HOF shutout: Bonds, Clemens (and Murph) left out

First-time eligible players Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, the biggest stars implicated in baseball’s steroid era, were turned away by voters for the Baseball Hall of Fame on Wednesday, as was Braves icon Dale Murphy – in his final year on the ballot — and everyone else up for consideration.

For the first time since 1996 and the eighth time since voting began in 1936, no players were elected by voting members of the Baseball Writers’ Association of America. Craig Biggio came closest,  named on 68.2 percent of the 569 ballots in his first year of eligibility and falling 39 votes shy of the 75-percent election requirement.

Bonds had a record seven Most Valuable Player awards and broke Hank Aaron’s hallowed career home-run record, and Clemens finished with more than 300 wins and 4,000 strikeouts to go with a record seven Cy Young Awards. Without question, they would’ve been first-ballot Hall of Famers if not for links to steroids.

Each got only about half of the required votes, Bonds at 36.2 percent (206) and Clemens 37.6 percent (214).

Next year’s Hall of Fame class should have a strong Braves flavor, with 300-game winners Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine considered to be sure-fire selections in their first year on the ballot. Their retired former manager, Bobby Cox, has a good shot at being selected by the veterans committee next winter and inducted alongside two of his former aces.

Braves president John Schuerholz, the team’s longtime former general manager, could also be considered by the the veterans committee next winter, and Murphy figures to be discussed by the committe next winter or at some point in the not-too-distant future.

This was the 15th and final year of eligibility on the writers’ ballot for Murphy, named on 106 ballots (18.6 percent). It was the largest increase (4.1 percent) for any ballot holdover this year, but he still fell short of the personal-best 23.2 percent he received in 2000 in his second year on the ballot.

A two-time National League MVP with the Braves in 1982-1983, Murphy received fewer than 15 percent of the votes for 11 consecutive years prior to this one. Players can remain on the ballot for a maximum of 15 years, if they get at least 5 percent of the votes each year.

“I would love to be in the Hall of Fame, but I’m not sad,” said Murphy, 56, a part-time Braves broadcaster who’ll serve on the coaching staff for Team USA in the World Baseball Classic in March. “I’m very thankful and very happy and very blessed to have the memories and the fan support and the support of the people that I have. I’m very lucky.”

There was talk before Wednesday that Murphy might get a bigger spike in votes after some writers reasoned that rule No. 5 on the voting guidelines, regarding character and integrity, should work in Murphy’s favor if it was going to work against Bonds, Clemens and others sullied by steroid suspicions, including Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire.

The clean-living Murphy has been known since his playing days as one of the nicest guys in the game, his reputation beyond reproach. He said Wednesday that he was disappointed not to have received more votes, but otherwise handled the news in his usual manner.

“I feel very thankful and very happy to have been on the ballot for the Hall of Fame,” he said, “to have been eligible for 15 years, to have had the career I had and to have started it out with the Braves. To have the memories I have and the family support that I have — I feel very happy and lucky to have been able to be a part of this whole thing.”

Fred McGriff, another former Braves slugger, was named on 118 ballots (20.7 percent) in his fourth year on the ballot. He was 13th among this year’s candidates, finishing between Larry Walker (21.6 percent) and Murphy.

McGwire, who admitted to using the steroid androstenedione during his 70-homer season with St. Louis in 1998, was named on 18.6 percent of the ballots, finishing one spot behind Murphy.

“Today’s news that those members of the BBWAA afforded the privilege of casting ballots failed to elect even a single player to the Hall of Fame is unfortunate, if not sad,” said Michael Weiner, executive director of the MLB Players Association, in a statement. “Those empowered to help the Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum document the history of the game failed to recognize the contributions of several Hall of Fame worthy players. To ignore the historic accomplishments of Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, for example, is hard to justify. Moreover, to penalize players exonerated in legal proceedings — and others never even implicated — is simply unfair. The Hall of Fame is supposed to be for the best players to have ever played the game. Several such players were denied access to the Hall today. Hopefully this will be rectified by future voting.”

MLB also released a statement after Wednesday’s voting shutout, with a different tone: “Major League Baseball recognizes that election to the Hall of Fame is our game’s most extraordinary individual honor. Achieving enshrinement in Cooperstown is difficult, as it should be, and there have been seven other years when no one was elected by the Baseball Writers’ Association of America. While this year did not produce an electee, there are many worthy candidates who will merit consideration in the future. We respect both the longstanding process that the Hall of Fame has in place and the role of the BBWAA, whose members have voted in the Hall of Fame’s elections since 1936.”

Jack Morris, whose pitching duel with Atlanta’s John Smoltz in Game 7 of the 1991 Twins-Braves World Series is considered one of the greatest in postseason history, fell short of HOF induction again in his 14th year on the ballot. He got 67.7 percent of the votes to finished second behind Biggio.

Biggio’s former Astros teammate Jeff Bagwell was third with 59.6 percent of the votes in his third year  on the ballot, and former Mets and Dodgers catcher Mike Piazza was fourth with 57.8 percent in his first year of eligibility. Biggio, Bagwell and Piazza appear to be in good position for election in coming years.

Murphy was one of baseball’s elite players from 1980 through 1987, hitting 29 or more homers seven times in that eight-year span, including four consecutive seasons with at least 36 homers and 100 RBIs. He was a seven-time All-Star and five-time Gold Glove winner, and he finished 12th or higher in the league MVP balloting six times.

Injuries contributed to the premature decline in Murphy’s career in his early 30s. After hitting .279 with 310 homers, a .362 OBP and .500 slugging percentage in his first 12 seasons through 1987, he hit .234 with 88 homers, a .307 OBP and .396 slugging percentage in his final six seasons.

Murphy and Bonds now have something in common: Among the 10 winners of multiple NL MVP awards who are eligible for the Hall of Fame, only Murphy and Bonds haven’t been elected.

Murphy could be considered with other expansion-era candidates on the veterans committee next winter. Expansion-era candidates are considered every third year, and the 2014 election (at the December 2013 Winter Meetings) happens to coincide with the first-year of ballot eligibility for Maddux and Glavine.

In 1996, the last time no player was elected by the writers, there were four inductees – managers Earl Weaver and Ned Hanlon, players Jim Bunning and Bill Foster – selected by the veterans committee, with Weaver and Bunning alive to make speeches at the weekend ceremony in Cooperstown. This year, there were no players elected by the writers or the veterans committee.

