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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
1,547 comments Add your comment
Richard Nieh
January 9th, 2013
7:52 am
I don’t mind just let Prado playing LF if Juan can really hit at the third.
His number this winter is exceptional. Power and average.
old man
January 9th, 2013
7:55 am
Mr. Maggot: Amen to you sir.
Iluvnutella
January 9th, 2013
8:08 am
Bourne, Upton 1-2 in lineup…talk about producing runs….r u kidding me?
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
8:09 am
Incidentally, I think if you actually researched it, you would find that the Notre Dame logo is offensive to many of Irish descent.
– From DOB’s post.
Huh? You have to dig awfully deep to find anyone of Irish descent who’s offended by the Fighting Irish’s mascot. A big part of my heritage is Irish and I’m not the least bit offended the leprechaun.
As I said in a previous post, using Indian monikers in sports and the military is a tribute to First Americans (not native, since any of us born on these shores are natives). Sports teams that have traditionally used Indian names and logos, I think, are suggesting bravery and fighting spirit, which hardly denigrates American Indians.
Couch Tater
January 9th, 2013
8:16 am
Twitter has created many profound changes in sports and the way they are reported and discussed. Inspiring rational, measured reactions is not one of those changes. – DOB
15 minutes of flame.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
8:18 am
Yeah, I agree that Bourn will probably not be back here. Upton is interesting, but I really want to sign Prado, Heyward, Freeman, Medlen and Kimbrel to long term deals.
Boras will still find a good deal for Bourn – somehow – and it won’t be in Atlanta. Justin Upton – whatever his value is to the Braves, Kevin Towers is one of the biggest jerks in an executive ’s job in baseball. As I recall, Towers was a bit devious in his dealings with Wren for Jake Peavy’s services. And weren’t the Peavy negotiations between Towers and Wren leaked to the media?
northbeach Scott
January 9th, 2013
8:20 am
This entire to do over the laughing Indian logo is silly. It does not offend me as I am a white guy and I grew up with that logo as a young Braves fan in the 1960’s. so while I personally do not care, I can understand why this reintroduction might be offensive to some, therefore, let’s take the smart and sensitive path and not bring it back.
I suspect this leak was a planned trial balloon by MLB and the Braves, and that the prudent course is the plausible deniability angle, of not releasing it and not acknowledging that it was a serious option.
The Truth....
January 9th, 2013
8:26 am
Gosh dang…This team has a chance to be really good….IF the front office will do their job! Make a move, get a quality player in LF!! This is why this team gets no respect! FRONT OFFICE BUMS!
Karl Marx
January 9th, 2013
8:27 am
Comrades, the Cincinnati Reds should change their name.
“Reds” is insulting to communists when the name if affiliated with an American capitalistic entity operating out of Cincinnati, Ohio, in business for the sole purpose of profitting off the fans who spend their meager wages on a rich man’s hobby.
Frank Wren
January 9th, 2013
8:32 am
“Make a move, get a quality player in LF!! ” – The Truth …
Why do you think I brought back Jordan Schafer? Fredi says he’s been tearing the hide off the ball in the simulated games we’ve had this winter @ Turner Field.
flange1
January 9th, 2013
8:32 am
I personally have no issues with the laughing/screaming Brave logo. It is the logo that I grew up with.
But if the logo offends folks, no reason to have it.
Same with the old GA flag. The old flag was the one I had all my life, it did not bother me, but it bothered other folks, so I was for the change to a new flag.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
8:35 am
This entire to do over the laughing Indian logo is silly. It does not offend me as I am a white guy and I grew up with that logo as a young Braves fan in the 1960’s. so while I personally do not care, I can understand why this reintroduction might be offensive to some, therefore, let’s take the smart and sensitive path and not bring it back.
Let’s just take the line of least resistance and scrub society clean of any and all symbols, monikers – you name it – that purportedly offends this or that group (or more likely, a very small activist segment within a group that isn’t necessarily reflective of the larger cohort).
But where does that stop, huh? Maybe the Atlanta Falcons should drop their team name, what say? After all, there are some very touchy animal rights groups in the country who might not like that Falcons or Hawks or Lions or Tigers (endangered) or Sting Rays or Eagles and on and on are being exploited by sports teams.
And, pray tell, why are the New England Patriots getting away with calling themselves “patriots?” I don’t live in New England but I consider myself a patriot. Why should a football team in one section of the nation claim to be patriots and exclude other NFL teams from using the very same name, since their are patriots in the south, Midwest, and west? Unfair, don’t you think?
northbeach Scott
January 9th, 2013
8:35 am
You arm chair GMs are funny. I hope you do not negotiate in business or in everyday life as idiotically as you advocate on the blog. If you do, then you must either be very young/inexperienced, or just plain stupid.
In this twitter/ ADHD world of demanding instant gratification in all facets of life, those of us that are a bit wiser and more patient will “take your eyes.”
