Bourn back to Braves? Rumor mill gets a spin
After GM Frank Wren said during a satellite-radio interview Sunday that the Braves had not closed the door on the possibility of Michael Bourn returning to the team, reaction on Twitter and the blogosphere went about as you’d expect in this age of 2 + 2 = 10.
Bourn (above) is a former Gold Glove winner, but the Braves say B.J. Upton is also one of the best center fielders in the game, despite metric stats that suggest otherwise..
Within an hour, Wren’s rather innocuous and not exactly earth-shattering response to the Bourn question was twisted, re-tweeted and exaggerated enough times to turn it into a juicy rumor in which some characterized the situation as the Braves in talks to bring back Bourn at a discounted rate now that his market had failed to materialize.
Some fans even got indignant about the possibility that the Braves might opt to move Bourn, a former Gold Glove winner, to left field in order to accommodate offseason free-agent signee B.J. Upton in center.
Twitter has created many profound changes in sports and the way they are reported and discussed. Inspiring rational, measured reactions is not one of those changes.
Those who know Wren’s modus operandi – or that of almost every other sports executive – should probably realize they rarely speak in absolutes with the media, usually for good reason. Wren didn’t expect Jim Bowden, the ex-GM-turned-sports-talk host, to ask about Bourn. When Bowden did, Wren responded by basically saying that, hey, the Braves always liked Bourn and what he did for the team, and had hoped at one time to have him back, but decided B.J. Upton was a better fit.
(That’s because of age and type of players they are — the older Bourn’s greatest skill is speed, often the first skill to erode. But that’s another story.)
Rather than say flatly that the Braves turned the page on Bourn and wouldn’t bring him back under any circumstances, Wren said they hadn’t shut the door on the possibility. Because in the (very) unlikely event that not one team makes Bourn a decent offer and then Bourn and agent Scott Boras circle back to the Braves ready to take a deal far, far below what Boras had once sought for the center fielder, then, well, why wouldn’t the Braves be interested?
But the operative words in that sentenced are “in the unlikely event” and “far below.”
That’s the kind of nuance — or in this case, unspoken detail — that doesn’t get included in the initial flurry of tweets after someone says something that is relayed, spun, and sometimes exaggerated or misrepresented.
Anyway, here’s the deal: Nothing has changed with the Braves and Bourn. At least as of Tuesday late morning, Wren hadn’t spoken with Boras about Bourn in weeks, since they declined the Braves’ $13.3 million qualifying offer (everyone knew they would decline that offer, since Boras was reportedly seeking a contract of at least six or seven years and well above $15 million annually).
The Braves subsequently signed Upton to a five-year, $75.25 million contract.
“They asked me if Michael Bourn fell in our lap, would we be interested,” Wren said of the radio interview Sunday. “I said yes, we’ve never closed the door on that. That wasn’t where I went in the interview…. Bowden said if his market collapsed or has already collapsed.
“And then he said who would you like in center field [in the unlikely event the Braves ended up with Upton and Bourn] and I said from our perspective it’s always been a toss-up.”
Wren repeated what he’d said to a few of us during the Winter Meetings a month ago: Defensive metric statistics, in the Braves’ view, were still a work in progress and not as reliable or pertinent as offensive metrics. Despite Bourn ranking significantly better in most defensive metrics, Braves officials and scouts also consider Upton one of the best defensive center fielders in baseball.
Wren (left) and the Braves didn't wait around to negotiate with free agent Bourn, instead signing Upton to a five-year, $75.2 million contract a few days before the Winter Meetings.
When I asked Wren at the Winter Meetings whether Upton had been told during the free-agent recruiting process that he’d be the Braves’ center fielder, Wren said it was never a question which position he’d play if he signed with the Braves. Center field.
(Here’s what Upton told me at the press conference when I asked if playing center was an important consideration: “Yes, for right now that’s where I want to be,” he said. “If down the road I have to move to a corner, I’m able to do that. But for right now, I’m a center fielder. I have been for the last five or six years, and I’ve been doing on some artificial turf. Now I get to do it on some grass, and that might help me out a little bit. I’m looking forward to it, and don’t plan on moving out of center field anytime soon.”)
To make a long story short, the Braves haven’t been talking to Boras about Bourn, nor does it sound as if they have any intention to. And in the highly unlikely event that Bourn returned to the Braves this year, from what I’ve heard the Braves would not move Upton from center field.
• The other Upton: It wouldn’t be a Braves blog this offseason without a mention of Justin Upton, right? And sure enough, the Diamondbacks once again made it known this past week that they would trade Upton in the right deal. (If you’re J.Upton, at what point do you just call GM Kevin Towers and say, dude, what is your problem?)
Anyway, once again the Braves are one of the teams most-mentioned in Upton trade rumors, along with the Rangers, Mariners and, new this week, the Orioles (said to have had talked with Arizona before determining the price tag for Upton was too high). But Wren said he’s not been in contact with Towers since before Christmas.
The Mariners want him and might be ready and willing to meet Towers’ asking price, which no one has been able to glean specifically, other than multiple young impact players or prospects. Problem for the M’s is, Seattle is one of the four teams on Upton’s no-trade list, and he’d have to approve it for the deal to happen.
Towers is asking for big-time talent in return. The Braves quickly made it clear they wouldn’t trade shortstop Andrelton Simmons, the player Towers sought from Atlanta earlier this offseason. That pretty much ended the discussion then.
Towers reportedly has asked San Diego for third baseman Chase Headley, the league’s top power hitter in the second half of 2012. I can’t see that happening. Headley only made $3.475 million in 2012 and still has two arbitration seasons left before he’s eligible for free agency. Upton is owed $38.5 million over the next three seasons.
To me, Texas seems the most likely landing spot for Upton, unless he agrees to be traded to Seattle, perhaps in exchange for a contract extension or perhaps some sort of opt-out in his current deal after another year or two.
Justin Upton, who's been dangled as trade bait repeatedly by Arizona GM Kevin Towers, would love the chance to play with brother B.J. Upton of the Braves. The two Uptons both say it's a dream of theirs to be teammates someday.
Could he be dealt to the Braves? Yes, it’s possible. But Towers would have to show he’s serious and call the Braves with a reasonable proposal, rather than continue all the hemming and hawing. Since J.Upton’s salary is $9.75 million in 2013 (it jumps to more than $14 million each of the last two years of the deal in ’14 and ’15), the Braves could probably squeeze him into next year’s payroll, especially if they traded a couple million bucks from the current roster.
As things stand today, it’s believed they have at least $8 million left to spend for a left fielder. But the Braves seem to be serious and not just posturing when they say they would be comfortable going to spring training with their current roster, giving guys like Evan Gattis, Jose Constanza (and perhaps Jordan Schafer?) a shot at left-field playing time along with veteran fourth-outfielder/pinch-hitter Reed Johnson. Or Martin Prado could move back and forth between third base and left field in such a scenario, platooning in left with Johnson and at third base with Juan Francisco, coming off an encouraging winter-ball season.
If they do that, and some combination of those players, the Braves could pocket their remaining funds until the season, then make a significant trade or two as necessary during the season. Or they could make such a move during spring training if it looks like things won’t work out with what they have.
• Arbitration swap-date approaching: Having that $8 million or so left to spend could also permit the Braves to sign an arbitration-eligible player or two to a multi-year contract extension this month. Jason Heyward is a first-time arbitration player and could command a six-fold raise to about $3.5 million, and Kris Medlen is also a first-time arb guy expected to get at least $2 million.
Those two are candidates to have arb years (and possible a free-agent year or two) bought out in a long-term extension, but the player most of us thought was most likely to be approached with such a proposal was Prado, since he’ll be eligible for free agency after this season. He would likely command an arbitration raise from last year $4.75 million to about $7.7 million for 2013.
I thought the Braves would do all they could to lock him up to, say, a three-year deal. And maybe they will. Wren said at the Winter Meetings that if any arb players would be offered multi-year extensions it would likely happen in January.
I heard last week that the Braves had had contract discussions with Prado since the Winter Meetings, but hadn’t been able to work out a deal yet. From what I could gather, they had not approached any other player yet about an extension.
It’ll be interesting to see if anything happens with him or any of the others before Jan. 18, the day that teams swap salary-arb figures with their unsigned arb-eligible players.
The sides can continue to negotiate deals – one-year or multi-year deals – after that date, right up to their scheduled arb hearings in February.
All major league teams will receive approximately $25 million more from the new national TV deal beginning next season, which should theoretically give teams more incentive to sign players to extensions now, at least those players who could become free agents after the season. Because rest assured salaries are only going to rise with the infusion of more TV money to every team, just as free-agent salaries already jumped this winter due in part to huge local-TV deals that a few teams either finalized or will soon.
I’m just thinking aloud here, but maybe the Braves could sign Prado to a deal that includes a salary for 2013 roughly the same as what they’d pay in arb anyway (about $7.7 million through arbitration) then salaries of $10 million or so in the next 2-3 years. Or use a few million bucks of the $8 million or more they have left in their payroll this winter and give Prado something like $9 million-$10 million for each of the next three seasons.
Otherwise, it sure seems risky to sign Prado for just one year and then have him have the type of season he’s had in two of the past three years, in which case he might command a larger free-agent deal on the open market next winter.
• Bill James projections: The 2013 Bill James Handbook arrived in my mailbox last week (with Chipper Jones on the cover, tipping his cap to crowd). The first thing I do is flip to the back and go through the player projections for 2013, even though the projections often end up way off the mark. It’s still fun to look and see what James and his staff think will happen.
Here are the Handbook’s projections for key Braves hitters:
Heyward: .272/.360/.483 w/ 32 doubles, 5 triples, 26 HR, 92 R, 82 RBI, 20 SB
Simmons: 289/.351/.416 w/ 26 doub, 10 HR, 18 SB.
Bill James Handbook projects a .282 average with 25 homers and 95 RBIs from Freeman in his third season.
Prado: .291/.347/.425 w/ 38 doub, 11 HR, 63 RBI.
Freeman: .282/.358/.481 w/ 36 doub, 25 HR, 95 RBI
Upton: 248/.329/..436 w/34 doub, 23 HR, 75 RBI, 35 SB, 167 K
McCann: .266/.347/.467 w/ 29 doub, 23 HR, 94 RBI (134 games)
Uggla: .238/.341/.439 w/ 28 HR, 87 RBI, 174 K.
And for Braves pitchers:
Medlen: 14-7 with 2.94 ERA, 173 K, 36 BB in 190 innings
Kimbrel: 39 saves, 1.38 ERA, 109 K, 22 BB in 65 innings
Minor: 11-10, 3.76 ERA, 177 K, 61 BB in 189 innings
Hudson: 12-9, 3.36 ERA, 120 K, 54 BB, 193 innings
Maholm: 10-12, 4.00 ERA, 126 K, 58 BB, 198 innings
Teheran: 7-9, 4.43 ERA, 119 K, 55 BB, 149 innings (25 starts)
Delgado: 7-9, 4.20 ERA, 122 K, 63 BB, 137 innings (25 starts)
Beachy: 5-3, 3.09 ERA, 76 K, 23 BB, 70 innings (12 starts)
• Hall of Fame voting: The 2013 class for the Baseball Hall of Fame will be announced Wednesday afternoon. That is, if there is a class.
Some believe this could be the first time since 1996 that no player is elected by writers for induction into the HOF at Cooperstown. This is the first year that Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, arguably the greatest hitter and pitcher of my lifetime, have been eligible for the Hall of Fame. Many writers have refused to vote for them, first-time-eligible Sammy Sosa, and others connected to use of steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs.
It’ll be interesting to see how many votes those guys get, but plenty of Braves fans are even more interested to see how many votes Dale Murphy gets in his 15th and final year on the ballot. The two-time former MVP and franchise icon has been named on less than 15 percent of ballots for the past 11 years in a row, which is ludicrous, as I wrote last month. Murphy’s stats are borderline HOF-worthy, but so were Jim Rice’s and plenty of other players now in the Hall of Fame.
This is the 15th and final year for Dale Murphy on the Baseball Hall of Fame ballot.
I have no doubt that if Murphy had the same career playing for the Yankees or Red Sox, he’d have been named on at least 40-50 percent of the ballots by now. Hey, Roger Maris was. Look up their stats and compare.
The point I made in this blog last month in this blog was that if writers were going to use rule No. 5 on the HOF ballot, the rule that pertains to sportsmanship, character and integrity, as a reason to keep out the likes of Bonds and Clemens, then the flipside of that is that Murphy should get credit for having character and integrity beyond reproach, both on and off the field during his playing career and since.
In recent weeks, it’s become apparent that plenty of other writers view Murphy’s case similarly. From conversations I’ve had with some writers and ballots that others have revealed, it seems to me that Murphy’s vote total could at least double or triple this year.
He’s not going to get the 75 percent needed to be elected to the Hall of Fame, but if he gets a big boost in his vote total it should help his case with the Veterans Committee that could select him to the HOF at some point in the not-too-distant future.
While plenty of writers have tussled with how to vote, and who if anyone from the steroid era that they should eliminate from consideration, The Denver Post’s Troy Renck wrote Sunday:
“Bob Brookover of The Philadelphia Inquirer took a different path. With 37 candidates available on this year’s ballot and writers permitted to vote for as many as 10, he checked a single box for former Braves star Dale Murphy.
“Murphy has gained support this winter with writers citing rule No. 5 on the ballot, which states ‘voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.’
“Brookover believes the rule should be removed, eliminating some of the confusion regarding the players of baseball’s steroid era.
“’It’s kind of a symbolic vote. I am willing to admit that. I will probably never vote this way again. I even toyed with the idea of bowing out,’ Brookover said. ‘I have no way of differentiating who did and who didn’t. If integrity and sportsmanship are on the ballot, Murphy’s the one guy I would bet my life didn’t (use PEDs).’”
Veteran writer Scott Miller of CBSSports.com revealed that he cast two of six HOF votes to former Braves Fred McGriff and Murph:
“Wrestling with the Steroid Era throughout the month of December while researching my ballot, I did something I rarely do: I voted for two players I had not supported in previous ballots,” Miller wrote. “McGriff is one. He was a near-miss for me in the past, but the more I try to put the juicers into context, the more I see that maybe we’re overlooking the careers of some players who were wrongly diminished. With 493 career homers brushing up against the monster power seasons that came immediately after him, McGriff, I believe is one of these guys. As Bonds, McGwire and Sosa were crushing 50 and 60 homers a season, McGriff’s seven consecutive summers of 30 or more homers began to look fairly pedestrian (even though he ranks 26th all time). Knowing what we know now, McGriff’s career is worth a second (and third and fourth) look. He had a career .377 on-base percentage along with all of those homers, and his 4,458 total bases rank 49th on baseball’s all-time list.
“[Murphy was] the second player on this ballot that I voted for after bypassing him in the past. For me, Murphy always has been a near-miss. I just didn’t think his greatness extended long enough. But as I skipped Bonds, Clemens and others because of the ‘character, integrity and sportsmanship’ portion of the ballot, I began to think the corollary to that is that certain others should benefit from that. Murphy, known as one of the classiest players ever to play the game, clearly is deserving of a couple of extra bonus points in that regard. His back-to-back MVP awards in 1982 and 1983 and his five consecutive Gold Glove awards (’82-’86) speak to his greatness.”
The Indian-head logo: There’s been no announcement from MLB or the Braves regarding the use of the ‘60s-era Braves Indian-head logo on the team’s new batting-practice caps. The website Uni-Watch.com had illustrations of all the caps that Uni-Watch’s Paul Lukas reported would be unveiled before spring training.
A few days after his original post, he wrote that the Braves were reconsidering due to backlash from some who consider the logo offensive and/or racist. A Braves official told me that the team would have no comment unless and until the caps were unveiled by Major League Baseball.
I posted a poll about this issue last week on the blog. You can read that blog and vote here, if you haven’t already. In it, I asked readers what they thought about the logo, the same one worn on the sleeve of the uniforms the Braves first wore after moving to Atlanta in 1965.
There were five possible answers on the poll: 1. I like it and hope they bring it back; 2. It’s OK. I’m good either way, bring it back or leave it in mothballs; 3. I’m not offended by it, but just don’t like it; 4. I like it, but can understand where some might be offended; 5. I find it offensive and don’t think it should be used again.
As of 6 p.m. Tuesday, there were 3792 votes cast – only one vote permitted from each IP address – including 2394 (60 percent) for “I like it and hope they bring it back.” Another 13 percent voted “It’s OK,” while 10 percent voted that they liked it but could understand where some might be offended, and 9 percent voted that they weren’t offended by it, but just didn’t like the logo.
Eight percent – 306 people – voted that the logo was offensive and shouldn’t be used again.
I also got plenty of reaction on Twitter and in emails from people including members of a couple of Native American rights groups.
The emails included some thoughtful responses from people on all sides of the issue. Here’s one of the emails:
I am a writer and Native American historian and I feel it necessary to comment on your article in today’s AJC regarding the Braves proposed new design for their batting practice hats. First, if anyone finds an item or word offensive, I submit that civilized people would refrain from using it. If you want to know the feeling Native Americans have regarding the issue, why don’t you contact their media editors and tribal leaders. Perhaps a note to Indian Country Today Media Network, or Cherokee Principal Chief Bill John Baker could provide some enlightenment for you on the topic.
What really surprises me though, is that the Braves would even consider doing something that is clearly considered hateful, offensive and yes, even racist to any group of people, regardless of the size of the group. Teams don’t choose logos and nicknames offensive to African Americans, Hispanic Americans, Japanese Americans because they realize it is offensive, politically incorrect, and distasteful. Why is so hard for them to show the same respect for Native Americans?
Incidentally, I think if you actually researched it, you would find that the Notre Dame logo is offensive to many of Irish descent. The bottom line however, is that as humans, we should be respectful of others. If in doubt, don’t do it. Plain and simple.
Respectfully,
Walter Knapp
I appreciate all the responses, folks. And if you haven’t voted, please take a moment to go back and do so. Thanks.
• Braves in the WBC: The Braves could do without at least a few of their top players for a week or more during spring training, because some of them are candidates to play in the World Baseball Classic during March.
Rosters have yet to be finalized, but here were the Braves’ potential participants Wren named, and the country they would likely play for: Craig Kimbrel, Kris Medlen (USA); Juan Francisco, Jose Constanza (Dominican Republic); Martin Prado, Luis Avilan (Venezuela); Freddie Freeman (Canada), Andrelton Simmons (Netherlands), and Edward Salcedo (Spain).
Wait, Freeman for Canada? (Some of you just had that reaction, didn’t you?) Yes, Canada. His parents came from Canada.
Avilan told Venezuelan reporters that he planned to skip the WBC after pitching a full season of winter ball.
Avilan told Venezuelan reporters last week that he decided to skip the WBC tournament, saying that he needed to make the decision with his head and not his heart. A wise decision in my view, since the left-handed reliever has pitched all winter in Venezuela and is coming off an exceptional rookie season that puts him in position to be a key contributor in a loaded Braves ‘pen.
Better to get the rest that try to crank it back up to game conditions again in March after doing that during the Venezuelan winter ball season.
When I asked Wren whether it would be a concern if Kimbrel and Medlen pitch in the WBC, he said it’s always a concern, but that with the pitch limit and innings limit that Team USA will utilize, it shouldn’t be an issue and wasn’t enough of a concern that he would ask them not to pitch.
• Top Dozen Movies: After a flurry of movie-going in the last couple of weeks, here’s my list of top movies of 2012. I still haven’t seen some other highly regarded ones that I will get to soon, including Zero Dark Thirty (it starts here this week), Searching for Sugar Man, Compliance, Holy Motors, Safety Not Guaranteed, The Dark Knight Rises and Les Miserables. If I need to amend my list later, I will.
1. Lincoln; 2. Django Unchained; 3. Silver Linings Playbook; 4. Argo, 5. The Perks of Being a Wallflower; 6. Skyfall; 7. End of Watch; 8. Looper; 9. The Sessions; 10. Beasts of the Southern Wild; 11. The Avengers; 12. Bernie
Honorable mention: The Cabin in the Woods; The Master; This Is 40, Carnage, Moonrise Kingdom, Killing Them Softly, Rampart, Killer Joe.
• Let’s close with a tune from Elvis, whose birthday was Tuesday. Check out The King by clicking here.
“CRAWFISH” (by B. Weisman, F. Wise)
Crawfish
Well I went to the bayou just last night
There was no moon but the stars were bright
Put a big long hook on a big long pole
And I pulled Mr. Crawfish out of his hole
Crawfish
See I got him, see the size
Stripped and cleaned before your eyes
Sweet meat look, fresh and ready to cook
Crawfish
Now take Mr. Crawfish in your hand
He’s gonna look good in your frying pan
If you fry him crisp or you boil him right
He’ll be sweeter than sugar when you take a bite
Crawfish…
– David O’Brien, Braves/MIB blog
1,547 comments Add your comment
Casey
January 8th, 2013
8:22 pm
DOB doing his damn thang on the rumor mill!
GT-Falcon Fan
January 8th, 2013
8:24 pm
FIRST to declare first!
DHD
January 8th, 2013
8:26 pm
So, we’re getting Bourn?
Ha!
George_George
January 8th, 2013
8:27 pm
Thank you for new blog.
Najeh Davenpoop
January 8th, 2013
8:28 pm
Am I the only one who’d be disappointed if Heyward only hit .272 this year?
njbraves
January 8th, 2013
8:31 pm
Constanza and Schafer??? Really? My god, this team really pisses me off sometimes.
Chief Knock-A-Homa
January 8th, 2013
8:34 pm
Couple of things:
1 – DOB – do you NOT want the Braves to bring Bourn back, or what?? You just seem so negative about it when it is ever brought up… I mean, we get that it’s a long shot, but how great an outfield is that if we could work it out??!! Why not write about a way that it COULD work??
2 – And with Justin Upton – same thing… Why don’t you give us your thoughts on what the Braves WOULD be willing to deal for Upton ??
Would love to hear the positive thoughts on how both of these could happen…
njbraves
January 8th, 2013
8:34 pm
How about Wren gets aggressive and calls Towers… why not make a real push to get better instead of sitting around waiting for the phone to ring?? This LF platoon will be a disaster.
richbrave
January 8th, 2013
8:34 pm
For those interested, the word on the street is a torn LCL and possible ACL re-injury with exploratory surgery scheduled for RGIII. Recovery time 8-12 months. Nothing official. Just local rumors.
ATLfan
January 8th, 2013
8:35 pm
@najeh not if he has a .360 obp
njbraves
January 8th, 2013
8:36 pm
Bourn is not coming back to Atlanta, the notion is ridiculous. You think Boras is going to tell him to take a one year deal and switch to LF?? Not happening.
richbrave
January 8th, 2013
8:36 pm
NAJAH D:
Whaz’ up NAJ? Me. I’d be disappointed with those numbers. How’s things with FERRY? What’s he exercised about?
richbrave
January 8th, 2013
8:46 pm
For what it’s worth:
I see the FALCONS flying high barring an injured QB of course. If RGIII hadn’t re-injured himself in the first quarter, I believe REDSKINS would have scored touchdowns at least twice more and won.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 8th, 2013
8:47 pm
Seems like the blog is coming around on the view that this next seasons Braves team is gonna be pretty terrible.- Nick
Nope
The “ifs” are the key. If Uggla has a good-to-great year, McCann stays healthy and Upton reaches his “true potencial”, this team could actually win the division. It might be a long shot, but I’m sure WAS won’t repeat their run from last year, they will have a couple of bumps on the road this time around.
They lost Ramos, had 5 less starts from Strasburg than normal, didn’t have Harper all year, added Haren over Jackson… that team is good. Very good chance to repeat in my opinion, and they had some bumps last season. Believe they lost 3 catchers in under 2 weeks.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 8th, 2013
8:49 pm
thanks rich…. I believe the same
Heyward has a .329 OBP the last 2 years….. hard to see it going back up to .360! But if he hit .272/.340/.500, I’d be okay… would prefer the avg. to be higher, but slugging is what I’d like to see go up.
Gulf Coast
January 8th, 2013
8:52 pm
Thanks for remembering the King today, it’s a shame,but I’ve noticed that his birthday and anniversary of death bring less and less media attention as the years go by!
BTW, Mr. Knapp, I am offended that you are offended! Bring on the caps!
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 8th, 2013
8:52 pm
Wren repeated what he’d said to a few of us during the Winter Meetings a month ago: Defensive metric statistics, in the Braves’ view, were still a work in progress and not as reliable or pertinent as offensive metrics. Despite Bourn ranking significantly better in most defensive metrics, Braves officials and scouts also consider Upton one of the best defensive center fielders in baseball
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 8th, 2013
8:54 pm
But the Braves seem to be serious and not just posturing when they say they would be comfortable going to spring training with their current roster, giving guys….(perhaps Jordan Schafer?) a shot at left-field playing time
Not Schafer. Please no. .221/.305/.301/.606 66 OPS+, .591 OPS last year.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 8th, 2013
8:57 pm
Frank did say in an interview with Shanks? that the Braves likely won’t use much, let alone all, of the 25mil coming next year….
Chop Chop
January 8th, 2013
8:57 pm
If Bourn somehow fell into our lap, then he had damned well better be in CF. He’s much better than Upton out there.
As far as that logo goes, I’ll submit that Southern whites (who comprise the vast majority of Braves fans) aren’t exactly the folks I’d go to for accurate polls on what is and isn’t offensive. We don’t tend to be too concerned about how minorities feel about anything. That’s just the way it is.
MIBravesFan
January 8th, 2013
8:57 pm
Happy birthday, Elvis! (The thought still counts)
Wes Jorga
January 8th, 2013
8:59 pm
Really enjoyed Searching for Sugarman, an amazing story.
cornjolio
January 8th, 2013
9:10 pm
Forget about Justin Upton; lets get Chase Headley for 3B !
Sam
January 8th, 2013
9:10 pm
Thank you for the Braves player projections for 2013. Is there any way you can provide the projections for some of the top prospects in the organization?
Max Sizemore
January 8th, 2013
9:12 pm
I agree with the Braves that Upton is a plus centerfielder. Living in Florida, I have watched several hundred Rays’ games in the past 3-4 seasons (a decent sample size, I think), and I believe that the current fielding metrics in use underestimate Upton. But, be warned: he’s going to take an awful lot of called third strikes.
JC Brave
January 8th, 2013
9:13 pm
If Braves’ “ifs” go as well as they can, the Braves could win the division. But of course, if “ifs” and buts were candies and nuts we’d all have a Merry Christmas.
Not Impressed
January 8th, 2013
9:14 pm
I did not want BJ Upton on the Braves, nor am I impressed by Bill James’ 2013 projections for Upton. $75 million for what?
No way McCann drives in 90+ runs.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 8th, 2013
9:19 pm
No way McCann drives in 90+ runs.
Agreed… not hitting likely at 6-7. Last drove in 90+ in 2009, when he hit cleanup, in 125 starts. Can’t see him playing 134 games either, not built for that even if he started the season on the roster… if he misses 2-3 weeks, he’d have to play almost every game to reach that.
70-80 RBI
nolie
January 8th, 2013
9:21 pm
Prado’s fielding stats were superb/stellar last year in LF, at SS, at 2B. His worst stats, well below MLB avarage, were at 3B…The Old Man
Prado in 2012 per Bill James +/-. his career numbers at third are better than at second , he is an average-ish defender where ever he plays
LF…+7
2b…+2
3b…+2
beekay
January 8th, 2013
9:24 pm
I’ve been to several games, redskins, braves, etc. where there was a group protest on the name and logo. They all were the same crowd, one or two native Americans and the rest white liberals . It looked more like msnbc groupie night then a true protest. I like the new logo and will definitely purchase a hat
knarf
January 8th, 2013
9:27 pm
no end of watch and avengers at 10? weak
Tip O' the Cap
January 8th, 2013
9:29 pm
So the Bill James handbook says the Bravos starting pitching will get a cumulative 66-59 record. That would imply that the bullpen would have to go 28-9 for a 94 win season. Is that probable? How does that compare to last year / other years?
beekay
January 8th, 2013
9:34 pm
DOB your list last year was solid. I enjoyed most on your list especially Shelter. I’ll be sure to check out those movies at Redbox when they come out. What was your reaction to Jamie Foxx speaking out about gun control after starring in a movie where people are mowed down by high powered guns by the minute?
Ron Burgundy, Anchorman
January 8th, 2013
9:36 pm
I love scotch. Scotchy, scotch, scotch. Here it goes down, down into my belly. . .
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 8th, 2013
9:37 pm
Braves bullpen went 25-14 this season, 26-25 last year, 32-19 in 2010, and 21-27 in 2009 (bullpen wasn’t great that year, obviously)
Yuuup
January 8th, 2013
9:38 pm
Don’t want a platoon between LF and 3B. Prado deserves to be a starter at one position, and one position only. If he has to start at more than one position due to injury, then fine, but not because one day there is a LH pitcher in, then the next day there is a RH pitcher in. It’s not fair to the guy at all.
You have 8 million to spend on either a 3B or LF. Stop being cheap, and for once use the f’n money that you have available and go out and get a impact player to push this team to the next level. So sick of the Braves going cheap and hoping like hell it works routine. Does the extra money saved go into Wren’s personal account or what? Seems like it,.
Braveone
January 8th, 2013
9:44 pm
From the previous blog which had 2,674 comments, TheOnlyBravesFan led the way with 244 posts. There were 301 different poster names. Here are the Top 25:
Rank Poster Frequency
1 TheOnlyBravesFan 244
2 nolie 170
3 cabravesfan 150
4 Lew 86
5 Lane Kiffin 71
6 Murph 62
7 David O’Brien 54
8 Tom O’Hawke 54
9 ncscoots 50
10 keyLargo. 49
11 DAP 47
12 TennesseePaul 44
13 RC 43
14 Ward 42
15 phil 42
16 VaBravesFan 41
17 kenhotlanta 40
18 Efrim 37
19 richbrave 37
20 Cliff Fiscal 35
21 George_George 35
22 BFChris28 34
23 Lee in S GA 34
24 Bobby H 32
25 Shaun 31
Former Atlanta Braves Jeff Francoeur shares triumph stories with students – NorthFulton.com | Betting Baseball Club
January 8th, 2013
9:45 pm
[...] by WickedCurve Betting Baseball Club – Atlanta BravesBetting Basbeball Club News – Bourn back to Braves? Rumor mill gets a spin – Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog)Bourn back to Braves? Rumor mill gets a spinAtlanta Journal [...]
Former Atlanta Braves Jeff Francoeur shares triumph stories with students – NorthFulton.com | Betting Baseball Club
January 8th, 2013
9:45 pm
[...] by WickedCurve Betting Baseball Club – Atlanta BravesBetting Basbeball Club News – Bourn back to Braves? Rumor mill gets a spin – Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog)Bourn back to Braves? Rumor mill gets a spinAtlanta Journal [...]
nolie
January 8th, 2013
9:45 pm
it is true that they are not as reliable as hitting or pitching stats, but they are good enough to figure out that if a players ranks near the bottom most years, that he is NOT one of the best fielders.
it is also pretty self-serving to quote said metrics when they show Bourn as great but ignore those same metrics that say that Upton is mediocre at best.
beekay
January 8th, 2013
9:47 pm
Yuup…who are you going to spend it on? We will most likely have to trade for someone, which means giving up some young pitching talent like Delgado.
Orange Brave f/k/a Billy Jacks BBQ
January 8th, 2013
9:47 pm
nice blog. great info
northbeach Scott
January 8th, 2013
9:47 pm
Enjoying a fine Arturo Fuente Opus X, perfection #5 at the Chop House cigar room in Grand Rapids, MI. What a luxury to enjoy such sine smoke, indoors on a cold winter night, served by lovely ladies. It is good to be alive. I also enjoyed a simple Johnny Walker Black on the rocks, Ron.
Cool to be able to enjoy the old MIB blog, to savor the time. Back to Charlotte, tomorrow and the real world.
David O'Brien
January 8th, 2013
10:15 pm
What was your reaction to Jamie Foxx speaking out about gun control after starring in a movie where people are mowed down by high powered guns by the minute? — beekay
A. Glad he did; B. It’s a movie, set before the Civil War; C. Nobody in the movie uses high-capacity magazines or automatic weapons.
David O'Brien
January 8th, 2013
10:15 pm
no end of watch and avengers at 10? weak — knarf
D’oh — thanks for reminding me about End of Watch. Completely forgot it. Definitely in my top 5. Will go back into list now.
keyLargo.
January 8th, 2013
10:17 pm
exploratory surgery scheduled for RGIII. Recovery time 8-12 months. Nothing official. Just local rumors.
RichBrave – I’m wondering why it takes 8-12 months to recover from exploratory surgery? They must be making an incision in his abdomen to insert the scope?
oh'man
January 8th, 2013
10:18 pm
David O’Brien — What did you mean by this quote “went about as you’d expect in this age of 2 + 2 = 10.”? It is funny!
David O'Brien
January 8th, 2013
10:22 pm
Glad that knarf reminded me about End of Watch. Not only had I forgotten that one, but also Bernie, which was hilarious. Went back in an updated my movie list.
Lane Kiffin
January 8th, 2013
10:22 pm
Thanks for the new blog chief
nolie
January 8th, 2013
10:28 pm
there’s that “automatic weapons” emotional blackmail word again, they are not automatic.
and Columbine occurred during the time when large capacity magazines were banned
there are no easy answers
Nowhere man
January 8th, 2013
10:28 pm
Searching for Sugarman was really good.
George Allen
January 8th, 2013
10:28 pm
REGARDING PRADO’s EXTENSION: While practicing for one of the Venezuelan League teams, Prado revealed he was seeking a four year deal, but Atlanta, so far, had only offered a three year deal.
George Allen
January 8th, 2013
10:32 pm
SAY DOB, Twitter kinda reminds me of that game where you whisper a secret into one person’s ear and by the time the message gets all the way around the classroom, it’s totally different…Almost as helpful, sometimes, as listening to the opinions of ESPN Sports Writers, or Opinions of Writers about justification for or against candidates for the Hall of Fame.
richbrave
January 8th, 2013
10:32 pm
SOUTH of the BORDER
VENEZUELA
LARA CARDINALS top of the fourth
C JOSE YEPEZ [.308 BA] 0-1
LHSP YOHAN FLANDE [1.08 ERA] 3.0 IP, 2 H, 0 R/ER, 2 BB, 2 SO.
ZULIA EAGLES
No BRAVES playing.
Stanley
January 8th, 2013
10:37 pm
Reading between the lines, it sounds like Bourn will be a Brave next year and Wren has Andrelton on the trading block.
Nowhere man
January 8th, 2013
10:38 pm
Paradise lost 3 was really good. If you do not know anything about this story check it out on http://www.wm3.org. Two new movies about the deaths of the three cub scouts and three teens who were falsely charged one by Peter Jackson called West of Memphis and another Devil’s Knot will be out later this year.
A case of Satanic panic and the three teens were deemed to be outcasts because they listened to heavy metal music and wore black clothing. If not for the help of Eddie Vedder, Henry Rollins, Johnny Depp and the film makers of the first paradise lost two of these men would surely still be in prison and the third executed.
richbrave
January 8th, 2013
10:38 pm
Based on his value to this team I’d give PRADO what he wants. Four years, and whatever amount of money that’s agreeable to both sides.
nolie
January 8th, 2013
10:40 pm
that is some of the worst between-the-lines reading I’ve ever seen Stanley
ChipperisGod
January 8th, 2013
10:51 pm
Yeah, I agree that Bourn will probably not be back here. Upton is interesting, but I really want to sign Prado, Heyward, Freeman, Medlen and Kimbrel to long term deals.
They are the pillars of the future.
If I had to do a top 10 for films:
1. Wreck It Ralph- great from a storytelling and story structure standpoint. Fantastic characters and amazing worlds. This is no kids movie to me. Feels like a great Pixar film if anything that can appeal to all ages. It’s just great filmmaking.
2. Django Unchained- A little too long, but fantastic action sequences, great characters and crisp Tarantino dialogue abound. Cinematography was great as well.
3. Les Miserables- Not a big musical fan, but some good performances and very good story are in here. While some characters are shoe horned into the final act, and there are some storytelling issues I had with it, there are some great songs and overall is a very rewarding film. Anne Hathaway’s “I dreamed a dream” scene is worth the price of admission. It is the most powerful scene I saw all year.
4. The Master- Powerful filmmaking, though somewhat repetitive after a while and a bit drawn out- there were some amazing performances, particularly by Hoffman. Unbelievable cinematography and editing.
5. Lincoln- DDL is fantastic as was Sally Field. Some forced sub plots and a particularly flawed point in history to so narrowly focus on as there was so much more to Lincoln than that hold it back from being truly great.
6. The Dark Knight Rises- Way too long and gets a bit ridiculous (hated the prison stuff, illogical and forced), but overall TDKR is a good finale to a stellar trilogy. Bane is a great villain, Hathaway was great, Bale turned in another solid performance. Technically perfect with its masterful sound, cinematography and editing. Great direction. Just a flawed script that loses control of itself in the second and third act, but still holds it together enough in those acts for it to ultimately be a success. Not as good as its predecessors.
7. Skyfall- Bond’s best since Goldeneye. Great performances, solid story, amazing cinematography. Story could have been better, the constant references to it being the 50th anniversary and Money penny were dreadful. But it was a very good James Bond film. Something we haven’t seen in quite some time.
8. Promised Land: A solid movie. Nothing special, and doesn’t try to be anything more than what it is. Tight storytelling, good performances and a good script. It doesn’t tap into emotions enough and is technically pedestrian. But a really solid little movie.
9. The Avengers- A really fun, fast paced movie that brings together a lot of fun characters. Fun pop corn action with little depth and a razor thin story. Would have liked to see a better antagonist, and the aliens were dull and uninteresting. Still it was a really fun popcorn movie, but I feel like it could have been more. Feel like it should have been on TV, technically not as filmic as TDKR.
10. The Hobbit- Really disappointing to me. Only on here because I didn’t see that many movies. Huge LOTR fan. No real character development here, the main character isn’t focused in on enough, pointless LOTR connections are made, the dwarves are all background characters and I just don’t care as much as I should. Repetitive action scenes abound as well.
It’s still very well made and is to a degree engaging. And the Gollum scene was amazing. Just not enough character development and stretching these movies out into three films feels very forced.
Didn’t see Argo, Silver Linings Playbook, Moonrise Kingdom, Looper, Wallflower and a few others I should have seen.
Stanley
January 8th, 2013
10:52 pm
Yep, Frank Wren is a sly guy. He probably set this up with the D.J. so he could signal something is afoot. Bourn will be back. Bank on it.
Steve McP
January 8th, 2013
11:04 pm
I wonder if Jurrjens considered playing for Holland in the WBC – would be a good showcase for him if he is back to any sort of form.
Shaun
January 8th, 2013
11:08 pm
Flight is one of the best movies I had seen in a while.
Raffy
January 8th, 2013
11:12 pm
DOB so no seven psychopaths with tom waits??
Expand Instant Replay
January 8th, 2013
11:16 pm
Hope they get some sort of multi-year deal worked out with prado. Love the guy, our best and most consistent HITTER.
Sherman
January 8th, 2013
11:25 pm
Enter your comments here
Just say in'
January 8th, 2013
11:29 pm
Fighting Irish, the Padres, demon Deacons, cowboys, boilermakers, Yankees, texans, saints, patriots…..why are these names not considered offensive? Just think about it!
Ward
January 8th, 2013
11:35 pm
Hello everyone! If I had to choose between Schafer, and Constanza at the last, and very last idea……. I would choose Schafer, because Constanza is streaky….
ugaaccountant
January 8th, 2013
11:37 pm
You can’t skip Les Miserables as big of a music fan as you are.
Tom O'Hawke
January 8th, 2013
11:39 pm
I would choose Schafer, because Constanza is streaky…. — Ward
Right, and Schafer is consistently sucky.
What are you doing on here at this time, Ward, take the day off?
Sherman
January 8th, 2013
11:39 pm
I hope the blogger who was critical of my slight of Irish history is still reading David’s excellent blog because I want to sincerely apologize to you. I searched several times for your name but could not find it. The Indian mascot controversy is an emotional subject for me and for people I work with. In trying to make an argument like “I wonder how black people would like it if we put black sambo on the hats” or “I wonder how Notre Dame supporters would feel if the Irish had suffered in this country the way American Indians have,” I then risk insulting those people, which is the last thing I had in mind. The Irish people have a proud history and have also endured much, perhaps more in Europe than in America, but also here. I just want to see all peoples honored and respected and I don’t think the suggested new braves logo head hat would do that for American Indians
Ward
January 8th, 2013
11:39 pm
I think Wren should gove Justin Upton a call, and have Justin Upton talk to Towers. Then he should call, and get rolling…..Wren, should show some interest, and try a little harder!
Ward
January 8th, 2013
11:41 pm
Tom- Laringitus, and off from work sick, and thought to wright a few.
ugaaccountant
January 8th, 2013
11:42 pm
I’m not even remotely interested in bringing back Bourne. He tanked last year down the stretch, is aging and is still a Boras client. Boras would find a way to bleed us even on a short deal.
ugaaccountant
January 8th, 2013
11:42 pm
I’m not even remotely interested in bringing back Bourne. He tanked last year down the stretch, is aging and is still a Boras client. Boras would find a way to bleed us even on a short deal.
Ward
January 8th, 2013
11:42 pm
Just not sold on Constanza…..
ugaaccountant
January 8th, 2013
11:44 pm
Constanza’s not starting. He’s 4th in line behind Gattis, Francisco and trading for someone.
Still, one slot ahead of Schaefer for now.
Ward
January 8th, 2013
11:45 pm
Really don’t like Schafer if it came down to it, but maybe the kid will come through, just a big maybe? That’s if down to the very last, and very last idea?
Ward
January 8th, 2013
11:50 pm
Anyways, let’s hope Braves, can still g for Justin Upton? Maybe B.J. can call his brother to get Towers moving?
Tom O'Hawke
January 8th, 2013
11:54 pm
I still think the D-Backs will move an OF’er. If not Upton, then Kubel.
Towers is, obviously, trying to get as much as he can. He says he’ll stay with what he has and send Eaton down to AAA.
I say, BullShorts!
Wren is, obviously, trying to give as little as he can. He say’s he’ll be satisfied with what he has if he can’t sign anybody.
Who knows…
Maybe there REALLY is a chance for either Gattis or Francisco. Or it’s just a ploy by Wren to not look desperate and bring the price down.
richbrave
January 8th, 2013
11:54 pm
EASTERN TOROS
lead-off CF JOSE CONSTANZA [.263 BA] 1-6, 1 R.
