Managed arterials, anyone?
Two views on more tolls
Moderated by Tom Sabulis.
In the wake of the failed transportation tax, Gov. Nathan Deal has declared the door slammed shut on rail expansion. Georgia’s likely future seems to be for roads, roads and more kinds of roads. A think tanker below talks up tolling arterials such as Roswell Road. The Sierra Club, which helped defeat the T-SPLOST and its rail component, doesn’t believe this is a good idea.
Commenting is open below Mark Woodall’s column.
By Robert Poole
When transportation experts compare Atlanta’s congestion problem with that of comparable large urban areas, one major difference leaps out of the data. Atlanta relies far more on its expressways to handle rush-hour traffic than comparable areas.
In Orlando, major roadways called “arterials” handle more traffic than expressways, and Denver’s arterials handle nearly as much as its expressways.
By contrast, Atlanta’s arterials handle only one-fourth as much traffic as its expressways. That’s a major reason why Atlanta’s expressways are among the nation’s most overloaded.
It’s probably way too late to build a modern grid of major arterials in Atlanta, but if some way could be found to make existing arterials like Roswell Road work better, those roads could reduce the burden placed on expressways, easing everyone’s daily commute.
The most obvious way to improve arterials is to widen them, but that is costly and can be politically contentious if landowners don’t wish to sell the needed right of way.
Another good idea is to synchronize traffic lights, so that motorists in the peak direction at rush hour get mostly green lights. Traffic engineers know that delays at intersections can be as big a limit on an arterial’s traffic capacity as the number of lanes.
What if it were possible to increase an arterial’s traffic capacity by more than would happen by adding a lane each way — but without having to widen it? Miami and Fort Myers, Fla., are both looking into this idea. It’s called converting an arterial into a “managed arterial.”
The basic idea is to give motorists a way to bypass traffic signals, by adding overpasses or underpasses to major arterials. Because those “grade separations” are costly to build, a small toll (e.g., 25 cents) would be charged, electronically, for each underpass a motorist used.
Those who didn’t want to pay would use the intersection just as they do today — to go straight or make a left turn or right turn.
It’s the same principle used around the country for express toll lanes on expressways, like the ones now working well on I-85 in Atlanta. You pay only the toll, using Peach Pass, if the value of the faster and more reliable trip is worth it to you.
Could the improvements that convert a regular arterial into a managed arterial pay for themselves? Preliminary studies in Florida cases suggest that as much as 75 percent of the cost of adding a set of overpasses or underpasses could be financed by the toll revenues, leaving the balance to come from conventional transportation revenues (mostly gas taxes).
By contrast, if the alternative of adding lanes each way were pursued, 100 percent of the cost would have to come from gas taxes.
Managed arterials offer metro Atlanta a way to relieve the area’s overburdened expressways, funded largely by voluntary payments by motorists. It’s an option transportation planners should seriously consider.
Robert Poole is director of transportation for the Reason Foundation, a libertarian think tank.
By Mark Woodall
Fresh off the disastrous rollout of “managed lanes” on I-85, the highway lobby is back with its latest innovation for Atlanta — “managed arterials,” the idea of transforming our familiar surface streets into a grid of junior expressways, allowing cars to zip along where now they must wait for lights at intersections.
This transformation would be accomplished by converting existing intersections into “grade-separated” facilities, with underpasses and overpasses that are to be built and maintained by electronic tolls on the drivers who use them. Similar to the I-85 managed lanes, two classes of drivers will result: those willing and able to pay a toll to bypass the intersection, and everyone else, who will sit in traffic on the “unmanaged” lanes that may in fact be worse than it was before.
Lost in this discussion is the fact that these intersections would become stark, industrialized environments once the projects are complete. Residential and commercial properties that have existed for decades could see their access severely curtailed. Pedestrian and bicycle accessibility, already poor on many of these corridors, will become even worse. The only redevelopment options will be intensely automobile-oriented uses, resulting in even more car trips — a perfect example of induced demand. How is this going to reduce congestion?
