Bourn back to Braves? Rumor mill gets a spin

Comment From Mike
Can the Braves afford to go into 2013 with a Reed Johnson/Juan Francisco platoon? And will they?

12:37
Dave Cameron: No.

Lord, I hope he’s right.

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@ Nunna… we can’t be the Atlanta Possums. We would get killed at home and play dead on the road. We would never win any games, unless at a neutral site.

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ive already given you a break by not even mentioning the fact that you suggested a right fielder, when the parameters were specifically and 3B or LF!

Ha! ( :

That was totally in line with my initial reading of your comment, and my glossing over the fine print, which apparently also includes restrictions on player positioning and movement on the field.

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Shaun … “…illicit outrage…”

Is this outrage over all things illicit? Like inappropriate spanking?

Or, are you saying that the outrage itself is somehow out of bounds? For instance,

“A man went to a fight and a hockey game broke out. The crowd mooned the players in a display of illicit outrage.”

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I commented last night, regarding movies. I didn’t see a whole lot of movies this year but it’s hard to imagine there were that many better movies than Flight. It instantly became one of my favorite movies. Such a compelling story.

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DOB Will Clyburn and Lucious worry you at all tonight? George Niang will be giving your Jayhaws fits for the next 4 years, real solid freshamn!

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I can’t figure how you can project W-L. I’m assuming there is some runs scored/runs against model and the ERA gives the projection.

Maholm’s 4.00 seems a little high. Guy’s had some good seasons and some bad seasons. But, he seems like a career 3.5+ ERA guy.

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abeeeewright, “elicit,” I obviously meant. Sorry. The person I hire just to edit my comments has the day off.

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If Gattis is the best option, I suspect he’ll be out there from day one. I don’t think he necessarily has to have a “break-out” spring, though that would help

He needs to avoid a “break-down” spring.

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Maholm’s is close to a 3.80 in my opinion… career 4.26, had a 4.48 up until age 28, 3.66 the last 2 years

3.80, 9-11 wins

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If nothing further transpires, the Braves will enter ST in 2013 with a better team than they entered in 2012.

The team that finished 2012 was better than the team right now. But, there’s a long season for the Braves to make improvements and resolve uncertainties.

Braves entered ST in 2012 with Hanson, Jurrjens, and Pastornicky as question marks. Hanson came through OK, but the other two were replaced by Medlen and Simmons by the end of the season.

Hudson entered ST having had back surgery and was a huge question mark.

Chipper entered ST and promptly announced his retirement at the end of the season, a season which he started on the DL.

Minor was competing with Teheran and Delgado for fifth starter and almost said, “Play me or trade me.”

Somehow, Livan Hernandez was added to the Braves roster. I’m not sure what gap he was intended to fill, but clearly there was one. And I don’t mean a sacrifice to the cursed locker or a gap in the buffet line.

Vizcaino blew out his elbow and the search was on to replace him. Wren finished ST with a last, desperate dumpster dive that surfaced with … “Gas Can” Durbin (who proved to be a valuable find by the end of the season).

Braves enter ST 2013 with …
1. Delgado/Teheran as fifth starter
2. Francisco at 3B and Prado at LF? Prado at 3B and platoon in LF?

Braves have Maholm and Johnson instead of Hanson and Hinske.

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NashvilleBravesFan..11:07 was on point. I agree that Wren has done a very good job.

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dschoenfield David Schoenfield
BBWAA has elected one center fielder since Willie Mays retired (Puckett). Only seven all time.
14 minutes ago

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Haven’t seen Gattis a lot, but he really looks solid at the plate from what I’ve seen. He has been able to adjust at every level he has played and that is so important in the Majors. Probably the one thing that has kept Frenchy from reaching his potential.

On Baseball America’s podcast, their guys threw a Josh Willingham comp on Gattis. I think that’s about right, from everything I’ve heard and read, though I wouldn’t bet on him being quite as good as Willingham at his best. I would say something like Hinske or Willingham, perhaps with a little more athleticism.

I think Frenchy’s problem is probably more to do with pitch recognition and lack of plate discipline without overwhelming power. Josh Hamilton has shown you can get by without all that much plate discipline and aggressiveness at the plate if you have something close to 80 power (though you need some discipline. See Juan Francisco). And I think pitch recognition and plate discipline is something that can’t be honed all that much once a player is at the age of most professionals.