LHRP JOSE LUGO [3.65 ERA] 0.1 IP, 1 H, 1 R/ER.
Ward
January 8th, 2013
11:58 pm
Tom – I’m O.K.with Gattis, and Francisco platoon, but Towers will have to be real here. He can’t get every thing he wan’ts, but we’ll just have to wait, and see?
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
12:00 am
VENEZUELA
LARA CARDINALS
C JOSE YEPEZ [.313 BA] 1-4, 1 SO.
LHSP YOHAN FLANDE [L 0-1, 5.40 ERA] 3.0 IP, 5 H, 4 R/ER, 3 BB, 2 SO.
FLAMBE’s nuts are toasted in the fourth as he gives up a walk, three hits, and four earned without registering one out.
Tom O'Hawke
January 9th, 2013
12:01 am
Wait & see is right, Ward. I think if something is going to happen, with Towers, it’ll be a few months down the road.
Tom O'Hawke
January 9th, 2013
12:04 am
FLAMBE’s nuts are toasted
(chuckle)
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
12:05 am
NYTOL
Bravos28
January 9th, 2013
12:29 am
DOB
I can’t believe you liked this is 40, I went and saw it and thought it was way to long without much of a point pretty much it was just about a couple growing apart and arguing the whole movie.
ray k
January 9th, 2013
12:43 am
More praise for Skyfall, huh? I had hoped for better. Although an upgrade from the miscarriage that was Quantum of Solace, Casino Royale was far better.
There was no fun to be had this time around; too much gloom. If Bond isn’t the kind of guy you’d want to have a martini with, they are doing something wrong. And putting M front and center was a mistake–she’s far more interesting in the shadows.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
12:49 am
pointless LOTR connections are made, the dwarves are all background characters and I just don’t care as much as I should. Repetitive action scenes abound as well…Chipper
what was pointless about them, did you read the books? They were all part of the books.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
12:54 am
I thought Skyfall was pretty good myself as was Django. and Lincoln
Ward
January 9th, 2013
1:29 am
As, I was thinking waitng is good for us. It brings out character if you can wait to see what Wren, will do? I would like Wren, just to get the LF solved now, so we can go into Spring Training knowing, instead of not knowing every year, because of who’s going to play where. Being a Braves fan, we have to put with Wren, and just be patient. It’s not easy, but Wren, hasn’t done tob this year, and last year!
Ward
January 9th, 2013
1:31 am
Meant to say too bad this, and I think with more patience, we will have a good solid team to go further in the Playoffs. All, have a good one! Peace my friends, and be excellent to one another, and “Go!!!!!Braves!!!!!”
Netherlands Brave
January 9th, 2013
3:22 am
It would be so neat if Murphy made it to the HOF. BTW does anyone else agree that he probably holds the Braves record for the most autographed baseballs. I actually have a total of five and I’m not a big autograph seeker. Having Bourn back would be awesome but I’m really intigued with Gattis.
No. 1 Braves Fan
January 9th, 2013
4:47 am
DOB: Nice piece of work. Always interesting info. provided in your blogs.
My opinion is that nobody except Wren knows what may or may not happen
relating to any Braves moves. Its fun to read all the comments and speculations of your readers.
TK
January 9th, 2013
5:41 am
I am a little surprised Mr. Wren has not at least talked to the DBacks since before Christmas about Upton. Go kick the tires and see if the price has gone down or how it has changed. I agree with you DOB….Justin must want this over with.
Mr Maggot
January 9th, 2013
7:13 am
“I like the new logo and will definitely purchase a hat”
Well, another white person of exquisite taste has weighed in. Really, does anybody wake in the morning and decide that, yes, I need artwork throughout my home depicting a LOL red American Indian head? Why? Because it looks so good and I would like it. Offended or not it’s a stupid idea and no middle-aged and above white person can actually claim–and mean it–that I just like it more than anything the Braves could have come up with. Weird you folks who are coming out and lining up to buy them. I’m an out of shape 55-year old white and not offended by it but can easily see how it could be offensive and how stupid it looks.
Mr Maggot
January 9th, 2013
7:13 am
“I like the new logo and will definitely purchase a hat”
Well, another white person of exquisite taste has weighed in. Really, does anybody wake in the morning and decide that, yes, I need artwork throughout my home depicting a LOL red American Indian head? Why? Because it looks so good and I would like it. Offended or not it’s a stupid idea and no middle-aged and above white person can actually claim–and mean it–that I just like it more than anything the Braves could have come up with. Weird you folks who are coming out and lining up to buy them. I’m an out of shape 55-year old white and not offended by it but can easily see how it could be offensive and how stupid it looks.
Mr Maggot
January 9th, 2013
7:23 am
“Maybe B.J. can call his brother to get Towers moving?”
You know it is possible that the brothers do not necessarily want to live together again after having roomed together for the first 18 years of their lives, right?
Trader Jack
January 9th, 2013
7:27 am
DOB,
Online rumors suggest the Braves have interest in the Nats’ Michael Morse.
With Washington being a division rival, any chance a deal could happen? With the Nats having a deep starting rotation, I don’t know what we could possibly offer them in return. Maybe a 3-way trade with another team?
Mr Maggot
January 9th, 2013
7:28 am
My reading is caught up.
Summary:
Time will tell. I’m a little surprised that Wren……..
Who knows? Nobody except Wren knows…….
Wait and see.
I think we have everything covered.
cornjolio
January 9th, 2013
7:30 am
I never heard of a Native American tribe called “the Braves”.
Get over it !
Richard Nieh
January 9th, 2013
7:52 am
I don’t mind just let Prado playing LF if Juan can really hit at the third.
His number this winter is exceptional. Power and average.
old man
January 9th, 2013
7:55 am
Mr. Maggot: Amen to you sir.
Iluvnutella
January 9th, 2013
8:08 am
Bourne, Upton 1-2 in lineup…talk about producing runs….r u kidding me?
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
8:09 am
Incidentally, I think if you actually researched it, you would find that the Notre Dame logo is offensive to many of Irish descent.
– From DOB’s post.
Huh? You have to dig awfully deep to find anyone of Irish descent who’s offended by the Fighting Irish’s mascot. A big part of my heritage is Irish and I’m not the least bit offended the leprechaun.
As I said in a previous post, using Indian monikers in sports and the military is a tribute to First Americans (not native, since any of us born on these shores are natives). Sports teams that have traditionally used Indian names and logos, I think, are suggesting bravery and fighting spirit, which hardly denigrates American Indians.
Couch Tater
January 9th, 2013
8:16 am
Twitter has created many profound changes in sports and the way they are reported and discussed. Inspiring rational, measured reactions is not one of those changes. – DOB
15 minutes of flame.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
8:18 am
Yeah, I agree that Bourn will probably not be back here. Upton is interesting, but I really want to sign Prado, Heyward, Freeman, Medlen and Kimbrel to long term deals.
Boras will still find a good deal for Bourn – somehow – and it won’t be in Atlanta. Justin Upton – whatever his value is to the Braves, Kevin Towers is one of the biggest jerks in an executive ’s job in baseball. As I recall, Towers was a bit devious in his dealings with Wren for Jake Peavy’s services. And weren’t the Peavy negotiations between Towers and Wren leaked to the media?
northbeach Scott
January 9th, 2013
8:20 am
This entire to do over the laughing Indian logo is silly. It does not offend me as I am a white guy and I grew up with that logo as a young Braves fan in the 1960’s. so while I personally do not care, I can understand why this reintroduction might be offensive to some, therefore, let’s take the smart and sensitive path and not bring it back.
I suspect this leak was a planned trial balloon by MLB and the Braves, and that the prudent course is the plausible deniability angle, of not releasing it and not acknowledging that it was a serious option.
The Truth....
January 9th, 2013
8:26 am
Gosh dang…This team has a chance to be really good….IF the front office will do their job! Make a move, get a quality player in LF!! This is why this team gets no respect! FRONT OFFICE BUMS!
Karl Marx
January 9th, 2013
8:27 am
Comrades, the Cincinnati Reds should change their name.
“Reds” is insulting to communists when the name if affiliated with an American capitalistic entity operating out of Cincinnati, Ohio, in business for the sole purpose of profitting off the fans who spend their meager wages on a rich man’s hobby.
Frank Wren
January 9th, 2013
8:32 am
“Make a move, get a quality player in LF!! ” – The Truth …
Why do you think I brought back Jordan Schafer? Fredi says he’s been tearing the hide off the ball in the simulated games we’ve had this winter @ Turner Field.
flange1
January 9th, 2013
8:32 am
I personally have no issues with the laughing/screaming Brave logo. It is the logo that I grew up with.
But if the logo offends folks, no reason to have it.
Same with the old GA flag. The old flag was the one I had all my life, it did not bother me, but it bothered other folks, so I was for the change to a new flag.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
8:35 am
This entire to do over the laughing Indian logo is silly. It does not offend me as I am a white guy and I grew up with that logo as a young Braves fan in the 1960’s. so while I personally do not care, I can understand why this reintroduction might be offensive to some, therefore, let’s take the smart and sensitive path and not bring it back.
Let’s just take the line of least resistance and scrub society clean of any and all symbols, monikers – you name it – that purportedly offends this or that group (or more likely, a very small activist segment within a group that isn’t necessarily reflective of the larger cohort).
But where does that stop, huh? Maybe the Atlanta Falcons should drop their team name, what say? After all, there are some very touchy animal rights groups in the country who might not like that Falcons or Hawks or Lions or Tigers (endangered) or Sting Rays or Eagles and on and on are being exploited by sports teams.
And, pray tell, why are the New England Patriots getting away with calling themselves “patriots?” I don’t live in New England but I consider myself a patriot. Why should a football team in one section of the nation claim to be patriots and exclude other NFL teams from using the very same name, since their are patriots in the south, Midwest, and west? Unfair, don’t you think?
northbeach Scott
January 9th, 2013
8:35 am
You arm chair GMs are funny. I hope you do not negotiate in business or in everyday life as idiotically as you advocate on the blog. If you do, then you must either be very young/inexperienced, or just plain stupid.
In this twitter/ ADHD world of demanding instant gratification in all facets of life, those of us that are a bit wiser and more patient will “take your eyes.”
Wren is shrewd in showing patience to let the market come to him an if it does not, then he has internal options. Should either fail, Wren can and will make mid-season roster changes,
old man
January 9th, 2013
8:36 am
Fielding stats are fickle, but here is my favorite:
Rtot/yr — Total Zone Total Fielding Runs Above Avg per 1,200 Inn. The number of runs above or below average the fielder was worth per 1,200 Innings (approx 135 games). This number combines the Rtz, Rdp, Rof, Rcatch numbers into a total defensive contribution. Provided by BaseballProjection.com
Here are some career numbers. I know at least one is a small sample size, but it sure confirms what we saw on the field last year:
Prado, LF, +11
Prado, SS, +8 (2012, +11)
Prado, 3B, +1
Prado, 2B, -2
Bourn, CF, +10
BJ Upton, CF, +9
Andrelton Simmons, SS, +45
Uggla, 2B, -5 (2011, -10; 2012, +8)
Heyward, RF, +14
McCann, C, -3
Juan Francisco, 3B, -9 (2012, -1)
Reed Johnson, LF, +12
I’m surprised by:
How well Reed Johnson does in LF. How relatively poor Prado is at 3B, compared to LF, or even SS. How close BJ has been to Bourn, over their careers. Not surprised by Andrelton. Numbers confirm he is a stud.
Mr Maggot
January 9th, 2013
8:37 am
“If I had to do a top 10 for films:…………….”
You forgot Loose Cannons, Arthur [Dudley Moore], Austin Powers–Goldmember, Michael, Groundhog Day
old man
January 9th, 2013
8:39 am
The consensus is that Francisco has an arm. Maybe if he has truly dropped some weight, he will have some range to get into a positive (i.e., above average) Rtot/yr number. At third last year, he was only slightly below average.
[Disclaimer: take all fielding stats with a grain of salt.]
Mr Maggot
January 9th, 2013
8:40 am
“I hope you do not negotiate in business or in everyday life as idiotically as you advocate on the blog.”
northbeach, I love them all like brothers, but thankfully for the health of professional sports in ATL…..this is just a playground for about 10 virtual GMs.
flange1
January 9th, 2013
8:41 am
In terms of the team for 2013, unless a one sided deal (for the Braves) or a real bargain comes up with a FA, I am on the side of doing nothing and see how the team looks in Spring Training.
The Braves have 3 young hitters (Gattis, Juan Francisco, and Ernesto Mejia) that could show the team brass that they can play.
Thee Braves currently have at least 6 candidates for 5 starting pitching spots, and have a fairly full rotation in AAA as well.
Bottom line is that there is currency for a trade if the folks fall on there face in Spring Training.
I know that there are not many significant trades in Spring Training or the early part of the season, but that does not mean that there are no trades…
And if the team can play well for the first half of the season, FW will have more options on improving the team at the All Star break when hopefully Beachy can start pitching again.
old man
January 9th, 2013
8:42 am
And, according to Rtot/yr stat, Prado over his career is a better LFer than Bourn is a CFer.
northbeach Scott
January 9th, 2013
8:46 am
@Jeff R, if the issue was about getting rid of an existing symbol like the tomahawks, I would be more inclined to agree with you. However, the laughing Brave has been retired for almost 25 years. Why bring it back knowing it is offensive to some.
The rebel in me wants to tell them to shove it, but the more sensitive me says, why bother to disturb a hornet’s nest when the high road is available. You want to be more careful in choosing the hill on which to die.
old man
January 9th, 2013
8:46 am
Prado looks like a third baseman. He does not look like a tall, rangy, LFer with a cannon arm. But according to the stats, looks are deceiving.
If I’m his agent, I going to tell him he is worth more as a FA with the LF stats he has versus his 3B stats. He will not be a Gold Glove at 3B. He was pretty close in LF last year.
Fleer
January 9th, 2013
8:46 am
You are such a douche.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
8:47 am
I think Wren will still obtain a left fielder. Plenty of off-season remaining. But Wren’s smart not to jump and give away the store. Plus, he could also make a move during the season, earlier rather than later, once teams have had a chance to shake out their rosters and eyeball on-field performances and assess needs.
Mr Maggot
January 9th, 2013
8:47 am
Jeff R, thanks for your eloquent expression of views. It is as relevant to the real issue as most of the others expressed here by middle-aged and above white people who have no real frame of reference from which to draw.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
8:51 am
Thanks for the work DOB. I appreciate it.
Bill James Projections:
Freeman: .282/.358/.481 (.839) w/ 36 doubles, 25 HR, 95 RBI
Heyward: .272/.360/.483 (.843) w/ 32 doubles, 26 HR, 82 RBI
What a hater. Obviously he doesn’t think much of Heyward or else he would have certainly projected him to be much better than that scrub Freeman.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
8:53 am
I find Sarah Jessica Parker’s existence offensive, can that remove itself from society?
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
8:54 am
However, the laughing Brave has been retired for almost 25 years. Why bring it back knowing it is offensive to some.
Because it doesn’t stop there. Just because the Tomahawk is in use by the Braves doesn’t mean it isn’t offensive to “some.”
And who are these “some?” Exactly who are they? And why are the “some” given so much power to determine outcomes that affect the many?
Most Americans, I believe, find nothing in the least offensive about the old screaming Indian moniker that the Braves suggested bringing back for their spring training caps.
Are we expected to cleanse sports and society of any and every symbol – whatever – that “some” find off-putting? Where does it stop?
old man
January 9th, 2013
8:54 am
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/tz_runs_total_lf_leagues.shtml
Last year, Prado led all MLB LFers in run value as a defensive LFer.
Coulda shoulda gotten the Gold Glove. So why does anyone, including Prado, want to move to a different position in 2013? Where his career stats are much worse?
It makes me think we should have been looking for a third baseman all along.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
8:55 am
Jeff R, thanks for your eloquent expression of views. It is as relevant to the real issue as most of the others expressed here by middle-aged and above white people who have no real frame of reference from which to draw.
Well, I do heartily endorse your moniker, Mr. Maggot. Fits perfectly.
Dadgum.....
January 9th, 2013
8:58 am
To be certain, you can bet the last dollar you got that Upton will be in CF. that was part of the deal to bring him here. I’ll take Upton over Bourn every day and twice on Sunday and I don’t care what the saber metric numbers are. I also see no plausible reason to even include Bourn in any conversation regarding any outfield position. The Braves offered and he declined. End of story. If Wren even remotely entertains bringing back Bourn he’s a fool. He’s not and he won’t.
Rock on…..DOB I enjoy your tops of 2012 lists. I saw Lincoln only because most of it was shot about 10 minutes from my house. Frankly, I thought it was boring as hell. Came away mad at myself for shelling out $8 when I could have waited and caught it on first run on the tube in a few months. Lewis will get nominated maybe even win it but that’s about it for me. Movie didn’t move me. Not my style.
old man
January 9th, 2013
9:03 am
Jeff R:
The answer to your question is “no.” The doctrine is called “laches.”
Laches (pron.: f. Old French, lachesse, “slackness”, “lassitude”) is an “unreasonable delay pursuing a right or claim…in a way that prejudices the [opposing] party”
The Braves have used the tomahawk for years, without interruption, without any fanbase objection that it is offensive, even though it might be. So any objection to it now is barred by the doctrine of laches.
Now, the Braves seek to bring something out of mothballs after many years of not relying on it for publicity or profit. They cannot argue they will be harmed by not using it, only that they will forego some new, not yet realized opportunity.
Laches is not a “legal” doctrine. It is an equitable doctrine. It is based on concepts of common sense, fairness, and equity.
Those who would object to the Tomohawk are barred by laches. Those who object to the crazy/drunk/screaming Injun are not.
northbeach Scott
January 9th, 2013
9:04 am
@Dadgum …I think you are right on Bourn and the draft pick we receive for his rejection of the offer, will mitigate the one the Braves lost when they signed Upton. At this point when baseball has rightly gone back to letting youth be a priority an also balancing costs.
Enjoyed Bourn, except for the back half of 2012. let Boras bid against another team.
Dadgum.....
January 9th, 2013
9:06 am
Old Man….we did look at third basemen. Finding an option better than we have is more rare than a Nick Saban smile. Prado is an upgrade over Chipper at 3rd. Mission accomplished. Wright or someone of his ilk would have been nice but that never got serious looks. Maybe 3rd is acquired if ST reveals a need but 3rd is really the least of our worries.
old man
January 9th, 2013
9:12 am
*correcting typo and adding clause*
Jeff R:
The answer to your question is “no.” The doctrine is called “laches.”
Laches (pron.: f. Old French, lachesse, “slackness”, “lassitude”) is an “unreasonable delay pursuing a right or claim…in a way that prejudices the [opposing] party”
The Braves have used the tomahawk for years, without interruption, without any fanbase objection that it is offensive, even though it might be. So any objection to it now is barred by the doctrine of laches.
Now, the Braves seek to bring something out of mothballs after many years of not relying on it for publicity or profit. They cannot argue they will be harmed by not using it, only that they will forego some new, not yet realized opportunity.
Laches is not a “legal” doctrine. It is an equitable doctrine. It is based on concepts of common sense, fairness, equity, and human experience.
Those who would object to the tomahawk are barred by laches. Those who object to the crazy/drunk/screaming “Injun” are not.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
9:24 am
Those who would object to the Tomahawk are barred by laches. Those who object to the crazy/drunk/screaming Injun are not.
old man, reasonable, but I would say respectfully that that’s not how the game is played in modern American society. “[C]ommon sense, fairness, and equity” have nothing to do with whether or not the screaming Indian should be dusted off or that the Braves’ Tomahawk has been in regular use for a long while. You’re assuming that the “some” are willing to play by the rules of “laches.”
This isn’t a game of common sense, fairness or equity for the “some.” It’s a game of advantage; attempting to gain and press advantage to the benefit of small activist cadres and their organizations – or so my experience teaches me.
There’s nothing derogatory about the screaming Indian moniker or the tomahawk that the Braves where proudly on their jerseys. And if you get into the mindset that “some” find those symbols offensive, hence, out of deference to them, cease using them, then I ask again: “Where does it stop?” Virtually any and every symbol used in sports or society at large can be construed by this or that group or activists as somehow offensive. I think fairness and common sense dictate that we stop pandering to the foolish demands of pressure groups.
old man
January 9th, 2013
9:24 am
The set of things you have a right to do is not equal to the set of things you can do with grace or good manners.
For many, the only questions are only whether the right exists and whether they want to do it. For example, drug companies want to warn about “an erection lasting for more than 4 hours,” during programming watched by small children. Should they? I suppose they have the right to.
Joey
January 9th, 2013
9:24 am
Man, can you imagine the numbers Murph could have put up if he HAD used PEDs?
Oh and good stuff all, DOB.
Lemke's Knuckler
January 9th, 2013
9:27 am
Bill James forgot his Evan Gattis projections…
.425, .524, 40 doubles, 68 homers, 174 RBI
I think that might put us over the top next year.
Patrick
January 9th, 2013
9:29 am
But the Braves seem to be serious and not just posturing when they say they would be comfortable going to spring training with their current roster, giving guys like Evan Gattis, Jose Constanza (and perhaps Jordan Schafer?) a shot at left-field playing time along with veteran fourth-outfielder/pinch-hitter Reed Johnson
This is A HUGE Gamble.
Really, for the long-term future of this team. I hope it fails and fails so badly that it costs Wren his job and maybe a couple of the other liars and penny-pinchers in the Front Office who like being cheap more than winning a championship.
old man
January 9th, 2013
9:30 am
Jeff R:
That is precisely how the “game” is played in America. Judges invoke the doctrine of laches every day in this country, and the parties in those cases have to play by the rule of “laches.”
I was just addressing your point that agreeing to drop the drunk Indian means we will have to drop the tomahawk as well. I think you said something like “where will it stop?” I don’t support those opposing the tomahawk or “Braves.” I oppose the drunk Indian. There is a sound and time-honored legal/equitable rule in our country which would support the existing logos, but would not protect new ones which are offensive.
old man
January 9th, 2013
9:32 am
And I know the Indian is not “new.” But the Braves dropped it for long enough that any fair minded person would consider the equivalent of new. The point is that the Braves are not harmed by not bringing it out of mothballs, versus having to drop an existing logo.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
9:35 am
old man, this isn’t a legal battle over the screaming Indian or tomahawk. In the broadest sense, it’s a political battle (please note “broadest”). The activists who oppose the screaming (where do you get “drunk”?) Indian could give two cents about the legalism. They – the some – seek to push for advantages ranging from recognition for achieving a change via their pressure to increased influence and power to financial compensation or reward. Big range.
old man, to your credit, you’re seeking to play by rules. The “some” aren’t.
Lemke's Knuckler
January 9th, 2013
9:36 am
I hope it fails and fails so badly that it costs Wren his job
You sound like a certain conservative radio talk show host.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
9:37 am
anyone who wants to give Schafer another chance…. lol. Maybe if he’s on the juice….
Yuuup
January 9th, 2013
9:37 am
beekay
January 8th, 2013
9:47 pm,
The trade route is pretty much the only way they can go at this point. Trade for someone then, if they were willing to give up Delgado for 3 months of Dempster, then they can certainly include him in a trade for someone like Justin Upton who is under contract for a few more years and would love to play with his brother. The Braves also had the chance to get someone like Span or Revere from the Twins and didn’t do it. So why is Delgado’s value so high now when it wasn’t jack crap at last years trade deadline? Just saying, the Braves could have a starting LF’er by now if they wanted one, as the off season goes on and there is only a few trade chips that make sense, the price on those guys is just going to go up. I know everyone has their own take on it, but if the Braves go into the season with a platoon at 3B and LF consisting of Francisco, Johnson, and Prado, they are in for a rough season imo.
Mr Maggot
January 9th, 2013
9:38 am
old man, good stuff. Thanks
Red Pants
January 9th, 2013
9:38 am
Two things here:
1. If those player stat projections are anywhere near accurate, we’re missing the playoffs. That being said, I seriously doubt many of the guys won’t outperform those numbers.
2. A solid list of movies, although I would have had Skyfall a few spots higher. Once you see The Dark Knight Rises, you’ll probably have to shuffle your top 5, great flick. Lincoln at 1 is hard to argue.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
9:41 am
Prado’s bat doesn’t fit for a LF though…. more of an infield bat.
but I really want to sign Prado, Heyward, Freeman, Medlen and Kimbrel to long term deals.
Year to year with Kimbrel
You know it is possible that the brothers do not necessarily want to live together again after having roomed together for the first 18 years of their lives, right?
Why do they have to live together? And it is no secret that they’d like to play together…
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
9:41 am
Prado’s bat doesn’t fit for a LF though…. more of an infield bat.
but I really want to sign Prado, Heyward, Freeman, Medlen and Kimbrel to long term deals.
Year to year with Kimbrel
You know it is possible that the brothers do not necessarily want to live together again after having roomed together for the first 18 years of their lives, right?
Why do they have to live together? And it is no secret that they’d like to play together…
Yuuup
January 9th, 2013
9:46 am
Northbeach Scott,
So if the internal options don’t work out he can always show patience and make a deal at the deadline huh? So you call us stupid? If it doesn’t work from the beginning of the season up to the deadline, do you really think the Braves will be contending for the division title, or WC at that point?
Will this deadline deal work out like the Teixiera deal? You know, where the Braves were so close and traded for a big impact bat just to miss the playoffs again? The year they traded for Teixiera, with the numbers he was putting, I bet if they had him from the get go, they probably would have made the playoffs. So again, how does being patient and waiting for the market to come to him benefit the team? The trade market has already come to him, and left. Now the guys being shopped with cost a lot, and then Wren will balk at the asking price and pass. Sorry, but if we are stupid as “Arm Chair GM’s”, you are just as dumb with your logic.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
9:46 am
the drunk Indian.
old man
January 9th, 2013
9:48 am
Jeff R:
A sincere thanks to you for the compliment–honest.
I agree this is not a legal battle. It’s a public opinion debate. But something like laches is a common sense rule that developed over centuries of some pretty smart people trying to resolve disputes in a fair way. So perhaps many on both sides of the current debate should look to it for inspiration and guidance. You might be surprised that many like me understand that symbols that have remained in use continuously are “water under the bridge.” Many people–including me–have fond memories invested in them, even though they may be offensive to some. But I want to draw the line on things which have not been in regular use over the years.
I do not agree with people who want to purge our culture of all these symbols, even though I know they may remain offensive to some. I remain “anti-Injun.”
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
9:49 am
I’m still buying the hat to match my tee. Sorry MAGGOTT. Frankly, the more the protest, the more I want it. Just consider me ill-bred and stupid. After all, you’re here. Birds of a feather, a what old chap?
Patrick
January 9th, 2013
9:49 am
How can it not do anything but anger Braves fans when your GM says that he is going to 1. Do everything he can to put a champsionship calibur team on the field. 2. Raise payroll “slightly” from what is was last season 3. Just “simply” replace 2 positions 3B/left field (depending on where Prado plays) and CF AND that he has the resources to do it (1. Money for once {which became available after his last awful free agent signing} 2. Top level players to trade).
How can no one here but anything but pissed off when Statement: 1, 2 and 3 ALL turn out to be lies!?!?!?
The teams payroll has gone down, the team is worse than last year-both on paper and talent-wise. And his cover-up is a weak one: Platoons with re-treds and bench players, or hoping that a career minor leaguer, or a minor leaguer with mental issues regarding fully committing himself to play baseball-issues that took so long to workout that he’s now too old to be considered a prospect….
This is what you think you can win with? This is what you think you can sell to your fan base as a serious formula for winning? It is insulting. Wren is trying to play us all for saps and like I said before, I hope that (if this is what truly happens the remainder of this offseason) this fails, blows up in his face and his is fired because of it.
I live in Chicago and the fans and the media CONSTANTLY and CONSISTENTLY called for the firing of Lovie Smith after two season of choking and-low and behold-he was let go. It was the right move, the Bears did the right thing. I think that the pressure they felt from the fans and the media did play a part in his firing.
I wish that Atlanta had that same fire, that same passion about the Braves. Because if this were Chicago and Wren was pulling this crap, it WOULD NOT fly! Period.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
9:50 am
TheOnlyBravesFan, yeah, I don’t know how old man interprets the Braves’ Indian as “drunk.”
I understood as a kid growing up in Atlanta that the Indian was screaming because he was on the warpath. The Braves were on the warpath to win games and make the World Series. Seems to make perfect sense.
I Know
January 9th, 2013
9:55 am
“The Braves have 3 young hitters (Gattis, Juan Francisco, and Ernesto Mejia) that could show the team brass that they can play.”
All unproven; minimal value at best. Minor league stats are okay but don’t suggest anything spectacular. Not exactly top prospects. Francisco played his way out of the Reds organization and Wren rescued him from the dumpster. He’s beyond the prospect level.
Lemke's Knuckler
January 9th, 2013
9:55 am
I was dropping my kid off at school today and driving to work and came to the conclusion that I no longer support freedom. The guy that bypasses the drop off line at school should have his tires confiscated. The guy that flicks his cigarette butt out the car window should be made to drink only from water cups filled with cigarette butts (since those butts get washed into a storm drain and eventually end up in the lakes and thus the drinking water supply, not to mention this guy will probably complain when his water rates go up because the utility has to replace intake filters more often). And most importantly, the ducks that completely block the business park entrance to my office should die, they should all die.
I don’t really believe all of that. Freedom is still better than the alternative. Just a little frustrated with selfish people…and ducks.
I Had To Say It
January 9th, 2013
9:58 am
Not surprised about Bill James’ assessment of Justin Heyward, whose numbers would be much better on a more balanced hitting team, like Detroit or Texas. As it is he’s surrounded by undisciplined fence swingers and strikeout kings like Upton and Uggla.
Heyward will never be a player that leads a team offensively.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
9:59 am
screaming or laughing… that’s how I always interpreted it
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
10:00 am
drug companies want to warn about…during programming watched by small children. Should they?
Drug companies are compelled by law to make those disclaimers. That was part of the bargain for allowing them to advertise on TV. If it were up to the desires of drug companies, they’d probably never include the side affects in a TV commercial. Similarly, paper manufactures never advertise about the possibility of paper cuts.
The drug commercial was a poor example. You are attempting to distinguish between the right to do something and the desire that others engage in that right in a fashion you deem “respectful”. Most every one would agree that such an outlook is shared, but that does not mean any one exercising their right must defer to the opinions of others. If so, at that point it ceases to be a right, it ceases being a privilege. You have effectively outlawed or banned the action in question.
Secondly, you must also look at how one is exercising this right. Is it an action or utterance taken in malice or hatred? Is the activity, utterance, or in this case, image, inherently “wrong.”
In this case, I tend to disagree. I do not think this image is inherently racist. I would be very interested if anyone could provide resource(s) documenting the creation, or revival, of this image was for derogatory, racist, or hateful purposes.
Murph
January 9th, 2013
10:02 am
1. Bourn
2. Prado
3. Heyward
4. Upton
5. Freeman
6. Uggla
7. McCann
8. Simmons
vs
1. Simmons
2. Prado
3. Heyward
4. Upton
5. Freeman
6. Uggla
7. McCann
8. Gattis
Personally, I prefer option b. HR power top to bottom. That’s a lineup I wouldn’t want to face if I were an opposing pitcher.
Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
10:02 am
Patrick – I wish that Atlanta had that same fire, that same passion about the Braves. Because if this were Chicago and Wren was pulling this crap, it WOULD NOT fly! Period.
And yet, when was the last time the Cubs won the World Series?
Lemke's Knuckler
January 9th, 2013
10:02 am
All unproven; minimal value at best. Minor league stats are okay but don’t suggest anything spectacular. Not exactly top prospects.
Gattis’ line over the last 2 minor league seasons…
162 games, 98 runs, 192 hits, 44 doubles, 40 homers, 138 RBI, 56 walks, 96 strikeouts, .315 avg, .387 obp, .605 slg, .990 ops
I don’t think your definition of “okay” is the same as mine.
BravePack(FreeFan)
January 9th, 2013
10:03 am
Patrick
Are you kidding me? I live in Chicago and the Bears and Cubs orginzations are a joke. The only reason they finally fired Smith is because they missed the playoffs after starting 7-1. You can thank the Packers for losing that final game against Minnesota or Lovie would still be employed because they made the playoffs. Bears haven’t won anything in almost 30 years and won’t for a while with a QB like Cutler. Cubs are the lovable losers who still fill Wrigley because it’s a outdoor bar disguised as a baseball field. You are way off base if you think Chicago sports have fire…what a joke.
Walker, Texas Ranger
January 9th, 2013
10:03 am
Dave, as a card carrying Native American, I in no way find the logo offensive. The logo depitcs a warrior and not a cartoon like Cleveland had which is offensive. In fact, the logos such as the Braves and FSU are welcomed. Now on an whole different scale is the “Redskins”. If the name of the team were the Blackskins, how long do you think that would last.
Lemke's Knuckler
January 9th, 2013
10:08 am
Now on an whole different scale is the “Redskins”. If the name of the team were the Blackskins, how long do you think that would last.
Or the Yellowskins. I have an Asian brother-in-law, so I’m allowed to say stuff like that. He told me so. Now if I could just get my wife’s other sister to marry a black guy, I can pretty much say whatever I want for the rest of my life.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
10:10 am
The Braves have 3 young hitters (Gattis, Juan Francisco, and Ernesto Mejia) that could show the team brass that they can play.
I’d say the only one out of that three that really has a chance to “prove” anything is Gattis. Francisco has been in the majors. Perhaps not as a full time player, but his abilities up at the top level are not “unknown” as they would be for Gattis and Mejia. And as for Mejia, he is the definition of an older minor leaguer one should not get too hyped up on. He’s been down there for 8 years. He went from the Braves, then Moore brought him to the Royals, and now he’s back to the Braves. He reeks of a AAAA player.
To me Gattis is the only one of interest who might amount to something. Hard to figure that guy due to his 4 year hiatus in the wilderness.
C from Marietta
January 9th, 2013
10:10 am
@ I Had To Say It
It’s JASON Heyward! LOL
Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
10:12 am
Random comment – The RGIII situation is especially interesting in the wake of the Nats’ handling of Strasburg. On one hand, Washington’s baseball team shut down their prize pitcher before the post-season even though he had no apparent physical ailments. On the other hand, their football team allowed the prize QB to play on even though it was obvious he had a knee injury exacerbated by continual play.
Tough situations in which 20/20 hindsight indicates that the teams made the wrong call on both occassions.
bill
January 9th, 2013
10:13 am
DOB I saw Beasts of the Southern Wild and I did not get it but I did not understand where the wild things grow either. Can you explain these two gems to me? I still enjoyed the ride . I am just not sure where we went.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
10:13 am
It’s a public opinion debate [about the Indian]. But something like laches is a common sense rule that developed over centuries of some pretty smart people trying to resolve disputes in a fair way.
old man, hate to say, but pretty smart people are not always guided by reason, fair play, and common sense. I’ve known more than a few people who anyone would say are smart who lack common sense.
And you’re supposing that among the activist or pressure groups, their leaders are good-willed and desirous of a fair and reasonable settlement of their differences (over the Braves’ Indian, in this instance).
I don’t see that. And this is more than public opinion. This is about some people’s opinions being translated into action to deny or make change that most disagree with. Again, these groups are playing by one rule: seek and gain advantage.
If the Braves’ Indian was depicted as drunk, as you seem to think it is, I, like most people, would strongly oppose it’s use. That would, in fact, be derogatory and clearly recognizable to most people as deprecating. But that’s not the case.
We agree to disagree.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
10:15 am
I italicized everything in my 10:13 remarks. Will wonders never cease.
Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
10:15 am
Just when does the PC crowd go too far? Is it the issue involving the Braves’ cap logo? Is it Brent Musberger’s comments? While I think conversation on any topic must be ongoing, there has to be a line somewhere.
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
10:17 am
SHANAHAN gets heat either way. Just like with STRASBURG.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
10:17 am
Tough situations in which 20/20 hindsight indicates that the teams made the wrong call on both occassions.
How do you figure that for the Nats? Especially at this juncture? As I understood it, the move was to prevent future injury and provide longevity. Have you seen the future of Strasburg? If so, how does he do against the NL East over the next few years?
Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
10:21 am
TP -Fair enough, although I believe he could have made a difference against the Cardinals in the NLDS. Do we know exactly what his risk of injury was? Are there any definitive, expert opinions outlining the risk. Making the playoffs is till not a given, although I grant you that the Nats and Strasburg future look bright.
I guess I should wait a few years before making the final 20/20 call with Strasburg.
beekay
January 9th, 2013
10:21 am
Old Man, did you give that Indian logo a breathalyzer? You portraying the Indian to be drunk might say something about your own bias.
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
10:22 am
Cliff:
There are no line Cliff. The sands of our time are shifting.
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
10:23 am
10:21 a.m.bk
Now there’s a post I can relate to…..hic!
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
10:24 am
I do not think this image (Braves’ Indian] is inherently racist. I would be very interested if anyone could provide resource(s) documenting the creation, or revival, of this image was for derogatory, racist, or hateful purposes.
No one can because the imagine isn’t such. It’s there for all to see. Now, in someone’s opinion use of any logo or moniker employing anything related to Indians could be objectionable. Everyone’s entitled to an opinion. But teams and organizations of any sort aren’t required to buckle and act on “some” opinion… or any opinion, though businesses and other organizations (say, nonprofits) are understandably concerned about public sentiment.
Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
10:24 am
Richbrave – I like that “the sands of our time are shifting.” Unless of course, someone is offended by it.
DAP
January 9th, 2013
10:24 am
TOBF No way McCann drives in 90+ runs.
Agreed… not hitting likely at 6-7. Last drove in 90+ in 2009, when he hit cleanup, in 125 starts
why not? 6-7 are good RBI spots.
Yuuup You have 8 million to spend on either a 3B or LF. Stop being cheap, and for once use the f’n money that you have available and go out and get a impact player to push this team to the next level
ok, man. impact player, plays 3B or LF, for $8mil. name that player.
Don
January 9th, 2013
10:25 am
It is a cold hard fact – you usually are not going far in post season when a significant part of what you are counting on as best part of your batting order is palyers who have huge strike ourt totals and do not hit good pitchers.
beekay
January 9th, 2013
10:25 am
Mr. Magot
The logo reminds me of my childhood poster that hung in my room. It reminds me of those awful teams I followed daily. It reminds me of Jeff Burroughs and Bob Horner and Mike Lum etc….if I choose to want to buy a hat with that logo than I will do so. I have 2 native american friends and neither is offended. The only people that I know that run their mouths about this are non-Indians like yourself
Murph
January 9th, 2013
10:27 am
Don’t we find out the HoF results today?
Frank Wren
January 9th, 2013
10:27 am
“Online rumors suggest the Braves have interest in the Nats’ Michael Morse.
With Washington being a division rival, any chance a deal could happen? With the Nats having a deep starting rotation, I don’t know what we could possibly offer them in return. Maybe a 3-way trade with another team?” – Trader Jack
Trader Jack, Michael Morse will not be coming to the Braves. He’s only 30, has power, plays the OF and other positions, and is very affordable. However, he has a .295 career average. We like guys who hit below .250 and strikeout a lot.
Homer the Brave
January 9th, 2013
10:28 am
I completely agree that if Murphy played for the Yankees or Red Sox he would probably do much better in the HOF voting. He was the most dominant power-hitting outfielder in the NL during the 1980s. But he made the mistake of playing for too many last-place Braves teams.
And I think the same can be said for Lee Smith. When Smith retired, he was the leader in career saves with 478. He since has been passed by Trevor Hoffman and Mariano Rivera but still ranks third. Smith reached that number by being exceptionally durable. His 12 straight seasons with at least 60 appearances still represent the longest streak in history by any closer. He’s also still the only reliever in history to post 13 straight seasons of at least 25 saves. And when he retired, his 10 seasons with 30 or more saves also were the most ever. (Hoffman and Rivera have both passed him in that category, too.) But Smith made the mistake of playing for the last place teams like the Cubs and Expos. It is absolutley shocking that Bruce Sutter and Goose Gossage are in the HOF despite barely having 300 saves yet Smith gets ignored. Hopefully the sports writers finally let him in this year.
beekay
January 9th, 2013
10:28 am
Yuup
I agree with you I just don’t want to spend the money, just to spend it. Hopefully we can parlay it into an everyday LF or 3B
Homer the Brave
January 9th, 2013
10:28 am
I completely agree that if Murphy played for the Yankees or Red Sox he would probably do much better in the HOF voting. He was the most dominant power-hitting outfielder in the NL during the 1980s. But he made the mistake of playing for too many last-place Braves teams.
And I think the same can be said for Lee Smith. When Smith retired, he was the leader in career saves with 478. He since has been passed by Trevor Hoffman and Mariano Rivera but still ranks third. Smith reached that number by being exceptionally durable. His 12 straight seasons with at least 60 appearances still represent the longest streak in history by any closer. He’s also still the only reliever in history to post 13 straight seasons of at least 25 saves. And when he retired, his 10 seasons with 30 or more saves also were the most ever. (Hoffman and Rivera have both passed him in that category, too.) But Smith made the mistake of playing for the last place teams like the Cubs and Expos. It is absolutley shocking that Bruce Sutter and Goose Goosage are in the HOF despite barely having 300 saves yet Smith gets ignored. Hopefully the sports writers finally let him in this year.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
10:28 am
ok, man. impact player, plays 3B or LF, for $8mil. name that player.
Giancarlo Stanton. And you still have some funds left over.
sportsmandh
January 9th, 2013
10:30 am
Dark Knight Rises very good movie. Has to be in the top 10 movies of the year.
Not as good as Dark Knight with Ledger but better than Batman Begins.
Macdaddy
January 9th, 2013
10:32 am
I don’t understand why no one is talking about this, http://instagram.com/p/Ty-MfDHJzf/. Clearly the juiciest Braves rumor of the off season.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
10:34 am
My sister-in-law is part Cherokee. The Indian stuff doesn’t bother her or her kin.
But a maggot, well, a particular maggot seems to have objections to the Braves’ Indian logo.
There’s good news for Mr. Maggot, though. According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary (online), a maggot is:
a soft-bodied legless grub that is the larva of a dipterous insect (as the housefly)
See, Mr. Maggot, one day you’ll actually become something.
