Atlanta Braves: Bobby Cox vs. Lou Piniella – Which managerial approach works best?
Aye, Skipper: Sweet Lou or Bobby? (AP / AJC)
When AJC columnist Mark Bradley asked readers if the Braves needed to say goodbye to longtime manager Bobby Cox, he found that although most fans who responded to his poll said they would like a change at the team’s helm, it wasn’t by the large margin he’d anticipated.
“Sixty percent of roughly 2,000 respondents said the Braves do in fact need a new manager. I figured it would be 70-30, maybe even 80-20,” Bradley wrote in his June 23 blog.
And with the Braves at 35-40, in fourth place in the NL East and five games behind the division-leading Phillies, many AJC readers have complained on our blogs and in the Braves Vent about Cox’s calm, cool and collected “player’s manager” style; the yelling and insults appear reserved for umpires. Try to remember the last time you read a story including the phrase “Braves clubhouse controversy.” But some fans say the Braves lack fire, as does Cox, and a less player-oriented manager must take over for Atlanta to return to its once-dominant form.
Now consider the Chicago Cubs, just one year removed from postseason play and a 97-win season, who have the look of a team in utter disarray. With fiery skipper Lou Piniella heading up a squad that started 2009 expected to once again contend for the NL Central title, which they took in ‘08, Chicago is 35-37 — squarely in the middle of its division pack — and recent clubhouse infighting hasn’t gone unnoticed by the local media.
Chicago Tribune columnist Phil Rogers says it’s time for high-spirited Cubs ace Carlos Zambrano to go, following his meltdown against the White Sox during interleague play Sunday. Rogers also points out the “Cubs’ sorry display of the previous two days, when Piniella called [outfielder] Milton Bradley ‘a piece of [bleep]‘ and then got upset that the confidentiality of the clubhouse had been breached, allegedly by an unknown White Sox employee.”
YOU TELL US: Which managerial style do you think works best in baseball — Cox’s ‘player’s manager’ style or Piniella’s calls it as he sees it manner? Who would you rather have managing the Braves, if it were between the two — Cox or Piniella? And why?
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133 comments Add your comment
Larry
June 29th, 2009
4:31 pm
Brownie,
Touché!
Sir Stealth
June 29th, 2009
4:43 pm
BLASPHEMY: shame on you AJC
aswingruber
June 29th, 2009
4:54 pm
I keep reading comments about Bobby’s 1-14 record in the final postseason game. This stat is absolutely worthless. The only way you get a win in the last postseason game is if you win the World Series, so the only way to have a winning record in your last postseason game is to win the World Series in the majority of your playoff appearances. Yeah, that’s happened a lot in the history of the game. Off the top I’m coming up with Casey Stengel and, uh, that’s about it.
Joe Torre’s record in the last postseason game of the year as a manager is 4-10. Is this a good looking win-loss record? No. Is he one the greatest managers of all-time regular and postseason? Absolutely.
Bobby should not be managing our club anymore but it isn’t because the Braves won their division 14 straight years. How about the fact that the only way inept players are no longer put in key situations in close ball games is, not because our manger realizes they’re ineffective, but is when they break their own bones. Now only if we could get Kelly and/or Frenchy to accidentally close their hand in a door.
Bobby Cox Hat Tipping Club
June 29th, 2009
4:55 pm
This is a stupid question. It’s Bobby or Lou? So you either must eat rocks or dirt?
The stupid poll folks seem to come out with these all the time. Bobby can’t motivate this team and there are other styles out there besides Bobby’s and Lou’s style.
I don’t want Lou, but Bobby just doesn’t have the tools to motivate this team.
Again, if all you folks who want to put Bobby on a pedestal want to give him credit for the winning, then he must take the rap for the losing.
Ramblin Wrecker
June 29th, 2009
4:56 pm
This is a stupid question. It’s a false choice. From what I gather, the main problem fans have with Bobby Cox is not his disposition. It is that he takes forever to make a change when a player is stinking it up. Lou Pinella is no more successful as a manager than Bobby Cox. He won the World Series one time in 1990 and did not show any sustained level of success in any place. Cox resurrected a terrible franchise in Atlanta, whereas Pinella was at the helm thru the worst years in Tampa. Pinella is not really any different than Zambrano or Milton Bradley, he’s just in charge.
