on how much they play.
Elmer Fudd,
Ando should be back around soon, though I haven’t heard from him in days. As for Bibby’s assist to turnover ration, I can’t remember the exact numbers, but it’s REALLY GOOD. I think it’s like 5.4 assists to 1.68 turnovers. Can’t ask for better. Gotta go for a few minutes guys. Keep posting!
Cool, this blog wasn’t getting much more “PT” than Acie. Glad to see it has surfaced to it’s rightful spot on the AJC website. Now let’s see if Acie gets comparable love from Woody.
Oh and did someone mention “organic growth”? Where have I heard that one before?
Ray, you can yell at me if you want to. It’s okay, I yell at the television (or computer monitor — thanks NBA League Pass) when the Hawks are playing (Or Falcons or Braves), and my wife yells at me because I’m yelling at the screen.
Up by 4 at the half, and Woody’s settled into a hard 8-man rotation. Joe’s at 20 minutes and Bibby’s at 19, Murray and Evans have 9 and 7 minutes of run respectively. So far, Acie has counted 15 splinters on the left side of the bench, while Mario has seen at least 12 from his seat. Speedy slipped and fell in the locker room, and he looks to be out another 4-6 weeks.
Anyway, we got off to a bit of a rough start, but finished the half on a good run. I’d like to see Solo in there, if nothing else than to get aggressive in the paint, and if he gets a couple of rough fouls in — that may be a bonus.
The scoring has been really even, with no one in double digits. All eight of the hawks who have seen the floor have found the hoop — and that’s a good sign. Ball movement is your friend.
Okay, the second half is about to start. I predict a 10-point Hawks win with a token Acie and Mario sighting with about 90 seconds to go. And just for laughs, I say Acie gets a late hoop on a 12-foot jumper.
To be clear… I also have very few unique views on these Hawks… that previous comment may have come across in the wrong way. I was mostly speaking inclusively… me too!
aj, that organic growth stuff started with you. richie hadnt arrived on the scene yet and ken was still over on the falcons blog saving the world from the savages. heh heh
Well, another win under the belt, and it feels pretty good.
Don!,
The bench comments were funny. Again, no playing time outside of the usual 8 guys. Not understanding it, but whatever. As long as the wins are coming, the decision to hamstring the bench goes unquestioned, I suppose.
Nice effort by Horford on defense and the glass. I love watching him work out there.
Josh Smith has been making a living in the post here lately. His post moves (he spins pretty good) look so much better than his attempts to shake and bake (he looks like he’s more likely to break his OWN ankles sometimes). As a result, he’s also been making a living at the line. And the final result? A couple of 20 point performances. I think we can expect to see more soon if he continues to play like this.
Bibby was his usual self: promoting ball movement, picking up a half dozen assists, and hitting some big shots when needed.
Another win on a tough test, on the road. Gotta love it. Momentum is a mutha….
As Doc said, the organic growth stuff DID come from you first. And I even recall who gave you the most crap for it: myself and dear ol’ Ando. You were right. I was wrong. Unique opinion or not. Looks to me like the organic growth has taken effect and been augmented by the Bibby effect. I knew you weren’t poking with the stick, but you still deserved the recognition.
Doc,
Now I KNEW you wouldn’t miss that one. Not a fella with a long memory like yourself, faced with an opportunityt to take a “hack” at a “hack.” LOL! Now where’s Ando to help fade the heat….
oh dear, seems like we might feel a little heat before it is all over. see a 6 team race in the east developing with the rest being pretenders. nets might yet join the party, bucks, knicks, maybe; rest seem done and can only play the role of spoilers.
Man, I feel like I just came off of an epic road trip. Flew back in to the ATL, from Philly, a few hours ago. It’s not that I underestimated the familial expectations for an audience with BABY GIRL, but I now feel a sense of what the Pope must experience.
I hope Ray’s back isn’t too sore, from carrying me the last week and a half. But these “real life” obligations were a major factor in setting up our blog in tandem.
Let’s get a ying-and-yang point out of the way: Astro Joe is solely credited with the term “organic growth”, as far as Sekou’s blog is concerned. Now, the yang is that I’m not sure how anyone can objectify how much that “growth” covers the current 21-10 record. Impact? No doubt. But if there’s anyone here who can firmly state what the Hawks record would be, without Bibby, Evans and Flip, then I’m listening, and ready to give props.
Truth is that every NBA team that’s ever made a leap has been a combination of developed youth and acquired veterans. Unless you believed the Hawks would never improve (which would be an odd perspective, given the upwards trajectory, annually, from the depths of a 13-win team), then ANY improvement from last years’ 37-win team would logically have some foundation from the youthful front line.
So here’s where the Hawks now stand: 21 wins, with 51 games to go. 26-25, the rest of the way, would mean 47 wins. But is there any reason to believe that a team who is 11 games over .500, after 31, should flounder in such a fashion?
Not unless they trade Mike Bibby. My long-standing prediction that they would, prior to the trade deadline, based on financial implications, looks shakier with every additional win. Not because I believe the ASG is reaping the additional, necessary revenues, to afford the current payroll. But because they seemingly have the opportunity to experience one of the rare seasons, in any sport, when everything comes together, and the teams’ chemistry is just right. Even if they are hurting, in this challenging economy, with the Belkin situation ominously looming, trading Bibby, in the midst of this kind of winning run, would likely be a public relations disaster.
They are now “in for a penny, in for a pound”.
These Hawks look like the fourth seed (though there are a couple of teams who present a plausible challenge to that outcome).
At this point of the season, any critiques, of the coaching staff or the players, is straight nitpicking.
This team is on a roll. There’s nothing much to do but kick back and enjoy……..
I think you’re right about who will join in the Eastern fray. My pick is the Nets, if they stay relatively healthy. Carter and Harris are LETHAL.
Ando!
Good to have you back. By the way, this blog is now in the position of the former Hack’s spot, in case you didn’t see it. Glad you’re around. I was having fun here, but kept drifting over to shadow-box with Kirk on Sekou’s blog. What can I say, we all have our vices. Sometimes it’s hard not to resist the bait when you know you can snatch the angler right into the water, reel and all…
No doubt that the Hawks 31 game record is not due exclusively to organic growth. It is related to all of the reasons discussed and one more that I haven’t seen mentioned.
Joe’s teammates are allowing him to be a SUPERSTAR in the 4th quarter. Bibby takes off a ton of pressure and has all but stopped opposing coaches from using their PG to double JJ. Flip has allowed JJ time to rest when he does his best Andrew Toney imitation in the first 3 quarters. And Marvin (organic growth Marvin), has significantly improved his defense so JJ doesn’t always have to guard the opposing team’s top wing scorer. In the past 10 games, we’ve watched Marvin play tenacious defense against the likes of Pierce, LeBron, Melo and Granger tonight. His offense may suffer but he has been outstanding with making those elite scorers work super-hard. All of that, Bibby, Flip and Marvin means that JJ has a little more in his gas tank for the 4th quarter. If we were to point to any one big difference with this team? They know how to win in the 4th quarter. They get on the strong backs of their excellent backcourt and ride those cats to a victory. I’ve actually grown to expect the Hawks to win games that are tight going into the 4th quarter.
It’s WAYYYY too early to predict playoff seedings… even if Chad Ford himself has penciled in the Hawks in the 4th slot.
Joe, I don’t know that saying the Hawks “look like a fourth seed” is the same as predicting their regular season finish. But barring major injury or the trade of Bibby, they do look like the 4th best team in the East.
Funny to see Ray highlight the Nets (and good to get on the phone and catch up with my fellow Hack). I thought the Nets, Heat and Bucks all projected to be better than most of our blog believed. Bucks have dealt with major injury issues,but should be .500 plus the rest of the way. The Heat just knocked off the Cavs, and, like the Pistons (with Dumars), are the most likely team to make a big trade (Riley rarely stands pat).
Then there is the Nets. Ray mentioned their back court, rightfully. But it’s the complement of young big men that make them potentially dangerous by the time the playoffs roll around. I don’t think it was a fluke that they beat the Hawks in that home-and-home, earlier this season. I think they’re the 5-8 seed that no one in the East will want to play in the first round (this season’s Hawks?).
Didn’t know Arenas and Haywood would be out the whole year (the most recent buzz about Arenas, at least), and honestly didn’t predict that both Philly and the Raps would play so poorly.
But that pretty much sums up how a 9th seed projection becomes a 4th-5th seed performance. It will always be easier to make predictions a few days before the regular season tip off. It will always be more fun to roll the dice of opinion 3 months earlier, right or wrong…….
Gotta laugh about the minutes guys played in the 60s versus now. These days pro sports are a year round deal with more emphasis on fitness to maintain those big paychecks.
We have a twenty one and ten team . . . but half the comments are complaints about the team. I have a feeling that if we were somehow 29 – 1, half the posts would be about that one loss. . .]
Ryan, just remember behind every silver lining — there’s a dark cloud.
A bunch of us here are folks scarred from the 13 win season of a few years ago. And the JR Rider trade before that. And trading ‘Nique … so, hopefully that might explain our mindset.
A number of us also believe that ‘Nique got shafted in the Slam Dunk contest with Jordan back in the day. So we not only have the recent past to temper our enthusiasm, but a healthy dose of conspiracy theory when needed as well.
Anyway, speaking of sliver linings, it looks like the links to the blog are pretty much squared away now. Hopefully that will increase the traffic and conversation here. Of course, we’ll probably get our fair share of ads trying to sell us male enhancement and/or weight loss products too …
Sorry, just had to throw that last line out there in the spirit of this post.
Anyway, I feel pretty darn giddy over being 21-10 at this point in the season — and I feel even better for going 43-42 over all of 2008. If we can keep that level of improvement up for 2009, we might be looking at putting up the first Hawks banner of some type in Phillips Arena pretty soon!
Well I see ajc finally got it together to give you bloggers a link on the sports page… lol. only took a week or two, eh?
I can’t comment much on the wins because I ‘watch’ the games on ESPN gamecast, which I happened to be doing last night, among other things. When Smooth missed 2 FTs and then shot a 3 point miss, with Hawks up by 1, I figured a loss was coming. Superstar Joe bailed him out again in the clutch.
I like the results but believe a better coach would find some minutes for Acie, so he will be ready when needed. Woody’s doghouse is deep.
Carry on!
I’d have to say that Josh helped in bailing HIMSELF out. After his bad 3 point miss, he hustled down and absolutely SMOTHERED Granger in his next shot attempt.
Great win for the Hawks last night. And if Devin Harris goes off again, I hope Acie gets a chance to play some D. (We could not stop Jack’s penetration in the 4th quarter last night).
Yes Sautee – that’s why my comments will be few here – I can’t tell that from stupid gamecast observance – did not pay for the Season Pass and the games are all blacked out here in NC.
You can always comment (and hopefully will) on things OTHER than what happened in the games. Keep coming around and jump in the pool with the rest of us.
Josh Smith is certainly the easiest guy to pick on, and that trend seems to continue. He scores twenty-four points last night on 7-13 shooting, and goes 10-14 from the line. He put the clamps on Granger in the last minutes of the game (something everyone else failed to do) by going after the guy himself (clearly that was NOT his defensive assignment). Yes, I know he had 5 turnovers.
But all people remember is that he made a bad pass here, or missed a shot there, or something. Why does the guy get blamed for everything that’s not right?
Bibby shoots 5-14 from the field, including 1-6 from 3-point range. Marvin shoots 3-10 from the field. But it’s Josh’s fault that the game was so close.
I only rechecked in via gamecast in last 2 minutes and saw: Atlanta up by 1, Josh misses both FTs, then misses a 3 he should only rarely be shooting anyways. At that point it does look to me like he’s ‘blowing the game’, regardless of what went before or after. So stuff your ‘unreal’. When Joe missed the FT to help lose against Boston I felt that was pretty bad also. You can’t miss those at those times. Josh does not get blamed about everything from me, Mr ‘unreal’.
Whatz good Big Homie, keep doing what you doing. I’m feeling this new blog. I’m flying back with the family Saturday night. I’ll be home for two day’s then I have to fly back to Philly for two weeks. I’m recording Saturday’s game, so I get to watch it on the big screen when I get home Saturday night.
**Whatz good Hawks family, I wishing you guys a safe and happy New Year.**
Ray, I agree Bibby and Marvin have changed the game for the Hawks. I like the old jj better than the new JJ. Furthermore I like the JJ that broke some ankles during the playoffs.
Damn Ray cut them some slack on Sekou’s blog ( I see your still killing them)
Yo, when I get home for good in two weeks, I’m going to print up some **Missing have you seen them t-shirts** It’s going to have Acie and Solo’s faces on them.
I have a very simple rule that I’ve always lived by on a blog: I call your name if I’m addressing you and your comments. So much is lost in translation on a blog as it is. Must we borrow more?
As it stands, I had just come from Sekou’s blog, where people were making comments about Smith being the reason for us having a bunch of close games, and how the last game was no exception. I hadn’t even read your comment when I was typing mine. I hadn’t read the surrounding ones, either. My point was that other guys have missed shots, taken bad shots, turned the ball over, etc. Others have done so with the game on the line. It’s not just Smith. And it’s not him EVERY game. That was my point, not to pick on Mountain Jim and his comments, which I more than welcome on this blog. And if you notice, I didn’t say that people were WRONG, just that they seem to remember what he does wrong, and rarely what he does right (even on a night where his offense was a big help).
Perhaps next time I make a general statement like that, I shall add “all gamecast subscribers excepted.” Just kidding. But you get my drift…
I agree that JJ’s free throw misses hurt in the Boston game. But I feel like that was more of an exception to the average situation. Against Boston, the game will always be tight for us. The average situation comes against other teams, where we often get good leads, then let them dissipate. Then, we’re stuck trying to make all the right plays at the very end of the game, sometimes putting the ball in the hands of those that aren’t the best option.
Another point I was trying to make has to do with design. Why is Josh the only guy open at times like when he took that 3 late in the game? Design. Why aren’t we setting screens to free up the better outside shooters? Design. Why does Josh have to come to the arc to GET the ball, when he should be getting it down low, on the block. You know, the place he scored from all night. The place where he earned 14 trips to the line that night. Design. You play how you practice….right?
Having said that, players are responsible for execution. But I’ve seen this way too often to believe that it’s just the same person screwing things up all the time while everybody else is doing what it takes to win the game. But that’s the impression you get from a lot of people.
But just so we’re CLEAR…I’m not accusing YOU of being one of those people.
Thanks for that clarification and sorry for my assumptions, Big Ray.
I envy you guys that are seeing this great Hawks resurgence season on TV or in person most nights. I could not justify the League Pass expense, with my work being contract based and in question this fall, and after spending on the NFL Ticket to see all the Falcons games (boy that was an excellent investment this year also).
DirecTV does not consider me in Charlotte’s region either, here in WNC, so any games on the sports channels (FSS, etc) are blacked out for me. Sounds like collusion that’s unfair but what do I know. I would like a package where for a lesser dollar amount I could see one team’s games, rather than all teams.
It’s no problem, bro’. I understood where you were coming from. I wish there was better coverage for you, too. I’m likely to believe it’s collusion on the part of cable/satellite companies. Like you, I can’t prove it, but hey….makes you feel better saying it at least!
The Falcons have definitely been worth the investment, whatever money people have spent to see them! The Hawks have too, although the franchise future remains in doubt with an ownership court decision due next month. Who knows, it might not even be over then….but enough trying to find the dark cloud behind the silver lining. Hopefully, things turn out really well.
Lacsho,
How good to hear from you, man! Glad to hear that the job is going well, and you got to spend precious time with your family, too. Definitely get at me tomorrow night. You know I’ll be there.
Whoooeee! 35-21 Hawks midway through the second quarter, and we are ROLLING. Lawrence Frank just got tossed from the game a couple minutes ago, and his high-scoring backcourt isn’t going SQUAT right now. YOUCH!
Early action for the bench (although it’s still the usual suspects), and since I haven’t seen the game from the very beginning, I’m wondering why. Did anybody get injured? Did I miss something? Who knows…What I do know is that Zaza has already played twice the minutes that Horford has. Flip and JSmoove are off to fast starts, and the Nets are having a tough time of it. I’m guessing Woody has Pachulia in the game early to help against the size of Brook Lopez and company. If so, it’s a smart move.
Ah, here’s Horford, back in the game…next to Zaza. This could get interesting…
Uh-oh. Harris is turning on the jets, blowing right past the whole defense out on the break. Bibby just got a tech….
Two great passes by Josh Smith down low on consecutive possessions, but no conversion either time. Damn.
Holy! What a steal and then 60 foot heave by Mario West for the 3 to end the first half!!! Surely that’s worth another 60 seconds on the Woody play-o-meter!
No, the defense isn’t that good, as the third quarter is clearly showing us. Caught up to us, it did. The Nets are shooting rather well, and we aren’t clamping down on them. Perhaps we bought into thinking that New Jersey’s struggles was a direct result of our defense. Not so…
Again with the play where Josh comes out to the perimeter, receives the ball, and takes the 3. This is a PLAY! Why is it a play?! ARgh! Maybe one day he starts hiting that shot, but I’d much rather see him develop a midrange jumper like Marvin had…then he can move out to the arc when he gets it down.
JJ going for it all towards the end of the 4th wasn’t pretty. I think the play we SHOULD have run would’ve looked like this: Joe draws one or two defenders, then one of our guys goes up and sets a screen on Bibby’s man, freeing Bibby up for an open jumper.
Here we are, down by three and scrambling on defense like we don’t know what we’re doing. We can talk all day about missed free throws (Horford), missed 3s and turnovers (Josh), missed shots in general (JJ), and so on. But two things are beating us: an embarassing rebounding differential, and even more embarassing defensive effort. Starting in the 3rd quarter, the Nets have had free looks from the perimeter. And it hasn’t stopped.
WOW. A great defensive effort on Devin Harris by Smith and Mo, followed up by a great run downcourt by both guys, with Smith converting on the layup that gave us a slim 1 point lead.
Joe still has a tendency to try and be the hero, even when his teammates are the ones getting things done. It’s almost as if he says “okay, time for me to take over” instead of maintaining the growing momentum by playing within the flow.
And the love him or hate him Smith showed his ying and yang again tonight. Another player who can get caught up in gaining hero status. One step forward… one step backward. Tremendous athletic play gives way to mental meltdown.
The best part of tonight’s game (IMHO) was how well Woody coached the game. I thought that he did a great job of protecting JJ after he picked up his fifth foul. Dude probably played close to 10 minutes of court-time with 5 fouls. Woody did a nice job of having Marvin pick up Devin, Smith on Vince and used Evans during late game offense/defense possessions. And having Solo come in to guard the inbounds pass was terrific. I watched NJ beat Toronto (I think) a few weeks ago when Simmons threw a perfect lob to Vince for an easy dunk to win an OT game (I’m pretty sure that there were less than 2 seconds on the game clock). Woody forced NJ to run a different play (although Vince still had a good look at the goal when he missed the shot at the end of regulation)… but it’s always better to force a 20 footer than allow a dunk.
Hawks face a great test tomorrow night against Houston. Do they bounce back and continue to defend their home court or do they wallow in self-pity (or worse point fingers to everyone who was culpable for the loss) and create a 2 game losing streak?
To simplify tonight’s outcome, posted on New Years’ Eve:
“Then there is the Nets. Ray mentioned their back court, rightfully. But it’s the complement of young big men that make them potentially dangerous by the time the playoffs roll around. I don’t think it was a fluke that they beat the Hawks in that home-and-home, earlier this season. I think they’re the 5-8 seed that no one in the East will want to play in the first round (this season’s Hawks?).”
There are times that I wish I had sprung for the NBA League Pass. Times like tonight. Josh nearly gets 30, and Bibby hits the game winner. And all most of us get to do is stare at a box score.
You’re about two or three blogs behind, bro’. Fast forward to “Two out of Three” and you’ll be up to speed. A new blog is coming out this afternoon, though.
i think he is more of a student of the game than most give him credit for. it is because of his innate abilities that he plays it at a very rarified level and is either death defying when it works or stupid when it doesnt work. what seems impossible to ordinary folks he seems to take as mundane so we will have to deal with the mercurial aspect of this hero as he learns to control his powers, i think the injury has allowed him to begin to manifest this sooner. it reminds me of the character in the movie that will smith played this summer. oh it was fun to see j smash last night.
The current mix of this team requires Smith to do more inside than on the perimeter. However, his best long term options would be to develop that outside shot at some point down the road. He doesn’t have to be a great, shooter, but good enough to make a pump fake on a jump shot slow down the defense.
Now I didn’t see that movie to which the good doc refers, but I caught a minute of it on cable. Not sure the ending worked out well for W Smith. Hopefully J Smith as a better ending.
Whether he is getting it or not, even if Josh Smith doesn’t ever improve for the rest of his career his positives still far outweigh his negatives in my opinion.
I still think if the Hawks’ offensive system had more clearly defined roles for each player his turnovers and ill-advised shots wouldn’t happen so much. Woody still hasn’t decided whether he’s a do-it-all swingman, a post playing big man, some combination of the two or something totally different. Clearly Josh has a lot of skills that are each usually found in very different kinds of players, and the coaching staff hasn’t quite figured out how to deploy him in a way that gets the most out of his skills. I do think they are making progress in that area though, which is also why we are seeing him “get it”.
If he could develop a reliable mid-range shot and a go-to post move, he would really be unstoppable. In both those areas he has improved but he’s still a work in progress. As far as his problems with turnovers on the fast break, it would be nice if a) he was more willing to give the ball up to one of the guards early on the break, and b) the guards were able to keep up with his speed as he runs down the court.
Wow, nice to see a blog where posts show up immediately after you hit “submit”… wonder why they can’t apply this new-fangled technology to all the other blogs too?
It always shocks me how much ink JSmoove gets compared to the other Hawks players. It is so obvious that Smoove’s game and his approach to the game far surpass where he was this time last year. Pre-injury Smoove was in some ways better than post-injury Smoove – but wouldn’t you expect that? Without him on Saturday night, the Hawks were doomed.
The real conversation should be about Joe Johnson and what he does/doesn’t bring to the party every night. While brilliant one-on-one offensively, his defense is sometimes lacking; his shot selection can be questionable; and he seems at times moody, self-absorbed, and disconnected from his teammates. We all see Woody publicly casitgating Smoove but never a word for JJ. Smoove isn’t 19 anymore. It’s time for a more mature approach to a more mature player.
The reality is that what makes us all sometimes cringe, isn’t always about the play of Josh Smith. Josh’s desire and athletic abilities are evident the minute he walks on the court. You can see that he wants to be a leader even though this is and should be JJ’s team. However, the examples of leadership that he has to follow, whether they be Woody or JJ, are clearly works in progress as well. While Pfund works with both Woody and JJ on this skill set, he would be wise to spend time with Smoove also.
If there is one area of his game that needs work, it’s his handles. Josh has to work on his dribbling in order to capitalize on his explosive first step to the basket. Too many times he starts his move to the basket or attempting to get out and lead a break; he dribbles the ball off of his left leg or foot. The ball also makes for an easy target for steals and disruptions because he dribbles it so far away from his body. He fixes the handles and continues to be a student of the game, he’s golden.
I don’t see Josh’s outside shot greatly improving during his career. He should spend his time focusing on his low post skills and ballhandling (so that he’s more dangerous driving to the hole). J-Smoove only becomes J-Smash when he gets to the rim. Outside 12 feet, he’s actually among the least smooth/smoove forwards in the league.
Matt, I have to agree with you on that one. I think with his speed and athleticism if he just concentrated on his low post game and drives to the basket he would be very hard to contain. There are many 4’s that could stay in front of Josh if he attempted to go to the hole. Even when he is wide open on the perimeter. With his outstanding leaping ability Josh is never more than 2 dribbles and 2 steps away from getting to the rim. Stop trying to show that you can be effective outside shooter and do what you do best. Heck the good doctor couldn’t shoot a lick from the outside but that didn’t stop him from being of the best of all time. Go to the hole young fella!
Great comments fellas! I concur wholeheartedly with Gmoney. JJ does look moody out there. It’s as if he’s going through something at home? Hate to speculate like that but I have yet to see him smile this year. Is that his game face? I don’t know but it’s kind of discouraging as a fan because you like to be able to get a read on your team. Even Nique was shock to see Joe dunk the other day. Do a shimmy shake or something Joe. You’d be amazed at how the team follows your swagger. Better yet get a tech when the opposing team fouls you for the 5th time dang! Love ya Joe, but the better you get the more we depend on ya! Believe that! Great post Ray!
Josh still seems to be working his way back physically, in my opinion. He’s obviously healthy enough to be out there, but he hasn’t quite gotten his explosiveness back yet. Maybe he still needs to build up some strength in his legs. Nice to see him have that kind of day offensively. All I can say is…wow. All 5 of our starters are capable of putting up 20 on any given night – that’s tough for opposing defenses. We’ve got some real weapons now. And how about Joe with 14 dimes the other night? Dude’s averaging 22/6/5. Incredible. If he keeps this up he’s going to make a run at MVP. Great to see the Hawks come right back after the tough loss at NJ as well. Frustrating to see them blow a 20 point lead, but at least they got over it quickly.
The Hawks don’t seem to play with the same energy in the first quarter and when they get leads. Their lock down defense is exellent in the 4th quarter or when their behind. I would like to see the bench much earlier in the first quarter including minutes for Law and Solo. Playing 10 throughout the first half would set up for fresher legs in the 4th quarter. Imposing our will through defense will determine how far the Hawks will go. Gotta have fresh legs to play 48 min.
JJ and Bibby are getting better at finding the big men in a position they can score or pass. The increased scoring of Smooth is a result. Smooth is not a post up player and may never be. He is exellent reciving and scoreing in motion. Watching Smooth attack the hoop after a well deliverd pass and ZaZa and Big Al crashing the glass is a thing of beauity. With Smooth we will just have to live with a few turn overs. He more than makes up for them with his blocked shots and steals. Have you noticed our assist totals? In theory 20 assists is a bench mark for an unselfish team. When the Hawks are “cooking with bacon fat” their totals are closer to 30. I have never critized JJ in a blog, but as the Hawks mature I would love to see his assist totals go up and the number of his shots go down.
I got to disagree. I’m not impressed by what Smith has done lately at all. How can a starting PF in the estern conference avg 5.3 rpg in 6 games. Are you kidding me? His ability to block shot has disapeared, and his defense, even though it was never great, it’s worse now that he’s not 100%. He still keeps taking long jump shots, which I still don’t get. Then, Woodson tried to isolate him down in the post, and guess what, we had a turnover machine right there. Smith has talent, do not get me wrong, what he doesn’t have is the hunility to understand that there’s things you do to help your team win and others you just got to stop doing if you do not wantto hurt your team. Every time he touches the ball, it’s like I’m about to have a heart attack…
Josh has great skills. He needs to let the ego go! If he could get the ball at the top of the key every other play I’m sure he could be a dunk and dish (18pts/10rbs) type player which is always good. But he needs to learn this…when you get older the vertical isn’t always going to be there. He must attain better ball handling, and a mid-range jumper. Plus, let the gaurds and swingman gaurd/forwards shoot the 3’s man!!! It pains me to have to watch Josh shoot anything outside 15 feet in a close game. I know Josh hates Woody telling him anything, but he needs to listen to the fans here, you’ll be a better player by bulking up, working on the mid-range jumper and using your athleticsm to create better shots for your team-mates. Not to mention the work he does on the glass and blocking shots already makes him a great defensive player. If he isn’t willing to do whats best for the team, then he needs to go! Ask Ben Gordon…he has had the same problems in Chicago, he wont adapt to what the Bulls need him to do. He’s on his way outta there. Maybe Josh would do better as a 6th man? That way he gets his shots and we get a real power forward or center for that matter.
I agree 100% with LTLT when is this guy going to listen to his coaches, he is a basket head who is not going to improve or listen to his coaching staff. I was his biggest fan until the end of last season, but all the turnoves, all the outside shots and all the careless passes has to stop, he needs to listen to his coach if he is going to get better, i mean after waiting 5 years and 58 million dollars the guy still doesn’t get it and hawks fans are just tired of waiting for him to change, he is not going to change, i hope for the sake of the fans this guy is going to listen to his coaching staff asap.
Listen fellas damn! Josh Smith became Josh Smith of the NBA because of his game! Not for what you think his game should be! All he needs is a Hakem the Dream shake and bake fadeaway and a two dribble fake and he will be a hall of famer! Stop with all the other stuff. He’s working with the Dream in the off season and one day it will pay off. I only seen him use the shake and bake fadeaway one time in the game. Hell he looked more shocked then me that he tried it(lol)! Woody has changed his tactics when it comes to Josh because I don’t see the venom any more when Josh comes off the court. Chill, I see a new horizon. He’s a competitor who will make you eat your words! Ray once again… Great post! You or Ando need to analyze and challenge JJ. He needs it!
Okay, here’s the thing, I think that the worse thing that Josh Smith can do is take a three pointer, and hit it. Because at that point, he becomes, in his mind, a three point shooter, and while he’s not a terrible three point shooter, it so let’s other teams off the hook when he settles out there. What I think, for what it’s worth, is that Josh Smith needs to develop his inbetween game. If he could drive, stop on a dime and shoot a 10 to 15 foot jump shot with accuracy, there isn’t a defender in the league that could stay with him. That was the shot that took Jordan from being athletic to being great. But his defense is what makes him so valuable. For every time he turns the ball over, he changes three or four shots by virtue of just being in the game. He’ll never get defensive player of the year, until Kevin Garnette retires (God let it be sooner than later), but that’s where his game is.
Oh and Elmer Fudd, if indeed that is your real name, we toasted King James the last time Cleveland was in town as I recall, and they have a much better supporting cast than New York, but then again New York did beat Boston… I guess according to Kevin Garnette the Celtics and the Nicks have a rivalry now. I think the Celts are one of the few teams in Basketball with a rivalry against the Nicks… Go figure.
I took my father (not a person who follows the NBA at all) to the OKC game & his comment about Josh was, “The guy looks like he’s trying to do things beyond his abilities.”
I’ve made the Brett Favre analogy before – He brings you to your feet multiple times during a game. 1/2 you scream for joy, the other 1/2 you scream WTF!!!
How do you know he’s not listening to his coaches? Are you there with them at practice? Who do you think draws up the plays, the players? If Josh is stationed at the 3 point line, it’s because that’s the DESIGN of the coaches. If THEY have that kind of faith in him, you’d think that his “biggest fan until the end of last season” could also.
Do you KNOW that he’s a basket head? Do any of you know Josh personally?
LTLT,
You DO know that he’s not yet 100% right?
His rebounding totals will rise throughout the season as his ankle improves. If you’ve watched then you know that it’s certainly not for lack of effort. In fact, he should be lauded for struggling along for the last 10 games or so, giving what he could to help the team. That’s CERTAINLY NOT selfish.
And yet because he makes some dumb mistakes, you’ll throw him under the bus.
twenty and ten,
How do you know that Josh hates Woody telling him anything? Both Josh AND Woody have called this story a lie and say they have totally patched up any differences. Did you know that? Or do you know either of them personally?
LayupDrill.com: How is it playing alongside a veteran like Mike Bibby?
Acie: Its great. He’s a cool dude and since the first day he’s gotten here he’s taken me under his wing and taught me so much. Having him here is better preparing me for when its my time to take over the team.
I’ve always said that I believe Smoove have a better post game than even he himself realizes. Both he and Horford have good hook shots. You see Horford using his far more than Smoove, but one thing to realize is that Smoove is rarely positioned in the post. Somebody has already said something about Woody not really having defined roles in the offense. At times we’re seeing Josh just hanging around the perimeter for some odd reason when he is probably the best rebounder we have on the team you’d figure that he would stay in the post more.
I also agree that he has to at least develop a mid-range jumper at least. If only he had Horford’s mid range jumper. Add that plus a hook shot, and rarely that quick spin move he uses for a finger roll to the basket and he would be as dangerous in the post on the offensive end as he is on the defensive end.
As far as JJ goes….I actually like this new JJ – the one that is playing with a bit of anger…like an assasin or something. I want to see Joe drive to the hole more and throw it down like he did the other night. I think we’re finally starting to see JJ a little angry about the no show of respect that he gets from around the league. He’s starting to let the refs know a bit more nowadays about the no calls. I don’t believe there is an off court issue with Joe. I still see him joking around with the guys like last year, it’s just that he’s starting to show a little bit more emotion now while playing the game and he’s also starting to use it which I think makes him as dangerous as other super stars around the league.
I think that JJ swagger came from hanging around Mike Bibby. Josh & Mike seem to play with a chip on their shoulders. Because Josh was younger, it did not come off the same way as it does with Bibby. That is the intangible that I like best about Bibby. You might be a little faster and stronger than he is, but he has the confidence that makes you think he will find a way to make a difference.
jhan
Isn’t that the fan value of Josh (& Brett Favre.) You don’t know what you will get out of them, but it will be exciting. Almost NASCAR-like. It is a daring pass or a fantastic wreck. Either way, you pay attention when they play because you know something interesting will happen…good or bad.
I think working on his handle would provide an immediate impact on his game, it could potentially eliminate 50% of his turnovers. He has the quickest explosion to rack on the squad except for Acie. With improved ball handling Smoove will be unstoppable going to the rack.
I agree with Doc, I think Smoove will always drive us crazy because of his pageant for the spectacular play. He definitely has a flair for the dramatic. That’s why they call him the highlight reel, and that what makes him special…he is not afraid to try, and he not afraid to fell. Plus he atones for his mistake by hustling his Assss Offffffff!!!!
He can be an Enigma on one play and a Super Heroe on the next. One thing for sure, I’m glad he is still an Atlanta Hawks. I think more than anything Smoove is benefiting from the new commitment by the Hawks to get the ball in the post.
I would also like to see to Smoove add some more bulk to his frame for the rigors of banging in the post.
Maybe it’s my contrarian nature, but I find myself at contretemps with many of the comments here. Lacking a more refined way to approach it, I’m going to just start at the top, and speak my mind:
doc, the idea that Josh is “more of a student of the game” directly contradicts the statement his “innate abilities” lead to his “very rarified level” of play. He’s a savant, pure and simple. Instincts and athleticism are the antithesis of floor analysis. His defensive stats are the byproduct of the former, not the latter.
Najeh, yes. A low-post game, and a consistent outside shot make Smith a Hall-of-Famer. But if he doesn’t develop those things, he’s still incredibly valuable, not unlike either Marion or AK47, neither of whom have ever improved in their similar areas of limitation. He’s just now at the age that Jermaine O’Neal first became a force. The fact that the team (read: Woody) continues to pass him the ball out on the perimeter, despite his ongoing limitations from that distance, is not his fault. And it is positive that he’s continued to limit his attempts from that range, over the last 12 months (starting about 15 games into last season). As far as giving the ball up on the break, Smith continues to accumulate assists at a rate that exceeds most PF’s in the league, highlighting a natural court vision. We hope that decision making improves with age, but it never really did with guys like Antoine Walker, despite his solid assist numbers.
G Money: how much better, realistically, can the handle of a 6′9, 240 lb forward become? I have no reason to believe he hasn’t been working on it every time he takes the floor. From what I’m hearing, collectively here, Smoove should develop the low-post game of Amare, the long-range touch of Michael Redd, and the handle of Magic (since we’re talking about 6′9).
I would say that we should expect subtle improvements in all areas of his game, given his age. But we’re not be realistic, or fair to Josh Smith, if we’re seriously expecting him to develop an unstoppable low-post game, a JJ-esque outside shot, and guard-like handle. I mean if he did everything you guys want, would he be, essentially, Lebron James?
And speaking of JJ, how can anybody seriously critique his production, and value, for this team? So he doesn’t talk trash, or do funky dances. Used to be that his type of style was the definition of a pro’s pro.
If it wasn’t for his combination of scoring and play-making ability, Mike Bibby wouldn’t be having a career-resurrecting season (well, that and the not-surprising fact that it’s a contract year).
How does anyone find fault with a guy that’s (as Manny pointed out) leading the league in minutes, averaging 23 ppg, 6 dimes and 5 boards, while his team has the best franchise record in over a decade? Over the last five games JJ is averaging 8.6 (8.6!!!!) dimes a game! From the TWO!!!!!!!
Shimmy shake? Really?
Da Real Real: Gotta disagree, though I think I understand what you’re saying. Watching Josh try and score on the block is painful. And knowing how athletic he is, and how long he is, it jumps out at you that, surely, he’s got more low-post game than he’s showing. But, so far, not so much. I can’t explain, or even understand, how he hasn’t been able to develop a couple of go-to moves down there. But game after game, it’s pretty clear he hasn’t. I honestly cannot figure out how he still lacks a Al Harrington/ Rasheed Wallace/”insert name of any solid big man in the league” turn-and-fade. And maybe I’m putting the cart before the horse, since that shot is a little more challenging than a drop-step, jump hook.
But, again, given his X-factor status, for this team, both on defense, and in transition, I think we’re still splitting hairs on a 22-23 year old.
Finally, Mike is Back: you want Josh to improve his handle, AND add bulk to his 6′9, 240 lb frame. Make up your mind, bro. He can’t, simultaneously, become Karl Malone AND Magic Johnson (pre-AIDS).
I think folks (or more likely, Josh and the Hawks) are going to have to pick a point of emphasis for his improvement. He either needs to become a versatile forward, with an emerging low-post game, or a versatile forward with a dangerously consistent outside stroke. Combined with is other-worldly athleticism, either one would transcend him to the level of superstar. But expecting both is unrealistic and unfair.
First of all, Congratz on the new spot Ray and Ando.
Now I know smoove works hardand although I too hold my breath when he takes a shot. It’s not because I don’t want him shooting it. It is because I want him to prove the doubters wrong. He was won his fair share of games with his outside shot in the waining minutes of a game on a number of occasions. Sometimes he’d done it early, like when Cleveland came to town and his shot was on early.
Like Doris Burke of ESPN said during last seasons playoff series’: “Once he develops his jump shot a little more, forget about it! He won’t be stopped.”
I personally have no problem with him shooting them. You cannot succeed without failure, and Smoove is one heck of a ball player. Once Mark Price has him for a whole off-season up at his shoting clinic at the Suwanee Sports Academy we’ll all be witneses lol.
Smoves post-Game needssome polishing up though. But we’re all just being nit picky. Smoove is a Force I know he will continue to improve his game, but i’m certainly not dissatisfied with his current skill level.
Ariose,
You’re right about being nit-picky. Again, as I said before, if we were as nit-picky about everyone else’s game, we’d find a lot more to nit-pick about.
Ando,
I agree with you that we can’t have everything (maybe). I myself feel that Josh wants to have a game that is more suited to be like that of Magic. He finds himself with the rebound or steal and wants to lead the break (instead of passing); he likes finding the open man; and while he fails miserably sometimes, tries to make the almost impossible pass inside. He doesn’t seem to relish banging inside although he does when necessary rather preferring to linger a bit outside the 7-8 foot mark and use his quickness to get to the ball/space/defensive spot. That’s just what I see from my seat.
As for bulking up, I’m not seeing that for a few years (as it comes naturally). Tomorrow will be interesting…let’s see…Rashard Lewis. oh yes, 6-10 and averages 20 pts and 6 boards with a salary of $16K annually. I’ll take JSmoove/Smash for $10K annually, 15pts and 7 boards a game (and top ten in bpg once he plays enough games).
G Money, you are on point with Smoove wanting to be more of a Magic type player than a banging PF. Which leads to what many on SS blog have been saying since last year. If and when the Hawks get a legit center, Josh would be better suit for the 3 with Al at the 4. Therefore, he should continue to work on the shot and ball handling and add a couple post moves for gravy.
Ariose, well let him shoot them once he has spent that summer with Price. I personally don’t believe Josh will ever be a consistent shooter whether it be from mid-range or deep. Which leads me to be against him sliding over to the 3 unless a shooting center is brought in. (Yes I know that has been beaten to death, sorry)
The handles, yes everyone probably could improve their handles. But Josh needs to realize that he doesn’t have to cross-over, go behind the back, spin or any of that to get to the hole. He can simple beat other 4’s with his quick first step and go straight to the hole.
The stop on the dime pull up jumper. His shot is too long for that. If you notice Josh has like a wind up to his shot. You can’t do that when you’re trying to stop on a dime and elevate. His shot would have to be totally revamped for that.
If he wants longevity in this league, he better become a dominate post player with a decent 12-15 ft jumper. Once the hops go away along with the speed we are looking at a low budget chris webber on his last leg.
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As much as I like JSmoove’s game, you’re dead on about him needing to improve his post-game and for all the applause about Marvin Williams; he needs to do the same. I still see Marvin trucking over people down-low drawing numerous charging fouls with some of the worst foot work I’ve ever seen down low. Neither of these guys seem to have any rhythm or any reliable consistent post moves in this regard. True, Marvin has improved other aspects of his game and he and Smoove’s effort is always there, but for this team to take it to the next level they need to improve their post game moves/footwork or get a guy that can do that. I think they’re still young and can improve over time, but right now they are not there. Having said that, I hope they do. As far as the backcourt, I do not believe Bibby gets enough credit for the affect he has had on this team. When you think of all those dreadful years of finishing dead last, it was the point guard position that was THE worst and that’s saying a lot for this team where holes were everywhere. Now we have a legit point and look where this team has gone since- a incredibly exciting playoff berth and this year a better than usual record this far into the season where at least we are beating teams we are supposed to and putting fear in others. Joe Johnson on the other hand is who is – a guy that carries this team more than a lot of guards in the league carries their teams more often than not. I’m not seeing the moodiness and detachment that another blog claims, just a guy with a overly quiet personality and guys like that always get accused of such things. His personality aside, where would this team be without him? As the season goes on we’ll see what these guys are all made of together when it counts and then we’ll also see if Woody is the guy to lead them. Something I’m still, despite the record, skeptical of. Hopefully he’ll prove me wrong cause sometimes I don’t believe he he is.
And btw, what is up with Speedy Claxton? I last heard him having a hamstring injury in the pre-season and he hasn’t played ONE time since. Did his hamstring explode or what? Gheesh! I’m tired of seeing this guy in business suits every freaking game collecting checks and doing nothing for us…
Good posts most everyone. Josh is growing up and it will all come together by the end of the season – just in time for the playoffs. I just have a question about Randolph Morris. Is he still on the team? Is is hurt? Why has he not gotten more playing time. I have noticed Kwame Brown has been improving quite a bit with the time he’s getting in Detroit. IF Morris is not going to contribute, what’s the chance of us getting one of the big men from OK or Memphis during the season? Or, are we good enough the way we are now?
I agree with most of what I am reading here. I think that he still needs an inside game. The jump hook or baseline move would mix everything up and give him time to develope the mid-range jumper. He makes me think of MV7 in that he can make the play that makes you say “damn” but is still unpolished in other areas. I think that you need that “wow” factor on your team; it brings excitment from the crowd, fear from the opposing team. I think it is that “what’s next?” factor that keeps teams/coaches guessing. If you can keep that and add a consistant jumper then you have a mature JSMOOTH/SMASH. “Wow”.
i think the josh intuitive mind will continue to grow as he sees the court differently. whether you admit it or not the team is playing team d. somehow it means josh is learning to stay home more and play his position. he is educable even if it is at a different level. josh has a brain not sure mv7 did. HG that is where the comparison ends.
ando, hasnt josh been doing something more than working on his innate game the last two summers? book it, he will be a complete player when he leaves the game. his numbers will be among the elite if his body holds up.
Maybe the shimmy is asking to much. I wasn’t serious. However, what was important in my last post was that fact that he really needs to be more demonstrative! To us there is no mistaking JJ’s abilities. However, if I’m a ref, the beauty of your moves don’t always garner my respect. You have to make me believe you are the best there is on the court. Speak to me! Tell how good your are. Make me love and envy your game. I’m a ref buddy(not really)! I make judgement calls. Sometimes you have to TESTIFY! Show me your swagger! Get my addrenaline flowing. Make me go home and watch the tape baby! If you think these things don’t matter in a game then maybe you are not paying enough attention to the psychological side of it all! Now if you don’t like the shimmy, maybe it don’t work with you. Maybe you’d be the ref that I would pat on the azz or something? Let me say this… You can be the showman and have the skill or you can just have the skill and hope to get recognized? But when I look in your eyes, I better see the answer I’m looking for or you ain’t gettin the call! Hate me… I’m the REF!!!
I’m with ‘ole HB on Johnson and the refs- it’s chemistry. Bibby and Smith, for example, are demonstrative enough (in concert with BWAF Woodson) for the whole team. I’ll take my do-it-all star with an old school attitude anyday. Who doesn’t get tired of seeing the Bean or Garnett barking endlessly at the officials, for hours on end?
If JJ takes it in the lane early and often like he has for the last month, come playoff time the foul calls will be there, pouting for them or not.
Josh is clearly in a lot of pain. He may not be back to full strength this entire year, because he DOES resemble Joe in one trait: he will give his all. I agree with G Money that he is still growing as a player, and that we haven’t seen the best of him yet, because he’s not only still refining his tools, but he is also still learning to balance his head and his heart. The kid ADMITS sometimes his passion overrules his judgement. There are some 40 year olds who can’t see their own weakenesses, so I’m just gonna watch him & enjoy his growth. Do you recall another young phenom about 10 or 12 years ago who struggled with the game but has managed to hang onto his passion? He gives Josh fits every time we play them? Used to play for Minnesota. Now for Beantown. Whaddya think?
About this (posted to doc about Josh):He’s a savant, pure and simple. Instincts and athleticism are the antithesis of floor analysis. His defensive stats are the byproduct of the former, not the latter.
I don’t think that the two things are mutually exclusive. For example, if Josh remembers that someone used an up-and-under move on him, then he’s less likely to quickly leave his feet. That remembrance would support doc’s “student of the game” stance. Of course much of defense is pure reaction and on that point I understand your position. But there’s room for learning within that reaction. I don’t think Josh will ever be considered cerebral, but I DO think he’s catching on to nuances (when to leave his man to block, when to stay). If you’ve noticed, he’s drawing a LOT more charges these days. That, to me, indicates a certain awareness on defense that he didn’t have in earlier years. Yes, he’s got phenomenal skills, but he’s THINKING better on defense. Or at least that’s the way it looks from here.
