4:03 pm December 4, 2012, by David O'Brien
December 6th, 20125:50 pm
“Wren always leaves himself some flexibility to make moves during the season and at the deadline…”
And I was naive enough to think we could still add players before the beginning of spring training and/or the season. Guess the end of the winter meetings is the end of player transactions for a while…
December 6th, 20125:53 pm
I remember reading a quote from a GM several years ago that basically said when you are negotiating with the Braves you almost always lose. That was when JS was running things. Frank is a protege of that style and I think he has shown great restraint not to overpay just to say he made a deal.
December 6th, 20125:54 pm
Of course we could’ve NOT signed McCann and offered Hamilton 3 years at 22 million and KEPT all of our pitchers.
December 6th, 20125:55 pm
“$19mil for his 1st half, $1mil for his second half….”
Fine with me. His play in the first half got us to the playoffs and we won…what? 94 games?
What the …!! I feel like people are giving up on the notion of Wren acquiring a LF in the next couple of weeks. Is it folly for me to think that the Braves could still acquire someone like Choo in the near future?
December 6th, 20125:56 pm
Not really how things work, but ok.
December 6th, 20125:58 pm
Phillies did well in getting Revere.
They gave up Worley who was not that good last yr 6-9, 4.20 and a 1.5 WHIP, high hits per IP and Travor May who was knocked around badly in AA after formerly being a top fligit prospect. And he is 24.
Either Wren does not want to give up our guys at all or they are not as good as we would like them to be.
Revere is a young Juan Pierre with better defense or/a young Bourn with better offense at a similar stage in his career.
Phillies win in this one.
It might be a blessing — we might need these kids down the line. Hey, we will need relpacements for Hudson and Malhom in case they walk next yr.
Those kids might be really good by ‘15 or so, never know.
And I am glad Wren never considered moving Simmons.
I do not feel so bad now that they did sign Johnson. All is not lost.
Some of the best deals you make are the ones you do not make.
December 6th, 20126:00 pm
I agree with that chipl1960. The talent is there as they are right now to make a playoff run and go for 92-95 wins and a WS. ITs doable
December 6th, 20126:01 pm
“Not really how things work, but ok”
Sure they do. You gotta win games in the first half and the second half. Doesn’t really matter when players produce as long as they add value and wins through out the season. Braves suffer from this idea that we need to win games in the 2nd half and we need to get someone at the trade deadline. Sure a minor move is fine, but having an impact player from March is a lot better than having an impact player from July or August.
We need a LF from day one of Spring Training.
December 6th, 20126:03 pm
“The talent is there as they are right now to make a playoff run and go for 92-95 wins and a WS”
Disagree. Maybe after they sign a LF you could make that claim, but they really need another high caliber player. They lost two impact guys in Chipper and Bourn and are gonna be without McCann for a while.
December 6th, 20126:05 pm
Kept what pitchers? Hanson and Jurrjens? And how could we offer Hamilton that much if we had to go out and buy another catcher, too?
As well as paying for Hanson and Jurrjens.
This is interesting:
So, the entire system used by the league for awarding exclusive TV rights to teams is a violation of antitrust law, as of yesterday. Perhaps the TV contracts entered into by each team as part of that system also go by the wayside–including the crappy deal we have. Maybe MLB uses this opportunity to settle the lawsuit (which it looks like they have pretty much lost at this point anyway) and create some revenue balance for the teams. This decision could be a win for teams like ATL, and a loss for teams like LA.
The theory is that if MLB granted TV rights to ATL under a system which is illegal, then in its TV contract ATL sold something which it never owned in the first place. And if you sell something to me which you don’t own, well I don’t own anything except an empty bag.
Hard to say at this point how it will play out, but one can hope.
December 6th, 20126:07 pm
Any word on the 4 or 5 team mega deal? Is it officially dead?
December 6th, 20126:11 pm
I wonder if Bourn is thinking twice about declining the braves qualifying offer
December 6th, 20126:12 pm
Apparently the Royals are wanting to acquire a #1 pitcher for not much more than Myers. A few weeks ago I was saying the asking price they have for Myers and others are absurd. Timmy on baseball tonight reported the Royals feel if they give up Myers and another prospect for James Shields, its too much. This is the type of mentality that has been facing Wren.
December 6th, 20126:13 pm
Chipper Jones was my favorite player for years. He is a legitmate first ballot HOFer. But let’s get real about what we need to replace him. He hit .287 – good but hardly elite. He had a good OBP, good OPS, but hit 14 HR which we already replaced (and Bourn’s) with Upton. Chipper also missed 50 games and played a hardly more than fair defense, which with either Prado or Francisco out there this year, should improve, especially with Simmons range at short out there for a full season.