The only individuals to be enshrined at this year’s July 27-28 Induction weekend in Cooperstown will three veterans committee selection from the pre-integration era, — umpire Hank O’Day, New York Yankees owner Jacob Ruppert and 19th-century player Deacon White — along with winners of the annual media awards, Philadelphia writer Paul Hagen and former Toronto Blue Jays broadcaster Tom Cheek, who died in 2005.

128 comments Add your comment

Rev Buddy Greene

January 9th, 2013
6:34 pm

i wonder if they are going to refund the people who bought their hall of fame vip tickets in advance…

Angel Eyes

January 9th, 2013
6:44 pm

It is a shame that Murph didn’t get in/ Bonds, Clements,and Schilling. No. You cheat you lose

Brava

January 9th, 2013
6:48 pm

I’d like to have seen Murph get in, but the voters got it right where the cheaters and suspected cheaters are concerned. Overall, a great day for the game of baseball.

Way Cool, Jr.

January 9th, 2013
6:51 pm

Halls of Fame should be for the elite, the very, very best

Too many very good or exceptional players are getting in, guys who were consistently good – not great, for many years, compiling career stats that put them on the same level with the greats of the game.

Mixxo

January 9th, 2013
6:56 pm

No care…..one iota!

Deal with it.

Fols

January 9th, 2013
7:34 pm

You know there is an error in the system when greats like Murph can’t get in…especially on a year nobody is getting in. These are the cases that come up years later when the player passes away and the league looks like a bunch of fools for never granting the man a chance to be honored at the highest level.

Murph you deserve to be in there!

aburtch

January 9th, 2013
9:13 pm

Dale Murphy is a Hall of Fame baseball player, period. He was the best player for the entire decade of the 1980’s and deserves to be in the hall.

Ken Stallings

January 9th, 2013
9:16 pm

As I wrote in reply to Jeff Schultz’s column on the subject, this is a total disgrace! I’m angry about Murphy failing to ever be elected, but now I’m even more angered by no deserving player being elected from this ballot. For the record, I don’t include the steroid-tainted players such as Bonds, McGuire, Clemens, Palmero, and Sosa as being deserving because they cheated the game and therefore fail on the sportsmanship and character tests.

However, there is no excuse for players like Fred McGriff, Craig Biggio, Jack Morris, Tim Raines, and Mike Piazza to be left out. McGriff barely earned 20% of votes and he was a dominant first baseman during his era of play! So was Raines, Biggio, and Morris.

It’s just gotten stupid and frankly I’ve had enough. I want the voting privilege permanently taken away from the BBWAA. The writers have made it way too hard to get into the Hall and no baseball needs to put the honor back into the hall and have the living hall of fame members vote for each class.

[...] Basbeball Club News – HOF shutout: Bonds, Clemens (and Murph) left out – Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) New YorkerHOF shutout: Bonds, Clemens (and Murph) left outAtlanta Journal Constitution [...]

Bob the Blogger

January 9th, 2013
10:29 pm

Mr. Stallings hit the nail on the head. As Jeff Schultz pointed out, the baseball BBWAA are not the most qualified voters. Some don’t even cover the sport on a regular basis, and other baseball writers, such as our beloved DOB, aren’t allowed to vote because of their employers’ policies.

There are a lot of qualified people who can cast votes. These include reporters who cover baseball exclusively in any media, such as broadcasters, along with former players and managers, and baseball statisticians. I don’t know about including fans; they tend to vote with their hearts. No one group needs to dominate the voting, but the results just have not been logical. McGriff is the perfect example.

Abnerish

January 9th, 2013
10:59 pm

Murph is not sad, but I am. It is a shame that so many baseball writers are so ignorant. I am confident, however, that the Veterans Committee will do the right thing and elect him in the next few years. If he gets elected, I will make the trip to Cooperstown with my son to watch my childhood idol join the greats of the game – where he belongs.

David O'Brien

January 10th, 2013
12:12 am

Ernesto Mejia hit in hand by a pitch tonight in Venezuela, but X-rays negative (which is, of course, a positive)

John Leonard

January 10th, 2013
2:47 am

The H.O.F.vote should not be left to the bbwaa.The large vote for the roiders is a disgrace.The vote should be by the players with at least five years of mlb playing or coaching experience.

Disgusted

January 10th, 2013
3:43 am

“It’s just gotten stupid and frankly I’ve had enough. I want the voting privilege permanently taken away from the BBWAA. The writers have made it way too hard to get into the Hall and no baseball needs to put the honor back into the hall and have the living hall of fame members vote for each class”

Spot on — some of these writers are just a bunch of elitist jerks & their knowledge of the game is questionable.

Look how long it took for poor Ron Santo to get in — he was just a tad behind Brooks Robinson in his era and truthfully was a better hitter, he did not get to enjoy it in his lifetime. And they missed the boat on Gil Hodges and continue to do so.

Jack Morris was a winner who made his starts and finished what he started. Not to mention adding his post season record and being a WS champion on 3 different teams . But that is not good enough anymore. Its about how many K’s you get this day in time.

The stinking sabermetric community makes me puke.

And they keep screwing Fred Mc Griff too. I sort of get the Murphy omission cause of his precipitous decline after age 31 though I do not like it. Truth is that Murph lost 14 poiints off his BA after 1987 and who knows how many points off his OBA due to his declining yrs.

Had had a .279 BA up through 87. Another 50 HRS and closer to 1500 RBI’s and he would have gotten more considearation.

That Biggio did not get in is a joke. And what is the problem with Tim Raines — those writers are a joke.

Disgusted

January 10th, 2013
3:47 am

I would not want to give the vote to the fans — look at the All-Star votes.

Tim Raines has been totally overlooked.

Biggio, Bagwell and Piazza should make it in time but why do they have to wait??????

Way Cool, Jr.

January 10th, 2013
6:47 am

No way the fans should get the vote. It should be left to legitimate baseball historians and retired players/managers/coaches.

Reality

January 10th, 2013
7:13 am

Everybody loves Dale Murphy who has a special place in my mind and heart as well.

Having said that, Murphy’s best years were 1982-1987; 5 of those 6 seasons Murph was exceptional.

Now take a look at his stats before 1982 and after 1987. There is a massive drop off in overall performance at the plate. He drove in 100 runs only 5 times during his career.

Someone above said he was the best player of the 1980s. Statistically, hardly.

Mr Maggot

January 10th, 2013
7:13 am

“However, there is no excuse for players like Fred McGriff, Craig Biggio, Jack Morris, Tim Raines, and Mike Piazza to be left out. McGriff barely earned 20% of votes and he was a dominant first baseman during his era of play! So was Raines, Biggio, and Morris.’?”