DAP
January 9th, 2013
10:35 am
old man Those who would object to the Tomahawk are barred by laches. Those who object to the crazy/drunk/screaming Injun are not.
i like that explanation, but im wondering…how have i been buying apparel with the “screaming savage” on it for the past 5 years or so? i have several items (hats, shirts, ect.) that i have bought in the last 5 years that feature the screaming savage. i havent heard these complaints at all over the last 5 years.
now, the braves might put it on a batting practice cap, and folks start making noise. where were they the last 5 years? they are barred by laches.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
10:35 am
As it turned out, I sent my 2013 Hall of Fame ballot in blank. This wasn’t science. It wasn’t a clever attack in the three-front culture war among the players, the SABR s and the BBWAAs. It wasn’t a protest, either. It was just one voter’s inability to reach a comfortable verdict on a colossal mess that for years no one wanted to take responsibility for and that isn’t going to get any less complicated as time goes on.
The voters were handed a basket of rotten vegetables called the steroid era by the players, the Hall of Fame and Major League Baseball, and told to make a chef’s salad.
–Howard Bryant
I find this point of view to be childish. Bryant lists players, the hall of fame and MLB as the parties making his life as a BBWAA member hard. This pass the buck attitude sweeping across America is getting old. Bryant himself and the BBWAA are also culpable in this sordid affair. Being party to making the mess should also mean being party to cleaning up the mess. A blank ballot with his reasoning backing it, is akin to throwing a fit or a temper tantrum. Pretty childish.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
10:36 am
Trader Jack, Michael Morse will not be coming to the Braves. He’s only 30, has power, plays the OF and other positions, and is very affordable. However, he has a .295 career average. We like guys who hit below .250 and strikeout a lot.
Yes, there’s something to that, I grant. But Morse ain’t coming to the Braves because two divisional rivals aren’t apt to want to help each other meet needs.
Hugo Z Hackenbush
January 9th, 2013
10:37 am
In other exciting pc news…
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv-movies/django-unchained-action-figures-sparks-boycott-article-1.1235938
and this:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/s-mexican-restaurant-fire-racist-shirts-article-1.1236221
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
10:38 am
“…..Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
10:24 am
Richbrave – I like that “the sands of our time are shifting.” Unless of course, someone is offended by it…….”
So those who are offended are “shift-less?”
Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
10:40 am
I have to admit, I do not like the logo because it does remind me of those losing Braves’ teams in the 70s and 80s. I hope the logo does not portend a return to such futility.
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
10:41 am
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
10:36 am
Trader Jack, Michael Morse will not be coming to the Braves. He’s only 30, has power, plays the OF and other positions, and is very affordable. However, he has a .295 career average. We like guys who hit below .250 and strikeout a lot.
“…..Yes, there’s something to that, I grant. But Morse ain’t coming to the Braves because two divisional rivals aren’t apt to want to help each other meet needs……”
All true, and to your point Jeff R, agreed just as I said last night. Only way i could see it is by subterfuge, a three-way deal that’s silent on the back end.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
10:42 am
Is that a picture of Freddie Freeman and Jordan Schafer?
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
10:43 am
Cliff:
Now that’s a valid point. Let’s revert to the 70’s. Is the BRAVES org trying to convey some sort of subliminal message here?
jfp
January 9th, 2013
10:43 am
Murph, I like the second lineup a lot.
Patrick, since you seem to have such a better understanding of what Frank Wren should be doing than the rest of us, why don’t you let us know who he should get for left field and how they can fit into our budget. Maybe he should be fired because no one is available that would be an upgrade from what we have based on the information we have right now. Yeah, that makes sense.if our options don’t pan out in spring training, you can bet there will be a different sense of urgency to do something in left. But right now, it would be stupid not to want to are what happens in the spring.
David O'Brien
January 9th, 2013
10:46 am
All true, and to your point Jeff R, agreed just as I said last night. Only way i could see it is by subterfuge, a three-way deal that’s silent on the back end. — richbrave
Ha. Yes, and that’s happened … when?
raleighbravefan
January 9th, 2013
10:46 am
A few random thoughts this morning…
- There sure are a lot of people willing to decide what should (or shouldn’t) offend other people. (also, how much it matters, re offending others).
- Gattis and Francisco…for real or not… should be an interesting ST. Either COULD become a very good CHEAP solution…could, that is…
- What impact player is available at $8 mil, or for a reasonable trade? (emphasis on impact, for all you whiners) No need to even talk about what LM should do about the payroll…totally different subject.
- Some potential (and concern) for (possibility of) Justin and BJ, on the same team, creating an “us vs them” atmosphere in the clubhouse. Worth factoring into the conversation.
- Braves should be better overall, IMO. Maybe a little, possibley a lot. However, Nats almost certainly will be better…starting with a full season of Stras. Disclaimer, as always…injuries will affect all teams.
- Braves are set up to haved the best BP in baseball.
DAP
January 9th, 2013
10:46 am
10paul ok, man. impact player, plays 3B or LF, for $8mil. name that player.
Giancarlo Stanton. And you still have some funds left over.
no, you couldnt get him for $8mil. nice try!
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
10:46 am
2pm Murph
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
10:46 am
richbrave, yep, it would have to be through subterfuge.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
10:47 am
Braves are set up to haved the best BP in baseball.
Doesn’t make us better than the Nats pitching…. our rotation is about 7-8 spots behinds theirs. And their back end of the pen isn’t too bad
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
10:48 am
Jeff R:
My head is spinning just thinking about it.
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
10:49 am
TOBF:
Yeah, they dumped BURNETT. We owned him.
Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
10:50 am
richbrave – Now that’s a valid point.
I am like the blind squirrel. Every now and then, I stumble on uttering something semi-valid.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
10:51 am
why not? 6-7 are good RBI spots.
True, but not as good as the spots above…. plus he won’t be playing 130+ games, closer to 110 imo. Hasn’t reached 90 since he was a cleanup hitter, playing 130+.
Murph
January 9th, 2013
10:51 am
- Some potential (and concern) for (possibility of) Justin and BJ, on the same team, creating an “us vs them” atmosphere in the clubhouse. Worth factoring into the conversation.
I worry more about the Uptons getting into a slap-fight in the OF when they call each other off of a fly ball and it drops between them.
David O'Brien
January 9th, 2013
10:53 am
So if the internal options don’t work out he can always show patience and make a deal at the deadline huh? So you call us stupid? If it doesn’t work from the beginning of the season up to the deadline, do you really think the Braves will be contending for the division title, or WC at that point?
Will this deadline deal work out like the Teixiera deal? You know, where the Braves were so close and traded for a big impact bat just to miss the playoffs again? The year they traded for Teixiera, with the numbers he was putting, I bet if they had him from the get go, they probably would have made the playoffs. So again, how does being patient and waiting for the market to come to him benefit the team? The trade market has already come to him, and left. Now the guys being shopped with cost a lot, and then Wren will balk at the asking price and pass. Sorry, but if we are stupid as “Arm Chair GM’s”, you are just as dumb with your logic. — Yuup
Yuup, are you familiar with the San Francisco Giants and the mid-season trades they made during their recent World Series-winning seasons?
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
10:54 am
richbrave, I can’t see the Nats or Braves getting that creative!
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
10:54 am
Great convo guys, but time for buying bird seed so the neighbors in the yard don’t have to look for worms…….or maggots, whichever. later.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
10:54 am
last time we made a spring training move, we ended up with Livan (Yuck), Juan (not good), and Durbin (okay, but not a very good reliever)…. wonder what we would get this year after ST lol. Or at the deadline…. with 8-10mil saved, that means we can go get a player who made 15-20+mil a year… guess Frank will acquire a player who makes that much and is good, while not giving up his good prospects… Spruill, Hale, and Lamm will get it done. Hah!
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
10:56 am
Nor I Jeff, nor I.
raleighbravefan
January 9th, 2013
10:56 am
TOBF – Keep beating that drum, if you wish. All opinions welcome here. My comment made no attempt to asess the value of our SPs, although I think we will be fine there…however, the BP WILL help mitigate any weakness with the starters.
David O'Brien
January 9th, 2013
10:57 am
Those who would object to the tomahawk are barred by laches. Those who object to the crazy/drunk/screaming “Injun” are not. — old man
crazy/drunk/screaming “Injun”? Hmmm … sounds like someone might be projecting his own prejudice onto others. Nothing personal, but how does one look at that logo and come up with crazy/drunk/screaming “Injun”? When you look at a picture of a smiling, laughing white or black dude, how do you describe it?
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
10:57 am
Yuup, are you familiar with the San Francisco Giants and the mid-season trades they made during their recent World Series-winning seasons?
Gave up a top prospect for Hunter Pence this season…. doubt they win without him
jfp
January 9th, 2013
11:01 am
DOB, agreed totally. There is no way a team would take a chance at ruining their ability to trade with a team long term for the sake of getting a player.
raleighbravefan
January 9th, 2013
11:03 am
TOBF – Durbin turned out to be a very good addition. Juan was usefull, for added depth, if nothing else. His real worth may still be to come. I’ll agree with Livan…and so would Wren.
Are you under the impression that every trade is successful?
Nova Scotia Steve
January 9th, 2013
11:04 am
According to those projects and assuming our bullpen wins roughly 20 games for the team. It looks like we could be an 86-90 win team.
Just projections but I thought it was interesting.
Disgusted
January 9th, 2013
11:04 am
Maybe Scott Borasss missed the boat this time but do not count on it.
Would I welcome Bourn back????? Heck yea — when ST starts its about the baseball on the field and having Bourn is better than what they have now or what is left among the available FA players.
Nova Scotia Steve
January 9th, 2013
11:05 am
According to those projections and assuming our bullpen wins roughly 20 games for the team. It looks like we could be an 86-90 win team.
Just projections but I thought it was interesting.
Mr Maggot
January 9th, 2013
11:05 am
“The only people that I know that run their mouths about this are non-Indians like yourself….”
No, like most of you, I, too, am a card-carrying Native American having 1/2096th from distant relatives I’m told by somebody who was told by somebody, who was told by somebody else that this is true. So, that’s a fact.
Disgusted
January 9th, 2013
11:05 am
I still think this is a 90-92 W team, might even be back to 94 or 95 if we can have suitable talent in LF.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
11:06 am
I could see no one getting in, not even Biggio…
Ben Duronio @Ben_Duronio
Here’s why I didn’t put Biggio in before those 10. If Jason Heyward has two more 5 win seasons, he’ll have as many as Biggio.
BravesFanInNashville
January 9th, 2013
11:07 am
Patrick… The difference is that Wren’s team on a mid market salary finished with 94 wins last year. Only 3 teams . The Yankees, Reds and Nationals won more games. NONE of them won the WS either. Should those GM’s be fired for not winning the WS?
The Braves were leading their Wild Card game with their hottest pitcher Medlen cruising when a future Hall Of Fame player in Chipper Jones who is normally very solid at 3B throws a tailor made double play ball into RF. Medlen should have been in the dugout with a lead and who knows how the season ends from there? With our bullpen I liked our chances to win that game. Exactly how did Wren mess that up?
Everyone with any baseball IQ will tell you what wins in this game is pitching, pitching and pitching! He has a stockpile of that with a really solid team on the field. We really have 1 question mark….. Will either Gattis or Francisco step up and contribute more than Chippers 14HR and around 60RBI ? If a platoon of them provides that or more I don’t see how this team is appreciably weaker.
Wren made the right move in passing on Bourn and signing Upton. He made an offer to Boras for Bourn that he was willing to pay and Boras declined. At the time it was believed that Bourn was looking for at least 6 years at $15 or more. Obviously no other GM’s thought he was worth that or he’d be signed by now. The two teams most strongly linked to him The Nats and Phillies passed and overpaid in terms of prospects for much cheaper players in Revere and Span. I think Wren played that perfectly as I don’t envy who’s playing CF in DC or Philadelphia and obviously no one else thinks Bourn is worth as much as he’s asking.
Lastly Wren has taken a lot of heat for not being willing to trade Simmons for Justin Upton. Well the Rangers wouldn’t trade Andrus or Profar for him and the Indians would trade Cabrera for him either. That also shows that other GM’s including Towers of the DBacks value a great SS more than a LF.
One more time the right move by Wren.
Wren overpaid for Lowe but he almost had no choice because or rotation was depleted with Hudson having surgery and Glavine and Smoltz being done. The only bright spots were the starts of JJ and Hanson’s careers. That year Burnett signed for over $72 million with the Yankees and they wanted Lowe too. If Wren hadn’t signed Lowe he would have been called cheap and fans would have been all over him for doing nothing. We got two solid years out of him one terrible year and then we had to eat most of the contract. FYI Burnett wasn’t worth what the Yankees paid him either but that’s the price of poker! Wren’s one black eye is Kawakami. Hey he took a chance that a pitcher from Japan with great stats could pitch over here with a slightly larger baseball. It didn’t work out! That’s as much on the scouts that advised the front office to sign him as it is on Wren. Besides Theo Epstien didn’t lose his job over the Dice-K fiasco. Not every move pans out folks get over it.
Comparing Wren to Lovie Smith is a big stretch. Different sports, different roles and far different results. Wren has the Braves in position to be good for a long time and that’s all a GM can do. He can’t start the double play from 3rd base with the whole season on the line too!
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
11:10 am
Tip O’ the Cap
January 8th, 2013
9:29 pm
So the Bill James handbook says the Bravos starting pitching will get a cumulative 66-59 record. That would imply that the bullpen would have to go 28-9 for a 94 win season. Is that probable? How does that compare to last year / other years?
Braves bullpen went 25-14 this season, 26-25 last year, 32-19 in 2010, and 21-27 in 2009
unbelievable
January 9th, 2013
11:11 am
- Gattis and Francisco…for real or not… should be an interesting ST. Either COULD become a very good CHEAP solution…could, that is…-raleigh
Cheap option not solution
Disgusted
January 9th, 2013
11:13 am
Boras will still find a good deal for Bourn – somehow – and it won’t be in Atlanta. Justin Upton – whatever his value is to the Braves, Kevin Towers is one of the biggest jerks in an executive ’s job in baseball. As I recall, Towers was a bit devious in his dealings with Wren for Jake Peavy’s services. And weren’t the Peavy negotiations between Towers and Wren leaked to the media?
@Jeff R — I rememberr those Peavy rumors though at the time it did seem to appear that Wren was offering a package of junk pitchers like Jo Jo, Morton and Boyer. Towers wanted Locke instead of any of those three and I can;t blame him for turning that down.
Wren also wanted Towers to take Kelly Johnson instead of a young Yunel & I would not have accepted that either had I been Towers.
In the end, it was a non deal that turned out to be a blessing for the Braves.
Those negotiations did get too public and it did backfire. CWS just offered Peavey more than FW did.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
11:14 am
Are you under the impression that every trade is successful?
Nope…. was just showing what happened from our moves last year… I’d think that getting a guy you want now is better than getting an outcast from ST or trying to rush a move together before the deadline.
Disgusted
January 9th, 2013
11:16 am
Biggio better get in or this vote is a farce.
I cannot get how this guy is not a first ballot HOF — I think he had a better career than Robbie Alomar who fell off quite quickly.
Now,, Alomar does deserve to be HOF in his whole body of work but for my liking I think Biggio was better.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
11:16 am
and I guess you still are optimistic on Juan…. I’m not, because he’s looked good in AA winter ball before. The holes in his swing get exposed at the MLB level.
Gattis though… maybe we have something there
Bigboi
January 9th, 2013
11:16 am
Hey did anybody see the Django Unchained? I hear it was incredible, but I wanted to check with you guys before going to see it.
Disgusted
January 9th, 2013
11:20 am
“Cheap option not solution”
Well, Simmons was a cheap option last yr and he proved to be a better solution and more ready than we ever imagined.
So with Gattis, we just do not know — he might be more ready than we think.
As much as I hate LM, and the pipeline is maligned for the lack of everyday players in the system the pipeline has been pretty good to us in recent yrs. Very much a home grown team in the middle of the order. Gattis just might fit in. Got to give him a chance if LM will not allow Frank to get a decent vet. There is not anything in FA save for Bourn whom I guess will be elsewhere.
Disgusted
January 9th, 2013
11:23 am
We know about Francisco’s weaknesses, we really do not know aboutGattis yet.
If he were 23 he would be more highly regarded by the fan base but some guys do come up later and do well.
Example — Josh Willingham — Jason Werth did not really develop till his later 20’s. Mike Morse did not really stick till age 27.
So there is some hope for Gattis.
ccrider
January 9th, 2013
11:24 am
I have always admired Ken Burns for his extraordinary work on PBS, but he has become a more admired figure than that with his stance on who should get in the Baseball Hall of Fame.
He said , If he had a vote , he would never vote steroid and ped users into the HOF.
But, The best quote was one that I whole heartedly agree with, he said: ” I want them to suffer”
I think all TRUE baseball fans felt the same way after the truth came out about Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire.
We have suffered the pangs of being deceived, lied to, and having lost time and money to a sham that Bud Selig and the other owners let happen.
By the Way, Burns Actual quote was a little more adament actually: He really said ” I Hope those Motherfu***** suffer
unbelievable
January 9th, 2013
11:24 am
With more an more teams fighting for the extra playoff spot its possible that there will be fewer impact players available around the deadline. With that scenario, trade values will be increasing and teams will still have to overpay. I dont see how the Braves could take the mindset of just waiting around to see who might be able to help during the season.
Bruce
January 9th, 2013
11:25 am
Serious problems, in my opinion, if the Braves go with existing players or rookies in LF this season. They have a habit of saying they think players will be able to do a good job only to backtrack later in the season to save face.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
11:26 am
no, you couldnt get him for $8mil. nice try!
He has a projected salary of about $3.5M for 2013. That is easily less than $8M. So yes, the team could afford him with the money they have left. Now to get all semantic, no where in your question, to which I was responding, did you prohibit trades. And also, no where in your question did you prohibit ideal and far fetched trades. ( :
DAP
January 9th, 2013
11:27 am
TOBF True, but not as good as the spots above…. plus he won’t be playing 130+ games, closer to 110 imo. Hasn’t reached 90 since he was a cleanup hitter, playing 130+.
ok. not playing enough games, or not hitting well enough, or not having a good lineup around him (if you think those things will happen) are good reasons to think theres no way he gets 90RBI. but if its because hell be batting 6 or 7…thats not a reason.
Bigboi
January 9th, 2013
11:28 am
So I take it that no one has seen Django Unchained?
unbelievable
January 9th, 2013
11:29 am
Well, Simmons was a cheap option last yr and he proved to be a better solution and more ready than we ever imagined.
True, but Simmons was here to shore up the defense and everyone knew that he was fully capable of doing that. Thats a big difference than giving Gattis or Fransisco a couple of hundred AB’s not knowing what they will provide. If we are going to go that route, then give Gattis his opportunity and get Prado to 3B. We’ve seen Fransisco post his sub .300OBP already.
Disgusted
January 9th, 2013
11:29 am
The Lowe sign was not the disaster that some make it out to be.
Of course it was an overpay but Braves fan in Nashville explained it as well as he could
Lowe won games, made his starts and gave us decent IP in 2009 and 10. He was bad in 11.
31-22 over 2 yrs with over 190 IP each yr is not a disaster. I know the ERA was high, part of it was when he was shelled, he was really shelled which made it worse than his overall value to the staff.
And no, I do not care about WAR, FIP and some of those numbers especially for a guy who pitched to contact.
He won for 2 yrs and no WC without Derek in ‘10. That is the good that counts.
He stunk in ‘11 and stunk in Cleveland in 12. That was the bad. Its history — a so so sign.
Even KK pitched better than his W-L in 09, he was not disgusting that first yr. Overpaid yes, poor sign, yes, but he was not Oliver Perez.
raleighbravefan
January 9th, 2013
11:29 am
Lots of grousing and second guessing about what Wren shoud do, or should have done about LF/3B.
Very few REALISTIC alternatives offered…other than, of course, that LM should quit being so cheap!
wreckmaniac
January 9th, 2013
11:32 am
Since Wren decided to pay Upton $500,000 per home run and is getting nothing else it would seem that Bourne is worth every penny he is seeking.
single white dove
January 9th, 2013
11:33 am
You know all these people on here have their two cents. What about how good the Braves will be next year?
Disgusted
January 9th, 2013
11:34 am
I agree with that Unbelievable.
In Francisco’s defense, he did play well at times — he looked better in the field in spots as the season went on and some scount will be intrigued by the power and bat speed when he gets ahold of the ball.
The pitch recognition can be learned. I do not know if he is an everyday player.
I would favor Gattis myself — could he be a Mark Napoli type????? If he can that is a real find.
I would not bet one hundred percent aganst Pastornicky improving and competing for LF if Gattis and Francisco fail.
And, there is a trade option if its needed — Wren is always talking to other teams even if he is not trading. There might be a name out there we know nothing about. Never know.
Murph
January 9th, 2013
11:34 am
We have suffered the pangs of being deceived, lied to, and having lost time and money to a sham that Bud Selig and the other owners let happen.
In fairness, I didn’t see many fans suffering when McGwire was chasing Maris… to the contrary, seemed that the nation was in pure baseball ecstasy at the time. My dad, who hated baseball, was even drawn into the vortex.
I feel cheated in that these guys directly affected the outcome of baseball games with their PED use,… who knows how some of those division and playoff races may have been different if the players were clean…. but I have a hard time saying that I suffered. It was pretty entertaining, much in the same way that professional wrestling is entertaining. Fake can be fun… so long as you know it’s fake going into it.
That being said, I agree that not a one of those players should ever get into the HoF.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
11:34 am
unbelievable @ 11:24 Interesting point
Disgusted
January 9th, 2013
11:36 am
Very few REALISTIC alternatives offered…other than, of course, that LM should quit being so cheap!
Not gonna happen. That payroll will be flat and even cut from here on end as long as that ownership is around. To date, it looks like they cut payroll.
They do not seem to be going away soon.
DAP
January 9th, 2013
11:37 am
He has a projected salary of about $3.5M for 2013. That is easily less than $8M. So yes, the team could afford him with the money they have left.
no, 10paul. it doesnt work that way. wren could not get stanton for $8mil. it would take much more than that.
raleighbravefan
January 9th, 2013
11:38 am
Bruce @11:25 – You mean like Heyward, Freeman, and Simmons? Some failures (i.e. the Rev), but plenty of successes for rookie starters for Braves and throughout baseball.
Many here, maybe including you, have clammered for Braves to make a trade for another team’s top prospect, with the plan to use him as a starter for us.
DAP
January 9th, 2013
11:39 am
10paul, im good at semantics. i said $8mil. thats it. your only asset to trade for an impact player who plays either 3B or LF. so a trade is fine, but you can only trade the $8mil. so, no stanton.
Nunna Yobinnes
January 9th, 2013
11:40 am
How is it that displaying a Native American head is being disrespectfuly to Native Americans. To me, it is a compliment to Native Americans, and a show of respect for their heritage and culture. Oh well, I guess we should just change our name to the Atlanta Baseball Players.
raleighbravefan
January 9th, 2013
11:43 am
My comment about LM being cheap…well that was said with faceciousness. I am well on record by saying that the payroll is reasonable, compared to the revenue.
raleighbravefan
January 9th, 2013
11:47 am
Nunna – There is a difference between an honorable depiction, and a charicaturization. Once again a case of one individual deciding what should be offensive to another individual.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
11:55 am
i said $8mil. thats it. your only asset to trade for an impact player who plays either 3B or LF. so a trade is fine, but you can only trade the $8mil. so, no stanton.
Now you’re moving the goal posts ( : You’ve wiped out the presence of the entire minor league system and major league roster and confined it simply to the teams wallet and required Major League GM’s to change their entire method of negotiation with each other from talent and contract swaps to simply purchases and assumed the most miserly of teams would not be interested in a pile of cash. Are all these restrictions included in the fine print of all your posts, because I certainly didn’t bother to bust out the magnifying glass. ( :
Nunna Yobinnes
January 9th, 2013
11:56 am
Generally, teams aren’t named after persons, animals or objects that are disrespected. Notice the absence of team names like “worms”, “bugs”, “winos”, “hyenas”, “turkeys”, “chickens”, “drunks”, “pigeons”, “donkeys”, “freeloaders”, “bums”, “psycho killers”, “wimps”, etc.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
11:57 am
Atlanta Baseball Players
That would be offensive to the night club playas who work ever so hard at keepin’ it real.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
11:59 am
Santa Cruz Banana Slugs.
Nunna Yobinnes
January 9th, 2013
11:59 am
I’ve got it! A name that dates back to our esteemed 1996 Olympics. The Atlanta Izzys, or the Atlanta WhatIzIts.
Nunna Yobinnes
January 9th, 2013
12:00 pm
The Atlanta Possums.
George_George
January 9th, 2013
12:01 pm
Chief Knock-A-Homa
January 8th, 2013
8:34 pm
Couple of things:
1 – DOB – do you NOT want the Braves to bring Bourn back, or what?? You just seem so negative about it when it is ever brought up… I mean, we get that it’s a long shot, but how great an outfield is that if we could work it out??!! Why not write about a way that it COULD work??
2 – And with Justin Upton – same thing… Why don’t you give us your thoughts on what the Braves WOULD be willing to deal for Upton ??
Would love to hear the positive thoughts on how both of these could happen…
***************************************************************************************
On number 2. Why would you want another non-aceiever named UPTON on our team? You would like to get BOURN back and trade JASON for JUSTIN?
Nunna Yobinnes
January 9th, 2013
12:01 pm
In honor of our esteemed elected officials in Clayton and Dekalb Counties, the Atlanta Crooks.
ccrider
January 9th, 2013
12:03 pm
Murph, Sure everyone thought they were seeing the most extraordinary moments in Baseball History.
It’s like a romance: You think you have found the perfect woman( or mate), you are in bliss and then you find out your in love with a former guy named Larry.
You feel stupid, deceived, and very angry, plus you have been financially taken advantage of.
Spike Lee
January 9th, 2013
12:04 pm
With only two African-American players on the roster, how about renaming yourself the Atlanta Crackers and have a rebel flag night.
And NO I’m not gonna see Django !
Nunna Yobinnes
January 9th, 2013
12:06 pm
Spike – too many Yankees living down here now. I bet Crackers wouldn’t go over well.
DAP
January 9th, 2013
12:07 pm
10paul Now you’re moving the goal posts ( : You’ve wiped out the presence of the entire minor league system and major league roster and confined it simply to the teams wallet
not moving anything. its what i said from the beginning. theres no fine print, but if you want to discuss semantics, then i just have to point out what i said, and only what i said. nothing more, nothing less.
ive already given you a break by not even mentioning the fact that you suggested a right fielder, when the parameters were specifically and 3B or LF! : ) i mean…if were arguing semantics and all!
in enjoying this to much. : )
Nunna Yobinnes
January 9th, 2013
12:07 pm
In honor of our multiple pollution problems, the Atlanta Particulants or the Atlanta ‘Hooch Turds.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
12:08 pm
the Atlanta Crooks
Chicago wants that name more
Repulsed
January 9th, 2013
12:08 pm
Trumbo. Upton. Cain. Bourn. Morse.
Surely we can do better than Schafer in LF ?
Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
12:10 pm
Ahhh, a “Banana Slug” reference. I remember in college traveling to Santa Cruz to compete against the slugs. At the time, I though the name was cool. Now, it seems clearly offensive
.
Nunna Yobinnes
January 9th, 2013
12:10 pm
The Atlanta Road Rage.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
12:10 pm
for the interstate system… the Atlanta Jumble
Murph
January 9th, 2013
12:12 pm
Liberty Media owns the STARZ movie channels… so… why not rename the team to the Atlanta STARZ, change the name of the field to STARZ Field, slap STARZ on the uniforms/hats/mugs/etc and then give the team an extra $25-50mil per season to basically act as a traveling billboard for the STARZ networks?
More money to spend, more exposure for their cable offerings, no more offending the native people, everyone is happy!
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
12:13 pm
Comment From Eric
With regards to your post about home/road splits regarding Upton, do you feel the same way about Cargo and why/why not?
12:03
Dave Cameron: Coors is a whole different animal. You definitely shouldn’t take COL hitters home/road splits at face value.
Upton’s splits at AZ aren’t too worrisome. Only 20 less than his brothers anyway, and there’s “potential”.
Surely we can do better than Schafer in LF ?
Yep. Gattis.
George_George
January 9th, 2013
12:16 pm
Murph
January 9th, 2013
12:12 pm
Liberty Media owns the STARZ movie channels… so… why not rename the team to the Atlanta STARZ, change the name of the field to STARZ Field, slap STARZ on the uniforms/hats/mugs/etc and then give the team an extra $25-50mil per season to basically act as a traveling billboard for the STARZ networks?
More money to spend, more exposure for their cable offerings, no more offending the native people, everyone is happy!
***********************
Not a bad idea.
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
12:16 pm
So if the internal options don’t work out he can always show patience and make a deal at the deadline huh? So you call us stupid? If it doesn’t work from the beginning of the season up to the deadline, do you really think the Braves will be contending for the division title, or WC at that point?
Will this deadline deal work out like the Teixiera deal? You know, where the Braves were so close and traded for a big impact bat just to miss the playoffs again? The year they traded for Teixiera, with the numbers he was putting, I bet if they had him from the get go, they probably would have made the playoffs. So again, how does being patient and waiting for the market to come to him benefit the team? The trade market has already come to him, and left. Now the guys being shopped with cost a lot, and then Wren will balk at the asking price and pass. Sorry, but if we are stupid as “Arm Chair GM’s”, you are just as dumb with your logic. — Yuup
How has the trade market come to Wren and left, exactly? Why are you making this assumption? The trade market, like most markets, are pretty dynamic.
As an example, the Nationals signed LaRoche yesterday. That presumably injected Mike Morse, a pretty good player, in to the trade market. I’m not saying there is any sort of decent chance the Braves will go after Morse. I’m just using this as an example of how the trade market can change pretty quickly and somewhat significantly with one move.
Nunna Yobinnes
January 9th, 2013
12:17 pm
Murph – Good idea. However, isn’t there a WNBA team with that name? Could be a trademark war ensuing.
Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
12:18 pm
Hey, it it meant more revenue for the Braves, I would not care if the team name was changed to the Atlanta Pile O’(bleep).
Nunna Yobinnes
January 9th, 2013
12:20 pm
The Atlanta Rodents. The Atlanta Squirrels. The Atlanta Varmints.
George_George
January 9th, 2013
12:21 pm
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
12:13 pm
Comment From Eric
With regards to your post about home/road splits regarding Upton, do you feel the same way about Cargo and why/why not?
12:03
Dave Cameron: Coors is a whole different animal. You definitely shouldn’t take COL hitters home/road splits at face value.
Upton’s splits at AZ aren’t too worrisome. Only 20 less than his brothers anyway, and there’s “potential”.
Surely we can do better than Schafer in LF ?
Yep. Gattis.
*************
I like the idea of going with what we have for LF, not tradeing or signing what is left out there. Use that money as part of contract to sign MARTIN.
old man
January 9th, 2013
12:21 pm
DOB at 10:57.
He looks drunk to me. But I may not be an expert. I always try to look in a mirror, but can never remember what I looked like.
Actually, I think of the Aunt Jemima logo of about 20 years ago. You remember that it was drastically re-done in 1989 to eliminate the smiling, big-toothed, fat mammy?
http://zmblackhistorymonth2011.blogspot.com/2011/02/feb-13-aunt-jemima-negative-stereotype.html
I think a more respectful, toned down version of the “firewater injun” image would be much better. At least it would be responsive.
The Aunt Jemima brand changed their ONLY logo, in midstream. At the time, it was a big deal.
Wes Jorga
January 9th, 2013
12:21 pm
Bill James projections for the Braves seem to be consistently conservative. Does anyone know how his projections have worked out in the past?
Nunna Yobinnes
January 9th, 2013
12:23 pm
Old Man – Like a Native American in a business suit?
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
12:24 pm
Trumbo. Upton. Cain. Bourn. Morse.
Surely we can do better than Schafer in LF?
There’s Gattis, who would likely be at least a noticeably better option, if not significantly better.
As far as all those other names, just because they are (maybe) on the trade market, it doesn’t mean they are there for the taking. Their respective teams are obviously going to want something in return.
It’s just odd how people assume because the Braves haven’t acquired a leftfielder or because there aren’t any obvious rumors, they haven’t tried or aren’t trying. There’s that select group of fans that simplify the trade market and how trading baseball players works.
Murph
January 9th, 2013
12:26 pm
I think a more respectful, toned down version of the “firewater injun” image would be much better. At least it would be responsive.
So… a smile equals drunk? Or yelling while smiling equals drunk?
Explains what happened to my Guinness and why my kids are so freaking happy/loud all the time.
Nick
January 9th, 2013
12:26 pm
I’ve seen Django twice, it’s very good.
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
12:30 pm
Bill James projections for the Braves seem to be consistently conservative. Does anyone know how his projections have worked out in the past?
From what I understand, Bill James’s projections are usually pretty optimistic, generally, compared to other projection systems.
…
I don’t think the Indian logo looks drunk, etc. I like it, aesthetically. My view, and I think the view of most reasonable people who aren’t fond of it, is why take the risk of offending a group of people if you can avoid it. I guess it’s not too shocking that for some there is no such thing as a reasonable discussion without demonizing the other side or throwing out terms that illicit outrage.
Nick
January 9th, 2013
12:31 pm
Wren is very incompetent. In fact, I think he should be fired after this season. He can’t complain about payroll now, LM gave him the funds. He promised premium players, we got one average player. Now we are hearing Schafer or Constanza in LF because we can’t afford Scott Hairston, much less a premium player.
Atlanta Braves Links of the Day For January 9, 2013 | Atlanta Braves Dugout Online | Atlanta Braves Blog
January 9th, 2013
12:32 pm
[...] Bourn back to Braves? Rumor mill gets a spin [...]
Posts about The Braves From Other Great Blogs issue #1 | Atlanta Braves Dugout Online | Atlanta Braves Blog
January 9th, 2013
12:33 pm
[...] From Other Great Blogs issue #1 Posted on January 9, 2013 by Dugout Online Editor Bourn back to Braves? Rumor mill gets a spin – blogs.ajc.com 01/09/2013 After GM Frank Wren said during a satellite-radio interview Sunday [...]
Posts about The Braves From Other Great Blogs issue #1 | Atlanta Braves Dugout Online | Atlanta Braves Blog
January 9th, 2013
12:33 pm
[...] From Other Great Blogs issue #1 Posted on January 9, 2013 by Dugout Online Editor Bourn back to Braves? Rumor mill gets a spin – blogs.ajc.com 01/09/2013 After GM Frank Wren said during a satellite-radio interview Sunday [...]
Murph
January 9th, 2013
12:33 pm
Zero Dark Thirty starts on Friday… anyone want to go with me? Mrs Murph refuses… might have something to do with me duping her into seeing The Grey with me.
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
12:39 pm
Nick, I doubt Schafer or Constanza will get the majority of playing time in leftfield for the Braves. My guess is that it will be Gattis or someone not currently on the roster. If by chance it’s not either of those options, I would think Prado would get the bulk of the playing time in left with Francisco playing thirdbase.
Scott Hairston is not a desirable everyday option for leftfield. Schafer or Constanza may be better options.
Wren can’t create a leftfielder from clay that is affordable, in terms of contract or players the Braves would have to give up.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
12:47 pm
Comment From Mike
Can the Braves afford to go into 2013 with a Reed Johnson/Juan Francisco platoon? And will they?
12:37
Dave Cameron: No.
Lord, I hope he’s right.
braves1in13
January 9th, 2013
12:52 pm
Barring a breakout spring, I don’t see Gattis in LF to begin 2013. Maybe later on. And I certainly don’t see Schafer and/or Constanza being more than a PR/late inning replacement. As of now, the Braves will more than likely start Prado in LF and Francisco at 3B vs RHP and Prado at 3B and Johnson in LF vs LHP.
vs RHP
LF Prado
CF Upton
RF Heyward
1B Freeman
C McCann
2B Uggla
3B Francisco
SS Simmons
vs LHP
3B Prado
CF Upton
RF Heyward
1B Freeman
2B Uggla
C McCann
LF Johnson
SS Simmons
The keys will be Uggla and McCann. If they can have bounceback years, the offense will be fine. If not, it will struggle.
Bigboi
January 9th, 2013
12:54 pm
@ Nunna… we can’t be the Atlanta Possums. We would get killed at home and play dead on the road. We would never win any games, unless at a neutral site.
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
12:55 pm
braves1in13, If Gattis is the best option, I suspect he’ll be out there from day one. I don’t think he necessarily has to have a “break-out” spring, though that would help. I think he just has to show that he’s capable of playing leftfield and he has to stay healthy, and for his sake he has to hope the Braves don’t acquire another leftfielder.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
12:56 pm
ive already given you a break by not even mentioning the fact that you suggested a right fielder, when the parameters were specifically and 3B or LF!
Ha! ( :
That was totally in line with my initial reading of your comment, and my glossing over the fine print, which apparently also includes restrictions on player positioning and movement on the field.
brian
January 9th, 2013
12:56 pm
thanks as always for the blog DOB! Couple questions though
-what do you think of Bill James’ projections?
-What did he project for Francisco/Gattis?
-if these predictions are close, do they translae to a division winner or wildcard?
I thought the predictions looked reasonable and reasonably promising for the upcoming season
abeeeewright
January 9th, 2013
12:56 pm
Shaun … “…illicit outrage…”
Is this outrage over all things illicit? Like inappropriate spanking?
Or, are you saying that the outrage itself is somehow out of bounds? For instance,
“A man went to a fight and a hockey game broke out. The crowd mooned the players in a display of illicit outrage.”
BravesFaninKY
January 9th, 2013
12:57 pm
DOB, you outdid yourself with this one. There was so much information that most can’t digest it during one sitting (hence some of the comments). Thanks so much. Lots to think about, including the 145 or so homers Bill James is projecting from 7 players. That should win a game or two.
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
12:57 pm
I commented last night, regarding movies. I didn’t see a whole lot of movies this year but it’s hard to imagine there were that many better movies than Flight. It instantly became one of my favorite movies. Such a compelling story.
Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
12:59 pm
I think that Gattis COULD be the best option for LF, but how can we know at this point. He is not a natural left-fielder and has never graced a major league roster. Nevertheless, I will be excited to see him perform in spring training.
JJJ
January 9th, 2013
12:59 pm
DOB Will Clyburn and Lucious worry you at all tonight? George Niang will be giving your Jayhaws fits for the next 4 years, real solid freshamn!
JJJ
January 9th, 2013
12:59 pm
DOB Will Clyburn and Lucious worry you at all tonight? George Niang will be giving your Jayhaws fits for the next 4 years, real solid freshamn!
abeeeewright
January 9th, 2013
12:59 pm
I can’t figure how you can project W-L. I’m assuming there is some runs scored/runs against model and the ERA gives the projection.
Maholm’s 4.00 seems a little high. Guy’s had some good seasons and some bad seasons. But, he seems like a career 3.5+ ERA guy.
Coach (2013, Is the future now?)
January 9th, 2013
1:00 pm
Bourn has about a snowballs chance in hell of coming back to Atlanta…but it’s still one in a million.
Dale Murphy has my Hall of Fame vote.
Long live the king of rock & rolll……..Elvis was spotted just last week in Vegas.
Our Bravos are an incomplete team as comprised, and spring training will bring many new questions for us the fans to try and answer.
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
1:08 pm
abeeeewright, “elicit,” I obviously meant. Sorry. The person I hire just to edit my comments has the day off.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
1:08 pm
I ordered all my Amazon albums the other day. I’ve checked the order status about every 15 minutes since then. Only half of it is on its way, the other half, some lazy clown is in charge of…. It just cannot get here fast enough. And the second half has my Miles Davis selection. Faster, amazon. Faster!
I thought I could order these and forget about it… then soak up the joy of the surprise when I see the box at my house waiting for me. But I can’t.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
1:09 pm
If Gattis is the best option, I suspect he’ll be out there from day one. I don’t think he necessarily has to have a “break-out” spring, though that would help
He needs to avoid a “break-down” spring.
jfp
January 9th, 2013
1:12 pm
Shaun, really liked the anaylsis about the clay. Don’t know why we have a few that think we should just spend the money for the sake of spending it if it doesn’t improve the team long term. Some of this money may be used to lock up Prado and I’ve got no problem with that. Haven’t seen Gattis a lot, but he really looks solid at the plate from what I’ve seen. He has been able to adjust at every level he has played and that is so important in the Majors. Probably the one thing that has kept Frenchy from reaching his potential.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
1:14 pm
Maholm’s is close to a 3.80 in my opinion… career 4.26, had a 4.48 up until age 28, 3.66 the last 2 years
3.80, 9-11 wins
Mr Maggot
January 9th, 2013
1:17 pm
Murph, how do you choose which players did/didn’t do it? That’s the fly in the ointment and the stakes are high for these guys. No doubt, guys being highly regarded as current potential HOC inductees for reasons unclear are not painted with that broad brush. Biggio? How the heck do we know one way or the other? Others implicated in the mess through admissions or speculations are toast. Keep in mind, most of what they did was not prohibited by the collective bargaining agreement at the time. So we can line up with our self-righteous ‘they should never get in schtick’ even though many of them are already in and others will fly under the radar because decision makers have made some judgement that has nothing to do with facts…necessarily. It’s a mess and not as simple as you’ve described. Gaylord Perry was a cheat and everyone thought it was funny and went straight to the Hall. Gosh, this is a mess.
abeeeewright
January 9th, 2013
1:18 pm
If nothing further transpires, the Braves will enter ST in 2013 with a better team than they entered in 2012.
The team that finished 2012 was better than the team right now. But, there’s a long season for the Braves to make improvements and resolve uncertainties.
Braves entered ST in 2012 with Hanson, Jurrjens, and Pastornicky as question marks. Hanson came through OK, but the other two were replaced by Medlen and Simmons by the end of the season.
Hudson entered ST having had back surgery and was a huge question mark.
Chipper entered ST and promptly announced his retirement at the end of the season, a season which he started on the DL.
Minor was competing with Teheran and Delgado for fifth starter and almost said, “Play me or trade me.”
Somehow, Livan Hernandez was added to the Braves roster. I’m not sure what gap he was intended to fill, but clearly there was one. And I don’t mean a sacrifice to the cursed locker or a gap in the buffet line.
Vizcaino blew out his elbow and the search was on to replace him. Wren finished ST with a last, desperate dumpster dive that surfaced with … “Gas Can” Durbin (who proved to be a valuable find by the end of the season).