Time and again, Atlanta has fallen victim to the simplistic notion that the solution to traffic congestion is to build new roadway capacity. Many of our most congested roadways — Interstate 285, for instance, or the current 14-lane incarnation of the Downtown Connector — were originally pitched as “congestion-relief” projects. Such an approach provides short-term relief at best. Eventually, it only serves to perpetuate a development pattern that depends on cars, which quickly overwhelm the new capacity.
It is time for Atlanta to move beyond the idea that traffic congestion is a problem that must be “solved.” Yes, traffic is bad in Atlanta, but so is it in any economically vibrant region where people want to be. In fact, Atlanta doesn’t even rank in the top 10 most-congested metropolitan areas in the country. Traffic in many of the cities we worry about competing with is even worse.
So what are other successful places doing that we aren’t? The answer is not building “managed arterials.” Instead, they are building the multimodal transportation systems the 21st century requires. They are investing in proven options such as commuter and intercity rail. They are addressing issues of regional transportation governance and are creating efficient, integrated systems. They are making the most of their existing transit infrastructure. In other words, things Atlanta has been failing to do.
Make no mistake — Atlanta still has great potential. But we must stop repeating the mistakes of the past and look toward the future and the transportation system we want — one in which residents have choices and one that attracts the businesses and job seekers of today.
Fresh off the disastrous rollout of “managed lanes” on I-85, the highway lobby is back with its latest innovation for Atlanta – “managed arterials,” the idea of transforming our familiar surface streets into a grid of junior expressways, allowing cars to zip along where now they must wait for lights at intersections.
This transformation would be accomplished by converting existing intersections into “grade separated” facilities, with underpasses and overpasses that are to be built and maintained by electronic tolls on the drivers who use them. Similar to the I-85 managed lanes, two classes of drivers will result: those who are willing and able to pay a toll to bypass the intersection, and everyone else, who will sit in traffic on the “unmanaged” lanes that may in fact be worse than it was before.
Lost in this discussion is the fact that these intersections would become stark, industrialized environments once the projects are complete. Residential and commercial properties that have existed for decades could see their access severely curtailed. Pedestrian and bicycle accessibility, already poor on many of these corridors, will become even worse. The only redevelopment options will be intensely automobile-oriented uses, resulting in even more car trips – a perfect example of induced demand. How is this going to reduce congestion?
Time and again, Atlanta has fallen victim to the simplistic notion that the solution to traffic congestion is to build new roadway capacity. Many of our most congested roadways – Interstate 285, for instance, or the current 14-lane incarnation of the Downtown Connector – were originally pitched as “congestion relief” projects. Such an approach provides short-term relief at best. Eventually, it only serves to perpetuate a development pattern that depends on cars, which quickly overwhelm the new capacity.
It is time for Atlanta to move beyond the idea that traffic congestion is a problem that must be “solved.” Yes, traffic is bad in Atlanta, but so is it in any economically vibrant region where people want to be. In fact, Atlanta doesn’t even rank in the top 10 most congested metropolitan areas in the country. Traffic in many of the cities we worry about competing with is even worse.
So what are other successful places doing that we aren’t? The answer is not building “managed arterials.” Instead, they are building the multimodal transportation systems the 21st century requires. They are investing in proven options such as commuter and intercity rail. They are addressing issues of regional transportation governance and are creating efficient, integrated systems. They are making the most of their existing transit infrastructure. In other words, things Atlanta has been failing to do.
Make no mistake – Atlanta still has great potential. But we must stop repeating the mistakes of the past and look toward the future and the transportation system we want – one in which residents have choices and one that attracts the businesses and job seekers of today.
Mark Woodall is chairman of the Georgia chapter of the Sierra Club.
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August 6th, 2012
6:26 pm
Managed arterial’s are a terrible idea. They would look terrible, as they do everywhere they exist. As mentioned, these would definitely be a disaster for pedestrians and cyclists, and in turn would cost $$ just to use. Next idea please. This one is a complete loser.
Patrick
August 6th, 2012
6:42 pm
The idea that traffic congestion in Atlanta is going to lead to the metro’s economic collapse is a canard. Over and again, traffic congestion in all its forms (car drivers, pedestrians, transit users) is a sign of the economic vibrancy of an area.