Exactly how have we determined with 100% confidence that these guys were ‘clean on and off the field’? During much of this time MLB was not testing and PEDs were not prohibited in the CBA, nor were they illegal if prescribed properly. So, if some players flew under the radar and didn’t make the mistake of broadcasting their useage to others……we’ve just simply concluded that these are OK dudes and will just continue to repeat it as if it’s a fact? Let’s not be simpletons, guys.

Mr Maggot

January 10th, 2013
7:23 am

“Murph is not sad, but I am.”

Can’t we just categorize our feelings along the lines of ‘disappointed’. Being sad or angry kind of overdramatizes somebody we don’t know getting/not getting into the HOF.

Have we resolved our LF issue, yet?

Mr Maggot

January 10th, 2013
7:26 am

“Someone above said he was the best player of the 1980s. Statistically, hardly.”

Yeah,I read that, too, and my recollection without looking up stats was that this statement was an exageration.

Reality

January 10th, 2013
7:45 am

Following up on what I stated above. Murph drove in 100 or more runs 5x during his career. So I thought I’d check on 90+ RBI seasons. Again, it was the same 5 years he had 100 or more. So other than the 5 seasons, his averahe RBI totals were typically in the 70s and 80s; and exceeded that only 5x during his career.

I’m sorry, those are not Hall of Fame numbers, nor do they put him in the best player of the 1980s category..

By the numbers

January 10th, 2013
8:24 am

Here’s the link to Dale Murphy’s career and statistics:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/murphda05.shtml

Bob the Blogger

January 10th, 2013
8:52 am

It may be surprising, but Mantle only drove in 100 or more runs four times. But he drove in 90 or more five other times and had over 1500 ribbies.

It’s pretty clear that McGriff didn’t do steroids. He was thin as a rail his entire career. He looked nothing like the hulking monsters of the late ’90s and early 2000s. And he didn’t have an unusual peak in HRs later in his career. He had 7 consecutive 30+ HR seasons up through age 30, then 3 seasons of 30+ HR seasons from 31 on.

Hankie Aron

January 10th, 2013
9:05 am

Fred Mcgriff is my favorite player so I’m biased but if he had hit just 7 more homers, then I think he would be a shoe-in. How many 500 hr hitters are left out of the HOF?

Hankie Aron

January 10th, 2013
9:05 am

Fred Mcgriff is my favorite player so I’m biased but if he had hit just 7 more homers, then I think he would be a shoe-in. How many 500 hr hitters are left out of the HOF?

By the numbers

January 10th, 2013
9:09 am

Mantle also had over 500 homers, 3 MVP awards, a Triple Crown & a handful of World Series rings

By the numbers

January 10th, 2013
9:14 am

Here’s an interesting comparison of Fred McGriff to Hall of Famer Tony Perez:

McGriff: 493 HRS, 1550 RBIS .284 BA, 12 seasons of 90+ RBIS

Perez: 379 HRS, 1652 RBIS .279 BA , 12 seasons of 90+ RBIS

Hmm.

Disgusted

January 10th, 2013
9:17 am

I was watching Brian Kenny’s breakdown on Mc Griff and he concluded that he is a legitimate HOF player.

He compared favorably with HOFers like Harmon Killebrew, Orlando Cepeda, Tony Perez and a few others. And Brian Kenny is a sabermetric type who goes by OPS and OPS plus, etc.

Mc Griff’s post season numbers compared well to other HOFers.

The writers have missed the boat on him.

Hoosier Aaron

January 10th, 2013
9:18 am

The HoF voting process has become a joke.

I still say that if Koufax was on the ballot today, he would not be inducted.
Not enough wins and “his dominance was too short of a time frame”. Clueless voters.

It’s not about who is worthy, it’s about the voters making some kind of point.
Nothing about Biggio says he shouldn’t be in the HoF. But apparently he’s not “First Ballot Worthy” – whatever that means.
There is no doubt Maddux will not receive 100% of the votes because some voter thinks that “Well, he’ll get in but no player has ever gotten 100% so I’m not voting for him or I’ll turn my ballot in blank.”

I’d like to see the ballots made public so that voters have to answer questions about why they voted a certain way. Honestly, if you don’t vote for Maddux you should lose your right to vote.

Disgusted

January 10th, 2013
9:23 am

If Murphy was not the top player in the 80’s he was unquestonably in the top 3 or 4.

I’ll give you Mattngly and Mike Schmidt if you want to critique Murphy. You might even make a case for George Brett. But that is it as anyone being better than Murph as far as the 80’s go.

It was that dam rapid fall off that got Dale. Its judgement and everyone has biases, my bias would be to put him in — there is enough there though I do understand those who would vote no on Dale.

Those who vote no for Mc Griff are uninformed in plain English.

I hate to say it but its gonna take the vets committee to make the Mc Griff snub right. That takes time and for a couple of guys even they do not get itright eh– Gill Hodges.

Disgusted

January 10th, 2013
9:24 am

Tony Perez was better known because he was part of those well known Big Red Machine teams.

And in those mid 70’s. baseball was the true national pasttime.

Disgusted

January 10th, 2013
9:27 am

I wonder if the voters of today will snub Pedro Martinez due to he being dominant a short time.

And he won in the low 200’s. Even if his dominance was similar to Koufax for a six yr run.

By the numbers

January 10th, 2013
9:38 am

Koufax had to retire at age 32 due to serious health reasons. He may have been the greatest pitcher who ever lived. He won 3 Cy Youngs, had 4 no hitters, and the list goes on.

Would you keep Dizzy Dean out? He only won 150 career games in a shortened career.

Disgusted

January 10th, 2013
9:38 am

Some of those #$@! stinking worthless idiotic voters are not even following the game on a day by day basis anymore. Some of the voters are editors who are not even baseball specialists

Those bastards should have their HOF ballots taken from them and give the ballots to people who are up on the game today.

Those who do not vote for Mc Griff deserve to be lobotomized. They clearly have no clue for the game. They should be put in jail for life.

I feel almost as strong for Jack Morris and sadly he is going to be ripped off by those jerks. Some of that blame can be put on the sabermetric community — because its no longer about getting guys out — its all about SO’s, FIP, etc.

Unfortunately the process will never change. The powers that be and the BBWA will never allow it.