Wren is shrewd in showing patience to let the market come to him an if it does not, then he has internal options. Should either fail, Wren can and will make mid-season roster changes,
old man
January 9th, 2013
8:36 am
Fielding stats are fickle, but here is my favorite:
Rtot/yr — Total Zone Total Fielding Runs Above Avg per 1,200 Inn. The number of runs above or below average the fielder was worth per 1,200 Innings (approx 135 games). This number combines the Rtz, Rdp, Rof, Rcatch numbers into a total defensive contribution. Provided by BaseballProjection.com
Here are some career numbers. I know at least one is a small sample size, but it sure confirms what we saw on the field last year:
Prado, LF, +11
Prado, SS, +8 (2012, +11)
Prado, 3B, +1
Prado, 2B, -2
Bourn, CF, +10
BJ Upton, CF, +9
Andrelton Simmons, SS, +45
Uggla, 2B, -5 (2011, -10; 2012, +8)
Heyward, RF, +14
McCann, C, -3
Juan Francisco, 3B, -9 (2012, -1)
Reed Johnson, LF, +12
I’m surprised by:
How well Reed Johnson does in LF. How relatively poor Prado is at 3B, compared to LF, or even SS. How close BJ has been to Bourn, over their careers. Not surprised by Andrelton. Numbers confirm he is a stud.
Mr Maggot
January 9th, 2013
8:37 am
“If I had to do a top 10 for films:…………….”
You forgot Loose Cannons, Arthur [Dudley Moore], Austin Powers–Goldmember, Michael, Groundhog Day
old man
January 9th, 2013
8:39 am
The consensus is that Francisco has an arm. Maybe if he has truly dropped some weight, he will have some range to get into a positive (i.e., above average) Rtot/yr number. At third last year, he was only slightly below average.
[Disclaimer: take all fielding stats with a grain of salt.]
Mr Maggot
January 9th, 2013
8:40 am
“I hope you do not negotiate in business or in everyday life as idiotically as you advocate on the blog.”
northbeach, I love them all like brothers, but thankfully for the health of professional sports in ATL…..this is just a playground for about 10 virtual GMs.
flange1
January 9th, 2013
8:41 am
In terms of the team for 2013, unless a one sided deal (for the Braves) or a real bargain comes up with a FA, I am on the side of doing nothing and see how the team looks in Spring Training.
The Braves have 3 young hitters (Gattis, Juan Francisco, and Ernesto Mejia) that could show the team brass that they can play.
Thee Braves currently have at least 6 candidates for 5 starting pitching spots, and have a fairly full rotation in AAA as well.
Bottom line is that there is currency for a trade if the folks fall on there face in Spring Training.
I know that there are not many significant trades in Spring Training or the early part of the season, but that does not mean that there are no trades…
And if the team can play well for the first half of the season, FW will have more options on improving the team at the All Star break when hopefully Beachy can start pitching again.
old man
January 9th, 2013
8:42 am
And, according to Rtot/yr stat, Prado over his career is a better LFer than Bourn is a CFer.
northbeach Scott
January 9th, 2013
8:46 am
@Jeff R, if the issue was about getting rid of an existing symbol like the tomahawks, I would be more inclined to agree with you. However, the laughing Brave has been retired for almost 25 years. Why bring it back knowing it is offensive to some.
The rebel in me wants to tell them to shove it, but the more sensitive me says, why bother to disturb a hornet’s nest when the high road is available. You want to be more careful in choosing the hill on which to die.
old man
January 9th, 2013
8:46 am
Prado looks like a third baseman. He does not look like a tall, rangy, LFer with a cannon arm. But according to the stats, looks are deceiving.
If I’m his agent, I going to tell him he is worth more as a FA with the LF stats he has versus his 3B stats. He will not be a Gold Glove at 3B. He was pretty close in LF last year.
Fleer
January 9th, 2013
8:46 am
You are such a douche.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
8:47 am
I think Wren will still obtain a left fielder. Plenty of off-season remaining. But Wren’s smart not to jump and give away the store. Plus, he could also make a move during the season, earlier rather than later, once teams have had a chance to shake out their rosters and eyeball on-field performances and assess needs.
Mr Maggot
January 9th, 2013
8:47 am
Jeff R, thanks for your eloquent expression of views. It is as relevant to the real issue as most of the others expressed here by middle-aged and above white people who have no real frame of reference from which to draw.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
8:51 am
Thanks for the work DOB. I appreciate it.
Bill James Projections:
Freeman: .282/.358/.481 (.839) w/ 36 doubles, 25 HR, 95 RBI
Heyward: .272/.360/.483 (.843) w/ 32 doubles, 26 HR, 82 RBI
What a hater. Obviously he doesn’t think much of Heyward or else he would have certainly projected him to be much better than that scrub Freeman.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
8:53 am
I find Sarah Jessica Parker’s existence offensive, can that remove itself from society?
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
8:54 am
However, the laughing Brave has been retired for almost 25 years. Why bring it back knowing it is offensive to some.
Because it doesn’t stop there. Just because the Tomahawk is in use by the Braves doesn’t mean it isn’t offensive to “some.”
And who are these “some?” Exactly who are they? And why are the “some” given so much power to determine outcomes that affect the many?
Most Americans, I believe, find nothing in the least offensive about the old screaming Indian moniker that the Braves suggested bringing back for their spring training caps.