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After much thought, here is how I would like the Brave’s lineup to play out (as it stands with current players). Also, I’m not claiming this will be the opening day lineup, but rather what I hope to see once all of our rooks and new signings have settled in (I’m also throwing McCann in Beachy in there when they’re finally healthy). You should also keep in mind that I hated Dan Uggla the minute we traded for him:

Batting:
Prado 2B
Simmons SS
Heyward RF
Upton CF
Freeman 1B
McCann C
Gattis LF
Francisco 3B

Pitching:
Hudson
Maholm
Medlen
Minor
Beachy (only because he would come back mid season is he 5th)

I feel like moving Prado back to second base (He’s played over 200 games there), and benching the worst player on the team (Uggla), opens up a world of new options for the Braves’ lineup, and I’m baffled as to why this hasn’t at least been a consideration when things inevitably go poorly for Uggla. I’d hate to have to platoon Prado b/t third and left, making it a three man rotation between Prado, Johnson, and Francisco. To me this would only lend itself to inconsistency since neither Johnson or Francisco would be able to get into any sort of rhythm since they would be bouncing between the starting line-up and situational hitting roles, and if guys get hurt we need both of them to be comfortable facing righties and lefties.

Guys like Gattis and Francisco, if they keep up their winter league play, deserve a shot to play. Especially Gattis who, despite him being a mid 20’s rookie, has all the potential in the world to become another dynamic hitter in the lineup and possibly the natural clean-up hitter the Braves haven’t really had since the Gary Sheffield and Andruw Jones days around 2002 and 2003. If I had to pick one to start it would be Gattis though. The guy is a stud and can’t be ignored much longer, the only reason this guy isn’t already our left fielder was because he was away from baseball early in his career, but now he’s back and crackin homers like its batting practice (not to mention he hit over .300 last year in the minors and in winter ball thus far).

Again, this lineup is my perfect world assuming our guys keep up their winter league play and everyone else stays relatively healthy and keep on improving the way they have in seasons past (Freeman and Heyward mainly). No one will ever convince me Uggla is a good start, or roster spot, for the Braves. With the addition of Upton (which I like), Uggla’s stats/recent playing ability becomes an ever more toxic presence in the lineup since Uggla has already mirrored what our worst fear is for Upton.

With this roster the Braves can save their $8mil cap space for next season/trade deadline/all the arb eligible players we have coming up that we MUST resign. And at the same time we plan for the future, hopefully this time the right way with young all-stars in the field, starting rotation, and bullpen.

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HOF…..MURPH and CRIME DOG

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Several years ago, I posted on this here blog that I felt that Martin Prado would be a good addition to the roster. I felt at the time that he would make a good second baseman. Of course, I was told by multiple bloggers that I was crazy. I feel that Gattis could be a solid addition to the Atlanta roster. He would play left field, spot catch and maybe learn another position to spell other player like first base. Flexibility is huge in this day and age.

On a side note, Prado will not start at second base over Dan Uggla. He is being payed too much to sit the bench. If Prado ends up starting at second, Uggla has been traded or released.

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Shaun – I would be happy is Gattis is the RH version of Klesko in LF. Is that being too optimistic?

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Very informative, just one humble opinion……how about adding this choice to your survey options…..
“I don’t mind it (the 60’s era logo), but its from a time gone past and I can certainly see how it is borderline offensive to Native Americans and at the very best insensitive.”

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Is Juan Francisco still limited to only playing 1st or 3rd? I always heard it was because of his weight and we are now hearing he has lost weight and is working out.

I know Prado is a great defensive outfielder, but I keep seeing him as the proven solution at 3rd. That and Freeman at 1st would leave little playing time to Francisco as a reserve corner infielder.

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Recovery period 8-12 months.

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““Crimson Tide” sounds like an ocean full of blood…what atrocity or mass killing are they celebrating and why aren’t more people upset over this “mascot”?”

It’s a type of algae which makes the ocean look like it’s full of blood. I don’t know how many people are upset, but I’ve done an unscientific poll of billions of the organism and they’re up in arms.

Well, they would be if they had arms.

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JIM BOWDEN ‏@JimBowdenESPNxm
What’s obvious now is that next Hall of Famer voted in will be Greg Maddux in 2014

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Mark Bowman ‏@mlbbowman
Dale Murphy received 18.6 percent of the votes during his final year on the HOF ballot. That was his highest total since 2000. #Braves

Good for him

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WOW that’s sad, no HOF’ers. DOB when was the last time someone with 3000 hits and no problems on or off the field did not get in on their first try?

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I don’t know if this will work, so I apologize in advance if this posts incorrectly. I want to post a table but have no idea if I can, so here goes.