Arrogant schmucks

860Braves

January 10th, 2013
9:41 am

DOB

Planning a road trip around the 4th of July to South Carolina, then stopping in ATL for two home games vs. Florida (hell of a commute for Logan Morrison), and finally NOLA for my buddies wedding, the impetus for all of this. I’d love a couple of BBQ suggestions for somewhere in the Charleston area, ATL, NOLA, or anywhere in between. Don’t often travel by car so want to maximize the trip and after reading about all these places on the blog for years, I gotta check some out. Thanks a lot, and a belated Happy New Year.

Disgusted

January 10th, 2013
9:42 am

I would have loved it if Murph would have come out and just told the BBWA to kiss my sitting hole.

But that is not his style.

If Morris does not get in next yr I hope he verbally rips the whole process and the writers. They deserve it.

Bubba knows BBQ

January 10th, 2013
10:03 am

“Planning a road trip around the 4th of July to South Carolina, then stopping in ATL for two home games vs. Florida (hell of a commute for Logan Morrison), and finally NOLA for my buddies wedding, the impetus for all of this. I’d love a couple of BBQ suggestions for somewhere in the Charleston area, ATL, NOLA, or anywhere in between.”

860Braves,

In Atlanta try Fat Matt’s Rib Shack and Fox Brothers BBQ. Just google them for directions.

South of Atlanta there is Fresh Air BBQ, the original location in Jackson, GA (since 1929). There is also a location in Macon off of I-75.

860Braves

January 10th, 2013
10:15 am

Thanks, Bubba. I’ve def. read Fox Bros. before on here. Will investigate.

Bubba knows BBQ

January 10th, 2013
10:17 am

If you are in Kennesaw, a new favorite of mine is The Big Shanty Smokehouse.

Hoosier Aaron

January 10th, 2013
10:36 am

You mentioned Pedro Martinez being dominate.
I remember watching Pedro pitch against the Braves once. The first pitch he threw started off knee high and crossed the plate just below the tomahawk. I knew after one pitch that game was over. It looked like he was throwing a frisbee.

I drove to Cincinnati to watch Maddux pitch once, the one-way trip (2 hours) was longer than the time of the game.

I saw Clemens pitch against the Cubs at Wrigley about 10 years ago..absolutely amazing.
Besides his dominance, I was amazed that he was standing on the rubber ready to warm up before any of his fielders were at their position.

I saw Seaver 4 or 5 times in Cincinnati. As a life-long Braves fan it’s hard to say (because of Maddux) but Seaver might be the best pitcher I ever saw in person.

When they belong in the Hall of Fame – you know it.

single white dove

January 10th, 2013
10:37 am

Its prejudice against south, those northern a-holes. Im a first gen southerner. I can say that Jim Rice got in the Hall. Murph was a two time MVP. MVP’s are not handed out to everyone. So those SOB’s wasted all their votes on steroid users? These are the same two faced bastards that looked down upon and wanted these people heads. So then they cast/waste their votes on the drug users. What message does that send to society? Shouldnt the real message be: Dont do the crime if you wont do the time? I feel that the real injustice was murphy. He wasnt a drug user, he wasnt a womanizer, and he wasnt a law breaker. He was a model citizen. One that children could look up to. I dont think i can look at the sports writers agian in the same light…

[...] HOF shutout: Bonds, Clemens (and Murph) left out [...]

Bravothusiast

January 10th, 2013
10:48 am

“Mantle also had over 500 homers, 3 MVP awards, a Triple Crown & a handful of World Series rings”

Mantle also injected steroids and amphetamines, you know, PEDs. There’s lots of cheaters in the HOF, it’s been part of the sport since the beginning. PEDs, spitballs, sandpaper, stealing signs from the outfield… it’s all part of the game’s history. For the BBWAA to be able to pick and choose which cheaters get in is a little crazy. Who are they to tell the fans what their moral compass should be? They should just let the best players in and let the fans perceive it as they will. The HOF shows the history of the game’s best players. Barry Bonds is one of the game’s best players of all time and should be in.

Mr Maggot

January 10th, 2013
11:02 am

“For the BBWAA to be able to pick and choose which cheaters get in is a little crazy.”

Good post, but missed the point that they don’t even know, for the most part, who cheated and who didn’t, unless they already admitted it or were caught.

Bravothusiast

January 10th, 2013
11:08 am

^Very true. A lot of them associate Jeff Bagwell with PEDs just because he has big muscles, which is just ridiculous.

Reality

January 10th, 2013
11:08 am

“I feel that the real injustice was murphy. He wasnt a drug user, he wasnt a womanizer, and he wasnt a law breaker. He was a model citizen. One that children could look up to.” – single white dove

Based on those great attributes Murph should be in the Hall of Fame?

The Hall of Fame includes a murderer, numerous alcoholics, womanizers, non-steroid & HGH drug users, etc., but they put up numbers to be deemed Hall worthy.

Murph’s numbers do not add up in my estimation. Click the link above @ 8:24AM and see for yourself.

cornjolio

January 10th, 2013
11:11 am

“Its prejudice against south, those northern a-holes. Im a first gen southerner” – single white dove

What is a first generation southerner? Does that mean you or your parents just moved here?

Brava

January 10th, 2013
11:13 am

I am sickened and disgusted by the argument that roiders should be let into the HOF because there are already cheaters in there. As a baseball fan, I’d like to see the sport progress and take all steps possible to clean up its image. To let these players in diminishes and tarnishes the stature of the Hall.

I assure you that a player today will think twice about using PEDs if he sees the likes of Bonds and Clemens being denied entry into the HOF. However, if they are voted in, it will be an incentive for those who think they can cheat the system (and there are some, as we’ve seen the past few years) to continue cheating their fellow players who choose to do it the right way and all fans of baseball.

Mr Maggot

January 10th, 2013
11:30 am

“I am sickened and disgusted …….”

Can’t we limit these emotions to being simply disappointed? Seems so overdramatic…….

Bravothusiast

January 10th, 2013
11:32 am

“I assure you that a player today will think twice about using PEDs if he sees the likes of Bonds and Clemens being denied entry into the HOF.”

BS. Players cheat because they want to be better then and there in order to win and get a bigger paycheck. The possibility of not making it into the HOF 20 years down the road will not even cross their mind. If they felt they had to cheat in order to be good enough for HOF consideration then they wouldn’t have made in the HOF to begin with. That’s not a credible deterrent and that assumption holds no water.