Are we expected to cleanse sports and society of any and every symbol – whatever – that “some” find off-putting? Where does it stop?
old man
January 9th, 2013
8:54 am
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/tz_runs_total_lf_leagues.shtml
Last year, Prado led all MLB LFers in run value as a defensive LFer.
Coulda shoulda gotten the Gold Glove. So why does anyone, including Prado, want to move to a different position in 2013? Where his career stats are much worse?
It makes me think we should have been looking for a third baseman all along.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
8:55 am
Jeff R, thanks for your eloquent expression of views. It is as relevant to the real issue as most of the others expressed here by middle-aged and above white people who have no real frame of reference from which to draw.
Well, I do heartily endorse your moniker, Mr. Maggot. Fits perfectly.
Dadgum.....
January 9th, 2013
8:58 am
To be certain, you can bet the last dollar you got that Upton will be in CF. that was part of the deal to bring him here. I’ll take Upton over Bourn every day and twice on Sunday and I don’t care what the saber metric numbers are. I also see no plausible reason to even include Bourn in any conversation regarding any outfield position. The Braves offered and he declined. End of story. If Wren even remotely entertains bringing back Bourn he’s a fool. He’s not and he won’t.
Rock on…..DOB I enjoy your tops of 2012 lists. I saw Lincoln only because most of it was shot about 10 minutes from my house. Frankly, I thought it was boring as hell. Came away mad at myself for shelling out $8 when I could have waited and caught it on first run on the tube in a few months. Lewis will get nominated maybe even win it but that’s about it for me. Movie didn’t move me. Not my style.
old man
January 9th, 2013
9:03 am
Jeff R:
The answer to your question is “no.” The doctrine is called “laches.”
Laches (pron.: f. Old French, lachesse, “slackness”, “lassitude”) is an “unreasonable delay pursuing a right or claim…in a way that prejudices the [opposing] party”
The Braves have used the tomahawk for years, without interruption, without any fanbase objection that it is offensive, even though it might be. So any objection to it now is barred by the doctrine of laches.
Now, the Braves seek to bring something out of mothballs after many years of not relying on it for publicity or profit. They cannot argue they will be harmed by not using it, only that they will forego some new, not yet realized opportunity.
Laches is not a “legal” doctrine. It is an equitable doctrine. It is based on concepts of common sense, fairness, and equity.
Those who would object to the Tomohawk are barred by laches. Those who object to the crazy/drunk/screaming Injun are not.
northbeach Scott
January 9th, 2013
9:04 am
@Dadgum …I think you are right on Bourn and the draft pick we receive for his rejection of the offer, will mitigate the one the Braves lost when they signed Upton. At this point when baseball has rightly gone back to letting youth be a priority an also balancing costs.
Enjoyed Bourn, except for the back half of 2012. let Boras bid against another team.
Dadgum.....
January 9th, 2013
9:06 am
Old Man….we did look at third basemen. Finding an option better than we have is more rare than a Nick Saban smile. Prado is an upgrade over Chipper at 3rd. Mission accomplished. Wright or someone of his ilk would have been nice but that never got serious looks. Maybe 3rd is acquired if ST reveals a need but 3rd is really the least of our worries.
old man
January 9th, 2013
9:12 am
*correcting typo and adding clause*
Jeff R:
The answer to your question is “no.” The doctrine is called “laches.”
Laches (pron.: f. Old French, lachesse, “slackness”, “lassitude”) is an “unreasonable delay pursuing a right or claim…in a way that prejudices the [opposing] party”
The Braves have used the tomahawk for years, without interruption, without any fanbase objection that it is offensive, even though it might be. So any objection to it now is barred by the doctrine of laches.
Now, the Braves seek to bring something out of mothballs after many years of not relying on it for publicity or profit. They cannot argue they will be harmed by not using it, only that they will forego some new, not yet realized opportunity.
Laches is not a “legal” doctrine. It is an equitable doctrine. It is based on concepts of common sense, fairness, equity, and human experience.
Those who would object to the tomahawk are barred by laches. Those who object to the crazy/drunk/screaming “Injun” are not.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
9:24 am
Those who would object to the Tomahawk are barred by laches. Those who object to the crazy/drunk/screaming Injun are not.
old man, reasonable, but I would say respectfully that that’s not how the game is played in modern American society. “[C]ommon sense, fairness, and equity” have nothing to do with whether or not the screaming Indian should be dusted off or that the Braves’ Tomahawk has been in regular use for a long while. You’re assuming that the “some” are willing to play by the rules of “laches.”
This isn’t a game of common sense, fairness or equity for the “some.” It’s a game of advantage; attempting to gain and press advantage to the benefit of small activist cadres and their organizations – or so my experience teaches me.
There’s nothing derogatory about the screaming Indian moniker or the tomahawk that the Braves where proudly on their jerseys. And if you get into the mindset that “some” find those symbols offensive, hence, out of deference to them, cease using them, then I ask again: “Where does it stop?” Virtually any and every symbol used in sports or society at large can be construed by this or that group or activists as somehow offensive. I think fairness and common sense dictate that we stop pandering to the foolish demands of pressure groups.
old man
January 9th, 2013
9:24 am
The set of things you have a right to do is not equal to the set of things you can do with grace or good manners.
