Atlanta Braves: Bobby Cox vs. Lou Piniella – Which managerial approach works best?
Aye, Skipper: Sweet Lou or Bobby? (AP / AJC)
When AJC columnist Mark Bradley asked readers if the Braves needed to say goodbye to longtime manager Bobby Cox, he found that although most fans who responded to his poll said they would like a change at the team’s helm, it wasn’t by the large margin he’d anticipated.
“Sixty percent of roughly 2,000 respondents said the Braves do in fact need a new manager. I figured it would be 70-30, maybe even 80-20,” Bradley wrote in his June 23 blog.
And with the Braves at 35-40, in fourth place in the NL East and five games behind the division-leading Phillies, many AJC readers have complained on our blogs and in the Braves Vent about Cox’s calm, cool and collected “player’s manager” style; the yelling and insults appear reserved for umpires. Try to remember the last time you read a story including the phrase “Braves clubhouse controversy.” But some fans say the Braves lack fire, as does Cox, and a less player-oriented manager must take over for Atlanta to return to its once-dominant form.
Now consider the Chicago Cubs, just one year removed from postseason play and a 97-win season, who have the look of a team in utter disarray. With fiery skipper Lou Piniella heading up a squad that started 2009 expected to once again contend for the NL Central title, which they took in ‘08, Chicago is 35-37 — squarely in the middle of its division pack — and recent clubhouse infighting hasn’t gone unnoticed by the local media.
Chicago Tribune columnist Phil Rogers says it’s time for high-spirited Cubs ace Carlos Zambrano to go, following his meltdown against the White Sox during interleague play Sunday. Rogers also points out the “Cubs’ sorry display of the previous two days, when Piniella called [outfielder] Milton Bradley ‘a piece of [bleep]‘ and then got upset that the confidentiality of the clubhouse had been breached, allegedly by an unknown White Sox employee.”
YOU TELL US: Which managerial style do you think works best in baseball — Cox’s ‘player’s manager’ style or Piniella’s calls it as he sees it manner? Who would you rather have managing the Braves, if it were between the two — Cox or Piniella? And why?
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133 comments Add your comment
Dale Wolfe
June 29th, 2009
1:34 pm
All I know is, the day Bobby isn’t managing the Braves, will likely be my last day as well. He has earned the right to manage them as long as he likes and is reasonably successful.
submariner
June 29th, 2009
1:43 pm
I’d take Pinella over Cox. I think that through the hay day of division titles and post season appearances, it’s not unfair to say that Cox should shoulder the blame for so many missed opportunities at a title. Had it not been for Tom Glavine’s gem and Dave Justice’s solo shot in the 1995 WS, there’d be a big goose egg in the winning column. They should have beat Toronto, they should have beat the Yankees and Cox’s inability to manage the close games is why they continue to faulter. Cox will never concede to play small ball. He continues to wait on the home run, and it hardly ever materializes. At least Pinella will call out guys, who I might add, get paid a boat load of money to perform. He’s not affraid of a multi-million dollar star and will let him know it when he’s stinkin it up out there.
Ward
June 29th, 2009
1:45 pm
Bobby is a Hall of Famer..that said…he must retire after this year because we are squandering a nice pool of talent(especially pitching) that is not reaching its potential. Microscosm point over weekend: sacrifice bunting late in game against Wakefield and Veritek when those two are the easiest to steal against in all of baseball!!!We gave up an out when precious few remained. Our pitchers are doing yoeman work yet see hitters fail to execute basic hitting details. Consider the baserunning and the fielding and you have underachieving..who should be responsible????Ward
hhmmm
June 29th, 2009
1:56 pm
why does it have to be one or the other? There are times to be cool and there are times to yell and show some fire. LaRussa is both and has won more games than Cox. A good manager does what he needs to do to motivate his players.
MiltonDawg
June 29th, 2009
1:56 pm
Bobby will always have my respect..but it’s time for a new approach now. His style worked in the 90s but not anymore. We need someone younger who can relate with the players and show some emotion.
r martin die hard braves fan
June 29th, 2009
1:57 pm
bobby has a place here in atl. as long as he wants.. the hardass aproach is not the way. we need 3 hitters and to lose our ss. attitudes has no place on our team!!!!!!
richbrave
June 29th, 2009
1:58 pm
Oh, hell no. TERRY FRANCONA is more my style. Personally, since I observed him last year in RICHMOND, I prefer DAVE BRUNDIGE at GWINNETT.
Average Joe
June 29th, 2009
2:01 pm
We just need to learn to hit as a team… and do the little things that make teams great.
I know Francour is growing as a batter – I mean, i actually watched him take a 3rd strike for the first time ever — he is getting more patient. But, why 3 years to get there. Hitting a baseball is something everyone can’t do, having played college against major league pitchers i know it is extremely hard. But being smart is not. if the count is 0,0 why swing at a ball over your head. If it is 3-2, why swing at a ball that is 2 feet outside. Why try to pull the outside pitch every time. (A la andrew jones).
Second, is the little things that teams like Boston does. For example yesterday we had 1 out and could have ended the game on a double play — but Youkilis was fighting like mad to stay alive — instead of making it easy for Kelly Johnson to tag him out, he got in a run down and ended up scoring. I see our guys loafing, and that would have been a double play to end the game if chipper or any of our guys had been running at first.
jeffrey d
June 29th, 2009
2:06 pm
He has earned the right to manage them as long as he likes and is reasonably successful.
Reasonably successful? Have you not been watching the past 3+ years? We’ve been bringing up the rear in the NL East consistantly and there’s several problems that point to coaching (including TONS of questionable decisions).
For all you blindly loyal fans, Bobby’s style of managing is not working with this team. He’s the “grandfather” (as Chipper put it) when we need someone who will step on the players’ toes and give them a butt-kicking now and then (figurative, of course).
Ramblinwreck1378
June 29th, 2009
2:08 pm
In case you moron’s haven’t been watching the braves… Bobby played small ball against the red sox. The braves were 0-21 with runners in scoring position against the Red Sox, or something like that. Bobby can’t hit it, field it, stay healthy, etc. He’s a manager, and when it comes down to it, the guys like Jeff Francouer and Kelly Johnson have to get the job done at the plate and in the field. Neither of those guys are worth a chinese taxi driver, so get off Bobby and start getting on the players, and start the discussion on when we’re going to let go of these losers who are the daily 1-2-3 at the bottom of the lineup.