Bud Selig & Co turned a blind eye to the issue, and it became a big part of baseball history. You don’t omit a certain part of history just because it is ugly. You include the good, the bad and the ugly and learn from it. MLB has learned from their wrongs and are taking measures to make it right. In the meantime, the HOF stories the best players in the history of baseball and Bonds and Clemens were the best. There’s no way to tell, first of all, how many PEDs they actually took if any, and second of all, how to quantify their effects on the player’s performance. There is, however, no denying the magical numbers those players produced.

cornjolio

January 10th, 2013
11:42 am

“There is, however, no denying the magical numbers those players produced.” – Bravothusiast

I think you are smoking something “magical” !

Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, et al tainted the game; there is a stain on it that needs to be cleaned up. Selig and the owners were complicit by their inactions.

How about the fans that paid their hard-earned money to watch their favorite team get BEAT due to chemical enhancements by a Bonds or McGwire homerun, or a Clemens pitching performance. Shouldn’t they get reimbursed?

Have you seen McGwire or Bonds recently ? Their physical size & headshape have magically shrunk since they retired . Must be magic !

Brava

January 10th, 2013
11:42 am

Maggot,

I don’t need some anonymous poster on a board to tell me how I should feel about anything. Thanks.

Disgusted

January 10th, 2013
11:43 am

Like how current events are percieved in modern day American society, the BBWAA is divided as to what a Hall of Famer really is.

Hey, even the fans are divided as to what constitutes a roductive player — you have the sabermetric community vs the traditionalists chipping at each other.

We live in a divided time — the HOF vote this day in time is a microcosim of 21st centurn society in general.

We live in a time of information overload and how it should be applied — it happens in business, academics, etc.

Has it not been said that baseball is a microcosim of society in the past???????? Well, this is a small example.

In the end, life goes on — this is no tragedy to the game but just another PIA prolonged debate. This day in time its hard to get 75 percent of a group of 569 to agree on much.

Disgusted

January 10th, 2013
11:46 am

Bad typo — meant productive player, not roductive.

Disgusted

January 10th, 2013
11:46 am

Bad typo — meant productive player, not roductive.

Brava

January 10th, 2013
11:46 am

The possibility of not making it into the HOF 20 years down the road will not even cross their mind.

Baloney.

Brava

January 10th, 2013
11:47 am

The possibility of not making it into the HOF 20 years down the road will not even cross their mind.

Baloney. That is the ultimate honor which can be bestowed on a player. You won’t convince me it will not cross their mind.

Bravothusiast

January 10th, 2013
12:01 pm

cornjulio, if your argument is that they shouldn’t be in the HOF because their “stain” on the game should be cleaned up, then you have to go back throughout history and figure out who all has cheated and kick them out of the HOF. You can’t have it both ways. If you want the Hall of Fame to be the Hall of Purity, that’s fine, but you have to do the near impossible task of figuring out who wasn’t pure. I don’t think the HOF should be constructed that way. I think it should tell the history of the game’s greats. That’s just my opinion though.

Brava, I’m sure Melky Cabrera would have thought twice about taking PEDs if he thought he wouldn’t get into the HOF. Gimme a break. To him, it was the difference between a possible $75M contract and making the league minimum. That’s all the incentive you need. And guess what, he got caught and didn’t get that contract he wanted. The league’s evolving drug policy stopped him, not the possibility of being omitted from the HOF.

Wes Jorga

January 10th, 2013
12:03 pm

Roger Maris also won 2 MVPs. He broke the HR record and won a gold glove. Did not make hall of fame.

[...] – in his final year on the ballot — and everyone else up for consideration. For the Source: Atlanta Braves – Dave O Share this: Posted in: Braves Cancel [...]

Brava

January 10th, 2013
12:21 pm

cornjulio, if your argument is that they shouldn’t be in the HOF because their “stain” on the game should be cleaned up, then you have to go back throughout history and figure out who all has cheated and kick them out of the HOF. You can’t have it both ways. If you want the Hall of Fame to be the Hall of Purity, that’s fine, but you have to do the near impossible task of figuring out who wasn’t pure. I don’t think the HOF should be constructed that way. I think it should tell the history of the game’s greats. That’s just my opinion though.

I disagree with this. The players who are in the HOF are a reflection of their times and the judgement and morals of the writers who voted them in during those times. No one who has been inducted needs to be removed to create a “Hall of Purity”. But, to use the fact that cheaters and scoundrels were inducted by prior generations of voters as justification for enshrining perhaps the most prolific cheaters of all time, those who altered their bodies to give them super-human advantages over other players is just wrong, in my humble opinion.

History is replete with examples of people finally saying, enough is enough, and correcting long-standing injustices. That is how society progresses. The baseball writers had a chance to get this right and, yesterday, the majority of them sent a message that they would not further tarnish the image of the Hall by adding more cheaters to its rolls. I applaud the 60-plus% who did so. Hopefully, they’ll stick to their guns and the likes of Bonds, McGwire, Clemens, Sosa, Palmeiro and all their cheating ilk will never be honored in the HOF.

Brava

January 10th, 2013
12:24 pm

Bravothusiast,

I’m sure Melky never deluded himself into thinking he would go into the HOF. Let’s be serious, here.

The Truth....

January 10th, 2013
12:24 pm

Maybe there could be a section in the HOF called ” I’m not as good as Mickey or Hank but I’m pretty good”? Or a room called ” I’m a Hall of famer but I had a few issues along the way’? That way a few more of these guys on the fence can get in there…..?

The Truth....

January 10th, 2013
12:26 pm

ROGER MARIS AND PETE ROSE SHOULD BE IN HOF!

Bravothusiast

January 10th, 2013
12:45 pm

“I’m sure Melky never deluded himself into thinking he would go into the HOF. Let’s be serious, here.”

Exactly. Omitting people from the HOF is not a deterrent for PED use.

“The players who are in the HOF are a reflection of their times and the judgement and morals of the writers who voted them in during those times.”

Boom. Right there. These voters who are omitting them from their ballots are the exact same writers that KNEW of the rampant drug use and didn’t do anything about it. Everybody knew. Selig, the owners, the managers, and yes, even the media. They knew.
BBWAA ELECTION RULES
2. Electors: Only active and honorary members of the Baseball Writers’ Association of America, who have been active baseball writers for at least ten (10) years, shall be eligible to vote. They must have been active as baseball writers and members of the Association for a period beginning at least ten (10) years prior to the date of election in which they are voting.

^According to HOF voting rules, baseball writers have to have been covering the game for at least 10 years in order to get a vote. So you see, almost all of the voters are the same people who once turned a blind eye. A reflection of the times you say? Then why are players from the steroid era not being voted in? That doesn’t make any sense to me.