The only people who have a serious interest in lowering traffic congestion in a region with a healthy economy like Atlanta’s are people with a libertarian bent like Robert Poole and others at the Reason Foundation. That’s because libertarians are such strong defenders of sprawling development styles and the so-called “freedom” to live anywhere you want regardless of where your job is located.
Well, that’s also the “freedom” to make a dumb decision. Traffic congestion hurts you most if you have a long commute from living an unreasonable distance from your job. Expecting taxpayers to band together to provide a fix for your long commute is selfish and — ironically — sounds like the exact kind of public expenditure a libertarian should oppose instead of embrace.
Yes, you are free to live wherever you want. But you should accept the consequences of a long commute if your housing decision brings one upon you. And you should accept that consequence without the expectation that taxpayers at large are somehow required to bail you out of the mess of a long, congested car commute.
Hillbilly D
August 6th, 2012
6:49 pm
It’s the same principle used around the country for express toll lanes on expressways, like the ones now working well on I-85 in Atlanta.
Working well?
ScottNATL
August 6th, 2012
8:07 pm
Managed arterials…give me a break. Not only would they hurt the businesses on the route (can you see businesses on Roswell Rd going for this?), but they would be nothing but more concrete blight.
Transit going where people need to go with increases frequency is they only way to make this better, but Gov. NO Deal aint havin’ that!
SAWB
August 6th, 2012
8:26 pm
We need to slow down a minute here before we start talking about toll bridges with State approved trolls collecting money.
T-SPLOST failed not because people oppose change or paying more money for progress. It failed because it was too large and did not offer enough perceived benefit. We see evidence where people already have voted to tax themselves for various improvements via SPLOST projects. Also, there are a growing number of TADs around town where people volunteer to pay more tax. These initiatives differ from the recently defeated T-SPLOST in that they include projects that people feel will have a real impact on their lives.
zeke
August 6th, 2012
8:50 pm
Where do you left wing nuts come up with these people? More tolls? More limited access caused by tolls or failed hov lanes? More marta? GOD FORBID! The ONLY solution to Atlanta’s traffic congestion is to ROUTE TRAFFIC WITH NO REASON TO BE IN THE 285 FOOTPRINT AWAY FROM IT NOT INTO IT! No reason whatsoever for someone going from Ky to Fl to have to go on the connector or for that matter 285! The OUTER LOOP, THE NORTHERN ARC MANY ARCS, ARE THE ONLY SOLUTION!!! You think the “traffic experts” at the DOT can do anything intelligent or efficient? Just look at spaghetti junction or the mixing bowl! That should quickly change your mind!
KM
August 6th, 2012
9:49 pm
Managed arterials would be a disaster. Agreeing with the poster above who said that metro Atlanta is probably willing to pay for progress, but we’ll actually need to see potential progress in a plan before we vote for it.
I’d like to send a few of our legislators to the UK to see how people there get around… trains (both subways and intercity rail) are convenient, efficient, affordable, and MANAGED BY A SINGLE ENTITY. We need ONE agency to govern transportation, not the multitude we have now.
Bernie
August 7th, 2012
1:03 am
As predicted and expected Georgia’s political Leadership walks away frustrated and angry. Like a petulant child that did not have his way. Gov.Deals refusal to expand rail transportation when we have miles upon miles of already established rail lines going to and from every direction possible. His non-action further demonstrates the level of failure of imagination to make a decision in area where the basic infrastructure of the Rails are already in place.
Good Ole Boy Georgia politics fails us again! Where are all of those wonderful corporate cheerleading CEO’s when their input is truly needed and warranted?
I would say its time for a corporate and political summit to move this issue forward and you can keep the 8 million dollars!
MM
August 7th, 2012
2:27 am
Look at Peachtree Industrial outside the Perimeter for a local preview of the “managed arterials.” What a soulless non-place! A transportation economist’s concrete dream and a human nightmare.
We need fewer road-building fantasies in Atlanta and begin accept that the failure of decades of bad transportation policy is too expensive to fix at this late date. The rubes under the Golden Dome and their short-term thinking masters have made a mess that is too expensive to clean up at a reasonable cost. Failure to intelligently build infrastructure has caused a mess here as it has for the nation as a whole. Atlanta is a city ruined for substantial growth by a lack of vision and willingness to pay for a good future. Fiscal conservatism has brought the city proper to its knees. As noted, no city better illustrates the folly of “free market” libertarian “freedom” than Atlanta.