Very good points about Josh. He does have more basketball smarts than most people believe. He also has that emotional side that sometimes takes over…and turns on his thoughtful side. In the long run, that combination will serve him very well.
Usually a player gets the cerebral tag when his brain clearly outdoes his physical abilities. Unfortunately, they can get tagged as less bright if they have really great physical attributes like Josh. The reality is in between.
If you are short, slow or don’t jump much and keep a pro job, you get credit for your smarts. Look at Barkley (the player). I don’t think he got his due for basketball intellect, because he was dominant in many ways. People forget he played as a dominant PF and was about the same height as Mario West. It wasn’t all about strength–he understood the game better than most.
We need to beat the Magic tonight. It shows that we are a thorn in their side (like NJ is to us.)
Excellent about Barkley, and oh so true about the assumption of a lack of intellect in physically gifted players.
By the way, on Sekou’s blog, someone (Hawksta?) gave me credit for an explanation of BWAF and had me saying “Bald with Arms folded”. That was incorrect, though, and not what I said.
I have always known what the acronym was, since I was around for the original WAF, well before the BWAF. Small matter Manny, but I wanted you to know that I still have MOST of my marbles.
Sautee,
He is thinking better/playing better. He IS a student of the game. Why else would he have The Dream working with him. I think we all agree on that one. One of the things that I sometimes wonder about is who is helping him think through things. Is it Woody? Tyrone Hill?
I have a concern about our coaching staff and player development. I haven’t seen this in any of the years that Woody has been here (nor did I see it prior either). When you think about the big guys (Williams, Smoove, ZaZa, or Morris) – I am not sure that Hill can teach them what they really need to know to make more than incremental change. Perhaps we shouldn’t expect any change during the season. However, over 82 games I would expect not to see some of the same errors that I saw at the beginning of the season.
So while we discuss Josh, I think it is important to talk about how our players are assisted in their player development.
I posted you up about JAVARIS CRITTENTON on SEKOU’s last blog before the current one with some updated stats. Do you want to continue to get info?
ray:
How’s it going blogster numero uno? I’ve moved over to the WIZARDS and REDSKINS blogs. It ain’t the same baby, it ain’t the same. My second cousin is back on the sports beat for the NEWS and OBSERVER in RALEIGH. He asked for my experiences here and comparatives elsewhere. I e-mailed him an epic. Lots of love for the AJC and the folks who run the blogs here for all venues that I follow. You guys are the greatest.
Thanks for all of the replies and the compliments. There has been some great comments on this blog. There will be a new one up in a few minutes…
RichBrave,
It’s good to hear from you. Things are going well. Now you KNEW the Wiz blogs couldn’t hold a candle to Sekou’s joint, my man! What’s wrong with ya? Just kidding. Stay with the home team, I understand. Just don’t forget your pals down south. Peace.
Okay, that’s just STRANGE. All I wanted was apostrophes at the beginning of my words. Had no idea they’d look that crazy on the face of the page, at least until you actually click on the blog topic itself. I have got to get used to this…
one was the lack of play where we didnt take advantage of jj reddick’s inability to defend. he should have been abused.
second was the play i remember where josh got too cute, being within 2 inches it seemed of the basket to slam it home. instead he seemingly took the ball out of the basket and passed it to marvin waiting at the three point line. the decision to distribute at that point was a surprise as from my vantage point he had it made and elected to play good teammate and share the ball. make one more pass josh when you are on the perimeter and time allows it, not when you have the ball in the cylinder.
Having Zaza back will definitely help. Morris and Jones are simply not physically ready to provide quality minutes against Dwight Howard. It’s just gonna come down to execution — defensive rotations, knocking down free throws, etc. Even if Turkeyglue and Lewis are taller than our forwards, just having a hand in a guy’s face every time he throws the shot up makes a huge difference.
On the bright side, I don’t think the Hawks can play much worse than they did in the 2nd and 3rd quarters, and they still managed to only lose by a few points. If they can bring it for four quarters I think they will be fine.
Nice to see that Josh Smith dunk though. Good to know that he’s officially back.
I found it inexplicable that the Hawks would come out like this after 3 days off, home court to protect, and with ground to gain on the Magic. Lack of senior leadership is what I attribute it to.
Doc, I take some umbrage at your singling Josh out. Given the leader of the team goes 29% from the field, 25% from 3 pt line, and 50% from free throw line. Yes, I’m calling out JJ. Bibby doesn’t do much better – 35% from the field, 20% from the arc, and 4-4 from the charity stripe. Josh goes 10-15 for 67% from the field, 50% from 3pt land, and 0-4 for free throws (totally unacceptable as well). Josh may make mistakes, but I didn’t see any one play that precipitated the demise of this team. In big games, the leaders have to come to play. He and Marvin were trying to fill a void.
If everyone recalls, Garnett put the Celtics on his back in the 2nd half and carried them to the W. Everyone on this blog can recall important games where the leaders/stars rise up and put in high quality performances. Didn’t happen last night. My assumption is that JJ is hurt; thus, the reason he isn’t beating anyone off the dribble, isn’t hitting most of his shots, and seems lethargic most of the game. Or perhaps, he likes playing 40 minutes plus a game, and isn’t feeling like he’s in the flow unless he has a certain number of touches or minutes. I don’t know but I find it a little worrisome. He’s too valuable to the success of this organization. The team goes nowhere without him and Bibby performing at a consistently high levels.
On another note, I was encouraged to see the bench used. It was kind of amusing to watch Morris play – he didn’t have much of a clue and I’m sure was surprised to be on the floor. He’s a big guy with long arms. Perhaps he goes to the “Solo” school of development and comes back a beast next year. Solo acquitted himself well even though he gave up way too much to Howard (ergo 4 fouls in 11 minutes).
Maybe we solve the equation tonight. Everybody has a bad game every now and then.
Would love to know from Sekou or anyone, what’s going on with our fearless leader.
g money josh played a great game if there was great game for a hawk last night. i was asked to discuss plays and that is the first sentence of this thread. that one stuck out in my mind and i discussed it coherently and pointedly. i came close to saying josh learns and hopefully we wont see that again. look only to the last post where i said some very positive things about josh got taken umbrage for it as well, cant win with josh. i have long been a supporter of him especially being called on the carpet by many for the fiasco that almost came of this summer’s botching of contracts to know again it is an isolated thing. that was the theme. now maybe i could say solo didnt do that or this because he isnt an icon and you wouldnt be offended however that type of play set the tone that he and the rest were playing in.
now pick your plays and be a playa. pick apart some plays of jj, unfortunately there were many and if you go over to the other blog you might find a few comments of jj as well that were of a broader nature.
i think this has the capacity to be josh’s team and should be as he is the leader in the wings; said that last year as well not this year. he has to make the right plays at the right time. that was not the right play. later he didnt defer to anyone and threw down a thunderous dunk when he could have passed. that was what i was talking about only too late to make a difference in this game in question. got it bro?
speaking of botching contract negotiations. wren and liberty are making us forget how the sund/basg coalition almost cost us dearly last year only to be rescued by the clippers and davis or the sixers and brand.
Point well-taken doc. As for the plays that stick out…obviously, the biggest was the missed lay-up. Aside from that for me it was the missed fourth quarter 3 taken by JJ. Everyone was waiting for the usual heroics which were not there. They hadn’t been there all night. Frankly, with the game winding down, the biggest gaff was Woody calling another clear out for JJ when he clearly wasn’t on. It would have been great to kick it to Marvin, Josh or try something else. In thinking about it, that for me was the biggest play – not recognizing what you’re working with. You gotta go with the hot hand.
As for the team being Josh’s – he’s not ready. He will be at some point, but not this year. I wonder if that is part of the problem. It feels as if there is a push-pull dynamic going on. NBA adolescence??
yup g, not ready but josh is building towards it and more my point and theme the last 12 months.
ask astro, whom i enjoyed being with immensely last night and my bud melvin er milton, heh heh, if he is reading. the subject the three of us talked at length about is one of the hawks apparent short comings of not playing to the hot hand until it gets un-hot. there are five scorers at least on this team maybe six or seven if flipmo is included. they should be made to feel and act that way. the notion well played out here is woody often takes out the hot hand instead of playing to it. last night if there was a hot hand or energy it was smash or marvin, both leading fast breaks in the fourth quarter not jj or bibby. agree whole heartedly and see very common ground. neither one was in the mix for the final shot. how many times did i hear in my right ear, “why didnt marvin even touch the ball on that last possession”? milton has the answer.
if we are to take the next step marvin and josh have to be ready for it and the sooner they learn it the better. the day of depending on iso jj in the last minute is done and the sooner we break that pattern the iso jj begins to work when it is not so relied on. as a coach on the opposite bench i stop him and force the other guys to win the game, not like we did in new jersey when anyone except vince carter should have been forced to beat you. too many times we see it work for the other team in show downs at the end where the ball dribbles off jj’s foot as he is double or triple teamed in the crunch whether it is at the end of quarters or games. jj is not lebron, dwayne, kobe or even pierce (oh, i hated to say that last name) let us put that behind us and go forward.
I’m reposting this from Sekou’s blog. There was some discussion there about whether the responsibility for the loss fell on the players or the coach.
Woodson certainly has some culpability in the loss, but as I see it it’s from a scheme standpoint.
As Ray pointed out, the starting backcourt took 34 shots, and shot a poor percentage. That’s gonna happen some nights, but where the culpability lies is in the scheme that had the backcourt taking that many shots.
Look, it’s worked fairly well so far don’t you think? 22-12 is so much better than last year. And JJ and Bibby ARE our most experienced players. But when you put that many eggs in the “backcourt basket”, you’re bound to break a few every now and then.
Yes, the players must execute, and failed to last night, but a scheme that has us taking that many jump shots WILL fail if our backcourt shooting is off.
If the scheme is tilted THAT much toward the backcourt, we’ll end up putting our fate in the percentage that JJ and Bibby shoot. and that scheme is just what Woody wants right now.
We need more consistent frontcourt offense, so that we’re not as vulnerable to games of this sort. That’s on Woody to find a way.
Man, I go away for one week and we see what happens …
Look at the bright side, we’re playing better than the Celtics right now. LOL!
Anyway, this is one of those games that happen during the 82-game season. Heck our last three could have all gone either way. I would have liked to get one of those games back — especially the Nets game, but there’s going to be times like this through the season. Two years ago, this team would have been sleepwalking though all four quarters and losing by 20. Now we’re just sleepwalking for shorter periods — and in certain areas of the game.
The one thing that I appreciate about Woody’s style is that he focuses on defense. There are going to be nights where your shot doesn’t fall or the bounces just don’t go your way. But good defense will get you through that — and in an 82-game season, there’s 20 or so games where both teams are tired/unmotivated/uninvolved — and in those matchups, defense usually wins.
I think Woody will put his foot down in practice this week, and we’ll see some better defensive intensity out of this team in the next couple of games. When we came out of the box with that great start — it was all about the defense. Since then, we’ve kind of lost that focus, due in part to injuries and (dare I say it ..) players getting a bit tired (due to too many minutes?) in the second quarter of the season.
From now until mid-February is where you really make the playoffs. The cream rises to the top, because good teams fight through this grind. Good defense makes the grind easier. The last month, you’re playing for seeding. But we still need to focus on the here and now, and not take our good start for granted.
Two things will help. First, focus on the defense first. Second, keep your player’s heads in the game by having them play in shorter, focused spurts within the game. In other words, sometimes the coach needs to just say — no matter what the score, up or down — let’s just win these next five minutes.
Of course, extending the rotation to get some more time for you younger folks will help both those points … in my humble opinion.
from now into feruary you stay in the hunt is the way i see it don. this is crunch time grind time and the c’s are feeling it now. that is how i hop we can muster energy t stay above the mark we have set then to surge back in march. we are not at home but about three dates in february. this team will have to man up to stay where it is to have something left in march when they come home for about 11 of 12 games.
Sautee, I recall seeing the Hawks try hard to establish themselves inside during the first few minutes of the game. I also watched as they missed lightly contested shots in the paint and or couldn’t finish strongly at the basket. In summary, they played like wimps at the beginning. Orlando came out ready for a playoff-type contest while the Hawks were sleep-walking through the first 8 minutes of the game. After getting it to a 29-29 tie, Orlando put it in another gear that the Hawks couldn’t maintain until their furious 4th quarter rally. I think the scheme was okay, it was the lack of execution (and energy) that forced the team to play from behind most of the game.
I COMPLETELY disagree that this is Smith’s team or becoming Smith’s team. But I will agree that the team plays much better when he decides to play a physical brand of ball. We know that Horford and Zaza are always willing to bang. When Smith joins them and “man’s up” then this is a completely different team. It seems like Smith often starts out slowly during many seasons and there is usually a 3-4 game spurt when he becomes an ultra-productive player… and then that light typically stays on for the remainder of the year. The play that Ray pointed out, when he took it hard to the hole (after previously passing out of a comparable opportunity as Doc discussed) may signal that the light is green again. We’ll see. His scoring is definitely back but it doesn’t feel like he’s the same rebounder and shot-blocker as pre-injury.
Bottom line, this team still has a tendency to “go soft”. That shows up when we shoot too many 3s on offense, get pounded in the paint and/or can’t box out. While a “legit” big would help, we have seen that the simple “don’t f with me tonight” mindset also gets the job done. If we’re going to win Friday night, our front court needs to walk on the floor thinking “this ain’t the night to f with me” and then break their foot off in that Magic a$$.
agree to disagree only the guy that sets the tone becomes the man. he is the only player of that stature now that can come close to the present man jj. right now he is the only one signed past 2010 as he is signed for four more years. further salt deeper into the wound is we will look like idiots when we find out he isnt available for the next year.
Doc, I was actually thinking about Horford. Now that isn’t to say that he will be better than Smith (or Marvin) but that he will “set the tone” (to use your phrase). When there is a missed defensive rotation, I see Horford talking to a teammate. When we’re getting bum-rushed in the paint, I think Horford will be the one to deliver the “aggressive” foul to send a message. But if we want to establish a low post game, we really need both of those guys… since Horford’s game is still a work in progress and Smith tends to stray away from the paint. Since neither are Duncan, Bosh or KG… it will definitely take the two of them in tandem to “set the tone” against the league’s elite.
i think the hawks are soft on some nights because they just don’t match up very well physically. imagine trying to bang with someone who is typically taller, heavier and stronger than you are. this is the situation josh and al find themselves in on most nights.
like someone mentioned earlier. jj came out real flat. i wonder if he’s 100%… he looked pretty weak coming off of 3 days rest.
yo can anyone tell me how jj reddick was blowing people up? tough loss. lets bounce back against philly!
Guys I don’t know if you see it or not, but I hate to give Ando an “in” but what I am seeing is that perhaps we are tiring of the night in/night out banging inside against guys bigger and stronger. We really missed ZaZa It does take a toll, particularly if you didn’t prepare for this kind of grind in the off-season.
Astro, I didn’t say this was Smoove’s team. It could be one day, though.
Sautee, you’re right on the scheme. The reality is that other teams watch tape. They see what the Hawks have been doing. They now see how to defend it. What’s next??? We don’t have a what’s next!!! While defense is imperative, we still have to score points.
Our interior scoring sucks. I don’t think I’ve seen three interior passes that haven’t gotten disrupted or stolen. We don’t whip the ball around like we used to either. We tried a little motion offense last night, but either the picks weren’t strong enough, we weren’t quick enough or Orlando is just a better team (I don’t want to believe that one).
Doc, the guy who sets the tone is the man. You’re absolutely correct. As I said before, I believe Marvin and Josh are trying to fill a leadership void on the court. I hope they don’t have to as we move deeper into the season. That means JJ and Bibbs are stepping up.
Wow. The comments are off the CHAIN. I’m not surprised though, as I know most of you (at least in the online sense) and have an innate appreciation for your knowledge and insight.
Honest Abe,
Don’t go away again like that. I thought I was going to have to put the ol’ BCU Missing Persons Task Force on the road to find your crazy butt. Good to see you again, and I look forward to your rapier wit on this blog.
Doc and Astro Joe,
Very good contrasting points, and I can see that there is more in common than there is in contrast. In particular, I can see the concept that AJ puts out there about Al and Josh. Clearly, they balance each other.
Josh does need to get back to terrorizing the opponents on defense and he DOES need to get back to that 8-9 rpg level. But I’ll damn sure take these 20 point nights where he’s shooting above 50%.
Here’s the thing about Josh passing out to a teammate when he’s in a position to score- I recall another player who he has been compared to constantly. A guy who has much of the same game when it comes to having the ability to score, rebound, block shots, and get assists (but he shoots way better). Hell, they even gave him a name for it: The Matrix. Yeah. THAT guy. Shawn Marion. Josh may never shoot like Marion does. But he has the potential to be better than Marion is. We’ll see how far he goes.
Also, I like Astro Joe’s “Don’t F with me tonight” attitude idea. It’s hard to beat a team that’s mentally tough, but even moreso when they’re coming at you with a “I am not the one to F with” mentality. We need that edge. And it will probably have to come from our frontcourt. We won’t get it from our backcourt, though they will follow along if led.
Don!,
That 21-6 run we went on didn’t start until we started getting our hands on the ball, whether it was passing or dribbling. We showed plenty of defensive intensity….too late. We spent a little more than two quarters letting the Magic shoot from wherever. And despite what the numbers say, Dwight Howard doesn’t really beat us up that badly. Yes, 19 rebounds is a hell of a lot. But guess what? There was only a difference of one rebound when comparing both team total rebounds. But 23 points? That’s “containing” a superstar. The man works for it against Horford. Howard didn’t beat us up. The wings and perimeter guys did. And that makes no sense.
I’ll say this as well: Flip is an offensive spark plug (when he’s on). He is not a defensive spark plug, and we need one of those in the game. More specifically, we need on in the backcourt. Do we have one already (that just isn’t playing), or do we need to go get one?
I have to admit that my initial reaction was to argue with Doc’s first post. But after a few seconds of thought, I knew exactly what he was trying to say (though that play didn’t stick out to me…he does that same pass a lot). Also, you’re right about the execution of the screens and the interior passing/scoring, at least in last night’s game. I think we can attribute some of that to what Sautee brought up…
Sautee,
Great points about putting all of your eggs in one basket. Every team that is able to win off of ISO plays late in the game has solid ways of scoring throughout the game, therefore lending strength to the ISO plays.
In Portland, guys like Aldridge, Outlaw, and others hurt you all game long. Then Roy finishes you off in the 4th if he’s needed.
Dirk Nowitzki is definitely the guy to go to in crunch time (well, most of the time). But without the contributions of guys like Terry, Howard, Bass, etc, he’d be worn down and even his tremendous mismatch advantages wouldn’t be all they could be.
Boston throws several guys at you all night. But in the end, it’s Pierce and Garnett. Sometimes just Pierce.
If the Nets were more able down low, they’d win more games. As it is, they still have possibly the best backcourt in the East (we’re pretty close ourselves).
The old Suns teams would kill you with Stoudamire, Marion, etc. Then Nash would nail the lid in the coffin when his scoring was needed. All because you could not ignore the others. And that’s the trick. To get by on bread and butter plays, to effectively involve the bench. To get consistent, solid scoring from a few sources. Then use your most lethal weapons at the end if needed.
With the kind of shooters Bibby and JJ are, how come we can’t run that play the Magic did, when Nelson was left open. I think one of their bigs set a pick, and Nelson was open for 2 or 3 easy shots. Everytime we try that play, we (usually Zaza) get called for a foul.
Also, I agree that something is wrong with our scheme. Either the players can’t execute, or Woody needs to come up with a better scheme.
I’d bet on a mixture of the two. We aren’t executing for some reason, and some of Woody’s schemes are questionable. All that aside, our defense was awful. Considering that we’re a still predominantly young team that’s just now learning how to be a WINNING team, I’d say that defensive execution and intensity will have to take a front seat to offensive execution. We’re not good enough yet where our offense can make up for our defensive lapses.
I’m gonna disagree with that last statement. I think, unfortunately,or VERY fortunately, depending on how one looks at it, we are JUST BARELY good enough to hit enough jumpers on a GIVEN night to make up for lack of defensive intensity. This was all too true in the dozen or so games that Josh missed. And it might be the difference in our record this year, as I certainly don’t think we’ve “brought it” on defense every night.
It’s an easy trap to fall into, when the jumpers are going in. And I’m sure Woody is pounding that message home.
I DO agree that when we execute defensively and play with intensity, we’re a TOTALLY different team. That’s the team that started 6-0. That’s what we need tonight. And SHARE THE BALL! This means you Flip Murray!
I should have been more specific, in that I was thinking we are not CONSISTENTLY good enough against GOOD teams to do overcome our defensive deficiencies with offensive execution alone. The reason I say this is because GOOD teams are much more likely to defend us well enough to keep our new found perimeter/jumpshooting abilities from helping us seal the game. We found that out against Orlando a night ago when our starting backcourt went 11-34 from the field. We’ve found it out against teams like Cleveland. New Jersey has done it to us, too, and they’re not even a team that has a winning record (but they match up well against us). But hey, I could still be wrong.
Big kudos to Woody for calling ALL of his players out in practice about their defense, as reported by Sekou Smith. Things always start with leadership, and Woody needs to hold his top guys accountable. I am glad to see he did that, as JJ is one in particular who needs to ramp it back up on defense, as some others have noted.
I hope they worked on free throws in practice too.
I’m sure others have noticed that when good teams turn up the defensive pressure, the Hawks play better when they get out and run. Which is what Sekou suggested the Hawks should have done more against the Magic to wear Dwight out (and take advantage of the Magic shooters who are not that great defensively).
Even if the other team scores, we can still get out and run, especially since we struggle from inconsistent offensive execution. Maybe Woody will allow them to run more (although he says that in order to run, you must play good defense first).
I think everyone is in shock. I watched the game in amazement and disbelief last night. Not in my wildest dreams could I have conjured up such a mauling. It was worse than the Christians and the Lions. Some things really are inexplicable.
An aberration. Nothing could go wrong for the Magic, and nothing could go right for us.
However, there was also a complete breakdown. We can’t chalk it all up to simple bad luck. The bad luck just really came over the top of bad play. Everybody gets a piece of the blame on this one.
Thing is, we’re still a team with a winning record. Time to go get after Philly. A loss to them (particularly a bad loss) would suggest that something else is at work. But until I see that, no reason to believe that we’re suddenly on the downward spiral, back to where we came from.
And the typical calls for trading Bibby or canning Woody will come, but they’re just not necessary. However, I can think of some other trades I’d make, and they wouldn’t be because of two losses to the same team.
nice stuff ray, only the idea the guy was floating with a .150 blood level and with his background for him or anyone in that situation is something to take seriously if you dont take the person sir charles seriously. it is a health issue and pleased he and his bosses are taking it serious by the fact he is taking time away from his TNT perch. many said he wouldnt at the height of their criticism. they were wrong and for charles suggests he means more to them than to enable him further.
plan to be there tomorrow hoping this past week was a mirage.
yup seems spurs get coached up again. that guy is good, really good.
doc, I’m curious: does a 300-pound man have more liters of blood than a 200-pound man? Because if not, I’m wondering if there isn’t variability in the actual “inebriation” of 2 men, with 100-pound difference in body weight, who both have the same blood alcohol level.
Seriously not making light of Barkley’s drinking, but from what I know about his time in Atlanta (TNT), this was a slow night……….
At what level does his employer take some accountability? I’ve got a hunch that many, many times, over the years, his “coffee” cup has been filled with vodka, while he’s rambling on any tangent that suits him.
This event, like many that have preceded it recently, continues to the beg the question, “why don’t rich people, who like to get hammered, just pay somebody to drive them around?”
ando blood volume is blood volume and is usually given as an average size individual about 170 lbs. of 5 liters. alcohol blood levels are given for contents within a dl of blood just like glucose. so there is no variability for the size of a man the blood volume for the actual inebriation of the man any more than someone 300 lbs or 200 lbs has different glucose levels. it is individualized to how someone metabolizes alcohol but that is the only variability, period. someone who drinks has enzymes to help his body get rid of it as it really is a poison so they might be able to metabolize and drink more. bottom line .150 is .150 whether it is in a 100 lb woman or 300 lb man.
by the way the highest level i ever saw in someone alive and still breathing was, now get this, 768. that means his blood was almost completely made of alcohol. he was still in the emergency room sleeping it off when i came back for my shift 12 hours later essentially in an alcohol induced coma for 18 hours. folks can die in the 300 and over levels and what gets the young college kids their first time out on a spree. sir charles’ level was not inconsequential. i am sure ray has seen higher in his time. i have never have talked to many police about it but it is serious and as you say probably not an isolated event. it even may be his natural level on screen.
This was a superb article, Ray- creative. Look, I don’t judge anybody who’s had a DUI. I haven’t, and I think the problem should be solved permanently- a damn life sentence for DUI. It’s inexcusable, on any level of society, for any individual. So many people DIE from DUI- a lovely young girl in our town was killed over the holiday from by some drunken dirtbag.
If our lawmakers were really interested in stopping DUI, this is what would happen. Maybe not life, but make it the equivalent of “attempted murder”. Of course, that will never happen, because the government has a great racquet going with the probations and breath machines and fines…can’t get all that revenue if you just lock the slobs up for good.
doc, in regards to ando’s point- what about the breathalizers that cops test them with on the spot? Would the difference in weight matter in that case? Always wondered about that one.
Being that the laws are what they are, why should Barkley have to be suspended, or whatever they’re calling it? The guy is the centerpiece of the best (and most original) sports show on TV. He got a dui, just like millions of other people.
I think people in this country are hypocritical. If DUI’s are so offensive, then let’s get some tougher laws- not higher fines, hard time.
While we’re on the subject, what about this kid Mason with the Spurs? That’s a nice backcourt, Mason, the Frenchman, Ginobli and the ghost of Micheal Finley…
I was writing about Posey last week- he’s very underrated. Now he’s doing the same thing in the Big Easy that he did in Miami and Boston- they’re a top five defensive squad and he’s leading them in three-point percentage.
We need to RUN (to beat Philly) Ray. We need to RUN. And I’d like to have the Georgian available.
ba society has a hsrd enough time paying to keep the criminals it has now. unless you and i and the rest of society are going to raise their taxes higher to support more jails to hold them all then it will continue as it is. i guess we could really do somethng and stop selling liquor. oh yeah tried that and it didnt work and tax revenues were lost to boot. we are suck only the statistics suggest if one has a dui it is almost certain their is a drinking problem . we ignore that one fact as well. just arent going to be judgmental are we? yes occasional first timers or celebrators are caught but by percentage those caught have an issue.most times it is the tip of the iceburg andwe tend to cover that up and was rally to my point.
dont know much about breathalizers, their accuracy and how they actually work as they werent part of the lab assessment. however, gas is a liquid as well so it is the same construct; it is done by amount of substance in a volume of a gas substance. the lungs are used to dispel toxins as well just as the skin is. they can be used just as well to absorb things like nicotine and cocaine or meds.
i pray barkley is getting treated for a substance abuse issue and though it wasnt stated that way it seemed such by the language used in explaining his time off. rehab is still the best way for society and the individual, it is less costly if taken seriously and why the courts do it that way ba. only the mind and society tend to ignore it, play to it and excuse it just as the individual denies it in his own mind.
as far as charles he will either be contrite or he will try to deny it like he does with his significant gambling issue he has. in other words, be the funny charles. doesnt everyone love the funny drunk?
BA, agree, posey is a winner in the image of the player that looks like wil smith whose name escapes me now. was a spur, laker? and rocket on their championship teams and always came up big. posey is the man and cant believe boston let him go
Thanks. It was just stuff bouncing around in my head, as I was thinking of other things besides getting the stuffing beat out of us. No, we as a society are not that interested in taking a LOT of things seriously. Hence the “war on drugs.” Too much money involved. Or too little, depending on how you choose to look at it. Either way, money is the real issue. Too many times, people take it for granted until they see the potential tragedies realized right in front of them. Then they want to be serious. Until then, it’s “hey, we all have our rights, and I don’t want anybody trampling on mine. As long as it doesn’t affect or touch me, I don’t care what’s happening.” But we could talk about this all day, and I’d rather not. Too damn depressing. As it is, I half-regret having brought the subject up anyway. My real point was that writers are making THIS of all things, the crux of whether or not Barkley is to be taken seriously, when he has been playing the fop all along. The man has never tried hard to be taken seriously. He’s not even well-spoken half the time, and perhaps has never worked with anyone to help improve that. And would he be so popular if he wasn’t what he is? This latest batch of incidents are a completely different matter altogether.
And the gambling? So what, it’s his money and his problem. Did not Michael Jordan get caught doing the SAME thing, if not moreso? The difference was that he was a man of championships and endorsements, a permanent media darling. Charles was the fop and fool, and continues to be. Yep.
Doc suggests that maybe, just maybe, Barkley is seeking help (therefore explaining the time off), I take a more cynical approach. I hope he seeks help too for whatever he needs. But we know this game, do we not? I doubt that was the true motive for the time off, and doubt that it was all his own decision. With the amount of attention it got, TNT most likely decided they needed him to take the time off. Perhaps he agreed without reluctance. Cynical? Yeah. And probably correct. Look how long it took Marv Albert to “get back in the game”….
I agree on the approach to Philly today. Run like hell. And don’t look back. Energy, energy, energy. That’s really how we win all of our games. To do otherwise is to find a way to lose, unless our jumpers are falling like Orlando’s were the other night.
By my guess, Ainge figured he could replace anybody he lost in free agency, and that any vet would be glad to come to Boston, or that any that were there would be grateful to stay. Wrong. Cassell is there, but doesn’t play. PJ is gone, and Posey said goodbye. They could have had Dikembe, but told him “don’t call us, we’ll call you…after we sit around, smoke a stoagie, and think about all the other FAs that aren’t coming yet but will surely prostrate themselves before us freely, grateful of the chance to be part of the return of a dynasty.”
Wrong again, so far. It ain’t over yet for Boston. The road to the Finals is still through them, and they are still the defending champs. But they have made many enemies with their chest-beating and trash talking. Everyone wants to take them down, and some have figured out just how to do it, I think. World beaters last year, and they got their rings. But the road back is always tougher, ask the Spurs. And they don’t have all the soldiers they had, either.
Furthermore, I don’t think you’ll see a barrage of iconoclastic, super dramatic commercials featuring a raptor-like KG roaring and pounding his chest like some anemic King Kong. No, the media shall latch onto a new powerful darling. And his name is King James.
ray, now dont go cynical on me. that is my job ray. dont give me the optimist mantle just yet. heh heh
i also see more to sir charles as there is a lot of truth in what he says in many formats and subjects, a modern day will rogers at times. hope he gets fixed up so he can be relevant.
Speaking of the Spurs–just how do they do it? They are always in the mix of competitive teams. Always a great possibility of winning it all (albeit in odd number years). How does a team sustain that for year after year?
Here we are giving up all kinds of points to a team with no shooters. Gee, it must be the interior defense, eh? How long before we get another big in here? I figure there is two ways to do this: get one that will be a starter, or a vet to come off the bench and enforce things?
Once again, we are putting all of our faith in the backcourt…and getting outrebounded in the frontcourt. Yuck. Hope we can pull this one out, though. We keep getting close…I don’t want to begin spending the rest of the season this way.
I don’t like to give up early, but with the “get close” then “fall behind again” trend, I’d say this game is done. Even though we’re only down by 11. We just don’t have it. Everything is coming from the perimeter. And mostly from two guys…
There goes the game. And with us going West (without Horford, no less)…
The Hawks are just going to have to man-up. That’s all there is to it. The guards can’t hog the ball, they have to get the wings involved early. They played well, but not enough by themselves to get the job done. Marvin and Josh are going to have to scramble, scrabble, hustle, and fight. Or we’re going to lose some more games. In a row.
This team is done if woody is the coach. He couldn’t motivate a roach to avoid Raid bug spray. This team has gone as far as it’s gonna go with woody. Avery Johnson is the coach we need.
I’ve always liked the way Mike Woodson has run this squad. There’s been a consistent level of professionalism- a cohesiveness.
I’m not seeing it now. It’s time for Woodson to reign these cats in, because I’m starting to think losing Horford could be much harder than losing Smith. At least, today it seemed that way.
The defensive identity is missing, or at least hit-or-miss. The communication is non-existent right now. Woodson has always been good at the whole Indiana hard azz routine. Right now he and his staff need a little Zen Master action, because the balance is off.
Would it be to cynical of me to say that a regular 5-10 minutes in November and December sets up a bench player to play a more significant role when a starter is injured? I get that Zaza is just coming back from the flu so his energy might be low, but the Sixers were playing the way we should play with our regular starters.
Run, run, run, as fast as you can, you can’t catch me…I’m an undersized PF/C
If Al will be out for awhile, I think there should be some tweaking to take advantage of things that these players do well. Maybe some more Solo/Josh tandem if a team drives a lot. More Zaza/Marvin if they just pund the ball inside. It was interesting to see Josh at the 5 for part of this game, but he does not seem committed to working the lane on offense. No way he keeps up with Phoenix or the Clippers at the 5 for more than brief moments against Amare.
Offensively, this might be the time to see if RandMo can truly score against NBA quality big men. Even if his role with the 2nd team is only to be an interior option on offense, it is clearly something we need to look at over the next game or two.
However, when you counting other people’s money the conversation can get kind of testy! The only person I think is of any immediate use to the Hawks is Wilcox from OkC. So now that we know who we need it’s a matter of putting together a package, crunching the numbers and finding out whether this can work.
nice stuff ando, short on semi-colons, something personal?
since you brought up the fella, mr young looked pretty good for a third year college kid. at half time i posed this question to melvin and manny t. if you had a choice who would you take, marvin or thadeus? surprisingly there were two answers. good chatting up those two guys and hanging a bit with melvin as he dropped down to some empty seats next to me.
not a good crowd today, family day and little to cheer about.
Our defense at the guard positions,especially at PG,is killing the Hawks.Does Bibby’s offense compensate for his lack of defense?I don’t think so.You win with defense,and early on this season we were playing good D,but I think we started to believe we were a great offensive team.Our TEAM has to play DEFENSE……
doc…As soon as Marvin learns that like a good pitcher, he needs 2 good moves. Right now he has about 8 mediocre moves. The problem being he outthinks himself when he gets the ball if it is not an obvious 3 point shot. Simplifying will make his offense better. His defense has improved this year.
The Young fella will be good, but you are tempting me to go back to my old standard…if Marvin played there and Thad played here, would you have the same argument. There is a Woody factor that makes this question less obvious than you state.
Ando…the Hawks can afford a move, but I don’t know that they will make one. The affordability comes in doing what they did last season. If you want to send an expiring contract (Zaza) or two (Marvin) out, you can get a decent player in return for that 9+ mil. You could probably get something done with either Josh as well. However, I think the ASG would be against that move unless we really hit a severe downward spiral like down to 9th in the east.
All that said, if he wasn’t hurt, I’d put in a call for Chris Kaman. Others may look at Channing Frye, but I wonder what we could offer Portland? They do need to save some cap room now that Miles will add about 9 mil to their cap number, but Frye makes less than Zaza.
JJ…Winning with defense is the correct way. But you can also win by outscoring opponents, and the Hawks are able to win some games that way. Uptempo, and running. However, Woody refuses to let them play that way.
The ironic thing is that if Woody let the Hawks run, that would hide some of his obvious strategic coaching deficiencies.
Good read Ando. The bad thing is if the bench does not play well immediately (for whatever reason) people will be quick to say thats why they don’t get any PT. Completely ignoring the fact that it takes consistent PT and confidence (and Woody plays a huge role).
The inprovements to the bench in the off season were good compared to previous years. However, we all know Al is no center and he is getting beat up down there. If this continues the starting five may not 100% at playoff time. JJ even said after Sunday’s lost to the sixers that the starting 5 are not clicking and digging a hole before the bench players come in. It took the Cav’s and the Celtics years to develop a nucleus of winning basketball. Although money is an issue ownership has to see if a good product is on the floor people will come. Even with the economy tight, people want a reason to cheer and get together. Biddy is good but his defense is lacking at times. Flip can drive the lane but causes to many turn overs. JJ said this is the best year he has had here because they are winning and playing like a team. However, all that yelling Woodson is doing has not motivated them.
I think Woody needs to get Law involved more off the bench. We need to see what this kid can do.At times he looks like he has some skills however, he disappears from the rotation even when the team is getting blown Away. The last three games the team has been very flat!! Perhaps Law could and would have provided a much needed lift. Can anyone say late season colapse from a top seed to a bottom playoff seed again!!!
The answer to your question is that I would take Thaddeus Young over Marvin any and all days of the week. It is amazing to me how many times this year I have heard that Marvin has improved. I will give him a little credit on defense, but the defensive improvement makes him close to average, and not terrible. He is such a limited player. He can not create his own shot. He can’t stay on his feet when he drives. I have never seen a 6′11 guy fall to the ground as much as duck. His handles are questionable. He can only hit a shot when he is wide open, and that is still iffy. He should be the main guy on the trading block. We really need someone at the three who can take someone of the dribble and get to the lane, as we have enough stand still jump shooters (Bibby, Joe, Evans, Flip). Young’s game needs work, but he is fluent and has a very high basketball IQ (which is amazing because, I know that Paul Hewitt did not help to develop that). Marvin should definately be the odd man out. Think of all the young 3’s in the league (Granger, Young, Deng, Prince, Melo, Thorton, Chandler, Howard, Gay, Durant,Outlaw…), can you honestly say that you would take Marvin over any of them now. I can’t. We won’t even go into the fact that he was drafted with the #2 pick in the draft. Maybe Denver will trade Melo for Marvin, since they got drafted in the same position in the draft and Marvin is a little younger. (That was a joke).
Some interesting points. I hear you on Thad Young and the others. One has to wonder if Marvin could do similar things if he came up under a different coach, and therefore under a different system. Of course, this has been debated many times before.
On the flip side of the coin, some of a player’s development is squarely on the player. You know, those who help themselves get helped out…that sort of thing. However, there’s one guy on your list that I’d not take over Marvin at this particular moment: Deng. He’s stinking it up in Chicago (when he’s healthy that is), and is certainly not earning the $71 million dollar contract that he held out for last summer. He was better last year and supposedly onto the next level. Heh….
Should you judge a player by his draft position? Or should you judge the person that picked him there?
Our owners want as much stability as possible with the Belkin mess looming, so Woody knows he has his job until it’s all resolved. Any pressure they apply on Woody to use his bench is superficial. The ASG is reticent about things like that anyway. Oops, did I say reticent? Damn Ando, you are contagious. Like Anal Fissures.
Chea, yes, I could, possibly, use more commas, if irritated enough. I’ll tell you what’s “tenuous”: some random speaking, as fact, that the ASG is committed to stability until the Belkin mess is resolved, and that, in turn, Woody KNOWS his job is secure, until that issue is resolved.
And I’m not reticent to point such an observation, out.
P.S I’ve never heard of contagious anal fissures, and I’m kind of grossed out by anyone who has expert knowledge of such things (unless you’re a proctologist, which my commas doubt, at the most cynical level, clinically speaking).
Let’s go back through the other responses and see what happens:
Hawksta: thanks, and true dat…
doc: I’m short on colon. Bringing in “semi” seems redundant…
JJ: slow PG + undersized front line = flawed defense (at least over an 82-game season). There’s a reason the Hawks fell off when Smith was out. He’s the X-factor, who makes up for the simplistic equation above. But what I wondered, out loud, when we started out 6-0, was could the Hawks possibly maintain the playoff level of intensity that they came out with, over an 82-game season. The answer was, and is (with a nod to Chea), no.
Manny: I don’t know how you can validate, any more than Chea, that the ASG “can afford a move”. I’ve done my best to point out why I don’t think they can afford the current payroll, a full $10 million greater than last year, and any previous year. Where’s you’re evidence? As far as a healthy Kaman, I’d say the Clippers would be far more likely to move the expiring contract, of a guy who’s 10 years older, in the name of Camby. And I’d be willing to take a shot in that direction (I’d be far more interested in giving a 30-plus Camby a 4-5 year deal than a similarly aged Bibby). Frye is starting to develop the reputation of Melvin Ely. A guy who gets a lot of talk, but continues to fail to impress, as the years quickly pass.
shresee2: hard to find fault with anything you said.
Rod: I’m struggling to jump into your point, because I’m not sure I can find the time necessary to fully extrapolate my opinion. It’s the TRUTH, what you say. Anyone who’s been following Sekou’s blog, since it’s inception, knows that I’ve beaten the poop out of the Chris Paul issue (for those who might read this and haven’t, no less than Sekou Smith has backed the fact that I resolutely called for the Hawks to draft Paul BEFORE we took Marvin). The generalization of your point is grounded in the position that great “wings” have always been somewhat discounted, in the draft, in exchange for teams seeking either the next great big, or the next great “one”. There are several names that you highlight (notably, Granger, Gay and Durant), who are worth discussing. But Durant was the #2 overall. And ‘Melo was 3rd overall, famously behind Darko. More noteworthy, in that draft was that Bosh was #4 and Wade was #5.
If I was going to make a point about the recent history of great wings, and where they were taken, I’d actually point to both Pierce and our own JJ. Both were taken 10th overall. Both were viewed as “complete” talents (not unlike Granger, who was taken 17th in ‘05, just a year later than the Hawks had Josh Smith fall in their laps). If someone wants to carve out some meaning from all the wings you highlighted, with Pierce and JJ reasonably added to the mix, it’s that the league has historically viewed the wing position as easier to fill.
It’s that very point that I made to one of the owners, in e-mail correspondence, right after Marvin was drafted. What I said was that I questioned the local hype regarding Marvin as a once-in-a-decade forward (I’m pretty confident that you could track that position back to a certain hall-of-fame Hawk, who’s currently acting as an announcer for the local squad), given the (at the time) projected expectations of Rudy Gay, who was expected to come out the next year (and, in addition to Brandon Roy and Randy Foye, were all taken after the infamous Sheldon Williams).
Say it with me, “Chris Paul”……….
Say it with me, “Brandon Roy”……….
Say it with me, “Ugggggghhhhhhhhhh”……….
Just don’t try and say these opinions are hindsight. They weren’t, aren’t, and never will be……..
um for clarity, anal fissures are not contagious, contiguous maybe just not contagious.
rod, cant argue the point. what it does say is marvin has not lived up to the billing he didnt ask for which was he is a one in ten year player. i really like what marvin has done this year only as i watched the finesse, smoothness and motor of the kid i had to wonder. he was probably the surprise of the draft last year as he made a huge impact from the point they put him in the line up and i doubt many expected it of him. dont know how he fits in the scheme of things with elton brand but he did seem comfortable shooting threes, leading the break and finishing at the rim and playing with the big boys.
I’ve had a lot of folks scoff at my pre-season suggestion that the Hawks, committed to a long-term front line of Smith and Horford, might look to swap Marvin for Bargnani. Bargnani’s last five games: 21.4 points, 7.4 boards, 1.2 blocks, 3.4 (3.4!!!!!!!!) 3’s (17-26, which is over 60%), and around 55% overall from the field.
It was only a week or two ago that I mentioned to Ray that HoopsHype quoted Bargnani’s availability as Toronto acknowledged a need to balance out the lacking quickness of their front line.
I’ll say it again: with Smith and Horford, boarding from the 3 and 4, a guy like Bargnani would be perfect, despite his rebounding softness. It’s all about balance. And a front line of Smith, Horford and Bargnani would be relentlessly confounding for opposing defenses.
Based on reasonable projections, they’d average nearly 30 boards and 6 blocks a game. And Bargnani’s 3-point shooting would create crazy space for Josh drives and Horford’s developing low-post game.
you know ando life is tough you get criticized for too much punctuation and i last week for too little. i didnt know their were grammer police on the blog. left them in college i thought. if nothing else bro we bring balance to each other and i guess the blog as well. how nice and reaffirming. so keep on truckin man. ando, it is better to have half a colon than half an azz.
With the NBA trading deadline fast approaching, I have one real, deep fear for these Hawks — trading Bibby. If we struggle badly over the next few weeks … and we might … I think there’s a real possibility that the ASG will dump Bibby to avoid paying the remainder of his salary for the year.
This is where the lack of run for Acie, and the rest of the benched bench comes into play. When everyone was healthy, we really needed to get these guys some more run. Now that Big Al is out, our other bigs will get some time — but that’s something that should have been addressed BEFORE the injury.
The same may well hold true at the PG position for this team. Either though age, injury or trade — Bibby may not be here the whole year, and almost assuredly not next season. We need to start looking at some other folks here and now.
Maybe the expectations will be lowered over the next couple of weeks for this team, so that Woody feels like he can get the players not currently getting good minutes some good minutes. That way, our remaining players will be better off for the stretch run, and if we do make a move before the trading deadline, we have a better evaluation of our own talent to make solid decisions with.
One other issue bothers me at this point, and it’s been glossed over in the good start to the season. Woody, Sund and the ASG have no real history with each other. They may not all be on the same page. That can cause problems, especially when a team is at an important transition point in their development like the Hawks are now. We have the makings of a good team, but so did the Bulls two years ago. One or two smart moves will make the Hawks contenders (like the Cetlics), but one or two bad moves will make us pretenders (like the Bulls). Or we could just get stuck in the middle for the next decade like the Nets.
I really would like to see better signs of unity from the ASG, Sund and Woody in terms of playing, developing and keeping talent over the next few weeks. In Woody’s case, playing more folks. In Sund’s case, shaking the trees around the league to find folks compatible with Woody’s system, and in ASG’s case, making the public announcement to simply continue supporting this team for now and the foreseeable future.
I don’t know. I think we’re at a crossroads here. As the blog title says, “The Bill Comes Due.”
So are we going to pay it, or file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy? Hawks fans want to know.
I actually like the Bargnani idea. It would definately change the the look ouf our team dramatically. I just know that a move does need to made if we seriously want to compete in the east. I am glad to know that you do kind of agree with me. I have just finally come to realize that Marvin is a true bust. I have really had a problem this year with all the comments about how his game has improved. I actually feel like he has gotten worse. He seems like he is missing more free throws, he does not hit the open shot like he used to, and he consistently falls when he penetrates, and can not finish consistently. Barring a trade for a big man, I really feel like a wing player who can create his own shot, slash, and penetrate to kick or finish at the rim would really change the dynamics of this team. I feel like Marvin is that piece that we really need to get rid of because he does nothing for the team.