For many, the only questions are only whether the right exists and whether they want to do it. For example, drug companies want to warn about “an erection lasting for more than 4 hours,” during programming watched by small children. Should they? I suppose they have the right to.
Joey
January 9th, 2013
9:24 am
Man, can you imagine the numbers Murph could have put up if he HAD used PEDs?
Oh and good stuff all, DOB.
Lemke's Knuckler
January 9th, 2013
9:27 am
Bill James forgot his Evan Gattis projections…
.425, .524, 40 doubles, 68 homers, 174 RBI
I think that might put us over the top next year.
Patrick
January 9th, 2013
9:29 am
But the Braves seem to be serious and not just posturing when they say they would be comfortable going to spring training with their current roster, giving guys like Evan Gattis, Jose Constanza (and perhaps Jordan Schafer?) a shot at left-field playing time along with veteran fourth-outfielder/pinch-hitter Reed Johnson
This is A HUGE Gamble.
Really, for the long-term future of this team. I hope it fails and fails so badly that it costs Wren his job and maybe a couple of the other liars and penny-pinchers in the Front Office who like being cheap more than winning a championship.
old man
January 9th, 2013
9:30 am
Jeff R:
That is precisely how the “game” is played in America. Judges invoke the doctrine of laches every day in this country, and the parties in those cases have to play by the rule of “laches.”
I was just addressing your point that agreeing to drop the drunk Indian means we will have to drop the tomahawk as well. I think you said something like “where will it stop?” I don’t support those opposing the tomahawk or “Braves.” I oppose the drunk Indian. There is a sound and time-honored legal/equitable rule in our country which would support the existing logos, but would not protect new ones which are offensive.
old man
January 9th, 2013
9:32 am
And I know the Indian is not “new.” But the Braves dropped it for long enough that any fair minded person would consider the equivalent of new. The point is that the Braves are not harmed by not bringing it out of mothballs, versus having to drop an existing logo.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
9:35 am
old man, this isn’t a legal battle over the screaming Indian or tomahawk. In the broadest sense, it’s a political battle (please note “broadest”). The activists who oppose the screaming (where do you get “drunk”?) Indian could give two cents about the legalism. They – the some – seek to push for advantages ranging from recognition for achieving a change via their pressure to increased influence and power to financial compensation or reward. Big range.
old man, to your credit, you’re seeking to play by rules. The “some” aren’t.
Lemke's Knuckler
January 9th, 2013
9:36 am
I hope it fails and fails so badly that it costs Wren his job
You sound like a certain conservative radio talk show host.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
9:37 am
anyone who wants to give Schafer another chance…. lol. Maybe if he’s on the juice….
Yuuup
January 9th, 2013
9:37 am
beekay
January 8th, 2013
9:47 pm,
The trade route is pretty much the only way they can go at this point. Trade for someone then, if they were willing to give up Delgado for 3 months of Dempster, then they can certainly include him in a trade for someone like Justin Upton who is under contract for a few more years and would love to play with his brother. The Braves also had the chance to get someone like Span or Revere from the Twins and didn’t do it. So why is Delgado’s value so high now when it wasn’t jack crap at last years trade deadline? Just saying, the Braves could have a starting LF’er by now if they wanted one, as the off season goes on and there is only a few trade chips that make sense, the price on those guys is just going to go up. I know everyone has their own take on it, but if the Braves go into the season with a platoon at 3B and LF consisting of Francisco, Johnson, and Prado, they are in for a rough season imo.
Mr Maggot
January 9th, 2013
9:38 am
old man, good stuff. Thanks
Red Pants
January 9th, 2013
9:38 am
Two things here:
1. If those player stat projections are anywhere near accurate, we’re missing the playoffs. That being said, I seriously doubt many of the guys won’t outperform those numbers.
2. A solid list of movies, although I would have had Skyfall a few spots higher. Once you see The Dark Knight Rises, you’ll probably have to shuffle your top 5, great flick. Lincoln at 1 is hard to argue.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
9:41 am
Prado’s bat doesn’t fit for a LF though…. more of an infield bat.
but I really want to sign Prado, Heyward, Freeman, Medlen and Kimbrel to long term deals.
Year to year with Kimbrel
You know it is possible that the brothers do not necessarily want to live together again after having roomed together for the first 18 years of their lives, right?
Why do they have to live together? And it is no secret that they’d like to play together…
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
9:41 am
Prado’s bat doesn’t fit for a LF though…. more of an infield bat.
but I really want to sign Prado, Heyward, Freeman, Medlen and Kimbrel to long term deals.
Year to year with Kimbrel
You know it is possible that the brothers do not necessarily want to live together again after having roomed together for the first 18 years of their lives, right?
Why do they have to live together? And it is no secret that they’d like to play together…
Yuuup
January 9th, 2013
9:46 am
Northbeach Scott,
So if the internal options don’t work out he can always show patience and make a deal at the deadline huh? So you call us stupid? If it doesn’t work from the beginning of the season up to the deadline, do you really think the Braves will be contending for the division title, or WC at that point?