He’ll be missed for sure – primarily in the clubhouse – but he’s not irreplaceable.
December 6th, 20126:16 pm
Ken Rosenthal @Ken_Rosenthal
Sources: Greinke talks reaching critical stage. #Dodgers considering pulling out and moving on to other pursuits.
December 6th, 20126:18 pm
Chipper had the best on base and OPS for the Braves last year. And while he did miss 50 games, he was a major impact player and won quite a few games single-handedly with his bat. Braves have not yet replaced his production even if its 110 games of production. BJ Upton isn’t gonna put up that kind of production. Maybe in a few counting stats, but not averages. And his defense is below average in CF.
December 6th, 20126:20 pm
I;m sorry MFi04 – But missing 50 games was huge (not that Chipper had any other option) and the lack of defense was also huge. Like I said – he’ll be missed but is not irreplaceable.
The A Bomb
December 6th, 20126:23 pm
Wren is to GM as Boras is to agents.
Bourn should ax Boras, re-sign with the Braves and go for a championship. Where would his stock be then?
Enough of the difficulty of replacing CJ. Echo the Hall comments but moving on from him not a issue at all. Reality is that the team probably would be in better position if he walked away in Houston in 2010. Chipper will be celebrated in 5 years and will be a great day, now is a great time for him to be away.
December 6th, 20126:25 pm
with all the money being thrown around. Willingham’s 7 mil contract is an absolute steal. Twins should ask for a ton
December 6th, 20126:26 pm
Sure Chipper missing games was huge. But would you like to look at total value while playing in games?
Chipper Jones WAR 3.0
Michael Bourn WAR 6.4
Martin Prado WAR 5.9
Bj Upton WAR 3.3
Braves gotta replace 8.9 of value
They’ve got about 5.6 of value left to go.
December 6th, 20126:27 pm
Not too many fans or GM’s are huge Boras fans. Players on the other hand, you got to love him. If you were a player, wouldn’t you like to have Boras as your agent?
December 6th, 20126:31 pm
Be nice if the Braves actually played their games on c0omputers. Doesn’t always go the way of WAR in real life.
Later. Got called to dinner.
December 6th, 20126:33 pm
OFFICIAL: @Twins sign RHP Jared Burton to 2-year, $5.5 million extension with $3.6 million club option for 2015.
December 6th, 20126:42 pm
BJ Upton is only about 40% of the equation. Still need another 60% of the production out of a LF.
December 6th, 20126:43 pm
Lemke’s Knuckler, you gave up so easily.. I was readying my body armor.
December 6th, 20126:46 pm
gotta hope Gattis keeps pounding and has a great ST and earns NL ROY consideration
December 6th, 20126:48 pm
I’m not an attorney, but keep in mind that MLB is not subject to antitrust laws. In 1922, the U S Supreme Court ruled that baseball did not count as interstate commerce, and thus is not subject to antitrust laws.
This same court refuses to hear any further cases regarding this matter, saying only Congress can make a change.
Who knows how far it goes, it may die on the vine, like previous cases, r
December 6th, 20126:49 pm
or they may modify
Damn server error
December 6th, 20126:52 pm
No kickoffs?. Then it is no longer football.
If MLB did make changes it would not affect the RSN’s – only the distribution of programming
Rest assured. MLB will fight back.
I got a quick fix…. Offer Bourn a 1 year contract for the same money he made last season. Then he can re enter Free Agency next winter. That solves the problem for the Braves and at least Bourn won’t end up taking less money somewhere he doesn’t want to play.
December 6th, 20126:53 pm
December 6th, 2012
gotta hope Gattis keeps pounding and has a great ST and earns NL ROY consideration
December 6th, 20126:58 pm
As far as giving up on the Braves acquisitions….Heck Yes I have! Just look at his track record. From his days with the Marlins til now. Shuerholz was better at GM than Wren and that really isn’t saying much. If you think of all the young talent that came through with Bobby Cox, well he acquired them while he was GM before Shueholz. Honestly, I wish Bobby Cox would take over as GM.
December 6th, 20126:59 pm
y’all are not giving Boras enough credit. Push comes to shove he can afford to buy a team just to give Bourn a big contract….
December 6th, 20127:02 pm
The Braves had their Winter Meeting moves pre Winter Meetings. They acquire Upton a week before. They trade Hanson for Walden a few days later and signed Reed Johnson today. He can’t make a move everyday. Heck most GM’s didn’t make a move at all while at the Meetings. Still have over 2 months before players report.