Braves enter ST 2013 with …
1. Delgado/Teheran as fifth starter
2. Francisco at 3B and Prado at LF? Prado at 3B and platoon in LF?
Braves have Maholm and Johnson instead of Hanson and Hinske.
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
1:18 pm
Cliff Fiscal, seems like Gattis is not ideal for leftfield. He’s ideal for batters box, and it’s probably hard to know how good he is there. But he may be the best option, currently. I suspect he has enough bat to at least not kill them in leftfield.
beekay
January 9th, 2013
1:20 pm
NashvilleBravesFan..11:07 was on point. I agree that Wren has done a very good job.
abeeeewright
January 9th, 2013
1:20 pm
Shaun … “The person I hire just to edit my comments has the day off.”
Fire Shaun’s Copy Editor!
(I was, of course, pulling your leg. I knew you meant ‘elicit’ but ‘illicit outrage’ was too good to pass up.)
Joachim Gilman
January 9th, 2013
1:21 pm
dschoenfield David Schoenfield
BBWAA has elected one center fielder since Willie Mays retired (Puckett). Only seven all time.
14 minutes ago
kenhotlanta
January 9th, 2013
1:25 pm
“Crimson Tide” sounds like an ocean full of blood…what atrocity or mass killing are they celebrating and why aren’t more people upset over this “mascot”?
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
1:26 pm
Haven’t seen Gattis a lot, but he really looks solid at the plate from what I’ve seen. He has been able to adjust at every level he has played and that is so important in the Majors. Probably the one thing that has kept Frenchy from reaching his potential.
On Baseball America’s podcast, their guys threw a Josh Willingham comp on Gattis. I think that’s about right, from everything I’ve heard and read, though I wouldn’t bet on him being quite as good as Willingham at his best. I would say something like Hinske or Willingham, perhaps with a little more athleticism.
I think Frenchy’s problem is probably more to do with pitch recognition and lack of plate discipline without overwhelming power. Josh Hamilton has shown you can get by without all that much plate discipline and aggressiveness at the plate if you have something close to 80 power (though you need some discipline. See Juan Francisco). And I think pitch recognition and plate discipline is something that can’t be honed all that much once a player is at the age of most professionals.
WigWamWisps
January 9th, 2013
1:32 pm
Frank Wren: What do you think the chances are of a team like the Braves and a player like you… ending up together?
Michael Bourn: Well, Frank, that’s difficult to say. I mean, we don’t really…
Wren: Hit me with it! Just give it to me straight! I came a long way just to see you, Michael. The least you can do is level with me. What are my chances?
Bourn: Not good.
Wren: You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?
Bourn: I’d say more like one out of a million.
[pause]
Wren: So you’re telling me there’s a chance… *YEAH!*
Classic adaptation from “Dumb and Dumber.”
Stephen
January 9th, 2013
1:34 pm
After much thought, here is how I would like the Brave’s lineup to play out (as it stands with current players). Also, I’m not claiming this will be the opening day lineup, but rather what I hope to see once all of our rooks and new signings have settled in (I’m also throwing McCann in Beachy in there when they’re finally healthy). You should also keep in mind that I hated Dan Uggla the minute we traded for him:
Batting:
Prado 2B
Simmons SS
Heyward RF
Upton CF
Freeman 1B
McCann C
Gattis LF
Francisco 3B
Pitching:
Hudson
Maholm
Medlen
Minor
Beachy (only because he would come back mid season is he 5th)
I feel like moving Prado back to second base (He’s played over 200 games there), and benching the worst player on the team (Uggla), opens up a world of new options for the Braves’ lineup, and I’m baffled as to why this hasn’t at least been a consideration when things inevitably go poorly for Uggla. I’d hate to have to platoon Prado b/t third and left, making it a three man rotation between Prado, Johnson, and Francisco. To me this would only lend itself to inconsistency since neither Johnson or Francisco would be able to get into any sort of rhythm since they would be bouncing between the starting line-up and situational hitting roles, and if guys get hurt we need both of them to be comfortable facing righties and lefties.
Guys like Gattis and Francisco, if they keep up their winter league play, deserve a shot to play. Especially Gattis who, despite him being a mid 20’s rookie, has all the potential in the world to become another dynamic hitter in the lineup and possibly the natural clean-up hitter the Braves haven’t really had since the Gary Sheffield and Andruw Jones days around 2002 and 2003. If I had to pick one to start it would be Gattis though. The guy is a stud and can’t be ignored much longer, the only reason this guy isn’t already our left fielder was because he was away from baseball early in his career, but now he’s back and crackin homers like its batting practice (not to mention he hit over .300 last year in the minors and in winter ball thus far).
Again, this lineup is my perfect world assuming our guys keep up their winter league play and everyone else stays relatively healthy and keep on improving the way they have in seasons past (Freeman and Heyward mainly). No one will ever convince me Uggla is a good start, or roster spot, for the Braves. With the addition of Upton (which I like), Uggla’s stats/recent playing ability becomes an ever more toxic presence in the lineup since Uggla has already mirrored what our worst fear is for Upton.
With this roster the Braves can save their $8mil cap space for next season/trade deadline/all the arb eligible players we have coming up that we MUST resign. And at the same time we plan for the future, hopefully this time the right way with young all-stars in the field, starting rotation, and bullpen.
WigWamWisps
January 9th, 2013
1:34 pm
Shaun, if Gattis can play to Willingham’s level or get close to that in his rookie season, I would say hold on to your prospects and let Justin Upton fall where he may. Something tells me that when his contract is up, he could land in Atlanta. Save yourself the players for the future. While Wren gets criticized for not making moves, not making one may be the best move in this case.
Juan
January 9th, 2013
1:37 pm
HOF…..MURPH and CRIME DOG
T J Lambert
January 9th, 2013
1:37 pm
I still do not know how Mr Ted Turner did not change the offensive name back in the 90’s when he owned the team and the protest was gathering steam. I would suggest to change the name to some of my ethnic back round and bring back the Crackers name or just say the Raging Rednecks.
WigWamWisps
January 9th, 2013
1:39 pm
Several years ago, I posted on this here blog that I felt that Martin Prado would be a good addition to the roster. I felt at the time that he would make a good second baseman. Of course, I was told by multiple bloggers that I was crazy. I feel that Gattis could be a solid addition to the Atlanta roster. He would play left field, spot catch and maybe learn another position to spell other player like first base. Flexibility is huge in this day and age.
On a side note, Prado will not start at second base over Dan Uggla. He is being payed too much to sit the bench. If Prado ends up starting at second, Uggla has been traded or released.
kenhotlanta
January 9th, 2013
1:40 pm
In other news, Justified started their new season in high style last night with interesting story lines and several compelling new characters, including Patton Oswalt, Ron Eldard, and a creepy revivalist preacher. And I don’t think there has ever been a character on TV with the swagger and confidence of Raylan Givens, a man who is also extremely flawed…Timothy Olyphant was great in Deadwood, but he has taken Raylan to a whole new level.
Vegas is also hitting it’s stride and gets better every week. I love the period atmosphere, plus there are some fine looking women in this show.
Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
1:43 pm
Shaun – I would be happy is Gattis is the RH version of Klesko in LF. Is that being too optimistic?
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
1:47 pm
Verducci nailed it:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/news/20130108/hall-of-fame-ballot-steroids-mark-mcgwire-barry-bonds-roger-clemens/?sct=uk_t11_a0#all
Dean
January 9th, 2013
1:49 pm
Very informative, just one humble opinion……how about adding this choice to your survey options…..
“I don’t mind it (the 60’s era logo), but its from a time gone past and I can certainly see how it is borderline offensive to Native Americans and at the very best insensitive.”
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
1:50 pm
For those who might be interested regaqrding RGII,
he just completed a 5+ hour reconstruction of his right knee. The LCL was repaired, and the previously operated ACL was redone. Don’t know if either was replaced, and don’t know if the ACL was necessary due to wear and tear, or additional damage Sunday.
Mark (another one)
January 9th, 2013
1:51 pm
Is Juan Francisco still limited to only playing 1st or 3rd? I always heard it was because of his weight and we are now hearing he has lost weight and is working out.
I know Prado is a great defensive outfielder, but I keep seeing him as the proven solution at 3rd. That and Freeman at 1st would leave little playing time to Francisco as a reserve corner infielder.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
1:51 pm
their guys threw a Josh Willingham comp on Gattis. I think that’s about right
You thought it was “about right” when Law threw Gattis as a 4th outfielder AAAA player. Good to see even the mighty Gattis can move up in your standings.
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
1:51 pm
Recovery period 8-12 months.
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
1:59 pm
Two factors about Gattis: 1) He’s done much of his damage against lower-level minor league pitching and 2) he seems to chase some pitches (as compared to someone like Willingham or even a Ryan Klesko) so, while the power is there, it’s not clear how well the overall bat and approach will translate against major league pitching. Not to mention, of course, the concerns about whether he can play leftfield or other defensive positions and how well he can play defense.
He seems to have enough bat for the majors. It’s just a matter of whether he’s just someone who won’t kill the Braves if they throw him in leftfield or if he’ll provide some fairly significant value out there.
David O'Brien
January 9th, 2013
2:00 pm
It’s official: 2013 Baseball Hall of Fame class is vacant. For first time since 1996, no players elected by baseball writers.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
2:01 pm
Shutout.
Nice.
abeeeewright
January 9th, 2013
2:01 pm
““Crimson Tide” sounds like an ocean full of blood…what atrocity or mass killing are they celebrating and why aren’t more people upset over this “mascot”?”
It’s a type of algae which makes the ocean look like it’s full of blood. I don’t know how many people are upset, but I’ve done an unscientific poll of billions of the organism and they’re up in arms.
Well, they would be if they had arms.
raleighbravefan
January 9th, 2013
2:01 pm
WigWam – You are right…Uggla will not be benched.
However….there is NO chance he will be “released”. Braves would still have to pay him the FULL cost of his contract. This ain’t the NFL…MLB players association is a REAL labor union.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
2:02 pm
JIM BOWDEN @JimBowdenESPNxm
What’s obvious now is that next Hall of Famer voted in will be Greg Maddux in 2014
David O'Brien
January 9th, 2013
2:03 pm
Braves icon Dale Murphy named on 18.6 percent of ballots — he got 106 votes — in his 15th and final year on ballot.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
2:03 pm
Mark Bowman @mlbbowman
Dale Murphy received 18.6 percent of the votes during his final year on the HOF ballot. That was his highest total since 2000. #Braves
Good for him
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
2:05 pm
Shaun:
Somehow, I’m in the significant value area where GATTIS is concerned. I don’t sense quite as much upside as I did with SIMMONS, but fairly close. Call me guardedly optimistic. But like last year regarding SIMMONS, I’m not sure he’s quite ready for prime-time. I trust the org. though. If they think he’s ml material after sring training that’s good enough for me.
O.M.G.
January 9th, 2013
2:07 pm
WOW that’s sad, no HOF’ers. DOB when was the last time someone with 3000 hits and no problems on or off the field did not get in on their first try?
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
2:08 pm
Sorry about MURPH. If there was a good guys HOF he’d be unanimous. I remember his good cheer and patience with my kids when he was here in RICHMOND mobbed by fans.
tony austin
January 9th, 2013
2:11 pm
I don’t know if this will work, so I apologize in advance if this posts incorrectly. I want to post a table but have no idea if I can, so here goes.
I railed on Frenchy also, but he has had an 8 year ML career so far. Then I thought about looking at his numbers, and comparing them to BJ’s 8 year career so far, in 162 game averages:
table.tableizer-table {
border: 1px solid #CCC; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12px;
}
.tableizer-table td {
padding: 4px;
margin: 3px;
border: 1px solid #ccc;
}
.tableizer-table th {
background-color: #104E8B;
color: #FFF;
font-weight: bold;
}
Name/StatsRH2B3BHRRBIBBKOBPSLG
Francoeur76164343198534119310426
Upton90153343207572171336422
Diff-141100-110-38-52-264
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
2:15 pm
lol nope
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
2:16 pm
You thought it was “about right” when Law threw Gattis as a 4th outfielder AAAA player. Good to see even the mighty Gattis can move up in your standings.
I think the term Law used was “bench bat.” I don’t think that assessment is wrong, either. It’s clear he’ll hit enough to hold his own in the majors. But who knows if he’ll hit enough to make up for his defensive efficiencies. Willingham is a good comp, but it’s not clear yet whether Gattis has quite the hitting abilities as Willingham. He has the power, if not more. But can he handle higher-level pitching to the degree that he produces like a Willingham or a Klesko? I think he can handle higher-level pitching. It’s just a matter of whether he can handle it to the degree that he’s a good leftfielder or just an okay one that maybe shouldn’t play every day.
jmart1951
January 9th, 2013
2:17 pm
nolie: from Page 1
Just got to this blog but totally agree with what nolie posted on Page 1.
Prado’s best rated position is left field. With Prado in left field the Braves will once again have an elite defensive outfield. Why give that up to find a left fielder that weakens the Braves defensively while putting Prado at 3rd base where he is only above average.
Surely the Braves can find an above average defender at 3rd base which would have the effect of maintaining their elite defensive outfield.
The Braves are built around pitching. Pitching depends upon very good defensive back up. Without Prado at 3rd base the braves still have a great defensive shortstop, a very good defensive 1st baseman (the two most important infield positions, I think).
Fransicso at 3rd base will probably be around league average for defense. Uggla ia probably league average or slightly better. It comes down to the Braves having a better than league average defender to play against left handed pitching.
Looking at OBP, BA, OPS etc… the Braves have not significantly improved themselves offensively from last year, on paper.
Of course we are all hoping for bounce back seasons from Uggla and McCann and continued improvement from Freeman and Heyward. These type of banner years are what is needed to win divisions and world series.
Look at typical World Series winners and you will find many players having career years or close to it.
In my opinion Prado needs to remain in left field.
When Johnson plays left and Prado plays third I do not believe that the Braves give up much defensively in the outfield.
Of course, like many of you I would love to have an all star third baseman but that does not appear to be in the cards at the moment.
Also, FW really needs to up the ante and get Prado an extension.
Murph
January 9th, 2013
2:17 pm
Sorry about MURPH. If there was a good guys HOF he’d be unanimous.
Thanks rich! You know, I try to be as good a … oh. Oh, I see.
Nevermind.
David O'Brien
January 9th, 2013
2:17 pm
Craig Biggio (68.2 percent) and Jack Morris (67.7) came closest to the 75-percent required for election by BBWAA. Biggio named on 388 ballots.
Bagwell (59.6) and Piazza (57.8) were third and fourth, Piazza on his first ballot. Bodes well for his election. Biggio, Bags and Piazza will all get in, I’m fairly certain.
tony austin
January 9th, 2013
2:17 pm
Oh well, I guess it didn’t work, sorry about that.
I was comparing Frenchy to BJ, per http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/francje02.shtml and http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/u/uptonbj01.shtml:
For a 162 game average, Frenchy scores 14 runs less per season, has 11 more hits, even on double and triples, 1 less HR, 10 more RBIs, 38 less walks, and 52 less Ks. The 162 game average for BA, OBP, and SLG are close to being even.
I don’t see teams lining up to give Frenchy 5/$75, yet his numbers are comparable to BJs.
Disclaimer: I didn’t go into WAR, BABIP, and all of those other deeper stats for this comparison.
Juan
January 9th, 2013
2:18 pm
Take the Vote out the BBWAA and give to the Players. HOF are the ultimate place for Baseball Players Shine….any players with 5 plus year services can vote.
Yuuup
January 9th, 2013
2:18 pm
DAP
January 9th, 2013
10:24 am,
Read the article. Upton makes 8-9 million next year, then 10 million the following 2 years. It said the Braves can squeeze that into the payroll if need be. Justin Upton has all the potential in the world to be a impact player for us, more so than Francisco IMO.
Bayou Brave
January 9th, 2013
2:19 pm
Voters suck.
David O'Brien
January 9th, 2013
2:20 pm
Clemens (37.6 percent), Bonds (36.2) got more votes than previous ‘roid-tainted candidates. Sosa (12.5 percent) can forget it.
jmart1951
January 9th, 2013
2:20 pm
DOB
Do you think the writers were just making a statement that there would be no first ballot PED users but perhaps next year they will vote them into the HOF?
O.J.
January 9th, 2013
2:21 pm
Baseball Hall of Fame is a complete joke
ncgary
January 9th, 2013
2:22 pm
they should make a hall of shame for the ped ers
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
2:22 pm
The HOF votes please me. Well done. Well done.
19 players fall off the ballot. All first timers with the exception of Bernie Williams, his second year.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
2:23 pm
And Murphy, being his final year. So 20 in all.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
2:25 pm
Pleases me too TP… no one really deserves it.
a very good defensive 1st baseman
Freddie? Average. Little range, scoops about the same or just slightly better than any other 1B.
Bayou Brave
January 9th, 2013
2:25 pm
I agree with Juan @ 2:18.
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
2:25 pm
richbrave, I think the thing with Simmons is that he doesn’t have to hit that much to provide plenty of value. With Gattis he can only provide value in the batter’s box. He doesn’t have defensive skills at a key defensive position to fall back on.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
2:26 pm
Justin Upton has all the potential in the world to be a impact player for us, more so than Francisco IMO.
More so than his brother, based on age… everyone is on board w/ him
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
2:27 pm
I think the term Law used was “bench bat.” I don’t think that assessment is wrong, either
So you think being assessed as a 25 HR hitting, 125 OPS+ starting outfielder is the same as a “bench bat?”
Yuuup
January 9th, 2013
2:29 pm
Beekay,
I hear ya. I wouldn’t want them to spend the money just to spend the money either. I think however that there is a player out there that could significantly help this team that can be had via trade that falls into the payroll restraints. Could we get Upton? Could we somehow pry Headley away from San Diego? Could we get Fowler from Colorado? The Braves can do much better than a platoon of Reed Johnson and Juan Francisco, they just haven’t done anything. I guess being a career backup and pinch hitter is grounds to playing every few days when a lefty is pitching (Reed Johnson) and I guess losing some weight (which he shouldn’t have had to do if he was in shape to begin with) and having a good winter is grounds to be the the alternate at 3B when a righty is on the mound. Has 2 platoons ever worked out for a team? Especially when those platoons were players like Johnson and Francisco? Don’t get me wrong, I like Reed Johnson, but as a spare player and pinch hitter, not a platoon guy that will be counted on a lot during the season.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
2:29 pm
Sosa (12.5 percent) can forget it.
–DOB
As can Palmeiro (8.8%). With the players coming up next year and in future years, I don’t see him being able to squeeze in… I find it hard to see him lingering on the ballot for long.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
2:32 pm
Steve Berthiaume @BertDbacks
All HOF votes need to be public. The guy who voted for Aaron Sele should be made to explain himself.
LOL, nothing like a guy w/ a 4.61 ERA in the hall…
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
2:39 pm
TennesseePaul, personally I think Gattis is a poor man’s Josh Willingham. Willingham is a decent comp, as far as type of player, but I think Willingham’s production is a best-case scenario.
Personally I think Gattis will be somewhere between Hinske and Willingham, perhaps closer to Hinske but better than Hinske.
Murph
January 9th, 2013
2:43 pm
I’m really disappointed that Bonds got as many votes as he did.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
2:45 pm
Personally I think Gattis will be somewhere between Hinske and Willingham
Don’t put yourself out there too much, Payne. Some where between an .830, 25 HR a year 125 OPS+ hitter, and a pinch hitter. You have narrowed it down, so much it should be hard for him to nail that bulls-eye. I had him pegged for some where between greatest player ever or minor league scrub/roster filler.
David O'Brien
January 9th, 2013
2:45 pm
Just got off phone with Dale Murphy, and I mentioned something about it’s got to feel better being in his position, with his support and his reputation, than to be, say, someone getting a lot more votes but not as respected by his peers and many others.
He replied: “Oh, look. I feel very thankful and very happy to have been on the ballot for the Hall of Fame, to have been eligible for 15 years, to have had the career I had, to have started it out with the Braves, to have the memories I have and the family support that I have. I feel very happy and lucky to have been able to be a par tof this whole thing. I would love to be in the Hall of Fame, but I’m not sad. I’m very thankful and very happy and very blessed to have the memories and the fan support and the support of the people that I have. I’m very lucky.”
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
2:46 pm
I think Gattis will be somewhere between Hinske and Willingham
Not hard to beat the Hinske we had in Atlanta the last couple years lol…
I’m really disappointed that Bonds got as many votes as he did.
Yea… afraid he’ll get in before too long, like within the next 5-7 years.
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
2:47 pm
they should make a hall of shame for the ped ers
Yes, because PED users are the only baseball players in history who cheated or did something shameful.
All I’m going to say is the character clause is applied inconsistently, so it’s hard to take the Hall of Fame too seriously until the voters or the Hall of Fame itself gets that all sorted out. Starting at the end of last year’s vote, I’ve never cared less about the Hall of Fame than I have since then. It’s much more interesting to discuss hot stovey, front officey type things.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
2:48 pm
I’m really disappointed that Bonds got as many votes as he did.
And Clemens. Would have loved to have seen those two loitering around the drop off threshold like McGwire has.
abeeeewright
January 9th, 2013
2:50 pm
Even though you knew there was no way he’d get in, I’m saddened that Murph is no longer eligible for the straight vote into the HoF.
I understand the rationale of the voters, but I’m still saddened.
Wes Jorga
January 9th, 2013
2:50 pm
Gattis strikes out much less than Willingham or Hinske. He is also known for being a clutch hitter, which, I guess, Hinske was known for (before last year). His defense potential is still unknown as he is learning left field and hasn’t even had enough time behind the plate to assess his ceiling. He does have a good arm and decent range and will most likely get some assists in LF.
Wes Jorga
January 9th, 2013
2:52 pm
Murphy, Dale that is, is a class act.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
2:54 pm
“Why should we care at all? Good question. You, in fact, may not care. But this one of 570 or so is my ballot. I do care. One reason is the “character clause” in the voting instructions, something that many writers and observers have mangled out of shape in Cirque du Soleil acrobatics to excuse steroid users. The label “character clause” has become a pejorative. No such title exists. The instructions say only, “Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”
People have twisted this to mean “morals,” or, that since “racists” are in the Hall, you must allow steroid users. Such assumptions have led people to promote the idea of removing the “character clause.” Do these people know the origin of the clause?
The clause comes from the man who came up with the very idea of the Hall of Fame itself: Alexander Cleland, an immigrant from Scotland who worked for Stephen Clark, a wealthy lawyer who grew up in Cooperstown. After a meeting with Clark in Cooperstown in 1934, Cleland saw laborers working on Doubleday Field and learned from them about plans there five years hence to celebrate the 100th anniversary of the game’s mythical beginning. On the train to New York, an inspired Cleland composed a memo to Clark about the idea of a baseball museum in Cooperstown. Later, with the backing of NL president Ford Frick, Cleland and Clark included the idea of enshrining the best players as part of the museum. They decided to enlist the Baseball Writers Association of America to hold an election in 1936 to decide which players would be so honored.
According to an August 1944 memo by Hall of Fame treasurer Paul Kerr, it was Cleland who listed general rules for voters, including the 75 percent threshold and also deciding that “those worthy of Hall of Fame election should be selected from the ranks for ability, character, and their general contribution to base ball in all respects.”
Now you know that one of the founding fathers instructed “character” to be considered from the birth of the Hall itself. It’s a central, original principle of the voting process. You don’t just dismiss the Thomas Jefferson of the Hall of Fame and 77 years of history to accommodate steroid users.
(Here’s an example of why “character” has mattered from the very beginning of Hall elections. In that inaugural 1936 election, 226 baseball writers cast ballots. They could vote for up to 10 candidates, and mostly all did. A total of 2,231 votes were cast, or an average of 9.87 names per ballot. Joe Jackson, a career .356 hitter, received only two of the 2,231 votes. Jackson was fully eligible for Hall of Fame election, though commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis had banned him from baseball because of his involvement in the 1919 Black Sox scandal. The writers overwhelming decided he was not a Hall of Famer.
Bill Slocum, writing in the New York American, immediately took notice of the lack of support for Jackson, who otherwise had the eligibility and the numbers to gain far more support, if not election. Rule 21d, the Major League Baseball rule prohibiting betting on games, wasn’t even in place when Jackson was implicated in the Black Sox scandal. Landis crafted it in the early 1920s. The rule prohibiting players on the ineligible list from appearing on a Hall of Fame ballot was not adopted until 1991, as a pre-emptive measure to keep Pete Rose from being considered by the writers.)
Forget the racists and scoundrels comparison. Here’s my issue with steroid users as it relates to the “character clause:” it’s about how they played the game between the lines, not how they conducted themselves outside of it. It’s an issue of competitive integrity, not personal integrity. They bastardized baseball, eroded the implicit fairness of it and disadvantaged those who chose to play fairly to extents never seen before.
”
–Verducci
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
2:54 pm
TennesseePaul, something a little better than Hinske. In my view, that’s what’s most likely, in terms of an average Evan Gattis season, somebody that probably won’t kill a team if they put him in leftfield but it will need to be on a team with offense in other areas. And ideally he would be a bench-type bat or a DH type on a team with good offense in other places.
You conveniently left off the part, “closer to Hinske but better than Hinske” because it didn’t fit your criticism. Funny how that works.
kenhotlanta
January 9th, 2013
2:55 pm
abeeeewright: D)
David O'Brien
January 9th, 2013
3:00 pm
Well said by the always-eloquent Tom Verducci (in TennPaul’s comment at 2:54 p.m.)
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
3:03 pm
Forget the racists and scoundrels comparison. Here’s my issue with steroid users as it relates to the “character clause:” it’s about how they played the game between the lines, not how they conducted themselves outside of it. It’s an issue of competitive integrity, not personal integrity. They bastardized baseball, eroded the implicit fairness of it and disadvantaged those who chose to play fairly to extents never seen before.
1) There were PEDs in the game even before steroids.
2) Other types of cheating, besides PED use, has largely been ignored if not charming to plenty of voters.
3) Gambling definitely “bastardized baseball, eroded the implicit fairness of it and disadvantaged those who chose to play fairly.” But there are plenty of Hall of Famers who consorted with gamblers, knew gambling was going on and chose to do nothing.
4) Not standing up against rascism also “bastardized baseball, eroded the implicit fairness of it and disadvantaged those who [wanted] to play fairly” (namely the best black players who wanted their chance).
The character clause is applied inconsistently, therefore it’s hard to take the Hall all that serious.
All this is about writers taking a stand to feel good about themselves. If they thought about it, they would realize this is the first time in history that voters have been concerned with the bastardization of baseball, eroding fairness, etc.
raleighbravefan
January 9th, 2013
3:03 pm
“Braves can do better than…” , usually followed by some combination of current “internal”options, is becoming one of the most common/popular phrases showing up on the ole blog these days.
My (serious, non-facetious) question is…can they…can they really, considering the actual options available, the budget constraints, the value vs cost of what is available? If you disreguard the purely fantacy suggestions…there aren’t all that many alternatives. Some here need a reality check.
By the way, Wren’s stated desire to add a couple of “premium” players was not a promise, it was a goal. BTW, what is the definition of “premium? Most would consider BJ in that category…or else, the only player available that was truly premium was Josh Hamilton. Considering Wren a “liar” is way beyond reality.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
3:04 pm
You conveniently left off the part, “closer to Hinske but better than Hinske” because it didn’t fit your criticism. Funny how that works.
The “ball park” comparison included such a large swath of potential production… from Willingham to Hinske… from a starting outfielder who hits .830, 25HR a year, 125 OPS+, to a bench player/pinch hitter. Even if it is “closer to Hinske” as you cling to, you could brought the top of that Grand Canyon size projection down considerably further from Josh Willingham.
That is the criticism, Payne. I didn’t “leave off” anything to make it fit.
It could also be stated that Gattis is probably going to be somewhere between Babe Ruth or Charles Thomas, but probably closer to Charles Thomas than Babe Ruth. That doesn’t make the “comp” any better. It’s still entirely meaningless, and is essentially another way of stating: “I don’t think he’ll be good, but I don’t know.”
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
3:08 pm
Never has there been a more uneven playing field since the game was integrated than the one during the Steroid Era.
You have to understand how much steroids changed the game. In the rush to dismiss them, people have thrown out awkward analogies about petroleum jelly, sandpaper, cork, tacks, diet pills from the ’70s, etc. under the catchall category of “cheating.” Stop it. You know what steroids are like? Steroids. Nothing else rises to the level of steroids when it comes to anabolically changing the body so that it can do far more than it ever could do without them. Steroids took hold because they take a player well beyond his natural ability. Caminiti said he felt like “Superman” with steroids; they even improved his speed.
–Verducci
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
3:10 pm
This idea that baseball was once pure and steroids completely ruined it is self-serving to some of the writers who want to make a moral stand or is something some writers believe because they don’t want to have to think about how context relates to statistics, they just want certain statistics to mean more than they actually do and they don’t want to have to do much digging in to context as it relates to statistics.
There are plenty of things in baseball’s past that were as bad or far worse than steroid use by players, as far as compromising the game’s integrity, fairness and bastardized the game, things that were/are never considered in Hall of Fame voting.
Some writers are more bothered by steroids because it a) makes them look moral and b) it means they can’t just mindlessly look at stats, but they have to consider stats and context and actually have to think through the stats and what’s behind them.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
3:12 pm
.242/.317/.436/.753 the last 3 years… 130 runs of offense value a year, loses about 5-10 on defense.
Premium. Replaces Bourny for sure!
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
3:12 pm
1) There were PEDs in the game even before steroids. So that justifies steroid (mis)use?
2) Other types of cheating, besides PED use, has largely been ignored if not charming to plenty of voters. Be more specific on your “charming” accusation. And because other types of cheating have been ignored means that steroid cheating should be given a pass?
3) Gambling definitely “bastardized baseball, eroded the implicit fairness of it and disadvantaged those who chose to play fairly.” But there are plenty of Hall of Famers who consorted with gamblers, knew gambling was going on and chose to do nothing. That makes what they did right? And because some bad apples got into the Hall that means others should be permitted in?
4) Not standing up against rascism also “bastardized baseball, eroded the implicit fairness of it and disadvantaged those who [wanted] to play fairly” (namely the best black players who wanted their chance). Different times, different context, but in, I believe, 1948 the Brooklyn Dodgers took a giant step in ending racial discrimination in the majors by bringing up Jackie Robinson. That’s a huge breakthrough and shouldn’t be downplayed. Major League Baseball helped pioneer the end of racial discrimination in America.
flange1
January 9th, 2013
3:13 pm
DOB,
Thanks for the Dale Murphy quote.
He was, is and always will be a class act.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
3:14 pm
This idea that baseball was once….
How did you get to that from: Starting at the end of last year’s vote, I’ve never cared less about the Hall of Fame than I have since then
Are you starting to care more again? If not, why do you insist on continued commenting on the topic you care so little about?
David O'Brien
January 9th, 2013
3:28 pm
TennPaul: Yeah, I was thinking the same thing (3:14 p.m.)
David O'Brien
January 9th, 2013
3:29 pm
Great points by Jeff R. at 3:12 p.m.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
3:30 pm
Rtot/yr — Total Zone Total Fielding Runs Above Avg per 1,200 Inn. The number of runs above or below average the fielder was worth per 1,200 Innings (approx 135 games). This number combines the Rtz, Rdp, Rof, Rcatch numbers into a total defensive contribution. Provided by BaseballProjection.com…old man
I’ll take +/- every time.. the ratings usually correspond pretty closely to what many scouts opine
Disgusted
January 9th, 2013
3:33 pm
The writers messed up on not electing Morris and Biggio.
Biggio will get there as for Morris, he will be hurt by the sabermetric evaluators.
Its all about power pitching this day in time. The new fangled way of evaluating pitchers helped Bert Blyleven, hurt Jack Morris.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
3:33 pm
I’ll take Upton over Bourn every day and twice on Sunday and I don’t care what the saber metric numbers are…Dadgum
if you mean defensively, then you are in a nationwide minority of one
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
3:33 pm
Never has there been a more uneven playing field since the game was integrated than the one during the Steroid Era.
You have to understand how much steroids changed the game. In the rush to dismiss them, people have thrown out awkward analogies about petroleum jelly, sandpaper, cork, tacks, diet pills from the ’70s, etc. under the catchall category of “cheating.” Stop it. You know what steroids are like? Steroids. Nothing else rises to the level of steroids when it comes to anabolically changing the body so that it can do far more than it ever could do without them. Steroids took hold because they take a player well beyond his natural ability. Caminiti said he felt like “Superman” with steroids; they even improved his speed.
So essentially some cheating is okay, some is not.
I disagree that steroids did more than other things that the voters have never considered much to create an uneven playing field. Maybe as much as some of those other things, but not more.
I would say gambling was much worse, in terms of compromising the game. But much of that was completely swept under the rug because Judge Landis gave harsh punishments to the eight Black Sox, and to his credit, he made sure that no other player would gamble again. But the problem was far more expansive than many fans realize.
Collusion was just as bad, but that was from management side so it doesn’t really come in to play with Hall of Fame voting for players.
I don’t think it’s all that clear how expansive amphetamine use was. There is some indication that it was as widespread as steroid use, if not more so. Even if you don’t think that form of cheating is as bad as steroid use, the indication is that is was going on enough that it shouldn’t be ignored if you are going to choose to apply the character clause to steroid use.
I think some are underestimating how impure the game has been throughout its history, a reason historian types should probably have more of a say in the Hall of Fame voting process rather than reporters and writers, some of which haven’t covered baseball in years, if not decades. I think plenty of voters are ignorant of these impurities in the game beyond steroid use, which is understandable, because it’s not their job to know the history of the game, in and out. Of course the impurity that is going to stand out is the one that got and continues to get the most media attention while they are/were covering the game.
David O'Brien
January 9th, 2013
3:36 pm
There are plenty of things in baseball’s past that were as bad or far worse than steroid use by players, as far as compromising the game’s integrity, fairness and bastardized the game, things that were/are never considered in Hall of Fame voting.
Some writers are more bothered by steroids because it a) makes them look moral and b) it means they can’t just mindlessly look at stats, but they have to consider stats and context and actually have to think through the stats and what’s behind them. — Shaun
That, or they’re smart enough to know that having your head size go from 7-1/4 to 8-plus and slugging .812 with a 1.422 OPS at age 39 is preposterous, and that players shouldn’t be honored for knowingly cheated by pumping their bodies full of illegal steroids and putting on 30-40 pounds of muscle mass while increasing their workout potential and reducing the recovery period between workouts.
I mean, this isn’t the NFL. This is a sport that cares about its statistics and would prefer those stats not be rendered meaningless by performance enhancing drug-fueled, age-defying hitting and pitching machines.
Disgusted
January 9th, 2013
3:36 pm
Bagwell should get in the HOF in time also — hope Biggio and Bawell do not have to wait too long.
Tod bad about Murphy — he never really got serious consideration, he was two more good years away from HOF. That would have added another 70 or so HRS and 210 more RBI’s. That might have been enough.
His later yrs dropped the career BA. A great career that the writers threw in the trashbin. Elitist jerks, that is what they are.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
3:37 pm
if you mean defensively, then you are in a nationwide minority of one
And over the next 2 years, offensively too.
Disgusted
January 9th, 2013
3:41 pm
Hey, the writers messed up on Gil Hodges, so Murphy is not the first guy who got scewed.
Hey, look how long it took justice to be done for Ron Santo — whom I thought was a slightly better overall player than Brooks Robinson — he never got to enjoy it in his lifetime.
Santo was a better offensive player than BR and was the GG standard in the National League in that era.
BR was a great player who was deserving — but Santo deserved the honor in his lifetime.
Disgusted
January 9th, 2013
3:45 pm
Gambling and steriods — One was as bad for the game as the other.
The powers that be were asleep at the wheel in the 1990’s so though its on the individuals who used the stuff I blame the powers that be that let it happen just as much.
I hope Buddy Selig never gets in the HOF, the steroid era is as much on him as anyone who used– he could not have known what was going on.
It was allowed to happen till they had to change.
abeeeewright
January 9th, 2013
3:46 pm
Verducci … “Caminiti said he felt like “Superman” with steroids; they even improved his speed.”
And we all know that Caminiti was no p***y. Right, Murph?
Disgusted
January 9th, 2013
3:47 pm
Correction — Selig could not have not known what was going on.
Rest assured that a commissioner like Bowie Kuhn would have got his nose to the grind and got to the bottom of it faster than whatever.
Disgusted
January 9th, 2013
3:48 pm
Caminitti got away with nothing — was his own undoing.
abeeeewright
January 9th, 2013
3:51 pm
nolie … “if you mean defensively, then you [Dadgum] are in a nationwide minority of one”
Could the Braves put a “Screaming Dadgum” on their caps?
single white dove
January 9th, 2013
3:51 pm
I WOULD LIKE TO SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THE WRITERS THAT DID NOT VOTE IN THE MURPH IN THE HALL: YOU YANKEE SCUM! YOU YANKS HAVE MORE HATE FOR THE SOUTH THAN ANYTHING IVE SEEN.
tony austin
January 9th, 2013
3:52 pm
I understand a little about the HOF voting process, but I don’t think I’ll ever understand how a player can get so much better, while he’s retired, that he makes the HOF on his second try, or third try, and so on. If he’s good enough to make it then, he’s good enough to make it now. The voting process needs to be completely overhauled in my opinion.
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
3:52 pm
TennesseePaul and DOB, I’m not saying I care. I think I have a pretty good idea of who the best players are, or at least can find out. I don’t need a group of voters to sanctify those players. I know Tim Raines was better than Jim Rice, for example. I’m just expressing my thoughts on why the Hall of Fame and the voting process is the way it is.
There were PEDs in the game even before steroids. So that justifies steroid (mis)use?
No one is saying steroid use is justified. We are saying PED use is PED use, cheating is cheating. Some are bothered by the inconsistency there. If you are going to brush aside one form of cheating, don’t suddenly be unwilling to accept other forms.
2) Other types of cheating, besides PED use, has largely been ignored if not charming to plenty of voters. Be more specific on your “charming” accusation. And because other types of cheating have been ignored means that steroid cheating should be given a pass?
Gaylord Perry doctored baseballs. The voters eat that up and find it charming.
3) Gambling definitely “bastardized baseball, eroded the implicit fairness of it and disadvantaged those who chose to play fairly.” But there are plenty of Hall of Famers who consorted with gamblers, knew gambling was going on and chose to do nothing. That makes what they did right? And because some bad apples got into the Hall that means others should be permitted in?
It goes back to the issue of inconsistently applying the character clause.
4) Not standing up against rascism also “bastardized baseball, eroded the implicit fairness of it and disadvantaged those who [wanted] to play fairly” (namely the best black players who wanted their chance). Different times, different context, but in, I believe, 1948 the Brooklyn Dodgers took a giant step in ending racial discrimination in the majors by bringing up Jackie Robinson. That’s a huge breakthrough and shouldn’t be downplayed. Major League Baseball helped pioneer the end of racial discrimination in America.
Agreed. The point was about the players (and owners, execs, etc.) who did nothing to stop racism and in fact help advance the institutional racism that existed in baseball prior to Jackie Robinson. Again, inconsistencies in applying the character clause.
I understand you can’t go back and apply the character clause to kick people out of the Hall of Fame. My point is the character clause has never mattered until the steroid era players. So I take the Hall of Fame less serious when there is a clause that the voters ignore until it is inconvenient for them to ignore. How can you take an institution serious when they don’t understand how to apply their own criteria consistently?
I’ll just do my own research in to which players were the best and how good they were, and I hope others do the same, rather than relying on a group that doesn’t know whether they should or shouldn’t apply a clause that’s in their voting criteria.
single white dove
January 9th, 2013
3:53 pm
Jim Rice did not have steller numbers and he is in.
Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
3:55 pm
Interesting how a non-vote for Murphy for the HOF can be equated with the deepest hate for the South ever seen.
DAP
January 9th, 2013
3:56 pm
yuuup Upton makes 8-9 million next year, then 10 million the following 2 years. It said the Braves can squeeze that into the payroll if need be.
upton is set to make $9.75 mil in 2013, plus he would cost a number of good players in a trade. thats quite a bit more than $8mil.
Utah Dawg
January 9th, 2013
3:57 pm
I now want any piece of clothing with that logo..super cool retro. I am sorry but is there any attempt to disparage the native american. It more glorifies a warrior image from the long ago past. Tell you what, we will remove any reference to native americans from sports in exchange for elimination of native american gaming …because I find gambling offensive and much more damaging to the human spirit than violations of your PC codes.
flange1
January 9th, 2013
3:57 pm
It is hard for me to get upset about the HOF voting. Or MVP voting. Or Silver Slugger voting. OR Gold Glove voting.
As long as there are no specific standards for voting any of these “awards”, voters are going to use there own standards to make the selection.
While I think most voters do try their best to get their votes right, bottom line is all of these “selections” are totally subjective.
In my mind the conversation needs to be more about how to improve the process as opposed to the results.
Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
3:58 pm
Shaun – I’ll just do my own research in to which players were the best and how good they were, and I hope others do the same, rather than relying on a group that doesn’t know whether they should or shouldn’t apply a clause that’s in their voting criteria.
This all sounds very subjective.
flange1
January 9th, 2013
3:59 pm
Oh, so now players could have stopped racism?
That is one of your best lines ever…..
nolie
January 9th, 2013
4:00 pm
Biggio, Bags and Piazza will all get in, I’m fairly certain….DOB
yeah me too, though I think Biggio and Bags should have gotten in this year. This possibly sets up the beginnings of a HOF backlog situation over the next half dozen years or so
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
4:03 pm
That, or they’re smart enough to know that having a head-size go from 7-1/4 to 8-plus and slugging .812 with a 1.422 OPS at age 39 is preposterous, and that players shouldn’t be honored for knowingly cheated by pumping their bodies full of illegal steroids and putting on 30-40 pounds of muscle mass while increasing their workout potential and reducing the recovery period between workouts.
Bonds was still one of the top 20-30 players of all-time, whether he would have used steroids or not. Whether someone is a top player has been pretty much the only criteria for Hall of Fame enshrinement, except of a handful of players who consorted with gamblers (not all) who are not even allowed to be considered.
Should he be honored? Well, the Hall and the voters already decided to honor players who did things as “preposterous” or more so, or maybe less so but still “preposterous.”
I can take it seriously if the voters keep a guy out because they believe he wouldn’t have been a Hall of Famer without PED’s. I can’t take the Hall seriously if the voters are going to decide that certain preposterous acts, which may not actually be any more preposterous than others, are alone enough to keep a player out.
Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
4:03 pm
How much one wants to factor in or out the impact of steroids seems wholly subjective.
Murph
January 9th, 2013
4:03 pm
Poor Shaun. He’s the only one who gets it. Must be a tough way to go through life.
beekay
January 9th, 2013
4:03 pm
Yuup, I hope we can get one of those guys. I think we are really close to having a Championship team this year. Here in DC they think the Nationals have already won the division….not so fast I say
nolie
January 9th, 2013
4:03 pm
Upton makes 8-9 million next year, then 10 million the following 2 years….yuuup
Justin? no he does not. he makes almost 10mil in ‘13 and over 14mil the next two years
Disgusted
January 9th, 2013
4:06 pm
Jim Rice did have the .298 career BA and .352 OBP — along with 382 HRS and 1451 RBI.
Had 8 100 RBI yrs — had a tremendous stretch of dominance from 77 to 79 and a dominant yr in 1983. One MVP award.
And he pretty much did an el foldo after his age 33 season
His nomination was deserving.
Murphy was deserving for his complete body of work but that el foldo from age 32 on did it to him as far as HOF. In essence, he was done after 91 at age 35. He played sparingly in his age 36 and 37 yrs.
If only he had two more good yrs. You would be looking at the high 400’s of HRS and close to 1500 RBI’s. 1500 RBI’s is another number that is not thought of but nearly all of the 1500 RBI club is in
nolie
January 9th, 2013
4:06 pm
this blog is working pretty good for me so far today, I hope I’m not jinxing it
perhaps all those quotes from irate bloggers I sent in to the feedback address the last 4 days got something going?
Hope it keeps doing well. I know that today is a small sample size…..
Disgusted
January 9th, 2013
4:10 pm
My thinking is that Jack Morris will come up short.
Guess good old fashoned wins and finishing what you start is out of style this day in time.
Looking at his whole body of work, the post season added to everything he did do should have put him over the top but guess its going to be coulda woulda shoulda for him as far as the HOF goes.
As said before, the sabermetrics of today will hurt him. It hepled Bert Blyleven cause of the strikeouts and shutouts, it will not help Morris
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
4:11 pm
don’t suddenly be unwilling to accept other forms.
How sudden do you suppose baseball moves? Are these voters who voted in the “cheaters” from the 19th century still around, and “suddenly” voting with the exact opposite opinion? I’d think after 70 years, the term “sudden” is a bit of a stretch.
2:47pm: Starting at the end of last year’s vote, I’ve never cared less about the Hall of Fame than I have since then
3:52pm I’m not saying I care
You seem to be putting an awful lot of effort into something you have twice, in under 1 hour and 15 minutes, professed to not care about.
I don’t care about Brittney Spears. I care so little, in fact, that I have not commented on her until now in the decade I have been on this blog.
Murph
January 9th, 2013
4:11 pm
Bonds was still one of the top 20-30 players of all-time, whether he would have used steroids or not.
OJ was a great football player… do you think he’d get elected to any HoF if he came up for a vote today?
raleighbravefan
January 9th, 2013
4:13 pm
Shaun – Steroids affected performance far more than things like amphetamines. You have to draw the line somewhere.
Of course, you are wrong about Gaylord Perry…he had trouble getting in, and many writers refused to vote for him, even with 300+ wins and Cy Younbg awards in both leagues. I don’t recall anyone saying it was charming. BTW, he was only thrown out of one game because of suspicion of doctoring the ball (late in his career). You are obviously too young to know, and too lazy to do the homework.
“Consorting with” and knowing gamblers is hardly the same as ACTUALLY gambling, especially gambling on the game. As EVERY baseball player knows, and is constantly reminded (including Pete Rose) Gambling on baseball is THE ONE THING which draws the “death sentence” in MLB…because it directly goes to the integrity of the game. BTW, is Pete Rose in, and I didn’t hear about it?
Racism is inexcusable, and dispicable. However, the players of the preintegration days should, at least, be judged considering the times in which they were playing. I am old enough to know how much opinions have changed since then concerning racism….doesn’t make it right, but is a mitigating factor. (i.e., Raleigh department stores had seperate bathrooms and drinking fountains in the 50’s…no one would even consider such a thing now).
jfp
January 9th, 2013
4:13 pm
Shaun was playing well until you guys gave him a reason to argue. We all know how that ends. At least he’s not like Dentz. We don’t have to worry about arms coteol after a conversation with Shaun, just that it will be lengthy.
DAP
January 9th, 2013
4:16 pm
dale murphy compares favorably to hall of famers andre dawson and jim rice, and ill never understand why he didnt get voted in. not based on the character clause, either. based on his numbers, compared to those two. could it be a racial thing? or maybe because of where they played?
jfp
January 9th, 2013
4:17 pm
nolie, agreed about the blog working better, I’ve been able to post from my phone and that rarely happens
beekay
January 9th, 2013
4:18 pm
We need more Dale Murphy’s, Tim Tebow’s, and RG3’s in the sports world. Class acts that our children can look up to.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
4:18 pm
cheating is cheating, it is not any worse because one guy cheats better than another, it is the same thing. If there had been PEDS available easily in the 60s and 70s, the guys using speed would mostly have used PEDS.
as for how much it influenced results, the consensus is that most cheated therefor leveling the field at least some. pitchers did it too, not just hitters
Ithink at some point another decade down the road some of these guys like Bonds and Clemens will get in
raleighbravefan
January 9th, 2013
4:20 pm
Easy to say “cheating is cheating”…especially in (Shaun’s) “black and white” world. There are always gray areas and degrees. Everyone makes their own judgement.
Do you break the speed limit?
Do you park in a no parking zone?
Do you tell 100% truth on your tax return?
Every stolen? Ever lied?
Ever kill anyone?….what if it was in an act of war?
Are current baseball cheaters better than, worse than, or equal to past “cheaters? judgement call.
Disgusted
January 9th, 2013
4:22 pm
Dale Murphy was hurt by his fall off after 1987 — there is no other reaonable explanation.
It dropped his batting average and OBP. After 87, he had a career avg of .279. The drop off dropped it by 14 points. And that was pretty much in a 4 yr stretch from 88 to 91 — don’t bother counting 92 and 93 when he hardly played.
Not sure what the OBP was up to 87.
That he did not get many chances in post season hurt too. Though as for where he played — he was on the National network nationwide during his prime so the exposure was there.
Disgusted
January 9th, 2013
4:24 pm
We need more Dale Murphy’s, Tim Tebow’s, and RG3’s in the sports world. Class acts that our children can look up to.
I agree with Murph and RG III. I sure hope RG III gets healthy and right for next yr.
I wish Tebow was a better player. But you are right about them being class acts.
jfp
January 9th, 2013
4:24 pm
Bonds and Clemens probably should get in, but they should and will have to wait.
DS1
January 9th, 2013
4:24 pm
I think if Murph would have hung em up 2 years earlier, he’d have made it into the Hall. Both Dawson and Rice had 2-3 declining years, but not to the degree of Murphy’s numbers.
Too bad, as if I were going to start a team with a 25 year old Murph, Rice or Dawson; I’d hand’s down choose Murph. Much better all around player.
raleighbravefan
January 9th, 2013
4:24 pm
Bonds and Clemens are different than most of the others for this reason…they both would have been in the HOF without the cheating. Doesn’t mean that they should…or shouldn’t get in. Just adds another wrinkle. I probably wouldn’t vote for either, but then I never liked them much. That influences my opinion somewhat.
RC
January 9th, 2013
4:26 pm
OJ was a great football player… do you think he’d get elected to any HoF if he came up for a vote today?
Probably. He didn’t cheat “between the lines” (or something like that)
I’ve really got one question at this point: Do they still have a ceremony? I’ve got to think that the living HOF members who travel to the induction each year kind of enjoy it, and it’s a great time to catch up with their old contemporaries. With no inductees, will they just have a HOF weekend with none of the other stuff? Or do those old guys have to spend the weekend at home with nothing to do? What about all the hotel rooms and flights that now have to be cancelled? Stinks for the city of Cooperstown, since I’m sure a major part of their economy is based around that weekend.
(I realize that was like 10 questions, but they all derive from the original)
nolie
January 9th, 2013
4:26 pm
crimes are not the same as cheating, og course there is hierarchy of crimes , but the moral stand is about cheating. Having seen what went on in baseball in the 70s and 80s with what was then available, the onliest difference is that what they used was not yet as effective, and if better drugs were available they would have been used. just plain human nature.
DS1
January 9th, 2013
4:30 pm
nolie
I’d love to think that if I were a talented athlete, I would have had the courage to not cheat. But I can’t say for a certainty that if put in that situation I’d have done the same as many players.
Narrow is the path, and straight is the way, of which few of us can navigate! We all be sinners in some way or another!
Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
4:33 pm
nolie -cheating is cheating, it is not any worse because one guy cheats better than another, it is the same thing.
This makes sense. However, while the intent is the same, it appears that one form of cheating (PEDS) arguably might have led to crazier stat lines from the players than other forms (amphetamines, etc.). I mean, consider all of the 60+ home run seasons before the 1998 season verses after. By way of an imperfect analogy, one receives a stiffer sentence if they intend to murder and carry it out verses someone who attempts murder but somehow fails. Same intent, different results, different penalties.
My post is either food for thought or mindless drivel. You decide.
RC
January 9th, 2013
4:33 pm
Bonds and Clemens probably should get in, but they should and will have to wait.
I honestly can see either side of the argument, whether you think they should or shouldn’t get in. But I fail to see any logic in the “make them wait” stance. To me someone either is a HOF player or they aren’t. Period. By the time they come up for election, their playing careers have been over for 5 years, and they aren’t adding to or subtracting from their on-field accomplishments. I guess the argument would be that you are “punishing” a player by not letting them in right away, but aside from being petty, that takes away from the value of the Hall itself. If the player’s accomplishments mean he deserves to be in, put him in. If they don’t, keep him out. Pretty simple. (Admittedly, the standards by which voters can measure accomplishments vary wildly, but that’s a separate argument that doesn’t need to be addressed for my point.)
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
4:34 pm
Shaun, you expect consistency in a world full of inconsistencies? Ain’t happening in this life. But that doesn’t mean we stop striving to do the right and just thing.
As a Texas highway patrol officer once told me in response to why I was pulled over when other drivers were exceeding the speed limit worse than I: “You’re the one that got caught, son.”
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
4:37 pm
I can take it seriously if the voters keep a guy out because they believe he wouldn’t have been a Hall of Famer without PED’s. I can’t take the Hall seriously if the voters are going to decide that certain preposterous acts, which may not actually be any more preposterous than others, are alone enough to keep a player out.
See my 4:34 pm comments, Shaun.
raleighbravefan
January 9th, 2013
4:38 pm
jfp – Never understood about making someone wait. If deserv to get in, they always deserve to get in. If not, then no.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
4:40 pm
But I fail to see any logic in the “make them wait” stance. To me someone either is a HOF player or they aren’t. Period.
From my understanding, the ballot try a player makes, holds significance with the players. First ballot players are an elite group within an elite group and so on. So, the “make them wait” makes sense to me if take issue with the PED but still think they should be in the hall.
TennBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
4:42 pm
I was looking over the HOF final ballot and the votes that the players received, and it really amazes me. The reason is that I have watched lots of baseball, and feel that I am a fairly good evaluator of talent. At no point in my life, of watching as much baseball as I possibly can, did I ever think that Jack Morris, Edgar Martinez, Alan Trammel, Tim Raines, or Curt Schilling would receive more HOF votes on the same ballot than Dale Murphy. I know with at least the pitchers its like comparing apples to oranges, but in my opinion none of those men left a legacy among baseball’s youth like Murphy did.
Murph
January 9th, 2013
4:43 pm
jfp – Never understood about making someone wait. If deserv to get in, they always deserve to get in. If not, then no.
Yeah, the idea of appearing on a ballot 15 times seems crazy. Even Bob Dole and Al Gore eventually got the hint that they’d never get elected and stopped running.
RC
January 9th, 2013
4:43 pm
This makes sense. However, while the intent is the same, it appears that one form of cheating (PEDS) arguably might have led to crazier stat lines from the players than other forms (amphetamines, etc.). I mean, consider all of the 60+ home run seasons before the 1998 season verses after.
I don’t know if it led to “crazier” stat lines, maybe just more noticeable. Look at some of the SB totals from the 70’s and 80’s. Nobody comes close to those today. It could just be changes in the way the game was played.
Another interesting idea is that baseballs from the mid-90’s were actually constructed differently than they had been previously, making them “juiced” so the speak. There is tons of research on this on the internet, some which is “conclusive” in saying they were, some which is “conclusive” in saying they weren’t. The answer probably lies somewhere in between, but it is worth noting that correlation does not necessarily equal causation.
Here’s one of the articles about the possibility of “juiced” balls that I found interesting:
http://deadspin.com/5937432/was-mlbs-juiced-era-actually-a-juiced+ball-era
Murph
January 9th, 2013
4:48 pm
I don’t know if it led to “crazier” stat lines, maybe just more noticeable. Look at some of the SB totals from the 70’s and 80’s. Nobody comes close to those today.
I think “speed” is just the street name… I don’t think it actually increases your physical velocity when running.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
4:48 pm
much “cheating” has actually been sanctioned by MLB to some extent, including the juiced ball era which certainly led to altered stats too, and they jumped on the Sosa/Mac bandwagon and hyped it all to hell, and there is no way that many in baseball officialdom were unaware of PEDS use
raleighbravefan
January 9th, 2013
4:50 pm
nolie – Crimes are not the same a s cheating. Fair enough. And cheating is cheating. Maybe fair enough. Again, everyone must decide for themselves what the guideline is.
Is one “indiscretion” equal to many? Could be. The results may vary.
If a WW II soldier celebrates “too much” in Paris after a lengthy time in combat, and in the excitement of the liberation…well, is that the same as the guy who goes out looking for someone to cheat on his wife with?
Many examples can be made. Cheating is always wrong. Are there degrees…or at least, mitigating circumstances? Tough to say.
Bay Area Steve
January 9th, 2013
4:50 pm
No dog in the fight, but I don’t think whether players of yesteryear would’ve used (and I agree they would’ve) has any bearing on whether those who did should get in the HOF.
tom devine
January 9th, 2013
4:51 pm
Morse just became available at Nats. Would be great addition to left field.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
4:51 pm
it certainly increases your rteaction time which is a great deal of what baseball is all about Murph. It gives you a surge of energy and boosts your confidence which is another big part of playing well.
but sure PEDS are better, thus the reason the players switched to them when they became available
kinda like that day in the 60s when your pot supplier suddenly showed up with sugar cubes……
Puma
January 9th, 2013
4:52 pm
I think Jeff R’s points make sense – if you are looking for consistency or a standard to measure all players, its not going to happen, nor can it happen. Its a flawed process, but also the only one that makes sense.
There are a lot of different opinions on what it takes to get into HOF and they are as polarizing as anything in politics. That’s why having a widespread vote makes the most sense, at least then the guys that do get it get in by a consensus, whether they are cheaters or not, and whether that cheating gave them HOF worthy stats or not.
With that said, how the hell did Biggio not get in?
nolie
January 9th, 2013
4:54 pm
except that there are already a bunch of those users in the Hall Steve, seems unfair to all of a sudden say no more, especially considering the way that baseball behaved the first years of its extended use. They made millions of extra dollars prolly because of it
RC
January 9th, 2013
4:55 pm
Morse just became available at Nats. Would be great addition to left field.
And the Nats know that. Which is why they’d rather trade him to a team that isn’t their top competition in the division.
raleighbravefan
January 9th, 2013
4:55 pm
nolie – No question, at least in my mind, that Selig and his cronies ignored the PED problem, and reveled in the resulting home run derby. I will never have any respect for him.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
4:55 pm
With that said, how the hell did Biggio not get in?…puma
absofreakinlutely no idea
RC
January 9th, 2013
4:57 pm
nolie – No question, at least in my mind, that Selig and his cronies ignored the PED problem, and reveled in the resulting home run derby. I will never have any respect for him.
I’ll respect them as soon as they give us all back our money for tickets bought during those “tainted” seasons
raleighbravefan
January 9th, 2013
4:59 pm
Bottom line is, voters use their own subjective opinions, when deciding who to vote in…And we each use our own subjective opinions, when judging those choices. Only alternative is to (God forbid) just start using advanced metrics to make the choices. I pray that day never comes.
raleighbravefan
January 9th, 2013
5:01 pm
No rational explaination for snubbing Biggio. Period.
RC
January 9th, 2013
5:06 pm
With that said, how the hell did Biggio not get in?…puma
That’s simple. He used magic to boost his numbers. While magic isn’t explicitly prohibited by the rules, it certainly goes against the spirit of the game. He took playing time from more deserving players who weren’t born to leprechaun parents and granted the gift of eternal boyhood by their fairy godmothers. There’s not other logical explanation. I mean, look at a picture of Biggio from 20 years ago, and look at a picture of him now. His head hasn’t grown AT ALL! He still wears a size 4 3/4 hat! All of us put on a few extra pounds as we age, add a few wrinkles, pick up a grey hair here and there. Biggio still looks like he’s getting ready to go pick up his date for the prom. No way is that natural. And since science has yet to unlock the secrets of aging, magic is the only answer.
njbraves
January 9th, 2013
5:07 pm
Biggio is a classic example of a compiler. How many legit HOF seasons did he have? I’m sure he’ll eventually get in, and that’s fine, but I don’t feel he was one of the greatest baseball players of all time.
kenhotlanta
January 9th, 2013
5:10 pm
raleighbravefan: Rich’s Department store in downtown ATL had separate bathrooms and water fountains until the mid 60’s and separate eating areas and employee breakrooms until 1968. And prolly many other stores and businesses, too, FWIW.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
5:12 pm
I think we might have seen the fact that a certain number of voters just did not quite see Biggio as a first ballot HOFer. kinda like Larkin, after a coupla years he get in with a pretty big margin, same likely for Biggio I guess. Most prolly see him as a HOFer, but some do not want to proclaim him as a member of that “elite of the elite” group mentioned above
what this migh do though ans reach across time and slow some other desering players getting in. we are beginning a time when a lot of no-brainer HOF guys are getting on the ballot, Maddux,Glav,Johnson, Chips on top of some guys like Bags and Bigg and Piazza and maybe Rains etc.
since the writers are not known for voting in a buncha guys in the same year, some of these guys will take longer and perhaps one or two might not get in whowould have made it in slower times. just a thought
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
5:16 pm
No rational explaination for snubbing Biggio. Period.
Well, clearly he used steroid because he played with Jeff Bagwell, and therefore doesn’t deserve induction (sarcasm).
The voters are all too comfortable making moral judgements about steroid use rather than do what they have historically done and just vote on players based on whether they thought they were the top players in the eras in which they played. I have no problem with voters factoring in PED use and keeping a player out if PEDs probably made him a Hall of Famer. All of the sudden a factor in the Hall of Fame voting is the morality of cheating, and I feel uncomfortable with a group of people judging morality, specifically when they aren’t consistent in terms of which forms of cheating are okay and which are not. I do not feel comfortable saying Gaylord Perry’s form of cheating was better or worse or more moral or less moral than Barry Bonds’s form of cheating.
Puma
January 9th, 2013
5:16 pm
njbraves – Biggio compiler – I guess you just proved the point that HOF selection is a subjective process where even the most deserving candidates can be seen by some as undeserving, despite the fact that if you look at his numbers objectively, and in historical context, he is a no brainer.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
5:16 pm
I think Bill James claims that Biggio was one of the 50 best of all time and the recent ESPN top 100 of all time ranked him 90th. He was strong at three positions , not sure I would call him just a compiler
njbraves
January 9th, 2013
5:21 pm
Puma…how is Biggio a no brainer? Because he has 3000 hits? Was he ever one of the 5 or so best players in baseball at any point in his career? I doubt it. Like I said, he’ll eventually get in and I understand why, but he’s far from a no brainer. Greg Maddux is a no brainer.
RC
January 9th, 2013
5:22 pm
He was strong at three positions , not sure I would call him just a compiler
What about a conjurer? That little elf was hit by pitches 285 times in his career, just 2 short of career leader Hughie Jennings. Your telling me a guy who’s 5′11″, 185 pounds (wow, those are seriously his listed numbers?) can take that kind of abuse and still be walking around without some “extra help” in the way of a magic protection spell or two? I don’t buy it for a second.
Oh, and Hughie Jennings? He’s DEAD. THAT’S what happens to a “normal” person hit by that many pitches! (and who was born in 1869)
nolie
January 9th, 2013
5:24 pm
I definitely think Biggio is a no brainer, I have no doubt he will get in and prolly pretty soon.
I Had To Say It
January 9th, 2013
5:24 pm
I love Dale Murphy and loved to watch him play in CF . I wish my kids could have seen him play and emulate his off the field persona as well.
His career numbers just don’t merit a HOF induction. As for Jim Rice, his career numbers were far and away better than Murph’s. Poor Murph played on some absolutely horrendous Braves’ teams which did him no favor, many times in front of mostly empty seats at old Atlanta Fulton County stadium. Murph was the primary reason I went to those awful games.
Disgusted’s summary above says it all.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
5:25 pm
who was it that claimed that Biggio got hit so often because he couldn’t get out of the way? Was that the Murphster?
DS1
January 9th, 2013
5:26 pm
We need a couple more “compilers” for our team………..
Puma
January 9th, 2013
5:27 pm
njbraves – look at his numbers throughout the 1990’s. I would say that between 1994 – 1999 he was one of the top 10 players in the league.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
5:28 pm
I don’t think empty stadiums had anything to do with his lack of votes, he was on TBS across the entire nation every night, I doubt there was a better known player in the 80s
He is my second all time fave Brave, but I would not vote for him I’m afraid
nolie
January 9th, 2013
5:33 pm
I’ll take a young Dave Winfield too DS1, another claimed to be just a compiler
brian
January 9th, 2013
5:38 pm
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/eye-on-baseball/21527445/murphy-lofton-williams-headline-those-falling-off-hall-of-fame-ballot
brian
January 9th, 2013
5:38 pm
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/eye-on-baseball/21527445/murphy-lofton-williams-headline-those-falling-off-hall-of-fame-ballot
njbraves
January 9th, 2013
5:38 pm
.281/.363/.483….Sorry, not a no brainer HOF guy to me. The guy had a heck of a career, but he wasn’t a dominate player.
CB
January 9th, 2013
5:40 pm
Dare we hope this blog is actually fixed?
Murph
January 9th, 2013
5:40 pm
who was it that claimed that Biggio got hit so often because he couldn’t get out of the way? Was that the Murphster?
No, I claimed that getting hit shouldn’t be a stat that works in the hitter’s favor as far as his slash line is concerned.
Being too stupid to duck is not a skill.
njbraves
January 9th, 2013
5:44 pm
Who would you rather have for 15-20 years… Fred McGriff or Biggio? To me McGriff is the easy choice and he’ll never get in the HOF. So Biggio is a HOFer because he had more base hits? Ridiculous.
njbraves
January 9th, 2013
5:44 pm
Who would you rather have for 15-20 years… Fred McGriff or Biggio? To me McGriff is the easy choice and he’ll never get in the HOF. So Biggio is a HOFer because he had more base hits? Ridiculous.
keyLargo.
January 9th, 2013
5:44 pm
SSDD with this blog.
keyLargo.
January 9th, 2013
5:44 pm
SSDD with this blog.
Shaun
January 9th, 2013
5:52 pm
njbraves, Biggio. The fact that Biggio provided that kind of offense at secondbase is a big deal. But McGriff wouldn’t be a horrible selection for the Hall, by any means.
Reality Check
January 9th, 2013
5:53 pm
” doubt there was a better known player in the 80s” – nolie
Nolie, you must not have watched too much baseball in the 80s other than games shown on TBS
There’s a laundry list of 80s players now in the HOF who were better known than Dale Murphy. Yeah, Murph was big in Atlanta and the southeast, and had somewhat of a national following on TBS, but not everybody had cable TV in the 80s and few wanted to watch losing baseball every night. It was rare for the Braves to be on Saturday afternoon (NBC) or Monday Night Baseball on ABC for a national telecast.
The 90s are different story.
brian
January 9th, 2013
5:53 pm
I agree Jeff R.
You cannot use bad behavior to justify other examples of bad behavior
ChattTownBrian
January 9th, 2013
5:57 pm
I think JHey will put up better numbers across the board than the projections listed in this blog. I would day Upton and Uggla’s numbers are probably close to right. I would give Prado a few more homeruns than 11 and I doubt Simmons will hit .290 and OBP .350. From what I’ve seen he’s a pretty wild hacker and I don’t see that improving over an offseason.
Medlen is good, but imo not 2.94 ERA over a full season as a SP, good.
Got to give Minor more credit than 11-10, 3.76. The W/L record might not be far off, but he improved enough in my eyes last year that I can see him having an ERA in the 3.4 range. He will be a standout for the Braves this season.
Mikega1965
January 9th, 2013
5:57 pm
Evan Gattis Links
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo6P4JyYcyU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gABm2sAh2go
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
6:00 pm
I do not feel comfortable saying Gaylord Perry’s form of cheating was better or worse or more moral or less moral than Barry Bonds’s form of cheating.
I do. Perry altered the ball not his body, and the effect of altering one’s body through PEDs more greatly influences performance than throwing spitters. Perry’s annual numbers, though mostly solid to outstanding, were never off the charts like Bond’s numbers.
And not incidentally, when Perry was caught throwing spitters, he was tossed from games (and, I think, fined). Was the penalty sufficient for repeated offenses? No, I don’t think so. Suspensions and stiff fines might have better worked with Perry.
ChattTownBrian
January 9th, 2013
6:06 pm
I’m a little worried about our starting pitching for this year. I know Medlen will be good and I mentioned Minor, but Hudson is another year older and his health seems to be in question every year the last few. Maholm is just a 5 guy that eats innings and gives up a lot of homeruns. Teheran and Delgado you just don’t know. Safe to say that I think Beachy will be very welcomed back in July, or whenever he’s supposed to return.
brian
January 9th, 2013
6:06 pm
CTB – even if the projections are accurate, we look pretty good in our lineup and rotation. Still need to decide LF though
ChattTownBrian
January 9th, 2013
6:19 pm
brian, I’m not worried about our lineup even if they decide to go with Gattis and Constanza for LF. The rotation had me thinking a little worried.
No. 1 Braves Fan
January 9th, 2013
6:26 pm
I graduated from pharmacy school with a BS in1963 and was licensed in that year. I held a valid licence until 2010. I legally dispensed both amphetamines and anabolic (tissue building) steriods routinely during the years I was actively practicing in retail pharmacy. The availability of both classes of drugs via prescribing physicians was
never questioned unless a given prescriber was determined to be abusing his/her
license to dispense these drugs by the authorities. My point is fter they were deemed to be illegal for use by the sports world, they were and still are legal for the general public as long as they are obtained with a valid prescription from a licensed physician.
However, the number of prescriptions written for amphetamines today is negliable compared to the amount that were prescribed in the 1960-1990 period because of abuse and misuse.
ncgary
January 9th, 2013
6:34 pm
my bags are packed and i’m ready to leave
my doctor gave me good news today said sahe still thinks i have a yeagr before i will have to make the trachotomy choice.
sure hope shes right……..lol
well lets all go to narlins then the carribean
chipl1960
January 9th, 2013
6:44 pm
good news gary. Have a great trip and enjoy your family. Keep the positive attitude. It goes along way and is as valuable as medicene itself.
raleighbravefan
January 9th, 2013
6:46 pm
Biggio was a 7 time allstar, and excelled at 3 positions, in addition to being a great hitter. Also great intangibles.
BTW, I am pretty sure Gaylord was only kicked out of 1 game, and that late in his career.
Nowhere man
January 9th, 2013
7:03 pm
Good news ncgary. Keep on rolling. Have a great trip.
Billy Walsh
January 9th, 2013
7:05 pm
I wouldn’t call Biggio a great hitter nor do I think he is hall worthy. Hitting 300 4 times and being a career 280 hitter is solid but not great. I understand that he has 3000 hits but I don’t think that should be the end all argument on why a guy should be put in the hall.
Billy Walsh
January 9th, 2013
7:05 pm
I wouldn’t call Biggio a great hitter nor do I think he is hall worthy. Hitting 300 4 times and being a career 280 hitter is solid but not great. I understand that he has 3000 hits but I don’t think that should be the end all argument on why a guy should be put in the hall.
Brava
January 9th, 2013
7:05 pm
ncgary, have a wonderful trip!
nolie
January 9th, 2013
7:09 pm
Who would you rather have for 15-20 years… Fred McGriff or Biggio?
Biggio
nolie
January 9th, 2013
7:10 pm
I was in baseball in some of the 80s and I totally disagree that there were a lot of better known players. TBS was by far the largest baseball venue in America during that time.
Skeezix
January 9th, 2013
7:11 pm
Growing up, I and my siblings were told by my mother, grandmother and her siblings that we were part Indian. The best estimates would make me around 1/16th Indian (one of the N.Carolina tribes). My youngest sister has done a lot of family genealogy research and says that it is hard to prove because birth records back in my American Indian great grandmother’s era were poor at best, non-existent or not archived. But the oral history back to my grandmother, her siblings, children, etc. was very strong and consistent. You only had to look at my grandmother to know she was part Indian. So I firmly believe that I am part Indian. Given that, this lifelong Braves fans is not offended by the Indian logo – or even Chief Knockahoma. I definitely prefer the Indian smiling as to snarling.
Zing
January 9th, 2013
7:13 pm
I’m going to first say that discussions about who deserves to be in the HoF, unless they involve someone like Babe Ruth, generally devolve into pointless drivel. Adding the PEDs issue just muddies the drivel more.
And now my own contribution: I think it’s funny how some voters will talk about “first-ballot HoFers” when making their choices. I mean, if you’d vote for the guy, then vote for him. If that player makes it on the “first ballot,” then that will be self-acting. There’s no category for “really super-duper HoFers.” (Maybe there should be – feel free to petition Cooperstown).
Skeezix
January 9th, 2013
7:14 pm
Oh yeah, I’d love to see Bourn back. Both Upton and Bourn in the outfield would definitely get me excited about this season.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
7:17 pm
obviously there is just such an unofficial category, which is why many voters vote the way that they do
Skeezix
January 9th, 2013
7:24 pm
Re: Amphetamines. Planning to stay up all night for final exams, I took one pill once in college (too many years ago). I believe it was called a black beauty. I don’t know how people can take that stuff. In the middle of taking one of my exams the next day, my mind went blank. My heart raced and I didn’t sleep for two days.
………..I went back to just drinking coffee after that.
Mark
January 9th, 2013
7:26 pm
Congrats to the voters for doing a good job. Got it right this time.
George_George
January 9th, 2013
7:27 pm
I just read a story on Yahoo news [ they are very liberal ] that the mayor wants the WASHINGTON REDSKINS to change thier name. What in the world is the world comming to? The REDSKINS have had that name for a long time. I don’t believe the native americans are that senitive.
Dewayne
January 9th, 2013
7:30 pm
If you can get Bourn for a decent price, you get him. I think he understand that not many teams are interested in his agent an/or asking price. No way Justin Upton comes to the Braves. Kevin Towers always ask for some crazy amount of players for one player.
old man
January 9th, 2013
7:30 pm
TOBF-
Where is the stat showing BJ losing “5-10″ runs per year on defense?
Mixxo
January 9th, 2013
7:33 pm
Re: Amphetamines. Planning to stay up all night for final exams, I took one pill once in college (too many years ago). I believe it was called a black beauty. I don’t know how people can take that stuff. In the middle of taking one of my exams the next day, my mind went blank. My heart raced and I didn’t sleep for two days.
………..I went back to just drinking coffee after that.
^^^
Lightweight!
bb4040
January 9th, 2013
7:35 pm
J Upton for A Simmons… in a heartbeat! when did Simmons who couldn’t make the team out of camp last year become worthy of an Upton comp? Come on people whata re you smoking??? At 25 years this Upton will be a stud for years.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
7:35 pm
2010 TB -19 33
2011 TB -7 31
2012 TB -4 24
Runs Saved BJ Upton, number and ranking
http://www.billjamesonline.com/stats/fielding_bible_runs_saved/?PlayerId=5015
Dewayne
January 9th, 2013
7:36 pm
NO way Kevin Towers does that trade for J. Upton, he will want some top prospects along with Simmons.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
7:37 pm
not many gonna agree with you there 4040
old man
January 9th, 2013
7:39 pm
Bourn made 6.8M last year.
What would it take to get him on a one year deal, assuming he gets a tad desperate? 12M?
Mark
January 9th, 2013
7:40 pm
Pass the dunce hat. Someone else suggesting that we trade a once or twice in a lifetime SS for an athletic, little above average OFer.
SSs are much harder to come by, especially elite ones like Simmons, than OFers.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
7:43 pm
voters should be c
astratedhastizedbb4040
January 9th, 2013
7:47 pm
I know Wren thinks simmons is elite. Thats the problem. He’s a nice player. Upton will be great. Give them Simmons and one of those stud “can’t miss” pitchers.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
7:48 pm
Upton is NOT great away from home, he is mediocre
Mark
January 9th, 2013
7:53 pm
4040
Hes better than the brother we got for sure but no way you ship Simmons for him.
But, I wouldn’t swap Simmons for Strasburg straight up either because pitchers and OFers are out there to be had. Great SSs are not.
Mr Maggot
January 9th, 2013
7:55 pm
Shaun: All this is about writers taking a stand to feel good about themselves. If they thought about it, they would realize this is the first time in history that voters have been concerned with the bastardization of baseball, eroding fairness, etc.
Good points. I get a kick out of the outrage here by self-righteous voters and writers. The problem with this mess is a bunch of writers and voters have somehow become experts on deciding who did/didn’t use performance enhancers. Empty statements like “clean on and off the field ‘ attached to some players…….exactly how did we conclude this? It’s odd how smart these folks think they are and much of what they believe may/may not have a shread of truth attached to it. We clamor for Biggio to get in, but how have we concluded that he’s clean? Gaylord Perry’s cheating was fun trying to catch him and he’s in the hall. What a farce.
Dewayne
January 9th, 2013
7:58 pm
I believe 12m is too much for one year when he dropped off the second part of the season. Maybe 8-10m would be more like it if that.
Mr Maggot
January 9th, 2013
7:59 pm
Mark: Pass the dunce hat. Someone else suggesting that we trade a once or twice in a lifetime SS for an athletic, little above average OFer. SSs are much harder to come by, especially elite ones like Simmons, than OFers.
Yes, Simmons is elite and you don’t give him up. Ozzie Smith was a Card’s foundation for more than a decade and SImmon’s looks to have the potential to have the same level of impact.
Mr Maggot
January 9th, 2013
7:59 pm
Mark: Pass the dunce hat. Someone else suggesting that we trade a once or twice in a lifetime SS for an athletic, little above average OFer. SSs are much harder to come by, especially elite ones like Simmons, than OFers.
Yes, Simmons is elite and you don’t give him up. Ozzie Smith was a Card’s foundation for more than a decade and SImmon’s looks to have the potential to have the same level of impact.
JC Brave
January 9th, 2013
8:04 pm
Bourn getting 12 million after declining a 13.3 million qualifying offer from the Braves?
It won’t happen.. but that would certainly be hilarious.
SoWeGa Fanatic
January 9th, 2013
8:04 pm
Anyone who thinks Biggio is not HOF worthy hasn’t looked at his stats very well. He averaged 174 hits a year, led the league in doubles and runs scored several years. Tho not a homer hitter, he still averaged 17 a year. 7 time AS, 4 or 5 GG’s. MVP votes 4-5 times. Yeah, I’d take him.
Mark
January 9th, 2013
8:06 pm
Mr. Maggot
Yeah. Really looking forward to watching him play a few years! Special player!!
SoWeGa Fanatic
January 9th, 2013
8:08 pm
Simmons isn’t going anywhere. It’s ludicrous to think of trading Simmons and anyone for Upton, much less your projected starting pitchers for the next number of years.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
8:08 pm
hey there wee a lot here who swore Larkin would not get in too
Mr Maggot
January 9th, 2013
8:09 pm
“Given that, this lifelong Braves fans is not offended by the Indian logo – or even Chief Knockahoma. I definitely prefer the Indian smiling as to snarling.”
Well it’s settled. Somebody else is 1/196th [rumor has it] Native American and exclaimed that laughing Indian heads are not offensive. Now we can move on.
DS1
January 9th, 2013
8:09 pm
Hard to imagine that the Padres once traded Ozzie Smith, isn’t it! Us dealing Simmons could be a similar scenario.
But if I could get Andrew McCutchen, I’d do that deal in a heartbeat.
DS1
January 9th, 2013
8:10 pm
no way do I deal him for Upton. Headley, maybe.
DS1
January 9th, 2013
8:12 pm
Can we quit talking about logos and Hall of Fame? How bout dem Braves!
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
8:12 pm
Biggio should get in soon… not a 1st ballot guy though
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
8:15 pm
ChattTownBrian
January 9th, 2013
6:06 pm
I’m a little worried about our starting pitching for this year. I know Medlen will be good and I mentioned Minor, but Hudson is another year older and his health seems to be in question every year the last few. Maholm is just a 5 guy that eats innings and gives up a lot of homeruns. Teheran and Delgado you just don’t know. Safe to say that I think Beachy will be very welcomed back in July, or whenever he’s supposed to return.
Yep… there was a good article on CAC I believe yesterday about the team…. if we go with the optimistic views on the rotation, which aren’t entirely wrong, we’re a 90+ win team. But there is always the more realistic view that the guys aren’t prime time yet and they struggle… if any part of the team does, it’ll start in the rotation. Just have to wait and see.
Mark
January 9th, 2013
8:15 pm
DS1
Early in his career I could see why someone would trade Ozzie because as great as he was defensively he wasn’t very good offensively. He worked at it and got much better though.
Also, when comparing Simmons with Ozzie I think you have to consider that both make unreal plays getting to balls but Simmons has a better arm and more upside offensively after 1 year, IMO
No way I’d trade him for Andrew Mc either.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
8:21 pm
old man- Nolie showed it to ya! I look at Rdrs…. Rtot too
. I understand that he has 3000 hits but I don’t think that should be the end all argument on why a guy should be put in the hall.
^^^^
Justin Upton is NOT great away from home, he is mediocre
Not much worse than his brother though…. and with regular time away from Chase, he’d probably improve. Potential just like his 3yr older brother, right?
Also I have read and learned that hitter’s away stats from Chase aren’t as worrisome as those from Coor’s; not much to read into them.
Mark
January 9th, 2013
8:22 pm
Would I vote Biggio into the HOF? NO
Would I swap Biggio for Uggla? YEP
VaBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
8:23 pm
Justin Upton would provide a better batting line than his brother BJ, I’d think. We just gave 75 million to a guy who has a 242 AVG and 316 OBP over the past 4 years…. Justin Upton would be a huge upgrade over what we have right now in my opinion. Even in Justin’s down years he’s maintained his OBP output. Even with his concerns about hitting away from Arizona I’d still want him. Great defender in a corner spot, only 25 years old with 3 years 39 million remaining on his contract which is a huge bargain… I mean Shane Victorino a bum was able to land the same deal in FA…
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
8:23 pm
old man- Nolie showed it to ya! I look at Rdrs…. Rtot too
. I understand that he has 3000 hits but I don’t think that should be the end all argument on why a guy should be put in the hall.
^^^^
Justin Upton is NOT great away from home, he is mediocre
Not much worse than his brother though…. and with regular time away from Chase, he’d probably improve. Potential just like his 3yr older brother, right?
Also I have read and learned that hitter’s away stats from Chase aren’t as worrisome as those from Coor’s; not much to read into them.
Ken Rosenthal @Ken_Rosenthal
Source: #Nationals GM Mike Rizzo is in Puerto Rico tonight watching Javier Vazquez pitch.
Ken Rosenthal @Ken_Rosenthal
And Vazquez’s manager, former major leaguer Alex Cora, just tweeted in Spanish that Vazquez threw 95 mph on his 83rd pitch
Uggh… watch the Nats get him for some great depth…. their A++ rotation. We should be in on this!!!!
nolie
January 9th, 2013
8:26 pm
I gotta admit that I fail to see how anybody could say that Biggio is not a HOFer, but he will be soon so ok
DS1
January 9th, 2013
8:26 pm
Mark
I’m hopeful that Simmons will be all that we are hoping for, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he turns into just an average hitter. But even at that, what do you expect from your all star defensive SS.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
8:28 pm
Justin Upton Road (which includes a lot of Petco, AT&T, and Chavez)- .250/.325/.406/.731
The BJ Upton of Recent- .242/.317/.436/.753
DS1
January 9th, 2013
8:29 pm
I’d love to have 25 Craig Biggio’s on my team. I’d definitely vote him in. When you go back and look at some of the guys who are in the Hall, no way should guys like Biggio and Murph be in the Hall. A 1 way player like Rice gets in?? The bar was lowered at that point.
DS1
January 9th, 2013
8:30 pm
Meant to say “no way should guys like Biggio and Murph NOT be in the Hall”
nolie
January 9th, 2013
8:31 pm
I like Justin better no doubt, guessing he would be an 800 hitter here, not good enough to give up what many here are willing to give
Mark
January 9th, 2013
8:31 pm
Remember when Piazza said he couldn’t call a grown man Chipper which led to the Larry Chants in NY and probably gave Chipper added motivation that led to his unreal stats in Shea.
Well, I’m not on Piazzas level, but I can’t call anyone BJ so I gotta go with his real name – Melvin!
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
8:33 pm
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/justin-upton-is-not-a-park-effect-mirage/
nolie
January 9th, 2013
8:33 pm
I think Rice was borderline, but better than Murph in his career
jrn
January 9th, 2013
8:35 pm
im glad bourn isnt coming back,a lead off hitter that strikes out 150+ times no thanks. would rather have c crisp for 2 years at 14 mil .bourn is overrated who ever signs him will regret giving him big money imo
Mark
January 9th, 2013
8:35 pm
Way to many get in the HOF imo.
Mark
January 9th, 2013
8:38 pm
Agree that Rice had better career than Murph but neither should be in HOF. Gaylord Perry was mentioned earlier in cheating discussion. He shouldn’t be in either
VaBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
8:39 pm
Craig Biggo is definitely a HOFer….