Will this deadline deal work out like the Teixiera deal? You know, where the Braves were so close and traded for a big impact bat just to miss the playoffs again? The year they traded for Teixiera, with the numbers he was putting, I bet if they had him from the get go, they probably would have made the playoffs. So again, how does being patient and waiting for the market to come to him benefit the team? The trade market has already come to him, and left. Now the guys being shopped with cost a lot, and then Wren will balk at the asking price and pass. Sorry, but if we are stupid as “Arm Chair GM’s”, you are just as dumb with your logic.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
9:46 am
the drunk Indian.
old man
January 9th, 2013
9:48 am
Jeff R:
A sincere thanks to you for the compliment–honest.
I agree this is not a legal battle. It’s a public opinion debate. But something like laches is a common sense rule that developed over centuries of some pretty smart people trying to resolve disputes in a fair way. So perhaps many on both sides of the current debate should look to it for inspiration and guidance. You might be surprised that many like me understand that symbols that have remained in use continuously are “water under the bridge.” Many people–including me–have fond memories invested in them, even though they may be offensive to some. But I want to draw the line on things which have not been in regular use over the years.
I do not agree with people who want to purge our culture of all these symbols, even though I know they may remain offensive to some. I remain “anti-Injun.”
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
9:49 am
I’m still buying the hat to match my tee. Sorry MAGGOTT. Frankly, the more the protest, the more I want it. Just consider me ill-bred and stupid. After all, you’re here. Birds of a feather, a what old chap?
Patrick
January 9th, 2013
9:49 am
How can it not do anything but anger Braves fans when your GM says that he is going to 1. Do everything he can to put a champsionship calibur team on the field. 2. Raise payroll “slightly” from what is was last season 3. Just “simply” replace 2 positions 3B/left field (depending on where Prado plays) and CF AND that he has the resources to do it (1. Money for once {which became available after his last awful free agent signing} 2. Top level players to trade).
How can no one here but anything but pissed off when Statement: 1, 2 and 3 ALL turn out to be lies!?!?!?
The teams payroll has gone down, the team is worse than last year-both on paper and talent-wise. And his cover-up is a weak one: Platoons with re-treds and bench players, or hoping that a career minor leaguer, or a minor leaguer with mental issues regarding fully committing himself to play baseball-issues that took so long to workout that he’s now too old to be considered a prospect….
This is what you think you can win with? This is what you think you can sell to your fan base as a serious formula for winning? It is insulting. Wren is trying to play us all for saps and like I said before, I hope that (if this is what truly happens the remainder of this offseason) this fails, blows up in his face and his is fired because of it.
I live in Chicago and the fans and the media CONSTANTLY and CONSISTENTLY called for the firing of Lovie Smith after two season of choking and-low and behold-he was let go. It was the right move, the Bears did the right thing. I think that the pressure they felt from the fans and the media did play a part in his firing.
I wish that Atlanta had that same fire, that same passion about the Braves. Because if this were Chicago and Wren was pulling this crap, it WOULD NOT fly! Period.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
9:50 am
TheOnlyBravesFan, yeah, I don’t know how old man interprets the Braves’ Indian as “drunk.”
I understood as a kid growing up in Atlanta that the Indian was screaming because he was on the warpath. The Braves were on the warpath to win games and make the World Series. Seems to make perfect sense.
I Know
January 9th, 2013
9:55 am
“The Braves have 3 young hitters (Gattis, Juan Francisco, and Ernesto Mejia) that could show the team brass that they can play.”
All unproven; minimal value at best. Minor league stats are okay but don’t suggest anything spectacular. Not exactly top prospects. Francisco played his way out of the Reds organization and Wren rescued him from the dumpster. He’s beyond the prospect level.
Lemke's Knuckler
January 9th, 2013
9:55 am
I was dropping my kid off at school today and driving to work and came to the conclusion that I no longer support freedom. The guy that bypasses the drop off line at school should have his tires confiscated. The guy that flicks his cigarette butt out the car window should be made to drink only from water cups filled with cigarette butts (since those butts get washed into a storm drain and eventually end up in the lakes and thus the drinking water supply, not to mention this guy will probably complain when his water rates go up because the utility has to replace intake filters more often). And most importantly, the ducks that completely block the business park entrance to my office should die, they should all die.
I don’t really believe all of that. Freedom is still better than the alternative. Just a little frustrated with selfish people…and ducks.
I Had To Say It
January 9th, 2013
9:58 am
Not surprised about Bill James’ assessment of Justin Heyward, whose numbers would be much better on a more balanced hitting team, like Detroit or Texas. As it is he’s surrounded by undisciplined fence swingers and strikeout kings like Upton and Uggla.
Heyward will never be a player that leads a team offensively.
TheOnlyBravesFan
January 9th, 2013
9:59 am
screaming or laughing… that’s how I always interpreted it
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
10:00 am
drug companies want to warn about…during programming watched by small children. Should they?
Drug companies are compelled by law to make those disclaimers. That was part of the bargain for allowing them to advertise on TV. If it were up to the desires of drug companies, they’d probably never include the side affects in a TV commercial. Similarly, paper manufactures never advertise about the possibility of paper cuts.
The drug commercial was a poor example. You are attempting to distinguish between the right to do something and the desire that others engage in that right in a fashion you deem “respectful”. Most every one would agree that such an outlook is shared, but that does not mean any one exercising their right must defer to the opinions of others. If so, at that point it ceases to be a right, it ceases being a privilege. You have effectively outlawed or banned the action in question.