December 6th, 20127:05 pm
Some GM is out there salivating at the opportunity of overpaying Bourn for 5 or 6 years
December 6th, 20127:09 pm
I am an attorney, but not an anti-trust specialist. I have to suspect that the judge was ruling that the anti-trust exemption does not extend to the entire TV rights arena. It applies to the relationships with the players for sure, and the absence of competitive leagues. For example, I don’t think MLB could take over every aspect of MLB marketing, open their own stores, only allow there trademarked material to be sold in their stores, etc. I don’t think they can limit all baseball TV to the MLB Network, even though they might want to. There are limits to the exemption, and I am guessing the judge was basing the ruling on this. I’ll make a wild guess and say that this was not a major issue between the parties. If I have time, I’ll read the decision (53 pages) and report back.
December 6th, 20127:10 pm
What’s an RSN?
December 6th, 20127:13 pm
Braves re-sign Reed Johnson, but leave Meetings without big moves
December 6th, 20127:15 pm
So, Wren went into the meetings by announcing he was seeking a premium player, had money to spend to help others with salary dumps, etc. He then put his hooks in the water. Tehran for Gordon. Spruill for Choo. Tehran, Francisco, and Graham for Justin. (These are just guesses of course). Then he sat back and did nothing. Nobody bit.
Really, that’s not a bad strategy.
P’cola— Absolutely right.
December 6th, 20127:17 pm
It applies to the relationships with the players for sure, and the absence of competitive leagues.
my understanding is that you are mistaken. Anti-trust only applies to interstate commerce and they have been ruled as not that and the courts have refused to reconsider it. course i ain’t perry mason….
Braves fan in queens
December 6th, 20127:24 pm
Is there any verbal agreement that Upton will play in CF?
bet our opening day lineup has Schafer leading off. lol
December 6th, 20127:26 pm
Wren has stated several times that they signed BJ to play center. Wouldn’t have wooed him away from Philly by demanding that he change position
December 6th, 20127:29 pm
If the braves could get Bourn to sign the 1 year deal we would have to be a favorite to go deep in the playoffs.
Rotation : Medlen, Hudson, minor, maholm, Teheran/Delgado with Beachy returning midseason
The only sort of issue the Braves have is too many pitchers– and that might work out anyway, because Maholm won’t be with the Braves after 2013. They *could* trade Delgado (hope not) or Teheran (preferable) for a top-flight position player prospect but they don’t have to.
December 6th, 20127:33 pm
I’m actually okay as-is. I sure don’t want the Braves to sell the farm for the likes of Fowler or Willingham at this point. Reed Johnson in RF with platoons of Francisco/Prado works just fine. (Prado playing every day).
Lew I was saying keep Delgado and Tehran. As for going out to get another catcher we already had to, and did.
haha “wooood him” i think the 15 1/4 million took care of any wooing.
there are so many avenues the braves can take here. Its going to be a interesting winter, watching the braves sort out there line up. bourn pursue more money. and find out whatever the rangers are trying to do.
December 6th, 20127:37 pm
The braves could always keep Teheran and Delgado in the majors. One starts the other a RP. They could even make sure they each get some starts
December 6th, 20127:39 pm
If we could get Yelich from the Marlins for one of our young pitchers like Teheran or Delgado I will do it. One of the best lefty swings since chipper. Good speed. Perfect for LF
December 6th, 20127:45 pm
I just think with money Wren has to work with plus the young pitching, we’ll be adding a everyday LFer. We don’t budge on David Ross and go a cheaper route, we trade Hanson saving us another 3 million, spend 75 million on BJ Upton. It really seems like Wren will get something done.
Also while it drives me nuts reading that he thinks were in good shape even with in-house options, When you actually watch and hear him say it, its not that bad. I just hope we don’t end up settling with em is all.
Juan Francisco and Reed Johnson, with Evan Gattis looming in AAA likely as our players likely to get playing time opposite of where Prado plays.
December 6th, 20127:49 pm
Seriously, is somebody like Shin Soo-Choo really all that much better than that platoon concept combo of Reed Johnson / Francisco? And all those guys, platooners as well, are likely to be gone after 2013.
December 6th, 20127:50 pm
Sorry, meant LF in that post up there for Reed.
December 6th, 20127:51 pm
Here’s hoping, btw, that Gattis turns out to be like Big Papi or something.
December 6th, 20127:52 pm
Also while it drives me nuts reading that he thinks were in good shape even with in-house options, When you actually watch and hear him say it, its not that bad.