Many people realized some time ago that Atlanta has been allowed to evolve into a special purpose area for government and educational services. Rope it off for other purposes. The chosen means should be congestion which imposes its own costs on further development.
We need to start over with a cleaner sheet of paper with better political leadership (questionable in a state that elected Tom Watson, Lester Maddox, and Sonny Purdue) and move the energetic growth centers to new greenfields on which more compact and sustainable urban cores can be constructed from scratch. We have already started.
Morning Reads for August 7th, 2012 — Peach Pundit
August 7th, 2012
7:00 am
[...] to cure Atlanta’s traffic, Atlanta Forward debates a 1950′s prescription [AJC] [...]
Tanner
August 7th, 2012
7:13 am
A libertarian myself, I agree with Patrick’s comment above (and not with Tom Sabilus’ recommendations). The libertarian’s answer to a problem with government is usually, “if x were run like a free market, then y problem wouldn’t exist.” Coming to the government-caused problem of traffic jams, Sabulis fails to take that approach.
Instead, his answer – far from market-oriented – embraces liberty in a different sense: the liberty to go fast on surface streets. But that liberty comes at the expense of imposing costs on others, if not in the form of taxes (since he supports a toll), then in the form of urban blight.
Heavy, snarled traffic (and, for that matter, sprawl growth) exist because a driver creates costs that he himself does not have to bear. Market-oriented solutions would make a driver internalize that cost, and less traffic would result. Tolls and gas taxes come the closest to doing this, and many a libertarian would agree that these should be increased before more blight-sprawl-overpass projects are undertaken.
Only if the cost of driving is sufficiently large will projects such as light rail become feasible in any event. Most commenters on the “left” side of the spectrum miss this point, taking instead a “build it and they will come” attitude toward rail projects with stratospherically high price tags. Experience in other U.S. cities shows that rail, without more, is both extremely expensive and extremely underused.
Always Skeptical
August 7th, 2012
7:47 am
Why would deal automatically leap to the conclusion that any and all expansions for “transit” and or rail are now off of the table because of the negative TSPOST vote. Clearly the folks inside 285 want it and the folks outside of 285 don’t. The governor needs to rub his 2 brain cells together and figure out a way to fund road expansions ( that make sense to the people using them) and tolls outside of 285 and expanded rapid transit ( bus, light rail, beltline) inside of 285.
WeNeedAlternatives
August 7th, 2012
9:39 am
So are those ‘managed arterials’ are all going to pay for themselves? I’ll bet they will only line the pockets of the corrupt politicians and highway builders, plus have some serious cost overruns without any oversight.
Ooh, that feels better… it’s fun to turn the tables on the ‘NO’ crowd.
Atlanta Home, Orlando Job
August 7th, 2012
9:42 am
The situation in Orlando is that the Orlando toll way expressway system has very high tolls ($8.25 to go around the city N to S on SR 417, $.75 to go 2 miles East on SR 408 from Rouse Rd to Research Park). The Orlando freeway system is incomplete in connecting job centers with residential centers. The result is that the tollways are not cost effective for many commuters and arterials are the sensible and economical means of getting from point A to point B. It does help that the main Orlando arternials have synchronized lights. In 13 years of living here, they have built only one new arterial overpass where two arterials cross (SR 50 and SR 436). Arterial congestion has mostly been relieved by adding additional lanes to the arterials. The main problem with Orlando arterials is the lack of dedicated lanes at intersections for turns.
MANGLER
August 7th, 2012
10:33 am
It’s going to be hard to get people of the region to approve of regional projects and initiatives until you get the region to start thinking of itself in that way. I’m sure there was a time when the surrounding towns were happy to be part of the larger city in the middle, but that is not the case in the mindset of the individual City Councils or residents today. That’s plainly visible in the “what will this do for me” and the “why should I pay for them” attitudes. When the local leadership can band together and visibly work to achieve cohesion between the cities of the region, the residents will listen. However, when Sandy Springs feels that the needs of Decatur don’t matter to them, and when Lawrenceville doesn’t see that Peachtree City is also important, the infighting will continue.