Mr Maggot

January 10th, 2013
12:51 pm

“I don’t need some anonymous poster on a board to tell me how I should feel about anything. Thanks.”

To be sickened about who doesn’t get in the HOF when you have nothing at stake except blog postings…c’mon, overdramatic, right?

2hot scott

January 10th, 2013
1:15 pm

My problem is not that no one got in. My problem is that 5 of the witers/electors returned blank ballots. This means that in their opinion, no one who was eligible this year, whether it was their 1st year on the ballot or their 15th. In my opinion, there is at least one player per year that deserves to be in the HOF. In Biggio’s case, he got 3,000 hits, that’s an automatic. When a writer who has been covering the game for at least 10 years decides that no one is worthy of their HOF vote and returns a blank ballot, they are not doing their job as a HOF voter and should not be allowed to vote in the future. The opinion of a writer then outweighs a player’s career.

bvillebaron

January 10th, 2013
1:33 pm

Someone should tell Mr. Weiner to get a little cheese to go along with his whine. Seems to me the “chickens came home to roost” yesterday. The players’ union has no one to blame but itself for the thumbs down it received yesterday in the Hall of Fame voting. Mr. Miller adamantly opposed drug testing for years and, at least on one occasion as I recall it, told MLB when it brought up random drug testing (the only effective type of testing) during negotiations that this was a deal breaker. Miller even continued to criticize drug testing after Congress forced the union to usher itself into the 21st century and essentially mandated it.

I agree with Tom Verducci who wrote an excellent column the other day; if I had a vote, I would never vote for anyone who was proved to have taken or admitted taking PEDs. I found Jim Bowden’s comment the other day on the MLB satellite channel to be beyond ridiculous. He basically said that he found that it would be a great “injustice” if the best players he saw while serving as a former GM and otherwise being involved in baseball, including proven users such as Bonds (I never knowingly took PEDs, I was told it was flaxseed oil–LOL) never got into the Hall. He also tried to defend their candidacy with the tired “many others were using it as well”. Two thoughts for Mr. Bowden and those who think like him.

First, the fact that others were using and haven’t been caught is not a defense. That is like trying to defend a speeding ticket by telling the judge that there were a lot of other cars who were speeding who weren’t stopped by the cop. Try that defense at your next hearing and get back to me and let me know how successful it was.

Second, I just turned 60 this past year and I grew up following baseball during what I consider to be the golden era (i.e. after the color barrier was broken and before expansion and smaller ball parks diluted pitching). I for one think that it is an even a greater injustice Mr. Bowden that the greatest player I ever saw, Hank Aaron (and yes I saw Mays and Clemente in person too) no longer hold the record for the most homers in MLB history because it was broken by a lousy 7 homers by one of the biggest cheaters in the history of baseball–Barry Bonds.

Finally, I find all this whining by the players to be disengenous; they knew damn well they were cheating and gaining a tremdous advantage by taking PEDs which helped many of them put up better numbers in their mid to late 30s than they did earlier in their careers (which of course makes no sense physiologically). Spare me the indignation and crocodile tears!

Brava

January 10th, 2013
1:34 pm

To be sickened about who doesn’t get in the HOF when you have nothing at stake except blog postings…c’mon, overdramatic, right?
Again, your opinion about my feelings is inconsequential and does not, in any way, change my thoughts on this issue.

For the record, you’re missing the point. I’m not sickened about who doesn’t get into the HOF, I’m sickened by the attitude that’s it’s okay to induct cheaters because there are already cheaters in the HOF.

Brava

January 10th, 2013
1:37 pm

bvillebaron,

Very well stated, sir. I agree fully.

oasisbraves

January 10th, 2013
1:42 pm

DOB…what about John Scheurholz? He could go in next year as well, correct?

oasisbraves

January 10th, 2013
1:42 pm

DOB…what about John Scheurholz? He could go in next year as well, correct?

Brava

January 10th, 2013
1:42 pm

Exactly. Omitting people from the HOF is not a deterrent for PED use.

You cannot make such a blanket statement and expect to be taken seriously. Of course it would likely be a consideration to a player who may be borderline HOF caliber and considering something that could push him over the edge. Melky wasn’t that player when he decided to enhance his performance by cheating, so no, I doubt he thought about it.

oasisbraves

January 10th, 2013
1:47 pm

I dont understand when Mike Schmidt said the players who were clean didnt speak up either….what does that mean? What were they supposed to say? I agree baseball (Bud Selig) and company turned a blind eye at the time…but what were individual players supposed to do?

AND..I feel sorry for the minor leaguers at that time who saw the playing field change by PED use and left with the decision to either CHEAT in order to compete, or NOT CHEAT and risk never being called up.

A lesson needs to be learned here, and that can only be done by Electing them ALL into the Hall of Fame, so that we can SEE and REMEMBER everything for generations to come.

Brava

January 10th, 2013
1:48 pm

Boom. Right there. These voters who are omitting them from their ballots are the exact same writers that KNEW of the rampant drug use and didn’t do anything about it. Everybody knew. Selig, the owners, the managers, and yes, even the media. They knew.

This is true, but has absolutely nothing to do with whether the players who chose to use PEDs and got caught should be inducted in the HOF. The two issues are separate.

Who really knows? Maybe some see this as a chance to right a wrong they felt powerless to address in the past? Their motivation doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things because, like all elections, each vote is an individual choice and it’s the collective result that matters.

Brava

January 10th, 2013
2:00 pm

A lesson needs to be learned here, and that can only be done by Electing them ALL into the Hall of Fame, so that we can SEE and REMEMBER everything for generations to come

Why reward and honor those who we know chose to cheat the game, their peers and the fans? What kind of message does that send to today’s players? I highly doubt they will never be forgotten whether or not they are enshrined in the Hall.

jbill

January 10th, 2013
2:01 pm

Murphy will always be a HOF’er in my baseball heart. Some of my greatest days was at The Ted watching Murphy. He always signed my hat, glove, etc and was always a super nice player plus my MVP. Dale Murphy is a great example of what a BRAVES player should be. Now I enjoy him calling games..hope he does more. Go Braves.

Brava

January 10th, 2013
2:01 pm

Ever, not never

Bravothusiast

January 10th, 2013
2:04 pm

Brava, so you’re saying it might be a consideration for a few players who are borderline? Maybe a dozen people? I mean, sure… maybe. But there’s no way to really know. “Because we didn’t let in any suspected PED users, we might have stopped somebody like Jack Morris from using. Maybe. But we don’t really know.” Ok, great? What have you really accomplished there?