I’m sort of hoping he is not stinking to just looking at players with multiple years of control. Whille I understand that there is potential to have to be looking for a C, 3B and LF next offseason, they should be looking for the best fit possible in LF and I think that’s Choo. We’ll see….
December 6th, 20127:53 pm
RSN = Regional Sports Network
I think a 3 way trade is the way to find the best match.
December 6th, 20127:54 pm
Seriously, is somebody like Shin Soo-Choo really all that much better than that platoon concept combo of Reed Johnson / Francisco?
you gotta be kidding right? there is no comparison
December 6th, 20127:55 pm
Nolie you were correct nothing big coming of Winter meetings ..I like the R.Johnson signing he can be part of the LF /3B platoon ..
December 6th, 20127:58 pm
I had been pushing for the to sign Reed at the trade deadline for a number of years. They finally did and I am glad they re-signed hi. Now he just has to pick it back up a bit over what he did here last season
December 6th, 20128:00 pm
Nolie my guess its a platoon in LF , plus Cunningham or Gattis might shine bright in ST..We cant over pay just to get a LF .Now we got less the money that it took to sign Johnson so we probably got 7.5 mil from the 10 mil left..
December 6th, 20128:03 pm
Winter Meeting WIU grades:
Want —————> B-
Intensity ————————-> D
Urgency ———————-> D-
see ya later Go Braves …sign Durbin too
Wren took care of his only pitching need and created some financial flexibility by trading Tommy Hanson to the Angels for hard-throwing reliever Jordan Walden last week. – Mark Bowman
Sure hope it’s put to use.
“It seems a lot of other teams are in the same boat we’re in. They feel like they have had productive conversations. But the folks who are holding on to those players have a lot to weigh.” — Wren
Like half of baseball seems to be in that spot. Should be a fun couple weeks. Greinke/Hamilton signing will start the process.
Ain’t kidding, Nolie. I looked at the numbers before I posted that.
December 6th, 20128:05 pm
I’m sure that trade prices will drop a little here soon. Here are our trade options.
SH Dexter Fowler, 26 years old, 3 years of control, Salary ARB1, around 4 million
LH Shin Soo Choo, 30 years old, 1 year rental, Salary around 7 million
LH Jacoby Ellsbury, 29 years old, 1 year rental, Salary around 8 million
SH Omelio Bonifacio, 27 years old, 2 years of control, Salary around 3 million
LH Curtis Granderson, 31 years old, 1 year rental, Salary 15 million
RH Josh Willingham, 34 years old, 2 years of control, Salary 7 million
LH Brett Gardner, 29 years old, 2 years of control, Salary 3 million
LH Alex Gordon, 28 years old, 4 years of control, Salary 9 million
LH Jason Kubel, 30 years old, 2 years of control, Salary 7.5 million
LH David DeJesus, 32 years old, 2 years of control, Salary 4.25 million
RH Alfonso Soriano, 36 years old, 2 years of control, Salary 18 million
I been saying all along that I didn’t think they would get two good starters and I still do not think they will. I woild love to be wrong though. Choo for instance would be awesome at leadoff. But no what so many here whine about, Wren is pretty good about not overpaying, so I’m thinking a platoon looks imminent
December 6th, 20128:06 pm
Pull a stunner sign Hamilton for three years in LF.
December 6th, 20128:07 pm
Shin Soo Choo is a guy who can provide a 380 OBP, 40 doubles, 20 homers, and 20 steals.
then you looked at the wrong numbers. Choo is an OBP machine, all those guys you talk about make outs like they mean nothing.
December 6th, 20128:08 pm
nolie, there’s a comparison.
And you know I like Francisco more than most on this blog. But Choo is way better, enough to easily justify paying him his 2013 arb, plus keeping Francisco and Johnson around, maybe for 2014, God forbid.
Throwing players like Francisco and Gattis into a trade, along with a pitcher, makes sense for a longer term LF solution–Upton, Gordon, Myers. Because with Prado and your new shiny LFer, you don’t need those two guys for years and years.
If we are stuck with Francisco/Gattis/Johnson/whoever in a platoon situation, it will be interesting to see how we do with it. Kind of like taking a cross country trip in a 64 chevy malibu SS convertible. It would be a blast, and really cool if it actually got you where you were going–what a great story to tell your kids and grandkids. But if you had a choice up front, you’d take a new Caddy.
Seriously, is somebody like Shin Soo-Choo really all that much better than that platoon concept combo of Reed Johnson / Francisco?
Ya know, there’s some value in having an above average corner outfielder for 2013….even if it’s just a year. He’s a great player.