Sanjaya and Rosie O'Donell Love Georgia Tech
June 29th, 2009
2:11 pm
I like Bobby, but why he continues to play Kelly Johnson baffles me. Bobby has been great for Atlanta and the Braves, but I am afraid our ship needs a new skipper.
Eric
June 29th, 2009
2:13 pm
It’s not the managerial style. It’s the managerial MOVES. Bobby will bring in a pitcher for a single batter. It’s not a lot of innings, but the guy has to warm up and that wears down these relievers. Then he doesn’t teach fundamentals – hitting to the opposite side, moving the runner over, taking the extra base, actually STEALING a base. Our players are always worn out or regressing. Frustrating.
bali
June 29th, 2009
2:14 pm
no way bobby all the way
Eric
June 29th, 2009
2:16 pm
Had to add another thing that frustrates me about Braves hitters. We don’t work the count!!! We swing at the first pitch a ton. If we are up against a pitcher like Johan or Beckett, we’re probably not going to score a lot of runs. So it would make sense to make them throw a lot of pitches. If we can get them up to 100 pitches by the 6th inning and force them to put in a reliever, we have a chance.
Colt 4 Heisman
June 29th, 2009
2:17 pm
Kelly Johnson has pictures of Bobby Cox drinking and beating his wife. That is why he is still in the lineup.
Mike S
June 29th, 2009
2:17 pm
BOBBY
Sanjaya and Rosie O'Donell Love Georgia Tech
June 29th, 2009
2:19 pm
Colt 4 Heisman. Wow, you are an angry man. Go back to Texas you Homer!
Ramblinwreck1378
June 29th, 2009
2:19 pm
Why should Bobby have to teach the fundamentals? It’s the MAJOR FREAKING LEAGUE. They should have learned the fundamentals in teeball/little league/high school/college/rookie ball/low a/high a/double a/triple a. Not when you’re in the pros. I’m sorry, but if these guys don’t know the fundamentals now, they need to get out of the game.
Roger Dorn
June 29th, 2009
2:22 pm
Why do baseball managers wear uniforms?
im4ball
June 29th, 2009
2:24 pm
If I HAD to take one or the other, it would be Cox. He does treat his players like men and the players like to play for him.
However, the fact is that Cox is still not a great in-game manager. Contrary to what some think, Cox does not play “small ball” enough. Yes, the players need to execute but maybe they also need to be replaced and that is something the manager has direct control over. There is such a thing as being too nice to the players and Cox is. He also has very poor feel for when to pull a pitcher or leave him in the game. Cox also is a strict adherant to the left/ right rule which to me is just plain wrong. Yes there are times to do it but there are also times to leave a player in the game when they are hot or leaving a pitcher in the game when doing well and not pull them just because there is a hitter coming up who bats opposite.
So, yes, Cox is very much and upgrade or Pinnella but I still think we need someone new at the helm.
Style vs Results
June 29th, 2009
2:28 pm
Style only counts when you’re above .500!
submariner
June 29th, 2009
2:28 pm
Ramblinwreck1378, one game of attempted small ball does not make a season. The only guy you can count on bunting on a daily basis is who ever is pitching that night. If Johnson and Francouer can’t hit it out, then you can at least have them hitting in situations to get the runners over. They’re called productive outs. Although, I do agree that Johnson should be traded to Montreal for a fungo bat and a bucket of BP balls.
Larry
June 29th, 2009
2:30 pm
Another absolutely stupid pole by the AJC! What an absolutely wussy and non courageous way to ask “is it time for the Braves to move in a new direction?” But no, you had to compare two individuals: one in a persistent vegetative state (Cox) and the other an “open Mic(Piniella)!” And, how telling isn’t it that not a single sportswriter had the courage to be associated with this article! Did anyone else notice this? Grrrrr!!!!!
However, this is progress and I’ll take it!
Without question the answer is: THE BRAVES NEED A NEW MANAGER–YEARS AGO!
To an ad nauseam degree have I discussed the horrific postseason decisions, the wait and see approach, and the 1-14 record in the last postseason game despite numerous times being afforded the best talent in the game. However, here is the best reason today–no one cares anymore! That’s called “indifference” or “apathy” and this is more difficult to sell against than anger! Check the number of Braves fans in attendance against the Yankees and Red Sox? We don’t care anymore!
I’ll speak for myself. I’ve been a season ticket holder (Hank Aaron Section) for over 20 seasons and where I once attended dozen of games a year I now may attend 2-3 games this year only to take my two daughters to a baseball game(They are 10 and 7 years old so I pretend to be having a good time). Why? The approach to baseball by Bobby Cox is the most boring and predictable approach in the game and I can’t even sit through a game anymore! No speed, contact or situational hitting, no calculated gambling, no emotion, nothing!
Personally, even if in my heart I truly had no hope of a pennant, I’d rather drive to Turner Field and watch a bunch of new, raw players playing their heats out and hustling, and a manager that is fearless at trying to help them pull out a game than to watch this group of free swinging hackers who pout, won’t bother to back up a play, and a manager who just sits in the dugout and shakes his head,=.
I can only speak for myself, but I’m an Atlanta native, loyal to my teams and city, have spent nearly $200,000.00 for prime tickets and refreshments at Turner Field the past 20 years, and still have hope, but it is past time to ask Bobby to step aside and let another person have their shot at piloting this team and I will not buy another ticket after this season until then!
I’m also a Falcon Season ticket holder (row one, lower level, 40 Yard line) and I cannot wait to watch this team that is coached oh so well, regardless of there record! What do you think Mike Smith would do to the pouters, slackers, or whiners? Well, check out who MeHall, Crumpler, Brooking and others play for now!
Larry
Steve
June 29th, 2009
2:30 pm
roger dorn- i’ve often wondered why football coaches don’t suit up with the team as does baseball
double d
June 29th, 2009
2:33 pm
Sugar or salt it takes both.The team will do as the leader does.You could take Bobby out of all games and it would make little difference.We need true management,not sideline barking.
Larry
June 29th, 2009
2:34 pm
Sorry for the grammar. Too angry to proof!