I think Sund is savvy enough to allow Woody to do his job how he sees fit without interfering or mandating some specifics. Therefore, if things does not go accoordingly to expectations then Woody would have hung himself with his own rope…
When we are winning and Marvin is playing solid (not quite inspired, but solid) man-to-man defense and is content to go off to the side on offense and drain the jumper when his number is called, he will look like a good fit. When the other starters aren’t bringing the swagger and we go down by 50, Marvin’s willingness to go off the the side becomes quite annoying. Let’s face it, Marvin is an athletic jump-shooter with great length and no swagger. He doesn’t have the desire to dominate; he doesn’t even seem like he has all that much fun playing. It’s like bball is his duty, not his passion.
I would take the risk with Bargnani. Marvin’s usefulness on the floor and our overall intensity, for which other players are mostly responsible, go hand-in-hand. Barg’s skill set would do us better. This trade would have been a hail no at the beginning of the season, but now, gotta roll the dice, given how Bargnani is playing with JO out. Hopefully JO gets back and drives Barg’s value down.
Please don’t say that trading Marv would be an overreacting to recent woes. I wonder if anyone knows/can look up the farthest a team has advanced after being down 50 at some point in the season. Being down 50 is no joke; it necessitates a change. This team reminds me (slightly) of the 04-05 Falcons, luckily advancing to the NFC Championship despite gaping holes shown while losing to the Chiefs 56-10 (8 rushing tds!) and the Bucs 27-0. We have some gaping holes of our own: lack of an offensive system that consistently uses the post, frontcourt depth, and the horrendous management/development of our bench (we play 82 games Woody). Unless the NBA suddenly changes its playoff format to single-elimination, we aren’t going to go as far as those Falcons, let alone win it all.
I agree Melvin. Woody will be his own judge & jury. He has a team full of vets with a couple of young players sprinkled in. Bibby, JJ & Al Horford are players that any coach would like to have. Josh & Marvin have been tutored exclusively by Woody since they came into the league. Woody has had 4 1/2 years to mold them into players that fit his system. If they continue to underperform or won’t buy into Woodys system then either the players or coach needs to go.
Bargnani still plays zero defense. If you want to trade Marvin, trade him for someone who competes on both ends of the floor.
I think shifting J-Smoove back to SF will only expose his below-average ball handling skills even more and leave him guarding perimeter players too often, making it harder for him to play help defense inside where he makes the biggest impact. And if Bargnani is gonna be on the floor, J-Smoove’s help defense will be more important than ever.
The roster is not what needs to change. If Mike Woodson would get the Hawks to push the ball more, none of these roster issues would be a big deal. I’m never a fan of changing personnel because the coach isn’t good enough to use them properly.
If any personnel move should be made it should be bench-related. I’d be open to, for example, trading Flip Murray for DeSagana Diop. Yeah, the Hawks need more size, but Bargnani is not the answer.
Game time. It has to be tonight. If not, then it doesn’t happen. The Hawks have to get back on track NOW. Or continue to spiral. Sure, a three game losing streak is not cause for panic or worry, but if you want to climb your way out of a hole, do you go lie down and take a nap? Or do you start clawing at the walls?
Now or never. Don’t compete tonight, and the wolves come out. None of the teams we visit out in the West can be taken for granted. Not even the Clippers. Game time. Let’s do this.
‘Zup doctor in the house? Makers Mark night. Big meeting today with the Pres. of the U of R. We’re collaberating on a portion of his next book. I’m a happy man in one sense, but really bummed at seeing the HAWKS in WIZARDS mode. What did WOODSON do, show our heros a tape of a LIZARDS game and say “play like this?”
After an dismal first quarter, the Hawks get the motor purring in the second, outscoring Phoenix 30-19. I was beginning to despair.
Keys to the surge include better defense (of course), and smarter offense.
One of the biggest differences is something my man SAUTEE brought up. Flip Murray is doing what he should have been doing all along: taking a few steps inside the arc and hitting the mid-range jumper. Not only is it more effective, but he looks comfortable doing it. That makes all the difference. No reckless turnover-laden drives to the basket. No impossible fadeaways against opposing SFs and PFs. No impromptu 3s without his feet being set.
It’s a good thing Marvin and Zaza are playing with inspiration on the glass, collecting 7 rebounds apiece. Josh Smith isn’t doing diddly-squat on either end. And he’s shooting as bad as JJ and Bibby. His body language tells me he’s very unhappy. Dude needs to snap the heck out of it. Where, oh where, is the guy we had back in the season’s first 5 games?
Speaking of Zaza, I’m proud of the guy. Hell of an effort out there tonight with 8 points and 7 boards, playing against Shaq and Co.
We finished the half well. Now we need to get out on a good run to start the third quarter, and maintain a lead. It can be done. It must be done. Or we will waltz our sorry butts into two losses right after that against subpar teams. Mark THAT down.
Never thought I’d say this, but can we PLEASE put Law and Flip back in?
Bibby and JJ are getting overrun on defense, and aren’t giving us a single thing on offense. This is ridiculous. And we now have more turnovers than assists. That’s an easy way to lose.
Can’t really lean too hard on a six-game stretch, but that was true when they started 6-0 at the beginning of the season.
I will say that the same flaws that were suggested, pre-season, by folks like me, are the exact same flaws that are being exposed during this stretch (brief?) of futility.
Starting backcourt (2 players): 38 shots, 10 of them made.
Starting frontcourt (3 players): 38 shots, 19 of them made.
We keep doing this…why?
10 assists, all game long. 8 turnovers. That is not a good margin by any stretch of the imagination. And here’s the deal: if we aren’t careful, we will get whooped by Golden State and L.A. as well. Golden State is always a threat to run you out of the gym, and they can make shots. L.A. has a few youngsters who are on the rise and very hungry. Now is not the time for a let-down but we’ve already lost the first game in the string. Can Woody get these guys re-focused?
Can he rely on his veteran backcourt to get things going right? I’d say that is a very good question, because his veteran backcourt didn’t deliver the goods at all tonight. Having said that, Bibby played much better than Joe in the late 4th quarter crunch. Joe gave us next to nothing on both ends of the court. And I’m tired of watching him do that. He does not lead.
And we are in need of leadership. 42 minutes, but I can hardly tell you what he was doing out there during that time. I recall a couple of one-handed shots and a few rebounds. The rest is a murky blur…
I noticed a concentrated effort on the part of Murray to move the ball, protect the ball, and of course score the ball. This guy would be an All-Star if they only counted his stats every other night.
Pachulia, as Ray pointed out, worked his azz off tonight on Shaq (was that Shaq?!), and contested (you know, made it harder to see) a number of the Diesel’s jumpers.
Morris looked fundamentally sound, and Law has developed a nice chemistry with Murray- guess the second team came away from the practice with something.
Overall, a great game to watch (even though it gave me heartburn). I don’t have a lot to complain about, just a tough loss to a very good Western Conference team on the road. Sometimes your star is going to miss the big shots.
Why don’t we run more slashing type plays with Williams and Smith? That would facilitate ball movement and make shots for the two of them, who are having to ad-lib the few shots they’re taking.
You’re absolutely right. The bill has come due. The questions that I have are:
Do we believe JJ is burned out/disinterested/doesn’t take criticism well/is injured or is just going through a slump?
Do we believe that we can’t be successful ala Golden State with a smaller front court that retains our current players?
Whatever the backcourt woes, we’ve got to work on them. More than anything else, we’re suffering from poor shooting. Big men aside, with respectable shooting from the floor and the foul line, we’ve won at least two of the past 4 we’ve dropped (Orlando at home and PHX last night).
It would be great if Woody could conjure up some of Riley’s old motivational tricks to fire this team up. That is the missing ingredient. Yea, a big man would help – if he’s a quality big man. Don’t see many of those guys running around for little or nothing. Serviceable isn’t good enough to take us to the top.
If you dig a little deeper into those shooting stats, Josh could be lumped in with Mike and Joe on that shooting. He was better, but not great…the 3 were a combined 19 for 60. Zaza and not-Thad (i.e. Marvin) were 10 for 16.
I would also add that the shooting 3 all had negative +/-, while Zaza who had to Superman-up against Shaq came in with the balanced 0 which I acknowledge as a major effort and positive for our depleted front court. The one starter with a + rating…not-Thad.
In fact, Marvin had a +6 rating while playing 40 minutes. Because we lost by 5 this means in the 8 minutes that he was out the Hawks were -11 as a team. Seems like not-Thad could tell several of y’all that his big bottom clearly pulled its weight against the Suns.
This allows the easy segue to Thad has a ton of potential, but RIGHT NOW, Marvin is a bigger contributor.
From that perspective, you make an excellent point.
Consider a few things:
1. Josh attempted only on 3, though he did attempt some jumpers. Bibby and JJ attempted 12 threes of the 38 shots they attempted, accounting for roughly one third of their shot attempts.
2. Josh has not taken that many shots in a game all season. In fact, he’s only come close to that twice. Once against Houston (19 attempts), and once against New Jersey (18 attempts). He usually takes anywhere from 10 to 14 shots in a game. Why was this game different? Easy….
3. With the clear #1 and #2 options on offense (we are running a perimeter oriented game are we not) not getting anything done, Josh automatically tries to assume a leadership role on offense. He can do this, but certain factors have to be present for it to be effective, and we’ve seen how it can work. During that span in which he averaged roughly 21 points a game, those factors were in place:
4. Josh has to be in the right spots, whether that is cutting across the lane, running the baseline for an alley-oop, or posting up/facing up a defender for a spin move or a drive to the bucket. For that to happen, we need a few things: Josh has to recognize where his sweet spots are. Whoever is handling the ball (that would be ANYBODY in your backcourt) needs to recognize his sweet spots as well and GET HIM THE BALL IN THOSE SPOTS. Finally, coaches and players alike have to stay on him about where he is most effective if he happens to stray away from what is working for him.
5. You can lump Josh into last night’s shooting debacle except for a few things: Josh did attempt some jumpers, but he only attempted one three pointer. Bibby and Johnson attempted 12 three pointers of their 38 total shot attempts. That account for nearly a third of their shot attempts. At least Josh hit for 41% (like you say, not great). But it beats 35% and 19%….from offensive options #1 and #2, no less…..
Anyway, just a different perspective, not really an argument.
I see I managed to repeat myself in #5. Started writing the post one way, then changed it to something else, and forgot what I wrote in #1. Sheesh….
I don’t get the Marvin vs. Thad Young thing.
Marvin had a good game last night. Where was the complaint on him? I must have missed it.
This +/- stuff is both a blessing and a curse, and I’m leaning more towards curse. To me, it’s just yet another stat used to prove a point or disprove a point, which of course can be undone by…you guessed it…another stat.
How does it account for guys who screw up for most of the game, then win it in the end for you with a few clutch shots? I’ll bet he still gets a big fat -10 or something.
JJ shoots 19% and has the SAME +/- rating as Smith, who shoots more than twice the percentage (with nearly identical shot attempts), grabs three times as many rebounds, assist difference is negligible, and same number of turnovers….in TEN MINUTES LESS?? Explanation, please…Oh, it must have been the foul difference. JJ only had one, Smith had 4. Yeah…
And how is it that Solo and Mo Evans have the first and third worst +/- ratings for the game when they weren’t there long enough to do any real damage (okay, Solo had three fouls, but Shaq was in the game, what do you expect)?
I just don’t get the +/- stuff….I try to concentrate on who has the higher + rating and forget the rest…
But Marvin vs. Thad Young? Is this really an issue? And uh…the stat geek results were interesting. Marvin is marginally producing more than Young right now. But to read said Stat Geek’s thoughts….Thad is the one to have for the forseeable future, unless I’m mis-reading him. I don’t have a dog in this fight, as I don’t care to compare the two, feeling that we have MUCH LARGER issues.
But consider one thing: Marvin in his FOURTH year- 13.1 and 6.1. Young in his SECOND year- 13.2 and 5.0. Add to that the fact that nearly all else is equal in just about all of the categories. Marvin hits more threes, and is more accurate from that range (38% to Young’s 34%), while Young is a tad bit better overall from the field (47.9% to Marvin’s 46.7%).
The only big difference I can see is in the number of years played. And with that, all I am going to say (for the moment) is HMMMMMM…..
Don’t let Ando get ahold of this, the bill will come due part II…
It’s not always the number of mistakes a player makes that must be noted – it’s also WHEN the player makes the mistake.
If the team is up by 10 & a player makes a bone-headed mistake it usually goes unnoticed. The same player jacks up an ill advised shot with 39 seconds in the game when we really need a bucket – that player will get criticized a lot (even if he had played well before that).
That is where Josh Smith is right now. He does so many things well during a game, but seems to continually make the “bone-headed” play at the wrong time. It seems like he takes a bad shot, throws a bad pass, dribbles the ball off his foot, forgets to box out, is late on a defensive rotation at the absolute worst times.
Everyone on the team makes these same mistakes, it just seems like Josh has a bad case of timing. Is this related to his bball IQ like some think or is it just Murphy’s law for poor Josh.
Damn, Ray, if that’s the only factor we should use in trading Smith, he could be traded for almost anyone on the blogs.
Just ask us……..
I think there’s a bit of legitimacy to the (however pointless) Marvin vs. Young discussion. Both would have been lottery picks if they had come out straight from high school. Both looked a little overrated during their freshmen years. Neither seemed to suffer much, in the eyes of NBA scouts, when they entered the draft after their first year. Marvin is longer, leading to an ongoing discussion regarding whether he’s a 3 or a 4 (answer is 3, based on his lack of post-up game and disinclination to be a rebounding force). Young is a classic 3, who’s more explosive, and who seems inclined to go to the glass a little stronger (though the RPG numbers don’t currently support that subjective opinion).
I’ll stick with what I’ve been saying for almost 4 years: before it’s all said and done, either Marvin or Josh will need to go, because they both see themselves as small forwards (even though their games are drastically different). I don’t see the Hawks giving away Josh’s unique athletic skills. And I don’t see them paying Marvin a bunch of money to stay here. Not when JJ and Horford will be coming up for extensions in the very near future.
Of course the pink elephant in the room, in my opinion, is whether JJ really intends to stay in Atlanta for the long haul. If the organization gets an inkling he won’t, it changes the dynamics of how they would treat both Marvin and Bibby (if Bibby makes it through the trade deadline).
Here we are at the half, against a hapless Clippers team. Maybe this is just what the doctor ordered. I sure hope so. The Clips can’t shoot, can’t score, can’t do much of anything. We lose this game, and we’ve had it. We’re up by 11. We should be able to extend that to 20 and stay ahead by double figures the rest of the night if we continue to play decent defense, and execute moderately well on offense. Of course, we expect better than “moderate”, but right now, let’s just get a win.
Numbers at the half:
Bibby and JJ: 5-14 from the field.
Marvin and Smith: 7-12 from the field. Zaza has only taken a single shot, but he’s been Hercules on the glass.
Pulled away in that one, and good thing, as this is not a team we should be losing to. A loss last night (or rather this morning) would have been crushing. Of course, it would have been exposing as well…
We will have to come up with a better effort vs the Warriors, as THAT team can shoot and score, and will make you pay for missed defensive assignments.
yup ray under statement there. found a worse shooting and defending team to stop the run of adversity. a step in the right direction not a cure as we didnt exactly swamp a team without three potent players on the injury list in randolph, davis and kamen. imagine some nbdl teams could go=ive them a time with the construct of their team. it should have been a game where our starters got 28 minutes and bench 20 minutes much like the magic did to us last week. we have to play every game it my inclination and when we do we are competitive. woody seems to want to play to make it a one possession game every night. okay to do that in the playoffs but it will grind a team down if it is done each and every night. stress is too great.
All forwards you mentioned were mentioned in my earlier post. I really can’t think of many starting small forwards in the league that I would not take over Marvin. I my estimation he is a bum, and we should get rid of him asap. If he is not wide open for a jump shot, he is useless.
Rod, I’m not calling Marvin a bum but I think those other guys are more of a classic 3 then Marvin. They all have the ability to shoot the 3 and put the ball on the floor to get to the rim…. Now I now one SF I may take Marvin over and that’s L.Deng. The guy is not living up to his contract at all…
Money not included, would you not agree that L. Deng’s skill set is better than Marvin’s. Let’s not forget Marvin was the # 2 pick in the draft, which would be higher than every other player named. That is why I say he is a bum. For the #2 pick in the draft, you have to bring much more to the table than he does. I promise you, and this is no lie, there is a guy I play with every day in Marietta, who is about 6′5 who could bring more to the Hawks than Marvin Williams, and he can’t even make it in the NBDL.
Man, you all are willing to give up on Marvin way too easy.
Marvin has game, it just doesn’t fit in Woody’s system as well as any of us (or Woody, or Marvin) would like. There’s about 10 teams in this league that would love to have Marvin, and would let him score 20 a game. He has that kind of talent, but he’s the poster child for what was wrong between Billy Knight and Woody.
In short, Marvin’s talents don’t fit Woody’s system. Anyone who thinks even Kevin Durant would have fared any better on the Hawks last season than Big Al needs a quick reality check.
Bottom line, you’re not going to replace Marvin on the Hawks’ roster with equivalent talent. You can look to find someone who might be a better fit in Woody’s system — but who is to say (besides Gund and the ASG) that Woody will even be here next season. Marvin can play the 2,3 and 4 positions, and in the right system — play any of them well.
So, realistically, why do you trade Marvin? There is no deal out there that makes sense on its own. None.
Now, there’s a lot of deals that would make sense in conjunction with dealing Marvin — but most of those would require blowing up the core players we have now — most likely either Bibby or JJ. As bad as the last week’s been for the Hawks, we’re actually okay. Even good teams are going to have these lulls in the season, and this is no time to grab a 500-pound rock and jump off the cliff in frustration.
Fortunately for the Hawks now, Marvin has shown enough for us to invest in — but not so much as to make him unsignable long-term in the off season. Plus, other GMs around the league know he’s likely to be more valuable than what his next paycheck would suggest — but not so much as to over pay for him. If someone like Detroit make him a Jon Koncak offer, we’d be wise to let him walk — or at least get something in a sign-and-trade.
On the other hand, if you have to move him, you probably would want to do it now — but not alone. You absolutely will not get the value needed for the long-term of the franchise by swapping him straight up for anyone who’s currently being offered. And a mid to late-first round draft pick is just a contract albatross for this team right now.
Before last year, there was talk about moving him for Aldridge — which would have been the correct move, but BK’s hands were tied because Portland wanted to use the move to dump salary as well — and the ASG opposed that. Now that deal is nowhere close to being on the table.
I think the best target for the Hawks might be someone like Chris Wilcox. It’s pretty sad when a bench player from the worst team in the league might help you, but he’s got an expiring contract at the end of the season, and he can be had for not too much — something that the ASG would likely find attractive. If nothing else, he’s a big that can run the floor. His defense is poor at times, but he’s another guy stuck playing (when he does play) in a system that doesn’t match his talents. But something tells me his skills would work with Woody.
Anyway, I’m rambling — but please, please, please don’t throw Marvin under the bus just yet. He’s got a load more talent and desire than 90% of the cats in this league, and he wants to play here. Trust me, that’s worth a lot more than anyone else you could bring in here for him. If he’s still here in two more years, you’ll see. If not, we’ll talk about letting him go in the same tones we use for not originally drafting CP3 in the first place.
Rod, I agree Deng skills set is better than Marvin but I think Marvin has more talent than Deng (if that make sense to ya). I think Marvin has a better overall game than Deng. He’s a better rebounder, defender and possibly 3 pt shooter. However, Deng offensive skills are far superior to Marvin at this stage but I agree with Don that Marvin best years are ahead of him. He may turn out to have a better career than Deng. Also, once Marvin is in a better offensive system (whether here in the ATL under a new coach or elsewhere) I think we will see a much improve player.
Don, what type of contract would you offer Marvin if you were the Hawks? I say 3yrs/24mil. If he’s not producing more by than, then he’s outta here…
I get what you’re saying about Marvin. I agree that we shouldn’t “throw him under the bus”, as it were. The guy has talent, and he IS laboring under a coach that is not well matched with this roster.
But I have always believed that great players excel and exceed, regardless of where they are. Even when they are not living up to their potential, they are still exceeding the production of others. Marvin has not shown himself to be this kind of guy. And it’s not like Woody is the only control-oriented coach in the NBA, so we cannot continue to use that as the SOLE excuse for things like this.
On the one hand, some of us never felt like Marvin should have been drafted so high, and cannot see what was supposedly seen in him at the time. Others who disagree have presented “proof” that Marvin was thought of that highly at the time he was about to be drafted. Some, like Dominique Wilkins, said that he was one of those guys that only comes around “once every ten years.”
The people who claim thusly, and say that Marvin deserved his position in the draft, have a point. And while I don’t like to judge guys according to draft position alone (because they cannot help who drafts them where), they cannot have it both ways: if this was where he was projected, and all else is equal, then so shall he be judged by that position in the draft. But they don’t want to see it that way. Which means we should be seeing Carmelo Anthony type stats, right? Otherwise, unlike another notable #2 pick (Darko Milicic), he fails in the shadow of his draft slot.
I don’t think we should be in a blazed-up hurry to get rid of the guy. But I don’t think we’ll have much trouble replacing 13 and 6, either. And more than anything, I think we should listen to reasonable offers. 8 offers on Josh Childress were passed on while the ASG and Sund held their cards closely, grinning to themselves at the hand they figured was a house-beater…
Melvin, I think the $8M is about right, but there’s no way his agent would let anyone get away with just a three year contract at that amount, especially as young as he is. I’d guess 5-years $40M as the floor, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets either a 3-year $30M offer, or a 5-year $45M offer this off season.
A lot is going to depend on what Sund and the ASG want to do with Bibby, and how we want to be setup for the Summer of 2010 … the Armageddon of all salary cap summers unless a lot of folks resign this year.
Don, did I just the Bulls than Deng out of the game on their final posession of regulation after he made the defensive play of the game coming up with a steal…… never mind he just hit 2 big 3’s in overtime
Don, did I just see the Bulls take Deng out of the game on their final posession of regulation after he made the defensive play of the game coming up with a steal…… nevermind, he just hit 2 big 3’s in overtime
He is to NBA coaching what Harry Potter is to French cooking. Somewhere there is a village deprived of its idiot because Vinny is in Chicago.
Heck, let me say it again: Chicago Bulls head coach, Vinny Del Negro. I think Ray and Ando could use this forum to coach the Bulls for a game and do better than … Vinny Del Negro.
Seriously, we’d all just have to watch the game on NBA TV or on the web. Ray and Ando would have to have their laptops on, and just feed the guys on the court the plays we post on the blog, and the rotations we type in. Either that, or maybe the Bulls can find those elephants from the circus that picked Florida to beat Oklahoma in the NCAA BCS championship game. Heck, we’d all work for peanuts and be better for the Bulls than Vinnie Del Negro.
In all seriousness, I think he’s a pretty bad coach too, but I’m no fan of that roster John Paxson has put together. They really should ship everyone but Rose out.
And for those who complain that Josh Smith doesn’t have basketball IQ — Tyrus Thomas is what Josh Smith WOULD be without basketball IQ.
Finally the Hawks played good ball. When they hang their hat on defense they are hard to beat. Bibby and JJ kept their shot attempts down and their assists up. You can’t win this this league shooting so many jumpers. When Marvin and Josh drive the ball the defense seems to be better. Without Hartford the bench is getting a chance to play more. They have responded with good play even in their losses.
Don,
I won’t dare complain about Vinny when we still have Woody. By the way, Woody is in his 5th yr of being the head guy and it’s Vinny 1st. Maybe Vinny will get better with experience. Not sure what can help Woody besides a hammer to the head…
The difference between Woody and Vinny is that (and I can’t believe I’m saying this …) Woody has a clue about spacing, dribble penetration and actually setting up the outside shots in his offenses, along with a really good defensive scheme when the players aren’t too tired or whatever (and sometimes Josh defines the word, whatever …) to create a lot of turnovers and keep opposing teams to one shot per trip down the floor.
Vinny, on the other hand, would make your high school coach cringe if someone on TV would break down the tapes. No spacing, no offensive lanes, their sets are woefully inconsistent. A lot of times, I see pick up teams in the gym with more offensive continuity. On the other hand, I do have to agree with the criticism of Paxton for a part of that — because I really can’t figure out how that team is built to win consistently.
In that regard, Woody and Vinny are alike — both have teams that are not exactly built to their strengths in coaching. But, at least Woody (as stubborn as he is) has a plan and a team mold he’s trying (for five years now) to make work. And I can see the effort in the players to make it work. It’s just that sometimes we can all see where he’s trying to put round pegs into square holes — especially at the 5.
I just don’t see the same effort from Vinny’s Bulls — and they may have more talent. Plus, I’m always hearing how he’s ‘lost’ the team in the locker room — and that’s never a good sign in a player-driven league like the NBA.
Don, I really hadn’t followed the Bulls that closely to even make any type of analysis on Vinny the coach. As for Woody, I can’t understand what he trying to accomplish. I know he want his blueprint to be good defense but what in the heck is his trying to do offensive. What type are team are we? It seems he prefer the halfcourt game but we have little to no inside play. And I think every coach in the league has figure out how to defend the IsoJoe play. And his player rotations, we won’t even go there b/c that topic has been well documented on these blogs. Not ever coach is ment to be a headcoach and I think Woody is the picture child for that phrase…
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mike
December 16th, 2008
3:17 pm
Lets destroy the OldGuys (celtics) tomorrow! Oh and if you are going to the game (like me) make sure you taunt Boston players and fans alike. Thats all I ask. The more personal insults the better. Make it a living hell for those guys and their bandwagon fans.
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Bob
December 16th, 2008
3:19 pm
Glad to see a new Hawks blog up and running! I think we have a pretty good team this year. Al Horford is amazing! (I guess I am biased cause I am a Gator fan). Anyways, Go Hawks!!
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JAMES KIRKLAND
December 16th, 2008
3:26 pm
WHAT EVER IT TAKES THE HAWKS NEEDS TO GET AL JEFFERSON FROM THE TIMBERWOLVES TO COMPLETE THIS RUN AT A CHAMPIONSHIP, GIVE UP MARVIN,AC, AND A #1 PICK. WHAT IS YOUR TAKE?
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Mychelfromatl
December 16th, 2008
3:26 pm
FINALLY!!!! God has saw fit to shine light on the Atlanta Sports Universe(Well except for the Thrashers)…I’m starting to lose my mind!! But one thing I do know is: Wednesday 7:00pm Hawks vs Celtics!!!!:) Time to show the world what we’re about, Philips Arena is going to be CRAAAZZZYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!
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Astro Joe
December 16th, 2008
3:33 pm
Congratulations! All I can say is one out of two ain’t bad! LOL!!!!
Much success on running the forum. Sincerely!
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Volman
December 16th, 2008
3:36 pm
Ray and Ando, congrats on being appointed this neat position. I am sure you guys will do great with this! Very exciting!
Now can we get some break down on the Hawks/Cheaters game tomorrow? I mean Celtics.
I do not like Paul Pierce one bit!! You can add Kevin Garnett, Perkins (what has the guy done?) and Sam Cassell to the list!
Go Hawks!
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Sautee
December 16th, 2008
3:37 pm
Enter your comments here
And so it begins!
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Sautee
December 16th, 2008
3:40 pm
Enter your comments here
So do you think Jerome Jurenovich will call you the Hox Hax?
Hey Ando, you DID say “babble on”".
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Slim Pickinz
December 16th, 2008
3:44 pm
It’s about time the Hawks get some recognition from the local media in this town.
The Atlanta Spirit may be broke and bouncing from one lawsuit to another – but our HAWKS are going to make Atlanta proud !!! Post Season is going to be a regular thing in the ATL from now on !!
We’re here baby !!!
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mountain_jim
December 16th, 2008
3:45 pm
Congrats to you two from a long-time Sekou blog reader but only an occasional poster, as I don’t have the League Pass and get to see so few games on the TV. (Hawks network games blacked out here in NC) But I get to see tomorrow’s game! Go Hawks!
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Melvin Jenkins
December 16th, 2008
3:47 pm
I have been a Atlanta Hawks Fan all my life. I am 49 years old & I can’t ever remember a better looking Hawks team. The entire starting line is sound. We even have a gooding looking pench. This team should monday night 12/15/08 that we can not only compete with the best in the nba. But, we can defeat them. This team rivals the Hawks of 1958-59.
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sksmith
December 16th, 2008
3:52 pm
Well, well, well. The boys finally showed up for work. It’s about time fellas. Glad to have you join the party. And maybe now instead of busting my dome over something I can join in here and bust yours. Ha. This ought to be a trip for us all.
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doc
December 16th, 2008
3:54 pm
Enter your comments here
well, i can say we will certainly have a little more room on the sekou blog now that we have gotten rid of you two hacks so aptly named. thank you ajc!
heh heh, luv ya, mean it and good luck and form going forward.
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Marvin Hamlisch
December 16th, 2008
4:01 pm
Not that I would be a better blogger (of course I would), but perhaps you might learn, Ray, that the punctuation goes inside the second quote mark. For example: “Oh boy, these Hawks Hacks are a couple of geniuses,” Marvin said.
Oh, by the way, what qualifies you to “break down,” anything but the salad bar?
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Yon
December 16th, 2008
4:04 pm
Thank god they finally allowed people who know about the Hawks to run this. The last guy was a disgrace. Looking forward to finally having some real discussion about our team!
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Rod Stone
December 16th, 2008
4:11 pm
Why does Speedy travel on road trips?
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jhan
December 16th, 2008
4:13 pm
Congrats Ray & Ando. This should be more than interesting to say the least! Let’s roll!
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Ryder
December 16th, 2008
4:13 pm
Glad to see that two of the faithful members of Sekou’s “family” have branched off on their own. Ando, are we going to be subject to a lot of debates regarding Atlanta’s financial status from time to time? Ray, hope you will be the calming yin to Ando’s raging yang LOL. Looking forward to the great blogs between you two. Congratulations!
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tommyt
December 16th, 2008
4:14 pm
I’m so glad you guys restarted a fan blog…I’ll enjoy reading you and your reader’s comments during this excellent season. With the international market turmoil…it’ll be interesting to see whether Childress stays in Greece…I know there is an out for Childress…is there an out for the Greek team?
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Sautee
December 16th, 2008
4:19 pm
Enter your comments here
OK, gang, let’s get a thread going.
How can the Hawks best maximize the talents of their two young big men, both good passers, but as yet not unstoppable in the post? Ideas?
I’ve posted in the past that we should use some high-low sets with them, with Bibby out high and JJ and Marvin on the wings. Any takers?
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Josh
December 16th, 2008
4:41 pm
I hear all this talk about Boston or Houston signing Dikembe Mutumbo. How about the Hawks make him an offer to return. He’d be a good fit playing some minutes at center so Al could move to PF. The man can still play.
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Daddyrich
December 16th, 2008
4:42 pm
Congrats Ray and Ando. I dont post much but do read Sekou’s blog quite often. You both definitely have the passion and guts to run a fan site. Good luck!
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Greg
December 16th, 2008
4:52 pm
The main thing with the Hawks is we have to many guys playing out of position. JSmoove need to be moved to the 3 and Al to the 4. We need to offer Bibby a 2 year extention and trade Marvin or ZAZA for someone like Chris Kaman or Joel Prizybilla, this will give us rebounding and shot blocking that we miss against the elite team. I like our current team, but it won’t win a championship which is the goal of the Hawks.
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MannyT
December 16th, 2008
5:01 pm
First, congrats to you new Hacks.
Now I wonder what will happen with 3rd shift on Sekou’s blog now that the late shift has its own gig. I wish you all the success of a Law & Order spinoff. They just keep going and going like that Energizer Bunny…or an Ando post
You want a leaguewide topic…How about you’re fired and you got the best end of that deal. With all the recent NBA firings, are any of those teams better off in the short or long run for getting rid of the coach less than 1/3 of the way into the season? No camp with the new coach in charge. No opportunity to select from a broader group of coaching candidates.
*Just checking to see if new blog has old formatting rules* or **do I need to learn new tricks?**
How is it that [we don't even make the list of games to be voted on](http://www.nba.com/FanNight/) for Fan Night?
BWAF
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Alex
December 16th, 2008
5:06 pm
Congratulations on the position fellas! Hopefully yall will be better than the other guy who used to do this. I think the Hawks will win tomorrow but the key will be Bibby vs Rondo. Bibby is gonna have to play like his younger years in vancouver and sactown for us to win it tomorrow!!!
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ant banks
December 16th, 2008
5:08 pm
keys to victory tomorrow:
1. Hawks need to shoot atleast 48% from the field
2. Shoot 80% free throw
3. Get 48+ rebounds
4. Shoot 40% from 3pt.
5. Score 100+pts
6. Fewer than 14 turnovers
7. 30pts from the bench
8. 18+ assists
Any 3 combinations will get the Hawks a victory. All of this came from analysis of last season’s stats.
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one66soul
December 16th, 2008
5:09 pm
HEY RYAN CAMERON & HAWKS ORGANIZATION PLEASE HaVE A SOUNDBITE OF A CRYING BABY WEDNESDAY WHEN BIG BABY ENTERS THE GAME…
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blackprix
December 16th, 2008
5:14 pm
GO CELTICS!!!!
Another Championship awaits the Cs in 2009!
Hawks are wannabees – not this year!
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ant banks
December 16th, 2008
5:31 pm
watch how many people come to the game with celtics gear on. 3 yrs ago, not even the diehards wore celtics green, now everyone and their grannies sport the celtic green. if you are from atlanta, work in atlanta, pay state taxes in ga., YOU need to be cheering for the home team which is the ATLANTA HAWKS!! don’t ride jocks, it is bad for your health
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ant banks
December 16th, 2008
5:35 pm
Coach Woodson, Doc uses his bench to perfection. It may be to late to go to our bench. You should have been using them during the indy, philly, charlotte games so that you can go to them in the big game. there is no way that you can put solo in against garnett or powe and he ain’t seen no time in 3 games. law would be a better defender on rondo than bibby, but you failed to get him ready.
Please put Horford at the 5. He gets too many fouls at the 4 gaurding garnett.
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Wink from Lithonia
December 16th, 2008
5:36 pm
Congrats guys, good to see someone seize the ball and run with it. Now bring it like always… do you! Hope Woody can get the team to run the Celtics out of town. It all depends on how the Bibby / Rondo match up shakes out; should be an exciting game. Again congrats Ray & Ando!
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hometown hawk
December 16th, 2008
5:37 pm
Ha Ha, this is funny. Maybe you guys will start to get locker room passes etc with your newfound media position. I have been a longtime follower of the blog and have posted under various names throughout the years of both misery and celebration. I look forward to the breakdowns and will be sure to input my 2 cents. Good luck with it
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ant banks
December 16th, 2008
5:37 pm
“BLACK PRIX” you are one of those jock riders that i was talkin’. were you supportin’ the celts 3 yrs ago? no! but now sense they are hot you are on them. i am goin’ to remember your handle, 3 yrs from now when they dismantle the team due to age/money, i want to see you supportin’ them then. i been wit’ the hawks durin’ the 13win season thats why i can scream so loud now. not a bandwagon jumper.
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Kappy
December 16th, 2008
5:56 pm
Oh no. Not you two.
As a blogger on the original Sekou blogs of four years ago, I can honestly say that you Hawk fans are in good hands with Ray and Ando. There won’t be a pair that brings more honest, intense, and heartfelt love for the Hawks.
Good luck guys, I’ll be reading.
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Don!
December 16th, 2008
6:03 pm
Grats on the blog guys!
I just wanted to make sure I got a post in here, so in years to come I won’t be labeled a bandwagon jumper. I can say that I’m OG and posted on the very first Big Ray and Ando blog.
I also think we need to get T-shirts for us persevering Hawks fans, to segregate us from the folks who just started paying attention post-Horford. I’m thinking something like, “I survived Lon Kruger” or “I remember 13-69″ or “I can’t believe we traded for J.R. Rider.”
And since this is a all-NBA blog, did anyone else notice that the nerdy disturbed guy in the new ESPN bus commercial is the same guy who did “the” Glibert Arenas video. If not, he’s a dead ringer for him. (NSFW link: http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1893214 )
Later,
Don!
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Najeh Davenpoop
December 16th, 2008
6:04 pm
Haha this is dope as hell! I look forward to this blog having a bright future, full of commas.
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Sha
December 16th, 2008
6:07 pm
Enter your comments here
Congrats Big Ray and Ando…do a good job here and you’ll have your own TV show (like Mike & Mike in the morning) “Ray and Ando Comin At You”….from the Big A
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chuckw/deadjournalist
December 16th, 2008
6:10 pm
Congrats Ray and Ando – Good to see you guys running the blog.
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MannyT
December 16th, 2008
6:15 pm
Hey DON
How did you put that link in the post? I know a guy that will need that info for 90% of his posts. I only need it for half of mine.
Because a site like this one is entirely too valuable for a serious sports fan that records games.
http://www.shouldiwatch.com/
BWAF
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Don!
December 16th, 2008
6:24 pm
It looks like you got it MannyT — just post the address, and it will link up automatically. I think this is standard vBulletin command software. So you and do stuff like [i]italics[/i] and [b]bold[/b] type much easier.
Hopefully this new board’s software will carry over to Sekou and DOB’s blogs — because, to be honest, if it wasn’t for those two guys, I’d have quit coming to ajc.com a long time ago!
Later,
Don!
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Don!
December 16th, 2008
6:25 pm
Well, the faces work.
But not the word script …
Later,
Don!
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Banshee 29
December 16th, 2008
6:26 pm
I have been a Hawks fan for 20+ years. This team (and more importantly, coach) is NOT a serious playoff contender. We were nearly 20 games under .500 last year, never played anything close to a competitive game away from Phillips in the playoffs, and all of the suddden we are serious contenders? Lets start with an above .500 season and then let us get excited. Can Woodson!
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rms
December 16th, 2008
6:52 pm
dang guys, nice job of moving from the sekou blog to having your own. personally i have been a hawks fan since i grew up here, but i moved around a lot still managing to watch them on t.v. Now I am grown now and can somewhat affort to actually go to the arena and watch them play. Would be nice to see them make a move and get some size down low in the paint. what do u think?
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Matt = niremetal
December 16th, 2008
7:23 pm
Congrats, Ando and Ray. Y’all deserve the spotlight
.
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Star of the Zanarkand Abes!
December 16th, 2008
7:34 pm
Blog software upgrade? ABOUT TIME, AJC!!!
This MAY even make up for the blatant lack of a Hawks Vent…ALMOST!
LET’S GO HAWKS!!! SHOCK THE WORLD!!!
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cp
December 16th, 2008
8:09 pm
Enter your comments here
for some reason my first time responding did not go through. once again congrats guys.
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Big Ray
December 16th, 2008
8:26 pm
Guys & Gals,
We really appreciate the support and encouragement in this endeavor. Ando and I feel very honored to get the opportunity to do this. Truthfully, any of us could do this. So many guys from Sekou’s Beat Blog have such incredible talent, and we are just two of those many, many contributors from that nationally famous blog. As always, pile in and pile on as you please. The more, the better!
Marvin Hamlisch,
Good correction on the grammatical error. I’d use the excuse of what I was drinking when I posted, but that’s poor sport. Now you really don’t want to go there with me on salad bars. I’ll break ‘em all down! As for what qualifies me to break anything sports related down….nothing. I’m a fan, and this is a fan’s forum. So if you can blog better, then bring it, because you’ll only make THIS blog the better for it! Looking forward to your contributions. Seriously.
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Ben Halpern
December 16th, 2008
8:35 pm
If you are going to the HAWKS/Celtics game tomorrow, you better wear your shock the world tshirt that was giving out during the playoffs. The players want us to go NUTS so lets GO NUTS
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HB Ando
December 16th, 2008
8:37 pm
And so it begins:
Sam, on the REAL blog just posted that he doesn’t believe tomorrow nights’ Celtics game is a “statement”, in his opinion (IMO, he says, forgetting the H? Guess not, huh, Sam).
I have to concur, and intended to address that very point tonight.
It’s not a “statement” game. But it is a measuring stick, in the truest since of the term. We should be able to measure quite a bit about the Hawks, after tomorrow night. We know what they did, in taking the C’s to 7 games last spring. We know what they did, 4 weeks ago, in about as quality of a game a team can have while still coming out with an L.
So now we’re playing the red-hot, World Champion Celtics, at home. And they know what we did last spring and four weeks ago (their quotes, in Sekou’s article, highlighted their respect for the Hawks, and the acknowledgment that they must bring their best effort if they want to win here in Atlanta). They know what we did against the Cavs on Saturday.
So the truth is that both teams go into this game with full respect for their opponent, and understanding the implications of a win. Or a loss. There can be know excuses from either team, should they lose. The outcome of this game will literally measure the level of the Hawks’ growth, from last spring to now.
Match ups are, as always, critical to the expectations for the game. I mentioned last night that the Bibby-Rondo match up is huge (something that many folks have noted, so it’s obviously not a novel comment). Both are playing great. Maybe Rondo caught Bibby by surprise last spring. Maybe Bibby wasn’t 100% healthy. Or maybe Rondo’s length and athleticism are just a challenging match for Bibby. But, again, we should be able to measure where things stand, NOW, based on how it goes down between those two.
More important is how Woody plans on handling minutes and rotations on his front line. The Hawks (Woody) have done a pretty good job of imposing their will on other teams, as it relates to matching up. But the C’s front line is one of the ones in the league that really challenges Horford-as-center. Me, I don’t think it’s the best, defensively, to have Horford guard Perkins, Smith cover KG, and Marvin take Pierce (if he’s limited, it will really minimize this point). Zaza on Perkins, Horford on Garnett, and Smith hounding Pierce, should be much stronger. Of course, that then limits Marvin’s minutes, and it makes us a much weaker shooting team, on offense. So the Hawks are going to have to pick their poison, on one end of the court.
This all goes back to the long-standing discussion regarding whether the Hawks can ever reach their potential, in the coming years, with Horford at center.
Sautee addresses utilizing the high-low with one of our young bigs, and notes that a strong post game, on offense, is still lacking with these guys. But the challenge, without obtaining a legit big who can face the basket and stretch opposing defenses, while allowing Horford to slide over to the four, is that Horford at the elbow still leaves us without a legit post scorer, other than JJ (versus opposing two’s). And we really don’t want JJ taking a beating down there, and minimizing both his outside shooting and play-making ability from the perimeter.
Guess we’ll see.
Should be crazy loud at Philips, and that’s one of the greatest things about an improved Hawks team!
Thanks to all our brothers from Sekou’s blog, as we feel like we represent all of us.
P.S. Astro, thanks for the props. But I know Ray is disappointed that you only approved of my half of the partnership……..
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jhan
December 16th, 2008
8:58 pm
Good one Ando!!
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Big Ray
December 16th, 2008
8:58 pm
Just read Sekou’s article on Hawks and Celtics players sounding off. It looks to me like we are getting much more respect out of these guys than we used to. Conspicuously missing however, is a comment from Kevin Garnett….
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Big Ray
December 16th, 2008
9:14 pm
Don,
We’re trying to get something down about that. Apparently, the program that this runs on is a bit of a guinea pig. We’re also working on some other odds and ends. As it stands right now, this blog is not in the usual Hawks Hack spot. Hopefully, I will find out soon enough when and if it will be.
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Don!
December 16th, 2008
9:34 pm
Big Ray, I would have never of seen this if not for the front page link. So someone on the web team loves you guys. Oh, and you have to give me the ! in Don! because there’s a lot of Don’s running around on the boards, and a couple of them are … well … not nice people.
Anyway, as a dislocated Atlanta fan living in Jersey near Philadelphia — if you ever want the talk radio scoop on this end about the Hawks, or just wonder what it’s like to live next to a town that boos Santa — just let me know. Right now it’s pretty funny listening about all the 76ers issues, and having the whole basketball-crazed masses ready to take pitchforks to the streets because their team is waaaaaaaaaaay under performing.
Trust me, there are days when the Hawks don’t look like they’re playing to their potential — but its been two solid months of under achieving up here. Let me tell you, the Sixers should thank their lucky stars that the Phillies won the world series, and that the Eagles consistently provide lots of cover drama — or else it would look like one of those really bad street demonstrations on game nights outside the arena here.
Anyway, I think the Hawks’ game tomorrow night will turn a long way on how good Pierce’s knee is. As good as the Celtics are, they can’t replace his scoring without losing part of their team rhythm. Pierce takes the pressure off of KG and Rondo to score, and when Ray has to ignite their offense, he seems to wear down pretty quickly.
Well, tomorrow will tell.
GO HAWKS!
Later,
Don!
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bigjohnhawksfan
December 16th, 2008
9:44 pm
Someone please shut KG up for good! I’m tired of him pounding his chest like a baffoon!
Rise Up, Atlanta!
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Big Ray
December 16th, 2008
10:16 pm
Don!,
I will try to remember to have your name typed right, but I swear it makes me feel like I’m yelling at you, LOL!
The Sixers are definitely underperforming, and the bad thing is that people who don’t know it, will soon find out that Maurice Cheeks wasn’t the real problem. Did Cheeks suddenly tell Iguodala to start underperforming? No. Did Cheeks fail to add some true shooters to the team? No. And there it is.
Having said THAT, can another coach come in there and be succesful with the squad? Possibly, but one wonders just HOW effective that coach would be. More often than not, the kinds of coaches that can take a squad and make it perform better than it ever has, are the same kinds that require creative control. Need an example? Try D’Antoni. He comes in an changes the climate in New York immediately. But he also has creative control (or at least some help from Walsh, the GM). Suddenly, Chris Duhon is the starting pg. David Lee is no longer coming off the bench. Out goes Crawford and Randolph. Marbury is a goner (sooner or later). And the Knicks are no longer such an eye-sore to watch.
I think Philly has potential still, but it’s hard to say how you’d make it work. They were built to run, and then….enter Brand. Running? Uh, not Brand. Which is why I suspect he turned down an even bigger payday in Golden State (where the reported offer was in excess of $90 million). And we all know what kind of ball they play in Golden State. I don’t know how you make it work in Philly, but somebody has their work cut out for them. And that person should be Ed Stefanski….