December 6th, 20128:10 pm
If they were going to sign Hamilton (which I was a fan of), they wouldn’t have signed BJ. No chance of that now.
comparing what Choo would produce to what a combo of Francisco and Constanza would produce and claiming they would be similar is about as wrong as it can get
December 6th, 20128:13 pm
If Wren is gonna overpay, this should be the offseason. We already dished out the biggest contract in our history, so lets give up a little more than we’d like to bring in Choo, and that really makes us dangerous. It will be worth it if we can atleast make it to the NLCS
December 6th, 20128:14 pm
I do not think there was ever any chance that the Braves would sign Hamilton
December 6th, 20128:15 pm
Since Fredi in all of his wisdon said three years in AAA is not good for pitchers then trade them.
December 6th, 20128:16 pm
In terms of trades. In terms of free agent signings, we’ll need to see if Upton ratchets up his game. otherwise, Wren paid a lot of money for potential unrealized.
December 6th, 20128:17 pm
Half Empty: Not Constanza. Reed/Franciso/Prado (with Prado every day). That would about equal Choo. No joke. If there’s an impact move to be made, I want to see something else.
Coach (2012 Fredi's Beisbol Fandango)
December 6th, 20128:19 pm
We have a left fielder……His name is D-A-N U-G-G-L-A.
No really, I love the guy. Uggla is tough, gritty, professional and yes he will rebound in 2013. But NO, I can’t tolerate average defenders in the middle of the diamond. We have stellar gloves at SS, in CF, RF and 1st base base. Prado will be more than good enough at 3rd, while Laird’s a solid catch and throw man behind McCann. Ditto for Pagnozzi.
That said, I can only hope the Blue Jays are considering trading Emilio Bonifacio. Dude can run, play six positions, switch hit, fix the kitchen sink, etc. He could be what Omar Infante was in Atlanta.
As it is, we have no proven lead off guy, our bench DOES need more work and of course…….Dan Uggla still hasn’t moved to LEFT FIELD.
I’d wager that Prado, not Francisco, is the Braves’ opening day third baseman. Wren will land a capable left-fielder well before the season starts.
December 6th, 20128:23 pm
We all know Upton is gonna strikeout a ton and possibly produce a low OBP, but lets look at the positives… I think he’ll be good for 25-30 HR and 30-40 SB regardless of his batting line. Lets also take into account the lineups he’s played in over his career, not nearly as deep as the Braves. Also a change of scenery. While he might never get back to a 380 OBP type guy, he still can improve and be better than he’s been the past 4 years.
Uggla is tough, gritty, professional and yes he will rebound in 2013. But NO, I can’t tolerate average defenders in the middle of the diamond.
And Danny strikes out a little less and walks twice as much as the Braves’ new wunderkind, B.J. Upton . Upton might be a better defender in center-field than Danny is at second. But while Upton has a cannon for an arm, he’s not as good at getting to the ball as former Brave, Michael Bourn.
Oh, well, nothing’s perfect.
December 6th, 20128:24 pm
Anyone know how much Reed Johnson was paid?
December 6th, 20128:25 pm
Buster_ESPN Buster Olney
Agent points out as a factor in Greinke talks:Because of taxes, LAD would have to offer about $180m just to match a $150m-ish offer from TEX
December 6th, 20128:26 pm
We need to see Upton cut down on his strikeouts and up his on-base percentage. He can do it, I think. The Braves really don’t need another streaky hitter in the lineup.
Haven’t been able to find it yet, I’m thinking around 2 million
December 6th, 20128:28 pm
Interesting observation, because California has gone tax-happy. There’s no state income tax in the Lone Star State. I want to live there one day.
December 6th, 20128:29 pm
I was in a good mood until this sorry website ate my post.
SWEET JESUS SAVE ME FROM THE AJC IT DEPARTMENT!
December 6th, 20128:31 pm
I think He heard you.
Wonder if we could talk the Yankees into eating around 5-6 million of Granderson’s salary? I mean he isn’t the leadoff man we seek, but he’d easily make our lineup the NL’s most powerful lineup lol
December 6th, 20128:35 pm
I’m still hoping for a surprise move for a LF, but if the market collapses for Bourn, I would love to see him back for at least a year. Upton, Bourn and Heyward sounds like a pretty amazing outfield to me.
December 6th, 20128:36 pm
Fire someone for winter meetings failure!!
December 6th, 20128:37 pm
I think there is a better shot of the Braves landing Justin Upton than to have Michael Bourn return. How about a 5% chance we land Upton and a 0.50% we bring back Bourn lol
December 6th, 20128:39 pm
The market for Bourn should collapse….
He was awful the final two months.
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