Secondly, you must also look at how one is exercising this right. Is it an action or utterance taken in malice or hatred? Is the activity, utterance, or in this case, image, inherently “wrong.”
In this case, I tend to disagree. I do not think this image is inherently racist. I would be very interested if anyone could provide resource(s) documenting the creation, or revival, of this image was for derogatory, racist, or hateful purposes.
Murph
January 9th, 2013
10:02 am
1. Bourn
2. Prado
3. Heyward
4. Upton
5. Freeman
6. Uggla
7. McCann
8. Simmons
vs
1. Simmons
2. Prado
3. Heyward
4. Upton
5. Freeman
6. Uggla
7. McCann
8. Gattis
Personally, I prefer option b. HR power top to bottom. That’s a lineup I wouldn’t want to face if I were an opposing pitcher.
Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
10:02 am
Patrick – I wish that Atlanta had that same fire, that same passion about the Braves. Because if this were Chicago and Wren was pulling this crap, it WOULD NOT fly! Period.
And yet, when was the last time the Cubs won the World Series?
Lemke's Knuckler
January 9th, 2013
10:02 am
All unproven; minimal value at best. Minor league stats are okay but don’t suggest anything spectacular. Not exactly top prospects.
Gattis’ line over the last 2 minor league seasons…
162 games, 98 runs, 192 hits, 44 doubles, 40 homers, 138 RBI, 56 walks, 96 strikeouts, .315 avg, .387 obp, .605 slg, .990 ops
I don’t think your definition of “okay” is the same as mine.
BravePack(FreeFan)
January 9th, 2013
10:03 am
Patrick
Are you kidding me? I live in Chicago and the Bears and Cubs orginzations are a joke. The only reason they finally fired Smith is because they missed the playoffs after starting 7-1. You can thank the Packers for losing that final game against Minnesota or Lovie would still be employed because they made the playoffs. Bears haven’t won anything in almost 30 years and won’t for a while with a QB like Cutler. Cubs are the lovable losers who still fill Wrigley because it’s a outdoor bar disguised as a baseball field. You are way off base if you think Chicago sports have fire…what a joke.
Walker, Texas Ranger
January 9th, 2013
10:03 am
Dave, as a card carrying Native American, I in no way find the logo offensive. The logo depitcs a warrior and not a cartoon like Cleveland had which is offensive. In fact, the logos such as the Braves and FSU are welcomed. Now on an whole different scale is the “Redskins”. If the name of the team were the Blackskins, how long do you think that would last.
Lemke's Knuckler
January 9th, 2013
10:08 am
Now on an whole different scale is the “Redskins”. If the name of the team were the Blackskins, how long do you think that would last.
Or the Yellowskins. I have an Asian brother-in-law, so I’m allowed to say stuff like that. He told me so. Now if I could just get my wife’s other sister to marry a black guy, I can pretty much say whatever I want for the rest of my life.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
10:10 am
The Braves have 3 young hitters (Gattis, Juan Francisco, and Ernesto Mejia) that could show the team brass that they can play.
I’d say the only one out of that three that really has a chance to “prove” anything is Gattis. Francisco has been in the majors. Perhaps not as a full time player, but his abilities up at the top level are not “unknown” as they would be for Gattis and Mejia. And as for Mejia, he is the definition of an older minor leaguer one should not get too hyped up on. He’s been down there for 8 years. He went from the Braves, then Moore brought him to the Royals, and now he’s back to the Braves. He reeks of a AAAA player.
To me Gattis is the only one of interest who might amount to something. Hard to figure that guy due to his 4 year hiatus in the wilderness.
C from Marietta
January 9th, 2013
10:10 am
@ I Had To Say It
It’s JASON Heyward! LOL
Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
10:12 am
Random comment – The RGIII situation is especially interesting in the wake of the Nats’ handling of Strasburg. On one hand, Washington’s baseball team shut down their prize pitcher before the post-season even though he had no apparent physical ailments. On the other hand, their football team allowed the prize QB to play on even though it was obvious he had a knee injury exacerbated by continual play.
Tough situations in which 20/20 hindsight indicates that the teams made the wrong call on both occassions.
bill
January 9th, 2013
10:13 am
DOB I saw Beasts of the Southern Wild and I did not get it but I did not understand where the wild things grow either. Can you explain these two gems to me? I still enjoyed the ride . I am just not sure where we went.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
10:13 am
It’s a public opinion debate [about the Indian]. But something like laches is a common sense rule that developed over centuries of some pretty smart people trying to resolve disputes in a fair way.
old man, hate to say, but pretty smart people are not always guided by reason, fair play, and common sense. I’ve known more than a few people who anyone would say are smart who lack common sense.
And you’re supposing that among the activist or pressure groups, their leaders are good-willed and desirous of a fair and reasonable settlement of their differences (over the Braves’ Indian, in this instance).
I don’t see that. And this is more than public opinion. This is about some people’s opinions being translated into action to deny or make change that most disagree with. Again, these groups are playing by one rule: seek and gain advantage.