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HB Ando
December 16th, 2008
11:44 pm
Answers (OK, opinions) to questions posted here:
-JK, I don’t think there’s much we could offer Minny to dislodge Al Jefferson (and it would take some package including Al Horford if it was even possible). Now, as many, including doc, have noted, McHale is a perennial favorite for worst GM of the year. But he’s no longer the GM, and I don’t see Jefferson anywhere but Minnesota.
-Tommy T-I don’t think Chills’ team has an out. And given the economy, stateside, and worldwide, I’m not sure he’s thinking about returning to the NBA right now. His owners are billionaire brothers, so I don’t see him returning before he gets the full value of his 3-year, tax-free deal.
-Josh- I agree that Mutombo could be of value here. But I don’t see him going anywhere but back to Houston or up to Boston, for a shot at a ring.
-Greg- Been saying the same thing for six months. The long-term future of this team’s front line is built around Josh and Al. At this stage, the optimal scenario would see the Hawks adding a big man who could defend the five, and provide us with a consistent, legitimate face-up game, from around 20 feet. By stretching opposing defenses, Horford could develop his post game, and Josh would see far less crowded lanes to attack. Additionally, Horford could avoid the wear-and-tear of pounding on opposing centers, dominate opposing fours, and Josh could be the ultimate nightmare defending opposing 3’s.
-Banshee- We’re 15-9, so legitimate playoff contenders we are. I’ve been accused of being hyper-critical, over the years, but you have to call it like you see it. Beyond the record, a thorough observation of the other Eastern Conference teams finds no one else standing out, other than Boston, Cleveland (who we just beat), Orlando (who we’ve already beaten), and the uncertain memory of Detroit (who I can’t discount, but who looks awful vulnerable). After that, it’s a pretty wide open field, with lots of potential playoff contenders, and no real track record for any of their current line ups. Major injuries could end up playing a critical role in how the East shapes up (one only has to look at Washington, without Arenas and Haywood, for a team who’s expectations have been obliterated by health).
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Sautee
December 17th, 2008
10:02 am
Well, I’m glad I bookmarked the site last night. Looks like the only way in now.
We need to pressure Pierce on the offensive end. Make him play defense (not that he doesn’t), but make sure he has to work so hard on that end that it affects his offense.
Whomever he is guarding should take it straight to his chest.
The other big need for tonight is offensive rebounds. When you play against a great defense, you need all the extra possessions you can garner to offset the lower percentage they will force us to shoot.
And if we’re gonna live by the three……… well I hope we hit a good percentage.
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HOMEGROWN aka E.J.
December 17th, 2008
11:27 am
Enter your comments here
Well, Congrat on the new site. I got the link from Sautee on the other blog. You guys have taken this thing to another level and that should be commended. Hawks talk should be this way.
Bibby has to take care of business tonight. He can’t let Rondo break down the defence and dish/score. Bibby has to keep him out of the line and that will prevent the fouls to the front court. In the future how do i get back to the blog? I need my way in. Yes sir! Congrats again.
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mountain_jim
December 17th, 2008
11:49 am
What’s it going to take for AJC to add a link to this area with the other ‘fan blogs?’ Without Sautee’s kind link in Sekou’s blog, I could not find my way back here. Now bookmarked, but jeez AJC, get the link out there on the main Sports page!
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Big Ray
December 17th, 2008
12:19 pm
Mountain Jim,
It’s my understanding that they are working on it. I don’t know when it will be up and running normal, and I’m sorry that I don’t have a better answer at the moment. Patience, my young Jedi. Or so I keep telling myself…lol!
HomeGrown aka E.J.,
You’re right that Rondo cannot be allowed to play his game against us, or it will be curtains, and very quickly. However, I would not lay that task solely at the feet of Bibby. I do not believe Bibby to have the speed (and certainly not the length) to contain Rondo, injury or no injury (as was the excuse during the playoffs last season). However, Bibby has been playing good, solid defense to the best of his somewhat limited ability.
Our team defense will be the bigger factor. Bibby will have to make some good individual plays on defense (as will others…and this is something that guys like Horford and Smith excel at), but it will be very important that guys rotate quickly and accurately. In other words, proper execution of team defense will be PARAMOUNT.
But that also leaves room for another idea that some will no doubt get sick of me bringing up: the use of Acie Law. While we also have Flip Murray as an option if Bibby is getting torched, and the others are unable to help him, Law is a guy you want to use. Why? Because good defense isn’t just about staying in front of your man. It’s also about making HIM work hard on defense when you’re on offense. Law and Flip will both drive to the hole, which means that defenders will have to work harder physically to stop them. It also means that they will be much more likely to draw fouls. We all know that drawing fouls causes problems on the defensive end. That’s one of the disadvantages with Bibby, although lately he has seemed to be a bit more aggressive in that area (whereas previously he would only drive or try to penetrate maybe once or twice in an entire game). We’re still going to need his shooting, but the Celts know this and will probably defend it like crazy. Enter Marvin Williams…
At the same time, our guys have to be careful about driving to the basket, as the Celts are not stupid by any stretch. They WILL try to draw charges. Maybe not early and often, but certainly after someone has managed to penetrate the defense enough times for it to be a concern.
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HOMEGROWN aka E.J.
December 17th, 2008
12:34 pm
I agree with that thought. You have to make your man work on both ends of the court. If Rondo doesn’t have to keep up with Bibby on the drive, then that gives him that much more time to catch a breath or two. AC WILL drive the lane, and that will make him work on both ends.
I also agree about the team defence. Al and JSMOOTH do a great job of rotating to the open man. This makes us very hard to score against because they are both long and can block shots. No easy looks means the shot clock is running down and that creates a desperation, shot clock beating basket. If they make those, then fine, but it is still good defence.
How will AC deal with the length of Rondo?
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Sautee
December 17th, 2008
12:36 pm
So Ray, what’s the over/under for Flip committing charging fouls tonight?
I’ll say 3.
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Sautee
December 17th, 2008
2:10 pm
HOMEGROWN aka E.J.:
About this: How will AC deal with the length of Rondo?
If the recent past is any indication, he’ll watch Rondo’s length from the bench.
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HOMEGROWN aka E.J.
December 17th, 2008
3:01 pm
As Doc would say: “Heh Heh Heh”
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Sautee
December 17th, 2008
3:16 pm
Actually E.J., doc (all lower case) would say heh heh (no punctuation) but I see you’re starting to learn the ways of the Liar’s Table.
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blast
December 17th, 2008
3:22 pm
Congrats, HB and Ray. Way to go, fellas.
Go Hawks!
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Big Ray
December 17th, 2008
4:08 pm
Sautee,
Good point on the offensive rebounds. An offensive rebound is demoralizing for a defense, especially if you’ve been making that defense work hard. In some ways, it’s like making the extra pass: good things usually happen, and you can catch guys off guard. In fact, it’s not too uncommon for one or more of the five guys on the floor to slack off a bit, due to fatigue or otherwise, when the opposing team gets a fresh 24. Sounds like a good time to throw an alley-oop to Smoove, Solo, or big Al…or Mo Evans…or Marvin.
Another thing involving the offensive rebound is how to make use of it. Going back up with it is not a bad idea, particularly if you have good position down on the block. But do you go back up to score, draw the foul, or both? If you’re not a notoriously strong finisher, trying to draw the foul may be the best route. That’s not to say that you shouldn’t try to make the shot, but if you draw the foul, then you at least have a chance at two uncontested points.
On the other hand, you could pass the ball back out. I’m in favor of this as well, when the situation calls for it. But I also think there are better ways to do it than to just pass it back out, let the defense settle in, and then try to figure out how to get a shot. And too often, that’s exactly what we do. I think a better idea is to pass the ball back out (if it’s feasible in the situation…no need to force turnovers) to one of the guards, then immediately have one of the bigs (preferrably Horford) come back out to the high post and receive the ball. Then run a variety of plays through the high post. That is so much better than constantly dribbling the clock back down, only to get a contested long ball shot from one of the guards…or an uncontested, but misguided long ball shot from Smoove…
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HOMEGROWN aka E.J.
December 17th, 2008
4:26 pm
Sautee, the more time I spend on this thing, the better I will get. Pratice makes Perfect! Just one question: What is the Liar’s Table? I have learned about BWAF, now the Liar’s Table, What’s next? I am!
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Melvin
December 17th, 2008
4:29 pm
Congrats Ray and Ando. How fitting that you guys are the new Hacks, after being the backbone of Sekou Blog for so many years. Also, kind of ironic that Ando is one of the new Hacks after he blasted the old Hack into never, never land with one of his classical departure comments. Good riddens to the old Hack and glad to have you guys to replace him. I will be following along. Good Luck…
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HB Ando
December 17th, 2008
4:36 pm
Interesting side-by-side of this years’ Celtics and and Lakers, and the 95-96 Bulls, who were also 23-2 at this point in their record-breaking season. The Bulls lost game 26, on the road, to a talented, young Pacers team, led by a great shooting guard in Reggie Miller (see any similarities).
This game couldn’t be more hyped, with prime time coverage on ESPN (how long since the Hawks played to this kind of TV access).
I truly expect that the Celtics players know how important this game is to the Hawks and their fans, and that they see a value in not letting us get the kind of confidence and momentum a win would generate. They know this is still a young team, learning how to win, and believe that a loss tonight could break our will and have us question whether we are legitimately ready to play with the big boys.
The great value in that thought is that the Celtics will have no excuses if the Hawks win, and our confidence will rise to unprecedented levels, giving the organization a real opportunity for major momentum going into the new year.
There truly is a lot riding on this game, psychologically.
They have to get it done on the boards. They have to keep Rondo from having his way, as he is STILL their fourth wheel. And, watching the way guys like Powe and Allen have been playing, we need to minimize the impact of their second unit, which is really athletic and aggressive, on both ends of the court. Mo Evans and Marvin will be critical in those secondary match ups.
As I mentioned before, I’m anxious to see if Woody goes to Zaza, early and often, to match up with Perkins and rotate Horford and Smith over to KG and Pierce. Gotta go to the boards hard tonight.
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GoSPYDER
December 17th, 2008
5:37 pm
Enter your comments here
I’ll be watching BIBBY’s play in the offensive zone, and whether the CELTICS successfully iso on him on defense as they did this spring in the play-offs. Its time to rise up MR.B and show HAWKS fans what you’ve got.
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honest_abe
December 17th, 2008
6:21 pm
Enter your comments hereyo yo!! i leave for a little bit and come back to you two running a blog. how sweet is that. kudos to both of you. i do wonder if ando still has free reign to blast people like he always does. HAH!
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The Hawksta
December 17th, 2008
6:25 pm
Well…well…well, my two sons! You’ve finally made the bigtime! lol! That’s what’s up. Looking forward to hackin it up witcha. Great way to get it started on the biggest home game of the season!
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Big Ray
December 17th, 2008
7:32 pm
The Hawksta,
Hack away, my man!
After a solid, but slightly jittery start, our guys have calmed down and gotten right to business. GREAT ball movement so far, and ya’ll know you have to give Josh Smith mad props for fakin’ the three (okay, he probably WAS thinking about shooting it) and then passing to Marvin for a pretty deuce!
Then there was the marvelous Marvin fast break pass to Horford!
Big Al already looks like he’s going to try and get more rebounds than anybody else. The lid on the basket is going to come off any second now.
Notice that the Celts aren’t letting Joe even get a look at the basket….AT ALL. And we are still right on them….
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Big Ray
December 17th, 2008
7:38 pm
What a wild first quarter! Time to get a lead, though.
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Big Ray
December 17th, 2008
7:46 pm
Okay, Joe needs to just take what the defense is giving him and stop trying to force a way to find his shot. Clearly Boston wants to make us beat them with other players. We can do that. Pass the ball Joe, your opportunity will come….
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bigjohnhawksfan
December 17th, 2008
7:48 pm
Stop giving up the paint when the shot clock gets low: can’t bail them out like that.
LET’S GO HAWKS!!!
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Big Ray
December 17th, 2008
8:36 pm
Josh Smith doesn’t need to be trying to “shake and bake” anybody from 20-something feet out. All he’s going to do is lose the ball….which he did. Better to set up closer to the basket, make his move, and continue to draw fouls.
But he’s not the only one trying to force things. Joe doesn’t have any turnovers, but he’s forcing some shots. We can beat Boston without Joe scoring 30. We just have to keep running, keep playing good defense, and keep sharing the ball.
Josh needs to start fighting harder for rebounds. Big Al is already giving a herculean effort in this area, but a little more effort from Josh will result in us dominating the boards. Good thing our guards are helping in this area as well.
Mike Bibby is playing his butt off…His effort is dwarfing JJ’s. Wow.
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Big Ray
December 17th, 2008
8:47 pm
Okay, how many bogus calls can you expect to have to endure ON YOUR OWN HOME COURT??
First the OBVIOUS double dribble by KG when Josh had him all bottled up, and then the sham Pierce grimaced and groaned his way into against Marvin. That is just straight up BS. Marvin is playing great, and on that play, all he did was put a body on Pierce. All I can tell Pierce is tie a kerosene rag on both of your ankles….that way no ants crawl up your legs and try to eat your candy arse!
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Big Ray
December 17th, 2008
9:31 pm
Yes, Josh! Now THAT is the way you do things! Dunk on their heads, no more George Gervin imitations with finger rolls. Just dunk it!!!
Here we are late in the 4th quarter, and all I can hope is that our guys have enough left in the tank to finish it off. The bench hasn’t been playing much.
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Sautee
December 17th, 2008
9:50 pm
Gotta Say it. When your legs are tired it’s harder to shoot free throws.
See y’all tomorrow
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Big Ray
December 17th, 2008
9:58 pm
Celtics take another heartbreaker from us, and MAN does this hurt. This time we gave it to them.
Almost no bench play on our part, while Rivers uses his bench to wear us down in the late third and early fourth quarters. An early assessment of minutes played by both teams’ benches would be misleading. Boston had 4 bench players in double figures in minutes. We had 3. Not a big difference, right?
Wrong. It’s all about WHEN these guys played. Our bench players played mostly in the first half, very sparingly (or not at all) in the second half. Meanwhile, Doc Rivers used his bench with one starter (Ray Allen) for a good stretch, then brought in the rest of the starting lineup with about 5 or 6 minutes left to play….fresh and ready to go.
Hmmmmmm….
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Alex
December 17th, 2008
10:27 pm
I was ready for someone to punch KG in the head. I mean this guy is the biggest douchebag in the history of the NBA. We saaw his true colors last year when somebody stands up to him like ZaZa did. I mean this guy got punked at by Matt Bonner at one time!!! I think the Hawks should trade for Brian Scalabrine hahaha!!!!!!
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GreenMachine
December 17th, 2008
10:39 pm
Hawks have tons of energy and athleticism – a great young team. But maybe their whiney fans (that couldn’t even fill their home court for “the biggest game of the year”) need to cop to the fact that the Celtics are OUTSTANDING. 24-2! 16 straight wins! And two of those 24 came at the expense of the Hawks. Stop acting like a regular season game against the C’s is the be-all/end-all. Just get into the playoffs. You’d kill to have Pierce, Garnett, Allen and Rondo wearing those stupid looking Hawks jerseys. G’night, bitches. Better luck next time.
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cp
December 17th, 2008
10:44 pm
Enter your comments here
Like I said on SS’s blog, the missed free throws hurt. Not only from Joe but Marvin and Josh..The lack of an offensive scheme is also a concern… It looks like we just make up play as we go…. Evans is not a finisher. For all of his athletic ability he struggles finishing at the rim for some reason. The past few weeks he has blowed a lot of easy lay ups and dunks. This is where we miss Chill. He was a great finisher… Chills sounds like he made a mistake chasing the money… I’m guessing we use his rights to add some pieces next year…. Hard fought game that I felt we should have won.
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GoSPYDER
December 17th, 2008
10:48 pm
Enter your comments here
BIG RAY: I certainly agree in regard to your takes on two points. ONE, the celts were determined to lock down jj tonight. He just HAS to pass the ball. The commentary of Marc Jackson lauded JJ’s unselfish play and how he was passing to teammates. Yet at the end of the game, I saw a lot of dribbles from joe, some attempted drives on his part, a LOT of wide-open Bibby and Williams, and not a lot of that unselfish play that Jackson was crooning about. That fact alone may have cost the Hawks the game. Of course, he may have just been doing what he was instructed to do by Woodson. Who knows. I wasn’t in the huddle. And TWO, until the bench contributes in big games like this one, the Hawks are going to fall short against the strongest teams in the NBA. Good points.
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DecDawg
December 17th, 2008
10:51 pm
It’s not rocket science…we will always struggle in the last 3 minutes of a close game because our coach does not believe in running plays. The only play in the playbook is the high guard screen outside of the arc with Bibby and JJ. And for the record, ISO JJ is not a play. That’s just what we do.
These guys need to take a page from the Romy and Witten with the Cowboys and just make up their own plays in the hotel rooms…
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GoSPYDER
December 17th, 2008
10:55 pm
Enter your comments here
Did like Bibby’s play for the most part. His height is a distinct disadvantage, but he kept it together tonight. He even foiled one late jumper with great defense. Overall, I give him a B+. He played a good game, and should have received more passes from johnson when he was open.
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Star of the Zanarkand Abes!
December 17th, 2008
11:00 pm
And Bibby was open most of the 4th quarter… :p
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doc
December 17th, 2008
11:08 pm
Enter your comments here
gee it is great to go through this blog and see how well received the dynamic duo is … batman robin extraordinaire. also good to see it is sooo positive here that i feel good. it is so much better than that other negative blog.
i cringed when biiby seemed to get suck with pierce, though even with that pierce didnt go off. well fought game.
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MannyT
December 17th, 2008
11:10 pm
Where is the love for Marvin? He played a heck of a game tonight. He was scrapping on defense and on the boards. While Josh played fumblerooski, Marvin’s hands were much more steady than usual. Maybe he needs that UNC style big spotlight on his game to calm down.
I wish Woody had played Zaza more in the first half. He seemed to be in the right place at the right time to scrap inside. However, the egg timer went off and back to the bench–no regard for his positive impact on the game.
As for Joe and passing out of the double team, it seems that the most successful teams have the defense spread out and the 2nd pass after the double is the one that gets the open shot. We don’t seem to move the ball well with that 2nd pass to get an open look. Probably something to do with our offensive scheme or is it the offensiveness of our scheme…hmmm
Oh well, let’s take it out on Golden State on Friday.
BWAF
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Star of the Zanarkand Abes!
December 17th, 2008
11:13 pm
Hey, blogmasters! Tell AJC to code this comment box so the “Enter comments here” text disappears when you click in this box. I’m just sayin’
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HB Ando
December 17th, 2008
11:21 pm
Spyder, bench has got to play to contribute. There has been an ongoing discussion, amongst long-standing blog members, about Woody’s unwillingness to use his bench. Early in the season, he seemed to have evolved. But in the last few games, he’s reverted to his old ways. Tonight, the starters played 199 of a possible 240 minutes, with an 8-man rotation. These numbers are even more drastic than Saturday’s win against the Cavs, when the bench combined for 53 minutes.
While you can’t argue with the win against the Cavs, or the near-win, against the Celtics, the fact that Woody has reverted to overplaying his starters just revisits the old concerns about him risking the teams’ playoff potential for immediate gratification. The fact that the Hawks had a 6-9 run, while Josh was out/shaking off the rust, underscores just how quickly things could turn south if a key member of the team had a serious injury.
The seemingly accurate observation that the Hawks have to lean on the high guard screen is less about a lack of creativity, and more a concession that we still don’t have a legitimate low-post scorer. The reason that flaw seems to be exposed late in games is that ALL NBA games grind down to half-court sets, when the outcome is close, or during the playoffs.
As far as Bibby needing more passes when open, I’m not seeing him open that much. Clearly his game is now built on catch-and-shoot. But JJ has never been selfish, and Bibby isn’t that quick. And the box score suggests that, once again, young Rondo got the best of the PG match up.
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HB Ando
December 17th, 2008
11:23 pm
Star, no doubt. I’ll add that to the list of kinks that need working out…….
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Star of the Zanarkand Abes!
December 17th, 2008
11:24 pm
**Ando** Thanks, and kudos for getting us a blog by fans, for fans!
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one66soul
December 17th, 2008
11:37 pm
Free Throws Killed Us!
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MannyT
December 18th, 2008
12:02 am
Why do I suspect that Woody will use the easy double talk to justify his lack of bench play.
If we are winning, it is important to keep a good thing going. He’ll monitor the starters minutes (but he won’t decrease them.)
If we are losing, it is important to have the best 5 on the court. No time for on the job training. That’s why we have practice.
He’ll apologize at the end of the season about not using AC & Solo enough.
New year, more success, but similar patterns that make me cynical.
BWAF
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HB Ando
December 18th, 2008
12:21 am
Manny, you know that I struggle to identify with cynicism, but I feel you. Ray hit it on the head, regarding the Hawks playing starters against the Celtic bench, early in the fourth quarter. We were on the phone, and it was so obvious that the implications of that match up would result in Boston playing well-rested starters, against our tiring starters, at the end of the game.
But that point seems like a micro-analysis. I posted about KG wandering his way to a 2-10 night, mid way through the 4th quarter, over on SS’s blog. And then, seemingly out of nowhere, there’s the KG that folks think of, when discussing the best players in the NBA. Next thing you know, he’s closing with a 5 for 5 FG performance.
As I’m typing, Walton is dogging our offensive approach, and highlighting how Rondo is the superior PG, over Bibby. OK, Sekou, I know you don’t like Walton. Who does? But the numbers, and a thorough observation of the whole game, actually support his points…..
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MannyT
December 18th, 2008
12:44 am
I did not see/hear Walton and I am not trying to put Bibby above Rondo, but they play very different roles for their teams. Bibby is more like our version of Ray Allen. Hit the open jumpers and give us a good punch on offense. We don’t expect much defense from him.
Rondo needs to play strong D for the Celtics. He is a younger version of what Claxton was supposed to be in Atlanta. Provide on-ball pressure and disrupt the offense without letting the other PG break you down and attack the lane.
As for our bench, the proper time to give them a chance was during the first 23 games when we had 8 back to backs (16 games). If Mario only gets 5 minutes, do I worry about him fouling out…probably not. If AC makes a mistake or two in his 10-15 minutes will that cost us the game? Maybe, but it’s more likely that one of the rested starters will make up for it because of 32 very active minutes instead of 32 good minutes and 10 energy conserving minutes on the court.
The only thing more frustrating than Woody is the radio broadcast joke on 790. Sometimes you hear some games unless there is a GaTech game, or there are too many stars in the sky. I was in the parking lot just before the game started and I laughed when they said they were cutting over to the Tech game, but you could hear the Hawks on NBA.COM I guess I need to get my ride upgraded with a high speed internet satellite connection ;-0
Next season maybe I’ll team up with Bill Nye, the science guy, to make a bid for the radio rights. Off to Costco for a stack of batteries! http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/radio6.htm
BWAF
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Brian
December 18th, 2008
12:57 am
Typical of the Hawks. Can’t trust them to do anything that meaningful. You surely can’t trust JJ when the game is on the line. He proved that.
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anthony berry
December 18th, 2008
1:36 am
The Hawks will never go anywhere until they get a BIG MAN, and Josh stop shooting all those juup shot and go to the Hole,and tell Joe stop dribbling so much and shot the Ball.
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BA
December 18th, 2008
2:49 am
Big Ray, and MY boy HB Ando- ya’ll know I’ve GOT to come through here late night! Before I get to this game, (I’d be remiss if I didn’t point this out) yeah, you’re fans. But this is no accident- you’re also a couple of damn good writers (with equally distinctive styles). Ray, that intro was a gem. I’m proud to see this happen. Now, the brass tax-
First of all, if the continuation rule applied to ALL of the teams in the NBA, we win this by four. There’s no excuse for the kind of (no) calls these refs were making in the second and third quarters.
The ESPN broadcast was strong. Liked the play-by-play (dude was working that new-shcool Tirico style) and the color guy- much higher quality than your typical ESPN broadcast.
Boston defended us the only way they know how- lock down Johnson and make the likes of Smith, Bibby and Williams beat you. The Hawks defended Boston the only way THEY know how- let Rhondo have whatever he wants, because you can’t leave the big three. It worked for both teams- hey, you hold any NBA team under 90 points, you’ve done your job.
Like HB said, it’s not a statement. It’s a measuring stick. We measure up pretty well with this team- the “team to beat” in the East (sorry, Bronny). They’re still on the right track- tell the truth ya’ll- have you EVER seen ANY Hawks team play defense like this? ‘Nique and them didn’t play this kind of D. The Jason Terry crowd? Please.
Oh, and sorry you’re having such a rough time over there in Greece, Chills. Here’s a couple grand- you can use the bills to sop up those tears. There’s just not enough room for those big fish when they wind up in a Euro pond…
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Sautee
December 18th, 2008
8:20 am
Telling comment from Rondo:”If those guys played that hard every night they’d be one of the best teams in the league.”
We definitely DO play to our opposition. Yet another hurdle for this team. Maybe last night taught them something, we’ll see.
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Don!
December 18th, 2008
11:15 am
Bleh, the Hawks outplayed the Celts last night — but the Celts out executed us down the stretch. Little things like the right outlet, and positioning under the boards. Of course, the kicker was JJ’s missed free throw, and I know he feels bad about it — but it shouldn’t have come down to just that.
Anyway, we can’t afford a hangover. We still need to make the most of this home stand because we have another rough patch in the schedule come January. I think the team’s doing better than expected — but not as well as they could — so as long as we improve heading towards the end of the season … I’m really looking forward to playing games in March for playoff positioning instead of just to get in.
As far as the new blog goes — we need to get a solid link going on the main sports page alongside the Falcons’, Braves’ and Thrashers’ fan blogs. I don’t know what the hold up on that is.
Hopefully everyone has a safe and happy holiday season — all the best to you all from me and my family up in South Jersey, i.e. the evil suburbs of Philly. And don’t watch the replay on Brand’s shoulder from last night — it’s almost as bad as Theisman in its own way. Ouch …
Later,
Don!
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fudd21
December 18th, 2008
1:17 pm
Has everyone left Sekou’s blog and come over here. I just went and read the blog and I’m like where are all the normal posters. I think doc and IMUS were the only posters I was familiar with. But the really bad thing was every other post I’m like did you even watch the game. WTF are you talking about. Big time quality drop-off. Oh well
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Don!
December 18th, 2008
2:56 pm
Maybe we’ll get Sekou to come over here instead!
Later,
Don!
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Sautee
December 18th, 2008
8:05 pm
Testing, testing, 1,2,3. Is this thing on?
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Big Ray
December 18th, 2008
8:30 pm
Good points, all.
BA,
Thanks for the kudos, my man. Glad you came over, and I’m looking forward to more of your contributions. They truly enrich a blog.
Some of the ref calls aggravated the crap out of me. Particularly the botched KG-double dribble, and the Pierce-flop/travel missed calls. And you’re right about how we match up to these guys. Tell me something. After Josh threw down that thunderous dunk, he had the look of “Damn, that felt good!” So….what does it take for him to do that no less than 5 or 6 times a game? I realize somebody said “Hey dude, you don’t want to be known as just a dunker.” But…it works just fine for guys like Amare Stoudamire and Dwight Howard…just fine indeed.
As far as Chills goes, I think he’s discovering an age old adage: “Life is a series of trade-offs.”
Sautee,
Excellent point. Rondo sees us for what we are: a team that plays to it’s perceived competition all too often.
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Big Ray
December 18th, 2008
11:00 pm
New blog up, guys. Hack away….
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HB Ando
December 18th, 2008
11:08 pm
BA, MY boy, in the house. Now that’s what I’m talking about.
Talkin’ Hawks!!!!
This is going to be fun……….
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HB Ando
December 18th, 2008
11:30 pm
Partner, you hit the nail on the head.
Sekou Smith titled a recent post, “Trap Game?”
So, to build off of a theme, should Friday’s Warriors tilt be called, “Let-down game?”
Because the history of sports is littered with teams who get fixated on “The Big Game”, and subsequently fall flat in the game before, or after, said game. The Warriors represent the junior version of the Suns, circa ‘04-’07; a team that can beat anyone on any given night, but who aren’t really a threat from a playoff series contention standpoint. At this stage, their not even as good as D’Antoni’s Knicks, in this category.
But they are a “any given night” kind of team, requiring discipline and focus. And if the Hawks show up either stuck on Wednesday’s game, or over-confident from yet another near-miss, with the World Champions, then an unexpected, and unacceptable (for a team that is now positioned for serious, Eastern Conference respect), outcome is not out of the realm of consideration.
As an aside, tomorrow night is the Hawks’ town hall meeting, set up for season ticket holders. The Hacks will have representation at that forum, and are open for requested questions of the organization (with no realistic expectation that the Hacks will get even one, if not many, questions answered).
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Don!
December 18th, 2008
11:47 pm
Link to the new blog? I’m not seeing one.
Thanks,
Don
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MannyT
December 19th, 2008
12:23 am
This link will get you to the “Front Page” of the Hawks Hacks.
http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-hawks-blog/
From there it is easy to find the most recent blog.
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MannyT
December 19th, 2008
12:36 am
My question for the ASG. What’s the deal with the (lack of) radio coverage? Especially when Tech has a game. They used to move it over to FM. Now they just blow it off as if the Hawks don’t exist.
I do wonder what Sund’s biggest surprise is since the start of the season. I’m sure there’s one that he won’t say publicly, but I’ll take the other one.
Isn’t that suspended guy named Moped Ellis
As for the Warriors game…the Hawks will get sucked in for awhile. It gives them an excuse to run and we know the players like to run. They should settle down at some point and make this a solid bounce back from Wednesday.
If Woody really wants to slow this game down, he plays Zaza more and forces the GSW to play post defense. If the worst case reaction comes out, Woody goes small to match up with their small line up. We might see Joe at the 4. It can work, but it’s not playing to OUR strengths.
BWAF
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BA
December 19th, 2008
3:20 am
I’m with Manny T- if ya’ll get a word in edgewise, ask about the inconsistent t.v./radio coverage. Tell ‘em how embarrased me and the bwaf inventor are about the whole thing.
I hope they heard what Rhondo said, “If they played this hard every night…” Am I crazy, or didn’t we run Golden State out of the building LAST year? Should be fun to watch.
Why DOESN’T Smith dunk more? A lot more? And here’s another question I have-
Who are they going to bring in that can work with Smith and Williams (and really Horford as well) on their post moves? Look, they bring in a shooting coach, next thing you know, we’re at the top of the league in threes. This is an extremly talented (and extremly young) frontcourt- and all three of them could stand to improve down there offensively.
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KC Cristian
December 19th, 2008
8:32 am
Enter your comments here
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KC Cristian
December 19th, 2008
8:34 am
Put it like this: IF the Hawks could pry assistant coach Phil Johnson away from the Utah Jazz combined with Head Coach Mike Woodson’s defensive strategies, the Hawks would win the NBA championship at least two years in a row (if not three). That’s how close they are; they’re at the cusp of greatness. A little fine tuning…and it’s on!
For now, the C’s will reign because they have it together.
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doc
December 19th, 2008
9:22 am
Enter your comments here
“And we have to play to win, not to lose.” a quote from bibby.
i guess that about sums up what we saw and what the team has to work on. it is still about growth. the team was strung tight against the C’s as there efforts on the long shots, the free throws and close in were all of their marks. it was a team that knew each possession was critical but only the whole team choked in the full extent of the game in that no player stood up and put the team on their shoulders. it wasnt a lack of trying and that is to their credit. in the end the other guys showed their cool with critical stops and critical scores. we didnt do it at either end.
tonight we have to adjust to knowing that there will be more possessions but each as critical. unfortunately if the team loses its focus or comes up cold, both recent tendencies then they could get buried fast.
the key to shaking it off is to get their strut back, to sink shots at the beginning and play defense to let the warriors know they are the pretenders in the game not the other way around.
i also commend you guys for your remarks, on point as usual. also look forward to spending some time with ando as he does his research tonight from the game tonight. i will get a preview maybe f his remarks to lend to you in a wrap up segment.
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Astro Joe
December 19th, 2008
9:57 am
Please ask about the lack of utilization of the NBDL for guys like Othella Hunter now (and Solo in the past). And of course, the Speedy question… as there does not appear to be a down-side to submitting retirement papers due to injuries.
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MannyT
December 19th, 2008
11:03 am
Astro…slow your roll on the retirement thing. First, Speedy would have to agree. If he thinks he can come back, why retire unless there is a buyout in the wings. (As if the ASG wants to spend more money in this economy.)
Also remember the fear that Portland has right now. If Darius Miles plays in 10 games this year, they lose all of the cap relief they got from his “retirement.” You really don’t want to be cap-jammed in the summer of 2010 when JJ is a free agent, you have to figure out if you are extending Al, and all the big name free agents are out there. (Not saying we will get one of the big names, but we should be able to get someone to help.)
BWAF
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HB Ando
December 19th, 2008
4:41 pm
Time to go hear what Mr. Sund, and the attending fans, have to say at the “Town Hall” meeting. Oh, and watch what looks to be a major offensive exhibition. Interesting to see if the Hawks try and slow the pace down, or just pin their ears back and put it into overdrive. Not sure if that’s the best way to beat the Warriors, but it would be a lot of fun to watch……
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Big Ray
December 19th, 2008
8:52 pm
Okay, this is not good. We’ve gotten away from playing the harassing, turnover-inducing defense, and allowed Wright, Belinelli, and Azubuike to get into somewhat of a groove…and lost the lead at the same time.
Josh Smith looks totally out of it. He’s not doing what he normally does on defense. He should have about 5 blocks already. Marvin, on the other hand, is looking great on offense, even finishing with contact on one fast-break play. Must be the Chad Johnson haircut…or bad imitation thereof.
Now they’re beating us on the boards, and it’s starting to show. Gotta get back to Hawks basketball.
Looks like Phillips isn’t too packed tonight.
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LispOpido
December 19th, 2008
8:57 pm
Thanks the author!
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Big Ray
December 19th, 2008
9:14 pm
New blog is up, dude….it’s titled “Recovery”
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Big Ray
December 19th, 2008
9:18 pm
Well, we finally tied it, but we’re making it look like this is a competition. The problem is that it shouldn’t be. One of the teams is scrappy on both offense AND defense. The other is jacking up shots and being lax on defense. We’re the second team. Time to get it in gear.
Speaking of which, why does Flip Murray get the second span of playing time while Acie gets snubbed? Acie comes in for 7 minutes or so, produces a quick 5 assists, then goes back out. Flip comes in and turns it over 3 times, but he gets the second call. Riiiiiight…
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Big Ray
December 19th, 2008
9:23 pm
Heh! I like the new Josh Smith move: fake the jumper (you know, the one most teams are praying he shoots), then pass it to the open teammate for an easy, uncontested shot. Tell you what, he may not be scaring the defense by faking the shot, but he is freezing it….they start looking for the rebound, and STOP playing defense. It works…..for now at least.
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Big Ray
December 19th, 2008
9:51 pm
Nice “recovery” by the Hawks after letting Golden State play their game for a while.
Woodson did some out of character things tonight as far as the bench was concerned. Can’t complain, though. I was surprised to see Bibby play so little in the second half. Hmmmm. Well, like I said, can’t complain.
Josh Smith is not a dumb player, I don’t care what ANYBODY says. No way do you follow 5 turnovers with 7 assists like that. Dude changed part of the game with his passing ALONE. Still, you have to wonder what is wrong with him. He’s not all over the place like he used to be. I don’t think it’s lack of effort. I think it’s lack of confidence that his physicality is back on-line. Which means that it might NOT be….
Good game by the Hawks. Nice win.
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doc
December 19th, 2008
11:47 pm
ankle injuries are like that. six weeks minimum to heal 12 to 16 weeks to get back to normal.
good points ray, fianlly josh ahs em where he wants them having to respect his outside shot to make plays off it. eh yeah right that’s the ticket.
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MannyT
December 19th, 2008
11:51 pm
It almost seems like there has been a Freaky Friday swap between Josh and VeintiQuatro.
Josh’s ball handling looks more uncertain as he gets close to the basket. Marvin is going for his. Tapping out offensive rebounds, dunking on folks…now all he needs are some touchdown celebrations and a hair/barber sponsor. Marvin’s note to self–don’t ask Shelden Williams.
Glad that the Hawks pulled it out. Early in the game it looked like the bench was very appreciative of their holiday gift from Woody (i.e. playing time.)
BWAF
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HB Ando
December 20th, 2008
12:33 am
Well, I wondered about a “let down” game, and saw just that in the first half. And not just the team, but the fans as well. Seemed to be a big hangover from the major event that was the Celtics game on Wednesday. Fortunately, the Hawks shook it off in the fourth quarter and took care of business.
Given that the Warriors were without Jackson and Maggette, not to mention Ellis, there really isn’t a plausible explanation for them to have lost. Still not sure why Nellie wasn’t playing Anthony Randolph, either.
But a win is a win.
With regards to the “town hall” meeting, it was something of a disappointment. We got 45 minutes of Bob Rathbun, deferring really good questions to Rick Sund, who finally showed up after “getting stuck in an elevator”, to take about 5 questions.
But the evening was compelling, as Manny T, doc, Jhan and Ando all got to challenge each other on a range of points regarding the Hawks.
The discussions, before, during and after, were actually more fun than the game.
Also got in a post-game chat with Sautee.
Notable was Marvin’s performance, which continued a developing theme that he’s at his best in Western Conference-style games, and may draw a better offer, from a team on the Left Coast, when his restricted free agency comes to market this summer. He just seems more comfortable, and confident, when the game is played at a quicker pace.
Sund was asked about Bibby’s near-term future here, and seemed to indicate that unless an offer was received, that would make the team better this year, he wasn’t likely to be moved, based on financial issues. I guess we’ll know for sure when the trade deadline is passed. They’re definitely better with him on the floor. But I can’t shake my opinion that his contract is the difference between profitability and 7-figure loss this year. And I still don’t believe he’ll be here at the end of the season.
But I’ve been wrong before, as a couple of you never tire of highlighting.
Thanks to both doc and Jhan, who both offered me a seat tonight……
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Don!
December 20th, 2008
12:35 am
Do we play to the level of our competition, or what?
Against the Celts we looked like one of the best five teams in the NBA for 58 minutes or so. Tonight, I thought we were the Knicks for three quarters. I was expecting to see Starbury courtside talking about his ‘Money for Nothing’ lifestyle.
We’re playing a 7-19 team, without two of its best players … at home … and we’re down in the 4th quarter? Amazing. Thank goodness both teams remembered who they were and where they were at in the last 10 minutes or so.
Whew.
Anyway, the way the Hawks can play in spurts this year both scares and excites me. We can really, honestly play with anyone — both the good teams and the bad teams. I sincerely hope we can get a bit more mentally tough as the season goes along so we can win games at the end — instead of losing them to good teams like the Celts, and also just put teams like the Warriors out of their misery early instead of letting them stick around all night.
Later,
Don!
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cp
December 20th, 2008
12:58 am
Enter your comments here
Ando according to the Warriors blog, Nellie told Randolph to tell his agent to look for a trade because it would not work out in Golden State. I like the kids game though. He needs some weight but he clearly has a lot of skills.
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HB Ando
December 20th, 2008
1:01 am
Damn, CP, that’s bizarre. Just a couple of games ago Randolph had 15 and 10. What’s the whole story? If they want to dump a kid that talented, I’m sure just about every team in the league would be interested in picking him up cheap…..
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hawks fan 32
December 20th, 2008
1:04 am
Great Blog guys. I read this blog and Seku’s blogs just because I’m a huge basketball fan. I like the insight you guys put into not only the hawks, but the upcoming matchups. I hope you keep this up. Good win tonight, but another “where do we stand” game on Sunday (I don’t want to say big game because it’s way too early for that). I hope you guys keep this up. I’m looking forward to it.
P.S. This Boston game is still on my mind. I would love to see all these Boston fans in 2 years when KG, Allen, and Pierce are broken up and they are back where they deserve to be: middle of the pack at best. LET’S GO HAWKS!
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cp
December 20th, 2008
2:16 am
Enter your comments here
From reading the Warriors blog the fans feel that Nellie is doing things to spite Mullin. It’s a big mess over there. A lot of their younger players are or were riding the bench even when they were short handed. If you ever have time go to realgm.com and check the Warriors blog. They seriously want Nellie out of there. When given minutes Randolph seems to play well but he doesn’t get consistent minutes. Wright doesn’t get them either. They also complain about how he plays a lot of 4 guard rotations and leave the bigs on the bench for no reason.
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Big Ray
December 20th, 2008
9:01 am
One thing I kind of hinted at in the intro to THIS blog was the second thing Nelson is most known for: his doghouse. He’s known first and foremost as a master of small ball. But a none-too-distant second is the massive doghouse he keeps.
This guys has had as much creative control as he can stand for YEARS. And if he doesn’t like you for some reason, or doesn’t want you to play: you’re just not. As I said in the intro, only Turiaf and Biedrins are constant contributors, the rest of the low post guys don’t know if they’re in a feast or famine.
Nellie’s brand of basketball has won a lot of games over the years, but can you recall a time that it was good enough to get past the second round of the playoffs? His best chances were with that Dallas squad a few years back. Didn’t make it then, and has only managed a very exciting first round knockout against his former team a couple years back, before exiting in the second round.
The Warriors may be young, but they have loads of talent. I know times are rough due to the loss of Davis, Ellis, and more recently Maggette and Jackson. But Sam Mitchell can’t keep O’Neal on the floor. Eddie Jordan never has Arenas. And they’re both out of a job. Nellie’s teams have never played much defense. His offense is no more potent than D’Antoni’s. If he’s playing games in Golden State, Chris Mullin better either come to an understanding with him or bite the bullet and let him go.
Here’s the thing I’ve noticed about Nellie over the years: If he doesn’t get his way, he makes it hell for anybody around. He plays who he wants to play, and that’s all there is to it. He’s never been to the NBA finals, not even with that 50+ win Dallas squad for several years in a row. So do you place all the blame on the injuries (Ellis, Maggette, Jackson)? Nellie was also known (with each team he coached) for having rifts with key players. I’m not saying he’s a bad coach. But a guy who does things like this when the situation is already sour….well, you have to wonder is the future with him getting brighter or dimmer?
Either way, he makes Woody’s doghouse look like club med.
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doc
December 20th, 2008
10:18 am
great line there ray buddy about the nellie club med that includes so many super stars you could even call it the taj mahal that is the dog house of all dog houses for coaches. nellie has no contact with players and actually ignores them during games. gosh he lets them play though, up and down man.
fun game last night getting to see some of my compadres and to sit next to the ando form of andro last night at the sund thing and the second half. he is a blast as he is always full of info and ready to disarm any comment you make. sometimes it is best just to say uh huh, other times when there is extra energy to exert to continue the repartee that can get pretty outrageous on both ends. somehow it always sems t getto the point of how big are yours and are you willing to bet on it. guess that isnt news to you guys that are regular readers though. heh heh . really enjoy his comments though, live and here. jhan’s seats are unbelievable but i continue to like my poor man version of box seats where i landed. found a buddy up there to talk bball with, all is good.
BTW props to the support staff that are involved in purchasing and supporting HAWKS season ticket holders, they really do a fine job. folks you really ned to look into the packages that they have and get committed to be regular hawks fans at the phillips. i think you will be really surprised at the over all experience.
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MannyT
December 20th, 2008
11:21 am
Ray,
cp is correct. Chris Mullin is the figurehead with the shiv in his back. Nellie’s palace coup was done about 2 months ago when he received his contract extension, not from Mullin, but the owner.
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2008/10/25/don-nelson-stephen-jackson-negotiating-extensions-behind-chris/
Is there a part of Nellie’s bench that has EXILE ISLAND painted on it
doc
Those folks on the support staff do work hard to make things happen. Even last night I was surprised to see my rep come to my seat to work out a mix up we had earlier in the week. Glad I was there.
It also helps to have good fans in the place instead of those carpetbaggers that showed up on Wednesday with the green gear they purchased earlier this year.
BWAF
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jhan
December 20th, 2008
12:27 pm
Good to see everybody at the game. I too was disappointed in the town hall meeting. Lot’s of good questions didn’t get asked/answered due to the “elevator” malfunction. Maybe next time.
Acie finally got some burn last night. Played great for 7 minutes then back to the bench. Nobody on GS could stay in front of Acie. Still don’t understand why he gets no significant minutes.
Go Hawks!
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Big Ray
December 20th, 2008
10:05 pm
Some people say Acie has to force the issue. Yeah, and end up like Salim…
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MannyT
December 20th, 2008
10:26 pm
He might be able to force the issue in practice, but it’s the coaches that make up those teams as well. Law needs to either show that he can play well with Flip (which isn’t likely unless they use 2 basketballs) or play against Flip in practice to show that he can get some more playing time.
However, there is a wild card that I do not understand. After he showed out in Cleveland last month, he was rewarded with a Javaris Crittenton i.e. DNP-CD
At least he doesn’t get put on the inactive list.
BWAF
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MannyT
December 20th, 2008
11:32 pm
Interesting comparison of a team on the rise versus a team struggling not to be in free fall.
The Hawks holiday deal can get you into the Zoo and Aquarium.
http://www.nba.com/hawks/tickets/Home_for_the_Holidays.html
The Wizards holiday deal can get you a Tough Juice Jersey and 6 tickets in the club level for 199.
http://www.nba.com/wizards/intro_081113.html
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HB Ando
December 21st, 2008
2:02 pm
Quick quip on the Piston’s tip: We’re improved and they are in either transition, or a state of flux. It’s at our house, so this should play to a W for the home team. Buuuttt, this is still the Pistons, crafty and savvy veteran team.
With all this talk, this past week, about “traps”, “statements” and “measuring sticks”, this is a good old-fashioned challenge. Time to play. Hope the kids are up to the challenge….
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Big Ray
December 21st, 2008
2:45 pm
Good Lord. Bibby is on fire. Okay, keep him in, keep him in….
And where did THIS Marvin come from? I really like THIS Marvin!