As for traffic congestion … might I suggest stop looking for ways to get everyone everywhere and focus on the heaviest concentrations of movement? With roads, drivers tend to fill them up wherever they are built. With trains or bus routes, activity tends to congregate around those options. Residents and companies will either sprawl themselves outward or concentrate around transit. But that can be their choice only if those options exist.
ConwayNative
August 7th, 2012
10:33 am
Oh Robert, you can’t be serious. Citing Orlando as a poster child for its effective traffic and congestion management?! I lived there for 40 years, just moving to the Atlanta area six years ago. Traffic in the Orlando area is nightmarish, much due to the poor planning (and sellout) of its political leadership. We may have traffic congestion here in Atlanta, but the folks in Orlando have traffic congestion AND they pay outrageous tolls to sit in it. No thank you.
Tyler B
August 7th, 2012
10:40 am
Seems like Georgia’s transportation engineers are more in it for transportation economy but fail to note that they are NOT urban planners. Such a terrible idea- not to mention the Governor’s refusal to address transit projects is like spitting in the face of progress- we need a multi-faceted transportation system that provides CHOICES.
too little time
August 7th, 2012
10:52 am
” Such an approach provides short-term relief at best. ”
As with the TSPLOST, no one is thinking clearly about this. The building boom is over. It might very well be over for good. The Metro area is restricted by water. Had the SCOTUS not ruled in favor of drinking Lake Lanier, The Metro area would have no water reserves whatsoever. The Great Recession has wiped out the building industry. Any transportation infrastructure improvements now WILL be beneficial for a prolonged period of time. NOW is the time to make transportation infrastructure changes that won’t be immediately overwhelmed by an influx of new building/construction.
jj
August 7th, 2012
11:11 am
Fix the problem: Abolish the SRTA!
Road Scholar
August 7th, 2012
12:00 pm
“It is time for Atlanta to move beyond the idea that traffic congestion is a problem that must be “solved.”
Sucking on the tailpipe of the car in front of you while still stuck in traffic? Do you know, in addition of congestion issues, we have an air quality problem…caused by congestion.
In designing our arterials in the past, developers could not wait to develop the parcels at an intersection. Now with congestion, the traffic backs up at the signals making it near impossible to turn in/out of those parcels. To grade separate those intersections would require huge expenditures on land.
Go to Maryland and other states that have a network of Interstates and limited access arterials. They work as “blood vessels” as the larger one distributes traffic to/from the smaller ones. Here the politicians chased the almighty dollar and has locked us into a system too costly to modify or if modified, turns out like PIB OTP.
Rider Inman
August 7th, 2012
12:40 pm
“Managed Arterials” would be one of the worst ideas ever for this city and would only cause this city to be choked out more by the personal automobile while introducing a new form of urban blight. Options are needed inside the perimeter that don’t revolve around a single occupancy vehicle. Getting ppl to use alternatives inside the perimeter would free up congestion for those coming from outside the perimeter. In addition, introduce tolls for those SOV drivers coming from OTP into the city to help influence ppl’s transportation decisions. Carpools of 3+, vanpools, express bus, etc. would be waived of the toll.
Pouring more concrete will never relieve congestion… true change in the majority’s behavior will.
Morning Reads for August 7th, 2012
August 7th, 2012
12:49 pm
[...] to cure Atlanta’s traffic, Atlanta Forward debates a 1950′s prescription [AJC] [...]
NetBanker
August 7th, 2012
12:56 pm
“libertarians are such strong defenders of sprawling development styles and the so-called “freedom” to live anywhere you want regardless of where your job is located….you should accept the consequences of a long commute if your housing decision brings one upon you. ”
Patrick…I understand the sentiment, but jobs move frequently so taking an approach of deal with the consequences of where you choose to live in is a convenient statement that doesn’t actually solve any problems related to traffic and is entirely impractical on a personal level. In my 17 years in the Atlanta Metro area I have moved my residence 3 times spending 14 of those years in a house in suburbia. During those same 17 years my work locations have moved 9 times between 2 employers. Bank of America moved my office 5 times based on job assignment at the bank and my company has gone through 4 acquisitions resulting in 3 office moves (each further and further north of the city). Based on your logic I should sell my home and move closer to the office each time the office moved farther from me. In at least 4 cases the office moved to an area you would not chose to live in if you have any concern for crime statistics, property values, and school systems.