20 Year Career All with Astros
16th All Time in Games Played
2nd All Time Hit By Pitches
5 Silver Sluggers
7 Time All Star
4 Time Gold Glover
MVP Consideration 5 Times
3060 Hits (21st All Time)
668 Doubles (5th All Time)
nolie
January 9th, 2013
8:40 pm
For starters, home field advantage is a real thing, and most players hit better at home than they do on the road
true, but not over 200 points worth. even so it is his actual away numbers that worry me. the big split just calls your attention to it. Granted he would likely approve, but the NL East parks are not all that easy other than Phil. so I’m saying he brings that away OPS up by 50-70 points and hits around 800, bur he also at least so far has an off-again on-again history year by year
its all just trying to come up with a somewhat educated guess. he might get to a new situation here and blossom, nobody knows
DS1
January 9th, 2013
8:45 pm
I don’t know nolie, when you look at both guys overall numbers, Rice was only slightly better offensively. (OBP, OPS and OPS+)
But when you look at the home away splits for Rice, he was definitely a Fenway man.
And he wasn’t much to speak of defensively. And Murph played catcher when he came up.
Gotta say if I’m choosing one of them in their prime, I’d take the guy who can play in the field.
Mark
January 9th, 2013
8:46 pm
VaBraves
With all due respect do you think number of years played, number of games played, getting hit by pitchers when he wore the Bonds body armour all over his left arm or MVP considerations should have anything to do with whether someone is one of the greatest players to play.
VaBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
8:47 pm
Justin Upton is still only 25 years old. He’s been in the Major Leagues since he was 19 years old. I think he’s a player we’ll see get better and better. We havent seen the best of Justin yet… He might not be a Cornerstone Player, Team Leader type, but still he’s a really good young player. Probably the reason they wanna trade him… He isn’t a leader they want him to be. He’s produced a career 832 OPS, MVP Consideration twice, 2 All Stars, and a Silver Slugger all before 25 years old.. 20/20 Gold Glove Caliber Corner Outfielder only making 13 million a season for the next 3 years.
VaBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
8:50 pm
Gotta factor in the guy is a 2nd baseman as well. Position matters.
DS1
January 9th, 2013
8:50 pm
If you really dig into their career numbers, it’s eerie how close the two players were in numbers. Rice had the better average and a better slugging percentage, but they were really close in PA’s and most offensive categories. Murph was better at taking a walk, which compensated somewhat for his lower average.
Biggest difference is the drop off.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
8:53 pm
prolly the biggest difference as far as HOF consideration is the batting averages . Rice near 300 at a time when it was still considered one of the biggies, Murph 265ish, would be one of the lowest in the Hall and from an outfielder no less
only one who was less would be Killebrew and he had 570 or so homers back when they were all natural
Stanley
January 9th, 2013
8:58 pm
Have the Braves signed Bourn yet?
Lane Kiffin
January 9th, 2013
8:59 pm
DS1, Where is Venice Jim???
He hasn’t been seen except under other monikers since the Chief gave him that smack down on the previous blog.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
9:01 pm
I seriously doubt that VJ posted under other names, that is your trick Lame
ColoradoBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
9:03 pm
Braves Prospect JR Graham….. With GAttis behind the plate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lANpandGmlo
Lane Kiffin
January 9th, 2013
9:04 pm
Of course Nolie, members of the herd would never do such a thing.
Lane Kiffin
January 9th, 2013
9:06 pm
Just not the same without the teacher to correct all of us.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
9:06 pm
you’ll never really know that will you Lame, cause you will never be accepted among normal folks
Lane Kiffin
January 9th, 2013
9:07 pm
non herd members that is.
Lane Kiffin
January 9th, 2013
9:09 pm
If you consider yourself normal then……………
Lane Kiffin
January 9th, 2013
9:11 pm
It easy to spot a member of the herd. Even if the post has nothing to do with them. Case in point. They will run to defend the others.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
9:11 pm
as a mental health counselor I consider myself a hell of a lot more normal than you are troll
Mark
January 9th, 2013
9:13 pm
Lane
Baseball, occasionally football, but baseball mostly. Not yah yah yah
Lane Kiffin
January 9th, 2013
9:13 pm
You guys are behind. No one has called me Lentz, Dentz, Mixxo, Ace, George etc.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
9:15 pm
because you are likely many of them, don’t even bother to lie about not having posted here B4 under other names because nobody here will believe you
Lane Kiffin
January 9th, 2013
9:16 pm
Mental Health Counselor——now that’s the pot calling the kettle black.
I assume you don’t treat those who don’t ask??
Mark
January 9th, 2013
9:18 pm
Nolie
You are a mental health counselor?
Man, I bet you get some real interesting material and possible evaluations off the blog! I’m not a mental health counselor but I’ve thought more than once on the blog that some are a little off!
nolie
January 9th, 2013
9:18 pm
ask what?folks like you are often Baker Acted, so no not all ask
Lane Kiffin
January 9th, 2013
9:18 pm
Typical response by you Nolie. I didn’t say anything to or about you. Yet you feel the need to jump on accuse me of all kind of things.
That should serve you well in your Mental health career.
Lane Kiffin
January 9th, 2013
9:20 pm
Then you should sign your own 5150 and head on.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
9:20 pm
Lame showed up…. dang
Lane Kiffin
January 9th, 2013
9:23 pm
I am out of here for a while.
Not going to continue to give Nolie the attention he craves. Otherwise why would he engage someone about a subject that has nothing to do with him??
ChattTownBrian
January 9th, 2013
9:23 pm
Does anybody around here use a neti pot? The sinus cleaning thing shaped like a tea pot. Well I read online AFTER I used mine yesterday that you aren’t supposed to use regular tap water. Two people in Louisiana died from a brain eating parasite that was in their water. Now why couldn’t I have read this before I used the darn thing. Oh and symtoms don’t start until five days after that nasty parasite enters your sinus.
ChattTownBrian
January 9th, 2013
9:23 pm
Does anybody around here use a neti pot? The sinus cleaning thing shaped like a tea pot. Well I read online AFTER I used mine yesterday that you aren’t supposed to use regular tap water. Two people in Louisiana died from a brain eating parasite that was in their water. Now why couldn’t I have read this before I used the darn thing. Oh and symtoms don’t start until five days after that nasty parasite enters your sinus.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
9:23 pm
you are a troll, it is exactly what you are looking for Lame, I simply take pity on you at times and feed your need
nolie
January 9th, 2013
9:26 pm
right Brian, do NOT use tap water. use boiled and cooled water or buy distilled water. It can be deadly so why take a chance
Chop
January 9th, 2013
9:29 pm
Just give Simmons in the deal for Gods sake! !We would get the even better Upton and really have the city of Atlanta excited about this season. Im telling you, we will regret it later on if we don’t have the Upton brothers.
Mark
January 9th, 2013
9:31 pm
Lets see if they’ll swap brothers. Send Melvin
ColoradoBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
9:37 pm
Braves team is better with Simmons at SS and a ? in LF, than they would be with J. Upton in LF and a ? at SS.
ChattTownBrian
January 9th, 2013
9:42 pm
You’re right nolie and I boiled the water today when I used it. Got to admit I am worried some because we live near a lake and this nasty parasite lives in freshwater. They say you get stiff neck, vomiting, fever, seizures and then death a few days to a week after that. There is no known antibiotic that can kill this stuff.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
9:42 pm
I think so Colo, his runs saved numbers last season were incredible for as short a time as he played, if he hits at all his runs created numbers will be outstanding at SS. Nothing all that special about Justin away from ‘zona
DawgDad
January 9th, 2013
9:44 pm
Promising a position to a player is — stupid. . . . Simmons looked REAL good last year; he’s a player fans will pay to go see. . . . The Braves are going to strike out an awful lot this coming season. . . . The logo may be a dumb idea, but there’s nothing to be gained by NOT being offended. As far as I can tell the logo depicts a pre-20th century Indian warrior, and there aren’t ANY of them arround today to be offended. Tune out the self-serving noisemakers.
abeeeewright
January 9th, 2013
9:44 pm
CTB … the good news about the brain eating amoeba is that you’ll be dead pretty quick after symptoms start, so you won’t suffer … much.
Prolly best to boil water and refrigerate before use than to use tap water or well water.
Also, don’t go swimming in ponds. About 1-2 folks per year get their brains et that way.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
9:44 pm
that water is pretty much going up against your brain barrier, most anything harmful could cause osmote and cause trouble. Just be safe
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
9:46 pm
It’s much much harder to find a good SS, let alone one like Simmons than a good LF…. more good options/possibilities there.
Keep Simmons, at least for the next 5 years.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
9:47 pm
now that was just plain mean ABW
ChattTownBrian
January 9th, 2013
9:48 pm
I don’t know much about BJ at all, but I recall he’s a bit emotional. Could be a good thing or not so good I guess. Braves obviously see something in his style they liked to QUICKLY sign him to such a contract. They had to have been targeting him from the get go.
abeeeewright
January 9th, 2013
9:51 pm
It’s not been scientifically shown, but more people get their brains et by zombies than by amoebas (on average). This is skewed by the big zombie outbreaks followed by years of no zombies.
I agree with nolie. Boil water you’re going to push into your body, especially your nose. There’s a lot of stuff in water that would be bad for you if it got past your natural defensive barriers.
abeeeewright
January 9th, 2013
9:55 pm
nolie … I meant it nicely. If CTB is still with us a week from now, he’s in the clear. If not … well… at least it was quick.
BTW odds are ridiculously small that neti- ing with tap water, even in LA, will result in death. Same with swimming in ponds.
If I thought there was a serious danger I would not be so frivolous.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
9:57 pm
Brian is a bit of a hypochondriac and anxiety prone, I was teasing that you were playing with him
abeeeewright
January 9th, 2013
9:58 pm
BJ Upton will give me more fodder for my bad joke about Braves stranding runners at third base.
DS1
January 9th, 2013
10:04 pm
OK
Before we picked up BJ Upton, I was not a big fan. Nothing specific, but when you hear some of the stories it’s easy to just not care what a guy does on the field.
But now he’s OUR guy, and I am a big fan. Until he gives me a serious reason not to pull for him.
Kinda like something we used to say about Strom Thurmond. He might be an azzhole, but he’s OUR azzhole!
Mark
January 9th, 2013
10:06 pm
ChatTownBrian
think they liked Melvin because he strikes out 170 plus times per year and will fit in nicely. Since Chipper retired and Macs hurt the only guy we have left that makes consistent contact is Prado so they may plan to trade him and plug Francisco in at 3B and he’ll reach the 180 mark.
DS1
January 9th, 2013
10:06 pm
Who is this Lame Kiffen dude? Doesn’t he realize that if he’s isn’t with the “in” crowd, he ain’t shyt?
DS1
January 9th, 2013
10:08 pm
Mark
If guys K a lot, then they don’t get all worn out running down to first base.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
10:11 pm
Upton came up a bit short there…
Mark
January 9th, 2013
10:11 pm
DS1
Great point. We gotta keep them fresh!!
brian
January 9th, 2013
10:17 pm
Agree with ColoradoBravesfan…..Braves are a much better team with Simmons at SS and a lower option in LF than having Justin Upton in LF and and someone else at SS (no clue who that would be)
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
10:17 pm
think they liked Melvin because he strikes out 170 plus times per year and will fit in nicely.
Nothing better than adding a .310 OBP guy to the lineup, eh?
OBP is overrated….
nolie
January 9th, 2013
10:18 pm
right, I don’t give a paca’s patootie about Ks as long as the OBP is there
brian
January 9th, 2013
10:21 pm
Simmons will not be traded this offseason.
There are only a few players out there that Simmons would be traded for in a package or alone.
Young defensive wizards at SS who can hit/have potential to hit do not grow on trees and Upton is not the caliber of player to get one in a trade.. Stanton yes, Upton no
abeeeewright
January 9th, 2013
10:21 pm
Isn’t BJ better than Constanza? Schafer?
Cherokee
January 9th, 2013
10:23 pm
Suck it Walt! I’m Cherokee and a huge Braves fan and I see it as an honor…
abeeeewright
January 9th, 2013
10:24 pm
I hate to say it, but OBP was up when TP was hitting coach.
TP and BJ. Now there’s a combination.
Mark
January 9th, 2013
10:25 pm
Mrlvin is better than any of our options prior to his signing but he is also much more expensive and if I remember correctly 20 million more than any other team was willing to pay.
DS1
January 9th, 2013
10:25 pm
abee
Can you imagine the blog eruption when Fredo gives Schafer a handful of starts and hits him leadoff in the spring???
DS1
January 9th, 2013
10:26 pm
OBP started dropping off when we dealt Yunel for A-Gon a couple of years back.
DS1
January 9th, 2013
10:27 pm
Melvin…………… I like it!
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
10:30 pm
Isn’t BJ better than Constanza? Schafer?
Marginally better than Georgie…. and in Schafer’s case, much better except for the juicy one of 2007-8.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
10:36 pm
blog seems some better today, maybe they got tired of all those angry quotes from members that I have been sending to feedback address for the last few days.
abeeeewright
January 9th, 2013
10:37 pm
DS1 … maybe not the blog eruption, but certainly the 10Paul eruption.
Venice Jim
January 9th, 2013
10:39 pm
Isn’t BJ better than Constanza? Schafer?
Marginally better than Georgie
Good to know that TOBF hasn’t stopped hating during my sabbatical…
nolie
January 9th, 2013
10:43 pm
Lame os gonna be sooo disappointed that he missed you tonight VJ ……
DS1
January 9th, 2013
10:45 pm
Abeeee
I’m thinking that it would be poetic justice if Schafer ended up this spring being the player we all thought he might be a few years back.
Probably won’t happen, but I’m pulling for the guy. If you want to rip kids for screwing up, I’d have to disown some of my kids.
Heading out folks. G’nite to all you regulars, and to all you folks not with the “in” crowd, why don’t you folks get a clue!
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
10:45 pm
welcome back
MikeInFL
January 9th, 2013
10:48 pm
Marginally better than Georgie
LOL, Upton was a 3.3 win player, 109 OPS+, in a bad year last season.
Too much focus on OBP on here. Yes, it’s part of the puzzle. But I look for the Braves’ SLG % to jump from a meak .389 last year to about .430 this year (Upton, healthy McCann, Uggla semi-rebound, no full-time Pastornicky or Janish, improvement from Heyward and Freeman.)
Put Gattis in LF, 8th spot, and if he can hold his own this will be a top-three offense.
cabravesfan
January 9th, 2013
10:50 pm
nolie-
VJ is off to work again
cabravesfan
January 9th, 2013
10:51 pm
and I’m sure his cyber “friend” will pop up to repeatedly post the same thing over and over
Mark
January 9th, 2013
10:51 pm
Mike
SLG % will go up some from last year. K numbers are going to increase significantly.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
10:53 pm
just some humor, since it’s well known that I’m not a fan of any of the 3!
SLG % will go up some from last year. K numbers are going to increase significantly.
This is Atlanta man…. both numbers will go the wrong way! Homers, XBH, and SLG down… same with avg. and OBP…. Ks will go UP!
nolie
January 9th, 2013
10:53 pm
there is no such thing as too much focus on OBP, it has the highest correlation with winning % of any stat, and I seriously doubt the team S% is gonna jump any where near 40 points this year
Simon
January 9th, 2013
11:00 pm
The Braves problems could be solved – a lead off hitter and a left fielder for little cash – if they just did one thing.
Do a Harry Walker/Matty Alou intervention with Schafer.
tell him to get a heavier bottleneck bat and beat down the ball. Slow his swing down and beat the damb ball into the ground.
If Shafer doesn’t do it – send him down till he sees the real world of who he is or release him.
Do the same with Constanza. AND get Constanza back switch hitting.
nolie
January 9th, 2013
11:01 pm
you can’t send Schafer down unless he clears waivers and then agrees to go there
MikeInFL
January 9th, 2013
11:04 pm
Upton K’s only slightly more than Bourn did last year.
Not gonna get into an OBP debate, Nolie. I know it’s significant. But I (and most baseball people, from all I’ve read) believe that BJ is a better overall hitter than he showed last year;
Can’t discount how bad BMac was last year with the shoulder; and what’s so overlooked, is that most of our team has not yet reached their prime.
Statistically, having Simmons in place of Janish/Pastornicky, and IF Gattis can hold down LF, not having Francisco/Constanza/Hinske getting regular AB’s will have a big effect.
There seems to be this tendency by some prominent posters to take last year’s numbers and project them to next year, and draw absolute conclusions. Last year’s stats are useful, I’m sure, but things very seldom stay the same from one year to the next when you’re dealing with young players.
If we can stay reasonably healthy, I look for a big offensive season.
Mark
January 9th, 2013
11:05 pm
I’m guessing Jordon would cleaqr waivers because there are D1 schools that wouldn’t pick him up.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
11:05 pm
he (Schafer) sees the real world of who he is
A guy who never OPSd higher than .688 (in 2011, in just 47 games, had a .633 w/ Atlanta through 42) outside of 2007-8, when he was probably on the juice.
Get Schafer and Constanza to just hit the ball into the ground and then let them be on our team? nah
nolie
January 9th, 2013
11:07 pm
But I (and most baseball people, from all I’ve read) believe that BJ is a better overall hitter than he showed last year;
you mean the last four years which have been very similar. and 40 points in one season is a huge increase in team S%.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
11:07 pm
you can’t send Schafer down unless he clears waivers and then agrees to go there
He should refuse and get released or whatever… maybe UF will take him. >.<
nolie
January 9th, 2013
11:09 pm
yeah he would likely clear, but you just can’t ignore that is what will have to occur
braveslover
January 9th, 2013
11:10 pm
Ok, we go into the season with our current roster. BAM…Prado gets hurt. Now we have no left fielder and are stuck with a lard who strikes out as much as Uggly. Thus we battle the Marlins for who will stay out of the basement.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
11:12 pm
Dang, that slugging increase has to rank up with RBF’s thought that this team could score 100 more runs next season… LOL
LOL, Upton was a 3.3 win player, 109 OPS+, in a bad year last season.
Been around there the last 3 season, 106, 114, 109 OPS+, 745, 759, 752 OPS… .242/.317/.436/.753 batting line, 4.1, 4.1, and 3.3 WAR the last 3 years. He’s not getting much better, staying about the same. And he was approaching his prime.
Maybe he gets better, but I can’t see him getting so good to be “premium”, like he was in 2007 when he had the insane .393 BABIP. Rootin’ for him though… kinda
nolie
January 9th, 2013
11:16 pm
you can never say never so we might as well hope they all have average or above years.
if that happens we will have a pretty decent offense
nolie
January 9th, 2013
11:19 pm
actually Mike, I kinda think BJ will improve some his first year
MikeInFL
January 9th, 2013
11:22 pm
Define “premium.” Per fangraphs, he was worth $15 mil last year. Seems like we’re in a pretty good spot with him.
I’ll stay in the blog minority and predict a good offensive season from BJ, and a big one from the Braves. Lots, lots of talent.
We shall see.
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
11:22 pm
Chop:
Just how are you related to the UPTON’s?
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
11:33 pm
SOUTH OF THE BORDER
DOMINICA
EASTERN BULLS
Lead-off CF JOSE CONSTANZA [.256 BA] 1-5, 1 R, 1 SO.
VENEZUELA
CARACAS LIONS
PH/CF JOSH KROEGER [.500 BA] 2-2, 1 R, 1 RBI [1].
LARA CARDINALS
No BRAVES played
ZULIA EAGLES
1B ERNESTO MEJIA [.316 BA] 0-3, 1 SO.
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
11:35 pm
The BRAVES will collaapse under the pressure applied by the NL east. They win 72 games max. NATS win 103 and beat the BRAVES head to head 14-4
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
11:36 pm
Schafer clears waivers because he’s been caught with the goods.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
11:37 pm
about .840 or higher OPS, 125 or higher OPS+….
…. is that too high a standard?
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
11:38 pm
EGIII undergoes massive reconstruct on his right knee. Probably misses half of the upcoming season. Doctors unsure if he will ever be the player he was before injury.
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
11:54 pm
Hello
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
11:56 pm
Enter your comments here
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
11:56 pm
98.6
ChattTownBrian
January 9th, 2013
11:56 pm
abeewright, ouch!!
nolie, anxiety is hereditary I think. Both parents sides have a history of it to my knowledge. Also, the thyroid imbalance is proven to cause anxiety to a degree. Some with an imabalance might never have an ounce of anxiety or depression, but the percentage I would guess has it. It’s a chemical thing, and I of course have the problem.
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
11:57 pm
We had a blog waiting……………
MikeInFL
January 9th, 2013
11:58 pm
No, that’s pretty reasonable.
Looks like 4 major league CF’s have met that over a 3 year period. Hamilton, Kemp, McCutcheon, Granderson. Don’t know that the Braves had the resources to obtain any of those guys. And at $15 mil, we’re not paying for an .840 OPS center fielder.
Thing about Upton….
If a guy OPS’s .780 in the minors, and then .750 for 4 years in the majors, yeah, you assume that’s what he is.
Upton OPS’d .844 in the minors; and .894/.784 in 2 major league seasons.
Since then, he has morphed from a pretty selective hitter to a free swinger, playing in a tough hitter’s park. I’m not suggesting he’s McCutcheon. I do think that a lot of his OBP and strikeout problems are the result of a failing approach. I think the Braves see a lot of talent, and have a good coaching staff to work with him. And, he will be surrounded by a bunch of sluggers, and may not feel the pressure to swing from the heels every time up.
Could be wrong. He might be a disaster. But even if he duplicates last year, that’s an improvement over Bourn’s 99 OPS+, and he’s every bit the base-stealer Bourn was.
richbrave
January 10th, 2013
12:00 am
No provocateur
BravesFanGary
January 10th, 2013
12:11 am
With Laroche re-signing in Washington it appears possible the Nats could move Morse. Do you guys think he could be a viable option for LF? If so what could it cost the Braves? and Would the Nats even trade within the division? He certainly would provide some POP. It may be far fetched but at least it’s not a re-hash of Upton, Bourn, etc, lol
David O'Brien
January 10th, 2013
12:12 am
Ernesto Mejia hit in hand by a pitch tonight in Venezuela, but X-rays negative (which is, of course, a positive)
nolie
January 10th, 2013
2:13 am
they got Morse for Ryan Langerhans
Ward
January 10th, 2013
2:16 am
Hello everyone! Still have Laringitus, and I hope to feel better in a couple of days. It sounds like, Wren, will go with Francisco, and Gattis, unless Towers calls, and offers a deal. Today every thing is quiet, and the longer this plays out the longer you won’t see any thing done until Spring Training, or just before season starts? That’s the way think we all read it! We have a long waiting process, and it’s possible we could still Justin Upton, because Wren, has said, He could trade some players next year to ease the pay roll. To pay for Justins contract. All, very interesting to me. I hope we can get Justin Upton, or we go with the platton?
Ward
January 10th, 2013
2:19 am
Sounds like Towers, is the one who likes to screw everyone in a trade. It can’t work out all the time. Hope Towers, goes down a little, and works out a fair trade, and hope he calls the Braves, or some thing.
Ward
January 10th, 2013
2:25 am
The way I see it is, he likes to over price everyone! Then when you don’t make a deal, he whines about it, and says you are the one who over values. Yeah, I get it!
nolie
January 10th, 2013
2:29 am
Then when you don’t make a deal, he whines about it, and says you are the one …ward
sounds like many of our resident troll
Ward
January 10th, 2013
2:29 am
Make Towers be the one to go down…..That’s just my take on all this….
Ward
January 10th, 2013
2:30 am
nolie – Agree, we do have a lot of trolls…..
nolie
January 10th, 2013
2:33 am
I think most of them are just one or two trolls with a whole lotta names ward
Ward
January 10th, 2013
2:34 am
nolie – Another good movie coming out > Gangster Squad, I heard great reviews on it!
Ward
January 10th, 2013
2:36 am
nolie – Oouch!!!!!!!!! Stung!!!!!! will laugh along….
Ward
January 10th, 2013
2:39 am
I go by one post, and always have, and don’t play those childish games.
nolie
January 10th, 2013
2:43 am
did you see Django Unchained yet ward??
Ward
January 10th, 2013
2:45 am
Have a good one my fellow friends……. and I’m calling it a night. nolie, be cool, and Peace my friends, and “Go!!!!!Braves!!!!!”
nolie
January 10th, 2013
2:45 am
it has a very high rating of 8.8 at InternetMovie DataBase which is the largest and most popular movie site on the web.
Ward
January 10th, 2013
2:48 am
Sorry, didn’t see your post! Django Uncahined, no not yet, but already know it will be good, and plan on buying it, and keeping the movie…. Have a good one buddy! Peace Out!, and Talk tomorrow, and “Go!!!!!Braves!!!!!” Gotta try, and get some sleep! This cold is not very fun at all……didn’t get much sleep at all the last few nights…..
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
5:45 am
Understandable Mike… hoping that he does improve, he’s ours now.
David O'Brien
January 10th, 2013
5:51 am
DOB
Do you think the writers were just making a statement that there would be no first ballot PED users but perhaps next year they will vote them into the HOF? — jmart1951
Nope. They’re not getting in anytime soon, not unless a lot of people view the issue a lot differently than they do now. And for that, I’m glad.
David O'Brien
January 10th, 2013
6:04 am
Let’s see, Rangers,Nats,Phillies,Orioles,Giants,Yankees,Angels,Dodgers don’t platoon outfielders. They are winners. Just keep letting Bobby Cox run things with platooning and 3rd place is guaranteed this year. — DOB’s BJ for BJ UPTON (Dec. 19)
Phillies likely to go with what they have, use platoon in left field (the Philadelphia Inquirer,Jan. 9): http://articles.philly.com/2013-01-09/sports/36239761_1_darin-ruf-john-mayberry-phillies-outfield
chipl1960
January 10th, 2013
6:26 am
Up early I see.The brightest among us are always early risers!! As I follow the hot stove season I find it fascinating how the GM’s are playing the waiting game with each other. It is a 30 team chess match. Much skill is required to succeed in such games which I believe escapes the average or casual fan.
chipl1960
January 10th, 2013
6:34 am
I wonder if Towers wants players already in the big leagues or would take a combo of AA or AAA blue chippers. I think his asking price is too high.I think he has lost much bargaining power by putting Upton out there for so long.
Bobo
January 10th, 2013
8:52 am
Typical non story–rehash of all the old–try doing some actual reporting sometime since you no longer have your boy chippy to write about now. That should free up about 80% of your time.
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
8:55 am
And, [Upton] will be surrounded by a bunch of sluggers, and may not feel the pressure to swing from the heels every time up.
Fredo will negate that pressure-free environment by hitting the guy 4. Since that’s probably the absolute worst lineup slot for Upton, I can practically guarantee that’s where he will hit.
Dadgum.....
January 10th, 2013
8:55 am
In reviewing the HOF voting, it appears the voters did a pretty good job overall. Biggio being the exception. Murph may have a shot with the Veterans committee and certainly Morris will get in via that route. I was surprised at how low a vote the juicers got. 36% does not bode well for their future induction. Sosa will never make it. Doubtful for Bonds. Clemens maybe. Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa affected more games than Shoeless Joe or Pete Rose. Put those guys in then come talk to me about the juicers.
Now back to the HOF voters. I applause the voters that decided to take the year off and not turn in a ballot or stop voting altogether. They kept the integrity of the vote in view. Certainly the vote is subjective in nature and quite honestly some should have their voting rights yanked. To wit: the voters who returned blank ballots. You see, that is plain wrong. That is making a mockery of a very high honor. Seeing you must have 10 years of experience as a baseball writer just to vote. Many out there would love to vote that may be more qualified to boot.
By sending in a blank ballot they are still counted against the percentage a player gets. So, that blank ballot is actually a vote against every player. Not sure how many ballots were cast but maybe those blanks cost Biggio a percentage point. Might not have made a difference but next year it might.
I will never get to vote for the HOF. Sure wish I could. Might even be as qualified as the majority who do. One thing is damn certain. I would recuse myself from the process before I returned a blank ballot.
Rock on…..Dale Murphy should be in the HOF right beside Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe.
Real Talk
January 10th, 2013
9:19 am
On the HOF voting argument, first if you used PED’s you dont get in, second if you think Joe Morgan is a HOF’er then Biggio is one as well, but if you think Ol’ Joe was overated then Biggio cant get in…they had almost identical lifetime numbers. Lastly, on the Braves I think they will make a move only if in spring it looks like Juan and Reed cant get the job done…Everyone have a great day!!
Robert ( chi-town)
January 10th, 2013
9:20 am
Ever since the one game loss to the Cards the talk has been to get an impact left fielder for this team! As time goes on, the typical Atlanta Braves front office has done nothing to improve the offense. Here we go again with feeling “really good” about the possibility of Francisco being the big power guy if he plays every day! And Frank feeling really content with a platoon of Johnson/Constanza/Gattis and Schafer! Oh brother, if this happens, I hope Braves fans are really content to finish at least ten games behinf the Washington Nats!
hebrews11
January 10th, 2013
9:23 am
Although it sounds unlikely, I’d sure love to see Mr. Bourne sporting a tomahawk across his chest next season. He’s definitely a valuable player but not worth a king’s ransom. Mr. Upton could learn left field, no problem. With J-hey that sets up as nice outfield.
TennesseePaul
January 10th, 2013
9:25 am
Fredo will negate that pressure-free environment by hitting the guy 4. Since that’s probably the absolute worst lineup slot for Upton, I can practically guarantee that’s where he will hit.
Wren already negated that pressure-free environment by handing him the “largest contract in franchise history.”
In 2009, the Rays lineup piled pressure on BJ due to the new presence and success of Ben Zobrist (149 OPS+), Carlos Pena’s second consecutive year of 30+ HR, another strong showing from Longoria and of course Carl Crawford. BJ turned in an 82 OPS+ season as he tried to make up for all those slackers.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
9:28 am
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
9:32 am
.310 (around normal) babip
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
10:06 am
CAC top 40…. don’t agree w/ all of it obviously…
1. Julio Teheran
2. Lucas Sims
3. J.R. Graham
4. Sean Gilmartin
5. Christian Bethancourt
6. Alex Wood
7. Mauricio Cabrera
8. Nick Ahmed
9. Jose Peraza
10. Zeke Spruill
11. Edward Salcedo
12. Todd Cunningham
13. Evan Gattis
14. Joey Terdoslavich
15. Tommy La Stella
16. Matt Lipka
17. Bryan De La Rosa
18. Brandon Drury
19. Aaron Northcraft
20. Kyle Kubitza
21. Luis Merejo
22. Luis Avilan
23. David Hale
24. Cody Martin
25. Navery Moore
26. Cory Gearrin
27. Juan Jaime
28. Josh Elander
29. William Beckwith
30. Fernelys Sanchez
31. Daniel Rodriguez
32. Justin Black
33. Carlos Franco
34. Connor Lien
35. Joe Leonard
36. Nathan Hyatt
37. Johan Carmango
38. Chris Jones
39. Blake Brown
40. Ernesto Mejia
Cliff Fiscal
January 10th, 2013
10:27 am
Questions to DOB and/or anyone else: Is there any real dispute as to whether Maddux goes into the Hall of Fame as a Brave verses as a Cub? I always figured it would be as a Brave since his prime years were spent in Atlanta. Also, does the player or Hall choose the particular team?
Thanks in advance, I have an annoying buddy from Chicago who thinks Maddux should go into the Hall as a Cub.
CF-BRAVE-FAN
January 10th, 2013
10:31 am
Just my opinion, oene like we all have – there was a lot of stuff to read in that blog, but I did not see any news. Maybe I missed it – speculation, hearsay, what if, b;ah, blah and more blah. Maybe there is no news to report, I suppose….
RemoW
January 10th, 2013
10:31 am
Cliff Fiscal: The HOF chooses the club. Maddux is is 95% certain to go in as a Brave. He was instrumental in the 14 year run, vs 1 playoff appearance with the Cubs.
Shaun
January 10th, 2013
10:31 am
The thing that gets me is the voters seem to think steroids is the first thing that players (and others considered for induction) ever did to cheat the game. It’s saying some forms of cheating and less-than-ideal behavior are more acceptable than others.
This idea that the game and its statistics were once pure until big bad steroids came and ruined it all is false. The game has never been pure and never will be.
The character clause should only come in to play when a player’s behavior was so bad that it actually cost his team wins on the field. Plenty of players have cheated in one form or another, or did other things worse than cheating to shine a negative light on the game.
So I’m all for talking about front officey type stuff. That’s where the brains of baseball truly lie, not in some museum in Cooperstown or within baseball reporters but in the people that actually know baseball, who get paid to evaluate. Those are the type people who should have a much greater say in things like awards and Hall of Fame voting, the people that actually know baseball like no other group.
Murph
January 10th, 2013
10:33 am
Salcedo is 11th? Wow. Either he’s still held in high regard or our 12-40 prospects really stink.
My guess is the latter.
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
10:34 am
It’s saying some forms of cheating and less-than-ideal behavior are more acceptable than others.
You cannot possibly be equating scuffing a baseball and stealing signs with taking steroids.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
10:35 am
our 12-40 prospects really stink.
13. Evan Gattis would like to speak with you.
abeeeewright
January 10th, 2013
10:37 am
DS1, January 9th, 2013, 10:45 pm … “I’m thinking that it would be poetic justice if Schafer ended up this spring being the player we all thought he might be a few years back.”
It would be a great problem to have for Schafer to “figure it out.” I’m actually rooting for him to be the fourth OF.
I don’t think his bat will ever make him a legitimate LF, and BJ has CF covered for a few years.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
10:39 am
Henry Schulman @hankschulman
Sean Casey on @MLBNetwork. “I know guys who left the game when amphetamines were made illegal. I have no doubt amphetamines are PEDs.”
Aren’t amphetamines really just a stimulant like caffeine?
Jeff R
January 10th, 2013
10:40 am
I posted this last night in response to comments by Shaun:
I do not feel comfortable saying Gaylord Perry’s form of cheating was better or worse or more moral or less moral than Barry Bonds’s form of cheating.
I do. Perry altered the ball not his body, and the effect of altering one’s body through PEDs more greatly influences performance than throwing spitters. Perry’s annual numbers, though mostly solid to outstanding, were never off the charts like Bond’s numbers.
And not incidentally, when Perry was caught throwing spitters, he was tossed from games (and, I think, fined). Was the penalty sufficient for repeated offenses? No, I don’t think so. Suspensions and stiff fines might have better worked with Perry.
Cliff Fiscal
January 10th, 2013
10:41 am
Shaun – The character clause should only come in to play when a player’s behavior was so bad that it actually cost his team wins on the field.
Interesting! So, if a player decides to hire a hit man and take out stars on the other teams, this should not implicate the character clause. After all, the behavior served to benefit his team and possibly create wins.
Jeff R
January 10th, 2013
10:49 am
Aren’t amphetamines really just a stimulant like caffeine?
I don’t pretend to know the pharmacology, but caffeine is a mild stimulant and an amphetamine is a much more concentrated and intensified stimulant. Depending on the dosage of amphetamine, you’d have to ingest quite a lot of caffeine to come close to the effects of the amphetamine, and even then it may not have quite the same effect given that, I would imagine, caffeine and amphetamine have different chemical properties.
Any pharmacists on the blog who could weigh in?
Murph
January 10th, 2013
10:49 am
The character clause should only come in to play when a player’s behavior was so bad that it actually cost his team wins on the field.
I bet you’re wishing you could edit your previous posts, ’cause this has to be one of the most retarded things you’ve ever posted on here.
Wow.
Murph
January 10th, 2013
10:49 am
The character clause should only come in to play when a player’s behavior was so bad that it actually cost his team wins on the field.
I bet you’re wishing you could edit your previous posts, ’cause this has to be one of the most retarded things you’ve ever posted on here.
Wow.
Murph
January 10th, 2013
10:53 am
The blog is back to its old crashing, double-posting self this morning. Lovely.
Shaun
January 10th, 2013
10:53 am
ncscoots, scuffing a baseball is against the rules, no? In a significant way, scuffing balls and taking steroids isn’t any different. But I guess if one form of cheating gets different, possibly lesser, results than another, then it’s okay, regardless of the rules.
Cliff Fiscal, if a player hires a hit man to take out other players, I’m pretty sure he would be put on the ineligible list and the Hall of Fame would be a non-issue. Also, jail time probably wouldn’t help a player contribute to his team.
CB
January 10th, 2013
10:58 am
I must be a real failure in life, I have never double posted.
TennesseePaul
January 10th, 2013
10:58 am
It’s saying some forms of cheating and less-than-ideal behavior are more acceptable than others.
No it doesn’t. Once you can comprehend that fact perhaps you can join the rest of society.
Your first step to comprehension will be admitting you care a great deal about the HOF and the HOF voting process.
unbelievable
January 10th, 2013
11:00 am
IMO, Bonds, Clemens, and Rose should all be in the HOF.
Bat Masterson
January 10th, 2013
11:00 am
So I’m all for talking about front officey type stuff. That’s where the brains of baseball truly lie, not in some museum in Cooperstown or within baseball reporters but in the people that actually know baseball, who get paid to evaluate _ Shaun
What’s stopping you. No one is forcing you to go on at length about something you claim not to care about at all.
By the way your baseball player/racism screed regarding players in the Ty Cobb era is ridiculous.
Just a general comment but, every column I’ve read by Jeff Passan leaves me thinking he’s an idiot. I’ve only read a few so I don’t know if it’s bad timing or not.
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
11:00 am
In a significant way, scuffing balls and taking steroids isn’t any different.
If this is truly your position, then I don’t think we have any reason for further discourse on the topic.
Shaun
January 10th, 2013
11:00 am
Aren’t amphetamines really just a stimulant like caffeine?
That’s another issue with all this, which performing-enhancing drugs are a big deal and which aren’t? The issue will probably be tougher and tougher to deal with as improvements are made and knowledge is gained about using certain drugs for certain purposes without many harmful side effects. We have cholesterol medicine. If a baseball player took such a drug, to keep his cholesterol down, should that be considered a performance-enhancer. Maybe it’s the ultimate performance-enhancer because it’s keeping him alive to perform. Maybe MLB should outlaw Tommy John surgery, cortisone shots or even ibuprofen which are performance-enhancers.
There’s definitely a line to be drawn there but I’m not sure just labeling something a “performance-enhancer” is enough to outlaw it, otherwise many of us would be doing immoral things to enhance our performance.
TennesseePaul
January 10th, 2013
11:02 am
The character clause should only come in to play when a player’s behavior was so bad that it actually cost his team wins on the field.
Egregious assertion. The “character clause” doesn’t exist. There are no “clauses” on the ballot. Second, character should not be used strictly as a parameter for exclusion.
Shaun
January 10th, 2013
11:03 am
ncscoots, so scuffing a ball isn’t cheating and using steroids is? Please explain.
DAP
January 10th, 2013
11:09 am
shaun voters seem to think steroids is the first thing that players (and others considered for induction) ever did to cheat the game.
your argument has a false premise, so why dont you start over? try something new. because no one has suggested steroids are the first thing anyone did to cheat the game. no one has said the game was pure until steroids. youre making up the position so you can argue with it.
want to change voting? that could be a good idea.
TennesseePaul
January 10th, 2013
11:10 am
In a significant way, scuffing balls and taking steroids isn’t any different.
“Son, listen, if you’re going to steal bubble gum, you might as well take heroin so here’s a needle and syringe. Don’t ever let any one tell you otherwise. Some one gives you lip about your smack, just point out that they lied when they told their wife she doesn’t look fat in her skinny jeans.”
Murph
January 10th, 2013
11:11 am
ncscoots, scuffing a baseball is against the rules, no? In a significant way, scuffing balls and taking steroids isn’t any different. But I guess if one form of cheating gets different, possibly lesser, results than another, then it’s okay, regardless of the rules.
Let’s say that a ball scuffer or spitballer alters the ball 50% of the time, which is likely a very, very high estimate of the amount of times they cheat a game. That’s bad.
Now let’s look at a roider. Every swing they take, every base they run, every fly ball they chase down is affected by their cheating.
That’s not just bad, it’s deplorable.
TennesseePaul
January 10th, 2013
11:12 am
you’re making up the position so you can argue with it.
Yes. He does enjoy waling away at the strawmen. He must have despised the scarecrow from Wizard of Oz…. “get him monkeys! rip him to pieces! you’re my heroes!”
abeeeewright
January 10th, 2013
11:13 am
“There seems to be this tendency by some prominent posters to take last year’s numbers and project them to next year…”
The posters whose baseball acumen is sharp have been saying … expect bounce back towards career numbers for a healthy McCann and for Uggla. Expect an increase in maturity from Freeman and Heyward. Hope Simmons can hit a little.
I know there are posters who are prominent by volume of posts who indicate that the Braves will imitate a vacuum cleaner this coming year. I wouldn’t take much of what they say too seriously.
TennesseePaul
January 10th, 2013
11:13 am
That’s not just bad, it’s deplorable.
They’ve embodied cheating.
Shaun
January 10th, 2013
11:16 am
TennesseePaul and Bat Masterson, I care that a group of people has influence over those who actually think their say in who does and doesn’t belong in the Hall of Fame actually has merit.
Any group that thinks Jack Morris provided more value to his teams than Tim Raines or that Miguel Cabrera provided more value in 2012 than Mike Trout should be discounted. And I’ll do whatever small part I can to make sure people realize this. Because a certain group claims that it is so doesn’t mean that’s the reality. No way a front office would take Morris’s career over Raines’s or the 2012 major league performance of Cabrera over the 2012 major league performance of Trout. Fans should think like the people that actually know these things, the front office personnel, not the people who don’t, a significant portion of the BBWAA. The game will be much more enjoyable if you know which group to pay attention to in your attempts to think critically about the game.
DAP
January 10th, 2013
11:16 am
shaun In a significant way, scuffing balls and taking steroids isn’t any different.
thats stupid too. just stupid.
raleighbravefan
January 10th, 2013
11:16 am
Shaun – Still repeating EVERYTHING you said yesterday? Contrary to what some politicians and a certain TV “news” network seem to believe, repeating a falsehood over and over does not, nor will it ever, make it the truth.
abeeeewright
January 10th, 2013
11:17 am
Seriously, yo. George Brett used too much pine tar on his bat. Throw the cheater out of the HoF!
DAP
January 10th, 2013
11:19 am
It’s saying some forms of cheating and less-than-ideal behavior are more acceptable than others.
it is true that not all forms of cheating are equal, some some are worse than others, in the same way some crimes are more heinous than others. thats actually…obvious.