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cp
December 21st, 2008
2:56 pm
Enter your comments here
Marvin finishes at the basket a whole lot better. Bibby is knocking down shots…. Flip continues to turn the ball over and Evans cant buy a basket.
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Big Ray
December 21st, 2008
3:24 pm
I hear ya CP. Marvin seems to have this “change over night” ability. One day we wake up after a tumultous summer and he’s suddenly a 3-point shooter. A week ago, Marvin couldn’t hit a layup if he was in traffic. Now he can’t be stopped….
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Big Ray
December 21st, 2008
4:03 pm
Great effort on the glass today by Horford and Williams.
Marvin has also been great about getting to loose balls and tapping out rebounds that he can’t grab. He’s looking better than he ever has, on defense as well. I hope we continue to see this type of effort from him.
While Marvin’s stepped up effort has truly been a blessing with Smith seeming to be so earth-bound, I don’t want it go away when Smith gets his legs back all the way. I want to see Marvin doing these things consistently, every time he hits the floor. It will only make this team that much more dangerous and difficult to defend, especially in those tougher games (i.e. against Cleveland, Boston, etc).
With today’s performance, Marvin has a chance to prove that he doesn’t just do well against western conference foes, which would be a good thing. Then again, proof would have to come in the form of several performances like this one (and the one against Golden State) before we could latch onto that theory.
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HB Ando
December 21st, 2008
4:51 pm
Now if Kirk came over HERE and said that 6-7 folks made up 90% of the blog, he’d have had a point (for the first time).
Be nice when the AJC gets us set up next to the other fan blogs.
But we’re here, and talkin’ Hawks!
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MannyT
December 21st, 2008
7:42 pm
Do we get extra blog credit for knowing how to get here without a link on the front of the sports page
It rarely snows in Louisiana–Big Bay hurt in car accident in snowy Boston.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3785843
Was it odd that AC Law 3rd got more time in Philips Arena than his son? According to Ryan Cameron, they put him on kiss cam.
Woody gave out his Christmas gifts during the Warriors game where even RandMo got to play. No more bench love.
This chart came from another blog via TrueHoop. I think you guys can have fun with it at some point.
http://flickr.com/photos/23744547@N02/3114942913/
Hey–we are 1/3 of a 50 win team. It will be really exciting if we get to be 3/3 of a 50 win team.
BWAF
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Big Ray
December 21st, 2008
8:09 pm
LOL! True that. But he hasn’t shown up yet (that we know of). I’m irrepairably disappointed…
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chuckw/deadjournalist
December 21st, 2008
9:29 pm
I’ve miss the last two games, although I did try to listen to the end of the Golden State game on the radio. I was on PIB and couldn’t pick up the game clearly. That’s just a shame.
I watching the box scores, I keep seeing a site that concerns be going into the new year: the minutes that Joe Johnson is logging game-in and game-out. Every game sees him playing around 41 minutes a game.
No complaints considering the Hawks have a real show of winning 20 games before ‘09, but it’s December and the bench is three people deep most nights. It sure would be nice to have another solid bench player.
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MannyT
December 21st, 2008
11:47 pm
chuckw
If the string won’t reach from Philips to where you are, no radio reception after dark. However, I do recall Bob Rathburn mentioning at the Town Hall meeting, that folks with satellite radio can get the games.
Personally, I don’t spend enough time in the car to consider paying for radio service.
You need Woody to define SOLID BENCH PLAYER otherwise, it’s just a waste of a trade to get someone. I think AC & Solo could be added to the rotation, but it doesn’t look likely.
BWAF
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al
December 22nd, 2008
4:31 am
where is speedy claxston
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Big Ray
December 22nd, 2008
9:42 am
On the bench, in a good suit.
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Big Ray
December 22nd, 2008
9:49 am
We watched the Celts win it all last year with a 9/10 man rotation. I realize that their bench was stronger than anybody else’s, but surely we can manage an 9/10 rotation. Solo and Acie are worthwhile contributors, in my opinion. Solo has proven it every time he’s gotten minutes this season. And he was getting good minutes early. I don’t know why Woody has truncated his playing time the way he has. Methinks that there is the possibility of a discipline issue lurking, but one never knows.
I hate to think the worst of Woodson in this area, but he doesn’t always leave much room for you to think the best (despite the record). And as CHUCK W says, it’s not a good thing to see JJ piling up 41 minute games, particularly this early in the season. As it is, this “bench issue” will likely be an upcoming blog subject.
It would be nice if we were on the main page where the old Hawks Hack was. Kinda tough working in the underwater cave here…
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MannyT
December 22nd, 2008
10:58 am
Super heroes usually like their privacy!
Maybe you should tag your posts on Sekou’s blog with a link to the front of this site. (i.e. stop before you get to the 2008 part as in http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-hawks-blog
It will be good even when you start a new subject. just code it as below…it won’t work on this system, but it will work on the other one.
[big ray](http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-hawks-blog)
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Sautee
December 22nd, 2008
11:34 am
Oh, is THAT what that echo is?
Ray and Ando, please give me your opinions on this:
It’s all too obvious that we lack an inside game. But do you think it’s a lack of ability on the part of Horford and Smith, or is it a design of Woody’s “offensive” (and boy do I mean offensive) scheme?
Another poster on Sekou’s blog mentioned the lack of offensive rebounds between them and wondered about being told “get back, get back” every time down the court.
Are we seriously under-utilizing our two most athletic big men?
Couldn’t Josh, with the right coaching, develop into a Sean Elliott type point forward, creating for his teammates?
Couldn’t Horford be fed on hard cuts to the basket, and at he VERY least, create fouls on the opposing bigs?
And both of these guys have to be near the top of the league in assists for their positions. So what could we do to use these skills?
I’m REALLY tired of Joe doing a Tyronn Lue impression and pounding the ball for 15-18 seconds and either giving it up with 2 seconds on the clock, or shooting agains a double team. We need some inside out.
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MannyT
December 22nd, 2008
12:17 pm
Sautee, when Joe posts up inside or uses that teardrop shot in the lane, that is the inside ISO Joe. When he dribbles around the 3 point line and gets a pick from Bibby that is outside ISO Joe.
What more could you ask for
As long as we are winning, I doubt Woody will step up to more development of the offense or the bench. It’s kinda like not wanting to change things when you are on the hottest streak of your life.
BWAF
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JJ
December 22nd, 2008
4:24 pm
ents here When Joe realize that the Hawks are more than him and other guys on the TEAM are capable of scoring and carrying this team we will really be someone too fear. When Bibby is hot,get him the ball and get out of the way.Joe and too a larger degree Woody are the reason we struggle on offense.Joe don’t have to prove to anybody that he’s a star and Woody needs to stop feeding him with this stuff.Joe has more players around him that can ball ,so he should let them.
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Big Ray
December 22nd, 2008
6:11 pm
Sautee,
Some people think we lack an inside game because we have insufficient size. While that is a valid argument, we DO in fact, have guys who can score inside with regularity.
I agree that it is more about scheme than most things. On the one hand, I wouldn’t want Horford to have to go up in the paint all the time against guys who are 3-6 inches taller and 30-50 pounds heavier. On the other hand, Horford is a lot faster than we give him credit for. Watching him drive the ball a couple of times reveals this. A hard cut to the basket makes ANY of our three frontcourt starters difficult to guard. Horford, Smith, and Williams are ALL capable of finishing (Marvin being the latest to join the party…and hopefully he’s staying) on plays like that.
I think one of the keys to making this work is having a second player cut to the paint as well. That gives the first cutter a chance to pass the ball off if/when he draws the defense. And all three of our guys can pass, so it works. In fact, we’ve seen plays like this is spurts, in several games. We’ve seen Marvin flash to the basket, receive the ball from a guard (or Smith or Horford), then pass to whichever guy happend to also flash to the basket, and it’s an easy score.
As you say, design is the key word. I don’t believe those plays are designed, or we’d see them more. What we do see is plays that revolve around JJ or Bibby. And they tend to be ISO plays, or plays that involve the screen-and-roll (the only problem being, after the screen is completed, the roller is forgotten). Bibby is actually executing the screen-and-roll better than JJ is. Much better, in fact. JJ is also having some difficulty in successfully shedding or beating the double team. Part of it is because other guys are not getting themselves open so that he can pass out of the double. But gee, I wonder why that is? Because “ISO” usually means “you ain’t gettin’ the ball back.” However, they must move without the ball to give JJ options. Other times, JJ simply holds onto the ball too long, dribbling precious seconds off the clock before trying a heavily contested long jumper, or flinging a pass to a guy who shouldn’t be taking quick, long jumpshots…like Smith.
No, our offense is heavily guard and perimeter oriented. Good teams will know how to shut this down and make us beat them elsewhere. So we definitely need to employ an offensive scheme that goes through the post some kind of way and generates a lot of points in the paint. With that will come the foul calls and free throws. That, and it will make our post players that much more effective, putting them in a situation where they are most likely to succeed. We’ll see what ol’ Woody does with this. One-trick ponies don’t make it through many races…
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Don!
December 22nd, 2008
8:42 pm
I don’t know about the long-term prospects of Woddy’s rotation. I think the style we’re playing is better suited to a 10-11 man rotation, where we can make up in our lack of size in the front court with aggressiveness and energy.
However, Woody seems to be more set on a really tight 8-9 man rotation. Fortunately, we’re young enough to get away with it for now, but even one injury really hurts us. When Josh was out for the month, we were lucky to tread water. Not that JSmooth isn’t THAT good, but just as much of the problem was exposed in our rotation.
A lot of the scribes have called our bench the worst in the NBA. I don’t agree, and as many of you have already posted — Zaza, Solo, Acie, Murray and Evans are solid. Where we fall short is really after that — and I think that’s more a coaches’ decision than anything else. Except Speedy. I think Speedy may have suffered another horrendous toenail injury today getting out of the whirlpool.
Mario deserves more run, Randolph has potential, and we’re never going to find out if Othello Hunter is player — either here or in the NBADL — if he never leaves the bench. I forget who we have after those guys, but that’s because I haven’t seen any of them since … Las Vegas?
Personally, I really think we can get our rotation to a more solid 10-12 with the talent we already have, and over the course of an 82-game season — it can make a big difference. Five minutes here and eight minutes there might not sound like much, but tired players get hurt more — and the last thing we need is that.
I think maybe we should start a ‘Free Mario’ campaign — or simply adopt one of the underused bench players as our blog mascot. Kind of like what’s been done for the Braves’ players in the past. Who knows, maybe just a little bit of blog love could motivate one of our guys — or even convince Woody to give him some run.
In the end, that’s what I’d like to see over the middle third of this season. A little more depth, to keep our main guys healthy and ready for the post season — where you can thin the rotation as much as you want with these three-week long series.
Later,
Don!
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JJ
December 23rd, 2008
3:54 am
Enter your comments hereCongrats to Big Ray and Don.Those are two of the best comments about the Haweks that I have read. I wish Woody would listen to what you guys are saying.I saw the Hawks operate against ST.when JJ was on the bench and Flip and Bibby were in the backcourt together.I’ve also seen that the BIGS get better looks when AC is in the game and he gets in the paint.I wish Woody would play the second unit more like he did during preseason.I think you could develop a good reserve unit by playing AC,Flip,Mo,Solo and Z.P.This unit along with Morris.I believe could give our starters more rest and also give themselves valuable court time.Oh yeah.that iso with JJ will not work as long as JJ don’t trust his teammates to get them the ball,or because he really thinks he’s the only one that he and Woody wants to shoot the ball.I’m tired of this I’m the man crap,play team ball and I bet you that you JJ will get better looks and your teammates will really grow when they know you trust them.Don’t dribble and take bad shot when you can hit the pick man and make the other teams stop doubling you because the will start believing you will actually pass to the cutter.GO HAWKS….
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Aggie80
December 23rd, 2008
12:33 pm
I just want to see Acie traded, so maybe he can get some CONSISTENT playing time somewhere else. I became an immediate Hawks fan when Acie was signed, but I don’t get to see them play much, since not very many games are televised and I live in the West. I am just basing my observations on stats and seeing the last six games of alternating “7:00 minutes of playing time and DNP, Coach’s decision” is just crazy. How can you build young players with that kind of coaching? Please trade him to some team (and coach), who will develop Acie into the kind of player, and leader, that I know he can be!
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Is it true, Bib?
December 23rd, 2008
5:42 pm
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8973180/Marbury-definitely-tops-the-naughty-list
Almost a year later, hotel people out here are still badmouthing Mike Bibby for insisting on ordering everything not on the menu for his party of hangers-on (”I want fried chicken just the way my mother makes it . . .”) and then trying to sign Ron Artest’s name and room to a $330 bill. Precluded from doing so by the waiter, Bibby sniffed the waiter with a sneer, leaving no gratuity. This obnoxious behavior occurred a couple days before the Kings traded him to the Hawks.
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Amazing Weight Loss Story
December 23rd, 2008
6:30 pm
Hi, thanks for sharing that post. I have just stumbled upon your site and You have a new subscriber(me). By the way I’ve been writing a blog about my own weight loss and
weight loss diet food
I would appreciate it if you could take a look at my site and let me know what you think about it.
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Joan
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Big Ray
December 23rd, 2008
7:23 pm
Hi there Joan. What an amazing weight loss story! Mind if we talk about basketball, too?
Hey guys….new blog up in minutes…
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Big Ray
December 23rd, 2008
8:45 pm
Finally, we’re running plays CONSISTENTLY to score inside. It’s working great, as two of our frontcourt starters are scoring in double figures. Bibby is running the screen-and-roll to near perfection.
Perhaps Marvin started going to Chad Johnson’s barber. I don’t know, but it’s working for him. Dude is slashing, driving, and dunking. And drawing fouls. Gotta love it. Didn’t think I’d be saying this, but Bibby is leading this team in ways that Joe Johnson never has. Interesting…
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Big Ray
December 23rd, 2008
8:49 pm
We’ve let them back in the game. When are we going to LEARN??
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Don!
December 23rd, 2008
9:14 pm
OKC, at home. And we’re seeing an 8-man rotation.
8.
Against OKC.
At home.
Finishing — as in finishing the season with healthy, motivated players is going to be the problem if we’re not careful. Up by 7 with 2:24 left after Josh hits a 3-pointer — that didn’t seem to be the inside play we’re looking for here.
This team is like a barn cat playing with its food before eating it — no matter how big (Detroit), or small (OKC) the mouse. And sometimes, these mice will bite back … please just don’t let it be this mouse tonight!
Later,
Don!
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Don!
December 23rd, 2008
9:20 pm
Woody’s reading the blog as he coaches — we have an Acie and Mario sighting with 59 seconds left!
Later,
Don!
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Don!
December 23rd, 2008
9:22 pm
And now Morris too!
Sigh, this is what I wanted to see in the second and third quarters — not this late. These kids need some run in meaningful game situations — not the last minute of trash time.
Later,
Don!
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Don!
December 23rd, 2008
9:30 pm
Hawks win 99-88. And we even had a Solo sighting in the last 30 seconds! Talk about finishing, Acie got a pair of free throws down and Solo (Solo?!!?!) hit a 26-foot three-pointer! Mario had to get into the books too with a technical.
Like I said, this team is like a young barn cat. It just wants to run and ponce, and occasionally it has to gack one up (Celtics) when it tries too hard. I just hope Woody doesn’t run these kids to death before March …
Later,
Don!
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Big Ray
December 23rd, 2008
10:02 pm
Don!
Thanks for coming over, I was beginning to wonder if I should start arguing with myself for amusement!
I really don’t get Woody’s lock-down of the bench. The starters sometimes need a wake-up call (like when they’re not beating the crap out of a league doormat like OKC). And the bench needs to get some serious run, during serious minutes, as you said.
That’s how Boston won last year. With their bench. All through the regular season, and all through the playoffs. No doubts, whatsoever. But then, that would be the difference between Doc Rivers and Mike Woodson.
And times of turmoil are also good times. Look what Poppovich and the Spurs are doing with George Hill, a guy drafted in the 2nd round this past draft. Now you mean to tell me this guy can get serious burn, and Acie Law CAN’T???
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Don!
December 23rd, 2008
10:21 pm
Yeah Big Ray, it looks like we have the blog to ourselves a bit tonight. I imagine things will get better when you guys finally get your link on the main sports page, plus it is crunch time for holiday shopping. In addition, it’s kind of hard to get fired up about playing the worst team in the league. I remember the days when that was us … like three years ago.
On the positive side — I do like the spacing Woody has going on offense. I think teams have really started to respect our shooting, and the offense seems to be designed to open the floor up more than in year’s past. When we can get our guys moving to the basket — there should be openings.
Sometimes it just seems like we settle for too many jump shots sometimes when, at least to my eyes, it looks like there’s a lane to the basket. Marvin got a really nice layup late in the fourth, but I really want to see more power moves out of him, Josh and Big Al — especially like the one Josh pulled out against the Celtics last week. One good rim shaker like that can really set the tone for this team, and as a young team they play much better when they have that swagger that comes from being aggressive at the basket on both offense and defense.
Of course, it’s those 10-12 minutes a game that the Hawks seem to have when they lose focus that really hurts. But, I like the spacing in the offensive half-court sets — we just need to get Woody to light a fire under someone’s tail to take the ball to the rack with authority more often.
Later,
Don!
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MannyT
December 25th, 2008
3:17 pm
Happy Holidays to all.
I know I’m late to this edition of the party, but I cannot let you two blog alone. Some consider Ra-don to be dangerous
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/radon
Winning ugly is the subtitle for this season. Gimpy Josh, short rotations, 3 of top 8 in contract year, 5 of 15 players unlikely to score 82 points this season, A six pack of coaches fired before Christmas–with Woody on solid ground, and we are solidly the 4th best team in the east playing above a 60% winning pace. If I made this stuff up, you would say I was BUI (blogging under the influence.)
Gotta tip your cap to a strange season. At least it’s strange in a good way for us.
How times have changed. Five games for Christmas. The NBA is trying to get me in trouble.
BWAF
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Sautee
December 27th, 2008
9:51 am
Y’all need to get this blog listed on Garmin, Tom-tom, Google maps, etc.
I love how Bibby is trying to involve the bigs lately. I just wish that Joe would do the same. I’ll say it yet again: We will NEVER be a powerhouse team until Joe starts to truly trust the younguns.
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MannyT
December 27th, 2008
3:34 pm
There is now a link to the Hawks Hacks on the Hawks main page of the sports section. However, it takes you directly to the prior blog, not the main page or the current blog.
Progress comes in small steps. Like the 4 years it took Woody to get to a winning record. I suspect your success will be quicker once you get your blog GPS.
Time to kick a few Bulls while they are down tonight.
BWAF
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ConnajartPear
December 27th, 2008
5:50 pm
hello! I like your page
If you are looking for Paid Surveys this is the place for you.
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Big Ray
December 27th, 2008
6:50 pm
No spankyou Mr. Helpy Helperton.
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Big Ray
December 27th, 2008
6:58 pm
These ain’t your pop’s Bulls. These guys excel from the perimeter and practically nowhere else. They’ll likely be all over Bibby, so getting the ball in to Horford, Smoove, and Marv will be paramount.
If we run this right, the Bulls froncourt will be in foul trouble in no time flat. Aaron Gray is a big boy who will give all the effort you can ask for…but he’s slooooow. No match for Horford. Noah is quicker, but not strong enough, and he’s been in and out of the doghouse lately. Same for Tyrus Thomas, who can’t focus if you gave him a view-finder…It will be up to Deng and Nocioni primarily, and while Nocioni will make the effort, he’s also fiery (read: technical prone) when getting into foul trouble against more athletic opponents. Deng has been anything BUT the guy who held out and signed for $71 million this past summer. Somebody better figure that one out QUICK, or it’s going to be someone’s job, I guarantee…
And no playing to the other team’s strengths. Kick them down, kick them hard, and don’t give them a good game plan for how to get their revenge on the next game.
Game On!!
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Big Ray
December 27th, 2008
7:00 pm
Forgot to mention: Drew Gooden is the Bulls’ only true legit hope in the post. And I think he’s either going to be out, or playing with an injury somewhat similar to the one Josh Smith has endured (if I recall correctly).
Unless of course, we aim to let the Bulls bigs have a career night. Better NOT…
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Big Ray
December 27th, 2008
7:30 pm
Here we are already, not putting our feet on their necks. Aarong Gray has proven he’s not quick enough to guard Horford (though he’s tall enough and long enough). Why hasn’t Horford gotten more touches? Well, I guess he’s gotten a decent amount, as he already has handed out an assist or two…
Josh is trying too hard…AGAIN..I say sit him, talk to him, and let Solo get some much-earned burn.
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Big Ray
December 27th, 2008
7:57 pm
Man, Josh is starting to look so good now, playing within his current physical limits and letting the game come to him…
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RealSquawk
December 27th, 2008
8:38 pm
It would be great to see the Hawks put the defense they have played over the past few games with the offensive ball rotation and mix of inside and out they are playing right now into one complete game.
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RealSquawk
December 27th, 2008
8:41 pm
This ability to attack the rim isn’t new from Marvin go back to some of first year highlights and you might be a little disappointed with what you see. It’s almost like he chooses what he bring on the floor for a season.
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Don!
December 27th, 2008
9:06 pm
Bleh, can we just forget the third quarter ever happened?
With that having been said, will we even have an Acie sighting in this game? Woody’s at least put Solo on the floor for a token minute — but no Acie, or Mario for that matter. Heaven forbid should Joe or Bibby go down with anything serious — because those two will need to be ready.
Anyway, 107-100 with
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Don!
December 27th, 2008
9:06 pm
… 8:11 to go. Darn ’submit button’ … it got me!
Just hold on Hawks!
Later,
Don!
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RealSquawk
December 27th, 2008
9:12 pm
I would really like to see the hawks put clamp on them and see score stay at 107
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Don!
December 27th, 2008
9:33 pm
Free Acie and Mario!
Up by 10 with 51.4 to go, and still no run for those two.
We’ve looked good in spurts, but really didn’t put our heel to their throat until late in the fourth. Of course, that’s a good time to do it — but if we took care of business earlier, we could lengthen out the rotation.
Bleh, I’m sounding like a broken record — and I guess I should be happy with our record overall. But man, there’s a part of me that is really, really, scared of something happening to one of our key players (again) and then seeing Acie and Mario forced into more minutes before they’re ready — when they should be getting more minutes now.
Later,
Don!
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Don!
December 27th, 2008
9:34 pm
Whoa, Mario gets a whole minute — and in the spirit of this column — gets a DUNK with six seconds left.
See Woody, Mario can play — and finish!
Free Acie and Mario!
Later,
Don!
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Big Ray
December 27th, 2008
10:00 pm
Don!,
You’re not the only one who’s scared about this. A bench that is limited will in turn limit you when you need it. A bench out of rhythm can’t help you get into rhythm when your starters are out of it. A bench that doesn’t play, won’t play well for you when called upon.
And if somebody gets injured, you’re screwed. Woody does this to himself. He shortens his rotation for reasons unknown to us. Then, when someone gets injured (and while we hope beyond hope, it may very likely happen again…it’s a long season), the rotation gets even shorter. Guys play more minutes. Harder minutes. Then they’re tired and out of gas. And then we’ll wonder why we can’t finish games.
Never diminish your team’s current record. It’s like not acknowledging that you have two fridges full of food. But never brag about the two fridges, and ignore the need to continue to stockpile food stuffs at a steady rate. Sure, we are a wonderful 19-10. But what will happen when JJ gets hurt? How about Al? Marvin? Josh? Even worse….Bibby?
Yes, I say even worse. Know why? Because if you’re looking closely enough, you are seeing this become Bibby’s team. JJ is the man, for what that’s worth. But he’s slowly no longer becoming the spear-head. It’s Bibby that’s trusting guys, and getting them going in the offense. It’s he that is throwing the ball up the court when the wings get out and run. JJ is going for his, and he’s getting it (he sure did tonight, did he not?). But he’s becoming more Michael Redd (yes, I stole that from my friend Sautee). A shooter. A gunner. The only difference is that he is still putting up good assist numbers. Most of that is not off of playmaking, though. It’s off of being trapped and drawing enough defenders to NEED to pass the ball.
But that’s just how I’m seeing it. I could be wrong. But I feel like the transition is happening right in front of us.
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Don!
December 28th, 2008
12:24 am
Yeah, I gotta agree it’s becoming Bibby’s team. He’s not the point guard I expected him to be for this team, and you have to give him props for getting everyone involved — even on those nights when he’s our best offensive option. But teams have to have a lead dog, and we have a good one in JJ, and we needed him to go for 40+ on occasion. A player that can do that, is a must for a team to go anywhere in the playoffs. Is there anyone else you want to see at the top of the key with the ball, less than 10 seconds to go in the game when your team’s down by one?
I mean, I love what Bibby’s brought to the team, JSmooth is JSmooth, Hordford is a young beast, and Marvin might eventually meet some of the expectations everyone has for him — but JJ is the stone cold killer this team needs. There’s only about a dozen of those cats in the NBA — and if you team doesn’t have one, you’re not going anywhere. That’s the difference between Dallas and the Lakers. Both teams have a ton of talent — but there’s a reason Kobe has about a dozen nicknames that all mean ‘killer’ in the end.
If there was a version of NBA Jam coming out today (anyone else remember that video game?), I’d be happy to have Bibby and JJ as my team. And for the Hawks, they provide the leadership, and scoring, and stone cold killer attitude we need to finally be winners.
For once, we’re winning the games we’re supposed to win. It wasn’t long ago when we would have found a way to lose these games. However, our defense was MIA tonight. This was the second time we let Rose get his career high — and 117 is too many points to be giving up to the Bulls.
Is it just something about Internet blogs where we just have to find the bad things? Can’t we be happy at 19-10, holding down a #4 seed, with Hollinger giving us a 97.3% chance of making the playoffs? I feel jaded sometimes — while I darn well know I better enjoy this while it lasts!
So, without further adieu — and I may not say this again — THANK YOU WOODY AND THE ATLANTA SPIRIT FOR GIVING US A GOOD TEAM TO WATCH!
Later,
Don!
P.S. Free Acie and Mario!
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Sautee
December 28th, 2008
10:52 am
One caveat to my Michael Redd comment. Ray and I were speaking of OFFENSE. Before anybody jumps on me, I’ll defend JJ for his defense, which Michael Redd cannot come close to.
And last night’s game was the first time since early in the season that Joe LOOKED like a $14M / Year player.
I’d like to see that at least every other game. Not the point totals, but WHERE he took the shots, and how he involved his teammates early enough in the clock that there was no desperation in their moves. There was a definite flow last night, which Joe can also at times grind to a halt by holding on to the ball too long.
It’s great to be 19-10!
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MannyT
December 28th, 2008
12:48 pm
Interesting stats.
Top of list is always best to get that W!
Missed game, but there are still some seriously scary things lurking in the shadows.
I live with the fact that we don’t beat the will out of teams, the Hawks scrum throughout regardless of the level of competition.
Given that reality, I do wonder why Woody doesn’t give the bench more opportunities to play prior to the 4th quarter. They would get some experience (especially against weaker teams). This would have been a way to give the “I want to see more defense” message to the regulars. I don’t think JJ would pout if he averaged 38 mins a game. He and Woody remind me of John Cheney & terrance Stansbury at Temple in the 1980s. (Only player I knew of that averaged OVER 40 mins/game for an entire season in college.)
If you were AC would you want to extend your deal here or move on at the first chance to actually play? If you are Sund and you recognize that Woody won’t play much of a bench, why pay for guys that won’t play. I can see 8 good contracts and 6 or 7 minimums in the future.
…assuming Bibby continues to be successful, there will be very interesting negotiations this summer. How much do you pay for a crafty PG in his 30s who has lost a step when you are over the cap?
BWAF
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DecDawg
December 28th, 2008
2:04 pm
I am in total agreement that Woody needs to use the guys on the bench. We have enough talent on this team to play 10 guys a night. Getting minutes and production out of the forgotten guys (especially Acie) is actually crucial to the second half of the season and these guys are not a liability if used correctly. While Acie is not as good of a shooter as Bibby, he’s much better at breaking his man down, getting into the middle of the defense and creating opportunities for others. And he’s also better at defending quicker guards than Bibby. Not to mention, his attributes allow us to change our style of play and show the defense something different.
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Burning down the house « The Big Three
December 28th, 2008
7:51 pm
[...] I come back to find that The Big Three has been getting a little internet celebrity traffic! Big Ray from ajc.com was in the house just last week. Ya’ll go check out Ray’s blog, the guy is [...]
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BA
December 28th, 2008
8:32 pm
Not sure how that happened, Ray- I put a link to The Hawks Hacks on my blog, and the above link popped up here automatically. I was trying to direct traffic TO your site, not away from it!
In any event-
Games like the one Saturday are a result (much to some folks chagrin) of playing your starters heavy minutes. The chemistry with Atlanta’s starting five has been on a steep incline. I’m not saying these kids (Acie and Solo in particular) SHOULD be languishing away on the bench the way they are, but it’s hard not to notice the benefit. Williams and Smith are playing out of their mind. Horford rarely gets in foul trouble anymore…Woodson has (from what I’ve seen) made a conscious effort to pace Bibby- but with Flip Murray, who they paid big money to come in here and back up the point. I see no reason why Johnson, a 26 year-old superstar (yeah, I said it) in his prime should see any decrease in mpg. Dude is making McGrady money, and he’s playing McGrady minutes. Where does Acie get any pt? I could see arguing Acie OVER Flip, but I can’t see a decrease in Bibby and Johnson’s minutes. Not with the two of them playing at this level.
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BA
December 28th, 2008
8:37 pm
DecDawg, respectfully, there’s no way Law is a better distributor or better at “breaking people down” than Bibby. I think Acie could be a servicable guard in this league eventually, but right now Bibby is the better player (if slightly slower). Last year Bibby’s defense was suspect, but with the exception of freaks of nature like Rose, he’s done a good job on perimeter D.
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DecDawg
December 29th, 2008
12:00 am
BA, I agree with you that Bibby is a better player than Acie. I would never argue that point. But Acie is better at taking his man to the rack than Bibby. What Acie lacks is playing time to help his game grow. I’m sure you would have said the same about Rondo and Stuckey a year ago but look at what playing time has done for them. All I’m saying is that Acie’s can be a weapon for us. I’m not saying that he should replace Bibby but it is in our best interests to help him grow. Whether we are helping him grow to help us in the future or if we want a stronger bargaining chip for a trade. To let him waste away on the bench serves no purpose at all.
And for the record, Bibby is not nearly as quick as Acie and his defense is still suspect. But I understand that Bibby is maybe the most important piece to our puzzle (since he’s the only other person Woodson allows to shoot in the 4th quarter besides JJ).
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Najeh Davenpoop
December 29th, 2008
4:41 am
I think Woody is finally trusting Josh and Al to handle the ball in the post, which is why you’re seeing more layups and dunks in recent games. I’ve been saying for a while (and so have many of y’all) that they need to be fed in the post more, and finally it seems to be happening. I was at the game against the Bulls on Saturday and I really liked what I saw — most of the time when Josh or Al got the ball down low, it either led to free throw opportunities, easy buckets for cutters, layups, or dunks, and it opened up easier perimeter looks as well.
I’m on the Free Acie bandwagon too (at the very least he deserves as much playing time as the ball hog Flip Murray) but overall I’m pretty impressed with Woody so far this year.
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Big Ray
December 29th, 2008
2:17 pm
Thanks for coming over guys, as always.
BA,
I don’t know what that was either, until I read your post, lol! Don’t sweat the small stuff, and I appreciate both your contributions AND your attempts to bring people this way. As I sit here, wondering if I should put up another blog…I have to say that there is an argument both for and against giving Acie PT vs Flip Murray.
On Woody….you either commit to the coach and what the coach wants, or you change coaches. It has to be one or the other, I think. Either give Woody what he wants/needs to do the job he’s being paid to do…or get somebody else in here. Until then, what to do with the guys who get no burn?
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Sautee
December 29th, 2008
4:00 pm
Ray,
I’ll have to say that respectfully, I reject the either/or premise regarding Woody. Last season Ed Stefanski gave Mo Cheeks an ultimatum to play his young players more. And as we all know, it worked, The Sixers got better as the year went on. And yeah, I know what happened this year, but the point is that Stefanski, like Sund, inherited a coach (as opposed to hiring one), and still felt he could give some marching orders. And you’d have to say that beyond the Sixers’ struggles, that they are still better off for getting all that playing time for Williams, Young and their young bigs.
If you remember, Sund said early on that player development was to be a major point of emphasis. So what are we seeing? Journeyman vets getting most of the playing time off the bench, despite playing just like “journeymen”. Meanwhile a lottery pick languishes on the bench DESPITE playing well. And a promising 2nd rounder as well. If I thought they (Acie and Solo) had played WORSE than FlipMo I’d feel differently. But that’s not the case.
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BA
December 29th, 2008
6:56 pm
Has it been established if Acie was exclusively a “Billy Knight” pick? How much pull did Woodson have in the selection process? I think it’s safe to say Solo was a classic Billy Knight forward type of pick(of course, I know nothing for a fact).
So the debate is FlipMo vs. Acie/Solo? Flip has been streaky, and Evans shot has been off for a couple of weeks. But logic dictates that they’re paying these cats a signifigant amount of scratch. And I don’t think FlipMo has played poorly enough to justify replacing their minutes with the same inconsistent young players they were replacing in the first place. It might be a different story if the Hawks weren’t, say, 19-10!
A decade is long enough with the player development. Every team has three or four guys that almost never play. If two of our three are promising young guys, that bodes well for the next couple of years. I don’t think it means we play them if we don’t have too, especially during a winning streak. The players in front of these guys are for the most part young and hitting their prime, so naturally they’re going to play more minutes.
And yeah, I get Ray’s (and a lot of others) point in regards to injury. But consider this- we lost our second best player for a month, and they weathered the storm. Of course, with this “becoming Bibby’s team” (good line, that one) I shudder to think what would happen, starting Flip…
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Don!
December 29th, 2008
7:12 pm
I said it on draft day two years ago, and I’ll say it again now: I’d rather have Acie than Conley Jr.
Look at Acie’s college career — the man could flat carry a team. He can pass, he can shoot and he can distribute. None of that has changed, except that he hasn’t been given a chance to do that in Woody’s system.
I don’t know if it’s because Acie hurt his ankle early in the season last year, or if he’s really in the doghouse, or if Flip has compromising pictures of Woody at the Hanna Montana concert from 2006 — but the bottom line is that a legitimate lottery pick is getting almost no run on a team that could use him.
Is Acie perfect? No. Does he have limitations at the pro level? Yes. But he can help this team, right now — and maybe even more in the future. Don’t forget, Bibby’s an unrestricted free agent after this season. If we were to lose Bibby, who takes over?
… oh, I think I just heard Speedy slip on a grape peal back in the player’s lounge area, be right back …
Sigh, it sounds like another 6-10 week recovery period for Speedy.
Anyway, the season is 82 games long. This is the period where you HAVE to work your role players into the system. If you run JJ and Bibby 40 minutes every night for the next two months — they’re going to be worn out — especially if they spend the energy on D that Woody expects them too. And yes, that was a run-on sentence and it still had the letter D and Bibby’s name in it.
Look, I don’t have a hidden stash of Acie jerseys that I’m speculating on, and if you want to take the majority of this post and swap the name Mario with Acie — I’m fine with that. But the problem remains that we need to get about 15 minutes of run a night for one or both of those guys and get JJ and Bibby down to more manageable minutes for a bit. We need this for both now and the future.
Free Acie and Mario!
Later,
Don!
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Don!
December 29th, 2008
9:39 pm
20-10. And for the most part, especially in the second half — we looked good. Denver really missed Nene though.
Flip and Mo got all the reserve minutes tonight. I’m beginning to believe that Woody is just not going to play Acie and Mario any meaningful minutes for whatever reason. However, at least he kept JJ and Bibby both under 40 minutes tonight, and that’s pretty important too.
I’m thinking more and more that Woody’s rotation preferences are a lot like Bobby Cremins’ ones back at Tech in the late ’80s. You get 5-6 guys and ride them hard, and one or two more who see a little time. I mean, me and Ray could have been bench players on those teams with Mark Price and John Salley. You would never know any differently from the score sheets, because the other eight guys on the team never sniffed the court.
But hey, we’re 20-10 for the first time in more than a decade. As long as we’re playing like we did tonight, I just have to remember that Woody is the NBA coach, and I’m the anonymous Internet blogger. One of us coaches an NBA team, and the other just thinks he can!
Go Hawks!
Later,
Don!
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Don!
December 29th, 2008
9:40 pm
Oh, I forgot.
FREE ACIE AND MARIO!
Later,
Don!
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MonkeyMan
December 30th, 2008
8:57 am
What happened to the blog????? Been waiting and waiting…
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Big Ray
December 30th, 2008
9:44 am
Monkeyman, the next blog article is titled “The Finishing Touch.” The link to getting here is bad, and the AJC techs haven’t yet put this blog out where it is supposed to be yet (it is the Holidays, after all), so you have to either find a link to it, or Google it. Sorry. And while you’re looking through “The Finishing Touch”, I’ll be writing a new one. Good luck finding it, and thanks for coming by….
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Big Ray
December 30th, 2008
10:35 am
Sautee,
The either/or approach is merely the beginning. It only stands to sense that you hold the coach fully responsible for player usage and development. I think the 2-year extension for is all about Sund getting the opportunity to assess Woodson over a reasonable amount of time. I don’t know how he feels about all of Billy’s picks. I’m sure he would not have picked all of the same guys. But he probably wants to see what Woody can do with what he feels is useable.
There’s a saying though: Every GM eventually wants to bring in his own guy. Maybe Woody is a guy that Sund likes. Maybe he wants to bring in his own guy. But Sund did not build this team. He’s responsible for brining in Morris, signing Hunter and Gardner, Murray, and Evans. He’s responsible for the loss of Childress and matching the offer Smith got from Memphis. That’s about it.
And yet…it begins with either building your own roster, whether you use existing pieces or blow the whole thing up and start from scratch (as Billy did), then either matching a coach to your creation, or committing the one you’ve already got. Everything else flows from there.
BA,
A very good record covers a lot of ills. Sund did say he was concerned with player development. If Bibby is re-signed for a few more years, then we have less to worry about at the pg position. However, we don’t know that this will happen. Neither do they. A good back-up plan would seem to be in order. Whatever it is (and you can only assume that it exists), it does not seem to currently include Acie. That’s all I can say there. As you rightly fear (and I’ve said it before myself), what happens if Bibby goes down for any significant length of time?
Every wave in the ocean breaks at some point…it’s a cycle of ebb and flow.
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Robert
December 30th, 2008
11:17 am
What happened to all those AJC sports writers that wanted to change the Hawks coaching staff? How stupid you look. These boys mesh with their coach,he earn the right to coach these boys throughout there Hawks career. Theres good chemistry there. You Crucified Micheal Vick and now you want us to rally around some slow white guy whose riding the back of two great running backs…. to h__ with the AJC writers and to h__ with author blank and the Blank falcons….Go Hawks….
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Big Ray
December 30th, 2008
11:59 am
OOPs. I don’t know how I managed to put the smiley face on there. I meant to say “loss to the Clippers by 8). Weird….
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BA
December 30th, 2008
12:46 pm
So who does our newfound defensive stopper guard- Granger? I heard Daniels (the guy that wears hearbands similar to my daughters) went for damn near thirty the other night! If Atlanta can rebound half as well as last night, Murphy might dissapear. And it will be interesting to see how Big Al (no relation to Big Ray) handles Nestorovic this time around. Also, can Murray flip his switch like last night again? Is Woody REALLY going to put any of these kids in?
Also, on an unrelated note, how good is this team going to be when Childress comes back next year?
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Don!
December 30th, 2008
1:34 pm
Well, for a new nickname for Mr. Williams, we could go with something like, “Marvelous” Marvin Williams — but that’s just too easy. I think we need to go the same route we took in coming up with JSmooth for Josh Smith.
With that having been said, I like ‘Momentum’ for Marvin. I’m not sure if that should be a stand alone, single name for him — like a super hero, or as part of his real name, like Marvin ‘Momentum’ Williams.
I like Momentum because that’s what he’s always been about. Getting better and gaining speed. When people were (and are) trashing us for taking him over CP3, Marvin never really bit on those sound bites. He just held his ground and started doing his own thing.
Slowly over the last couple of years, he’s started showing the promise we all hoped he had when we drafted him. And now, he’s gaining momentum — just like the Hawks — and in a positive manner as well! Momentum can be a bad thing in the wrong direction (See Detroit Lions, NFL).
But momentum also describes Marvin’s play most nights. He usually doesn’t come out trying to force his game, he just weaves his way into it. He might start with a help on defense, then a tip in off of the offensive glass, then a quick assist kicking out to an open three for Bibby or JJ. But by the third or fourth quarter — he’s everywhere, and when he’s on — you can’t stop him. That’s Momentum.
So, if we’re going to stick Marvin with a nickname, I say ‘Momentum’ is a good one for a good player trying to become a great player on a (hopefully) great team.
Later,
Don!
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fudd21
December 30th, 2008
1:57 pm
OMG! Ray gave Marvin props. Te he he. At the beginning of the year I thought Marv would get to that 18 ppg mark. I was wrong but as Ray said the overall improvement in his game is very noticeable even if the ppg have taken a slight dip. It is really exciting times to be a Hawks fan.
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MannyT
December 30th, 2008
1:58 pm
The newer blog software seems to understand and convert SOME emoticons. wink testing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emoticon
In the meantime, this is a ride to enjoy as long as guys are healthy and playing well. As we have a full squad this go round, I expect the Hawks to win tonight. There will be significant pressure from TJ Ford, but BK’s equal sizing player strategy seems to help a lot now that Woody’s defensive will is finally working on the team.
Not that I have anything useful on the Marvin nickname thing, but if I take some ideas and do a little mixing, I get HowarD (as in Howard the Duck http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_the_duck)
BWAF
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jhan
December 30th, 2008
3:08 pm
Hey Ray, I found your new blog!
I have to agree with your two key points (Bibby & Marvin) being the biggest reasons for our improvement.
Another reason, which many discounted before this season, is the continued organic growth of our young guys (Smith, Horford & Marvin).
I believe “richbrave” or “Ken Strickland” mentioned this & was immediately chastised for their stance. Hard to argue with that now. Only Josh seems to make the same mistakes over & over & over & over ….
Tonights game should be important to the Hawks. We’re starting to beat the teams we should at home – let’s start beating them on the road.
Being a strong critic of Woody over the years – I will take this opportunity to give him his props! I still believe he is flawed in many areas as a coach, but right now all I can say is “Great Job Woody”!
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Najeh Davenpoop
December 30th, 2008
5:22 pm
I think more than anything ever since Bibby came, everyone on this team has just played smarter. Having a veteran with playoff experience can have that effect.
The Pacers are a better team than their record indicates. Marvin has done a good job playing man to man defense against some of the NBA’s best recently, and he’s gonna have to do the same against Danny Granger. The Pacers are missing TJ Ford, so they will have a harder time exploiting the Hawks’ vulnerability against quicker point guards. Another wrinkle the Hawks are gonna have to deal with though is that the Pacers now start Roy Hibbert, which gives them two 7 footers they can use inside between him and Rasho Nesterovic. If the Hawks can box out and keep Granger in check they should be able to win this game, but if they let the Pacers’ big men get boards easily they will be in trouble.
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elmer fudd
December 30th, 2008
6:11 pm
Enter your comments here
ray, are you doing most of the heavy lifting now, or is H.B. contributing anon? what’s Bibby’s assist to turnover ratio? that says a lot about how effective a pg he truly is.
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Big Ray
December 30th, 2008
6:23 pm
Man, am I glad y’all found this blog! I hate talking to myself here (or anywhere else). Especially with my partner being AWOL (okay, I know where he’s supposed to be, but something tells me all computers have been hidden from him in the land of holiday in-laws).
Fudd21,
Hey, I have to give credit where it’s due man. I hear ya though, lol! I even have to give credit to Woody, but that I’m saving for another blog. I’d say I agree with you that Marvin now shows the absolute capability to be an 18ppg guy. On this team, I’m not sure he’ll ever be, not if we keep all the same players and play the way we’re playing. The scoring is still largely existing in the backcourt. But hey, if that’s the best way for us to win on most nights, then I’m cool with that. What I’m not cool with is not having a back-up plan when one of the backcourt guys is out. For right now, we better pray, and pray hard that this NEVER happens. Outside of Murray, we have no game-ready replacements. And Murray’s not exactly a replacement for EITHER guy.
Don!,
I still feel like I’m shouting at you, adding the exclamation point to your name. Dude, as far as I’m concerned, Marvin has arrived. I’ll always say that the Marvin vs CP3 argument is an unfair one. It always will be. The draft was all about choice and vision. Billy wanted what he wanted: a lengthy, athletic forward with some good skills. What he passed over was a very special point guard and team leader. A guy who is able to take a less talented group of players, and lead them into the second round of the playoffs. That’s what you draft a dynamic pg for. And that was something we needed, and FINALLY got in Bibby, though I don’t know if we’ll be able to retain his services beyond this season (not a comforting thought). Marvin is now doing what he was drafted to do. He’s doing what this team needs him to do. And that’s how I choose to judge him. Judging him against a guy our GM at the time probably was never interested in (and his head coach reportedly wasn’t either). It’s just not fair.
Having gotten over the CP3 thing, I prefer to compare Marvin to the guy he was set to replace: Harrington.
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Big Ray
December 30th, 2008
6:31 pm
Jhan,
I agree. Organic growth has been instrumental in the improvement of this team. And yeah, Ken and Rich did take some flak over suggesting that this would take place. However, some of the noise being made over that had to do with the idea that all teams experience organic growth to a point. I think we experienced MORE at the right time, than did many other teams. Either way, Ken and Rich were correct. And Josh does seem to make some of the same mistakes over and over. It’s only a short few of them, like going for the 3 when he should be cutting to the basket, and trying to make a pass play at the wrong time. But he IS cutting down on ALL of his mistakes. A better point guard in rhythm with the team is definitely directly related to a better and more effective JSmooth. That’s what concerns me, though. If Bibby is ever out, will JSmooth still play within his game? He has to be mature enough to do so. But if you’re out there with a guy like Flip, who doesn’t do half the things Bibby does to get a guy the ball in the right place and play within the flow of the game….what will the reaction be? I think I know…
Najeh,
Your suggestion that we put a body on the Pacers bigs is probably the biggest key to winning this game. Nice call, and I think we’ll see the proof that you’re right within minutes…
BA,
I see JJ guarding (and neutralizing) Daniels. Marvin will get Granger. If there is a problem, perhaps Woody will switch things up. The defensive play of Evans and Murray will be a turning point too, I think, depending on how much they play.