TedTurner
June 29th, 2009
2:35 pm
Bobby Cox cannot manage big games, he chokes!!!!!!!! Just that about it what does it take to be a players mangaer? Baby the players and don’t get on them for bad defense or playing with no heart. This current team is made up of lazy, heartless, don’t know how to play the game and don’t care players
double d
June 29th, 2009
2:36 pm
Sugar and salt are both needed.The team will reflect the leader/management.Cox is too mild.Need true management not cheer-leading. Double d
Bill
June 29th, 2009
2:39 pm
Mayber the Red Sox need to get rid of Francona – they only scored two runs in two games… Whoops – I guess that’s what the Braves scored too! Both must have lousy managers.
Carnac the Competent
June 29th, 2009
2:39 pm
The ANSWER is: “The Slugger’s Wife”
—————————————
The QUESTION: What is the nickname within the Braves organization for Mrs. Bobby Cox ?
Lawrence
June 29th, 2009
2:41 pm
I like Bobby’s style much better. Look at what the Braves was before him.It proves nice guys can win
Horner's Corner
June 29th, 2009
2:42 pm
Is there a rule stating managers must wear a uniform?? Connie Mack managed for about 50 years and he never wore one. I would be OK with the Braves keeping Bobby if he started wearing a straw hat and suspenders and chewed on a hay seed.
Ralph
June 29th, 2009
2:42 pm
It has nothing to do with style, it’s all about management decisions, I know nothing about Lou but but when it comes to in game decisions, making the lineup, when to set players down and winning ball games Bobby is the worse I have ever seen, If he is such a great manager as MB thinks why can’t he win without Smoltz, Glavin, Maddox, and Leo, they deserve all the credit for all those championships, not Bobby.
jmart1951
June 29th, 2009
2:43 pm
The question does not reflect whether or not the fans want Cox replaced or not. Personally, I like Cox’s style when it comes to treating the players like human beings.
What I don’t like is Cox’s inability to figure out the best lineup and batting order from game to game.
What I don’t like is how Cox uses his bullpen and the resulting strain it puts on our best relievers.
Cox is not with it this year. There are many examples but the one that is the most embarrassing is the double switch he pulled one inning but forgot to reverse the batting order so that the pitcher had to bat the next inning instead of the new position player. Just basic stuff; but, Cox forgot.
It is time for Cox to go. Look for a new manager with his temperment but one that has a better grasp on in game situations, handling the pitchers and identifying the best nine to take the field on any given night and what order they should hit.
midnite
June 29th, 2009
2:48 pm
Uh, Larry you had me until you said twenty years of Turner Field. The “Ted” has only been in existance since the inaugural season of 1997.
Mine This Bird
June 29th, 2009
2:48 pm
Wow Larry you’re so cool spending all that money on tickets. We’re so impressed with your obviously high salary. Thanks for sharing that with us.
country boy
June 29th, 2009
2:49 pm
I have a strong opinion that – fair or unfair – managers have a shelf life with their team and originization. Fact is that Bobby should not be managing the Braves now based on last several years results. He has what I will called ” tenured loyalty” which means he has done well in the past however is no longer graded on his results. I may be wrong but if the Braves had Pinella as mgr. from now to seasons end I think they would have a chance at this weak division. As I have posted before – If you are dating Susan Boyle and a friend fixes you up with a blind date then you take it as you know things cann’t get worse. Braves need a new leader.
Larry
June 29th, 2009
2:50 pm
Guys,
Keep it baseball specific!
No one is more vocal or adamant than I about the need to move in a different direction. As a paying customer I pay for this right to demand excellence! However, those of you who keep bringing up one’s personal past (I don’t even think of this stuff when discussing the Braves Manager) are doing nothing but creating a distraction to a baseball discussion. In fact, by doing so you are devaluing your opinion and interfering with the rest of us who want a different direction.
So, knock it off, grow up, and remember Bobby’s wife openly admitted she over reacted and has long since forgiven Bobby for an alcohol influenced stupid, angry moment. I’ve had my stupid moments and so have you so knock it off and let it go! If this was a repeated offense that’s one thing–this happened what, 15 years ago?
Good grief!
tim
June 29th, 2009
2:51 pm
Bobby has been great just look at the resume. Now i still insist we one ONLY one WS in spite of him. We do need some new fresh blood not Pendleton lets get that out of the way now. But has anyone noticed that Bobby seems to have forgotten how to manage ever since Leo left. Could be something there. Ned Yost is sitting home doing nothing thats my choice
Larry
June 29th, 2009
2:54 pm
midnite,
Okay, goober, including Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium! That better?
Mine This Bird,
Utter, unabashed Jealousy?
Horner's Corner
June 29th, 2009
2:55 pm
Sorry dad… I mean Larry. But since you brought it up, are you suggesting it wasn’t Bobby fault, but the alcohols?
Roger Dorn
June 29th, 2009
2:55 pm
Larry, can you stop taking up so much room on my computer screen, with your novels.
Ramblinwreck1378
June 29th, 2009
2:56 pm
So Ralph, Bobby Cox deserves no credit for 14 straight division titles?
Sanjaya and Rosie O'Donell Love Georgia Tech
June 29th, 2009
2:57 pm
Larry,
I would not say “We needed a new coach years ago.” We should start with a new hitting coach. TP could not teach a tee baller to hit a beach ball.
Also,
No need to get angry. It is all fun and games.
Roger Dorn
June 29th, 2009
2:57 pm
Enter your comments here
CLIFF
June 29th, 2009
2:59 pm
Yes the Braves do need a new manager and have needed one for sometime.Bobby Cox is a lousy strategist and does not know when to bench a starter or when to pull a pitcher.I wish Joe Torre was available.I saw him win with some sorry Braves teams with pitchers that were ready for a geriatric home.Atlanta should have never fired him the first time here.
Lem Barker
June 29th, 2009
2:59 pm
Bobby’s had a HOF career, not sure he would have lasted anywhere else, i.e. NY or Philly. That said, a truly great coach puts his team in position to win by playing to their strengths. Why not, when we have baserunners, try to steal bases with Yunel, McLouth, Prado, etc…instead of waiting on the homer. We don’t have anyone that is going to hit that homer, adn their we were against Bos waiting on the basepaths for the long ball, or sacrificing instead of just stealing against Varitek? Finally, why is Prado not playing 2nd everyday? Why is Bobby so reluctant to sit KJ for good? He is absolutely killing us offensively, especially batting second. Absolutely mind boggling.