TennesseePaul
January 10th, 2013
11:20 am
Any group that [has a different opinion or point of view than me] should be discounted. And I’ll do whatever small part I can to make sure people realize this.
abeeeewright
January 10th, 2013
11:20 am
Contrary to what
some politiciansevery politician anda certainevery TV “news” network seem to believe, repeating a falsehood over and over does not, nor will it ever, make it the truth.Fixed!
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
11:20 am
Any group that thinks Jack Morris provided more value to his teams
Geebus, some folks of the statistical bent seem to think that Jack Morris in the HOF is equivalent to Rosemary’s Baby being born.
RemoW
January 10th, 2013
11:24 am
It is not about character clause. It is about a drug that makes a joke of long standing stats.
If you are convinced that someone was a HOF pre-steroids (Bonds up to age 35) Then vote them in and cut Bonds stats off at age 35. Same sort of deal with Clemens. Sosa would never be in HOF discussion except for steroids.
But “greenies”, scuffing, spit, Vaseline, cortisone injections, or corking do not make appreciable difference in stats. Anyone of those can be taken away and the player goes back to a ”
normal” player. The magic advantage gone. Not with steroids. Once you take the magic juice the gain is permanent. You can take the drug away but the 40 lbs of muscle stay.
Steroids allowed players to put up numbers that they would never be able to accomplish without the drug. It is very clear that Bond’s on his original career path would have made the 600 HR club. But I doubt he would have touched 700 as he hit the decline phase of his career.
Steroids also created a perception about normal or traditional sluggers that has hurt Dale Murphy, Fred McGriff. McGriff was, for the pre-steroids era, a solid traditional 30+ homer guys. With steroids he was viewed as a lesser hitter, even weak in light of guys like Brady Anderson hitting 50. When in a traditional sense, pre-steroids era, he was on his way to the HOF .
Steroids changed the game and stats in ways that no other drug can touch. It made players so much more then their given talent. One of the great beauties of baseball is the stats, pre-steroids you might run into the statistical anomaly (George Foster 52 HR 1977), but with the length of time stats had been accumulated you average out the statistical norm for a slugger, stealer, slap hitter etc and you get a real clear picture of what an “average” player of that type might do in his career. But steroids made the aberration the norm. Making the traditional superstar or great players look lesser.
TennesseePaul
January 10th, 2013
11:24 am
it is true that not all forms of cheating are equal…
What isn’t true is that assessing the difference in cost equates to acceptability. No body likes a cheat of any form and finds that behavior unacceptable. But all forms of cheating are not punishable by equal measure. Some forms result in fines and/or suspensions. Others resulting in banning from the game. But again, the difference in the punishment doesn’t make one form more “acceptable” than others.
Murph
January 10th, 2013
11:24 am
The game will be much more enjoyable if you know which group to pay attention to in your attempts to think critically about the game.
Funny, seems watching the game for the fun of it being a game is the most enjoyable way to watch of all.
Shaun’s wasted life….
Lew
January 10th, 2013
11:25 am
Their say doesn’t have merit? Until they change the way players are elected to the HOF, their say is the ONLY one that has merit.
abeeeewright
January 10th, 2013
11:25 am
The problem with the comparison of amphetamines with coffee is that you fail to realize a player who has drunk so much coffee as to get the high of a Black Beauty will never get on the field to play the games. He’ll start to leave the washroom, and it’s time to return the deposit on the next cup o’ joe.
DAP
January 10th, 2013
11:29 am
as far as jack morris goes, he was a really good pitcher. im just not sure a guy should be a HOFer because he pitched alot of innings. if you didnt know he won 4 WS are was “the ace” on those teams, i dont think youd look at his stats and think he needed to be in.
morris might have been hurt by the fact that apparently he didnt pitch for personal stats, but for team wins. thus, lots of innings, and a relatively high ERA, WHIP, ect, because he “pitched to the score”.
Cliff Fiscal
January 10th, 2013
11:30 am
Murph – Funny, seems watching the game for the fun of it being a game is the most enjoyable way to watch of all.
Nah, it was much more fun in 1991 perusing the stat sheets to figure out who contributed the most in terms of value than to actually watch the Braves chase down the Dodgers and play in one of the best World Series ever.
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
11:30 am
The game will be much more enjoyable if you know which group to pay attention to in your attempts to think critically about the game.
You make an assumption that every baseball fan aspires to be you, LOL. Does it occur that some fans wish only to enjoy the game and that critical thinking isn’t part of their formula for doing so? Why must the universe succumb to your vision and perspective?
unbelievable
January 10th, 2013
11:32 am
Bonds and Clemens were HOF players with ot without steriod use. Sosa, McGwire, and Palmeiro were not. Pete Rose should absolutely be in the Hall due to his production on the field. If we are keeping players out due to character issues, then their shouldnt be a HOF.
Murph
January 10th, 2013
11:40 am
Ummmmm… anyone else getting the text-only blog page now? I actually like it. No formatting, no ads… hope it lasts.
DAP
January 10th, 2013
11:40 am
10paul What isn’t true is that assessing the difference in cost equates to acceptability.
yup. right on.
unbelievable
January 10th, 2013
11:41 am
There are still plenty of unsigned RH’d relievers. Im surprised no one has signed Soriano just yet.
Bat Masterson
January 10th, 2013
11:42 am
The game will be much more enjoyable if you know which group to pay attention to in your attempts to think critically about the game. _ Shaun
Yeah okay. I used to take your comments here seriously, now I mostly read them as unintentional satire. Cracks me up regardless
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
11:42 am
Bonds and Clemens were HOF players with ot without steriod use.
If I was smart enough to be a top tier student in school, well enough to make the honor’s list, but then decided to cheat to become the overall top student, I doubt I would get to keep prior or receive any new awards.
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
11:50 am
Nah, it was much more fun in 1991 perusing the stat sheets to figure out who contributed the most in terms of value than to actually watch the Braves chase down the Dodgers and play in one of the best World Series ever.
I vividly remember 1993, the year in which I did not calculate third-order wins each day as the Giants and Braves went toe-to-toe like titans versus the gods.
Jeff R
January 10th, 2013
11:52 am
In a significant way, scuffing balls and taking steroids isn’t any different.
Pure malarkey, Shaun, for reasons I stated earlier re: Gaylord Perry.
Brava
January 10th, 2013
11:55 am
Bonds and Clemens were HOF players with ot without steriod use.
Well then, they shouldn’t have made the very poor choice to use them and cheat clean players and baseball fans everywhere.
Bat Masterson
January 10th, 2013
11:56 am
Jeff R @ 11:52
That was ignored because because it’s inconvenient. SOP
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
12:04 pm
Well then, they shouldn’t have made the very poor choice to use them and cheat clean players and baseball fans everywhere.
In fairness, I think the combination of Bonds’ ego and other players’ use of steroids led him to that choice. I believe that he simply couldn’t accept appearing to be a lesser player than those who actually were lesser players than he. I’m not excusing the choice, by the way, just saying that I can understand the motivation.
A man might go down to the crossroads, but he can still walk right past the Devil, even so. The choice is always there.
Murph
January 10th, 2013
12:04 pm
I wonder… when Shaun burns his finger on his microwavable Hungry Man dinner, does he call an ambulance and have himself admitted to the local hospital’s burn center? He must, because a burn is a burn… there is no differentiating between severe and minor burns, there are just burns.
Bourn back to Braves? Rumor mill gets a spin - Atlanta Sports Today
January 10th, 2013
12:09 pm
[...] the blogosphere went about as you’d expect in this age of 2 + 2 = 10. Bourn (above) is Source: AJC: Atlanta Braves – Dave O’Brien Blog Share this: Posted in: Braves Cancel [...]
abeeeewright
January 10th, 2013
12:12 pm
Outside of Bourn, are there any FA outfielders waiting to be signed?
I wonder how long it takes for Bourn to sign a deal. This is getting long even by Boras standards.
abeeeewright
January 10th, 2013
12:14 pm
When Bourn does sign, he will presumably bump some OF onto the trade market. Not necessarily a “premium player” (whatever that is), but an upgrade over what the Braves have.
abeeeewright
January 10th, 2013
12:16 pm
I cannot understand why sabremetricians don’t form their own Hall of Fame.
Find some land, buy a building, write a governing policy, start electing members.
abeeeewright
January 10th, 2013
12:17 pm
I’ll chip in a buck to the building fund if it will cause all of the nonsense associated with MVP and HoF to STFU.
Shaun
January 10th, 2013
12:18 pm
I do. Perry altered the ball not his body, and the effect of altering one’s body through PEDs more greatly influences performance than throwing spitters. Perry’s annual numbers, though mostly solid to outstanding, were never off the charts like Bond’s numbers.
Does altering the ball have less of an influence than altering one’s body through PED use? That’s an assumption, not necessarily fact.
Ever think that Bonds’s numbers are off the charts and Perry’s were not is because Bonds was the more talented player to begin with? Maybe altering the ball helped Perry as much as PEDs helped Bonds, but the starting point was much different.
You make an assumption that every baseball fan aspires to be you, LOL. Does it occur that some fans wish only to enjoy the game and that critical thinking isn’t part of their formula for doing so? Why must the universe succumb to your vision and perspective?
If you don’t care to understand how the baseball industry, i.e., front offices, thinks about the game, it’s hard to take your opinions about awards voting, Hall of Fame voting and just general views of the game all that serious.
For instance, don’t pretend your view of who should be the MVP have validity if you aren’t interested in determining who teams would choose and think is the most valuable player. I’ll go with the group who knows how to determine and what goes in to player value over a group of baseball reporters. Reporters do a fine job of what they are paid to do, but that doesn’t include determining things like player value. The reporters would be better off relying largely on the people who know how to do this when they are voting for awards and Hall of Fame, etc. If I’m trying to decide which car to buy, I’m certainly going to ask mechanics instead of just relying solely on my own understanding. But a significant portion of the BBWAA doesn’t think this way. They don’t seem to want to admit that they don’t know as much as folks in front offices, so they don’t bother understanding the game in the ways that a front office would.
abeeeewright
January 10th, 2013
12:20 pm
Would be funny if Wren signed Soriano to a one year contract and then traded him for a scrub.
MFIKY might think the Wren-ster had it in for him to do it twice.
Jeff R
January 10th, 2013
12:20 pm
Bat Masterson, you are correct, sir.
George_George
January 10th, 2013
12:21 pm
Good to have Bat back on blog, but maybe if we all stopped posting the IT guys would fix the darn thing.
Jeff R
January 10th, 2013
12:24 pm
Does altering the ball have less of an influence than altering one’s body through PED use? That’s an assumption, not necessarily fact.
That’s a common sense assumption, and I bet most baseball men (and pro trainers) would back that observation.
Ever think that Bonds’s numbers are off the charts and Perry’s were not is because Bonds was the more talented player to begin with?
Apples and oranges. Different eras, and Bonds was a hitter, Perry a pitcher. And do I think Bonds numbers were off the charts due to his talking PEDs? Absolutely.
Shaun
January 10th, 2013
12:24 pm
I wonder… when Shaun burns his finger on his microwavable Hungry Man dinner, does he call an ambulance and have himself admitted to the local hospital’s burn center? He must, because a burn is a burn… there is no differentiating between severe and minor burns, there are just burns.
When it comes to the Hall, why differentiate between one form of cheating and another? I understand if you think PEDs made the difference in a player’s career and pushed him over the boundary and in to the Hall. But I don’t understand if you think the player was already good enough, like Bonds and Clemens. If two players are Hall of Famers regardless of whether they cheated, but one player cheated in a different way than another, what kind of statement are you making by keeping out one of those players that cheated in a form that you didn’t like?
abeeeewright
January 10th, 2013
12:26 pm
Shaun … Does altering the ball have less of an influence than altering one’s body through PED use?
Yes.
Shaun … That’s an assumption, not necessarily fact.
No. It’s a fact.
Shaun … “Maybe altering the ball helped Perry as much as PEDs helped Bonds, but the starting point was much different.”
No. It didn’t. PEDs helped Bonds a great deal. Spitting on the ball had a marginal effect for Perry (looked at over his entire career).
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
12:28 pm
When Bourn does sign, he will presumably bump some OF onto the trade market. Not necessarily a “premium player” (whatever that is), but an upgrade over what the Braves have.
A power bat though? can’t really see that one…
abeeeewright
January 10th, 2013
12:29 pm
Shaun … “If two players are Hall of Famers regardless of whether they cheated, but one player cheated in a different way than another, what kind of statement are you making by keeping out one of those players that cheated in a form that you didn’t like?”
Nancy Reagan … “Just say ‘NO’ to drugs.”
Cliff Fiscal
January 10th, 2013
12:30 pm
I could be wrong, but didn’t many MLB players and managers back Cabrera for MVP? I read one article where the MVP debate was couched as players and managers verses front office types. So, assuming that is true, there were insider baseball people who trumputed Cabrera over Trout. Not sure what this means except that writers were not the only group on one side of the debate.
abeeeewright
January 10th, 2013
12:31 pm
TOBF … “A power bat though? can’t really see that one…”
Nor can I. Just saying, better than what we have.
abeeeewright
January 10th, 2013
12:32 pm
And saying “better than Garret Anderson in the twilight of his career” as if it needed to be said.
Shaun
January 10th, 2013
12:33 pm
Apples and oranges. Different eras, and Bonds was a hitter, Perry a pitcher. And do I think Bonds numbers were off the charts due to his talking PEDs? Absolutely.
So Perry’s cheating wasn’t as bad because he played in a different era and he was a pitcher?
No one denies Bonds numbers were almost certainly better because of PEDs. But also no one denies he was almost certainly a Hall of Fame talent regardless of whether he took PEDs. So what statement are the writers trying to make when they keep out a player like Bonds but not a player like Perry? Who are the voters to decide that one form of cheating is worse than another, in terms of Hall of Fame voting, when both forms are considered cheating?
Seems this is all about the voters covering up for themselves because they didn’t do enough questioning and investigating when all of this was going on. Seems their thought process is that they can cover up their own ignorance and laziness by displaying morality.
abeeeewright
January 10th, 2013
12:35 pm
scoots … “A man might go down to the crossroads, but he can still walk right past the Devil, even so. The choice is always there.”
Or, he could become a d**n fine guitar player.
TennesseePaul
January 10th, 2013
12:43 pm
what kind of statement are you making by keeping out one of those players that cheated in a form that you didn’t like?
You still fail on this mark as you have yet to comprehend the point.
TennesseePaul
January 10th, 2013
12:45 pm
So Perry’s cheating wasn’t as bad…
Still failing.
crackbaby
January 10th, 2013
12:47 pm
Problem with letting in obvious, and not so obvious, steroid users is it causes you to disregard the best clean players b/c their numbers aren’t as good.
Who were the best clean players of the steroid era? and how will we know…
Murph
January 10th, 2013
12:49 pm
Shaun doesn’t see the difference between throwing a few spitballs a game and a player changing his body so that it’s faster, stronger, better for every AB of a season, multiple seasons in a row.
Nothing you guys can say will make him think differently, so best to stop trying to make him understand. Not gonna happen.
crackbaby
January 10th, 2013
12:49 pm
Bourn was the Braves best leadoff hitter since Otis Nixon, maybe better.
David O'Brien
January 10th, 2013
12:49 pm
Questions to DOB and/or anyone else: Is there any real dispute as to whether Maddux goes into the Hall of Fame as a Brave verses as a Cub? I always figured it would be as a Brave since his prime years were spent in Atlanta. Also, does the player or Hall choose the particular team?
Thanks in advance, I have an annoying buddy from Chicago who thinks Maddux should go into the Hall as a Cub. — Cliff Fiscal
No question in my mind that he’ll go in as Brave, since he pitched more years and won far more games as a Brave than as a Cub, and also won three of his four Cy Young Awards as a Brave.
He was 194-88 with a 2.62 ERA as a Brave, 133-112 with a 3.61 ERA as a Cub.
Only time it even matters which team they go in as a member of is at the induction ceremony when they wear the jersey. There’s no logo or team name or anything else on the player’s plaque in the Hall of Fame.
By the way, the HOF chooses which team he goes in as a member of, not the player. That rule changed about a decade ago.
Luman Harris
January 10th, 2013
12:50 pm
You guys leave Shaun alone.
How many games did Gaylord Perry win because he got a crucial out with a scuffed ball or a spitball? We have no way of knowing.
And since we have no way of knowing … it’s perfectly OK for Shaun to believe that Perry’s cheating was as significant as Bonds’ cheating.
Bat Masterson
January 10th, 2013
12:50 pm
Gracias, George
It is a giant pain to comment here and I have not had the time. Pity
JC Brave
January 10th, 2013
12:51 pm
Can someone please post Keith Law’s Top 25 Under 25?
Thank you in advance.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
12:52 pm
Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS
MLB will announce agreement for random, unannounced in-season hgh blood testing. first major US sport to test for hgh.
Cliff Fiscal
January 10th, 2013
12:53 pm
Thanks, DOB.
George_George
January 10th, 2013
12:54 pm
I just made a request to be a member of FB page DOB/MIB fans. I did so because I am tired of this blogs IT problems. I am not tired of most of the bloggers here. Shaun can be a bit tireing lol. DOB most likely will black-ball me at DOB/MIB, we will see. DOB I promise not to mention your work there. I will post there but not as often.
Murph
January 10th, 2013
12:56 pm
MLB will announce agreement for random, unannounced in-season hgh blood testing. first major US sport to test for hgh.
And in related news, look for HR totals to drop significantly next season…
The Year of the Pitcher, Part Deux.
Shaun
January 10th, 2013
12:57 pm
Cliff Fiscal, that’s true. Players and managers seemed to back Cabrera, while front office folks, the folks whose job it is to valuate players, backed Trout. I’ll go with the folks who valuate players when it comes to determining which player was most valuable.
No. It didn’t. PEDs helped Bonds a great deal. Spitting on the ball had a marginal effect for Perry (looked at over his entire career).
That’s an assumption. But it probably is reasonable. However Bonds was a Hall of Fame type player with or without PEDs. So it comes down to whether you want to accept one form of cheating but not others when it comes to the Hall of Fame.
If you are going to keep players out because they cheated, and if you know the cheating (while it made a player’s numbers better), didn’t influence whether he was a Hall of Fame caliber player, it follows that you think some cheating is acceptable and some cheating isn’t.
Barry Bonds cheated. Gaylord Perry cheated. Both were Hall of Fame caliber players, regardless. Actually it’s more likely that cheating made more of a difference in Perry’s career than Bonds’s career in terms of pushing him over the threshold for the Hall, though I don’t think it did in either case. So that only leaves one possibility: That the voters are not willing to accept one form of cheating but are fine with another. Why would this be the case? Probably because of their own guilt in not being able to uncover the steroid use. Perhaps also because Perry’s cleverness in hiding his cheating is seen as more charming and cuter than a steroid users cleverness in getting around any rules that may (or may not) have been on the books to get away with his form of cheating.
Juan
January 10th, 2013
12:58 pm
Babe Ruth eat few hot dog during the games. Does Hot Dog are stimulant?
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
1:03 pm
If you don’t care to understand how the baseball industry, i.e., front offices, thinks about the game, it’s hard to take your opinions about awards voting, Hall of Fame voting and just general views of the game all that serious.
Don’t worry, no one will force you to stop posting here just because we don’t take you seriously.
George_George
January 10th, 2013
1:04 pm
What ever i JUST DID i DID NOT MEAN TO DO IT.
Shaun
January 10th, 2013
1:06 pm
TennesseePaul and Murph, please explain to me, oh, wise ones, why it is taking a more admirable moral stand to vote against Bonds or Clemens but for Perry. It isn’t because one player cheated and the other didn’t. It isn’t because one would have been Hall of Fame caliber and one wouldn’t have been. If anything Perry is the more likely than Bonds or Clemens to need cheating to help his Hall of Fame case. So why is it? What does it say about the morality of the voters that they find cheating acceptable in certain forms but not others? Is it even about morality or about guilt and trying to cover what the voters perceive as their own sins? Tell me, oh wise ones.
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
1:07 pm
Or, he could become a d**n fine guitar player.
Amen to that, LOL.
‘Course, his hat size might expand a little, too, but what the hey….
George_George
January 10th, 2013
1:10 pm
George_George
January 10th, 2013
12:54 pm
I just made a request to be a member of FB page DOB/MIB fans. I did so because I am tired of this blogs IT problems. I am not tired of most of the bloggers here. Shaun can be a bit tireing lol. DOB most likely will black-ball me at DOB/MIB, we will see. DOB I promise not to mention your work there. I will post here but not as often.
TennesseePaul
January 10th, 2013
1:10 pm
taking a more admirable moral stand to vote against Bonds or Clemens but for Perry.
First, before we proceed, please work through your issue here. Define “taking a more admirable moral stand.” Also, point out when either one of us asserted such.
abeeeewright
January 10th, 2013
1:10 pm
Shaun … “it follows that you think some cheating is acceptable and some cheating isn’t”
No it doesn’t. It follows that some cheating affects the very nature of the game and some doesn’t. HoF doesn’t have to celebrate the folks who made a mockery of the game.
Unchecked steroid abuse would eventually transform the game into one where no one could reach the major leagues without modifying their body.
Since MLB is “the national past-time” (codified in law), this could have a negative impact on all of American society. (That’s why I used dear Nancy’s quote earlier.)
There’s very little chance that unchecked spitball abuse will have any impact on society at all.
Jeff R
January 10th, 2013
1:11 pm
So Perry’s cheating wasn’t as bad because he played in a different era and he was a pitcher?
Shaun, you’re resorting to one of your old tactics: taking another’s remarks out of context, this to slip by flaws in your arguments or to try to divert from others examining your own tortured logic. I never said what you’re suggesting I said. Anyone can go through the back-chain on the blog to know what I wrote.
But I stand by what I said: There are most certainly degrees of cheating. A shoplifter hasn’t committed the same offense as an armed robber. Or do you think so?
Perry cheated, indeed, though his offense wasn’t on the order of Bonds’ cheating. As I stated earlier, when Perry was caught, he was tossed from games and, I believe, fined. Should the penalty for Perry doctoring the ball been tougher? There’s a fair argument that it should have.
But I’m sure any physiologist could explain just what PEDs do to muscle mass, etc., to significantly enhance a ballplayer’s performances. Do you think that when there was a power explosion in MLB it was a coincidence? That that dramatic climb in power numbers by chance happened to track Bonds’, McGwire’s, and Sosa’s (among others) power climbs?
Me don’t think so.
abeeeewright
January 10th, 2013
1:13 pm
scoots … “‘Course, his hat size might expand a little, too, but what the hey….”
LOL.
TennesseePaul
January 10th, 2013
1:15 pm
That rule changed about a decade ago.
–DOB
That all spiked during the Rays early days right? When they signed a lot of HOF types at the end of their career and asked for the team induction? I don’t know if any player actually did such, or if the team actually asked as much, but I recall a lot of speculation and debate on the topic and then the rule changed negating it all.
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
1:21 pm
or about guilt and trying to cover what the voters perceive as their own sins?
Yes, it’s perfectly reasonable to think that BBWAA members are engaged in a wide-spread conspiracy of hiding their own personal warts through the process of denying HOF entry to worthy candidates.
You can’t make this stuff up, folks.
Brava
January 10th, 2013
1:26 pm
Dang, George. Way to take over the blog.
DAP
January 10th, 2013
1:30 pm
juan Babe Ruth eat few hot dog during the games. Does Hot Dog are stimulant?
yes, by shaun’s definition. per his post earlier on this thread, anything that keeps a player alive (like food) is a performance enhancer, thus, just as bad as steroids.
shaun said We have cholesterol medicine. If a baseball player took such a drug, to keep his cholesterol down, should that be considered a performance-enhancer. Maybe it’s the ultimate performance-enhancer because it’s keeping him alive to perform.
George_George
January 10th, 2013
1:33 pm
Hi Brava
I did not mean to do that. it scrared me , sorry. Have you seen the DOB/MIB fan page? It is nice and it works well.
PMC
January 10th, 2013
1:36 pm
I’m sure the Braves would be comfortable going to the season with a platoon situation in left rather than a proven corner outfielder that can provide big offensive numbers. They do this almost if not every single season (with the inevitable result that they get plastered in the playoffs with no ability to score runs in the least)
The Braves organization is trying to be competitive enough to be there at the end so they can “make the playoffs” but they aren’t really trying to win anything, and that’s exactly what the message is to the fans if they go into the season without addressing left field. We know it, and they know it, but every media type paid by that team is going to act like it’s the best situation ever if they go with a platoon. They fail to address offense adequately every single year. Rinse Lather Repeat.
Offense apparently is expensive.
Threadkiller
January 10th, 2013
1:36 pm
Didn’t Brandon Marshall of the Chicago Bears say most NFL Players are taking Viagra? That’s a performance enhancer! No wonder he has like 9 kids! But I guess the NFL players can kiss the HOF good bye now!
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
1:45 pm
The Braves organization is trying to be competitive enough to be there at the end so they can “make the playoffs” but they aren’t really trying to win anything, and that’s exactly what the message is to the fans if they go into the season without addressing left field.
In other words, the other seven guys they’ll throw out there every day aren’t all that good, but the addition of just one…single…guy, would be enough to turn them into “winners”?
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
1:46 pm
Craig Calcaterra @craigcalcaterra
Blue Jays were just given an award by the league for “Philanthropic Excellence.” Their charity work with the Miami Marlins is unsurpassed.
Shaun
January 10th, 2013
1:47 pm
If the voters are going to start worrying about behavior that negatively impacts American society, I’m not sure there are going to be a lot of baseball players worthy of induction.
ncscoots, I think it may be more about what they feel was their own inabilities to properly investigate and uncover widespread steroid use and the guilt around that, not using the Hall of Fame vote to cover up their own warts. It could be more about trying to vindicate and redeem themselves more so than covering up warts.
Murph
January 10th, 2013
1:55 pm
TennesseePaul and Murph, please explain to me, oh, wise ones, why it is taking a more admirable moral stand to vote against Bonds or Clemens but for Perry.
If Perry were up for a vote today, he’d have to answer for what he’s done… but he’s not. So it’s a non-issue.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
1:58 pm
TennesseePaul and Murph, please explain to me, oh, wise ones- Shaun
I thought he disliked, and was above these jabs….
Murph
January 10th, 2013
2:03 pm
I thought he disliked, and was above these jabs….
It was a preemptive strike for the eventual hair-challenged comment I’m due to make soon….
Shaun
January 10th, 2013
2:04 pm
Murph, yeah, right. You think if Greg Maddux had been found to have doctor the ball and he admitted to it, it would harm his case all that much? I think some cheating is found to be acceptable if not charming.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
2:05 pm
Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN
Another sign of the erosion in the relationship between the D-Backs and Justin Upton: The Uptown signs are coming down, as @Gambo620 reports
He gone
Bat Masterson
January 10th, 2013
2:08 pm
Ten to one one of Shaun’s heros used charming to describe Perry recently.
abeeeewright
January 10th, 2013
2:08 pm
“…(with the inevitable result that they get plastered in the playoffs with no ability to score runs in the least … “
This is really the Rally Stripper’s fault, not the Braves FO.
Once the Stripper invoked the Hanna Rule, third base is the best you can hope for.
Braves FO has obviously given in to the Hanna Rule as evidenced that their premium player is BJ.
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
2:14 pm
Ten to one
But who did he read recently with a change of heart on Evan Gattis? That’s what I want to know.
TennesseePaul
January 10th, 2013
2:15 pm
I think some cheating is found to be acceptable if not charming.
Spoken like a cheater.
You have yet to answer my questions at 1:10…
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
2:16 pm
Still has Gattis between a 99OPS+ guy (Hinske) and a 125+ guy in Willingham…. wide net
Murph
January 10th, 2013
2:17 pm
Murph, yeah, right. You think if Greg Maddux had been found to have doctor the ball and he admitted to it, it would harm his case all that much? I think some cheating is found to be acceptable if not charming.
You bet he would have to answer to that. Guaran-frickin-teed.
The thing you seem to not understand is that Perry was elected, what, 20-something years ago? That was a very different time. Hardly anyone had email. There was no Facebook. Social media didn’t exist. The internet was but a baby, compared to what it is today. There was SportsCenter but Baseball Tonight had just started up and, if you remember the first days, wasn’t exactly a big priority for ESPN.
In other words, the dearth of information that we have now about every move a player has made from the moment they were born until the moment they went up for the HoF vote didn’t exist. Nobody debated a player’s actions day in, day out in an online forum in front of thousands upon thousands of people.
Perry, were he to come up for a vote today, after being caught throwing spitballs and ejected from games in front of the Facebook and Twitter universe, would have come under much different scrutiny than he did in 1990 in front of his one local beat reporter.
It’s a different world, Shaun. I know you don’t understand that, but it’s a fact.
Steve Allen
January 10th, 2013
2:18 pm
The biggest change the Braves need to make is to fire Wren and get an aggressive GM who is the brains and the know-how to make the acquisitions we need to finally win the World Series again. Wren is too content with winning seasons to ever put together enough top-tier talent to bring another World Series title to Atlanta. Fire this bum and bring in somebody who isn’t so willing to go after losers like Derek Lowe, or sit on his hands year after year watching other teams make the blockbuster trades to give their teams a chance at the big prize.
abeeeewright
January 10th, 2013
2:18 pm
I was actually a little surprised that El Oso Blanco rose to 13 on the prospect list chart.
Good thing the Venezualan team doesn’t have a “screaming Gattis” on their hats or I might have to get offended.
abeeeewright
January 10th, 2013
2:20 pm
Murph … “It’s a different world, Shaun. I know you don’t understand that, but it’s a fact.”
One man’s facts are another man’s assumptions.
TennesseePaul
January 10th, 2013
2:23 pm
scoots, no heart changing. still believes Gattis will be a bench bat. Merely found a description which encompasses bench bat while opening the door to all other possible outcomes in the event bench bat proves to be a gross underestimate.
Murph
January 10th, 2013
2:24 pm
One man’s facts are another man’s assumptions.
That makes no sense in this context.
Shaun
January 10th, 2013
2:24 pm
Murph, yes, a different world in which a significant number of voters think they have moral omniscience, as far as which type of cheating is worse than others.
It’s also a different world in that more people than ever know how insane it is that writers refuse to vote in guys like Raines and think Jack Morris is a Hall of Famer. The fact that smarter people than a significant number of writers have access to more information is making the Hall of Fame more and more of a joke. And frankly, it’s sad for those who want the Hall of Fame to mean something.
Bat Masterson
January 10th, 2013
2:29 pm
But who did he read recently with a change of heart on Evan Gattis?
Beats me but I got a kick out of reading all that last night. Same with the ‘I don’t care about the HOF but I’m gonna bitch about it for a few days’ stuff.
O.M.G.
January 10th, 2013
2:30 pm
ab @ 2:08. “Now that’s funny, I don’t care who you are.”
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
2:32 pm
It’s also a different world in that more people than ever know how insane it is that writers refuse to vote in guys like Raines and think Jack Morris is a Hall of Famer.
Again, with the Jack Morris hate. What is it about this guy that makes you so froth at the mouth?
For what it’s worth, I don’t think he’s HOF-caliber. But, then, I don’t think Raines qualifies, either. Everybody knows that my personal Hall is a closet, LOL. Any doubt, he’s out. And for any player for whom the discussion starts with, “You can make a case that…”, that’s doubt.
TennesseePaul
January 10th, 2013
2:33 pm
in which a significant number of voters think they have moral omniscience
While that sounds like a great supper power, I think Payne’s own omniscience is more impressive. It isn’t merely restricted to “moral knowledge.” It clearly encompasses the thoughts and minds and motives of at least 569 writers across the nation and throughout all history as well as every single online blogger, commenter, and reader and every single person who has ever had connection or interest, if only fleeting, to the game of baseball.
Murph
January 10th, 2013
2:33 pm
Murph, yes, a different world in which a significant number of voters think they have moral omniscience, as far as which type of cheating is worse than others.
Have you seen or read a single writer say this? If so, post a link.
You know what would happen if it were Perry who just came up for the vote and not Bonds? There would be 100’s of videos on YouTube showing every single suspected spitball thrown by Perry over his career. There would be analysts that measure the exact break and trajectory of every pitch Perry had ever thrown. He would have been run through the mill with every blogger, sports writer, etc hammering him with questions about his cheating. People would have spent way too many hours predicting what would have happened in game 142 if he hadn’t struck out those 4 batters with spitters. He would have been a major topic across social media… photoshops of him slathering entire jars of Vaseline on baseball would have popped up all over the internet. There would have been a fake Twitter account created talking about how he cheats during eye exams and scuffs his kid’s basketballs hoping to gain him an edge in his YMCA league.
That’s what would have happened. Instead it was a minor story that came and went… much as most stories did back before the interweb was in every pocket, on every desk, installed in every TV, etc…
Lew
January 10th, 2013
2:34 pm
A different world maybe (well yeah, it IS, but….) and yet I sincerely doubt that anyone did NOT know about Perry’s ball doctoring.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
2:37 pm
BillShanks @BillShanks
Braves non-roster invitees for spring: Ryan Buchter, Yohan Flande, Sean Gilmartin, Dusty Hughes, Daniel Rodriguez, JR Graham, Wirfin Obispo
Bat Masterson
January 10th, 2013
2:38 pm
At any rate, I like the logo & hope Bonds never makes the HOF.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
2:39 pm
JIM BOWDEN @JimBowdenESPNxm
If I had a vote…this would be my 2014 HOF ballot: Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Bagwell, Biggio, Schilling, Morris
our clean guys w/ those cheaters…
TennesseePaul
January 10th, 2013
2:39 pm
Gaylord Perry was not a first ballot hall of famer.
Brava
January 10th, 2013
2:40 pm
JIM BOWDEN @JimBowdenESPNxm
Billy Wagner just told us in his opinion Craig Biggio definitely should have been inducted in the Hall of Fame yesterday #SXM
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
2:40 pm
BillShanks @BillShanks
Continued… Gus Schlosser, Luis De La Cruz, Evan Gattis, Matt Kennelly, Matt Pagnozzi, Braeden Schlehuber, Jose Yepez, Nick Ahmed..
BillShanks @BillShanks
Continued… Blake DeWitt, Joe Leonard, Todd Cunningham, Joe Terdoslavich and Jordan Parraz. 21 total non-roster invitees to big league camp
Nice group. Show up big please Cunningham, Terdo, Ahmed, and Graham…. interested in Gilmartin the nole too
DAP
January 10th, 2013
2:41 pm
why is tim raines such an obvious HOFer?
Shaun
January 10th, 2013
2:42 pm
ncscoots, the irony is that I wouldn’t mind Jack Morris being in. It’s the Hall of Fame, and I wouldn’t mind it being about fame, literally, in addition to performance.
But there is just no way to objectively say that Morris’s performance should get him in, unless you think guys like David Wells, Tim Wakefield and Mickey Lolich should get in.
Brian Kenny did an excellent job comparing Lolich to Morris. Similar regular seasons and Lolich was a better postseason pitcher, essentially.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
2:42 pm
Kevin McAlpin @KevinMcAlpin
#Braves non-roster pitcher invitees (cont’d): Gus Schlosser & Alex Wood.
Shanks missed Wood…. real interested in him too, guy was $$ lights out at Rome this year. Looked really good.
Shaun
January 10th, 2013
2:44 pm
why is tim raines such an obvious HOFer?
Because his career and peak value are plenty good enough.
Murph
January 10th, 2013
2:44 pm
Maddux and Glavine will both get in next year… and I’d bet that they are it. Maybe Thomas, too, but I seriously doubt that they’ll elect more than 3 players for the HoF in a single year.
Bat Masterson
January 10th, 2013
2:44 pm
I seem to recall some disquiet, at the time, regarding Perry’s HOF admittance
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
2:44 pm
and yet I sincerely doubt that anyone did NOT know about Perry’s ball doctoring.
If Perry had thrown as many spitters as people often accuse, they’d still be wiping up saliva in ML parks.
What folks forget is that just the possibility of being thrown a spitter messed with hitters’ heads. That’s no different than putting into the hitter’s head that you might throw a changeup in a fastball count. That happens to be not illegal.
Perry was brilliant in that way. He ran through the same set of fidgeting on every pitch and hitters out-thought themselves in the box. This, boys and girls, is the art of pitching. The fact is that, once Perry had placed in the minds of hitters that he could throw them a loaded pitch, he didn’t have to load up. And, in the vast majority of his pitches, he didn’t.
Murph
January 10th, 2013
2:49 pm
How many voters are still around who voted back in the year that Perry got elected? Any way to know this?
Seems that’s the only way to lend any credence to Shaun’s hypothesis that voters view Bonds’ cheating as deplorable and Perry’s as charming.
If a voter voted for Perry but against Bonds… well, then you’re on to something Shaun.
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
2:50 pm
I seem to recall some disquiet, at the time, regarding Perry’s HOF admittance
Retired in 83, not admitted until 91. So, third or fourth ballot, I guess. But I didn’t see any of the then-current HOF boycotting the induction ceremony for him. Bob Feller and Warren Spahn probably didn’t care much for it, though.
raleighbravefan
January 10th, 2013
2:51 pm
Gaylord Perry waited several years to get in, exactly because of the “doctored ball” issue. Many writers refused to vote for him. In the end, his record (over 300 wins, Cy young award in both leagues), won out. hat, and the fact that he was one of baseball’s best pitchers of his era, doctoring or not. He never really admitted to regularly doctoring the ball, but joked about wanting the other team to be thinking about it. He was actually caught ONCE (I believe), and was thrown out of that game…near the end of his career.
I will admit that my opinion is skewed. Gaylord was a good ole boy from eastern NC (peanut farmer), and at the time I was a big Giants fan due to him, Juan Marichal, the Alou brothers, andof course, my personal hero and greatest all around player of all time, Willie Mays.
Shaun
January 10th, 2013
2:51 pm
I’ve never changed on Gattis. It seems to me he’s best suited for a part-time roll unless he proves himself as a major league catcher. But I don’t think he would absolutely kill at team in leftfield. Said team would just need to have plenty of offense in other areas.
A Willingham-type player is probably the absolute best we can hope for. But a player slightly better than Eric Hinske is probably what we’ll get.
DAP
January 10th, 2013
2:52 pm
shaun why is tim raines such an obvious HOFer?
Because his career and peak value are plenty good enough.
thats pretty vague and non informative. was checking his stats, wondering why you(and others ive read) think he is such an easy pick. for someone like me who weighs WAR and OPS+ fairly lightly in the equation, i dont see it.
Bat Masterson
January 10th, 2013
2:57 pm
I’ve never changed on Gattis.
Maybe not. But then again, if memory serves, you claimed he was in no way a prospect and could not play in the outfield, period. Seems you said if he could the Braves would have put him in centerfield.
Mikega1965
January 10th, 2013
2:58 pm
Comparing Rome stats
Heyward 449 AB .323-11-52 .388 .871
Freeman 491 AB .316-18-95 .378 .899
Gattis 338 AB .322-22-71 .386 .986
raleighbravefan
January 10th, 2013
2:58 pm
scoots at 2:44 – Pretty much what I’ve been trying to say about Perry.
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
2:59 pm
Most here know I’m a baseball history fan, and thus the Jackie Robinson Dodgers hold a special place for me. And Preacher Roe is probably my all-time favorite “character” on those teams:
Although Roe achieved notice for a spitball, he had a variation that was perfectly legal — his fake spitball. One time, pitching against the Boston Braves’ Jim Russell, Roe went to his cap repeatedly. Each time Roe did that, Russell stepped out of the batter’s box. After this went on three or four times, Roe threw the ball. As he recalled it to Roger Kahn in “The Boys of Summer” (Harper & Row, 1971): “He’s waiting for that good hard drop. I touch the visor and throw a big slow curve. He was so wound up he couldn’t swing. But he spit at the ball as it went by.”
Efrim
January 10th, 2013
3:02 pm
Not sure if this was posted, but Keith Law ranked his Top 25 players under age 25 and the Braves got FOUR players on that list:
#3 Jason Heyward
#19 Freddie Freeman
#21 Andrelton Simmons
#23 Craig Kimbrel
DAP
January 10th, 2013
3:03 pm
im sorry to go back to dale murphy on every HOF discussion, but i just wonder how shaun can think murphy is a borderline case but raines is an easy in. if someone thinks murphy is borderline, i can deal with that. but to think murphy is borderline and raines is definitely worthy (or rice, or dawson) doesnt make sense to me.
and i dont understand why raines can be worth so much more WAR than murphy, although his stats, in general, are worse.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
3:05 pm
Mark Bowman @mlbbowman
Braves list Joe Terdoslavich as an OF on list of non-roster invites. Further indication his days as a 3B could be complete. Likely 1B/OF
Man, if he could win the LF job… .315/.372/.480/.852
Efrim
January 10th, 2013
3:05 pm
Full List:
1. Mike Trout
2. Bryce Harper
3. Jason Heyward
4. Giancarlo Stanton
5. Stephen Strasburg
6. Clayton Kershaw
7. Manny Machado
8. Starlin Castro
9. Madison Bumgarner
10. Elvis Andrus
11. Brett Lawrie
12. Salvador Perez
13. Aroldis Chapman
14. Matt Moore
15. Jarrod Parker
16. Chris Sale
17. Matt Harvey
18. Anthony Rizzo
19. Freddie Freeman
20. Yasmani Grandal
21. Andrelton Simmons
22. Will Middlebrooks
23. Craig Kimbrel
24. Eric Hosmer
25. Chris Tillman
Bat Masterson
January 10th, 2013
3:05 pm
Not sure if this was posted, but Keith Law ranked his Top 25 players under age 25 and the Braves got FOUR players on that list:
#3 Jason Heyward
#19 Freddie Freeman
#21 Andrelton Simmons
#23 Craig Kimbrel
Well it’s not listed in the order they will be leaving the team is it? Heyward, Kimbrell, Freeman, Simmons
Murph
January 10th, 2013
3:06 pm
Not sure if this was posted, but Keith Law ranked his Top 25 players under age 25 and the Braves got FOUR players on that list
Pretty special to have 3 of them in the everyday lineup. No worry about sophomore slumps this year, these guys are going to take over.
Efrim
January 10th, 2013
3:07 pm
Braves list Joe Terdoslavich as an OF on list of non-roster invites. Further indication his days as a 3B could be complete. Likely 1B/OF
So, he’s a bench bat. Which is pretty much what everyone except the Braves said from day one.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
3:07 pm
2. Bryce Harper
3. Jason Heyward
4. Giancarlo Stanton
Switch 2-4…. then 3-4 are flip flop, both about equal to me
Murph
January 10th, 2013
3:08 pm
Man, if he could win the LF job… .315/.372/.480/.852
Ummmmm… remember what happened when they moved him up last year?