Elmer Fudd,
Ando should be back around soon, though I haven’t heard from him in days. As for Bibby’s assist to turnover ration, I can’t remember the exact numbers, but it’s REALLY GOOD. I think it’s like 5.4 assists to 1.68 turnovers. Can’t ask for better. Gotta go for a few minutes guys. Keep posting!
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Astro Joe
December 30th, 2008
7:29 pm
Cool, this blog wasn’t getting much more “PT” than Acie. Glad to see it has surfaced to it’s rightful spot on the AJC website. Now let’s see if Acie gets comparable love from Woody.
Oh and did someone mention “organic growth”? Where have I heard that one before?
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Big Ray
December 30th, 2008
7:41 pm
Astro Joe,
You definitely deserved a mention on the organic growth thing. I thought of that right after I posted…
Sorry, man.
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Don!
December 30th, 2008
8:16 pm
Ray, you can yell at me if you want to. It’s okay, I yell at the television (or computer monitor — thanks NBA League Pass) when the Hawks are playing (Or Falcons or Braves), and my wife yells at me because I’m yelling at the screen.
Up by 4 at the half, and Woody’s settled into a hard 8-man rotation. Joe’s at 20 minutes and Bibby’s at 19, Murray and Evans have 9 and 7 minutes of run respectively. So far, Acie has counted 15 splinters on the left side of the bench, while Mario has seen at least 12 from his seat. Speedy slipped and fell in the locker room, and he looks to be out another 4-6 weeks.
Anyway, we got off to a bit of a rough start, but finished the half on a good run. I’d like to see Solo in there, if nothing else than to get aggressive in the paint, and if he gets a couple of rough fouls in — that may be a bonus.
The scoring has been really even, with no one in double digits. All eight of the hawks who have seen the floor have found the hoop — and that’s a good sign. Ball movement is your friend.
Okay, the second half is about to start. I predict a 10-point Hawks win with a token Acie and Mario sighting with about 90 seconds to go. And just for laughs, I say Acie gets a late hoop on a 12-foot jumper.
Later,
Don!
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doc
December 30th, 2008
9:02 pm
aj, yeah bro, when i read that organic growth comment and it wasnt attributed to you i came close to making the correction. see you beat me to it.
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doc
December 30th, 2008
9:22 pm
oh my! superstar stuff?
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Astro Joe
December 30th, 2008
9:31 pm
Ray & Doc, no worries on the organic growth comment. Rarely does anyone around here have unique opinions.
Heck of a win.
Is ‘Nique getting better or am I adjusting to his skills (or lack thereof)? I didn’t think he was as awful tonight as he’s been in the past.
Helluva win…. or did I say that already?
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Astro Joe
December 30th, 2008
9:35 pm
To be clear… I also have very few unique views on these Hawks… that previous comment may have come across in the wrong way. I was mostly speaking inclusively… me too!
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doc
December 30th, 2008
9:39 pm
aj, that organic growth stuff started with you. richie hadnt arrived on the scene yet and ken was still over on the falcons blog saving the world from the savages. heh heh
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Big Ray
December 30th, 2008
9:40 pm
Well, another win under the belt, and it feels pretty good.
Don!,
The bench comments were funny. Again, no playing time outside of the usual 8 guys. Not understanding it, but whatever. As long as the wins are coming, the decision to hamstring the bench goes unquestioned, I suppose.
Nice effort by Horford on defense and the glass. I love watching him work out there.
Josh Smith has been making a living in the post here lately. His post moves (he spins pretty good) look so much better than his attempts to shake and bake (he looks like he’s more likely to break his OWN ankles sometimes). As a result, he’s also been making a living at the line. And the final result? A couple of 20 point performances. I think we can expect to see more soon if he continues to play like this.
Bibby was his usual self: promoting ball movement, picking up a half dozen assists, and hitting some big shots when needed.
Another win on a tough test, on the road. Gotta love it. Momentum is a mutha….
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doc
December 30th, 2008
9:41 pm
josh reincarnated yet, even with the bone headed 3 attempt at the end?
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Big Ray
December 30th, 2008
9:48 pm
Astro Joe,
As Doc said, the organic growth stuff DID come from you first. And I even recall who gave you the most crap for it: myself and dear ol’ Ando. You were right. I was wrong. Unique opinion or not. Looks to me like the organic growth has taken effect and been augmented by the Bibby effect. I knew you weren’t poking with the stick, but you still deserved the recognition.
Doc,
Now I KNEW you wouldn’t miss that one. Not a fella with a long memory like yourself, faced with an opportunityt to take a “hack” at a “hack.” LOL! Now where’s Ando to help fade the heat….
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Big Ray
December 30th, 2008
9:48 pm
Doc,
There’s no saving *those* savages. Trust me…
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doc
December 30th, 2008
10:00 pm
yeah bro ray, enjoy my regular mates right here, good guys all. there are a few times we beat our chests a bit.
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doc
December 30th, 2008
10:03 pm
oh dear, seems like we might feel a little heat before it is all over. see a 6 team race in the east developing with the rest being pretenders. nets might yet join the party, bucks, knicks, maybe; rest seem done and can only play the role of spoilers.
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HB Ando
December 30th, 2008
10:30 pm
Man, I feel like I just came off of an epic road trip. Flew back in to the ATL, from Philly, a few hours ago. It’s not that I underestimated the familial expectations for an audience with BABY GIRL, but I now feel a sense of what the Pope must experience.
I hope Ray’s back isn’t too sore, from carrying me the last week and a half. But these “real life” obligations were a major factor in setting up our blog in tandem.
Let’s get a ying-and-yang point out of the way: Astro Joe is solely credited with the term “organic growth”, as far as Sekou’s blog is concerned. Now, the yang is that I’m not sure how anyone can objectify how much that “growth” covers the current 21-10 record. Impact? No doubt. But if there’s anyone here who can firmly state what the Hawks record would be, without Bibby, Evans and Flip, then I’m listening, and ready to give props.
Truth is that every NBA team that’s ever made a leap has been a combination of developed youth and acquired veterans. Unless you believed the Hawks would never improve (which would be an odd perspective, given the upwards trajectory, annually, from the depths of a 13-win team), then ANY improvement from last years’ 37-win team would logically have some foundation from the youthful front line.
So here’s where the Hawks now stand: 21 wins, with 51 games to go. 26-25, the rest of the way, would mean 47 wins. But is there any reason to believe that a team who is 11 games over .500, after 31, should flounder in such a fashion?
Not unless they trade Mike Bibby. My long-standing prediction that they would, prior to the trade deadline, based on financial implications, looks shakier with every additional win. Not because I believe the ASG is reaping the additional, necessary revenues, to afford the current payroll. But because they seemingly have the opportunity to experience one of the rare seasons, in any sport, when everything comes together, and the teams’ chemistry is just right. Even if they are hurting, in this challenging economy, with the Belkin situation ominously looming, trading Bibby, in the midst of this kind of winning run, would likely be a public relations disaster.
They are now “in for a penny, in for a pound”.
These Hawks look like the fourth seed (though there are a couple of teams who present a plausible challenge to that outcome).
At this point of the season, any critiques, of the coaching staff or the players, is straight nitpicking.
This team is on a roll. There’s nothing much to do but kick back and enjoy……..
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doc
December 30th, 2008
10:37 pm
ando, glad you are safely back and the little one healthy.
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Big Ray
December 30th, 2008
10:37 pm
Doc,
I think you’re right about who will join in the Eastern fray. My pick is the Nets, if they stay relatively healthy. Carter and Harris are LETHAL.
Ando!
Good to have you back. By the way, this blog is now in the position of the former Hack’s spot, in case you didn’t see it. Glad you’re around. I was having fun here, but kept drifting over to shadow-box with Kirk on Sekou’s blog. What can I say, we all have our vices. Sometimes it’s hard not to resist the bait when you know you can snatch the angler right into the water, reel and all…
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Astro Joe
December 30th, 2008
11:08 pm
No doubt that the Hawks 31 game record is not due exclusively to organic growth. It is related to all of the reasons discussed and one more that I haven’t seen mentioned.
Joe’s teammates are allowing him to be a SUPERSTAR in the 4th quarter. Bibby takes off a ton of pressure and has all but stopped opposing coaches from using their PG to double JJ. Flip has allowed JJ time to rest when he does his best Andrew Toney imitation in the first 3 quarters. And Marvin (organic growth Marvin), has significantly improved his defense so JJ doesn’t always have to guard the opposing team’s top wing scorer. In the past 10 games, we’ve watched Marvin play tenacious defense against the likes of Pierce, LeBron, Melo and Granger tonight. His offense may suffer but he has been outstanding with making those elite scorers work super-hard. All of that, Bibby, Flip and Marvin means that JJ has a little more in his gas tank for the 4th quarter. If we were to point to any one big difference with this team? They know how to win in the 4th quarter. They get on the strong backs of their excellent backcourt and ride those cats to a victory. I’ve actually grown to expect the Hawks to win games that are tight going into the 4th quarter.
It’s WAYYYY too early to predict playoff seedings… even if Chad Ford himself has penciled in the Hawks in the 4th slot.
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HB Ando
December 31st, 2008
1:01 am
Joe, I don’t know that saying the Hawks “look like a fourth seed” is the same as predicting their regular season finish. But barring major injury or the trade of Bibby, they do look like the 4th best team in the East.
Funny to see Ray highlight the Nets (and good to get on the phone and catch up with my fellow Hack). I thought the Nets, Heat and Bucks all projected to be better than most of our blog believed. Bucks have dealt with major injury issues,but should be .500 plus the rest of the way. The Heat just knocked off the Cavs, and, like the Pistons (with Dumars), are the most likely team to make a big trade (Riley rarely stands pat).
Then there is the Nets. Ray mentioned their back court, rightfully. But it’s the complement of young big men that make them potentially dangerous by the time the playoffs roll around. I don’t think it was a fluke that they beat the Hawks in that home-and-home, earlier this season. I think they’re the 5-8 seed that no one in the East will want to play in the first round (this season’s Hawks?).
Didn’t know Arenas and Haywood would be out the whole year (the most recent buzz about Arenas, at least), and honestly didn’t predict that both Philly and the Raps would play so poorly.
But that pretty much sums up how a 9th seed projection becomes a 4th-5th seed performance. It will always be easier to make predictions a few days before the regular season tip off. It will always be more fun to roll the dice of opinion 3 months earlier, right or wrong…….
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MannyT
December 31st, 2008
1:21 am
Would it be wrong of me to pick up the minutes rant here? hmmmm
Guess who has played more minutes than any other player as of the end of 2008…JJ. Granted on average, he is a tenth behind Stephen Jackson, who has missed a few games.
http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Minutes.jsp?league=00&season=22008&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=9&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1&sortOrder=3&splitDD=All%20Teams
Gotta laugh about the minutes guys played in the 60s versus now. These days pro sports are a year round deal with more emphasis on fitness to maintain those big paychecks.
I look forward to the why minutes matter blog
What a night–Hawks win, celts & Cavs lose.
BWAF
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Ryan
December 31st, 2008
8:19 am
We have a twenty one and ten team . . . but half the comments are complaints about the team. I have a feeling that if we were somehow 29 – 1, half the posts would be about that one loss. . .]
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elmer fudd
December 31st, 2008
9:15 am
Enter your comments here
Strive for perfection Ryan, strive for perfection.
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Don!
December 31st, 2008
10:36 am
Ryan, just remember behind every silver lining — there’s a dark cloud.
A bunch of us here are folks scarred from the 13 win season of a few years ago. And the JR Rider trade before that. And trading ‘Nique … so, hopefully that might explain our mindset.
A number of us also believe that ‘Nique got shafted in the Slam Dunk contest with Jordan back in the day. So we not only have the recent past to temper our enthusiasm, but a healthy dose of conspiracy theory when needed as well.
Anyway, speaking of sliver linings, it looks like the links to the blog are pretty much squared away now. Hopefully that will increase the traffic and conversation here. Of course, we’ll probably get our fair share of ads trying to sell us male enhancement and/or weight loss products too …
Sorry, just had to throw that last line out there in the spirit of this post.
Anyway, I feel pretty darn giddy over being 21-10 at this point in the season — and I feel even better for going 43-42 over all of 2008. If we can keep that level of improvement up for 2009, we might be looking at putting up the first Hawks banner of some type in Phillips Arena pretty soon!
Later,
Don!
P.S. Free Acie and Mario!
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Big Ray
December 31st, 2008
10:47 am
And Solo!
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mountain_jim
December 31st, 2008
11:19 am
Well I see ajc finally got it together to give you bloggers a link on the sports page… lol. only took a week or two, eh?
I can’t comment much on the wins because I ‘watch’ the games on ESPN gamecast, which I happened to be doing last night, among other things. When Smooth missed 2 FTs and then shot a 3 point miss, with Hawks up by 1, I figured a loss was coming. Superstar Joe bailed him out again in the clutch.
I like the results but believe a better coach would find some minutes for Acie, so he will be ready when needed. Woody’s doghouse is deep.
Carry on!
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Harry Hawk
December 31st, 2008
12:21 pm
21-10. I don’t know if these guys can get 50, but they’re deep enough (free Acie and Solo, dammit!) to win that many.
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Sautee
December 31st, 2008
12:51 pm
mountain_jim,
I’d have to say that Josh helped in bailing HIMSELF out. After his bad 3 point miss, he hustled down and absolutely SMOTHERED Granger in his next shot attempt.
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O'brien
December 31st, 2008
1:09 pm
Great win for the Hawks last night. And if Devin Harris goes off again, I hope Acie gets a chance to play some D. (We could not stop Jack’s penetration in the 4th quarter last night).
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mountain_jim
December 31st, 2008
3:11 pm
Yes Sautee – that’s why my comments will be few here – I can’t tell that from stupid gamecast observance – did not pay for the Season Pass and the games are all blacked out here in NC.
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Sautee
December 31st, 2008
4:02 pm
mountain_jim,
You can always comment (and hopefully will) on things OTHER than what happened in the games. Keep coming around and jump in the pool with the rest of us.
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Big Ray
December 31st, 2008
4:49 pm
Josh Smith is certainly the easiest guy to pick on, and that trend seems to continue. He scores twenty-four points last night on 7-13 shooting, and goes 10-14 from the line. He put the clamps on Granger in the last minutes of the game (something everyone else failed to do) by going after the guy himself (clearly that was NOT his defensive assignment). Yes, I know he had 5 turnovers.
But all people remember is that he made a bad pass here, or missed a shot there, or something. Why does the guy get blamed for everything that’s not right?
Bibby shoots 5-14 from the field, including 1-6 from 3-point range. Marvin shoots 3-10 from the field. But it’s Josh’s fault that the game was so close.
Unreal.
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mountain_jim
December 31st, 2008
5:13 pm
I only rechecked in via gamecast in last 2 minutes and saw: Atlanta up by 1, Josh misses both FTs, then misses a 3 he should only rarely be shooting anyways. At that point it does look to me like he’s ‘blowing the game’, regardless of what went before or after. So stuff your ‘unreal’. When Joe missed the FT to help lose against Boston I felt that was pretty bad also. You can’t miss those at those times. Josh does not get blamed about everything from me, Mr ‘unreal’.
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Lacsho
December 31st, 2008
5:47 pm
Whatz good Big Homie, keep doing what you doing. I’m feeling this new blog. I’m flying back with the family Saturday night. I’ll be home for two day’s then I have to fly back to Philly for two weeks. I’m recording Saturday’s game, so I get to watch it on the big screen when I get home Saturday night.
**Whatz good Hawks family, I wishing you guys a safe and happy New Year.**
Ray, I agree Bibby and Marvin have changed the game for the Hawks. I like the old jj better than the new JJ. Furthermore I like the JJ that broke some ankles during the playoffs.
Damn Ray cut them some slack on Sekou’s blog ( I see your still killing them)
Yo, when I get home for good in two weeks, I’m going to print up some **Missing have you seen them t-shirts** It’s going to have Acie and Solo’s faces on them.
Peace!!!!!!
Ray, I’ll get atcha Saturday night.
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Big Ray
January 1st, 2009
8:27 pm
Mountain Jim,
I have a very simple rule that I’ve always lived by on a blog: I call your name if I’m addressing you and your comments. So much is lost in translation on a blog as it is. Must we borrow more?
As it stands, I had just come from Sekou’s blog, where people were making comments about Smith being the reason for us having a bunch of close games, and how the last game was no exception. I hadn’t even read your comment when I was typing mine. I hadn’t read the surrounding ones, either. My point was that other guys have missed shots, taken bad shots, turned the ball over, etc. Others have done so with the game on the line. It’s not just Smith. And it’s not him EVERY game. That was my point, not to pick on Mountain Jim and his comments, which I more than welcome on this blog. And if you notice, I didn’t say that people were WRONG, just that they seem to remember what he does wrong, and rarely what he does right (even on a night where his offense was a big help).
Perhaps next time I make a general statement like that, I shall add “all gamecast subscribers excepted.” Just kidding. But you get my drift…
I agree that JJ’s free throw misses hurt in the Boston game. But I feel like that was more of an exception to the average situation. Against Boston, the game will always be tight for us. The average situation comes against other teams, where we often get good leads, then let them dissipate. Then, we’re stuck trying to make all the right plays at the very end of the game, sometimes putting the ball in the hands of those that aren’t the best option.
Another point I was trying to make has to do with design. Why is Josh the only guy open at times like when he took that 3 late in the game? Design. Why aren’t we setting screens to free up the better outside shooters? Design. Why does Josh have to come to the arc to GET the ball, when he should be getting it down low, on the block. You know, the place he scored from all night. The place where he earned 14 trips to the line that night. Design. You play how you practice….right?
Having said that, players are responsible for execution. But I’ve seen this way too often to believe that it’s just the same person screwing things up all the time while everybody else is doing what it takes to win the game. But that’s the impression you get from a lot of people.
But just so we’re CLEAR…I’m not accusing YOU of being one of those people.
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mountain_jim
January 2nd, 2009
9:09 am
Thanks for that clarification and sorry for my assumptions, Big Ray.
I envy you guys that are seeing this great Hawks resurgence season on TV or in person most nights. I could not justify the League Pass expense, with my work being contract based and in question this fall, and after spending on the NFL Ticket to see all the Falcons games (boy that was an excellent investment this year also).
DirecTV does not consider me in Charlotte’s region either, here in WNC, so any games on the sports channels (FSS, etc) are blacked out for me. Sounds like collusion that’s unfair but what do I know. I would like a package where for a lesser dollar amount I could see one team’s games, rather than all teams.
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Big Ray
January 2nd, 2009
2:28 pm
Mountain Jim,
It’s no problem, bro’. I understood where you were coming from. I wish there was better coverage for you, too. I’m likely to believe it’s collusion on the part of cable/satellite companies. Like you, I can’t prove it, but hey….makes you feel better saying it at least!
The Falcons have definitely been worth the investment, whatever money people have spent to see them! The Hawks have too, although the franchise future remains in doubt with an ownership court decision due next month. Who knows, it might not even be over then….but enough trying to find the dark cloud behind the silver lining. Hopefully, things turn out really well.
Lacsho,
How good to hear from you, man! Glad to hear that the job is going well, and you got to spend precious time with your family, too. Definitely get at me tomorrow night. You know I’ll be there.
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Big Ray
January 2nd, 2009
8:29 pm
Whoooeee! 35-21 Hawks midway through the second quarter, and we are ROLLING. Lawrence Frank just got tossed from the game a couple minutes ago, and his high-scoring backcourt isn’t going SQUAT right now. YOUCH!
Early action for the bench (although it’s still the usual suspects), and since I haven’t seen the game from the very beginning, I’m wondering why. Did anybody get injured? Did I miss something? Who knows…What I do know is that Zaza has already played twice the minutes that Horford has. Flip and JSmoove are off to fast starts, and the Nets are having a tough time of it. I’m guessing Woody has Pachulia in the game early to help against the size of Brook Lopez and company. If so, it’s a smart move.
Ah, here’s Horford, back in the game…next to Zaza. This could get interesting…
Uh-oh. Harris is turning on the jets, blowing right past the whole defense out on the break. Bibby just got a tech….
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Big Ray
January 2nd, 2009
8:30 pm
Strange….Horford goes right back out…Smith comes right back in…
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Big Ray
January 2nd, 2009
8:37 pm
Two great passes by Josh Smith down low on consecutive possessions, but no conversion either time. Damn.
Holy! What a steal and then 60 foot heave by Mario West for the 3 to end the first half!!! Surely that’s worth another 60 seconds on the Woody play-o-meter!
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Big Ray
January 2nd, 2009
8:38 pm
Okay, okay, so it was only 38 feet….I got a little excited. I see I’m by myself again. Party poopers…:)
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Sautee
January 2nd, 2009
8:46 pm
Mario is probably hoping it won’t mean the same thing it did to Solo.
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Sautee
January 2nd, 2009
8:48 pm
Hey Ray,
Did it seem like we were playing THAT kind of defense to you?
I was thinking that NJ was helping us a LOT with unforced errors, but we ARE being aggressive and that sometimes make folks get in a hurry.
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Big Ray
January 2nd, 2009
9:28 pm
Sautee,
No, the defense isn’t that good, as the third quarter is clearly showing us. Caught up to us, it did. The Nets are shooting rather well, and we aren’t clamping down on them. Perhaps we bought into thinking that New Jersey’s struggles was a direct result of our defense. Not so…
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Big Ray
January 2nd, 2009
9:32 pm
Bibby is keeping us in the game.
Man….Devin Harris is scary quick. And they are hitting that corner three all night.
Why oh why does the ball roll around to Smith for the 3? WHY??? And why is he TAKING IT??
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Big Ray
January 2nd, 2009
10:06 pm
Again with the play where Josh comes out to the perimeter, receives the ball, and takes the 3. This is a PLAY! Why is it a play?! ARgh! Maybe one day he starts hiting that shot, but I’d much rather see him develop a midrange jumper like Marvin had…then he can move out to the arc when he gets it down.
JJ going for it all towards the end of the 4th wasn’t pretty. I think the play we SHOULD have run would’ve looked like this: Joe draws one or two defenders, then one of our guys goes up and sets a screen on Bibby’s man, freeing Bibby up for an open jumper.
Here we are, down by three and scrambling on defense like we don’t know what we’re doing. We can talk all day about missed free throws (Horford), missed 3s and turnovers (Josh), missed shots in general (JJ), and so on. But two things are beating us: an embarassing rebounding differential, and even more embarassing defensive effort. Starting in the 3rd quarter, the Nets have had free looks from the perimeter. And it hasn’t stopped.
If we lose, that’s how it happened.
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Big Ray
January 2nd, 2009
10:08 pm
WOW. A great defensive effort on Devin Harris by Smith and Mo, followed up by a great run downcourt by both guys, with Smith converting on the layup that gave us a slim 1 point lead.
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Hawks Fan In New Orleans
January 2nd, 2009
10:15 pm
I am not believ this!!! I was following the game on espn gamecast and swore we won the game – what happened where was the D on Vince Carter???
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Hawks Fan In New Orleans
January 2nd, 2009
10:19 pm
I meant ‘believe’
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Big Ray
January 2nd, 2009
10:22 pm
Blew that one….
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Astro Joe
January 2nd, 2009
10:58 pm
Joe still has a tendency to try and be the hero, even when his teammates are the ones getting things done. It’s almost as if he says “okay, time for me to take over” instead of maintaining the growing momentum by playing within the flow.
And the love him or hate him Smith showed his ying and yang again tonight. Another player who can get caught up in gaining hero status. One step forward… one step backward. Tremendous athletic play gives way to mental meltdown.
The best part of tonight’s game (IMHO) was how well Woody coached the game. I thought that he did a great job of protecting JJ after he picked up his fifth foul. Dude probably played close to 10 minutes of court-time with 5 fouls. Woody did a nice job of having Marvin pick up Devin, Smith on Vince and used Evans during late game offense/defense possessions. And having Solo come in to guard the inbounds pass was terrific. I watched NJ beat Toronto (I think) a few weeks ago when Simmons threw a perfect lob to Vince for an easy dunk to win an OT game (I’m pretty sure that there were less than 2 seconds on the game clock). Woody forced NJ to run a different play (although Vince still had a good look at the goal when he missed the shot at the end of regulation)… but it’s always better to force a 20 footer than allow a dunk.
Hawks face a great test tomorrow night against Houston. Do they bounce back and continue to defend their home court or do they wallow in self-pity (or worse point fingers to everyone who was culpable for the loss) and create a 2 game losing streak?
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HB Ando
January 2nd, 2009
11:56 pm
To simplify tonight’s outcome, posted on New Years’ Eve:
“Then there is the Nets. Ray mentioned their back court, rightfully. But it’s the complement of young big men that make them potentially dangerous by the time the playoffs roll around. I don’t think it was a fluke that they beat the Hawks in that home-and-home, earlier this season. I think they’re the 5-8 seed that no one in the East will want to play in the first round (this season’s Hawks?).”
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Big Ray
January 3rd, 2009
10:53 pm
There are times that I wish I had sprung for the NBA League Pass. Times like tonight. Josh nearly gets 30, and Bibby hits the game winner. And all most of us get to do is stare at a box score.
Mountain Jim,
I think we all felt your pain tonight…
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rms
January 4th, 2009
12:44 am
Hey ray, theres always Sportscenter Top Ten Plays!!!!
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Big Ray
January 4th, 2009
11:33 am
RMS,
Yeah, you got a point there! New blog should be up sometime soon guys…
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Big Ray
January 4th, 2009
11:37 am
Hawks Fan in New Orleans,
You’re about two or three blogs behind, bro’. Fast forward to “Two out of Three” and you’ll be up to speed. A new blog is coming out this afternoon, though.
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doc
January 5th, 2009
12:55 am
i think he is more of a student of the game than most give him credit for. it is because of his innate abilities that he plays it at a very rarified level and is either death defying when it works or stupid when it doesnt work. what seems impossible to ordinary folks he seems to take as mundane so we will have to deal with the mercurial aspect of this hero as he learns to control his powers, i think the injury has allowed him to begin to manifest this sooner. it reminds me of the character in the movie that will smith played this summer. oh it was fun to see j smash last night.
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MannyT
January 5th, 2009
2:17 am
The current mix of this team requires Smith to do more inside than on the perimeter. However, his best long term options would be to develop that outside shot at some point down the road. He doesn’t have to be a great, shooter, but good enough to make a pump fake on a jump shot slow down the defense.
Now I didn’t see that movie to which the good doc refers, but I caught a minute of it on cable. Not sure the ending worked out well for W Smith. Hopefully J Smith as a better ending.
BWAF
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Najeh Davenpoop
January 5th, 2009
2:19 am
Whether he is getting it or not, even if Josh Smith doesn’t ever improve for the rest of his career his positives still far outweigh his negatives in my opinion.
I still think if the Hawks’ offensive system had more clearly defined roles for each player his turnovers and ill-advised shots wouldn’t happen so much. Woody still hasn’t decided whether he’s a do-it-all swingman, a post playing big man, some combination of the two or something totally different. Clearly Josh has a lot of skills that are each usually found in very different kinds of players, and the coaching staff hasn’t quite figured out how to deploy him in a way that gets the most out of his skills. I do think they are making progress in that area though, which is also why we are seeing him “get it”.
If he could develop a reliable mid-range shot and a go-to post move, he would really be unstoppable. In both those areas he has improved but he’s still a work in progress. As far as his problems with turnovers on the fast break, it would be nice if a) he was more willing to give the ball up to one of the guards early on the break, and b) the guards were able to keep up with his speed as he runs down the court.
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Najeh Davenpoop
January 5th, 2009
2:20 am
Wow, nice to see a blog where posts show up immediately after you hit “submit”… wonder why they can’t apply this new-fangled technology to all the other blogs too?
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G Money
January 5th, 2009
7:45 am
It always shocks me how much ink JSmoove gets compared to the other Hawks players. It is so obvious that Smoove’s game and his approach to the game far surpass where he was this time last year. Pre-injury Smoove was in some ways better than post-injury Smoove – but wouldn’t you expect that? Without him on Saturday night, the Hawks were doomed.
The real conversation should be about Joe Johnson and what he does/doesn’t bring to the party every night. While brilliant one-on-one offensively, his defense is sometimes lacking; his shot selection can be questionable; and he seems at times moody, self-absorbed, and disconnected from his teammates. We all see Woody publicly casitgating Smoove but never a word for JJ. Smoove isn’t 19 anymore. It’s time for a more mature approach to a more mature player.
The reality is that what makes us all sometimes cringe, isn’t always about the play of Josh Smith. Josh’s desire and athletic abilities are evident the minute he walks on the court. You can see that he wants to be a leader even though this is and should be JJ’s team. However, the examples of leadership that he has to follow, whether they be Woody or JJ, are clearly works in progress as well. While Pfund works with both Woody and JJ on this skill set, he would be wise to spend time with Smoove also.
If there is one area of his game that needs work, it’s his handles. Josh has to work on his dribbling in order to capitalize on his explosive first step to the basket. Too many times he starts his move to the basket or attempting to get out and lead a break; he dribbles the ball off of his left leg or foot. The ball also makes for an easy target for steals and disruptions because he dribbles it so far away from his body. He fixes the handles and continues to be a student of the game, he’s golden.
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Big Ray
January 5th, 2009
10:52 am
GREAT comments, guys. Really good stuff. Keep it coming.
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Matt = niremetal
January 5th, 2009
11:32 am
I don’t see Josh’s outside shot greatly improving during his career. He should spend his time focusing on his low post skills and ballhandling (so that he’s more dangerous driving to the hole). J-Smoove only becomes J-Smash when he gets to the rim. Outside 12 feet, he’s actually among the least smooth/smoove forwards in the league.
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fudd21
January 5th, 2009
12:23 pm
Matt, I have to agree with you on that one. I think with his speed and athleticism if he just concentrated on his low post game and drives to the basket he would be very hard to contain. There are many 4’s that could stay in front of Josh if he attempted to go to the hole. Even when he is wide open on the perimeter. With his outstanding leaping ability Josh is never more than 2 dribbles and 2 steps away from getting to the rim. Stop trying to show that you can be effective outside shooter and do what you do best. Heck the good doctor couldn’t shoot a lick from the outside but that didn’t stop him from being of the best of all time. Go to the hole young fella!
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The Hawksta
January 5th, 2009
1:31 pm
Great comments fellas! I concur wholeheartedly with Gmoney. JJ does look moody out there. It’s as if he’s going through something at home? Hate to speculate like that but I have yet to see him smile this year. Is that his game face? I don’t know but it’s kind of discouraging as a fan because you like to be able to get a read on your team. Even Nique was shock to see Joe dunk the other day. Do a shimmy shake or something Joe. You’d be amazed at how the team follows your swagger. Better yet get a tech when the opposing team fouls you for the 5th time dang! Love ya Joe, but the better you get the more we depend on ya! Believe that! Great post Ray!
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Freshmaker
January 5th, 2009
2:04 pm
Josh still seems to be working his way back physically, in my opinion. He’s obviously healthy enough to be out there, but he hasn’t quite gotten his explosiveness back yet. Maybe he still needs to build up some strength in his legs. Nice to see him have that kind of day offensively. All I can say is…wow. All 5 of our starters are capable of putting up 20 on any given night – that’s tough for opposing defenses. We’ve got some real weapons now. And how about Joe with 14 dimes the other night? Dude’s averaging 22/6/5. Incredible. If he keeps this up he’s going to make a run at MVP. Great to see the Hawks come right back after the tough loss at NJ as well. Frustrating to see them blow a 20 point lead, but at least they got over it quickly.
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KevinA
January 5th, 2009
2:15 pm
The Hawks don’t seem to play with the same energy in the first quarter and when they get leads. Their lock down defense is exellent in the 4th quarter or when their behind. I would like to see the bench much earlier in the first quarter including minutes for Law and Solo. Playing 10 throughout the first half would set up for fresher legs in the 4th quarter. Imposing our will through defense will determine how far the Hawks will go. Gotta have fresh legs to play 48 min.
JJ and Bibby are getting better at finding the big men in a position they can score or pass. The increased scoring of Smooth is a result. Smooth is not a post up player and may never be. He is exellent reciving and scoreing in motion. Watching Smooth attack the hoop after a well deliverd pass and ZaZa and Big Al crashing the glass is a thing of beauity. With Smooth we will just have to live with a few turn overs. He more than makes up for them with his blocked shots and steals. Have you noticed our assist totals? In theory 20 assists is a bench mark for an unselfish team. When the Hawks are “cooking with bacon fat” their totals are closer to 30. I have never critized JJ in a blog, but as the Hawks mature I would love to see his assist totals go up and the number of his shots go down.
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LTLT
January 5th, 2009
6:27 pm
I got to disagree. I’m not impressed by what Smith has done lately at all. How can a starting PF in the estern conference avg 5.3 rpg in 6 games. Are you kidding me? His ability to block shot has disapeared, and his defense, even though it was never great, it’s worse now that he’s not 100%. He still keeps taking long jump shots, which I still don’t get. Then, Woodson tried to isolate him down in the post, and guess what, we had a turnover machine right there. Smith has talent, do not get me wrong, what he doesn’t have is the hunility to understand that there’s things you do to help your team win and others you just got to stop doing if you do not wantto hurt your team. Every time he touches the ball, it’s like I’m about to have a heart attack…
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twenty and ten always wins
January 5th, 2009
6:55 pm
Josh has great skills. He needs to let the ego go! If he could get the ball at the top of the key every other play I’m sure he could be a dunk and dish (18pts/10rbs) type player which is always good. But he needs to learn this…when you get older the vertical isn’t always going to be there. He must attain better ball handling, and a mid-range jumper. Plus, let the gaurds and swingman gaurd/forwards shoot the 3’s man!!! It pains me to have to watch Josh shoot anything outside 15 feet in a close game. I know Josh hates Woody telling him anything, but he needs to listen to the fans here, you’ll be a better player by bulking up, working on the mid-range jumper and using your athleticsm to create better shots for your team-mates. Not to mention the work he does on the glass and blocking shots already makes him a great defensive player. If he isn’t willing to do whats best for the team, then he needs to go! Ask Ben Gordon…he has had the same problems in Chicago, he wont adapt to what the Bulls need him to do. He’s on his way outta there. Maybe Josh would do better as a 6th man? That way he gets his shots and we get a real power forward or center for that matter.
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big B
January 5th, 2009
6:59 pm
I agree 100% with LTLT when is this guy going to listen to his coaches, he is a basket head who is not going to improve or listen to his coaching staff. I was his biggest fan until the end of last season, but all the turnoves, all the outside shots and all the careless passes has to stop, he needs to listen to his coach if he is going to get better, i mean after waiting 5 years and 58 million dollars the guy still doesn’t get it and hawks fans are just tired of waiting for him to change, he is not going to change, i hope for the sake of the fans this guy is going to listen to his coaching staff asap.
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elmer fudd
January 5th, 2009
7:21 pm
Enter your comments here
When the knicks get james you guys will be toast.
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The Hawksta
January 5th, 2009
7:55 pm
Listen fellas damn! Josh Smith became Josh Smith of the NBA because of his game! Not for what you think his game should be! All he needs is a Hakem the Dream shake and bake fadeaway and a two dribble fake and he will be a hall of famer! Stop with all the other stuff. He’s working with the Dream in the off season and one day it will pay off. I only seen him use the shake and bake fadeaway one time in the game. Hell he looked more shocked then me that he tried it(lol)! Woody has changed his tactics when it comes to Josh because I don’t see the venom any more when Josh comes off the court. Chill, I see a new horizon. He’s a competitor who will make you eat your words! Ray once again… Great post! You or Ando need to analyze and challenge JJ. He needs it!
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RA
January 5th, 2009
8:01 pm
Okay, here’s the thing, I think that the worse thing that Josh Smith can do is take a three pointer, and hit it. Because at that point, he becomes, in his mind, a three point shooter, and while he’s not a terrible three point shooter, it so let’s other teams off the hook when he settles out there. What I think, for what it’s worth, is that Josh Smith needs to develop his inbetween game. If he could drive, stop on a dime and shoot a 10 to 15 foot jump shot with accuracy, there isn’t a defender in the league that could stay with him. That was the shot that took Jordan from being athletic to being great. But his defense is what makes him so valuable. For every time he turns the ball over, he changes three or four shots by virtue of just being in the game. He’ll never get defensive player of the year, until Kevin Garnette retires (God let it be sooner than later), but that’s where his game is.
Oh and Elmer Fudd, if indeed that is your real name, we toasted King James the last time Cleveland was in town as I recall, and they have a much better supporting cast than New York, but then again New York did beat Boston… I guess according to Kevin Garnette the Celtics and the Nicks have a rivalry now. I think the Celts are one of the few teams in Basketball with a rivalry against the Nicks… Go figure.
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jhan
January 5th, 2009
8:05 pm
Sign me up for jsmash!
I took my father (not a person who follows the NBA at all) to the OKC game & his comment about Josh was, “The guy looks like he’s trying to do things beyond his abilities.”
I’ve made the Brett Favre analogy before – He brings you to your feet multiple times during a game. 1/2 you scream for joy, the other 1/2 you scream WTF!!!
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Sautee
January 5th, 2009
8:09 pm
big B,
How do you know he’s not listening to his coaches? Are you there with them at practice? Who do you think draws up the plays, the players? If Josh is stationed at the 3 point line, it’s because that’s the DESIGN of the coaches. If THEY have that kind of faith in him, you’d think that his “biggest fan until the end of last season” could also.
Do you KNOW that he’s a basket head? Do any of you know Josh personally?
LTLT,
You DO know that he’s not yet 100% right?
His rebounding totals will rise throughout the season as his ankle improves. If you’ve watched then you know that it’s certainly not for lack of effort. In fact, he should be lauded for struggling along for the last 10 games or so, giving what he could to help the team. That’s CERTAINLY NOT selfish.
And yet because he makes some dumb mistakes, you’ll throw him under the bus.
twenty and ten,
How do you know that Josh hates Woody telling him anything? Both Josh AND Woody have called this story a lie and say they have totally patched up any differences. Did you know that? Or do you know either of them personally?
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hawkfan
January 5th, 2009
8:21 pm
something interesting I found, an interview with acie law, http://layupdrill.com/2009/01/acie-law-interview/
something interesting:
LayupDrill.com: How is it playing alongside a veteran like Mike Bibby?
Acie: Its great. He’s a cool dude and since the first day he’s gotten here he’s taken me under his wing and taught me so much. Having him here is better preparing me for when its my time to take over the team.
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Da Real Real
January 5th, 2009
8:59 pm
I’ve always said that I believe Smoove have a better post game than even he himself realizes. Both he and Horford have good hook shots. You see Horford using his far more than Smoove, but one thing to realize is that Smoove is rarely positioned in the post. Somebody has already said something about Woody not really having defined roles in the offense. At times we’re seeing Josh just hanging around the perimeter for some odd reason when he is probably the best rebounder we have on the team you’d figure that he would stay in the post more.
I also agree that he has to at least develop a mid-range jumper at least. If only he had Horford’s mid range jumper. Add that plus a hook shot, and rarely that quick spin move he uses for a finger roll to the basket and he would be as dangerous in the post on the offensive end as he is on the defensive end.
As far as JJ goes….I actually like this new JJ – the one that is playing with a bit of anger…like an assasin or something. I want to see Joe drive to the hole more and throw it down like he did the other night. I think we’re finally starting to see JJ a little angry about the no show of respect that he gets from around the league. He’s starting to let the refs know a bit more nowadays about the no calls. I don’t believe there is an off court issue with Joe. I still see him joking around with the guys like last year, it’s just that he’s starting to show a little bit more emotion now while playing the game and he’s also starting to use it which I think makes him as dangerous as other super stars around the league.
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MannyT
January 5th, 2009
10:45 pm
Da Real Real
I think that JJ swagger came from hanging around Mike Bibby. Josh & Mike seem to play with a chip on their shoulders. Because Josh was younger, it did not come off the same way as it does with Bibby. That is the intangible that I like best about Bibby. You might be a little faster and stronger than he is, but he has the confidence that makes you think he will find a way to make a difference.
jhan
Isn’t that the fan value of Josh (& Brett Favre.) You don’t know what you will get out of them, but it will be exciting. Almost NASCAR-like. It is a daring pass or a fantastic wreck. Either way, you pay attention when they play because you know something interesting will happen…good or bad.
BWAF
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Mike is back
January 5th, 2009
11:22 pm
I think working on his handle would provide an immediate impact on his game, it could potentially eliminate 50% of his turnovers. He has the quickest explosion to rack on the squad except for Acie. With improved ball handling Smoove will be unstoppable going to the rack.
I agree with Doc, I think Smoove will always drive us crazy because of his pageant for the spectacular play. He definitely has a flair for the dramatic. That’s why they call him the highlight reel, and that what makes him special…he is not afraid to try, and he not afraid to fell. Plus he atones for his mistake by hustling his Assss Offffffff!!!!
He can be an Enigma on one play and a Super Heroe on the next. One thing for sure, I’m glad he is still an Atlanta Hawks. I think more than anything Smoove is benefiting from the new commitment by the Hawks to get the ball in the post.
I would also like to see to Smoove add some more bulk to his frame for the rigors of banging in the post.
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jhan
January 6th, 2009
12:25 am
Manny T,
I would much rather watch a game when Josh is playing. The guy does incredible things every time he plays.
I’m glad he’s ours for the next 5 years.
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HB Ando
January 6th, 2009
1:01 am
Maybe it’s my contrarian nature, but I find myself at contretemps with many of the comments here. Lacking a more refined way to approach it, I’m going to just start at the top, and speak my mind:
doc, the idea that Josh is “more of a student of the game” directly contradicts the statement his “innate abilities” lead to his “very rarified level” of play. He’s a savant, pure and simple. Instincts and athleticism are the antithesis of floor analysis. His defensive stats are the byproduct of the former, not the latter.
Najeh, yes. A low-post game, and a consistent outside shot make Smith a Hall-of-Famer. But if he doesn’t develop those things, he’s still incredibly valuable, not unlike either Marion or AK47, neither of whom have ever improved in their similar areas of limitation. He’s just now at the age that Jermaine O’Neal first became a force. The fact that the team (read: Woody) continues to pass him the ball out on the perimeter, despite his ongoing limitations from that distance, is not his fault. And it is positive that he’s continued to limit his attempts from that range, over the last 12 months (starting about 15 games into last season). As far as giving the ball up on the break, Smith continues to accumulate assists at a rate that exceeds most PF’s in the league, highlighting a natural court vision. We hope that decision making improves with age, but it never really did with guys like Antoine Walker, despite his solid assist numbers.
G Money: how much better, realistically, can the handle of a 6′9, 240 lb forward become? I have no reason to believe he hasn’t been working on it every time he takes the floor. From what I’m hearing, collectively here, Smoove should develop the low-post game of Amare, the long-range touch of Michael Redd, and the handle of Magic (since we’re talking about 6′9).
I would say that we should expect subtle improvements in all areas of his game, given his age. But we’re not be realistic, or fair to Josh Smith, if we’re seriously expecting him to develop an unstoppable low-post game, a JJ-esque outside shot, and guard-like handle. I mean if he did everything you guys want, would he be, essentially, Lebron James?
And speaking of JJ, how can anybody seriously critique his production, and value, for this team? So he doesn’t talk trash, or do funky dances. Used to be that his type of style was the definition of a pro’s pro.
If it wasn’t for his combination of scoring and play-making ability, Mike Bibby wouldn’t be having a career-resurrecting season (well, that and the not-surprising fact that it’s a contract year).
How does anyone find fault with a guy that’s (as Manny pointed out) leading the league in minutes, averaging 23 ppg, 6 dimes and 5 boards, while his team has the best franchise record in over a decade? Over the last five games JJ is averaging 8.6 (8.6!!!!) dimes a game! From the TWO!!!!!!!
Shimmy shake? Really?
Da Real Real: Gotta disagree, though I think I understand what you’re saying. Watching Josh try and score on the block is painful. And knowing how athletic he is, and how long he is, it jumps out at you that, surely, he’s got more low-post game than he’s showing. But, so far, not so much. I can’t explain, or even understand, how he hasn’t been able to develop a couple of go-to moves down there. But game after game, it’s pretty clear he hasn’t. I honestly cannot figure out how he still lacks a Al Harrington/ Rasheed Wallace/”insert name of any solid big man in the league” turn-and-fade. And maybe I’m putting the cart before the horse, since that shot is a little more challenging than a drop-step, jump hook.
But, again, given his X-factor status, for this team, both on defense, and in transition, I think we’re still splitting hairs on a 22-23 year old.
Finally, Mike is Back: you want Josh to improve his handle, AND add bulk to his 6′9, 240 lb frame. Make up your mind, bro. He can’t, simultaneously, become Karl Malone AND Magic Johnson (pre-AIDS).
I think folks (or more likely, Josh and the Hawks) are going to have to pick a point of emphasis for his improvement. He either needs to become a versatile forward, with an emerging low-post game, or a versatile forward with a dangerously consistent outside stroke. Combined with is other-worldly athleticism, either one would transcend him to the level of superstar. But expecting both is unrealistic and unfair.
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Ariose
January 6th, 2009
1:59 am
First of all, Congratz on the new spot Ray and Ando.
Now I know smoove works hardand although I too hold my breath when he takes a shot. It’s not because I don’t want him shooting it. It is because I want him to prove the doubters wrong. He was won his fair share of games with his outside shot in the waining minutes of a game on a number of occasions. Sometimes he’d done it early, like when Cleveland came to town and his shot was on early.
Like Doris Burke of ESPN said during last seasons playoff series’: “Once he develops his jump shot a little more, forget about it! He won’t be stopped.”
