Atlanta Braves: Bobby Cox vs. Lou Piniella – Which managerial approach works best?
Aye, Skipper: Sweet Lou or Bobby? (AP / AJC)
When AJC columnist Mark Bradley asked readers if the Braves needed to say goodbye to longtime manager Bobby Cox, he found that although most fans who responded to his poll said they would like a change at the team’s helm, it wasn’t by the large margin he’d anticipated.
“Sixty percent of roughly 2,000 respondents said the Braves do in fact need a new manager. I figured it would be 70-30, maybe even 80-20,” Bradley wrote in his June 23 blog.
And with the Braves at 35-40, in fourth place in the NL East and five games behind the division-leading Phillies, many AJC readers have complained on our blogs and in the Braves Vent about Cox’s calm, cool and collected “player’s manager” style; the yelling and insults appear reserved for umpires. Try to remember the last time you read a story including the phrase “Braves clubhouse controversy.” But some fans say the Braves lack fire, as does Cox, and a less player-oriented manager must take over for Atlanta to return to its once-dominant form.
Now consider the Chicago Cubs, just one year removed from postseason play and a 97-win season, who have the look of a team in utter disarray. With fiery skipper Lou Piniella heading up a squad that started 2009 expected to once again contend for the NL Central title, which they took in ‘08, Chicago is 35-37 — squarely in the middle of its division pack — and recent clubhouse infighting hasn’t gone unnoticed by the local media.
Chicago Tribune columnist Phil Rogers says it’s time for high-spirited Cubs ace Carlos Zambrano to go, following his meltdown against the White Sox during interleague play Sunday. Rogers also points out the “Cubs’ sorry display of the previous two days, when Piniella called [outfielder] Milton Bradley ‘a piece of [bleep]‘ and then got upset that the confidentiality of the clubhouse had been breached, allegedly by an unknown White Sox employee.”
YOU TELL US: Which managerial style do you think works best in baseball — Cox’s ‘player’s manager’ style or Piniella’s calls it as he sees it manner? Who would you rather have managing the Braves, if it were between the two — Cox or Piniella? And why?
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133 comments Add your comment
JEZ
June 29th, 2009
3:07 pm
yea I think Torre is the model here winning all of those championships with the yankees and their teams were not any better than ours of those days. He’s also a players manager but he does not put up with players lacking hustle and heart. He also knows how to manage his bullpen and not wear them out. We need someone with his demeanor to lead us cause Cox doesn’t have that, nor any of our other coaching staff
HERBIE
June 29th, 2009
3:07 pm
you are all cry babies
braveshater
June 29th, 2009
3:09 pm
Bobby Coxcks sucks coxcks. Take a walk. 1 for fucin 15.
Roger Dorn
June 29th, 2009
3:09 pm
Sonny Clusters……
What in the hell are you talking about?
Had a little bit to drink today?
Ramblinwreck1378
June 29th, 2009
3:12 pm
I think we should blog in person, that way we know who actually knows their stuff and who searches on the internet for facts and arbitrarily types them down.
Sanjaya and Rosie O'Donell Love Georgia Tech
June 29th, 2009
3:15 pm
Ramblinwreck1378. Here is a fact for you: TECH SUCKS!
Roger Dorn
June 29th, 2009
3:16 pm
Sanjaya and Rosie O’Donell Love Georgia Tech……….Did you have to look that up on the internet ?
Roger Dorn
June 29th, 2009
3:17 pm
Tech Sucks…….I looked it up on the internet.
Sanjaya and Rosie O'Donell Love Georgia Tech
June 29th, 2009
3:17 pm
I actually googled Georgia Tech football and I received a picture of Reggie Ball with the words below: EPIC FAILURE
Sonny Clusters
June 29th, 2009
3:18 pm
I have not had a drink because good athletes like me and Jeff dont do that and thats why we was state champion back when we was playing ball together. If Lou Pinella was coaching like our Coach and was coaching the Braves I think it could help Jeff get on base some more because getting hit in the head to get on base is going to take its tole on him before the season is out and he cracks a helmet and gets hurt.
Ramblinwreck1378
June 29th, 2009
3:20 pm
Back to the Braves… You douchtool Georgia fans can never stay on topic.
Ralph
June 29th, 2009
3:21 pm
ramblinwreck, absoluely I mean what I said, a dummy could have won those titles with that pitching staff and come to think of it, A DUMMY DID.