Roger Dorn
June 29th, 2009
3:02 pm
The Braves should sign Barry Bonds.
Sanjaya and Rosie O'Donell Love Georgia Tech
June 29th, 2009
3:04 pm
You may run like Mays, but you hit like S*#%!
Sonny Clusters
June 29th, 2009
3:06 pm
I played some ball and won a state champion and Coach was always nice to us and Coach would drive us home sometimes if we was late and it was getting dark. Bobby Cox don’t look like Coach or coach like Coach and I dont think hes won any state champions but I know he goes to the playoffs and gets beat in five and Coach always won those and Coach was more like Lou Pinella than Bobby Cox. When we was playing ball together I always liked Coach pretty much and Jeff did too but mostly he listened to Mr Taber that owned the Dairy Queen and gave us free ice cream when we was state champion. Mr Taber played a little ball too when he was in school.
JEZ
June 29th, 2009
3:07 pm
yea I think Torre is the model here winning all of those championships with the yankees and their teams were not any better than ours of those days. He’s also a players manager but he does not put up with players lacking hustle and heart. He also knows how to manage his bullpen and not wear them out. We need someone with his demeanor to lead us cause Cox doesn’t have that, nor any of our other coaching staff
HERBIE
June 29th, 2009
3:07 pm
you are all cry babies
braveshater
June 29th, 2009
3:09 pm
Bobby Coxcks sucks coxcks. Take a walk. 1 for fucin 15.
Roger Dorn
June 29th, 2009
3:09 pm
Sonny Clusters……
What in the hell are you talking about?
Had a little bit to drink today?
Ramblinwreck1378
June 29th, 2009
3:12 pm
I think we should blog in person, that way we know who actually knows their stuff and who searches on the internet for facts and arbitrarily types them down.
Sanjaya and Rosie O'Donell Love Georgia Tech
June 29th, 2009
3:15 pm
Ramblinwreck1378. Here is a fact for you: TECH SUCKS!
Roger Dorn
June 29th, 2009
3:16 pm
Sanjaya and Rosie O’Donell Love Georgia Tech……….Did you have to look that up on the internet ?
Roger Dorn
June 29th, 2009
3:17 pm
Tech Sucks…….I looked it up on the internet.
Sanjaya and Rosie O'Donell Love Georgia Tech
June 29th, 2009
3:17 pm
I actually googled Georgia Tech football and I received a picture of Reggie Ball with the words below: EPIC FAILURE
Sonny Clusters
June 29th, 2009
3:18 pm
I have not had a drink because good athletes like me and Jeff dont do that and thats why we was state champion back when we was playing ball together. If Lou Pinella was coaching like our Coach and was coaching the Braves I think it could help Jeff get on base some more because getting hit in the head to get on base is going to take its tole on him before the season is out and he cracks a helmet and gets hurt.
Ramblinwreck1378
June 29th, 2009
3:20 pm
Back to the Braves… You douchtool Georgia fans can never stay on topic.
Ralph
June 29th, 2009
3:21 pm
ramblinwreck, absoluely I mean what I said, a dummy could have won those titles with that pitching staff and come to think of it, A DUMMY DID.
Old Number Six
June 29th, 2009
3:22 pm
With so much talent over the years that Bobby Cox has been the Atlanta Skipper you would think there would be more championships. He does not fire them up to win the big ones. His laid back approach with the players has hurt more than it has helped.
Coach (2010 or Bust)
June 29th, 2009
3:24 pm
I wouldn’t want either one of them. Time for Pendleton to take over.
midnite
June 29th, 2009
3:26 pm
To be so wealthy and worldly Larry sure is a bitter, angry sort. Larry does not always drink beer, but when he does it’s Dos XXX.
Matty
June 29th, 2009
3:26 pm
Don Mattingly? Has studied under Torre for some time now.
The Tribe Leader
June 29th, 2009
3:29 pm
Time for Pendleton to take over?
I would prefer Ned Yost or Buck Showalter.
Ramblinwreck1378
June 29th, 2009
3:30 pm
Since Pendleton is such a good hitting coach…
cvbraves
June 29th, 2009
3:35 pm
Believe I saw on ESPN where fans voted for the top manager and players over the past 20 years. Believe Bobby Cox was voted top manager over LaRussa and Torre.
Bobby Cox will be the very best manager the Braves could have until he decides to retire…which I hope is still years away…and I wish AJC didn’t feel it necessary to publish such nonsense in response to bloggers — most of whom never played a major/minor game in their lives.
Larry
June 29th, 2009
3:35 pm
Thanks to the readers who are responding intelligently to this, regardless of your persuasion. It’s most unfortunate that our comments are too often sandwiched between so many unemployed landscape artists too lazy to get out and look for a job today.
This is kind of like trying to have an adult conversation while a bunch of bratts are screaming for their toys or bottles!
The Tribe Leader
June 29th, 2009
3:35 pm
Even if Pendleton was a good hitting coach, does that translate into a good manager. I think the goal of changing the manager would be a different voice, a different attitude. Pendleton would not provide this.
old number seven
June 29th, 2009
3:38 pm
terry pendleton has to go we make no adjustment’s in the batter’s box and there is no fire no where on the team and bobbycox is no better
TRobb
June 29th, 2009
3:41 pm
I think sometimes you need a new voice.
Bobby has been great for a long time and wears well because he’s a terrific manager of people. His decision to never handle things through the press seems like a simple code but most other managers can’t do it.
My sense is that he’s got his hands full now with a leadership void – Chipper is more Indian than chief, McLouth too new, McCann still young – that used to be taken care of by veterans. Also, Leo Mazzone could be the bad cop to Bobby’s good cop.
I think these guys need a kick in the a$$, some fire, and Bobby is not inclined – and is too old – to do it.
I can’t believe all the calls that have gone against them this year and the foolish play in the field by Escobar, Anderson, Johnson and Francoeur. Bobby’s not exerting anything on behalf of the team or disciplining guys by letting them ride pine (”The bench is a great motivator.” – Steve Spurrier). Well, he does with Escobar, but he keeps running Kelly, Jeff and Garret out there. There was a time when he’d be embarrassed by all the mental mistakes his team makes regularly now.