I personally have no problem with him shooting them. You cannot succeed without failure, and Smoove is one heck of a ball player. Once Mark Price has him for a whole off-season up at his shoting clinic at the Suwanee Sports Academy we’ll all be witneses lol.
Smoves post-Game needssome polishing up though. But we’re all just being nit picky. Smoove is a Force I know he will continue to improve his game, but i’m certainly not dissatisfied with his current skill level.
*~Sir Links A Lot~*
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G Money
January 6th, 2009
8:39 am
Ariose,
You’re right about being nit-picky. Again, as I said before, if we were as nit-picky about everyone else’s game, we’d find a lot more to nit-pick about.
Ando,
I agree with you that we can’t have everything (maybe). I myself feel that Josh wants to have a game that is more suited to be like that of Magic. He finds himself with the rebound or steal and wants to lead the break (instead of passing); he likes finding the open man; and while he fails miserably sometimes, tries to make the almost impossible pass inside. He doesn’t seem to relish banging inside although he does when necessary rather preferring to linger a bit outside the 7-8 foot mark and use his quickness to get to the ball/space/defensive spot. That’s just what I see from my seat.
As for bulking up, I’m not seeing that for a few years (as it comes naturally). Tomorrow will be interesting…let’s see…Rashard Lewis. oh yes, 6-10 and averages 20 pts and 6 boards with a salary of $16K annually. I’ll take JSmoove/Smash for $10K annually, 15pts and 7 boards a game (and top ten in bpg once he plays enough games).
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JM
January 6th, 2009
10:01 am
G Money, you are on point with Smoove wanting to be more of a Magic type player than a banging PF. Which leads to what many on SS blog have been saying since last year. If and when the Hawks get a legit center, Josh would be better suit for the 3 with Al at the 4. Therefore, he should continue to work on the shot and ball handling and add a couple post moves for gravy.
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fudd21
January 6th, 2009
1:13 pm
Ariose, well let him shoot them once he has spent that summer with Price. I personally don’t believe Josh will ever be a consistent shooter whether it be from mid-range or deep. Which leads me to be against him sliding over to the 3 unless a shooting center is brought in. (Yes I know that has been beaten to death, sorry)
The handles, yes everyone probably could improve their handles. But Josh needs to realize that he doesn’t have to cross-over, go behind the back, spin or any of that to get to the hole. He can simple beat other 4’s with his quick first step and go straight to the hole.
The stop on the dime pull up jumper. His shot is too long for that. If you notice Josh has like a wind up to his shot. You can’t do that when you’re trying to stop on a dime and elevate. His shot would have to be totally revamped for that.
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one66soul
January 6th, 2009
2:36 pm
If he wants longevity in this league, he better become a dominate post player with a decent 12-15 ft jumper. Once the hops go away along with the speed we are looking at a low budget chris webber on his last leg.
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Darrin "The Vent King"
January 6th, 2009
2:37 pm
Enter your comments here
As much as I like JSmoove’s game, you’re dead on about him needing to improve his post-game and for all the applause about Marvin Williams; he needs to do the same. I still see Marvin trucking over people down-low drawing numerous charging fouls with some of the worst foot work I’ve ever seen down low. Neither of these guys seem to have any rhythm or any reliable consistent post moves in this regard. True, Marvin has improved other aspects of his game and he and Smoove’s effort is always there, but for this team to take it to the next level they need to improve their post game moves/footwork or get a guy that can do that. I think they’re still young and can improve over time, but right now they are not there. Having said that, I hope they do. As far as the backcourt, I do not believe Bibby gets enough credit for the affect he has had on this team. When you think of all those dreadful years of finishing dead last, it was the point guard position that was THE worst and that’s saying a lot for this team where holes were everywhere. Now we have a legit point and look where this team has gone since- a incredibly exciting playoff berth and this year a better than usual record this far into the season where at least we are beating teams we are supposed to and putting fear in others. Joe Johnson on the other hand is who is – a guy that carries this team more than a lot of guards in the league carries their teams more often than not. I’m not seeing the moodiness and detachment that another blog claims, just a guy with a overly quiet personality and guys like that always get accused of such things. His personality aside, where would this team be without him? As the season goes on we’ll see what these guys are all made of together when it counts and then we’ll also see if Woody is the guy to lead them. Something I’m still, despite the record, skeptical of. Hopefully he’ll prove me wrong cause sometimes I don’t believe he he is.
And btw, what is up with Speedy Claxton? I last heard him having a hamstring injury in the pre-season and he hasn’t played ONE time since. Did his hamstring explode or what? Gheesh! I’m tired of seeing this guy in business suits every freaking game collecting checks and doing nothing for us…
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Rono
January 6th, 2009
3:36 pm
Good posts most everyone. Josh is growing up and it will all come together by the end of the season – just in time for the playoffs. I just have a question about Randolph Morris. Is he still on the team? Is is hurt? Why has he not gotten more playing time. I have noticed Kwame Brown has been improving quite a bit with the time he’s getting in Detroit. IF Morris is not going to contribute, what’s the chance of us getting one of the big men from OK or Memphis during the season? Or, are we good enough the way we are now?
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HOMEGROWN aka E.J.
January 6th, 2009
3:55 pm
I agree with most of what I am reading here. I think that he still needs an inside game. The jump hook or baseline move would mix everything up and give him time to develope the mid-range jumper. He makes me think of MV7 in that he can make the play that makes you say “damn” but is still unpolished in other areas. I think that you need that “wow” factor on your team; it brings excitment from the crowd, fear from the opposing team. I think it is that “what’s next?” factor that keeps teams/coaches guessing. If you can keep that and add a consistant jumper then you have a mature JSMOOTH/SMASH. “Wow”.
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doc
January 6th, 2009
4:11 pm
gee, what a concept, ando speaking his mind.
i think the josh intuitive mind will continue to grow as he sees the court differently. whether you admit it or not the team is playing team d. somehow it means josh is learning to stay home more and play his position. he is educable even if it is at a different level. josh has a brain not sure mv7 did. HG that is where the comparison ends.
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doc
January 6th, 2009
4:14 pm
ando, hasnt josh been doing something more than working on his innate game the last two summers? book it, he will be a complete player when he leaves the game. his numbers will be among the elite if his body holds up.
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jhan
January 6th, 2009
6:01 pm
According to Rick Sund you will not see Speedy play any games this year. His season is over & they will be collecting insurance money.
doc, I’ll look you up tomorrow night at halftime.
Crush those Magic!!
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The Hawksta
January 6th, 2009
11:10 pm
Ok Ando,
Maybe the shimmy is asking to much. I wasn’t serious. However, what was important in my last post was that fact that he really needs to be more demonstrative! To us there is no mistaking JJ’s abilities. However, if I’m a ref, the beauty of your moves don’t always garner my respect. You have to make me believe you are the best there is on the court. Speak to me! Tell how good your are. Make me love and envy your game. I’m a ref buddy(not really)! I make judgement calls. Sometimes you have to TESTIFY! Show me your swagger! Get my addrenaline flowing. Make me go home and watch the tape baby! If you think these things don’t matter in a game then maybe you are not paying enough attention to the psychological side of it all! Now if you don’t like the shimmy, maybe it don’t work with you. Maybe you’d be the ref that I would pat on the azz or something? Let me say this… You can be the showman and have the skill or you can just have the skill and hope to get recognized? But when I look in your eyes, I better see the answer I’m looking for or you ain’t gettin the call! Hate me… I’m the REF!!!
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BA
January 7th, 2009
4:47 am
Before I even read the rest of this, nice article Ray. To answer the question- Smith is definitely going to get better (and smarter)with age.
Another underrated thing with Smith- he takes a freakin charge better than anybody on the team. With this kid- it’s absolutely worth the turnovers.
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BA
January 7th, 2009
5:05 am
I’m with ‘ole HB on Johnson and the refs- it’s chemistry. Bibby and Smith, for example, are demonstrative enough (in concert with BWAF Woodson) for the whole team. I’ll take my do-it-all star with an old school attitude anyday. Who doesn’t get tired of seeing the Bean or Garnett barking endlessly at the officials, for hours on end?
If JJ takes it in the lane early and often like he has for the last month, come playoff time the foul calls will be there, pouting for them or not.
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Jed
January 7th, 2009
7:56 am
Josh is clearly in a lot of pain. He may not be back to full strength this entire year, because he DOES resemble Joe in one trait: he will give his all. I agree with G Money that he is still growing as a player, and that we haven’t seen the best of him yet, because he’s not only still refining his tools, but he is also still learning to balance his head and his heart. The kid ADMITS sometimes his passion overrules his judgement. There are some 40 year olds who can’t see their own weakenesses, so I’m just gonna watch him & enjoy his growth. Do you recall another young phenom about 10 or 12 years ago who struggled with the game but has managed to hang onto his passion? He gives Josh fits every time we play them? Used to play for Minnesota. Now for Beantown. Whaddya think?
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Sautee
January 7th, 2009
10:33 am
Ando,
About this (posted to doc about Josh):He’s a savant, pure and simple. Instincts and athleticism are the antithesis of floor analysis. His defensive stats are the byproduct of the former, not the latter.
I don’t think that the two things are mutually exclusive. For example, if Josh remembers that someone used an up-and-under move on him, then he’s less likely to quickly leave his feet. That remembrance would support doc’s “student of the game” stance. Of course much of defense is pure reaction and on that point I understand your position. But there’s room for learning within that reaction. I don’t think Josh will ever be considered cerebral, but I DO think he’s catching on to nuances (when to leave his man to block, when to stay). If you’ve noticed, he’s drawing a LOT more charges these days. That, to me, indicates a certain awareness on defense that he didn’t have in earlier years. Yes, he’s got phenomenal skills, but he’s THINKING better on defense. Or at least that’s the way it looks from here.
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MannyT
January 7th, 2009
2:13 pm
doc & Sautee.
Very good points about Josh. He does have more basketball smarts than most people believe. He also has that emotional side that sometimes takes over…and turns on his thoughtful side. In the long run, that combination will serve him very well.
Usually a player gets the cerebral tag when his brain clearly outdoes his physical abilities. Unfortunately, they can get tagged as less bright if they have really great physical attributes like Josh. The reality is in between.
If you are short, slow or don’t jump much and keep a pro job, you get credit for your smarts. Look at Barkley (the player). I don’t think he got his due for basketball intellect, because he was dominant in many ways. People forget he played as a dominant PF and was about the same height as Mario West. It wasn’t all about strength–he understood the game better than most.
We need to beat the Magic tonight. It shows that we are a thorn in their side (like NJ is to us.)
BWAF
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Sautee
January 7th, 2009
2:54 pm
Manny T,
Excellent about Barkley, and oh so true about the assumption of a lack of intellect in physically gifted players.
By the way, on Sekou’s blog, someone (Hawksta?) gave me credit for an explanation of BWAF and had me saying “Bald with Arms folded”. That was incorrect, though, and not what I said.
I have always known what the acronym was, since I was around for the original WAF, well before the BWAF. Small matter Manny, but I wanted you to know that I still have MOST of my marbles.
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G Money
January 7th, 2009
3:19 pm
Sautee,
He is thinking better/playing better. He IS a student of the game. Why else would he have The Dream working with him. I think we all agree on that one. One of the things that I sometimes wonder about is who is helping him think through things. Is it Woody? Tyrone Hill?
I have a concern about our coaching staff and player development. I haven’t seen this in any of the years that Woody has been here (nor did I see it prior either). When you think about the big guys (Williams, Smoove, ZaZa, or Morris) – I am not sure that Hill can teach them what they really need to know to make more than incremental change. Perhaps we shouldn’t expect any change during the season. However, over 82 games I would expect not to see some of the same errors that I saw at the beginning of the season.
So while we discuss Josh, I think it is important to talk about how our players are assisted in their player development.
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The Hawksta
January 7th, 2009
3:39 pm
Not me Sautee! That was Homegrown. I think he has it confused. I corrected him. He mentioned you as the one who told him.
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Sautee
January 7th, 2009
4:35 pm
Sorry, Hawksta. I put a ? cause I’m too lazy to go back and look myself.
I didn’t remember ’cause I’ve explained that one (BWAF) to others in the past.
G Money,
I’d love to know that, too. Good question for Sekou.
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richbrave
January 7th, 2009
7:01 pm
doc:
I posted you up about JAVARIS CRITTENTON on SEKOU’s last blog before the current one with some updated stats. Do you want to continue to get info?
ray:
How’s it going blogster numero uno? I’ve moved over to the WIZARDS and REDSKINS blogs. It ain’t the same baby, it ain’t the same. My second cousin is back on the sports beat for the NEWS and OBSERVER in RALEIGH. He asked for my experiences here and comparatives elsewhere. I e-mailed him an epic. Lots of love for the AJC and the folks who run the blogs here for all venues that I follow. You guys are the greatest.
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Big Ray
January 7th, 2009
10:58 pm
Guys,
Thanks for all of the replies and the compliments. There has been some great comments on this blog. There will be a new one up in a few minutes…
RichBrave,
It’s good to hear from you. Things are going well. Now you KNEW the Wiz blogs couldn’t hold a candle to Sekou’s joint, my man! What’s wrong with ya? Just kidding. Stay with the home team, I understand. Just don’t forget your pals down south. Peace.
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Big Ray
January 7th, 2009
11:00 pm
Okay, that’s just STRANGE. All I wanted was apostrophes at the beginning of my words. Had no idea they’d look that crazy on the face of the page, at least until you actually click on the blog topic itself. I have got to get used to this…
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doc
January 7th, 2009
11:39 pm
one was the lack of play where we didnt take advantage of jj reddick’s inability to defend. he should have been abused.
second was the play i remember where josh got too cute, being within 2 inches it seemed of the basket to slam it home. instead he seemingly took the ball out of the basket and passed it to marvin waiting at the three point line. the decision to distribute at that point was a surprise as from my vantage point he had it made and elected to play good teammate and share the ball. make one more pass josh when you are on the perimeter and time allows it, not when you have the ball in the cylinder.
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Najeh Davenpoop
January 8th, 2009
12:08 am
Having Zaza back will definitely help. Morris and Jones are simply not physically ready to provide quality minutes against Dwight Howard. It’s just gonna come down to execution — defensive rotations, knocking down free throws, etc. Even if Turkeyglue and Lewis are taller than our forwards, just having a hand in a guy’s face every time he throws the shot up makes a huge difference.
On the bright side, I don’t think the Hawks can play much worse than they did in the 2nd and 3rd quarters, and they still managed to only lose by a few points. If they can bring it for four quarters I think they will be fine.
Nice to see that Josh Smith dunk though. Good to know that he’s officially back.
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Big Milt
January 8th, 2009
12:17 am
Enter your comments here
Hey Doc & Astro Joe- what are your thoughts on tonight’s game against the Magic ?
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G Money
January 8th, 2009
6:42 am
I found it inexplicable that the Hawks would come out like this after 3 days off, home court to protect, and with ground to gain on the Magic. Lack of senior leadership is what I attribute it to.
Doc, I take some umbrage at your singling Josh out. Given the leader of the team goes 29% from the field, 25% from 3 pt line, and 50% from free throw line. Yes, I’m calling out JJ. Bibby doesn’t do much better – 35% from the field, 20% from the arc, and 4-4 from the charity stripe. Josh goes 10-15 for 67% from the field, 50% from 3pt land, and 0-4 for free throws (totally unacceptable as well). Josh may make mistakes, but I didn’t see any one play that precipitated the demise of this team. In big games, the leaders have to come to play. He and Marvin were trying to fill a void.
If everyone recalls, Garnett put the Celtics on his back in the 2nd half and carried them to the W. Everyone on this blog can recall important games where the leaders/stars rise up and put in high quality performances. Didn’t happen last night. My assumption is that JJ is hurt; thus, the reason he isn’t beating anyone off the dribble, isn’t hitting most of his shots, and seems lethargic most of the game. Or perhaps, he likes playing 40 minutes plus a game, and isn’t feeling like he’s in the flow unless he has a certain number of touches or minutes. I don’t know but I find it a little worrisome. He’s too valuable to the success of this organization. The team goes nowhere without him and Bibby performing at a consistently high levels.
On another note, I was encouraged to see the bench used. It was kind of amusing to watch Morris play – he didn’t have much of a clue and I’m sure was surprised to be on the floor. He’s a big guy with long arms. Perhaps he goes to the “Solo” school of development and comes back a beast next year. Solo acquitted himself well even though he gave up way too much to Howard (ergo 4 fouls in 11 minutes).
Maybe we solve the equation tonight. Everybody has a bad game every now and then.
Would love to know from Sekou or anyone, what’s going on with our fearless leader.
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doc
January 8th, 2009
7:15 am
g money josh played a great game if there was great game for a hawk last night. i was asked to discuss plays and that is the first sentence of this thread. that one stuck out in my mind and i discussed it coherently and pointedly. i came close to saying josh learns and hopefully we wont see that again. look only to the last post where i said some very positive things about josh got taken umbrage for it as well, cant win with josh. i have long been a supporter of him especially being called on the carpet by many for the fiasco that almost came of this summer’s botching of contracts to know again it is an isolated thing. that was the theme. now maybe i could say solo didnt do that or this because he isnt an icon and you wouldnt be offended however that type of play set the tone that he and the rest were playing in.
now pick your plays and be a playa. pick apart some plays of jj, unfortunately there were many and if you go over to the other blog you might find a few comments of jj as well that were of a broader nature.
i think this has the capacity to be josh’s team and should be as he is the leader in the wings; said that last year as well not this year. he has to make the right plays at the right time. that was not the right play. later he didnt defer to anyone and threw down a thunderous dunk when he could have passed. that was what i was talking about only too late to make a difference in this game in question. got it bro?
speaking of botching contract negotiations. wren and liberty are making us forget how the sund/basg coalition almost cost us dearly last year only to be rescued by the clippers and davis or the sixers and brand.
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G Money
January 8th, 2009
10:20 am
Point well-taken doc. As for the plays that stick out…obviously, the biggest was the missed lay-up. Aside from that for me it was the missed fourth quarter 3 taken by JJ. Everyone was waiting for the usual heroics which were not there. They hadn’t been there all night. Frankly, with the game winding down, the biggest gaff was Woody calling another clear out for JJ when he clearly wasn’t on. It would have been great to kick it to Marvin, Josh or try something else. In thinking about it, that for me was the biggest play – not recognizing what you’re working with. You gotta go with the hot hand.
As for the team being Josh’s – he’s not ready. He will be at some point, but not this year. I wonder if that is part of the problem. It feels as if there is a push-pull dynamic going on. NBA adolescence??
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doc
January 8th, 2009
10:43 am
yup g, not ready but josh is building towards it and more my point and theme the last 12 months.
ask astro, whom i enjoyed being with immensely last night and my bud melvin er milton, heh heh, if he is reading. the subject the three of us talked at length about is one of the hawks apparent short comings of not playing to the hot hand until it gets un-hot. there are five scorers at least on this team maybe six or seven if flipmo is included. they should be made to feel and act that way. the notion well played out here is woody often takes out the hot hand instead of playing to it. last night if there was a hot hand or energy it was smash or marvin, both leading fast breaks in the fourth quarter not jj or bibby. agree whole heartedly and see very common ground. neither one was in the mix for the final shot. how many times did i hear in my right ear, “why didnt marvin even touch the ball on that last possession”? milton has the answer.
if we are to take the next step marvin and josh have to be ready for it and the sooner they learn it the better. the day of depending on iso jj in the last minute is done and the sooner we break that pattern the iso jj begins to work when it is not so relied on. as a coach on the opposite bench i stop him and force the other guys to win the game, not like we did in new jersey when anyone except vince carter should have been forced to beat you. too many times we see it work for the other team in show downs at the end where the ball dribbles off jj’s foot as he is double or triple teamed in the crunch whether it is at the end of quarters or games. jj is not lebron, dwayne, kobe or even pierce (oh, i hated to say that last name) let us put that behind us and go forward.
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Sautee
January 8th, 2009
11:28 am
I’m reposting this from Sekou’s blog. There was some discussion there about whether the responsibility for the loss fell on the players or the coach.
Woodson certainly has some culpability in the loss, but as I see it it’s from a scheme standpoint.
As Ray pointed out, the starting backcourt took 34 shots, and shot a poor percentage. That’s gonna happen some nights, but where the culpability lies is in the scheme that had the backcourt taking that many shots.
Look, it’s worked fairly well so far don’t you think? 22-12 is so much better than last year. And JJ and Bibby ARE our most experienced players. But when you put that many eggs in the “backcourt basket”, you’re bound to break a few every now and then.
Yes, the players must execute, and failed to last night, but a scheme that has us taking that many jump shots WILL fail if our backcourt shooting is off.
If the scheme is tilted THAT much toward the backcourt, we’ll end up putting our fate in the percentage that JJ and Bibby shoot. and that scheme is just what Woody wants right now.
We need more consistent frontcourt offense, so that we’re not as vulnerable to games of this sort. That’s on Woody to find a way.
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Don!
January 8th, 2009
12:47 pm
Man, I go away for one week and we see what happens …
Look at the bright side, we’re playing better than the Celtics right now. LOL!
Anyway, this is one of those games that happen during the 82-game season. Heck our last three could have all gone either way. I would have liked to get one of those games back — especially the Nets game, but there’s going to be times like this through the season. Two years ago, this team would have been sleepwalking though all four quarters and losing by 20. Now we’re just sleepwalking for shorter periods — and in certain areas of the game.
The one thing that I appreciate about Woody’s style is that he focuses on defense. There are going to be nights where your shot doesn’t fall or the bounces just don’t go your way. But good defense will get you through that — and in an 82-game season, there’s 20 or so games where both teams are tired/unmotivated/uninvolved — and in those matchups, defense usually wins.
I think Woody will put his foot down in practice this week, and we’ll see some better defensive intensity out of this team in the next couple of games. When we came out of the box with that great start — it was all about the defense. Since then, we’ve kind of lost that focus, due in part to injuries and (dare I say it ..) players getting a bit tired (due to too many minutes?) in the second quarter of the season.
From now until mid-February is where you really make the playoffs. The cream rises to the top, because good teams fight through this grind. Good defense makes the grind easier. The last month, you’re playing for seeding. But we still need to focus on the here and now, and not take our good start for granted.
Two things will help. First, focus on the defense first. Second, keep your player’s heads in the game by having them play in shorter, focused spurts within the game. In other words, sometimes the coach needs to just say — no matter what the score, up or down — let’s just win these next five minutes.
Of course, extending the rotation to get some more time for you younger folks will help both those points … in my humble opinion.
Later,
Don!
P.S. Free Acie and Mario!
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doc
January 8th, 2009
12:57 pm
from now into feruary you stay in the hunt is the way i see it don. this is crunch time grind time and the c’s are feeling it now. that is how i hop we can muster energy t stay above the mark we have set then to surge back in march. we are not at home but about three dates in february. this team will have to man up to stay where it is to have something left in march when they come home for about 11 of 12 games.
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Astro Joe
January 8th, 2009
1:05 pm
Sautee, I recall seeing the Hawks try hard to establish themselves inside during the first few minutes of the game. I also watched as they missed lightly contested shots in the paint and or couldn’t finish strongly at the basket. In summary, they played like wimps at the beginning. Orlando came out ready for a playoff-type contest while the Hawks were sleep-walking through the first 8 minutes of the game. After getting it to a 29-29 tie, Orlando put it in another gear that the Hawks couldn’t maintain until their furious 4th quarter rally. I think the scheme was okay, it was the lack of execution (and energy) that forced the team to play from behind most of the game.
I COMPLETELY disagree that this is Smith’s team or becoming Smith’s team. But I will agree that the team plays much better when he decides to play a physical brand of ball. We know that Horford and Zaza are always willing to bang. When Smith joins them and “man’s up” then this is a completely different team. It seems like Smith often starts out slowly during many seasons and there is usually a 3-4 game spurt when he becomes an ultra-productive player… and then that light typically stays on for the remainder of the year. The play that Ray pointed out, when he took it hard to the hole (after previously passing out of a comparable opportunity as Doc discussed) may signal that the light is green again. We’ll see. His scoring is definitely back but it doesn’t feel like he’s the same rebounder and shot-blocker as pre-injury.
Bottom line, this team still has a tendency to “go soft”. That shows up when we shoot too many 3s on offense, get pounded in the paint and/or can’t box out. While a “legit” big would help, we have seen that the simple “don’t f with me tonight” mindset also gets the job done. If we’re going to win Friday night, our front court needs to walk on the floor thinking “this ain’t the night to f with me” and then break their foot off in that Magic a$$.
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doc
January 8th, 2009
1:53 pm
agree to disagree only the guy that sets the tone becomes the man. he is the only player of that stature now that can come close to the present man jj. right now he is the only one signed past 2010 as he is signed for four more years. further salt deeper into the wound is we will look like idiots when we find out he isnt available for the next year.
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Astro Joe
January 8th, 2009
2:57 pm
Doc, I was actually thinking about Horford. Now that isn’t to say that he will be better than Smith (or Marvin) but that he will “set the tone” (to use your phrase). When there is a missed defensive rotation, I see Horford talking to a teammate. When we’re getting bum-rushed in the paint, I think Horford will be the one to deliver the “aggressive” foul to send a message. But if we want to establish a low post game, we really need both of those guys… since Horford’s game is still a work in progress and Smith tends to stray away from the paint. Since neither are Duncan, Bosh or KG… it will definitely take the two of them in tandem to “set the tone” against the league’s elite.
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honest_abe
January 8th, 2009
3:40 pm
howdy…………..
good points doc & aj.
i think the hawks are soft on some nights because they just don’t match up very well physically. imagine trying to bang with someone who is typically taller, heavier and stronger than you are. this is the situation josh and al find themselves in on most nights.
like someone mentioned earlier. jj came out real flat. i wonder if he’s 100%… he looked pretty weak coming off of 3 days rest.
yo can anyone tell me how jj reddick was blowing people up? tough loss. lets bounce back against philly!
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Astro Joe
January 8th, 2009
3:50 pm
Abe, we haven’t heard from you since Huckabee & Edwards were among the front-runners in their respective parties. Stick around.
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G Money
January 8th, 2009
4:19 pm
Guys I don’t know if you see it or not, but I hate to give Ando an “in” but what I am seeing is that perhaps we are tiring of the night in/night out banging inside against guys bigger and stronger. We really missed ZaZa It does take a toll, particularly if you didn’t prepare for this kind of grind in the off-season.
Astro, I didn’t say this was Smoove’s team. It could be one day, though.
Sautee, you’re right on the scheme. The reality is that other teams watch tape. They see what the Hawks have been doing. They now see how to defend it. What’s next??? We don’t have a what’s next!!! While defense is imperative, we still have to score points.
Our interior scoring sucks. I don’t think I’ve seen three interior passes that haven’t gotten disrupted or stolen. We don’t whip the ball around like we used to either. We tried a little motion offense last night, but either the picks weren’t strong enough, we weren’t quick enough or Orlando is just a better team (I don’t want to believe that one).
Doc, the guy who sets the tone is the man. You’re absolutely correct. As I said before, I believe Marvin and Josh are trying to fill a leadership void on the court. I hope they don’t have to as we move deeper into the season. That means JJ and Bibbs are stepping up.
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Big Ray
January 8th, 2009
7:24 pm
Wow. The comments are off the CHAIN. I’m not surprised though, as I know most of you (at least in the online sense) and have an innate appreciation for your knowledge and insight.
Honest Abe,
Don’t go away again like that. I thought I was going to have to put the ol’ BCU Missing Persons Task Force on the road to find your crazy butt. Good to see you again, and I look forward to your rapier wit on this blog.
Doc and Astro Joe,
Very good contrasting points, and I can see that there is more in common than there is in contrast. In particular, I can see the concept that AJ puts out there about Al and Josh. Clearly, they balance each other.
Josh does need to get back to terrorizing the opponents on defense and he DOES need to get back to that 8-9 rpg level. But I’ll damn sure take these 20 point nights where he’s shooting above 50%.
Here’s the thing about Josh passing out to a teammate when he’s in a position to score- I recall another player who he has been compared to constantly. A guy who has much of the same game when it comes to having the ability to score, rebound, block shots, and get assists (but he shoots way better). Hell, they even gave him a name for it: The Matrix. Yeah. THAT guy. Shawn Marion. Josh may never shoot like Marion does. But he has the potential to be better than Marion is. We’ll see how far he goes.
Also, I like Astro Joe’s “Don’t F with me tonight” attitude idea. It’s hard to beat a team that’s mentally tough, but even moreso when they’re coming at you with a “I am not the one to F with” mentality. We need that edge. And it will probably have to come from our frontcourt. We won’t get it from our backcourt, though they will follow along if led.
Don!,
That 21-6 run we went on didn’t start until we started getting our hands on the ball, whether it was passing or dribbling. We showed plenty of defensive intensity….too late. We spent a little more than two quarters letting the Magic shoot from wherever. And despite what the numbers say, Dwight Howard doesn’t really beat us up that badly. Yes, 19 rebounds is a hell of a lot. But guess what? There was only a difference of one rebound when comparing both team total rebounds. But 23 points? That’s “containing” a superstar. The man works for it against Horford. Howard didn’t beat us up. The wings and perimeter guys did. And that makes no sense.
I’ll say this as well: Flip is an offensive spark plug (when he’s on). He is not a defensive spark plug, and we need one of those in the game. More specifically, we need on in the backcourt. Do we have one already (that just isn’t playing), or do we need to go get one?
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Big Ray
January 8th, 2009
7:36 pm
G Money,
I have to admit that my initial reaction was to argue with Doc’s first post. But after a few seconds of thought, I knew exactly what he was trying to say (though that play didn’t stick out to me…he does that same pass a lot). Also, you’re right about the execution of the screens and the interior passing/scoring, at least in last night’s game. I think we can attribute some of that to what Sautee brought up…
Sautee,
Great points about putting all of your eggs in one basket. Every team that is able to win off of ISO plays late in the game has solid ways of scoring throughout the game, therefore lending strength to the ISO plays.
In Portland, guys like Aldridge, Outlaw, and others hurt you all game long. Then Roy finishes you off in the 4th if he’s needed.
Dirk Nowitzki is definitely the guy to go to in crunch time (well, most of the time). But without the contributions of guys like Terry, Howard, Bass, etc, he’d be worn down and even his tremendous mismatch advantages wouldn’t be all they could be.
Boston throws several guys at you all night. But in the end, it’s Pierce and Garnett. Sometimes just Pierce.
If the Nets were more able down low, they’d win more games. As it is, they still have possibly the best backcourt in the East (we’re pretty close ourselves).
The old Suns teams would kill you with Stoudamire, Marion, etc. Then Nash would nail the lid in the coffin when his scoring was needed. All because you could not ignore the others. And that’s the trick. To get by on bread and butter plays, to effectively involve the bench. To get consistent, solid scoring from a few sources. Then use your most lethal weapons at the end if needed.
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O'brien
January 8th, 2009
9:00 pm
With the kind of shooters Bibby and JJ are, how come we can’t run that play the Magic did, when Nelson was left open. I think one of their bigs set a pick, and Nelson was open for 2 or 3 easy shots. Everytime we try that play, we (usually Zaza) get called for a foul.
Also, I agree that something is wrong with our scheme. Either the players can’t execute, or Woody needs to come up with a better scheme.
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Big Ray
January 8th, 2009
10:28 pm
O’Brien,
I’d bet on a mixture of the two. We aren’t executing for some reason, and some of Woody’s schemes are questionable. All that aside, our defense was awful. Considering that we’re a still predominantly young team that’s just now learning how to be a WINNING team, I’d say that defensive execution and intensity will have to take a front seat to offensive execution. We’re not good enough yet where our offense can make up for our defensive lapses.
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Sautee
January 9th, 2009
11:28 am
Ray,
I’m gonna disagree with that last statement. I think, unfortunately,or VERY fortunately, depending on how one looks at it, we are JUST BARELY good enough to hit enough jumpers on a GIVEN night to make up for lack of defensive intensity. This was all too true in the dozen or so games that Josh missed. And it might be the difference in our record this year, as I certainly don’t think we’ve “brought it” on defense every night.
It’s an easy trap to fall into, when the jumpers are going in. And I’m sure Woody is pounding that message home.
I DO agree that when we execute defensively and play with intensity, we’re a TOTALLY different team. That’s the team that started 6-0. That’s what we need tonight. And SHARE THE BALL! This means you Flip Murray!
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Big Ray
January 9th, 2009
11:45 am
Good point, Sautee.
I should have been more specific, in that I was thinking we are not CONSISTENTLY good enough against GOOD teams to do overcome our defensive deficiencies with offensive execution alone. The reason I say this is because GOOD teams are much more likely to defend us well enough to keep our new found perimeter/jumpshooting abilities from helping us seal the game. We found that out against Orlando a night ago when our starting backcourt went 11-34 from the field. We’ve found it out against teams like Cleveland. New Jersey has done it to us, too, and they’re not even a team that has a winning record (but they match up well against us). But hey, I could still be wrong.
Big kudos to Woody for calling ALL of his players out in practice about their defense, as reported by Sekou Smith. Things always start with leadership, and Woody needs to hold his top guys accountable. I am glad to see he did that, as JJ is one in particular who needs to ramp it back up on defense, as some others have noted.
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O'brien
January 9th, 2009
12:58 pm
I hope they worked on free throws in practice too.
I’m sure others have noticed that when good teams turn up the defensive pressure, the Hawks play better when they get out and run. Which is what Sekou suggested the Hawks should have done more against the Magic to wear Dwight out (and take advantage of the Magic shooters who are not that great defensively).
Even if the other team scores, we can still get out and run, especially since we struggle from inconsistent offensive execution. Maybe Woody will allow them to run more (although he says that in order to run, you must play good defense first).
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doc
January 9th, 2009
9:41 pm
where did everybody go?
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Frank Wren
January 9th, 2009
9:48 pm
And you thought Atlanta sports was having a rough week BEFORE…
Suckers.
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G Money
January 10th, 2009
6:45 am
Hey Doc,
I think everyone is in shock. I watched the game in amazement and disbelief last night. Not in my wildest dreams could I have conjured up such a mauling. It was worse than the Christians and the Lions. Some things really are inexplicable.
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Big Ray
January 10th, 2009
7:42 am
An aberration. Nothing could go wrong for the Magic, and nothing could go right for us.
However, there was also a complete breakdown. We can’t chalk it all up to simple bad luck. The bad luck just really came over the top of bad play. Everybody gets a piece of the blame on this one.
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Big Ray
January 10th, 2009
7:44 am
Thing is, we’re still a team with a winning record. Time to go get after Philly. A loss to them (particularly a bad loss) would suggest that something else is at work. But until I see that, no reason to believe that we’re suddenly on the downward spiral, back to where we came from.
And the typical calls for trading Bibby or canning Woody will come, but they’re just not necessary. However, I can think of some other trades I’d make, and they wouldn’t be because of two losses to the same team.
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Big Ray
January 10th, 2009
8:16 pm
New blog up, if anybody’s reading….
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doc
January 10th, 2009
9:05 pm
nice stuff ray, only the idea the guy was floating with a .150 blood level and with his background for him or anyone in that situation is something to take seriously if you dont take the person sir charles seriously. it is a health issue and pleased he and his bosses are taking it serious by the fact he is taking time away from his TNT perch. many said he wouldnt at the height of their criticism. they were wrong and for charles suggests he means more to them than to enable him further.
plan to be there tomorrow hoping this past week was a mirage.
yup seems spurs get coached up again. that guy is good, really good.
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Big Ray
January 10th, 2009
9:37 pm
**”Not to undermine the seriousness and the potential of tragedy behind it, as those who know enough about me know that I take this seriously.”**
I must have been using that invisible ink again when I typed that one part…
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Big Ray
January 10th, 2009
9:43 pm
Heh, Heh, Heh.
Enjoy the game with Ando.
And wait for a classic Ando post that’s coming soon. It’s gonna be some goooood stuff!
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HB Ando
January 10th, 2009
9:55 pm
doc, I’m curious: does a 300-pound man have more liters of blood than a 200-pound man? Because if not, I’m wondering if there isn’t variability in the actual “inebriation” of 2 men, with 100-pound difference in body weight, who both have the same blood alcohol level.
Seriously not making light of Barkley’s drinking, but from what I know about his time in Atlanta (TNT), this was a slow night……….
At what level does his employer take some accountability? I’ve got a hunch that many, many times, over the years, his “coffee” cup has been filled with vodka, while he’s rambling on any tangent that suits him.
This event, like many that have preceded it recently, continues to the beg the question, “why don’t rich people, who like to get hammered, just pay somebody to drive them around?”
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doc
January 10th, 2009
11:10 pm
ando blood volume is blood volume and is usually given as an average size individual about 170 lbs. of 5 liters. alcohol blood levels are given for contents within a dl of blood just like glucose. so there is no variability for the size of a man the blood volume for the actual inebriation of the man any more than someone 300 lbs or 200 lbs has different glucose levels. it is individualized to how someone metabolizes alcohol but that is the only variability, period. someone who drinks has enzymes to help his body get rid of it as it really is a poison so they might be able to metabolize and drink more. bottom line .150 is .150 whether it is in a 100 lb woman or 300 lb man.
by the way the highest level i ever saw in someone alive and still breathing was, now get this, 768. that means his blood was almost completely made of alcohol. he was still in the emergency room sleeping it off when i came back for my shift 12 hours later essentially in an alcohol induced coma for 18 hours. folks can die in the 300 and over levels and what gets the young college kids their first time out on a spree. sir charles’ level was not inconsequential. i am sure ray has seen higher in his time. i have never have talked to many police about it but it is serious and as you say probably not an isolated event. it even may be his natural level on screen.
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BA
January 11th, 2009
7:36 am
This was a superb article, Ray- creative. Look, I don’t judge anybody who’s had a DUI. I haven’t, and I think the problem should be solved permanently- a damn life sentence for DUI. It’s inexcusable, on any level of society, for any individual. So many people DIE from DUI- a lovely young girl in our town was killed over the holiday from by some drunken dirtbag.
If our lawmakers were really interested in stopping DUI, this is what would happen. Maybe not life, but make it the equivalent of “attempted murder”. Of course, that will never happen, because the government has a great racquet going with the probations and breath machines and fines…can’t get all that revenue if you just lock the slobs up for good.
doc, in regards to ando’s point- what about the breathalizers that cops test them with on the spot? Would the difference in weight matter in that case? Always wondered about that one.
Being that the laws are what they are, why should Barkley have to be suspended, or whatever they’re calling it? The guy is the centerpiece of the best (and most original) sports show on TV. He got a dui, just like millions of other people.
I think people in this country are hypocritical. If DUI’s are so offensive, then let’s get some tougher laws- not higher fines, hard time.
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BA
January 11th, 2009
7:45 am
While we’re on the subject, what about this kid Mason with the Spurs? That’s a nice backcourt, Mason, the Frenchman, Ginobli and the ghost of Micheal Finley…
I was writing about Posey last week- he’s very underrated. Now he’s doing the same thing in the Big Easy that he did in Miami and Boston- they’re a top five defensive squad and he’s leading them in three-point percentage.
We need to RUN (to beat Philly) Ray. We need to RUN. And I’d like to have the Georgian available.
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doc
January 11th, 2009
8:01 am
ba society has a hsrd enough time paying to keep the criminals it has now. unless you and i and the rest of society are going to raise their taxes higher to support more jails to hold them all then it will continue as it is. i guess we could really do somethng and stop selling liquor. oh yeah tried that and it didnt work and tax revenues were lost to boot. we are suck only the statistics suggest if one has a dui it is almost certain their is a drinking problem . we ignore that one fact as well. just arent going to be judgmental are we? yes occasional first timers or celebrators are caught but by percentage those caught have an issue.most times it is the tip of the iceburg andwe tend to cover that up and was rally to my point.
dont know much about breathalizers, their accuracy and how they actually work as they werent part of the lab assessment. however, gas is a liquid as well so it is the same construct; it is done by amount of substance in a volume of a gas substance. the lungs are used to dispel toxins as well just as the skin is. they can be used just as well to absorb things like nicotine and cocaine or meds.
i pray barkley is getting treated for a substance abuse issue and though it wasnt stated that way it seemed such by the language used in explaining his time off. rehab is still the best way for society and the individual, it is less costly if taken seriously and why the courts do it that way ba. only the mind and society tend to ignore it, play to it and excuse it just as the individual denies it in his own mind.
as far as charles he will either be contrite or he will try to deny it like he does with his significant gambling issue he has. in other words, be the funny charles. doesnt everyone love the funny drunk?
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doc
January 11th, 2009
8:09 am
nice to see zaza get a little love.
BA, agree, posey is a winner in the image of the player that looks like wil smith whose name escapes me now. was a spur, laker? and rocket on their championship teams and always came up big. posey is the man and cant believe boston let him go
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Big Ray
January 11th, 2009
10:54 am
BA,
Thanks. It was just stuff bouncing around in my head, as I was thinking of other things besides getting the stuffing beat out of us. No, we as a society are not that interested in taking a LOT of things seriously. Hence the “war on drugs.” Too much money involved. Or too little, depending on how you choose to look at it. Either way, money is the real issue. Too many times, people take it for granted until they see the potential tragedies realized right in front of them. Then they want to be serious. Until then, it’s “hey, we all have our rights, and I don’t want anybody trampling on mine. As long as it doesn’t affect or touch me, I don’t care what’s happening.” But we could talk about this all day, and I’d rather not. Too damn depressing. As it is, I half-regret having brought the subject up anyway. My real point was that writers are making THIS of all things, the crux of whether or not Barkley is to be taken seriously, when he has been playing the fop all along. The man has never tried hard to be taken seriously. He’s not even well-spoken half the time, and perhaps has never worked with anyone to help improve that. And would he be so popular if he wasn’t what he is? This latest batch of incidents are a completely different matter altogether.
And the gambling? So what, it’s his money and his problem. Did not Michael Jordan get caught doing the SAME thing, if not moreso? The difference was that he was a man of championships and endorsements, a permanent media darling. Charles was the fop and fool, and continues to be. Yep.
Doc suggests that maybe, just maybe, Barkley is seeking help (therefore explaining the time off), I take a more cynical approach. I hope he seeks help too for whatever he needs. But we know this game, do we not? I doubt that was the true motive for the time off, and doubt that it was all his own decision. With the amount of attention it got, TNT most likely decided they needed him to take the time off. Perhaps he agreed without reluctance. Cynical? Yeah. And probably correct. Look how long it took Marv Albert to “get back in the game”….
I agree on the approach to Philly today. Run like hell. And don’t look back. Energy, energy, energy. That’s really how we win all of our games. To do otherwise is to find a way to lose, unless our jumpers are falling like Orlando’s were the other night.
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Big Ray
January 11th, 2009
11:01 am
By my guess, Ainge figured he could replace anybody he lost in free agency, and that any vet would be glad to come to Boston, or that any that were there would be grateful to stay. Wrong. Cassell is there, but doesn’t play. PJ is gone, and Posey said goodbye. They could have had Dikembe, but told him “don’t call us, we’ll call you…after we sit around, smoke a stoagie, and think about all the other FAs that aren’t coming yet but will surely prostrate themselves before us freely, grateful of the chance to be part of the return of a dynasty.”
Wrong again, so far. It ain’t over yet for Boston. The road to the Finals is still through them, and they are still the defending champs. But they have made many enemies with their chest-beating and trash talking. Everyone wants to take them down, and some have figured out just how to do it, I think. World beaters last year, and they got their rings. But the road back is always tougher, ask the Spurs. And they don’t have all the soldiers they had, either.
Furthermore, I don’t think you’ll see a barrage of iconoclastic, super dramatic commercials featuring a raptor-like KG roaring and pounding his chest like some anemic King Kong. No, the media shall latch onto a new powerful darling. And his name is King James.
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doc
January 11th, 2009
11:50 am
ray, now dont go cynical on me. that is my job ray. dont give me the optimist mantle just yet. heh heh
i also see more to sir charles as there is a lot of truth in what he says in many formats and subjects, a modern day will rogers at times. hope he gets fixed up so he can be relevant.
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Mason
January 11th, 2009
1:44 pm
Speaking of the Spurs–just how do they do it? They are always in the mix of competitive teams. Always a great possibility of winning it all (albeit in odd number years). How does a team sustain that for year after year?
And why, oh why, can’t the Hawks do it?
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Big Ray
January 11th, 2009
4:23 pm
Man, I hate it when one of our bigs is out.
Here we are giving up all kinds of points to a team with no shooters. Gee, it must be the interior defense, eh? How long before we get another big in here? I figure there is two ways to do this: get one that will be a starter, or a vet to come off the bench and enforce things?
Once again, we are putting all of our faith in the backcourt…and getting outrebounded in the frontcourt. Yuck. Hope we can pull this one out, though. We keep getting close…I don’t want to begin spending the rest of the season this way.
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Big Ray
January 11th, 2009
4:25 pm
And they pull away again.
I don’t like to give up early, but with the “get close” then “fall behind again” trend, I’d say this game is done. Even though we’re only down by 11. We just don’t have it. Everything is coming from the perimeter. And mostly from two guys…
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Big Ray
January 11th, 2009
4:32 pm
There goes the game. And with us going West (without Horford, no less)…
The Hawks are just going to have to man-up. That’s all there is to it. The guards can’t hog the ball, they have to get the wings involved early. They played well, but not enough by themselves to get the job done. Marvin and Josh are going to have to scramble, scrabble, hustle, and fight. Or we’re going to lose some more games. In a row.
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RJ
January 11th, 2009
4:59 pm
This team is done if woody is the coach. He couldn’t motivate a roach to avoid Raid bug spray. This team has gone as far as it’s gonna go with woody. Avery Johnson is the coach we need.
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BA
January 11th, 2009
5:01 pm
I’ve always liked the way Mike Woodson has run this squad. There’s been a consistent level of professionalism- a cohesiveness.
I’m not seeing it now. It’s time for Woodson to reign these cats in, because I’m starting to think losing Horford could be much harder than losing Smith. At least, today it seemed that way.
The defensive identity is missing, or at least hit-or-miss. The communication is non-existent right now. Woodson has always been good at the whole Indiana hard azz routine. Right now he and his staff need a little Zen Master action, because the balance is off.
Is ol’ Flip worth all of these turnovers?