I railed on Frenchy also, but he has had an 8 year ML career so far. Then I thought about looking at his numbers, and comparing them to BJ’s 8 year career so far, in 162 game averages:

table.tableizer-table {
border: 1px solid #CCC; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12px;
}
.tableizer-table td {
padding: 4px;
margin: 3px;
border: 1px solid #ccc;
}
.tableizer-table th {
background-color: #104E8B;
color: #FFF;
font-weight: bold;
}

Name/StatsRH2B3BHRRBIBBKOBPSLG
Francoeur76164343198534119310426
Upton90153343207572171336422
Diff-141100-110-38-52-264

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You thought it was “about right” when Law threw Gattis as a 4th outfielder AAAA player. Good to see even the mighty Gattis can move up in your standings.

I think the term Law used was “bench bat.” I don’t think that assessment is wrong, either. It’s clear he’ll hit enough to hold his own in the majors. But who knows if he’ll hit enough to make up for his defensive efficiencies. Willingham is a good comp, but it’s not clear yet whether Gattis has quite the hitting abilities as Willingham. He has the power, if not more. But can he handle higher-level pitching to the degree that he produces like a Willingham or a Klesko? I think he can handle higher-level pitching. It’s just a matter of whether he can handle it to the degree that he’s a good leftfielder or just an okay one that maybe shouldn’t play every day.

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Sorry about MURPH. If there was a good guys HOF he’d be unanimous.

Thanks rich! You know, I try to be as good a … oh. Oh, I see.

Nevermind.

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Oh well, I guess it didn’t work, sorry about that.

I was comparing Frenchy to BJ, per http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/francje02.shtml and http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/u/uptonbj01.shtml:

For a 162 game average, Frenchy scores 14 runs less per season, has 11 more hits, even on double and triples, 1 less HR, 10 more RBIs, 38 less walks, and 52 less Ks. The 162 game average for BA, OBP, and SLG are close to being even.

I don’t see teams lining up to give Frenchy 5/$75, yet his numbers are comparable to BJs.

Disclaimer: I didn’t go into WAR, BABIP, and all of those other deeper stats for this comparison.

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DAP
January 9th, 2013
10:24 am,

Read the article. Upton makes 8-9 million next year, then 10 million the following 2 years. It said the Braves can squeeze that into the payroll if need be. Justin Upton has all the potential in the world to be a impact player for us, more so than Francisco IMO.

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Baseball Hall of Fame is a complete joke

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The HOF votes please me. Well done. Well done.

19 players fall off the ballot. All first timers with the exception of Bernie Williams, his second year.

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Pleases me too TP… no one really deserves it.

a very good defensive 1st baseman

Freddie? Average. Little range, scoops about the same or just slightly better than any other 1B.

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richbrave, I think the thing with Simmons is that he doesn’t have to hit that much to provide plenty of value. With Gattis he can only provide value in the batter’s box. He doesn’t have defensive skills at a key defensive position to fall back on.

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I think the term Law used was “bench bat.” I don’t think that assessment is wrong, either

So you think being assessed as a 25 HR hitting, 125 OPS+ starting outfielder is the same as a “bench bat?”

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Sosa (12.5 percent) can forget it.
–DOB

As can Palmeiro (8.8%). With the players coming up next year and in future years, I don’t see him being able to squeeze in… I find it hard to see him lingering on the ballot for long.

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TennesseePaul, personally I think Gattis is a poor man’s Josh Willingham. Willingham is a decent comp, as far as type of player, but I think Willingham’s production is a best-case scenario.

Personally I think Gattis will be somewhere between Hinske and Willingham, perhaps closer to Hinske but better than Hinske.

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Personally I think Gattis will be somewhere between Hinske and Willingham

Don’t put yourself out there too much, Payne. Some where between an .830, 25 HR a year 125 OPS+ hitter, and a pinch hitter. You have narrowed it down, so much it should be hard for him to nail that bulls-eye. I had him pegged for some where between greatest player ever or minor league scrub/roster filler.

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I think Gattis will be somewhere between Hinske and Willingham

Not hard to beat the Hinske we had in Atlanta the last couple years lol…

I’m really disappointed that Bonds got as many votes as he did.

Yea… afraid he’ll get in before too long, like within the next 5-7 years.

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I’m really disappointed that Bonds got as many votes as he did.

And Clemens. Would have loved to have seen those two loitering around the drop off threshold like McGwire has.

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Gattis strikes out much less than Willingham or Hinske. He is also known for being a clutch hitter, which, I guess, Hinske was known for (before last year). His defense potential is still unknown as he is learning left field and hasn’t even had enough time behind the plate to assess his ceiling. He does have a good arm and decent range and will most likely get some assists in LF.