Bobby needs to go up to the farm and enjoy himself. Let a younger guy with a little fire take the reins. Not Piniella, too old. The team needs a new voice.
"Chef" Tim Dix
June 29th, 2009
3:41 pm
Freddie Gonzalez will be the next skipper of the Braves WHEN Bobby calls his own out.
midnite
June 29th, 2009
3:45 pm
Thanks Larry I appreciate the props. How does one become “the most interesting man in the world”?
Larry
June 29th, 2009
3:46 pm
cvbraves,
Well, I played 9 years reaching a pretty high level! However, that poll to which you refer is most vague and too nonspecific!
The poll asks whom would you prefer to play for, and you’re correct, most named Bobby Cox. But, if you could play a kid’s game, get paid millions to do so, and could play for perhaps the most easy going person that would continue to let you fail and fail at hitting or pitching thus getting you more at bats or innings pitched to hit your bonus, who would you choose? I would choose Bobby Cox too!
However, were you to ask me a more meaningful question like “if the postseason started today and you could pick the best manager to make the very best decisions during a must win game or short series that would propel you to a World Series Championship, who would you pick as your manager?” I can tell you, if asked this question Bobby Cox would not finish anywhere near at the top of the list!
Would you answer “Bobby Cox” to this question?
The Tribe Leader
June 29th, 2009
3:47 pm
I wouldn’t necessarily say there isn’t any fire. There just appears to be a low baseball IQ collectively on this team.
ray k.
June 29th, 2009
3:48 pm
2014: Manager Freddie Gonzalez. Hitting coach: Chipper Jones. Pitching coach: John Smoltz.
Bobby Cox fishing.
Alex
June 29th, 2009
3:51 pm
Just a thought on a better pole for this newspaper. Who here believes major league baseball has given this franchise a fair chance at competing with teams like the yankees and red sox when they are currently owned by a media group based in Denver Colorado?
Ryan Johns
June 29th, 2009
3:51 pm
Bobby has had a mediocre team, at best, the past few years. We could have Larussa managing this team and they would still lose.
Larry
June 29th, 2009
3:55 pm
Ryan,
Losing doesn’t bother me as much as you’d think; not hustling, pouting, indifference, or making the necessary in-game decisions to win causes me heartburn!
Larry
June 29th, 2009
3:56 pm
midnite,
If you want to touch it all you need to do is ask!
WilliamG
June 29th, 2009
3:58 pm
I guess this is the new world where everyone – regardless of the amount of knowledge they have about a given subject – is equal. Here we have a bunch of folks who have never played professional baseball, never managed an inning, and all of a sudden the reader is supposed to care what they think about the manager of the Braves.
I know, from reading, what players and managers think across baseball. He’s one helluva manager who has, at times, created winning teams where others would have failed. And, when he’s had the horses, he’s won it all. Do you think Cubs fans would trade records over the years?
But this new world that I mentioned must be working, here I am reading what various idiots think when it comes to how teams should be managed. In my defense, some of the comments are fairly amusing.
The Tribe Leader
June 29th, 2009
3:59 pm
This current Braves team is not a mediocre team. They are actually a pretty talented team. They just perform to the level they are capable of. Which forces you to point the finger at the manager.
Spider29
June 29th, 2009
4:01 pm
Bobby Cox, no question. Respects his players, fans and the game of baseball. Hall of Fame credentials. I’d take him over Lou any day.
gboh
June 29th, 2009
4:01 pm
Of all the major sports, baseball is the most pronounced example of a fundamental principle – talent wins, managers don’t. The reason the Braves won is because they had better talent than other teams (aka, three hall-of-fame pitchers). The reason the Braves are not winning is because they don’t have the talent (shutout-shutout-2 runs-1 run, etc.). Joe Torre won in New York because he had the best talent. When the Red Sox came along with better talent Joe wasn’t so special. Now he’s winning with the Dodgers because they have a wealth of young talent now coming into its own. Take all the winning managers over the last few decades, compare them, and you’ll find they are as different as night and day with only one fundamental similarity – their teams had the best talent for that particular time.
Hitting and pitching coaches, however, are quite a different story. They DO make a difference – namely Dave Duncan in St. Louis!
gboh
June 29th, 2009
4:04 pm
Hey WilliamG – I guess now you’re one of “the idiots” too
The Tribe Leader
June 29th, 2009
4:04 pm
WilliamG
Can you take the self righteous act somewhere else please.
The Tribe Leader
June 29th, 2009
4:06 pm
gboh
You couldn’t be more wrong. If all it took was talent, the Yankees would win every year.
Sanjaya and Rosie O'Donell Love Georgia Tech
June 29th, 2009
4:06 pm
Our pitching is phenomenal. The problem is we have no hitting. As far as Bobby Cox is concerned, we would probably have the same record with any head coach right now. You cannot expect the Braves to win if we cannot bring RISP home. I appreciate Bobby’s loyalty, but the most talented player needs to be on the field in order to win.
CoastDog
June 29th, 2009
4:09 pm
I’ll take Cox over Loopin’ Ella any day.
midnite
June 29th, 2009
4:10 pm
Larry I thought you were of that perversion, oops I meant persuasion. You just couldn’t keep it in the bag could you. Didn’t you say you played girls slo-pitch for nine years?
Adam
June 29th, 2009
4:11 pm
Managers must blend with their players’ personalities.
Cox has obviously worked better with the talent he has gotten.
A better comparison would’ve been Cox vs. LaRussa since both are going to the Hall of Fame.
Roger Dorn
June 29th, 2009
4:16 pm
Sanjaya and Rosie O’Donell Love Georgia Tech….
I appreciate your loyalty…..now go F yourself
kindergarden math
June 29th, 2009
4:20 pm
Actually, the suggestion to hire Don Mattingly as manager is a great idea, but one which the Braves management will never go for. To bring in someone outside the organization who has experienced his success as a player and as a trusted coach for Torre during all of those Yankee years in the biggest,most pressurized venue in sports,might bring a sense of professionalism and gravitas that could show the team the way to win. I am not slamming Cox here, it’s just that he will be replaced eventually by someone and I don’t think Pendleton is the answer to the question.I am not a Yankee transplant and often root against them, but it is hard to argue against their record of success and Mattingly appears to be a genuine class act. In addition, no matter who your hitting coach would be, it is refreshing to think that your manager could actually teach you something about hitting. As I said, the Braves will never do it, but someone(the Dodgers?) will someday get a real catch here as a manager.