Old Number Six
June 29th, 2009
3:22 pm
With so much talent over the years that Bobby Cox has been the Atlanta Skipper you would think there would be more championships. He does not fire them up to win the big ones. His laid back approach with the players has hurt more than it has helped.
Coach (2010 or Bust)
June 29th, 2009
3:24 pm
I wouldn’t want either one of them. Time for Pendleton to take over.
midnite
June 29th, 2009
3:26 pm
To be so wealthy and worldly Larry sure is a bitter, angry sort. Larry does not always drink beer, but when he does it’s Dos XXX.
Matty
June 29th, 2009
3:26 pm
Don Mattingly? Has studied under Torre for some time now.
The Tribe Leader
June 29th, 2009
3:29 pm
Time for Pendleton to take over?
I would prefer Ned Yost or Buck Showalter.
Ramblinwreck1378
June 29th, 2009
3:30 pm
Since Pendleton is such a good hitting coach…
cvbraves
June 29th, 2009
3:35 pm
Believe I saw on ESPN where fans voted for the top manager and players over the past 20 years. Believe Bobby Cox was voted top manager over LaRussa and Torre.
Bobby Cox will be the very best manager the Braves could have until he decides to retire…which I hope is still years away…and I wish AJC didn’t feel it necessary to publish such nonsense in response to bloggers — most of whom never played a major/minor game in their lives.
Larry
June 29th, 2009
3:35 pm
Thanks to the readers who are responding intelligently to this, regardless of your persuasion. It’s most unfortunate that our comments are too often sandwiched between so many unemployed landscape artists too lazy to get out and look for a job today.
This is kind of like trying to have an adult conversation while a bunch of bratts are screaming for their toys or bottles!
The Tribe Leader
June 29th, 2009
3:35 pm
Even if Pendleton was a good hitting coach, does that translate into a good manager. I think the goal of changing the manager would be a different voice, a different attitude. Pendleton would not provide this.
old number seven
June 29th, 2009
3:38 pm
terry pendleton has to go we make no adjustment’s in the batter’s box and there is no fire no where on the team and bobbycox is no better
TRobb
June 29th, 2009
3:41 pm
I think sometimes you need a new voice.
Bobby has been great for a long time and wears well because he’s a terrific manager of people. His decision to never handle things through the press seems like a simple code but most other managers can’t do it.
My sense is that he’s got his hands full now with a leadership void – Chipper is more Indian than chief, McLouth too new, McCann still young – that used to be taken care of by veterans. Also, Leo Mazzone could be the bad cop to Bobby’s good cop.
I think these guys need a kick in the a$$, some fire, and Bobby is not inclined – and is too old – to do it.
I can’t believe all the calls that have gone against them this year and the foolish play in the field by Escobar, Anderson, Johnson and Francoeur. Bobby’s not exerting anything on behalf of the team or disciplining guys by letting them ride pine (”The bench is a great motivator.” – Steve Spurrier). Well, he does with Escobar, but he keeps running Kelly, Jeff and Garret out there. There was a time when he’d be embarrassed by all the mental mistakes his team makes regularly now.
Bobby needs to go up to the farm and enjoy himself. Let a younger guy with a little fire take the reins. Not Piniella, too old. The team needs a new voice.
"Chef" Tim Dix
June 29th, 2009
3:41 pm
Freddie Gonzalez will be the next skipper of the Braves WHEN Bobby calls his own out.
midnite
June 29th, 2009
3:45 pm
Thanks Larry I appreciate the props. How does one become “the most interesting man in the world”?
Larry
June 29th, 2009
3:46 pm
cvbraves,
Well, I played 9 years reaching a pretty high level! However, that poll to which you refer is most vague and too nonspecific!
The poll asks whom would you prefer to play for, and you’re correct, most named Bobby Cox. But, if you could play a kid’s game, get paid millions to do so, and could play for perhaps the most easy going person that would continue to let you fail and fail at hitting or pitching thus getting you more at bats or innings pitched to hit your bonus, who would you choose? I would choose Bobby Cox too!
However, were you to ask me a more meaningful question like “if the postseason started today and you could pick the best manager to make the very best decisions during a must win game or short series that would propel you to a World Series Championship, who would you pick as your manager?” I can tell you, if asked this question Bobby Cox would not finish anywhere near at the top of the list!