If the Braves’ Indian was depicted as drunk, as you seem to think it is, I, like most people, would strongly oppose it’s use. That would, in fact, be derogatory and clearly recognizable to most people as deprecating. But that’s not the case.
We agree to disagree.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
10:15 am
I italicized everything in my 10:13 remarks. Will wonders never cease.
Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
10:15 am
Just when does the PC crowd go too far? Is it the issue involving the Braves’ cap logo? Is it Brent Musberger’s comments? While I think conversation on any topic must be ongoing, there has to be a line somewhere.
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
10:17 am
SHANAHAN gets heat either way. Just like with STRASBURG.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
10:17 am
Tough situations in which 20/20 hindsight indicates that the teams made the wrong call on both occassions.
How do you figure that for the Nats? Especially at this juncture? As I understood it, the move was to prevent future injury and provide longevity. Have you seen the future of Strasburg? If so, how does he do against the NL East over the next few years?
Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
10:21 am
TP -Fair enough, although I believe he could have made a difference against the Cardinals in the NLDS. Do we know exactly what his risk of injury was? Are there any definitive, expert opinions outlining the risk. Making the playoffs is till not a given, although I grant you that the Nats and Strasburg future look bright.
I guess I should wait a few years before making the final 20/20 call with Strasburg.
beekay
January 9th, 2013
10:21 am
Old Man, did you give that Indian logo a breathalyzer? You portraying the Indian to be drunk might say something about your own bias.
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
10:22 am
Cliff:
There are no line Cliff. The sands of our time are shifting.
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
10:23 am
10:21 a.m.bk
Now there’s a post I can relate to…..hic!
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
10:24 am
I do not think this image (Braves’ Indian] is inherently racist. I would be very interested if anyone could provide resource(s) documenting the creation, or revival, of this image was for derogatory, racist, or hateful purposes.
No one can because the imagine isn’t such. It’s there for all to see. Now, in someone’s opinion use of any logo or moniker employing anything related to Indians could be objectionable. Everyone’s entitled to an opinion. But teams and organizations of any sort aren’t required to buckle and act on “some” opinion… or any opinion, though businesses and other organizations (say, nonprofits) are understandably concerned about public sentiment.
Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
10:24 am
Richbrave – I like that “the sands of our time are shifting.” Unless of course, someone is offended by it.
DAP
January 9th, 2013
10:24 am
TOBF No way McCann drives in 90+ runs.
Agreed… not hitting likely at 6-7. Last drove in 90+ in 2009, when he hit cleanup, in 125 starts
why not? 6-7 are good RBI spots.
Yuuup You have 8 million to spend on either a 3B or LF. Stop being cheap, and for once use the f’n money that you have available and go out and get a impact player to push this team to the next level
ok, man. impact player, plays 3B or LF, for $8mil. name that player.
Don
January 9th, 2013
10:25 am
It is a cold hard fact – you usually are not going far in post season when a significant part of what you are counting on as best part of your batting order is palyers who have huge strike ourt totals and do not hit good pitchers.
beekay
January 9th, 2013
10:25 am
Mr. Magot
The logo reminds me of my childhood poster that hung in my room. It reminds me of those awful teams I followed daily. It reminds me of Jeff Burroughs and Bob Horner and Mike Lum etc….if I choose to want to buy a hat with that logo than I will do so. I have 2 native american friends and neither is offended. The only people that I know that run their mouths about this are non-Indians like yourself
Murph
January 9th, 2013
10:27 am
Don’t we find out the HoF results today?
Frank Wren
January 9th, 2013
10:27 am
“Online rumors suggest the Braves have interest in the Nats’ Michael Morse.
With Washington being a division rival, any chance a deal could happen? With the Nats having a deep starting rotation, I don’t know what we could possibly offer them in return. Maybe a 3-way trade with another team?” – Trader Jack
Trader Jack, Michael Morse will not be coming to the Braves. He’s only 30, has power, plays the OF and other positions, and is very affordable. However, he has a .295 career average. We like guys who hit below .250 and strikeout a lot.
Homer the Brave
January 9th, 2013
10:28 am
I completely agree that if Murphy played for the Yankees or Red Sox he would probably do much better in the HOF voting. He was the most dominant power-hitting outfielder in the NL during the 1980s. But he made the mistake of playing for too many last-place Braves teams.
And I think the same can be said for Lee Smith. When Smith retired, he was the leader in career saves with 478. He since has been passed by Trevor Hoffman and Mariano Rivera but still ranks third. Smith reached that number by being exceptionally durable. His 12 straight seasons with at least 60 appearances still represent the longest streak in history by any closer. He’s also still the only reliever in history to post 13 straight seasons of at least 25 saves. And when he retired, his 10 seasons with 30 or more saves also were the most ever. (Hoffman and Rivera have both passed him in that category, too.) But Smith made the mistake of playing for the last place teams like the Cubs and Expos. It is absolutley shocking that Bruce Sutter and Goose Gossage are in the HOF despite barely having 300 saves yet Smith gets ignored. Hopefully the sports writers finally let him in this year.
beekay
January 9th, 2013
10:28 am
Yuup
I agree with you I just don’t want to spend the money, just to spend it. Hopefully we can parlay it into an everyday LF or 3B
Homer the Brave
January 9th, 2013
10:28 am
I completely agree that if Murphy played for the Yankees or Red Sox he would probably do much better in the HOF voting. He was the most dominant power-hitting outfielder in the NL during the 1980s. But he made the mistake of playing for too many last-place Braves teams.