RHR
June 29th, 2009
4:57 pm
Lou over Bobby? Do you smoke crack in your spare time?
duc
June 29th, 2009
4:59 pm
bobby is one of the best managers ever. All of you bobby bashers need to realize what a great job he has done over the years not only in atlanta but also in toranto. When he retires and someone else takes the job you will then realize what a great job he has done and is still doing. WE are all spoiled brave fans, did you really expect us to be in the playoffs every year. Everyone has down years even the “great” red sox and yankees have and will, so stay off bobby!!!!
Outside Robber
June 29th, 2009
5:01 pm
I’ve never liked the term, “manager” for MLB or baseball in general. It sends a wrong message that the ‘manager’ takes the players he’s provided and manages the games with them. Where’s the ‘coaching’ aspect of ‘managing’?
I think Cox isn’t concerned with the fundamentals of playing the game by his players, seemingly to the point of his assuming they already know what to do. Do they? You tell me, based on the play of this team in 2009? Or 2008? Or 2007? Or….?
TennesseePaul
June 29th, 2009
5:07 pm
AJC cashing in on the web-hits. Is it a slow day? Must you fan the flames of the few fired up fans who are furious with the lack luster play of the Braves?
The reason the Braves had success for a decade and a half was in large part because of stability in the management from the front office to the dug out. The last few years hasn’t been stable in that area. Leo left, the GM left, coaches have left and veterans have left. Now the team has the single worst second baseman in decades and a let-down of an outfield.
Complaint: Anderson is a Loaf we should have signed Dunn.
Truth: Neither is good in the outfield. It is a difference in fielding of a guy not moving at all or the guy running in the exact wrong direction. At least Dunn hits, but that costs $8 million more. Perhaps Alex Rios could be had?
Mel on a car phone
June 29th, 2009
5:10 pm
Which manager has had more success: Cox or Lou?
Lou has been a solid manager over the years, but Cox has been far more successful and the record proves that to be the case. That’s what it boils down to. Is Bobby Cox perfect? Of course not. Nobody is perfect. I’m a big fan of his and I still find myself disagreeing with him from time to time.
However, you can’t argue with the consistent results Cox has delivered throughout his career. You also can’t ignore what players have said and continue to say about the man. I’ve never heard a single player say anything bad about Bobby Cox. Even the malcontents we’ve had at times over the years, guys like Sheffield for example, might have said derogatory things about the front office, but only the most positive things about Bobby Cox. That should tell you something about how the man goes about his job. He’s one of the all-time greats. Anyone around the game or who covers or studies the game will tell you that.
Baba O'Riley
June 29th, 2009
5:12 pm
Why the love for Torre? he wins with good rosters. Remember him with the Mets and the Cards? He is no better. Someone mentioned Mattingly, because he is a Torre protege. So were Lee Mazilli and Willie Randolph. A manager is only as good as his players. Right now, players we haven’t.
Henry D.
June 29th, 2009
5:24 pm
We don’t need to jumo from the frying pan into the fire. We need someone in between the two, or Cox needs to understand that these are not the Braves of the mid-nineties and maybe need someone to rattle their cage every once in a while. I know I hop to a little when my boss goes on a rampage, even if it’s not aimed at me.
The biggest thing is, the next off day, he needs to have everyone of the players at the stadium fielding about 100 ground balls, learning how to run full speed after fly balls, and how to run the bases, and swing the bat until their arms fall off.
These are the biggest deficiencies I see with this team.
Ken Stallings
June 29th, 2009
5:30 pm
Ralph Houk was Bobby Cox’s mentor and he learned his style from him. That great Yankees manager took team after talented team to the World Series. He knew how to apply discipline when it was needed, but in a way that retained the motivation of his players. And his prime method of earning motivation was sincere aympathy with his players.
Bobby learned well.
Throughout the history of baseball, only those managers who sincerely cared for his players has become great. There have been mercurial examples of rapid success such as Billy Martin, but even such noted disciplinarians like Earl Weaver and Jim Leyland were at the heart of it men who kept their cool with their players and earned respect rather than through intimidation.
Joe Torre, Tony LaRussa, and Terry Francona all further reinforce the facts. The approach Cox learned from his mentor is the right one for long term success.
taxman kenneth
June 29th, 2009
5:31 pm
I think the braves need a new manager more aggressive manager but they also need some players who want to win. In yesterday’s game with the double play in order Kelly Johnson decided he didn’t want to turn 2 and run scored that should have been the 3rd out and the shut out preserved. It is very obvious to me that Escobar don’t want to play like he should and most of the team has no hustle at all. With a more aggressive manager maybe they would play better. Cox should have come out yesterday and taken Kelly Johnson out of the game after that bummer in the 9th inning and Francouer for not husting on the double that should have been a single. They don’t seem to care. I think some of the players are only interested in a check and not winning. Even in the glory days the braves did not play to their potential and a more aggressive manager might help but again he can’t play for them but he can sit them on the bench when they play like they did yesterday.