Would you answer “Bobby Cox” to this question?
The Tribe Leader
June 29th, 2009
3:47 pm
I wouldn’t necessarily say there isn’t any fire. There just appears to be a low baseball IQ collectively on this team.
ray k.
June 29th, 2009
3:48 pm
2014: Manager Freddie Gonzalez. Hitting coach: Chipper Jones. Pitching coach: John Smoltz.
Bobby Cox fishing.
Alex
June 29th, 2009
3:51 pm
Just a thought on a better pole for this newspaper. Who here believes major league baseball has given this franchise a fair chance at competing with teams like the yankees and red sox when they are currently owned by a media group based in Denver Colorado?
Ryan Johns
June 29th, 2009
3:51 pm
Bobby has had a mediocre team, at best, the past few years. We could have Larussa managing this team and they would still lose.
Larry
June 29th, 2009
3:55 pm
Ryan,
Losing doesn’t bother me as much as you’d think; not hustling, pouting, indifference, or making the necessary in-game decisions to win causes me heartburn!
Larry
June 29th, 2009
3:56 pm
midnite,
If you want to touch it all you need to do is ask!
WilliamG
June 29th, 2009
3:58 pm
I guess this is the new world where everyone – regardless of the amount of knowledge they have about a given subject – is equal. Here we have a bunch of folks who have never played professional baseball, never managed an inning, and all of a sudden the reader is supposed to care what they think about the manager of the Braves.
I know, from reading, what players and managers think across baseball. He’s one helluva manager who has, at times, created winning teams where others would have failed. And, when he’s had the horses, he’s won it all. Do you think Cubs fans would trade records over the years?
But this new world that I mentioned must be working, here I am reading what various idiots think when it comes to how teams should be managed. In my defense, some of the comments are fairly amusing.
The Tribe Leader
June 29th, 2009
3:59 pm
This current Braves team is not a mediocre team. They are actually a pretty talented team. They just perform to the level they are capable of. Which forces you to point the finger at the manager.
Spider29
June 29th, 2009
4:01 pm
Bobby Cox, no question. Respects his players, fans and the game of baseball. Hall of Fame credentials. I’d take him over Lou any day.
gboh
June 29th, 2009
4:01 pm
Of all the major sports, baseball is the most pronounced example of a fundamental principle – talent wins, managers don’t. The reason the Braves won is because they had better talent than other teams (aka, three hall-of-fame pitchers). The reason the Braves are not winning is because they don’t have the talent (shutout-shutout-2 runs-1 run, etc.). Joe Torre won in New York because he had the best talent. When the Red Sox came along with better talent Joe wasn’t so special. Now he’s winning with the Dodgers because they have a wealth of young talent now coming into its own. Take all the winning managers over the last few decades, compare them, and you’ll find they are as different as night and day with only one fundamental similarity – their teams had the best talent for that particular time.
Hitting and pitching coaches, however, are quite a different story. They DO make a difference – namely Dave Duncan in St. Louis!
gboh
June 29th, 2009
4:04 pm
Hey WilliamG – I guess now you’re one of “the idiots” too
The Tribe Leader
June 29th, 2009
4:04 pm
WilliamG
Can you take the self righteous act somewhere else please.
The Tribe Leader
June 29th, 2009
4:06 pm
gboh
You couldn’t be more wrong. If all it took was talent, the Yankees would win every year.
Sanjaya and Rosie O'Donell Love Georgia Tech
June 29th, 2009
4:06 pm
Our pitching is phenomenal. The problem is we have no hitting. As far as Bobby Cox is concerned, we would probably have the same record with any head coach right now. You cannot expect the Braves to win if we cannot bring RISP home. I appreciate Bobby’s loyalty, but the most talented player needs to be on the field in order to win.
CoastDog
June 29th, 2009
4:09 pm
I’ll take Cox over Loopin’ Ella any day.
midnite
June 29th, 2009
4:10 pm
Larry I thought you were of that perversion, oops I meant persuasion. You just couldn’t keep it in the bag could you. Didn’t you say you played girls slo-pitch for nine years?
Adam
June 29th, 2009
4:11 pm
Managers must blend with their players’ personalities.
Cox has obviously worked better with the talent he has gotten.
A better comparison would’ve been Cox vs. LaRussa since both are going to the Hall of Fame.