Larry
June 29th, 2009
4:24 pm
midnite,
Poor kid, you just need someone to talk to? Well, guess what, you get the last word in this relationship so go ahead and pour your heart out, son!
Sanjaya and Rosie O'Donell Love Georgia Tech
June 29th, 2009
4:25 pm
Larry/Midnite:
Please go blog somewhere else. Try E Harmony or Match.com
We are talking sports, not whose ass looks better in leather.
Morris
June 29th, 2009
4:27 pm
No and No. Neither. This is Frank Wren’s team. It’s time for Cox to retire and if Wren doesn’t make the right choice (assuming it’s his call), then he needs to go also. We need new blood, but we don’t need a manager that airs his dirty laundry in public.
Brownie
June 29th, 2009
4:28 pm
This is one of the few blogs where you can reasonably argue both sides of the issue. Cox is definitely a “by the book” in-game manager, and doesn’t often use much creativity. Yes, he certainly treats his players like men with respect, and expects the same from them in return. He is very consistent, meaning the players know what to expect from him, especially the fact that he gives players much time (actually TOO much) to work thru their slumps. THIS IS WHY ALL THE PLAYERS LOVE PLAYING FOR HIM.
However, I think this argument comes down to management STYLE. Cox is a great regular season manager (no arguing his results with a variety of line-ups and roster changes thru the years), but he is a weak playoff manager. The reason is that he doesn’t change his style for the playoffs.
With a 162 game schedule, you need to be patient and if you have enought talent and pitching, the success will come. What Bobby looks for from his players is ATTITUDE AND EFFORT. To him, these attributes count for more even than level of play and results. This explains why KJ and JF are still in the line-up….because they come to play hard (if not good) every day…and Cox is loyal to them for it.
Through the years, you’ve seen players who have a poor attitude or don’t give the right effort, and they are often gone quickly (e.g. Lofton, Justice, LaRoche…), even though most of the time their level of play was excellent. They simply aren’t “Bobby’s type of player”.
Right now, the Braves simply don’t have enough talented players to compete night in and out…you have to blaim John Schuerholz for that. In the last few years as GM, he literally gutted the farm system to bring in rental players like Sheffield, Renteria, Castilla, Wickman, Drew and Texeira. None of these teams were really built to win a world series, and the players were gone quickly primarily because of money (so the owners must take a large share of the blame as well). Too many very talented young players are now wearing other uniforms and playing well.
So, Cox HAS BEEN a great manager, but it is time for him to step down. His management style just won’t work with a young team. The glaring example is Escobar…world class talent, but very immature…he needs managed, and Cox’s style just won’t work.
Finally, please don’t promote Terry Pendleton to manager (although Liberty Media and McGuirk will likely push that way because he would be cheap). He has failed miserably as a hitting coach, and hasn’t earned the job, other than being a faithful soldier for Bobby.
RERickster
June 29th, 2009
4:30 pm
Interesting read by the Chicago writer. I have never liked Zambrano because of his histrionics and looks like he’s testing the patience of the Cubbie faithful, too.
I’ll agree with the recent poll of Major League done by S.I. about who they’d prefer to play for – Cox won Big time. Give Bobby the players (due to “un”limited resource) of the Dodgers and the Yankees and see how SMART he gets!
Oh yeah – Larry: Curley and Moe miss you!
Larry
June 29th, 2009
4:31 pm
Brownie,
Touché!
Sir Stealth
June 29th, 2009
4:43 pm
BLASPHEMY: shame on you AJC
aswingruber
June 29th, 2009
4:54 pm
I keep reading comments about Bobby’s 1-14 record in the final postseason game. This stat is absolutely worthless. The only way you get a win in the last postseason game is if you win the World Series, so the only way to have a winning record in your last postseason game is to win the World Series in the majority of your playoff appearances. Yeah, that’s happened a lot in the history of the game. Off the top I’m coming up with Casey Stengel and, uh, that’s about it.
Joe Torre’s record in the last postseason game of the year as a manager is 4-10. Is this a good looking win-loss record? No. Is he one the greatest managers of all-time regular and postseason? Absolutely.
Bobby should not be managing our club anymore but it isn’t because the Braves won their division 14 straight years. How about the fact that the only way inept players are no longer put in key situations in close ball games is, not because our manger realizes they’re ineffective, but is when they break their own bones. Now only if we could get Kelly and/or Frenchy to accidentally close their hand in a door.
Bobby Cox Hat Tipping Club
June 29th, 2009
4:55 pm
This is a stupid question. It’s Bobby or Lou? So you either must eat rocks or dirt?
The stupid poll folks seem to come out with these all the time. Bobby can’t motivate this team and there are other styles out there besides Bobby’s and Lou’s style.
I don’t want Lou, but Bobby just doesn’t have the tools to motivate this team.
Again, if all you folks who want to put Bobby on a pedestal want to give him credit for the winning, then he must take the rap for the losing.
Ramblin Wrecker
June 29th, 2009
4:56 pm
This is a stupid question. It’s a false choice. From what I gather, the main problem fans have with Bobby Cox is not his disposition. It is that he takes forever to make a change when a player is stinking it up. Lou Pinella is no more successful as a manager than Bobby Cox. He won the World Series one time in 1990 and did not show any sustained level of success in any place. Cox resurrected a terrible franchise in Atlanta, whereas Pinella was at the helm thru the worst years in Tampa. Pinella is not really any different than Zambrano or Milton Bradley, he’s just in charge.
RHR
June 29th, 2009
4:57 pm
Lou over Bobby? Do you smoke crack in your spare time?
duc
June 29th, 2009
4:59 pm
bobby is one of the best managers ever. All of you bobby bashers need to realize what a great job he has done over the years not only in atlanta but also in toranto. When he retires and someone else takes the job you will then realize what a great job he has done and is still doing. WE are all spoiled brave fans, did you really expect us to be in the playoffs every year. Everyone has down years even the “great” red sox and yankees have and will, so stay off bobby!!!!
Outside Robber
June 29th, 2009
5:01 pm
I’ve never liked the term, “manager” for MLB or baseball in general. It sends a wrong message that the ‘manager’ takes the players he’s provided and manages the games with them. Where’s the ‘coaching’ aspect of ‘managing’?