And I think the same can be said for Lee Smith. When Smith retired, he was the leader in career saves with 478. He since has been passed by Trevor Hoffman and Mariano Rivera but still ranks third. Smith reached that number by being exceptionally durable. His 12 straight seasons with at least 60 appearances still represent the longest streak in history by any closer. He’s also still the only reliever in history to post 13 straight seasons of at least 25 saves. And when he retired, his 10 seasons with 30 or more saves also were the most ever. (Hoffman and Rivera have both passed him in that category, too.) But Smith made the mistake of playing for the last place teams like the Cubs and Expos. It is absolutley shocking that Bruce Sutter and Goose Goosage are in the HOF despite barely having 300 saves yet Smith gets ignored. Hopefully the sports writers finally let him in this year.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
10:28 am
ok, man. impact player, plays 3B or LF, for $8mil. name that player.
Giancarlo Stanton. And you still have some funds left over.
sportsmandh
January 9th, 2013
10:30 am
Dark Knight Rises very good movie. Has to be in the top 10 movies of the year.
Not as good as Dark Knight with Ledger but better than Batman Begins.
Macdaddy
January 9th, 2013
10:32 am
I don’t understand why no one is talking about this, http://instagram.com/p/Ty-MfDHJzf/. Clearly the juiciest Braves rumor of the off season.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
10:34 am
My sister-in-law is part Cherokee. The Indian stuff doesn’t bother her or her kin.
But a maggot, well, a particular maggot seems to have objections to the Braves’ Indian logo.
There’s good news for Mr. Maggot, though. According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary (online), a maggot is:
a soft-bodied legless grub that is the larva of a dipterous insect (as the housefly)
See, Mr. Maggot, one day you’ll actually become something.
DAP
January 9th, 2013
10:35 am
old man Those who would object to the Tomahawk are barred by laches. Those who object to the crazy/drunk/screaming Injun are not.
i like that explanation, but im wondering…how have i been buying apparel with the “screaming savage” on it for the past 5 years or so? i have several items (hats, shirts, ect.) that i have bought in the last 5 years that feature the screaming savage. i havent heard these complaints at all over the last 5 years.
now, the braves might put it on a batting practice cap, and folks start making noise. where were they the last 5 years? they are barred by laches.
TennesseePaul
January 9th, 2013
10:35 am
As it turned out, I sent my 2013 Hall of Fame ballot in blank. This wasn’t science. It wasn’t a clever attack in the three-front culture war among the players, the SABR s and the BBWAAs. It wasn’t a protest, either. It was just one voter’s inability to reach a comfortable verdict on a colossal mess that for years no one wanted to take responsibility for and that isn’t going to get any less complicated as time goes on.
The voters were handed a basket of rotten vegetables called the steroid era by the players, the Hall of Fame and Major League Baseball, and told to make a chef’s salad.
–Howard Bryant
I find this point of view to be childish. Bryant lists players, the hall of fame and MLB as the parties making his life as a BBWAA member hard. This pass the buck attitude sweeping across America is getting old. Bryant himself and the BBWAA are also culpable in this sordid affair. Being party to making the mess should also mean being party to cleaning up the mess. A blank ballot with his reasoning backing it, is akin to throwing a fit or a temper tantrum. Pretty childish.
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
10:36 am
Trader Jack, Michael Morse will not be coming to the Braves. He’s only 30, has power, plays the OF and other positions, and is very affordable. However, he has a .295 career average. We like guys who hit below .250 and strikeout a lot.
Yes, there’s something to that, I grant. But Morse ain’t coming to the Braves because two divisional rivals aren’t apt to want to help each other meet needs.
Hugo Z Hackenbush
January 9th, 2013
10:37 am
In other exciting pc news…
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv-movies/django-unchained-action-figures-sparks-boycott-article-1.1235938
and this:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/s-mexican-restaurant-fire-racist-shirts-article-1.1236221
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
10:38 am
“…..Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
10:24 am
Richbrave – I like that “the sands of our time are shifting.” Unless of course, someone is offended by it…….”
So those who are offended are “shift-less?”
Cliff Fiscal
January 9th, 2013
10:40 am
I have to admit, I do not like the logo because it does remind me of those losing Braves’ teams in the 70s and 80s. I hope the logo does not portend a return to such futility.
richbrave
January 9th, 2013
10:41 am
Jeff R
January 9th, 2013
10:36 am
Trader Jack, Michael Morse will not be coming to the Braves. He’s only 30, has power, plays the OF and other positions, and is very affordable. However, he has a .295 career average. We like guys who hit below .250 and strikeout a lot.
“…..Yes, there’s something to that, I grant. But Morse ain’t coming to the Braves because two divisional rivals aren’t apt to want to help each other meet needs……”
All true, and to your point Jeff R, agreed just as I said last night. Only way i could see it is by subterfuge, a three-way deal that’s silent on the back end.