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“Why should we care at all? Good question. You, in fact, may not care. But this one of 570 or so is my ballot. I do care. One reason is the “character clause” in the voting instructions, something that many writers and observers have mangled out of shape in Cirque du Soleil acrobatics to excuse steroid users. The label “character clause” has become a pejorative. No such title exists. The instructions say only, “Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”

Forget the racists and scoundrels comparison. Here’s my issue with steroid users as it relates to the “character clause:” it’s about how they played the game between the lines, not how they conducted themselves outside of it. It’s an issue of competitive integrity, not personal integrity. They bastardized baseball, eroded the implicit fairness of it and disadvantaged those who chose to play fairly to extents never seen before.
”
–Verducci

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abeeeewright: D)

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Forget the racists and scoundrels comparison. Here’s my issue with steroid users as it relates to the “character clause:” it’s about how they played the game between the lines, not how they conducted themselves outside of it. It’s an issue of competitive integrity, not personal integrity. They bastardized baseball, eroded the implicit fairness of it and disadvantaged those who chose to play fairly to extents never seen before.

1) There were PEDs in the game even before steroids.

2) Other types of cheating, besides PED use, has largely been ignored if not charming to plenty of voters.

3) Gambling definitely “bastardized baseball, eroded the implicit fairness of it and disadvantaged those who chose to play fairly.” But there are plenty of Hall of Famers who consorted with gamblers, knew gambling was going on and chose to do nothing.

4) Not standing up against rascism also “bastardized baseball, eroded the implicit fairness of it and disadvantaged those who [wanted] to play fairly” (namely the best black players who wanted their chance).

The character clause is applied inconsistently, therefore it’s hard to take the Hall all that serious.

All this is about writers taking a stand to feel good about themselves. If they thought about it, they would realize this is the first time in history that voters have been concerned with the bastardization of baseball, eroding fairness, etc.

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You conveniently left off the part, “closer to Hinske but better than Hinske” because it didn’t fit your criticism. Funny how that works.

The “ball park” comparison included such a large swath of potential production… from Willingham to Hinske… from a starting outfielder who hits .830, 25HR a year, 125 OPS+, to a bench player/pinch hitter. Even if it is “closer to Hinske” as you cling to, you could brought the top of that Grand Canyon size projection down considerably further from Josh Willingham.

That is the criticism, Payne. I didn’t “leave off” anything to make it fit.

It could also be stated that Gattis is probably going to be somewhere between Babe Ruth or Charles Thomas, but probably closer to Charles Thomas than Babe Ruth. That doesn’t make the “comp” any better. It’s still entirely meaningless, and is essentially another way of stating: “I don’t think he’ll be good, but I don’t know.”

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This idea that baseball was once pure and steroids completely ruined it is self-serving to some of the writers who want to make a moral stand or is something some writers believe because they don’t want to have to think about how context relates to statistics, they just want certain statistics to mean more than they actually do and they don’t want to have to do much digging in to context as it relates to statistics.

There are plenty of things in baseball’s past that were as bad or far worse than steroid use by players, as far as compromising the game’s integrity, fairness and bastardized the game, things that were/are never considered in Hall of Fame voting.

Some writers are more bothered by steroids because it a) makes them look moral and b) it means they can’t just mindlessly look at stats, but they have to consider stats and context and actually have to think through the stats and what’s behind them.

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1) There were PEDs in the game even before steroids. So that justifies steroid (mis)use?

2) Other types of cheating, besides PED use, has largely been ignored if not charming to plenty of voters. Be more specific on your “charming” accusation. And because other types of cheating have been ignored means that steroid cheating should be given a pass?

3) Gambling definitely “bastardized baseball, eroded the implicit fairness of it and disadvantaged those who chose to play fairly.” But there are plenty of Hall of Famers who consorted with gamblers, knew gambling was going on and chose to do nothing. That makes what they did right? And because some bad apples got into the Hall that means others should be permitted in?

4) Not standing up against rascism also “bastardized baseball, eroded the implicit fairness of it and disadvantaged those who [wanted] to play fairly” (namely the best black players who wanted their chance). Different times, different context, but in, I believe, 1948 the Brooklyn Dodgers took a giant step in ending racial discrimination in the majors by bringing up Jackie Robinson. That’s a huge breakthrough and shouldn’t be downplayed. Major League Baseball helped pioneer the end of racial discrimination in America.

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This idea that baseball was once….

How did you get to that from: Starting at the end of last year’s vote, I’ve never cared less about the Hall of Fame than I have since then

Are you starting to care more again? If not, why do you insist on continued commenting on the topic you care so little about?

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