You either think the suspected cheaters should be banned from the hall, or you think everybody should be included and tell the history as it happened. Either opinion is fine, it’s just that, an opinion of what the HOF should be. And I certainly respect your opinion and am enjoying the discussion. But to say we should deny the steroid era players from the hall because it will stop other players from using doesn’t hold any weight IMO. I just don’t see it, and there’s no way to prove that actually works.

Bravothusiast

January 10th, 2013
2:12 pm

“This is true, but has absolutely nothing to do with whether the players who chose to use PEDs and got caught should be inducted in the HOF. The two issues are separate.”

How is that separate? You said the hall should be a reflection of their times and the judgement and morals of the writers who voted them in during those times. I’m saying according to that view, they should be voted in. What am I missing?

Brava

January 10th, 2013
2:20 pm

But to say we should deny the steroid era players from the hall because it will stop other players from using doesn’t hold any weight IMO. I just don’t see it, and there’s no way to prove that actually works.

And there’s no way to prove it doesn’t, but I would think knowing that your choice to use PEDs could keep you out of the HOF if you got caught would weigh heavily on a player who stood a chance to get in to begin with, much like the thought of going to prison must weigh on those financially strapped enough to contemplate robbing a bank. But, this is all supposition on both our parts.

My final thought is, we all have choices and there should be consequences for bad ones.

Disgusted

January 10th, 2013
2:22 pm

Roger Maris also won 2 MVPs. He broke the HR record and won a gold glove. Did not make hall of fame.”

Take away three dominant years from 1960 to 1962, you have a pretty ordinary player.

At least you can make a case for Murphy and Mattingley who did have a substantial period of time when they were dominant.

Maris completely fell off & in STL, he was not even a 10 HR a year man. Not that long a career either.

Brava

January 10th, 2013
2:22 pm

How is that separate? You said the hall should be a reflection of their times and the judgement and morals of the writers who voted them in during those times. I’m saying according to that view, they should be voted in. What am I missing?

Why? The writers didn’t use the PEDs. Just because they did nothing about it, doesn’t mean they have an obligation to put those who made the choice to cheat in the HOF. That supposition is absurd to me.

Bravothusiast

January 10th, 2013
2:25 pm

“Murphy will always be a HOF’er in my baseball heart. Some of my greatest days was at The Ted watching Murphy. He always signed my hat, glove, etc and was always a super nice player plus my MVP. Dale Murphy is a great example of what a BRAVES player should be. Now I enjoy him calling games..hope he does more. Go Braves.”

Well said. Dale is my favorite Brave of all time. When I was playing rec baseball as a kid he personalized a ball for me that said, “Dear Bravothusiast, good luck in baseball this season! -Dale” I always looked up to him. I don’t know if he was elite for long enough that he should be in the HOF, I think you can make a valid case for or against. But he will always hold a special place in the heart of Braves fans, that’s for sure.

oasisbraves

January 10th, 2013
2:25 pm

Then maybe they should change the rules and forgo the speeches. Just put the Plaques in the museum. Like Jayson Stark said: “Maybe it needs to be a place that does what other great history museums do — tell the story of a time in history, for better and for worse, wherever it leads”.

cornjolio

January 10th, 2013
2:28 pm

“Mantle also injected steroids and amphetamines, you know, PEDs. There’s lots of cheaters in the HOF, it’s been part of the sport since the beginning.” -Bravothusiast

Bravothusiast, unless PEDs were found in Budweiser or Jack Daniel’s, you are way off base regarding Mickey Mantle. Don’t try to smear the God-given talent of Mantle, Aaron and other Hall of Famers who deserve to be there.

If Bud Selig had a pair he would place an asterisk by any “record” set by Bonds, Clemons, Sosa, McGwire et al, and rightfully restore the records EARNED by the likes of Henry Aaron and Roger Maris.

oasisbraves

January 10th, 2013
2:31 pm

@cornjolio but he cant do that (Selig) because he didn’t do anything to stop it until it was so out of control that outside forces took notice and threatened to step in. If Bud Selig only had a pair indeed. He’s just as guilty yet acts like he’s OUTSIDE of it all.

cornjolio

January 10th, 2013
2:31 pm

Roger Maris also won 2 MVPs. He broke the HR record and won a gold glove. Did not make hall of fame.”

“Take away three dominant years from 1960 to 1962, you have a pretty ordinary player.

At least you can make a case for Murphy and Mattingley who did have a substantial period of time when they were dominant. ” – Disgusted

Disgusted, take away 1982-1987 and Dale Murphy’s career is very ordinary. He was stellar for 5 of those 6 seasons. Look at his career before 1982 and after 1987. There is a huge drop off in offensive production. Not exactly Hall worthy. I know its painful for fellow Braves’ fans to accept, but the truth hurts.

Bravothusiast

January 10th, 2013
2:32 pm

“Why? The writers didn’t use the PEDs. Just because they did nothing about it, doesn’t mean they have an obligation to put those who made the choice to cheat in the HOF. That supposition is absurd to me.”

But doesn’t turning a blind eye and doing nothing about it not reflect upon their judgement and morals? I think it absolutely does whereas I guess you don’t? I suppose that is the disconnect. I never said they have an obligation to put them in just because they didn’t do anything about it at the time. I was saying that if YOU think the hall should be a reflection of their times and the judgement and morals of the writers who voted them in during those times, then they should be in. But if you don’t think doing nothing about it at the time doesn’t reflect upon their judgement and morals at the time, then you got me there.

cornjolio

January 10th, 2013
2:34 pm

“Murphy will always be a HOF’er in my baseball heart. Some of my greatest days was at The Ted watching Murphy. ” – jbill

jbill, Dale Murphy never play at The Ted. Turner Field opened in 1997, after Murph retired. You have altered memories.

Bravothusiast

January 10th, 2013
2:40 pm

“Bravothusiast, unless PEDs were found in Budweiser or Jack Daniel’s, you are way off base regarding Mickey Mantle. Don’t try to smear the God-given talent of Mantle, Aaron and other Hall of Famers who deserve to be there.”

Haha, where did Hank come into this? Never said a bad thing about him. Looks like you need to do a little more research on Mick, though.