I think Cox isn’t concerned with the fundamentals of playing the game by his players, seemingly to the point of his assuming they already know what to do. Do they? You tell me, based on the play of this team in 2009? Or 2008? Or 2007? Or….?
TennesseePaul
June 29th, 2009
5:07 pm
AJC cashing in on the web-hits. Is it a slow day? Must you fan the flames of the few fired up fans who are furious with the lack luster play of the Braves?
The reason the Braves had success for a decade and a half was in large part because of stability in the management from the front office to the dug out. The last few years hasn’t been stable in that area. Leo left, the GM left, coaches have left and veterans have left. Now the team has the single worst second baseman in decades and a let-down of an outfield.
Complaint: Anderson is a Loaf we should have signed Dunn.
Truth: Neither is good in the outfield. It is a difference in fielding of a guy not moving at all or the guy running in the exact wrong direction. At least Dunn hits, but that costs $8 million more. Perhaps Alex Rios could be had?
Mel on a car phone
June 29th, 2009
5:10 pm
Which manager has had more success: Cox or Lou?
Lou has been a solid manager over the years, but Cox has been far more successful and the record proves that to be the case. That’s what it boils down to. Is Bobby Cox perfect? Of course not. Nobody is perfect. I’m a big fan of his and I still find myself disagreeing with him from time to time.
However, you can’t argue with the consistent results Cox has delivered throughout his career. You also can’t ignore what players have said and continue to say about the man. I’ve never heard a single player say anything bad about Bobby Cox. Even the malcontents we’ve had at times over the years, guys like Sheffield for example, might have said derogatory things about the front office, but only the most positive things about Bobby Cox. That should tell you something about how the man goes about his job. He’s one of the all-time greats. Anyone around the game or who covers or studies the game will tell you that.
Baba O'Riley
June 29th, 2009
5:12 pm
Why the love for Torre? he wins with good rosters. Remember him with the Mets and the Cards? He is no better. Someone mentioned Mattingly, because he is a Torre protege. So were Lee Mazilli and Willie Randolph. A manager is only as good as his players. Right now, players we haven’t.
Henry D.
June 29th, 2009
5:24 pm
We don’t need to jumo from the frying pan into the fire. We need someone in between the two, or Cox needs to understand that these are not the Braves of the mid-nineties and maybe need someone to rattle their cage every once in a while. I know I hop to a little when my boss goes on a rampage, even if it’s not aimed at me.
The biggest thing is, the next off day, he needs to have everyone of the players at the stadium fielding about 100 ground balls, learning how to run full speed after fly balls, and how to run the bases, and swing the bat until their arms fall off.
These are the biggest deficiencies I see with this team.
Ken Stallings
June 29th, 2009
5:30 pm
Ralph Houk was Bobby Cox’s mentor and he learned his style from him. That great Yankees manager took team after talented team to the World Series. He knew how to apply discipline when it was needed, but in a way that retained the motivation of his players. And his prime method of earning motivation was sincere aympathy with his players.
Bobby learned well.
Throughout the history of baseball, only those managers who sincerely cared for his players has become great. There have been mercurial examples of rapid success such as Billy Martin, but even such noted disciplinarians like Earl Weaver and Jim Leyland were at the heart of it men who kept their cool with their players and earned respect rather than through intimidation.
Joe Torre, Tony LaRussa, and Terry Francona all further reinforce the facts. The approach Cox learned from his mentor is the right one for long term success.
taxman kenneth
June 29th, 2009
5:31 pm
I think the braves need a new manager more aggressive manager but they also need some players who want to win. In yesterday’s game with the double play in order Kelly Johnson decided he didn’t want to turn 2 and run scored that should have been the 3rd out and the shut out preserved. It is very obvious to me that Escobar don’t want to play like he should and most of the team has no hustle at all. With a more aggressive manager maybe they would play better. Cox should have come out yesterday and taken Kelly Johnson out of the game after that bummer in the 9th inning and Francouer for not husting on the double that should have been a single. They don’t seem to care. I think some of the players are only interested in a check and not winning. Even in the glory days the braves did not play to their potential and a more aggressive manager might help but again he can’t play for them but he can sit them on the bench when they play like they did yesterday.
C Bu
June 29th, 2009
5:32 pm
Holding my breath for Greg Maddux to feel the baseball bug again and take a shot at coaching. Bobby himself stated that Maddux was always a step ahead of him. Maddux managing might be pretty interesting.
Til then, I’d like to see Ned Yost come in for an interview.
fordcobra
June 29th, 2009
5:34 pm
Thanks Bobby,
Ready for a Change.
Braves Forever
June 29th, 2009
5:44 pm
My vote is to keep Bobby Cox as long as we can. He’s one of the greatest coaches to ever coach the game. Its time to get rid of some of the players who obviously want the fat paychecks but don’t want to play to win.
Larry
June 29th, 2009
5:45 pm
Ken,
One can be likable, encouraging and tender, and one can make the sound, tough and winning decisions too! It is the latter of these qualities sorely lacking in Bobby Cox. If you think Bobby’s devotion, at the expense of winning the game, to Dan Kolb, Bob Wickman, and now Kelly Johnson and Jeff Francoeur is a winning approach this season on this we can never agree.
Terry Francona would never keep putting in Kelly Johnson day after day after day!
Mel on a car phone
June 29th, 2009
5:46 pm
Ned Yost would be an awful choice as the Braves next manager. He made numerous poor decisions in Milwaukee with regard to his lineup, in-game management and most of all handling of his pitching staff. We DO NOT need Yost here. Yost probably got a raw deal in the way he was booted from MIL, but he wasn’t a very good manager. I assume his name comes up because of his past on Cox’s staff, but he is not the answer. Neither is Freddy Gonzalez, for very similar and even stronger reasons. I’m not sure who the next manager should be, whenever Cox retires, but I sincerely hope it’s not Yost or Gonzalez.
Jack G.
June 29th, 2009
5:56 pm
Biased headline on Bradley article.
The headline was “40% want Cox to stay,”
An Honest headline would have said “60% want Cox to go”
yogi2
June 29th, 2009
6:09 pm
I have the upmost respect for both managers, Cox and Pinella. I have a big problem with Cox and Wren for playing FRanqueor all the time and for keeping Jordan so long . he kept Norton who only had a couple of hits all year. I think loyalty to the whole team and fans is more important than to one or two players[
Jack G.