Transit isn’t just about a daily commute to work. It includes getting to events like ball games, concerts, and enabling visitors to move about the city to take advantage of what is available (it also means you wouldn’t have to cart your visitors around the city and pay for parking, tolls, etc). Heck…even if all we did was improve air quality so kids can actually play outside without having to check the Air Quality Index alert every day in summer by instituting transit it’s a win for everyone and reduces healthcare expenses.
NetBanker
August 7th, 2012
1:10 pm
“introduce tolls for those SOV drivers coming from OTP into the city to help influence ppl’s transportation decisions. Carpools of 3+, vanpools, express bus, etc. would be waived of the toll.” This approach has been successful in London by charging a significant toll to drive into the city center for everyone excepts residents. Traffic was reduced and flows much more freely. That solution only worked because London has excellent rail and subway service as alternatives. I don’t think the solution of getting city drivers off the road to free up space for those coming from outside into the city makes sense…provide alternatives for the longer commuters that allow them to get out of their cars as well. Having ridden a train to work from burbs to city for 7 years I LOVED it. I could read, work, nap, text, whatever without having to deal with idiot drivers or worrying about if the weather is going to impact my commute.
Jack
August 7th, 2012
1:49 pm
The answer to generating funds for transportation improvements has to lie in a toll for using interstate highways.
Moquanisha
August 7th, 2012
2:06 pm
“Managed arterials”, I saw that my first thought was it’s some new nutritional health idea from Mayor Bloomberg.
Seriously, before we invest in expensive new congestion control fads there are low tech basics that need to be implemented that don’t require a T-SPLAT. Synchronize the traffic lights (which Mr. Poole mentions), build roundabouts, widen and keep widening roads until they’re adequate to handle the traffic, extend turn lanes until they’re long enough to accommodate everyone making a lefthand turn, repaint lane and gore lines, upgrade signage, repair potholes (hello DeKalb County), enforce speeding, tailgaiting and pedestrian jaywalking laws. Not rocket science stuff, but the people we pay to manage traffic need to stop bellyaching and just do their jobs.
Rider Inman
August 7th, 2012
2:14 pm
NetBanker,
I agree that we should provide alternatives for those with longer commutes. However, we are reminded daily that the majority of those living OTP are of the “NIMBY” type when it comes to transit. They fear it will bring crime and unfavorable ppl to their precious cookie cutter neighborhoods. We can’t force them to accept transit as a viable transportation solution, so maybe the “core” should refocus and build up it’s transit network (which the ATL Metro TSPLOST vote map showed the core willing to invest in) to ease intown congestion and help bring transit to the modern era here in ATL. In time, with the help of rising gas prices, the outer region will hopefully realize there isn’t any other option but to extend lines out.
Don
August 7th, 2012
3:42 pm
This is probably the first time in my life I’ve actually agreed with the Sierra Club… Yikes!
This notion that you can “fix” traffic congestion is folly. Some of the worst congestion is on the roads we’ve spent the most on expanding capacity over the years.
The notion that you can build transit to “fit” travel patterns developed around roads is folly, too, obviously.
But, the region isn’t static. It is growing – or at least there is a desire for it to grow.
What you build determines how growth occurs. Manhattan didn’t become what it is by building all those skyscrapers and then asking “how are we going to move all those people?” Manhattan and transit grew up together. Building transit is not now and never has been about conversion of existing trips. It’s always been about growth.
If you build roads, you will get more highway oriented development. If you build transit, you will get transit oriented development. This SHOULD be obvious to everyone….
Trips by auto are, and will remain, the primary means of travel from just about every industrialized nation. This does not preclude smart development of transit – they are not mutually exclusive propositions. Neither is always “better” than the other.
Transit will pretty much always require an operating subsidy. This is the red herring that is often tossed into the fray. But the operating subsidy SHOULD BE a trade-off against savings in capital cost for developing the capacity. For example, if you need to move 10,000 commuters an hour, that’s a 10 lane freeway vs. a two track transit line. The highway is going to cost multiples of what the freeway costs to build and will more than offset the ongoing operating cost of the transit line.