C Bu
June 29th, 2009
5:32 pm
Holding my breath for Greg Maddux to feel the baseball bug again and take a shot at coaching. Bobby himself stated that Maddux was always a step ahead of him. Maddux managing might be pretty interesting.
Til then, I’d like to see Ned Yost come in for an interview.
fordcobra
June 29th, 2009
5:34 pm
Thanks Bobby,
Ready for a Change.
Braves Forever
June 29th, 2009
5:44 pm
My vote is to keep Bobby Cox as long as we can. He’s one of the greatest coaches to ever coach the game. Its time to get rid of some of the players who obviously want the fat paychecks but don’t want to play to win.
Larry
June 29th, 2009
5:45 pm
Ken,
One can be likable, encouraging and tender, and one can make the sound, tough and winning decisions too! It is the latter of these qualities sorely lacking in Bobby Cox. If you think Bobby’s devotion, at the expense of winning the game, to Dan Kolb, Bob Wickman, and now Kelly Johnson and Jeff Francoeur is a winning approach this season on this we can never agree.
Terry Francona would never keep putting in Kelly Johnson day after day after day!
Mel on a car phone
June 29th, 2009
5:46 pm
Ned Yost would be an awful choice as the Braves next manager. He made numerous poor decisions in Milwaukee with regard to his lineup, in-game management and most of all handling of his pitching staff. We DO NOT need Yost here. Yost probably got a raw deal in the way he was booted from MIL, but he wasn’t a very good manager. I assume his name comes up because of his past on Cox’s staff, but he is not the answer. Neither is Freddy Gonzalez, for very similar and even stronger reasons. I’m not sure who the next manager should be, whenever Cox retires, but I sincerely hope it’s not Yost or Gonzalez.
Jack G.
June 29th, 2009
5:56 pm
Biased headline on Bradley article.
The headline was “40% want Cox to stay,”
An Honest headline would have said “60% want Cox to go”
yogi2
June 29th, 2009
6:09 pm
I have the upmost respect for both managers, Cox and Pinella. I have a big problem with Cox and Wren for playing FRanqueor all the time and for keeping Jordan so long . he kept Norton who only had a couple of hits all year. I think loyalty to the whole team and fans is more important than to one or two players[
Jack G.
June 29th, 2009
6:13 pm
BC’s Loyalty to his players and coaches(TP is an example)is legendary. But his lack of motivational skills lack of fundamental, his devotion to the 3 run homer and the playing of favorites(KC TF examples) and failure to adapt play to the type player he has instead of trying to adapt the players to his long ball style loses more ball games that it wins.
Watching him on the field is sad. He is just an old man(lovable old) who is past his time and wont face the fact that it is time to gracefully retire rather than be force out—that means fired.
130on2
June 29th, 2009
6:30 pm
My vote is for Cox. But if he is replaced, Piniella would be the best choice.
NO MORE BOBBY
June 29th, 2009
6:52 pm
Neither one of them are JOE TORRE.
UGA 75
June 29th, 2009
6:54 pm
Bobby Cox is Da Man………………..Unfortunately he is so loyal to his coaches that Terry Pendleton still has a job. He is the worst hitting coach in the history of Baseball. Could anyone name a single player who has credited TP with helping them? Don Baylor was great Julio Franco would be great, but like someone else said TP couldn’t help a teeballer hit a beachball.
Joe S
June 29th, 2009
7:00 pm
Lou Pinella.
I like his style better because he has the fiery-passion to win. If players don’t things right and don’t respond and they deserved to get a yelling by a guy of Pinella’s caliber. Player’s like Kelly Johnson who botched the most simple thing to do was a 3-4-3 DP (double play) and cost Mike Gonzalez a run with Varitek scoring in the 9th.
I’ve been a fan of the Braves for a long time since 2000 and Bobby had a lot of fiery passion back then but it’s no excuse that he’s losing psychological confidence. We should get Phillip Wellman from AA Mississippi to take over for Bobby Cox for cheap. I believe Bobby Cox should bench some players for making horrific plays that a little leaguer can execute properly, and that would teach guys like Kelly Johnson to field better and run out ground balls, or just lazy fly balls.