HoraceProctor

January 10th, 2013
2:45 pm

Dale Murphy made his mistake by staying in the national league. I am sure that with the way Murph took good care of his body, he could have played for at least 5 more years, and most of those years prior to his retirement should have been in an american leaguesmall ballpark as a DH. Both Murph AND Fred McGriff both made the mistake of retiring before doing enough COSMETIC WORK TO YOUR HALL OF FAME NUMBERS. In the case of mcgriff, mcgriff was infinitely stupid to retire only SEVEN home runs away from immortality. Murph on the other hand needed 102 home runs to make it in the hall. If murph has been a DH for 5 years after he left philadelphia, murph would have reached at least 500 home runs and would have been elected to baseballs hall of fame. McGriff got caught during the steriod years and thats why he was shunned from entry into the hall, but you can say the same thing for Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio, Mike Piazza and Jack Morris, ALL OF WHOM SHOULD HAVE BEEN ENSHRINED YESTERDAY. I am glad that Alex Rodriguez, Curt Shilling, Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Mark Mcguire, Rafael Palmero, Randy Johnson and all of our contemporary baseball greats wont be enshrined because they either were caught doing steriods, were implicated in PED drugs, openly admitted to using PEDs or were under suspicion of using the PEDs. There may only be one more HOF enshrinee who played during the steriod years but was never under suspicion of PEDs. The next hall of famer will certainly be Ken Griffey, Jr. who deserves to be in the hall of fame and who never cheated the game out of one second of excitement. Ken was named to the all century team, at a young age, which was unprecedented for someone who was still playing baseball. If Griffey, Jr. had stayed injury free throughout his career, Ken would have finished with over 1000 home runs and would have polished off a career as being the greatest player in the history of the game.

Brava

January 10th, 2013
2:48 pm

I was saying that if YOU think the hall should be a reflection of their times and the judgement and morals of the writers who voted them in during those times, then they should be in.

Well, unlike you, apparently, I don’t care to dictate what the judgement or morals of today’s voters should be. I think they got it right yesterday.

LaFayetteLever

January 10th, 2013
2:58 pm

Roger Maris won 2 MVP awards, but aside from his 61 home runs in his record breaking season, Roger was just an average player, similar to murphy, but somehow managed to get into the HOF. A lot of the Murphy fanatics are saying that since Murphys career is much better than roger maris, then Murph deserves to be in the HOF. Murphs numbers are better than at least four HOFers: Barry Larkin, Ryne Sandberg, Andre Dawson (the Hawk), and Roger Maris. If those 4 guys are in, then dale murphy certain deserves consideration. If you are going to shut murphy out, then i think you should take those 4 guys out of the HOF and put in Pete Rose, Sammy Sosa, Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds in their places. Then you would have a rockin HOF that has only the best-qualified guys in it.

Bravothusiast

January 10th, 2013
2:59 pm

Brava, so turning a blind eye to player drug use doesn’t reflect upon their judgement and morals? Because to me it’s pretty transparent that they judged it to be ok.

cornjolio

January 10th, 2013
3:00 pm

“Dale Murphy made his mistake by staying in the national league. I am sure that with the way Murph took good care of his body, he could have played for at least 5 more years, and most of those years prior to his retirement should have been in an american leaguesmall ballpark as a DH ” – HoraceProctor

Horace, Murph’s knees were both shot when he retired. He ended his career in a Rockies uniforms in hopes he could hit a few easy HRS in homer-friendly Denver. It didn’t happen.

cornjolio

January 10th, 2013
3:08 pm

“Roger Maris won 2 MVP awards, but aside from his 61 home runs in his record breaking season, Roger was just an average player, similar to murphy, but somehow managed to get into the HOF.” – LafayetteLever

LafayetteLever, Roger Maris IS NOT in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Check your facts.

Sandberg (2B) & Larkin (SS) were infielders, in non traditional power hitting positions. Can’t compare their stats to an outfielder like Murphy.

You’d better compare Murph’s stats with Andre Dawson’s. Not close at all. Check your facts.

HoraceProctor

January 10th, 2013
3:12 pm

Murph thought he could hit a ton of home runs in the mile-high city of Denver, with the altitude and the thin air. The Rockies at the time at Vinny Castilla and Andres Gallaraga, both of whom will be enshrined in the HOF in the upcoming years. The problem though was because murphs needs were both shot, he couldnt even play first base without his knees buckling on him on occasion. Yeah, as I said, Murph could have come in 4-5 times a game as a DH and knocked in 20 home runs each year for five consecutive years. Murph would have finished with 498 home runs, then he would have to decide if he would stay the 6th year and club two more and finish with an even 500, or risk not getting in the HOF and settling on 498 home runs, a number probably close enough for enshrinement. Only murphy knows why he quit and gave up, threw in the towel and decided it time was up. Now murph shouldnt be upset in the voting or just being content on being on the ballot for 15 years because that means nothing. Murph let his fans down by quitting on his legacy and if he had to do it over again, I guarantee you Murph would choose the path that I described.

Brava

January 10th, 2013
3:19 pm

Brava, so turning a blind eye to player drug use doesn’t reflect upon their judgement and morals? Because to me it’s pretty transparent that they judged it to be ok.

Does it reflect on their judgment and morals? Why, yes, it certainly does if they covered baseball back then and never spoke out. Does that have anything to do with their judgment or morals concerning whether known or suspected PED users should be voted into the HOF? No, again, they are separate issues.

Just because they turned a blind eye to PED use in baseball does not obligate them to vote for PED users and I have to question the rationale of anyone who thinks this way. Once again, I find this premise absurd. That’s like saying because I made an immoral decision five years ago, I’m no longer allowed to make moral decisions. Crazy town stuff.

LaFayetteLever

January 10th, 2013
3:21 pm

Cornjolio said: You’d better compare Murph’s stats with Andre Dawson’s. Not close at all. Check your facts. I mentioned Andre Dawson because Murphys states ARE SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER THAN THE HAWKS NUMBERS. Andre had more home runs than Murph, but Murph had more MVPs than Dawson, 2 to dawsons 1, plus when murph had those 6 years when he dominated the national league (all of baseball for that matter), murph was so good that he beat out the likes of Mike Schmidt (Philadelphia), and some of baseballs all-time greats (murph outperformed all of them for 6 years straight). That feat alone, in and of itself, should have catapulted Murph into baseballs hallowed walls of the Hall of Fame, but murph was denied becuase it was estimated by the writers and the idiots that elect people that Andre Dawson, Ryne Sandburg, Barry Larkin and Roger Maris were better than Murph and I guarantee you that Murph is better than all four of those bums.

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