Road Scholar
August 7th, 2012
3:48 pm
Zeke:”Where do you left wing nuts come up with these people? ”
The people you are talking about are business people who are mostly conservatives!
” You think the “traffic experts” at the DOT can do anything intelligent or efficient? Just look at spaghetti junction or the mixing bowl! ”
I didn’t see your design submission for this interchange that handles about 4-500,000 cars a day! And you have an engineering degree from where?And how do you plan to pay for your Northern Arc?
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
August 7th, 2012
4:03 pm
Moquanisha
August 7th, 2012
2:06 pm
“Managed arterials”, I saw that my first thought was it’s some new nutritional health idea from Mayor Bloomberg.
{{”Seriously, before we invest in expensive new congestion control fads there are low tech basics that need to be implemented that don’t require a T-SPLAT. Synchronize the traffic lights (which Mr. Poole mentions), build roundabouts, widen and keep widening roads until they’re adequate to handle the traffic”}}
I agree that such low-tech basics as roundabouts at crowded lower and moderate-volume intersections and traffic light synchronization can help traffic flow on surface streets and roads tremendously.
But one of the major problems with our road network is that it is effectively totally and completely built-out in most spots, meaning that most roads cannot either physically or politically be widened any further because of existing heavy commercial and residential development and popular greenspace and thick tree buffers that line both sides of many major arterial roads and freeways.
Roads and freeways can only be expanded so much before it either becomes cost-prohibitive and too politically-contentious or even downright politically-impossible in many cases to do so, which is a point that the Atlanta Region seems to have reached in the aftermath of the defeat of the wildly-unpopular T-SPLOST.
hnbc
August 7th, 2012
4:06 pm
What is Deal’s problem with rail? Why does he want to build more and more roads?
Oh right, he gave his good buddy a job with the DOT … in planning. The only thing his buddy knows is build more roads!
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
August 7th, 2012
4:14 pm
zeke
August 6th, 2012
8:50 pm
Road Scholar
August 7th, 2012
3:48 pm
The Northern Arc isn’t just dead, the Northern Arc is BEYOND DEAD.
Heck, to the Republican-dominated Georgia Legislature, the Northern Arc doesn’t even exist as many of their most powerful constituents in relatively-affluent Forsyth and Cherokee counties in suburban and exurban North Metro Atlanta helped lead the diverse coalition of liberal Intowners, environmentalists and conservative exurbanites that defeated the very unpopular road a decade ago.
Must of the right-of-way of the erstwhile proposed Northern Arc has since been filled-in with heavy amounts of high-end residential development.
The Georgia Department of Transportation even suggested that a new Northern Arc be built much farther out from I-285 than the original Northern Arc was proposed to be, but that idea went nowhere with an indifferent Republican-dominated Legislature that wanted no parts of it and came to power in part by campaigning heavily against the original Northern Arc.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
August 7th, 2012
4:21 pm
hnbc
August 7th, 2012
4:06 pm
Governor Deal did not necessarily say that he wanted to build more roads per se, he just said that the I-285/GA 400 Interchange would be the state’s top transportation priority and that the overwhelming defeat of the T-SPLOST shut the door on further expansion of the rail network as it pertains to MARTA until there is a great amount of reform at MARTA, which, by the way, has a nearly $3 billion long-term operating deficit and is facing financial insolvency the possible end of its operations if something is not done sooner rather than later.
East Cobb RINO, Inc (LLC)
August 7th, 2012
5:54 pm
I lived in Clearwater, Fl in the 80s-90s and they built a series of overpasses along a 5-6 mile stretch of US Hwy 19 (useless 19 as it is known by the locals) over the various other arteries intersecting it. Of course there was a traffic light at each end of these overpasses so all you ended up with was a 5 mile line of cars waiting for the light to change.