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MannyT
January 11th, 2009
6:10 pm
Would it be to cynical of me to say that a regular 5-10 minutes in November and December sets up a bench player to play a more significant role when a starter is injured? I get that Zaza is just coming back from the flu so his energy might be low, but the Sixers were playing the way we should play with our regular starters.
Run, run, run, as fast as you can, you can’t catch me…I’m an undersized PF/C
If Al will be out for awhile, I think there should be some tweaking to take advantage of things that these players do well. Maybe some more Solo/Josh tandem if a team drives a lot. More Zaza/Marvin if they just pund the ball inside. It was interesting to see Josh at the 5 for part of this game, but he does not seem committed to working the lane on offense. No way he keeps up with Phoenix or the Clippers at the 5 for more than brief moments against Amare.
Offensively, this might be the time to see if RandMo can truly score against NBA quality big men. Even if his role with the 2nd team is only to be an interior option on offense, it is clearly something we need to look at over the next game or two.
And as trivial curiousity will have it…here’s what I saw about the workings of a breatholizer.
http://www.breathalyzer.net/faq.html#generalbreathalyzerquestions
And if CB won’t get a driver, I suggest getting a room close to the bar for those lucky nights or putting the adult taste in his other passion…food. For example BAM http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/emeril-lagasse/kicked-up-pasta-rags-with-vodka-sauce-recipe/index.html
BWAF
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Sautee
January 11th, 2009
9:07 pm
new blog up
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The Hawksta
January 11th, 2009
9:18 pm
As usual great read Ando!
However, when you counting other people’s money the conversation can get kind of testy! The only person I think is of any immediate use to the Hawks is Wilcox from OkC. So now that we know who we need it’s a matter of putting together a package, crunching the numbers and finding out whether this can work.
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doc
January 11th, 2009
9:44 pm
nice stuff ando, short on semi-colons, something personal?
since you brought up the fella, mr young looked pretty good for a third year college kid. at half time i posed this question to melvin and manny t. if you had a choice who would you take, marvin or thadeus? surprisingly there were two answers. good chatting up those two guys and hanging a bit with melvin as he dropped down to some empty seats next to me.
not a good crowd today, family day and little to cheer about.
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Sautee
January 11th, 2009
9:53 pm
Oooo doc, a low blow!
Ando, I’ll come back tomorrow and discuss.
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JJ
January 11th, 2009
10:15 pm
Our defense at the guard positions,especially at PG,is killing the Hawks.Does Bibby’s offense compensate for his lack of defense?I don’t think so.You win with defense,and early on this season we were playing good D,but I think we started to believe we were a great offensive team.Our TEAM has to play DEFENSE……
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MannyT
January 12th, 2009
3:17 am
doc…As soon as Marvin learns that like a good pitcher, he needs 2 good moves. Right now he has about 8 mediocre moves. The problem being he outthinks himself when he gets the ball if it is not an obvious 3 point shot. Simplifying will make his offense better. His defense has improved this year.
The Young fella will be good, but you are tempting me to go back to my old standard…if Marvin played there and Thad played here, would you have the same argument. There is a Woody factor that makes this question less obvious than you state.
Ando…the Hawks can afford a move, but I don’t know that they will make one. The affordability comes in doing what they did last season. If you want to send an expiring contract (Zaza) or two (Marvin) out, you can get a decent player in return for that 9+ mil. You could probably get something done with either Josh as well. However, I think the ASG would be against that move unless we really hit a severe downward spiral like down to 9th in the east.
All that said, if he wasn’t hurt, I’d put in a call for Chris Kaman. Others may look at Channing Frye, but I wonder what we could offer Portland? They do need to save some cap room now that Miles will add about 9 mil to their cap number, but Frye makes less than Zaza.
BWAF
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O'brien
January 12th, 2009
12:31 pm
JJ…Winning with defense is the correct way. But you can also win by outscoring opponents, and the Hawks are able to win some games that way. Uptempo, and running. However, Woody refuses to let them play that way.
The ironic thing is that if Woody let the Hawks run, that would hide some of his obvious strategic coaching deficiencies.
Good read Ando. The bad thing is if the bench does not play well immediately (for whatever reason) people will be quick to say thats why they don’t get any PT. Completely ignoring the fact that it takes consistent PT and confidence (and Woody plays a huge role).
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shresee2
January 12th, 2009
12:47 pm
The inprovements to the bench in the off season were good compared to previous years. However, we all know Al is no center and he is getting beat up down there. If this continues the starting five may not 100% at playoff time. JJ even said after Sunday’s lost to the sixers that the starting 5 are not clicking and digging a hole before the bench players come in. It took the Cav’s and the Celtics years to develop a nucleus of winning basketball. Although money is an issue ownership has to see if a good product is on the floor people will come. Even with the economy tight, people want a reason to cheer and get together. Biddy is good but his defense is lacking at times. Flip can drive the lane but causes to many turn overs. JJ said this is the best year he has had here because they are winning and playing like a team. However, all that yelling Woodson is doing has not motivated them.
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cjizzle
January 12th, 2009
3:02 pm
I think Woody needs to get Law involved more off the bench. We need to see what this kid can do.At times he looks like he has some skills however, he disappears from the rotation even when the team is getting blown Away. The last three games the team has been very flat!! Perhaps Law could and would have provided a much needed lift. Can anyone say late season colapse from a top seed to a bottom playoff seed again!!!
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Big Ray
January 12th, 2009
4:51 pm
Nice post, Ando.
Good comments following it, too.
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Rod from College Park
January 12th, 2009
5:32 pm
Doc,
The answer to your question is that I would take Thaddeus Young over Marvin any and all days of the week. It is amazing to me how many times this year I have heard that Marvin has improved. I will give him a little credit on defense, but the defensive improvement makes him close to average, and not terrible. He is such a limited player. He can not create his own shot. He can’t stay on his feet when he drives. I have never seen a 6′11 guy fall to the ground as much as duck. His handles are questionable. He can only hit a shot when he is wide open, and that is still iffy. He should be the main guy on the trading block. We really need someone at the three who can take someone of the dribble and get to the lane, as we have enough stand still jump shooters (Bibby, Joe, Evans, Flip). Young’s game needs work, but he is fluent and has a very high basketball IQ (which is amazing because, I know that Paul Hewitt did not help to develop that). Marvin should definately be the odd man out. Think of all the young 3’s in the league (Granger, Young, Deng, Prince, Melo, Thorton, Chandler, Howard, Gay, Durant,Outlaw…), can you honestly say that you would take Marvin over any of them now. I can’t. We won’t even go into the fact that he was drafted with the #2 pick in the draft. Maybe Denver will trade Melo for Marvin, since they got drafted in the same position in the draft and Marvin is a little younger. (That was a joke).
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Big Ray
January 12th, 2009
8:29 pm
Rod,
Some interesting points. I hear you on Thad Young and the others. One has to wonder if Marvin could do similar things if he came up under a different coach, and therefore under a different system. Of course, this has been debated many times before.
On the flip side of the coin, some of a player’s development is squarely on the player. You know, those who help themselves get helped out…that sort of thing. However, there’s one guy on your list that I’d not take over Marvin at this particular moment: Deng. He’s stinking it up in Chicago (when he’s healthy that is), and is certainly not earning the $71 million dollar contract that he held out for last summer. He was better last year and supposedly onto the next level. Heh….
Should you judge a player by his draft position? Or should you judge the person that picked him there?
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Chea
January 12th, 2009
9:00 pm
Ando, dude, could, you, possibly, use, any, more, commas?
And “tenuous”? Is this a Hawks/SAT/GRE blog?
Our owners want as much stability as possible with the Belkin mess looming, so Woody knows he has his job until it’s all resolved. Any pressure they apply on Woody to use his bench is superficial. The ASG is reticent about things like that anyway. Oops, did I say reticent? Damn Ando, you are contagious. Like Anal Fissures.
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HB Ando
January 12th, 2009
9:22 pm
Chea, yes, I could, possibly, use more commas, if irritated enough. I’ll tell you what’s “tenuous”: some random speaking, as fact, that the ASG is committed to stability until the Belkin mess is resolved, and that, in turn, Woody KNOWS his job is secure, until that issue is resolved.
And I’m not reticent to point such an observation, out.
P.S I’ve never heard of contagious anal fissures, and I’m kind of grossed out by anyone who has expert knowledge of such things (unless you’re a proctologist, which my commas doubt, at the most cynical level, clinically speaking).
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HB Ando
January 12th, 2009
9:29 pm
By the way, Chea, could I get some of your “pets” at a volume discount?
Just, wondering….
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HB Ando
January 12th, 2009
10:10 pm
Let’s go back through the other responses and see what happens:
Hawksta: thanks, and true dat…
doc: I’m short on colon. Bringing in “semi” seems redundant…
JJ: slow PG + undersized front line = flawed defense (at least over an 82-game season). There’s a reason the Hawks fell off when Smith was out. He’s the X-factor, who makes up for the simplistic equation above. But what I wondered, out loud, when we started out 6-0, was could the Hawks possibly maintain the playoff level of intensity that they came out with, over an 82-game season. The answer was, and is (with a nod to Chea), no.
Manny: I don’t know how you can validate, any more than Chea, that the ASG “can afford a move”. I’ve done my best to point out why I don’t think they can afford the current payroll, a full $10 million greater than last year, and any previous year. Where’s you’re evidence? As far as a healthy Kaman, I’d say the Clippers would be far more likely to move the expiring contract, of a guy who’s 10 years older, in the name of Camby. And I’d be willing to take a shot in that direction (I’d be far more interested in giving a 30-plus Camby a 4-5 year deal than a similarly aged Bibby). Frye is starting to develop the reputation of Melvin Ely. A guy who gets a lot of talk, but continues to fail to impress, as the years quickly pass.
shresee2: hard to find fault with anything you said.
Rod: I’m struggling to jump into your point, because I’m not sure I can find the time necessary to fully extrapolate my opinion. It’s the TRUTH, what you say. Anyone who’s been following Sekou’s blog, since it’s inception, knows that I’ve beaten the poop out of the Chris Paul issue (for those who might read this and haven’t, no less than Sekou Smith has backed the fact that I resolutely called for the Hawks to draft Paul BEFORE we took Marvin). The generalization of your point is grounded in the position that great “wings” have always been somewhat discounted, in the draft, in exchange for teams seeking either the next great big, or the next great “one”. There are several names that you highlight (notably, Granger, Gay and Durant), who are worth discussing. But Durant was the #2 overall. And ‘Melo was 3rd overall, famously behind Darko. More noteworthy, in that draft was that Bosh was #4 and Wade was #5.
If I was going to make a point about the recent history of great wings, and where they were taken, I’d actually point to both Pierce and our own JJ. Both were taken 10th overall. Both were viewed as “complete” talents (not unlike Granger, who was taken 17th in ‘05, just a year later than the Hawks had Josh Smith fall in their laps). If someone wants to carve out some meaning from all the wings you highlighted, with Pierce and JJ reasonably added to the mix, it’s that the league has historically viewed the wing position as easier to fill.
It’s that very point that I made to one of the owners, in e-mail correspondence, right after Marvin was drafted. What I said was that I questioned the local hype regarding Marvin as a once-in-a-decade forward (I’m pretty confident that you could track that position back to a certain hall-of-fame Hawk, who’s currently acting as an announcer for the local squad), given the (at the time) projected expectations of Rudy Gay, who was expected to come out the next year (and, in addition to Brandon Roy and Randy Foye, were all taken after the infamous Sheldon Williams).
Say it with me, “Chris Paul”……….
Say it with me, “Brandon Roy”……….
Say it with me, “Ugggggghhhhhhhhhh”……….
Just don’t try and say these opinions are hindsight. They weren’t, aren’t, and never will be……..
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doc
January 12th, 2009
10:14 pm
um for clarity, anal fissures are not contagious, contiguous maybe just not contagious.
rod, cant argue the point. what it does say is marvin has not lived up to the billing he didnt ask for which was he is a one in ten year player. i really like what marvin has done this year only as i watched the finesse, smoothness and motor of the kid i had to wonder. he was probably the surprise of the draft last year as he made a huge impact from the point they put him in the line up and i doubt many expected it of him. dont know how he fits in the scheme of things with elton brand but he did seem comfortable shooting threes, leading the break and finishing at the rim and playing with the big boys.
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HB Ando
January 12th, 2009
11:18 pm
I’ve had a lot of folks scoff at my pre-season suggestion that the Hawks, committed to a long-term front line of Smith and Horford, might look to swap Marvin for Bargnani. Bargnani’s last five games: 21.4 points, 7.4 boards, 1.2 blocks, 3.4 (3.4!!!!!!!!) 3’s (17-26, which is over 60%), and around 55% overall from the field.
It was only a week or two ago that I mentioned to Ray that HoopsHype quoted Bargnani’s availability as Toronto acknowledged a need to balance out the lacking quickness of their front line.
I’ll say it again: with Smith and Horford, boarding from the 3 and 4, a guy like Bargnani would be perfect, despite his rebounding softness. It’s all about balance. And a front line of Smith, Horford and Bargnani would be relentlessly confounding for opposing defenses.
Based on reasonable projections, they’d average nearly 30 boards and 6 blocks a game. And Bargnani’s 3-point shooting would create crazy space for Josh drives and Horford’s developing low-post game.
Just sayin’………
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doc
January 13th, 2009
12:03 am
you know ando life is tough you get criticized for too much punctuation and i last week for too little. i didnt know their were grammer police on the blog. left them in college i thought. if nothing else bro we bring balance to each other and i guess the blog as well. how nice and reaffirming. so keep on truckin man. ando, it is better to have half a colon than half an azz.
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HB Ando
January 13th, 2009
12:12 am
Heh heh…..
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Don!
January 13th, 2009
8:23 am
With the NBA trading deadline fast approaching, I have one real, deep fear for these Hawks — trading Bibby. If we struggle badly over the next few weeks … and we might … I think there’s a real possibility that the ASG will dump Bibby to avoid paying the remainder of his salary for the year.
This is where the lack of run for Acie, and the rest of the benched bench comes into play. When everyone was healthy, we really needed to get these guys some more run. Now that Big Al is out, our other bigs will get some time — but that’s something that should have been addressed BEFORE the injury.
The same may well hold true at the PG position for this team. Either though age, injury or trade — Bibby may not be here the whole year, and almost assuredly not next season. We need to start looking at some other folks here and now.
Maybe the expectations will be lowered over the next couple of weeks for this team, so that Woody feels like he can get the players not currently getting good minutes some good minutes. That way, our remaining players will be better off for the stretch run, and if we do make a move before the trading deadline, we have a better evaluation of our own talent to make solid decisions with.
One other issue bothers me at this point, and it’s been glossed over in the good start to the season. Woody, Sund and the ASG have no real history with each other. They may not all be on the same page. That can cause problems, especially when a team is at an important transition point in their development like the Hawks are now. We have the makings of a good team, but so did the Bulls two years ago. One or two smart moves will make the Hawks contenders (like the Cetlics), but one or two bad moves will make us pretenders (like the Bulls). Or we could just get stuck in the middle for the next decade like the Nets.
I really would like to see better signs of unity from the ASG, Sund and Woody in terms of playing, developing and keeping talent over the next few weeks. In Woody’s case, playing more folks. In Sund’s case, shaking the trees around the league to find folks compatible with Woody’s system, and in ASG’s case, making the public announcement to simply continue supporting this team for now and the foreseeable future.
I don’t know. I think we’re at a crossroads here. As the blog title says, “The Bill Comes Due.”
So are we going to pay it, or file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy? Hawks fans want to know.
Later,
Don!
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Sautee
January 13th, 2009
8:34 am
I can’t say ANYTHING about the “low humor” on this blog, lest MannyT become convinced that I am fixated somewhere I’d rather NOT be fixated.
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Rod from College Park
January 13th, 2009
10:13 am
Enter your comments here
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Rod from College Park
January 13th, 2009
10:50 am
Ando,
I actually like the Bargnani idea. It would definately change the the look ouf our team dramatically. I just know that a move does need to made if we seriously want to compete in the east. I am glad to know that you do kind of agree with me. I have just finally come to realize that Marvin is a true bust. I have really had a problem this year with all the comments about how his game has improved. I actually feel like he has gotten worse. He seems like he is missing more free throws, he does not hit the open shot like he used to, and he consistently falls when he penetrates, and can not finish consistently. Barring a trade for a big man, I really feel like a wing player who can create his own shot, slash, and penetrate to kick or finish at the rim would really change the dynamics of this team. I feel like Marvin is that piece that we really need to get rid of because he does nothing for the team.
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Melvin
January 13th, 2009
11:43 am
I think Sund is savvy enough to allow Woody to do his job how he sees fit without interfering or mandating some specifics. Therefore, if things does not go accoordingly to expectations then Woody would have hung himself with his own rope…
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Chea
January 13th, 2009
1:25 pm
When we are winning and Marvin is playing solid (not quite inspired, but solid) man-to-man defense and is content to go off to the side on offense and drain the jumper when his number is called, he will look like a good fit. When the other starters aren’t bringing the swagger and we go down by 50, Marvin’s willingness to go off the the side becomes quite annoying. Let’s face it, Marvin is an athletic jump-shooter with great length and no swagger. He doesn’t have the desire to dominate; he doesn’t even seem like he has all that much fun playing. It’s like bball is his duty, not his passion.
I would take the risk with Bargnani. Marvin’s usefulness on the floor and our overall intensity, for which other players are mostly responsible, go hand-in-hand. Barg’s skill set would do us better. This trade would have been a hail no at the beginning of the season, but now, gotta roll the dice, given how Bargnani is playing with JO out. Hopefully JO gets back and drives Barg’s value down.
Please don’t say that trading Marv would be an overreacting to recent woes. I wonder if anyone knows/can look up the farthest a team has advanced after being down 50 at some point in the season. Being down 50 is no joke; it necessitates a change. This team reminds me (slightly) of the 04-05 Falcons, luckily advancing to the NFC Championship despite gaping holes shown while losing to the Chiefs 56-10 (8 rushing tds!) and the Bucs 27-0. We have some gaping holes of our own: lack of an offensive system that consistently uses the post, frontcourt depth, and the horrendous management/development of our bench (we play 82 games Woody). Unless the NBA suddenly changes its playoff format to single-elimination, we aren’t going to go as far as those Falcons, let alone win it all.
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jhan
January 13th, 2009
1:50 pm
I agree Melvin. Woody will be his own judge & jury. He has a team full of vets with a couple of young players sprinkled in. Bibby, JJ & Al Horford are players that any coach would like to have. Josh & Marvin have been tutored exclusively by Woody since they came into the league. Woody has had 4 1/2 years to mold them into players that fit his system. If they continue to underperform or won’t buy into Woodys system then either the players or coach needs to go.
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Najeh Davenpoop
January 13th, 2009
5:00 pm
Bargnani still plays zero defense. If you want to trade Marvin, trade him for someone who competes on both ends of the floor.
I think shifting J-Smoove back to SF will only expose his below-average ball handling skills even more and leave him guarding perimeter players too often, making it harder for him to play help defense inside where he makes the biggest impact. And if Bargnani is gonna be on the floor, J-Smoove’s help defense will be more important than ever.
The roster is not what needs to change. If Mike Woodson would get the Hawks to push the ball more, none of these roster issues would be a big deal. I’m never a fan of changing personnel because the coach isn’t good enough to use them properly.
If any personnel move should be made it should be bench-related. I’d be open to, for example, trading Flip Murray for DeSagana Diop. Yeah, the Hawks need more size, but Bargnani is not the answer.
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richbrave
January 13th, 2009
5:29 pm
SAUTEE:
Low humor? How about thong low? drMARYb, where are you.
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richbrave
January 13th, 2009
5:32 pm
Hey doc and H.B.:
You bums are the worst grammerians I ever red.
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doc
January 13th, 2009
6:35 pm
richbrave are you talking about my age again?
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Big Ray
January 13th, 2009
9:04 pm
Game time. It has to be tonight. If not, then it doesn’t happen. The Hawks have to get back on track NOW. Or continue to spiral. Sure, a three game losing streak is not cause for panic or worry, but if you want to climb your way out of a hole, do you go lie down and take a nap? Or do you start clawing at the walls?
Now or never. Don’t compete tonight, and the wolves come out. None of the teams we visit out in the West can be taken for granted. Not even the Clippers. Game time. Let’s do this.
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Don!
January 13th, 2009
9:34 pm
Ray, it looks like our Hawks are Dancing With Wolves.
Or maybe playing like wolves … the T-Wolves, and that ain’t good.
Not good at all.
Later,
Don!
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Don!
January 13th, 2009
9:39 pm
31 -16, Suns killing Hawks at the end of the 1st. Josh gets rejected by Amare with 2.5 seconds to go, and that’s a good metaphor of the game so far.
Ladies and gentlemen, your Atlanta Hawks.
I think I’m going to go throw up now.
Later,
Don!
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richbrave
January 13th, 2009
10:03 pm
‘Zup doctor in the house? Makers Mark night. Big meeting today with the Pres. of the U of R. We’re collaberating on a portion of his next book. I’m a happy man in one sense, but really bummed at seeing the HAWKS in WIZARDS mode. What did WOODSON do, show our heros a tape of a LIZARDS game and say “play like this?”
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Don!
January 13th, 2009
10:10 pm
50 – 46 at the half.
And we had an Acie sighting before the late fourth quarter too … coincidence?
Later,
Don!
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Big Ray
January 13th, 2009
10:20 pm
After an dismal first quarter, the Hawks get the motor purring in the second, outscoring Phoenix 30-19. I was beginning to despair.
Keys to the surge include better defense (of course), and smarter offense.
One of the biggest differences is something my man SAUTEE brought up. Flip Murray is doing what he should have been doing all along: taking a few steps inside the arc and hitting the mid-range jumper. Not only is it more effective, but he looks comfortable doing it. That makes all the difference. No reckless turnover-laden drives to the basket. No impossible fadeaways against opposing SFs and PFs. No impromptu 3s without his feet being set.
It’s a good thing Marvin and Zaza are playing with inspiration on the glass, collecting 7 rebounds apiece. Josh Smith isn’t doing diddly-squat on either end. And he’s shooting as bad as JJ and Bibby. His body language tells me he’s very unhappy. Dude needs to snap the heck out of it. Where, oh where, is the guy we had back in the season’s first 5 games?
Speaking of Zaza, I’m proud of the guy. Hell of an effort out there tonight with 8 points and 7 boards, playing against Shaq and Co.
We finished the half well. Now we need to get out on a good run to start the third quarter, and maintain a lead. It can be done. It must be done. Or we will waltz our sorry butts into two losses right after that against subpar teams. Mark THAT down.
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Big Ray
January 13th, 2009
10:37 pm
Here we go AGAIN…
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Big Ray
January 13th, 2009
10:38 pm
Never thought I’d say this, but can we PLEASE put Law and Flip back in?
Bibby and JJ are getting overrun on defense, and aren’t giving us a single thing on offense. This is ridiculous. And we now have more turnovers than assists. That’s an easy way to lose.
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HB Ando
January 13th, 2009
11:57 pm
1-5 in January. Hmm.
Can’t really lean too hard on a six-game stretch, but that was true when they started 6-0 at the beginning of the season.
I will say that the same flaws that were suggested, pre-season, by folks like me, are the exact same flaws that are being exposed during this stretch (brief?) of futility.
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Big Ray
January 14th, 2009
12:03 am
Starting backcourt (2 players): 38 shots, 10 of them made.
Starting frontcourt (3 players): 38 shots, 19 of them made.
We keep doing this…why?
10 assists, all game long. 8 turnovers. That is not a good margin by any stretch of the imagination. And here’s the deal: if we aren’t careful, we will get whooped by Golden State and L.A. as well. Golden State is always a threat to run you out of the gym, and they can make shots. L.A. has a few youngsters who are on the rise and very hungry. Now is not the time for a let-down but we’ve already lost the first game in the string. Can Woody get these guys re-focused?
Can he rely on his veteran backcourt to get things going right? I’d say that is a very good question, because his veteran backcourt didn’t deliver the goods at all tonight. Having said that, Bibby played much better than Joe in the late 4th quarter crunch. Joe gave us next to nothing on both ends of the court. And I’m tired of watching him do that. He does not lead.
And we are in need of leadership. 42 minutes, but I can hardly tell you what he was doing out there during that time. I recall a couple of one-handed shots and a few rebounds. The rest is a murky blur…
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BA
January 14th, 2009
4:05 am
I noticed a concentrated effort on the part of Murray to move the ball, protect the ball, and of course score the ball. This guy would be an All-Star if they only counted his stats every other night.
Pachulia, as Ray pointed out, worked his azz off tonight on Shaq (was that Shaq?!), and contested (you know, made it harder to see) a number of the Diesel’s jumpers.
Morris looked fundamentally sound, and Law has developed a nice chemistry with Murray- guess the second team came away from the practice with something.
Overall, a great game to watch (even though it gave me heartburn). I don’t have a lot to complain about, just a tough loss to a very good Western Conference team on the road. Sometimes your star is going to miss the big shots.
Why don’t we run more slashing type plays with Williams and Smith? That would facilitate ball movement and make shots for the two of them, who are having to ad-lib the few shots they’re taking.
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G Money
January 14th, 2009
7:14 am
Hey guys,
You’re absolutely right. The bill has come due. The questions that I have are:
Do we believe JJ is burned out/disinterested/doesn’t take criticism well/is injured or is just going through a slump?
Do we believe that we can’t be successful ala Golden State with a smaller front court that retains our current players?
Whatever the backcourt woes, we’ve got to work on them. More than anything else, we’re suffering from poor shooting. Big men aside, with respectable shooting from the floor and the foul line, we’ve won at least two of the past 4 we’ve dropped (Orlando at home and PHX last night).
It would be great if Woody could conjure up some of Riley’s old motivational tricks to fire this team up. That is the missing ingredient. Yea, a big man would help – if he’s a quality big man. Don’t see many of those guys running around for little or nothing. Serviceable isn’t good enough to take us to the top.
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MannyT
January 14th, 2009
9:08 am
If you dig a little deeper into those shooting stats, Josh could be lumped in with Mike and Joe on that shooting. He was better, but not great…the 3 were a combined 19 for 60. Zaza and not-Thad (i.e. Marvin) were 10 for 16.
I would also add that the shooting 3 all had negative +/-, while Zaza who had to Superman-up against Shaq came in with the balanced 0 which I acknowledge as a major effort and positive for our depleted front court. The one starter with a + rating…not-Thad.
In fact, Marvin had a +6 rating while playing 40 minutes. Because we lost by 5 this means in the 8 minutes that he was out the Hawks were -11 as a team. Seems like not-Thad could tell several of y’all that his big bottom clearly pulled its weight against the Suns.
This allows the easy segue to Thad has a ton of potential, but RIGHT NOW, Marvin is a bigger contributor.
For this post, I’ll let the local ESPN stat geek do the heavy lifting.
Thad
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/players/hollinger?playerId=3244&action=login&appRedirect=http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/players/hollinger%3fplayerId%3d3244
not-Thad
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/players/hollinger?playerId=2797&action=login&appRedirect=http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/players/hollinger%3fplayerId%3d2797
BWAF
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Big Ray
January 14th, 2009
10:55 am
Manny,
From that perspective, you make an excellent point.
Consider a few things:
1. Josh attempted only on 3, though he did attempt some jumpers. Bibby and JJ attempted 12 threes of the 38 shots they attempted, accounting for roughly one third of their shot attempts.
2. Josh has not taken that many shots in a game all season. In fact, he’s only come close to that twice. Once against Houston (19 attempts), and once against New Jersey (18 attempts). He usually takes anywhere from 10 to 14 shots in a game. Why was this game different? Easy….
3. With the clear #1 and #2 options on offense (we are running a perimeter oriented game are we not) not getting anything done, Josh automatically tries to assume a leadership role on offense. He can do this, but certain factors have to be present for it to be effective, and we’ve seen how it can work. During that span in which he averaged roughly 21 points a game, those factors were in place:
4. Josh has to be in the right spots, whether that is cutting across the lane, running the baseline for an alley-oop, or posting up/facing up a defender for a spin move or a drive to the bucket. For that to happen, we need a few things: Josh has to recognize where his sweet spots are. Whoever is handling the ball (that would be ANYBODY in your backcourt) needs to recognize his sweet spots as well and GET HIM THE BALL IN THOSE SPOTS. Finally, coaches and players alike have to stay on him about where he is most effective if he happens to stray away from what is working for him.
5. You can lump Josh into last night’s shooting debacle except for a few things: Josh did attempt some jumpers, but he only attempted one three pointer. Bibby and Johnson attempted 12 three pointers of their 38 total shot attempts. That account for nearly a third of their shot attempts. At least Josh hit for 41% (like you say, not great). But it beats 35% and 19%….from offensive options #1 and #2, no less…..
Anyway, just a different perspective, not really an argument.
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Big Ray
January 14th, 2009
11:30 am
I see I managed to repeat myself in #5. Started writing the post one way, then changed it to something else, and forgot what I wrote in #1. Sheesh….
I don’t get the Marvin vs. Thad Young thing.
Marvin had a good game last night. Where was the complaint on him? I must have missed it.
This +/- stuff is both a blessing and a curse, and I’m leaning more towards curse. To me, it’s just yet another stat used to prove a point or disprove a point, which of course can be undone by…you guessed it…another stat.
How does it account for guys who screw up for most of the game, then win it in the end for you with a few clutch shots? I’ll bet he still gets a big fat -10 or something.
JJ shoots 19% and has the SAME +/- rating as Smith, who shoots more than twice the percentage (with nearly identical shot attempts), grabs three times as many rebounds, assist difference is negligible, and same number of turnovers….in TEN MINUTES LESS?? Explanation, please…Oh, it must have been the foul difference. JJ only had one, Smith had 4. Yeah…
And how is it that Solo and Mo Evans have the first and third worst +/- ratings for the game when they weren’t there long enough to do any real damage (okay, Solo had three fouls, but Shaq was in the game, what do you expect)?
I just don’t get the +/- stuff….I try to concentrate on who has the higher + rating and forget the rest…
But Marvin vs. Thad Young? Is this really an issue? And uh…the stat geek results were interesting. Marvin is marginally producing more than Young right now. But to read said Stat Geek’s thoughts….Thad is the one to have for the forseeable future, unless I’m mis-reading him. I don’t have a dog in this fight, as I don’t care to compare the two, feeling that we have MUCH LARGER issues.
But consider one thing: Marvin in his FOURTH year- 13.1 and 6.1. Young in his SECOND year- 13.2 and 5.0. Add to that the fact that nearly all else is equal in just about all of the categories. Marvin hits more threes, and is more accurate from that range (38% to Young’s 34%), while Young is a tad bit better overall from the field (47.9% to Marvin’s 46.7%).
The only big difference I can see is in the number of years played. And with that, all I am going to say (for the moment) is HMMMMMM…..
Don’t let Ando get ahold of this, the bill will come due part II…
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jhan
January 14th, 2009
2:18 pm
It’s not always the number of mistakes a player makes that must be noted – it’s also WHEN the player makes the mistake.
If the team is up by 10 & a player makes a bone-headed mistake it usually goes unnoticed. The same player jacks up an ill advised shot with 39 seconds in the game when we really need a bucket – that player will get criticized a lot (even if he had played well before that).
That is where Josh Smith is right now. He does so many things well during a game, but seems to continually make the “bone-headed” play at the wrong time. It seems like he takes a bad shot, throws a bad pass, dribbles the ball off his foot, forgets to box out, is late on a defensive rotation at the absolute worst times.
Everyone on the team makes these same mistakes, it just seems like Josh has a bad case of timing. Is this related to his bball IQ like some think or is it just Murphy’s law for poor Josh.
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Big Ray
January 14th, 2009
2:26 pm
Don’t know. Let’s just trade him for somebody who’s smarter.
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HB Ando
January 14th, 2009
7:08 pm
Damn, Ray, if that’s the only factor we should use in trading Smith, he could be traded for almost anyone on the blogs.
Just ask us……..
I think there’s a bit of legitimacy to the (however pointless) Marvin vs. Young discussion. Both would have been lottery picks if they had come out straight from high school. Both looked a little overrated during their freshmen years. Neither seemed to suffer much, in the eyes of NBA scouts, when they entered the draft after their first year. Marvin is longer, leading to an ongoing discussion regarding whether he’s a 3 or a 4 (answer is 3, based on his lack of post-up game and disinclination to be a rebounding force). Young is a classic 3, who’s more explosive, and who seems inclined to go to the glass a little stronger (though the RPG numbers don’t currently support that subjective opinion).
I’ll stick with what I’ve been saying for almost 4 years: before it’s all said and done, either Marvin or Josh will need to go, because they both see themselves as small forwards (even though their games are drastically different). I don’t see the Hawks giving away Josh’s unique athletic skills. And I don’t see them paying Marvin a bunch of money to stay here. Not when JJ and Horford will be coming up for extensions in the very near future.
Of course the pink elephant in the room, in my opinion, is whether JJ really intends to stay in Atlanta for the long haul. If the organization gets an inkling he won’t, it changes the dynamics of how they would treat both Marvin and Bibby (if Bibby makes it through the trade deadline).
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Big Ray
January 14th, 2009
11:07 pm
Exactly, Ando. Exactly.
Wow, Smith draws yet another charge. Must have been an accident (again). You know, him being so dumb and all.
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Big Ray
January 14th, 2009
11:08 pm
Heh. 15-12 at the start of the 2nd quarter. I’m beginning to wonder if both teams are trying to see who can play worse…
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Big Ray
January 14th, 2009
11:44 pm
Here we are at the half, against a hapless Clippers team. Maybe this is just what the doctor ordered. I sure hope so. The Clips can’t shoot, can’t score, can’t do much of anything. We lose this game, and we’ve had it. We’re up by 11. We should be able to extend that to 20 and stay ahead by double figures the rest of the night if we continue to play decent defense, and execute moderately well on offense. Of course, we expect better than “moderate”, but right now, let’s just get a win.
Numbers at the half:
Bibby and JJ: 5-14 from the field.
Marvin and Smith: 7-12 from the field. Zaza has only taken a single shot, but he’s been Hercules on the glass.
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Big Ray
January 15th, 2009
6:33 am
Pulled away in that one, and good thing, as this is not a team we should be losing to. A loss last night (or rather this morning) would have been crushing. Of course, it would have been exposing as well…
We will have to come up with a better effort vs the Warriors, as THAT team can shoot and score, and will make you pay for missed defensive assignments.
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doc
January 15th, 2009
10:54 am
yup ray under statement there. found a worse shooting and defending team to stop the run of adversity. a step in the right direction not a cure as we didnt exactly swamp a team without three potent players on the injury list in randolph, davis and kamen. imagine some nbdl teams could go=ive them a time with the construct of their team. it should have been a game where our starters got 28 minutes and bench 20 minutes much like the magic did to us last week. we have to play every game it my inclination and when we do we are competitive. woody seems to want to play to make it a one possession game every night. okay to do that in the playoffs but it will grind a team down if it is done each and every night. stress is too great.
let us see if they can pull it out one more time.
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Melvin
January 15th, 2009
11:15 am
Hey guys, add Al Thornton, Danny Granger and Rudy Gay to the list with T.Young as small forwards I would rather have than Marvin Williams.
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Melvin
January 15th, 2009
11:17 am
Oh my, how could I forget Kevin Durant…
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Rod form College Park
January 15th, 2009
2:46 pm
Melvin,
All forwards you mentioned were mentioned in my earlier post. I really can’t think of many starting small forwards in the league that I would not take over Marvin. I my estimation he is a bum, and we should get rid of him asap. If he is not wide open for a jump shot, he is useless.
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Melvin
January 15th, 2009
3:31 pm
Rod, I’m not calling Marvin a bum but I think those other guys are more of a classic 3 then Marvin. They all have the ability to shoot the 3 and put the ball on the floor to get to the rim…. Now I now one SF I may take Marvin over and that’s L.Deng. The guy is not living up to his contract at all…
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Rod form College Park
January 15th, 2009
4:57 pm
Melvin,
Money not included, would you not agree that L. Deng’s skill set is better than Marvin’s. Let’s not forget Marvin was the # 2 pick in the draft, which would be higher than every other player named. That is why I say he is a bum. For the #2 pick in the draft, you have to bring much more to the table than he does. I promise you, and this is no lie, there is a guy I play with every day in Marietta, who is about 6′5 who could bring more to the Hawks than Marvin Williams, and he can’t even make it in the NBDL.
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Don!
January 15th, 2009
7:05 pm
Man, you all are willing to give up on Marvin way too easy.
Marvin has game, it just doesn’t fit in Woody’s system as well as any of us (or Woody, or Marvin) would like. There’s about 10 teams in this league that would love to have Marvin, and would let him score 20 a game. He has that kind of talent, but he’s the poster child for what was wrong between Billy Knight and Woody.
In short, Marvin’s talents don’t fit Woody’s system. Anyone who thinks even Kevin Durant would have fared any better on the Hawks last season than Big Al needs a quick reality check.
Bottom line, you’re not going to replace Marvin on the Hawks’ roster with equivalent talent. You can look to find someone who might be a better fit in Woody’s system — but who is to say (besides Gund and the ASG) that Woody will even be here next season. Marvin can play the 2,3 and 4 positions, and in the right system — play any of them well.
So, realistically, why do you trade Marvin? There is no deal out there that makes sense on its own. None.
Now, there’s a lot of deals that would make sense in conjunction with dealing Marvin — but most of those would require blowing up the core players we have now — most likely either Bibby or JJ. As bad as the last week’s been for the Hawks, we’re actually okay. Even good teams are going to have these lulls in the season, and this is no time to grab a 500-pound rock and jump off the cliff in frustration.
Fortunately for the Hawks now, Marvin has shown enough for us to invest in — but not so much as to make him unsignable long-term in the off season. Plus, other GMs around the league know he’s likely to be more valuable than what his next paycheck would suggest — but not so much as to over pay for him. If someone like Detroit make him a Jon Koncak offer, we’d be wise to let him walk — or at least get something in a sign-and-trade.
On the other hand, if you have to move him, you probably would want to do it now — but not alone. You absolutely will not get the value needed for the long-term of the franchise by swapping him straight up for anyone who’s currently being offered. And a mid to late-first round draft pick is just a contract albatross for this team right now.
Before last year, there was talk about moving him for Aldridge — which would have been the correct move, but BK’s hands were tied because Portland wanted to use the move to dump salary as well — and the ASG opposed that. Now that deal is nowhere close to being on the table.
I think the best target for the Hawks might be someone like Chris Wilcox. It’s pretty sad when a bench player from the worst team in the league might help you, but he’s got an expiring contract at the end of the season, and he can be had for not too much — something that the ASG would likely find attractive. If nothing else, he’s a big that can run the floor. His defense is poor at times, but he’s another guy stuck playing (when he does play) in a system that doesn’t match his talents. But something tells me his skills would work with Woody.
Anyway, I’m rambling — but please, please, please don’t throw Marvin under the bus just yet. He’s got a load more talent and desire than 90% of the cats in this league, and he wants to play here. Trust me, that’s worth a lot more than anyone else you could bring in here for him. If he’s still here in two more years, you’ll see. If not, we’ll talk about letting him go in the same tones we use for not originally drafting CP3 in the first place.
Later,
Don!
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Melvin
January 15th, 2009
7:48 pm
Rod, I agree Deng skills set is better than Marvin but I think Marvin has more talent than Deng (if that make sense to ya). I think Marvin has a better overall game than Deng. He’s a better rebounder, defender and possibly 3 pt shooter. However, Deng offensive skills are far superior to Marvin at this stage but I agree with Don that Marvin best years are ahead of him. He may turn out to have a better career than Deng. Also, once Marvin is in a better offensive system (whether here in the ATL under a new coach or elsewhere) I think we will see a much improve player.
Don, what type of contract would you offer Marvin if you were the Hawks? I say 3yrs/24mil. If he’s not producing more by than, then he’s outta here…
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Big Ray
January 15th, 2009
10:17 pm
Don!
I get what you’re saying about Marvin. I agree that we shouldn’t “throw him under the bus”, as it were. The guy has talent, and he IS laboring under a coach that is not well matched with this roster.
But I have always believed that great players excel and exceed, regardless of where they are. Even when they are not living up to their potential, they are still exceeding the production of others. Marvin has not shown himself to be this kind of guy. And it’s not like Woody is the only control-oriented coach in the NBA, so we cannot continue to use that as the SOLE excuse for things like this.
On the one hand, some of us never felt like Marvin should have been drafted so high, and cannot see what was supposedly seen in him at the time. Others who disagree have presented “proof” that Marvin was thought of that highly at the time he was about to be drafted. Some, like Dominique Wilkins, said that he was one of those guys that only comes around “once every ten years.”
The people who claim thusly, and say that Marvin deserved his position in the draft, have a point. And while I don’t like to judge guys according to draft position alone (because they cannot help who drafts them where), they cannot have it both ways: if this was where he was projected, and all else is equal, then so shall he be judged by that position in the draft. But they don’t want to see it that way. Which means we should be seeing Carmelo Anthony type stats, right? Otherwise, unlike another notable #2 pick (Darko Milicic), he fails in the shadow of his draft slot.
I don’t think we should be in a blazed-up hurry to get rid of the guy. But I don’t think we’ll have much trouble replacing 13 and 6, either. And more than anything, I think we should listen to reasonable offers. 8 offers on Josh Childress were passed on while the ASG and Sund held their cards closely, grinning to themselves at the hand they figured was a house-beater…
Let’s not do that AGAIN.
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Don!
January 15th, 2009
10:21 pm
Melvin, I think the $8M is about right, but there’s no way his agent would let anyone get away with just a three year contract at that amount, especially as young as he is. I’d guess 5-years $40M as the floor, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets either a 3-year $30M offer, or a 5-year $45M offer this off season.
A lot is going to depend on what Sund and the ASG want to do with Bibby, and how we want to be setup for the Summer of 2010 … the Armageddon of all salary cap summers unless a lot of folks resign this year.
Later,
Don!
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Melvin
January 15th, 2009
11:01 pm
Don, did I just the Bulls than Deng out of the game on their final posession of regulation after he made the defensive play of the game coming up with a steal…… never mind he just hit 2 big 3’s in overtime
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Melvin
January 15th, 2009
11:02 pm
Repost with out the errors
Don, did I just see the Bulls take Deng out of the game on their final posession of regulation after he made the defensive play of the game coming up with a steal…… nevermind, he just hit 2 big 3’s in overtime
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Don!
January 16th, 2009
12:23 am
Melvin, just remember one thing about the Bulls:
Vinny Del Negro.
Let me say it again … Vinny Del Negro.
He is to NBA coaching what Harry Potter is to French cooking. Somewhere there is a village deprived of its idiot because Vinny is in Chicago.
Heck, let me say it again: Chicago Bulls head coach, Vinny Del Negro. I think Ray and Ando could use this forum to coach the Bulls for a game and do better than … Vinny Del Negro.
Seriously, we’d all just have to watch the game on NBA TV or on the web. Ray and Ando would have to have their laptops on, and just feed the guys on the court the plays we post on the blog, and the rotations we type in. Either that, or maybe the Bulls can find those elephants from the circus that picked Florida to beat Oklahoma in the NCAA BCS championship game. Heck, we’d all work for peanuts and be better for the Bulls than Vinnie Del Negro.
Later,
Don!
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Najeh Davenpoop
January 16th, 2009
12:57 am
So Don, what do you think of Vinny Del Negro?
In all seriousness, I think he’s a pretty bad coach too, but I’m no fan of that roster John Paxson has put together. They really should ship everyone but Rose out.
And for those who complain that Josh Smith doesn’t have basketball IQ — Tyrus Thomas is what Josh Smith WOULD be without basketball IQ.
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KevinA
January 16th, 2009
7:34 am
Finally the Hawks played good ball. When they hang their hat on defense they are hard to beat. Bibby and JJ kept their shot attempts down and their assists up. You can’t win this this league shooting so many jumpers. When Marvin and Josh drive the ball the defense seems to be better. Without Hartford the bench is getting a chance to play more. They have responded with good play even in their losses.
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Melvin
January 16th, 2009
9:37 am
Don,
I won’t dare complain about Vinny when we still have Woody. By the way, Woody is in his 5th yr of being the head guy and it’s Vinny 1st. Maybe Vinny will get better with experience. Not sure what can help Woody besides a hammer to the head…
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Don!
January 16th, 2009
12:06 pm
The difference between Woody and Vinny is that (and I can’t believe I’m saying this …) Woody has a clue about spacing, dribble penetration and actually setting up the outside shots in his offenses, along with a really good defensive scheme when the players aren’t too tired or whatever (and sometimes Josh defines the word, whatever …) to create a lot of turnovers and keep opposing teams to one shot per trip down the floor.
Vinny, on the other hand, would make your high school coach cringe if someone on TV would break down the tapes. No spacing, no offensive lanes, their sets are woefully inconsistent. A lot of times, I see pick up teams in the gym with more offensive continuity. On the other hand, I do have to agree with the criticism of Paxton for a part of that — because I really can’t figure out how that team is built to win consistently.
In that regard, Woody and Vinny are alike — both have teams that are not exactly built to their strengths in coaching. But, at least Woody (as stubborn as he is) has a plan and a team mold he’s trying (for five years now) to make work. And I can see the effort in the players to make it work. It’s just that sometimes we can all see where he’s trying to put round pegs into square holes — especially at the 5.
I just don’t see the same effort from Vinny’s Bulls — and they may have more talent. Plus, I’m always hearing how he’s ‘lost’ the team in the locker room — and that’s never a good sign in a player-driven league like the NBA.
Later,
Don!
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Melvin
January 16th, 2009
2:48 pm
Don, I really hadn’t followed the Bulls that closely to even make any type of analysis on Vinny the coach. As for Woody, I can’t understand what he trying to accomplish. I know he want his blueprint to be good defense but what in the heck is his trying to do offensive. What type are team are we? It seems he prefer the halfcourt game but we have little to no inside play. And I think every coach in the league has figure out how to defend the IsoJoe play. And his player rotations, we won’t even go there b/c that topic has been well documented on these blogs. Not ever coach is ment to be a headcoach and I think Woody is the picture child for that phrase…