VoiceOfReason
June 29th, 2009
7:01 pm
Booby should have retired 3 years ago. He reminds me of a grandfather at a T-ball game with the onset of memory loss: “Come on Chumper!” “Let’s hit it hard, Esky” “Two bits, four bits,…….”
Turn the page. Get a leader.
Joe S
June 29th, 2009
7:05 pm
I would also add on that the Braves always played with the 3 “P’s” pride, passion, and perseverance. If Frank Wren can go out in the offseason and find a new manager no matter if he’s from our system, another team, or a Super College program like Auggie Garrido is for Texas. That man has a way of working with young guys and understanding them as well and it would be great to get a guy like that.
Vermont39
June 29th, 2009
7:09 pm
Cox has done his job. He lets the players play. The perennial playoff Braves never were a bashing team. They did have a few who could go deep: Gant, Andruw, Chipper, Andres, maybe Justice(one memorable) but their team was built around pitching and defense. Playoffs bring another dimension into the picture. Maddux and Glavine never really excelled in the playoffs and when a few untimely errors caused them to have to pitch to extra batters ad things happened. Leyritz was on ROIDS!!!
We never had a closer…FACT!!! Put Rivera in tour bullpen…we win!!! Have any closer worth his salt; Rivera doesn’t matter…we win. Smoltz was the ONLY dominant starting pitcher we had in post-season. So is Bobby at the gateway to sunset…most likely…and I would hope so because this year’s losses must be killing him. His decisions in post season would have made him look like a genius had he won…he didn’t have many choices after the 7th inning. I bet all those people who came into games then would tell you the same. BLAME JS for that, If blame is what you get your jollies from. WE NEVER HAD A CLOSER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOOK IT UP!!!!!
Keith
June 29th, 2009
7:33 pm
You don’t know what you have till its gone. That phrase fits with some of the fan’s attitudes towards Bobby Cox on here. It won’t sink in how great Bobby Cox is until he is gone, and at that point, everyone will be wishing for Bobby Cox again. As for the question in this blog, I would take Bobby Cox over Lou Pinella 6 days a week and twice on Sunday. He’s simply a better manager.
Now, with that said, when Bobby does decide to call it quits, I’d rather go after an up start guy rather than recycle someone that has been unable to get the job done somewhere else. IMO, there is clearly a lack of top notch managerial candidates in major league baseball right now. This is why managers like Dusty Baker, Bruce Bochy, Felipe Alou, Lou Pinella, Jim Tracy, and others continually get recycled.
I realize the chances of hitting a home run with whoever the Braves end up hiring to replace Bobby is very unlikely, and chances are, it will be the guy who replaces that guy that replaces Bobby Cox that ends up getting this team back to winning ways. Give me a top notch minor league manager that is eager to manage at the major league level, and I’m not against promoting from within to get this done.
NO MORE BOBBY
June 29th, 2009
7:41 pm
The real question is….
Mark Bradley or DOB?
Braves73
June 29th, 2009
7:53 pm
This blog was truly weak. Who the he!! put his sorry crap together. Please don’t represent this as being the type of blog that real Braves fans are used to…You might as well talk about gardening while your at it…what’s next, a blog on how tall the average basketball player in the NBA is…PLEASE, PATHETIC!
Mark in mid-town
June 29th, 2009
8:14 pm
The problem with Bobby Cox is not that he lacks fire and is too nice to his players. The major problem with Bobby Cox is that he has got to be one of the worst, if not the worst, situational tactical manager in the game. This has always been the case. I attribute this to Cox probably having an IQ not much higher than 80. His social IQ may be high, but not his critical thinking skills. Now, tactics don’t always come into play. In fact, most games are decided without the tactics mattering that much. But of the 25% or 30% of games where tactical decision making does matter, Cox’s low IQ conceptual ability costs the Braves far more of these games than they win. Back during the Braves hey-day, the roster was so deep (especially pitching), that very few regular season games came down to tactics. Not so during the post-season when far more of the games came down to tactics. And as we all know, the Braves only won one World Series when they probably would have won several if not for some very questionable tactical managing by Cox. Cox did win the World Series in 1995, but one could argue that the person managing the Indians wasn’t exactly a deep thinker either in the tactical arena.