The problem with almost every exit from an interstate hwy is the traffic flow comes to a stop to soon. Instead of a traffic light at the end of the ramp, traffic needs to be able to move continuously along the new road for at least 1/4 mile or it just backs up onto the interstate. But what do most exits have? 3 lights in the first 1/8 of a mile.
duke
August 7th, 2012
6:17 pm
Everything does not have to be in Atlanta. Encourage businesses to locate further out. But that goes against Agenda 21,the UN Agenda everybody is implementing without realizing it. The UN actually has a detailed map of the nation, designating various areas as wilderness, etc., with human development limited to closely defined, densely populated urban areas.
Elected governments cannot get voters to approve this, so the UN works through extra-governmental entities. Probably your county has a Land Use Planning Commission, an entity which appears nowhere in any constitution. And who divided Georgia into regions? Was there any public debate in your region? What is the form of government? Who are the governors? How are they selected? What sort of authority do they have under the Constitution, and what sort of accountablility? Nobody knows. In his Farewell Address, George Washington warned that extra-governmental entities are deadly to self-government, even when their operations seem benign and helpful. The only right way to do it is through constitutional officers, who must fight the messy battles to build political consensus among voters.
Sally Flocks
August 7th, 2012
9:42 pm
When planning for the future, Georgia needs to think about more than traffic congestion. The cost of crashes to the region in medical costs, lost wages, and pain and suffering exceeds the cost of traffic congestion dramatically. In addition, research in Florida shows that each pair of through lanes (1 in each direction) added to a road doubles the risk of pedestrian crashes. It also triples the likelihood that the crashes will be fatal.
Data released yesterday by the National Highway Traffic Safety Association shows that the pedestrian death rate per 100,000 residents in Georgia is 25 percent higher than the national rate. In addition, the national rate has improved 19 percent at the same time the rate in Georgia didn’t improve. Data released yesterday also showed that pedestrians now account for 13.5 percent of all traffic fatalities in Georgia. When planning for the future’s transportation needs, the region needs to make the safety of all road users its top priority. Getting home alive is far more important than getting home a minute or two faster.
Steve
August 7th, 2012
9:47 pm
Have you ever driven on an arterial in Atlanta. Crumbling pavement, potholes, mis-timed lights. Now they want to toll them. It would be a complete cluster in this dysfunctional city. Can’t we just pave the roads – traffic would be so much better. And narrowing the turning radius – putting in granite curbs that trucks will destroy and parking spaces in place of traffic lanes (a la P’tree by High museum, Ponce…). I just can’t wait to leave this city. Go to Fort Lauderdale – nice wide, smooth, paved roads with lights that work – and public transit too!
Steve
August 7th, 2012
9:52 pm
Let alone that the roads and cross walks were last painted years ago, and the fact that the streets and interstates are filthy and garbage strewn. The DOT or city sprayed herbicide on Monroe intersection with I-85 five years ago – killing all the beautiful Magnolia trees. The dead trunks are still there. What a filthy city.
GB
August 8th, 2012
7:10 am
“They are investing in proven options such as commuter and intercity rail. ”
Does anyone really believe that this 19th century technology is the answer in the 21st?
Morning Reads for Wednesday, August 8 — Peach Pundit
August 8th, 2012
7:31 am
[...] The Reason Foundation and the Georgia Sierra Club talk toll roads. [...]
Steven
August 8th, 2012
9:55 am
Light rail and improved subway transit. Period. Don’t let us turn into another Los Angeles of sprawl and traffic. Oh wait, we are already like that. But this will never happen with the backwards and ignorant mindsets of the cretins in this part of the country. Sorry, but that’s reality.
Morning Reads for Wednesday, August 8
August 8th, 2012
10:57 am
[...] The Reason Foundation and the Georgia Sierra Club talk toll roads. [...]
Mike
August 8th, 2012
1:33 pm
I have to admire Robert Poole for at least thinking about how to pay for an arterial with tolls rather than taxes. In order to actually pay for a road, you have to collect during the off-peak hours. Not just in the HOT lanes for a few hours of the day. So his solution is either pay the toll or wait through a 3 minutes light.
Rider Inman
August 8th, 2012
4:28 pm
Duke,
STOP with that Agenda 21 garbage, it only makes you sound like a loon conspiracy theorist. What you’re promoting is a non sustainable way of life that has lead to the problems we are facing now, aka SPRAWL. Speaking of the constitution, nowhere in there does it say that we have the right to rape the Earth of its natural resources.