Roger Dorn
June 29th, 2009
4:16 pm
Sanjaya and Rosie O’Donell Love Georgia Tech….
I appreciate your loyalty…..now go F yourself
kindergarden math
June 29th, 2009
4:20 pm
Actually, the suggestion to hire Don Mattingly as manager is a great idea, but one which the Braves management will never go for. To bring in someone outside the organization who has experienced his success as a player and as a trusted coach for Torre during all of those Yankee years in the biggest,most pressurized venue in sports,might bring a sense of professionalism and gravitas that could show the team the way to win. I am not slamming Cox here, it’s just that he will be replaced eventually by someone and I don’t think Pendleton is the answer to the question.I am not a Yankee transplant and often root against them, but it is hard to argue against their record of success and Mattingly appears to be a genuine class act. In addition, no matter who your hitting coach would be, it is refreshing to think that your manager could actually teach you something about hitting. As I said, the Braves will never do it, but someone(the Dodgers?) will someday get a real catch here as a manager.
Larry
June 29th, 2009
4:24 pm
midnite,
Poor kid, you just need someone to talk to? Well, guess what, you get the last word in this relationship so go ahead and pour your heart out, son!
Sanjaya and Rosie O'Donell Love Georgia Tech
June 29th, 2009
4:25 pm
Larry/Midnite:
Please go blog somewhere else. Try E Harmony or Match.com
We are talking sports, not whose ass looks better in leather.
Morris
June 29th, 2009
4:27 pm
No and No. Neither. This is Frank Wren’s team. It’s time for Cox to retire and if Wren doesn’t make the right choice (assuming it’s his call), then he needs to go also. We need new blood, but we don’t need a manager that airs his dirty laundry in public.
Brownie
June 29th, 2009
4:28 pm
This is one of the few blogs where you can reasonably argue both sides of the issue. Cox is definitely a “by the book” in-game manager, and doesn’t often use much creativity. Yes, he certainly treats his players like men with respect, and expects the same from them in return. He is very consistent, meaning the players know what to expect from him, especially the fact that he gives players much time (actually TOO much) to work thru their slumps. THIS IS WHY ALL THE PLAYERS LOVE PLAYING FOR HIM.
However, I think this argument comes down to management STYLE. Cox is a great regular season manager (no arguing his results with a variety of line-ups and roster changes thru the years), but he is a weak playoff manager. The reason is that he doesn’t change his style for the playoffs.
With a 162 game schedule, you need to be patient and if you have enought talent and pitching, the success will come. What Bobby looks for from his players is ATTITUDE AND EFFORT. To him, these attributes count for more even than level of play and results. This explains why KJ and JF are still in the line-up….because they come to play hard (if not good) every day…and Cox is loyal to them for it.
Through the years, you’ve seen players who have a poor attitude or don’t give the right effort, and they are often gone quickly (e.g. Lofton, Justice, LaRoche…), even though most of the time their level of play was excellent. They simply aren’t “Bobby’s type of player”.
Right now, the Braves simply don’t have enough talented players to compete night in and out…you have to blaim John Schuerholz for that. In the last few years as GM, he literally gutted the farm system to bring in rental players like Sheffield, Renteria, Castilla, Wickman, Drew and Texeira. None of these teams were really built to win a world series, and the players were gone quickly primarily because of money (so the owners must take a large share of the blame as well). Too many very talented young players are now wearing other uniforms and playing well.
So, Cox HAS BEEN a great manager, but it is time for him to step down. His management style just won’t work with a young team. The glaring example is Escobar…world class talent, but very immature…he needs managed, and Cox’s style just won’t work.
Finally, please don’t promote Terry Pendleton to manager (although Liberty Media and McGuirk will likely push that way because he would be cheap). He has failed miserably as a hitting coach, and hasn’t earned the job, other than being a faithful soldier for Bobby.
RERickster
June 29th, 2009
4:30 pm
Interesting read by the Chicago writer. I have never liked Zambrano because of his histrionics and looks like he’s testing the patience of the Cubbie faithful, too.
I’ll agree with the recent poll of Major League done by S.I. about who they’d prefer to play for – Cox won Big time. Give Bobby the players (due to “un”limited resource) of the Dodgers and the Yankees and see how SMART he gets!
Oh yeah – Larry: Curley and Moe miss you!