.180/.252/.263/.515
Hugo Z Hackenbush
January 10th, 2013
3:08 pm
His autobiography will be entitled “Terd in the Outfield.” (damn, I thought I had the willpower to avoid stuff like this!)
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
3:10 pm
So, he’s a bench bat.
Wouldn’t mind that…. backup 1B, switch hitter w/ contact ability. Probably hard for him to move past Mejia and Schafer/Georgie though for that last bench spot
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
3:10 pm
No worry about sophomore slumps this year, these guys are going to take over.
Let’s hope Heyward and Freeman used the offseason to remember how to hit LHP, then.
TennesseePaul
January 10th, 2013
3:11 pm
Seems you said if he could the Braves would have put him in centerfield
No, what he had stated was, Gattis isn’t any good, and if he were good, the Braves would have moved him to the outfield sooner. Like, perhaps while he was on his pilgrimage in his late teen’s and early 20s. As it was, Gattis was “too old” and therefore not much more than a bench bat. That has been altered to, he’ll be a bench bat but he could be very good… and he’ll be serviceable in the outfield.
It has changed in only one way, that the range of possible outcome has expanded considerably over the last 12 months.
Efrim
January 10th, 2013
3:11 pm
Law shotened this list. It used to be Top 50 25 years old or under……but, ya know, then guys like Polished are on the list, and really, is that necessary?
Bat Masterson
January 10th, 2013
3:12 pm
Let’s hope Heyward and Freeman used the offseason to remember how to hit LHP, then.
Looking forward to this……..
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
3:12 pm
Ummmmm… remember what happened when they moved him up last year?
.180/.252/.263/.515
shhhh… A+ to AAA and moved to 3B… much better now. The fact that he went to the level he should have been at and started raking again is a good sign to me
Murph
January 10th, 2013
3:12 pm
Let’s hope Heyward and Freeman used the offseason to remember how to hit LHP, then.
Ain’t no thing but a chicken wing.
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
3:14 pm
Gattis’ projection] has changed in only one way, that the range of possible outcome has expanded considerably over the last 12 months.
In that particular universe, that’s the same as now calling him a perennial All-Star.
Efrim
January 10th, 2013
3:14 pm
Quick movie note: I saw Looper last Friday night and absolutely loved it. One of the better sci-fi films I’ve seen in recent memory and an absolute gem of a screenplay. I was hoping it would get some Oscar love for Best Picture – however it did not, which I suppose is understandable given the genre.
Murph
January 10th, 2013
3:15 pm
shhhh… A+ to AAA and moved to 3B… much better now.
We’ll see how he does at AAA this season… pretty much a zero percent chance he wins a job out of ST.
Efrim
January 10th, 2013
3:16 pm
Jason (NJ)
Could you rank these 3 Atlanta pitchers on future value? Assuming good health for all. Beachy, Medlin and Minor?
Klaw (1:46 PM)
Medlen, Beachy, Minor, assuming Beachy comes back healthy.
Sounds right to me.
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
3:16 pm
Ain’t no thing but a chicken wing.
Roger-dodger, cool codger.
Here’s hoping they light up LHP like a NASA night launch.
RC
January 10th, 2013
3:17 pm
2. Bryce Harper
3. Jason Heyward
4. Giancarlo Stanton
I think Harper being 20 while the other two are 23 probably has something to do with it. It’s pretty much semantics anyway….all 3 are studs.
Efrim
January 10th, 2013
3:18 pm
Klaw (2:02 PM)
Stats-oriented folks say: These eight players get in because of facts X, Y, and Z. Yesterday, the BBWAA said: No one gets in because screw you.
Heee.
Bat Masterson
January 10th, 2013
3:19 pm
.300/.400/.500+ for Heyward
.300/.360/.480 for Freeman
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
3:21 pm
.300/.400/.500+ for Heyward
That OBP man…. after going .329 the last 2 years… wow, that’d be a jump! Would be glad to see that though…
It’s pretty much semantics anyway….all 3 are studs.
Yep… I’m just glad we’ve got 1 of them
Bat Masterson
January 10th, 2013
3:25 pm
after going .329 the last 2 years
So you’ve said. How about some context? What’s happened for the last two years?
RC
January 10th, 2013
3:25 pm
Two things about Law’s list jump out at me:
1. Hard to believe that Simmons is only one year younger than Elvis Andrus. The Tex trade (version 1.0) still hurts.
2. Also hard to believe that Starlin Castro is younger then Heyward, Stanton, etc. Seems like he’s been around forever.
Efrim
January 10th, 2013
3:26 pm
If I’m grouping that list:
1. Mike Trout
2. Bryce Harper
3. Jason Heyward
4. Giancarlo Stanton
5. Stephen Strasburg
6. Clayton Kershaw
That’s my cream of the crop right there.
He also had additional names in no particular order that just missed:
Others receiving consideration (in alphabetical order): Dustin Ackley, Brandon Belt, Trevor Cahill, Danny Duffy, Neftali Feliz, Starling Marte, Jesus Montero, Mike Moustakas, Jacob Turner.
I mean, how does Mike Minor not make that part of the list? Look at those 13 starts in 2013….he should be right behind Strasburg and Kershaw……………
TennesseePaul
January 10th, 2013
3:26 pm
Dude, Amazon turned on Auto-rip today. All this music should end up available through my streaming players. Must learn more. I’m sure there is a catch in there that cuts me out of this.
Efrim
January 10th, 2013
3:28 pm
2012*
Efrim
January 10th, 2013
3:30 pm
Going to see Silver Linings Playbook tomorrow night. Gotta catch some of these Oscar picks and they loaded up the awards ballots.
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
3:31 pm
That OBP man…. after going .329 the last 2 years… wow, that’d be a jump!
That would be an extra six or seven walks or hits a month, over last year. Why would you think that’s so out of line?
Bat Masterson
January 10th, 2013
3:31 pm
I mean, how does Mike Minor not make that part of the list? Look at those 13 starts in 2013… Efrim
You sound like TOBF. What did you think of DOB’s Prado contract proposal?
TennesseePaul
January 10th, 2013
3:31 pm
It frickin worked! I was watching my cloud player and bam, over 100 albums purchased via amazon.com over the last 15 years just appeared in my cloud. So sweet!
flange1, Couch, the Roku just got even more awesome.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
3:33 pm
Joe Lucia @JoeCNC
Fredi called for 73 IBB in 2011. Down to 40 in 2012. Going the right way, at least, right around league average
What’s happened for the last two years?
Yeah, he was hurt last in 2011, but his 2012 OBP wasn’t great either… .335… OBP for power
Efrim
January 10th, 2013
3:34 pm
What did you think of DOB’s Prado contract proposal?
What was it?
Murph
January 10th, 2013
3:35 pm
Dude, Amazon turned on Auto-rip today. All this music should end up available through my streaming players. Must learn more. I’m sure there is a catch in there that cuts me out of this.>/i>
It only works for CD’s bought from Amazon, right?
Bat Masterson
January 10th, 2013
3:39 pm
I’m just thinking aloud here, but maybe the Braves could sign Prado to a deal that includes a salary for 2013 roughly the same as what they’d pay in arb anyway (about $7.7 million through arbitration) then salaries of $10 million or so in the next 2-3 years. Or use a few million bucks of the $8 million or more they have left in their payroll this winter and give Prado something like $9 million-$10 million for each of the next three seasons.
Otherwise, it sure seems risky to sign Prado for just one year and then have him have the type of season he’s had in two of the past three years, in which case he might command a larger free-agent deal on the open market next winter. _ David O’Brien
TennesseePaul
January 10th, 2013
3:40 pm
Murph, correct. If you have ever bought a CD from Amazon.com it will automatically be in your cloud.
Some will not, as they are working on the licensing agreements with the labels on an ongoing basis. But not more than 15 minutes before my first post, it was on. Stuff I bought way back at the turn of the millennium just showed up in the cloud.
Carroll Rogers
January 10th, 2013
3:41 pm
story is up on non-roster invitees to spring training, FYI! hey y’all
http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2013/01/10/gattis-graham-among-spring-training-non-roster-invitees/
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
3:47 pm
PCR in a month. Holy smoke.
Bat Masterson
January 10th, 2013
3:49 pm
but his 2012 OBP wasn’t great either… .335… OBP for power
Maybe so. But, then again, he went into last year with a retooled swing that he had just started to work on in the winter. So maybe he just wanted to swing the bat. O’Brien commented recently that Heyward is the observant type, a valuable trait in my book. Watch and learn, so maybe this year Heyward marries his good eye/ plate discipline with his new elevate the ball swing and becomes a sure enough star.
Murph
January 10th, 2013
3:49 pm
I must have never purchased any CD’s from Amazon as I just launched the cloud player and had no AutoRip songs.
Bummer.
Efrim
January 10th, 2013
3:51 pm
Bat, based on the salaries given to players on the open market this year and Prado’s ability to play third base – I think he is line for a five year deal when he hits the open market NEXT offseason. If he has a .800 type year, I think some large market team or team with cash will offer him five years, $55-60 million to play third base for his age 30-34 year old seasons. At least that’s the way I thought it through after this past offseason of crazy spending. Meaning, for the Braves to lock him up, we’re talking a six year offer in the range of $60-$65 million.
Last season, I thought a four year contract offer(three year extension) was reasonable for him in the $38 million range. No way his agent should take that now that he is a year away from free agency and seeing these prices. Not with Angel Pagan getting four years, $40 million and knowing that third base absolutely stinks across the sport. Timing and age has a lot to do with this stuff. Prado is in a tough place as is McCann. And the Braves are a mis-market team. Not quite the same when we are talking Heyward negotiations. A 23 year old player three years away from free agency and lined up to potentially get TWO large contracts in his career. This is it for Martin Prado.
Hugo Z Hackenbush
January 10th, 2013
3:52 pm
Joe (Norfolk)
Even though steroids might not have had any effect on performance, does the fact that players tried to cheat matter to you?
Klaw
(1:34 PM)
No.
I guess this means that “attempted murder” is no big deal, as well.
DAP
January 10th, 2013
3:54 pm
well hey there, carroll!
ncscoots
January 10th, 2013
3:56 pm
Watch and learn, so maybe this year Heyward marries his good eye/ plate discipline with his new elevate the ball swing and becomes a sure enough star.
It also pays to remember his low floor against LHP last year, and compare it to his rookie year. Not as if he hasn’t shown that he can at least hold his own against lefties, in the past. He gets back to that .250-.260 against lefties, your projections for him come into focus a little more.
Murph
January 10th, 2013
3:56 pm
And the Braves are a mis-market team.
Touche
Bat Masterson
January 10th, 2013
4:00 pm
Last season, I thought a four year contract offer(three year extension) was reasonable for him in the $38 million range. Efrim
I remember and it seemed reasonable. I remember you had Heyward in the 5 year $42m range too. I’ve seen some Heyward at 6/82 lately.
Murph
January 10th, 2013
4:11 pm
My Amazon.com AutoRip MP3’s just appeared… pretty sweet! Gotta love instant access to 500+ MP3’s out of nowhere.
Efrim
January 10th, 2013
4:12 pm
I’ve seen some Heyward at 6/82 lately.
Yeesh. Six years, $75 million is the highest I’d like to go(and I still think that is too high, more like six years, $63 million)). But who are we kidding, Braves need to keep some of these guys. In fact, they really, really need to keep those position players because there isn’t much on the farm as of right now. Much emphasis on keeping the bats because their replacements aren’t getting a Atlanta Brave paycheck as of right now.
Efrim
January 10th, 2013
4:15 pm
And I really just look at his projected arbitration salaries: 2013 – $4 million, 2014 – $8 million, 2015 – $12 million and then add $13 million a year to that afterwards. That first number is a bit high by like $500K, but they usually go a tad higher to get them locked in. Rockies went really high with Carlos Gonzalez to lock him into a long term deal – which made sense since Boras is his agent and he wasn’t agreeing to a huge team friendly contract.
Bat Masterson
January 10th, 2013
4:16 pm
Not as if he hasn’t shown that he can at least hold his own against lefties, in the past. _ scoots
True. Take them up the middle, or the other way, when they work him away.
Bat Masterson
January 10th, 2013
4:21 pm
Gonna be interesting to see what is said in the next few weeks about extensions. It’s all crazy …..monopoly money
Coach (2013, Is the future now?)
January 10th, 2013
4:46 pm
Meanwhile the Cubbies just snatched up Brent Lillibridge (minor league contract), while our 40 man consists of the likes of Jose Constanza and Ramiro Pena. So my confidence level in Frank Wren’s roster construction abilities just went down a few notches………….
kenhotlanta
January 10th, 2013
4:51 pm
Coach, why? We dispatched Lil’ Bridge several years ago and he has bounced around since then. I bet Wes Helms is prolly available, too.
kenhotlanta
January 10th, 2013
4:52 pm
I know I’m late to the party, but here’s my 2-cents: I think most writers just didn’t know what to do this year, but I see a slow melting of the steroids issue and players like Bonds and Clemens will eventually get in, but maybe not in our lifetime. LOL. There are too many deserving candidates to vote in the next few years and then the steroid users who were never caught might start to trickle in.
I can also envision a changing of the rules to maybe create a special section for those suspected of use, plus maybe players like Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson.
nolie
January 10th, 2013
4:57 pm
f you cheat you are a slimeball, we are simply deciding on your price for selling your soul, at least the PEDers got great return, the speed users sold out for a lot less…..
Joachim Gilman
January 10th, 2013
5:01 pm
Lillibridge of the career slash line of: .213/.278/.350/.628 and an OPS+ of 68?
Makes Constanza’s career line of: .281/.332/.341/.672 and an OPS+ of 84 look impressive in comparison.
kenhotlanta
January 10th, 2013
5:05 pm
And how do you account for corked and pine tar bats, doctored baseballs by the catchers or players when they threw the ball back to the pitcher, Ty Cobb and others sharpening their spikes, speed, coke, and who knows what else was used back in the day? Where does it stop and start?
Coach (2013, Is the future now?)
January 10th, 2013
5:09 pm
Lillibridge has five years of service time in the big leagues, he’s a legit big league ballplayer. Constanza is quad A material at best. So somehow I won’t be surprised when Lillibridge makes the Cubbies 25 man while Constanza is banished back to the minor leagues.
VaBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
5:10 pm
Keith Law ranks Heyward 3rd for Top 25 of 25 and younger.
Current: The shoulder injury and the defensive, groundball-generating swing that came from it are both things of the past now, as Heyward finally restored his pre-injury swing in late May/early June and showed the power — slugging .506 from June 1 onward — expected of him when he was the game’s top prospect heading into 2010. He’s also become the NL’s best defensive right fielder.
Future: The patience he showed as a rookie wasn’t as evident in 2012, but when he brings that together with the rediscovered power, he’ll be among the top half-dozen or so players in the league. Getting his manager to bat him higher in the lineup, preferably second rather than sixth or seventh, might be Heyward’s biggest challenge going forward, as he’s among Atlanta’s top offensive weapons now that he’s full healthy again.
VaBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
5:12 pm
19th Freeman
Current: Freeman has had two very solid, nearly identical seasons in the majors that established him as a solid-average but unspectacular everyday first baseman, with a mediocre batting eye and slightly above-average power, along with above-average glove work at first. He dealt with a scratched cornea for part of the first half of 2012, and played slightly better, with more power, after the problem was resolved.
Future: I like Freeman but don’t see him as having the same ceiling as the other first basemen on this list, guys with better bat speed or more power. On the other hand, Freeman has a pretty high established level of performance in the majors, isn’t futile against lefties, and might be headed for an uptick in production now that the cornea issue is behind him.
VaBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
5:13 pm
21st Simmons
Current: He’s the best defensive shortstop in the majors, period. Simmons is an 80 defender (on the 20-80 scouting scale) with an 80 arm — he was up to 98 mph as a pitcher in junior college, but most evaluators didn’t think he’d hit. He’s made plenty of contact since entering pro ball and did enough of that in limited major-league time last year to make himself more than just a defensive specialist.
Future: The hope here is that he turns into Elvis Andrus. Simmons is already Andrus’ superior with the glove, but the low-walks, low-power approach at the plate that still resulted in high batting averages in the minors is no lock to do the same in the majors. Simmons’ swing is long and his pitch recognition isn’t great, so maybe he never becomes a big walker, but if he can post .360-plus OBPs with his glove he’ll be a down-ballot MVP candidate in many years.
VaBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
5:14 pm
23rd Kimbrel
Current: It doesn’t get much better than what Kimbrel did in 63 innings last year unless you’re willing to think outside the one-reliever, one-inning box. Kimbrel’s stuff is absolutely filthy, and the turnaround in his control is remarkable: In 2009, he threw 60 minor-league innings and walked 45 guys, but in 2012, he threw 63 innings and walked just 14.
Future: It doesn’t get much better than this, and it won’t. But enjoy it while it lasts, because Kimbrel’s stats, at least on a per-inning or per-batter basis, are historic, and credit of manager Fredi Gonzalez — he backed off last season after working Kimbrel and Atlanta’s setup guys way too hard in 2011.
nolie
January 10th, 2013
5:21 pm
Lillibridge one had a great 200 at bats in a great hitters park, and folks like coach will be lusting after him for years no matter that he has stunk the rest of the time
kenhotlanta
January 10th, 2013
5:22 pm
Coach, the object is to improve our team…how does Lil’ Bridge make us better? He might help the Cubs, but we are a lot better team than the Cubbies, so I think our sights should be set a little higher.
jfp
January 10th, 2013
5:24 pm
nolie and shaun, you both have valid points about cheating. If we were talking legality, then there would be some form of punishment for all cheaters who were caught. Even then the gray area would come into play and each would be punished according to the law. The BBWAA has made a statement with this years vote and it’s pretty obvious they are sending a message and it’s a shame people like Biggio and Bags have to suffer because of it. Some of the voters are right on with their voting and it appears that others are clueless. On XM Sirrius, they interviewed a female (hate to say that because there are a lot of good female writers, Carroll is one of the best) writer that was trying to explain her votes. She only voted for 2 of the top 16 vote getters. Voted for Shawn Green saying he was the face of the franchise and that was her reason. Voted for Kenny Lofton over Tim Raines saying he deserved a hall vote. Was asked if she thought Lofton should be ahead of Raines and evaded the question again not saying Lofton should get in before Raines, just that he deserved a Hall vote. Didn’t seem to realize that if you vote for one and not the other, it kind of says you believe the one you voted for deserves to be in before the other. Only voted for 6 players and 4 won’t even be on the ballot next year. Now I realize this not the norm but it’s sad that someone with no clue can vote while the folks who played the game and probably have a better understanding of it have no say at all. The voting process needs to be revised. I don’t personally know what kind of changes need to be made but I would like to think that current members of the HOF should have a vote. That would be the only change that I could see from afar. Bonds and Clemens were 2 of the greatest baseball players to play the game and personally I didn’t care for either. It would be a shame if they don’t get in at some point. The same goes for Pete Rose, I didn’t care for him either, but he definitely had a HOF career as a player. That’s my opinion and doesn’t make it right. Just like the statement the BBWAA made this year in the voting, just because they made a stand doesn’t make it right either.
nolie
January 10th, 2013
5:27 pm
I’m not talking legal, I am talking moral which is what the outrage is usually all about. as far as moral, cheating is cheating is cheating
but i also have no problem with them getting into the HOF either
nolie
January 10th, 2013
5:33 pm
I was seeing the guys cheat with speed, if they had PEDs they would have used them. no difference at all really;and for years baseball obviously had no cares that stats were being rewritten because of them.
jfp
January 10th, 2013
5:38 pm
If it hadn’t been for 2 guys beatin Maris’ record in the same year and another topping that later, PEDs still might not be a problem.
jfp
January 10th, 2013
5:41 pm
nolie, I agree that cheating is cheating and that if roids were available earlier, they would have been used. There would just be different people in the conversations.
Lew
January 10th, 2013
5:58 pm
I wonder how many of us used amphetamines as study aids in college? Do we have to give our degrees back?
Lee in S GA
January 10th, 2013
6:00 pm
Otis Nixon stole a lot of bases on coke (not talking about the one u drink) …and dropped off the next season…not defending the cheaters but heck I can’t say I would not have done anything of it would have improved my performance as a player, if I was a player, and could have afforded WHATEVER (which is the most annoying word these days by the way)
CB
January 10th, 2013
6:13 pm
Lew,you probably used plenty of No Doz in college. I know I sure did. LOL
chipl1960
January 10th, 2013
6:19 pm
good point Lew. I shutter to think what my GPA would have been without some “boost”. This whole PED issue has so, so many angles and what ifs about it, I doubt the stain of it will ever be removed from MLB.
chipl1960
January 10th, 2013
6:23 pm
I heard on XM this morning an ex-player talking about a pitcher who threw 88-89 range and came into camp throwing 96= due to an “off season workout regimen”. Everyone knew of examples just like this with both hitters and pitchers and turned a blind eye to it. No one is blameless in this if they saw it going on and did nothing.
chipl1960
January 10th, 2013
6:24 pm
I heard on XM this morning an ex-player talking about a pitcher who threw 88-89 range and came into camp throwing 96+ due to an “off season workout regimen”. Everyone knew of examples just like this with both hitters and pitchers and turned a blind eye to it. No one is blameless in this if they saw it going on and did nothing.
jfp
January 10th, 2013
6:25 pm
Lew, I was too afraid to use anything when I was coming along. Too many horror stories and was so caught up in playing other sports and trying to stay in shape.
Murph
January 10th, 2013
6:25 pm
If Bonds and company belong in the HoF, fine, but put them in posthumously after their steroid use cuts their lives short by 20+ years.
They should never get the thrill of giving an induction speech in front of current HoF members and baseball fans from around the world.
jfp
January 10th, 2013
6:34 pm
Murph, can’t imagine wanted to hear anything either of those had to say. The steroid issue closed that door, although I didn’t really like either before the steroids. Clemens throwing the bat at Piazza said enough about his attitude for me.
VaBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
6:37 pm
Appears the Rangers will have interest in Michael Bourn if his market and demands start to come down. also you could say the same for there interest in Justin Upton. To note, Money isn’t a issue in Texas and they also have arguably the best farm system in baseball as well… Would be pretty crazy to see Bourn’s market fall down to a contract that the Braves would consider, after all teams don’t have to offer squat. Who know’s what Bourn’s current offers are… After all he’s a guy who’s game is all about Speed and he’s 30 years old… Is it possible he doesn’t do better than BJ? At this point that could very well be the case.
Already been reported they made a offer headlined by 3B Mike Olt + Top Pitching Prospect + Lesser Prospect. So even a prospect rich team as Texas isn’t gonna overboard to land him. At this point Arizona really needs to trade a Outfielder unless they wanna roll with Cody Ross in CF and keep there CF prospect Adam Eaton in AAA. So between Jason Kubel and Justin one will likely be gone. Kubel a older veteran who had a career year power wise is likely in the same boat as Josh Willingham, teams just dont wanna offer much for a older unathletic guy. Plus if he were to be traded they’d be very RH heavy in the lineup. Upton would of course bring a much better return.
Pretty interesting how Bourn and JUpton’s winter has been up to this point. Wouldn’t count the Braves out for either of them, but I wouldn’t put us as favorites either. Also still have to wonder about Dexter Fowler and if the Rockies will lower there demands still.
jfp
January 10th, 2013
6:46 pm
VaBravesFan, I believe you are right. Don’t believe the Braves are favorites for either of those 2. Trading for Upton would be just like signing another free agent for a 3 year deal, reasonable this year but gets more expensive the next 2. It would be hard to justify spending that much and losing prospects to boot.
Nick
January 10th, 2013
6:48 pm
Not sure why the Rox wouldn’t take Delgado for Fowler. Delgado would immediately become their ace.
VaBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
7:00 pm
Rockies asked for Mike Minor + Teheran or Delgado, they’d have to come way down. Wren’s not trading Mike Minor. He might consider a swap with Teh or Del but I don’t see Wren going anymore than that.
When it comes to Justin Upton (Who I’m a Huge Fan of) the Braves won’t be able to outbid the Rangers. I think if the Braves made a good enough offer to get the DBacks close to a deal that the Rangers would swoop in and cave and offer more. We also know that the Mariners have a ton of interest in Justin and have the youngins to land him BUT Seattle is on his No-Trade List. So it’s not happening.
Back to Bourn… Makes you wonder what Wren originally offered to keep him in Atlanta. I would guess 4 years 50-55 million in that ballpark. Also seen some grumbling about Boras seeking a 6 to possibly 8 year deal for Bourn easily upwards of 15 million a season. All teams needing a CF have passed on the speedster who also comes with loss of draft pick and now The Rangers and Braves have both said they’d be interested in market fell farther and so on… Who does that leave? Does he have to pick between a bunch of offers he doesn’t like? Who knows how this will end.
BartBuzz
January 10th, 2013
7:01 pm
So nice to see Scott Boras fail. Obviously the Braves made the right decision.
nolie
January 10th, 2013
7:03 pm
I wonder how many of us used amphetamines as study aids in college? Do we have to give our degrees back?…Lew
no but if you used PEDs, you would have to….
Brava
January 10th, 2013
7:05 pm
Ken Rosenthal @Ken_Rosenthal
Sources: #Dbacks’ Justin Upton invoked his no-trade rights to reject a deal to the #Mariners. Story with @jonmorosi: http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/justin-upton-seattle-mariners-no-trade-clause-texas-rangers-atlanta-braves-still-interested-011013 …
Brava
January 10th, 2013
7:08 pm
Nick Piecoro @nickpiecoro
Can confirm report by @Ken_Rosenthal and @jonmorosi. Told package from Mariners was “substantial” but Upton blocked the deal.
VaBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
7:08 pm
While I think Bourn is gonna get a nice Fat contract still, I wouldn’t understand why. So many teams passed on him. There isn’t a lot of fits now. Why would any team now offer a huge contract? Any kind of bidding war at this point would have to be BS posturing and fiction you’d think. Some how he’ll get a really good deal likely higher than BJ’s… lol
Nick
January 10th, 2013
7:10 pm
The only 3 teams I could see Bourn going to at this point is Texas, Seattle, and the Cubs.
nolie
January 10th, 2013
7:15 pm
nobody wants to play and hit in Seattle if they can help it
VaBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
7:19 pm
By the time the Cubs or Mariners are fighting for a playoff spot Bourn would likely be 33 years old..
Also factor in the Mariner’s might not be a good fit with there most recent bust in Chone Figgins. Also I think they’d have to make a great offer to convince Bourn into signing. One way to get paid big money. But with the Cubs and there situation it doesn’t make sense to spend a huge amount in the middle of a rebuild, Texas doesn’t wanna overpay either. I’m sure Boras will somehow stir the pot and get things heating up.
ncbravesfan90
January 10th, 2013
7:25 pm
Justin Upton is holding out that he can be traded to Atlanta to play LF next to his brother. They have talked about loving to be able to play together on the same team. Ken Rosenthal says Texas and Atlanta in on Justin Upton.
Nick
January 10th, 2013
7:30 pm
Justin Upton is a Ranger.
Juan
January 10th, 2013
7:45 pm
Come on Kevin Tower….Ahmed….Delgado….Gilmartin is not enouch?…
brian
January 10th, 2013
7:45 pm
It wouldn’t surprise me if Justin Upton became a Brave and Mike, excuse me, Giancarlo Stanton eventually became a Ranger.
If I were the Rangers I would offer Andrus, Olt, and Perez for Stanton now with Profar moving into the starting SS role for the Rangers. Rangers need to make a splash.
I just don’t see how Miami can move Stanton in the next year. He is their one remaining star. THe Marlins should do everything they can to make the team better and revolve the team around Stanton. If they don’t it will not matter how much money they offer Stanton, he will not sign there long term.
brian
January 10th, 2013
7:46 pm
Ahmed, Delgado, and Gilmartin would be about all I would offer for Justin Upton
Juan
January 10th, 2013
7:50 pm
That right brian….Justin will say no until Braves deal come thru
VaBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
7:52 pm
brian
I think Texas would have to give up more to land Stanton.. More like this… Atleast a 5 man package
OF Leonys Martin
3B Mike Olt
SS Jurickson Profar
LHP Martin Perez
C Jorge Alfaro
VaBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
7:56 pm
Juan
Nope, Texas Rangers are not on Upton’s no trade list. If Texas offers want the DBacks want there is nothing Justin can do except pack his bags.
ncbravesfan90
January 10th, 2013
7:59 pm
Pretty much what i was trying to say earlier….
Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS
1 team Justin Upton would welcome is #braves, where his brother signed. Fortuitous seattle was 1 of the 4 on no-trade list
BFChris28
January 10th, 2013
8:02 pm
I am still holding out hope and still feel Justin could be headed to Atlanta
Seattle Braves
January 10th, 2013
8:02 pm
Justin turned down a sweet deal to seattle. Arizona looked to be getting what it wanted. But Justin dosent want to to down grade to a lesser team than arizona and vetoed the trade. Maybe he is saying I want to play for a contender and with my brother???
Dang it Wren, lets get it done. TRADE FOR JUSTIN UPTON.
Him being teamed up with his brother, is a solid start after the Chipper Era.
Think about it.
nolie
January 10th, 2013
8:03 pm
Justin can not keep saying no, except for the three other teams on his no-trade list
Brava
January 10th, 2013
8:03 pm
Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS
1 team Justin Upton would welcome is #braves, where his brother signed. Fortuitous seattle was 1 of the 4 on no-trade list
nolie
January 10th, 2013
8:04 pm
for one thing he knows that his numbers would take a huge hit in Seattle from ‘zona and thus his free agent value would decrease noticeably
ggs
January 10th, 2013
8:06 pm
What is Frank Wren waiting on? This team has the potential to be outstanding offensively if we will only get a legitimate LF. My first choice was Alex Gordon which is obviously not going to happen so Justin Upton is certainly worth going after.The Braves have enough prospects to make this happen.
Seattle Braves
January 10th, 2013
8:08 pm
Maybe this is a ploy to get a deal done with another team?
I hope its Atlanta and not Texas….
ncbravesfan90
January 10th, 2013
8:08 pm
“Justin can not keep saying no, except for the three other teams on his no-trade list”
True but the 3 teams that were really in on Upton are Texas, Seattle, and Atlanta. With that we had a 33.3% chance to acquire him if we proposed a trade. Now our chances are 50%, with Texas and Atlanta being the two most serious suitors, now that Seattle is out.
nolie
January 10th, 2013
8:08 pm
he is waiting on a deal that makes sense, he ios aware that Justin is not worth giving up too much for, unlike many excitement-starved fans here
VaBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
8:08 pm
I think Wren was BSing when he said he hasn’t talked to Towers in quite some time. Really think this will be between the Rangers and Braves. Justin of course prefers Atlanta, but Texas has more to offer. With now everyone knowing that the DBacks actually agreed to a trade I think alot of teams will be checking back in again. DBacks likely have lowered there asking price but now that teams know they are serious about moving him it could get the price back higher again with more teams involved pretty interesting events tonight. I’d love to see him in Atlanta for the right price.
nolie
January 10th, 2013
8:11 pm
lotsa folks here believing what they want to I see. don’t get too upset if you are reading things incorrectly because of what you want to have happen. Hope is a killer y’know….
VaBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
8:13 pm
I really think Towers wants Texas to dive back in this big time. They can outbid anyone if they want. Wren will have a tough time getting him without overpaying.
VaBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
8:14 pm
jcrasnick Jerry Crasnick
It’s hard to see how #dbacks can go to spring training with Justin Upton. Talk about a strained relationship.
VaBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
8:14 pm
jcrasnick Jerry Crasnick
But it’s not easy trading a young player of that magnitude in late January. They’ve really boxed themselves into a corner.
VaBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
8:16 pm
jcrasnick Jerry Crasnick
#Mariners, #bluejays, #redsox and #cubs are the 4 teams on Upton’s no-trade list. This deal was never gonna work.
Brava
January 10th, 2013
8:16 pm
@jcrasnick: #Mariners, #bluejays, #redsox and #cubs are the 4 teams on Upton’s no-trade list. This deal was never gonna work.
Seattle Braves
January 10th, 2013
8:16 pm
We got to see probably the greatest trio of pitchers of all time. Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz. Braves have the potential to have one of the most outstanding Trio of Outfielders in Baseball EVER! BJ Upton, Heyward, and Justin Upton. Ofcourse this is the possibility of the best Outfield seen in some time. ALL THREE could make the All-Star game, When was the last time that the entire outfield from one team made the ALL_STAR Game in the same year.
Im loving this, If this happeneds…
VaBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
8:24 pm
I’d still temper expectations if we did land Justin Upton. Alot of questions about how he’ll do out of Arizona and so on. My main concern is his power. Seems to be up and down, but his OBP has been consistent. He’d still be a big upgrade in my opinion.
Hopefully he can even out his yearly production. Which I think he will.
2009 899 OPS
2010 799 OPS
2011 898 OPS
2012 783 OPS
But to note he produced a 355 OBP or better in all 4 years.
VaBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
8:28 pm
A 355 OBP would represent our 3rd best OBP in 2012 only behind Chipper and Prado. Also when we look at our current roster Justin’s career OBP of 357 would be the best of active Braves. Also his 117 OPS+ is tied for best.
ChattTownBrian
January 10th, 2013
8:34 pm
Get it done, Frank! Bring JU to ATL with his big bro!
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
8:34 pm
I’ll be looking forward to seeing Heyward regain some of the patience he showed in 2010…. I wanna go 6/70 with him, if it’s gonna be more like 6/85, he needs to have that!
Come on Frankie, get Justin. Teheran, Peraza, a LHRP… maybe Juan as well. Let’s go!
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
8:35 pm
Joe Lucia @JoeCNC
The deal Towers agreed to was Furbush, Pryor, Franklin, and one of Walker/Paxton/Hultzen
Joe Lucia @JoeCNC
The Braves can easily match that. EASILY.
yep
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
8:37 pm
let’s get the better brother
David O'Brien
January 10th, 2013
8:37 pm
If Minor hadn’t missed the age cutoff by a couple of weeks, Braves could’ve had 5 players on Keith Law’s top 25 under age 25. Law made note of fact Minor barely missed the cutoff (he turned 25 on Dec. 26).
BFChris28
January 10th, 2013
8:39 pm
Come on Wren!!!!!!
Do it!!!!
DOOOOOOOOOOOO ITTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!
Hugo Z Hackenbush
January 10th, 2013
8:40 pm
I wish I could sell a used car to some of you boneheads…
ncbravesfan90
January 10th, 2013
8:42 pm
“I wish I could sell a used car to some of you boneheads…”
I wouldnt overvalue my trade-in (Prospects) though…
BFChris28
January 10th, 2013
8:46 pm
Ahmed, Delgado or Teheran, Gilmartin or Spruill & EOF (being as Walden is better against LHP, EOF would be expendable since he’s due a raise or is about to be a FA) would be a fair deal.
VaBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
8:46 pm
Just goes to show that no matter who Wren could pick up not everyone would be happy about it. After getting BJ Upton for 75 million, kinda seems like a good time to go “All In”. We have the money and have enough prospects. Always thought Wren should do it from the start anyways. Go Big.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
8:49 pm
EOF would be expendable– Hey Lew!!!!
LOL, agree with ya Chris, been pounding that since we got Walden… great against lefties, better than righties than EOF, throws hard and is cheap. Move him for something.
Teheran, EOF/JV, Peraza or Ahmed, Gilmartin or Spruill, and possibly throw in Juan. That has to be better than the deal the Ms offered that Towers agreed to.
Lane Kiffin
January 10th, 2013
8:51 pm
Just got back from walking William and Mary
Lane Kiffin
January 10th, 2013
8:53 pm
Jordan Schafter starting in LF opening day and batting leadoff.
Hugo Z Hackenbush
January 10th, 2013
8:53 pm
Yes Kiffin, that joke never gets old…
BFChris28
January 10th, 2013
8:54 pm
I am adamant about getting Justin Upton because it won’t be another Tex deal. Firstly, Justin is under a decent/fair contract for three years, so it wouldn’t be a rental. It would boost attendance and gives Braves more revenue and possibly boost payroll and then Justin playing on the same team as his brother would give him incentive along with BJ to perform extremely well.
Soph
January 10th, 2013
8:55 pm
I hope better days are a’comin for UNC. No me gusta losing.
Hugo Z Hackenbush
January 10th, 2013
8:56 pm
Uh, if somebody needs his brother on the team to play well, that doesn’t sound too promising…
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
8:58 pm
25 years old, a stud… who knows, maybe extend him another 2 years to keep him on the same time table as Melvin… lots of potential, a true slugger to hit 4th for us… with the youth on our team, we can afford to make this move prospectwise, we have time to accumulate some more depth.
BFChris28
January 10th, 2013
9:00 pm
Hugo Z Hackenbush
I didn’t mean it that way. I’m just saying that he’d be comfortable playing on the same team with his brother and would have incentive to play well with the new team, because obviously he’s not going to be incensed to play well for his current team who’s clearly made it known they don’t truly want him around.
Soph
January 10th, 2013
9:01 pm
Bossman Jr better put his big boy pants on and play his heart out because little bro is probably not going to be next to him on Opening Day.
Horn's dad
January 10th, 2013
9:03 pm
What’s Frank Wren waiting on? It’s obvious that Justin Upton wants to play with his brother! Frank needs to get off his lazy butt and make Kevin Towers an offer!!
Lane Kiffin
January 10th, 2013
9:05 pm
Not a joke Hugo. Lf will be either, Jordan, Georgie or Reed Johnson.
I know there are some on this blog who enjoy going through the old blogs and repeating what has been posted before so here is something for them to post after opening day.
cabravesfan
January 10th, 2013
9:06 pm
Hi Sopheee
Hugo Z Hackenbush
January 10th, 2013
9:07 pm
I certainly agree that Upton’s position with the Dbacks is compromised now. They’ve managed to screw this up royally. Wren should play hardball with these buffoons.
Lane Kiffin
January 10th, 2013
9:07 pm
And they really hate it when someone does it to them.
Hugo Z Hackenbush
January 10th, 2013
9:08 pm
I was referring to the William and Mary joke, lk.
Soph
January 10th, 2013
9:09 pm
Hey cab, whatcha think? Will little Upton be in a Braves uni this season?
cabravesfan
January 10th, 2013
9:10 pm
Sopheee-
Depends on what Wren is willing to give up, and mainly on what Towers is willing to take…I’m still leaning toward “no”
Lane Kiffin
January 10th, 2013
9:11 pm
Spot on Hugo.
Lane Kiffin
January 10th, 2013
9:13 pm
Could you imagine the crying from the Upton haters if Wren signed Justin.
Soph
January 10th, 2013
9:14 pm
Could you imagine the crying from the Upton haters if Wren signed Justin.
Paging double George.
Lane Kiffin
January 10th, 2013
9:17 pm
Certainly Justin would make this a stronger team, just don’t see it happening.
Lane Kiffin
January 10th, 2013
9:20 pm
We can always hope. Would be a great outfield for years and allow Prado to stay at third.
David O'Brien
January 10th, 2013
9:21 pm
Interesting proposals for redevelopment project in the less-than-thriving area around Turner Field. Hopefully it gets done. The Braves really need something to happen like this.
http://www.ajc.com/news/business/visions-pitched-for-turner-field-parking-lots/nTsPT/
Hugo Z Hackenbush
January 10th, 2013
9:25 pm
Yes! A ferris wheel!
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
9:26 pm
George just cares about average lol… Justin is over .250, near .280.
nolie
January 10th, 2013
9:26 pm
I do not believe that the addition of Upton would boost attendance, winning might boost attendance
Hugo Z Hackenbush
January 10th, 2013
9:28 pm
I think the ferris wheel will boost attendance. A giant merry-go-round will put it over the top!
BFChris28
January 10th, 2013
9:31 pm
nolie
Having both Uptons in the same OF with Heyward, that would increase attendance based on that alone. It’s something not often seen in baseball having family members in the same lineup, much less same team.
cabravesfan
January 10th, 2013
9:31 pm
Ferris wheels are creepy
Efrim
January 10th, 2013
9:35 pm
Ken Rosenthal@Ken_Rosenthal Sources: #Mariners offered four players for #DBacks’ Upton. One of Walker/Hultzen/Paxton, plus Franklin and Furbush, then Pryor or another.
Paxton shouldn’t even really be grouped with Walker and Hultzen. Taijuan Walker is a Top 10 overall prospect in the sport and possibly the best RHP prospect aside from Bundy. Franklin is a legit SS prospect – one of the better ones in the minors. Furbush and Pryor are reliever pitchers/prospects.
I wouldn’t trade Walker if I were the M’s. No way. But Hultzen, Franklin, Furbush, Pryor is a pretty good offer – especially for a player that you have no plans on keeping.
Towers isn’t getting much for Kubel – just like Rizzo isn’t getting much for Morse. Of course, Towers probably helped the market for outfielders with one year of control by giving up Bauer for one year of Shin Soo Choo(who went to the Reds in a 3 way). I still do not believe Kubel will be traded. The signing of Cody friggin Ross was a clear indicator they had plans to trade Justin Upton.
Bravoman
January 10th, 2013
9:38 pm
DOB,
Would trading for Justin Upton limit the Braves ability to sign Prado and Heyward long-term?
Maybe we could have enough payroll with the new TV money coming in…
nolie
January 10th, 2013
9:38 pm
nah, not unless they win, otherwise nobody will care very quickly
Efrim
January 10th, 2013
9:43 pm
David O’Brien @ajcbraves
If Minor hadn’t missed the age cutoff by a couple of weeks, #Braves could’ve had 5 players on Keith Law’s top 25 under age 25
Talented group of young major league players with few elite level prospects currently in the farm system. Make a play for that impact player via trade.
Sucks that Bossman and Justin are brothers. Something weird about them playing together. I don’t know, just would worry how that would effect them – even though I’m really not sure how it would and if I were Wren, probably wouldn’t risk it.
But anyway, the major league roster was ripe to add to with another middle of the order RH LF. So I do get why Wren would have interest in Justin Upton. Just not sure of the fit…..
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 10th, 2013
9:46 pm
nope… got 27mil coming off from McCann, Maholm, and Hudson. We would need a catcher and maybe a pitcher… plus the new tv money kicks in (though we may not use much)
Hugo Z Hackenbush
January 10th, 2013
9:47 pm
Chocolate-chip cookie vodka is creepy!
cabravesfan
January 10th, 2013
9:48 pm
Hugo-
It’s wonderful!