June 29th, 2009
6:13 pm
BC’s Loyalty to his players and coaches(TP is an example)is legendary. But his lack of motivational skills lack of fundamental, his devotion to the 3 run homer and the playing of favorites(KC TF examples) and failure to adapt play to the type player he has instead of trying to adapt the players to his long ball style loses more ball games that it wins.
Watching him on the field is sad. He is just an old man(lovable old) who is past his time and wont face the fact that it is time to gracefully retire rather than be force out—that means fired.
130on2
June 29th, 2009
6:30 pm
My vote is for Cox. But if he is replaced, Piniella would be the best choice.
NO MORE BOBBY
June 29th, 2009
6:52 pm
Neither one of them are JOE TORRE.
UGA 75
June 29th, 2009
6:54 pm
Bobby Cox is Da Man………………..Unfortunately he is so loyal to his coaches that Terry Pendleton still has a job. He is the worst hitting coach in the history of Baseball. Could anyone name a single player who has credited TP with helping them? Don Baylor was great Julio Franco would be great, but like someone else said TP couldn’t help a teeballer hit a beachball.
Joe S
June 29th, 2009
7:00 pm
Lou Pinella.
I like his style better because he has the fiery-passion to win. If players don’t things right and don’t respond and they deserved to get a yelling by a guy of Pinella’s caliber. Player’s like Kelly Johnson who botched the most simple thing to do was a 3-4-3 DP (double play) and cost Mike Gonzalez a run with Varitek scoring in the 9th.
I’ve been a fan of the Braves for a long time since 2000 and Bobby had a lot of fiery passion back then but it’s no excuse that he’s losing psychological confidence. We should get Phillip Wellman from AA Mississippi to take over for Bobby Cox for cheap. I believe Bobby Cox should bench some players for making horrific plays that a little leaguer can execute properly, and that would teach guys like Kelly Johnson to field better and run out ground balls, or just lazy fly balls.
VoiceOfReason
June 29th, 2009
7:01 pm
Booby should have retired 3 years ago. He reminds me of a grandfather at a T-ball game with the onset of memory loss: “Come on Chumper!” “Let’s hit it hard, Esky” “Two bits, four bits,…….”
Turn the page. Get a leader.
Joe S
June 29th, 2009
7:05 pm
I would also add on that the Braves always played with the 3 “P’s” pride, passion, and perseverance. If Frank Wren can go out in the offseason and find a new manager no matter if he’s from our system, another team, or a Super College program like Auggie Garrido is for Texas. That man has a way of working with young guys and understanding them as well and it would be great to get a guy like that.
Vermont39
June 29th, 2009
7:09 pm
Cox has done his job. He lets the players play. The perennial playoff Braves never were a bashing team. They did have a few who could go deep: Gant, Andruw, Chipper, Andres, maybe Justice(one memorable) but their team was built around pitching and defense. Playoffs bring another dimension into the picture. Maddux and Glavine never really excelled in the playoffs and when a few untimely errors caused them to have to pitch to extra batters ad things happened. Leyritz was on ROIDS!!!
We never had a closer…FACT!!! Put Rivera in tour bullpen…we win!!! Have any closer worth his salt; Rivera doesn’t matter…we win. Smoltz was the ONLY dominant starting pitcher we had in post-season. So is Bobby at the gateway to sunset…most likely…and I would hope so because this year’s losses must be killing him. His decisions in post season would have made him look like a genius had he won…he didn’t have many choices after the 7th inning. I bet all those people who came into games then would tell you the same. BLAME JS for that, If blame is what you get your jollies from. WE NEVER HAD A CLOSER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOOK IT UP!!!!!
Keith
June 29th, 2009
7:33 pm
You don’t know what you have till its gone. That phrase fits with some of the fan’s attitudes towards Bobby Cox on here. It won’t sink in how great Bobby Cox is until he is gone, and at that point, everyone will be wishing for Bobby Cox again. As for the question in this blog, I would take Bobby Cox over Lou Pinella 6 days a week and twice on Sunday. He’s simply a better manager.
Now, with that said, when Bobby does decide to call it quits, I’d rather go after an up start guy rather than recycle someone that has been unable to get the job done somewhere else. IMO, there is clearly a lack of top notch managerial candidates in major league baseball right now. This is why managers like Dusty Baker, Bruce Bochy, Felipe Alou, Lou Pinella, Jim Tracy, and others continually get recycled.
I realize the chances of hitting a home run with whoever the Braves end up hiring to replace Bobby is very unlikely, and chances are, it will be the guy who replaces that guy that replaces Bobby Cox that ends up getting this team back to winning ways. Give me a top notch minor league manager that is eager to manage at the major league level, and I’m not against promoting from within to get this done.
NO MORE BOBBY
June 29th, 2009
7:41 pm
The real question is….
Mark Bradley or DOB?
Braves73
June 29th, 2009
7:53 pm
This blog was truly weak. Who the he!! put his sorry crap together. Please don’t represent this as being the type of blog that real Braves fans are used to…You might as well talk about gardening while your at it…what’s next, a blog on how tall the average basketball player in the NBA is…PLEASE, PATHETIC!
Mark in mid-town
June 29th, 2009
8:14 pm
The problem with Bobby Cox is not that he lacks fire and is too nice to his players. The major problem with Bobby Cox is that he has got to be one of the worst, if not the worst, situational tactical manager in the game. This has always been the case. I attribute this to Cox probably having an IQ not much higher than 80. His social IQ may be high, but not his critical thinking skills. Now, tactics don’t always come into play. In fact, most games are decided without the tactics mattering that much. But of the 25% or 30% of games where tactical decision making does matter, Cox’s low IQ conceptual ability costs the Braves far more of these games than they win. Back during the Braves hey-day, the roster was so deep (especially pitching), that very few regular season games came down to tactics. Not so during the post-season when far more of the games came down to tactics. And as we all know, the Braves only won one World Series when they probably would have won several if not for some very questionable tactical managing by Cox. Cox did win the World Series in 1995, but one could argue that the person managing the Indians wasn’t exactly a deep thinker either in the tactical arena.